Did you approach Winged Blades of Godric about this? He might have relisted. FWIW, I'm not sure the subject is notable, but I think a relist is worthwhile since it was low participation and to consider the sourcing. I also think that it is a horrible practice to redirect a BLP to another BLP (not Godric's fault), so if it is relisted there should be discussion of whether or not a redirect is better than deletion if it is found to be not notable. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:11, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Category:Persecution by atheists – Endorse. Given the subject matter, the length and tone of both the original CfD and this review are not surprising. It is also not surprising that a large part of this review is a rehashing of the arguments from the original CfD. There is an assertion here that the original XfD was marred by WP:SPAs, which spun off into a meta-discussion about the exact definition of a SPA, and whether being an SPA is the same as being a WP:SOCK. My take-away from the entire sub-thread was to conclude that it was not a significant issue. Reading through this entire thing, several times, the only conclusion I can come to is that the community endorses the original CfD close. – -- RoySmith(talk)12:35, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Partial Overturn request of the closer's decision to "rename" a problematic category up for deletion to an equally problematic category name. The close statement does not give any reasoning based on Wikipedia policy or the arguments presented during the Deletion Discussion, and instead referenced only majority, minority and "substantial number" of editors, which to my understanding is not the way to determine consensus. I've asked the closer if he would discuss his reasoning with me, but was told only that I should go ahead and file this review request. I've labeled this as a "partial" overturn, as the closer effectively (1) deleted the discussed problematic category, and (2) created a new problematic category with a slightly different name -- and it is the (2) part that brings me here. If we need to un-close the discussion until we can get a closure based on policy and reasoned argument, that's fine too. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:16, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse fair reading of consensus, there was not a consensus to completely get rid of the concept, but virtually everyone agreed that it was at a problematic name. At an RM this would have been closed by moving it to the option of least resistance which is what was done here, and I consider it appropriate. Before it is pointed out that I edit mainly Catholicism related articles, I want to state that I have no personal opinion on this particular category, and wouldn't mind seeing it be deleted or kept: I can see the arguments on both sides. The question here though is if the close was within the closers discretion and within policy, which I feel it very much was. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:46, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the response, but I've been hopeful that we can steer clear of the "I feel" responses in this matter. If we are all in agreement that consensus is to be determined by reasoned argument and Wikipedia policy, rather than "virtually everyone agreed yada yada this and that", then it should be a quite simple matter to present the actual reasoning behind the decision. Ex.: "The category has been deleted because it violates WP:ZZZ Policy, while the newly created replacement does not violate WP:ZZZ; and further, Arguments #9 and #14 from the discussion, which can be summarized as "______" (and came with reliable source support), were well reasoned and strongly supported deletion, while the counter-arguments #3, #5 and #15 were unpersuasive and unsupported." I've petitioned the closing admin to let me in on his reasoning, but my request was ignored, so I am left in the dark. Since you "can see the arguments on both sides", could you shed some light on what you see as the strongest reasoning (from the discussion, not your own opinion, of course) behind such a decision? Xenophrenic (talk) 21:56, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, then let me rephrase: the close was well within the closers discretion. Policy and sourced based arguments existed on both sides. The strong argument on one side was that it was POV-pushing. The strong argument on the other was that there was some sourcing identifying it with state atheism: the view that it was Communism and not state atheism was brought up, but there was significant enough disagreement on that point to avoid a clear consensus in favour of deletion.There was a consensus that it was at least better to move the title based on the sourcing, and therefore it was moved as the path of least resistance: the current category was agreed to be inappropriate, but it wasn't clear the best way to handle it, therefore the closer implemented the move lacking a clear consensus to delete. CfD is unique from many of the other XfD types in that moves are also handled through it. In this case, I think WP:RMCI gives us at least on idea of the best way to handle things, and I think the close was implemented in the spirit of that guideline, particularly the last paragraph in WP:THREEOUTCOMES. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:13, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Now I'm not sure we're even talking about the same discussion. Policy based arguments existed on both sides, you say? Can you remind me, please, what policy-based reason was given for "Keeping" the problematic category? One side's strongest argument was "POV-pushing", you say? I know for a fact that out of 30 commenting editors, I am the only one on the "delete" side to mention "POV" or "Point of View" (go ahead, type Ctrl-F and do a word search), and I know that wasn't even part of the strongest three arguments. "The view that it was Communism and not state atheism was brought up", you say? I don't see that as an argument anywhere (and please note the closer never mentioned "State atheism", only "atheist states").I was hopeful that you could indicate the (still secret and unrevealed by the closer) actual policies and/or arguments from the discussion used to close it. Still waiting. One cannot proclaim, as you just did, "There was a consensus that it was at least better to move the title based on the sourcing...", while keeping that alleged sourcing a secret. While keeping the required solid reasoning behind that "consensus" determination a secret, especially in light of the much stronger arguments to simply delete, and several strong arguments against that specific rename suggestion. Where is the reasoned explanation as to why the closer selected that particular one of several rename options, when it still violates policy? The closer still has not shared his reasoning with us (beyond counting heads and votes), and your assertion that there was somehow a consensus to rename over simply deleting - without explaining how such a consensus was determined - doesn't advance our understanding. (I've just now re-read the comments made by all 9 respondents (of 30 total) who mentioned renaming, and I'm just not seeing where the closer found anything close to consensus.) Thank you for the links to the "Requested moves" page, but this was a CfD, and since the closer was never "clear that while consensus has rejected the former title ... there is no consensus for the title actually chosen", I find the suggestion dubious that he was following that process. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:02, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Both you [6] and at least one other user [7] made the argument re: Communists/the Soviets not atheists. Others disagreed with your views there. I'm sorry if my words re: State atheism vs. atheist states were not precise, but certainly the meaning was conveyed. Yes, this is CfD, but RMCI gives a much more detailed explanation about how the move process works, and is good practice to follow anytime you are dealing with a close that involves naming disputes. The principles behind WP:THREEOUTCOMES certainly apply to any discussion where renaming is a potential outcome, and considering it here makes sense. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:19, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Both you and at least one other user made the argument re: Communists/the Soviets not atheists. Others disagreed with your views there.
You've misread the discussion at the two links you provided. Neither myself, nor the other editor, made the argument that "Communists/the Soviets not atheists", and neither of us expressed our own views. What we both did was repeat what reliable sources conveyed: that it was the Soviet regimes that persecuted while trying to reach their goal of creating an atheist state. And the others responding to that point, rather than "disagreeing", gave yet another source citation confirming that the Soviet regime was the source of the persecution, and "persecution by atheists" (and now "atheist states") was synthesis. Please re-read the content at those two links and tell me if you still disagree.
... but certainly the meaning was conveyed.
That's the point, you see: What you conveyed was that you thought "one side" was arguing that the Soviet regime was not trying to be "atheist" or an "atheist state", which means you have completely misunderstood one half of the discussion. That was never argued. Since you weren't involved in the CfD, allow me to simply summarize the argument for you: "Persecution by atheists (or atheist states)" is a synthesized (WP:OR) category constructed to misleadingly convey to Wikipedia readers that atheism was the cause of persecution rather than the goal of always totalitarian (and usually communist) regimes. In addition to being an WP:OR construct, the category (including the "atheist states" version) violates WP:OCEGRS and WP:CATDEF. There certainly was not a consensus to rename a policy-violating category to another equally policy-violating category rather than simply delete it, and even at this late date, the closing admin has not shared with us policy-based and argument-based reasons to support his close decision. Even your RMCI procedures require that consensus be developed correctly, instead of this closing admin's appeal simply to head-counts and majorities. Now that you have a clearer understanding of the arguments, perhaps you can explain why you say you "Endorse" the closer's addition to create a new category that has all of the same policy violations of the old problematic category. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:28, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, I should disclose before I start that I'm not neutral on this point. I'm a thoroughly atheist man. Not the wishy-washy kind who sees no evidence for a God and in the absence of evidence declines to believe: I actively have faith that there is no God. And that Richard Dawkins is the True Prophet. And Daniel Dennett is his disciple. I believe that everything evolutionary processes can't explain today, evolutionary processes will be able to explain tomorrow, and there is no need and no role for a giant imaginary beard in the sky.
