Mo Pai Discussion

Fat Sau
11th February 2003, 05:34 PM

Has anybody here read The Magus of Java by Kosta Danaos?
When I read this book I could not put it down. It tells the story of the author's
experiences being taught by the current lineage holder of the Mo Pai Taoist sect, of
which Chang San Feng was also lineage holder (also the only person to complete the 72
level system). There is also a great deal written of the past-master's lives, including the
author's teacher (a level 30+ immortal). n.b. 70% die trying to pass level 3!!! :eek:
I am hoping to start Kungfu classes under Dan Sifu soon :), and have researched the
Shaolin Wahnam method. It is very interesting comparing the philosophies of the 2
schools (routes of attainment).
Even better I have found the author's organisation's website Wenwukuan
(http://www.wenwu.org)
Comments? :)
Fat Sau

PS I have the link for the authors teacher setting fire to paper by touch. Normally I
would think this just a trick. But there really is something about it. Check it out in
Quicktime (http://www.mysticfire.com/ntsc/76063/eastmovbg.html?
cart=104498885712174496)
Enjoy!
Marcus

Hello Fat Sau, I just got this book today, I've only had time to flick through it and I
can't wait to find the time to sink into it. Some of the stories I've read are incredible.
Fat Sau
They really are incredible.

I have also read his second book "Nei Gong: Art of the Warrior Sages". This helps
clarify/rectify some of the points raised in the last book. It then goes off on a tangent
focussing mainly on the author's development and the common spiritual ground that
various other religions and their sects share. I don't find it as enjoyable as Magus, but I
believe has to be read to get a fuller picture. Plus there is some of Level 1 training
divulged, if not sparcely.
There are some points that I would like to discuss in the Chi Kung forum.
On the website forum the author stated that by practicing cross-legged meditation and
an art like Chen style Taijiquan it is possible to completely fill the dantian in five years.
This seems a very long time.
This is a question like "How long is a piece of string?", so don't take it seriously. I
realise many factors are involved, but if all factors are equal, how long do you think it
would take to achieve a full dantian in the Wahnam school. When the Wahnam school
has such expedient methods?
One thought I had was that the the Shaolin Wahnam method is based on different
principles, eg dantian kept semi-permenantly open with energy flow until the flow has
built up to a point where it is full. Thus aquiring the full effects of a truely open and full
dantian. Is my theory close to the Shaolin Wahnam's School's Chi Kung philosophy.
Any thoughts?
Jon :)
Marcus

Out of my depth on this one, anyone else care to offer a reply?:)
Antonius
How many liters does your Dantian hold? ;)
But seriously...this should be a topic for the Chi Kung forum. So who wants to start a
new thread?
Fat Sau
Sorry guys, that was an ill-thoughtout rushed lunchtime post. After reading a bit of
"The Complete Book of Shaolin" I answered my own question :o. I'm sure there will be
more to come though hahaha :p.
Still. It's worth checking out the links for the wenwu forum and the Quicktime clip - the
master is at the end of the clip. Apparently he was told that he would be filmed for
research purposes. He cured one of the producers of an eye infection immediately by
passing less than 1% of his power through an acupuncture needle.
I won't spoil anymore of the book for you Marcus.
Has anyone else read this?
Antonius
I'm reading this now. I'll comment once I've finished. :)
Marcus
22nd July 2004, 03:58 AM
22nd July 2004, 10:35 AM
Hey Antonius,
I shall look forward to your thoughts on this book. I must say that I found it an
incredibly good read and it caused me many questioning thoughts regarding the whole
approach to the training of energy. It's one of the few books that I've read more than
once and I must admit to being intrigued about the absence of information on Level 3.
Got to go Ollie's had a number 2 and I've realised that I forgot to bring the Nappies and
wet wipes, oopps :rolleyes: Ah, the subtle joys of fatherhood.
Marcus
Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Budda

Fat Sau
22nd July 2004, 03:34 PM
I'm reading this now. I'll comment once I've finished. :)

Looking forward to that.
Cyberkwoon had a lot of debates about this recently. However, the kids threw insults at
the skeptics of the threads, and it all went downhill from there :( . Sher-fu Andreas, a
member of the Mo-pai joined the forum to try and help answer questions (although he
is limited in what he could say) he was treated quite badly in my opinion. He left the
forum giving his email address to allow people to ask questions. His website is
LungHuShan (http://www.lunghushan.com).
Andreas announced the news that Sifu Chang has now retired from teaching and
healing (I beleive this is to do with the interest generated by the documentary and
books). The most senior student will help the school's existing students finish their
"training" (I take this to mean "level"). So far noone has achieved the infamous Level 4
coupling of the dragon and tiger or yin and yang (this person will become the successor
of the system).
It was interesting to hear Sigung's response to the questions posed in the latest Q&As
about this book.
Incidently after a car crash in Thailand my other qigong teacher recently visited a very
powerful "Tok-tok doctor in Jakata" with a similar ability, who could channel huge
amounts of electricity through his fingers. He said that the treatment was so short he
could not take anymore, it was very intense. one or more treatments and he and his
wife were fixed. He said it was hard to control his body (body jerking around, face
shaking etc). He really wanted to ask the doctor whether he could set newspaper on
fire at touch but declined (doh!)
Good Reading
Jon
Antonius
22nd July 2004, 11:28 PM
I read the threads on cyberkwoon. As I expected, it was a witch hunt. Even talking
about basic energy experiences (like self manifested chi flow!!) will often get you
ridiculed on other forums, so you can imagine what happens to people who talk about
pyrokinetics and across-space striking.
Recently, I was browsing a forum where they ridiculed a guy who politely and
coherently asked about selective breaking (e.g., breaking the bottom but not the top of
two stacked, supported bricks). Actually, I considered posting a comment. Since I can
break the bottom brick, I felt that I should answer some of his questions. But the
people on the forum were just too rude. I chose to ignore them.
I thought Andreas was quite generous and clear with his comments. It would be nice to
have him on our forum. He might also be curious to read Sifu's comments on the
subject (http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans04b/jul04-3.html).
Actually, that's not a bad idea. Maybe I'll write him an e-mail. :)
mopai
14th January 2005, 12:37 AM

I've heard a man could set a pile of paper on fire with his nei kung. He is ChineseIndonesian, and a very well known healer.
Pyrogenesis seems to be nothing for some people. But it coressponds to the level of
power they have achieved.Pyrogenesis only shows how much power one has. But after
that, he has all paranormal abilities.Seeing the future,karma,communicating to the
death.I believe this help someone to know what karma is. Meditating will alter the
practitioners mind. They become calmer, more dinamic,creative.
I will not say that tens of years of practicing nei kung just to set somehing on fire is a
good thing.And other naive purposes. Indeed, we can afford a match to burn
something.
I know I haven't witnessed pyrogenesis with my own eyes. But when one day I met this
man, he could electrocute me with his power. So It could be possible that he is able to
do pyrogenesis (burning things with his qi) which is written in a book (Magus of Java).
Not more that 1% of his total power. Even some people said the strongest ordinary man
could be knocked out with his bioelectric flow.
I want to ask why did he need a lot of time to get abilities like pyrogenesis, levitation,
telekinesis, remote viewing, etc ? (More than 18 years).
The master said that what he did was nei kung. And nei kung is higher than chi kung.
Nei kung deals with both yin and yang. Where chi kung only deals with yang chi.
But what I want to underline is the master used his abilities to heal people.Yet, he could
kill people from more than 10 yards away with energy blast.
You guys have any opinions ?
Antonius
Welcome to the forum, mopai. :)
Have you met Sifu Chang? Are you his student?
mopai

Greetings,
I have already ask mr John to be his apprentice a few years ago. But he refused
subtlety. He said he didnt accept any new students.
So I never ask him about that again.
But, he helped me a lot which I cant describe in detail here. In the past times, he
healed many people with his abilities.
I hope in this forum, there are no insulting words where I used to get from
other MA forums. I know westerners are usually skeptics about eastern art especially
regarding the mo pai lineage.
:)
I just want to know what Mr Wong Kiew Kit's opinion about Mr John and his
lineage.
Zhang Wuji
I read both books too, and in fact, far from making me sceptical, they "softened" me for
the more incredible feats I read about later on.
This lineage is very fascinating. I have been studying Chinese ideology for years, and
Mozi was always sort of derided in favour of Kongzi and Laozi/Zhuangzi. Many Chinese
scholars regard Mozi as some sort of very poor cousin to the above giants. Mr John
(can't spell his Greek surname, please excuse me) was the first one to make me realise
there was something more to Mozi than most Chinese think and this began my own
research.
Actually, mopai, when I first saw your user name, I guessed you were sort of affiliated
or at least a fan of these books. You won't get any derisive words from me - I am
Chinese and am a fan of all the great Chinese philosophers, including Mozi, and I know
that they were also excellent spiritual and martial arts cultivators.
I suspect the reason why Level 1 & 2 is hard for most people to attain has to do with
the fact that most of the time people spend in meditation is wasted. My guess is Sifu's
advanced students have probably attained them already because they are adept at
building energy at the dantian. Never estimate the powerful skill of being able to "relax,
and focus". So many of my fellow Shaolin Wahnam students have told me that they feel
this perceptible ball of energy in their abdomen (and even I, the beginner feel this from
time to time).
But I am honestly surprised at the author's lifestyle - not quite puritanical for a Taoist
cultivator, but I guess his system allows it.
Antonius
Hi mopai. :)
You won't find insults here. I have read "The Magus and Java." A while ago, I invited
Sifu Andreas to our forum. (He politely declined.) It's nice to meet someone who has
met Sifu Chang. You are very welcome on our forum.
My teacher, Sifu Wong Kiew Kit, does not post openly on these boards, though he does
spend some time reading here. To the best of my knowledge, Sifu Wong has not yet
read "The Magus of Java," nor has he met Sifu Chang. However, you can read about
Sifu Wong's opinions here:
http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans04b/jul04-3.html
As for "chi kung" vs. "nei kung," my opinion is that "chi kung" is just an umbrella term
for many different arts of energy cultivation. We could just as easily use the term "nei
kung" instead of "chi kung" for arts like One Finger Shooting Zen. "Chi Kung" is a
relatively modern term, and one that you will not often find in classical texts. However,
I find term very useful for general classification.
mopai
14th January 2005, 03:01 PM
I have read a bit about Mo zi only from The magus of java. Interesting enough.
Still I'm glad that you and the other guys give some respects to the mopai. And we can
discuss the MA side without throwing harsh words.
I'm a mopai fans, and I am always curious about the stuff of chinese legends.
Including their teachings.But until now, the mopais tend to be close about their art.
I tried for a couple of times to meditate and reach total calmness.Though it is always
very hard and I dont really know I have ever reached that state or not.If I have, then It
would be for a very short time.I cant maintain it for a longer period.Its so difficult to sit
still in this age.I guess I will try to do the meditation tehniques like what is described in
kostas' second book, Nei Kung.
According to Nei kung, a level 3 mo pai student have cut four string that hold dantian in
its place, then make the dantian mobile.And they can move it at will.It feels like a soft
qi lump.
I'm also wondering what's the relation about qi gong and paranormal abilities such as
talking with spirits, gods, and the sort of it ?
If I wasnt mistaken, I have read from question and answer that Master Wong KK can do
this at will.Is there any possibilities that he would ask the gods to teach qi gong or nei
kung tehniques ?
mopai
Hi mopai. :)
You won't find insults here. I have read "The Magus and Java." A while ago, I invited
Sifu Andreas to our forum. (He politely declined.) It's nice to meet someone who has
met Sifu Chang. You are very welcome on our forum.
My teacher, Sifu Wong Kiew Kit, does not post openly on these boards, though he does
spend some time reading here. To the best of my knowledge, Sifu Wong has not yet
read "The Magus of Java," nor has he met Sifu Chang. However, you can read about
Sifu Wong's opinions here:
http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans04b/jul04-3.html
As for "chi kung" vs. "nei kung," my opinion is that "chi kung" is just an umbrella term
for many different arts of energy cultivation. We could just as easily use the term "nei
kung" instead of "chi kung" for arts like One Finger Shooting Zen. "Chi Kung" is a
relatively modern term, and one that you will not often find in classical texts. However,
I find term very useful for general classification.
Thank u for you kind words, Antonius. I have read the Q&A section before I join this
forum. And that's the reason why I join this forum. :D
I have post a question to Q&A email address regarding the magus of java. But I guess
It hasnt been replied yet.
One finger shooting Zen ? the one that is able to put down a candle ? :)
Marcus
Hello Mopai,
I would just like to welcome you to the Shaolin Wahnam forum. I have read the Magus
of Java and it is a pleasure to have someone on the forum who has met Sifu Chang.
Kind regards
Marcus
Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

mopai

Thank you for your warm greeting, Marcus. I see you are a wanham instructor. I think
Mr Wong KK is a great martial artist, and also a very
wise man. After reading some of the Q&A in his personal website, I
am very interested in his qi gong and his experiences regarding the
spiritual side of qi gong.
But it's a pity that he doesnt contribute and answer in this forum as well.
Darryl
Dear Mopai,
Welcome to the forum :)
As a term of respect to our Sifu, could I ask you not to refer to him as Mr Wong KK, but
instead, to refer to him as either Sifu Wong, Master Wong or even just Wong Kiew Kit.
Thank you
Antonius
Mopai,
I'm sure many people would be interested to read more about your experience with Sifu
Chang.
And yes, Darryl has given some good advice. You are very welcome on our forum, but
we are obliged to be honest with you about showing respect towards Kungfu masters.
I'm sure it was just an honest mistake, but it is polite to use a master's full name, not
an abbreviation. For example I have not met Sifu Chang, but out of respect, I refer to
him as Sifu Chang. It would be impolite to refer to him as J. Chang or Mr. John or even
Sifu J.C.
Thanks! :)
mopai

