Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive963

Violation?

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Is this a violation of this? Tiderolls 16:03, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

That it is. EEng 16:21, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, and there have been several recent crystal-clear warnings that this type of post is a violation. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:26, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Blocked one week by User:Ivanvector. — fortunavelut luna 16:29, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• Well I was pretty blunt so I cant see how they do not know that is a violation. Albeit of the griping category. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:59, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

If not for Only in death's warning I might have let this go, we do allow some leeway for users to adjust to their community-imposed restrictions. But with the plainly-worded warning there's really no way that I can see that they weren't aware that the edit would definitely be in violation of the restriction. This wasn't just testing the limits of the ban, it was repeating almost exactly the sort of edit (objecting to "de-Americanizing" a biography) which led to the ban discussion in the first place. Easy and necessary block, in my opinion. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:10, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks to everyone offering an opinion. My take was that the warnings were adequately explicit; I was a bit stunned to see Light show's post. I thought it was possible I was overlooking something obvious. Regards, Tiderolls 17:32, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
• Wow. Drmies (talk) 02:34, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

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96.240.96.130

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Someone please block this IP 96.240.96.130 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), please, at least for a week or two (I would bring it to AIV but this is a rush ask); all of their edits since the 4th have been vandalism/unsourced television show and network vandalism, and they're using the 'multiple edits to muddle quick rollbacks' strategy to get their edits to stick. Just discovered tonight and how they haven't gotten well past their last warning is incredible to me. Nate • (chatter) 02:30, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

You can use Twinkle or rollback to easily revert multiple edits. There haven't been any edits in the past few hours, so I posted a level 3 warning. I'll try to remember to keep an eye on the IP's edits. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:22, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

• Due to recent disruptive editing and the long-term nature of the issue, I've blocked this IP address for 1 month using {{anonblock}}. Mz7 (talk) 01:37, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

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NLT

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Resolved

There's plenty of disruption around this for anyone who wants to dig into it, but this is a pretty clear cut legal threat. So...just seems easier that way. TimothyJosephWood 17:13, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

This editor seems to have a history of making legal threats. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:17, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Blocked. Enough editors have tried to help and all they do is offer to settle things in court. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:28, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

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User:Zbunyip

User:Zbunyip has been involved in many disruptive edits on Adelaide Park Lands (and subsequesntly other pages), and despite attempts to engage them on User talk:Zbunyip, they have refused to respond, and seem to have engaged in edit warring. Their modus operandi is to replace content that was supported by reliable references with their own biased POV that is contrary to the statements that were there, and they do NOT supply any reliable references to support their own opposite POV. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Zbunyip for the trail of havoc they are creating. I would revert their edits, but don't want to be involved in, (or classified as being involved in), an edit war. The inaccuracies and falsehoods they have been introducing worry me. Advice please. Pdfpdf (talk) 09:49, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree that many of this editor's edits are problematic. I haven't looked at them all in detail, but they have included removal of sourced material with refs and addition of unsourced material without refs. In particular I've had to revert his changes to Tjilbruke (see diff 1) because he substituted the name of one Aboriginal tribe with another, and another editor has just reverted his multiple edits to Kaurna (see diff 2). He has also edited articles on other Aboriginal tribes, the Ngarrindjeri (see diff 3, and the Ramindjeri (also since deleted by another user, see diff 4).

This is a controversial subject area, requiring specialised knowledge of the sources, and I'm not particularly well qualified to go into this very deeply - but it seems that this editor is taking a partisan stance (particularly in the Kaurna/Ramindjeri dispute), and his edits in these particular articles (as well as in other areas), which commenced on 19 August 2017, are similar to those previously made by Mifren, who last edited on 1 August 2017. Bahudhara (talk) 16:13, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Zbunyip's writing style doesn't remind me of Mifren, despite the thematic similarity of their contributions - I'd be quite surprised if this is a case of sockpuppetry. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 10:39, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, now having seen more of his work, I agree, the styles are very different. And he is now reaching out for advice at the Teahouse and user talkpages. Bahudhara (talk) 14:49, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

User:Lankandude2017

Lankandude2017 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has recently been adding original research (in the form of material from sources that don't discuss the article subject) to articles including British Sri Lankan Tamil. This has been discussed at Talk:British Sri Lankan Tamil (and Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#British Sri Lankan Tamil article), but Lankandude2017 continues to revert to his preferred version of the article, against talk page consensus. This has already resulted in one block for editing warring, and Lankandude2017 has now returned from that block to continue the same behaviour. He has also been warned for accusing me of racism, as discussed at User talk:Lankandude2017#Accusation of racism and in the couple of sections below. I have generally been trying not to rise to this, as it is clear that several other editors are keeping an eye on the situation, but he has now signed a talk page post as me, which is getting pretty disruptive. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:02, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

And now Lankandude is adding frivolous/malicious AIV reports against Cordless Larry and myself. --bonadea contributions talk 15:09, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

...and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bonadea (with no evidence of sockpuppetry). Cordless Larry (talk) 15:13, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

SPI page deleted (by me), and Lankandude blocked for a week (by Alex Shih). --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:25, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

With respect to the admins already handling this, this is hallmark behaviour of a particular sockmaster, and I've re-blocked accordingly. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:35, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

user:Emanuel argento disruptive edits

I'm not an expert of such situations, I don't know exactly where to ask for help and I apologize in advance if this is not the proper place to make such requests.

The new user Emanuel argento is erasing content on the article Cassata. Nothing big, honestly, but the problem is that he neither gives substantial arguments, nor shows sources. He didn't stop even when I provided sources to motivate the presence of such content on that page. He kept reverting my fixes, erased the source I provided and trolled me on the edit summary. Today I found out that he erased again my edit. At this point I don't know what to do.

While he has never been warned before on en.wikipedia, I found out that he accumulated a lot of controversy on it.wikipedia, as you can see here (Sorry for linking a page in a foreign language, but I think it is necessary. A web translator may help). Despite admins and reviewers gave him several suggestions, advice and warnings to stop his damaging edits, he ignored everything and everyone. He was also notified with a "block" warning (sorry, I don't know how this procedure is called on en.wikipedia) after several admins and reviewers reverted 84 edits by him in 2 weeks (!). In his defense, he said he doesn't want to be annoyed by admins, because what he say is true (!!). That's how collaborative this guy is.

In the last weeks I reverted other odd edits by him (for example, here), so I suppose he is probably giving the same, bad contribution here on en.wikipedia. That's why I showed you his it.wikipedia talk page.

I just read on the guidelines that, in order to solve an edit war (like the one occured on the cassata article), a discussion on an article's talk page is the best thing to do, but in this specific case I think it'd be useless (he doesn't listen to admins, why should he listen a regular user? He's completely uncollaborative).

On a side note, I noticed he seldom motivates his edits, but when he do, he writes in Italian. I think this is not completely fair and constructive to the community (I can understand him since I'm Italian, but what about other non Italian-speaking editors?).

That said, I kindly ask an admin to keep an eye on Emanuel argento's diruptive behavior on en.wikipedia. I also ask that some admin could help me to restore all the legit content he erased from the cassata article.

Thank you in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simostar (talk • contribs) 17:27, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• Proposing topic ban for all articles related to Palermitan cakes or confections, narrowly construdeled. EEng 19:17, 22 August 2017 (UTC) Seriously, can we change the header on this page to read This page is for reporting and discussing urgent or chronic matters incidents on the English Wikipedia that require the intervention of administrators and experienced editors? Not that anyone would read it anyway. But really – an argument over whether a cake does or does not have chocolate in it [2] is an ANI matter? On the other hand, there seems to be a pattern here [3] so maybe we should take this to Arbcom.

• "Tastes great!" "Less filling!" "Tastes great!!" "Less filling!!" Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:32, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• Great rate! Less billing! EEng 21:15, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Vandalism always looks so much more artistic in Italiano doesn't it? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:27, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Personal attacks and disruption by Etherialemperor

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The edit that spurred this report is here where Etherialemperor calls me a "fag".

This coolness after disruption on Richard Spencer where Etherialemperor repeatedly changed "supremacist" to "nationalist" for the entry on Richard B. Spencer, despite the lead sentence of that BLP calling him a white supremacist. Etherialemperor tried to edit the BLP despite the HTML comment warning against such a change to the lead. Additionally, editors who reverted Etherialemperor where called editing in "bad faith" (WP:NPA) for disagreeing. This user's POV and apparent dislike of certain types of people is affecting their editing and causing disruption. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:48, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Blocked 48 hours for the personal attack, given there's no doubt it was meant as such. There are other issues here, but initially I'd like to see how they act once their block expires -- There'sNoTime ^{(to explain)} 07:55, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

NB. edit referenced above has been revision deleted -- There'sNoTime ^{(to explain)} 07:56, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your swift response! EvergreenFir (talk) 07:57, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

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Editwarring (would report to 3RR, but i'm involved)

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User:Stuffedturkey seems to be on a crusade about Gap Inc. and seems to be operating under the impression (s)he can make up their own rules. They have been editwarring againnst several editors, removing sourced content and (apparently) not accepting archive.is as a substitute.

• Nope, this is getting nipped in the bud. There will be only one accepted archiving platform.
• I can do this all day, lad... (I'm a lass, but never mind that)
• This is an extremely strong claim in every regard. I refuse to let you contribute it with such flimsy evidence.
• Nope, I'm fine with this. I will not allow such low quality sources be the only citation needed for a claim of what would be nearly universally panned.

I have tried several times to appeal to this users reason, but to no avail. This response to a formal 3RR warning was the straw than broke the camels back. The user in question is either incapable or unwilling to cooperate. Kleuske (talk) 23:39, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

While you were posting this, I was in the process of blocking Stuffedturkey for an absolutely clear-cut case of Righting Great Wrongs edit-warring. I've only made it 24 hours in the hope that it will serves as enough of a shock to jolt ST into becoming a productive editor. Since ST appears to be a single-purpose account dedicated purely to edit-warring on this issue, if it starts again when the block expires the next block will be indefinite. ‑ Iridescent 23:46, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I saw that. Thanks. But I think the issues are deeper than just editwarring. Maybe they learn. Kleuske (talk) 23:48, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

My thanks as well. Would it be appropriate to revert Stuffedturkey's last edit, or should it be left alone? NewEnglandYankee (talk) 23:49, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll leave that to people who know about the topic to decide—I neither know nor care whether ST is correct, just that they're refusing to comply with Wikipedia's rules despite having them repeatedly explained. ‑ Iridescent 23:51, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I took the risk and reverted per WP:IAR despite it being my 4th revert. If they return, they can make their case on the talk-page. It may even be a good case. Kleuske (talk) 23:54, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

A WP:DUCK (User:2600:100f:b116:5d10:5bc7:9354:8e21:1f40) just showed up. Can Iridescent oblige once more? Thanks. Kleuske (talk) 23:56, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Since they only appear to have a single interest, I've just semi'd the page until they get bored rather than waste my time playing whack-a-mole with the socks. ‑ Iridescent 23:58, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

That should do the trick. Thanks. Kleuske (talk) 23:59, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

 Comment: I expect we haven't seen the end of this. See Special:Diff/796937853. —Guanaco 00:00, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Sure, but since they only appear to have a single interest the socks should be easy enough to spot. I assume this is a particularly inept PR department, as a 15-year-old dispute over labor conditions is unlikely to be a topic that would attract much interest from the general public. ‑ Iridescent 00:05, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Incidentally, ST's original claim, that sources don't exist for the "forced abortions in Saipan" story, is manifestly false, as a five second search on gap saipan abortion demonstrates. ‑ Iridescent 00:08, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

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The Oklahoma Vandal returns

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This time he's at 50.96.158.181. KFOR-TV: [4] [5] [6] List of programs broadcast by MeTV: [7] Mvcg66b3r (talk) 23:43, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Please do not forget to notify the reported user. Tornado chaser (talk) 00:19, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

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Disruptive editing still persists in Zapad 2017 exercise

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Although User:Vladimir serg has been indefinitely blocked by Malinaccier for disruptive editing, similar massive deletions continue, probably by a sock — User:Pravdorub1986 ([8]), in Zapad 2017 exercise. As I already suggested, the best option would be to semi-block the article. The issue may be way more serious than somebody being just stroppy.Axxxion (talk) 20:30, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

The level of possible disruption on this article isn't nearly high enough to warrant protection of this article right now. Report the individual users for violations of policies if it gets to that level - if you think these accounts are sock puppets, file an SPI. If the disruption is repeated and vandalism, report it to AIV. If the users edit war, report it at AN3. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:03, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Oshwah: You would do well to have another look: multiple massive deletions have occurred just within the last few hours: [9]. Also, when looking at the edit history, analyse actual timing of disruptive reverts: the article has been subject to massive deletions at least a few times each day for the past week or so. All reverts are being made by unconfirmed users, through just-registered accounts - thus reporting anyone specifically does not make any sense.Axxxion (talk) 17:36, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

The article has been semi-protected and both users are indefinitely blocked as sock puppet accounts. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:23, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

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IP whitewashing events

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I have dealt with this IP, 2600:8800:FF0E:1200:150C:31B:85B8:805E, who has been repeatedly disrupting pages on Portal:Current events, removing events because they violate WP:SOAPBOX, even when it isn't. When one reverts its edits, it reverts them back, with personal attacks, like evading a block or a sock puppet, when it isn't.

I suggest blocking that IP, and semi-protecting pages he attacked. That has nothing to do but to cause edit wars and throw personal attacks. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 07:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Hatting personal attacks
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this guy is a sock of a permanently banned user how obvious can it be - his method is always the same disagree with him and he starts an afd like this one - he is WP:BLOCKEVASION WP:SOCKPUPPET) - he then waits for an admin to buy the afd lies cause he has a named account and I always use an anonip — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:FF0E:1200:150C:31B:85B8:805E (talk) 08:00, 24 August 2017 (UTC) he comes to wiki to push his endless bias how obvious can it be!--2600:8800:FF0E:1200:150C:31B:85B8:805E (talk) 08:03, 24 August 2017 (UTC) he literally has been doing this exact same thing for years!!!--2600:8800:FF0E:1200:150C:31B:85B8:805E (talk) 08:07, 24 August 2017 (UTC) All those messages by that IP are personal attacks. Please ignore them.-TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:11, 24 August 2017 (UTC) who does he think he is kidding I can name over a hundred named accounts now which all follow the same pattern just as this one is doing - you may ask why don't I just start a sock puppet investigation? what would be the point? even now I am sure he is starting 10 more new socks to get his way as HE HAS DONE FOR YEARS!!!--2600:8800:FF0E:1200:150C:31B:85B8:805E (talk) 08:15, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• IP /64 subnet blocked for one month for block evasion, personal attacks and disruptive editing. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 08:28, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@Malcolmxl5: Thanks. That IP is riling me up already, as it kept on hounding me, at every revert and report of his disruptive edits. Thanks for the help. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 09:16, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

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Request for review of administrative actions: User:John

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User:John is an admin who is involved in a long ANI discussion here involving an editor other than myself. John is by far in the minority regarding community feeling toward the editor under discussion, and has used intemperate and uncivil language, referring to those who disagree with him as "a hanging mob." Attempts to speak with him with respect and in a reasonable tone are met with inappropriately defensive, accusatory language.

But what makes this serious enough to warrant review is his misuse of admin privileges, through his attempts to intimidate and harass those who disagree with. At that same ANI, another editor started the thread WP:ANI#John's chilling effect tactics after John went to those editors' talk pages — and only the talk pages of those who disagree with him — to place discretionary-sanctions template. As the other editor wrote, "Do note John's chilling effect here, here, here, here, here and here simply because he is not getting his way."

Compounding matters is that after not even a half-hour, another admin involved in the overall discussion, who agrees with John, peremptorily closed down the John discussion. (That seems a conflict of interest to me, but that's a separate issue.) Since John's attempt at intimidating editors who disagree with him did not get a proper airing out, it seems reasonable to bring it here as per instructions at Wikipedia:Requests for de-adminship WP:ADMINABUSE, in the hope that other admins will allow the issue to even be discussed. Any admin who goes around to those who disagree with him to implicitly threaten them deserves scrutiny.

I say all this with the full expectation that, given his behavior, he may claim "discretionary sanctions" to block me simply for bringing this up, even though I have not touched any of the articles mentioned in the ANI since the ANI began over a day ago.--Tenebrae (talk) 01:55, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Tenebrae, as seen at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive812#User:John and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons (WP:BLPs) and User talk:Flyer22 Reborn/Archive 14#Continuing disruption by User:John on biography articles, I've been through this. I understand how you feel, but it's going to take WP:ArbCom for John to be touched. This thread is likely to ram up more support for John and Hillbillyholiday's disruption. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:00, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

If you're serious about this, you should take it to ARBCOM. If you're not serious, you should withdraw this thread. Power~enwiki (talk) 02:05, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

it seems reasonable to bring it here as per instructions at Wikipedia:Requests for de-adminship
Help me out here, Tenebrae, I don't see said instructions on linked page. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:15, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

My apologies; it appears at WP:ADMINABUSE, which says in part: "[I]f the matter is not resolved between the two parties, users can proceed with dispute resolution (see this section below for further information). One possible approach is to use Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents to request feedback from the community...." Since the discussion about John's intimidation was cut short by a non-disinterested party, I am following those instructions and opening a formal abuse discussion here. --Tenebrae (talk) 03:24, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

This has now moved into the category of Theater of the Absurd. Another thread very similar to this about the same editor/admin was already quickly closed above. Can an uninvolved administrator close this before it gets any further out of hand and ridiculous? -- ψλ ● ✉ 02:19, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Tenebrae, I will note, though, that in that first discussion I linked to above, admin Nyttend stated the following: "Knowing nothing about any of these publications, I cannot offer an opinion about whether they are reliable sources. That being said, WP:V really is our primary content policy, aside from the limited situations in which we need to ignore all other rules. BLP absolutely may not be used as a trump card to censor stuff we don't like. If you get blocked, an unblock and immediate RFCU on John will follow." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:24, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

For the record: User:John is probably best off to disengage from the HillbillyHoliday thread. I'd rather not read the full details of his history with Flyer22 so I can't comment further there. Power~enwiki (talk) 02:36, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Per WP:CLOSE, uninvolved editors can close discussions, and GoldenRing was clearly involved and should not have done that close. GR, whether or not you were "right", selectively closing a sub-section in a discussion that you have already involved yourself is quite obviously not allowed and will virtually never make a situation better. I understand you're a new admin, but this is basic, basic stuff and you're going to be expected to exercise better judgment than this. Swarm ♠ 03:15, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
• Furthermore, GoldenRing, this and this were shockingly inappropriate removals. WP:TPO gives you no right to remove another editor's comments simply because they added them after a discussion you closed. This, particularly in the context of your WP:INVOLVED close, borders on serious abuse. Given the fact that your RfA was a serious outlier/long-shot, and that you were only promoted by a margin of about one or two 'crat votes (and with my support), I'm honestly shocked to see you behaving so arbitrarily in your administrative capacity. Swarm ♠ 03:32, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I do not see how the margin of GR's RFA is relevant to the validity of their administrative actions. As one user concluded in their 2009 study, "The overall support percentage in an RfA is a very poor predictor of how successful the administrator will be." Moreover, as noted in the aforementioned cratchat, "The [RFA] opposition is based almost exclusively on concerns about the candidate's activity levels and numbers of edits," not of potential abuse (emphasis mine). Is an admin whose RFA passed in the discretionary zone deserving of greater scrutiny than one who had a >75% support RFA? GAB^gab 04:07, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
    • @GeneralizationsAreBad: That bit was just a personal reaction that I offered as an aside, as a recently-promoted admin's RfA supporter. I was just shocked, because frankly I had no doubt that this user would go out of their way to prove the opposition wrong. It didn't actually have any bearing on my commentary on the "validity" (read: invalidity) of their administrative actions. If you'd like to get meta and discuss my opinion on the RfA further, come on over to my talk page. I do think a recent, very close promotion is relevant context to an instance of problematic admin behavior. But just to be clear, my statements pointing out the borderline-abusiveness of those actions are not a matter that relates to the RfA in any way. Those actions were a quite simply a straightforward breach of policy, guidelines, and community norms, and that would be the fact of the matter whether it was a new admin or a longstanding one, a discretionary promotion or a unanimous WP:300 one. As such, they should be seen as an administrative warning, with a bit of personal disappointment expressed on the side. Not some sort of convoluted criticism based on their RfA. Swarm ♠ 04:52, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Or, put more simply: That's a strawman. I pointed out the borderline RfA for this user's own sake. Don't detract from the seriousness of their actions. Swarm ♠ 05:01, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
    • As an aside, I'd caution against using a 2009 study of the RfA process in an argument about recently made admins. As anyone watching ANI will be aware, the RfA process and standards have evolved considerately in the past 8 years, so that many of the successful RfAs of yesterday would be snow-closed today. Cjhard (talk) 05:55, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
• Swarm, I thought Golden Ring wasn't really INVOLVED and said as much; looking over the thread again, I see that it was not a good choice for them to close that subthread. However, once a thread is closed, editors should respect that. As far as John is concerned, I am not aware that he took any administrative action, so this whole thing is a bit moot. If placing a templated AC/DS warning counts as intimidation, then hundreds of us are guilty of thousands of acts of intimidation. Drmies (talk) 05:04, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Editors should respect a closure. I agree. Unfortunately, WP:TPO is pretty straightforward. You can't just delete other people's comments. You just can't. It's not allowed. Simple as that. Swarm ♠ 05:12, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
    • I disagree that TPO is that simple. Editing closed discussions is clearly disruptive, which TPO describes as a "borderline case". In this case, the extent of my involvement is to have spent around three hours reading diffs and the whole of a very acrimonious discussion which Flyer22 Reborn has done their best to bludgeon, then comment on it. Flyer22 Reborn then chose to interpret a perfectly ordinary discretionary sanctions notice as a sort of administrative abuse. I considered closing the section swiftly a and explaining their error a kindness. When they persisted (and repeating an unfounded allegation is a personal attack) I closed again as a gentler option than just blocking them for the PA. In summary, I am sorry to have disappointed you; my intentions were good.
    • As regards this report, policy is absolutely crystal clear that any user may post discretionary sanctions notices to anyone, so long as the user has not received the same notice in the past twelve months. For someone who has been here as long as Flyer22 Reborn, and has received a DS notification in the past, it is stretching AGF to believe they don't know this, but I decided to treat it as a good-faith misunderstanding. For Tenebrae to bring it up here again after it has been explained repeatedly, is simply disruptive. Someone should use the fish appropriately and close this. GoldenRing (talk) 09:11, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Now and then someone edits a closed discussion to (for example) add a point of information that would be helpful if the discussion is referenced in the future, etc. There's nothing disruptive about that. Possibly such follow-on comments would be better added after the hat-box (especially if they're substantive in a way that makes the closer's summary not make sense) and if they're in the box you might gently move them after the box with an appropriate edit summary. But simply delete them? Outrageous. It seems August has been the month for admins who need to go back to admin school. EEng 14:33, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Note after close (like EEng): Thank you, Swarm and EEng. I am not going to respond to GoldenRing's mischaracterizations. I will state that the only reason that I did not revert his removals is because I did not want to be blocked by him or someone else. After he reverted me, I was surprised that he is an admin since, because, although he has been registered since 2005, he wasn't truly active as an editor until 2013 and I don't see a lot of editing experience when looking at his contributions, but that is a RfA matter. And as for this editor who added a DS notification to my talk page back in 2015, that editor is also an involved editor. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:45, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The sport is Athletics or Track & Field? The specialization is 100 m + 4x100 m relay or is right Sprinting?

Discussion now on going at talk page of article. RickinBaltimore (talk) 14:13, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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(Note: Section was moved from WP:AN) I am referring to this roll back of the User:Lugnuts (already 5 times blocked for edit war). Tell me he is right and I retire in good order :) --Kasper2006 (talk) 12:54, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Why aren't you discussing this on the talk page of the article, where this should be done first? Also, disputes should go to WP:ANI as it said in the big box at the top of the page. Also, you did not notify the user of this issue as it specifically said to do so. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:02, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Track and Field is more specific than Athletics, so Lugnuts was correct. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:33, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

MTA Bridges and Tunnels (Police)

• Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority Police
• MTA Bridges and Tunnels#Law enforcement
• GySgtHartman (talk · contribs)
• 108.30.149.204 (talk · contribs)
• 2604:2000:7083:8100:4CF1:94C7:1033:F28E (talk · contribs) and other IPv6's on this range

I'm honestly not sure where to report this. The above users have been engaging in a long term edit war over these two articles, resulting in the indef semi-protection of TBTA Police by C.Fred (talk · contribs), as well as multiple shorter term protections on MTA Bridges and Tunnels. GySgtHartman appears to have a COI, by being an employee of the agency in question. He is also the only logged in user involved, meaning that he can edit through the protection. However, he also appears to be editing while logged out as the IPv4, except when necessary. Could an admin look at this and consider applying some blocks? Thanks. – Train2104 (t • c) 13:17, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

There is also a sockpuppet situation in these articles:

• Mr Johnson SI (talk · contribs)

Said user focused on law enforcement accounts in New York state with a particular focus on changing any mention of "police officer" in many articles to "peace officer". Some—but not necessarily all—of the IP edits may be from him. The semi-protection of TBTA Police was in relation to this block evasion (although I didn't realize I made it indef). That's why I've been actively monitoring these articles. —C.Fred (talk) 18:22, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

User:Ejdjr account appears to be in use for promoting advertisement of his affiliated institution and personnel using Wikipedia as a platform

The use of Wikipedia for the purpose of advertisement of an institution with which User:Ejdjr is affiliated by the creation of a new page for it is against Wikipedia policy. His edits at The Friedman Brain Institute have had extensive negative comments from several administrators and other editors which seem to be ignored. User:Ejdjr is also removing quoted text from biography articles about personnel at his institution written by the NY Times which he simply calls ungrammatical and deletes at will. This he did at Dennis Charney several times. User:Ejdjr appears to be involved in the use of his account on multiple occassions for furthering the purposes of his affiliated institution and its related personnel by trying to create a new article to promote it and by trying to delete referenced materials associated with personnel at his affiliated institution. He has been informed on his Talk page that if he persists in using Wikipedia for the purpose of creating an advertisement page again for his affiliated institution or deleting referenced material from articles associated with personnel related to his institution that his account priviledges may be restricted which User:Ejdjr continues to ignore. Since I am only an infrequent editor at Wikipedia, it seemed appropriate to leave this report for further eval. 146.203.126.241 (talk) 19:49, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for posting this. I've left a message on that user's page as well. I do appreciate the cleanup you have been doing behind Ejdjr's quite blatant POV editing, which has indeed violated policy on several occasions (e.g. here). I encourage you to create an account, and continue contributing! Thanks again! Jytdog (talk) 17:23, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree the account seems to have been used for undisclosed promotional editing. Thanks for giving them warnings and advice, Jytdog and 146.xx. But since it's been over a month since they last edited, I don't think there's much more we can do until they return — if they do — and, hopefully, respond to you. Their promotional article draft has been rejected so many times they may have given up. Bishonen | talk 21:42, 23 August 2017 (UTC).

Disruptive edits to citations by User:Quinton Feldberg; editor is not reponsive

Quinton Feldberg has recently made hundreds of WP:MEATBOT-like edits that are erroneous, useless, or both. Many of his edits have been useful and constructive, but his error rate is far too high. He has been notified multiple times on his talk page of the errors and has been asked to correct his scripts and do a better job of previewing edits. He has responded a couple of times saying that he would look into it, but the edits have continued.

Yesterday, I asked him to stop editing until his scripts and previewing behavior were fixed. He did not do so. He continued editing, with an error/useless-edit rate of around 25%. The edits continue as I write this. I am requesting that an administrator review this situation to determine if I am overreacting or if some sort of official response is warranted.

User talk:Quinton Feldberg#Citation edits becoming disruptive is a good place to start. There are multiple sections above and below that section with links to diffs and explanations of the problems with the edits.

If this is the wrong venue or I could have done something on my own, I apologize in advance and will be happy to receive a trout for your trouble. Thanks. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:06, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I have told them to stop doing semi-automated edits and join this discussion. Given the high error rate and disruptive nature of semi-automated editing where the editor does not respond to concerns, I will block the account should they continue -- There'sNoTime ^{(to explain)} 13:16, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I have unfortunately had to block the account (3 hours) to prevent continued disruption - hopefully this will spark some constructive discussion. -- There'sNoTime ^{(to explain)} 13:28, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Interesting. I've seen this user's contributions on my watchlist a lot of late, but always thought they were doing good. Hopefully they'll reply to the block notice. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 17:56, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

As others have noted, perhaps three quarters of their edits are useful, but the error rate is too high. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:09, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I will fix the script. Quinton Feldberg (talk) 22:48, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Need somebody to look at the interaction between QubixQdotta and myself as it has descended into personal attacks and now threats

I'm not sure if this is the best place for this but things seem to be getting rather out of hand between User:QubixQdotta and myself to the point that I think that it can be considered an incident.

He has accused me of Gaslighting (diff), which is not a term I had heard of before, but based on the article I take to be a personal attack as it refers to an intentionally abusive form of dishonest manipulation. I am genuinely unable to see how my actions could be interpreted that way so I removed the comment and warned him for personal attacks. He has doubled down on this, reposting the accusation on his own talk page(diff) he has since posted what I take to be a threat on my talk page: diff (I'm not too bothered by the first part of that but the part saying "You might be seeing me a lot these days, so maybe trying to be my worst enemy right now isn't the best idea. Just saying." doesn't seem too healthy.)

OK. So how did we get here? Did I provoke him? I'll admit to taking a robust line with the large number of editors seeking to engage in revisionism on Fascism, Nazism and related articles. (Nice uncontroversial subjects, right?) I see the attempts to recast Fascism and Nazism as being left wing, or anything other than right wing, as revisionism and contrary to the historical consensus, and that has long been the general line on those pages' talk pages. That said, I also try to remember that there are intentional revisionists and those who have been confused into repeating the revisionist line in good faith and not to bite these people. I am also well aware that the motivation for this is more to distance right wing politics from Nazism than to attempt to rehabilitate it. I am sympathetic to those who do not wish to be associated with Nazism (I mean, who would?) but this is not a legitimate was to do it. In this case I may have jumped the gun a little but I think I was correct to see something more than a confused editor here.

Let's step through it chronologically: (I'll prefix QQ for QubixQdotta and DR for myself)

• QQ: diff - It starts here. An unreferenced revisionist edit to Nazism.
• DR: diff - I revert.
• DR: diif - I issue a level 2 warning for deliberate factual errors. I am prepared to concede that that was a little harsh. We have had a tidal wave of this sort of bad editing and I may have let my annoyance with others spill over into this. In retrospect maybe it should have been a level 1 or 2 for unreferenced changes.
• QQ: diff - The usual revisionist line about the Nazi's being "socialist" on my talk page but far more egregiously than normal he flat out accuses the mainstream history books which we use as sources of dishonesty.
• DR: diff - I reply explaining why this is wrong. I'll admit that my annoyance is showing as I have heard this line so many times before and I do find it hard to believe that it is advanced in good faith when combined with an attack on the sources in general. I'd call it robust not abusive. I use the word "stupid" to refer to the idea of taking Nazi terminology at face value but I do not call QubixQdotta stupid. I try to send him off to look at the Talk page archives, look at the sources and to use the article talk page, not my talk page, if he wants to press it further. I'll admit the end is a bit overdramatic but I think the basic point, that anybody who doesn't recognise mainstream sources as valid is not going to get very far here, is valid.
• QQ: diff - Replies with the accusation of "gaslighting" and a claim that he is trying to work constructively, which I find hard to take seriously. (Over on Talk:Nazism he was questioning sources again, not in any specific way, just not really accepting that sources are valid in general, a line his has since softened.)
• DR: diff - I revert the accusation and rollup what has gone before.
• DR: diff - I warn him, only at level 2, against personal attacks.
• QQ: diff - Copies the accusation to his talk page.
• QQ: diff - Posts two messages on my talk page. One is a general expression of annoyance, which I'm OK with, but the second one seems to be a quite blatant threat and that is what brings us here.

And that's where we are. There is also some back and forth on Talk:Nazism but that is not as bad and I won't bore you all by itemising it.

In retrospect, I would have handled it differently, playing out the rope a lot more calmly for him to hang himself with, but I do not believe that I provoked him in any way that can justify a complaint of gaslighting (which, based on the article, is a much more serious accusation than it may at first sound) or that final threat in which he seems to be saying that he is moving in and taking over here. The threat is seriously disturbing. That is why I have brought this here. Maybe, or maybe not, the rest of the story is overkill but I didn't want to give the false impression that this came from nowhere.

It would be great if somebody could look this over and decide where, if anywhere, we go from here. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:40, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

You called me "stupid" and a "horse that was brought to water" when I was simply trying to have a civil discussion with you. I tried to keep my cool and talk to you, but you went back to insults towards my intelligence and motive for editing here (not constructive and by far not WP:KEEPCOOL or WP:GOODFAITH). I am here to help the project and I have gotten nothing but negativity and insults about me. What I meant by my statement was that I don't want to be your enemy if I'm going to be working with you on the article. I admit the statement could definately be taken out of context but thats not what I meant. But anyways, I don't care for the way I've been treated by DanielRigal and I can honestly say that I have never sent any bad words your way about what you believe in or about your intelligence. From an honest place of respect for you coming into this article, I feel very disrespected as a fellow editor and it really isn't okay. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 00:34, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Gaslighting is making one question their own perception (you claim was an "attack"; it was more of a expression of how I felt) - which I said based on the fact you said, "If you really do believe that all the history books are wrong (and intentionally dishonest) then Wikipedia is probably not for you. In fact, that seems to be a view incompatible with any understanding of the real world at all." Another insult towards my intelligence, I was honestly offended because I'm a free thinker and I question everything. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 01:13, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Although the rhetoric got slightly out of hand, at the core of this is a content dispute. QQ made an unsourced edit based on their interpretation of Nazism, basically WP:OR, which was correctly reverted and Daniel has admitted to being harsher than necessary.

QQ's followup comment, Daniel's 4th diff, shows a misunderstanding of sourcing. Irrespective of what we, as editors, think of the source material, if the source is reliable and states that Nazism is far right wing then that is what will be entered. QubixQdotta, the "stupid" comment could not be interpreted as being directed at you and rather as a generic statement. At this point, what I see is that QubixQdotta overreacted a bit and things got heated but nothing that can't be mended. However, if you, QubixQdotta, want to push an edit like the one that started this mess then you better make sure you have solid reliable sources that back you up. Blackmane (talk) 02:00, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

That original edit was made on the fly because I thought it was vandalism. I don't usually edit political articles, so I didn't even know people considered Nazism far-right. It was alien to me. "QubixQdotta overreacted a bit and things got heated but nothing that can't be mended." I appreciate the kind words but honestly, I'm positive I kept my cool the whole time. (maybe tone doesn't translate well through text?) While I'm sorry I didn't source on the "far-left" edit, that doesn't change the fact DanielRigal escalated the whole thing into calling me names, insulting my intelligence, and a "horse that was brought to water" and even recently "playing out the rope a lot more calmly for him to hang himself with". With all due respect, I didn't say anything of that nature to DanielRigal. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 02:21, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Another misunderstanding is that my motivation is to take away sources. That's not my motivation. It's to elaborate on why academics think in these diverse ways. I read the Nazism article and noticed very simplistic bouts of information being sourced heavily with pages and pages of information from textbooks: "The majority of scholars identify Nazism in both theory and practice as a form of far-right politics." (sourced here Nazism#cite_note-Fritzsche_Eatwell_Griffin-13). It made me extremely curious as to how this extremely sophisticated 3-in-1 source could be summed up into such a simple sentence (it wasn't even sourced a second time), and it made me extremely curious to know what was in those pages and how I could utilize them more effectively. The article just left a lot to be answered. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 02:54, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

If you're coming here to look for answers and make edits and to elaborate on why academics think in these diverse ways then you're in the wrong place. The whole point of Wikipedia is to act as a collation of what reliable sources say and not to provide a forum on the discourse of whichever topic one may be curious about. Nor is it a place to interpret what one source says against what another says. If you don't see what the main goal of Wikipedia is and how your first edit set things off, then DanielRigal is correct in saying that Wikipedia is not for you. Blackmane (talk) 03:00, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Once again with due respect, you're missing what I'm saying. I did not say anything about interpreting sources or providing a forum. I'm talking about taking what these academics have said and providing their information as is. What I'm doing is totally based on Wikipedia policies about WP:NPOV. What I want to do is the exact opposite of interpretation. It's pure fact and facts about the views of academics. I discover facts, I don't interpret. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 04:19, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

You misunderstand WP:NPOV. It does not mean that we give equal WP:Weight to every possible idea and theory. We base our articles on the consensus of experts, in this case historians of the Nazi regime. Now, we also will sometimes mention other WP:fringey viewpoints, but even then they have to be espoused by recognized experts, and we do not present them as the prevailing view or give them the same exposure as the generally recognized viewpoint.

In this instance, that Nazism was a far-right movement is undoubtedly accepted by the vast majority of historians and political scientists. Yes "Socialism" is in the name, quite deliberately so, as when Hitler changed the name of the party he was attempting to attract as many people to it as possible. The early party platform (the so-called "25 points", which was never rescinded) did include socialist programs, and there was even a "socialist" wing of the party, led by the Strasser brothers, but Hitler drove Otto Strasser out and purged Gregor Strasser in the Night of the Long Knives, just as he did Ernst Rohm, another socialist-leaning Nazi, and Josef Goebbels, a Strasserite with a socialist background, fell totally under Hitler's spell. In the end, even though the 25 points was never withdrawn, and even though some programs Hitler initiated when he took power were quasi-socialistic, overall, the party and the regime was not left-wing, and the "Socialist" in the party's name was honored mostly in the breech. To spend much more time then I've done here exploring the socialist aspects of Nazism would be to give it WP:UNDUE weight.

So, bottom line, you've been here a little over a year, but you apparently haven't totally grasped how things are done and what our editorial policies are. I'd suggest that you bone up on those before you get yourself in another editing dispute. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:43, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

And please, fix your sig. It's not only unreadable, it's so far down below the line that it visually interferes with the line below it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:44, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

No I actually didn't misunderstand NPOV. I read the part about undue weight too. I'm talking about taking what these academics have said and providing their information as is. What I'm doing is totally based on Wikipedia policies about WP:NPOV. What I want to do is the exact opposite of interpretation. It's pure fact and facts about the views of academics. I discover facts, I don't interpret. [qub/x q;otta] ▤▧ 05:05, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

(ec) Yes, you actually have misinterpreted it, because you're still saying the same thing, and it's not what NPOV means. You may have read the part about "undue weight", but you obviously didn't understand it. Considering how adamant you are about this, and how resistant you are to accepting that you are wrong, I think it may be worthwhile for editors to take a look at your article edits to see if you've been following this false reading of NPOV in them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:32, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Thank you for altering your sig. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:33, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

@QubixQdotta: Please further adjust your signature to conform to MOS:CONTRAST, thanks. — fortunavelut luna 09:27, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

On my browser, the username is unclickable. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:51, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, his username isn't linked. :P — nihlus kryik  (talk) 14:59, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

The boxes after the name appear to have the required link. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:07, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

The comment about QQ being around for a little over a year reminded me of something QQ said about having been "a very experienced Wikipedian" when I welcomed them back in May 2016. This led to a rabbit hole, and I ended up filing Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jump Guru. Oops. It plausibly looks to me like a dormant account was reactivated to !vote in an AFD in 2016. It's a bit stale, but regardless, QQ definitely claimed to be an experienced editor shortly after the account was created. Grayfell (talk) 06:28, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, what a surprise, you could knock me over with a feather! Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:32, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• so the OP's main reason for filing was this diff by QubixQdotta, and the part of that the OP found somewhat disturbing was: You might be seeing me a lot these days, so maybe trying to be my worst enemy right now isn't the best idea. Just saying. I agree that this is... thuggish.

Above, QubixQdotta wrote: I don't usually edit political articles, so I didn't even know people considered Nazism far-right.

Really?

I looked at their contribs. Here is their edit count. They have made about 750 edits, with 20 deleted.

• Around 200 of those edits are related to Peckerwood gangs, which arose in prison in opposition to black gangs and have some roots in/affiliations with the Aryan Brotherhood. (per the editing statastics, Qubix is the leading contributor by far to the peckerwood page.
• It is true that Qubix doesn't contribute much to mainstream political pages, but their biggest chunk of Talk is at Alt-right (see their contribs there; that includes a string of edits in May (their last edits to the page) that were so offensive they were redacted as you can see in the history here. In their second comment from back in January they give very strong and clear views on alt-right politics. I see no sense of ignorance about politics there.

By February at the alt-right page they were being asked to propose concrete changes already, and replied by continuing to write things like this: ... "White supremacy" is a label that often gets swept over things that people are too lazy to further investigate. I understand it makes you guys happy to see nazis get burned alive on Wikipedia, but I rather see truth about the matter, not what I see on the news everyday. ...Excuse me if I get passionate about the truth of topics but it really means alot to hear truth which includes the truth about the movement's racism and Richard Spencer's crazy bigoted garbage. I'm used to my community telling me alternative facts/weird conspiracies about politicians and that I'm supposed to believe them. I come to Wikipedia for truth and to spread truth.

By April they were writing things like this: I know right OP? It's almost like elitist editors on this page completely ignored WP:COI and WP:NPOV. And why so passionately too? Oh I think I know: $$$. :)

So we have some of the The Truth and the usual accompanying conspiracy theorizing going on here...

• And then there is stuff related to Nazi page already discussed above.

QubixQdotta is s[bringing the tiger into Wikipedia way too much (per WP:Beware of tigers). I am not sure what the right answer is but Qubix definitely needs to rethink how they are approaching these topics, and other editors at them. The SPI is also turning very strange... I cannot make sense out of what this is person is doing in WP or the various voices they use here and ways/topics they edit. Jytdog (talk) 21:19, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I was looking at the SPI and wondering whether I could/should say anything helpful/useful but the truth is that I can't really make head nor tail of it. I'd just like to thank everybody for their time taken looking into this matter which has become far more complex and time consuming than I expected. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:15, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

The SPI may be confusing, but some things have been pretty well established:

• QQ had a previous account User:QubixRaver, so when QQ said (spontaneously, in two different places) that they were around before, they were telling the truth, and when they said on the SPI they were making that up, they were not telling the truth;
• QubixRaver also said they had a previous account, in words very similar to those used by QQ
• QQ claimed responsibility for the article Scribner's Magazine, which had been heavily edited by User:Jump Guru
• QQ and Jump Guru both !voted "keep" at AfD for an article on a window company which was deleted as promotional. Neither editor's normal contributions show any proclivity for dealing with such a subject, which is completely outside their usual territories.

There's some more, but those are the main points. If nothing else comes up, an admin will have to determine whether a CU is justified or if a block on behavioral grounds is warranted on the basis of that information. I'm continuing to look to see if there's anything else worth reporting. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:27, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

need help: important data being arbitrarily deleted

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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please help!! this guy keeps removing important, specific sourced data pertaining to an important historical object, from the actual entry on the historical object itself, Plimpton 322!!

here is link to edit at article. thanks!!!--Sm8900 (talk) 16:03, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

You need to take this to the article talk page - there are far more refs than are required to support the statement. The trimming of recent articles was appropriate. There is not apparent need for administrative action here. You are also required to inform the user of your post here, as stated in the bold orange bar at the top of the screen when you made this post. I have done this for you, this time. Scr★pIron^IV 16:29, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Protection for Zapad 2017 exercise, yet again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Just transferring recent postings from above to down here for better attention, as the issue is getting worse:

Although User:Vladimir serg has been indefinitely blocked by Malinaccier for disruptive editing, similar massive deletions continue, probably by a sock — User:Pravdorub1986 ([10]), in Zapad 2017 exercise. As I already suggested, the best option would be to semi-block the article. The issue may be way more serious than somebody being just stroppy.Axxxion (talk) 20:30, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

The level of possible disruption on this article isn't nearly high enough to warrant protection of this article right now. Report the individual users for violations of policies if it gets to that level - if you think these accounts are sock puppets, file an SPI. If the disruption is repeated and vandalism, report it to AIV. If the users edit war, report it at AN3. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:03, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Oshwah: You would do well to have another look: multiple massive deletions have occurred just within the last few hours: [11]. Also, when looking at the edit history, analyse actual timing of disruptive reverts: the article has been subject to massive deletions at least a few times each day for the past week or so. All reverts are being made by unconfirmed users, through just-registered accounts - thus reporting anyone specifically does not make any sense.Axxxion (talk) 17:36, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Axxxion - See my response in the previous Zapad 2017 ANI thread. The two users have been indef'd as sock puppets, and the article has been semi-protected :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:23, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Semi-protected for one month. These people need to start talking on the talk page. A report to SPI may be worthwhile. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:56, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Awesome! :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:33, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Poo refdesk troll again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 11:53, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I thought that was a genuine question. How do you know it's a troll? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:39, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

The poo troll is a LTA who uses the refdesk for scatological inquiries. The justification for removing the section was in my hatting reason. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi and Medeis have probably also seen this person before. This has been happening for a long long time now. The situation is comparable to, for example, the nazi refdesk troll. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 12:46, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Ah, I see.In that case, perhaps removal might be called for. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:49, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Yep. I have asked StuRat to revert himself. The proxy has been blocked. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 13:51, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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He is back with 49.172.53.99 (blocked already) and 167.160.140.188 {not blocked yet). (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 18:04, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

167.160.140.188 now blocked. Tornado chaser (talk) 18:06, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

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DatBot not resizing Non-free images

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Recently, I tagged an image I uploaded for Non-free image reduction. Normally, DatBot is supposed to automatically resize non-free images, but lately, the bot hasn't been running the program. It hasn't touched non-free images since July. Pinging DatGuy as the operator of the bot. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 19:05, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

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User:Michaele and Tareq

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Wikipedia:Username_policy#Usernames_implying_shared_use -- they have been warned multiple times on their talkpage that they need to create a new account (or two). (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 11:58, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

They keep removing those warnings, and thus the category from their page so they're aware that they're being asked. Interestingly enough it looks likely they may be blocked for their editing soon anyway as they keep adding user generated external links as references despite numerous complaints and notices to stop. Canterbury Tail talk 15:11, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

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I am reporting this account. User:Satoshi Kondo

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User:Satoshi Kondo There is an account under Japanese name that is editing articles on Korean history, modifying the historical truth. I am reporting this account. USAthegreatest (talk) 15:04, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Did you read the big warning at the top of the page that clearly says "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page"? Edit:I've notified them of this discussion. RickinBaltimore (talk) 15:08, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Is editing an article on Korean history by someone with a Japanese name verboten? If you think this persons behavior is problematic, please point out the behavior. From this side of the screen it's less than crystal clear what you are complaining about (other than someone with a Japanese name). Kleuske (talk)

I just took a look at the edit summaries of the reported user in their contribs, I think it needs a closer look. I am pretty sure referring to an editor as 'Turk' even in passing is not acceptable. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:40, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

If user pejoratively, yes. But the youngest edit I found of them calling anyone "Turk" is a year old. Kleuske (talk) 16:25, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Ha you are correct, I missed the switch from August 2016 - 2017 (only one edit between them). From looking at the edit history though they do seem to be getting into a few edit wars involving Japanese influence in the Asian area. Albeit with a year break between. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:28, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

For anyone not familiar with the area, there is a long-term issue involving Japan laying claim to influencing/originating various things historically, there is also denial by Koreans over legitimate actual Japanese influence so it goes both ways. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:31, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

This reminds of the Goguryeo controversies back in the days. I will take a look at this. Alex Shih^Talk 17:05, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) The reporting user left a message on my talk page asking me to undo an edit on the South Korea article. The edit itself doesn't seem problematic, but I think the user's main issue with it was the inclusion of "Republic of China" next to Taiwan. Bamnamu (talk) 20:47, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• I would not be at all surprised if there is a problem with the reported user, but... With a username like "USAthegreatest", a succession of useless edits to get autoconfirmed, a fast learning curve on where ANI is, and jumping into a hot-contested area where we've had socking issues in the past ... who wants to bet me $100 the reporting user is not a returning blocked/banned user? --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:16, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Well I've reverted every single on of USA's edits as being pointy and unexplained. Reverting edits because you don't like a user is not an explanation for the edits. They are also removing referenced material and replacing it with unreferenced material. Yes I think chances are they're another user and maybe evading a block, but I don't know of whom. If they continue they're going straight to an indef, not escalating blocks. Canterbury Tail talk 18:01, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Okay, USATheGreatest appears to be having competence issues. I've been in some communications with them but they're not getting it. Again reverting without good explanations and trying to use webmirror copies of the same Wikipedia article as references for inclusion. I'm about to leave the computer for some time so if someone could keep an eye on their edits it would be appreciated. I've asked them for previous usernames if they've edited before but no response. Canterbury Tail talk 19:54, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

See this: [12]. Canterbury, I felt you were extremely civil and polite with them on your talk page FWIW. I'm agreeing that this is slowly going into WP:CIR territory. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:15, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

FYI, the OP got blocked by Ponyo for sockpuppetry. Kleuske (talk) 21:51, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Geez, someone should keep track of the number of times socks are discovered because they bring complaints to the noticeboards. It's like a death wish or something. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:41, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Even better is when they report themselves at SPI. GAB^gab 01:53, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I guess that it's no fun socking or trolling unless someone knows you're doing it, so doing it too successfully is not satisfying. Hell, I know that I'm constantly tempted to leave clues towards the discovery of my own vast sock farm. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:34, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

In the the end it's just the three of us, running this website. The rest are socks. Oh, shit... I shouldn't have said that? Kleuske (talk) 20:08, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

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Disruptive user

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I am currently struggeling with User:Jytdog.

Recently I revived a WikiProject Wikipedia:WikiProject Investment. Right now im trying to develop tables for investment companies to add structure to them.

I just got started with trying to find users interested in joining the project.

Recently the user (Jytdog) has been criticizing the project and its scope.

I thanked him for helping.But since then he just has not stopped on hounding me and all of my recent edits. The project I revived is quite small still and Im trying to grow it. I tried to explain that I need to discuss it with the other members and that I wil adress issues that he mentioned, but these suggestions of mine were rejected by him.

My edits are being followed and now he is reverting him. I have tried to continue communicating but he just does not seem willing to do so.

Also I have showed him links to the pages Wikipedia:IAR, Wikipedia:You Can't Follow All The Rules, All The Time and Wikipedia:Snowball clause. He has pretty much only been focusing on following the rules rather then improving Wikipedia. Additionally the user does not seem to know enough about the projects topics.

Also the editor seems to have had a history with disruptive editing.

To summarise: I am being prevented from contributing in my limited time on Wikipedia by a user whos main agenda is to strictly stay by the rules rather then using common sense in improving Wikipedia.

Cheers. WikiEditCrunch (talk) 21:38, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

What is happening here is really strange. WikiEditCrunch is enthusiastic but doesn't seem to really grasp (or care) about some of the fundamentals here in WP.

You can review discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Investment.

What appears to be upsetting them at this point are my edits to an article they created, Cambridge Investment Research, which we were discussing at the WikiProject's talk page as an example of WikiEditCrunch's desire to add lists of investment holdings owned by corporate investors/brokers. The page looked like this earlier today.

A bunch of sourcing there was awful and I started cleaning it up, which WikiEditCrunch didn't like... see Talk:Cambridge_Investment_Research.

Am still in the process of trying to put this article on sounder footing when I received notice of this. Jytdog (talk) 21:46, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

• I agree with Jytdog's criticisms. I think WikiEditCrunch is pursuing their own goals regardless of Wikipedia conventions or practicality. I also have doubts about anyone that makes pleas based upon either their donations of time or the readers' desires. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:49, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I definitely think that my contributions to Wikipedia are based on how readers can use them (so that they can be practical). Cheers. WikiEditCrunch (talk) 21:52, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

@WikiEditCrunch: You need to be much more specific than the general complaints in your report. If Jytdog is being disruptive in some way, then you need to provide specific diffs (see WP:DIFF) that show him being disruptive. Same thing if he's unnecessarily preventing you from being productive. WP:IAR is indeed a basic tenet of the project, but you really can't just wave the IAR flag and say that Jytdog's "main agenda is to strictly stay by the rules rather then using common sense" - you're accusing a long-time productive editor of supporting the rules of Wikipedia and saying that he's wrong to do so, so you have to prove your point by providing some evidence why he's wrong to support them. In short, I don't believe any admin is going to sanction Jytdog on the basis of the complaint you just filed; you're going to have to be much more specific and provide damning evidence of the serious violations of behavior you are accusing them of. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:54, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

• WikiEditCrunch, Wikipedia:Ignore all rules is a core policy of Wikipedia, but don't be misled into thinking it applies all the time. It doesn't mean "do what you see fit", it means "if a rule prevents you from improving Wikipedia, don't feel obliged to follow it". There are certain rules which for legal or ethical reasons Wikipedia needs to follow, and thus deviation from them will never constitute improvement and this WP:IAR will never come into play, and our policy that all material needs to be sourced to independent, significant sources is one of these. I appreciate you're acting in good faith here, but Jytdog is behaving entirely correctly in removing material sourced to press releases and blogs. ‑ Iridescent 21:55, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Please take a look at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Investment.

Also I totally agree with adding sources to the article.Removing certain once is also good.

What I do not find correct is the hounding of me.Jytdog needs to restrain himself and realise this may not be the right approach. If you take a look at the Project talk page you will see he has made it very difficult for me to understand how I can improve the aspects he is criticiszing. Also only following the rules is counter-productive.

Cheers. WikiEditCrunch (talk) 21:59, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

As has already been explained to you, you need to provide specific evidence of Jytdog hounding you. I am not going to sanction a long-standing Wikipedia editor for following Wikipedia's rules, particularly when you either won't or can't provide any evidence of it. ‑ Iridescent 22:09, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
(adding) I've tried to skim as best I can this thread, which appears to be the thread about which you're complaining—your refusal to follow Wikipedia practice on threaded conversations makes it hard to follow, but I can see no evidence of Jytdog acting inappropriately there. Per my previous comment, Wikipedia:Verifiability—which includes the need for all claims to be cited to independent, non-trivial, reliable, secondary sources—is a non-negotiable core policy, and is an instance where WP:IAR can't be invoked since reflecting reliable sources is Wikipedia's core purpose. ‑ Iridescent 22:15, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

@WikiEditCrunch: As much sympathy as I have on your enthusiasm, I think you need to refrain from taking things personally. You need to master some basic understanding of how things are done here before starting to invoke IAR. I suggest you withdraw this thread now as it will certainly head to nowhere, and we can work on some advice for you later on maintaining WikiProjects. Alex Shih^Talk 22:20, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

• Note on the threading thing. This is one of those small things, like saying "please" and "thank you", that makes things work in a society. This goes without saying for experienced users, but we all know that somebody blowing this off, is a sign of somebody who is really not interested in following community norms more broadly. I mentioned this to WikiEditCrunch on their talk page here, which they deleted here, and after I went and threaded all their comments on the WP:Investment talk page here, I went and again asked them to do the threading thing and you can se their responses here.

As I said, a small, tiny thing, but resistance to following this convention is often a sign of larger problems of taking IAR to mean "I will do whatever i want and ignore the policies and guidelines", as we are seeing here more clearly now. Jytdog (talk) 22:26, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Here are some parts: Part1 Part2 Part3Part4 Part5 Part6

I would like to add that in the beginning Jytdog seemed to be helpful but he quickly became "demanding" and just seems to not be able to calmy adress issues.

About the threading: No one has ever complained to me about threading.

Cheers. WikiEditCrunch (talk) 22:35, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, someone is now. It's annoying that you don't thread, which makes it more difficult to read a discussion, and it's annoying that your signature is on a separate line with a blank line between it and the end of your text, which also makes reading more difficult, and it's annoying that you put every sentence of your comment on a separate line, which makes for visual clutter and, again, more difficulty in reading None of these are earth-shattering, sanction-warranting habits, but they are annoying, and it would be better if you stopped doing them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:44, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I would point out to you that the WP:Talk page guidelines provides guidance for editors as to under what circumstances re-formatting another editor's talk page comment is allowed:

Fixing format errors that render material difficult to read. In this case, restrict the edits to formatting changes only and preserve the content as much as possible. Examples include fixing indentation levels...

so Jytdog was quite justified in re-threading your comments. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:52, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I added some links to discussion pages above.I do not think this is a big deal so this discussion should come to a conclusion soon. Cheers.WikiEditCrunch (talk) 22:48, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

You "do not think this is a big deal"? Then why the heck did you file an AN/I report and accuse another editor of being "disruptive", of preventing you from being productive, and of harboring an unhelpful agenda? Or do you actually mean to say that you were wrong in filing the report, and that you withdraw it? Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:52, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I filed an AN/I report because Jytdog was not able to communicate so someone had to weigh in.I made my case with the discussion parts links I put in here.If you believe that there is nothing wrong with then please withdraw the filing to end this from being pointlessly discussed. CheersWikiEditCrunch (talk) 22:57, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

The ultimate purpose of an AN/I report is to get action from an admin to put a stop to behavioral problems with a warning or a sanction, or to get the community to put pressure on the reported editor to stop. Looking back, do you really think that Jytdog had a failure to communicate, that you did not do your own part in that supposed failure, and that the supposed failure was so drastic that it required admin or community action?

Perhaps I am unique, but whether I agree with him or disagree on any specific issue, I've never know Jytdog to have a problem communicating with other editors. Perhaps you should review the discussions the two of you had with an eye towards trying to understand what Jytdog is attempting to tell you? Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:43, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

BTW, thank you for reformatting your comments and sig, and for properly indenting. It really makes quite a difference. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:44, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

In this matter Jytdog clearly had problems comunicating with me (in my opinion he was not patient enough;I mean I just started the WikiProject again)

What he was telling me was clear:That I need to adjust the project scope to fit certain guidelines.