And now that I've nailed my colours to the wall on that point, I should also disclose that I think that there should be a category for persecution by atheists. We can and do persecute people; and, if it's right and proportionate that we have discrimination against atheists and Category:Discrimination against atheists and Category:Persecution of atheists because a few nations do persecute atheists and have done in the past, then we also need to acknowledge that Iosef Stalin was a thing that happened.
But even though I feel the category should, logically, exist, I do have some concerns about this or any other closure based on that particular debate. It was bad-tempered and confused and acrimonious, full of accusations, and not very source-oriented. (There are good sources and some were mentioned but the debate fell short on reasoned analysis of them.) I think we need to re-do the debate, only better, so the closer gets a more satisfactory discussion to close. Don't re-open that one because by its sheer length it's well-defended against anyone new joining in. Start again from scratch, ask the previous participants to produce a condensed version of their best arguments, and put up some neutral notices in appropriate venues to attract previously uninvolved editors.—S MarshallT/C00:22, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Your personal disclosure has inspired me, so to respond in kind: I've been baptized, circumcised, attended catechism as a child, conducted Bible studies in my youth, married a wonderful Seventh Day Adventist - by a minister, mind you, not by a civil servant, and I led the recital of grace at a crowded family Christmas dinner just last year. I like long walks on the beach, and my favorite commandment is "Thou shalt not kill." With that out of the way, I'd like to address the crux of your comment: "[atheists] can and do persecute people." No doubt, because they are no different than anyone else. Some atheists also fudge on their taxes, fail to make complete stops at Stop Signs, and watch too much television. The point is that none of these actions are caused by their lack of belief in supernatural gods (their atheism). That includes the many despicable acts and persecutions by Stalin. That is according to reliable sources, even many of the few cited by the 'Keep' editors. Even your "True Prophet" Dawkins observes,
"Hitler and Stalin were atheists. What have you got to say about that?" The question comes up after just about every public lecture that I ever give on the subject of religion ... It is put in a truculent way, indignantly freighted with two assumptions: not only (1) were Stalin and Hitler atheists, but (2) they did their terrible deeds because they were atheists ... assumption (2) is false. ... What matters is not whether Hitler and Stalin were atheists, but whether atheism systematically influences people to do bad things. There is not the smallest evidence that it does. Individual atheists may do evil things but they don't do evil things in the name of atheism. Stalin and Hitler did extremely evil things, in the name of, respectively, dogmatic and doctrinaire Marxism... The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins - Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2008 - Pgs. 278; 315-316
Your "we have 'Persecution OF atheists' so it is only fair that we also have 'Persecution BY atheists'" suggestion is well-intentioned, but it is a false equivalency, not logical, and not supported by reliable sources. Persecution of atheists is a thing, while persecution by atheists is not. So how many times do you think we should argue about the "Persecution By atheists/atheism/atheist states" meme in deletion discussions? Once? (Deleted) Twice? (Deleted) Three times? (Cat determined to be Original Research ... and, ...with hindsight I would definitely have closed the CfD as delete. Perhaps someone should re-file the CfD given what has happened since. Black Kite (talk) 17:32, 2 July 2017 (UTC)) Four times? You are suggesting a 5th discussion, starting yet again from scratch? I think the more sensible solution would be to step off this merry-go-'round, scrap the problematic category, and then develop specific "religious persecution" categories based on the preponderance of reliable sources. Thoughts? Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 20:02, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think the flaw in this line of argument is the idea that because a thing doesn't exist, we shouldn't have content about it. That doesn't stand up ---- we're an encyclopaedia; we inform and educate; users self-direct what they want to be educated about; so we need content about things that people search for. Hence the need for articles about bigfoot and moon landing conspiracy theories and, if you'll forgive the religious allusion, intelligent design. People search for stuff about atheists persecuting believers so we need content about it even if the content is purely to debunk ---- because people expect it to be there. And because of that expectation, I think you'll find that if we delete this category, it will be re-created by a good faith user, and we'll have to have the discussion again. Surely it's better to have a category? ---- I also drafted a reply to your remarks about whether atheism really does make some people persecute, which I found very interesting, but I have decided not to post it because it isn't central to my point in this particular debate. I'd welcome a conversation in user talk about that if you have a mind?—S MarshallT/C23:47, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A 'thing that doesn't exist' is a concept, and a concept has a creator and a purpose/use. That is fine if all this information is there for the reader, but a category mentions neither, and I think you'll find that most articles in this 'field' don't, either, and that is a sure sign that those who promote said concept are trying to present it (as a claim) as fact/reality. Such practices are dishonest, non-factual, and have no place in any encyclopaedia. THEPROMENADER✎✓04:53, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Those who promote the concepts of bigfoot or intelligent design are trying to present them as fact/reality as well. Dishonest people are trying to promote non-factual content about bigfoot, and yet I see that category:Bigfoot is alive and well and full of subcategories. If, as you say, this isn't true then it's still important that we tell our readers what's verifiable and what isn't. Simply put, in logic this line of argument doesn't connect with a need to delete the category.—S MarshallT/C18:06, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Atheists exist, and bigfoot doesn't. So if you're right that persecution by atheists never happens, then "persecution by atheists" would be a first-order nonexistent thing, while "attacks by bigfoot" would be a second-order nonexistent thing. See?—S MarshallT/C22:50, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see what adding 'orders' to it changes: if it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. All there is to denote is the claim itself, the fact that it is nothing more than a claim, and the origin of the claim. THEPROMENADER✎✓00:44, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
...the idea that because a thing doesn't exist, we shouldn't have content about it. --S Marchall
That isn't what I (or ThePromenader, I believe) was saying. Of course we can have content (read: "articles") about myths, legends, allegations, fairy tales, and other potential fictions, as long as the reliable sources exist to warrant such articles. Bigfoot is a thing, albeit probably only myth or legend. It exists as a legitimate subject, with a legitimate, detailed and uncontroversial head article, and that is why it has a category. "Persecution by atheists" is not a thing, and neither is "Persecution by atheist states", which is why they do not (or should not) be promoted with Wikipedia categories.
People search for stuff about atheists persecuting believers so we need content about it even if the content is purely to debunk... --S Marshall
No problem, and no disagreement here -- but you are talking about the creation of an article, not a CATEGORY. Categories are different from articles, in that they consist of just a couple words, located at the bottom of pages, with zero context, explanation or "debunking". Because of this, Wikipedia requires that categories must be unambiguous, uncontroversial and must maintain a neutral point of view. (See WP:CATVER for additional explanation.) There is a policy-based reason we don't have Category:Murders by black people, Category:Pedophilia by gay people, etc., even though minimal fringe sources can certainly be found to support such constructs, and the "Persecution by atheists/atheism/atheist states/(__insert atheist-related-description-here__)" is no different.