OK no problem about that. I will refer him as Sifu Wong.
I feel no comfortable to say my detailed experiences with Sifu Chang. I really
dont want to exaggerate Sifu Chang's abilities in front of Sifu Wong.
But I will tell you how Sifu Chang heals people with acupuncture. I have met him a
couple of times to help my parents by holding their feet which I acted as
ground.Because the bioelectric current must be channeled from the patients body to the
ground.
After he sticked some needles and I held my parents' feet, he continously sent a steady
flow of electric current.Sometimes the current became stronger hence made their
muscles jerk.Also did with my hand muscles.
My mother had a pain in her leg. Maybe she got a rheumatoid arthritis.
But after the first treatment. She could run without pain. The pain had gone.
Prior to the treatment, she could hardly walk.
If I was not mistaken, I also heard that Sifu Chang could heal cancer as well, but
probability is 4 among of 7 patients. Unfortunately the 3 patients were died instantly
(whose I believe the doctors and the medic have gave up treating these 3 patients and
sent them home to live their short time) and the other 4 patients were healed instantly.
Since that time, he has never attempted to heal patients with cancer.
Antonius
Thank you for sharing, mopai. Very interesting. So when you were acting as a "ground,"
you could feel Sifu Chang's energy? What did that feel like?
(By the way, I'm happy to hear that your mother is now able to walk. :))
mopai
It felt the same like when you touch an open electric wire.The same jolt.But it was
benevolent and not so intense like a 220v current.
But strong enough to make you startled.
Antonius
Very interesting. Thank you, mopai.

So does Sifu Chang still take patients? How did you come to meet him?
mopai

I think he only heals close friends and relatives now. It was a few years ago,
when he still heals patients.
I have address of a chinese doctor who could heal patients with qi.The patients said the
qi feel so hot.And the doctor was able to set paper on fire as well.If you interested to
meet/contact him, I will give you the address.
What about Sifu Wong ? does he heal sick people too ?
mopai

I've met some mo pai students, they are very humble person. There is a high degree of
difference with an ordinary kung fu students, which usually are pretty arrogant.For
them, "if you cant proof it, then it is a hoax".There are only a few forums where I do
not get ridiculed for asking opinions or sharing thoughts about the magus of java.This
forum is one of the few forum. ;)
I will share my thoughts on forums which give some respect to Sifu Chang.
Have anyone of you heard about mao shan pai? I heard there is a very powerful kungfu
taught in that lineage. Maybe a kind of shen gong.
Sometimes they use magic (black)??
mopai

Guys, this is a copy a got from mopai yahoo forum : (this copy's origin is
from a post in wenwukuan forum)
A guy who wrote this copy added some notes with this mark (*) :
I added this copy with this mark (>>):
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Do you by chance have a copy of some of the posts at the Wenwukuan
forum? How long was the forum up and can you remember anything else
Kostas cited from the Mo-Pai text? Were there any other interesting
facts or revelations that were discussed there but have not been
mentioned in the books or at CK?<
Mostly it was re-itteration of points mentioned in the book but other
thing of interest that did come up including the following
information. Some i took as notes, others i cut and pasted and have
put these here so others may have a better understanding of why the
mo-pai may be making the choices they are + references to other
practitioners and risks. Direct information from the site i have put
in quotation marks.
1.alcohol, coffee and cigaretts do not affect training... anything
goes so long as it does not damage your nervous system, enjoy.
2.The 'Light Body' ability that occurs naturally as a part of nei
kung training had been achieved by a friend of kostas named Lee, who
is a Korean martial arts master and demos it routinely. I think he is
the one mentioned in the book so his nei kung is from a school other
than John's. He is a low level but he he can break 4 by 4's while

maintaining his 'light body'. He was able to do this as he grasped
the secret of light body well before he would of developed it
naturally in the mo pai system.
3.The levels are not set in concrete for abilities, they are merely a
guide and it is different for everyone. This is why they are so
selective and careful in their training. Also different people will
develope different abilities though some are universal.
4.Striking a person with your yang qi has the same affect whether you
have yin (to project) or not, the only difference is the strength of
your yang. Even making love is dangerious at level 2.
5."A health-related program like Chen tai chi can keep you alert and
well. Wu style might even be better at that than Chen, if the late
Mae Yue Liang and the still ornery Wang Peisheng are any example. But
MoPai neikung is not health oriented."
*I am not sure if it was in the book or forum but it was mentioned
this training can lead to an earlier death as you are altering your
energy from health uses to martial power so you have less sustaining
your body. This is why you should not train too hard.
6.Mo-pai nei kung is very similear to Tibetan gTummo yoga
"The best book I have seen written from the Tibetan standpoint is
Clear Light of Bliss. You can find it on Amazon. Many practitioners
of Tibetan Yoga have written to me saying: "hey, what you describe is
exactly like the completion stages in XYZ." Duh. Human beings have
two arms and two legs. Go figure."
7.60% of the people attempting level 3 have died
"The people who have died or been injured have suffered from strokes,
heart attacks, and kidney failure"
8."It's not a problem at all, in fact it is desired, to combine
meditation with kinetic training. This is the reason that we
recommend a practice such as tai-chi with a qualified teacher to all
who have an interest in neikung. I would say that you are very much
on the right track.
What we have seen in practice is that people who follow such regimes
will normally, in the course of five years, reach about 70% of Level
One, which is wonderful."
>>I've met a young man who could reach level 2 for only 3 years of training
9."One of the foremost living masters of neikung in China is a woman,
Yang Meijun. She is the head of a Kunlun Qi gong and martial arts
school, best known for her instruction of the Wild Goose style, which
is part of the body of knowledge she possesses."

10."The main concepts in the MoPai are universality (do onto others),
universal justice (not revenge - I have been awed by how my master
lets karma take its course without interceding, and have tried to
follow his example), submission to the Will of Heaven, freedom from
material possessions (Liao Sijo literally did not have a pot to piss
in, when he could have had anything and everything he wanted)."
Hubert

Thanks for sharing, mopai, that is some fascinating information.
I have just bought "The Magus of Java", and I am looking forward to reading it. It is
strange how less than a year ago I would have dismissed it as rubbish without even
trying, whereas know, after all I have experienced with Sifu and Shaolin Wahnam, I
don't have a single doubt that it is all true...
I am not sure if it was in the book or forum but it was mentioned
this training can lead to an earlier death as you are altering your
energy from health uses to martial power so you have less sustaining
your body. This is why you should not train too hard.
I remember Jeffrey quoting a similar discussion he had with Sifu. Not sure which thread
it was, but it was about why some Taijiquan master would die early, which could seem
paradoxal.
Marcus
Hello Mopai,
I seem to recall that Kosta Danaos had a website and forum that was terminated due to
unsolicitated negative attention. I have been keeping an eye on www.lunghushan.com
website, which I think is very well done though I keep waiting for many of the sections
to have content other than "coming soon". In case I havn't already mentioned I found
The Magus of Java to be a fascinating read.
I look forward to reading anything you may like to add to this thread. Once again it is a
pleasure to welcome you here.
Kind regards
Marcus

Antonius
This is slightly off topic, but since mopai's last post mentioned both Yang Meijun and
Wang Peishang, I thought I would correct something.
Sifu Wang Peisheng and Sifu Yang Meijun have both passed away. Wang Peisheng died
earlier this year, and I think Yang Meijun died a few years ago (at the age of 104).
Coincidentally, I'm currently learning Wild Goose qigong in Yang Meijun's lineage (via
Dr. Bingkun Hu) at schoo, and learned some Taijiquan in Wang Peisheng's lineage (via
Sifu Zhang Yun) a few years ago.
mopai
Hubert,
From my point of view, an internal training will be lethal enough while you have
reached a high level. Because incorrect training will enable your strong qi
to damage some organs.Like the heart.
I was told by a mopai insider, that there was a mopai disciple who died because his
heart tendon was cut off.And the doctor examining the body was
very surprised with this incident.The doctor said the death similar to this case was
possible when someone fell off from an aeroplane. :confused:
Indeed, there is still a risk for a lower level students. But with a guru's
guidance, the risk will be minimalize.
But these facts (or myths ??) make me reconsider the benefit and the loss of internal
training. They also scared me a bit.
I will look for a similar discussion with Sifu Wong regarding "early death" you
mentioned.
Marcus,
www.lunghushan.com is still under construction for a long period, and that really makes
me feel bored, too.
I think you should find a better source. :rolleyes:
Antonius,
Thanks for the correction and the info.
Fat Sau
Hello again everyone, haven't been here for a bit.

It's great to see this thread being started up again. I was shown this website by a
student of this teacher. This man has had some contact with Sifu Chang (I'm not sure
how much).
It explains the development stages of the Mo-Pai's Thunder path of cultivation in the
more traditional way. I would be interested to hear Sigung's comments on this.
www.QigongResearch.org (http://www.qigongresearch.org/mod.php?
mod=userpage&menu=13&page_id=5)
Enjoy!
Jon
seandenty
17th May 2005, 10:05 PM
Hi to All,
It looks like this thread has been inactive for some time. Im a student of the author of
The Magus of Java. I live in the states and am interested in joining discussions centered
on neikung and authentic systems and teachers. Im also happy to answer any
questions relating to Mo Pai that I am permitted to.
Suggestions/recommendations on interesting threads to check out are much
appreciated.
Best, Sean
Marcus
Hello Sean,
17th May 2005, 10:22 PM
Let me take this opportunity to welcome you here to the forum of the Shaolin Wahnam
Institute. It's a pleasure to have you here and I look forward to reading your posts and
thoughts.
It's hard to direct you to specific threads to check out, but one that is causing much
interest at the moment is this one in the Shaolin Kung Fu section:
http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3103&page=1&pp=10
Anyway, have fun and I wish you well with your practice.
Kind regards
Marcus

LeeWeiJoo
18th May 2005, 04:59 AM
Greetings and welcome Sean :)

Andrew
Welcome Sean.
18th May 2005, 06:58 AM
Im also happy to answer any questions relating to Mo Pai that I am permitted to.
As long as you do not break any of the forum rules and regulations, you are most
weclome to answer (and ask) as many questions as you wish.
Andrew
Michael Udel
18th May 2005, 04:05 PM