In the end I think he could have been a bit more relaxed.I have learned from this to be honest.

Obviously I could have also waited with the AN/I but I think it is time now to just close this discussion as there seems to be no serious issue. Cheers WikiEditCrunch (talk) 23:53, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

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Editing based Conflict of interest

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Hi! im just a new registered editors here and last day i try to re-include a philippine part of Kinnara and Garuda sections (and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kinnara&action=history but it is already there with a good source based on academic references. Suddenly there was a User named User:Non3tup has trying to revert and delete the philippine sub sections, because their reason its a block evasion but as i know, this removing of a sourced materials are clear violation of wikipedia's policy and not-either stated in the 14 stated rules on wikipedia , so it means its either he is not famillar with the Deletion policy or they just doing it with an Conflict of interest (WP:Conflict of interest) , i dont know what on his or their mind i afraid that it might a conflict of interest based on the ideas of his friends (influence) i hope you can help me to figure out "if this deleted section which is supposedly created by a block editor was illegal despite of it academic proof of sourcing" because i am tired to confront them and i don't like edit wars thank you! (Searcher0 (talk) 05:50, 27 August 2017 (UTC))

PS: No matter where he and his friends take this up im ready because i prove an academic sourced book i just want to verify that troubles about deletion of academically-sourced references thank you! (Searcher0 (talk) 06:40, 27 August 2017 (UTC))

This is a content dispute. You need to use the talk pages for those articles, as he instructed you to do. --Tarage (talk) 07:26, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

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That's it? i have feel doubt on those.(Searcher0 (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 02:40, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Immediate block needed

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Special:Contributions/Deadzeitgeist (returned sock). Johnuniq (talk) 02:20, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Johnuniq, done. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:31, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

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Best practices (re-creation of deleted page)

Monitor Records (New York) was prodded by TenPoundHammer (note, I'm pinging but not "notifying" because his actions were absolutely correct and not up for review) because there was no indication of notability. I know this to be an important classical label in the 1960s-1970s, so I de-prodded and found sources. However, it became blindingly obvious that the article was a blatant copyright violation of the Smithsonian page, so I deleted the article. I plan on creating this article again (non-copyvio) with the sources I found, and my question is thus: Should I re-create the article, which would give me credit in editing history for having created the article (when in fact I am not the true "originator" of the subject), or would it be better to restore the article, and then revdelete all previous versions prior to the "replacement" version I create (thereby giving article creator credit to the copyright violator). I've not run into this situation before in my editing "career" here, and I'd like broader input into what the community deems the most ethical course of action in this situation. Not typical ANI material (fortunately) and maybe this belongs at Village Pump, but I want eyes. Thanks! 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 14:07, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Create it as a new article. You shouldn't feel guilty about appearing to be the first person to create a proper article on the subject, because you will be that, but if you wish you can put a short note of explanation on the article talkpage. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:15, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Well; we should only submit articles that are in line with policy. If someone has failed to do that before you, that's of no concern of yours. Pace NYB, but I do not agree that TP notes are necessary- think how many times this actuall happens- even accidentally, where one is not aware of a previous version. Anyway. — fortunavelut luna 14:21, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree that a talkpage note is not at all necessary; was merely noting that it is permissible if desired. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:30, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Of course, thanks. I also agree there's no harm in it whatsoever, and it's to be praised as an example of how occasionally editors can go beyond the spirit of collegiality, and by doing so, make up a little ground for those who do not  :) — fortunavelut luna 16:31, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Put the Deletions in the Template:Article history on the talk page, then anyone can see the history. - X201 (talk) 14:39, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

More eyes as requested :P Create the new version and template the talk as suggested by X201. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:06, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Per FIM and NYB, this is fine. Talk page suggestions by NYB/X201/FT are not harmful, but not needed. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:31, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks all, I truly appreciate everyone's perspective. I have recreated the article. I will do as X201 suggests, although unfortunately it appears that "Create" is not one of the valid parameters, so that will require a separate note. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 16:54, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Mattb2314 edits to pulmonary hypertension

Pinging those who might have interests in this: @Ozzie10aaaa: and @Doc James:

An editor, Mattb2314 has been continuously making heavy changes to the pulmonary hypertension page. As one who is not a member of WikiProject Medicine, I just noticed the very huge edit on RC patrol, and found out that the editor has had a history of edits on the page which have caused contention (in that case from Ozzie10aaaa). This user has warned Mattb2314 before about large, breaking edits [13] but I see no response, no discussion at all. Another 'silent' editor.

Hopefully something can be done here. I reverted the edits in question, FYI. Thanks, ^{My name is}not^dave (talk/contribs) 14:14, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Found this. Will warn about COI/PAID. ^{My name is}not^dave (talk/contribs) 14:23, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

well I was going to respond to the question of their edits(they added 73 edits/36,000 bytes[14]...and were reverted 6 times by four different editors[15]), however apparently COI has been found[16]...--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 14:25, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

They are with PHA Europe. Happy to have them join us. The issue is more regarding WP:MEDMOS, WP:MEDRS, and WP:MEDHOW. Well they have been provided these details they are not responsive :-( Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:33, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I've also warned for edit warring. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:53, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi Doc James and Ozzie10aaaa, sorry for my late reply. I wasn´t aware of the impact of my changes. I will inform you if I will do any further ones. Thank you for your feedback!

Phone number spam (Previous title: Anyone want to help roll back vandalism?)

Hi. User:185.212.169.218 has been adding the same phone number to a large number of articles about universities. I've reverted some but have to go do other stuff tonight. Does anyone have time to revert this IP's other contributions? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 06:00, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

This also needs a block as the spree is ongoing. I've reported at AIV. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 06:05, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Yikes. I'll revert it whenever I see it. RC is moving a bit too quickly for my comfort, right now. --a u t a c o i d ^(stalk) 06:07, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

User:185.212.169.201 seems to be related, if not the same person. Reverting their changes. --a u t a c o i d ^(stalk) 06:10, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

There are multiples. Can we get a range block? — nihlus kryik  (talk) 06:16, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

It has been done ;-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 06:31, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, Oshwah. User:51.15.153.37 seems to follow the same pattern. Reverted all of their edits I've seen so far. --a u t a c o i d ^(stalk) 06:56, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Poof! Like magic, it stops editing ;-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 07:14, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

@MelanieN: Pinging MelanieN as this looks similar to an existing scam on many Indian university articles. Ravensfire (talk) 17:08, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Now 162.244.81.106 (talk · contribs) is doing it. Reported at AIV. Would love help to revert contributions. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 06:18, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Blocked and reverted. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 06:24, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree this looks like a scam rather than simple vandalism. I'm concerned that the RC patrollers and watchlisters are seldom picking it up. Is there a good way to bring the issue to the attention of our RC patrollers? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 07:08, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

The latest IP range used was a webhost, which I range blocked. If the same phone number is being spammed, one can suggest an edit filter at WP:EF/R. I'm not really aware of an area where you post alerts to RC patrollers, but some patrollers probably hang out at IRC. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:15, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you :) Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 06:41, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Uncivil comments from Upanshu upanshu at my talk

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Here's [17] the diff. Nothing more to add.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 23:03, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Not really actionable but eeesh, he needs to work on his own English rather than criticize other's. --Tarage (talk) 00:59, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

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Editing based Conflict of interest

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Hi! im just a new registered editors here and last day i try to re-include a philippine part of Kinnara and Garuda sections (and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kinnara&action=history but it is already there with a good source based on academic references. Suddenly there was a User named User:Non3tup has trying to revert and delete the philippine sub sections, because their reason its a block evasion but as i know, this removing of a sourced materials are clear violation of wikipedia's policy and not-either stated in the 14 stated rules on wikipedia , so it means its either he is not famillar with the Deletion policy or they just doing it with an Conflict of interest (WP:Conflict of interest) , i dont know what on his or their mind i afraid that it might a conflict of interest based on the ideas of his friends (influence) i hope you can help me to figure out "if this deleted section which is supposedly created by a block editor was illegal despite of it academic proof of sourcing" because i am tired to confront them and i don't like edit wars thank you! (Searcher0 (talk) 05:50, 27 August 2017 (UTC))

PS: No matter where he and his friends take this up im ready because i prove an academic sourced book i just want to verify that troubles about deletion of academically-sourced references thank you! (Searcher0 (talk) 06:40, 27 August 2017 (UTC))

This is a content dispute. You need to use the talk pages for those articles, as he instructed you to do. --Tarage (talk) 07:26, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

That's it? i have feel doubt on those.(Searcher0 (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 02:40, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Sock blocked.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 05:08, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Vandalism-only WP:GRUDGE account

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Can someone please block Memento2149? I have no idea who this user is (their edits and mimicry username seem to imply a WP:GRUDGE), but the account only exists to indiscriminately revert my edits. Much of my editing involves monitoring lesser-watched articles (which tend to be mainly edited by inexperienced users), so that may or may not explain this. DarkKnight2149 16:41, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Note that, for some odd reason, they just spammed my notifications by thanking me for all my edits on Manofsteel2149 (a joke WP:LEGITSOCK account of mine). This might not be a WP:GRUDGE, as much as it is a "fun and games" vandal. DarkKnight2149 16:45, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

And now they just thanked me for reverting their vandalism at Jigsaw (2017 film)... DarkKnight2149 16:46, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Blocked. Bishonen | talk 16:47, 27 August 2017 (UTC).

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Need a rangeblock

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I don't know exactly where to put this request, but several IP addresses have been vandalizing Harley-Davidson (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and they all belong to the 2607:fcc8:9380:9e00::/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) range. Can a block please be placed on this range? —MRD2014 ^{Talk • Edits • Help!} 11:58, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

 Done Blocked for one week by Alex Shih. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:29, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

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Question

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User:SkepticalRaptor seems to be saying on his userpage that he is dating Kirsten Dunst, this seems to be in jest, but isn't this similar to an unsourced BLP? Tornado chaser (talk) 02:43, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't see it. Have you tried talking to him before coming here. And this is not what this board is for. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 03:14, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

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Nicknames of Donald Trump

Looks like hours after article List of nicknames of Donald Trump was deleted via [18], article Nicknames_of_Donald_Trump was created. WP:G4?. Objective3000 (talk) 19:09, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

The article is definitely G4, deleted to Make Wikipedia Great Again. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:15, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Apologies for reopening a closed discussion on ANI. I think that someone higher up the food chain than I ought provide guidance to Keizers (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). The editor appears insistent upon adding rather gross nicknames for a living person on many articles. The last strawish thingy for me was citing an article discussing female genitalia on an article about a nursery rhyme. I'll provide diffs is needed; but, just look at their contribs. Or tell me I'm wrong and reclose. Objective3000 (talk) 00:30, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't think it's a big secret that I think Trump is an asshole, yet somehow I manage to refrain from disrupting articles to express this view. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:33, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Never give up hope, we can agree on some points, POV disruption and assholes :) - FlightTime (open channel) 13:36, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

The following three diffs are sufficient for any uninvolved admin to indefinitely topic ban Keizers (talk · contribs) from all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. I only just added that notification to the user's talk but I do not believe that is an impediment to a topic ban.

• the nickname Shitgibbon
• "Cheeto Jesus" and variations thereon
• real name was "Fuckface Von Clownstick"

Would an admin please stop the disruption. Johnuniq (talk) 10:35, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Hello there, a ban is not necessary, I have received the message. I would like to point out that no one at any time made it clear that it was not allowed to mention genuine RELEVANT events (e.g. the Twitter war between Jon Stewart and Trump). The REAL issue here seems to be that I must censor the offensive name in particular. I think you need to be absolutely clear to users about this. In any case the message is clear to me. Keizers (talk) 13:27, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Furthermore, I have just removed (censored) the offensive name in question from the Jon Stewart article. I did leave the mention of the Twitter war, please let me know if the entire subject must be removed from Wikipedia, due to its potentially being upsetting to our President. Thanks. Keizers (talk) 13:31, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah. Pointy sarcasm is almost guaranteed to help here, under the circumstances. Well done.-- Begoon 13:40, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

(ec) @Johnuniq: While the letter of WP:AC/DS#aware.aware does allow sanctioning of editors who have been made aware of DS but haven't edited since, it would be extremely unusual and, I suspect, quite controversial. They were alerted to BLP DS at 01:55 today, made twelve edits (all related to nicknames of Donald Trump but more than half of them to article talk or user talk) and then were alerted to AP2 DS at 11:20, since which time they haven't edited. While that does technically give us leeway under BLP DS, I don't think sanctions are appropriate right now.

@Keizers: you are clearly editing against consensus regarding nicknames of Donald Trump. Drop the stick now and go do something else, or there will be sanctions. Note after EC: I'm glad you've got the message. Leave it alone and let other editors sort it out. GoldenRing (talk) 13:34, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

A typo destroyed the ping @Johnuniq: GoldenRing (talk) 13:35, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Please also give me feedback regarding the editing of other articles e.g. Jon Stewart. Is it permissible to add content from secondary, reliable sources about relevant events (e.g. Twitter war with Trump), but simply NOT permissible to mention the insulting name that Stewart used? Keizers (talk) 13:41, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Feedback? Yeah, stop being a fool. We're mostly bored with that. -- Begoon 13:58, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Ad hominem attacks have no place here. Keizers (talk) 14:54, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

@Keizers: Go and read our policy on editing content related to living people. That something is verifiable in reliable, independent, secondary sources is not grounds for inclusion in an article. Verifiability is necessary for it to be included in an article, but not sufficient. In particular, when you add content related to a living person and someone reverts your edit, the burden is on you — not to demonstrate that the content you added is verifiable, but that there is consensus among editors for it to be re-added to the article. Where your edits related to living people are reverted, you must not re-insert them without getting consensus for the material (or, where an editor has objected on specific grounds, you must not re-insert them without genuinely addressing those grounds). Your edits to Jon Stewart have been reverted; you must not re-insert them without solid consensus behind them. You have taken the first step, by starting a discussion on the talk page; now let it play out. GoldenRing (talk) 14:13, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the constructive feedback. If I had had that guidance before, we could have saved a lot of time Keizers (talk) 15:05, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

@Begoon: I don't think personal attacks are going to help here, either. GoldenRing (talk) 14:13, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Fair comment. I phrased it very badly, and I apologise for that. My intent was to criticise the specific behaviour, not the person, and I obviously failed to do that. -- Begoon 05:05, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually, the Jon Stewart article is the only one where you may have an argument for inclusion as Stewart and Trump are having a bit of a tussle. (Although, I think it’s trivia at this point). OTOH. Trump is not having a battle with Humpty Dumpty and Cheetos’ mascot, Chester Cheetah. But, you’ll need to gain consensus on the Stewart talk page. Objective3000 (talk) 14:24, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually, on this article I'm not going to revert after the first unsubstantiated revert, as the reason given was "it doesn't belong here": I've removed the offensive term in question, but kept the mention of the Twitter war. I agree that some people might find it trivial (I do not), however no more so than half the article.Keizers (talk) 15:05, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

That was a lot of nicknames. I appreciate the time you spent gathering them. I'm not sure which ones are common. The inclusion criteria that they must be common is too restrictive. QuackGuru (talk) 15:31, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

See this. If Keizers cannot make a definite statement with explanation why he understands that edits like that one are totally inappropriate, I think it may be time to consider a topic ban on inserting the Donald's name anywhere. John from Idegon (talk) 20:54, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree with the above, especially on the President's nickname page. If you take time to look at the other Presidents listed on the page you find few negative nicknames associated with them, and nearly every President this country has ever had, has had negative nicknames. Take Ulysses Grant for instance. In military circles one of the most common names I've heard for him is "the Butcher", due to opinion that his solution to winning the Civil War was to simply continue throwing more and more men into the fray, with a massive increase in death on both sides during his command. This can be substantiated directly from his Wikipedia page, but you won't find that nickname on the President's nickname page. I feel sometimes a person has to take a step back and remove emotional negative feelings about a topic away in order to maintain neutral objectivity. I get it, I myself have strong opinions on topics, but Wikipedia needs to maintain indifference towards that sort of emotion.RTShadow (talk) 19:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

User:ChocolateTrain’s personal attack

Meow, my time was NOT wrong, as you very well know. You must also accept that, this time, my image was actually better and was 'time-stamped' correctly. You have absolutely no grounds for changing it, and providing a lie to justify yourself is deceitful.

I cannot agree if claiming someone ‘providing a lie to justify yourself is deceitful’ is not a personal attack, yet that person cannot provide any proof. However, I have proof of my timestamp that is based on NASA’s website. He also cannot provide proof of his image that ‘was actually better’, as his image is modified too much. In fact, mine has a better scale and ratio, and it looks more natural. People also voted for my Patricia image as a featured picture, so I cannot understand why someone would dislike my efforts very much. As he also described me as highly arrogant and supercilious in his talk page, this severe personal attack is definitely not his first time. I don’t come here for asking administrators to block him. I just hope administrators could do some actions to stop the conflict. 🐱💬 09:27, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Would agree with @Meow: after working with her for a few years, especially in the images part. She has made numerous amount of fantastic images in the TC community and have trusted her ever since for that. Regarding to this, I found the user's edit summary not pretty decent and don't really see these kind of comments around. This user has been having rough times and have a couple of issues since several weeks ago. Just atm I am still trying to see his actions. Typhoon2013 (talk) 09:34, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@Meow: Not notifying the user you are reporting and only notifying Typhoon2013 is inappropriate. I have notified ChocolateTrain of this thread. Please be more mindful of this in the future. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 09:41, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

So sorry about this. I never used the noticeboard before so I was not aware of. 🐱💬 10:14, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't mean to single you out for criticism, it's not an uncommon error. But there is really no excuse for ignorance about that given the big red box near the top of this page. Editors need to read the instructions before they use any board for the first time; they are there for a good reason. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Off topic and largely tongue in cheek diversion about infrastructure. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:03, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Maybe we need an "I acknowledge" checkbox like on license agreements when you install software. EEng 23:23, 24 August 2017 (UTC) You mean that checkbox that we always check without reading what we "acknowledge" to have read, just because we can't continue until we do? ―Mandruss ☎ 02:41, 25 August 2017 (UTC) You have a point. How about this: kind of like a CAPTCHA, except what they have to type is the words I have notified all users mentioned in this report. While we're at it, we can have them do a bit of algebra and answer some general-knowledge questions. This will prevent the dull and ignorant from opening threads. EEng 14:45, 25 August 2017 (UTC) Hilarious as usual. ANI's resident comedian. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:03, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it is a personal attack. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:06, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I've warned the user. If it repeatedly continues, please let me know or file a report. I think that, as of now, this is the best action to take - remind the user. If anybody disagrees, let me know. Otherwise, we should call this thread 'resolved'. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:11, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

While I dont disagree that it is a personal attack @Oshwah:, I think that @Meow:'s conduct should be looked into, as i feel that she has been rather bitey towards @ChocolateTrain:. I also feel that it is rich that Meow is compaining of personal attacks when she herself has launched attacks on other editors by caling their edits "Vandalisim" I would also like to remind Meow and @Typhoon2013: that anyone can become a member of Wikipedia, Commons or Wikipedia's tropical cyclone project and that its not some exclusive club that you have to have permission to join. I would like to see Meow continue editing whatever she likes though as she does do some good work, however, I am biased here as in Meow's own words, I am British and do not really know what is and isnt important.Jason Rees (talk) 16:33, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

If you feel that Meow's conduct should be looked into, it certainly can be done. We're expected to evaluate all relevant information and from all those involved (as you know). If you could respond with specific diffs and pages that concern you regarding Meow's conduct, it will be helpful. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:44, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

@Oshwah: Its the way she interacts with other users which alarms me more, take this discussion with @Supportstorm: as an example or these conversations with @ChocolateTrain:. I also happen to agree with @Jasper Deng:, when he calls it bikeshedding and its something that shouldnt be happening on Wiki.Jason Rees (talk) 10:48, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

• Whether "providing a lie to justify yourself is deceitful" is exactly and technical a personal attack is beside the point, it's clearly WP:UNCIVIL and WP:ASPERSION-casting, so it's still actionable. (See also WP:LAWYER, WP:SANCTIONGAMING.)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  00:14, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Is this something ANI can handle, or should I go straight to AE?

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At Talk:Hurricane Harvey#National Climate Assessment I provided sources from the United States Environmental Protection Agency and from the Draft National Climate Assessment, only to find multiple editors removing the sources and inserting material that directly contradicts those sources. Is this something ANI can handle, or should I go straight to AE? --Guy Macon (talk) 14:11, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Time to trot out all the tired old ANI cliches? "ANI doesn't do content disputes" is a venerable one. So is "you should notify the editors you're talking about". Probably others I'm forgetting, but I'm sure you know them as well as I do. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• This sounds very much like a content dispute, which neither ANI or AE would deal with. WP:Dispute resolution? --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:48, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• I took a quick look. As others have said, it looks like a content dispute. As boring as it sounds, the answer is to patiently argue it out in article talk towards a compromise. I might comment there later on if I get a chance. --John (talk) 16:19, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• To get a sanction at AE you would need to show that the other people concerned were aware of the sanctions in the topic area (if there are any - I'm not up on current ones regarding climate). So first step would be notifying them of the sanctions their edits are violating. Otherwise its a bog-standard content dispute. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:22, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
• Ha, the other side reported on AN. Please don't notify me. Drmies (talk) 17:08, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Crosslink to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Disruptive editors at Hurricane Harvey for them what care Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:09, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• If Hurricane Harvey is under AE enforcement then the talk-page needs to be tagged as such with rules about WP:1RR. That being said, I had nothing to do with this discussion/thread. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:13, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

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User:Jila9r

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Can someone look through Jila9r (talk · contribs) and Ramir1 (talk · contribs) contributions? I don't know what they are doing but I think we need some mass rollback. Adamtt9 (talk) 12:41, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

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Use of edit summaries

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Hello all. Just a note regarding edit summaries. Would I be correct that minor edits, such as changing a spelling or a date format, can be marked as minor, without a written edit summary? I only ask because Ritchie333 has pulled me up on it, by posting the "how to use an edit summary" template on my talkpage twice (the second time was as I removed it because I didn't need it). He used a subtle (and badly judged) threat of blocking the second time too. His rationale can be found here and User talk:Ritchie333#Edit summaries. Would appreciate your thoughts, either way. Cloudbound (talk) 18:11, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

What the hell, Ritchie? This is bizarre behavior, and quite unlike you. Dude has 12 years here and 44,000 edits, and no blocks, and uses edit summaries on all non-minor edits, and the minor edits with no summary actually are minor edits, and he removes a snotty template from you explaining how to use an edit summary (as if he doesn't know), and reverts you again when you revert him on his own talk page, and you threaten him with a block?! Can this be chalked up to having a bad day? Please do not do that anymore. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:20, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Cloudbound: I have a feeling that there is some missing context that I cannot seem to figure out from contribution history. Edit summaries are not required, but considered good practice for every edit (WP:EDITSUMMARY). The ill feeling toward template messages is not unjustified, but I am not sure if filing a report here at AN/I is a good idea. Alex Shih^Talk 18:23, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi Floquenbeam and Alex Shih, thanks for your replies. This is more about getting clarity on edit summaries from other admins than anything else. There is no further context - I edited Beiersdorf and London Waterloo station with minor edits and attracted his attention. Cloudbound (talk) 18:26, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Yup, it seems like I'm having a bad day, and there is no way I would block Cloudbound. Please accept my apologies. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:35, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Ritchie333. Hope it gets better. Cloudbound (talk) 18:36, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually the trigger was me edit conflicting with two editors on London Waterloo's article and getting annoyed about it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:42, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

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Repeated creation of blatant hoax articles by User:Psychotictp

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Psychotictp (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I just tagged a new article by this user for G3 speedy deletion as it was a blatant hoax. In doing so I looked at the user's talk page and saw that this user has been repeatedly creating similar blatant hoax articles over the past three weeks or so. A block may be needed to stop this. CJK09 (talk) 17:52, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Please block me

Please block my IP - my router seems to have been compromised. 24.91.249.202 (talk) 17:56, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

You have been blocked, following your page blanking spree. But I don't see any utility in most of your other edits to bridges, e.g. this one. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:58, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

The page blankings were done by an unauthorized person and I have not yet been blocked. I am requesting a block as someone has compromised my router and may be hacking me as I write this. Also, all of my legitimate edits were good faith and were not vandalism. 24.91.249.202 (talk) 18:01, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

So why did you add this? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:03, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

We don't have a template that says an account has been blocked temporarily, that is kind of the default template for that. It wasn't really meant for IPs but is still useful. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:11, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Eh? Vandalising IP's can just add it themselves, as a precursor to being blocked for real? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:18, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

An IP address cannot be 'compromised'. --Tarage (talk) 18:24, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

True, but a wi-fi router can be hacked allowing others to use it and appear at that IP. A CU can probably tell if two different PC's were using the same IP. Ravensfire (talk) 18:46, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

This is a very likely recurrence of Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/I Love Bridges from their edits and geo location (MA, close to their "base" in NH). RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:52, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Just seconding Rick, it is ILB -- There'sNoTime ^{(to explain)} 18:56, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Another Vandalism-only account

• Interstellar2149 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Not long after Memento2149 was blocked by Bishonen, a vandal with the exact same M.O. named Interstellar2149 began spamming my inbox with Thanks (which is still rapidly happening). Right now, I have over 20 thanks, which is rapidly growing. They haven't made any edits yet, but they are clearly WP:NOTHERE. DarkKnight2149 17:02, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Blocked. You must have really aggravated somebody. Bishonen | talk 17:05, 27 August 2017 (UTC).

@Bishonen: *Sigh* Here's another one (which just started spamming my inbox) - Inception2149 . If there are more after this, I'm opening an WP:SPI. DarkKnight2149 17:19, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

My inbox is still being flooded, just to let you know. Until the block, I will be keeping a close eye on their contribution history (in case the vandalism starts again). DarkKnight2149 17:38, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, this is taking the pish.Edgar181, are ye there for a block? — fortunavelut luna 17:47, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Indef blocked. -- Ed (Edgar181) 17:49, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I blocked Dunkirk2149 as an obvious sock. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:36, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

If their is another one, I'm just going to open an SPI. Their M.O. is fairly obvious, such as mimicking my username with references to Christopher Nolan's filmography, flooding my inbox, and vandalising articles by indiscriminately reverting as many of my edits as humanly possible. I have a sneaky suspicion that this user is tied to the "Clash of Clefairies" vandal, a user that impersonated me and DangerousJXD after I began assisting the latter. I say this because a few of the edits that they thanked me for were from DangerousJXD's Talk Page, despite the fact that they happened months ago and have been buried on my contributions log. As far as I know, they have been dormant since this edit. DarkKnight2149 18:50, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

User Pichku on article Carl Freer

A user User:Pichku has recently started editing the article Carl Freer. At first the edits appeared well intentioned and constructive, but the user has now started acting in a disruptive manner, reverting other changes, including clean up by bots and administrators back to the most recent of their edits. Attempts to communicate with the user in their talk page end up deleted without reply, and the user has started a section on the talk page seeking consensus, but not willing to consider that removing reliably sourced content is not a way to reach consensus. As there appears to be little interest in the page now, it might take more editors to convince the user of what a real consensus looks like. —Fugu Alienking (contribs) 11:16, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

This is a content dispute which Fugu is trying to avoid by doing this. In all my good faith, I have started a discussion on talk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Carl_Freer#WP:BLP_violating_edits_by_Fugu_Alienking

I have mentioned the BLP violations that Fugu made and only want to discuss how they are editing the article. I eventually noticed that from 2007 to 2017, Fugu's user history is only to revert Carl Freer (related articles) and another BLP (also related). This is single purpose editing. I have amended or redacted info that I thought oughta be discussed first due to BLP concerns. Please direct this person to a discussion page or enforce a discussion which they are avoiding. As I understand they should discuss reverts. BLP concerns should be discussed first. It would be a lie that I did not respond to their message on my talk page. They misused "disruptive editing" warnings on my talkpage but I did respond on the article talk page and edit summary. Every one can take a look at the article talk page in my discussion shown above. There is not one instance where they discuss merit of their sources and content. I clearly do discuss their BLP issues. --Pichku (talk) 11:23, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

This is indeed a content dispute - there are faults on both sides here, but fundamentally you both need to cool off and discuss the changes you're wanting to make. There are also definitely single purpose account issues here, so perhaps trying to expand on some other unrelated areas and letting a few more editors look at Carl Freer would help the situation? I see no admin action required in this report, but I will remind both Pichku and Fugu Alienking that edit warring will just end up in either a block or the article being fully protected - I don't want that to happen, so take a moment to read about some other dispute resolution -- There'sNoTime ^{(to explain)} 11:30, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

There may also be a conflict of interest that Fugu has not disclosed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fugu_Alienking They say they only met the subject in a lift but their editing on the article in 10 years span of time with no interest any where on wikipedia unrelated to this subject and related articles and single purpose editing only is what drove me to edit the article more and more. There'sNoTime, you can see that I have asked more than once on the talk page of the article inviting Fugu to discuss changes. I have been ignored and reverted. Just trying to learn how to handle him and I did not report him first because I dont have good faith. --Pichku (talk) 11:34, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

@Pichku: Absent any evidence of a conflict of interest which isn't just "casually knowing someone" I'm afraid we can't do anything. I would, on the subject of COI, assume good faith. As for asking Fugu Alienking to take part in a discussion, I can see they are involved at this thread. I think the best course of action for you would be heading to the third opinion page and asking for a review of the situation -- There'sNoTime ^{(to explain)} 11:38, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. My comment was on basis of their history only of 10 years. I am requesting Fugu's first opinion on their new edits on your mentioned thread before heading to 3O in good faith. --Pichku (talk) 11:46, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I appreciate your attempt to be fair by mentioning that there are faults on all sides, but I invite you to read the discussion on the talk page that has taken place so far and consider whether it supports this being a content dispute that could be resolved any time soon. The WP:3O process states that it requires both parties to use good faith on the talk page, but I do not see that now when one editor is immediately reverting changes, and replying to the two line talk page item about those changes stating that they don't have time to read the comment and will come back later to discuss. —Fugu Alienking (contribs) 14:01, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Per WP:BRD it's generally entirely resonable for someone to revert changes to a stable version that they disagree with or feel are a problem provided they engage in discussion in good faith and accept any consensus that results. I don't think it's unresonable to give someone time if they happen to be busy. A look at the talk page shows extensive discussion, so it's not like the editor is never discussing. While it's understandbly frustrating to have to wait when ou want to deal with something right now, please remember we are all volunteers (or should be since no one has declared a COI that I'm aware of) and there is no WP:Deadline. One exception, it is normally better to keep information out while discussion is ongoing if there are BLP concerns although in that case BLP should ideally be cited in the edit summary so people understand why the information is being removed. Note that unless there's something new, there's likely little point in the two of you discussing back and forth at this stage. I would suggest when both of you are free enough, it's time to seek outside help via some form of dispute resolution perhaps 3O. Nil Einne (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Denimadept

User:Denimadept keeps falsely accusing me of vandalism (making bad AIV reports against me) and keeps violating WP:BLANKING by forcefully restoring messages that I removed to my talk page. They have been warned by admin Oshwah but yet are still continuing. 24.63.117.181 (talk) 01:39, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I messaged you on your talk page, and had to leave a dummy edit to put a stop to the madness there... the IP is allowed to remove warnings from his own talk page. And I responded on my talk page asking for diffs in particular that show that he's been repeatedly violating policy - can you provide some for me? :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:44, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

If User:Denimadept thinks edit-summaries such as this are an acceptable restatement of policy- in spite of their over-decade's tenure- then that beggars belief. — fortunavelut luna 10:58, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, consider that User talk:24.63.117.181 isn't actually anyone's talk page; it's a talk page assigned to an IP address, which could be any number of actual users. It's helpful for recent warnings to editor(s) using that IP address to remain on its talk page. If the editor wants the full suite of user rights at Wikipedia, they should create an account.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:41, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Uh uh :) and when, after the doubtless lengthy RfC that would precede it, WP:UP is updated to reflect that rather radical distinction, that would indeed be the case. — fortunavelut luna 09:45, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't see how leaving the warnings there so they can be seen by others using the IP is helpful anyway, unless you mean it's helpful in case it was read by the wrong editor. But in that case it would still likely be seen as a net negative since if it's already been read by one wrong editor, it could be read by a bunch more before the right editor receives it, if ever. And it's not like leaving the notice ensures the nofication will stay so in reality even if the right editor does use the IP again they're probably not going to see the warning. More helpful is information about shared IPs which are already something which can't be removed. Nil Einne (talk) 19:43, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

ClueBot_NG on the blink again

Reporting here per the instructions at User:ClueBot NG. https://tools.wmflabs.org/cluebot/?page=View&id=3111972 is 404 (again). 82.132.186.208 (talk) 00:23, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I've been hacked

I'm andrewman327 and my account has been compromised for use in vandalism. I immediately reported to AIV to get the account blocked but now I want to work on restoring my access. I've previously verified my identity to Wikimedia for my OTRS work and would be happy to confirm my information or confirm who I am through my old email address.

Here's the email I received from Wikipedia: Someone, probably you, from IP address 2601:82:8200:2ad1:ad89:756e:3ec7:f905, has changed the email address of the account "Andrewman327" to "(Redacted)" on Wikipedia. If this was not you, contact a site administrator immediately.

207.172.90.114 (talk) 00:17, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I've blocked the account to prevent it from making further inappropriate edits. Unfortunately I can't help with restoring access to your account, though. —k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 00:20, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll draw this to the attention of the Functionaries list in case anyone there can help. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:24, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Andrew, you need to contact one of the stewards to help you regain control of your account. I've verified with CheckUser that your account does seem to have been compromised. I'm trying to contact a steward I know on IRC right now, and I'll send him here as soon as I can. Katie^talk 00:38, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Not sure even that will do the trick here, because the email address has been changed, so a new password cannot be generated and emailed out. Sorry, Andrewman327, but it is likely this account has been so compromised that it needs to stay blocked; you have an email that says the email address was changed, and there is good reason to believe the password has been changed as well. Risker (talk) 00:44, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Help

Not really sure how this works and I'm probably doing this the wrong way but the page landfall has child porn on it which is terribly disgusting and needs to be fixed before innocent people get in trouble — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.217.136 (talk) 03:29, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

The problem seems to have been fixed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:07, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Vancouver, Canada IP editor or editors and misuse of infoboxes

Page locked and no vandalism since then, nac, SwisterTwister talk 05:00, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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An anonymous editor appears to be having trouble understanding the purpose of certain infobox parameters. In the first case that I encountered, they had placed the full street address including postal code in infobox parameters intended for city, province, and country. When I fixed it, a different IP editor replaced it. So I fixed it again. And another IP editor put it back again. After that a fourth IP editor continued to edit war with another user. All of the IPs geolocate to Vancouver, Canada. Based on their edits, they appear to be controlled by the same person. Even when they are putting addresses in infoboxes where they would be appropriate (like this hotel) they are using the wrong parameter ("location" instead of "address"). They seem to have access to multiple IPs and have been doing this for some time. Some clean up of infoboxes is probably necessary. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 02:56, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

What do you want admins to do? --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 03:23, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I want admins to be aware of the situation. Maybe one of them will have an idea on how to deal with it. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 03:34, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

2001:569:70DD:7500:25FE:4A76:BFD4:CA3E (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is the latest IP to join the edit war. Blocking it is probably a waste of time. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 03:55, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I've enabled pending-changes protection on this article. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 04:33, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I was reporting a pattern of edits across a number of articles. Pending changes will solve the problem on the one article only. Perhaps someone could try their luck at repairing The Social (Canadian TV series) and The Marilyn Denis Show. I've given up on edit warring with recalcitrant IP editors. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 13:21, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• IP editing is awesome, I'm glad we allow it. Instant multiple accounts for net negative editors and vandals are very convenient! Carrite (talk) 15:52, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Please don't disparage IP editors. Having an account doesn't make one a better editor or a non-vandal. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 16:36, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure why street addresses are inappropriate. Is there a reason they need to be kept out of infoboxes?--Auric talk 17:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I was just reverted by Thomas.W, despite using the correct parameters. Seriously, what is the big secret?--Auric talk 17:48, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

@Auric: If there has been massive disruption on multiple articles (adding snail mail address and postal codes, with a false claim about there being a consensus for it) by an IP-hopper, edits that were reverted many times by multiple users and led to a couple of the articles being protected, doing the same edit as the IP-hopper did, without any prior discussion on the talk page of the article, isn't going to win you any friends, but will be seen as a continuation of the disruption. Your direct continuation of the IP-hopper's edits was reverted by me with the edit summary "Rv: see page history...", and I suggest you do that, and start a discussion on the talk page of the article to see if anyone supports you, instead of coming here. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 18:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. Will do--Auric talk 18:47, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

The problem was how the IP was adding the address. No one is trying to exclude anything (but addresses are generally not appropriate in articles). World's Lamest Critic (talk) 21:13, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Krissmethod behavior regarding Christianity and White Supremacy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Krissmethod (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Krissmethod had made wholly unsupported edits at white supremacy and David Duke and appears to have an issue regarding the overlap of Christian ideology with white supremacy. The edits on David Duke (first 3 diffs) are particularly egregious. Yesterday they edited white supremacy to remove reference to Christianity from the lead, and despite comments left on their talk page, they repeated the edit today (last diff).

Diffs in chronological order: [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24]

Note that this user was informed of DS regarding BLPs (by Doug Weller) and American Politics (by me) before making the edit today.

Given the repeat behavior, I think this user may be unable up constructively edit in certain topics. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:52, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't agree exactly with all his edits but where is the source that David Duke is any kind of Protestant Christian or that there is any solid link between white supremacists and any kind of Jesus following Christian? These people are polar opposites to everything Jesus taught his followers to be. Legacypac (talk) 07:05, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

@Legacypac: the info on religion for white supremacy is found within that article. While the info for Duke's personal religious affiliation is questionable (though he says the KKK is pro-Christian, and they have a history of being anti Catholic, so it's not a stretch to call them pro-Protestant), Duke certainly isn't part of "atheism" or "atheistic (sic) Satanism". It seems that the user feels Duke isn't a "real Christian". Whether they are, as you say, polar opposites is not up to us to assert but rather for RS. But to suggest he must be atheist is equally problematic. Again, my point in linking the Duke edits was to show a pattern of behavior regarding religion and White supremacy. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:37, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Uhm, Krissmethod last edited the David Duke article back in May? And IIRC there's a project-wide consensus that "religion" entries should be kept out of infoboxes anyway, isn't there? What exactly is this complaint about right now? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:18, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

The complaint is regarding the current disruption on white supremacy. The old edits were given as context to the issue since they appear related (both about Christianity and White supremacy). While the Duke edits are from May, this account is not very active and there are few intervening edits. My concern is the continued disruption on white supremacy. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:29, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise:, to add, the user continues to remove the content on white supremacy after this ANI was filed. See this edit. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:41, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

As I recall, the KKK, at least back in the day, was anti-Catholic. Why is it a stretch to remove "non-Christian" as Catholicism is a Christian religion?--Wehwalt (talk) 08:53, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll agree that the edits to White Supremacy are not exatly encouraging; however I'm not sure that four edits over a month (or, if you like, seven edits over four months) with no discussion at the article talk pages is cause to drag someone to AN/I (or AE, which would probably have been the right forum, if any, for this). GoldenRing (talk) 09:00, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

One can be Anti-Catholic without being Pro-Protestant (whatever that term implies). This is a content dispute and the OP is complaining about some edits that are actually correct. If the OP wants to resore the questionable material - like David Duke is a Christian - better find a very good source for that. I'd be shocked if any Christian church would have him as a member. Legacypac (talk) 14:03, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

@Legacypac: you're missing the point. I don't mind removing the religion parameter, but adding nonsense to it is not okay. And we don't ever need to prove someone's religion beyond their self identification anyway (WP:EGRS). He wants a "Christian nation" though.

@GoldenRing: between the egregious edits on David Duke, the edits on White Supremacy, and the general inactivity otherwise, it seemed appropriate to start an ANI to seek others' opinions on what, to be, appears to be a major POV issue. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:18, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• If others feel this ANI is premature or unwarranted, I will retract it. Just to be clear, this was a "I think others need to review this" kind of report to begin with. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:15, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mass deletions and edit warring across celebrity articles by Hillbillyholiday

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Noted issues

There are some recent mass deletions that I view as disruptive. As seen in the edit histories of the Jennifer Lawrence, Amanda Bynes, Megan Fox, Shia LaBeouf, Kanye West and Britney Spears articles, Hillbillyholiday has been mass deleting a lot of valid content from celebrity articles and edit warring over the matter with a number of editors; links are here, here, here, here, here and here. I addressed Hillbillyholiday about it on their talk page, stating, "Some of the content should perhaps be cut, but you should give editors a chance to assess these matters, especially when it's WP:GAs or WP:FAs involved, and especially when it's just an issue of trimming things and/or rewording things. Quotes can be summarized, for example. I am well aware that you cut things that you consider trivial or fluff, but Wikipedia editing is not supposed to be based on WP:IDON'TLIKEIT." Hillbillyholiday's response was that he or she is willing to listen, but that the content is "mountains of unimportant, irrelevant garbage" that "have reintroduced clear BLP violations and highly questionable sources" and that "The trouble is, most decent folk here are too scared of making drastic but necessary cuts, and too many articles are guarded by their creators, who are loathe to see anything go, often in the mistaken belief that because there is a star on the page it must be fine. Some of these bios got their 'GA' status nearly a decade ago and haven't been reassesed since. The whole concept of FA/GA is basically meaningless, and it's rather embarrassing having to use the terms in an argument, but if these articles are the best Wikipedia has to offer, or are seen as models for other bios, then we should all be ashamed." I stated that if Hillbillyholiday is willing to discuss, he or she would not be mass deleting non-BLP violating content without first addressing the matter on article talk pages and discussing it. He or she would not be edit warring all over the place. I also asked Hillbillyholiday what WP:BLP violations are the issue? I pointed to this Britney Spears deletion, for example, and commented: "In that edit summary, you stated that there is a WP:BLP violation. If so, then you should delete the WP:BLP violation, not delete chunks and chunks of material because you don't like it. We lose a lot of important material with these huge chunks you make to these articles. Overquoting is easily remedied." I also noted that I get Hillbillyholiday's point about WP:GAs and WP:FAs, but "WP:OWN is clear about treading carefully on WP:FA articles. In a lot of these cases, it doesn't matter that the article reached WP:FA years ago. There is still the fact that a lot of care went into these articles, including a lot of discussion about how they should be formatted."

When there is back and forth edit warring, and content deletion without giving editors a chance to justify their edits, and when some editors can barely catch their breath because they watch a number of these articles, I just don't see how these mass deletions are helpful (unless cutting WP:BLP violations and/or unencyclopedic content). Pinging the following involved editors: SNUGGUMS, FrB.TG, Krimuk2.0, Mattbuck, Sundayclose, RektGoldfish and FlightTime. I'm sure there are more editors, but I haven't yet looked at all the other recent deletions Hillbillyholiday has made and whether there have been objections and edit warring regarding them. Also, Hillbillyholiday already knew that I would be starting this thread. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:45, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I was only involved with the Jennifer Lawrence page. Regardless of overall article quality, Flyer is right that mass deletions (except for things like blatant BLP violations) should at least be discussed beforehand. Edit warring only makes things worse. I thought about bringing Hillbilly to WP:AN3 for it, but wasn't sure at the time if the user had reverted enough to warrant a block. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:12, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for this thread. It's particularly outrageous when such mass deletion is done for high-quality FA-class articles, and in the case of Lawrence, when it was featured on the bloody main page! On top of that, taking a snarky dig at my support for feminism is outrageous. I understand if this editor has issues with the sexualisation of women in mainstream media, but does Hillbilly really think that attacking well-meaning editors will help solve the issue? --Krimuk2.0 (talk) 06:40, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I have nothing new to add here, my comments can be seen at Hillbillyholiday's talk, I am here to support Flyer22 Reborn concerns and the starting of this thread. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:49, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I had problems with Hillbillyholiday on Amanda Bynes, where Hillbillyholiday removed the "Personal life" section almost in it's entirety (about one-third of the article). Hillbillyholiday's only explanation was in an edit summary: "way too much coverage of mental health issues, perhaps deserves reporting but briefly and in a sensitive manner with good sources". This subject's mental health issues have been in the forefront of her public life for the last five years; she has not worked as an actress for the last seven years. The content that Hillbillyholiday removed was sourced to NBC News, CBS News, and the L.A. Times, among others. Hillbillyholiday has not made any attempt at discussion. Hillbillyholiday has deleted the same content four times in the last three days, including the most recent revert of RektGoldfish. Hillbillyholiday seems to have ownership issues with a number of articles; when told that there might be a discussion here, Hillbillyholiday's response was "I doubt I'll be participating". Sundayclose (talk) 16:19, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, per that response, I don't think Hillbillyholiday is taking the problems others have expressed with his or her mass deletions seriously. Like I recently stated, "That supposed lack of concern, as though it's fine and dandy to keep doing this, is one of the problems. [...] Hillbillyholiday's reasons are not always very good. Hillbillyholiday often removes stuff on a WP:IDON'TLIKEIT basis, which is not how we should edit. See this dispute at Talk:Jennifer Lawrence? I agree with those who challenged Hillbillyholiday. Some stuff that Hillbillyholiday removes is very relevant and should be retained or simply trimmed or reworded, not deleted altogether. Some may not like that Jennifer Lawrence is a sex symbol, but it is a part of her notability and public image. For some removals across these articles, I don't think that Hillbillyholiday is completely in the wrong, but I do think that he or she is often going about them in the wrong way. When multiple editors disagree and are reverting you, for example, you should not keep removing the content unless there is some WP:BLP violation or some other serious issue. Edit warring is disruptive, and edit warring against multiple editors usually results in that lone editor getting blocked; so, if the editor does have a valid case for the deletions, then nothing is resolved except for the disruption.'" Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:58, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

SNUGGUMS, FrB.TG, Krimuk2.0, Mattbuck, Sundayclose, RektGoldfish and FlightTime, it's likely that the best thing to be done in this case is report Hillbillyholiday's edit warring at the WP:Edit warring noticeboard. As seen with this edit, Hillbillyholiday has reverted yet again, this time at the Shia LaBeouf article, despite the section I started at the Shia LaBeouf talk page. Hillbillyholiday clearly thinks he (or she) can do what he (or she) wants in this case, as is clear by the editor still taking hatchet jobs to articles and not even bothering to comment here. Hillbillyholiday is clearly waiting for this WP:ANI thread to blow over. If none of you want to start the case at the WP:Edit warring noticeboard, I will. After that, you all can weigh in there. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:25, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

(It's he.) Martinevans123 (talk) 12:09, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

User has been reported at AN3. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 00:51, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: When someone's edit history comes up a sea of undiscussed massive deletions [25], including of cited information, and undiscussed (or snarkily and dismissively discussed) edit-wars to keep the material deleted, that's a problem. If it doesn't stop, I suggest a topic-ban on direct editing of BLPs (at least until the crusade dies down). Softlavender (talk) 13:01, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Really? You'd keep stuff like this? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:08, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

That's not a massive deletion. And we all know that the Daily Mail is a poor source for WP:BLPs; it's been discussed to death, after all, and we had a big RfC on it earlier this year. Hillbillyholiday started that RfC. The problem is the massive deletions of non BLP-violating material by Hillbillyholiday and edit warring over it. Hillbillyholiday has a very strict and over-the-top view on what BLP violations are, and it all started around the time a certain editor/administrator was recklessly removing content sourced to People magazine and similar and Hillbillyholiday was emboldened and jumped on the bandwagon. Hillbillyholiday was wrong then, and he (or she) is often wrong now. A lot of decent content is lost because of Hillbillyholiday's odd views of WP:BLP and also because Hillbillyholiday simply removes anything he or she does not like. And the editor is still edit warring. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:12, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

You know what, I'm done with this editor, their constant "I know what's best" attitude and WP:OWN issues are too much. I suggest they replace the {{retired}} on their talk and take it to heart. - FlightTime (open channel) 14:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Flyer, you have said that it is fine to have a section on a BLP entitled "Mental health" which uses sources such as msn.com and usmagazine.com to provide facts about the subject's "depression", "paranoia", hospitalization, and diagnoses. (Talk:Kanye_West#Recent_deletions)

You think saying someone had a "public meltdown" in Wikipedia's voice is acceptable. (WP:BLP/N#Britney Spears)

Forgive me if I don't put much store by your comments when it comes to appropriate sourcing for BLPs. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 14:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Not sure how anyone can evaluate the sourcing on these articles so fast. --Moxy (talk) 14:43, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Hillbillyholiday, so you have finally graced us with your presence. Like I relayed before, get your story right when reporting on what I've stated. To repeat what I stated at the WP:Edit warring noticeboard: "As for the Kanye West matter, I clearly stated [...] The sources for the Mental health section of the West article are solid, except for one source. The sources are WP:BLP-compliant. So I am right about the sourcing. Whether or not the content should stay is another matter." I did not state that the section was fine. I stated that sources in that section are WP:BLP-compliant. I also stated that I had been concerned about the section before and had almost removed it. I also stated "we can ask about it at the WP:BLP noticeboard." If we are judging the section purely on sources, those sources, except for consequenceofsound.net, are fine. Here is a Billboard source from the section; it notes that West stated that he contemplated suicide. Not a WP:BLP violation. This The Los Angeles Times source states that West was persuaded by authorities to commit himself to a hospital. Not a WP:BLP violation. This Entertainment Tonight source states that West is formally undiagnosed. Not a WP:BLP violation. And this CNN source states that West was released from the hospital. Not a WP:BLP violation.

And I've explained the Spears matter well enough.

Stop trying to make it seem as though your massive deletions are normally removing egregious BLP violations and therefore you should not be sanctioned; that simply is not the case. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:59, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I never said CNN, Billboard, et al. were unreliable or BLP violating -- stop putting words in my mouth. I simply asked whether msn.com and usmagazine.com were acceptable sources for a subject's mental health issues, and you said they were ok. You also reckon "meltdown" (source: MTV) is a suitable descriptor. If you can't see how these opinions are problematic, I think you may need a topic-ban from BLP-related articles. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 15:22, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

And how exactly is MSN a BLP-violating source? Same goes for Us Weekly. Like I stated to you before, Us Weekly is the same category of sourcing as People magazine, which I remind you yet again was deemed to be generally fine for WP:BLPs. As I noted back then, that People RfC should not have focused solely on People since the disagreement was about People magazine and sources like it.

And, as you have no doubt seen, EdJohnston has also stated that he does not consider the Spears matter to be a WP:BLP violation.

The only topic ban here should be yours. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:32, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• My recent edits speak for themselves. I'm done here. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 15:37, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

You state that you are done, but I guarantee that you are going to wait for this matter to cool down and then start up your disruptive deletions and edit warring again, which is why I think that EdJohnston or some other administrator should propose an immediate block if (rather when) you start back up again. The slap on the wrist is not enough. I've seen this type of disruption from a number of editors. They almost always start back up again after things have cooled down. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:42, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment Hillbillyholiday does and has done valuable work in refining and enforcing our most important rule. While I recognise that the intentions of Flyer22 Reborn are undoubtedly good, edits like this one and this one are problematic (note the edit summary on the latter). I caution this user that they are likely to be blocked if they attempt to edit-war material that they themselves acknowledge breaches BLP into articles. There are better ways to challenge a deletion that you disagree with. --John (talk) 19:30, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• • Thank you John for putting this into the correct perspective. He "does and has done valuable work in refining and enforcing" and it is out of order to label him as a vandal; little doubt why so many well-intentioned, enthusiastic editors walk away from Wikipedia. Cheers! Gareth Griffith‑Jones (The Welsh Buzzard) 20:02, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• • • John, you are WP:INVOLVED. Should I point to all of the ways that you are WP:INVOLVED, like Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive812#User:John and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons (WP:BLPs), or User talk:Flyer22 Reborn/Archive 14#Continuing disruption by User:John on biography articles, or this comment from I JethroBT noting the following: "John's arguments were not persuasive during the RfC and they shouldn't be elsewhere if that is the basis for disagreement."? A number of editors, including NeilN, Binksternet, NE Ent, Rivertorch, Johnuniq and Herostratus were of the opinion that you either acted disruptively and/or were WP:INVOLVED when it came to me. So I was waiting for you to show up since it was your massive deletions and misguided BLP assertions, as seen in that ANI case, that inspired Hillbillyholiday's disruption. It was also you, as the sole editor, who voted "No" to People magazine, while everyone else voted "Yes."

Neither this nor this are WP:BLP violations. In the latter case, the only supposed BLP violation that Hillbillyholiday noted is "public meltdown," but editors, including EdJohnston, disagree with Hillbillyholiday that use of "public meltdown" is a BLP violation in the case of the breakdown/meltdown that Spears acknowledges she had.

So nice try when it comes to trying to point the finger in my direction. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:05, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Mmmm. So what did A lot of this is not WP:BLP violations in any way. Do stop mass deleting content, especially on WP:GAs or WP:FAs. mean then? I suggest you modify your own behaviour, or it'll get you blocked. I can't really make it any simpler than that. --John (talk) 20:13, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, so you interpret me stating "A lot of this is not WP:BLP violations in any way" as stating that there were some BLP violations in the content? I was not. I was giving Hillbillyholiday the benefit of the doubt even though I did not see any BLP violations. And, as we can see, the only "BLP violation" he cited is "public meltdown," which is something others do not agree is a BLP violation. And even if there had been a BLP violation, it does not justify his mass deletions at that article. That is why both FlightTime and Softlavender also reverted. It is why EdJohnston stated, "If it turns out that Hillbilyholiday engages in edit warring on other articles such as Shia LaBeouf, then someone could file a new AN3 report specifying that article. Massive content removal from BLP articles on the grounds of general article quality isn't supported by WP:3RRNO as an exception to our edit warring rules. Such removals need editor consensus."

So your threat of blocking me is uncalled for. Not only that, it is in direct conflict with the WP:INVOLVED policy. Just like all those years ago with your silly threats about blocking me over use of People magazine, you are back to threatening me. I see that you haven't changed. And let's not pretend that you are talking about someone else blocking me; your tone, including in your edit summary, clearly shows that you intend to be the one doing the blocking. I suggest you modify your line of thinking, or otherwise be sanctioned for administrative abuse. Any block you throw on me would be undone in a matter of minutes. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:32, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining what your edit summary meant. As for the rest of it, you've been warned and should now either retire and reconsider or save it for the unblock request. Your choice. I won't reply to you again here. --John (talk) 20:44, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

So not only do you not admit that you are wrong, you double down on your block threat? I repeat: A number of editors found you to be wrong all those years ago and noted that you are WP:INVOLVED when it comes to me. You were wrong all those years ago. And you are wrong now. You have not at all shown how Hillbillyholiday is in the right. You are simply here making baseless threats that are obviously unbecoming of an administrator, all because of your silly grudge and your skewed interpretation of what BLP violations are. You really think you are untouchable, don't you? You remember that NeilN was one of the main editors challenging you before, right? You do know that he is an administrator now, don't you? Do you think that he would not unblock me if you blocked me? Because I'm willing to bet that he would. I've been waiting for you to retire for years, but we can't all get our wish. Either way, block me and see what happens. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:59, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Flyer22, I am very surprised to hear this kind of taunting coming from you. Drmies (talk) 21:53, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I think it's understandable when dealing with taunting such as "I suggest you modify your own behaviour, or it'll get you blocked. I can't really make it any simpler than that." and "you've been warned and should now either retire and reconsider or save it for the unblock request. Your choice. I won't reply to you again here." Both of the comments make it seem like I was the one being wholly disruptive and that I am a detriment to BLP articles. John did all this years ago because I was using and defending People magazine. It took NeilN starting an RfC about People magazine to stop the block threats (John's misguided threats to block me) and John's mass deletions of material sourced to People magazine. And now he's portraying this matter as though Hillbillyholiday is in the right and that I'm halting Hillbillyholiday's good contributions, despite all evidence to the contrary, including what EdJohnston stated at the WP:Edit warring noticeboard. I think you've seen me be frustrated before; my above responses to John are tame in comparison to some things I've stated about him before. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:05, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• There has to be a middle way here. EdJohnston says the Britney Spears material isn't a BLP vio; I take them at their word. However, it is hard to deny that even the non-BLP violating material in these articles is just egregiously excessive, and even when not sourced to the Daily Mail or papers like that, it's gossip tabloids. No one, least of all me, wants to go through those articles and their endless chatter about boyfriends and girlfriends and whatnot, though I did remove the names and dates of birth of children in Megan Fox--even if verified, that kind of information is just totally unnecessary; "leave the children out of it" is a matter of convention, as far as I'm concerned. And while Hillbillyholiday may have been guilty of 3RR, we should note that in Amanda Bynes none of his reverters had a decent explanation--"read BRD" is not a decent explanation, it's just tag-teaming. I reverted the last editor, who also gave no explanation, and who seems to have no interest on Wikipedia besides that one single person (a lot of this stuff is just creepy, really).