... if we delete this category, it will be re-created by a good faith user, and we'll have to have the discussion again. Surely it's better to have a category? --S Marshall
Not if this discussion we have now is closed properly. In conjunction with the closer's determination in the previous discussion that the category is a construct of Original Research, a proper close here will ensure that future good faith editors creating similar categories based on fringe notions will have their POV creations speedily deleted. Also, please review WP:CATGRS, and note that Wikipedia requires additional care and sensitivity when creating categories regarding atheism, as opposed to categories on Bigfoot. Do you think there is still a "flaw in the argument"? Xenophrenic (talk) 22:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I really do, on two grounds. Firstly, for the sake of argument I've been stipulating that atheists don't persecute people, and showing that that doesn't lead to deleting the category because a thing doesn't have to exist for us to have a category about it. That remains true. A thing can be unambiguous, uncontroversial, and nonexistent. We have categories for such things and I've linked them. There may well be an excellent argument for the category to exist as a redirect to category:Allegations of persecution by atheists, but I can't find anywhere in the arguments presented thus far an unavoidable pathway from "doesn't exist" to "delete". Secondly, although I've been stipulating that atheists don't persecute people I don't believe it. We do, and we have, and there's a small but genuine body of literature documenting it.—S MarshallT/C23:03, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that the "body of literature" does not exist. Sure, there are websites where someone with an obvious agenda writes their opinion that atheists persecute people, or really misguided accounts of history by very non-reliable sources that suggest there was some difference-in-kind between the way Soviets suppressed religious figures compared with how they suppressed all opposition. Johnuniq (talk) 04:07, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
S Marshall, it appears that the confusion here is mostly due to our understanding of certain words and phrases. When I say that "persecution by atheists" doesn't exist as "a thing", I mean it isn't a concept seriously considered by reliable sources -- unlike your examples of Bigfoot, moon landing conspiracies and intelligent design. When you say they "don't exist", I think you mean they have been "debunked", while when I say it "doesn't exist", I mean as a notable intersection or defining characteristic covered by reliable sources. As for an unavoidable pathway from "doesn't exist" to "delete", simply refer to our Wikipedia policies. Clearer now? One more bit of phrase confusion: "atheist don't persecute people". Please note that no one here says that. Anyone can persecute people, duh. What is being said here, by reliable sources no less, is that persecution is not done because of atheism (an absence of belief in gods). You've seen those 20 or so quoted sources secretly hidden under the "collapse" bar in the CfD discussion, right? Wikipedia creating a category called "Persecution by atheist whatever" blatantly violates Wikipedia's requirement that Categories Must Maintain A Neutral Point Of View. The meme that persecution by atheists is a thing, presented in Wikipedia's voice via a Category tag, is ludicrously not neutral, and also certainly not "uncontroversial". With this clearer understanding of the issue here, are there any remaining "flaws in the argument"? Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 12:46, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Don't be absurd. No one has argued that religious persecution hasn't occurred - it certainly has, so we should have articles about it. Plenty of sources in the far-from-perfect articles you've just mentioned convey that religious persecution happened. Or as you so aptly quipped, "Stalin was a thing that happened." Now there is a certain determined contingent of folks who insist that Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc., inflicted their depredations upon people because those people were "believers", and because the perpetrators lacked that belief in gods. You, S Marshall, have also claimed to lack such beliefs, so tell me (since we're being absurd now), have you marked on your calendar when you will be confiscating church property or exiling a priest from your country? No? Isn't your atheism compelling you to do so? Enough fun; back to our sources. Some people have read in reliable sources that the Soviets had as one of their goals the creation of a society without religion (fact), they have also read that the Soviets have imprisoned clergy (some were even executed), appropriated church lands and wealth for public use, and removed the teaching of religion from public education (fact), and they have read that many of these followers of the Stalinist or Leninist flavor of communism were atheist (fact). People have then taken these facts from these reliable sources and synthesized them into their own incorrect conclusion that the cause of the persecution must be that the perpetrators were atheist. In reality, closer examination of those very same sources revealed that the persecutions had nothing to do with belief in, or lack of belief in, gods. I can go into great detail (again), reliable source by reliable source, on what each says was the real reason and motivations behind the actions, but I'm not supposed to do so in this venue. Perhaps at a user page, as you previously suggested, if you are still interested? Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 15:26, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I actually do advocate "confiscation of church property", in that taxes are confiscation and I advocate that certain churches should pay the same taxes as other commercial organisations. :) You're right ---- we need to continue this in user talk space and I would welcome that. I'm sure we've exhausted the DRV closer's patience by now.—S MarshallT/C16:29, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think that there should be a category for persecution by atheists. [...] I think we need to re-do the debate, only better, so the closer gets a more satisfactory discussion to close. --S Marshall
Neither option of yours, going back to the old problematic category, or re-doing the debate from scratch, is an endorsement of the closer's decision - the rationale for which is still an unrevealed mystery. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:28, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to "Delete" with a caveat that there was discussion of a possible alternative category name, but no consensus here to do so. If this category is deleted, that doesn't stop someone from creating a new category for "persecution by atheist states", which someone else can then take to CfD to have a more focused discussion of that category. With this close, it looks like there was consensus for rename, which would therefore make nominating the new category for deletion difficult.
This was not a discussion of "persecution by atheist states," it was a discussion about "persecution by atheists", and there was a consensus that the latter is an inappropriate category to have. Rename is a viable outcome, but I think that here the rename was a result of searching for middleground, but there wasn't actually consensus for this alternative. In both this and the previous CfD, some participants talked about different possibilities for renaming, and a handful of participants engaged in detailed debate over those. However, I see no consensus to establish a category "persecution by atheist states", and in fact several of the users advocating for that were SPAs (as with the last CfD). I don't want to give the impression this was an unreasonable or supervotey close, to be clear, and want to thank BD2412 for taking on a close all but certain to be a bit messy regardless. To me, leaving it as an evaluation of consensus regarding this category without prejudice against creation of one of the discussed alternatives is the way to go. With a clear alternative title, discussion can be more focused on it. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 05:29, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to "Delete", but more for the (yet unclear) judgment method than for the outcome. Were we to base all judgements on vote-counting and 'proposed alternatives' without examining the quality of the arguments presented, any majority with an evidenceless agenda could push anything at all on Wikipedia. Of course those who 'must' have their evidenceless or selective-opinion-based accusation-category present on Wikipedia in some form (to make it 'truth') can always just start another category under another name (and should it be equally invalid, face opposition once again: tiring, but hey), but without a Wikipedia-administrator 'endorsement' that someone less interested in fact could (fallaciously) cite as 'precedent' in those future discussions. PS: it turns out that that cited 'move consensus' doesn't exist, no matter how one 'does the math'.THEPROMENADER✎✓07:58, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Side Note: Categories and article titles are claims without reference, and I see much abuse of this on Wikipedia: if one creates an even nonsensical yet accusatory category (say, 'blonde assassination tendencies'), they can populate it with perfectly factual articles (articles about X blonde assasinating X person on X date) and it would 'technically' pass all Wikipedia-rule tests, but remain a baseless accusation all the same; the same goes for article titles that are populated by verifiable data that do not directly (or at all) support the title claim. Also, categories and page titles don't mention the source of any claim they make: if the source represents only a minority in an overall larger body of consensus or evidence, the title presented as-is seems, to the reader, to be 'global, accepted fact'; this is yet another 'dishonesty loophole' much-exploited on Wikipedia. I'm not sure where to address this problem, so, although it's larger than this discussion (but still related to it), I thought it worth noting here in case it's read by someone better-informed than I. THEPROMENADER✎✓08:33, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or rename the article Militant atheism and get rid of the redirect for "militant atheism". Wikipedia very much needs a "militant atheism" article and that is the preferred solution. Chinese militant atheists in the Communist Party of China have affirmed to be in their political party you must be an atheists.[8][9] And the Chinese government is actively persecuting Christians.[10]Vladimir Lenin of Marxist-Leninist communism (Soviet Union communism) said: "A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could."[11] The tie between atheistic communism and the persecution of the religious is strong and plentiful.[12][13]Knox490 (talk) 08:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. As a Pandeist, being a minority theological of you, I experience persecution by atheists on a quite frequent basis--usually through mocking misrepresentations of my beliefs. It is theoretically absolutely possible for a communist state to be theistic. The coincidental confluence of communist states with atheism means that persecution by an atheistic communist state is persecution by an atheist state. A non-state organization of atheists can choose to be equally persecutory towards another religious group where it possesses power. Anyway, since there was never any consensus formed for deletion of this category, if it was overturned, that would necessarily result in a keep of the category, and so it seems fair that the closer created a next least worst resolution. Even some folks who preferred deletion were agreeable to the resolution reached. It is telling that the only votes to overturn here come from the most strident opponents of a category in the original discussion, and not from neutral observers. Pandeist (talk) 17:14, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to hear that people have mocked your beliefs, but that is because those people are rude (or bigoted), and not because they are atheist. (I've just checked the definition of atheist to be sure, and there is no requirement that they mock anyone for anything. Atheists simply do not believe in gods. Any "mocking" done is the result of something else; my guess would be bad parenting.) I've a friend with Pandeistic views who has been chided by a Baptist acquaintance; I've never thought to ask if it felt like "persecution". States/regimes/governments (and non-state groups) can certainly persecute anyone or any group, and I doubt anyone would argue against that fact. But even the Soviet Union at the height of their anti-religious campaign, as reliable sources and history show, didn't persecute because they lacked a belief in gods. This discussion is about a category that implies religious persecution by atheists because of their atheism, which doesn't exist, and is a nonsensical concept on its face when you consider it. You've stated, "there was never any consensus formed for deletion of this category", which is of course only your opinion - one shared by the closer of the discussion, and not shared by several other editors above. And the only way to accurately determine the consensus is to review the reasoned arguments and policies upon which the close decision was founded - but such information is thus far not being shared for some reason. (And by the way, we don't implement "next least worst" solutions if they, too, violate Wikipedia policies and guidelines.) Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 20:02, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