Regarding the book, Magus of Java , did anybody else notice that Danaos reported
there have been two people who achieved level 72? He claims the first was Bodhidarma
and the second was Zhang San Feng (sp?).
My copy of the book is back in Texas, or California, or maybe a hitchiker snatched it out
of my car when I was driving between the two, so I can't quote you the page number,
and heaven knows the mind plays tricks, but...Bodhidarma, level 72 in the Mo-Pai Taoist
system? This should definitely have been examined in the infamous Zen/Tao thread.
I think there were many places in The Magus of Java where Danaos had problems with
the language barrier, and he said as much in a thank you to a fellow student who
translated for him when speaking to Sifu Chang. However, I think Danaos filled in some
of the blank spaces created by the language barrier with stuff like Bodhidarma being a
Taoist Mo-Pai master. ????
It also begs the question, if Bodhidarma was the first person to reach level 72, and he
lived about 1,000 years after Mozi, how did Bodhidarma know there were 72 levels
unless he was an active member in the sect, and not just a guy whose own practice got
him to a place equivalent to level 72? Danaos says there is a book describing all 72
levels and that students who reach level 3 are allowed to copy it if they can read
classical Chinese. Who wrote the bookMozi? Bodhidarma? Zhang San Feng? Luke
Skywalker? I mention Luke Skywalker because Danaos continually makes references to
Star Wars throughout the book.
Since this thread is called the Magus of Java, I may as well get it all out. During the
story of John Chang's Sigung battling the blind, evil, former warlord, does the plot
make much sense? John Chang's Sigung stops a warlord and leaves him blind as a
lesson. Ten years pass, the blind, evil warlord has caught up to the Mo-Pai master in
ability level, I guess the Mo-Pai master was on vacation from training??, and the blind,
evil warlord searches for and finds John Chang's Sifu in a hut in the woods. The man
who accelerated his training based on pure hatred then says that he won't kill John
Chang's Sifu because the guy was kind enough to offer him tea? I think Sauron made
the same offer to Gandalf, but Tolkienn failed to mention it.
Okay, okay, it's just a martial arts story, but to me it's Danaos filling in the blank spaces
with some George Lucas variants. In Nei-Gong Danaos admitted he altered the facts in
the case of the ping-pong ball, but I think there's a lot more that got altered.
Let me be clear, this is a critique of a book, not an insult to John Chang or the Mo-Pai
martial arts system. I'm in China right now because the language barrier is preventing
me from just chatting to one of my teachers, much less learning the entire history of a
martial arts system, so I know how tough it is breaking through the language barrier. I
think Danaos used a normal amount of "poetic license" for a work of fiction, but it's
being treated like non-fiction, which it ain't.
Michael
seandenty
18th May 2005, 04:42 PM
Thanks for the warm welcome.

Best, Sean
seandenty
Michael,
18th May 2005, 10:39 PM
I like your line of questioning. Even as a student of the author, I like to maintain a
healthy level of skepticism. If my memory serves me, I think about 50% of your
questions are addressed in the book. Perhaps a reread is in order.
Regarding the book, Magus of Java , did anybody else notice that Danaos reported
there have been two people who achieved level 72? He claims the first was Bodhidarma
and the second was Zhang San Feng (sp?).
That's correct. Those are the ones John Chang knows of. There certainly could be
others.
My copy of the book is back in Texas, or California, or maybe a hitchiker snatched it out
of my car when I was driving between the two, so I can't quote you the page number,
and heaven knows the mind plays tricks, but...Bodhidarma, level 72 in the Mo-Pai Taoist
system? This should definitely have been examined in the infamous Zen/Tao thread.
Boddhidharma was never a member of the Mo Pai. Nor does the book make that claim.
I think there were many places in The Magus of Java where Danaos had problems with
the language barrier, and he said as much in a thank you to a fellow student who
translated for him when speaking to Sifu Chang. However, I think Danaos filled in some
of the blank spaces created by the language barrier
I can assure you that this is not the case. Its true that Sifu Changs associate
sometimes translates more involved/complex ideas, but Kostas intended the book to be
a serious work as well as a document of his actual experience with his teacher (from
what Ive heard John Changs English is actually not bad). Of course a work of this
nature will always draw controversy just by its very nature. And really, why should you
take it seriously? Whether you choose to believe or not is really a choice.
It also begs the question, if Bodhidarma was the first person to reach level 72, and he
lived about 1,000 years after Mozi, how did Bodhidarma know there were 72 levels
unless he was an active member in the sect, and not just a guy whose own practice got
him to a place equivalent to level 72?
The 72 levels of power correspond to the 72 energy centers of the body. This is written
about in many spiritual/meditation systems and is certainly not exclusive to the Mo Pai.
And again, Boddhidharma was not a member of the Mo Pai.
Danaos says there is a book describing all 72 levels and that students who reach level 3
are allowed to copy it if they can read classical Chinese. Who wrote the bookMozi?
Bodhidarma? Zhang San Feng? Luke Skywalker?
Chang San-feng. Whether he wrote it or spoke it is anyone's guess.
Since this thread is called the Magus of Java, I may as well get it all out. During the
story of John Chang's Sigung battling the blind, evil, former warlord, does the plot
make much sense? John Chang's Sigung stops a warlord and leaves him blind as a
lesson. Ten years pass, the blind, evil warlord has caught up to the Mo-Pai master in
ability level, I guess the Mo-Pai master was on vacation from training??, and the blind,
evil warlord searches for and finds John Chang's Sifu in a hut in the woods. The man
who accelerated his training based on pure hatred then says that he won't kill John
Chang's Sifu because the guy was kind enough to offer him tea? I think Sauron made
the same offer to Gandalf, but Tolkienn failed to mention it.
There are many more equally unbelievable stories that have not been written about.
Many of these Kostas has personally witnessed and or captured on video for the benefit
of his students. You might also be suprised to read Sifi Wong Keiw Kit's comments
about such "fairy tales." There is a link earlier in this thread- check it out. Sometimes
truth is stranger than fiction.
Okay, okay, it's just a martial arts story, but to me it's Danaos filling in the blank spaces
with some George Lucas variants. In Nei-Gong Danaos admitted he altered the facts in
the case of the ping-pong ball, but I think there's a lot more that got altered.
Funny you should mention; many of Kostas student's thought George Lucas ripped off
the Magus of Java when the book was first published. Kostas sent Lucas a copy of the
book before the forth Star Wars film came out. In all likelihood, it's just a coincidence.
As for the ping-pong ball, that was an honest mistake.
Let me be clear, this is a critique of a book, not an insult to John Chang or the Mo-Pai
martial arts system. I'm in China right now because the language barrier is preventing
me from just chatting to one of my teachers, much less learning the entire history of a
martial arts system, so I know how tough it is breaking through the language barrier. I
think Danaos used a normal amount of "poetic license" for a work of fiction, but it's
being treated like non-fiction, which it ain't.
Are you sure about that?
Hope that was helpful. Who are you studying with in China? That's awsome.
Sincerely, Sean Denty
Michael Udel
19th May 2005, 02:30 AM
Hello Sean!
Thank you for a very methodical and poignant answer to my review of the book. Your
considerate response to my post is an example of why this forum is such a wonderful
place. Thanks again!
Now, back to the book review!
Yes, yes, I concede the book did not claim Bodhidarma as a member, but you gave a
better explanation of his connection to Mo-Pai than I found in the book. I think I could
have inferred Bodhdidarma's indirect connection, but my interpretation of the way it
was presented by Danaos was that he was implying a direct connection for the "name
drop" value of Bodhidarma.
My comments about the fight with the blind, evil warlord were not based on whether or
not I believe in such abilities, but whether or not it made sense for someone who, after
being blinded, was able to accelerate their training past the guy who blinded him based
on the premise that with the power of hatred such a feat can be accomplished, and that
such a person, consumed by hatred, would spare the life of anyone remotely in their
way just because they offered him some tea. The plot line is certainly within the realm
of possibilty, and the whims of an individual can be influenced by a variety of factors.
So, yeah, sure, it's possible, but the narrative doesn't offer any support for such an
action.
I think all of the so-called "extraordinary abilities" featured in the book are attainable
and within the boundaries of human potential, not in a hypothetical sense, but in a real
sense. I've never seen levitation, pyrogenesis, etc., but I've seen or experienced
similarly "extraordinary" things first hand, enough to hopefully keep my mind open.
Excellent point about Sifu Wong's comments regarding the existence of "fairy tales."
Sifu has talked about these kinds of things openly in his Q & A for years. Besides having
deities do your bidding (http://shaolin.org/answers/ans04a/feb04-2.html) (Question 8),
the walking through walls (http://shaolin.org/answers/ans98b/dec98-2.html) (Question
1) story stands out as a very interesting "extraordinary" ability.
I arrived in Guangzhou, China about 5 weeks ago. My purpose here is to learn
Cantonese so I can communicate directly with my first qigong teacher, Ou Wen Wei
(http://www.pangu.org/), who now lives in San Francisco, but does not speak English. I
expect to be here four or five years, supporting myself by teaching English, and
studying (outside of a classroom) to become fluent in the Cantonese dialect and in the
Chinese written language. This area of China is where Master Ou grew up and where
Cantonese is prevalent. Master Ou gives all of his lectures in Cantonese, which is one
reason I wish to learn it instead of the more popular Mandarin (Putong-hua).
I recently attended the Intensive Kungfu Course in Malaysia with Sifu Wong, so I am
now studying with him, albeit not in the normal "come to class twice a week" sense of
things. Considering you live in the US, but are the student of a man who lives in
Greece, you may be familiar with this system. I had very high expectations of the
Intensive Kungfu Course (http://www.shaolin.org/general/kf-course.html), and they
were all exceeded. For me, the primary emphsasis of Sifu's teaching begins with the
spiritual aspect, and then flows downward to the energetic (qi) and finally the physical
(jing) levels. At the Intensive Kungfu Course, I experienced the highest level teaching I
have ever attended. I was specifically looking for a martial arts system that emphasized
spiritual practice (many give lip service to "spirit", but don't deliver) and provided a
methodical, systematic training program for developing actual combat skills using its
martial arts practice. I found it. The fact that I don't have to attend classes in a fixed
time and place every week is an advantage for me.
Sean, are you familiar with the documentary film Ring of Fire: An Indonesian Odyssey
(http://www.mysticfire.com/index.html?cart=1116078372450886)? I expect you know
it is what inspired Kosta Danaos to travel to Indonesia to find Sifu Chang. Have you
ever seen the documentary, or read the companion book, Ring of Fire ISBN:
0892814306? This is perhaps my favorite documentary, and I watch a lot of films.
Nice talking to you!
Best,
Michael Udel
seandenty
19th May 2005, 05:09 AM
Michael,
I have to say Im also really impressed with the caliber of this forum and its users. I
have to admit that Im more than a little jealous of your study in China. I have often
dreamed of visiting China or India and studying the ancient spiritual sciences hidden
away in mountain retreats. When my son is a little older I may consider teaching
English abroad. I teach middle school.
Yes, I own a copy of Ring of Fire. Its also one of my favorites.
I will have to politely disagree about the book. You are entitled to your opinion, but I
will make a couple points.
My comments about the fight with the blind, evil warlord were not based on whether or
not I believe in such abilities, but whether or not it made sense for someone who, after
being blinded, was able to accelerate their training past the guy who blinded him based
on the premise that with the power of hatred such a feat can be accomplished, and that
such a person, consumed by hatred, would spare the life of anyone remotely in their
way just because they offered him some tea. The plot line is certainly within the realm
of possibilty, and the whims of an individual can be influenced by a variety of factors.
So, yeah, sure, it's possible, but the narrative doesn't offer any support for such an
action.
The warlord had trained to level 52. Liao was only at level 40 and not really a threat
even if he wanted to be. Level 52 is a world away from level 40. The warlord (Lim)
offered to spare Liaos life if he agreed not to interfere in the fight- the tea really didnt
have anything to do with it. Despite their agreement, Liao does try to kill the warlord
and is blasted threw the side of his house.
Pai Lok Nen played an active and vital roll as a protector of the people in the community
in which he lived at the time. I think the fact that the warlord is able to catch up to Pai
Sifu in, terms of his level of power, makes sense when we consider that this warlord
had been training in quiet isolation over a ten year period while Sifu Pai was busy doing
good deeds, healing, teaching and being active in his community. Case and point: John
Chang does very little healing and has retired from teaching entirely; one of the main
reason for this, from what Im told, is so he can train in the higher level practices. Sifu
Chang, in his active healing days, served as the personal physician to the head of the
Indonesian government. Hundreds of people would come to him daily for healing. Not
to mention the fact that he oversees a thriving, million dollar international business.
Thanks for sharing your experiences with your teacher and Sifu Wong. I look forward to
hearing more of your experiences on this forum.
Best, Sean
Michael Udel
Sean,
19th May 2005, 06:18 AM
I enjoyed discussing The Magus of Java with you. Thanks for your insights. I really do
appreciate your reasonable nature in discussing a topic that has importance to you. It
shows your good character.
I have often dreamed of visiting China or India and studying the ancient spiritual
sciences hidden away in mountain retreats.
Who wouldn't, eh? I am extremely blessed to have found, completely by chance, three
different teachers, all of them "World Class." Sifu Stier mentions the serendipity
(http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?
t=2314&page=2&pp=10&highlight=serendipity) of each of his teachers finding him, not
the other way 'round. In my case, I was not looking for a qigong teacher when I found
Ou Wen Wei, I was urged to attend his lecture by a customer whom I'd helped in
printing her flyers for said lecture; I was not looking for a kungfu teacher when I found
Sifu's web site, but merely killing time between classes in the school library; and I was
not searching for a teacher of Chinese Medicine, Taoist Qigong, or Tai-Chi Chuan when
chance introduced me to Richard Peck, I was just looking for someone who could
relieve my grandmother's neck pain. The story of how I finally found Richard Peck
clearly illustrates the concept of the master finding the student only when the student is
ready, but it's too lengthy to tell at the moment.
My three teachers have several things in common, one of them being they are all
extremely generous men. Generous to a fault. I believe their generosity connects to
another quality they have that I admire. My impression of each of them is that they
don't believe in enshroudng their knowledge with secrets. Sifu posts valuable
information on his web site so anyone interested can benefit. He could hoard all the
knowledge for himself and a few chosen disciples, but he doesn't. My other two
teachers have the same attitude that knowledge is to be shared among as many people
as possible (who could reasonably be expected to benefit).
Teachers, especially good ones, can do whatever they think best, but I believe the time
for secrets is over. There are serious side-effects to secretive behavior, even when done
out of necessity. Hide the teaching far enough out of reach, literally and/or figuratively,
and the side-effect is the art is lost forever!
Michael
Ray
19th May 2005, 09:50 AM