  We should really look better at such content. "Not a BLP violation" does not mean that certain BLP info should be in our articles. "It's verified" (by People, US Weekly, etc.) doesn't mean it should be included. Even if HBH is incorrect in this or that article, he is not an idiot r a vandal and should be taken seriously. Drmies (talk) 22:05, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I wholly agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:08, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
• Hear, hear. We are not a bureaucracy and should be careful of any tendency to force an editor with clue and taste away in favour of retaining creepy tabloid kludge about "celebrities". Be better if no tools had to be used but looking at some of the behaviour, my hopes aren't high. --John (talk) 22:12, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Drmies, I agree that we should not be including any and everything. I certainly was not arguing that. I have made big cuts at celebrity articles over the years, but not in a way that anyone has deemed disruptive. And the cuts were never based on me simply not liking the content. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

As for Amanda Bynes, Sundayclose (above) did give a rationale for reverting Hillbillyholiday, before Hillbillyholiday had responded on the talk page at the WP:BLP noticeboard. I haven't been involved with the Amanda Bynes article, but I do think that the content should have been significantly trimmed instead of deleted completely. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:33, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I tend to agree with drmies here, a lot of the stuff that goes into some of our pop culture articles is often entirely too much detail and reads like a gossip sheet rather than an encyclopedia. It appears that things have become a bit entrenched on both sides, but calling each other vandals isn't going to help matters. Try discussing the actual content and justifying why it needs to be included rather than being upset that another editor has removed it. The world will not end if something gossipy stays out of an article for a while ...Ealdgyth - Talk 12:11, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Ealdgyth, thanks for weighing in. Discussion, or at least discussion first, is what I and others are asking of Hillbillyholiday. Look at the aforementioned Jennifer Lawrence discussion. Editors were trying to discuss/reason with Hillbillyholiday, but he kept reverting. And that article is FA, and it didn't become FA years ago; it became FA earlier this year. Experienced editors brought that article to FA by working together, and more care should be taken with FA articles. Like I stated at the WP:Edit warring noticeboard, Hillbillyholiday is only interested in discussing if his version of the article is in place, or if he intends to revert again anyway. It often takes Hillbillyholiday being reverted by multiple editors before Hillbillyholiday even decides to take the matter to the talk page. Although editors tried to reason with Hillbillyholiday at the Jennifer Lawrence talk page, it is like he was not truly listening and was bent on having things his way. See Krimuk2.0's account above; Krimuk2.0 was insulted by Hillbillyholiday in one instance. The content being cut at these article is not simply gossip; a lot of it is a part of what has made these celebrities notable or is a significant aspect of their notability or public image. One aspect of Lawrence's public image is the view that she is physically attractive. And Amanda Bynes is known more for legal troubles than acting these days. I am not opposing cutting gossip; I am opposing sweeping, drastic cuts, especially when they include material that should be retained, and edit warring to keep the cuts in place. I edit with editors who make significant cuts; SNUGGUMS is one, but SNUGGUMS is always pleasant to work with, even when we disagree. SNUGGUMS takes the time to listen. And, like I recently stated, is one the best editors we have keeping these celebrity articles in check. At John's suggestion and my support, the Britney Spears article is now undergoing a WP:GA reassessment started by SNUGGUMS. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:06, 21 August 2017 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:11, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Flyer22 Reborn, please forgive me for commenting. I already said that I wouldn't, as I have had no involvement in those particular articles. But can't we all now agree that the deleting and reverting behavior that you have raised here has now stopped? Or are you now seeking some kind of punitive action to be taken against Hillbillyholiday? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:29, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Martinevans123, I stated above (my "15:42, 20 August 2017 (UTC)" post) and at the WP:Edit warring noticeboard that I think that Hillbillyholiday will resume this behavior. For years, I've seen editors do this -- stop the disruptive behavior and let the matter cool down and then resume afterward. I've seen Hillbillyholiday do this as well; he is no stranger to slow-burn edit wars. Hillbillyholiday has shown time and again that he believes that he is right and that everyone else is wrong and that he will continue to make sweeping deletions even at the objections of multiple editors, sometimes incorrectly citing that there is a WP:BLP violation. So I stand by my earlier statement that I think that an administrator should propose an immediate block if (rather when) Hillbillyholiday starts back up again. But I know that since he has stopped the disruption for now, it is likely that this thread will be closed with no action. I have no doubt that we will be back here again in the future, however. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:49, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Are you now seeking some kind of punitive, or "pre-emptive", action to be taken against Hillbillyholiday now? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:19, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I wasn't going to reply, but since FinalPoint1988 pinged me below, I'll go ahead and state that I feel that I've been clear on what I think should happen. Yes, I believe that Hillbillyholiday should receive a stern warning to not engage in this type of disruption again; this affected multiple articles, not just one. But, again, I am not expecting that any action will be taken since Hillbillyholiday has gone into temporary hiding. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:18, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

So sad to see such overreactions between established/very valuable contributors such as Hillbillyholiday, Flyer22 Reborn, Martinevans123 and John; like Gareth Griffith-Jones said, such things can trigger the sudden absence of great editors like Hillbillyholiday (also an overreaction), In my personal POV, if some established editor removes some "doubtful material" in the future, (providing good reasons in the summary), it would be a good idea to take the matter to the talk page, before reverting him/her, I agree with Drmies, not all the sourced info should be included, there are tons and tons of fan sites and gossip magazines for such chattery...and of course, none of you is a vandal for reverting others..Take it easy...and happy to see Flyer, John and SNUGGUMS taking actions on the matter. FinalPoint1988 (talk) 15:47, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I'm not quite sure how my input counts as "overreaction". I was just seeking some clarity. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:51, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

And I certainly don't view my and others' views of Hillbillyholiday's disruption to be overreactions either. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:18, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I am seeing 1RRs (Hillbillyholiday removes 1 or more large segments, someone restores all or partial, Hillbillyholiday removes again, another restores, and that's it, no more reverts), so I'm not sure if this is necessarily edit warring. I think it is appropriate BOLD behavior on BLPs with questionable material, but not the type of BLP material that 3RR exemptions would apply to (that is: it is sourced, and not necessarily contentious, but is it really appropriate/necessary to include in a BLP?) I think Hillbillyholiday should be trouted to avoid the 1RR and take to talk page when things are reverted, or better, take to talk page after removing such large parts of the article, just to let other editors know their concerns beyond the scope of an edit summary message, but the removals all do appear to be within proper good faith of what BLP is meant to help protect. --MASEM (t) 15:57, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

The number of reverts by Hillbillyholiday at Britney Spears (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Amanda Bynes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) show differently. And WP:Edit warring is not defined solely by WP:3RR anyway. And it has been applied to edit warring across multiple articles. As for things that should be retained, I stand by my "13:06/13:11, 21 August 2017" commentary above. And I see that editors are disagreeing at the WP:BLP noticeboard regarding the Amanda Bynes case. I am pleased that TonyBallioni took the time to analyze the matter and restore some of the material. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:18, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Short break and back at it - FlightTime (open channel) 22:35, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

The user has mass deleted sourced information on the page for Jeremy Meeks and due to multiple edits, it's not possible to revert back the information that's been deleted. AnonUser1 (talk) 02:47, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Of course it's "possible to revert". One would simply edit and save the version prior to the consecutive edits, or use Twinkle's "revert to this version", with an edit summary. Simple. Of course, I'm not saying you should do that - you should talk about it first - I'm just saying that your implication that multiple, consecutive edits make reversion harder isn't really correct. You had 8 consecutive edits just prior to Hillbilly's 4, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. -- Begoon 11:36, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I would strongly recommend anyone wishing to retain their editing privilege not to revert this series of edits. I'll go further; anyone who even thinks this was a loss to the article should not be anywhere near a BLP article. John (talk) 17:12, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

@John: Regardless if you're correct or not it is very un-administrator like to make a blatant community threat such as this. Are you open to recall ? And before anyone goes off on me, I've been here almost 9 years and this is the first (and last, hopefully) time I've called anyone anything. - FlightTime (open channel) 17:23, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Community threat? This is me doing the job I was chosen to do! The tabloid trash that was removed from this article on a living person should never have been put there. Removing it was a good thing. Restoring it would be a bad thing, and knowingly restoring it would be a blockworthy act. If you genuinely don't know good from bad, or what BLP means, it's far better to stay completely away from biographies of living people. John (talk) 17:39, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I happen to think John is right here. And I'm pretty sure we can't say "regardless" like that? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:59, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Hillbillyholiday is back to removing a lot of material that he does not like, such as at Rihanna (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), but it can be argued that the material he removed at the Rihanna article needed a significant trim. The Jeremy Meeks stuff was sourced to a lot of tabloid sources -- sources that the Wikipedia community has repeatedly deemed unsuitable for BLPs. So Hillbillyholiday is making some good edits; I never disputed that. It's the sweeping/indiscriminate removals, edit warring and incorrect BLP justifications I have had (and still have) an issue with. As long as he is willing to discuss more and revert less (unless a serious BLP issue is occurring), I don't think that there will much of an issue. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:15, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I think that was "a lot of material that nobody likes very much"? It looks like you may soon be asking for this thread to be closed? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:13, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the Rihanna article, I can't judge the material that way since it was added there, presumably, by a number of editors and had been there for some time. So it seems to me that some people care(d) about the material. Maybe even a lot of people since the subject is Rihanna. When it's substantial material, even if about a lot of tattoos, I think it is often better to discuss the removal first. See again what SNUGGUMS stated above. In some cases, some features of a celebrity have received substantial media attention and are a part of that celebrity's public image. In the Rihanna case, I would not have added that much detail about her tattoos; I would have perhaps named a few, the ones which seem most relevant, judging by sources on the topic, and included a bit of author commentary on the matter and a bit of commentary from her, if available. I take more of an analytical and WP:Preserve approach, assessing whether or not the particular aspect is significant with regard to the subject or whether it is WP:Undue. Not just for celebrity articles, but for all types of articles.

As for this thread, I obviously still think there are issues with Hillbillyholiday's editing; so I don't regret starting this thread. And I do think there will be problems with Hillbillyholiday's big deletions in the future. So I won't request that the thread be closed. Be patient. It will either be closed or be archived without being closed. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:21, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I think you make some very cogent, reasonable and valid points there. I'm not sure Rihanna's tattoos are worth preserving in an encyclopedia but, hey, what do I know. I guess there's a place for most things. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:29, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

It seems to me that Hillbillyholiday has a fundamental issue of not understanding WP:BLP guidelines and in, fact, not understanding basics of Wikipedia. Please see the complaint about BLP noticeboard on Amanda Bynes, in which Hillbillyholiday pastes the part he/she wants deleted (which was the entire personal life section) and includes its 24 sources, yet calls it, "A blow-by-blow and primary-sourced account of her troubles, with no perspective, no attempt to summarize or weave it into the story of her career. No decent secondary sources." However, there is not a single primary source included, so it appears he/she does not understand what that means. He/she says "No decent secondary sources" although the majority of the sources are from The Los Angeles Times, and others includes CBS News and NBC News. These are among our most reliable of reliable secondary sources. Additionally, Hillbillyholiday complains that there is "no perspective, no attempt to summarize or weave it into the story of her career" — it is NOT our place to "add perspective" or weave these events into the story of her career!!!! This is not what we do in Wikipedia and especially not for WP:BLP. I don't know if there is some kind of Wikipedia101 course Hillbillyholiday can take but I would suggest a topic ban because it appears to be some sort of crusade based on the edit warring and mass deletions without discussions. —Мандичка^YO 😜 00:29, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Wikimandia (МандичкаYO), Hillbillyholiday did recently remove a lot of material that he did not feel like sorting out. As noted on that article's talk page, Tenebrae, TonyBallioni and I will be working on that matter, trying to save some material, per the WP:Preserve policy. Some of what Hillbillyholiday removed in this case were valid removals; so I didn't revert. I simply asked for outside help. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:39, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Since I was pinged: policy is that we get consensus for restoration of material that has been challenged even if it is verifiable, not vice versa (see WP:ONUS, part of WP:V, which is our most core content policy). In BLPs, I think this policy makes even more sense. The consensus at BLPN was that the removal of the content from Bynes was largely justified: we're working towards restoring some of it in line with the BLP policy, but even the small parts I restored were not universally uncontroversial. Re: the behavior as a whole, I agree that this seems like a trend of being BOLD without discussion. At the same time sometimes it is a lot easier towards working to restore from history, especially with BLPs. I'd encourage Hillbillyholiday to be more conservative with their removals, and if they feel the need to blank for BLP concerns to immediately open a talk page discussion or BLPN discussion to see what people can reach consensus to include. This seems to be the best way to manage the tension between ONUS and PRESERVE in these cases, especially when there are legitimate BLP concerns. I also don't see any need for sanctions at this time. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:58, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Obviously the articles can always be improved (ie add better sources, and cutting out stuff that as time has passed we can see it's not really of any real importance, etc), but Hillbillyholiday is removing huge chunks of articles because WP:IDONTLIKEIT and because he/she apparently has no understanding of what reliable sources are and wants it included "with perspective added." This is the behavior that needs to be addressed, otherwise this cycle will continue and we will be right back here again. Hillbillyholiday needs a tutorial in what reliable sources are and what the difference is between primary and secondary sources, and to understand that we are not here to "add perspective" on incidents that occurred and "weave them into stories." Bold edits made out of ignorance of Wikipedia rules are not helpful. It would be like if I went to an article on some physics theorem and removed six paragraphs because the way it was written made it too complicated and I had never heard of those journals cited, and then put the onus on other people to have to explain on the talk page why it belonged in the article. You think they would allow that? Of course not. And it shouldn't be allowed here either. —Мандичка^YO 😜 01:23, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting, TonyBallioni. And, again, thanks for helping. When it comes to preserving content via pulling material from the edit history, my concern, as was my concern with a blanking case I brought to WP:ANI last year, is that many editors do not check the edit history for material that has been removed. I might look on the first page for material that may have been removed, for example. But I usually don't look pages back unless I know that I'm looking for something. This has been an issue when it comes to preserving content, which is why editors advise others to preserve the material by posting it, or a link to it, on the talk page (except for any of the BLP violations, that is). But, really WP:Preserve states, "Fix problems if you can, flag or remove them if you can't. Preserve appropriate content. As long as any facts or ideas would belong in an encyclopedia, they should be retained in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:12, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

As for WP:ONUS, there was recently a big debate about that. I stayed out of it. But I do not think WP:ONUS can support an editor going to an article and removing what they want and us not being able to revert until we make our case. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more articles in bad shape. I haven't seen WP:ONUS work that way. I have seen it work in the opposite direction -- an editor attempting to add content to an article and multiple editors disputing the content, and the onus being on that editor to justify inclusion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:42, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I didn't realize Hillbillholiday's behavior was so egregious. He removed an entire, profusely cited Personal-life section at Tila Tequila with the outrageous edit summary "not worth sorting out". Just because one editor can't be bothered to "sort out" something doesn't mean he can unilaterally remove a huge, cited biographical section. If that editor doesn't want to "sort it out," no one requires him to. Others may choose to do so. If there are specific uncited personal-life claims, we remove them, obviously. But we do not summarily erase entire sections because we're too lazy to "sort it out" or to ask other editors for help. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:58, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Many Wikipedia articles contain material on people who are not well known, even if they are notable enough for their own article. In such cases, exercise restraint and include only material relevant to the person's notability, focusing on high-quality secondary sources.

I do generally look out for better sources when improving a section but the "Personal life" of Tila Tequila is of little to no importance. Any valuable information can be incorporated into an career section if needs be. Where were the required high-quality secondary sources? Answer: There were none. Or maybe you happen to agree with Wikimandia's frankly laughable and rather insulting comment that I need "a tutorial in what reliable sources are and what the difference is between primary and secondary sources"? --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 15:19, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps you can outline what your belief of a secondary source is? To some (me included), you have an odd focus on secondary sources. Review your commentary at the Jennifer Lawrence talk page and what others stated to you about secondary sources. If, for example, a celebrity's legal troubles are reported in high-quality news sources, why are you expecting the material to be covered in academic sources? Most of the book sources on celebrities are unauthorized biographies, tell-all books, or some other type of book source that is of relatively poor quality. For celebrities, the best sources are going to be media sources. So what type of secondary sources are you expecting? Even in the case of our political articles, most of the sources are going to be media sources because either the books haven't caught up and/or the editors have not thought to replace the media sources with book sources, or they don't see the need to replace them. You stated that you "do generally look out for better sources when improving a section," but your edit history generally does not reflect that. So your idea of a better source is one of the issues with your editing. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:57, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

User has picked up his edit warring behavior again. Is an administrator going to get involved in this continued behavior? He averted a block last time by taking a couple hour "wiki break," but returned just to continue his behavior. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 17:00, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, as I predicted. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:34, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Go on then, I'll indulge you. I recently looked at Dane Bowers who was involved in an incident over the use of the word "pikey" (not his words, btw). And after a quick search I found this: Kalwant Bhopal; Martin Myers (2008). Insiders, Outsiders and Others: Gypsies and Identity. Univ of Hertfordshire Press. p. 207. ISBN 978-1-902806-71-6. A decent, academic publication that not only looks at the matter, but puts it in some kind of context!

Your mischaracterization of my work (and canvassing and regular diversions into irrelevant ancient history) is becoming quite tiring. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 17:10, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

That is a rare instance of an academic book covering such a matter about a celebrity. Go ahead and review again the book you attempted to provide as justification for your arguments at the Jennifer Lawrence talk page. I stand by my statement that "Most of the book sources on celebrities are unauthorized biographies, tell-all books, or some other type of book source that is of relatively poor quality." And, really, I should know since I actually look to build articles, rather than tear them down, and rely on academic sources for other types of articles (meaning that looking for such sources is not lost on me), and since I keep the WP:Preserve policy (yes, a policy, not simply a guideline) in mind. And either way, there is no guideline or policy that academic book sources are preferred for celebrity articles. You are going around chopping articles partly because of your idea of what subpar sources are and because you want these articles to be built to your "high-quality" standards. That is disruptive. As for your WP:Canvassing claims, pinging involved (or previously involved) editors is not a WP:Canvassing violation. And ancient history? Bringing up your past behavior and rationales from years ago (meaning how and where all of this started), or simply a few or several days ago, is relevant. Anyone interested in building a case against someone's behavior at WP:ANI knows that past behavior is context, if relevant. And, as is clear by your edit history, and others' testimonies above and elsewhere, I have not mischaracterized your behavior at all. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:34, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Just another example of Hillbillyholiday not taking any of the concerns expressed by me and others seriously. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:09, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I've reviewed the edits at Michael Michael and Cristiano Ronaldo and I have no major concerns about HBH's editing, except that I wish they would consistently explain in article talk what they are doing and why. On the other hand, if you are still coming to terms with the ramifications of WP:BLP and WP:BLPSOURCES and you express this by reverting poorly-sourced material into an article about living person, you risk getting an extended period for self-study. Don't do it folks. --John (talk) 19:31, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

@John: Some of us are more concerned about the blatant edit wars he is getting himself into. These are not BLP worthy reverts; these are content reverts as the majority of it is sourced. One can't just take a sledgehammer to an article, cite WP:BLPSOURCES and then move on without explaining what he's doing when there is a chorus of editors questioning him (and then reverting editors upwards of 5 times on an article). Other policies on the wiki exist for a reason and are still applicable. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 20:16, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

See WP:NOT3RR. --John (talk) 20:38, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption. You mean that part where it suggests discussing instead of edit warring? — nihlus kryik  (talk) 20:42, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

No, I was thinking more of the sentence before that. BLP trumps everything, including user conduct policies like 3RR. --John (talk) 20:48, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

That's a fairly precarious position given that this user has invoked BLP when it may not have been appropriate. I think the better area for you to link to is WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE; however, I am concerned with the lack of civility and increased disruptive editing this will cause down the road, as evidenced by this rather large ANI thread. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 20:54, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I guess we should be expecting you to block Tenebrae over this then. But, yes, let's review those two articles. In the case of the first one, we can see that he removed poor and decent sources. Looking at the "Murder of Charlie Wilson" section, it's clear that some of that material could have been retained. Mainstream Publishing seems to be a decent publishing company. And History.com is a WP:Reliable source. Some of the content at the other article could have been retained as well. And why remove this content? What, because it's sourced to goal.com? I don't know much about goal.com, but I do see that it is used in a lot of sports or athlete articles. And as for the non-English source, English sources are preferred on Wikipedia, but they are not mandatory. Hillbillyholiday commented on "a hodgepodge of primary sources," as if primary sources are automatically disallowed or are poor sources in BLPs. You condoned Hillbillyholiday's editing in that latter case, but not all of his removals were justified. Clearly, this editor keeps removing material because he does not like it. Making the good removal here and there does not justify the questionable and/or bad removals. Hillbillyholiday showed his "I don't like it" rationale again when he nominated the Norma Stitz article for deletion and gave an "I don't like this" rationale; Malik Shabazz validly speedily closed the matter, and, as seen at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2017 August 23, Hobit and KGirlTrucker81 endorsed the close. Now Hillbillyholiday will try to delete the article again; hopefully, he gives a valid rationale this time. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:07, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm the closer of this AFD subjected to this ANI discussion, where he reverted my close and then re-revert closures again and taken to DRV. I'll vote keep once he renominates this article again. KGirl ^{(Wanna chat?)} 20:33, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I have no problem with any editor arguing at article talk that some of the removed material satisfied both WP:BLPSOURCES and WP:WEIGHT. I have no problem with any editor politely asking HBH at his user talk to be a bit more conservative in his removals. But neither of those is a fit matter for WP:AN/I. As far as editor behaviour goes, I agree that HBH has not been perfect (see Masem upthread), but while I am certainly not looking to block anybody, someone knowingly reverting in noncompliant material on a BLP because some of it was ok is a red flag for me and I will block for that after a warning, to protect our encyclopedia and the subjects of our articles, and to enforce WP:BLP. --John (talk) 20:38, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, clearly I and a number of others disagree with you that Hillbillyholiday's disruptive behavior is not a matter for WP:ANI. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:48, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Here's the thing: Hillbillyholiday was not simply removing possibly noncompliant content. He was unilaterally erasing entire sections which, as User:TonyBallioni and other careful, responsible editors have shown, actually contained well-cited and pertinent biographical material. All it took was a little collegial discussion and some judicious cuts. Anyone going through Wikipedia with a sledgehammer is incredibly, needlessly disruptive and appears to not want to play well with others. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll give another example: At Michael Michael, where he has been edit-warring blatantly, Hillbillyholiday removed passages with completely RS book and History Channel citations. We cannot have an editor going around with a chainsaw and no judiciousness whatsoever. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:41, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Despite clear warning, Tenebrae has just made this edit

X is an English career criminal of Greek Cypriot descent,<ref>Rat shopped wife mother, brother and lover http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/144139/Rat-shopped-wife-mother-brother-and-lover.html?print=yes</ref>

Another part of that edit was to re-add a section heading Murder of Charlie Wilson, an area in which the subject is only tangentially involved. (As far as I can gather. The sources given are notoriously unreliable.) It was not some drive-by "sledgehammering" on my part, it took some delicate rewording to bring a semblance of neutrality and accuracy to the article. Tenebrae needs to be, at the very least, temporarily banned from going anywhere near BLPs. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 21:38, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I've been here 12 years and have created well over 100 biographical articles and have stood up for BLP, especially with purported birthdates, countless times. How dare you, after the few years you've been here, presume to attack a longtime, highly responsible editor out of your own petty pique. You are exactly demonstrating the issue multiple other editors have with you, which is that you seem to lack basic civility or any capacity to behave in a collaborative manner. You're also clearly guilty of WP:OWN at Michael Michael and possibly elsewhere. When multiple editors are in agreement that your editing is careless, bludgeoning and own-ish, maybe it's not everyone else that's the problem. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:46, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

You have over 130,000 edits??!! I am truly appalled. You know you are currently edit-warring to restore a MASSIVELY BLP-VIOLATING version, right? You should do if you've been here that long. Why? 'Petty pique', I suspect. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 21:54, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

And I'll repeat, since you seem guilty of I-can't-hear-you: At Michael Michael, you are edit-warring to remov passages with completely RS book and History Channel citations. You don't have a blanket right to edit-war; I don't know why you think you do. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:41, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

If you are as responsible an editor as you claim, then the reason for your current edit-warring can only be sheer spite. You've just re-added a section Murder of Charlie Wilson which neither mentions the subject of the BLP, nor the murder of Charlie Wilson. Twice. In 1990, the former treasurer of the Great Train Robbery Charles Frederick "Charlie" Wilson had moved to Marbella, Spain, where he was suspected to be involved in drug smuggling.[4][5] Engaged to launder some of the proceeds from the Brink's-Mat robbery, he lost the investors £3million.[6] Astonishing. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 22:20, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, and I was going to add an "expand section" tag, but you were edit-warring so swiftly and vociferously I didn't have a chance to lest I over-revert. That's the collaborative way of doing things, and you clearly have no interest in behaving collaboratively with any of the multiple editors here and on the edit-warring noticeboard. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:24, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

It is as blatant a BLP violation as is possible to get. You twice put in a section heading: "Murder of Charlie Wilson". With no details of the murder! The subject of the BLP was not involved in the actual murdering as far as we know, and no source says he was. In response you claim because there is a book and the History Channel (lol!) you are justified in edit-warring. It's simply incredible. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 22:36, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

• Is there a pattern developing here? Is most of the content being deleted is embarrassing content related to women? Is there wiki-wide consensus that all the sources being deleted are unreliable? QuackGuru (talk) 20:44, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

The case is beyond women, including supposedly embarrassing content related to women, and unreliable sources. As noted above, valid content is being removed as well and edit warring is happening across a number of these articles partly because of that. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:53, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

If this is not for AN/I then it is for WP:ARBCOM. If any admin is supporting edit warring then that too could end up at WP:ARBCOM. This whole thing seems weird. I mean really weird. If I was edit warring like that without gaining consensus then I would of been blocked or banned. Even if an editor believes they are right or even if they are right that does not excuse edit warring and if any admin supports edit warring then that might be seen as unhelpful. QuackGuru (talk) 21:48, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

The mass content deletions have continued. Not all the sources are unreliable. I am not going to try to restore any content. I know editors are being warned if they edit pages they have edited. For medical content we have MEDRS. We don't have specific policy covering each and every source for BLPs. Editors have different opinions what is or what isn't reliable. QuackGuru (talk) 14:54, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Proposed site ban

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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After seeing this reply to engage in a talk page conversation.....I don't see how this editor will be able to engage with the community on a positive level. What are we to do it they are unwilling to talk about there actions. --Moxy (talk) 00:15, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Wow. Two respectable admins have approved my edits to that particular article. I'm currently involved in conversations regarding this blatantly BLP-violating idiocy at three separate venues (here, AN/3RR, and RfPP), but because I won't talk about it at the article's talkpage you propose a siteban? --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 00:46, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support indef block two week block: He's failed to communicate in a civil environment, and showing editorial bias and disruption between BLPs. KGirl ^{(Wanna chat?)} 00:35, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

EDIT: it would been overkill to implement an indef block, so instead let's see if further improvements happen during the temporary block. KGirl ^{(Wanna chat?)} 01:54, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

KGirl, you think that the Daily Mail, well-known for its Islamaphobia, is a suitable source for a possibly Muslim-related terrorist attack. (User_talk:KGirlTrucker81#Citing_the_Daily_Mail_as_a_source) Perhaps others should take your views on "editorial bias" with a pinch of salt. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 00:46, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

But I think it's inappropriate to use Daily Mail as a source on BLPs, should be only used on crime and news articles only. KGirl ^{(Wanna chat?)} 00:57, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I really don't know whether to laugh or cry. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 01:31, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@KGirlTrucker81:Please look at this [26]. Funnily enough, @Hillbillyholiday:, this was your RFC. Blackmane (talk) 03:44, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support short block - Strong oppose indefinite ban - They've had one 24 hr block for edit warring in 2013. Granted, this is a serious case over numerous articles, but an indefinite block is jumping the gun. Block them for a week or two and see if the behaviour changes. Cjhard (talk) 00:44, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• I've not looked closely enough to figure out if there should be a block or not, but we are getting back to the "great BLP wars" where someone makes major changes to an article, often deleting whole sections, and then is rude and not collaborative when people point out that they're removed things that are, in part, reasonable and good. This is one place in Wikipedia where you will get non-trivial admin support for behavior that is otherwise problematic. I'd like a very clear message sent to the user that if the continue to behave in this way they will be blocked--possibly indefinitely. A short block might be the best way to get that across. The user does appear to likely be a net positive, but does so in a way that causes nearly as many problems as it solves. If they can manage to be collaborative they will end up being more successful even if it is less satisfying than hurling insults and being overly terse in their communication. Hobit (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Strong oppose Completely unwarranted. Blackmane (talk) 01:28, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Strong oppose Overkill. -- ψλ ● ✉ 01:37, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - Yikes. Responding to the proposal in the section heading and not the various other ideas people have thrown out, it's just way too far. There are multiple steps that can come before a siteban. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 01:39, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - I don't think a site ban is warranted, although the edit warring is egregious. I would support a temporary block in an effort to get the user to DISENGAGE. AlexEng^(TALK) 01:43, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose and may I request that Hillbillyholiday take the time to explain the specifics of why they have removed text on any talk page and engage with editors there or if it comes to a stalemate, bring it to BLPN where people tend to be very strict on BLP policy, and will listen to both sides. A lot of their content removals were good under BLP policy, but what people are getting angry over is that there isn't any collaborative spirit shown, which is an issue. A site ban is completely unwarranted at this time. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:45, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

TonyBallioni, he's been removing a lot of valid content as well; that is the other issue, as has been made clear by others above and elsewhere on the site. Editors should pay attention to Hobit's comment a little above; he is right on the money. And QuackGuru is right that he (QuackGuru) would have been blocked by now if this was him. I've seen "untouchable" disruptive editors before. They are "untouchable" because, despite their mass disruption, they keep getting passes by administrators to continue being disruptive and are often unblocked by them. I, however, could always somewhat understand why those editors were untouchable; their good contributions helped balance out the bad, or were simply a significant net positive. By contrast, I, for the life of me, do not see why Hillbillyholiday should be untouchable. And one of the problems is that he thinks he's untouchable because of the unwavering support of one administrator in particular. If nothing is done on this matter this time, the disruption will continue, and we will be right back here weighing in on a case about him in the future. This editor is not collaborative in any way that I have seen. We have better editors cleaning up BLP issues and who are far more careful with the articles while doing so. So I really can't blame Moxy for jumping right to a site ban. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:34, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose Blocks are preventative not punitive and this proposal is the latter. MarnetteD|Talk 01:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Strong oppose Misguided proposal. As per TonyBallioni, a lot of the contentious content removals have been in line with BLP policy. Anyone who's been doorstepped and forced into hiding by Paul Dacre's henchmen, for his loyalty to this encyclopedia, deserves a little better. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• oppose per Martinevans123. I do nor see where cutting excessive quotes and material that probably is a BLP violation is a problem. Yeah, he could probably be a bit more talkative on talk pages, but when something is challenged on BLP grounds, even in an FA, the proper course of action is to discuss, not revert the material back into the article. Frankly, jumping to a site ban proposal looks like trying to win a content dispute by eliminating the opposition. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:57, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Ealdgyth, if he wasn't cutting a lot of decent content as well, mainly because he does not like the content, and falsely citing WP:BLP for some of those cuts, and then edit warring to maintain his version of the article, there wouldn't be an issue. It's clear that a number of editors know that this is not simply about the Daily Mail and protecting BLPs. And if something is wrongly challenged on BLP grounds, as has sometimes been the case with Hillbillyholiday, there is no BLP exemption. Editors should not have to put up with Hillbillyholiday's invalid deletions by waiting for whatever case he makes on the talk page, especially on FAs, and especially since he has proven time and again that his understanding of BLP violations is somewhat skewed and that he is often unwilling to discuss on the talk page anyway (unless his version is currently retained, that is, or unless he plans to revert again anyway). He does not listen. At all. Moxy, who is one of our best editors, should not have jumped right to a site ban proposal, but she has largely been uninvolved in this case and did dot make the proposal to eliminate the opposition; she made the proposal because she sees disruption on a wide scale. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:34, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Why should editors "have to put up with edit warring re-additions" of BLP breach material"? Why not restore only the parts which do not breach BLP? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:01, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Essenially what Martinevans says...there is nothing magical about an FA that prevents someone finding BLP violations ... frankly I agree with most of his deletions. Just because something can be sourced, doesn't mean it should be in an article. If someone removes something, try discussing and seeing the other side, rather than edit warring. And I'd someone alleges BLP, even if it is later decided it's not, chances are good that there are issues with the content. Long quotes about relationships and excessive detail on personal life when the subject's notability is not from their relationships is most often not encyclopedic. Too many of our celebrity articles (even the FAs and GAs) read like celebrity gossip sheets with long unneeded quotes and too much detail. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Let's flip that: Why can't Hillbillyholiday restore the parts which do not breach BLP? Or better yet, not remove them in the first place? The simple answer is that he does not care for it and will even edit war to keep it out as well. This is not simply a matter of overquoting either. Removing content that should be in the article per WP:Due is an issue. An editor can dislike our Public image sections in celebrity articles as much as the editor wants to, but this material is not trivial material. Like I stated before, the public image is often significant to a celebrity and we have various FA-quality articles showing that Public image sections can be encyclopedic. Similar goes for sections about legal issues. An editor should not be removing this material because he or she does not like it. And, unless they actually contain one or more BLP violations, the removals are in direct violation of WP:Preserve (a policy). As noted by others, we have other policies for a reason. There is nothing magical about FAs, but there is something special about them, which is why Wikipedia:Ownership of content#Featured articles states, "While Featured articles (identified by a bronze star in the upper-right corner ) are open for editing like any other, they have gone through a community review process as Featured article candidates, where they are checked for high-quality sources, a thorough survey of the relevant literature, and compliance with the Featured Article criteria. Editors are asked to take particular care when editing a Featured article; it is considerate to discuss significant changes of text or images on the talk page first. Explaining civilly why sources and policies support a particular version of a featured article does not necessarily constitute ownership." Hillbillyholiday, on the other hand, is violating WP:OWN across numerous articles. And he has shown that when he alleges BLP for his massive removals (not so much the smaller ones), chances are that there is no BLP violation and some of the content he is removing should not be removed. This is not a matter of retaining content because we can; this is a matter of Hillbillyholiday removing content that should be included and edit warring to keep it removed. If someone reverts something, Hillbillyholiday should try discussing it and seeing the other side, rather than edit warring. He does not do that. He just asserts that he is right, mocks/belittles editors and then moves on his merrily way. Oh, and then he edit wars again. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:03, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose per Martinevans123. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:11, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support block for failure to communicate when edits are challenged and for edit warring. Sundayclose (talk) 14:35, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support temp block - 1. What is "two respectable admins"? Is there a Respectable Admins List that I'm unaware of? 2. Getting some BLP right does not give one carte blanche to trample accepted standards of editor behavior. This editor clearly believes that it does, and only an involuntary wikibreak seems likely to stand any chance of correcting that misconception. This is preventative. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:54, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed one-week block

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Pinging all participants in the site ban proposal. If anyone wants to scan the parent section for other participants, they have my blessing to knock themselves out. @Hillbillyholiday, Moxy, KGirlTrucker81, Blackmane, Cjhard, Hobit, Winkelvi, Rhododendrites, AlexEng, TonyBallioni, Flyer22 Reborn, MarnetteD, Martinevans123, Ealdgyth, Gerda Arendt, and Sundayclose: ―Mandruss ☎ 15:23, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support - 1. What is "two respectable admins"? Is there a Respectable Admins List that I'm unaware of? 2. Getting some BLP right does not give one carte blanche to trample accepted standards of editor behavior. This editor clearly believes that it does, and only an involuntary wikibreak seems likely to stand any chance of correcting that misconception. This is preventative. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:25, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Question What would the proposed block achieve? I am struggling to see where the editor has done anything coming close to requiring a block. Which part of WP:BLOCK are we talking about? --John (talk) 15:26, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

WP:BLOCKDETERRENT. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 15:44, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

We would not be discussing a block if this editor had made any kind of acknowledgement that his/her behavior needs modification, agreed to partake in talk page discussion, and will brush up on sourcing basics etc. Instead, editor continued edit warring despite warning, with insistence that he/she is right, so it doesn't matter, and using the excuse that 3RR doesn't apply because everything is a BLP violation in his/her view. (See the edit-warring report here where Hillbillyholiday pops up to continue to argue.) There is especially troubling behavior to me in that this editor continually cites his/her removal of text by claiming things like "No RS" or "all primary sources/no secondary sources" even though that's demonstrably false, which means one of a few things: this editor does not understand the basic tenets of WP sourcing, which would suggest a competency issue; this editor is being deliberately dishonest and just hoping nobody will challenge assertions; or even possibly a third possibility, this editor has such a toxic case of WP:OWN and WP:IDONTLIKEIT that nothing counts as a reliable secondary source unless Hillbillyholiday personally likes what it says. —Мандичка^YO 😜 16:27, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@John: it's pretty clear to me that the intention is to prevent disruptive behavior in the form of edit warring per WP:Blocking policy#Disruption. Was that not clear to you from the discussion above, and the AN3 thread? AlexEng^(TALK) 21:00, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support two weeks for both HBH and Tenebrae (who was also edit warring at the same time and knows better per his block log and the comments left by the last two blocking admins "The [three-revert] rule is not an entitlement to revert a page a specific number of times."; "Edit warring: Across multiple BLP's - clearly refuses to understand either EW or BLP"). A longer block will hopefully get the message across and give them both time to think about why they were blocked and that such actions leading to the block will not be tolerated. In addition, I suggest that there be the assurance that there will be escalating block lengths for future similar behavior or any attempts for either to game the system. If other editors are not in agreement with two weeks, support one week as proposed, but only for both editors. If not both, it should be neither. This was an equal effort by both and I believe Tenebrae actually contributed to HBH's behavior by edit warring himself and just placing warning templates and "communicating" via edit summary rather than actually trying to talk. This is a common theme for Tenebrae that has proven over time to do nothing but escalate the edit warring scenarios he frequently finds himself in. -- ψλ ● ✉ 18:03, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Comment: Alex Shih has blocked the editor for 24 hours for edit warring. But knowing how Hillbillyholiday behaves, I doubt that 24 hours will be enough to drive home the point that his behavior is disruptive. I'm not sure anything will. And he already voluntarily stopped for a short time and resumed his disruption afterward. There is also a proposal below. Pinging editors I initially pinged above: SNUGGUMS, FrB.TG, Krimuk2.0, Mattbuck, Sundayclose, RektGoldfish and FlightTime. And pinging Softlavender, Wikimandia and Tenebrae. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:37, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support at least one week block and then indef – I didn't comment above before it was closed, and while I wouldn't have agreed with a site ban, there needs to be something done. I would much prefer a temporary topic-ban related to BLP and celebs, but the edit-warring are violations of overall WP guidelines. I think one week is to lenient given the belligerence and arrogance here, and that this editor was blocked for the same thing in 2013. I had mistakenly thought he/she was a newcomer who just didn't understand the rules. I have looked more at this user's other edits. See my comments below about the proposed sanction as to why I am saying indef after this. —Мандичка^YO 😜 15:46, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support one-week block in addition to current block for failure to communicate when edits are challenged and for a pattern of edit warring. Sundayclose (talk) 15:47, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support one-week block the severe edit warring over mass deletions warrants much more than just a 24-hour block. Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support Mainly due to the fact that, even at the ANEW, HBH was still refusing to understand or accept that there could possibly even be an issue with their editing behaviour; this is entwined with the fact that they have been somewhat overplaying the WP:3RRBLP card, to the extent that it seems they may not actually understand its (deliberately) tight constraints. — fortunavelut luna 15:52, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - Any block, but anything less than 30 days, would just have Hillbillyholiday laughing as a joke. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:56, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support at least a one-week block in addition to the current block and to the revert-limits proposed below. I think anything less will be simply a slap on the wrist and make a mockery of an extensive discussion involving collective hours and hours of editors' time. While I understand Hillbillyholiday's good intentions, it pales beside his unrepentant combativeness, incivility and ownership tendencies, which are destructive for Wikipedia as a whole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tenebrae (talk • contribs) 16:44, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support with sanctions - The community will decide in the place of administrator inaction. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 16:59, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I think any consideration of the length of the ban needs to factor in what they told the admin who applied the 24-hour block: "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! What a shit-shamble of mongsters! ...You're an absolute embarrassment." This is just simply remarkable, and it shows in clear-cut terms, by their own words, the kind of person we're dealing with. They have no respect for Wikipedia, for fellow editors, for admins .. for anyone generous enough of their time to volunteer for this task. If that's the essential personality, that's not going to change any more than expecting someone to become "more presidential" if that's not their personality. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:05, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Tenebrae, I'd see HBH's intemperate language as a sign of his frustration, not of some deep-seated psychopathic personality trait. You know what happened to HBH when he proposed the ban on Daily Mail, a while back, all for the good of this project, don't you? I too thought that 24-hour block might calm things down. But then I actually read the diffs, and then I too was embarrassed. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:05, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure the reason matters. Whether a schoolyard bully is frustrated or has parents who beat him, the kid he bullies still winds up on the ground with a bloody nose, a black eye and ripped clothing. The bully needs to be kept away from others — whether in treatment or in juvenile hall doesn't much matter, as long as he can't continue to bully others. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:37, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support two week block per my previous comment above. KGirl ^{(Wanna chat?)} 17:57, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose unless there's a pattern far longer than one angry and recent comment in response to a block, this is excessive. Power~enwiki (talk) 18:08, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Power~enwiki, yep, there's a pattern; he's being doing this for years. And he clearly is not going to stop unless something is done. This is not about his egregious response to his 24-hour block. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:20, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

This proposal was created 23 minutes before HBH's comment in response to the block. The proposal for site ban was created 15 hours before the comment; the ANI complaint was opened 5.5 days before the comment. I fail to see how you could perceive this as being about the comment. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:32, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I suppose I did imply that. I felt that there was no reason to even consider supporting this without noting his angry comments. The normal blocks for edit-warring are sufficient and this definitely won't encourage him to use talk pages more. Power~enwiki (talk) 18:49, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose This is purely punitive. GoldenRing (talk) 18:14, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

GoldenRing, in what way, given this editor's level of disruption? Really, how do you propose this disruption stop when this editor continues to edit war across multiple articles, including over material that is not a BLP violation, and when he does not listen to others, and when he repeatedly belittles others, and when he often is not willing to discuss his changes? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:28, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

And how does a one-week block solve any of that? GoldenRing (talk) 18:31, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

For one, it lets him know that his disruptive behavior will not be tolerated by the community. Two, it is one step for further sanctioning. And this thread has repeatedly shown that there is a need for sanctioning in this case. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:05, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@GoldenRing: WP:BLOCKDETERRENT. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 19:35, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support. There is no net positive in retaining an editor who edit wars across multiple articles, does not discuss his changes unless essentially forced to do so after being reverted by multiple editors, belittles editors (admins and regulars alike), disregards all opinions but his own and those who disagree with him, and misinterprets the BLP policy this much. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:05, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support as proposed. The violation of 3RR was egregious in this case and the attitude in response to these discussions shows nothing but contempt for policy. A week-long block will give the editor time to cool down and return to productive editing. AlexEng^(TALK) 20:56, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Strong oppose In all the discussions above, Hillbillyholiday has referred to specific issues in content, while his opponents have replied with vague references around "is 'x' a reliable source" (to which the answer is "it depends"). I am disappointed to see editors restore BLP violations to The Sun and would remind everyone that the burden of proof over whether something belongs in an article is with the editor who adds or restores it. Not everything that is reliably sourced needs to be in an article. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:27, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Ritchie333, you know that this is not simply about protecting BLP. What BLP violations are at the Jennifer Lawrence article? How is the legal material that was validly restored at the Amanda Bynes article after the WP:BLP noticeboard discussion a BLP violation? This is editor is removing valid content as well and edit warring over it, causing all types of disruption across numerous articles. And he will keep doing it because he thinks that his behavior is perfectly acceptable. And why wouldn't he when he has a few admins backing this disruption? It's not about including everything that can be sourced either. Editors have given valid reasons for why some of the content that Hillbillyholiday is removing should be retained. He does not care. I am disappointed that a number of editors are allowing the removal of valid content that should be retained per WP:Preserve. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:24, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

In the case of Amanda Bynes, there was too much emphasis on her mental health issues; we are an encyclopedia, not a tabloid newspaper. I had never heard of Tila Tequila, but my conclusion from reading the article is that this is a person who is seriously mentally ill and who I'm prepared to believe is not a genuine fascist. The article absolutely needs a sensitive hand and not reporting every time she opens her gob and says something stupid. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:36, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I am not talking about retaining all of the Amanda Bynes material. I asked, "How is the legal material that was validly restored at the Amanda Bynes article after the WP:BLP noticeboard discussion a BLP violation?" The section needing a trim -- any section needing a trim -- does not justify an editor taking a chainsaw to the whole section and removing all of it, especially simply because he does not feel like "sorting it out." An example of cooperation is me asking editors on the talk page if any of the Tia Tequila material should be restored and us working it out. Hillbillyholiday has not shown that he can do this in the case of BLPs. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:56, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I would recommend my approach on Talk:Brad Pitt, where I summarised a compromise to a dispute between you and John, that took time and effort but was a good attempt to resolve things. From my experience, John and Hillbillyholiday are fine as long as you don't go into a dispute with guns blazing, and chopping out a section can be a valid application of WP:BRD - it's not personal. Although here we are, four years later, arguing over exactly the same sort of thing so I'm not going to hold my breath. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:17, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

We both know that I won't be agreeing with you on John. My history with him, and his BLP views repeatedly being out of step with the community's views on BLP, as shown by more than one RfC, are reasons enough. And I cannot agree with you on Hillbillyholiday; Hillbillyholiday makes it personal every damn time. Editors (including myself) have tried to reason with Hillbillyholiday with no guns in hand, to no avail. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Strong oppose as per User:Ritchie333. Did I just hear someone say "cool down"? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:47, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Cool down? He did that before. And went right back to his disruption. And he will do it again. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:24, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Is "cool down" a valid reason for issuing a block? Your insistence on answering every !vote here makes it look a bit like you have launched a crusade against HBH based on a personal grudge, rather than seeking admin action based on policy. I suggest you just let folks make their !vote and then let the closing admin decide what action, if any, is appropriate. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:30, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I and others have been over why issuing the block is necessary. It very much lets this editor know that his disruption will not be tolerated. And it is the first step in the sanctioning process. Rewarding an editor for bad behavior is not. Insistence on answering every !vote here? I have not. And if even I had, if there is a valid reason to respond to a vote claiming "BLP exemption," I see no issue challenging the matter, especially when coming from an admin like Ritchie333, who has time and again shared John's odd BLP views. And you acting like this is based on a personal grudge shows a lack of clue. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:56, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm suggesting that your approach here is doing your case no favours. But could you please tell me, is "cool down" a valid reason for issuing a block? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:02, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

My approach here has alerted a lot of editors to mass disruption, and it has resulted in a number of editors agreeing with me and a minority opposing. Given that, and that this ANI report will be used against Hillbillyholiday in the future, I see that my approach has done just fine. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:08, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

"this ANI report will be used against Hillbillyholiday in the future" That sounds quite vindictive, I must say. I had assumed that you saw discussion and/or sanctions here as a way of encouraging him to change his editing style. I'm going to ask you (and User:AlexEng) just one last time: is "cool down" a valid reason for issuing a block? HBH is now unblocked and I don't see any frantic return to mass deletions. I feel like I'm wasting my time. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:45, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, you view any editor trying to get this ridiculous behavior to stop by following the appropriate protocols to be vindictive. This editor is unlikely to stop unless he knows that his behavior is unacceptable. A one week-block does drive home that point. Or attempts to. And it also stops his disruptive behavior for a week and gives editors a chance to breathe and actually calm down. If the disruption continues after that, editors continue to pursue stopping the disruption, including by linking to this case. That is not vindictive. You are asking us to trust that this editor is willing to change when he has repeatedly shown that he is not willing to change, and already took a brief break only to continue the disruption. As for wasting time, we are wasting time replying to each other about this editor since I do not see our opinions on him changing. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:59, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Martin, you know as well as anybody that a "no action" here will be interpreted as a community validation of the behavior, ensuring that it will be continued by HBH and anybody else of similar bent who is aware of the result. If you know of something besides a block or ban that will avoid that, I'm certainly all ears. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:16, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Mandruss, perhaps you could give us your understanding of the phrase "this ANI report will be used against Hillbillyholiday in the future"? If you coud do so without putting words in my mouth, as Flyer22 Reborn just did, I'd be very grateful. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:23, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I hesitate to speak for Flyer22, but I read that as "this ANI complaint will become part of the record, and it does not reflect well on HBH even if the result is no action". I don't disagree with that. I also don't see it as vindictive so much as an accurate reflection of the way things work around here. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:30, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I see, thanks. I had read it as a part of the mantra "this editor is no good", "this editor will never change", "it's only a mater of time before this editor has an indef block", etc. If not vindictive, I find it wholly presumptive. And I don't really see a one week block as being necessarily the best prospective sanction to impose in any case. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:41, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Martinevans123, since you addressed me specifically, I'll answer you. The term "cool down" is my paraphrasing of WP:BLOCKDETERRENT. I'm completely confused by your ostensible misunderstanding of this motivation for a block. To my knowledge, it is in fact the only acceptable motivation for a block. We block users to prevent problems from happening. It's really easy to sit here, 2 days in the future, and say "look, the problem isn't happening anymore, so there's no reason for this block." At the time this was proposed, there was a good reason for the block. The reasoning hinges on the fact that this behavior is repetitive, inappropriate, and disruptive. The user hasn't made a single edit (positive or otherwise) since the block expired, so I'm not sure on what basis you're assuming that they won't go right back to mass deletions. You're not the only one who feels like he's wasting his time. AlexEng^(TALK) 23:33, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Alex. I was also confused since, as I'm sure you know, the section headed "Cool-down block" at WP:BLOCK says specifically: "Blocks intended solely to "cool down" an angry user should not be used, as they often have the opposite effect." Yes, as you say, HBH hasn't made a single edit (positive or otherwise) since the block expired. Exactly the same effect as if he had been blocked? Is it possible he's having second thoughts about his actions? I'm assuming he's read all this discussion. But I admit, I could be wrong about that. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:41, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

How about a nice WP:COOLDOWNBOCK? EEng 10:21, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

No, Martin, it's not the same as if he had been blocked. I remain bewildered that so few experienced editors understand that sanctions are the only somewhat effective way for this community to say that a certain type of behavior is not acceptable, that yes, Wikipedia behavior policy is more than window dressing.
As for why HBH has gone quiet, I think that's exactly what any animal with opposable thumbs would do while their behavior is under intense scrutiny at ANI. Absent a clear and convincing statement from HBH, I have no reason to believe their mind-set has changed at all. Call me cynical. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:25, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm sure it's only skin deep. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:38, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. User:Ritchie333 is entirely correct. It is also not the responsibility of the editor who removes dubious content from a BLP to scour the internet for better sources for the bits of salvageable content in the manure piles. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 12:38, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, an IP came out of nowhere to allege that you are Hillbillyholiday. Maybe someone alerted you to that thread on my talk page? Or this one? But, as seen on my talk page, I defended you, stating, in part, "The difference is that Hullaballoo Wolfowitz removes a lot of unsourced, WP:SYNTH, WP:Copyvio and WP:Non-free content criteria stuff (commonly stating 'fails NFCC#8'). This is a broader range than Hillbillyholiday. Yes, Hullaballoo Wolfowitz removes 'briefly dated' stuff. Sometimes he might remove 'currently dating' stuff, but he usually leaves in clearly significant personal life material, such as a married couple or a life partner, or other long-term couple, and the fact that they have children. He only cuts the Personal life section when it is a BLP violation (and that includes poorly sourced material) and/or when it only includes 'dated in the past' material. [...] Hillbillyholiday edits from an 'I don't like it' viewpoint significantly more often than Hullaballoo Wolfowitz does. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz is also mwe careful with his cutting than Hillbillyholiday is, and has a better understanding of BLP than Hillbillyholiday does. He's not out there complaining about primary sources, or supposed primary sources, and asking or demanding academic sources for celebrity articles, when, like I stated at WP:ANI, 'most of the book sources on celebrities are unauthorized biographies, tell-all books, or some other type of book source that is of relatively poor quality. For celebrities, the best sources are going to be media sources.' Hullaballoo Wolfowitz is more willing to listen and engage when challenged. And given that Hullaballoo Wolfowitz is a significantly more established editor, with support from some editors, one would need to wonder why he would create the Hillbillyholiday account." So it is not like I am opposing the removal of poorly sourced material. I am opposing the mass disruption and see no end in sight unless we stop it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:24, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per Ritchie, also: what do you think will a week of being blocked (or any other duration) teach someone who has disappeared for months? - I thanked Alex Shih for the unblock. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:15, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support See my other support below. This is not a BLP issue. Would people please read the diffs at the top? Jim1138 (talk) 22:56, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support The user needs to take issues to the talk page. Yes referenced content can take some time to adjust. Edit warring is not the solution. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:18, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - for the sake of brevity, I'll limit my reason to a block in this instance being unwarranted, punitive, and seemingly vengeful. I agree that TP discussion is a better alternative, at least in most instances, but I take a rather stern approach when it comes to correcting noncompliance with BLPs. I have little patience for tabloidism and find it a refreshing change to see editors who are willing to correct it. ^{Atsme📞📧} 14:42, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Comment. Since when is edit warring across multiple articles okay? QuackGuru (talk) 20:52, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support (second choice). I don't imagine that a weeklong block would magically fix everything, so I prefer the proposal below this one. However, I do believe something other than admonishment is needed to resolve this, and this qualifies. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 04:59, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed sanction

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

While I agree that the proposal to indef Hillbillyholiday was brought on way too quickly and was never going to happen, something needs to be done longterm. Since it appears HBH has a problem with reverting while discussions are ongoing, I propose the following restriction:

Hillbillyholiday is restricted to one revert per article per every 72 hour period in the BLP topic area, broadly construed, except in cases of obvious vandalism unrelated to sources. Hillbillyholiday is encouraged to take disputes to the article talk page or the BLP noticeboard.

I'm completely open to discussion on length and content of the sanction. I believe, that even with the recent 24-hour block, that this will continue given the user has been blocked for edit warring before, so something besides a block is needed to control his editing once he returns.

• Support as drafter. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 15:28, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - As I feel this is the only realistic, effective action. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• @FlightTime: Apparently not, since you are supporting two of them. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:01, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• @Mandruss: I was supporting anything that was going to get this editors attention, since you feel that both can not be supported, I've struck out my short block support. - FlightTime (open channel) 16:10, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

All things being equal, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive; this could commence the moment the above finishes. — fortunavelut luna 16:12, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@FlightTime: (edit conflict) These aren't mutually exclusive. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 16:14, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• @FlightTime: I have no objection to supporting both, but your comment above seemed inconsistent with that. In hindsight I may have been too picky about language. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:15, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Well, @Mandruss: seems to have a predisposed attitude against any I do of late anyway, so I'll just stay here and be done with it. - FlightTime (open channel) 16:29, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• No comments to you or about you outside of this subsection, ever in my Wikipedia career, unless memory fails. Clearly you are yet another victim of my shit list. Alrighty then. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:40, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support - as drafted, in addition to the above section's proposal for a ban of at least one week, for the reasons I give there. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:46, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - This is pointless. Hillbillyholiday has demonstrated that he/she does not know what "obvious" BLP violations are and does not care about anyone else's viewpoint. Please look at Hillbillyholiday's contributions since recent return from absence. Aggressive insistence on removing mass amounts of text and declaring it all BLP violations, all while refusing to engage in discussion, and general rude behavior/comment summaries. Also please take a look at this AfD Hillbillyholiday created, which summarizes the pattern of behavior: he/she doesn't like something and will not take no for an answer, all while refusing to follow Wikipedia guidelines even after being reminded (in this case, listing deletion criteria, mandatory for creating an AfD). Finally, look at the abusive comments Hillbillyholiday directed at the admin who blocked him/her for the edit warring violation. THIS rage for a mere 24-hour block. I think this is crossing into WP:NOTHERE territory. —Мандичка^YO 😜 16:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

While I understand your concerns, this will allow administrators and the community a greater ability to respond to his actions without having to go through another ANI/AN3 process. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 16:57, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

The reason I say it is pointless is because "one revert per article per every 72 hour period" will not stop this editor's disruptive pattern, merely slow it down. There are millions of Wikipedia articles Hillbillyholiday can fuck with, some of which may not be high-profile enough to be noticed right away for another editor to revert. Look at the AfD I added to my comment above. Hillbillyholiday refused to follow even the most basic requirements and then declares he/she "will not accept" the outcome. I do not see any evidence that this person is here to truly contribute to an encyclopedia. —Мандичка^YO 😜 17:19, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 18:57, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support I do see HBH's removes as reasonably appropriate under BLP, which is generally treated as "remove first, ask questions later". As I noted above, though, these aren't clear BLP viols that would allow for edit warring under WP:3RRBLP. HBH has every right to remove what I see as a lot of potentially slimy, gossipy-type things that are questionable that should be discussed if they should be included or condensed. (eg are they reasonable to keep in a bio article decades after these things happen?) But HBH does need to engage in that discussion, so that if one of their removals is reverted, they need to seek talk page/ BLP/N discussion rather than revert. That's not happening too much currently, and to that end, some type of throttle and that encourages discussion is needed. If it ends up that HBH is basically removing material as fast as this allows, and is not engaging on reverts, then further blocks make sense. --MASEM (t) 18:00, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose If the material should be removed on BLP grounds, then it is those re-adding the material that are disruptive, not those removing it. GoldenRing (talk) 18:27, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

That's the problem, it's not being removed on BLP grounds. The massive wall of text above shows that he is indiscriminately removing perfectly good material and telling others to sort it out. So, he is being disruptive. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 18:49, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Not when he is removing material that is does not fall under "BLP grounds," which he has indeed been doing. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:53, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose per Goldenring. It's time to talk about Australasian measures. --John (talk) 18:29, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

  WP:BOOMERANG doesn't apply in this case, no matter how much you want it to. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:53, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

  Why not? ANI can examine the conduct of anyone involved in the matter. In this case, it's clear John is referring to examining your conduct; I assume he means your over-eager participation here. Power~enwiki (talk) 19:34, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

  Why not? Perhaps read WP:BOOMERANG? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:04, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

  Sure, let's examine Flyer22's conduct. Examine mine, too. Meanwhile we can examine John's conduct, GoldenRing's conduct, and various other conduct, in exhaustive and exhausting detail, until this ANI complaint has grown far beyond human capacity to process it. You're going to have to define "over-eager" as something other than taking a lead in opposition to your views. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

  I agree this discussion overall is spiraling out of control. On the other hand, Flyer22 Reborn has made 48 comments here, and is approaching WP:BLUDGEON. Power~enwiki (talk) 19:54, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

  I'm not aware that the essay WP:BLUDGEON has ever been successful grounds for a boomerang sanction. Is that all you've got? ―Mandruss ☎ 19:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Power~enwiki, pot meet kettle. Besides the fact that I've been making some different points, replying to new editors who are mischaracterizing the situation or replying to editors who have replied to me is not WP:BLUDGEON. And considering that I started this thread, it makes sense for me to have so many replies in it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:04, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support: Below, John notes that he is disappointed in us for trying to stop mass disruption, including removal of valid content and the constant display of WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT behavior. Hillbillyholiday is not a collaborative editor, and he will never be one. His disruption has gone on long enough. I am disappointed in John and his support of such disruption, but this is nothing new. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:53, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Question Can you look at this edit, which you want another editor sanctioned for, and tell me what is wrong with it? --John (talk) 18:59, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

As noted before, getting some things right does not excuse all of the things he's getting wrong. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:08, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I see. What percentage of things do you think he is currently getting wrong? I picked that diff because that is what he is currently blocked for. --John (talk) 19:13, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

John, I and others have already been over the issues throughout this thread. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:17, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

But you certainly haven't suggested any percentage, or even a rough proportion. You've just characterised HBH as being a wholly disruptive edit warrior, hell-bent on serial wanton destruction, who will "never be a collaborative editor". You're telling us, essentially, that every single one of his deletions is wrong? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:31, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I and a number of others have been clear on our positions. For the last time: Valid edits here and there do not justify disruptive behavior, including removal of valid content on an "I don't like it" basis. There is a reason that Wikipedia:Edit warring#Exemptions states what it does about BLPs. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• • Comment "Hillbillyholiday is not a collaborative editor, and he will never be one" What utter nonsense. I have collaborated with him on many articles, as have many other editors, over many years. And in what crystal ball do you see his future, as an editor, mapped out so precisely? I think a comment like that is wholly unjustified, inflammatory and biased. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:10, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Given his documented behavior in this thread and elsewhere, I have to disagree. He's been here since 2013 (a few years), and it was 2013 when I first became aware of him, as indicated earlier on in this thread. Any collaborative behavior I might have seen in him in his early years (and that is a big might) is collaborative behavior I no longer see. If one wants to state that it's just a bad week for him, they can, but this bad week of his has a lot to do with not being collaborative. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:17, 24 August 2017 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:30, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Please explain to me how you can know, with such categorical certainty, that "he will never be one"? That's quite a ridiculous statement. And one that suggests that you think any kind of sanction will essentially be a complete waste of time? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:15, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps Flyer22 means HBH will never be a collaborative editor with Flyer22. Blackmane (talk) 23:23, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Not at all. But I do have one prediction: If Hillbillyholiday's disruptive editing is allowed to continue, WP:ArbCom is indeed likely the next step. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:29, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Abstain I'd like to hear if Hillbillyholiday has anything to say about his use (or non-use) of talk pages before !voting here. Power~enwiki (talk) 18:57, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose We do not sanction editors for upholding BLP Darkness Shines (talk) 20:38, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Darkness Shines, we can when they are not simply upholding BLP and are being disruptive all over the place. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:43, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• support and here is why.