One friend chiding another is a far cry from a group of strangers ganging up to belittle somebody's entirely reasonable theological beliefs over the Internet. Anyway, as to the above, it is essentially a mathematical outcome. Consensus is pretty much universally defined as "general "agreement. Even our own Wiktionary defines consensus as "a process of decision-making that seeks widespread agreement among group members," or "general agreement among the members of a given group or community." This means pretty much everybody agrees, not where there is a slim majority in agreement. And so, if there is no consensus here, then we are right back to the old category. Pandeist (talk) 20:46, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is absolutely not "essentially a mathematical outcome". I can't believe so many editors have such a gross misunderstanding of how consensus is determined on Wikipedia. See the response below to 1990s'guy for the actual policy wording explaining that mathematics and majorities have nothing to do with determining consensus here. Also, your personal interpretations based on personal experiences, while moving, aren't of any use to us here. Your input here should be about whether the closer's decision is supported or not, and why. Making unsupported, dubious assertions like "Even some folks who preferred deletion were agreeable to the resolution reached", are unhelpful (and apparently this one is demonstratively false). Also, a "no consensus" here could result in relisting the deletion discussion, as clearly explained in our Deletion Review instructions. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:28, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
overturn to keep, but failing that, endorse outcome The problem I see in this is the rather Solomonic solution of trying to adjudicate the question of whether persecution by governments in the name of suppressing religion in the name of atheism counts as persecution by atheists. This collapses into the question of whether persecution by officials for official purposes counts as persecution by the holders of the stance to which they ascribe, an issue which also came up in the other "persecution by" categories. What drove the discussion, though was the assertion that the beliefs of atheists are special, so that it doesn't count when persecution occurs in the name of atheism because atheism isn't an organized thing. My impression is that the rename that ended up with is not what anyone asked for, so in that wise I have to push for overturn; but deletion of the category entirely because somehow none of the activity involved had something to do with atheism: that's a POV problem. Maybe we need to find another name for that association, but it was certainly there, and claims about the nature of atheism (which aren't representative of scholars of religion, BTW: they tend to treat it in some respects as like an unorganized faith system) aren't material. rethinking this Mangoe (talk) 17:04, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Mangoe: A minor point re: "the rename that ended up with is not what anyone asked for". Six different editors in the discussion (Renzoy16, Desmay, Omar Ghrida, Eliko007, Majoreditor, and Moataz1997) specifically asked to "Keep and Move to Category:Persecution by atheist states"; a seventh, Marcocapelle, voted to delete "with the side comment that some of the past content may be preserved in a new Category:Religious persecution by secular governments", which is pretty close to that. Two other editors, Mangoe and 1990'sguy, supported renaming without specifying a new name (though it was clear in context that they meant the rename as proposed by the others). I didn't come up with the rename out of thin air, but from the considered responses in the discussion, which represented the majority of editors voting "keep" in some fashion. bd2412T17:15, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Six different editors suggested a move (while voting for an as-is 'keep' that they knew wouldn't stand to testing, thus the suggestion), and your eight total (to consider against the 14 votes for outright 'delete') can in no way be considered 'consensus to move' (with admin 'help', to boot!). And still, even after repeated questioning, you only cite (convoluted) vote-counting as a rationale for your decision without addressing in the least the validity of the content (category name) being contested. Wikipedia can do without judgments like that, because, as I said elsewhere, it allows anyone with a majority to 'push' whatever agenda they please, no matter how non-factual. THEPROMENADER✎✓22:10, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
bd2412 is correct that Mangoe misread the discussion: "Persecution by atheist states" was indeed offered as a category name, and not by bd2412. "Religious persecution under totalitarian regimes" and "Religious persecution by secular states" were also offered as alternative category names. I would really like to hear the reasoning (without mentioning numbers, votes or majorities) behind the conclusion that (1) consensus to rename out-weighed consensus to simply delete, and (2) consensus to chose "atheist states" as a rename target out-weighed "secular states" or "totalitarian regimes". Mangoe also misread the discussion and automatically assumed that "persecution occurs in the name of atheism", as an actual fact to be automatically assumed, when the discussion clearly conveyed that reliable sources refute that unsourced assertion. Mangoe also let slip that Religion scholars (in fact, most religionists, religion apologists, theologians, and some Wikipedia editors) "tend to treat [atheism] in some respects as like an unorganized faith system" or a competing religion to be denegrated, which is of course a mischaracterization. Creating categories to perpetuate that myth violates policy. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As noted previously in this discussion, there was no consensus to delete. There was, however, a clear consensus that a change to the status quo ante would be favored. Among the possibilities offered, "atheist states" was by far the most frequently mentioned, and is basically synonymous with the other alternatives, and not exclusive of them. It was also documented in the discussion that there have historically been "atheist states" (we have a Category:Atheist states, after all), and there have been instances of persecution of practitioners of religions or religious institutions in these states by organs of the state. That is a reasonable basis for a category encompassing such instances. bd2412T23:24, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Even if there was no consensus to delete (and even this description hinges on an ambiguous 'interpretation' of consensus), the very reason for the deletion motion was totally ignored. At least now you admit that you side with the category's claim, but what you have done is grant the minority opposing the deletion the 'same claim to a lesser degree' that they themselves suggested, all while ignoring the deletion-supporting majority and the reason why (and demonstrations of (lack of) evidence supporting) the delete motion was opened in the first place. THEPROMENADER✎✓00:44, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You misunderstand. I do not "side with" the category's claim; I am merely pointing out that evidence supporting the existence of the category was produced during the discussion. The fact that the proponents of deletion of the category were unable to persuade a clear consensus of participating editors—despite certain participants vociferously challenging every comment to the contrary—is not subject to remediation by appeal to the strength with which the desire for that outcome was felt. As for the interpretation of consensus, that is a very difficult thing indeed, particularly in extended discussions like the one at issue. Fortunately, my interpretation is informed by the experience of closing hundreds of these discussions. If you feel as well qualified, you are, of course, welcome to seek adminship yourself. bd2412T00:55, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I do not misunderstand; I'm trying to bring you to understand a point, one that you've done your best to skirt so far, but we're getting you slowly there. So, that 'evidence supporting the existence of the category', did it check out? Can one find it in any mainstream reference, and does it reflect historical consensus? No? Okay, that demonstrated, does the proposed alternative name (never mind that this shouldn't even be an option) check out as well, and if it doesn't, does it at least include the origin of the claim? No? So why are you endorsing it, especially since they represent the minority opposition (with no case) in this?
The 'inability to sway' is a foregone conclusion when one is dealing with people who won't examine evidence even when they're buried in it, and the here and now is a reflection of those 'hundreds of past decisions'; it's not the other way around. No doubt I will be an admin one day, most likely during my retirement years. THEPROMENADER✎✓05:26, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, your numbers are a bit off. There were not fourteen votes for "outright delete", but twelve. Three "delete" votes came with a caveat: Marcocapelle, "with the side comment that some of the past content may be preserved in a new Category:Religious persecution by secular governments"; Ramos1990, "Delete IF other similar 'Persecution by..' categories are removed, otherwise Keep for consistency" (the other categories have not been removed, making this a "Keep"); and Mr. Guye, "I actually agree with the current category's concept, but right now it is empty". Laurel Lodged also did not vote "delete" but voted, "Agree with Procedural proposal", which was a proposal that expressly acknowledged that "Category:Persecution by atheist states" could be made, and discussed later. I can assure you that we're not "slowly getting" to the point where you'll convince me that twelve straight "delete" votes is two thirds of the 29 who participated. bd2412T11:06, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm slowly getting you to address what you skipped in your 'selective' judgment, a point that you totally ignore in your answer thath seemingly tries to deflect from it, and you're the one bringing up numbers, not me: my point was to demonstrate that what you called 'consensus for a move' could not be consensus no matter how many times you repeat your 'math'. So, rather than answer my points, you retreat to selective-reality refuge-in-ambiguity square one.