Dear friends,
I have never read "Magus of Java" but I would like to know what is the ultimate goal of
a member of the Mo Pai? (Mo Tzu is pretty interesting, too bad my classical chinese
needs some work :o ) Also, does John Chang have a family? If so, are they okay with
him practicing such advanced spiritual techniques that require isolation?
Best,
Divineshadow
seandenty
Michael,
19th May 2005, 04:12 PM
Im in agreement with you on the whole sharing thing. Sounds like youve been very
fortunate to find some great teachers. Looks like youre a student of Pan Gu Shengong.
Ive studied a little Pan Gu with one of my old teachers- very interesting story behind
that system.
Divineshadow,
All your questions are answered in the book. The Mo Pai is first and foremost a Kung fu
school. The ultimate goal, I would imagine, is as varied as the students of the Mo Pai.
Who knows what motivates men; power, greed, spiritual longing, passion, love;
probably a combination of all of the above. Lets face it we are complex beings. If
pressed, I would have to say enlightenment is the ultimate goal. I believe there is, in all
of us, a deep, intrinsic need to find the truth (another word for enlightenment) of our
being. This is just my opinion.
Yes, John Chang has seven children! Im sure they made some sacrifices, but, to the
best of my knowledge, John Chang was pretty much financially set for life before he
begin practicing in isolation for long periods of time. This enabled his family to live
comfortably while he was away. I have one son and he keeps me pretty busy, so I have
no idea how Sifu Chang accomplished what he has with seven kids.
Peace, Sean
Ray
[
Divineshadow,
19th May 2005, 11:09 PM
All your questions are answered in the book. The Mo Pai is first and foremost a Kung fu
school. [/QUOTE]
Thank you Sean,
Although this may be answered in the book considering where I am (China), I have
access to resources right now that I may not have again for some time.
Can you tell me when the Mo Pai sect was developed (if it really is Mo pai then this may
have a big impact on my research)
and who developed it, also if it is a kung fu school it teaches with a self defense slant as
well, are their animal forms or yogic asanas?
Thanks again,
Divineshadow
Michael Udel
20th May 2005, 12:29 AM
Sean,
Yes, Pan Gu Shengong has an interesting background. Master Ou is one of a few people
in history to make an ostensibly credible claim for such a longlasting conversation with
the creator of the universe. Master Ou says that since his first introduction to Pan Gu
while he was imprisoned during the Cultural Revolution in late 1974, Pan Gu has been
continuously showing him "movies" inside his mind nearly (or perhaps completely,
depending on the interpreter) non-stop, even during sleep.
My desire to learn more from Master Ou has brought me to what I expect to be a multiyear sojourn in China. Whenever I'm around Master Ou and the interpreter is willing, I
have experiences like the following:
Living near Dallas,Texas (USA), I was giving long distance qi healing to a classmate
about 50 miles from my home, and stopped the pain in her wrist in 15 minutes where
other therapists, including an excellent acupuncturist, had failed to reduce it at all. Her
wrist hurt so much she was going to see an MD about surgery. After the wrist, she
mentioned another ailment, so I continued sending her qi every day for a month.
Toward the end of our sessions, she mentioned a friend in Colorado, without giving her
name, and said that she was due to give birth, but the baby was turned the wrong way,
and asked if I would help. I said I would help, but that a condition like this was so
potentially serious it would be better if Master Ou helped. I told her I would inquire
about it.
I spoke to Master Ou's interpreter in San Francisco, where Master Ou lives, to ask if he
would help, and then waited for the response. It was Thursday. Saturday, I talked to my
classmate, and she told me not to bother with Master Ou's assistance because an
examination Friday revealed the baby had turned. The examination was prompted by
the mother, who on Thursday evening felt the sudden turning of the baby, and went in
for an exam the next day.
Later, Saturday night, Master Ou's interpreter contacted me and said that he already
took care of the problem. I didn't know it before that event, but Master Ou can/could
link from my mind to my classmate, whom I'd not named, and from my classmate's
mind to her pregnant friend in Colorado, whom I didn't know in the slightest, and then
turn the baby in her womb remotely from San Francisco.
There have been many such events, and other reasons from my personal experience to
give credence to Master Ou when he talks about Pan Gu showing him movies in his
mind continuously for 31 years. Strange, but true!
Michael
seandenty
20th May 2005, 03:55 PM
Michael,
That's so cool. What a great story. Any literature out there on Pan Gu Shengong?
Master Ou ever come to the States?
seandenty
21st May 2005, 02:36 AM

Can you tell me when the Mo Pai sect was developed (if it really is Mo pai then this may
have a big impact on my research) and who developed it, also if it is a kung fu school it
teaches with a self defense slant as well, are their animal forms or yogic asanas?
The Mo Pai was founded by Mo Tzu (Mo Ti) which means Mr. Tattoo. He was born in 469
B.C.. As for animals and yoga, could be, but not to my knowledge. Of Course there's at
lot a don't know.
Best of luck in your research, Sean
Michael Udel
Sean,
21st May 2005, 02:40 AM
A Chinese citizen from Guangzhou, Master Ou has been residing in the US since 1999,
and has an office in downtown San Francisco, California, USA. He lives in one of the
nearby suburbs in the Bay Area. He travels regularly in the USA to Portland, Oregon;
Boston, Massachusetts; New York City; Honolulu, Hawaii; and Flordia. Outside the US,
he regularly travels to the Bahamas, Hong Kong, Indonesia, and Malaysia. It is quite
common for students, even new students, to visit Master Ou in his home for instruction
or qi healing if it is more convenient for them to go there than into downtown San
Francisco. Anyone familiar with the traffic on the Bay Bridge can understand the
reason.
Two of his books have been published in English. You can get some information on them
here (http://www.pangu.org/InEnglish/Books/BooksHome.htm). It seems a lot quicker
to get the book from Master Ou's secretary than ordering on Amazon.com, which often
takes weeks due to the fact that when they get a request for a book online, they e-mail
Master Ou's secretary to send a book to their warehouse, where they then send it to
the online customer. Not very efficient.
Just an FYI. I re-read my post and want to clarify that when Master Ou turned the baby,
it was not telekinesis. The primary effect of qigong is to strengthen the life force,
improve physiological function, and improve the immune system. Since I am nowhere
near Master Ou's ability level, I don't know exactly how he does it, but he turned the
baby by sending qi to the mother and guiding the qi to do what it is normally supposed
to do in a healthy person, allowing the baby to turn by overcoming whatever qi
blockage or diminished physiological function had prevented it from having the proper
head-first orientation in the womb.
Because of the language barrier: I do not yet speak Chinese and Master Ou does not
speak English, I have learned about Pan Gu Shengong with very little direct contact
with Master Ou. Because the power of Pan Gu Shengong comes from the philosophy of
kindness and benevolence, the benefit from the qigong comes from improving one's
understanding of this philosophy. Reading Master Ou's books, articles, and lectures is
one way to improve the understanding of kindness and benevolence.
Sean, if you are looking for a teacher and method for advancement, both Shaolin
Cosmos Chi-Kung and Pan Gu Shengong are excellent. I value and practice both, and
both can provide great benefits with relatively minimal face-to-face contact with the
teacher. The reason so little face-to-face contact with the teacher is possible is that the
teachers have refined their method away from traditional class attendance to allow
more students to benefit.
Michael
mopai
22nd May 2005, 10:13 AM
Hi,
I've been practicing meditation for some period.I did it regularly until one day, I felt a
strange sensation.
My lower belly, approx at dan tian point, jerked uncontrollably.And after that time on,
the shaking comes quite
often.It shakes very hard and moves my body and torso, too.It scares me a bit.But I
ignore it and keep meditating everyday.
Have anyone of you experienced the same sensation as mine ?
Any advices ?
Thanks
beggarsu
21st June 2005, 08:41 AM

What does Mo Pai translate to? Because from stories about the immortals I've read, I've
always been under the impression chan san feng learned from The Fire Dragon of
Dragon Gate Sect, and thus under that lineage.
beggarsu
21st June 2005, 09:29 AM
mopai, yes, this is a normal development to not be afraid of. It is refered to sometimes
as "starting the fire". This is common in babies. Your body is just realizing again that
the dan tian is the source of life, as opposed to the "air breathing" you have become
conditioned to in after-child life. It is good to not pay particular attention to it and just
continue enjoying your meditation. It is a good development sign, as most people pick
up the skill of filling the dan tian when they do stance training, whereas you got it from
(i'm assuming) sitting meditation (?).
mopai
22nd June 2005, 10:14 AM

hello beggarsu,
Yes, I got the sensation merely from sitting meditation.But a guy told me to ignore and
change the concentration object to eliminate this shaking.
He was right, and since then I didnt feel it again.
If I'm not mistaken, mo pai mean mo from mo zi (or mr tatto) and pai (sect/clan).
You can find in the internet about mo zi. :)
iansanityy
24th July 2005, 05:56 AM

Hey mopai, you said earlier that you have actually met John and seen him heal? Could
you give me any information regarding his location in indonesia, I'm planning to go
there and find him.
Antonius
24th July 2005, 11:16 AM
Anyone thinking about going to see Sifu John Chang should read this thread:
http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3498
ivan1
23rd September 2005, 05:16 PM

After reading some comments on page 1 and 2 and seeing texts in the book such as.
Nei kung is higher then chi kung because it deals with yin and yang. while qi gong deals
with yang.
Qi gong deals with both energies, dealing with one will produce imbalance in the other.
How could the author make a statement like this is beyond my reason.
This sounds like this book is coming from someone that doesn't know what he is saying.
The highest forms of cultivation transend duality :eek:
And by reading the reviews that people say this book is written on what was observed
but not written from the writers personal experiance.
Can anyone post some of the reason behind this. As I had heard many stories of great
masters, such as a master making a cooked chicken appear in a students jacket
because they were training and the student was hungry.
beggarsu
24th September 2005, 08:41 AM
Hello ivan1,
Nei kung is higher then chi kung because it deals with yin and yang. while qi gong deals
with yang.
My guess as to what the Master might have meant would be the difference between
kinds of Qigong. My Master says that when you feel the energy when you do Qigong,
this is the yang energy, then use the yin energy (a gentle visualization) to do high level
qigong. I've seen this described in Qigong books as the difference (although it can be
arbitrary) between quiescent and dynamic Qigong.
ivan1
25th September 2005, 07:31 PM
Interesting, Beggarsu I know you have much more qi familiarty then me, but from what
I have read.
Yang is usauly felt as warmth, and yin as cool or cold.
But then I also have high vibration sensations and when I use palm diagnostic on my
dog and go over his aura i can feel a strange strong windy sensation.
Anyone comment?
beggarsu
Dear ivan1,
Yang is usauly felt as warmth, and yin as cool or cold.