I just read through this whole saga. My thoughts: I think we should use high quality sources, and we should follow NPOV and think carefully about what is DUE and UNDUE, especially for living people. That is what BLP is all about.

The whole argument above is not really about BLP, but rather about sourcing, and what is DUE and UNDUE based on the set of sources considered reliable.

With the piles and piles of celebrity gossip rags out there, there are always going to be plenty of sources that people can say are "reliable" for content about celebrities, and people can pile them up with respect to piece-of-gossip-X and say it is DUE to include X in a BLP article.

Now, my vision for what celebrity articles should look like, is way more like John's and Hillbillyholiday's than those opposing them.

But I find Hillbillyholiday's strategy of trying to aggressively force a view of source quality and UNDUEness based on that view of sources, to be unacceptable, and John's providing cover for that strategy to be bad judgement. In this regard, Flyer's bringing this thread and trying to drive a resolution to sanction Hillbillyholiday, 100% Wikipedian.

The Wikipedia way to go for Hillbillyholiday and John, would be to try to build consensus for a guideline about "reliable sources for living people" (more elaborate in terms of stratifying the "literature" than what we have now at WP:BLPRS). I have no idea what the community went though to get MEDRS built, but .... it got there, somehow. And to the extent that people are saying that BLP is so, so important, working hard to build a more meaningful sourcing guideline for content about living people makes sense, right?

The other way to do this, would be to work collaboratively on an article-by-article basis and persuade people to adopt the higher sourcing standard, and build consensus that way.

But until there is consensus for sources for content about living people, Hillbillyholiday's essentially battleground approach to raising source quality is going to be nothing but continued disruption. The sanction proposed here is reasonable, since Hillbillyholiday has expressed no understanding of how un-Wikipedian their behavior is. Jytdog (talk) 02:45, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. BLP policy is clear, and even a local consensus here to weaken its enforcement is patently invalid. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 12:48, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Clarification: No one is advocating weakening BLP. The editor is question edit-warring over a much smaller non-BLP passage cited to two books and the History Channel, in an OWN manner unrelated to RS sourcing. He additionally shows a pattern of combativeness and disruptiveness, and uses abusive language toward other editors, among other issues.--Tenebrae (talk) 12:58, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
• BLP is clear that it does not trump behavior policy aside from 3RR (WP:BLPREMOVE). Repeated requests for policy basis for HBH's overall behavior have been met with silence, but I have zero doubt that this will close as no action if a sufficient number of editors come here and !vote Oppose while ignoring those requests. In the end this is not about the totality of policy, is it? The closer here will count !votes. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:21, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Exactly, Mandruss. And, again, this editor is removing content that does NOT violate BLP as well. So much of his editing is based on removing material because he does not like it. A lot of this material is not simply mindless gossip. If one is going to remove BLP violations, then do that. Do not remove valid content as well, especially under the cover of BLP and without giving a more appropriate edit summary; that is pure deception. And I know that it seems that Nyttend would rather stay out of this, but I want to quote Nyttend again, like I did below, because it seems we are lacking aware admins at the moment. Nyttend stated, "[...] WP:V really is our primary content policy, aside from the limited situations in which we need to ignore all other rules. BLP absolutely may not be used as a trump card to censor stuff we don't like." I definitely see this case going to WP:ArbCom if no action is taken and this disruption is allowed to continue. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:41, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• I'm staying out because this gives off the appearance of being a massive sinkhole. I'm not about to support or oppose when I'm not clear what I'd be supporting or opposing, and while of course I can say "I support doing X", I'm not comfortable doing that without a clear sense of what's going on — and this section's so messy that I don't think I can get a clear sense of what's going on. I think the only routes to resolving this situation, aside from someone retiring or going rogue and getting blocked for something else, are (1) a new discussion where input is a good deal more restricted, i.e. "If you write more than X, it will be ignored", or (2) an arbitration discussion. Nyttend (talk) 20:55, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose, see above section. I support John's view. below. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:18, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support, per Jytdog above and Rivertorch below. The infighting on this ANI is absurd. Jim1138 (talk) 18:11, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Every diff I have looked at from Hillbillyholiday has been an obvious improvement to the article in my opinion. While some removals are not clear BLP violations, there is an argument to made that they all are against the spirit of BLP. I see no need for them to have further restrictions imposed beyond 3rr. AIRcorn (talk) 00:33, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support per Jytdog. Disruptive editing is disruptive and ought to be unacceptable, regardless of the editor's intentions. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 16:54, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support per Jytdog. We do not allow disruption to make a point. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - stage 2 of unwarranted, punitive and seemingly vengeful. The block didn't work, so now there's an attempt to impose a sanction to prevent HBH from ever trying to improve BLPs for the sake of making them compliant with PAGs. Do we have an essay about throwing poop against the wall to see what sticks? ^{Atsme📞📧} 14:49, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• For the record, this proposal is time-stamped 5 minutes later than the other one. Neither proposer was aware of what the other was doing. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:34, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment. Not all the sources were unreliable. That means reliable sources were also deleted. Why were reliable sources deleted? Surprising anyone would do that. QuackGuru (talk) 20:51, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support (first choice). Given Hillbillyholiday's recent edits at Uma Thurman, such as this one, which removed a considerable amount of reliably sourced content and called the sourcing "poor", I think we need this to close with more than a mere admonishment. It may be that there is a competency problem and that the user in question has difficulty in differentiating good sources from bad ones—I really don't know. But whether inadvertent or intentional, it's unacceptable and must not continue. While other users really shouldn't have to clean up after this sort of thing on a frequent basis, at least this proposal should stop the edit warring. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 04:54, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support since he is still as of this very moment making unilateral undiscussed removals of very reliably sourced relevant information, as noted by Rivertorch directly above. Seriously, more of this behavior and it's probably going to be ArbCom next time. Softlavender (talk) 05:03, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support Mostly per Rivertorch. Again, my understanding of the concern is purely based on editing behaviour. I invite uninvolved opinions to look at the latest revision history of Uma Thurman and come to the conclusion that, yes, this is the kind of editing behaviour we want. Alex Shih^Talk 05:13, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support. The diffs provided showing continued disruption, even after all the walls of text above and below, a block and a supposed break, are very telling. I deal with BLP issues every day, and I and any other experienced editor should be well aware that removal of clear BLP violations is both necessary and should be immediate, but using BLP as a get-out clause to justify blatant edit-warring in a basic content dispute is not acceptable. We do not need a super-class of editors empowered to ignore the behavioral norms for collegial editing that just about everyone else is willing to abide by, just on the excuse that they are "enforcing BLP". We should all be enforcing BLP, but we should be prepared to discuss our edits when asked to do so. The proposed sanction is not even particularly onerous -- Hillbillyholiday would still be able to participate in the BLP topic area, including without any limit at all on article talk pages or the appropriate noticeboards. And without limits where vandalism is obvious. And without limits where material or sourcing can be improved without reverting. (Let's remember we are here to build an encyclopedia: if a source is weak or "tabloid"y, then questionable material can be removed right away, but then spend some of that energy finding a better source, rather than click-click-clicking the revert button.) Given the level of disruption, this is a rather light restriction when a complete topic ban would not be unreasonable. MPS1992 (talk) 17:46, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

An alternative view

I am genuinely baffled to see so many editors, including some whose level of cluefulness I generally respect, collectively get the wrong end of the stick. Apart from Drmies, Masem, Ealdgyth and Martinevans123 who appear to have actually taken the trouble to read the diffs, I am pretty much left shaking my head here. WP:BLP is our most important policy and cannot be subverted by user conduct policies like WP:3RR.

I'm afraid I can't disagree with Hillbillyholiday's reaction to his perverse block. This whole affair brings the Wikipedia community into disrepute. I am ashamed of you. Martinevans123 asks a good question here. I challenge the hanging mob that has formed here to read the history of Michael Michael and argue that HBH's edits were not justified under the BLP exemption to 3RR. Whether it was optimal to make so many reverts rather than report to an admin noticeboard is another question, but these edits were in line with policy. The edits against him were not. I was hoping that the matter could pass off without any blocks, and to block HBH (who was right and following policy) and not Tenebrae (who was wrong and carelessly edit warred to restore libellous and inaccurate material to a BLP) cannot be allowed to stand. HBH may need some coaching about the style he uses in interacting with others, but this block is unjust and the notion of sanctioning someone who is hard-working and understands BLP (as so many commenting here appear not to) is untenable. --John (talk) 17:23, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

With all due respect — and I didn't respond to your previous comment on my talk page out of respect for your hard work as an admin and your own rightful respect of BLP — your characterization of my edit is highly out of context.

I restored because I saw an editor edit-warring who was taking a chainsaw approach — and I immediately went back into the article to remove passages cited to Daily Mail and other non-RS cites. But by then Hillbillyholiday had already slammed the Undo button and I got an "edit conflict" when I tried to save. He outright WP:OWNs articles by not giving other editors a chance to edit before he hits the revert buzzer. I think if one would have taken even a cursory look at my editing history, one would have seen edit summary after edit summary saying things like "Claims of birth date / birthplace / middle name require RS citing. WP:BLP" and "Unless an interview with the subject him/herself, Daily Mail is not RS." Saying "carelessly edit warred to restore libellous and inaccurate material to a BLP" tars me unfairly.

And your own hyperbole with the term "hanging mob" is equally unfair to all the hardworking editors who have had to put up with Hillbillyholiday's demeaning, bullying, combative behavior, which is not good for Wikipedia, as well as his ownership tendencies and his edit-warring. I think you disrespect those of us who have taken the time to comment in detail and provide copious examples regarding someone you seem to be excusing for mistreating and belittling others and who refuses to collaborate — collaboration being a cornerstone of Wikipedia.

I should also think you would stand up for a fellow admin whom he needlessly insulted and laughed at. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:29, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

You did wrong and should be ashamed of your lack of care to our project, our values and our subjects. I hope you have learned from your mistakes. If you have finally realised why your reverts were wrong, at the least you owe HBH an apology. Have you, though? It isn't obvious from reading your response. --John (talk) 17:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Tenebrae--"There's no BLP loophole when you revert RS sources"? Drmies (talk) 17:56, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

To John: I tried treating you with respect and got none in return. You are in the distinct minority for allowing HBH to get away with bullying, intimidation, ownership and edit-warring, and I think you owe me and the vast majority of us an apology — me for your horrifically out-of-context tarring of me, and the many others for unconscionably name-calling us a "hanging mob." And your attempt at intimidating me and, I gather, others with your threatening template shows a gross misappropriation of admin power and privilege. I think it's time to bring up admin revocation. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:16, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

@Drmies: 3RR doesn't apply to reverting BLP vios. However, when an editor starts edit-warring over material containing RS sources and removing personal-life claims just because he doesn't like them, 3RR does apply. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:18, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Tenebrae, sorry, but I think what you're saying is that I'm right. I don't want to be right, but I want this point made: BLP is a valid excuse until the claim is proven invalid, and you can't just say "editor X doesn't like it". You've been here a while; you know that's a lame reason. Next time, if the shoe is on the other foot and you, with some reasonable explanation, invoke the BLP, I will be on your side. Drmies (talk) 01:27, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

@Drmies: Not sure I follow. I think we agree, but from what you wrote, I'm honestly not sure. That's OK; we're talking about HBH's behavior. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:32, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

"He doesn't like it" is not a valid argument. 3RR did not apply given the invocation of the BLP, with at least a few admins agreeing on that; that some others disagree doesn't make it invalid: we err on the side of caution. RS or whatever has nothing to do with; reliable sources don't always get it right, and reliable sources aren't always used properly. Drmies (talk) 01:36, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Tenebrae, have you apologised to Hillbillyholiday yet? Do you intend to repeat your behaviour of edit-warring BLP-busting material into an article? It's understandable and very human that when when you're caught doing wrong you cast about and blame others, but at some point there has to be honest self-reflection. The alternative is that you won't be able to edit BLPs. Think about it. --John (talk) 06:35, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Your continual haranguing on my talk page and here is verging on harassment. You have now sunk to threatening me — and, may I add, over a single edit. I will ask you to stop addressing me, stop coming to my talk page and stop threatening me. Your intimidation tactics make you unfit for adminship and if you continue it will lead this issue to ARBCOM. --Tenebrae (talk) 12:39, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. --John (talk) 13:39, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

No really, shame on you User:John. You are pulling a diff out of an angry edit war (again - here is the history) and flogging it - this is very transparent propaganda technique. I showed below that the content clearly did connect to the subject of the article at one point and in any not-battleground context would have remained so. What you are doing here is terrible behavior. Really - shame on you. And people who are buying into this half-truth/ad nauseum rhetoric that John is flogging here, shame on you for falling for it. This is the last time I am going to post in this morass. But John, what you are doing here is remarkably terrible. Jytdog (talk) 19:39, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Mmmm. I'll see your dodgy rhetoric and raise you some facts. This was the article before HBH touched it and this was the version Tenebrae reverted to. Neither of those versions comes close to passing our existing policy WP:BLP as clarified by WP:ARBBLP. This could almost be used as a test; if you can't see what's wrong with those versions, you really should not be editing BLPs. Reverting to either of those versions was and is blockworthy. --John (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

So by seeing Jytdog's "dodgy rhetoric," you're adding your own? At no point did somebody claim that the article was a stunning example of a BLP. The discussion has always been about whether the reverting behavior was acceptable and in line with policy. Even for BLP reverts, one needs to tell other editors that one is reverting because of a BLP violation. Removing a ton of content because "Yikes," and then edit warring over it without comment is unequivocally disruptive to the encyclopedia. I also noticed that you haven't yet retracted your statement that somebody was accusing the article subject of murder – which is blatantly false – yet expect people to apologize for their behavior in a less-than-civil fashion: It's understandable and very human that when when you're caught doing wrong you cast about and blame others, but at some point there has to be honest self-reflection. The alternative is that you won't be able to edit BLPs. I ask that you remember WP:ADMINCOND when discussing blocks with other users. You're in a position of power, and they're right that it could come off as intimidation. AlexEng^(TALK) 01:43, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Fair enough, John. You're in the camp that believes that being in the right justifies, even requires, all manner of disruption (and it's been shown that this editor's BLP judgment has been far less than perfect anyway). Many of us disagree, and we are going to have to live with the fact that you are ashamed of us. You minimize and excuse, we don't. We recognize that there are ways to accomplish these ends that are not disruptive, although they often take longer and require some patience and self-control. It's unfortunate but this battle has to be re-fought again and again on this page because these opinions arise from personalities, core beliefs, and worldviews that don't change. For policy support for our position, you can start at WP:BATTLEGROUND; I'm not aware of an exemption there for being in the right; nor is there is a "this is a superpolicy that overrides all behavior policies" clause at WP:BLP. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:40, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned the disruption has been caused by a group of editors who care more about Wikipedia's internal rules (which in the big scheme of things don't matter a damn) than they do about falsely accusing a living person (who would have the right to sue us for defamation) of having been concerned in a murder. If this is the "camp" you are identifying with, you have no place on the project, or at least should not come within a mile of BLPs. --John (talk) 17:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel compelled to personalize this with derogatory comments about an editor you know nothing about outside this subsection, and this will end our interaction, but for your information I've collaborated quite peacefully at the Donald Trump BLP for about the past year. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

That's good to hear. If you saw someone accusing Trump on his article of being a murderer based on some sources which didn't mention him, would you be fine with that? Especially if removing it might cause "disruption"? Because that is what we are talking about here.--John (talk) 18:21, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

John, what are you talking about? At what point was This person "falsely accused" of having been "concerned" in a murder? What is the defamation? Mentioning a murder? I don't know who either of these people are, or where exactly you live, but Wikipedia does not fall under the jurisdiction of Fantasyland. You have to have actually, you know, defame someone to be guilty of defamation. Mentioning a murder is not accusing someone of doing it. There are many incidents and things that are tied together in many ways that do not involve anyone actively doing anything, they are just somehow associated. If the incident is a crime, people can be involved as witnesses. They could have been a secondary victim. It could have occurred on their property. How many on here have subsections about the 9/11 attacks? Hundreds? Thousands? Does that mean they are accused of plotting with al-Qaeda? —Мандичка^YO 😜 20:43, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

So that's a normal thing, on a neutral BLP, to discuss a murder of a third party, without any of the reliable sources connecting the subject with the murder? I'm not convinced you have thought through the implications of this. --John (talk) 21:05, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I would certainly question its relevance, but maybe it was somehow relevant. Maybe the guy whose article it was about was suddenly back in the news because he gave 700 interviews about the murder offering his opinion. But I would not claim it was falsely accusing someone of murder and subjecting to Wikipedia to a defamation lawsuit. On what grounds would that be defamation? That's completely absurd and it must be called out as such, because you are using such a claim to defend this editor's pattern of behavior in violation of Wikipedia's rules. —Мандичка^YO 😜 21:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

"Maybe" isn't good enough. It would definitely be potential defamation to link this living person with a murder using tabloid sources, though IANAL. Newyorkbrad, you might know better than me. (I can't believe we are seriously discussing this, by the way. It certainly falls foul of WP:BLP and WP:ARBBLP in any case.) --John (talk) 22:12, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

If there is actually a controversy about whether a murder should be mentioned in a BLP without any explanation of what connection there allegedly is between the BLP subject and the murder, the answer is obviously not. I'm not going to speculate on whether a court would find it defamatory (the answer might vary anyway depending on the jurisdiction), but it's not appropriate article-writing on Wikipedia. Not commenting on other aspects of this situation in case it winds up at ArbCom. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:32, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

User:Newyorkbrad To be clear, the diff that John presented above was explained by Tenebrae way above here - apparently that bit was being fiercely edit warred over (from the history that is obvious) and Tenebrae was going to tie it in. If you look at a bit older version of that article just before the edit warring, say here, you can see where the content did clearly relate the subject of the article to the topic of the murder. Sourced to The Sun, but tied in. One needs to be very careful making judgements with apparently-egregious diffs in a case like this, and I think John is acting badly by slinging that diff around that way. Jytdog (talk) 04:01, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

The diff speaks for itself. "I was going to add an "expand section" tag" is not an acceptable justification for adding potentially libellous material to a BLP. "Sourced to The Sun" is just as good as "totally unsourced" for our purposes. --John (talk) 06:17, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the diff speaks for itself: Here it is. There is no Sun here — there are two books and the History Channel. You continue to make false allegations, which no editor, let alone an admin, should me making.--Tenebrae (talk) 12:50, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Gosh. So you really still don't understand why that was an egregious breach of BLP. I recommend staying away from BLP for a while. My gob is smacked. --John (talk) 13:39, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

How dare you. My record over 12 years speaks for itself. Your argument is that after more than a decade of creating and editing BLPs that I stop because of a single edit you find objectionable? How dare you. And may I remind you that you are harassing me after you agreed above to stop doing so — and making false accusations as well. Go to the diff. Go to it. There is no Sun there. You are actively lying about me. --Tenebrae (talk) 13:46, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

No, my recommendation, which stands, is that if you feel it is ok to revert material linking a living person with a murder using sources which do not mention that person, you should refrain from editing in this area until you rectify your carelessness. --John (talk) 15:53, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

actually one more post. User:Tenebrae what you are not hearing, is that the diff that John has pulled out and is beating to death, was very bad editing. In that diff, you actually did add content to an article about a living person about a murder, and the content said nothing about the subject of the article. That is bad. In a normal context I reckon you would have added content from the source cited there -- ISBN 1845960351 mentions Michael Michael five times. And I reckon you would have not used this source at all (which is not about the great train robbery but has been hijacked or something and is just gobbledegook). You are making all this worse by not acknowledging the content that you added to Wikipedia was bad, and yes, even a BLP violation in that it didn't discuss the subject of the article. This does not make Billyhillyholiday's edit warring any better but you are actually giving them support by continuing to defend your actual edits.Jytdog (talk) 19:55, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

actually one more post. User:John you need to go back and strike every place in this morass where you have made the false claim that Tenebrae used sources which do not mention that person. And I mean that. Jytdog (talk) 20:00, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I appreciate your reasoned post, which not everyone here seems capable of writing. John is choosing to ignore something I said earlier, and since it's become lost in this morass it's understandable you didn't see it: I saw a rogue user chainsawing multiple articles. I restored, I believe, three sentences that were cited to books and the History Channel. I was about to put an "expand section" tag on it and research / write more then and there, but User:Hillbillyholiday immediately reverted in a clear example of WP:OWN. I don't believe any reasonable person would look at two book cites and a History Chanel cite and think that this wasn't a relevant passage vetted by two authors and a channel devoted to history.--Tenebrae (talk) 20:34, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

User:Tenebrae I know that you said that. The thing is, that you saved an edit that violated BLP. Period, fact, done, and diff-able. I understand clearly that you were in a hot editing war, but especially when BLP is being stated as the reason, it was very unwise of you to not actually address the problem and add well sourced content tying the article subject to the topic before you saved the edit. It was right there in the source and very do-able. You let the context drive you to save a bad edit. You own that now. What would allow the steam to come off you would be for you to actually acknowledge that you are very aware that the edit that you saved was a BLP violation and was a mistake you made in the midst of a hot editing war. Continuing to skip around that only feeds the fire. Jytdog (talk) 21:01, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

There was no BLP issue. The two sentences said 1) Wilson (not now a living person) moved to Spain, where according to two authors he was suspected of drug smuggling, and 2) Wilson lost some investors £3million, cited to the History Channel. Factual, RS-documented statements. And we're not even talking about a living person, so I'm not sure how BLP applies. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:07, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

yes that is the correct, there were two sentences about the murder of Wilson. In an article about Michael Michael - with nothing tying the content to Michael. That is why it is a BLP violation - you cannot just go adding content about murders to articles about people, as the obvious assumption a reader takes away is that the article subject had something to do with it. Acknowledge that already.Jytdog (talk) 05:20, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

And as I've said for now the third time, I restored a properly cited passage that a rampant edit-warrior had removed, and was about to put an "expand section" tag and immediately go to work on it when that editor WP:OWNed the article and refused to let anyone else work on that section. When two authors and the History channel are talking about this subject, no one would have any reason to believe that authoritative, RS sources are making things up or not indicating any sort of relevance. I'm not so hubristic to think I know better than professional historians. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:16, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

One of those authors was Algarve Daily News? But what connection exactly did Michael Michael have to the murder of Charlie Wilson? It seems somewhat tenuous. Non-existent even? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:50, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't object to the block for edit-warring here, but don't feel any ANI-based action is called for. Using the talk page is the desired way to make large changes such as this, not repeatedly reverting. Even in the case of an IP editor restoring questionable (but long-standing) material that may be a BLP violation, some discussion on the talk page should be expected. Power~enwiki (talk) 18:02, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Power~enwiki, this editor does not discuss the matter unless essentially forced to. It takes multiple editors reverting him to even get him to the talk page to try to justify his edits. And even when he discusses his edits, he still plans to revert and often does revert afterward. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:23, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Just to clarify, User:John, are you saying that you "can't disagree" with this reaction even including the part of it that uses what Wikipedia describes as a derogatory term for a person affected by mental disorder? MPS1992 (talk) 18:20, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I can't identify with the tone of the comment, but then I have never been wrongly blocked as a result of a campaign against my correct edits, so I don't know how angry I would be. I do identify with HBH's annoyance. He is right to be annoyed. --John (talk) 18:23, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I can't help but agree with John. I've read through every edit made by HBH in the past two weeks in the articles linked in the complaint. As far as I can tell, they were all justified on BLP grounds. They were all removing either egregious BLP violations or swathes of gossip-column rubbish, mostly sourced to tabloid newspapers. They did indeed remove entire sections of articles; that is because those articles had entire sections of crap. We should be supporting this type of editing. What is disruptive is re-adding this material without discussion. Where material is challenged on a BLP, the onus is on those in favour of inclusion to establish consensus for it; this is BLP 101. I am sorely tempted to hand out six month topic bans from BLPs to several editors involved here to drive that point home. GoldenRing (talk) 18:24, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

"They were all justified on BLP grounds"? Not true at all. No BLP violation here. No BLP violation here (as noted by an admin later on). Editors felt that the material in this case should be trimmed, but the material was not deemed a BLP violation and some of it was kept. No BLP violation here. No BLP violation here. Just a lot of "I don't like it" removals. When it comes to Hillbillyholiday, there are various cases like that. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:56, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Really? WP:BLP says Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone. How is describing someone as one of the "sexiest women in the world" sourced to primary sources not a violation of that? And describing someone as having a "public meltdown" in Wikipedia's voice? Your characterisation of the BLPN as "not deemed a BLP violation" is just wrong; nearly every editor commenting there agreed there were problems. The policy says, BLPs should not have trivia sections. How does a list of Rihana's tattoos not violate that? As regards Cristiano Ronaldo, you've cherry-picked one edit out of a series that included removing the names of his children. These are clear BLP issues and if you can't see that, you shouldn't be editing BLPs. GoldenRing (talk) 19:34, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

All those are cases of being BOLD in light of what BLP recommends: the initial wholesale removal, and likely the 1st removal re-revert by HBH is completely in line with policy because they are questionable BLP material. Now, after some discussion some of this material has been deemed by editors to be appropriate (I have my doubts on some of these, but let's assume there was consensus after debate), so removing it again after that point would be blatantly disruptive. But that I don't see being done by reviewing their history.

What is of issue is definitely the lack of starting discussion by HBH after being reverted or re-reverted. I don't think the initial removals need to be explained (but it would be advisable to start a talk page section on such massive cuts), but re-reverting to remove should be an automatic trigger to either start a new discussion or engage in a new discussion to gain the consensus or whether to keep or not. That's not been happening so some cautionary sanction to get them to participate in discussions more is needed. That said, it would also significantly help that if HBH has done one removal, that those re-adding should start a discussion/continue one on why the material is okay. There's a general lack of communication overall here, edit warring by edit summaries is not helpful.

Separately, I do think there needs to be a review of BLP in relationship to "gossip" news as most of those are. They aren't gross violations of BLP but they step over a line I think an encyclopedia should be handling. The fact that many editors think this okay material to include is troubling. However, that's beyond the scope of this. --MASEM (t) 19:47, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@Masem: HBH was removing content in accordance with BLP. He has every right to do so. It is the responsibility of those re-inserting the material to start a discussion and seek consensus for it. To sanction HBH for their failure to do so would be perverse. Moreover, HBH did start discussions on Talk:Jennifer Lawrence and WP:BLPN and participated in discussions at Talk:Megan Fox, Talk:Shia LaBeouf, Talk:Kanye West and Talk:Britney Spears - so I'm not sure I see the problem here. GoldenRing (talk) 19:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

He started those discussions after edit warring. And, no, articles should not be held hostage by his skewed view of BLP violations and because he removes things he does not like. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:11, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

GoldenRing, yes, really, which is why a respected admin did not find the Britney Spears matter to be a BLP violation. Spears has acknowledged the breakdown/meltdown; it happened and is described as a breakdown/meltdown in numerous reliable sources. There is nothing contentious about the bit at all. The bit is about inspiration for a character specifically based on Spears's breakdown. You asked, "How is describing someone as one of the 'sexiest women in the world' sourced to primary sources not a violation of that?" Do read the Jennifer Lawrence talk page again. Being perceived as physically attractive is a significant aspect of Lawrence's public image; it should be covered with WP:Due weight. Using WP:In-text attribution to note that a magazine listed Lawrence as "sexiest [whatever]" is not a WP:BLP violation in any sense of the word. Rihanna's tattoos are a significant aspect of her public image; so some mention of them should be covered in her article. As much as some of you hate it, celebrity looks, whether their physical attributes or fashion, are often a big deal. We have sex symbols and fashion idols. And when these aspects are covered by numerous reliable sources, we give due weight to those aspects. We do not ignore it because we do not like it. I agreed above, in the initial part of this thread, that the tattoo material was overkill. I stated, "Regarding the Rihanna article, I can't judge the material that way since it was added there, presumably, by a number of editors and had been there for sometime. So it seems to me that some people care(d) about the material. Maybe even a lot of people since the subject is Rihanna. When it's substantial material, even if about a lot of tattoos, I think it is often better to discuss the removal first. See again what SNUGGUMS stated above. In some cases, some features of a celebrity have received substantial media attention and are a part of that celebrity's public image. In the Rihanna case, I would not have added that much detail about her tattoos; I would have perhaps named a few, the ones which seem most relevant, judging by sources on the topic, and included a bit of author commentary on the matter and a bit of commentary from her, if available. I take more of an analytical and WP:Preserve approach, assessing whether or not the particular aspect is significant with regard to the subject or whether it is WP:Undue. Not just for celebrity articles, but for all types of articles." And as we can see with this edit, Martinevans123 replied, "I think you make some very cogent, reasonable and valid points there. I'm not sure Rihanna's tattoos are worth preserving in an encyclopedia but, hey, what do I know. I guess there's a place for most things."

My characterization of the BLPN discussion is on point; where are all editors there stating that the material is a BLP violation? "Some problems" does not equate to "BLP violations." As for the Cristiano Ronaldo article, that is not cherry picking; that is me pointing to one edit that is not a BLP violation since you incorrectly asserted that all of Hillbillyholiday's removals are BLP violations. Judging by your comments in this thread, you simply do not want to include "looks" and "fashion" material because you do not like it; Wikipedia does not work that way. Thank goodness we have editors working on these celebrity articles who know what should be included per WP:Preserve and comprehensiveness. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:08, 24 August 2017 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:15, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

You quote from WP:Preserve and WP:UNDUE repeatedly through this discussion, but you have completely failed to interact with the policy at WP:BLPN. I don't care if Lawrence's appearance is significant or not; the policy explicitly states if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources. The statement was entirely primary-sourced. Describing a "public meltdown" is tabloid trash and it was sourced to a single source (mtv.com). I can't believe we're even discussing this, but at that BLPN discussion, Collect, Ritchie333, TonyBallioni and Tenebrae either objected to the material on BLP grounds or wrote words equivalent to "I agree with HBH". Wikimandia was the only editor at that discussion to argue there was no BLP problem with the removed material (SundayClose appears to have accepted that there were BLP problems but thought the removal was too broad and DIYeditor didn't express an opinion). Policy is clear that you must not re-insert material challenged on BLP grounds without consensus; that some of the material is not (or may not be) a BLP violation is no excuse. In that case, you re-insert only the parts that are not a violation. Again, I can't believe I have to explain this to you. I've seen other editors arguing that they were re-inserting so that they could then edit the material down; this is again explicitly disallowed by the BLP policy; The idea expressed in Wikipedia:Eventualism—that every Wikipedia article is a work in progress, and that it is therefore okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape—does not apply to biographies. Given their potential impact on biography subjects' lives, biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times. Wikipedia works by following our policies, BLP is among the most important of them, and on all of the above points, policy is excruciatingly clear and you are simply ignoring it. GoldenRing (talk) 20:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Some of us tried to "re-insert only the parts that are not a violation." HBH refused to allow even that, and edit-warred, without discussion. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:23, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

You stated, "You quote from WP:Preserve and WP:UNDUE repeatedly through this discussion, but you have completely failed to interact with the policy at WP:BLPN." No, I haven't. You simply are misinterpreting WP:BLP. At the Jennifer Lawrence talk page, SNUGGUMS, FrB.TG, Krimuk2.0, and Mattbuck were/are all correct. Hillbillyholiday was/is wrong. This is why if you take the case to the BLP noticeboard, no one will agree that the Jennifer Lawrence material is a BLP violation. I'm not going over the Spears matter again with you. Regarding Amanda Bynes, you are somewhat incorrect. There was no agreement that all of the material should stay removed; this is why some of it was restored. In fact, some of it was restored by TonyBallioni. We are having this discussion for valid reasons. Wikipedia:Edit warring#Exemptions states, "If you are claiming an exemption, make sure there is a clearly visible edit summary or separate section of the talk page that explains the exemption. When in doubt, do not revert. Instead, engage in dispute resolution, and in particular ask for help at relevant noticeboards such as the Edit war/3RR noticeboard." In some of these cases, Hillbillyholiday should not have been reverting. Including material about a celebrity being perceived as physically attractive or being known for their fashion sense or tattoos is not a BLP violation when sourced to high-quality primary or secondary sources. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:06, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Including material about a celebrity being perceived as physically attractive or being known for their fashion sense or tattoos is not a BLP violation when sourced to high-quality primary or secondary sources. (emphasis mine) This is simple IDHT. I've pointed out to you repeatedly that WP:BLP states, in simple language, that secondary sources are required for BLPs. GoldenRing (talk) 21:16, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, this is WP:IDHT...on your part. Let's take the matter to the WP:BLP talk page and/or the WP:BLP noticeboard and see how many editors agree with you. Let's see how many support de-listing our FAs that include material about a celebrity being perceived as physically attractive or being known for their fashion sense or tattoos when it is WP:DUE and is sourced to high-quality primary or secondary sources. I have far more experience on these matters than you do, which should be clear by my history at the BLP talk page. WP:BLP does not state that "secondary sources are required." That is your skewed interpretation. WP:BLP states "a reliable, published source." The New York Times fits that description. If it reports on a favorable or less than favorable matter on a celebrity, we can include that source with due weight. Look at some of our political articles, like Barack Obama or Donald Trump; there are tons and tons of media/news/primary sources in those articles for all sorts of things and no one is crying "BLP violation." Barack Obama is a FA article. WP:PRIMARY states, "Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses. Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies." Nothing in there about primary sources being forbidden. And notice that it does not focus on media/news sources as primary sources. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:30, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

References

The idea that all of HBH's removals were justified is absurd. As I have pointed out, a big clue that HBH is not acting in good faith is his ENTIRE removal of the personal section about Amanda Bynes which he/she then claimed was all primary sourced, with no secondary sources and had no reliable sources. Not ONE single source was primarily sourced. And the majority were sourced to the LA Times, with the rest CBS News, NBC News, and a few People mag (which is not considered tabloid) and I think one or two E! Online. HBH also claimed it was a "blow-by-blow" retelling of Bynes issues, which is an absolute lie, since Bynes' troubles went on for years and there were dozens upon dozens of other widely covered incidents that were not included. And on top of that bullshit, HBH complained indignantly that there was no attempt to "add perspective" or "weave it into the story of her career!!!!!" Where oh where in BLP guidelines are we instructed to add personal perspective of criminal arrests and medical incidents as it relates to their careers? And HBH superfans, please explain, was HBH lying, or does he/she not understand what a primary vs secondary source or what meets the definition of reliable source? —Мандичка^YO 😜 20:24, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: I suggest you go and read the policy at WP:NOR, the supplementary material at WP:PRIMARYNEWS and then come back and strike the above comment. News articles (such as all those cited in that section) are, according to our policies, primary sources. GoldenRing (talk) 20:57, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

The key language of concern is from WP:3RRBLP: Removing violations of the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy that contain libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material. What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption. Very little of what HBH removed fits "libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material", meaning that HBH cannot edit war to retain. The material falls under the second point "what counts as exempt" and which is "controversial" (for example: this discussion shows that there is question if the material is of this type). Thus, after being BOLD, and the edits reverts, continued edit warring without discussion is a problem. Again, I think there is also a larger problem of what is being considered acceptable under BLP, but that's not this board's purpose to solve. --MASEM (t) 20:40, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Luckily we don't have to solve it, Masem, as WP:ARBBLP already clarified: Wikipedia articles that present material about living people can affect their subjects' lives. Wikipedia editors who deal with these articles have a responsibility to consider the legal and ethical implications of their actions when doing so. In cases where the appropriateness of material regarding a living person is questioned, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm." This means, among other things, that such material should be removed until a decision to include it is reached, rather than being included until a decision to remove it is reached. I would argue that all or almost all of HBH's edits fell into this. --John (talk) 21:45, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

ArbCom findings of fact unfortunately are not really enforceable. I still think that further discussion on where celebrity gossip-y type material (not TMZ-type levels but minor arrests, drug rehab/etc. type stuff that other more reliable sources might cover) should fit into a BLP picture to be clear if this is truly controversial and falls into material that allows 3RR exceptions, or not. --MASEM (t) 14:01, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

ArbCom findings of fact are as enforceable as we make them be. DS allows for this. Hence the notifications which seem to have ruffled a few feathers. Once editors have received the notifications, any future noncompliance can be dealt with by topic bans. GoldenRing seems to have right idea here. --John (talk) 15:50, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Since John seems to be threatening all the editors with whom he disagrees, I would remind him that Wikipedia has processes in place to prevent rogue admins from doing anything they please to anyone anytime just because they've place a DS template. It's not a license to kill. And if he continues to harass me — as he's done on this page after agreeing (at 13:39, 25 August 2017) not to address me, which shows his word means nothing — or Wikistalk me, that will be responded to under the proper processes. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:47, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

When BLP says quite plainly that certain classes of dubious content whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion it is against policy to argue that removal of that material requires discussion. That so many editors here are ready to undermine BLP is disturbing. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 12:46, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Oppose This is purely punitive. GoldenRing (talk) 2:14 pm, Today (UTC−4)

With all due respect, threatening punitive blocks to users of the community (especially after you called the block vote punitive itself) is wildly uncalled for and inappropriate, especially when the community is trying to reach a consensus where the admins failed to. WP:ADMINACCT. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 18:55, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm struggling to parse this. Can you explain what your point is? --John (talk) 19:03, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Threatening to block users in a situation in which one is involved is uncalled for. Justifying it with a reason he used to oppose a different block is concerning ("punitive"). — nihlus kryik  (talk) 19:09, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

This is just bizarre. I'm not involved. I didn't threaten to block anyone. Do you have any other points to make? Or perhaps you'd consider striking this? GoldenRing (talk) 19:17, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. If we are talking about GoldenRing, what makes him INVOLVED in your opinion? And a six-month topic ban is not a block. I agree that we need sanctions against the worst offenders here. BLP is too important to allow those who do not understand it anywhere near it. --John (talk) 19:19, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I apologize as I misread topic ban for block. I won't strike it out as to not change the meaning of my original sentence. However, a unilateral topic ban is uncalled for at this point in this discussion, as you've stated it would be done to make a point. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 19:27, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Where has GoldenRing stated that? --John (talk) 19:29, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

"...to drive that point home." — nihlus kryik  (talk) 19:32, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I find that strange considering that you yourself referred to WP:BLOCKDETERRENT at 15:44. If HBH is to be sanctioned I think there are a whole swathe of people who should also be. --John (talk) 19:42, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't disagree. I think there are two users who edit warred alongside him; however, I believe HBH is the crux of the problem and the most important to resolve first. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 19:45, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

This is not a ban to make a point; this is perfectly normal topic ban for editors who have consistently edited against policy under BLP DS. GoldenRing (talk) 19:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm curious (since I genuinely don't know), I thoughts bans can only be handed out unilaterally by administrators via discretionary sanctions, right? Are BLP articles included in that? (I couldn't find anything on it so I don't know.) — nihlus kryik  (talk) 19:57, 24 August 2017 (UTC) Found it. That's what I get for searching BLP and nothing else. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 19:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

(ec) @Nihlus Kryik: see WP:ARBBLP. Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised. GoldenRing (talk) 20:02, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Then I wouldn't be opposed to them on certain users as long as HBH was included. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 20:04, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Speaking for myself, I will not sanction someone for upholding BLP policy. There is a fundamental difference between reverting violations out of an article and reverting them back in. GoldenRing (talk) 20:07, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I believe we can respectfully disagree on the events that took place and who is responsible for what. However, you don't need my support or approval to enforce Arbcom sanctions. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 20:11, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Very concerning that so many here are missing the main point......even if every edit was justified and all agree that all edits where BLP compliant. We as a community have behavioral expectations .......one of the main ones is communication ....especially when asked to do so by others. What we as a community are looking for are those with the abilities to talk things out and explain to others what reasoning there is behind edits. Read WP:EPTALK - WP:UNRESPONSIVE - WP:CAUTIOUS.--Moxy (talk) 22:41, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
• I'm not supporting or opposing any of the proposals because I don't believe this will be resolved at ANI. Frankly, this is one of the worst train wrecks I've seen in 11 years on Wikipedia. Coincidentally, many of the other train wrecks have involved the same issues: BLP, failure to communicate, and INVOLVED. I have little use for fancruft, gossip, and the like—even when it's well-sourced—but I wouldn't dream of edit-warring to remove vast passages of an article. Doing so is disruptive. Hillbillyholiday's approach seems rather like using a nuclear bomb to destroy an anthill, and citing BLP to justify this sort of thing seems rather disingenuous. Removing 2500 bytes of content to kill a 25-byte BLP violation? I guess it might be incompetence, not deliberate disruption, but the effect is certainly disruptive, all the same. Once again, BLP is being used as a sort of trump card, as if invoking one policy gives a user carte blanche to ignore other policies, including CONSENSUS. In the wake of all this, enter an administrator with a history both of disrespecting consensus on BLP sources and of clashing with the principal complainant over the same. Thus, fuel is thrown on the fire, and any possibility that this situation can be deescalated flies out the window. And in the wake of that, a vast number of users, some of them normally quite levelheaded and several of whom I respect highly, feel the need to stick up for Hillbillyholiday—positive past interactions apparently being sufficient to excuse present disruptive conduct. Hell, I've had positive interactions, or at least neutral ones, with Hillbillyholiday, but that has nothing to do with this ANI complaint. Small wonder so many of us dread coming to ANI. File a substantive complaint in good faith, as Flyer22 Reborn did, and wind up getting threatened with blocks and bans for your trouble. Is this really the best we can do? Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 16:54, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Can you show a diff for Removing 2500 bytes of content to kill a 25-byte BLP violation please? --John (talk) 17:40, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't know, John. Likely I could, but I want to go through my watchlist before I go to sleep, and I'd much rather not spend the next half hour examining diffs and counting characters. I invoked bytes by way of reinforcing what I said about nuking an anthill, so unless I'm led to believe that finding a diff approximating those numbers will lead to a happy outcome, perhaps you'd better consider that sentence metaphorical. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 05:37, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

You may take your time within reason to find the evidence for the allegation you have made, but you should be aware that in the context of making allegations about a user at the admin's noticeboard, allegations which are not able to be evidenced may be held against you. This is really not the place for "metaphorical" allegations. Either it happened or it did not. You should find evidence (one or more diffs) or else strike through that part of your statement. --John (talk) 16:32, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I was not going to respond since Rivertorch's eloquent and accurate commentary stands on its own, but it's easy to see that he was referring to something like this Britney Spears matter, in which Hillbillyholiday removed a lot of material while voicing his belief that the "meltdown" portion is a BLP violation. You know, the same "meltdown" portion that was ruled not to be a BLP violation? Any exaggeration that Rivertorch made is hardly an exaggeration. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:35, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Flyer22 Reborn, the diff was slightly off but it helped me to understand the problem better. --John (talk) 21:15, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

@John: You're exceptionally diligent in addressing editors you disagree with and making them "aware" of things. Scarcely an opportunity do you miss. What you might want to consider is that you're not the only one in the community with a satisfactory working knowledge of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and what's more, some of us are quite able to grasp not only the letter but the spirit of such rules. While I stand by my use of metaphor here—the nuke, the anthill, and the units of binary data—I recognize that occasionally a reader will fail to recognize metaphor or dispute its usefulness as a rhetorical device. Since you apparently fall into that camp, I shall endeavor, in the unlikely event that I make any further comments in this thread, to employ absolute literalness in every sentence. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 21:03, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Rivertorch, when you say "absolute literalness in every sentence", do you literally mean absolute? Do you absolutely mean every? Just for future reference. EEng 01:26, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Rivertorch, your wording was rather too elegant there. So for my part, I will clarify. If User:John made less use of veiled threats to try to force other editors to kowtow to his preferences, then he would find his views taken more seriously by ordinary editors. This is a collaborative project to build an encyclopedia, and editors who have such easy resort to threats are not behaving collaboratively. MPS1992 (talk) 01:38, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Nobody since at least the days of Aristotle would take as a veiled threat a request to back up one's assertions with evidence or not be taken seriously. Flyer22 Reborn answered this question at 17:35 yesterday, it was a good question and a good answer, and here you are at 01:38 the next day trying to make trouble about it. "Kowtow to his preferences"? Really? --John (talk) 01:45, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining that you mistakenly wrote may be held against you (followed with a demand that another editor strike part of their post) when you actually meant to write "not be taken seriously". As for "01:38 the next day", you can be called out for failing to act collegially here even after an interval longer than a mere eight hours. MPS1992 (talk) 02:30, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

You're welcome. Yes, it's called the burden of proof. Glad to have been of service. --John (talk) 02:35, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

John's chilling effect tactics

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Do note John's'chilling effect here, here, here, here, here and here simply because he is not getting his way. This is ridiculous. He knows damn well, as mentioned at the beginning of this thread, that he is WP:INVOLVED with me (and likely others) and should not be threatening editors in this way, given that a number of editors disagree with him above. Apparently, we are all violating BLP and are all vandals, despite the BLP policy showing otherwise. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:38, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Boilerplate notifications are hardly chilling lol. So long as you ain't violating blp that is. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:44, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This isn't really the place for this. Arbcom does not restrict alerts to uninvolved editors or admins. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 20:44, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

They are when he is WP:INVOLVED and intends to block for content that is not a BLP violation. If he is going to be upholding all of Hillbillyholiday's problematic edits, that is a problem, as outlined quite well by Hobit, Martinevans123, and numerous others. This matter might just be going to WP:Arbcom. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

The Arbcom notice is required for sanctions to be placed. There is no indication the sanction will come from him, as placing sanctions is the only thing WP:INVOLVED restricts in this scenario. If there are sanctions to be had, they will surely come from someone else. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 20:53, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• As others have noted, and as the template clearly says (This message contains important information about an administrative situation on Wikipedia. It does not imply any misconduct regarding your own contributions to date.), there is no implication of guilt in placing the notice. It's just an administrative notice as you have to be made aware of an Arbcom restriction in case you breach it. Only by breaching it after the notice would you be at risk. And it probably wouldn't be me placing the restriction or block. Nothing to worry about. By the way, you're supposed to notify me if you start a discussion about me. I've taken the liberty of correcting the spelling of my name, I hope you don't mind. --John (talk) 21:00, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

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Did I "outline that quite well"? That's news to me. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:09, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: I did wonder how you would feel at having your name taken in vain. Flyer22 Reborn has repeatedly taken your comment earlier in this discussion as support of their position. GoldenRing (talk) 21:18, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I mean to ping Mandruss, not you.

As for the rest, I think it is abundantly clear why John added the templates. He views us as in the wrong and believes he is in the right, despite a number of editors disagreeing with him. As noted near the beginning of the thread, he wrongly templated me before years ago, in what a number of editors saw as a chilling effect tactic/inappropriate threat. I don't see that he has yet added the template to the talk pages of others. He has so far chosen a select few. And given his history with me, adding the template to my talk page, as though I am some newbie and/or disruptive editor, all the while protecting a disruptive editor, was completely inappropriate. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:17, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: you really need to drop the stick. Power~enwiki (talk) 21:19, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

After having your assertion of the essay BLUDGEON as a call for boomerang shot down in flames, you persist in abusing well-known and well-understood editing principles. STICK applies when the target is in a clear minority, usually a minority of 1. Please stop throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:26, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't care what the magic words are. Flyer22 Reborn is on a crusade to get this user banned permanently at ANI, and he's past the point of being reasonable. If he doesn't let other editors discuss this, somebody should take action against him. Power~enwiki (talk) 21:34, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

You've had the policy that explicitly allows any editor to place these templates explained to you. Repeating the false allegation is a personal attack. Stop. GoldenRing (talk) 21:21, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Sighs. I learn from history. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:23, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

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Clarification

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GoldenRing, regarding this and this, it was me clarifying and content being added as a matter of intermediate edits. See this matter earlier with Alex Shih? He thanked me via WP:Echo. He did not undo my edits. Also, since you are involved with this thread, should you really be closing sub-threads related to it? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, in principle, that hypothetically WP:INVOLVED admins shouldn't be closing threads, but the place to discuss that is an AN closure review, not yet another sub-thread. . AlexEng^(TALK) 22:04, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I believe it is unconscionable for an involved editor to close a threat. That is pure conflict-of-interest. If one is certain one is in the right, then one lets a disinterested editor close.

As for John's template placed on the talk pages of editors who opposed him, that is clearly designed as intimidation. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:27, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

John placed the template, yes. He doesn't seem to agree with those he templated, true also. He did so because he truly believed that those he templated were not careful enough. Y'all, this is just a template. You can remove it, you can shrug it off--it's not a block. It's not "clearly designed as intimidation", Tenebrae, and I wish you'd show a bit more good faith. BTW GoldenRing or any other admin isn't involved (as in WP:INVOLVED) until it is clear that they...well, you can read it for yourself. That they're in here expressing an opinion about policy and its application doesn't mean they can't close a subthread. I'm sorry, but what is this complete lack in admins' ability to walk and chew gum simultaneously? They went through quite an ordeal to get the mop; have a little faith in them. Drmies (talk) 01:34, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I can't agree with you about Johh, but I'm over this particular template issue. And I did indeed remove it from my talk page. But I do want to note that there are also proposal sub-threads; John and GoldenRing would be WP:INVOLVED if they closed those. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:41, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

While I hadn't planned on posting more here after saying my piece, I should probably respond to conversation involving me. I would ask: If the template wasn't meant to be intimidating, why did he place it only on the pages of those editors who disagree with him? Second, why place the template at all when, for example, I haven't touched a single page involved in the HBH ANI since becoming joining it? And third, who places discretionary sanctions? Admins. So call it a warning, call it a threat. Whatever you call it, I don't believe I'm showing bad faith — if I had bad faith, I wouldn't have opened up my very first comments to him at the ANI with an acknowledgment of admins' hard work and respect for what I thought were his good intentions. My concern is based on the three well-thought-out reasons I have given here. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:14, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Note after close: This matter did continue in a separate thread. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:04, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hillbillyholiday edit warring at my talk page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Hillbillyholiday decided to edit war over content on my talk page, and may continue to do so. See here and here. And my followup note here. Sro23 is one of the editor's to revert Hillbillyholiday. The section started off as a mocking section by Hillbillyholiday. An IP started a query that maybe Hillbillyholiday is a sock account; I mentioned this above to the suspected main account. I did not encourage the IP's beliefs; in fact, I challenged the IP's beliefs and suggested that the IP start a WP:Sock investigation. Another IP showed up stating the same beliefs, and is likely the same person. The thing is: A number of editors get sock queries on their talk pages. I've gotten a number because I've caught a lot of socks. Given this, and the fact that the section started off as a mocking section by Hillbillyholiday and is a section I used as evidence against Hillbillyholiday above, I do not see why Hillbillyholiday should be able to remove this section from my talk page. Neither should any WP:INVOLVED administrator. I've seen worse at EEng's talk page (some of it funny, but worse). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:44, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

He removed accusations of sockpuppetry twice, hardly editwarring, and he also pointed to WP:ASPERSIONS to give a fair enough policy as to why, ain't it time you dropped this carp and get over it. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:56, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

He removed what is, in part, a mocking section twice. A mocking section that he started. As for the rest, see what I stated above. Are we to remove all sock queries from our talk pages? If so, I suppose we should have a wide-scale RfC on it, since it is allowed so often. You are on the opposite side of the "Hillbillyholiday is disruptive" debate. Isn't it time that you stop supporting a disruptive editor? I will also take the time to note that if Hillbillyholiday is watching my talk page because he intends to watch me, he should know that stalking me is unlikely to do him any favors. In fact, stalking me never bodes well for the unwanted stalker. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:06, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

WP:ASPERSIONS states, in part, "It is unacceptable for an editor to routinely accuse others of misbehavior without reasonable cause. Legitimate concerns of fellow editors' conduct should be raised either directly with the editor in question, in a civil fashion, or if necessary on an appropriate noticeboard or dispute-resolution page. Although broad leeway is granted to allow editors to express themselves in their interactions with one another, particularly in dispute resolution, a consistent pattern of making objectively unsupported or exaggerated claims of misconduct can necessitate sanctions or restrictions even if the editor subjectively believes that they are true."