And what's going on here is clear, but to make it even more so: if the claim you support were a factual one, you could just say: "look guys, it's a real thing, a term used widely in every encyclopaedia and historical consensus, so you have no reason to contest it." But you have done everything -but- that, and even ignored a demonstrable majority to give a minority of evidenceless-claim pushers what they want (and repeating your math still does not make it add up to 'consensus to move'). And, as metioned below, some of those 'keep' (but if that fails, rename) votes were SPAs, but that doesn't seem to figure into your 'calculation' (or even your writ) even now. In all, your judgment in this is demonstrably selective and convoluted, yet you dig in all the same... that is not honest behaviour. Again, it is your judgment that I am calling into question here (reminder: because even if delete passes, anyone can start a new category): Wikipedia has a hard enough time being taken seriously as a source, largely because of soapboxing agenda-pushers, and you're aiding and abetting them here. THEPROMENADER✎✓12:18, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If you think that some of the votes in this discussion were by SPA's, please present evidence to this effect, and please WP:NOTIFY the accused editors. Since we have otherwise come to circular argument, I see no further point in engaging with you on this topic. The discussion speaks for itself. Cheers! bd2412T12:49, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
How can a discussion be circular if you refuse to address anything? Once again, you focus on but one point of my writ in ignoring all its questions. And you many-times counted these votes to justify your move (even though the total is not enough to justify anything at all). So here you ignored the majority, validated neither claim nor vote of the minority (yet granted an even fewer of these their 'back up plan' should their opposition fail), made no justification for your decision outside of a convoluted-explanation 'math' that doesn't add up at all... well, not only have you demonstrated your own bad judgement, but by refusing to address any of these points (with only partial-reality distract-answers), you've demonstrated an intellectual dishonesty (that coincides quite nicely with the contested claim's). And hey, none of my points is my 'opinion', they are a demonstration of fact: test any and all of them for yourselves. Agenda-serving 'because I say so (and damn the facts)' judgements such as yours are the last thing Wikipedia needs. THEPROMENADER✎✓14:13, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am merely pointing out that evidence supporting the existence of the category was produced during the discussion. --BD2412
Could you point out, specifically, that evidence? I do see a couple of attempts to provide such evidence, but those were soundly refuted (just as some almost exact attempts were refuted as synthesized Original Research in the previous closed discussion), but I don't see any actual evidence in support. Even if actual legitimate evidence were introduced now, it would only serve to elevate the issue from refuted to "controversial and contested", and Wikipedia doesn't allow controversial categories to be created that advance such a one-sided POV. Xenophrenic (talk) 13:01, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't it a bit self-serving to assert that those "attempts" were "soundly refuted" when the proposed refutation is merely your own argument against those points—argument which failed to persuade the editors against whom they were made? Editors seeking a change to the status quo ante bear the burden of persuasion. That burden was not carried here. My close was merely an acknowledgement of that fact. bd2412T13:40, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well I guess we won't know until we examine this mysterious supporting evidence you claim exists -- and that you claim I (or anyone else) failed to refute. Start small and easy: just present the very strongest piece of evidence from the discussion (generously assuming there is more than one piece) upon which you supported your decision. That is why this review was opened, after all. I don't intend to re-litigate the whole damn thing over again; I just want to understand what reasoning actually supports your close decision. (Alternatively, we can skip past "reasoned arguments" requirements for now and examine your "policy-based arguments", and hear your reasoning on how your newly-created category doesn't also violate WP:OCEGRS, WP:CATDEF and WP:OR. Xenophrenic (talk) 16:09, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure you are aware that your own exchanges in the discussion with Huitzilopochtli1990 and desmay address exactly such supporting evidence. bd2412T02:44, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Odd that you don't mention the (quality of) the evidence itself; were it evidence of anything, it would make a case that could be repeated here (instead of vaguely asserting 'there is evidence'), no? THEPROMENADER✎✓03:48, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm calling your bluff, BD2412 - Reproduce here just one piece of that evidence you just said exists in the discussion (I recommend the strongest piece), that you used to support your decision. It is my understanding of those discussions that the sources produced either blatantly failed verification of the attributed points, or required serious WP:SYNTH gymnastics to have them say what desmay and Huitzilopochtli1990 wished they would say. Why all the feet-dragging on what should be an easy and routine matter to substantiate your position? Xenophrenic (talk) 21:31, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Six different editors in the discussion (Renzoy16, Desmay, Omar Ghrida, Eliko007, Majoreditor, and Moataz1997)... -- Even if the number of !votes carried weight (vs. the policy arguments each brought), 3 of those 6 are effectively SPAs, with few other edits to other subjects (and they were not the only SPAs participating here)... — Rhododendritestalk \\ 00:09, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing was overlooked here; the assertion is flatly incorrect. None of these editors fits within WP:SPA; in fact, most of them have literally thousands of edits across the various Wikimedia projects. However, @Rhododendrites: since you have made this accusation, I would welcome you to please WP:NOTIFY these editors so that they can have a fair opportunity to speak for themselves against this charge. Cheers! bd2412T12:13, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's clever. Did you just cite a user essay in lieu of directly asking someone to ping several editors likely to support your position? By the way, I also recognize editors who are effectively SPAs in the CfD discussion (and no, I won't be pinging any specific editors for you either), but you miss the salient point of his comment: the number of votes you manage to accumulate to nod in unison with you is not relevant. We need to see the Wikipedia policies & the well-reasoned arguments that support your as yet still unsupported close decision. Xenophrenic (talk) 13:27, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A very well-regarded essay. Do you think that it is appropriate to make accusations against other editors behind their backs? bd2412T13:41, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't the venue to charge a specific editor of inappropriate behavior, and neither I, nor anyone else, has yet done so. There are Administrator noticeboards for that, should the need arise to single out editors. We need to see the Wikipedia policies & the well-reasoned arguments that support your as yet still unsupported close decision. Can we get to that now? Xenophrenic (talk) 15:44, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is highly inappropriate to identify six editors by name and say that "3 of those 6 are effectively SPAs", which levels a vague insinuation of inappropriate behavior against all six of them. This is particularly so where none of the named editors is an SPA. I suspect you would act differently towards such an insinuation if your name was included in such a list. As for the policy supporting my close decision, WP:CONSENSUS, and TonyBallioni has already pointed to WP:THREEOUTCOMES. It has also already been pointed out that the consequence of overturning my close will merely be that Category:Persecution by atheists will be restored. bd2412T16:09, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You appear to misunderstand. We are trying to understand what specific policy-based reasoning from the discussion, if any, you used to form your WP:CONSENSUS close decision. I'm shocked that the process needs to be explained to you, but here goes. Per Closing Discussion Instructions - Determining Outcome section: Many closures are also based upon Wikipedia policy. As noted above, arguments that contradict policy are discounted. Wikipedia policy, which requires that articles and information be verifiable, avoid being original research, not violate copyright, and be written from a neutral point of view is not negotiable, and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus. A closer must determine whether any article violates policy, and where it is very unlikely that an article on the topic can exist without breaching policy, it must be respected above individual opinions. As you know, the nominator of the category for deletion explained that it was in violation of Wikipedia policy. Editors in the ensuing discussion noted additional policy violations. Further, the closer of the previous CfD determined the category also violated one of our core pillar policies. You are now being asked to explain your Close Decision reasoning, based on these policy concerns from the discussion, with regard to the category you deleted and the new one you created. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:08, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There is no breach of policy to have a Category:Persecution by atheist states where there are atheist states and documented instances of persecution carried out by these states. The fact that arguments can be articulated against such a category does not magically make the category impermissible; the arguments must be persuasive, and here they failed to persuade the community. The desire of members of a group to prevent the existence of a permissible category perceived as negative towards that group does not overcome the failure to persuade the broader community that this permissible category should not exist - this approaches WP:NOTCENSORED as a principle. You would do well to note that every previously uninvolved participant in the current discussion has endorsed the close. When every neutral observer reviewing the matter disagrees with you, at some point you should wonder if maybe it's you. bd2412T21:46, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You seem quite intent on examining/distracting from everything -but- the evidence. Where does the phrase "atheist state" appear almost exclusively? Opinionated anti-athiest hit-pieces (and here)! And the term appears nowhere in any mainstream reference...this is not evidence of anything?