I believe that when things are classified into Yin and Yang, Yin and Yang
can still be applied to classify other things. Like it is true that many classify
Chi Feeling into yang feelings like warm and yin feelings like cold. But I
think the Yin and Yang classification in your earlier posts was meant to
classify Qigong Types such as Yang types like Dynamic Qigong and Yin
types like Quiescent Qigong.
ivan1

I just said this is basics I know. Just like they teach you in school, and someone tries to
explain much higher stuff to you. You just dont understand. But I am open minded and
as my awarness grows so will my knowledge.
darkrider
am just me at the moment, i have no title, no offering.
23rd May 2006, 09:40 PM
i come with empty hands, should you ask anything of me, i will answer all i can,
sincerest greetings, i have many questions burning within me, so please forgive that.
hello to all as well) so, is this really true, has sifu john chang really retired?can others
still find him and become students or be healed as before?....-humbly, darkrider
darkrider
24th May 2006, 05:11 PM

(please respond to the last one mopai) was sifu andreas, the one in the book, here?
could someone tell him that i want to speak to him?-humbly, darkrider
Antonius
24th May 2006, 05:41 PM
Darkrider,
Sifu John Chang has retired, and is no longer taking students. "Mopai" has not posted
on our forum in over a year. I don't think you are likely to get a response.
Best,
darkrider
24th May 2006, 10:12 PM

i read a far off post of yours antonius. and i understand more now. tell me though. will
he direct you to a senior student if you ask?-darkrider
Antonius
24th May 2006, 10:20 PM
Dear Darkrider,
I had some email correspondences with Sifu Andreas years ago, but I have not heard
from him in a long time. At one point, he had a website, but I do not know if he is still
teaching. You can try to find his website. But I would give up hope of contacting Sifu
Chang directly.
Best,
darkrider
25th May 2006, 05:54 PM

if only i had known about everything years ago.....sifu andreas....i pray he hasent given
up.........i meant about sifu john chang though, would you be directed to a higher-up
student if you asked?he hasent moved, has he? hes still where kosta was directed to
find him right?
lastly..why would you give up hope? all others who do only get turned away...(wheww)darkrider
Antonius
25th May 2006, 06:15 PM
Dear Darkrider,
Sifu Chang wants his privacy, and I for one respect his right to that privacy. I do not
know his current location, but as I understand it, he is intentionally difficult to find.
Even if you managed to find the town where he is living, you would never get a chance
to meet him.
I recommend that you either find Sifu Andreas, or find another teacher. There are
others out there, if you know where to look.
Best,
darkrider
25th May 2006, 07:05 PM
i agree, and respect that privacy too. but if we are destined by the winds of
heaven to go where we are, it is so. the game...has definitly moved since that
book was made...the easy way to play has been changed to a harder version...the
chess pieces have been shifted...knocked
off...whatever.....but the goal remains the same, no?
one question for you. why arent you going to him? it is true, so many will not
clear the gate, but so many will as well.
for now, as it has been for years since ive been alive again, theres always a chance to
move your player back to the beggining, and move it to the end, or the beggining? let
the game, begin.
-respect to all, darkrider
Antonius
25th May 2006, 07:13 PM

Why would I go to Sifu Chang when I've already found a high-level master?
"Why seek treasure outside when you have priceless jade at home?"
darkrider
25th May 2006, 07:24 PM
hey! is anyone else reading this, or is just no one there? comments and getting
involved(mabey) would be nice!!
darkrider
25th May 2006, 07:33 PM
the reason im here....the reason we're talking.....its because...my whole
life...ive searched for something, something more. ive always wanted to be a
warrior, every miserable day of my life, waiting to find that thing, an end to
the bleakness. this is the only real way to become one, you see. and here it
is. ive finally found it. the jade you so speak of is not in me. it is far away.i
speak the truth and tell no lies. it is not easy either to just sum up all this in
words either. nothing, i promise you to the sky, matters to me more than
this. ive been shredded my whole life, incomplete, with this though...i can
become whole, at last. and...i can help others...like me too..so they wont
have to go through what i went through ever again. -peace to all, darkrider
Tapio Raevaara
25th May 2006, 07:37 PM
Of course we are reading! :)

So, what I think? If Sifu Chang does not wish to be found (for whatever reason), we
should respect his decision and not even try to seek him out. Trying to get in touch with
him would be a poor use of time, it would be better spent trying to find another, willing
master.
Best Regards,
Tapio
Antonius
25th May 2006, 07:39 PM
The jade may not be inside you, but it is closer than you think. You just need to open
your eyes.
darkrider
25th May 2006, 07:44 PM
i have, antonius. and i see where it is. i was so blind to it for so long.-d
Tapio Raevaara
25th May 2006, 07:47 PM
Old Chinese proverb (I think):

When a student is ready, a teacher appears.
darkrider
25th May 2006, 07:51 PM
i dont know if the teacher is ready to appear.....but i am ready. ive been for years, and
id give up anything, or anyone, just to be a student.(nice proverb)d
from the heart, and soul, and body, anything....anything for this*
Tapio Raevaara
25th May 2006, 08:19 PM
I once thought for a long time that I'm ready. Teacher didn't appear, although it was a
close call. A year later I finally found my teacher and realized, that previously I wasn't
as ready as I thought. Obiously, I am not you, and I can only speak from my
experience.
I'm sorry to hear your life is miserable. But just like you think you're ready while you
actually may not be, your life may not be as miserable as you think. Perhaps it's your
clinging to your misery which makes it so. You can make your life better even without a
teacher, and you can start by smiling. :) Forget your misery for a while - when you
remember it again, you may find it's not there anymore.
There are lots of jades around, but you're not going to see them, if you keep your eyes
fixed on a single one - which seems to be out of your reach, behind a bulletproof glass.
Things have a way of sorting themselves out. I think it's best just to enjoy the ride,
there are always good things ahead. :)
Best Wishes,
Tapio
darkrider
25th May 2006, 08:36 PM

that is almost true. that would be nice....to be blissfully unaware of this...but...i can not
give up...as long as i hear the children cry!
Charles David
25th May 2006, 11:52 PM
Dear Dark Rider,

We have a good deal of Taoist influence in our school, so when Anthony says:
The jade may not be inside you, but it is closer than you think. You just need to open
your eyes. you may not be able to interpret his words quite correctly, mildly arcane as
they are.
Being a Shaolin Kung Fu school, we also treasure simple, direct and effective speech.
Allow me to interpret his "Taoist" words into "Zen" words:
Our own teacher, Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit, is a extraordinarily gifted teacher and
healer, as are many of the Instructors in our school. You might consider looking around
this forum and its related websites and decide if we might not be able to offer you what
you are looking for.
I was once in a situation like yours, so I understand your words well enough.
Still Human,
darkrider
26th May 2006, 08:25 PM
as i said. words alone are not enough to say what is.words are hollow,
never showing what we feel, which is as loud vast and clear as an ocean.
darkrider
26th May 2006, 09:14 PM

on that note, this is more than about me. this is about others, who's lives are litterally
in a box in living hell every minute, who will never see the light of day, and no one, not
no good person but me knows that this is happenning to them. the situation as it is is
bigger than that.
barrys
26th May 2006, 09:20 PM
Darkrider,
I spent years "knowing" there was something terribly wrong. When I managed to trust
that there was no mythical perfection everything started to look better. Before it
happened, when anyone told me that was what I needed to do, I didn't believe it, it
made me frightened and angry.
You are searching. It's being suggested to you that you are here. Take the opportunity.
What's the worst that could happen? You meet a bunch of nice people and nothing
changes. :)
Welcome,
Barry
darkrider
26th May 2006, 09:39 PM

i appreciate your experiences in life, especially as you are my senior. buti feel no anger,
and i feel no fear,only a great tiredness from walking life again , and, like i said, this is
big. so big, a person who has a positive look on life would hurl his guts if he knew what
i knew.
take heed everyone, there is a great ugliness in our world. i must do this to stop it,
even if i have to scrape after where im going.really.-i bow to you in the center of this
gathering,darkrider
barrys
26th May 2006, 11:39 PM
Darkrider,
Peace and blessings.
With a warm heart,
Barry
HugoDarien
Hi!
28th May 2006, 12:58 PM
Darkrider!
Here I meet a instructor that he said is the only one that teach Wang Liping teach and I
guess he have learn from the teacher of Magnus of Java!
Hes named is: Shen David ! But note he dont want to be contact only on this imail:
[email protected]
See
Regards Hugo
darkrider
28th May 2006, 10:59 PM
^ ^ ^ right right, you have your eye on the ball hugo:)

how would i contact him if he doesent want to be contacted only by mail?(tyty)
darkrider
28th May 2006, 11:02 PM
*bow* good karma your way for all eternity barrys. my path is going to be brutal, im
glad your life is a peacful one-respectfully, darkrider
HugoDarien
29th May 2006, 08:32 AM
how would i contact him if he doesent want to be contacted only by mail?(tyty)
yes you can contact him on that email!
He only don't wanted to be contact on the other email that you can read in the
Internet! Contact him on that imail he knows many good high masters and yes I belive
he said to me for a week ago that he have trained whit the Master of the Magnus of
Java many years! But don't be surprise if the fee are high I belive he told me that 1 day
coast 100 dollars or 1000 dollars I don't remember well!
I belive this is the best person you can contact!
I found many names of many Masters on this school: Universal Tao of Chi Nei Tsang
right now I don't have time to found the list but I hope you do!
PS I just didn't have much time like now!
Regards~Hugo
darkrider
30th May 2006, 08:28 PM

what do guys think of this?(who havent spoken) you know, no matter what, were all in
this together, and this is so larger than large, that you must have some feelings on this?
any women here think anything?-respectfully, darkrider
Charles David
What do we think of what, exactly?
30th May 2006, 08:37 PM
Inquiringly,
darkrider
30th May 2006, 08:46 PM
well, everything. neikung, the people who do it, the struggle for everone once they
make it to make it out alive so to speak. feels like the 1930's or something..... you
feel?- really, darkrider
beggarsu
30th May 2006, 09:08 PM
Hello darkrider :) ,
I personally agree with what some Shaolin Wahnam instructors have said in some
of their replies to you. I think you are overworrying a bit, perhaps try locating
another teacher. Certainly you should respect Sifu Chang's wishes and not seek him
out. Although genuine masters are rare today and the past, you can find one if you
seek earnestly. For example, if the conditions under which he took the vow haven't
changed, Swami Yogananda mentions in his book "Autobiography Of a Yogi" that the
great Saint, Mahavatara Babji, has been alive for millenia, and is still there
physically to this day on the Himalayas! There are also pictures of Saints like
Swami Trailanga, who are said to be very old such as 300 years, in the late 1800s,
and records of them being around in the 1600s! I'd have to give the same answer that
Sifu Anthony gave as to why I am not so worried and trying to seek out Sifu Chang or
other masters, as I train currently with a master under whom I have seen and
experienced things beyond anything I was familiar with before, and under who'se
training I obtain countless and uncomparable benefits. I would advise you to calm
down for awhile and enjoy life some while keeping on the lookout for other masters
or trying to properly and patiently arrange with a *willing* high level master
proper meetings.
kind thoughts ,
Aaron
darkrider
30th May 2006, 09:30 PM

i appreciate your thoughts, i really do, but im really not worrying like your saying. its
just that ive been searching for this my whole life, and now the conditions on the chess
board have changed. its very stressful, as well as stressful leading this sardonic and
boring thing that other people call ''life''(people who live around me) ive been so to
speak, in a box my whole life.all i want to do is do this thing ive searched for my
WHOLE life, and start living!:) i know there are such immortals out there that have
lived that long(even evil) but baby steps. not everybody can just approach a millenia
age immortal and start yapping.
appreciate your ideas alot, darkrider
AlexBaranosky
30th May 2006, 09:38 PM
Darkrider!
Welsome to our humble forum. I am not exactly sure what it is you want to know. What
is it that you need? What is (are) your aim(s)?
I am certain that Master Chang is not the sole holder of truth. I am sure there is
someone else who can help you.
All the Best,
Alex
darkrider
30th May 2006, 09:45 PM
well you make a hard argument there.