The IP(s) felt they had a reasonable cause for voicing their concern on my talk page. True, they should have taken the matter to one of the account's talk pages or started a sock investigation, but I do not see that the IP was acting with malice. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:28, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

At this point, I am ready for an interaction ban between Flyer22 Reborn and Hillbillyholiday. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 16:17, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I would accept a one-way interaction ban since a number of editors agree that Hillbillyholiday has been disruptive across a number of articles. He is also steadily trying to provoke editors. What did he think that starting that section on my talk page would accomplish? What did he think that removing that section from my talk page would accomplish? By this, I mean that he had to know that I would not take kindly to him doing the removing. Why would he think that he is the best person to do that? If he had a serious concern, he should have taken the matter to the appropriate forum and sought for uninvolved editors to assess the situation. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:28, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

A one-way ban would imply approval of your actions, when both of you have only made the situation worse by bickering at one another in every way possible. Another editor can create a proposal if they wish, but it is something I highly recommend and would fully support. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 16:32, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

The only place I have "bickered" with Hillbillyholiday is above in this thread, where a lot of other editors have been bickering with one another. I don't consider my arguments with Hillbillyholiday in this thread to be bickering; I consider them solid arguments against his mass disruption. On my talk page, I defended myself; I did not bicker. Unless it can be shown that I have been disruptive across a number of articles, a two-way interaction ban pertaining to any articles would be punishing me for disruption I have not caused. It would mean that if Hillbillyholiday goes and makes a highly questionable or problematic edit to an article, I cannot revert him. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:42, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 16:45, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I thiunk it shoud be noted that HBH seems to have now been the target of procovation by another editor, who has also been involved in this debate, with this edit and this edit. I really think such edits are uncalled for and that the editor concerned should be kindly asked to desist. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:47, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I don't think that involved editors should be touching each other's talk pages like this. FlightTime, your response? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:50, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Really ? I removed a blatant copyvio, block me. - FlightTime (open channel) 17:02, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't block you (I can't anyway). And I understand why you made the removal. But since you are involved, there was no way that Hillbillyholiday was going to accept you making the removal. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:10, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

This whole fucking thing has become some kind of "over the top nothing else to do but create drama fest." I am not wasting any more of my time, unless someone has someting very official to say to me or point me to, STOP PINGING ME ! - FlightTime (open channel) 17:18, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I hope you do realize that WP:INVOLVED does not extend to COPYVIO removals, and neither does WP:3RR, so even if HBH doesn't accept the removal it needs to be removed anyways. SkyWarrior 17:24, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

WP:INVOLVED is about administrators; I was not suggesting that FlightTime violated that policy. I was simply noting that FlightTime is an involved editor, and that it was not a good idea for him to do the removing himself. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:28, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

But the spirit of WP:INVOLVED plays in effect here, so it's relevant. And being involved does not, and should not, prevent someone from removing blatant copyright violations. SkyWarrior 17:33, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

WP:INVOLVED is about involved administrators. FlightTime is not an administrator; he is an involved regular editor with what has become a tempestuous relationship with Hillbillyholiday. Because of my involvement with the Hillbillyholiday matter, I would not have removed that content from his page. I do not think that FlightTime should have either; he should have brought the matter to another's attention (someone uninvolved) or taken it to an appropriate forum. That is all that I am stating; I'm not attacking FlightTime. I appreciate his help in the Hillbillyholiday case. But on this matter, I agree with Martinevans123. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:08, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

That's not provoking an editor, that's removing a blatant copyright violation and warning them as such. SkyWarrior 17:06, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Normally, yes, that's all it would be. I think the context here makes it unhelpful and unnecessary. I'm not sure posting an extract from the lyrics of a song is "a blatant copyright violation". And as far as User pages and User Talk pages are concerned, I'd suggest that it's expected to perhaps make a request, not just to dive in and remove it without any warning? I think I'd find that a bit pointy, myself, even it was from a perfect stranger. But I now see that HBH has sorted it himself. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:08, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Oppose IBAN - More accurately, Oppose discussion of IBAN as an unnecessary distraction from the matter at hand. For that matter, all of these little side issues are unnecessary distractions from the matter at hand, and they will only ensure that all this editor time is a pointless waste, once again. The principle that any ANI complaint is wide open to expansion by anybody to examine anything about anybody is an unequivocal disaster. It is a large part of why ANI is broken. Somebody please show me one example of something in the real world where such a thing has been remotely effective. No such example exists, and for good reason: It Can't Work, even if all such expansion is done in good faith, which it is not. Flyer22 Reborn, this thread was a mistake in my opinion. If HBH's other behavior doesn't earn him a sanction, nothing will, and all you've done is add to the number of editors who are ignoring this complaint because it's just too damn long. I suggest you withdraw it or someone uninvolved close it. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:04, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Oppose discussion? That's not how any of this works. If an IBAN is not taken, then this will end up at Arbcom in quick order. If you want that, then so be it. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 17:11, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

The main issue is Hillbillyholiday's behavior. It is likely that he will be taken to ArbCom, but there is no basis for taking me to ArbCom. My interaction with Hillbillyholiday echoes numerous others' interactions with him, as this overall WP:ANI report shows. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:23, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Your behavior has WP:BLUDGEONed the crap out of this discussion. And keep in mind, I think HBH should be taken care of as I was the first to report his edit warring to WP:ANEW. But your need to respond to almost every single comment with walls of text has only hindered the chance of getting the results we both want. I don't care if you started the discussion. You should allow others to contribute and then collectively respond to them, especially if you see a common theme in their comments. You have 90 comments in this ANI thread as a whole. Your behavior—at the very least—will result in admonishment. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 17:36, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

WP:BLUDGEON is a WP:Essay, not a policy or a guideline. And if I have "WP:BLUDGEONed the crap out of this discussion," the same can be stated about others as well, as Mandruss made clear before. Like I stated before, I have not made a point of responding to "almost every single comment," and I have made different points. It is more than acceptable to respond to others' mischaracterizations about the situation, which I have done. I have focused on responding to a select few. And it is important to respond when it's administrators making the mischaracterizations, since they hold significant power and people often state "per [whatever admin]" without truly analyzing the situation. John's sub-thread is a contributor to that. Since I started this report, and a number of editors have been pinging me and/or responding to me, it makes sense that I would have so many comments. Arguing with solid reasons for why an editor should be sanctioned in a forum specifically designed for that, and when so many others agree, is normal and expected even when redundancy follows. And I have backed off more than once allowing others to have their say. I don't think I should stop commenting simply because I have "commented too much," especially when John, who has made so many replies and created his own sub-thread that threw a lot of this out of whack, is still actively commenting and challenging those who oppose his views. All that stated, I will keep your concerns in mind. I am listening to everyone, even though I don't agree with everyone. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:04, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Mandruss, I understand what you mean. After all, Hillbillyholiday did passively-aggressively thank me for this thread via WP:Echo. And you do mean this subthread should be close, correct? Not the whole thread? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:10, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, this subsection. The original complaint is "the matter at hand". ―Mandruss ☎ 17:13, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I must add, though, that I didn't want Hillbillyholiday to keep removing the section from my talk page, or for the involved John to swoop and do it. I do not want Hillbillyholiday thinking he can do whatever he wants regarding my talk page. And, like you, I do think that the main thread (and its proposals) are likely to eventually contribute to action being taken against Hillbillyholiday. If not today, we have later. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:23, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Motion to close

I don't entirely disagree with those who have characterised this discussion as a "trainwreck". We've seen almost every kind of minor disruption, bad faith, arcane arguments and edit wars about closing procedures, accusations of sockpuppetry, the lot. We've collectively demonstrated yet again that AN/I is more a drama board than a place to discuss nuanced topics. And BLP can be a nuanced topic in some places, and is difficult for some editors to understand. The intention of BLP is to ensure that we do not unnecessarily harm the interests of living people. The principle is really simple and really important, and in the real world outside Wikipedia is far more important than our internal policies, which exist to promote collegial behaviour among editors. Nevertheless, I recognise that we cannot operate without observing both BLP and our own behavioural guidelines and policies. We need a solution that allows us to satisfy both.

Hillbillyholiday, I value the work you do here and acknowledge that you have Wikipedia's best interests at heart. I request that you not make nearly so many reverts; even on the BLP exemption, three should be more than enough to pass it onto a more effective solution. See later.

I further request that you use more intelligible edit summaries, (Removing tabloid sourced material per WP:BLPSOURCES, for example) and that you clearly distinguish in your edit summaries between urgent BLP-vio edits and matters of taste and style like removing quotes (which are arguably part of BLP too but much less clear-cut). If you can agree to and follow through with these measures, which at the end of the day is what people are complaining about, no action will follow and you can resume your valuable work. If you are unable to commit to this, or if you commit then break your word, a series of escalating blocks will start, commencing at 24 hours.

Editors are reminded that the community has already adopted the principles of WP:BLPSOURCES, WP:ONUS, and WP:ARBBLP. I would further remind editors that this means that a removal of material under BLP should never be reverted back in, but instead should be discussed in article talk or at WP:BLPN towards a consensus on what to include. Such consensus needs to encompass not just WP:BLPSOURCES but also WP:WEIGHT, as not everything verifiable in sources can or should be included on a biography.

I recommend that going forward, if an editor has a BLP edit reverted, they should notify the reverter of the ArbCom sanctions by placing the notice on their talk page, make one revert, and post a neutrally worded note on article talk. If an editor makes a second revert after notification and before a proper consensus is achieved that the material passes BLP and WEIGHT, any admin may block or topic-ban the offender. This merely restates the status quo ante as far as I am concerned, but using this system will make things considerably simpler and smoother in future.

I am neutral on whether we need an RfC about how "gossipy" material on "celebs" is treated. A couple of respected editors have suggested it above. My feeling is that it could degenerate in the same way that this discussion has. But we could do it as a separate piece of work to the BLP enforcement if there is an appetite for it. I would suggest the RfC take place at WP:BLPN if one is to be held. --John (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

• Edited to strike through a specific model for conflict resolution, as it was too prescriptive for some editors.--John (talk) 18:14, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Survey

• Support as proposer. --John (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support John makes perfect sense to me here. And offers some positive and sensible proposals. I do not condone HBH's multiple reversions, less still his lack of communication. But I still think he had the best interests of encyclopedia at heart. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:39, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - this has become a trainwreck. HBH's main problematic behaviour is edit-warring, as such WP:AN/EW should be well enough equipped to deal with it. Cjhard (talk) 00:34, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose as I see no sense in supporting a "Motion to close" that appears to put forward as a close, the personal views (I recommend...) of an editor who has been involved in the dispute and has issued sanction warnings against editors who disagree with him. This is an obviously non-neutral and obviously silly way to close what has developed -- unnecessarily -- into a major and messy dispute. We need an uninvolved close. MPS1992 (talk) 01:16, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

MPS1992, per WP:INVOLVED, I agree that John should not be the one doing the closing, and I would hope he knows that as well. It's common to request a close and have an uninvolved administrator close the matter, though. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:42, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Weak Support this is definitely a train-wreck, probably best to close it as no consensus but with a WP:ROPE-based warning. Power~enwiki (talk) 01:35, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support this is not an endorsement of John's or HBH's behavior in the above discussion and in relevant talk pages, but I support the proposal as written. BLP integrity is important, but so is civility, discussion, and adequate communication of intent; the proposal satisfies all of these. It's time to draw this matter to a close. AlexEng^(TALK) 08:00, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• No There is a proposal to change policy mixed in with this close suggestion. outside of that, the proposal is fine.Jytdog (talk) 08:13, 27 August 2017 (UTC) (add bit that was edit conflicted out Jytdog (talk) 19:50, 27 August 2017 (UTC))

• Oppose as unclear and in the wrong place. Is this to apply to only newly added content or to any content in a BLP? Who is to judge whether or not something is a BLP violation? The issue above is more a user trying to use BLP policy to delete none violations. Additionally above I am seeing majority support for measures to prevent a reoccurrence of the current problem. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:15, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose motion as entailing far more than a mere motion to close and as written by an involved admin. Furthermore, part of the trainwreck of this entire thread has been the closure of sections (at least one of which has been incorrectly one-click archived so it is no longer viewable here) by involved admins or an inexperienced editor who has been here less than a year and made less than 2,100 edits. I would however hope that both the ANI filer and the reported editor have learned something from this entire discussion and that they are admonished that if this sort of aggressive behavior on either side or both sides recurs it will probably end up at ArbCom. Softlavender (talk) 08:27, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Tell me, Softlavender, what the hell does edit count have to do with anything about closing an off topic discussion? You very well could have inserted yourself into that close like you've disrupted elsewhere. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 15:07, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support-ish. Most of this is already our regular MO; I don't see a change in policy proposed, just a reiteration and some recommendations. I am not a big fan of slapping BLPARB templates all over the place, but I suppose we have them for a reason. Drmies (talk) 12:33, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose as framed (not that the proposer isn't mostly right on principle). It used to be consensus practice that when material was removed under a reasonable, good faith claim of BLP violation, it remained out of the article unless/until a consensus was reached on whether the content should be included, and in what form. That practice reflected the BLP policy language that When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Wikipedia's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first. Following that inexplicably abandoned practice would avoid the gigantic timesink that BLP enforcement has unhappily become. Similarly, the idea that an editor enforcing BLP has an obligation to sort through unacceptable content in the often pointless hope of retrieving some water-washed diamond from a river of sin may be disturbingly popular, but it does not reflect BLP policy. Our enforcement practices should not undermine the BLP policy itself by making enforcement unnecessarily time-consuming and difficult. Finally (and perhaps not directly related to John's proposal, but underlying the issues involved), we need to resoundingly reject the idea that any content which is reliably sourced is presumptively acceptable for a BLP. I could without great difficulty reliably source the color of the dress/clothing Meryl Streep wore at virtually every public appearance in her career, but no one (I pray) would find that content suitable for an encyclopedia. Writing a proper encyclopedia article requires editorial judgment, a factor that is sadly lacking in so many of the bloated, trivia-obsessed celebrity biographies here, and if we have to decide between Hillbillyholiday's view of celebrity and People magazine's, I'm squarely in HH's corner. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 12:37, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, no one is arguing that everything should be retained. I know that I am not. The WP:Preserve policy is not about preserving everything; it's about "preser[ving] appropriate content," adding that "as long as any of the facts or ideas added to an article would belong in the 'finished' article, they should be retained if they meet the three article content retention policies: Neutral point of view (which does not mean no point of view), Verifiability and No original research." Hillbillyholiday should take care in such cases. Removing things because we don't like them is not how Wikipedia is supposed to work. If the color of the dress/clothing that Meryl Streep wore at virtually every public appearance in her career was something that should be retained in a Wikipedia article, we should retain it. But I've stated enough, clearly. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:06, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose: Despite what I stated to MPS1992 above, John apparently does not believe that he is WP:INVOLVED, and seems to not recognize that, even if he wasn't WP:INVOLVED, the fact that he is viewed as WP:INVOLVED by a number of editors is an issue. The moment he decided to participate in this discussion, in a non-administrative capacity, he became involved. He has gone out of his way to save Hillbillyholiday from any sanctioning Hillbillyholiday likely otherwise would have had if not for his (John's) involvement, and that includes admonishing those trying to sanction Hillbillyholiday. WP:INVOLVED to a T. I do not truly have faith that he will do what needs to be done in the case of any further disruption from Hillbillyholiday. Or rather I do not truly have faith that enough will be done by him in the case of any further disruption from Hillbillyholiday. If any admin is to keep a lookout for any further disruption Hillbillyholiday may cause, it should be an uninvolved administrator. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:06, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose: A vote to undo the votes that have yet to be counted? No. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 15:07, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - Pay heed to the words of John and Drmies. It's time to move along...and remember...time wounds all heels...so step lightly. ^{Atsme📞📧} 16:22, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose: The proposer should not be bringing a motion to close. It is inherently a conflict of interest, since his closing proposal favors his own position and biases. User:Hillbillyholiday has behaved abominably, including with a vulgar and insulting string of insults against an admin who blocked him, and this closing proposal lets HBH get away completely with his combative, aggressive and highly uncivil behavior. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:00, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose closing the discussion while people are voting and commenting. QuackGuru (talk) 20:41, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose, mostly per my comments below. While I appreciate the improvement in tone, I see the wording as problematic. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 04:43, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support It's time to get passed this...Modernist (talk) 18:22, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

As we've seen above the damage that logorrhea can cause, I request that editors indicate merely support or oppose in the above section, and place short discussions below this text. Thank you. --John (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Comment I find this an eminently sensible and well put proposal, John. I think, however, it would be far better for the encyclopedia for me to be made an administrator -- then I could just protect these problematic BLPs as I see fit and block all those who add poorly sourced material. Joking aside, consider this a support from me. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 21:19, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Comment: John, one of my issues is giving editors a license to remove non-WP:BLP violating content while claiming a BLP violation. I really do not think we should allow that, especially if the editor has a BLP view that is out of step with the community's BLP view. I believe that what is stated at Wikipedia:Edit warring#Exemptions is what should be followed. Furthermore, if the editor removes valid content under the BLP argument, there may be no one there to save the content, which is a WP:Preserve issue. I care a lot about the WP:Preserve policy too. As for "gossipy" type material, that is handled via WP:Due. As has been stated before, it may be that some dating material should be included in some cases but not in others. If it's a matter of a celebrity's looks or the way they dress, that may also be a matter of WP:Due. Like I noted before, we do have sex symbols and fashion idols. For some celebrities, these are significant aspects of their public image. That's why they are included even in our FAs. All that stated, I do think it is time for this matter to close, and I appreciate you proposing conditions for Hillbillyholiday's behavior here on out. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:58, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Reply That's a perfectly legitimate concern, Flyer22 Reborn and I think I can answer it. If user X removes (allegedly) non BLP-compliant material from an article, and user Y reverts them, user X gives them the mandatory ARBBLP notice (which is purely informational, pointing out that there are sanctions in place), reverts them once and posts to article talk. User Y's next move is to go to article talk or to BLPN and give their reasoning as to why the material (or a compromise version) should be included. A consensus develops that it should. The material goes back in. Or not if it doesn't. This is how we are already supposed to work, not by reverting. My proposal just makes that explicit. I like PRESERVE too, but we shouldn't be preserving salacious details about celebs sourced to tabloid gossip. I think we agree on that. --John (talk) 02:12, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

That doesn't really solve my problem with an editor not understanding what a BLP violation is and articles likely getting valid content removed from them as a result (mainly in the case where no one is there to revert and/or another person didn't carefully check the removed material and see that some content should be retained). But I understand that what is a BLP violation can sometimes be a matter of dispute. And to that I state that editors (especially experienced ones) should have a general idea of what a BLP violation is after reading the policy. And, per what Rivertorch stated above, I don't think that any editor already thoroughly versed in what BLP means, or those already aware of the ARBBLP notice, should be templated with the ARBBLP notice. Imagine experienced editors templating each other with an edit warring notice. Experienced editors already know what edit warring is, but they do it anyway, which is why templating the regulars is considered problematic. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:02, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

That essay specifically points out that ArbCom notifications are exempt from it. --John (talk) 09:15, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I figured you would mention that, but it states "mandatory." How is it mandatory to get a ARBBLP notice? Why would any editor already thoroughly versed in what BLP means, or those already aware of the ARBBLP notice, need to be templated with the ARBBLP notice? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:11, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Comment I'm not an admin, but I want to warn User:Hillbillyholiday that if he keeps edit-warring without commenting on the talk page, even in the case of a blatant BLP violation, he will find himself back at ANI sooner rather than later. Power~enwiki (talk) 02:43, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Comment: I confess to being pleasantly surprised by the tone and overall tenor of the motion. I could even support it—almost. Problem is, the proposer appears to be trying to place an extra restriction, WEIGHT, on BLP articles. As a part of NPOV, WEIGHT applies to all articles, including BLPs, as do the sections and subsections of V and NOR and, to a lesser extent, those of other policies (even IAR, if only rarely). As far as restoring content removed from a BLP article goes, if the removal was per BLP, then one can't suddenly do something akin to shifting the goalposts (Simile, not metaphor!) by saying, "Okay, it meets BLP but I still won't allow it to be restored because I think it's undue weight"; that's a different discussion. Needless to say, anyone who'd like to amend BLP to give additional emphasis to WEIGHT may open an RfC at WT:BLP and suggest exactly that. Failing that, I'm uncomfortable with a proposal saying that alleged violations of one particularly part of one particular policy should lead to blocks or topic bans. Either 3RR or 1RR applies, depending on context, and CCPOL and BLP always apply, regardless of context; let's not complicate it further by singling out certain policies and weighting them unnecessarily. For the record, I'd also like to very gently suggest that, had the proposer weighed in with something like this two days ago, this section would almost certainly have been much shorter and way less unpleasant. I say this not to chide but in the sincere hope that the course of future discussions might be informed by lessons learned from this one. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 05:48, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Comment - it appears we have moved dangerously close to losing our encyclopedic edge, particularly where BLPs are concerned. The lines have all but disappeared for WP:PUBLICFIGURE. The very essence of BLP and its 3 core content policies are at risk. NPOV is being determined by consensus instead of being based on policy, and is more like NPOViVote. Tabloid journalism, pundits, and bait-click sites have created a landscape of sensationalism, gossip, innuendo and downright lies in some instances. BLPs of celebrities and politicians are becoming more like a piñata party, where policies are interpreted by whatever prevailing POV happens to comprise consensus rather than actual policy. Perhaps it explains why we're seeing an increase in tendentious editing and conflicts among our veteran editors. We must not allow the quality and integrity of our encyclopedia to fall victim. ^{Atsme📞📧} 16:47, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Reply - I believe that's a straw-dog argument. No one is arguing for lessening of BLP standards. No one. The issues here are twofold: 1) combativeness and edit-warring, which is detrimental to collaborative culture as a whole; and 2) removing material based on personal taste or opinion from a biographical article and claiming that that material is a BLP vio when it is not. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:06, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• (replying to Atsme) - The "quality and integrity of our encyclopedia" has been a hit-or-miss proposition since the early days. As long as I can remember, BLP articles, not just of public figures but perhaps especially of them, have been subject to a delicate balancing act, with adulation on the one hand and vilification on the other. The middle ground between those extremes has always been determined by consensus, both locally and by the larger, hard-won consensus that forged all of our core content policies. Even the latter kind of consensus isn't fixed and indisputable; NPOV, like V and NOR and also BLP, for that matter, is subject to interpretation in the real world, editorial judgment still required everyday on thousands of articles. In some discrete subject areas, the situation may well be worse now than it was a year or two ago, but overall I'd say we're doing rather well, especially when you consider that the ratio of articles to nominally active editors is something like fifty to one. (If you're talking editors who are actually here most days and patrolling everything on their watchlists, it's probably more like a thousand to one.) If anything has gotten worse recently, it's the continual stream of SPAs and IP drive-bys intent on normalizing the fringe and the indefensible. One of their tactics does involve whitewashing the articles of various public figures, and surprise, surprise—they frequently cite BLP and NPOV when pursuing that tactic. By the way, it's interesting that you wrote "BLP and its 3 core content policies" [my italics]. That makes it sound as if the core content policies are subordinate to BLP, which is a little odd. To bring this back to the specifics of this ANI thread, if I can, I think that the urgency and certitude some editors feel over what they perceive as BLP violations all too often lead to distressing disputes like the one we've seen here. Most of the time, a willingness to pause and discuss matters would avert things like edit wars, ANI reports, threats of blocking, and the like. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 20:09, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

(reply to Rivertorch) - I probably could have eliminated the word "its" and clarified by stating: "BLP and the LISTED 3 core content policies" [my italics]. ^{Atsme📞📧} 22:59, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

comment -- The part that is trying to set policy is I recommend that going forward, if an editor has a BLP edit reverted, they should notify the reverter of the ArbCom sanctions by placing the notice on their talk page, make one revert, and post a neutrally worded note on article talk. If an editor makes a second revert after notification and before a proper consensus is achieved that the material passes BLP and WEIGHT, any admin may block or topic-ban the offender. This merely restates the status quo ante as far as I am concerned, but using this system will make things considerably simpler and smoother in future.. This is stated in a general way that goes way beyond the specifics of this case.

It also unclear exactly what is meant by a "BLP edit". If "BLP edit" means any edit that initially adds content about a living person, then this recommendation is actually counter to BRD - it changes BRD to BRWRD (namely, make a bold edit, get reverted, warn the reverter of BLP DS, restore your edit (!), and then discuss. That is just kooky and cannot be what was intended. But that is what this can be read to say by a person who believes their edit was really OK (the "other side" of the dispute that this whole thread is about).

If that refers to what Hillybillyholiday was doing, and "BLP edit" means removing content that one believes violates BLP, then lets see... we are at BRRWRD -- someone boldly adds content about a living person, a concerned person reverts it, somebody restores it, the concerned person then warns the restorer of BLP DS, then reverts again, and then opens a discussion on talk. This is more in line with what BLP policy actually calls for already. It should also really be BRRDWR where the last three steps are open a discussion on talk and clearly articulate the BLP issue, warn the restorer, and then remove the concerning content again ....but that is quibbling.

I think it might make sense to add a small section to the BLP policy at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Maintenance_of_BLPs laying out a recommended process. But the place to do that, is at WT:BLP Jytdog (talk) 20:04, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I was going to take the rest of the day off without logging back on, because it's Sunday and winter is here. That meant not checking my latest emails either. But I checked them anyway. After doing so, it's become clear to me that we have a lot of editors who are watching this case with concern about Hillybillyholiday's editing...but who are not weighing in. By this, I mean that I got five emails from uninvolved editors stating that Hillybillyholiday is "back at it again." They were referencing the Uma Thurman article, feeling that some of the content should probably be retained. This is one of the celebrity articles that was not on my watchlist until now. I went ahead and took a look at what was removed. This is one type of case I was talking about, when it comes to possibly losing valid content. We really shouldn't be losing any valuable content, and I'm not going to watch all celebrity articles or follow Hillybillyholiday to every article just to see if something needs to be retained/cleaned up after his edits. In this specific case, though, I started a discussion on the article talk page: Talk:Uma Thurman#Recent cuts. So, given John's motion to close above, we may now get a chance to see if Hillybillyholiday is willing to collaborate on such a matter. In addition to Hillybillyholiday, I pinged two editors to the matter, but others are obviously free to weigh in. A permalink for it is here. I can't blame the editors who emailed me...but who are not weighing in here. Who can? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:18, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I can, for one. This is one of the two venues where there is any chance of achieving significant change to an editor's behavior. If people don't speak up they have no right to complain. And the way things currently work, they don't really need to speak up beyond a concise !vote. Closers count !votes and call it a consensus (or a no-consensus). Regardless, while I'm certainly not accusing you of making up these emails, I shouldn't need to point out the problem with accepting such comment-by-proxy. If we accept it from you, we have to accept it from everybody. I shudder. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:43, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I understand, Mandruss, but they are really unsure of if commenting here will help. Look at the discussion so far, and the intimidation in some cases. I don't really think I have commented by proxy, since I also had concerns when looking at the cuts, but I understand how it can be viewed that way. Keep in mind that the top of my talk page currently encourages people to email me about problems they may see on Wikipedia and want me to weigh in on. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:00, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

It was like that before I had the message at the top of my talk page (as sort of indicated by the message). Editors (including newbies) would email me, asking me for my opinion on an article issue and if I would have a look. Sometimes I wouldn't respond; other times I would give advice. And in other cases, I might see an issue that needed reporting. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:13, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

That's different from you bringing their comments to an ANI report. If you expected those comments to mean something here, see my previous comment; if not, that was a waste of space. As I said, they only need !vote and leave, never to return, so I don't see how they could be afraid of being intimidated. Assuming a !vote sounds somewhat intelligent and informed, it counts as much as anybody's—regardless of any response to it. I've yet to see a closer state, suggest, or imply that they discounted some !votes because of the effective counters to them. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:20, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I can't speak to all of why they haven't weighed in, and I was initially frustrated by it, in the similar way that I was frustrated by some of the editors I pinged not weighing in, but I will state that they did not express fear with regard to weighing in (although John going around with his "Query" posts to talk pages was mentioned as a concern by two of the emailers). I would accept a simple !vote, but it seems they were considering commenting more than that, and now have doubts that anything will be done to stop this disruption. And one stays away from ANI at all costs. In any case, I felt that it was important to highlight the Uma Thurman matter. And judging by this, this, and this, others feel the same. And as expected, Hillybillyholiday has not yet gone to the article talk page. I will go ahead and restore the valid content he removed, but editors really should not be needing to clean up after him. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:13, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

If you're going to place so much emphasis on HH's edits to Uma Thurman, you're making a terribly, terribly thin case. Wikipedia goes into far too much detail now about the non-notable children of celebrities, and the general quality of our biographies would be enhanced if we eradicated, root and branch, our coverage of celebrities' child custody disputes. The rare discussions of value are far outweighed by the trivial and the sensational. And there was still more crap that needed to removed from that BLP. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 00:38, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, I think not. The children and stalker material that Hillybillyholiday removed should be retained, and this has been made abundantly clear on the talk page. You can start an RfC on the matter if you want, but I doubt that most editors will agree with you. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:00, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, your judgment on this point is quite dreadful. And your arguments make no sense. Do you really believe that any reasonable person comes to Wikipedia, or any encyclopedia, to find out how many stalkers a (typically female) celebrity has and when they're getting out of jail? And it's clear that, until HH came along, editors like you didn't even bother checking to see how much of the tabloidery was actually supported by the references. A hell of a lot of it wasn't. HH's version of the article was a lot better than the text before they arrived. You cannot reasonably deny that. Their edits had a net positive effect. And that ought to be the bottom line. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 11:20, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, and your judgment on this matter is quite extreme. We shouldn't include the fact that a couple who were once married have children, really? We shouldn't include the fact that another couple who were married were engaged in a custody battle and that the subject of the article won custody? That is an extreme view. As for readers coming to Wikipedia to find what stalkers have stalked a celebrity, it is not about that! Any reasonable person knows that. It's about the fact that this stalker case significantly impacted Thurman's life to the point that she testified at a trial and won; the man was convicted. And it was widely publicized. Of course that should be included in her Wikipedia article. Although there are some differences, it is similar to the Taylor Swift sexual assault matter in that it was a famous woman seeking legal action against a man, and it was widely publicized. And we include that bit in the Taylor Swift article. You stated, "And it's clear that, until HH came along, editors like you didn't even bother checking to see how much of the tabloidery was actually supported by the references." What you consider tabloidery often does not align with what others consider tabloidery. I removed this bit, but that Rolling Stone-sourced material is not tabloidery. And, yeah, you came along and chopped material without seeing if any of the material is WP:DUE. You obviously do not like this bit, but did you stop to think that one of the "10 Most Controversial Playboy Covers" might deserve a mention? No, you simply cut it because..."Oh my god. Some adolescent boy obviously added this." This content was oddly significantly sourced to eBay and Amazon, but it wasn't tabloidery. I don't know what it is with you, Hillybillyholiday and some others when it comes to celebrities being known for their love life, looks, fashion, legal history, etc., but why do you think they are celebrities? Not all celebrities are known, or primarily known, for their acting. In fact, many of the actors, like Halle Berry, are more known for their appearance. You don't have to like it, but it is a fact. And Wikipedia readers obviously come to Wikipedia to learn about these celebrities, regardless of what they are more well known for. As for me not assessing the article closer, I'm sure many can forgive me for focusing on saving pertinent content and on one portion of the article at a time, instead of taking a chainsaw to everything in sight. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:47, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Consider the long-term view of these bio articles. Let's assume it's 50 years later, and the celebrity has passed away from natural cause, after living a star-studded lifestyle. Would some of these details matter then? Absolutely not. Much of the stuff HBH is removing isn't strictly BLP-violating material, but it is material that would not be in any quality bio summarizing a full life. The removed material is tabloid-like material, even if it is coming from RSes, that is capturing on their celebrity status in the now, but will have little relevance in the future. We should be avoiding these details in our articles. --MASEM (t) 15:05, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Per WP:PRESERVE and WP:RECENTISM, I am thinking from a long-term point of view as well. Children? Yeah, that will still be relevant to the Uma Thurman article. Her appearance? Yep. Her impact on fashion? Yep. The stalker matter? I'm sure that any good biography will mention it. Some of what Hillybillyholiday removed from the Uma Thurman article was not tabloid-like material in any sense of the word; it was pertinent material. And that is what I and others objected to. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:22, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I do sympathize with you that some of the material removed from Thurman's article probably can be kept, but HBH does have a point that some of the sources are very poor to be used as RSes for a bio, and removal until better sources are found is all within reason. I will point out what I said above: In any of these articles, HBH is fully in the right to remove material they see as BLP-violating in a BOLD manner, that's what BLP calls for, but very little is a hard exemption allowed by WP:3RRBLP, which is more where the issue around HBH seems to be. --MASEM (t) 15:29, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Masem makes some good points. The signal-to-noise ratio has been memorably low on this discussion but if we've clarified with editors that the ARBBLP sanction applies to all BLP edits, and not the higher standard Masem mentions with regard to 3RR, then maybe it's been worth it. --John (talk) 15:39, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

John, we are not going to agree. I, as well as many others, view Hillybillyholiday's editing as mostly disruptive, not helpful, and I know that my opinion on that will not be changing. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:51, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Masem, unless the sources are tabloid sources (which I don't see any editor condoning the use of), what are good sources for celebrity articles can be debatable. The aforementioned People magazine case shows that, but it also show that most editors considered it a reliable source for BLPs. It is one of the few sources we have for celebrity content. It is akin to ESPN for sports material. People, Entertainment Weekly, Rolling Stone, some newspapers (or their websites), etc. are the types of sources we have to work with for celebrity information. And these are not poor sources. Anyone expecting academic sources for these articles are expecting far too much. Go ahead and look on Google Books for sources for Uma Thurman. Like I stated before, the most you will find in cases like these are unauthorized biographies, tell-all books, or some other poor source. Every now and then, you will find that rare gem of a book source. I obviously disagree with you that "HBH is fully in the right to remove material they see as BLP-violating in a BOLD manner, that's what BLP calls for." No, BLP calls for someone who knows what a BLP violation is before removing the material and claiming that it's a BLP violation, and to follow Wikipedia:Edit warring#Exemptions correctly. We do not need reckless "BLP violation" editing, and I'm glad that many agree. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:48, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

No, BLP calls for someone who knows what a BLP violation is before removing the material and claiming that it's a BLP violation, and to follow Wikipedia:Edit warring#Exemptions correctly. Absolutely not true on the first part, there is no such thing as "someone who knows what a BLP violation is" to remove BLP violations. If someone sees something they think is a BLP Violation, and in good faith haven't been involved with said article before and has not seen any prior consensus to retain the information, they have every right to remove it per WP:BLP and that we are an open wiki. Continuing to edit past that point when the edit is reverted becomes a behavioral issue, and if someone who has removed what they claimed to be BLP violations that others have clearly identified as not several times before, and keeps that same behavior, we can take action. But the things HBH are removing aren't clear cut if they are or are not BLP violations (there's certainly disagreement in this discussion), so we can't say HBH doesn't know what a BLP vio is. Their actions in not engaging are a troubling, but that's different from what you are saying. --MASEM (t) 16:08, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Editors should understand our rules before enforcing them. Otherwise, it becomes a WP:Disruptive editing and/or a WP:Competence issue, as it has in this case. Hillybillyholiday has time and again shown that he often does not understand what a BLP violation is. That he gets some things right does not excuse the many things he gets wrong. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

There's no consensus from this discussion alone that HBH's claims of BLP are necessarily wrong or right. If there was a clear consensus among editors in this discussion that HBH's removals were inappropriate per BLP, then you'd have a case. But as they are borderline, we can't say that HBH's behavior when first removal material is disruptive. HBH's behavior after that is of question and I agree somewhat disruptive if they aren't engaging in discussions on the removed material. --MASEM (t) 16:31, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Clearly, we are looking at this ANI report differently because I see consensus that some of Hillybillyholiday's removals were inappropriate with regard to BLP, and not simply because he was edit warring. If all or most of his actions were fine and dandy per BLP, I probably would not have started this thread. There is the WP:PRESERVE matter, but not nearly enough editors care about that policy. So and I others would have had to clean up after Hillybillyholiday in the case of simply preserving some removed content by replacing it with better sources. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:39, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

This issue alone now takes up more than half of the entire notice board. That is a problem. --Tarage (talk) 05:41, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I was thinking the same. Some people think that a long thread simply equals "train wreck." To me, it signals "there is a serious issue here." Otherwise, people would not be paying so much attention to the case. And I've seen this countless time in my years at Wikipedia. So it's not really a lesson learned for me. I actually think it aids the argument of mass disruption. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:13, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I certainly agree with you there, Flyer22 Reborn. --John (talk) 18:12, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

With all due respect, there are all kinds of train wrecks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:20, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

It's been a long and difficult discussion, but it's an important issue and if it has achieved some learning by some people who needed to learn, it'll all have been worth it. --John (talk) 15:39, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Motion to close without further comment

The user has been sanctioned. This is a motion to close the entirety of this report without further comment or action. AlexEng^(TALK) 21:13, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I second the motion. Let's move along. ^{Atsme📞📧} 00:44, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Third. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 00:47, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support This has been crying out for a "nothing good will ever come of this" close for ages. Fyddlestix (talk) 01:08, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - Finished a while ago. Carrite (talk) 01:55, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - Any new issues will belong better in a new thread, presented in a more concise way. Alex Shih^Talk 02:53, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support: Before this thread was started, I pretty much asked the admin who issued the sanction to close it, but that admin declined. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:02, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - Discussion has dwindled. It's unlikely that any good will come of leaving parts open at this point. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 05:40, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support. The only proposal or motion which has received sufficient support has been enacted; there is really no reason to keep the thread going at present. Softlavender (talk) 07:36, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support with the proviso that there are a couple of editors other than the one sanctioned who should count themselves very lucky this time round. They should be aware that further nonsense will not be tolerated by the community. Reverting BLP edits = block. Be warned. --John (talk) 15:42, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
  • You know, maybe it would be politic not to say anything in response, but I think this comment epitomizes the toxic atmosphere that pervades ANI way too much of the time. You've gone from making implicit threats toward specific editors to making explicit threats toward unnamed editors. From my perspective, that's counterproductive and potentially incendiary. Considering that closure of the thread was clearly imminent and tensions had died down, it seems especially unconstructive to fire a parting shot like that one. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 16:09, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
    • You call it a threat, but it's only threatening if you plan to break BLP or the clarification in ARBBLP. If you're not, you should be fine. Rather call it a warning. --John (talk) 16:16, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

John, and as this discussion and others in the past show, not everyone agrees with your view of what a BLP violation is. We have experienced and well-respected editors (including admins) who disagree with some of your BLP views. You are not the only editor who understands BLP and you are not the lone BLP enforcer. If an editor gets blocked for a BLP violation when the material is non-BLP violating, that administrator should count himself lucky if he is not sanctioned himself. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:27, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, it's your edit privilege and your risk to take. If you decide to edit according to an imperfect understanding of how BLP is enforced around here and end up getting blocked in spite of this specific warning, you may have cause to regret it. --John (talk) 16:35, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't have an issue following BLP. As for risk, go ahead and risk WP:INVOLVED; we both know that you do not understand that policy. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:42, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It sure seems like a legal threat to me ...

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

... or what do y'all here say about this post on User talk:Embassy Global LLC. The user has been blocked for spamming and violating the username rules, and didn't like me checking what they do for a living. They're free to remove my post, but they're not free to make legal threats, even if blocked (a username block is a temporary block, which only requires requesting a change of username to be lifted, while an NLT-block won't be lifted until they retract the threat, in case one or more of the less experienced editors who seem to spend much of their time here decide to descend on this thread...). - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 21:47, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Clear legal threat. Block indefinitely for legal threats and as it seems like they are WP:NOTHERE. Amaury (talk | contribs) 21:50, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Hang on... Saying they'll provide a legal affidavit (I assume attesting to their lack of being compensated), while a misguided move, is completely different than threatening legal action. They aren't saying they want to take action against you, Thomas, they're saying they're willing to, essentially, "make an official oath" than they aren't being compensated. The NLT block should be reversed, User:Amaury. No comment on spamming issues, name change issues, and possible NOTHERE issues. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:56, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh, wait... I don't think Amaury actually changed the block, so no need to "change" anything. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:01, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam: LOL! I'm not an admin. (Although I've kind of wanted to be one.) Amaury (talk | contribs) 22:02, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

D'oh. It's hard being an idiot. I see now that you were recommending an action, not saying you'd done it. Sorry for the mistaken ping. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:03, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) :They're saying they'll provide a written sworn statement of fact to attest that they are not being paid. That's not a legal threat. At the same time, they are asking Thomas to leave them alone, that's not a legal threat either. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:59, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• I'm not a lawyer, instead being about as far from that as you can get ^* (which is why I asked what others think about it), and mostly concentrated on the "cease and decist ... cyberbullying" thing... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 22:03, 30 August 2017 (UTC) (* ... which means I only made half as much a year as a lawyer would, in spite of spending as many years at uni as a lawyer would...)
• Took a look, and this editor's problem is being waaaaay too uptight (complaining about cyberbullying right off the bat) and possibly having a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. But not a legal threatener. Yet. Uptight people who like to speak legalese tend to make legal threats sooner or later, in my experience. My advice is: make them swear off paid editing, then unblock and give them a chance. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:09, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
• They should be blocked for being a shared account alone. --Tarage (talk) 22:14, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
• I'd actually like to see how an affidavit would explain the footer on the pages whose links they inserted: "©2017 Reed Switch Developments Corp. Site Design and SEO by Embassy Global, LLC". Did they do it for free? --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 22:33, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• There's no doubt about it being paid editing, which is why I posted this on their talk page... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 22:39, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

And then they removed the entire section. Recommend locking down the talk page and blacklisting the links. Nothing of value lost. --Tarage (talk) 22:42, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• I agree that this doesn't remotely fall under WP:NLT, but that being said, the editor in question seems like one of the many people for whom a "legal affidavit" is some magic wand that clears all obstructions in their path. All a "legal affidavit" involves (in the United States, anyway) is a statement given ostensibly under oath, with a notary public whacking it with a seal. Notaries are all over the place, and one can get a statement notarized in a bank, among other places, which always has at least one around. To quote John Parker, "So whaaaat. Big deallll." Ravenswing 22:50, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
  • @Ravenswing: Anyone who quotes Buckaroo Banzai is AOK in my book. That was (*gasps in horror*) 33 years ago?! --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:00, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Tis true: The only difference between a legal affidavit and a note scrawled on a piece of toilet paper is that some random person is willing to take $20-$50 to promise that you really did write (or sign) the former. I know a notary public who has actually notarized a document written on a napkin, too so I was being literal when I said this was the only difference. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:01, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• Um... nobody notified the editor. I'll go do that now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:00, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ongoing BLP-violations, block needed

I posted the following report at WP:AIV about 40 minutes ago, but nothing has happened, so could we have a block please:

• 188.250.163.81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) – On Sigrid Agren:. Vandalism after final warning + ongoing BLP-violations, changing name, nationality, year of birth etc etc, by an IP-hopper in Portugal, an IP-hopper who has been doing this regularly for several years, this time using an IP that was blocked three times last year (last time for a month) for making the very same BLP-violations on the very same article... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 15:06, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

The edits, which have been made regularly for several years now by IPs that all geolocate to Portugal, change name, year of birth, father's nationality, most other details in the biography etc etc etc, in effect turning the article, a BLP, into an article about a totally different, and apparently totally fictitious, person... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 15:57, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Blocked them for 3 months for continued BLP violations. Last block was in 2016, however it's the same behavior that led to the blocks before. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:02, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

@RickinBaltimore: 2001:8A0:E7CE:D901:* (an IPv6 /64-net, i.e. a single user) is the same person, see contributions, and has been making the same edits on Sigrid Agren since April of last year, last editing the article on 3rd August this year... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 16:10, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

It also geolocates to the same town in Portugal as the IPv4, belongs to the same ISP and is a static broadband connection just like the IPv4, making it highly probable that they're the same connection... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 16:17, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I put indefinite pending changes on the page and blocked that /64 for three months. Katie^talk 16:38, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks so much Katie. I'm not as well versed in range blocks, so I didn't want to end up blocking all of Portugal by mistake :) RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:40, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks all. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk¨

Page moves creating unnecessary redirects

A user has been moving game designer articles to new article names today with "(game designer)" appended to the end, where no disambiguation is necessary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Traveller-Onlooker

Surely this should be stopped and reversed before it gets out of hand? Newimpartial (talk) 21:07, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I suspect this is a misunderstanding on the user's part. I can't see any reason why any of these pages needed to be disambiguated. BOZ (talk) 22:06, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Linked to the guideline on their talk page. Miniapolis 22:53, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Attack page?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Would User:Morty C-137/SPI-Case be considered an attack page? I was under the impression that accusations of sockpuppetry should be confined to WP:SPI.

Recent reports regarding Morty C-137:

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive956#Morty C-137: Battleground attitude, personal attacks and edit warring.

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive343#User:Morty C-137 and User:Rjensen reported by User:Cjhard (Result: Warned)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive342#User:Pepe.is.great and User:Morty C-137 reported by User:KDS4444 (Result: Warned)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive953#Morty C-137

--Guy Macon (talk) 18:31, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

This discussion has already been had by administators and answered, and I consider Guy Macon's filing here to be in obvious bad faith. Morty C-137 (talk) 18:36, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

@Morty C-137: Where did this admin discussion occur? --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:45, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I have been attacked over and over [27] and I have every right to keep records given that we are "required to give evidence". Morty C-137 (talk) 18:50, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

That's not what I asked. Where has an admin told you this page is OK? This page has been up for over a month with no SPI case filed. We can't keep pages like this around, per WP:POLEMIC. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:52, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I just linked a diff for you above. Take it up with them. Morty C-137 (talk) 18:54, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Since Morty's decide to revert the blanking, I've deleted the page per WP:POLEMIC. These type of pages cannot be left around for long periods of time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:55, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, that proves this whole listing is in bad faith, since you gave me no actual chance to save the material offline and you're ignoring policy. Morty C-137 (talk) 18:59, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I've undeleted for 10 minutes so you can copy everything. Then it's getting deleted again. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:01, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Well I'm lucky I saw that at the 9th minute, such a "generous" amount of time. What a load of harassing crap. Morty C-137 (talk) 19:06, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

May I interject here? Morty C-137 none of those users nor an admin EVER said that you could do that. Dinah In Wonderland 19:18, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Seconding this. It's possible Morty linked to the wrong diff, of course. If you're collecting evidence in this manner, it's best to do it off wiki. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 19:48, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Two things here. A quick look through Cjhard's (very short) edit summary:

1. It screams "sock puppet" of the sleeper kind. The account has only approx. 815 edits but extensive knowledge not only of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines but it's internal politics, feuds, obscure cases and ANI reports (examples [28]. It made 16 edits in 2007, 8 edits in 2008, 4 edits in 2009, 4 in 2011, 3 in 2012 and then... it "woke up" and exploded with several hundred edits starting in May of this year. And a lot of these involve following and reverting Morty around - there's no freakin' way this is a legit account.
2. It's immediately obvious that the account HAS in fact been following and harassing Morty.

It's hard to tell who the sock master here is but at least this account looks like one of the socks of the same person.

I can easily see why Morty is frustrated here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:54, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

If you want to accuse me of being a sockpuppet, do it at SPI. Doing it here, incorrectly, without evidence, and without having the courtesy of pinging me in a conversation I hadn't already been made aware of, is an unacceptable personal attack. Honestly, I'm getting tired of it from Morty, and my tolerance for it is waning. Cjhard (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Better yet, provide your input to the SPI case Morty finally opened: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Cjhard. Cjhard (talk) 21:39, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

If User:Morty C-137 doesn't understand why his behavior (both in maintaining a page full of un-substantiated attacks on wiki, and his recent contributions at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard) is problematic, administrative action against him should be considered. Power~enwiki (talk) 20:15, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

AFAICT there's no "problematic" behavior at RN/B, which, incidentally, is not a discussion you yourself participated in. As far as I can tell.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I've commented on it now, though I'm not sure what your remark regarding my lack of participation is supposed to imply. I hope that, after the fourth invocation of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, he will let the discussion die on its own; it hasn't been about "Reliable Sources" for quite some time. That said, it's not actionable; as the SPI case is filed and the attack page is blanked, hopefully an admin can close this soon. Power~enwiki (talk) 00:50, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• (copy of recent post to WP:REFUND): This page is covered both by WP:POLEMIC (a policy), and WP:CSD#G10 (a speedy deletion criterion that references WP:ATP, a slightly different but essentially similar policy page). I referenced the first policy in the deletion log, kind of assuming the link to G10 was clear, but if that's too lazy and if it helps in dotting the i's and crossing the t's, consider it deleted per WP:CSD#G10. We generally haven't considered short-term compilation of evidence an attack page, but they aren't allowed to linger in user space for a long time; in this case over a month, plus a week since its undeletion. From WP:ATP: "keeping a "list of enemies" or "list of everything bad user:XXX did" on your user space is neither constructive nor appropriate". If it's going to take a long time to compile evidence, that should be done offline. Morty now has this material offline if he chooses to use it. If an admin thinks WP:POLEMIC/WP:CSD#G10/WP:ATP doesn't apply here, they can certainly undelete (I'll say as much at ANI in a moment). Or ditto if Morty wants to take it to WP:DELREV instead. But it pretty clearly qualifies to me. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:46, 10 August 2017 (UTC) (end of copy)

I'm not preventing Morty from continuing to compile evidence, I'm not preventing him from filing an SPI, I'm not claiming Sjhard is or isn't a sock, and I'm not Morty's enemies' newest buddy. But my experience has been that we enforce WP:POLEMIC/WP:CSD#G10/WP:ATP like this all the time. I even tried to blank it instead of delete it, and was immediately reverted. Again, if any admin thinks undeletion is warranted and WP:POLEMIC/WP:CSD#G10/WP:ATP doesn't apply, please feel free to undelete. Now I've been told I'm a stuck up jerk, that I'm someone's pet admin, and that I am intentionally harassing Morty, and I still temporarily undeleted the page for Monty to copy the contents, and I've explained myself sufficiently to satisfy WP:ADMINACCT. I've had more than enough, so I'm disengaging now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:59, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree. Whether the page in question should be deleted or not is subject to the usual administrative rules and guidelines (though I've seen other people do similar, just in a but less transparent way and get away with it). My point rather is that Morty's action were understandable and importantly, that this ANI report is completely pointless.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:08, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Floquenbeam, I apologize for the jerk comment. That being said, I am frustrated because (a) the last person to blank that page was a freaking sockpuppet of a stalker and (b) you didn't explain ANYTHING of your blanking, followed by just up and deleting it when I reverted and tried to add the newest sockpuppet to the list. How the hell was I supposed to know what you were up to when you were too lazy to give an explanation? Morty C-137 (talk) 21:10, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Could be a sock puppet. Nothing has been proven yet. --Tarage (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I learned today that this user filed a false allegation of sockpuppetry against me. It's certainly "Not Here" behavior. It needs to be stopped either on its own or by a hasty door showing. The attack page is a symptom of the problem. --DHeyward (talk) 04:33, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

There's no shortage of symptoms; the repeated assumption/leap to accuse other users above (including intervening admins) of "harassment" demonstrates A) a pretty profound lack of understanding of basic process (which can always be remedied with experience) and B) a more fundamental sense of persecution and refusal to WP:AGF (which is more problematic). We already see enough users show up here on a revolving door basis who are convinced that any time their wishes are thwarted or their behaviour questioned, it is a form of harassment. Best to disabuse this notion early, before it progresses to the conspiracy theory stage and truly disruptive discussions that usually follow. Snow ^{let's rap} 11:18, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Dheyward ran right in after someone was blocked. The Clerk on the case admitted "I can see why it looks suspicious." But hey, go ahead and roundly misrepresent everything. Morty C-137 (talk) 12:31, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

There are two sets of sockpuppets attacking Morty. The earliest one is at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/D.H.110/Archive A second set is at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/D.Pearson/Archive. I'll quote Bbb23, who is sadly now inactive here: " I can see the confusion because of the usernames, all the pepes and earsons, but they are separate masters editing from different continents and using different other technical data. I don't know why this person is mimicking the other.-" That is my finding also. Two different continents but the later one is mimicking the earlier. I have my own thoughts on this but need to ponder on the evidence a bit longer. Doug Weller talk 13:27, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Holy mother of WP:IDHT; you really need to stop assuming (and vocally asserting) that everyone who questions you is out to get you, and listen to what the experienced admins and users here are trying to tell you. A few things relating to your last couple of posts:

A) I wasn't commenting on Dheyward's assertions, but rather pointing to your behaviour above of attacking every administrator who takes action to keep you from trampling on policy. I don't see how I am "roundly misrepresenting" anything by pointing out that this is an incredibly self-defeating strategy.

B) You have so selectively quoted mz7's comments in the SPI that you opened against DHeyward (and mischaracterized their role in the SPI) so as to have essentially reversed the conclusion they came to. Here's the full quote, with the context you omitted: "I am not an SPI clerk, but for what it's worth, I agree that the reverts alone are insufficient evidence. I can see why it looks suspicious, but DHeyward is a longstanding editor (created in 2005), and the Doorzki account is not exactly new either (created in 2012). If these were single-purpose accounts with no other edits besides these reverts, we would probably call it a WP:DUCK. However, that's not the case here: both editors have coexisted for a while now without drawing suspicion of sockpuppetry. Given this, I would need to see more evidence of interaction between these accounts or other idiosyncratic behavior (e.g. similar writing style/editing philosophies) before blocking or even recommending CheckUser in this case."

C) Your latest SPI is an absolute nightmare of disorganized non-cogent accusations and non-contexualized links. Moreover, you clearly knew what you were adding to that page, because this was your edit summary for your second edit: "Fuck it. I was trying to get my head wrapped round it and was going to start paring things down and reformatting, but since I got harassed today and told "use it or lose it", it's up. Have fun, whoever.". Uhh, no. That's not how this works. If you want the community to take your accusations seriously, the responsibility is on you to make the argument in a structured and intelligible fashion. It is not the community's responsibility to go digging through that mess of gibberish to make heads or tales of which of the dozens of editors you accuse might actually be a sock, just because you still wanted to open another SPI but you were also angry and wanted to make a statement about your attack page being closed.

You need to take a pause for the cause here, because at ANI we look at the behaviour of all involved parties, even once we've established that one of them is problematic. It will do you no good at all to identify a sock who may or may not be harassing you if, in the course of trying to make your case, you demonstrate a profound inability to contribute to the project yourself without accusing every good-faith contributor and admin you come across of being in on the harassment, and just generally demonstrating a highly WP:disruptive attitude. Snow ^{let's rap} 13:56, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Related: Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion#User:Morty_C-137/SPI-Case (2nd request). --Guy Macon (talk) 17:57, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Really, this user has been here for 4 months[29] and he has an enemies and sock accusation list. Not since Psycho in the movie Stripes has someone created a death list so quickly. It's hardly the type of activity new users find themselves embroiled in and arguing about. It's about time to call this one as an obviously returning editor. --DHeyward (talk) 23:10, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Considering his SPI against Cjhard is failing(unsurprisingly), I think we need to start limiting the amount of accusations Morty is allowed to toss around. Yes, it is unfortunate that he has been the target of two sock puppet editors, but that is no excuse for slinging accusations at everyone and hoping some stick. --Tarage (talk) 00:12, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually, the SPI is as much as done; the CU found no relationship between Cjhard and any of the other editors. I'm actually pretty shocked jpgordon decided to run a CU in that situation at all, but perhaps they recognized it may prove necessary to refer back to that SPI as fruitless. In light of the polemic/attack page, the recurrent fruitless SPIs, the constant assumption of bad faith and unsubstantiated claims of harassment (particularly the accusations against Guy Macon and Floquenbeam above), and just the generally WP:battleground and WP:disruptive attitude this user is bringing into every space they enter into, I'm fully prepared to support restrictions of some sort--a topic ban from SPI in particular. Frankly, at this point, it's beginning to feel less like IDHT and more like "I will never hear that", but the smallest targeted restrictions should be considered first. I definitely think something needs to be done though; this is a whole lot of drama for the community to have to contend with to indulge for a user who has been around for four months and spends half of their time grinding axes; harassment from socks gets one a certain amount of sympathy, but this user is primed to see foes no matter the circumstances. Morty either needs to learn what is an acceptable claim of harassment or, as has been suggested above, he will have to be shown the door. Snow ^{let's rap} 01:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

English Wikipedia has a history of sanctioning editors when they respond poorly to harassment. Some of this is unavoidable, but I still think we need to come up with a better approach. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I fail to see how responding poorly to harassment by another editor gives Morty C-137 a free pass to abuse multiple editors who had no part in any harassment.[30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40] Morty C-137, given the wide variety of editors who you have accused of harassing you and acting in bad faith, could it be possible that the problem is you?

There once was a drunk driver who was driving the wrong way on the freeway. Upon hearing on the radio (over the honking horns) that there was a drunk driver who was driving the wrong way on the freeway, he peered through his windshield, noticed all of the headlights heading toward him, and exclaimed "My God! There are DOZENS of them!!" --Guy Macon (talk) 09:19, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Guy Macon presents a heck of a Gish Gallop, but none of those diffs show what he is saying, with the exception of one edit that I've already apologized for. Morty C-137 (talk) 15:58, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Respectfully NRP, multiple admins have attempted to approach this user with kids gloves only to be told to stop "harassing" him. I wasn't suggesting a block, but rather trying to isolate them from areas they don't seem yet competent to handle--areas in which they are currently sinking a lot of time into, and which are the nexus of all of the issues they are having with just about everyone they seem to be interacting with on the project now.

The smallest and most targeted sanction I could think of is a topic ban from SPI complaints, appeal-able in a few months once they have enough experience to know what really looks like suspicious activity, under this community's standards--not just the criteria of anyone who disagrees with them ever, on any article. Though, if I'm frank, it's the refusal to AGF / general hostility to anyone thwarting their will that is the real problem. If you think you can reach them, short of that sort of thing becoming a necessity, by all means have at it. But I'll direct you to the above, and this user's talk page, where numerous notably patient admins and veteran community members have tried. Snow ^{let's rap} 09:35, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. Whilst dealing with true harassment is something we need to do much better, dealing with tactical (or misguided) cries of harassment based on a simple disagreement or failure to gain consensus is something we do poorly too. CRYHARASS can be similar to CRYBLP: a diversion from the underlying issue by appeal to the authority of an inapplicable generality which deliberately invokes strong reactions. Both of these are gaming tactics, and, historically, we've not dealt particularly well with that, either. NRP makes a good point, but, as you say, the issues are wide and nuanced. -- Begoon 10:00, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I think what’s clear is that since his block Morty C-137’s conduct hasn’t improved since his first block. His behaviour on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard is a great example of his personal attacks, tendentiousness and battlefield behaviour continuing unabated. His presence is almost inevitably disruptive in any political topic he engages with and his temperament appears to be inherently compatible with a collaborative project like Wikipedia. A series of increasingly long bans ending in retirement or an indefinite ban appears inevitable. However, Morty’s work on articles related to Rick and Morty suggests that he is able to contribute to the project positively in areas which require less collaboration and are less politically charged. The optimist in me would suggest that a topic ban on all political topics along with a sanction against making any personal attacks (specifically accusations of wrongdoing without evidence and/or outside the proper channels) might prevent his negative behaviour while retaining him as an editor. Cjhard (talk) 09:45, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I suggest a short block for incivility and not assuming good faith, followed by longer and longer blocks until he either gets the point or is blocked indefinitely. His behavior has completely disrupted what would have otherwise been a calm, rational discussion on RSNB about whether a particular source, previously reliable, has become unreliable. This is interfering with the operation of the encyclopedia. I am agnostic on the politics topic ban, not having examined his behavior in that area. --Guy Macon (talk)09:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd argue his behaviour on RSNB is an example of his behaviour in the politics topic, given the nature of the sources discussed and what they're being used for. Cjhard (talk) 10:03, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd argue that, as a party, jumping on some sort of perceived bandwagon might not be the best thing for you to do here. Despite the very poor SPI, people may still have questions. Your last couple of posts have not helped to convince me that you don't deserve deep scrutiny, yourself. -- Begoon 12:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

What does that have to do with Morty's disruptive behavior and personal attacks? A Morty-free encyclopedia has a lot less drama overhead. Threatening his victims doesn't solve the problem. --DHeyward (talk) 14:54, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

DARVO. Those who have been through abusive situations recognize this sort of behavior when someone tries it on them. I've done nothing to warrant the torrent of abuse you've heaped on me, I legitimately saw something weird in a pattern of edits and reported it. You've been page hopping for the past couple days insulting me and trying to get me "banned" while calling me things like "ban-boy" and it needs to stop. Morty C-137 (talk) 15:53, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

No Morty. I've followed you to admin pages where you are abusing other editors including me. It needs to stop. Your behavior is deplorable and your accusations lack merit. I've not sought you out or even knew you existed until someone pointed out your merit-less SPI accusation in an apparent attempt to get me sanctioned and I learned that I was one of many. I have done nothing but point at your poor behavior. It's incompatible with Wikipedia. I have not started any ANI/SPI/3RR or any other process against you but that seems to be your sole contributions as there are at least 4 open ones about you. Your familiarity with these avenues, your long list of "bad users" and attitude suggest this isn't your first rodeo. I personally find that those that see sockpuppets at every turn are often the worse sock puppeteers and is why they think a torrent of socks are out to get them. --DHeyward (talk) 16:36, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

It would appear that DHeyward has now begun stalking my edits and reverting me wherever he can find me, in an attempt to get me angry. [41][42] [43] Morty C-137 (talk) 18:15, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

"Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?"[44] --Monty Python and the Holy Grail

According to WP:WIKIHOUNDING, "Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. In fact, such practices are recommended both for Recent changes patrol and WikiProject Spam." DHeyward appears to be simply correcting related problems on multiple articles that you have edited. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:11, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

"Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia."