I'm only a rare contributor to wikipedia these days, so you can consider me as one of those 'uninvolved', but I have a pet peeve about Wikipedia being used (abused) to present, 'endorse', 'authorise' and advertise an opinionated (and often inventive) agenda as 'truth' (and this goes well beyond this topic). Whether through ignorance, laziness or by design, you're helping that 'cause' at this point. THEPROMENADER✎✓03:48, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
By uninvolved, I mean uninvolved in the previous discussion, not uninvolved in Wikipedia generally. Editors who frequent deletion review, but had no involvement in the category deletion discussion under review, have uniformly endorsed the close. On a lighter note, if you think that the existence of a category promotes an agenda, then you sorely overestimate the impact that Wikipedia's categorization scheme has on the real world. bd2412T04:12, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Every previously uninvolved participant", you say, "uniformly endorsed" your close? Let's skip past your problematic head-counting and examine their actual arguments, shall we? Note that they all posted their "endorsement" before you typed your first word here at this review. Which means they all had zero knowledge of your reasoning and justifications, and therefore likely didn't care - they liked your end result, not your decision process, of which they were still clueless, and which we are actually supposed to be discussing here. I don't think I'd be waving their endorsements around too proudly, as it really isn't much of an achievement to get people to say "me too!" without any substantiation, if it is a result they prefer. One of your "endorsers" actually admits, "I do have some concerns about this or any other closure based on that particular debate", and wants a do-over, albeit from scratch because he finds the length of discussion intimidating. Another of your "endorsers" exclaims, "Anyway, as to the above, it is essentially a mathematical outcome." Okay, so you've found a like-minded individual who agrees that consensus should be determined by math. Facepalm You already know my (and Wikipedia's take on that). Xenophrenic (talk) 23:12, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I meant too (of course), and I just demonstrated that I can even take 'uninvolved' a step further. Nowhere did I mention 'just categories', as the WP:SOAPBOX problem goes way beyond that. These (strawman) distractions aside, how about the rest of what I just said? THEPROMENADER✎✓06:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not there is a problem that goes beyond categories, this discussion is about a category, which is ultimately merely a tool for organizing articles. We have, for example, a Category:Lawyers from Tulsa, Oklahoma. It may be that some people from Tulsa are aware that lawyers poll very poorly among the professions, and would therefore like to get rid of this category. Furthermore, there is no academic literature focused on lawyers from Tulsa, and it is likely that some members of the category are there merely because they 1) are in some sense "from" Tulsa, and 2) have been a lawyer at some point - even if they were only briefly lawyers, or if practicing law is not at all what they were notable for, or if they never practiced law in Tulsa at all. There is no "aha!" moment that can be drawn from the existence of the category. This is why Wikipedia has literally hundreds of thousands of categories, probably a majority being for relationships that are never independently the focus of study or examination. bd2412T15:48, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"... category, which is ultimately merely a tool for organizing articles."
Yep, that is what it is supposed to be, but it is also a claim without a reference, and a few have learned to abuse that. Here, it is being used as an ('atheists are bad people who do bad things') accusation, whereas your lawyer example does not do that at all. Your example is doubly bad (and borderline disingenuous) because lawyers are a real thing that exist in all forms of reference, whereas the atheist state you moved the category name to is an inventive concept present exclusively in apologist and anti-atheist hit-pieces. THEPROMENADER✎✓17:41, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, so you're saying that there is no such thing as a state that made atheism it official religious/theological view? Of course anti-atheists like to talk about atheist states, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The State atheism article is well-sourced on this front, and Desmay provided several sources below -- besides, it's common knowledge that the USSR, other communist states, and Revolutionary France at some points (and some other countries, I think, such as Mexico), all officially endorsed atheism and persecuted certain religious people/groups. Of course facts can be used to attack others, but we don't censor the facts in order to avoid this. I don't think abybody here is arguing that because of these historical realities, all atheists today in the West are terrible people, just like the Inquisition does not condemn all Roman Catholics as terrible people. --1990'sguy (talk) 20:45, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So, what exactly is the motive for extracting 'atheism' from these decidedly negative events in human history and presenting them under the 'atheism' banner (with no mention of the rest (the totalitarianism most of them were))? That behaviour explains itself.
No amount of sophistry will change the fact that the 'state atheism' and 'atheist persecution' concept-inventions exist only in apologist and anti-atheist opinion pieces (that are neither 'well source-able' nor 'common knowledge'). Historical consensus does not echo these claims, and Wikipedia is not a WP:SOAPBOX for (demonstrably anti-atheist) 'interpretations' of history. THEPROMENADER✎✓22:14, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So I support a category organizing examples of persecution by states that made atheism the official religious/theological view, and now I'm being accused of having "(demonstrably anti-atheist) 'interpretations' of history"? I consider that a WP:PERSONAL attack -- attacking atheism is not on my agenda list. If you want a category entitled "Religious persecution by Christian theocratic states" or something like that, go ahead. Besides, if (as you appear to claim) not a single state in history made atheism the official religious/theological viewpoint, why don't you nominate the article State atheism for deletion as a POV promotional article that lacks any reputable sources? (and I'm being partially sarcastic -- the article has plently of good, reputable sources that have zero to do with anti-atheist apologetics -- the sources that Desmay cited are also reputable) --1990'sguy (talk) 22:39, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Besides, this category organizes religious persecution by atheist states, so the religious descriptor (atheism) is appropriate. Of course, many atheist states were totalitarian (with the exception of Mexico and possibly a few others -- totalitarianism and state atheism are not mutually inclusive), but we're talking about religious persecution by states that made state atheism the official religion. Religion and religious viewpoints played an essential role in these religious persecutions -- of course, politics and ambition make these matters messy; I know that many people involved in these persecutions did not have promoting atheism as their main goal, but that does not detract from the fact that many officially atheist states persecuted adherents of theistic religions. --1990'sguy (talk) 22:47, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If you think that some of the votes in this discussion were by SPA's, please present evidence to this effect, and please WP:NOTIFY the accused editors. -- It's not an accusation, it's an observation. 3 of the accounts have 100-200 edits each (and the 200 had closer to 100 when he/she joined the first CfD), and few edits outside of a constellation of subjects related to this category. It's awfully unusual for editors with 100 edits to find these threads in so many different places, but an assumption of bad faith is not required -- the fact is, they are accounts with few edits outside of this subject and hence SPAs. It's worth investigating socking, but if I do make such an accusation I will be sure to notify them. Regardless, that doesn't itself mean it was closed incorrectly, but you've several times pointed to numbers and I think the fact that they're SPAs is relevant (and they're not the only SPAs in the thread). — Rhododendritestalk \\ 01:51, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Still SPAs. It's misleading to say that e.g. Omar Ghrida has 16k edits when they are all on other wikis. That doesn't change the fact that they're an SPA. They're users that don't typically edit on enwiki except to opine on this subject, related subjects, and "few or no others". If I somehow found out about a deletion discussion about this very subject (or any other) happening on arwiki and logged in there to !vote, what separates me from any other SPA who shows up there? I didn't show up because I wanted to build the arwiki encyclopedia; I showed up for a single purpose. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 03:21, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If you had accumulated a few dozen edits in arwiki over a two year period, your participation in a discussion after that time would not reasonably be characterized as having "showed up for a single purpose". We don't deem experienced editors within the Wikimedia project as SPAs merely because they edit in other projects. Furthermore, Omar Ghrida, for example, had a few dozen edits on English Wikipedia before opining in this discussion. He certainly wasn't editing here beginning over two years ago as part of a scheme to wait for this discussion to come up so that he could opine in it. bd2412T04:04, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If I jump over to a Wikipedia I don't normally edit just to !vote in a CfD (and have "few or no other edits"), I am an SPA, regardless of my edit count elsewhere. SPA isn't just about experience with Wikipedia, it's about intent -- are you participating because of an interest in building an encyclopedia or for some other reason? Doesn't mean we toss out what they say, obviously, and doesn't mean it's in bad faith, but the same can be said for any SPA. The only reason I bring it up here is in response to the !vote count above. But this is already a prohibitively long thread as it is and this is turning into a tangent, so I'll leave it at that. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 05:18, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I took at look at Omar Ghrida's contributions, and he has edited numerous different projects. He has 549 edits in the French Wikipedia, 712 WikiData edits, 165 edits at Wikimedia, and 21 edits at Commons. He seems to focus on the Arabic Wikipedia but sometimes edits the different projects. This is far from being an SPA. --1990'sguy (talk) 21:02, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't mean they're discounted, but it means If I had a few other edits on enwiki, then I would have "few or no other edits"