besides what i want, one of my aims, is to stop others from suffering as i did all these
years, and to help yet others along the path im going, i will, and dont just tell me, ''if
you really want to help, go join the firemen''r something.
please dont make me out as a big person, i am just as humble as you, and i only want
to be included, not excluded. thats one of the points of martial arts isnt it?
but what are your goals? your aims? ?
-very respectfully, darkrider
AlexBaranosky
30th May 2006, 10:38 PM
Darkrider,
Helping others is good. I don't think you should be a firmean, that is one crazy job! But
one thing I noticed in life is that you have to help yourself before you can be of much
help to those around you. You may already know this, of course...
I don't think anyone is not including you, and I didn't mean to say you weren't humble.
I just liked the sound of "our humble school" to be honest.
You have made repeated references to terrible things that have happened or do
happen. This is true, terrible things do happen and it is a shame. From my experience
and of those I know and care about, you have to find a way to let go of them and to
steadily but surely brush yourself off and move on to a new life of radiance, selfrespect, hope, and progress. One way to start doing that is just to Smile.
but what are your goals? your aims? ?
I want to be happy, healthy, at peace/content, to understand and be wise. And then to
help others do all those things once I am firmly doing so myself.
All the Best,
Alex
Charles David
Dear Darkrider,
31st May 2006, 03:22 AM
To answer your question:

what do you think about...everything
I think everything is wonderful
Regarding your second question
what do you tink about neikung and the people who practice it
I would say that I absolutely love practicing chi kung and I am not able to convey how
much learning this art has changed my life. The other people I have met who practice
genuine high level chi kung have been the most beautiful and inspiring people I have
ever met.
I hope you find what you are looking for.
With Shaolin Salute,
darkrider
31st May 2006, 07:20 PM

to truly say what im feeling, and this is what im feeling, open this link. i mean it.
http://us.share.geocities.com/bende_man/Carl_Douglas_Kung_Fu_Fighting.mp3
darkrider
okay, okay, try this one (sorry)
31st May 2006, 09:31 PM
http://us.share.geocities.com/guardian_shadows/Carl_Douglas_Kung_Fu_Fighting.mp3
AlexBaranosky
Dude!
31st May 2006, 09:46 PM
That one doesn't work either!

barrys
31st May 2006, 09:54 PM

I love that song :) . My daughter and I do a mean duet of it in the car :) .
Not quite sure where you are going with that though.
Still, best wishes,
Barry
mark v
31st May 2006, 10:14 PM
Dear Darkrider,
What will happen when you find this master.
Did lord Buddha and lord Jesus, not teach us enough to change ourselfs and help us to
heal the world.
If you can not find what you are looking for in there teachings.
You may have a problem. For there are no higher Masters.
I wish you good luck on your quest,
Seek and ye shall find....
AlexBaranosky
31st May 2006, 10:22 PM

What does the song "Kung-Fu Fighting" have to do with anything?
darkrider
aha! so it did work!!-nya ha ha, darkrider
darkrider
1st June 2006, 02:46 AM
1st June 2006, 08:19 PM
sigh..............try this one all.
okay, go to this site, and click on ''hear my voice''. it should work.
http://profiles.yahoo.com/tinoandsteve
i wish i could hear it barrys :)

AlexBaranosky
1st June 2006, 09:06 PM
If you're having trouble hearing that song "Kungfu Fighting" then click on this link.
**LINK** (http://www.myspace.com/12840351)
It's my myspace page which just happens to have that song playing. (and it's been that
way for a couple weeks, there are NO COINCIDENCES I TELL YA!)...
darkrider
2nd June 2006, 01:20 AM
what does that mean? ''there are no coincidences i tell ya''? ?

AlexBaranosky
2nd June 2006, 04:00 AM
It means that I happened to have Kungfu Fighting as my song on Myspace.
darkrider
2nd June 2006, 04:16 AM
;) ah, i see, therefore, it is

HugoDarien
Dear darkrider do you contacted Sifu: Shen David :confused:
darkrider
2nd June 2006, 01:13 PM
2nd June 2006, 05:41 PM
i have not gotten that far yet hugo-shen david?:confused:

i like writing words like that too, but it confusing:)
HugoDarien
i have not gotten that far yet hugo-shen david?:confused:
5th June 2006, 11:18 AM
Why not darkrider?

i like writing words like that too, but it confusing:)
not at all!
:cool:
darkrider
6th June 2006, 03:25 AM
wait wait wait, please refraise all that. starting from your last message, because i have
no idea what you said at all, except for the thank you part.-respectfully, darkrider
Antonius
6th June 2006, 03:33 AM
Okay folks, what does any of this have to do with "The Magus of Java"? Please stick to
the topic, or take the conversation to private messages, or to another thread.
Thanks.
darkrider
6th June 2006, 07:52 PM
:D i know i know, i was waiting for the hugos next response then i was going to ask
somebody to start talking again.(this was starting to be really funny to me) i have news
by the way, hugo and everyone.-darkrider :D
darkrider
6th June 2006, 08:04 PM
i coudent wait for the next reply of somebody.

i have talked with sifu shen, and the news is not very good.
kosta, was forbidden to do the mo pai training. and though this was said, he had
students, who could not pass level 1.
sifu andreas,though a good man, is still struggling to get past level 2 as we speak.
as far as i can see, kostas only destiny in this was to bring the word to other places, not
to suceed. what a shame........
there is much discord in the mo-pai, since the highest leader is half retiring, half not,
and thus is not teaching the students 100% of the time.
but lo and ho, there are many other paths people, so where this door shuts, there are
more to walk through. dont give up.
-more later, darkrider
HugoDarien
7th June 2006, 08:20 AM
Thanks Darkrider For Talking Whit Sifu Shen!:)

Tu Le
Hi there darkrider,
7th June 2006, 10:24 AM
Could you answer this please? I thought that both Master Kosta and Master Andreas are
currently still mopai members but was only allowed to pass their current level because
of a certain incident in 2004. Could you please confirm this?
Thanks. Tu Le.
Tu Le
7th June 2006, 10:31 AM

One more question, sorry to bother you. Is Master Kosta level 3 or 4? Note: level 5 is
fusing yin and yang (from a Mopai student).
darkrider
7th June 2006, 05:41 PM

what i said tu le was what sifu shen told me. i sensed discoured in the mo-pai, and he
seemed to confirm it. beware though. the only problem with the written word is that
anyone can say what they want. this could very well be being used to dicourage anyone
in the u.s. from going to the mo-pai. what i said could be true, or kosta and andreas
could be at a slowly climbing level. so many things though will happen that ill never
know because im here. im sorry i cant confirm it. remember though people, look for the
other doors. knocking at only one will not work all the time.-anything else?-darkrider
(no problem asking questions by the way tu le)

darkrider
7th June 2006, 06:50 PM

my dad once said, oh yeah, kosta got past level four'', when i asked him long ago if
kosta ever made it. well, i dont know any more. he says he did, sifu shen says he
dident, now you say he did. i really dont know anymore. it appears as though either
master sifu john chang stopped teaching him, or this is intentionally being said to
discourage. you have to have a very strong will for this........
darkrider
7th June 2006, 06:52 PM
:) your very welcome hugo. it was a pleasure doing it, and some should know whats
going on.:)
HugoDarien
THANK YOU! ;) I hope someday you find your teacher! :)
darkrider
8th June 2006, 11:15 AM
8th June 2006, 03:35 PM
peace forever, hugo. domo, domo, domo:)

and thank you:)
Tu Le
Darkrider,
Hugo,
9th June 2006, 07:35 PM
Man, you are blessed with good karma to have the contacts of all these masters. The
"will of heaven" or Jodo must be in your favour. Hopefully, you will train under a good
one.
Darkrider,
Did Sifu Shen tell you what level he was?
Have you had any experience in his abilities? Did he elaborate to you on his experiences
in the Mopai?
darkrider
9th June 2006, 07:43 PM
:o
ive apologized so many times to heaven for all the bad things ive done
after reading the magus of java second time, i felt enlightment, at last i had found god,
once and for all, and at last, i knew that i had to be responsible for my
actions, because judgement existed......before...i almost turned evil....the

only thing keeping me from going that far was freinds gone, who i dident
want to forget.......and since then, ive tried to turn my actions all the way
around. i even apologized to the master for everything i had done wrong and
evil, everthing in one sentence. im honored by you tu le-praise the good, god help the
damned, humbled
darkrider
9th June 2006, 07:48 PM

he hasent told me yet though what level he is or anything. but hes been
studyin nei-kung for over 15 years, and hes an archeologist. im too humbled in
his presence and unaquianted to ask that yet. i feel its something
special, like invading his private space for now. he has told me that
he met many masters, including, god bless him, master john chang.-peace, darkrider
HugoDarien
Thanks: Darkrider and Tu Le for your words!:)
16th June 2006, 02:34 PM
Night ! :rolleyes:
Jak
17th June 2006, 11:22 AM

Well....I enjoyed the various responses to the Mo=Pai sect. Has anyone spoken to any
senior students of Wang Li Ping? It appears that besides the book - Opening the Dragon
Gate - there has been virtually nothing in relation to the group.
Whats the deal?
Thanks,
Jak
ps I sent an e to Sifu Wong Kiew Kit and haven't gotten a reply - yet.
HugoDarien
Good Day! Jak :)
19th June 2006, 11:00 AM
As I longer know: Sifu: Shen told me that he are the only one certified instructor or
teacher that have learn from Sifu: Wang Liping and that he, Sifu Shen are the only one
that are certified to teach in all the part of the worlds there Wang Liping don't
teach( outside China I believe)!
He told me that the only way to be contact whit Sifu: Wang Liping is to at least learn
few days from him, and then you may could see or talk to Wang Liping, Sifu: Shen have
many photos of Master: Wang Liping but he didn't want or can show those to the
public! except to the ones that are practicing Master: Wang Liping Chi Kung etc!
I hope this may be a help to you! Hey you can contact and ask Sifu: Shen for your self!
Regards ~
Hugo
Jak
Hugo:
19th June 2006, 08:58 PM
Hi! Thanks for getting back to me, I appreciate it. I would like to speak or email Sifu
Shen if possible. It's interesting that Sifu Liping is no longer teaching or if he is..his
students are difficult to find.
How do you know this Sifu Shen? Does he have a website or does he teach privately?
Anyway....thanks again for the feedback.
Jak
HugoDarien
20th June 2006, 12:26 PM

Hugo:Hi! Thanks for getting back to me, I appreciate it.
Good Day amiable good beautiful healthful immense in love friend of pure heart Jak!
hey is always good for good in fact to hear from you such kind of words something that
I hear almost never!
How do you know this Sifu Shen? Does he have a website or does he teach privately?
Jak
When I had read the Book: open The Dragon Gate I was interesting in find some
teacher or Wang Liping itself on the Internet!
But of all the Sifu's I ask about Wang Liping only Sifu Shen answer me! The first page I
found about Sifu Shen and that I saw his email was this ( this email that are on this
Homepage- [email protected] he said is only for students so he give me this
other Email: [email protected] that any one can ask him about any thing
about Chi and Masters!
http://mantak-chia-universal-tao.com/instructors_practitioners/table/table_cntp1.html
More information about him you can find here:
http://www.tao-garden.com/Inst/InfoInst.php?typeID=509
I believe the only Homepage about him and others masters are this:
http://www.universal-tao.com/
Regards ~Hugo :) :p
3rdlevelMoPai
10th August 2006, 01:38 AM