Repeat: to repeatedly confront... with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress. Dheyward has never edited those pages before - they were following me in hopes of creating irritation, annoyance or distress. Morty C-137 (talk) 20:40, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

If these edits you cited [45] [46] annoyed you, you are in the wrong place. You called them reverts when in fact your exact text and citation were retained. You didn't bother to check that the source and content were duplicated. --DHeyward (talk) 20:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Morty C-137, it appears that pretty much everything causes you "irritation, annoyance or distress", including the most innocuous of edits. Right now it looks like you are heading toward an indefinite block, and your continued claims of harassment and bad faith are making that block more likely. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:05, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Disruptive commentary by LynnWysong, lashing out at an editor she has a beef with, but irrelevant to this discussion, even if she unhats this, again. LynnWysong: You're rapidly putting yourself into a place where other editors are going to start considering you a net negative to the project if you keep inserting yourself into discussions you know nothing about, merely to slag off one of the editors you've taken a dislike to. My advice is to knock it off. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:04, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I would like to know if anyone's opinion here is influenced by this. Seems like whether or not keeping a page like this, the real issue here, is okay, depends on who you are. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 22:34, 12 August 2017 (UTC) I don't know Morty C-137, but what I see here is that he/she was brought here because they were keeping a page to prepare for an SPI. In the edit summary they provided, they were told that they shouldn't keep it more than six months without taking action. That forced him to file an SPI before it was ready. Now, he's being accused by the object of the SPI of having brought the accusation here instead of at SPI in the first place. Uh, no, he didn't. And now, he's being told that since he made that accusation, his own behavior is under review. In the meantime, a couple of years ago, an established editor was keeping a similar page. When it was pegged for deletion, the community rallied to her side. This is hypocrisy at it most pathological. If what Guy Macon (talk · contribs) was really upset about was the editor's behavior at other articles, that's what this ANI should have been about. Right now it looks like a bait and switch. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 01:52, 13 August 2017 (UTC) (edit conflict) This is just wrong on so many levels...first, Montanabw's page had only been there for two months, it was supplementing an active SPA of a LTA, and it was moved away to WP space once people noticed it and MfD'd it. Second, Morty didn't have to file the SPI at that time, he could have easily kept this stuff off-wiki as suggested by the deleting admin and others until he was ready (not that it would have affected the outcome; baseless accusations are just that no matter how polished). Third, Cjhard was telling Volunteer Marek to take the accusations to the SPI, not Morty. And fourth, there's no "whistleblower protection" here, per WP:BOOMERANG; everyone's behavior is scrutinized. ansh666 02:14, 13 August 2017 (UTC) But, didn't it say that Morty's page had only been there for one month? Yes, he could have, and, upon having not had his hand called, he may have not filed it all. Ah. I misunderstood How does WP:BOOMERANG apply when then the person supposedly being boomeranged didn't bring the action? Lynn (SLW) (talk) 02:30, 13 August 2017 (UTC) Lynn, I don't even know where to start. To begin with, most of the commentary here has nothing to do with the WP:POLEMIC page (which Floquenbeam was completely within their administrative prerogative to remove, regardless) but rather about their generally comabative and hostile attitude towards criticism in general, whatever the context and space it occurs in. Second, so you managed to dig up one occasion, from years ago, in which a similar page was retained? So what? I think you should read WP:OTHERSTUFF (even if it is just an essay); or better yet confirmation bias, because while that one page may have been retained (for a very short time) on the basis of a "no consensus" result, the standard approach on this project, applied time and time again, is to not allow such evidence to be compiled and stored longterm. There's an unambiguous policy about this: WP:POLEMIC, in case you've missed it the dozen or so times it's been cited here already. It doesn't matter if, once upon a time, in one discussion, the community failed to uphold that policy (or decided under the facts of those circumstances that it was appropriate)--that's not a reason for doing so again here. Meanwhile your argument that deleting that policy-violating page "forced Morty to file an SPI prematurely" makes absolutely zero sense. No one put a clock on Morty and no one tried to (or realistically could) prevent Morty from compiling his evidence offline, if he felt that was a worthwhile use of his time. He was simply prevented from hosting the information in his user space. Again, per policy. Certainly no one encouraged Morty to file any one of those SPIs without proper merit or evidence (other than "they got in my away, why else would they do that if they weren't out to get me?"). Lastly, I don't really care what Guy's other concerns with the user were and which issue he should have raised first, according to you. The community members who have responded here are all discussing what they perceive to be a complex of issues with this user, but all of them going back to a short fuse and an inability to have their actions questions or their will thwarted without lashing out with accusations of "harassment". And frankly, your off-base argument that they are being singled out or treated differently from other members of the community (when almost all longterm POLEMIC pages are deleted upon discovery) is not going to help this user correct course, but only encourage them to turtle up further into the comforting assumption that they are being persecuted. Snow let's rap 02:21, 13 August 2017 (UTC) I'm just bringing up what I see to be a true flaw with ANI, which is that it never seems to deal with the issue at hand. (edit) The editor was brought here ostensibly for keeping a page against policy, and he/she is being threatened with a boomerang, when they didn't bring the action. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 02:38, 13 August 2017 (UTC) Until Ansh's response to you above, WP:BOOMERANG wasn't mentioned once, and nobody is being "threatened" with anything. The user's conduct is being examined. There is no prohibition here against noting relevant problematic behaviours just because they happen to not be the focus of the OP's original comments; that would make zero pragmatic sense for this space. Certainly the community is not required to turn a blind eye to an issue that is explicitly on display in the ANI itself. Snow let's rap 02:54, 13 August 2017 (UTC) Unlike what many people assume, BOOMERANG doesn't just apply to the filer of a case (or whatever the applicable metaphor is), it applies to everyone involved. (oh, I see - I wasn't addressing Morty specifically on that last point, just speaking generally) ansh666 03:03, 13 August 2017 (UTC) "And frankly, your off-base argument that they are being singled out or treated differently from other members of the community (when almost all longterm POLEMIC pages are deleted upon discovery) is not going to help this user correct course, but only encourage them to turtle up further into the comforting assumption that they are being persecuted." I don't think that doing a bait and switch at ANI, bringing up a minor problem-a POLEMIC page that had only been up for a month when others are not only allowed to stay longer but even defended, and then switching to what "the community" perceives as the real problem, helps with a feeling of persecution either. Also, he's being taken to task for filing SPIs, that don't appear to be entirely frivolous or vindictive. In my experience, discouraging filing SPIs when someone thinks they have legitimate cause will lead to much worse behavior. Believe me, I've been the victim of it, so I'm coming from a different perspective here. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 03:55, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

This discussion is thoroughly off the rails. I request an un-involved admin close it with no action against any editors. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:44, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I've changed the template from {{hat}} to {{cot}} to prevent edit warring. But hopefully off-topic discussions can stop here. Alex Shih^Talk 04:48, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Respectfully, with Lynn's divergence being now hatted, I must disagree with your description of the discussion and with your recommendation. There are real and substantial issues still being addressed here, and (Lynn aside) all of the community members who have responded to this thread are roughly of the same mind that the behaviour in question is problematic (even if no clear solution / response from the community has been proposed). Morty has responded to every halfway critical appraisal of his actions with cries of "harassment", even while under community scrutiny and while responding to admin directives here at ANI. If he's willing to shout accusations in the faces of admins trying to restrain him, how can we reasonably believe he's about to change his approach when dealing with the rank and file in disputes on some random article--especially the highly charged socio-political ones he favours? I don't see the point in closing this thread when it's virtually certain the user will be back here at ANI or back spamming SPI before we can blink. Snow ^{let's rap} 05:14, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Off topic Show me an ANI thread with this much activity that wasn't off the rails after 36 hours. I'd honestly like to know what that looks like. Absent some kind of ground rules, firmly enforced, there aren't any rails to be off of. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:18, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

My point also. The ANI was filed in response to what was called an "Attack Page". Now, I didn't see the page, and I don't know if there was anything on it that could be termed an "attack" rather than part of compiling an SPI case, but it sounds like that was what it was, and that it wasn't a frivolous case, as per Volunteer Marek. "Not frivolous" as opposed to "valid"...I'm not making judgements on the validity of Morty's suspicions, but it does seem to me that he was doing what he was supposed to do when one has suspicions of socking, and that is to file an SPI. Sounds like he filed a couple, ended up with egg on his face, and was being more cautious with the third, when all of a sudden his hand is forced. So, he files the SPI in response to that, and now he's being attacked himself on all fronts, for one being accused of "spamming" SPI. This is the problem with ANI. This thread went off the rails as soon as it stopped being about the "Attack Page" and whether or not it was okay to have it. Which means it went off the rails in lines 2-5 of the thread, when Guy Macon started bringing up the recent ANIs that had been brought against Morty. And, as to how long one should be allowed to maintain a page of difs related to sockpuppet suspicions, what is the "timely manner" (quote from policy) in which it should be used? The answers are: "It depends on whether or not you've recently been brought to ANI" and/or "It depends on what editor is keeping them, and who they are keeping them on," neither of which is an objective, rationale response that is going to diffuse an editor that is already feeling persecuted.

So yes, this should be closed without action. If another ANI is opened, there should first be a perusal of Robert's Rules of Order by all parties. The dogpile method that ANI currently uses is not just dysfunctional, it's something out of Lord of the Flies. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 13:37, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Cjhard has now been closed: "Checkuser finds nothing interesting connecting Cjhard with any of these accounts or with any problematic accounts at all."

Meanwhile, the previously listed problem behavior ([47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56][57]) has continued with [58][59][60][61].

There is a broad consensus that the behavior of Morty C-137 is problematic. Everyone who criticizes Morty C-137 in any way is accused of bad faith, harassment, or sockpuppetry. If this is closed without administrative action, someone will open a new report when the behavior continues. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:44, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

A Proposal

Morty C-137 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is now editing 2017 Unite the Right rally, and while he has managed to technically avoid violating 3RR (because some of his reverts are of obvious vandalism), editing that page at all during this discussion is a sign of incredibly poor judgment on his part. As a friendly offer to him, I suggest that he voluntarily agree to a post-1932 American Politics TBAN for the next month. Power~enwiki (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I note that I can't promise that other editors will consider this sufficient. Power~enwiki (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

And I note that I think that the object of the ANI has been met, which was to address the "Attack Page." It's gone. But you're right, he probably should walk away from articles like that for a while (why 1932?). I, for one, wouldn't touch one of those types of articles with a 10 foot pole (My focus is on the fur trade and nice, un-contentious articles about horses Oh, wait) My observation is that anyone who does edit those ends up getting regularly brought to ANI and blocked. Just part of the whole "encyclopedia anyone can edit" scenario. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 17:36, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

@Power~enwiki: Have I made any bad edits on that page? Can you point to any? I'm willing to bet you can't. Morty C-137 (talk) 17:57, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Not the right response Morty. He didn't say you made questionable edits, but that your editing the page was questionable. You need to walk away from all this for a while. Believe me, I know what it feels like to be dogpiled, and that's why I took hits here calling that out, but if you don't settle down you're going to be right back here and it will probably be for the right reasons next time. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 18:07, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, there is no "right response", ever. No matter what policy is complied with, there's another contradictory policy. Trying to report harassment results in more threats; filing quickly when there are likely sockpuppets gets attacked, trying to put it all together to get it right gets attacked the same way. Whatever I say, whatever I do, someone with an agenda will twist it and misrepresent it in some way. They won't do shit about people who hunt me page to page, they won't do shit about the people constantly making new accounts to harass me, but they'll go after me nonstop. Morty C-137 (talk) 19:20, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

And your belief that is the case is a good reason for the proposed TBAN. Your non-political edits seem to be stress free for you but your political edits have you seeing boogeymen at every turn. That's a problem for all of us much more than any problems you are dealng with. --DHeyward (talk) 20:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

And there's a reason someone who stalked my edits trying to irritate me will have no impact on my opinion. Morty C-137 (talk) 21:19, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

That's OK. Being blocked from editing Wikipedia has been show to be an effective method for impacting the opinion of editors like you.

You are claiming that it's always someone else, never you. For some inexplicable reason dozens of people who don't know each other have somehow gotten together and decided to harass poor, innocent you, while the vast majority of editors get along fine with everyone else.

The fact of the matter is that we do care about those who legitimately harass you, and we are putting in our absolute best effort to identify them and stop them from posting to Wikipedia. But none of that changes the fact that your behavior is a problem as well.

Here are some diffs. Study them, and identify the things that you are doing that others here are not doing. Then stop doing those things.

• "Bullshit and WP:WEASEL words"[62]
• "The repeated dishonesty ... just designed to try to irritate and provoke "[63]
• "Rudely and dishonestly misrepresenting ... false accusation"[64]
• "Fraudulent ... in bad faith"[65]
• "Obvious bad faith"[66]
• "Inappropriate and done in a manner calculated to harass."[67]
• "That proves this whole listing is in bad faith"[68]
• "You'd prefer to beat me up. Now I see why admins are considered suck stuck up jerks on wikipedia."[69]
• "What a load of harassing crap."[70]
• "Go away. You know you only posted that garbage to harass me."[71]
• "But hey, go ahead and roundly misrepresent everything."[72]
• "Not sure what game you're playing or if you just decided you hate my guts for some reason."[73]
• "Such a sad individual."[74]
• "So many personal attacks."[75]
• "Stalking my edits and reverting me wherever he can find me, in an attempt to get me angry."[76].

Free clue: The thing you keep doing that is pissing everyone else off involves accusing others of harassment, accusing others of bad faith, and in general acting like a total jerk.

I propose a short block for the above behavior, followed by longer and longer blocks if he keeps doing it. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:21, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I know full well you decided you hate me and want me blocked, and you won't shut up nor stop misrepresenting my edits till you get your way. Such as your rank mischaracterization of when I noted the many personal attacks from DHeyward after he launched a flurry of them including calling me "ban-boy". Morty C-137 (talk) 21:35, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Again, bad behavior (real or imaginary) by others does not excuse your behavior. If you think that either I or DHeyward have misbehaved, file an ANI report with diffs supporting your claims. Your continued assertions that it is never you, always someone else are making it more likely that you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Morty C-137, your post right above is an example of the behavior Guy was pointing out. It probably isn't really helpful to your cause. May I suggest you consider moderating your behavior some? Ealdgyth - Talk 21:59, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I've already posted the diffs here. LynnWysong was right about one thing, Guy Macon posted this just to cause a dogpile because this board isn't for resolving things, it's for a bunch of vultures to get their fill ripping into victims and engaging in DARVO. Morty C-137 (talk) 22:18, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Votes on action against Morty C-137

• Support short block Enough of this. This has wasted way too much time and the editor, even after a failed malformed SPI, still doesn't get it. --Tarage (talk) 22:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support short block as a minimum option to deal with Morty. Hopefully it'll cause him to look at the criticism he's received here and correct his behaviour, but his levels of IDHT are through the roof, so the more likely outcome is that he will add this to his list of grievances by the harrassers at Wikipedia and we'll be back here when he resumes editing. Cjhard (talk) 23:53, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Then what's the point? Lynn (SLW) (talk) 00:39, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

I also support a topic ban on political topics as a measure which might be more effective in preventing Morty's disruptive behaviour in the long term. Cjhard (talk) 01:05, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• OpposeThis ANI has been a cluster. The fact that it started by characterizing Morty's draft SPI report as an "Attack Page" fatally flawed it from the beginning. Process should mean something. Even if you have to let someone off the hook that probably doesn't deserve it, you can't use flawed process to justify retribution. Let's piece the conch back together and do make people do it right. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 00:08, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Extended discussion on the "draft SPI report"

Of course it was an attack page. It was (quite properly) deleted under WP:CSD#G10 and undeletion was declined at deletion review. Read WP:POLEMIC: "Generally, you should avoid substantial content on your user page that is unrelated to Wikipedia. Unrelated content includes, but is not limited to the compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner. Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason. Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used..." or read WP:ATP, which says "keeping a 'list of enemies' or 'list of everything bad user:XXX did' on your user space is neither constructive nor appropriate. Bear in mind that the key to resolving a dispute is not to find and list all the dirt you can find on somebody." --Guy Macon (talk) 00:41, 14 August 2017 (UTC) "...the compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted." Compiling evidence for an SPI is a legitimate action, and should not be termed an "Attack Page". The key words there are "timely manner" and "imminently." That should have been the focus of the ANI, unless there were things on there that didn't apply to the ANI. I don't know, and you didn't provide difs of any, instead you brought up his past ANIs. Not right. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 01:02, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Why do you keep insisting (although everyone else here keeps telling you otherwise) that it is somehow "inappropriate" to bring up multiple issues about a problematic user? This isn't a court case, nor is Wikipedia a bureaucracy. And Guy didn't pull any kind of "bait and switch" as you've implied repeatedly above. He brought an initial issue here, which could have been resolved quickly, except for the fact that Morty instead chose to accuse every admin and community member here who tried to get them to what was wrong with their approach of harassment. That is what lead to community looking into the broader issues with this user's conduct, insofar as I can tell from the above. Your insistence that Guy did something wrong or that the other community members here are acting inappropriately by no turning a blind eye to clearly problematic behaviours that were not mentioned by the OP has no basis in policy or community consensus and is, frankly, nonsensical. I appreciate that you identify with this user's aggravation and also that you don't have a high impression of Guy, but I don't think you're keeping proper perspective here and you're out on a limb as a result. Snow let's rap 04:06, 14 August 2017 (UTC) I have no impression of Guy at all, other than that I think he set up this ANI in an unfair manner. And, the fact that I am "out on a limb" for providing a dissenting opinion here is yet another indication of why this process is so dysfunctional. No, ANI is not a court, but it would serve the community much better if some ground rules, based on common court procedures, were established, rather than the free-for-all it currently is. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 11:41, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Well of all of the possible pro forma adjustments to the approach of ANI that you might suggest, the recommendation that we refuse to address behavioural problems not raised in the original post is pretty close to single most non-pragamtic and counter-intuitive suggestion you could make, and not one I think you will ever generate much support for, for that very reason. Snow let's rap 17:40, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Too bad. Because that is why ANI discussions constantly derail, resulting in bad decisions that don't resolve the issue at hand. I'm not saying that behavior can't be an exacerbating factor in a case, but in this case, the discuss veered so off-course the proposed "prevention of disruption" doesn't even fit the issue brought to ANI, and that is that Morty was planning another SPI report in the wake of two that were bad choices of action. So, the logical consequence would be to ban him from filing any more SPI's, but that doesn't seem necessary anymore, so, I guess the "community" has to find some other way to justify all this. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 18:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support both block and TBAN - As a pending changes reviewer, I am witnessing the reversions made on Jenny McCarthy in opposition to Morty's acts. A temporary block will stop D.Pearson's hatred, while the topic ban will prevent further attacks. I also recommend page protection for any affected articles that Pearson is attacking Morty on, including the one I mentioned. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 00:38, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Extended discussion regarding socks

O.M.G. You mean the reversions made by BanMorty (talk · contribs) and MortyKillYourself (talk · contribs)??????!!!!!!! No wonder the guy's got a huge chip on his shoulder. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 01:15, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Yes, but do notice that both of those uers has been already blocked. This community has done, and will continue to do, what it can to shield Morty from this trolling. What it cannot and will not do is allow Morty to see a foe (and then pursue them as such) in every person he comes across who questions his generally bombastic approach, for purely good-faith reasons. What would you have us do, block everyone he suspects of being a sock? Or just let him file SPI after SPI against longterm good-faith contributors, simply because they reverted him on an article that happens to be one of those where he has clashed with his troll? This user needs to learn that WP:DUCK ≠ "person who criticized me". Until they learn and internalize community standards on such things, it's hard to see any alternative to restraining their contributions. Snow let's rap 03:46, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Snow RiseI am simply pointing out that there are mitigating circumstances here. The guy is under attack and isn't dealing with it well. He was accused of seeing "socks everywhere" when in reality, there are socks everywhere. He filed a couple of un-advisable SPI's, (but I don't think they were entirely frivolous-it does sound like he had a reason to believe there was socking involved) and seemed to be realizing he needed to be more methodical if he did another one, hence the "Attack Page". He's like a high strung dog that was attacked by a pack of coyotes, when the other dogs came into help him he was so worked up that he couldn't tell friend from foe. He may have continued to calm down but what happens? He gets dragged here under the auspices that his more methodical manner of dealing with socks is an "Attack Page". Yes, the difs provided by Guy are concerning, and those are what he should be taken to task for. But that issue has been so buried in the red herring of the "attack page" that right now, any block or topic ban is probably not going to send the right message, and would instead seem arbitrary and capricious. That is why process is important here. This idea of "well, we can't really punish you for what you were brought here for so we'll find something else to punish you for is, in my mind, the sign of a "community" devolving into anarchy. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 11:41, 14 August 2017 (UTC) You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what this place is for and what the goals of the community are in a situation like this: no one is here to "punish" Morty, the goal is is prevent further disruption. Would it be nice if we could do that short of restricting his participation on the project? Of course. But multiple admins and community volunteers tried that approach, only to be told they were "clearly out to get/smeer/misrepresent/troll/harass" Morty, or something similar, all while the editor continues to exhibit problematic behaviours in both mainspace and in community spaces and on procedural pages. And I'm sorry, but your argument that if he had just been left in peace to plan his attack page, everything would have turned out rainbows and sunshine does not track for me, to put it mildly. Nor is the fact that a troll amped him up excuse for his lashing out at everyone else; we need our editors to show a more baseline level of restraint than that. And I think it's just plain histrionic to suggest that this project is "descending into anarchy" because the community has decided to do something about this situation; insisting that our editors comport with just the most very basic and essential provisions of our community behavioural guidelines is the opposite of anarchy. And like most community sanctions, Morty will be able to appeal any topic ban after a time, once he can demonstrate a period of non-disruptive editing and identify what went wrong here (without alluding to alleged harassment by the community). Snow let's rap 17:40, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Now you're putting words in my mouth and twisting what I said, which means this discussion, like this whole Action, has devolved into a hopeless mess. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 18:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support either or both short block and topic ban. Morty C-137 has clearly indicated that he will not stop his disruptive behavior unless forced to do so. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:44, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support block and AP2 topic ban. --DHeyward (talk) 02:16, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support short-term block and (especially) topic ban from AP2 topics. The IDHT is off the charts here and Morty seems incapable of distinguishing community concerns from genuine harassment. In my opinion the troll who has pestered him (presumably after locking horns with him on some article or another) has only exacerbated an underlying and pronounced difficulty with the collaborative process that seems to be fundamental to Morty's approach on this project. In other words, I'm quite certain that Morty's battleground attitude is a feature of his general attitude while editing here, and that it has been (and will continue to be) present, even in the absence of any kind of actual provocation. A preventative block to temporarily disengage him from his current feuds, combined with removing him from the especially contentious areas until he has demonstrated an understanding of our behavioural standards stands the best chance of forestalling further attacks on passers-by. Personally I would have started with a much more narrow ban from SPI, but the AP2 topic ban being the one put forward, I can support it without qualms. Snow ^{let's rap} 03:21, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support topic ban of some kind, no opinion on a possible block. I think that a tban from SPI (broadly construed to prevent Morty from throwing about these blanket accusations regarding others being socks in general - we're smart enough to be able to get rid of the two sockfarms when they pop up) would be better than a tban from AP2, but if that's the consensus there's no opposition from me. ansh666 05:57, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

  Per comment below, I'd also support a lengthy block at this time. ansh666 05:29, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support - both block and TBAN. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:38, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose a TBAN most definitely as nothing in the above discussion warrants it. As far as a "short block"... well, Morty does need to chill a bit although having to deal with such a situation is understandably stressful.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:56, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban, I agree that would be overkill. He hasn't edited in weeks and isn't disrupting anything. A short block may have been appropriate at the time, and if someone wants to add one just so it's in the block log, I'm not opposed. But WP:NOTPUNITIVE and since Morty hasn't been editing at all anyway, what's the point? Mojoworker (talk) 19:52, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• The issue with that is Morty stopped editing just before Beyond My Ken's !vote above. Should editors be able to avoid sanctions by temporarily ceasing editing after 7 people have !voted for some kind of sanction against them? And given his last edit where he refers to the WP community as "aspergers bullies": [77], it's clear he hasn't got the message about his gross incivility and personal attacks. Cjhard (talk) 20:57, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

As I said, I'd support a short block, but a TBan is excessive. I'm not sure why you're prompting me to reiterate that. Mojoworker (talk) 21:36, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Proposal for Snow Close

It is clear that there is community consensus for a short block followed by a topic ban.

I propose that this report be closed with a short block followed by a six month topic ban from filing new sock puppet investigations and from all edits about and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States, broadly construed. This should be accompanied by a warning about accusing other editors of harassment or bad faith, and an explanation that any further accusations should be in the form of ANI reports, not inline comments. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:11, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Absolutely not as a WP:SNOW close. However, I do support your proposal. Power~enwiki (talk) 22:48, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Not a block, that would purely be punitive; TBAN is another thing. By the way, any admins thinking of closing this might want to first examine the rev-del'd edits a few minutes ago to this section. Black Kite (talk) 00:23, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

A block would not be punitive if the behavior is ongoing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:39, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

...Which opens up a golden opportunity for User:Morty C-137. Are you listening Morty? All you have to do is give us the slightest indication that you understand why eight people just supported having you blocked and/or topic banned and indicate that you will make a good-faith effort to change. Pretty much everyone here (including me) would love to close this with "no administrative action required" and move on. Just give us a reason to think that things will change. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:57, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Guy, that's good advice, and I've left a note on Morty's talk page urging him to heed it. It doesn't look like he's edited since you left the offer – let's see how he responds before this proceeds further. Mojoworker (talk) 19:00, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

This is good advice (though I'll bet you double nickels on the dime that this will be WP:GAMEd at some point by some bad-faith user who's gunning for Morty. Just putting this here so at some point (if I'm paying attention) I can come back and say "I told you so".Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:56, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

For those of us who were unable to see the rev-del edits, can you give us some understanding as to how they pertain to this? --Tarage (talk) 02:12, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

It was a grossly uncivil comment against the editor in question from a likely sock. Alex Shih^Talk 02:25, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

A CU confirmed (by me) sock. There have been two unrelated sets of socks attacking Morty. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/D.H.110/Archive stopped in April. The ones mentioned there in June are part of this set: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/D.Pearson/Archive. They are definitely unrelated other than the target - the second set is mimicking the first. Except at the beginning, when D.Pearson suddenly appeared to defending Morty and to help him edit war, leading to a possible/inconclusive SPI.Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Morty C-137/Archive. Doug Weller talk 08:20, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

There's another one on there right now. So childish. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 14:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

So is User:Morty C-137 laying low or reappearing in different form after contemplative period? --DHeyward (talk) 21:44, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

That's what I've been wondering. Sro23 (talk) 01:42, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Maybe waiting for the next exciting Rick and Morty episode? Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:18, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

All joking aside, he was with his grandmother in hospice, and then attended her funeral. He won't be editing anytime soon, so the compassionate thing would be just to close this as unnecessary, or simply let it archive. Mojoworker (talk) 19:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I understand the appeal to compassion, but sanctions on Morty remain necessary. Morty has retired before, only to be back shortly later. I'm certain that "anytime soon" will be in the span of one or two months, and the behaviour and disruption will continue as it has. I accept that the short block may be unnecessary, but if there's consensus for an AP2 ban, that should be instituted. Cjhard (talk) 21:53, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

No you don't no they don't. You're just trying to twist the knife in.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:51, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

It pains me to say it, but I think an indef block is necessary here. Morty should do a clean-start under a new account if he ever feels like contributing here again. I hate to suggest something that seems to reward the most abusive and nasty troll I've seen on Wikipedia, but after Morty's last comment [78], I think the situation is irreparable. Power~enwiki (talk) 00:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd wager most people would be willing to look the other way on the PAs because of the circumstances, but at the same time Wikipedia is not therapy, and I think Morty would certainly benefit from not participating in a project that seems to cause them so much stress at such a stressful time in their life, at least for a while. So yeah, I'd agree with that. Although technically it wouldn't be a valid clean start due to ongoing sanctions, and like Guy Macon I do have a suspicion that this wouldn't be their first time doing it. ansh666 05:28, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Just wanted to note this [79].Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:51, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Can someone just put this to rest and close it without action? Those that crave blood can try to get it from the troll.Lynn (SLW) (talk) 01:29, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

It would certainly be nice to find who is so interested in Morty if not Morty himself. --DHeyward (talk) 04:57, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

We had nine !votes for some sort of block or topic ban and you want to close it without action? What say we simply ask an uninvolved admin to determine the consensus and apply whatever sanctions (if any) he/she feels are appropriate? --Guy Macon (talk) 15:56, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Make the motion. There was already one for a snow close that didn't go anywhere. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 18:08, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

AIV not responding

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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97.113.24.130 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Can someone please block this prolific vandal IP? Thanks. Dr. K. 09:08, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

 Done Blocked for 31 hours. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 09:22, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you very much Malcolmxl5. Best regards. Dr. K. 09:24, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

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Rangeblock needed for Wilmington, Delaware -- BushidoBrown IPs

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A bunch of IP6 addresses have been making a great many small but disruptive and wrong manual-of-style (MOS) changes to primarily rap music articles, in the same manner as recently blocked BushidoBrown. One of the MOS problems is that, in running prose, first is changed to 1st, second is changed to 2nd, etc.[80] Another MOS problem is that lower case words in song and album titles are capitalized. Third, unreferenced genres are added, each capitalized.[81] A fourth MOS problem is that a rap artist's preferred style is inserted, for instance a dollar sign for the letter s.[82]

This problem has been going on for two years in many thousands of total edits. The good news is that a tight rangeblock should take care of this particular range. Binksternet (talk) 10:24, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Putting the above into {{blockcalc}} shows the IPs are just 2601:46:4:f229::/64 which can be blocked without concern as it may well be a single home address. With the right gadget enabled, contribs shows the contributions for the range. Johnuniq (talk) 11:16, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

• Dear admins, there are 219 IPs on that list, so it would be nice for this to be taken care of. Softlavender (talk) 17:49, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

• I have been taking a look at this. First up, an IPv6 /64 subnet is typically allocated to a household and I have no problem is saying that all of these IP addresses are one person using that subnet. I note that multiple editors have reverted problematic edits and left messages for the user but none have been responded to. I note also that there have been I think five blocks on individual IPs. Whether it is BushidoBrown evading his block I'm less certain but given the length of time this has been going on, the lack of responsiveness from this user and that they have been blocked multiple times, I have blocked the /64 subnet for six months. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 18:15, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Project MKUltra

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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51 reverts on Project MKUltra today. The IP is already blocked. Might I suggest blocking the other edit warrior and then applying PC protection? The article is a bit of a magnet for fringe theorists... --Guy Macon (talk) 16:13, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Clearly Guy Macon has been compromised and is doing the will of nefarious and unknown Svengalis. (No really, that's a crazy history. I fully endorse his suggestions). Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 16:24, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

The article has been quiet for about seven hours now (presumably since the IP got blocked). I've left a note at the user's talk page, but I'm reluctant to block over this. It might not have been blatant vandalism, but it was close. GoldenRing (talk) 16:34, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

@GoldenRing: I am astonished at this comment. I am repeating here what I told you at my talkpage: That was a clear case of vandalism, including unsourced BLP violations about former president Barack Obama. Also included in most of the edits were threats against the reverting editors: example 1, example 2, example 3. I am astonished at your suggestion. Dr. K. 16:46, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, taking a closer look, I think GoldenRing is right. Pretty excusable in the grand scheme. Dumuzid (talk) 16:54, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

You mean aside from the rest of the unsourced BLP violation, hoax, etc, edit, you leave messages like "THE NSA WILL SEE YOUR NAMES NOW" and "Note: If the below case is deleted, all users involved with deleting this modern case will actually get reported such as user Dr.K., JIM1138, etc who WILL be reported to the Federal government., and It will be requested that Wikipedia deletes Dr. K's account for post stalking.", etc., into the article and not revert? Dr. K. 17:12, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

@Dr.K.: Hey, I'm the one here arguing you shouldn't be blocked over this...

That said, Floq has the history complete below. I'd not connected this to the report above. The few diffs I looked at didn't contain BLP vios and I think could possibly be construed as a content dispute, hence my 'reluctant' comment above. IF I was considering a block, I'd have read more and (I expect) have come to the same conclusion as Floq. GoldenRing (talk) 17:32, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

• Suggestions that Dr.K should be or might be blocked for reverting this are nuts. I suppose the underlying issue here is that it appears it took admins 1.5 hours after Dr.K first reported the IP to AIV (after 1-2 reverts) to block them. He also reported the lack of AIV action to ANI. Now in Dr.K's shoes I'd have given up after the first few reverts, and waited for the glacial admin vandal-blocking system to kick in. But I can't believe people would seriously suggest a block for vandalism and BLPVIO reversion, and I'm reasonably confident no admin would actually do so. I'm assuming GoldenRing's "I'm reluctant to block over this" is just a diplomatic way of saying "I would never block over this".

Now I'm headed over to AIV to do my part and see if I can block 1 or 2 vandals before returning to the real world. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:18, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

• Huh? I blocked the IP at 9:21 this morning in response to a request from Dr.K. a couple of sections above and there's been no further activity since. On the face of it, the disruption has been dealt with. If it resumes, we can deal with it then. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:24, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Obstructive edits to the Lists of prehistoric life by US state articles

Recently I began taking the pains to compile lists of every kind of prehistoric life form reported from the respective fossil record of every US state (example). Images are very important to these articles and a huge amount of effort is required to select the most appropriate images of the state's most representative taxa from among lists frequently including many hundreds or thousands of members. To keep the level of effort needed by this process to manageable levels, I've been using temporary placeholder images so that I can copy and paste the filenames and taxa into their code instead of typing the image code and captions out by hand.

Recently an editor named User:Onel5969 objected to the presence of the placeholder images, and despite being informed of their importance to the development of the articles has reverted my attempts to put them back three times. Since the articles themselves are just a list of links accompanied by images I cannot continue to develop them without adding more images. Since this would involve re-adding the removed placeholders it would constitute a violation of the spirit of the three revert rules. Thus User:Onel5969 has created a frustrating catch-22 where his complaints about the articles' undeveloped states are themselves preventing me from developing the articles. I would like to request permission to expand and improve these articles tomorrow and onward using my temporary placeholders without pointless obstruction from this needlessly tendentious user. Abyssal (talk) 04:51, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Not sure if I understand right, but couldn't you use a text editor or maybe a sandbox? Κσυπ Cyp   06:39, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree using a sandbox may be the better solution. P.S. For those like me wondering if there was any attempt at discussion before bringing this to ANI, there was some here User talk:Abyssal#"List of the prehistoric life of .5BUS State.5D" articles Nil Einne (talk) 06:50, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

 Comment: I suggest withdrawing this report. Your work is very much appreciated, but these placeholder images were left untouched since 9 August. While there is no deadline, this is precisely what sandbox or the draft space is for when the article is not ready in the form to be published. If you cannot do so, at least hide these images by using <!-- [[File:PSM V53 D224 The great cretaceus ocean.jpg|thumb|right|Fossil of ''[[Animal]]''.]] -->Alex Shih^Talk 07:04, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

@Cyp: @Nil Einne: @Alex Shih: I would have used a sandbox if I had known they would have taken so long to complete (like I did with the Paleontology in the United States prose articles, which were all part of a single DYK). However, as it stands moving all 50 articles and then moving them back is just another waste of time and energy that will slow the completion of the series as a whole. I can't "withdraw the report" because I can't make progress on the articles due to the 24hr three revert rule. I need permission to continue building the articles without penalty for violating it. I never would have made a report at all if it weren't necessary for me to do so in order to continue to actually work on the encyclopedic content. The fact that User:Onel5969 centered his obstructions around the Wyoming page specifically is especially frustrating because I've been developing the articles in alphabetical order and Wyoming is dead last among the states. Can I please be allowed to continue working on these articles without obstruction? There won't be any placeholder images to object to if I'm allowed to replace them with the actual content! Abyssal (talk) 14:59, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I initiated the discussion on your talk page. It is not "obstructive" to ask that you not place malformed pages into article space as opposed to waiting until they are ready. CJK09 (talk) 14:42, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I never accused you of being obstructive because you did not engage in any obstructive edit warring behavior despite the difference of opinion. Abyssal (talk) 14:59, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• The continued personal attacks are getting quite lame. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 15:46, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I haven't made any personal attacks at any point in this discussion. Abyssal (talk) 15:52, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

@Abyssal: Again, hide the images with the code. I will do it for you. Alex Shih^Talk 17:06, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

@Alex Shih: I'll use the code hiding technique, but at some points in the article development they'll have to be temporarily visible to assess how many images can be accommodated to the list length. Can I ask for leniency during the times they're briefly visible? Abyssal (talk) 15:59, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

@Abyssal: I am not sure why preview couldn't do the trick, but I suppose that's reasonable. As long as it's (preferably) tagged with {{Under construction}} and not left untouched for too long? Alex Shih^Talk 16:05, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Alright. I'll tag the articles as under construction. Abyssal (talk) 16:07, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Excessive amount of reverts from users that are inaccurate as well.

I have been having trouble and stress with a handfull of editors (User talk:Walter Görlitz), (User talk:Resolute) and (User talk:JohnInDC) over the years who would always revert edits of articles of Major League Soccer clubs. I don't appreciate who they all would undo every contribution I would do, dedicating time and resarch along with effort to attempt to improve the articles while striving to see how the articles can be updated and current along how the information can be more accurate and how much of it can be placed once discovered.

One example as such Undid revision 797117817 by Mikemor92 (talk)

In this 3 years I have here, all they and other few editors would do is to undo my contributions with whatever they think is right however I don't think they can dictate what can or can not be edited as they are also editors with their own opinion which are not facts. I haven't​ seen anyone of them contributing on those pages as I have, nor did I vandalized the articles there. If it isn't reverting, it is recording my additions which really isn't an improvement to only take credit. It has always been those handful of editors that are never willing to be cooperative nor open minded in other's ideas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluhaze777 (talk • contribs) 17:35, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

It is possible that those other three editors really are at fault here. However, looking at the long history of warnings at User talk:Bluhaze777, the user's block history, and this last message left by the user at Talk:Major League Soccer, I'm inclined to say that the reporting editor is at least as much to blame, if not moreso or fully. —C.Fred (talk) 17:40, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• With edit summaries such as "You better not do anything with my team and it's lecagy this club carries," "that content has been there for years. You yourself can't​ just revert things that aren't even vandalism. You haven't​ contributed on these pages," "NO SOURCE IS NEEDED," "YOU need to stop making pointless edits that are inaccurate. You don't know a thing about Sports in America," "Reverted edit. Since only one editor in particular has issues with my edits," I'm thinking this is a classic WP:BOOMERANG case, and that Bluhaze777 has a serious WP:OWN problem ... quite aside from his curious assertion that the sole Wikipedia activity of Resolute, JohnInDC and Walter Görlitz are collectively to revert his edits. But if he'd like to present some specific diffs that he thinks were unfairly reverted, I'm sure we're all ears.

  (Added a little later) And just FYI, I've examined some of Bluhaze's recent edit activity. He appears to be edit warring across a wide swathe of American soccer team articles to insert two hobby horses of his; histories of previous unrelated professional and amateur soccer teams in the host cities, and a bizarre insistence (absent any attempt to source the same) that the legal corporate names of teams like FC Dallas and Atlanta United FC are actually "Football Club Dallas" and "Atlanta United Football Club," insisting that such names couldn't possibly contain acronyms. (I suppose no one told the ECHL they weren't allowed to have one as a legal name, for example.) Ravenswing 17:51, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Sorry to have caused you stress by reverting some of your content. That was not my intention. My intention is to make an encyclopedia.

Do you recognize that you added this content without discussion? I recognize you were trying to improve the articles with the content. Do you understand why it was reverted? Often content that is added without discussion, even when it's trying to improve an article, will be reverted if it's not on-topic or not an improvement to the article in question.

Do you recognize that we did not undo every contribution you would do? I assume that this is hyperbole to make a rhetorical point.

Are you willing to follow WP:CONSENSUS in the matter as it's being discussed at the Major League Soccer article? I am pleased you opened that discussion. I also recognize that the discussion is not going the way you had hoped. It also seems that you're shopping forums in order to get your way rather than recognize the group consensus (or is it group-think?). I hope we're not acting like a cabal that is forcing our will on a visionary.

As for FC -> Football Club issues. The discussion was progressing. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:21, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• It's a pretty basic dispute. OP added material that was off-topic on several articles. It was removed by multiple editors and the de facto consensus stands against re-inclusion. They proceeded to edit war across numerous articles before finally beginning a discussion at Talk:Major League Soccer, where I came involved. Through that discussion, I offered advice on where they could properly place the material they wished to add. They have chosen not to. This report doesn't really even need a Boomerang. Just a little reinforcement on the fact that while there is a place for what they seek to add, they need to put it in more appropriate articles. Resolute 20:16, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

  The only reason I would seek a boomerang is if it's clearly shown that Bluhaze777 is WP:NOTHERE. The battleground behaviour shown here is not quite enough to proved that. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:01, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Rangeblock for Now music articles

Somebody in Nottingham and neighboring areas is vandalizing the articles related to Now That's What I Call Music! discography. The vandal is changing release dates[83] or adding a fake song by nonexistent band "Xerox".[84] Can we get a block on 90.193.116.168 and a pair of rangeblocks on 2A02:C7D:9E23:3000 and 2A02:C7F:401D:800? Binksternet (talk) 21:25, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Involved IPs

• 29 Aug 2A02:C7D:9E23:3000:C4B5:6FBB:2FEE:FEC6 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 24, 29 Aug 90.193.116.168 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 26 Aug 2A02:C7D:9E23:3000:E964:83A7:73C9:4222 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 22 Aug 2A02:C7D:9E23:3000:29FC:AD97:2FA5:5F93 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 21–22 Aug 2A02:C7F:401D:800:45F4:B148:47BD:6134 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 17 Aug 2A02:C7D:9E23:3000:393B:1508:3260:C0B6 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 15–16 Aug 2A02:C7D:9E23:3000:F484:C4E:4A7E:9DDA (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 30 Jun 2A02:C7F:401D:800:A474:2DC2:503A:71D4 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

I've blocked 2A02:C7D:9E23:3000::/64 and 90.193.116.168 for two weeks each. The 2A02:C7F:401D:800::/64 has been disruptive on that range much longer so I blocked it for three months. This is an LTA but I can't remember who exactly at the moment.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:34, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• It sounds like Teenage Fairytale Dropouts, but it doesn't geolocate to Australia. Katie^talk 23:51, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Great! Thanks for the fast action. Binksternet (talk) 22:45, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

User:VladGerp

User:VladGerp has gone through and systematically removed links to other language wikis on hundreds of articles. Is there a way to undo this all with a bot to spare the effort of undoing all manually? (talk) 15:32, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• Natureium, I have deleted only wrong links or links which are already provided by wikidata. --VladGerp (talk) 15:44, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

My apologies. Based on google translate, they appeared to be the same topics. Natureium (talk) 16:06, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

So, Natureium, is this edit correct <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Backpacking_%28wilderness%29&type=revision&diff=797649027&oldid=796628844>? I thought that this edit by VladGerp was probably vandalism. Rwood128 (talk) 20:50, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

These are links to Camping, and not to the Backpacking as far as I can see. --VladGerp (talk) 06:00, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

The link to RU is correct as it was before your change. The term "Туристический поход" is significantly closer to Backpacking (wilderness) than it is to Camping. I'm not HE-n, but I'm pretty sure about that one too. For the others, I've relied on Google Translate, and they appear to be more closely related to backpacking than camping. AlexEng^(TALK) 06:07, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't know. I've been using google translate to see why they were removing material, but I think a native speaker would probably be better able to determine when it's vandalism. And since there was no edit summary, I didn't know if maybe they were just removing translations because they have some strange prejudice against other languages. Natureium (talk) 13:57, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• User:AlexEng, maybe you are right in this case, I should think more about this (I was confused by Ukrainian articles uk:Спортивні походи and uk:Туристичний похід). Let us continue our discussion on Talk:Backpacking (wilderness)? --VladGerp (talk) 07:09, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

And User:AlexEng. VladGerp, is this [85] correct? Rwood128 (talk) 11:25, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not a native speaker of any of the involved languages in that article, but VladGerp's reasoning seems sound. Those (non-en) articles do not appear to reference the UK-specific merchant marine. AlexEng^(TALK) 21:17, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• Based on the two example links above, VladGerp is right. We no longer list interwikis in the articles; for some years, this has been superseded by linking at Wikidata, and having interwiki links in the article prevents the list of articles linked at Wikidata from appearing. Plus, the links at Merchant Navy (United Kingdom) were incorrect: those were the interwikis for the general article, Merchant marine, which I have now perhaps ineptly linked to in the lede of the former article. @VladGerp: you need to use edit summaries. I suggest "Removing interwiki links; now handled on Wikidata". There used to be bots that did this; perhaps the task has been ruled obsolete. But as indicated by the wilderness backpacking example, one has to be careful in deciding what to link to via Wikidata; different-language Wikipedias often divide a subject up differently. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:33, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Maybe someday someone will explain what Wikidata actually does except for being an ultracomplicated way of storing interwiki links. EEng 19:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Contributes to the WMF objective of employment for its programmers, and other things that WP:BEANS precludes my mentioning. However, hosting the interwiki links centrally is not a bad idea; it makes keeping them up to date relatively simple (when the floating box for adding one is working; otherwise I've had the joy of working through languages such as Finnish in attempting to add a new article), but when the languages divide things up differently—or when someone, human or bot, has created a new topic there for something that already has one—it's a horror. I backed away from fixing a mess concerning a Japanese film, for example. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:16, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

The problem with VladGerp is that it seems they remove innterwikilinks blindly. For example, Polish Autonomous District contained valid links which were lost because in Wikidata there were two unmerged entries for same concept. And in my prractice it happens quite often. Not all people know all language and I merged quite a few wikidata records already. Unlike typo fixing and other minor stuff, such brainless massive editing is actually a disruption of the connectedness of information. This interlanguage connectedness is very important, because it helps to translate many terms you will not find in any dictionary.

Another problem is that Wikidata is completely clueless with synonyms and semantic fields become torn into arbitrary pieces.

Therefore I am reverting it all, because "manual" interwiki are harmless, and I don't understand this crusade. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:58, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

@Staszek Lem: I agree, Wikidata is a mess in the many, many cases where languages divide topics differently. But "manual" interwikis prevent the display of the Wikidata list, and therefore obscure where there is a valid Wikidata entry. The solution is therefore to fix the Wikidata linkage, as you are doing (and congratulations and thanks for doing so; merging items defeats me because apart from the challenge of remembering the strings of numbers, they demand I download some tool) and where possible to include interlanguage links to illuminate what exists on other Wikipedias and could be consulted by a reader who reads the relevant language. If, instead, "manual" interwikis are put in, the reader is actually misled into thinking the list of articles displayed in the sidebar is actually those linked to the English article—and that includes editors who might otherwise translate something for us. Yngvadottir (talk) 00:25, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I am thinking vice versa: the sidebar links to other wikis, not from them. And IMO wikipedia serves readers not editors-translators. As a reader I prefer to have an extra link to extra info, and google-translate mostly works; otherwise I may post translation request. Some time ago I used to add i/w into "See also", until I run into a stubborn gnome who insisted this is against the guidelines. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:38, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Requesting removal of personal attack in edit summary

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I request the removal of the gratuitous personal attack in this edit summary, currently visible in the revision history of Being and Time. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:55, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I have notified the editor in question about this thread on their Talkpage. Irondome (talk) 01:07, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

@FreeKnowledgeCreator: The edit summary doesn't meet WP:RD2, but the WP:OR from this editor is concerning. Alex Shih^Talk 01:12, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm still trying to figure out what that edit has to do with Jim1138. Acroterion (talk) 01:13, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I will complain about other users if it is appropriate in a particular situation, Acroterion. You might have noticed that I did not, in fact, make any complaint at all in this case; simply requested the removal of a personal attack. The edit has of course nothing to do with Jim1138; apparently someone mixed up the threads. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 01:14, 1 September 2017 (UTC)≈

Acroterion's comment had nothing to do with you, FKC. It was meant for thechinesekid and to go in the section above. General Ization ^Talk 01:16, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Fine, thanks for the clarification. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 01:17, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I've figured that out - my comment wasn't aimed at you. Edit conflicts are hell. I'm now trying to work through the phrase "Expectedly to a vainglorious simpleton, it is poor writing" I'm not convinced gibberish like that makes enough sense to amount to a personal attack. Acroterion (talk) 01:17, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I suspect the editor in question uses English As She Is Spoke as a tool to edit WP. Irondome (talk) 01:27, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I accept that the edit summary won't be removed (but while it may be "gibberish", it is still clearly a personal attack). I just hope it's clear to the user who made it that he can't go on doing this. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 01:27, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I agree; This edit summary has a few issues too [86]. Acroterion (talk) 01:29, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Complaint

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There is currently a person called Jim1138 who is an experienced contributor on wikipedia, but he always vandalises peoples edits when they were actually trying to help. For the evidents, you can visit his talk page Jim1138. Sincerely, Thechinesekid (talk) 00:49, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

If the link does not work, try to search for User:Jim1138. Sincerely, Thechinesekid (talk) 00:56, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

No, he's not a vandal, so please stop making such accusations. You're not a vandal either, and Jim1138's been trying to help you. Criticism of your edits isn't vandalism. Acroterion (talk) 00:53, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

In reviewing your contributions I see some difficulty with English - you have introduced a number of grammatical errors and unsourced content, which other users have noticed. Good-faith edits that make sentences erroneous or unreadable can't be allowed to remain. You might need to avoid such edits until your English proficiency has improved. Acroterion (talk) 00:59, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Short answer: no. Please stop looking for ways to complain about other users. Acroterion (talk) 01:09, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Huntingdon UK IP vandals

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Is a rangeblock appropriate for the following date-changing/genre-warring vandal from Huntingdon, UK? Binksternet (talk) 22:10, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

• All edits from this range going back to July 5th have been to add unsourced (and at times dubious) content and genres to music articles, so I've blocked 2A00:23C1:B3CA:6300::/64 for a month.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:15, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

On mobile so tools are hard to use, but it looks like a single /64 to me. GoldenRing (talk) 22:20, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

• Note that they're not in Huntingdon. Huntingdon is one of those physical locations that represents a logical clustering for a large chunk of the UK intertubes, not necessarily users located there. Although these particular ones might have a behavioural commonality too, geolocation evidence here is a false positive for them being related. Blackholing Huntingdon would have a lot of collateral damage too. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:51, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

• It's only a /64 range, probably a single user or location. Unlikely to be any collateral damage at all. It's when you start rangeblocking larger ranges that such issues might arise. Black Kite (talk) 10:26, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

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MusikAnimal and the "Derp vandal" filters

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Yesterday I asked at EFN about two edit filters titled "Derp vandal" and "Derp II" (I don't know the numbers because both are private). The reason why I asked is because these two filters were logging a lot of edits, many of which were not vandalism and were perfectly good-faith edits. Even I myself tripped the filters a couple of times when warning vandals. MusikAnimal then removed my post saying that they didn't want to discuss it on-wiki, and that the filters would not go into disallow mode. I can understand why we don't want to discuss a particular vandal or LTA on-wiki, but I don't understand why three private filters targeting them would be logging so many false positives. Therefore, I asked MA on their talk page to provide some basic info without spilling the beans. They again removed my post with the reassurance that I was "safe" in the edit summary. I let it go and went back to what I was doing earlier.

However, this morning, I noticed that the "Derp vandal II" filter was disallowing multiple edits when I reported an IP to AIV for abuse Log flooding. This goes against what MA said yesterday, which was that none of the three filters would be disallowing. I therefore asked on their talk page why the filter was set to disallow. They summarily blanked the message again. The abuse log is still showing lots of disallow actions for that filter, a lot of which I bet are false positives.

At this point, I'm going to stop reporting users to AIV for tripping these filters, because I think that they are way to broad. I also think that MA needs to communicate a little better. You can provide basic information for uninvolved editors without spilling the beans to the vandals. 24.91.248.60 (talk) 14:59, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

You should never assume that just because a user trips a filter they should be sent to AIV, especially if you don't understand what it is for. There is a very good reason I've repeatedly asked you to not communicate about this on-wiki. Do not worry about there being false positives, as the filter author that is my responsibility and I take full blame should something go wrong. Also, the conception of false positives does not apply to log-only filters, which may be meant only for monitoring. The offer to discuss off-wiki still stands, and frankly I don't think we should speaking more about this here given the high visibility of this page — MusikAnimal ^talk 15:06, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Also, I just got disallowed by a filter for "long-term pattern abuse" when attempting to PROD an article. Seriously? These filters are way too broad. 24.91.248.60 (talk) 15:25, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't know anything about that one but you can report it at WP:EF/FP and someone will take a look — MusikAnimal ^talk 15:33, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

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2001:8003:5354:7000:99DC:FE30:70A:9D4

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2001:8003:5354:7000:99DC:FE30:70A:9D4 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is blocked, shows no edits other edits on their history, but has added personal attacks and anti-Palestine rants. Not sure what to do with this. Thank you Jim1138 (talk) 08:38, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

• Reblocked with TP access removed. Black Kite (talk) 10:29, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

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IPv6 range block needed because of repeated childish vandalism

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2600:8805:5800:2100:* (aka 2600:8805:5800:2100::/64, i.e. an IPv6 single user connection), geolocating to Virginia Beach, VA, has been regularly vandalising articles relating to Russia for more than a month now (see total contributions for the range; sample edits: #1, #2, #3, #4), childish vandalism that two of the IPs in the range are currently blocked for, but keeps coming back as new IPs in the same range. So could we please have a swift range block for a month or more to stop them? - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 10:07, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Childish vandalism indeed. Some edits are revdeled, some edit summaries at Scorer's function are oversighted, there's blocks and block evasion, it's been going on since end of July. /64 subnet blocked for one month. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:26, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

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Baltic amber and potential canvassing

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I am not sure if this is the most appropriate venue, but I'd like to hear from experienced editors about a proposal to merge the article Baltic amber with Kaliningrad Amber Combine which is mostly advocated by user Kevmin, especially in light of this apparent attempt at canvassing.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 21:00, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Given the actions of User:Underlying lk it seemed that a wider audience was needed, I pinged the most recent active posters of WP:Paleontology, WP:Geology and WP:Russia. There was no canvasing involved in notifying as I have no interaction history with any of them but one.--Kevmin § 21:05, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Given that the article you're trying to merge is about a Russian company based and operating exclusively in Russia it would seem sensible to contact a number of members of WP Russia. Or at least ask for feedback in a neutral venue instead of cherry picking your audience, which is not exactly trust-inducing behavior.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 21:11, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

What cherry picking did I employ? I pinged from all three of the projects that cover both articles, and made no active selection other then looking at the talk pages of the projects and pinging the members that posted there.--Kevmin § 21:15, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I count 2 editors from WP paleontology, 1 from WP dinosaurs and zero from WP Russia. The article you've been trying to merge is about neither paleontology nor dinosaurs. It is about a Russian company, though.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 21:35, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

The last 3 pings Anna Frodesiak, George Ho, and Ymblanter were directly from WP:Russia, they were the recent active posters there, so no i did not do as you assert and avoid WP:Russia.--Kevmin § 21:41, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

You contacted 2 members of WP paleontology, 1 from WP dinosaurs and zero from WP Russia. This to comment on merging an article which has nothing to do with paleontology or dinosaurs. If that's not canvassing I don't know what is.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 21:57, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Nothing? Where exactly do you think the majority of fossils in Baltic amber currently comes from? I did not ping WP:Dinosaurs, i am not responsible for editors being members of multiple wikiprojects. and I already noted i contacted the last three people active on the WP:Russia page. I will not respond more here to the assertions you are making--Kevmin § 00:23, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Storm in a teacup... those notifications seem GF. Don't sweat it. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 04:42, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

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Copyvio, IDHT, OWN, 3RR and related disruption by User:JackW436

I am loathe to open this ANI thread - as myself and a half-dozen other editors have bent-over-backward to try and positively assist and resolve. However, a pattern of behaviour needs escalation at this point.

In short, despite repeated attempts by various editors to assist JackW436 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) with project guidelines and norms, he/she continues to engage in COPYVIO, IDHT, OWN, 3RR, contra-consensus, and generally disruptive editing behaviours.