Endorse closure decision to rename: in the original CfD, while most people on both sides found the original name to be problematic, there was no consensus to delete the category outright. Numerous editors voiced support for renaming the category to essentially what the current name is. The current category name solves all the problems of the original name -- we can easily track and verify acts of religious persecution by official states that officially endorse atheism without violating NPOV or any other relevant guideline. We have similar categories, such as Category:Religious persecution by communists. These categories do not imply that atheists (or communists) are inherently more inclined to violence and persecution than other religious/political/etc. groups. --1990'sguy (talk) 23:07, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
1990'sguy, when you step in here and declare (as if it were actually true) that "there was no consensus to delete the category outright", without presenting the required Wikipedia policy and/or reasoned argument to substantiate that dubious claim, you are not helping to advance this discussion any more than the closing admin is when he makes that same dubious claim without explanation. In addition, your assertion that "The current category name solves all the problems of the original name" has already been shown to be false, as both names equally and grossly violate Wikipedia policy (WP:OCEGRS and WP:CATVER at a minimum), so it surprises me that you would even try to claim such a thing. Creating a category "Persecution by (__insert any variation involving atheism here__)" absolutely DOES "imply that atheists are inherently more inclined to violence and persecution". Did you think readers would not catch your denial of that? Xenophrenic (talk) 12:46, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Xenophrenic, just take a look at the CfD. There was no consensus. Many editors opposed deletion, and many supported renaming the category. Contrary to what you claim, my statement that the current category name solves all the problems of the previous name is not "false", as the admin who closed the previous CfD also made clear (and no, I highly doubt that the closing admin is some Christian apologist or anything like that). And no, "Persecution by atheist states" does not imply that atheists are more inclined to persecution than other people -- we're talking about atheist states (state entities that officially endorse atheism), NOT atheist people. We can argue all we want whether atheist states really are atheist or acting in an "atheist-like" way, but that is a different discussion than over whether states that officially endorse atheism have persecuted religious people. --1990'sguy (talk) 18:27, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There was no consensus. Many editors opposed deletion, and many supported renaming the category. --1990'sguy
Now you are sounding like the closer of the discussion, which is not productive. "Many editors yada yada..." is not how consensus is determined. Wikipedia policy is clear:
Wikipedia:Consensus: consensus is determined by the quality of arguments (not by a simple counted majority), polls should be regarded as structured discussions rather than voting. Responses indicating individual explanations of positions using Wikipedia policies and guidelines are given the highest weight.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion: Consensus is not based on a tally of votes, but on reasonable, logical, policy-based arguments.
Wikipedia:Deletion policy: These processes are not decided through a head count, so participants are each encouraged to explain their opinion and refer to policy.
Wikipedia:Closing discussions: Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but neither is it determined by the closer's own views about what is the most appropriate policy. The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue.
Stomping your feet and declaring "Waaaa, there was/wasn't consensus!", without providing the actual reasoning based on policy and argument, is not helpful to us here in a Deletion Review. (And everyone knows that when you create a category that says "Persecution by XXX", the undeniable implication is that XXX is the source/cause/motivation of that persecution.) Xenophrenic (talk) 21:08, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Does it look like to you that there is a consensus to delete? You demand evidence that there is no consensus -- it's pretty clear to me that there is (look at the number of editors on each side, including those supporting renaming the article), so I request that you provide evidence proving my position (and that of the closing admin, who, once again, seems quite experienced and has no discernable bias) wrong. --1990'sguy (talk) 21:49, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
... consensus -- it's pretty clear to me that there is (look at the number of editors on each side... - Really, 1990s'guy?!? That isn't how consensus is determined on Wikipedia. Please read my previous comment to you, and pay particular attention to the policy links explaining to you how consensus is determined. (Wait - are you just trolling me? Well done, you got me!) Xenophrenic (talk) 23:14, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I will admit, I was rushed when writing the comment, so I did not bother to read as closely as I should have. However, this makes no difference in my point because you seem to be claiming that the other side's arguments are so bad that they cannot be taken seriously, thus making the consensus in favor of deletion. This claim is silly, as the closing administrator did not find the opposing side to have bad arguments, at least so bad as to delete the category outright without renaming it. The arguments made by the other side (my side) were reasonable, and there several editors on my side. --1990'sguy (talk) 23:47, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I knew when I read "you seem to be saying" that I was in for a novel, and quite wrong interpretation. Can we please stick with what I actually said? Here: when you step in here and declare (as if it were actually true) that "there was no consensus to delete the category outright", without presenting the required Wikipedia policy and/or reasoned argument to substantiate that dubious claim, you are not helping to advance this discussion any more than the closing admin is when he makes that same dubious claim without explanation. I hope I don't need to explain to you that categories that violate policy automatically have "consensus" to be deleted. What else did I actually say? Here:
In addition, your assertion that "The current category name solves all the problems of the original name" has already been shown to be false, as both names equally and grossly violate Wikipedia policy (WP:OCEGRS and WP:CATVER at a minimum), so it surprises me that you would even try to claim such a thing. Creating a category "Persecution by (__insert any variation involving atheism here__)" absolutely implies that's the source/cause/reason for that persecution. The reliable sources, including those from the "Keep" folks, place the blame with the totalitarian regime as the source (regardless of whether it is an "atheist state" or not) in all of our discussed examples. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:31, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
endorse many atheist states have historically persecuted people of faith in accordance with that doctrine.
Some source - "STORMING THE HEAVENS: THE SOVIET LEAGUE OF THE MILITANT GODLESS" by Daniel Peris (Cornell University Press) - The Plot to Kill God: Findings from the Soviet Experiment in Secularization" By Paul Froese (University of California Press) - "The New Atheist Denial of History" by Borden Painter (Palgrave Macmillan) - "Godless Communists: Atheism and Society in Soviet Russia, 1917-1932" by William B. Husband (Northern Illinois University Press) - The Pew Research Center which shows that after the fall of communism religious identification increased because of atheist repression of religion during the Soviet rule.-
all the historical reliable sources provided (none of which were from religious apologists - by the way - but by practicing historians), clearly relate atheists and/or atheism with goals that affected the destiny and unfortunate fate of religious people and religious institutions. The support of the state simply helped accelerate the attempts to reach atheist influenced anti-religious goals. One source, Pew, even showed increase in religiosity and decrease in irreligiosity and atheism after fall of the USSR which indicates some relief from repression since switching occured. Painter, who is an active historian reviewed such a claim a found it to be historically incorrect in light of historical scholarship.
closer examination of the numerous academic sources provided (Peris, Husband, Marsh, Froese, Painter, etc) show extensively that there were active attempts by atheists, with the help of government power, to actively persecute religious people and institutions and also to actively promote atheism to the masses (via atheist organizations, literature, legislation, teaching atheism in school, proselytizing for atheism, etc) to enforce worldview-control, not just political or economic control.desmay (talk) 16:24, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Duplicate copy&paste content
Endorse many atheist states have historically persecuted people of faith in accordance with that doctrine. Some sources - "STORMING THE HEAVENS: THE SOVIET LEAGUE OF THE MILITANT GODLESS" by Daniel Peris (Cornell University Press) - The Plot to Kill God: Findings from the Soviet Experiment in Secularization" By Paul Froese (University of California Press) - "The New Atheist Denial of History" by Borden Painter (Palgrave Macmillan) - "Godless Communists: Atheism and Society in Soviet Russia, 1917-1932" by William B. Husband (Northern Illinois University Press) - The Pew Research Center which shows that after the fall of communism religious identification increased because of atheist repression of religion during the Soviet rule.-
all the historical reliable sources provided (none of which were from religious apologists - by the way - but by practicing historians), clearly relate atheists and/or atheism with goals that affected the destiny and unfortunate fate of religious people and religious institutions. The support of the state simply helped accelerate the attempts to reach atheist influenced anti-religious goals. One source, Pew, even showed increase in religiosity and decrease in irreligiosity and atheism after fall of the USSR which indicates some relief from repression since switching occured. Painter, who is an active historian reviewed such a claim a found it to be historically incorrect in light of historical scholarship.
closer examination of the numerous academic sources provided (Peris, Husband, Marsh, Froese, Painter, etc) show extensively that there were active attempts by atheists, with the help of government power, to actively persecute religious people and institutions and also to actively promote atheism to the masses (via atheist organizations, literature, legislation, teaching atheism in school, proselytizing for atheism, etc) to enforce worldview-control, not just political or economic control.