Hello to all those interested
I just came across this site and read much of the past comments since 2002!
Just wanted to let all those interested in Mo Pai/Nai Gong to know that Kosta and
Andreas have sent you off into two entirely different directions.
What I mean by that is Kosta was considered by John Chang to be unworthy because of
his book. You see, it wasn't what John wanted or expected. So, around 2000 John said
he wouldn't continue teaching Kosta, and he is no longer considered a student, even
though he made it out that he was. Andreas keeps telling eveyone that John Chang has
retired, but this isn't true. And I might add that the truth doesn't hurt to be told, even
here.
I felt it is important for people to know the reality of this aspect of Mo Pai and John.
Andreas is known for his "secretive" nature. He likes to make things appear to be
mysterous than they really need to be. The truth is, John was forced to "retire" because
he was told by "his spirit master" (two before his immediate teacher) that he could not
be Mo Pai's master any longer because he allowed non-Chinese into the school. You
see, John made a promise to his teacher NOT to teach non-Chinese...and he broke his
promise on three different times: Kosta, Andreas and me. This is the real reason why
he has retired from the leadership of Mo Pai.
Yes, I am the first ever Westerner to be excepted into Mo Pai back in November 1990!
Pak John was surprised to have an American on his door step asking to be a student. It
was in June, 2000 that I finally reached the 3rd/2B level. While my teacher Pak John is
no longer my teacher I am still practicing daily.
It was sometime in 1994-5 I believe when Kosta came to find Pak John. (John Chang
isn't he real name, but a name to make it harder for people to find him) The word "Pak"
is used as a respectful expression of endearment toward my teacher, it loosely means
father. I still refer to him using this. It was in 1996 that Andreas started calling Pak
John, sher-fu. But prior to that time Pak John never knew or was called that. He simply
told me to refer to him as John.
In Kosta's book of course are going to be a few language problems, I had them all the
time when I was with Pak John. However, Pak John was a little problematic...I found he
"changed" his stories. To hear his talk early in the 1990's, and then to hear them
through Kosta's eyes/ears was strange to me. While John means well, I believe he is
something of a man that needs attention and gets it. That is why he allowed the first
documentary to be done...and he wasn't happy with that either. In 1996 when
Lawrence Blair came to make another documentary only about John, it turned out to be
just another mishap and John was unhappy. It seems it didn't feature him in what he
was expecting, just like Kosta's book. It was supposed to be strickly and only about
John, but it was mostly about Kosta. As intelligent as he thinks he is, he never
understood this aspect with John. Kosta isn't and never will become a 4th level, he is
"still" only a second level.
He maybe something else in another school however. It seems likely he found another
teacher because he is a determined person. It literally takes years to advance, I've
been at it since 1990 and am only at the third level. I am/was Pak Johns most
dedicated student. All his other 3rd level students couldn't perform at a demonstration
for third level students. He was severly dissapointed and told me so. All of them failed
when they were supposed to push a chop stick threw a piece of board. I can say that all
the things Kosta said about Pak John's abilities are completely true. Lawrence Blair's
second documentary included my testing whenI was shot and moved boxes from a
distance, etc.
However, Kosta got it wrong on many things, people don't die from incorrect third level
training. He also didn't realize that only dedicated students Pak John liked would test
them at ten times their arm length...Kosta said two other students were tested at five.
This is because he knows who is truly a dedicated student. He also mentioned that his
pellet didn't get smashed when he was shot, it was because low level students don't get
the rifle pumped up as much as when a higher student performs. My pellets were
literally smashed. I had to laugh at his concepts why his wasn't. I guess he likes to
over-intellectualize eveything...didn't you get that impression from his book?
Also, Pak John didn't have to hold me or touch me when I was shot, at the third level
your Dan Tien is full, whereas as level two it isn't. By-the-way, Andreas, isn't Pak John's
spoksman, John is old enough to communicate to others how and what he feels. It is
just a quirk of behavioral nature that some people like to make others think they are
more special than they are, and Andy is just such a guy. I know for a fact that he very
seldom trained. Even when I spoke to him on the phone, he was impressed at how
much time I trained...it was becasue he didn't train. Even Pak John knew this and didn't
give him any more to do way before his retirement.
When I was in Indonesia with John, Andy was there with his dad, who I really liked. He
was more interested in chasing those beautiful little Indonesian ladies, not to mention
that he is a heavy, heavy beer drinker. So, when he was there he wasn't real interested
in training from my perspective. So, when he talks he does know a lot about what he is
talking about, but as a student of Mo Pai, he really isn't one; he just talks a big story!
When I first met John he was treating a guy from California who had been in car
accident some years ago and lost the use of his legs. He went to see if John could help
him, he also had this attitude of protecting John too as if he was his protector also. One
of Pak John's longest and closet friends, Henky isn't this way. So this means that what
John wants is somehow turned around by Andy. Both these two guys act as though they
are "still" his students as he is retiring. This just couldn't be further from the truth.
Andy was asked by Pak John to make a copy of something he wanted me to see, it took
Andy three years to finally send it to me, but only after I emailed him and called him so
many times. As much as I wanted to help Andy he didn't like or want to help me. I
neively considered him a brother student, but he seldom if ever would keep up his
friendship with me. I even went to Brisbane to see him and his father, an act of
friendship that was never returned. He continued to remain alusive and vague. When I
asked him about our teacher's teachers, he gave me different names to try and throw
me off. Pak John finally gave them to me and this is when I finally realized that Andy
was in a different ball park than I.
After, so many years of visiting Pak John, in Indonesia, and Santa Clara, California
where his daughter and Son-in-law live. I have much to tell and have seen much. And
much of what Kosta said about John's abilities are very real, you would be very ignorant
not to believe them. I know that some of you guys really want to believe and question
whether John is real or not. He is real, I've been at his side almost every year since
1990 till he was told he couldn't be the master of Mo Pai in 2003. I have a very short
tape of my testing for moving on to the third level. I can let some of you see it if you're
interested. The testing is only for validating that your Dan Tien is full, so it is
short...and the rest of the tape is of Pak John's teaching for the third level, this I will
not show...unless I know you personally and know your intentions.
I've documented all the levels to the fourth level. While Pak John didn't teach me this
level, I've acquired the information from our many talks and put it together. If anyone
is interest, I will gladly tell you how to do the first and second levels...and the
phenomena that is associated with training. This is most important, as it validated your
training and allowed Pak John to know exactly where you are and when to be tested. He
would never tell me what I was to experience, but rather I was to tell him...like I would
make it up or something! Anyway, happy trails to all. If you are interested, I am free to
discuss openly. Sorry this is so long, but there is much to say...Jim
Andrew
Jim,
10th August 2006, 07:23 AM
I had so much difficulty reading your post that I have edited it. The original post was
one extremely long paragraph so I have edited the formatting to make it easier to read.
I have not changed ANY of the content. The editing was done so that any of our
members who are interested can read the post more easily.
Please, in future posts, consider the ease of reading for members here. I don't intend to
edit your future posts. Most people will not bother to read such long unformatted
paragraphs.
Thanks,
Andrew
Antonius
Dear Jim,
10th August 2006, 11:31 AM
Thanks for that account, and welcome to our forum. Interesting stuff. Do you think that
Sifu Chang (Pak John) would be happy that you are sharing your version of the truth?
Best,
Konoha1401
10th August 2006, 11:43 AM

I've documented all the levels to the fourth level. While Pak John didn't teach me this
level, I've acquired the information from our many talks and put it together. If anyone
is interest, I will gladly tell you how to do the first and second levels...and the
phenomena that is associated with training. This is most important, as it validated your
training and allowed Pak John to know exactly where you are and when to be tested.
Dear 3rdlevelmopai (Jim),
I am certainly very interested. How does a Mo-Pai student do the first and second levels
and what are the phenomena associated with training?
With gratitude,
- Konoha1401
Zhang Wuji
11th August 2006, 04:19 AM
Thanks Jim for taking the time to write all that. I enjoyed reading your posts, since the
Magus of Java and Nei Kung are two of my favourite books, and it is interesting to read
about a different perspective.
I have learnt long ago not to believe everything I read and I was always wondering if
anything Mr Danaos wrote was inaccurate. That said, I found his exposition of Mo Pai
very fascinating. I certainly believe all the feats that Master John is said to have done.
Previous Shaolin masters and my Sifu today have done many of them, so rest assured
that we are not ignorant of what Master John can do.
The yin-yang aspect of MoPai neigong has always fascinated me. Let me quickly
summarise for those who have not read the book. Mr Danaos (Kosta) has stressed the
interaction of yin and yang energies. To achieve Level 4, yin and yang energy must be
brought together in the dantian. If the power of the yin energy is not harnessed, the
yang energy will stay within the limits of the human body.
Most of these theories are in line with what I do know about Taijiquan theory. I have
read classics attributed to Zhang Sanfeng that he had combined yin and yang within his
own body. The idea that yin force is required to send energy outside the body also fits
with the available facts. It is surprising to me that the well-known but elusive "empty
force", the power to move things or strike from a distance has been mastered by so
few. If empty force is a function of how much internal force one has, then generations
of diligent masters should have no difficulty in sending energy blasts out of their
fingertips. Yet, empty force is a very rare art. It appears that there is something more
to empty force than simply having a great deal of internal force. I have always
wondered if yin energy (or rather, mastery of it) is the "missing link".
Some of the phenomena in Mo Pai training at Level 3 and above are found in other
systems too, including our own. I don't know about levitation but our Sifu has written
about Ho Fatt Nam Shigong s classmate being able to walk through walls and Yang
Fakun Tai Shigong's ability to astral-travel. As for telekinesis, our Sifu is famous for
moving clouds.
Speaking of levitation, I wonder if the art of qingong can explained through yin yang
interaction. Kosta wrote that yang qi wants to go up and is in direct opposition to yin qi.
It is the yin force of gravity that keeps us stuck on earth while the yang qi is a force
that seeks to expand outwards. I thought this was quite a good theoretical basis to
explain why qinggong masters could leap several metres or land safely from cliffs - they
were tapping into the yang energy's opposition to gravity.
Jim, I am also interested to hear your take on Kosta's explanation of how one is unhurt
by air gun pellets. You have written that the pellets are smashed when fired at higher
power, but what accounts for your not being hurt. Is it the yin force that converts that
kinetic energy into something else? Would this be the same power that protected
Master John when he was in a car accident, ie, that the crushing force was dissipated or
simply re-directed? I ask this because this seems to be an extremely high level of
Taijiquan - the power to neutralise an incoming force and change it into nothingness.
Lastly, I apologise if I seem to be talking about things I do not understand. I certainly
have no experience with most of the things I wrote above, which are merely intellectual
musings that came up when reading the books by Kosta. Still, I thought they would
make for an interesting discussion.
3rdlevelMoPai
Andrew - Thanks, I'll remember...
-------------------------------------------------Anthony - Thanks for the welcome.
11th August 2006, 08:23 PM
In light of the fact that Pak John thought the world was ready for learning about his
school and Nai Gong, and the fact that he simply dropped me without any concern in
favor of his own karma. While I can't really say what he is really feeling, I would have
to say it doesn't matter to him anylonger, at least that is what I am telling myself...I do
know that he has accepted his fate and wants nothing more than to train "by" himself.
You have to know the Indonesian culture to understand his behavior, especially his
background.
On the surface, their culture may appears similar, but it really isn't...if you lived there
for any length of time, you'll know what Indonesian "rubber time" means.
Not too long from now Pak John will be moving to Bali for "the rest of his life" in
reclusive training, only his wife will be with him. He was going to take two of his
students before all this happened, but now he will train alone, until he dies...a sad fate
for us, but it was his attitude that Nai Gong should not be surpressed, I'm just
following/carrying his dream, and mine.
I taught three different martial arts and never "just walked" away from my students, or
left them dangling, I could never do that when you consider the devotion your students
give you. Ever read Andreas's website, Pak John was quoted as saying, "...never hurt
anyone's heart..." Well, I will leave it at that. Jim
3rdlevelMoPai
11th August 2006, 09:01 PM
Konoha1401
Before I say anything about the first two levels, please let me know your intentions with
the knowledge of Mo Pai's Nai Gong? I do not want it wasted upon wanna-bees or for
you to put it in your knowledge "bank" and wish you could do it and never get around
to it. You have to be truthful with your self and know that you have what it takes to
endure the years of long hours in meditation/concentration; being interested isn't
enough. If you only want to train for a year, I can't help you...but talk to me more,
OK...you have to be dedicated! To show my dedication to my teacher, I went to
Indonesia to find him not knowing where he was or his name, that said something to
him. Give me your email address. We'll talk more.
I would love to tell you all about the phenomena that has happened to me. Several
come directly from the Nai Gong training, and I will explain later, but there is also the
"other side"...strange things seem to happen, as well as appear before you. Once when
I told Pak John about something that happened to me he looked over to another person
and said quietly...must be spirits...I really didn't like the sound of that, but it is really
exciting when something does happen. After all, you spend so much time in reclusive
training, and anything that happens can pick you up.
Some of your senses really heighten, but everyone is different and other things will
happen to you than what has happened to me. Pak John would always say when I tell
him what happened to me..."Aw yesss." It seems he would remember something
similar but would kept it to himself. I'll be more specific in email because of the
controversial nature...I'm not so sure this is for the masses. Jim
3rdlevelMoPai
Zhang Wuji
11th August 2006, 11:14 PM
I too find solace in Kosta's books, it seems to be a central point for people's hopes. I
just wish Kosta would have been more truthful from making everyone think he is still on
the good side with Pak John, but this deception helps his book sales I suppose.
If I hadn't believed in Lawrence Blair's documentary or his book I would not have ever
searched for Pak John, and I would not have experienced what I had, I am thankful I
trusted my heart. Sometimes you gotta believe. The problem is, most of us can't tell
when our heart are telling the truth. Oh yes, please excuse me if I offended you, I
didn't mean ignorance as an insult.
I do not know Kosta. But I get an impression from the way he spoke about himself, and
I will remain neutral until I meet him. I hope that will be soon, as I sent him a letter the
other day.
Correction: In level 4, the two energies are not brought together in the Dan Tian. They
are brought together "down" to a lower area; this is the yin yang picture you seen.
I would very much like to talk to you about Taijiquan, as I am ignorant about it. I am
familiar with "Empty Force". When Pak John when on his retreat in Borneo for two
years, I didn't know what to do, I found an alleged Chi Gong master who had a little
power. When I visited him he demonstrated what power he had but couldn't knock me
over as he claimed he could. I did feel his Chi removing or pushing my Chi aside which
made me instantly ill, but it