Largely bypassing all the other advisories on the editors talk page (about article ownership, removing cleanup/speedy tags, editing contrary to consensus, editing other's userpages, or changing other's talkpage comments), I will focus on two main issues of concern. Being (1) continued COPYVIO issues, and (2) continued VER/CITE issues. With a side-order of (3) incongruous AGF issues.

1. On COPYVIO, myself ([87] [88]) and other editors ([89]) have advised about the issues with adding copyvio content or images. Despite this, the editor continues to add copyvio content ([90] [other examples since removed from page history - per copyvio process]), and continues with attempts to add copyvio images ([91] [92] [93]).
2. On VER/CITE, a half-dozen editors ([94] [95] [96] [97] [98] [99]) have highlighted VER/CITE issues. Despite this, the editor has continued to add uncited material ([100]) and remove cited material ([101] [102]).
3. On AGF, I would note that the editor has (without a hint of justification) claimed "racist" "discrimination" ([103] [104] [105]). While at the same time (without a hint of irony) discounting other's contributions- on the basis that they are "not from here" ([106]).

While I feel we're perhaps at the point where aspects of IDHT could be considered ("if the community spends more time cleaning up editors' mistakes and educating them about policies and guidelines than it considers necessary, sanctions may have to be imposed"), I'd be delighted with any advice or suggestions that the ANI community might have. For myself I'm out of ideas. And low on patience w/unrequited assistance ([107] [108] [109] [110]).... Guliolopez (talk) 00:41, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Also that is an infuriating typing quirk, putting ()s around their sentences... --Tarage (talk) 06:55, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Responding to your concerns:

1. Yes, they were copyright violations. However, I'm not seeing a recent violation of this policy - not since the end of July.

2. Let's cut him some slack with the manual of style issue. It's an extensive guideline and it's easy for new users to trip up there - I sure did when I was new :-). The recent issues with adding unreferenced content and removing referenced content (1, 2, 3) is concerning - including this.

3. I took that response as trolling more than anything. He was given a message simply discussing the use of ref tags, and responds calling it "racist" (1, 2, 3)? And what's with this response? ...

I think we need to focus on recent edits that have caused repeated disruption despite numerous warnings. Some of these concerns have this; some do not. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:30, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Oshwah for the note and input. In terms of more recent examples of disruptive editing, do you think today's examples would qualify? For example:

• On WP:CON, WP:OWN and WP:WAR - despite consensus-building contributions to the relevant talkpages (by at least 3 contributors [111][112][113]) and specific notes directly to the editor reminding them of that consensus (eg: [114]), and other advisories against IDHT warring,(eg: [115]) he/she has (yet again, and without discussion or response to various requests for engagement) edited against that consensus. And recreated an article. In a way that, yet again, recreates wholly uncited content. That fails the relevant policies on NN, VER, etc. Specifically, here: [116]
• On WP:VER, WP:MOS and other policies - despite inputs and assistance (again from 2 or more contributors [117] [118]) he/she continues to create poorly sourced articles and add un-sourced/ill-formatted content to existing articles. Specifically, here [119]

(And that's even ignoring this type of random, inexplicable and disruptive nonsense on another article. Also today. If someone can explain the value/rationale/relevance of that edit, they have my admiration.)

In any event, like myself, I wonder if Cmr08 and Wasechun tashunka and a half-dozen other editors are perhaps starting to feel a measure of frustration that their attempts to assist, improve and clean-up this editor's contributions are being repeatedly (and recently) overridden, ignored, reverted and disrupted.

Frankly, while of course not on the scale of outright VN/trolling/warring/etc that permeates other ANI threads, if today's edits are not examples of recent and continued disruption (in the "causing more disruption than value" vein that IDHT references), then I'm not sure what is.... Guliolopez (talk) 00:08, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Update. When I originally approached the ANI community it was really just for advice ("what does the community recommend here"). At this point I am overtly advocating sanctions. This position/intent has changed because the pattern of behaviour has gone from "possible good-faith newbie mistakes and exuberance" to something quite different. In short:

• Accidental errors V deliberate errors - While the previous pattern of poor English, punctuation and grammar (of newly added content) might have been attributed to "English as a second language" (good-faith) type considerations, a more recent pattern of overt and deliberate reversions of the corrections of others (on existing content) is not something that can be explained under a good-faith banner.
• Accidental disruption V deliberate disruption - Similarly, a pattern of edits that introduced poorly sourced/formatted edits might have been somewhat excusable (2 months ago), but a pattern of deliberate and unapologetic Vandalism and BLP attacks is not.

In short, I think it is less important for the ANI community to recommend an action. And likely more important to take an action. Guliolopez (talk) 19:47, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I tend to concur. No one is required to even know the MoS and other guidelines and policies exist or what they say before they edit here. But once someone does, the community doesn't permit that person to continue ignoring them or – worse and more to the point – to interfere with other, productive editors complying with them.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  00:20, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I too am becoming weary of JackW436's repeated violations of the MoS and various policies. I have attempted to fix some of his mistakes in order to save the articles he created, and explain to him where he made mistakes, but he completely ignores other editors' input. I am completely in favour of giving new editors a chance to find their feet, especially where their mistakes might be violating seemingly arbitrary rules, but when an editor is told that what he is doing is against the rules and continues to do it, then you just can't work with that. (By the way, he has made it clear that English is his first language) It's mostly the lack of communication and engagement that makes it difficult to work with him. Wasechun tashunka^HOWL_TRACK 16:38, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Update

• I have blocked JackW436 for 31 hours after two attempts in trying to remove this report ([120] [121]). This is a clear case of WP:NOTHERE as a result of WP:CIR in my opinion. Since this has been ongoing for more than a month, a sanction is probably no longer useful in favour of indefinite block. Alex Shih^Talk 08:14, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support indef block as proposed by Alex Shih. Softlavender (talk) 08:23, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support indef There is a serious shortage of competence. Indef them for a variety of alphabet soup. Blackmane (talk) 07:29, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support indef - As proposed by Alex Shih. SophisticatedSwampert ^{let's talk about that} 19:57, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

(As you all may know I am a newcomer and I need a bit more time to get used to Wikipedia) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JackW436 (talk • contribs) 20:33, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

And, as a newcomer, you thought that the way to deal with a complaint about you on an adminsitrators' noticeboard was to attempt to delete it? Is that the equivalent to tearing up a parking ticket, and did that get good results if you tried it? Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:51, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose Indef - There are some good faith edits on County Cork, Ireland — honest work to improve the enyclopedia. We all are entitled to a Mulligan... Carrite (talk) 01:59, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - Yes, to extend the golf metaphor, we are all entitled to a Mulligan. However this player hasn't had one Mulligan. He's had 20. Already. In the same round. Rather than listening to the advice of the others in his party, he called the guy who offered help with his bag racist, derided the advice of another player as the valueless opinion of a foreigner, cried discrimination to the guy who had the gall to mention the rules of the game, and the lady who held the door for him an annoying horrible 'thing'. Back in the clubhouse, when called-out for vandalising the foyer's commemorative plaque, he claimed it was somehow deserved. Meanwhile the course is left unplayable. A very small handful of (accidentally) passable golf strokes cannot excuse this. (In short, a dozen separate editors have attempted to help this contributor. Only to have it thrown back at them. Often with shouty vitriol. 20+ times. A handful of minor or seemingly semi-reasonable edits do not normally meet WP:BMB's expectations of exemption. While not personally advocating an indef/site ban, some form of preventative block would seem appropriate.) Guliolopez (talk) 20:03, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - There were some improvements to Ireland related topics. QuackGuru (talk) 17:23, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support indef - I'm all for giving second, third, fourth chances and had it not been for the thousands of warnings then I would've opposed however they've had various warnings since June 2017 so they've had nearly 3 months to sort their shit out and learn ... instead they've ignored everyone and have carried on regardless, Ofcourse they may make great edits to various articles however that can't be an excuse to ignore repeated warnings, Indef is the only best option and ofcourse Indef is not forever either. –Davey2010^Talk 20:12, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support indef - As per my note above, while I originally opened this thread with a "what do others think/recommend" intent, the pattern of edits have escalated across multiple articles (escalating from accidentally disruptive [annoyance], to deliberately disruptive [vandalism], to outright nonsense). Yesterday, when I asked why he continued to capitalise all words, he claimed it was because I told him to. Which is clearly nonsense. And, either evidence of CIR or trolling. Either way, some form of preventative block would seem to be required. Alex Shih or another uninvolved admin. Can (as this tread has now been archived), can it be actioned/closed? One way or the other? Guliolopez (talk)

Singer Ahmed Rushi's article had serious POV, and Peacocking issues

I am here to request you to spend some of your valuable time to check Ahmed Rushdi's article. That article is about a celebrated Pakistani singer, it had serious POV, and Peacocking issues. I started editing this article from this edit [122] to this edit [123]. And have significant improved it, After checking the articles talk page I came to know that administrator Drmies had previously improved this article according to NPOV policies. But after they stopped editing the article it once again resembled fan site, I request admins and experienced users to save this article in their watchlist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoptimistix (talk • contribs) 23:19, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Malik Shabazz + MShabazz

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See article: American Jews

Over the past week, Malik edit warred (going well beyond the WP:3RR limit) over the inclusion of what appears to be a politically motivated line.

Here is the passage in question: "The overwhelming majority of American Jews view themselves as white."

On the talk page, I argued that it is a WP:REDUNDANT line (since the passage it precedes says the same thing, but in a more neutral tone) and serves no real purpose other than to enforce a "point" about Jews. The hostile, accusatory nature of his responses, especially his justification for restoring the aforementioned passage*, only reinforce my concerns.

• "since you and your friend are still peddling the "Jews aren't white" line, it's very necessary"

In other words, he feels it is necessary not because it improves the article (it doesn't), but because I mentioned in passing, on another talk page, that I don't share his views on this topic. Therefore, I (and my "friend", whoever that is) must be brought into line.

The diffs can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=American_Jews&action=history The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 14:16, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

The Human Trumpet Solo, content disputes (which is what this is) are resolved via discussion on the article's talk page (which seems to be already going on [124]), and if necessary, via starting a neutral and briefly worded WP:RFC. Edit warring is dealt with via warning the user on their talkpage (see WP:WARN), and then if necessary reporting to WP:ANEW. ANI is not the appropriate venue to resolve this simple content dispute. Softlavender (talk) 14:48, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Even if you do take it to another board, you'll have to help us out a bit better than that. I see one revert on 22 August, three reverts on 29 August and one on 30 August. You're going to have to explain to me how that's a 3RR violation. You yourself arguably hit 5RR ([125] [126] [127] [128] [129]). Alright, the first one is perhaps arguable as you're reverting recent edits in the course of more substantial edits and the last one you self-reverted - but I'd advise you to go careful. GoldenRing (talk) 17:16, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't see that it's at all clear Mailk Shabazz is saying they're doing this because of something you or anyone said elsewhere. There seems to be an active dispute about much more than this simple line e.g. [130]. It seems likely that Malik Shabazz is saying 'because this content is still there and I feel it is unnecessary or misleading, I think we need the additional line to help prevent any misconceptions people may receive from reading our article with the othe disputed content'. In other words they feel the content is improving the encyclopaedia. It may be that consensus is against the line that Malik Shabazz wants to keep even if there is consensus to keep the other content. It may be that consensus is against the content that Malik Shabazz feels is a problem and so the line they're trying to keep is no longer needed. (Of course it may be that it's felt that the line should stay while the other content goes.) It may be that consensus is actually that all of this or other rewordings is necessary to clarify the situation and avoid people being mislead. As mentioned by others, such issues should be resolved via normal means of dispute resolution which don't involve ANI. Nil Einne (talk) 19:18, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I thought it would be easier to link to the revision history (where everybody can see what's going on) rather than provide each diff manually. I asked Malik to explain his actions on the talk page, but he never did. Instead, he accused me of "POV pushing" and lying about what the sources said, even though I quoted from the source directly. This response, compounded with his apparent justification for the line ("since you and your friend are still peddling the "Jews aren't white" line, it's very necessary"), indicates that he is allowing his own personal views on the subject to prevent him from maintaining a neutral point of view, and that is a problem.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 23:12, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

The Human Trumpet Solo, you still don't get it. This is a simple content dispute, which must be discussed dispassionately and neutrally on the article's talkpage. Do not personalize things, just contribute to the discussions on the article's talkpage until a WP:CONSENSUS is clear. If no consensus becomes clear, then create an WP:RFC with a brief neutral question (i.e., "Should the text ________ appear in this article?". You are not always going to get your way on Wikipedia, no matter what you think or believe others' motivations are, because Wikipedia is a collaborative process and is run by consensus. Softlavender (talk) 11:29, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

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Massive sea of red

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This edit is problematic. I discussed it on Speednat (talk · contribs)'s talk page and he returned to discuss it at mine. I'm not going to edit war over this, but the key is that these musicians and technicians are not likely to ever have an article as s the guidance at the MoS, specifically WP:REDNOT. I took it to mediation, but that was rejected because it was associated with editor behaviour.

What I'm seeking is

1. an updated to the redlink guideline to make it more clear, up-front, not to add red links if the articles have little or no chance of becoming an article.
2. an uninvolved editor to review the edits added to these entries and decide if they should be kept or removed:
   2. Nirva Dorsaint as Mama Mary
   3. Matt Hammit of Sanctus Real as blind cripple
   4. Donnie Lewis as Jairus' wife
   5. Bob Farrell as Governor Pilate
   6. John Grey as Preacher Rabbi at the wedding
   7. Nathaniel Lee as Janitor Angel
   8. Todd Collins – percussion
   9. Jason Eskridge – background vocals
   10. Kim Fleming – choir
   11. Brad Ford – vocals, assistant executive producer
   12. Robert Gay – children's chorus
   13. Rachel Goldstein – choir
   14. Kirk "Jelly Roll" Johnson – harmonica
   15. Tony Lucido – bass guitar
   16. Rick May – drums
   17. Antonio Phelon – choir, background vocals
   18. John Ray – choir
   19. Becky Robertson – children's chorus
   20. Joanna Robertson – children's chorus
   21. Thomas Romines – choir
   22. Pete Stewart – acoustic guitar, electric guitar, bass, piano, electric piano (all of these links are common terms and against WP:OVERLINK and the MoS for albums)
   23. Greg Thomas – choir
   24. Patti Thomas – choir
   25. Michelle Valentine – choir
   26. Paul Wright III
   27. Carl Marsh – Fairlight, string arrangement
   28. Bethany Newman – art director, design
   29. Marcelo Pennell – audio engineer
   30. Carter Robertson – choir director
   31. Dan Shike – mastering

Ironically, Eddie DeGarmo is the only one that has a reasonable change of becoming a blue link. He was a member of a notable band, DeGarmo and Key, a solo artist with two albums and the executive or a major Christian record label (ForeFront Records), yet, no red link for him.

There are other issues with the edit: adding references in headings, but at least the MOS:CAPS violations have been addressed. I'm not sure why @TransporterMan: suggested that I come here, but I'm happy to discuss this anywhere. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:29, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

That's not quite correct. I did not recommend that you come here. I rejected the mediation request because you framed it as a conduct dispute and MEDCOM does not accept conduct disputes. I only said that if you wish to pursue this as a conduct dispute then this is the place to do it. That was merely a neutral statement of procedure, not a recommendation. Now that you've come here, you've framed the dispute as a content dispute and it will almost certainly be rejected here as well because ANI doesn't handle content disputes just like MEDCOM doesn't handle conduct disputes. So let me actually make a recommendation: If this is closed as a content dispute, then the two places where you can get an independent review of those edits is either Third Opinion, so long as only exactly two editors are involved, or through a Request for comments. You might be able to obtain that evaluation at Dispute Resolution Noticeboard as well, since DRN — unlike MEDCOM — does not strictly do mediation, but mediation is mostly what they do and mediation isn't about evaluating and rendering opinions, it's about facilitating discussion between the parties with a view towards achieving consensus between them. You can, however, get that kind of evaluation through 3O and RFC. As for any reform of REDLINK, you need to follow PROPOSAL, PGCHANGE, and WP:PGBOLD to do that (and, again, that's not a recommendation that you do it, it's just the way to do it if you care to do so). Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:10, 1 September 2017 (UTC) PS: And let me now acknowledge that you have, indeed, started a proposal at the REDLINK talk page. — TransporterMan (TALK) 18:56, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I am the aforementioned editor and am responding as such.

• First: The original edit is This edit, and I only point that out because it is misleading to use his diff. His diff shows that I added a bunch of wikilink brackets to already existing content, whereas what really happened was that I substantially expanded a page in need of work and in doing so added some red-links.
• Second: concerning the redlinks, I did point him to the MOS on redlinks and as such tried explaining the benefit of red-links and the when and why to not use them as in if no plausible need for a new page.
• Third: in his last conversation on my talk page he all but states the "supposed" lack of experience on my part as in "I understand what the guideline currently states. It is years old and the current feeling among experienced editors is that it has to change. Feel free to add the redlinks. Be prepared for me to place a Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. In one of your recent edits, you added links to an article which did not add content or meaning, or repeated the same link several times throughout the article. Please see Wikipedia's guideline on links to avoid overlinking. Thank you. template on your talk page, and for a discussion to start to finally get this reversed with the article you're working on as the example of what the problem is. It will make an excellent example." All I would suggest and I would have done this on his talk page but he never gave me a chance was that if certain people were not notable enough for their own pages then work through the list and I have no issue. I just did not like his blanket delete every single redlink that I had created
• Fourth, wikilinking certain musical instruments "once per instrument" for the entire credits section is also acceptable per Wikiproject:albums i believe. As I stated to him... HE and I might have no need to look up a piano, or bass guitar, but then again maybe I would and many people would.
• Finally, concerning the MOS:CAPS and the heading issue, I will admit that I am a far from perfect editor, but when Walter reverts he probably should utilize the edit summary and explain things or at the very least talk about it on my talk page, but revert with no comments doesn't sit well with me. I shouldn't have to spend my time trying to logic out why he reverted as in whether it was MOS or viewpoint, or Ownership issues. And WP:Linking just sends me to a page that is a little broad.

So in a nutshell, no issues with the final version as in Caps, heading his way (I was wrong and I, like most editors, need to have their memories refreshed in a polite and open manner). Red-links: good as is until and unless certain people are not notable and the onus, it seems would be on the editor wanting to de-redlink them. I would appreciate a little more openness and desire to listen as well as be heard, and finally to not be treated as an inexperienced editor with 5 edits under my belt. Thank you speednat (talk) 19:03, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

No, the onus is not on the editor removing the redlink. The MoS is clear. Please explain your understanding of WP:REDNOT, specifically the line, "do not create red links to articles that are not likely to be created and retained in Wikipedia", if you disagree. The onus is on you to show that they will be notable in the near future. Considering they've had 13 years (to date) to become notable, it's highly unlikely that the redlinks will become blue. And the issue is not the helpful edits you made, it's the ones where you refuse to follow guidelines and instead essentually told me that you were right and I was wrong, when in fact, you're ignoring a key part of the MoS. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:12, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Niteshift 36

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I was on recent edit patrol, I saw this edit regarding allegations of edit warring. Didn't look into it, but it appeared to be a violation of talk page policy.. The userresponded with a personal attack and then a second one. I'll leave this to you. South Nashua (talk) 18:12, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Another personal attack after altering the editor to their confrontational behavior. South Nashua (talk) 18:16, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

• As I explained to this editor [131], he is using the wrong guideline. He is using the ARTICLE guidelines, not the User page guideline. My first "personal attack" was "Don't restore anything I delete from my talk page. I can remove anything I like. Don't vandalize my page again". The second "personal attack" was "My edit summaries suggest otherwise? That doesn't even make sense. Dude, I'm telling you to stop restoring content to my talk page. Take that to AN and see what you learn". So, to recap: An editor comes to my talk page, applies the wrong guideline, refuses to realize this and then comes here to make two allegations about "personal attacks" that didn't happen. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:22, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

• First, users are allowed to remove things from their own talk pages. Second, you (South Nashua) need to learn what a "personal attack" is; except for the inaccurate (but I suppose understandable) use of "vandalize" once, this isn't a "personal attack", it is "explaining that you are incorrect". I assume this is all that needs to be said and this can be archived? --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:29, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Actually, one more thing. Don't report something to ANI if you "didn't look into it". --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:30, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
    • That's fine. He seemed volatile. Just trying to help. Sorry for the improper procedure, haven't posted here before. South Nashua (talk) 18:32, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

• "He seemed volatile" and you applying the wrong guidelines and refusing to read the correct ones will make things more calm? Niteshift36 (talk) 18:35, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
• Truth be told, I worry more about someone on edit patrol with that shaky a command of the appropriate guidelines and definitions than I am over South Nashua's putative "volatility." Ravenswing 20:40, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

• I think you mean Niteshift36's putative "volatility", but I agree. @South Nashua: I don't think you should be doing recent changes patrol. You don't understand policy, refuse to back down when editors explain the specific policy to you, and wildly misinterpret comments as personal attacks. Just stay away from Niteshift36, and, preferably, don't patrol any more recent edits until you get a mentor. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:22, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Immediate Attention Required - Main Page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There is a case of severe vandalism on the Main Page in the Featured Article section. Clicking the bolded link to the "Steller's sea cow" article returns a series of lude pictures. Ergo Sum 02:34, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A lude picture

–EEng

Another lude picture (ultra-ultra-closeup)

An edit filter that can flag image changes/additions in articles on the main page would be a fine thing that would cut down on this kind of vandalism. Acroterion (talk) 02:41, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, something needs to be done to prevent this. Pages linked from the mainpage could also be auto-semi protected, but that would just seem weird for the encyclopedia that "anyone can edit" to have all featured pages uneditable. Home Lander (talk) 02:55, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

I think the suggestion is to give special scrutiny to the addition or substitution of images to an article for the duration of its main page appearance, since images are a particularly potent way of giving offense; at the same time, the kind of novice editor we might want to attract via the "anyone can edit" route is very unlikely to know how to select and add an image anyway. EEng 03:00, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Edit filter managers are welcome to contact me via email - I have some suggestions about how a useful filter might be constructed to deal with this that I'd rather not share on-wiki. I myself am not proficient with regex. Acroterion (talk) 03:01, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

• For the record the best place to report main-page "emergencies" is Wikipedia:Main_Page/Errors (it's Main Page errors on the first line of links in the blue box at the top of this page). EEng 03:09, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

With all due respect to the people who work there, that is definitely not the best place to report this type of vandalism. Here is the best place, after it's been reported to WP:AIV. If anyone's interested, there's some range blocks lined up at User_talk:Zzuuzz#Rangeblock_request. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 03:25, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Well now that I think about it, we might distinguish two levels of main-page trouble. Non-offensive errors (grammar problems, typos, etc.) should go to WP:ERRORS; offensive "emergencies" should perhaps be posted there, here, and at AIV simultaneously, for fastest response. EEng 03:36, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

I know a large proportion of the community may be opposed to protection in principle, but perhaps pending changes protection would be a good middle ground between retaining the "everyone can edit" philosophy and actual practicality. Darylgolden^(talk) Ping when replying 08:13, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to apply pre-emptive protections to main-page articles, but given the vulnerability of such articles to image vandalism some form of edit filter that prevents image changes by non-autoconfirmed accounts to main-page articles may be necessary. Acroterion (talk) 01:39, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Unjustified reverting by User:Jytdog

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I now think this is much more to do with user conduct than a specific article, so I'll just base my description of the situation around what I put on Talk:Neal D. Barnard when I hoped to get more people to notice what was going on.

On August 20, I made this edit which consisted of mostly cosmetic improvements - in the infobox, I capitalized the first letter of the occupation, I added the birth and date template to the existing date of birth and put the date of birth from the infobox to the body of the article, I moved the individual's place of work to the title section, as suggested in the guidelines, I created the sections Bibliography and Filmography as per the MOS to give more visibility to some of the works that were already in the article, I removed the link to the doctor's website because it was a redirect.

I also added some new informon that I believed was not questionable at all - the city of birth which could be found at his organization's website, two more films he's been in, some of the books he's written, and the fact that the person was vegan. I saw a video where he said the latter but I wasn't sure if it would be a great source, so I didn't back it up and instead added the article to my watch list, so that I would find a better source if anyone had questioned it.

Minutes after that, the edit was fully reverted by Alexbrn (talk · contribs). As WP:ROWN reasonably says, this can be disruptive because it does nothing to improve the article. Instead of removing or asking for references for the things that were questionable, all of the cosmetic changes were removed as well. There were no attempts to point at the parts that were questionable, and keep the cosmetic ones. Less than 7 hours after the initial edit, I added a source to back up Barnard's veganism, making the entirety of my small contributions hard to question.

Jytdog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appeared (the user has a long history of showing up whenever Alexbrn needs to be backed up; maybe there's a technical way to see how often they cross paths on Wikipedia) and made a full revert as well. After I explained my edits on the talk page and made a different edit that contained the same cosmetic improvements and a source for Barnard's place of birth, Jytdog fully reverted that and accused me of adding the individual's unsourced date of birth to the article, even though it was there before I made the first edit. The city of birth was still not in the article after 21 more edits by Jytdog. Just recently, days after the first edits took place, a user moved parts of the content from the lengthy lede to a new "Early life" section, as seen in most good Wikipedia articles, and Jytdog reverted that as well, claiming it added no value.

Jytdog appears to have been briefly blocked from editing Wikipedia 3 times, and although I don't think all of their edits are disruptive and have little to no value, it's impossible to improve something when they revert every edit, be it sourced or cosmetic. --Rose (talk) 11:45, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Possible topic ban violation: Looking at the details of their block history just now, I also noticed that the user is topic banned "from all matters related to COI editing. This includes investigations and allegations against other editors, and edits to the COIN noticeboard and its talk page", yet just days ago they were asking a user if they "had anything to disclose per PAID or COI". I don't know the full story behind that ban, so I'll just leave the information here. --Rose (talk) 11:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Advice: (1) Always precisely describe everything you have done in each edit via the edit summary. (2) Don't do more than one thing/task in each edit; you will be less likely to be reverted if you only make one change per edit, and clearly describe what change you have made and why. (3) Make sure any text you add is cited. (4) Don't file an WP:RFC before whatever is being debated has been thoroughly and civilly discussed on the talk page for several days without resolution. (5) If you ever do file an RfC, it must fully comply with WP:RFC; yours most certainly did not [132] and I have removed the template and the RfC label. Softlavender (talk) 11:59, 25 August 2017 (UTC); edited 13:37, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• In terms of Jytdog, his topic ban on COI concerns was lifted long ago. In terms of meatpuppetry, if you want an editor interaction analysis between Jytdog and Alexbrn, here is the tool: [133]; I have filled it out: [134]. -- Softlavender (talk) 12:06, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

1. The nutshell at WP:V includes: "...any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by inline citations." The birthdate was challenged, so you were required to provide a citation. What was there before is not relevant. 2. We don't use RfC for such relatively minor stuff. 3. When we use RfC, we don't frame it as "Hey community, we're having this content dispute, here's a blow-by-blow account of what has happened, can you come help us sort this out?" We ask a specific, concise question or make a specific, concise proposal, and "What do you think of my edits?" is neither. Maybe the words "request for comment" are a little misleading when taken alone and at face value, but this is clearly explained at WP:RFC. 4. When there is very little editor participation at an article, it's usually an indication that it's not a very important article in the larger scheme. For me, that makes it easier to let the little stuff go and move on, to let the other guy have his way if it's that important to him. Given that it was two editors against you, and given their combined experience level, I would have moved on even if they failed to fully engage in article talk. To check out a user's experience level, click "Edit count" at the bottom of their contribs page and wait a minute. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:58, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

How is it challenging a birth date when a user fully reverts edits containing multiple cosmetic improvements, none of which introduces a birth date? How do you explain Jytdog's summary for reverting this edit I made: "Stop adding unsourced content to this BLP. just stop."? Which part did I add that's not sourced? --Rose (talk) 13:32, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not saying you were in the wrong on every point there. But you were clearly in the wrong on a couple of important points, and, in this particular set of circumstances, the rest is just not egregious enough to request admin action in an ANI complaint. Far, far (did I say far?) worse regularly gets no action here. I know it can be frustrating and stressful, welcome to Wikipedia editing. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:48, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Suggestion Make the non controversial changes and bring the controversial bits to the talk page with good references. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:59, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree. I don't see that this needed to be brought to ANI. I have worked with Jytdog numerous times, and he is always willing to listen if you bring a matter to the talk page and make your case. If it's a wording matter, make your case with good sources, especially high-quality sources, and he will listen. If it's a sourcing matter, the same thing applies -- good sources, especially high-quality sources. He has a low zero tolerance for promotion and low tolerance for poor sources, and is always looking to improve the overall article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:31, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Then again, how do you explain the removal of the added "Early life" section or the place of birth that was sourced, among other things? Since Jytdog appeared, there's not been a single addition containing unsourced content, yet the reverts took place. Why is this okay and what's to stop Jytdog from doing the same thing for every next edit that's not made by someone they know to be sharing views with? --Rose (talk) 21:28, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Nobody removed an "Early Life" section. All that was reverted was the addition of a heading, "Early life and career", which split the article into a one sentence lead, and seven very brief paragraphs covering the entire rest of the article entitled "Early life and career". That sort of edit adds no worth to a short, stubby article. Of course we should start to organise articles into sections as they grow, but that isn't needed yet.

This is a content dispute. Now that you're in dispute, you need to go back to the talk page armed with good quality sources and suggest content that you want to add. Do it that way round and you'll find it much easier to make improvements that will stick. --RexxS (talk) 23:23, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• BloodyRose, It's understandable that you would be upset at repeated reverts of your changes. We all get that. At the same time, with only 680 edits to your name, you are still quite an inexperienced editor and not yet caught up with how Wikipedia optimally works -- leaving edit summaries, discussing neutrally and civilly on article talk pages, editing collaboratively, etc. You've been given a lot of good advice in this thread. Please take it to heart and go forward collaboratively and address other editors neutrally and in the spirit of collaboration. Softlavender (talk) 04:15, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
• Agreed with the above advice – all of it. However, mass-reverting is pretty much the worst tool we have in most situations. Use of it generally has an effect on the receiving end that is somewhere on the intense frustration to complete enragement spectrum, because it's disrespectful of the other's input and time. It takes far less effort and editorial time to pick through some mixed edits and only undo the questionable or bad ones than it does to engage in a protracted inter-editor dispute, especially one that ropes in more and more people as it escalates.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:34, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

The OP made mass unexplained changes in one single edit, with no edit summary [135]. There was arguably no way beyond tedious analysis for subsequent editors to deal with the problematic portion of those mass unexplained changes except to revert. Softlavender (talk) 05:02, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Looking at this from a COI perspective, it turns out this issue was discussed in 2016 at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive249#Neal_D._Barnard. That was finished and archived, but article problems continue. There's been occasional editing trouble since 2007. The article subject is a medical figure who takes positions which some claim verge on quackery. Hence the controversy. There may be COI, there may be WP:FRINGE issues, and there may be iffy editor behavior. This is really a content dispute which needs medical input. There are medical claims which have been in and out of the article. Compare this older version: [136] It's important that Wikipedia get medical info reasonably right. I'd suggest sending this task to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine. Thanks. John Nagle (talk) 07:06, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, using good medical sources for medical claims is something we are always concerned about at WP:Med. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:09, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

As for mass reverting, I probably would not have done that, but I have done it with the intention to restore any valid content afterward. So has Jytdog. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:12, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Unsourced additions at Elmer Jamias; paid COI editor involved

This article began as a draft from an acknowledged paid COI editor, Rearm21, who admitted that they got the draft text from Elmer Jamias himself (Rearm21 said Jamias is their boss and that he instructed them to create a Wikipedia article about him). I informed Rearm21 of WP:V and WP:BLP (and WP:COI and WP:PAID) and made sure they understood that only material which they or I could find WP:RSs for would be able to be included in the article. I found what I considered to be adequate sources to support WP:N and built the article with Rearm21's assistance. When the sources ran dry, I let Rearm21 know that the information in the draft which we couldn't find sources for could not be included in the Wikipedia article, and I thought that would be the end of it.

A week ago, a new account, Miracle223, created their user sandbox with a version of the Elmer Jamias article virtually identical to the original draft Rearm21 had said came from Mr. Jamias. (I noticed this when I checked the contributions of the user who had made this edit which removed sourced but unflattering information about Mr. Jamias.) I left a message on Miracle223's talk page letting them know that they should read and comply with WP:COI, WP:PAID, WP:BLP, etc. but to date have received no response.

A day and a half ago, an IP user, 202.90.136.142, began adding some of the same unsourced material to the Elmer Jamias article. I have reverted these additions twice now, and don't want to fall afoul of WP:3RR. (I also left a message on the IP's talk page. Meanwhile, Rearm21 has begun editing the article again, despite my having told them that it would be more appropriate to propose changes on the article's talk page; I make no assertions about the identity of the IP editor but I think the recent edit history of the article speaks for itself, specifically the edits up to and including 03:20, 30 August 2017 and the edits beginning 03:39, 30 August 2017‎.

I am frustrated with this situation, because I collaborated on the article in good faith to help a COI editor comply with our policies in such a way that the topic they chose could have a Wikipedia article. (This is not the first time I have helped a COI editor with an article whose subject I found to be actually notable; that's one of the things I do here.) I can't (and shouldn't) be the only editor watching the article and guarding against these inappropriate additions, though. I'm aware that it may seem like this is a WP:OWN situation on my part, but I have no objections to properly-sourced material being added to this BLP — only unsourced (or improperly-sourced) material or other policy violations. (For anyone who thinks the solution is to delete and salt the article, I don't think that's appropriate as the subject does meet WP:GNG.) Thanks in advance for your help. —GrammarFascist _contribs^talk 00:46, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

@GrammarFascist: Thank you for your work. I remember seeing this come up repeatedly at the teahouse. I have semi-protected the page for a week, and I think it's safe to block these two accounts for socking/editing while logged off based on strong behavioral evidence. Alex Shih^Talk 03:07, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Alex Shih, thank you. Hopefully seeing consequences to their misbehavior will get through to the person or people who have been editing on Mr. Jamias's behalf, and/or Mr. Jamias himself if he has been putting undue pressure on employees to violate WP policies... well, I'm an optimist, what can I say? —GrammarFascist _contribs^talk 03:23, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Reporting a User for Abusing their 500/30 For Their Bias - User: Bolter21

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I would like to report a user User:Bolter21.

Please check the user's Wikipedia History. He is editing anything with the name "State of Palestine" or "Palestine" and is replacing it with "Palestinian territories" in order to de-legitimize it. Palestine is recognized by 136 countries as shown here which is obviously more than a majority of countries. In his talk here about Palestine, he ends off his sentence with "Regardless of what you have to say, "State of Palestine" is completely unacceptable" which basically shuts off any discussion as the user does not wish to accept.

The user clearly resides in Israel and it looks like, by their edit history, that just because Israel does not recognize Palestine, that doesnt mean majority of the world does not recognize Palestine. Back to the talk page, he even tries to say that even if 193 countries recognize Palestine, it still "does not exist". He is seriously violating Wikipedia's rule on Point of View. This is not the first time this user has gotten into fights or edit wars, there are many such as here, here, here, here, here (This shows his POV side instead of staying neutral on the political party Fatah), here, and alot more.

Ohh yea, and then apparently anything that is in favor of Palestine, even if its correct, is POV, and another member also tells him this by "not feeding the trolls" here. Not to mention this "very professional" response to an edit he replies here.

I would like the moderators to investigate this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThisIsAgain32 (talk • contribs) 08:05, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Feel free to report me, but be aware I am here only for the weekends. Anyway, I gave plenty of source-based-explanations for my edits. It is quite stupid to report me without mentioning them, let alone the fact the reported hasn't engaged in any discussion with me before reporting. The admin who will waste his time on this matter can go to the relevent talk pages and read my reasoning but generally my main argument was that, by fact, the State of Palestine doesn't exist. the "establishment of a free and independent State of Palestine". If a state needs to be established, it doesn't exist. I hope this will go back to the relevent talkpages without wasting the admins' time, since this is no more than a content dispute.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 08:24, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

@Bolter21:

"Anyway, I gave plenty of source-based-explanations for my edits. ", Really? Because after I just showed the links. They dont seem like it. In fact you literally swore at a member and was not civil or did you skip that in my statement?

"Feel free to report me, but be aware I am here only for the weekends." Ahh okay so according to you, breaking rules are okay on weekends. Got it.

"The admin who will waste his time on this matter" No, admins dont 'waste their time here', they check over people who get reported.

"main argument was that, by fact, the State of Palestine doesn't exist." Which you are WRONG. Majority of countries and even the UN are against your point. Deny all you want but its a real place. Im sure they didnt teach you that in military.

"If you want a quick proof, look at the fact the "President of the State of Palestine" called for..." - The magic word is INDEPENDENT. Crimea is owned by Ukraine but occupied by Russia just like how Palestine is a country but has alot of illegal Israeli settlements. Of course, you can go ahead and tell me what the military said but that does not change anything.

"I hope this will go back to the relevent talkpages without wasting the admins' time, since this is no more than a content dispute." - Backing out i see? You are good at that.

I am not going to argue with you on content disputes in the Administrators' noticeboard. If you want, move that discussion to my talkpage or to the relevent article's talkpage and please don't make it a WP:FORUM.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 08:37, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Actually I am just going to go straight in with a request for a topic ban from the IP area for Bolter here. Anyone who seriously argues the State of Palestine does not exist cannot be allowed to edit in the IP area. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:06, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

  Only in death and Godric on Leave: Feel free to read this article and this article and understand that my edits and views are not based on mere POV. In my opinion the State of Palestine doesn't exist, but it is indeed a subject of debate. While this is all nice and good, when a state's existence can't be confirmed, Wikipedia cannot claim that a university is located in that state. I understand the problems you see with my edits and I will respect your reverts and comments, as I will not break the wiki's policies to prevent a discussion. If you have a problem with my edits, revert all of them, but instead of demanding a topic-ban with a poorly-written reason, debate, bring sources, offer solutions and help the project. I keep believing in my way, as I see that even the less controversial edits I make, like this one, which claims the State of Palestine, whether it exists or not, administrates anything, are being reverted, so I know that while you claim I push a POV, it is clear that the other side is no better, and the best way to solve that, is with discussion.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:20, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• In general Bolter21 is a good editor, and this report is quite poorly presented, so it pains me to say that the complaint has merit. Bolter21's attitude to this issue is one of pure arrogance. He knows perfectly well that sources differ on the question of what the "State of Palestine" is, but as far as he is concerned "only a dishonest person, an ignorant, or an innocent reader of Wikipeida would think that, yes, there is an actual state called Palestine, that exists at this very moment" [137] That is, Bolter21 knows best, everyone else knows nothing, we must all do what Bolter21 wants. Bolter21 has to be taught that collaborative editing doesn't work like that. I propose an indefinite topic-ban on the concept of "State of Palestine". I'm expressing that as narrowly as possible because, with this inexplicable exception, Bolter21 is capable of excellent contributions. Zero^talk 09:37, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I have been editing about this topic for almost three years now and while my attitude has changed a lot, my opinion on the matter hasn't changed a bit. I was yet to be presented with a proof that the State of Palestine exist beyond the papers. If a state hasn't yet been established, a university cannot be located in this state, and a state with no government, cannot administrate cities. Since late 2012, when a the UN accepted the PLO under the name "State of Palestine" as a "non-member observer state", a handfull of users has stuck the term "State of Palestine" every where, to the point of replacing the original terms "Palestinian Territories" for the land and "Palestinian Authority" for the government, with "State of Palestine", while completely ignoring the reality expressed by the hundreds and thousands of sources out there, who were not influenced by that insiginificant symbolic event. This topic was handled poorly throughout the years, with democratic polls and rush to ANIs. I am far from the only one supporting my edits. Suggesting a topic-ban after two broken discussions is not going to solve anything. Handle it in the relevent talk pages rather than going to ANIs. Last time I said such thing, people tried to ban me from Wikipedia, but I will remain stubborn on this matter, as long as the State of Palestine is not existing de-facto. My edits are no more POV pushing than the edits of the other side, which happens to have far more supporters in Wikipedia.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 10:02, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Just a comment, absent from my admin tools right now, on the following:

  "...The admin who will waste his time on this matter can go to the relevent talk pages and read my reasoning but generally my main argument was that, by fact, the State of Palestine doesn't exist. the "establishment of a free and independent State of Palestine". If a state needs to be established, it doesn't exist...." (my emphasis).

  I'm really quite disturbed by an editor who sees "the State of Palestine" and "a free and independent State of Palestine" (my emphasis) as being synonymous. To reduce to simplicity, the absence of a red balloon does not imply the absence of a balloon. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:35, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

  I'll be happy to discuss that with you on relevent talkpages.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:20, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Bring a T-ban:--Per Only in death.Incompetent editing in a narrow area.Winged Blades of Godric^{On leave} 10:50, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
• Boomerang Why is an editor with fewer than 500 edits -- who is obviously aware of WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 -- editing articles about Israel, Palestine, and the status of Jerusalem? — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 12:10, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Speaking of WP:ARBPIA3#500/30, the complainant shouldn't have been allowed to start this discussion per WP:ARBPIA3#500/30. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 12:33, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
    • If you think 500/30 prohibits editors who have not reached the threshold from reporting problems in the area at a relevant noticeboard, you are sadly mistaken. If a complaint has merit, it is not ignored because the filing editor has not reached a specified edit-count. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:39, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
      • Absolutely. A valid concern is a valid concern. Shame on you, MShabazz, for trying to "wikilawyer" it away. You're usually better than that. -- Begoon 12:51, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
        • The shaming isn't necessary, Begoon. Cjhard (talk) 13:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Nothing in WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 prohibits any editor from filing a complaint at ANI. Softlavender (talk) 12:44, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support topic ban on I-P areas for Bolter21. Softlavender (talk) 12:21, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support topic ban per OID. Agree with "Anyone who seriously argues the State of Palestine does not exist cannot be allowed to edit in the IP area." That should be a "no-brainer". -- Begoon 12:43, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
• Comment: The I/P area is a large area, suggesting a topic ban for a content dispute in a very spesific topic in that area seems radical to me. And still the users have not elaborated really on why should I be topic banned. OID said that becuase I think the State of Palestine doesn't exist? Becuase this claim is supported by sources. The user who filed the complaint , The new user who filed the complaint seems to have something personal against me as he made some sarcastic comments on my military service and began investigating my talkpage archives searching for every single confrontation I had since early 2016. It should be noted that I was put under mentorship of Irondome in April 2016 so most of the links before that are not relevent anymore and most of these 2016 allegations on POV pushing or 1RR violations were either solved or wrong.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:06, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Its a non-argument. The only countries that deny Palestinian statehood are Israel and its allies. Even the UK which has not 'officially' recognized it as a state, recognizes it as a state observer in the UN and has passed non-binding motions in parliament endorsing its statehood. Past experience shows that anyone who starts editing the IP area to deny/remove Palestinian statehood is either a)Israeli, b)pushing the Israel POV. Its a completely time-wasting exercise to engage with such people as they do not accept Palestine as a state, it causes almost instant edit-wars, its pretty much basic trolling. And frankly if you cant see why attempting to remove Palestinian statehood is a *massive* issue, this is a WP:CIR issue. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:18, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

It seems that you refuse to accept any opinion other than your's, even when presented with a source. Maybe you should be topic-banned? So far, we have been discussing about content, and not actual reason why should be banned from creating things such as the "1948 war" section in the "Katamon" article, or the "End of the first phase" in the "1948 Arab–Israeli War" article and other expansions I made in the I/P area. Can you give me a valid reason why I should be banned from writing on the 1948 war, the Palestinian local elections, 2017 or Palestinian workers in Israel, both articles I've created?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:31, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

And let me note that I do not deny the broad recognition Palestine has, but the recognition is interpreted in different ways. In 2014, France's foreign minister said France will not recognize Palestine as long as it is not more than a "symbolic gesture.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:35, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Only as a comment, it would seem that we should have some page related to P/I that asserts how WP writes/treats Palestine (without any other context, and if not otherwise clearly specified by sources) and expects all editors to follow that. It seems from the above that we generally respect that Palestine is treated as a nation-state, but I don't follow the area enough to know if this is a truism. --MASEM (t) 13:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• We have a number of articles in various places (State of Palestine, Sovereign state, List of states with limited recognition) that go into it in detail. The State of Palestine has de jure recognition from pretty much everyone (including the UN) of importance except Israel and its closest allies - a lot of whom abstained rather than opposed in the last major recognition vote. It exerts de facto authority/control over portions of the territory claimed by the State of Palestine, with the remainder still under the control/occupation of Israel. So any claim that it is not a state is largely spurious at this point, and is a giant red flag when someone starts altering multiple articles to reduce/remove mention of statehood. The 'its still disputed' argument is posturing. So while on articles which *describe* the dispute (or historical etc), explaining the lack of statehood may be appropriate, or using the relevant descriptors at that point. The current international recognition however is clearly that it exists as a state. What is guaranteed to piss a lot of people off and be completely disruptive to collaborative editing in possibly the most contentious editing area we have, is going round a bunch of IP articles altering the wording claiming its not a recognized state. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:07, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support topic ban per Only in death's points above: [138] Cjhard (talk) 14:02, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

OIC explained why he thinks I am wrong, but not why I should be topic banned.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 14:56, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I concur with Zero's judgement. Bolter is a promising editor. Bolter works hard, he casts a wide net for sources and is collegial. The pattern of serial reverting of some phrasing or sourcing is serious. But in the I/P zone the basic problem is it is plagued by sit-around and revert editors, with no constructive work in their record. There are numerous editors who keep erasing sources that have never been dismissed as unusable at the RSN board. His views may well be diametrically opposed to my own, but precisely for that reason, I think I can say with some insight, since we have worked collaboratively together, that harsh measures are inappropriate. Therefore, please ease up on proposals for a general I/P ban, and, as Zero suggests, just give him a 'no-go' ban for the topic in question, 'State of Palestine'. Shabazz may be technically wrong, but seeing an I/P breaking an ARBPIA rule, and then trying to get a lad like Bolter punished is ugly.Nishidani (talk) 16:27, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

What WP:ARBPIA rule is the IP breaking? Softlavender (talk) 16:54, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

WP:ARBPIA3#500/30. 'All IP editors, accounts with fewer than 500 edits, and accounts with less than 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.'

I can't see he has qualified in those terms. Yet as malik observed he is editing in the area proscribed:here,here andhere.Nishidani (talk) 17:12, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Not only that, but the decision has an exemption to allow ineligible editors to use the talk pages to discuss such articles but says "This exception does not apply to other internal project discussions such as AfDs, WikiProjects, noticeboard discussions, etc." So shame on you, Begoon, for writing without knowing what you're talking about. I don't know you, but I assume you're usually better than that. And you, too are mistaken, Softlavender. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:51, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

OK, I missed the text that reads "This exception does not apply to other internal project discussions such as AfDs, WikiProjects, noticeboard discussions, etc.", but it is unclear what "this exception" refers to: the preceding sentence, or the sentence before that one? That certainly needs to be re-worded for clarity. Softlavender (talk) 03:48, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

• Concur with Nishidani. A complete I/P TB isn't needed, just one on this very narrow subject. Black Kite (talk) 16:35, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
• I, too, concur with Nishidani. I also think this is a groundless witch hunt. Virtually every editor who edits articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict has a strong point of view, and singling out one of the better editors in the area is outrageous. Bolter21 is frequently correct -- I challenge any of the editors calling for his head to point to a single article about something that can be said to exist in the State of Palestine. Where is this state? If you wish to pretend that it has a physical presence, go ahead and deceive yourselves. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:51, 25 August 2017 (UTC) Clarified below

Um, Malik, that looks like a bet, even if thrown to the decapitators. As someone who wishes young Stav to keep his head and help us consolidate an intelligent community in the I/P death zone, I can't help note that Rami K. Isaac, C. Michael Hall, Freya Higgins-Desbiolles,'Palestine as a Tourism Destination,', in Rami K. Isaac, C. Michael Hall, Freya Higgins-Desbiolles (eds).The Politics and Power of Tourism in Palestine, Routledge, 2015 pp.15-34 p.26 tend to think it has a physical presence, 6,000 sq.kms, with no borders (a large part of Israel has no border) but whose entry and exit points are controlled by 2 foreign states. That said, I'm generally wary of pressing the issue one way or another: there's more important editing to be done than squabbling over the Kafkian-quarkish-Schrödinger state of Palestine. It should neither be affirmed nor denied, erased everywhere or plunked everywhere. If a strong source for an article has it, it can go in. If no such source relevant to a specific article topic exists, you stay with Palestinian territories etc.Nishidani (talk) 22:11, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

• Please note that I have blocked ThisIsAgain32 for 48 hours as an arbitration enforcement action to enforce the 500/30 rule, and have made very clear on their talk page that they must not participate in this discussion or any other editing related to the Arab-Israeli conflict until they reach extended-confirmed status. Although this report could be dealt with as an arbitration enforcement matter, I do not intend to do so (though I think any other uninvolved administrator could, if they so wished). I do not consider my block of the OP grounds to dismiss this complaint (though I take no position on its merits, and, again, I think any uninvolved admin could close it as an AE action if they wish). GoldenRing (talk) 20:36, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

The complaint is clearly valid, and 7 people so far have supported a topic ban of some sort on the reported editor (even Nishidani is advocating a topic-ban on the "State of Palestine" issue). The reported editor's behavior is going to have to be dealt with one way or another, so the fact that this particular report may (or may not, the wording of WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 is unclear as to what "This exception" refers to) have been filed in violation of an unclear ruling is not cause to close the discussion. Softlavender (talk) 04:07, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Nishidani have opposite bias from Bolter so no wonder he support the topic ban.--Shrike (talk) 08:15, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

But Shrike opposed a ban because he is totally impartial! ;) 10:03, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

No one said that but a phrase "even Nishidani is advocating a topic-ban" implied that bolter and nishidani share the same POV.--Shrike (talk) 10:11, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

@Shrike: You misread Softlavender's point. The "even" refers to the point that most of the people weighing in so far, do support some kind of topic ban. The spectrum ranged from a broad topic ban, to a narrow topic ban. Of course, the spectrum is now widened because I and you have opposed sanctions altogether. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 10:30, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

• I oppose any sanctions on Bolter. From what I can see, the discussion on the talk page is good-faith and civil. The OP has simply not made the case for any sort of generalized misconduct, edit-warring or otherwise flouting consensus. Most of the diffs are in the "throw mud and see what sticks" category. The only incivil diff in the OP is this one, which is over a year ago.

  I now come to the content dispute. Bolter is making a case that the State of Palestine exists de jure, but not de facto. This can probably be solved with careful phrasing, ideally with a clearly stated RfC. A long time ago, I closed an RfC on Kosovo, which could be helpful here.

  Finally, about bias: all editors in this area have a bias, and people are not required to be unbiased on Wikipedia (not that it is possible anyway). What is important is whether people, by and large, behave properly: advance good-faith arguments, are amenable to compromise and follow consensus. And the violation of these standards has not been demonstrated to have occurred. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 04:51, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

So the recent diff I brought, in which Bolter21 chararacterised people disagreeing with him as "dishonest" is "good-faith and civil" in your opinion? Zero^talk 10:03, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

@Zero0000: The diff was not in the OP, but I did read the comment when I read the talk page discussion. To be clear, Bolter says: ...dishonest person, an ignorant, or an innocent reader of Wikipeida.... The comment is needlessly inflammatory and is not the way I would have phrased it, for sure. But, and this is crucial, the point which Bolter is making is the difference between de jure and de facto state. Whatever one might think about the validity of the point, it's a reasonable and good-faith argument. In my opinion, occasional incivility in this area is virtually inevitable, especially as the length of the discussion grows longer. As long as the overwhelming thrust of the discussion is in good-faith, I usually counsel overlooking the slip-ups.

Again, I suggest that the matter be resolved by careful phrasing, preferably by using an RfC. I recall the Judea and Samaria/West Bank case which was eventually settled by an RfC. One could work on that model. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 10:30, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Probably a waste of time. As Nathan Thrall, the most intelligent commentator on these things, argues, it is in Israel's rational interests to maintain a stalemate in negotiations so that a 'State of Palestine', recognized by most of the world, is denied recognition by the major Western powers. It is in the interests of the Palestinian people (but perhaps not their Quisling government in Ramallah - they're doing well for themselves) to assert that sovereignty has been partially recognized - there are parts of the territories Israel can't enter, except at gunpoint, unless permission is granted by the 'national authority' of Palestine, and Israeli officials deal with the 'enemy' or 'foreign power' that is the PNA on a day to day basis, according to formal accords - an undisputed form of diplomatic recognition. They just refuse to call it that, because it would have legal consequences for their pretensions to wrest eventual hegemony by sheer attrition. Bolter's point of view toes his government's line, which is his right, but he can't insist that the Israeli POV be the default one for Wikipedia. This is his error, as it is also flawed to press the opposite view, maintaining that State of Palestine define every article re Palestinian villages right up to the Green Line. Editors should not toe government or ethnic lines: they should evaluate the complexity of the evidence in RS on a case by case basis. Bolter hasn't done that, and that is why Softlavender has a point, though any sanction should be a light reminder. I would suggest a time-limit on a sanction which states he is not to edit State of Palestine material for 3 months or the like.Nishidani (talk) 12:21, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

• I too oppose any sanctions on Bolter.This content dispute but the filer has no right to participate in it as he doesn't meet the criteria per WP:ARBPIA3--Shrike (talk) 08:05, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Bolter21 is a good editor. This is a Content dispute. While it is not a question that a Palestinian State has been recognized by many (though not a UN member state, yet) - the question raised in the example cited above regards to the territorial extant of said possible state. Stating that Jenin (area A) is inside the State of Palestine (as opposed to the Palestinian Authority) is perhaps a bit agenda-pushing (there has been some of that) but really just a POV flavor - there is no strong factual problem. However when referring to Area C (West Bank) where the Palestinian Authority has no de-facto (we can argue the de-jureness per Oslo....) control or Gaza Strip which de-jure is part of the PA, but de-facto is controlled by a separate government (with a separate foreign policy, trade, and activities in military conflict (e.g. - 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict) - even if you accept that the state is recognized (again - not fully) and lays claim to the territory - you have a very strong issue in that de-facto this isn't the case.Icewhiz (talk) 10:44, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose tban, not enough attempt to sort out content dispute at articles first, before escalating here.
• Boomerang - ThisIsAgain32 also broke 1R on Foundation for Defense of Democracies after being being given correct DS warning. From level of sophistication of editing, with newness of account, I suspect they're a sock of a blocked editor (which they've denied), and they're borderline disruptive/useful NETBENEFIT / NOTHERE. Would support longer block / indef to prevent disruption. Widefox; talk 14:20, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
• Comment Zero0000, I agree my statement wasn't worded in the nicest manner, but I think the problem wasn't the uncivil words, but the message which was not properly delivered. Kingsindian did understand it. While this isn't a very good excuse, returning from a week of training in the desert, sleeping on bare soil wearing a vest and a helmet after conquering hills doesn't make you more polite, I'll try to work on that.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:53, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - A sanction is nothing more than a humiliation. But this remains true : Bolter's point of view toes his government's line, which is his right, but he can't insist that the Israeli POV be the default one for Wikipedia. (Nishidani). Just here above, Bolter21 finds as an excuse that he was just coming back from a traning in the desert. Is he serious ? That's not what should have been expected as an excuse! Well, unless he clearly states he will comply whit Nishidani statement and that he understands that Palestine is a de jure State for wikipedia, he should be topic-banned. Pluto2012 (talk) 17:36, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

You did a good job in bad reading. "While this isn't a very good excuse, returning from a week of training in the desert, sleeping on bare soil wearing a vest and a helmet after conquering hills doesn't make you more polite, I'll try to work on that". This wasn't an excuse for me speaking in an uncivil manner, but I promis to work on that.