Comment - At this point, the closing administrator, in addition to ignoring the majority's votes and presentations of evidence, and citing only convoluted math (that can in no way add up to a 'consensus to move') as a rationale for their decision (while refusing to address it), refuses to address the very reason the 'delete' proposition was made in the first place, the validity of the claim (that a category is): if it were indeed neutral, widespread fact, it would be present in most all mainstream reference and historical consensus, and this is not the case at all.
Rather, even a cursory search will show that the category (and its proposed (enforced) alternative) is a concept-accusation the invention of a very specific group for a very specific anti-other-(faux-)group purpose, and, in an overwhelmingly vast majority of cases, is presented as a 'real thing' only on pro-specific-group (and anti-specific-group) websites, publications and... Wikipedia.
I can understand how indoctrination may move some to abandon/ignore reason and evidence in their 'life-or-death' quest to trumpet their programming as 'truth', but Wikipedia is not a soapbox for that sort of abuse, yet this case exposes a perfect example of it.
Again, if this category (in any form) had a reason to exist, it would be common to mainstream reference and through historical consensus: It is not. At. All. THEPROMENADER✎✓18:08, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's very well established that state entities that officially endorsed atheism persecuted religious people. This fact says nothing and makes no presumptions about atheists as a whole, much less atheists in the West, just as the facts that theocratic Muslim states or theocratic Christian states persecuted those of other religions do not make any presumptions on Christians or Muslims in other places and other times, or as a whole.
I find it interesting that you view the people arguing in favor of this category (a diverse list of people which includes Christians and even atheists) of being somehow "indoctrinated" "unreasonable." I think it is the other way around -- the historical evidence is very clear which countries embraced state atheism as the official religious ideology, and it is very clear which persecutions of people of other religions occurred by those states. Those arguing against this category are ignoring this -- whether atheism itself is responsible for the persecutions is irrelevant because we are discussing officially atheist states, and NOT atheist people doing the persecutions. --1990'sguy (talk) 20:35, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Again, if this category (in any form) had a reason to exist, it would be common to mainstream reference and through historical consensus: It is not. At. All.THEPROMENADER✎✓20:44, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse The alternative to endorsement is a lack of consensus, not deletion: those arguing that atheism somehow had nothing to do with manifest persecution of the religious by these atheist states are not persuading anyone. The categorization is accurate enough, and I won't argue with it. Atheist states did (and still do) exist, and they did persecute believers and suppress religious institutions, and I don't see how this is deniable— unless you are willing to give up the entire category of persecution, which I am not. Mangoe (talk) 22:27, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
X, one ought to shy from calling another obtuse and especially deliberately so, but I should think it clear that my meaning was that a lack of consensus was the next most reasonable outcome. Surely you and those pushing your position produced many words, but when all is said and done, the sticking point continues to be that there is a lack of agreement that you can define the playing field as you have attempted to do, particularly your demand for a master's thesis as the minimal level of refutation. You are not similarly forthcoming. I do not see the issue of systematic faith/unbelief (and Marxist government as we saw it play out certainly had an entirely systematic unbelief) as being relevant. Mangoe (talk) 02:50, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse (and exhausted) – within discretion. The close should not be taken as mandating the indefinite continuation of the new category. Thincat (talk) 17:07, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
May I ask you to clarify that, please? Are you endorsing the close decision to create a new category, but suggesting the new category should be discontinued? Xenophrenic (talk) 20:46, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, my endorse meant I think it was acceptable for the closer to close in the way he did. No, I am not suggesting that the new category should be discontinued (or continued). I am not expressing any opinion on the latter aspect – I have not thought out what my opinion might be and I do not need to do so to contribute meaningfully to DRV. I am saying that the result of the CfD does not mean that the new category must stay there for ever. If the closer had thought that the CfD consensus was that it should be permanent, without possibility of review, he would, I think, have said so (and, by the way, I would have opposed such a close). Thincat (talk) 21:43, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment to closing administrator of this review: This Deletion Review has now run the minimum required 7 days. I opened this Deletion Review because the closing admin expressed his decision based only on voting numbers and head-count majorities, and when I approached him and asked that he share his policy-based and argument-based reasoning with me, his only response was that I should file this review. I find this disconcerting. Am I wrong in my understanding that consensus should be determined by Wikipedia policy and reasoned argument, instead of number of votes? Was I wrong to expect a closing administrator to be forthcoming with what policies and arguments from the discussion they relied upon when forming their decision?
It is also my understanding that the closing admin is not supposed to rely on their own personal opinion about the content dispute. I find it disconcerting that the closing admin should find it necessary to express his personal bias as part of this Deletion Review: The desire of members of a group to prevent the existence of a permissible category perceived as negative towards that group does not overcome the failure to persuade the broader community that this permissible category should not exist - this approaches WP:NOTCENSORED as a principle. He just accused atheist Wikipedians of trying to censor presumably "negative" information about atheist groups. That is beyond troubling.
Finally, the closing administrator express as fact, the identical formula previously declared to be synthesized original research in the previous discussion: It was also documented in the discussion that there have historically been "atheist states" (we have a Category:Atheist states, after all), and there have been instances of persecution of practitioners of religions or religious institutions in these states by organs of the state. That is a reasonable basis for a category encompassing such instances. It is disconcerting that this closing admin completely ignored that core policy violation, and instead used it as one of his arguing points. Of course there have been ostensibly "atheist states", but the reliable sources produced by all sides in the argument convey that the source of religious persecution were the totalitarian regimes for a myriad of reasons, and not sourced to the "atheist states".
The very term 'atheist state' is an anti-atheist/apologist concept-opinion-accusation (and not a 'thing' at all), and a simple search for the term (even in Google books) will demonstrate that fact; it is a term utterly absent from secular and mainstream references. And what can one say of someone placing the acts of totalitarian regimes (that secular and mainstream references and historical consensus refer to as such) under an 'atheism alone' banner? The intent behind that is clear.
That is just as 'honest' and makes as much factual sense as using the widely documented fact that Hitler, a Catholic, would not tolerate secular schools (while stamping out atheism[1][2]) and was 'doing the work of the Lord'[3], as an 'excuse' to present Nazi crimes (and the Nazi state) under a 'Catholicism' (or 'Christianity') banner.
Wikipedia, as far as I know, is not a platform for propagagating this sort of dishonest original research strife.
All of this simply shows that Atheists are strident in decrying the airing of their ills -- just like every other religion. And a tag team twosome haranguing every disagreeing opiner twenty times over -- almost, indeed, to the point of persecution -- is still not equal to half a dozen voices of agreement. Blessings!! Pandeist (talk) 23:54, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, putting totalitarian ills under an 'atheism' banner makes less sense, because whereas 'Catholicism' is a 'thing', 'atheism' is not': it has is no ideology or dogma; it is, in fact, an absence of one (the ideology enforced in the 'bad state' accusations was the totalitarianism). It takes only one to present evidence for testing, and not even that if reality and verifiability are actually a concern: no amount of 'vote counting' will change the fact that a claim does not stand to testing, and those promoting only vote-counting are but underlining the fact that the claim that they are 'supporting' doesn't. THEPROMENADER✎✓05:07, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse I have to give some credit to the closer for taking on such a messy and heated discussion and attempting to be fair to as many sides as possible. The rename of the category looks like a decent overall compromise per User TonyBallioni's excellent observations here and also bd2412's comments on the closing.Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 03:10, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
^Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939. Vol. 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1942, p. 378.
^Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939. Vol. 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1942, p. 386.
^Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65.