Secondly, I am starting to get sick of people who have no knowledge on my views and edits, demanding sanctions against me becuase what they think I believe and what they don't know I write. Of course I acknowledge Palestine is a de jure state, I was the one who wrote it in the lead section of the SoP article. This discussion is really going no where, mainly because of people with an extremely very fast judgement.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:46, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Bolter21. As I wrote yesterday, I think this is a witch hunt. It's relying more on the personal prejudices of the editors calling for blood than facts about what Bolter21 has written. He is a realist about the State of Palestine -- it exists on paper and in the halls of diplomscy, but not in the real world. As an encyclopedia, we shouldn't write about it like there are cities and universities located there. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:15, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose any topic ban. Firstly I am concerned about the legitimacy of the OP to be commenting on the I/P area at all, as it appears from Malik's observation above that this person does not satisfy the criteria fror ARBPIA 30/500. I think Kingsindian makes excellent points in his general comments, as does Malik and Nick, with their usual intelligence. By the way, I would argue that the attitude in Israel on this is not some monolithic and mindless groupthink. There is much debate and wildly differing views in the Israeli body politic. The Israeli Government's stance and the Israeli intelligensia are not the same thing. Do not attempt to hang out a good, cooperative and highly constructive editor out to dry on this. There are many nuances regarding the status of Palestine as a state, which is too often used as a political football by nations and entities to score points, more aimed at disconcerting Israel than to help the Palestinian cause. The legal and on the ground realities have been demonstrated in many comments above and I think this actually quite minor issue can easily be resolved using Kingsindian's technique of using well-thought out phrasing, with copious use of the RfC tool. Some of you may know me, and I know Bolter and many of you. If necessary, I am willing (with Bolter's permission) to assist in finding acceptable wordings when editing this very narrow subject comes up. A sort of very light sub-mentoring. I strongly recommend no action is taken if B agrees. If others still push it after that, then it is basically a witch hunt which has no place here. Simon. Irondome (talk) 18:21, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

No one actually working in the I/P area wants Bolter topic banned. He's a valuable and scarce resource. Most of this complaint stinks: IPs are the bane of the area. But Bolter has to adopt a less proselytizing position, that's all, and a very narrow ban, on State of Palestine text, for a few months can be useful. Of course he could just say: Message received. I'll neutralize that bee in my bonnet, and Robert would be a close relative. My only reserve about this very light sanction, is that some dunce might cite it if and when he comes up for administratorship. He would fit that role well, and if a sanction on his log might prejudice that future promotion, then I'd be happy to just see this complaint die on its feet. My judgement may have been affected by the fact that I have had some harsh measures thrown my way after bullshit complaints over p's and q's were made, and we had a squad in here yelling for the guillotine on each occasion. Nishidani (talk) 20:15, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanction against Bolter21 harsher than a strict warning. It seems to me that some of the editors most active in the Israel-Palestine topic area, with a wide variety of viewpoints, are in virtual agreement that Bolter21 is a valuable contributor who needs to moderate his tone, while editors who have never contributed to any article related to the subject are calling for his head. Something isn't right about that. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:08, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
• Comment I agree with the above: none of us "regulars" in the IP area wants a full topic ban of Bolter. (Which is rather remarkable, as the "two sides of the divide" rarely agree on anything….) Seriously, Bolter is a valuable editor in the area, (and I say this, even though I don't think anyone in the area will accuse me of having much sympathy with Bolters present employers). Having said this, I would Support a limited topic ban, only, relating to anything w.r.t. "State of Palestine", and "Palestinian territories". etc. (But a strict warning might also be enough) Huldra (talk) 23:20, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
• Warning is sufficient. I trust the sense of "regulars" in the area that Bolter21's contributions to it are generally constructive, even though they're often in disagreement as to some of the edits' particulars. I agree with concerns that the nature of these "Palestinian territories" edits is political PoV pushing, and thus that a warning is actually in order. Also agree that the complainant isn't on good footing, even if the complaint isn't to be ignored pro forma. However, the WP lingo and process know-how of the ostensibly new user could be because of a long-term anon IP editor creating an account, not a banner user return via sockpuppet.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  00:10, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment I too would oppose a topic ban on Boulter, even though we have clashed sharply in the past, and particularly when, as a new editor, he made unacceptable comments to and about me. It is perfectly clear to me, as it seems to be to others who edit in the I/P topic area, that Boulter has made significant progress since those early days, and now, in general, tries to edit in a non-POV and collegial manner. We clearly have differing views on the issues here, but we have at times collaborated constructively, and I have found very little untoward behaviour in his edits. I have no sympathy whatsoever with his current situation, and would not be disposed to accept this as an excuse for poor editing; but in a topic area where we have seen sockpuppets and truth-warriors galore, Boulter stands out as a reasonable and honest editor who respects and engages with, rather than dismisses and denounces, those he disagrees with. A sharp warning should be sufficient here, with the clear understanding that, if such behaviour recurs editors will not extend such good faith as we do now. RolandR (talk) 20:49, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose any topic ban other than a very strict one on changing between mentions of "State of Palestine" and "Palestinian territories" or related terms although a warning would seem to be sufficient. Malik Shabazz et al have articulate my opinion exactly. While I don't edit the area, it seems clear that the vast majority of people involved in the I/P topic area whatever their viewpoint don't want Bolter21 banned from the area. If it were a one sided affair (let alone supported by everyone) then it would be worth considering depending on the circumstances and behaviour but not in a case like this. Nil Einne (talk) 19:22, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• Agree with the esteemed members of the Ministry of Love that Bolter21 is obviously guilty of thoughtcrime. Only a fool would think that banning him from saying a few words is enough to encourage crimestop, though. I think we all know what needs to be done. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 05:08, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Again, sneering at good will ain't productive, and the link to Orwell, as if Bolter is being subjected to some torture chamber, is particularly unfortunate to eyes that are familiar with the facts of the area, those set down by the impeccably right-wing Israeli historian Benny Morris:

'Israelis like to believe, and tell the world, that they were running an enlightened or “benign” occupation qualitatively different from other military occupations the world has seen. The truth was radically different. Like all occupations, Israel’s was founded on brute force, repression and fear, collaboration and treachery, beatings and torture chambers, and daily humiliation and manipulation.’ Orwellian indeed. Nishidani (talk) 07:16, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

SOAP moar. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:28, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

No. It is a quote from an honest historian, in tone with your innuendo. If you disagree, this is not the place. Drop an email to Benny Morris and remonstrate with him for 'soapboxing'. It's a distraction here.Nishidani (talk) 09:52, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Does anyone actually bark at your dog whistles anymore? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:09, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose any form of topic ban. As Malik has pointed out, Bolter is one of the better editors in this topic area. Very worrying to see how quickly a rather baseless ANI report (which should have been handled at WP:AE and has already seen the OP blocked) can end up with multiple editors supporting a topic ban. Number 57 09:33, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

  Notice the reasoning the supporters of a topic ban are giving. Quite interesting to see systemic bias in action, promoted by people who are ignorant of the academic debate on the topic. Although you are perhaps an "Israeli or Israel supporter" so can safely be ignored, according to the same people. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:09, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

  • Again a personal attack on editors ('ignorant') who don't agree with you. Disruptive. Drop it.Nishidani (talk) 12:14, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
    • You should at least put in the effort to read what I say carefully if you're going to police every comment I make. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:31, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
    • There is no personal attack in NMMNG's comment. Ignorant in this context means lacking knowledge. It does not mean what you seem to think it means. - Nick Thorne ^talk 14:07, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Check again, and read the whole statement, not just that adjective, but the insinuation that editors who thought Bolter should be sanctioned 'safely ignore' 'pro-Israeli editors'. Bolter turned out (see also my page) 'ignorant' of the relevant academic literature, just as some above were ignorant of other aspects. Ignorance is characteristic of this area, and understandable. But to single out one side as ignorant, and in their ignorance, promoting WP:Systemic bias in what has been, to the contrary. a civil moment is quite pointy, other than being hilarious. Nishidani (talk) 20:56, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Not everything I say is about you. For example, someone explicitly said in this thread that pro-Israeli editors can be ignored. As an exercise in reading comprehension, see if you can find that comment. Keeping both those things in mind, read the discussion and my comments again. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:58, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• oppose for procedure at the very least. This should have been closed right away, once it was determined the op can't post here. Oppose then on reason as well. Nothing shown here is actionable. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:50, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
• oppose a topic ban. Also oppose the repeated efforts of certain I/P editors to use content disputes and/or relatively minor rules infractions to vote editors with whom they disagree on political questions off the island.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:16, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
• I find this man quite ignorant when he lacks education and the history of the State of Palestine Also oppose the repeated efforts of certain I/P editors to use content disputes and/or relatively minor rules infractions to vote editors with whom they disagree on political questions off this area and the people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JackW436 (talk • contribs) 20:41, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd advise you to be very careful with the personal attacks considering you JUST came off of a block. --Tarage (talk) 00:59, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't understand the claim, implicit in many of the comments above, that some editors here are seizing on "minor infractions" in an attempt to remove an editor with whom they politically disagree. What is evident here is that several editors who might be expected to have an opposed political analysis to Boulter are nevertheless opposing a topic ban or harsh sanction, recognising that he is a net positive to this project, who edits in a collegiate manner. Some of those who would seem to share his political analysis could learn from his behaviour, and might be more helpful to his case if they desisted from their antagonistic comments. It would be a benefit to everyone if an admin could take any appropriate action and close this case, before the discussion becomes even uglier. RolandR (talk) 02:43, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Echo RolandR's points completely. The calls for a broad topic ban, by and large, came from people who don't edit in this area. People who do edit in this area either opposed or called for a very narrow topic ban. This is the exact opposite of what one would expect if people were trying to "bump off" their opponents. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 03:32, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

A small topic ban now can be leveraged later. If they think he's a good editor, why do they agitate for this kind of blot on his record? Would they ever, in a million years, support even a small topic ban on someone they agree with politically? But you know all this, of course. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:58, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Right: so according to you, any sanction, no matter how small, on a "political opponent" is incontrovertible evidence that the real reason is to bump off the person due to their political views. By the same reasoning, all the "oppose" votes by the "political supporters" here can be discarded, since they are "really" protecting the person on their side. Be careful what you wish for.

As to your question: "would they ... support even a small topic ban on someone they agree with politically": the corresponding and relevant question here is "would they ... oppose a topic ban on someone they disagree with politically". And the answer to the latter question is yes.

I do not claim that myside bias does not exist, just that it is not the only or determining factor. If you want a system without myside bias, it would have to exclude human beings, or put very strict limits on their behavior. ANI is not such a system. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 02:49, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Not sure what you're saying here. You agree there's nothing worth sanction here. If you look at the justification for a "narrow topic ban" (as if that's a small sanction) given here by opposing editors, they do not even pretend to be about protecting the encyclopedia, citing "arrogance", "a bee in his bonnet", and nothing whatsoever in Huldra's case. They deserve a prize for not going directly for the throat in this case? I doubt anyone's buying that. The only person here who voted against his political position is Roland. Good job Roland. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 06:24, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Comment I recall once reading a comment somewhere to the effect that the main problem with the I/P tragedy was that both sides had a bloody good point. This may well attract the highly sophisticated editors who work in the area, who implicitly or explicitly recognise this. It leads to almost (sometimes literally) theological debate about the most arcane and subtle points. This seems to create an almost perverse group loyalty which rejects outsiders unless they can quickly come to grips with this reality. I was disappointed that I did not support Nick in a recent scrape he was involved in which led him to ordeal by board. I was unwell due to R/L stresses. I take positions on a purely case-by-case basis based on the conduct of the colleague and quality and sources provided. It is a paradox that the regulars of the I/P editing community, who hold diametrically opposite POV's, often support each other, out of intellectual and personal respect for sincerely held beliefs, no matter how much it may clash with POV, providing such disagreements are thrashed out through consensus, and not on the drama boards. Imaginative solutions to issues are very often found on talk pages before resort to this kind of situation. It may come as a shock, but the I/P area is not the worst area to edit in on WP. Stav has gained respect on all sides entirely due to his positive contributions and ability to discuss. He had a few early issues in his editing career, but they were quickly resolved, with a little minor help. As a Zionist, I would support any colleague of whatever POV, if they were being harassed, which usually happens by I.P's and those who do not edit this area except to visit the boards with a pitchfork attitude. I would agree strongly with the comment by KI above. The reality is far more nuanced. Since 2012 I have seen the same names, the same colleagues plugging away. I have never witnessed any mass purges or WP assasinations on any scale. Compare that to some other contentious editing areas, where they appear commonplace. Irondome (talk) 03:30, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Note I've decided to remove pages such as "Palestine (region)" and "State of Palestine", as well as Jerusalem from my watchlist. With or without my involvment, these articles are very contested, and I don't have much to contribute to them beyond the debates. I ain't happy with what goes on in these articles, but I guess I'll just let it be.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:20, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose/Boomerang The Kingfisher (talk) 17:37, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
• Uninvolved comment (I don't edit this topic and don't follow it in the news very closely): This dispute sounds like it's about the use of the WP:Wikivoice to reference the State of Palestine, rather than about its actual status. With the big disclaimer that my impressions come from the US mass media that have their own biases, I thought it was nowhere near being a settled matter, so describing it as disputed sounds more neutral under NPOV. International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine#No_diplomatic_recognition doesn't look like a list of close allies of Israel to me. Bolter's claim about where the references came from could be relevant. We have an NPOV noticeboard, but content disagreements about I/P have historically been intractable so I don't know if it can help. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 08:03, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

• Comment The international/UN/136 countries recognizing the legitimacy of the Palestinian state and Israel's claims to that land and their current recognition of the Palestinian Authority are both facts for which reliable sources can be found. There's no reason for contentious editing on the part of the original complainant or Bolter21 to continue. Both nations' assertions belong in these articles. Bolter21 has announced his intention to WP:DROPTHESTICK. If the original complainant does likewise, and any future editors on those pages seek consensus, this doesn't have to be the hairpull that, say, Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections is. Of course, renaming or making contentious edits to articles without any attempt to seek consensus is evidence that one or all contending parties are WP:NOTHERE on that particular topic. In that case topic bans on any contentious editors on this range of topics are indicated. loupgarous (talk) 08:44, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

I suggest closing this thread, with no sanction. The aim of these arbitration discussions is to sort out problems, and sanctions are only necessary when one encounters intransigence. Bolter has undertaken to avoid the problem, and that is enough. Take his word for it. As to him delisting pages like Jerusalem, I would advise him not to overdo it. One doesn't have to edit pages one keeps an eye on, and he should consider that at least his comments are welcome anywhere, the SoP excepted because we all know that just leads to a stasis, and a waste of everyone's time. Nishidani (talk) 16:00, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

I concur 81.98.14.109 (talk) 11:03, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Conduct of User:Xenophrenic with respect to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 July 4

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I have no doubt that User:Xenophrenic is a good and well-meaning person, but his passion for defending atheism as a viewpoint from which he is convinced no ill can come has led to tendentious editing and accusing editors who disagree with him of having an anti-atheist agenda. To this end, Xenophrenic made 64 posts in the discussion regarding Category:Persecution by atheists, challenging virtually every editor who disagreed with him, and including unpleasant comments like "That is yet another demonstration of the quality of your reading comprehension skills", "please troll at a different discussion page", "You're agenda is showing, and I don't think a closing editor is going to take you seriously". Granted, there were provocations going both ways, but Xenophrenic was the most active participant in this conduct. It was also pointed out in that discussion that Xenophrenic has tended towards edit warring in attempting to depopulate categories that he feels portray atheists negatively.

My involvement with this topic began when I closed this long-backlogged discussion (a very difficult close, due to the extensive discussion and numerous options proposed by participants), finding no clear consensus to delete, but renaming the category to a title with much narrower scope that was suggested by multiple participants in the discussion, Category:Persecution by atheist states. Xenophrenic appealed the close, which is certainly his right. The appeal was closed as endorsing the close of the initial discussion. However, Xenophrenic's conduct of confronting every disagreeing participant at length continued during the appeal. In a discussion with only about a dozen participants, Xenophrenic made 28 comments, often with the imprimatur that those who disagree with him just don't get it, aren't reading the discussion, or have an anti-atheist agenda.

I also sought to populate the newly refined category with clearly relevant articles and subcategories such as Category:Persecution of Christians in the Eastern Bloc and Category:Anti-religious campaign in the Soviet Union, as articles in these categories clearly describe efforts to impose state atheism through persecution of religious practitioners. The population of such a category is, in my view, standard operating procedure, the same as when I close a discussion as "delete", and then remove links to the deleted target from articles, or when I close a multimove request as moved, and then update the links to reflect the changed page titles. Generally, these efforts are uncontroversial. In this case, Xenophrenic reverted these edits, and has continued to edit war over these additions - he has, for example, removed the category from the subcategory eight times, and has been reverted eight times, by several different editors. Clearly Xenophrenic knows to time his reversions to avoid the letter of 3RR, but not the spirit of it. Xenophrenic's rationale continues to be the belief that the category should not exist at all, that atheism can not be a motivation for people (or states) to act negatively, and that any sources to the contrary must be biased and agenda-driven.

I have no further interest in this topic, but I feel constrained to seek some limitation on Xenophrenic's conduct in this area - even if only a break from this topic for a few months. bd2412 T 20:11, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• Wow. This user seems to be on a very persistent mission, starting on July 5, to see that category deleted. They were clearly highly invested in that deletion discussion, and although the consensus and the Deletion Review consensus, were against them, as of today they're still on a mission to remove that category.[139] While the edit warring problem is obvious, especially given their block log, I'd say this crosses strongly over into tendentious editing. A permanent sanction would certainly seem to be needed here, but a block moreso. I've blocked them for 2 weeks. I think this would have been warranted based on the edit warring alone, and certainly for the underlying WP:RGW issues. Swarm ♠ 20:37, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
  • @Swarm: Since this thread seems to be about more than edit warring, maybe it would be best to conditionally and/or temporarily unblock in order for him to participate here? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:00, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
    • @Rhododendrites: Absolutely. If a community sanction is imposed, I will absolutely be in favor of unblocking in deference to said sanction. If such a sanction is implemented, any admin may unblock without any objection or input from myself. Swarm ♠ 03:41, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
      • @Swarm: hmm that didn't generate a notification for some reason. Regardless, what I mean is that since we're talking about Xenophrenic in the context of more than just edit warring, it seems a shame that he is unable to comment/defend himself. I could be wrong, but isn't it pretty common in such scenarios to allow for a restricted unblock (i.e. only to edit this page)? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 04:13, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

You are mistaken. Blocked users may have their comments transcribed to AN/I, but I've never heard of easing a restriction for the purpose of AN/I. Given the fact that the only questioning of the block is escalation, I would certainly not support any unblock in absence of a stronger sanction. Swarm ♠ 04:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Ah. Perhaps I was confusing the practice with that at AE/ARB. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 05:58, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support topic ban: I have conflicted with Xenophrenic on this topic, and I have not seen many of his edits elsewhere. Hopefully, he makes good content edits, and if so, hopefully, he can prove himself so he does not need a topic ban. However, Xenophrenic does appear to be on a mission to whitewash WP content on atheism -- this is seen in his edit warring even after discussions were closed against what he wanted, along with his accusations that user like myself have the bias. I make no apology for my personal religious/political beliefs, but I am not pushing them on WP -- I think the "persecution by atheist states" category is noncontroversial, as there were atheist states in history that engaged in religious persecution (this fact does not condemn all atheists, just as the Inquisition does not condemn all Roman Catholics -- and I speak as a Protestant). --1990'sguy (talk) 21:26, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• Accusations like a viewpoint from which he is convinced no ill can come and attempting to depopulate categories that he feels portray atheists negatively should really come with diffs. That's not to say Xenophrenic has been a model of good faith collaboration, and it's likely he's stepped over the line edit warring somewhere recently, but his arguments are pretty solidly based on policy and sourcing.

Adding context: This ordeal began in response to a category Jobas (now indeffed for sock puppetry) began as one of several anti-atheism editing projects. The first CfD attracted several SPAs, many poor arguments, and blatant canvassing. (As an aside, since BD2412 and I have disagreed on the definition of an SPA, I define it here as a user with few or no edits on enwiki outside of a particular topic or purpose [i.e. including users active on other Wikimedia projects with few-to-no edits on enwiki who happened to find this obscure projectspace discussion]).

Xenophrenic has challenged the sourcing in several places, engaging with more or less the same group of editors, with arguments on both sides repeated ad nauseum. It's often about wanting sources establishing the concept "persecution by atheists" as opposed to a synthesis of something like "they were atheists" and "they persecuted religious groups" therefore categorize not just as "anti-clericalism," "persecution of communists," "religious persecution," etc. but also "persecution by atheists" (I've paid a little less attention to the new category's debates, though it seems to suffer from the same issue). But the content particulars aren't for ANI, of course.

I'm sympathetic to Xenophrenic's position, if not his methods, and appreciate that this is an effort to demand better policy arguments and sources despite being outnumbered, but that in an effort to make up for being outnumbered his editing has gotten rather out of hand. An edit warring block is probably deserved, but I would oppose further sanction without evidence that extends beyond this particular mess. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:31, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• I am not unsympathetic to the fact that atheists are a much maligned group. I would note that a closer could have legitimately closed the original CfD as "no consensus" and left the category as it was. I would consider the category rename to be at least a partial "win" for those supporting deletion, since it no longer is directed at atheists generically. bd2412 T 22:18, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• In a way, it seems like you're characterizing this debate as one of atheists vs. non-atheists here and in the way you've described Xenophrenic (the objection I started with above). Neither Xenophrenic nor I have been arguing about the plight of atheists or that they aren't depicted fairly on Wikipedia. The problem has nothing to do with the treatment of atheists (or absolution of atheists, etc.) such that the category has now been improved by being less about atheists broadly... the problem is that it's a loss for Wikipedia to have categories based on WP:SYNTH, and that the substance of an editor's policy-based arguments are being misrepresented by characterizing that editor having "a viewpoint from which he is convinced no ill can come". — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:48, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• In retrospect, I withdraw the portion of my statement regarding "a viewpoint from which he is convinced no ill can come". Perhaps Xenophrenic's views are not that absolute. His edit warring and battleground conduct is what it is irrespective of his motivations. bd2412 T 17:18, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support Topic Ban for Xenophrenic on all Religion/Atheism Articles Appears impossible for this user to accept that credible sources see things differently on this topic. desmay (talk) 21:54, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• What credible sources are those? People keep claiming their existence, but none were produced at the CfD. The closer found it too hard to reach a policy-based decision such as summnig up arguments about WP:OCEGRS, so the vote was counted. The category at CfD was empty at the time of its nomination and anyone wanting the renamed category included in articles would need to produce reasons based on sources. Johnuniq (talk) 04:00, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

• I have spent significant time looking at the case and Xenophrenic is not the problem. The fundamental difficulty is that several agenda-driven editors have been pushing the idea that atheism is evil by inserting connect-the-dots factoids in articles along the lines that persecution has occurred because of atheism. Atheists have committed persecution, but so have people with black hair, and secondary sources known to be reliable for the relevant historical period are required to determine which were the significant factors that lead to persecution. Discussions have been closed based on a vote without reasonable assessment of the policy-based information presented regarding underlying sources. For example, the Soviets used atheism to crush opposition—souces do not suggest Soviets crushed religion because they were atheists. Johnuniq (talk) 22:24, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• ^^ This. The claim is still problematic, even if there are a greater number of accounts supporting it. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:44, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• We have categories like Category:Lawyers from Tulsa, Oklahoma and Category:Crimes committed by law enforcement. This does not imply that coming from Tulsa causes people to become lawyers, or that becoming a law enforcement officer causes people to commit crimes. These categories merely catalog overlap. bd2412 T 23:07, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• WP:OCEGRS is the problem because it would not be possible to write an article about persecution by atheists or atheist states that satisfied WP:N and WP:V. No one is pushing the idea that there is anything wrong with lawyers or Tulsa so advocacy does not arise. By contrast, advocates are using poorly sourced factoids and categories to POV push regarding atheism. Johnuniq (talk) 23:18, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• I disagree with this user on the facts, but I'm having some trouble connecting his conduct with the need for a topic ban, and I'm not completely sure a two week block is fully justified. He's engaged passionately in a debate about whether a category should exist ---- and lost. He's also removed the same category from articles and has got overexcited with reverting. And... what else? Please could someone help me join this up?—S Marshall T/C 22:34, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
  • For the record, I did not propose a block. However, I was unaware of Xenophrenic's block history, which includes a half dozen blocks for edit warring, most recently a one-week block in February of this year. Typically, blocks for edit warring are progressively longer. bd2412 T 22:56, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• Ah, yes, I see. OK, the block's hard to argue with. Topic ban still seems a bit strong to me.—S Marshall T/C 23:04, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• Looking through Xenophrenic's edit history, when he disagreed with the outcome of the previous debate on this category, he went ahead and removed that category from every article to which it had been added. I have nominated plenty of categories for deletion in my time, and when I have been on the losing side, I've never taken a step like that. bd2412 T 23:26, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• As a followup: I think the block was very reasonable, if not lenient. This would be a typical block for continued edit warring, without factoring in the strong POV-pushing associated with this user's behavior. This aggravating factor was handily present. Swarm ♠ 03:50, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
• I don't at all agree with Xenophrenic's 'methods', but I can share his frustration in face of demonstrable WP:SOAPBOXing and all the (seemingly networked) bad-faith 'in-group' behaviour required to 'push' it; wikipedia is obviously not prepared for such affronts, and those responsible for such behaviour are no doubt quite aware of that, too. And this is a problem that goes beyond this particular topic.

Demonstrating unverifiability (in addition to the above behaviour) is not 'POV-pushing' (and it is disingenuous to call it so): even a cursory search should be enough to demonstrate whether something is commonly-accepted and widely-demonstrated fact (or a fringe-opinion created/promoted by one particular 'in-group'), but when pages of responses to that request by those pushing a claim (and even deciding administrators) do everything but that (and are deflection, vote-counting that doesn't add up, and 'let's find a behaviour fault' (often non sequitur) ad hominem accusations instead), that makes a situation that pretty well describes itself, and makes this look like an additional effort to remove opposition.

I'm not sure whether we (or who) are supposed to even 'vote' here (and any rational decision should, again, consider more than that), but: sanctions for bad behaviour, yes, but topic-ban, no, especially when those seeking the ban are incapable of defending (by any demonstrable means) their this-topic-related claims that are the root of all this. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 07:54, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

What's more, it should be further noted that the reporting admin (and the 'decider' admin in earlier discussions leading to this) is clearly siding with the WP:SOAPBOXers: this sort of behaviour (that has yet to address the verifiability of anything) has no place on Wikipedia, and I would really like to see this, upon further non-partisan examination, WP:BOOMERANG, and perhaps also against others supporting the same decidedly un-encyclopaedic goals. In any case, this entire situation requires further objective attention by those truely interested in Wikipedia's verifiablilty, as this misuse of Wikipedia, as far as I can see, is becoming a disquieting and increasingly organised trend. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 21:30, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I had no involvement in this matter, nor any interest in the topic, prior to my closure of the long-pending CfD discussion. The most substantial portion of the conduct noted above had already occurred by then. There is no conspiracy at work here, and no agenda beyond carrying out the best available consensus of the community. bd2412 T 21:39, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Nobody's claiming any 'conspiracy', but I have full confidence in the ability of anyone deciding whatever here to judge that for themselves. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 21:45, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

• I closed the first deletion discussion(here) as no consensus, but I did point out that the category as it was named was clearly WP:OR and needed to be renamed. I cannot defend Xenophrenic's edit-warring, but he's still correct that the category name as it exists is WP:SYNTH and clearly cannot be verified (or hasn't been as yet). Topic-banning someone for pushing a POV that's technically correct cannot be logical, surely, regardless of the edit-warring issue. I am becoming seriously concerned that there is a group of editors who are pushing for their "opponents" to be removed from the arena, as has already happened with QuackGuru in one of the sections above. I don't think letting them get their wish is a very good idea at all. Black Kite (talk) 14:00, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
• I've seen many sanctions applied where the administrator explained that good edits don't justify edit-warring, or whatever other bad behavior. Now I see the opposite. Black Kite is even threatening the editors who had their consensus overridden by Xenophrenic's edit-warring with an "investigation" into offsite coordination. On what evidence?

The message is clear: ignore policy and consensus if necessary to make sure your edits stick. And don't worry if you're reported, we'll protect you because we agree with your POV. Administrators don't get a super-vote on content decisions, especially after the fact. Enforce the rules consistently or not at all. D.Creish (talk) 15:18, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

• Perhaps you've forgotten that if I was using a "super vote" then I would have closed the CFD as Delete, wouldn't I? Perhaps actually reading around the issue might be useful here; as Johnuniq and The Promenader amongst others say above, demnstrating unverifiability of an issue (and don't forget WP:V is policy) is perfectly good editing (it is not POV editing), even if edit-warring is not. Those who wish to see the category retained but have still not fixed the verifiability issues with it cannot hold the moral high ground here, sorry. Especially editors like yourself whose very short editing histories here seem to be characterised mostly by editing warring and POV editing themselves (how ironic, eh?). Black Kite (talk) 15:57, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

No, I read the deletion discussion (including all 61 of Xenophrenic's comments.) The majority were in favor of keep. Ignoring the canvassed votes the majority was even greater. You said the "keep votes were very poor indeed in regards to policy" without explaining what policies or why and closed as "no consensus", so I don't know what point trying to prove. If you'd closed as "delete" it would have been overturned. D.Creish (talk) 16:42, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Really? 99 article space edits and you're giving Black Kite grief on AN/I about how to close discussions? Seriously?—S Marshall T/C 18:09, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support topic ban on atheism/religion topics or Use 1RR restriction: Wow, now that others mention it, Xenophrenic does have a long history of being blocked [140] for constant edit warring through the years. Especially lately he has been engaged with many editors over religion, atheism and politics pages. I know that atheism/religion pages and politics are very hot topics and are controversial, but seriously, the fact that admins have had to step in to block him in the past few years over constant edit warring in these these topics says quite a bit. Clearly temporary blocking has not been effective at reducing his passionate, but unfortunately aggressive and impatient posting - especially when faced with editors with whom he disagrees with. For instance, like User:BD2412 has experienced recently about Category:Anti-religious campaign in the Soviet Union in the talk page. The same behavior of constantly over-commenting to every other editor's post happened in the recent attempt to delete a category on atheism [141]. The same persistent behavior was active when Xenophrenic contested the decision [142] last week. Even before this, the same behavior was present in another attempt on the same atheism category back in January 2017 [143] with him even ignoring the other side's arguments and/or actually diminishing the points that the "other side" in a summary table (it was very messy). I had to re-summarize the points of the "other side" in order to keep objectivity and honesty intact - people made many points and to diminish their efforts looks condescending rather than trying to be fair what the others are saying. On another article Persecution of Buddhists I tried to expand on a source, almost verbatim and preferred the quote in the end, that was already there on theism, atheism, and repressive governments. I included both theism and atheism since that is what the source said in that section and he changed it to be about defending atheism in general, which was not the relevant part for that article. Instead of reaching a consensus (no one but him agreed with his proposed wording) it looks like he timed and spread out his + 10 reverts (he sometimes reverted manually, without hitting the revert button, to avoid detection) of 3 editors from April 29, 2017 to May 17, 2017 to avoid violating the 3 RR rule despite him not having a consensus favoring his edit after a pretty long discussion with him commentating on pretty much on every post.

Like even User:BD2412 noted, Xenophrenic knows how to time his reverts to avoid detection of admins. When another user was around, Xenophrenic apparently did 43 reverts in less than 2 hours! - per User:Fram's comments at the bottom of his own ANI reprot found here [144]. This is just too much. That was a widespread edit war over atheism/religion too, over many articles. Its one thing to be a passionate editor, it is another to be undiplomatic and to constantly edit war and to be impatiently reverting edits one disagrees with. Filibustering or tiring out editors is not a good strategy to gain allies.

Originally, when I saw this, I thought maybe a temporary ban for a few months would be enough, but seeing that such actions have not deterred such agressive and impatient behavior, I think it may be better for a permanent topic ban on atheism/religion pages OR a very long topic ban with restrictions after it ends such as strictly enforcing a 1RR so that he limits his edit wars and seeks consensus from all other editors. One has to accept the results. Many chances have already been given already to see if his behavior would change, but unfortunately it looks like it has not. I would have wished that it would not have come to this.Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 05:32, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I really think if you're going to make a whole lot of new accusations you really need to back them up with diffs, otherwise you're just jumping on the dog-pile. You also probably need to address the point that whether or not Xenophrenic has been using the most collegiate approach, he has an entirely valid point about the appropriateness of the category in question at the root of all this, per WP:OCEGRS. Sure, edit-warring is not appropriate, but it takes at least two editors for there to be an edit war and at least Xenophrenic is trying to apply actual policy rather than some kind of WP:SYNTH. (Where are the actual sources that validate the category, you know as per WP:V?) - Nick Thorne ^talk 06:09, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, the issue is not the category for me. I could go either way on it (I was middle ground on it). The issue that I brought forward was the reverts and the blocks that have resulted from edit warring and of course filibusting (some links are there). These are about behavior, not a category. Does that help?Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 06:33, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that we should ignore the context within which Xenophrenic acted and examine his actions in isolation? Because if that's the case then why do we have policy if a group of editors can simply ignore it and seek to get a lone editor trying to uphold that policy sanctioned for doing so? Like I say below, Xenophrenic probably deserves a trout for over enthusiasm, but his detractors appear to get a free pass to provoke without consequence and then get to jump on the dog pile here. Yes, very collegiate. - Nick Thorne ^talk 06:55, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Would anyone supporting a further sanction against Xenophrenic please identify whether they have a COI—Huitzilopochtli1990's (User:Ramos1990) first edit concerned religiosity and intelligence and mentions atheism six times. Regarding the substance of the above comment, what about the behavior of people who, without suitable secondary sources, sought to change articles to suggest that persecution has occurred because of atheism? I tried to clarify when the persecution category should be used here where the only comment supporting use of the category was from Desmay whose user page announces "Founder of the http://www.escapingatheism project". Secondary sources reliable for the relevant history should be used, but Xenophrenic is about the only editor referring to them. Johnuniq (talk) 08:05, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Johnuniq, it appears that your claim about Xenophrenic being the only editor to provide sources is false: (myself: [145][146]; Desmay: [147]) --1990'sguy (talk) 20:11, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

As standard in this discussion, those diffs show nothing but superficial obviousness ("The USSR praciced state atheism and had it as its goal"). The actual issue concerns a bunch of ILIKEIT votes concerning questions of history—did the Soviet government persecute religious figures because the politicians preferred atheism, or was it because the government persecuted all opposition figures and used atheism as a tool to remove alternative sources of authority. Johnuniq (talk) 22:32, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Johnuniq, WP:COI doesn't apply to me since that policy is about making edits on behalf of "yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial and other relationships". I am independent like most editors on wikipedia. Also, on my first edit I used 'theism' and related terms more than 5 times too. It does not really show much either way since new editors usually don't know how to write on wikipedia. The issue here is not Xenophrenic's point of view - everyone has one when it comes to atheism or "religion" since these are all volatile personal topics - controversial. The issue is behavior. Considering that Xenophrenic filed a complaint on an ANI report and was WP:BOOMERANGed by being blocked for edit warring by reverting 43 times in 2 hours across multiple pages with another editor a few months ago (see his ANI report here in the blocked section at the bottom [148]), do you think that something should be done? His block history is quite long too with 6 blocks since 2011 and at least 3 in the last year and a half over religion/atheism topics (meaning that independent admins have had to step in, including this time with User:Swarm and User:BD2412 taking action and filing this current ANI report). Sanctions such as restricting to 1RR is a decent option which I advocated already. Another option is a topic ban, which I would NOT have advocated if the constant and needless edit warring in recent years had not occurred - which User:BD2412 brought up.Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 23:16, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Johnuniq, it simply doesn't matter whether the leaders in atheist states believed atheism or used it -- their states were atheist states either way. The atheist state persecution category we were discussing has NOTHING to do about the people, it DOES have to do with the governments those people led. There is a big difference. I don't care whether the people in charge of the atheist states were true believers or opportunists -- what I do care in this case is whether their governments officially made state atheism the official religious/theological view. The sources that at least I and Desmay provided prove just that. --1990'sguy (talk) 03:28, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

That is only 'proof' that you're looking exclusively for sources (opinions) that 'agree' with you (and even presenting those 'require' your added 'interpretation'). If the claims you're WP:SOAPBOXing were true, any mainstream reference would echo them: by all means, please show us source that isn't an apologetic-opinion and/or anti-atheist hit-piece; even a cursory search is enough to demonstrate that 'state atheism' (and similar claims) is an opinionated concept purely a product of these.

Again, the claim itself isn't the main focus of my criticism: it's the selective-reality, rather 'in-group' WP:GAME-er-ly denigrate-and-take-out-the-opposition behaviour around it; were any claim to fulfil WP:V, none of that would be 'necessary'. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 09:49, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Those sources may be necessary to support the proposition that the state in question persecuted religions because of the official religious position was atheism, but it is not sufficient. Otherwise the fact that the UK has an established religion would be proof that they persecute non-Anglicans. So, to the case in point, in order for us as Wikipedians to state that the Soviet Union persecuted religious people because they were atheist it is not sufficient to simply show that atheism was the official position, you also need to show sources that this was the reason they persecuted religious people, exactly as Xenophrenic has been asking per WP:V which is policy. - Nick Thorne ^talk 09:59, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

First, the sources I linked to are netural, reliable sources -- please stop labeling any source that disagrees with your position as "anti-atheist apologist sources" and the like, because they are not. This position and these sources do not attack atheism. At least two admins have found the sources and arguments legitimate enough to keep the category (with a better and NPOV title). The sources linked make clear that it was because of the official state atheist ideology of these nations that they persecuted religious people. State atheism is a real concept, as numerous RSs show at State atheism, it is not synonymous with communism, and it is not an attack on all atheists just like other religious persecutions do not condemn all people who happened to hold the same religion as the persecutors.

However, the more important point is that Xenophrenic disregarded consensus in trying to get his way in this dispute. Two admins found that consensus was against deleting the category and for renaming it and repopulating it. However, Xenophrenic continued to delete the category from various articles, even after the deletion review was not in his favor. As Huitzilopochtli1990 points out, Xenophrenic did 43 reverts in less than 2 hours, and he timed and orchestrated his reverts to avoid making it seem as if he violated 3RR (although he did violate it numerous times). He has a history of such behavior, as Huitzilopochtli1990 pointed out. As seen in his disregarding the established consensus, constant reverts, and massive commenting sprees, Xenophrenic is clearly on a mission to advance his point of view. People disagree on various topics, such as persecution by atheist states apparently, but having strong feelings on it is not an excuse to engage in the behavior that Xenophrenic did.

Arguing about state atheism is besides the point (something I should have realized earlier) in this discussion. This discussion is about whether Xenophranic's behavior worthy of a topic ban, and I submit to the admins that it definately is. --1990'sguy (talk) 19:36, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Even a cursory examination of those sources demonstrates the point of view (opinion!) they originate from, and even a cursory search for 'state atheism' will not turn up anything outside of those 'type' of sources. Even fewer are those who would blame the actions of totalitarian regimes on 'atheism' alone. And providing sources that don't support a claim (eg: a source saying 'the regime did X' 'supporting' a claim that 'atheists did x') is strictly forbidden in Wikipedia.

I can see how reverting the category back to its original state would be 'against consensus', but removing it in its 'new' form from articles where it doesn't apply... if the person doing that can demonstrate their reason for doing so, why are sanctions being called for as an 'answer' to that? Granted, Xenophrenic is persistant, and doesn't seem to realise when he is outnumbered (yet another thing a few have apparently learned to orchestrate), but this in no way merits a topic-ban, especially without examining his points of contention (the origin of 'all the fuss'): by all means, please do do this. Everyone involved seems to be doing (and calling for) everything but that, and upon further examination, the reason for this I'm sure will be quite clear. And I expect accusations to be examined with just as much attention before 'punishment' is meted out.THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 20:59, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Should be noted that, while he didn't want it copied here, on his user page, Xenophrenic responded/rebutted some of the claims in the original post above. May be worth reading. I also want to note that the only ones supporting a topic ban here are those actively engaged with Xenophrenic in one or many fronts. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 05:54, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I will only add that the same could be said of those opposing the ban. The only ones not supporting a topic ban are those who have aligned with Xenophrenic in one or many fronts. Of course other options are available.Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 23:16, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I can 'only' add that a 'they're doing it too (so we're 'equal')' accusation doesn't make a behaviour acceptable (or make any rational sense). I only see two votes opposing a ban so far (and mine is not even technically that), as, as a few seem to have a hard time understanding, voting is not the core of the consensus process, as voting is worth nothing if the WP:V (even behaviour-wise) of an accusation/claim voted on doesn't stand to testing. Again, those with reason and evidence on their side (or are 'siding' with the same) have no need for clan-minded tactics, so no thanks for that passive-aggressive accusation. ThePromenader ✎ ✓ 10:25, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

There are editors on both sides of this discussion (including myself) who were equally involved in the atheist states disputes -- it is not fair to only call out one side and not the other. --1990'sguy (talk) 19:39, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Nowhere did anyone ask for any such thing. By all means, please please please examine all 'involved' parties (and hey, throw me in there, although the trail doesn't go far), and their contributions, too... perhaps that will make it clear where everyone is 'coming from' in their actions (here and elsewhere), if it isn't obvious already. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 20:32, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. I oppose the imposition of sanctions on Xenophrenic as proposed here and to the best of my recollection I have never edited nor expressed an opinion on the talk page of any Wikipedia article about state atheism. I am only involved in this because AN/I is on my watch list and sometimes a discussion thread here piques my interest. I do not appreciate being painted in this manner by the provocatively broad brush being wielded by 1990'sguy. Far too much weight is being given in this whole discussion to counting iVotes and far too little to evaluating arguments. I wonder why that is? - Nick Thorne ^talk 09:19, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I guess no one caught the sarcasm in my comment, which was a throwback of the clan-based accusations others were making. I did mention other options were available (temporary ban + 1RR or 1RR only ) since a permanent ban is one option, not the only one. To me it looks like all individuals here are independent of each other with quite a bit of passionate interest on the topics at hand (why some on both sides keep on popping up in these kinds discussions). It seems that the views on the category is where much of the lines are being drawn, not over Xenophrenic's behaviors such as edit wars and blocks by admins in dealing with hot button topics with other editors. As section title emphasizes, this discussion is about the conduct of an editor, not a rehash of arguments on a category (already been dealt with twice + an appeal already). What for instance, do you guys think about Xenophrenic last block involving 43 reverts in less than 2 hours across multiple pages in a wide edit war (per User:Fram) [149]) just few months ago (February 2017)? Is this acceptable behavior?Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 03:18, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Discussions here are archived automatically every three days without modification, not two. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 17:21, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose topic ban Frankly, at most Xenophrenic deserves a trout for not tip-toeing around the sensibilities of those quite blatantly seeking to impose a POV against policy. I took the time to read through all this and check out the diffs provided, really, there's been a fair amount of bear poking going on. Xeno, you know these guys will not play fair, just cool it man. - Nick Thorne ^talk 06:21, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: For what it's worth, some admins, such as Ad Orientem have supported a topic ban for Xenophrenic on all atheism/religious persecution topics in the past for edit warring and POV pushing: [150] --1990'sguy (talk) 15:15, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose topic ban - Making my position clear, for reasons demonstrated (but don't take my word for it, check these) throughout this discussion. The situation is so evident here that this should not be yet another 'let's ignore the obvious' case of (seemingly convenient) 'counting votes', but leaving it just in case. (PS: I predict the appearance of a 'counter-vote' brigade... but I wouldn't mind at all being wrong) THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 10:16, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
• Comment. I just want to make it clear that I would have initiated exactly the same process here if Xenophrenic had exhibited the same conduct on the opposite side of the issue under discussion (that is, if Xenophrenic had engaged in the same discussion badgering, snideness, and edit warring in favor of the category rather than against it). bd2412 T 04:00, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

So what is arguably the most important Wikipedia policy, WP:V, counts for nothing in your opinion then? Nowhere have I seen you address this point, which is that Xeno was quite rightly asking for those in favour of the category to provide reliable sources to back up the claims made. I understand his frustration at the lack of engagement on this issue. - Nick Thorne ^talk 04:32, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Your criticism doesn't follow from my comment, which was an evaluation of the behavior at issue. Many other participants in the discussion raised the same questions that Xenophrenic did without making demeaning remarks or carrying out dozens of reversions against multiple editors without support of a consensus to do so. Where sources in print have been presented in the discussions on this topic, Xenophrenic has asserted that the authors of those sources were merely pushing an agenda, but Xenophrenic continued with his conduct even after his argument to this effect failed to persuade the community. bd2412 T 13:53, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

So anyone can 'enforce' any claim if their numbers are greater and they 'agree'? Xenophrenic extensively demonstrated that their sources, when they weren't apologietic or anti-atheist hit-pieces expressing an opinion (and 'concept') unshared by historical consensus or any mainstream reference, didn't confirm the article claim. That's pretty damn important. And when a very in-group-behaviour tag-team of contributors (clearly having the same opinion and goals as their 'sources') do their all immediately following the 'authorisation' (that wasn't) of the category judgment to put it in even demonstrably non-related anywhere, that in itself is worthy of examination and completly open to opposition, and that's what User:Xenophrenic did. You can't just pick 'convenient' face-saving bits of reality and 'interpret' them in a way supporting your actions, you have to look at the whole thing. No, you can't just ignore WP:V, and if you ever do go there, you will see that Xenophrenic's actions were justified, as that 'in-group' is trying to use Wikipedia as a platform to present to the world a narrow, agenda-laden anti-other 'interpretation' of history as widely accepted fact. This is strictly forbidden by wikipedia. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 17:17, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Are there neutral and reliable sources describing the referenced sources as "apologietic or anti-atheist hit-pieces expressing an opinion (and 'concept') unshared by historical consensus or any mainstream reference"? bd2412 T 17:29, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Don't deflect. When you search for the claim-term used, and find that it is utterly absent from mainstream references, that pretty well explains itself. And when the only places you find it are of apologetic or anti-atheist authorship, that explains it even more. And when you look at the user pages and contribution history of those pushing that as 'fact', that will explain even more. Have you done any of this? THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 18:18, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I am not deflecting, I am asking for proof that the "only places you find it are of apologetic or anti-atheist authorship", and that the concept is absent where it would be expected to be found in mainstream references. There were sources that were pointed out by participants in the discussion. The sources speak for themselves, and are sufficient to support an article. If there are countering sources, those too can be provided in such an article. It is very much the norm to present notable disputes this way, and we have topics like this on some quite narrow fields. bd2412 T 19:49, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

You are deflecting, as you're the admin who should be doing the verifying here, and it is evident that you haven't done anything beyond take 'arguments' that only sound like they are that at face value. Declaring 'this is a reliable source' does not make a source a reliable one.

But here, I can google for you: state atheism. That's even before the 'captain obvious' that the goal here is to paint 'atheism' in a negative light... and who else makes the 'atheism has killed more than religion' apologist-accusation-claim? That is exactly what's going on here: claiming that all the evils done by dictator-despots were done 'because atheism'? Apologist/anti-atheists, and the authors of those results, when followed up, prove to be opinions overwhelmingly of those categories, and, again, if you examine the contributions of those trying to 'get rid of the opposition' (or: an application of WP:V and tamping of WP:SYNTH (and other policies)) are of the same. There's a few on a real 'mission' to use wikipedia to misinform by painting an 'out-group' they don't like in a bad light, and that has to stop. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 20:36, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the results of your Google search do not support your premise. If you have specific examples of sources that do, please feel free to provide them. bd2412 T 01:14, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

You're asking to prove a negative (when you should be the one providing justification for your actions - you opened this). So 'state atheism' is a commonly used term in mainstream references and history books? Those results clearly shows that it is not. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 04:34, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Look at the State atheism article. It is filled with reliable sources -- not anti-atheist apologitic sources (unless Oxford University Press and other similar publishers have an anti-atheist agenda). --1990'sguy (talk) 16:36, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

• Neutral on Xenophrenic But I'd like to point at the wide ranging aspersions, veiled attacks, and "I'm not saying it, but..."s that have been thrown around by THEPROMENADER. A block for disruption and personal attacks may be in order, or at least a brief topic ban.--v/r - TP 22:32, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

What's funny about this is that I have never to my recollection, beyond adding a single tag, contributed anything to any of the articles in question. And I'm not 'veiling' anything at all: a presentation of fact is not a 'personal attack'; we have a clear case of WP:SOAPBOX and WP:SYNTH going on here, and a blatant one, too, and this abuse (that goes on well beyond this topic) is the focus of my concern. By all means, test all claims, but it seems that everything but that is being done here. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 04:34, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

• CommentThis is about User:Xenophrenic, but all it takes is a cursory glance at the user pages and edit history of 'those who would have him removed' (one of them [151] hosts an 'atheism is bullshit' blog[152], and another announces quite brazenly on their user page how 'wrong' Wikipedia is (compared to 'God's word') [153], another's edit history clearly shows their efforts to whitewash Christianity and paint 'Atheism' in a bad light [154]) to see what he's up against. And the charges against him are a very selective 'interpretation' of events: accusations against User:Xenophrenic abound, but as we can see even in this discussion, no-one can substantiate them. All this amounts to a 'stop him complaining' drive, without, oddly, ever addressing the elephant-in-the-room he's complaining about. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 09:26, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

So now you are throwing WP:PERSONAL attacks at the opposing side? WP:PERSONAL states that "using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views" is considered a personal attack. If the same lie is repeated enough times, people will start believing it. It has been demonstrated that many reliable sources exist about atheist states -- just look at the State atheism article and the links I provided above. Yet, you still reject all the sources as somehow being anti-atheist apologia when they are clearly not the case.

Xenophranic's behavior speaks for itself. His behavior in discussions has been very aggressive and unconstructive, as I think BD2412 has pointed out well,[155][156] and it is persistent behavior, nothing new.[157][158] Xenophrenic has a long block log, and has been blocked so many times that his latest one was two weeks long (it seems that blocks are gradually lengthened if an editor persists in bad behavior). So, ThePromenader, it is true that this discussion has to do with Xenophrenic, and we should keep the focus on him rather than sources, which is irrelevant to this discussion. --1990'sguy (talk) 16:57, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

• Support Topic Ban on articles concerning Atheism/Religion for Xenophrenic This editor has been blocked a total of three times for editing in a POV manner on atheism/religion topics (not to mention countless other blocks). Not only does Xenophrenic contest sources that don't fit his paradigm, he also edit wars after consensus has already been reached on talk pages. Allowing Xenophrenic to continue to edit is only going to waste the time of other editors and cause other articles to be biased with his POV edits. These findings of fact, coupled with Huitzilopochtli1990's research, provide a strong reason to topic ban Xenophrenic. -Plaxie (talk) 21:15, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Convenience break

This thread is now roughly 1/4 of the words on ANI. Having read through this discussion and the CfD that prompted it, it appears to me that the majority of the former is a continuation of the latter, with a side serve of argument about whether being Right excuses behaving Badly. So unless someone proposes a concrete action, backed by evidence supporting that action, in a coherent form, I propose to close this with a warning against edit warring in 24 hours time. Otherwise it is a time sink that is very obviously going nowhere. GoldenRing (talk) 09:16, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

• Can't really disagree with any of the above. I'll add that it's disappointing that Xenophrenic raised several specific objections/rebuttals to claims in this thread on his user page following his block. He also made requests for clarification on the block in light of those claims and later made an unblock request -- none of these look to have received much of a response from either involved or uninvolved admins. Thus the subject of this thread has tried and been unable to respond to defend himself for the entire duration this has been open, and a warning for edit warring seems pretty redundant (presuming you intend it for Xenophrenic). The big open questions, to me, are about numeric majorities pushing OR (whether in good or bad faith) in multiple venues and the behavior of the minority of editors persistent in asking for better sources. We see pretty often editors "behaving badly" in a way that reflects the numeric imbalance. Eventually the user(s) in the minority are blocked or other people notice and get involved. Of course, it can be hard to tell that scenario from one in which the roles are reversed. Anyway, the rest can wait for a separate thread and a separate diff collection if necessary. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:21, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
• I agree with User:GoldenRing that this discussion has wasted too many words that have spilled over from category discussions which have already been dealt with already in two separate discussions + and appeal already. There really is no need for people to still argue over a category here in this ANI report since that is not the reason for the ANI report.

To help bring an end to this ANI report and to adhere to User:GoldenRing's plea for a coherence on this whole mess, lets keep focus on the scope of the ANI report - "conduct" of User:Xenophrenic from the issues User:BD2412 brought up. Since User:Xenophrenic's editing patterns are not new, recent and past behavioral observations (including his block log [159]: the last block from his block log [160] where he got boomeranged over the same topics earlier this year and also the block from July 2016 over the same topics) should be the most relevant factors to decide for an action, if any should be taken.

It seems User:BD2412 had never interacted with Xenophrenic until he closed a category discussion and following that, User:BD2412 experienced persistent disruptive edits and edit warring. User:Swarm seemed to have never interacted with User:Xenophrenic directly either and felt the necessity to block User:Xenophrenic for that type of disruptive conduct. These two admins independently felt the need to somehow sanction User:Xenophrenic for his behavioral patterns recently.

Throughout this discussion numerous editors have commented on User:Xenophrenics behaviors or editing methods and whether or not sanctions are needed. Interestingly, a good chunk of editors who both agree and disagree over sanctions have expressed some concerns or reservations over behavior. Technically, no one has formally defended User:Xenophrenic's behaviors or editing methods as appropriate for how to deal with other editors. Anyways an attempt at a short summary:

• User:BD2412 made the ANI report on User:Xenophrenic's persistent edit warring, timed reverting, and filabustering editors who disagree with him and suggested some type of sanction, at least temporary topic banning
• User:Swarm made the block on User:Xenophrenic for edit warring and tendentious editing and suggested some type of permanent sanction was needed
• User:Rhododendrites commented that though User:Xenophrenic's editing has gotten out of hand recently, no further sanctions are needed aside from the block, given the situation he was in
• User:1990'sguy commented that User:Xenophrenic has edit warred even after an unfavorable decision on a category was made so a sanction like topic banning is viable
• User:S Marshall commented that though User:Xenophrenic seems recently prone to reverting a category on multiple articles, he does not see a reason to extend a block sanction further
• User:desmay commented that it is difficult to see eye to eye with User:Xenophrenic with respect to sources and interpretation of the sources on polarizing topics so sanctions like topic banning is viable
• User:ThePromenader commented that though he does not agree with all of User:Xenophrenic's methods, sanctions for bad behaviour are viable, but not a topic ban
• User:Black Kite commented that though he cannot defend User:Xenophrenic's edit-warring, topic banning someone for a POV that is correct is illogical irrespective of edit warring
• User:Huitzilopochtli1990(Ramos1990) commented that given User:Xenophrenic's recent block history over the past year and a half (last block earlier this year involved User: Xenophrenic doing 43 reverts in 2 hours) and constant edit warring over these topics, sanctions like topic ban or topic ban + 1RR are viable
• User:Nick Thorne commented that User:Xenophrenic does not deserve sanctions like topic banning since he is arguing correctly policy-wise

Throughout this discussion, some sanction options have been suggested:

1) "Topic ban on atheism/religion pages" not clear on long or short topic ban, but this would provide some restraint on edit warring. However, considering recent blocking history, short blocking or banning may not do much as that has already been tried at least 2 times in less than a year and a half (this would be the third time).

2) "Temporary topic ban on atheism/religion pages with 1RR restrictions" to limit the amount of disruptive edits with some time off of wikipedia on these volatile topics and then to restrict potential edit wars with multiple editors by limiting the amounts of reverting that can be done.

Sorry if I missed anything.Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 01:41, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

That very this-is-how-it-is-sounding but "look over here, not over there" selective interpretation of events and positions (I said (too) much more than that!) still isn't what GoldenRing asked for. Johnuniq [1], Rhododendrites [2] and Black Kite [3] have made observations similar to mine, and this is my stand on the matter. It would be unethical to carry out further sanctions without examining the underlying cases, claims and references (thus my 'is not this case' which meant 'not for here', not 'don't look at it'), and for some reason, a few here seem quite worried about that happening. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 07:15, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

PS: A reminder that Xenophrenic, due to his (still unanswered!) block, has been unable to defend themselves in this, which is also unfair and unethical. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 07:21, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

The issue raised was conduct, not a rehash of arguments over a category (this rehashing being way too long is what User:GoldenRing was referring to). So people wasting time arguing over a category here is not the issue - it has already been dealt with in an OPEN discussion + an OPEN appeal on that discussion already so why rehash? The issue raised in the whole section is, is the conduct User:Xenophrenic appropriate? Most editors just try to make their case and settle for the outcome and move on but the amount of disruptive and persistent editing caused by User:Xenophrenic throughout the category discussion and afterwards (including previous blocks over the same behavior in the past) was apparently disturbing enough that 2 admins took the initiative to block him and write an ANI report on his conduct.

In his last block in February 2017 User:Xenophrenic did 43 reverts over multiple pages in 2 hours over atheism/religion pages - is this appropriate behavior? Seems a bit excessive, no? If the atheism/religion topics ignite such persistent disruptive behavior by an editor as it also did on the category discussion recently + after the category discussion had ended + after the appeal to overturn the decision had ended, then should some sanctions like a topic ban and/or 1RR (to stop and/or prevent future disruptive edits) be implemented? This discussion is way too long and really needs to end.Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 09:11, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Several involved here (including myself) do not agree with your 'behaviour only' desires, or even think such self-imposed 'blinkering' even possible.

But while I'm here, you neglect to mention in your 'revert spree' tale that the closing admin stated that the category was 'clearly WP:OR' [161] but, now that I've looked into this further, that didn't seem to bother you and your 'put it everywhere now now now' tag-team in the least, using a convenient-interpretation understated excuse that an admin had 'authorised' the category; they did no such thing. So what you all were doing was tag-team spreading what you knew was demonstrably WP:OR... and, again, Xenophrenic was not alone in removing the contested category (outlined in talk-page link above).

What's most maddening about these no-new-developments but 'look over there' convenient-interpretations-of-partial-reality accusations is that they're clearly made with the intent of keeping this open (and making this, because of the 'that's not how it is' rebuttals such accusations engender, so long and complicated that some beleaguered tl;dr admin just might make expeditive sanctions).

What's going on here is clear to me (and others, as per my previous comment): I really, really, really (really) think that this merits further investigation an arena outside of (and above, even) this already-mess. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 15:01, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

I reiterate: I would have raised exactly the same concerns about Xenophrenic's conduct if he had engaged in the same kinds of badgering, snideness, and edit warring on the opposite side of the issue. bd2412 T 17:28, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

User:ThePromenader, you keep on talking about OR on this discussion in an obsessive manner as if your view is the ONLY one that matters, which again is YOUR view on a category. The fact that there was an OPEN discussion on the category with a lot of time for inputs from many editors and many did not agree with you and on top of that there was also an OPEN appeal on the discussion afterwards and even then people did not agree with you means that you had 2 chances to make your points and try to convince people of your views. It was fair chance. What more could you ask for? Wikipedia is community based. Keep in mind that I voted for a delete too (I was leaning towards YOUR side) with a condition to keep fairness so I did not get what I wanted either, but at least I respected whatever decision came about. The fact that you cannot defend Xenophrenic's behavior on this and your acknowledgement about sanctions for his behavior (but no topic ban), means that the behavioral issue is acknowledged even by you. Actually nearly all the editors opposing a topic ban mentioned issues with his behavior too (edit warring, going overboard on reverting, etc). No one defended it. The end does not justify the means.Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 18:31, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.