didn't do what he said it would do. I asked my teacher later about it and he said my yin
prevented him from doing what he said he could do. Anyway, you may have heard of
him, Paul Dong (real name). He has written two books. Fun reading, but you can't
compare him to Nai Gong. There just isn't as much power. He (Paul) did tell me that he
had a teacher in China who is much more powerful than he, but again, it is only the
development of the yang. He teaches "Empty Force," in his training called "Standing on
Stake." One of his books teaches this. He is a really humble man at seventy years old
and living in the Bay area.
There are several Chinese in San Francisco who are more powerful than Paul; some are
surprisingly younger. But Empty Force is alive and well and is really not very rare or too
far away, as Paul is teaching many causian students this in a local park center.
Masters of Nai Gong can do many things as you have stated, it is just a matter of which
level your at that determines what they can do. Pak John doesn't have total levitation,
but partial. He said in a few more years of training he will have mastered it completely.
At present, he literally can jump over a house. The only draw back is he has to meditate
for two weeks to prepare. But Chi Gong, or the development only of yang can literally
do some strange and powerful things despite being a weaker development.
When I was in Indonesia I had come across another type of Chi Gong school, as there
are many in Java. This one was called Kalimasada. I met the grand master family of the
school. They only teach up to a certain level and keep the rest strickly for the family. At
the master level, they can ignite paper into fire and knock over items from a distance. I
wanted to test them first hand but didn't get the chance. However, I don't believe this is
"yin." Pak John said that all these "other" schools are only based in yang, and have
nothing to do with Nai Gong training.
My internal force has been developed to a great degree. However, I need Pak John's yin
in order to "shoot" out my Chi...as I can't do it on my own, darn! But, several years ago
when I was in Pak John's home testing, I was supposed to knock over glass cups...I
kind of missed and literall broke a one-inch thick glass table top from my expelled Chi.
Pak John said that when he checks my Chi for the third level I have to break a tree!? I
ask him how thick and he said about six inches thick. I wish I had the necessary yin to
do this, but it only comes from long, hard and difficult training. I am not so sure it is so
terribly painful as Kosta said. To levitate, John said that one must have yin, as yang
alone isn't capable of the power to do so.
Also, yin force doesn't "redirect" or convert, as Pak John said to me. It has something
to do with a force or energy that simply protects one, you would see the difference
once you've been shot. The Karis' knives have this power also. The first time I saw
them respond to Pak John I thought I was dreaming. A book entitled "Magic and
Mystery in Tibet" also tells about this aspect too.
I have a feeling much of the information you're talking about in other systems are very
similar to Mo Pai's. However, after doing much research in Tibetan mysticism, I found
they have several schools that approach the same power or ability with totally different
training. If you know anything about them you'll know they are not to be scoffed at,
they really have powerful masters that are stronger than Pak John. You really need to
read "Magic and Mystery in Tibet" It is really an exciting true-life adventure. Look it up
in your library, if not there, do a "interloan library search." She, (Alexandra David-Neel)
discusses her interactions with lonely, mystic masters and has many esoteric
experiences.
The air rife event is simply the Nai Gong power or energy that protects the developed
individual. When I was shot the second time there was a very, very small red dot that
appeared, but it wasn't the same for my hand...there was nothing to be concerned
about. When this event happened, there were many people around taping the event.
Several were focused upon my stomach and recorded just how little impact it had, yet
the pellet was literally smashed, and there was not much of a reaction on my skin
either. It really was something to see. Prior to doing this test I developed a severe
headache that lasted all day. Kosta was wrong about if you doubt it would be harmful, I
did and still had no problem.
Also, maybe we are experiencing semantics in our discussion. Were probably talking
about much of the same the thing but using different words/language. I appreciate and
welcome your inquisitive nature. I wish you could have been there to see the actual
events. If and when Lawrence ever releases his latest documentary you'll see one of my
testings. Hopefully, when I finally attain some visible power/abilities on my own I can
demonstrate them as my teacher did for his students, but I can't say when this will
happen. Jim
Konoha1401
12th August 2006, 05:50 AM
Dear 3rdlevelMoPai,
I am certainly not only interested, but have devoted my life to this training. Yes, my
entire life. I have gotten rid of many petty attachments.
I have learnt from a master and practising his chi kung everyday. I've also bought
many, many taoist meditation/chi kung books/tapes. Many of them do not contain the
proper teachings. I am lost at what direction to go.
I have saved up for a plane ticket to travel to Indonesia to find Pak John, but decided
not to purchase my plane ticket, because of your recent posts. Since you appeared, my
heart has opened.
My aims:
- Be forever healthy. I would like to remain healthy for the rest of my life. I would wish,
being at the age of 60 maintaining the flexibility of limbs (not developing arthritis), fit
enough to compete with youngsters in sports, and enough mental clarity to say,
complete a college degree.
- I also aim to be fit at a high level. Having close to limitless endurance. Since level 2
deals with filling up the dan tien, my aim of accomplishing qinggong and high level
endurance will be quicker. I have the actual training methods of qinggong. However, my
current chi kung master's system does not emphasize on building energy at the Dan
Tien, but circulating energy, whereas in your system it seems as though it starts off by
building energy (basing this from Kosta's book). I believe that qinggong is only
accomplished if you have sufficient energy to lift you up (making you lighter). Thus, I
decided that Mo-Pai nei kung would serve this purpose very well.
I know its going to take blood, sweat, and guts (don't mean that literally ofcourse)
which is why I have dedicated my life to nei kung training.
I would love to hear your stories in my e-mail. But, in my opinion, it would be unfair to
those on this forum who are interested in hearing them. A few (or many?) forum
members here are actual believers of spirits, entities, etc and there are posts on
experiences with spirits on this forum, so feel free to post your experiences here. I
hope the moderators agree with me here.
My e-mail: [email protected]
With sincere gratitude,
Konoha1401
Konoha1401
Another thing.
12th August 2006, 06:57 AM
I am willing to dedicate at least and only at least 3 hours to training every day. If I'm
not working, then, the more the merrier. That is, I'll train the whole day. If I don't train
at least 3 hours, then I don't deserve training. If prompted to do so, I would give my
life to last this limit.
(reason for 3 hours, is because there are other thunder path masters who expect their
students to practise nei kung at least this required time. Not to mention, the long
periods of sexual retention associated with it. I'm willing to do the same.)
With peace and gratitute.
- Konoha1401
Zhang Wuji
12th August 2006, 08:33 AM
Correction: In level 4, the two energies are not brought together in the Dan Tian. They
are brought together "down" to a lower area; this is the yin yang picture you seen.
I would very much like to talk to you about Taijiquan, as I am ignorant about it.
Anyway, you may have heard of him, Paul Dong (real name). He has written two
books.
Masters of Nai Gong can do many things as you have stated, it is just a matter of which
level your at that determines what they can do. Pak John doesn't have total levitation,
but partial.
But Chi Gong, or the development only of yang can literally do some strange and
powerful things despite being a weaker development.
At the master level, they can ignite paper into fire and knock over items from a
distance. However, I don't believe this is "yin." Pak John said that all these "other"
schools are only based in yang, and have nothing to do with Nai Gong training.
My internal force has been developed to a great degree. However, I need Pak John's yin
in order to "shoot" out my Chi...as I can't do it on my own, darn!
To levitate, John said that one must have yin, as yang alone isn't capable of the power
to do so.
Also, yin force doesn't "redirect" or convert, as Pak John said to me. It has something
to do with a force or energy that simply protects one, you would see the difference
once you've been shot.
Also, maybe we are experiencing semantics in our discussion. Were probably talking
about much of the same the thing but using different words/language.
HI Jim
thanks for replying to me, and to all of us. It is much appreciated. I am afraid I do not
have time to respond to your informative posts, I thought I would quickly comment on
the portions from your post I have pasted above.
Yes, I agree that a lot of differences could be semantic in nature. Generally, our system
does not distinguish between yin and yang energy. Reflecting our Zen Buddhist roots
(which does not in any way displace the Taoist teachings), our training is centred on
tapping and receiving cosmic energy, circulating qi (chi to you) and building internal
force.
The concept of combining yin and yang, which seems to be central to Mo Pai training,
and is the basis for the powers and phenomena. Could you elaborate more on what kind
of difference "yin force" would make? As you have alluded to in your post, yang force
(qigong or chi gong) itself could be very powerful. Unless i am mistaken, the yin-yang
combination in the Mo Pai is the central training method to achieve the powers Master
John in known for, but such powers can also be attained through other means in other
systems, including those with purely "yang force". I would be interested in understand
what you mean by yang develoment being a "weaker development".
Finally, I should make it clear that while i am very interested and curious about the Mo
Pai, I have no intention of pursuing this neigong training, having found the best Master
I know in Wong Sifu. As such, if you feel that you would prefer not to reveal any more
information, i am fine with it. I am grateful as it is that you have provided so much
information, and thank you once again.
Antonius
Dear Konoha
12th August 2006, 01:48 PM
You mentioned a few objectives in learning the Mo Pai system. Basically, you want
randiant health into old age. My experience with people seeking Mo Pai is that most of
them are after paranormal powers, not health, so your post struck me as unusual. If
you are seeking radiant health, then you need not seek the ends of the earth. Nor do
you need to practice for 3 hours a day. All you need is 15 minutes, twice a day. And you
only need travel as far as Las Vegas this October.
Many people think that this sounds too good to be true, but it's not. Those who have
learned from Sifu Wong and practiced what he teaches know this from direct
experience. Radiant health is at our fingertips thanks to the skills taught by Sifu Wong.
Is this "power" any more far-fetched than those described in "Magus of Java"?
I must admit to being curious about Mo Pai. The stories are fascinating, and so are the
abilities described. However, my curiosity remains just that -- curiosity. Like Zhang
Wuji, I've already found what I'm looking for, and have no need to search any further.
Sifu Wong is more powerful than many people think -- and many people already think
that he's powerful. I do not know if he is as powerful as Pak John or not, but certainly,
he is easier to get tuition from. And more importantly, he is the healthiest, happiest
person I know.
Respectfully,
Konoha1401
12th August 2006, 05:04 PM
Dear Antonius,
I am partially aware of how remarkable your Sifu is, basing this off the limited
knowledge on the internet, as well as direct experience. I am convinced that he has
helped literally thousands. As I compared martial arts from kung fu to karate and the
Shaolin Wahnam videos, I know that his school still holds one of the best kung fu
sparring methodology today, due to the short number of generation transmissions
directly from the Shaolin Temple , which is why I am planning to attend an Intensive
Shaolin Kung Fu course if I am accepted as a student. I too, hold a high regard of your
Sifu as well.
Right now I aim to practise mainly mo-pai chi kung and nei kung for those above
mentioned reasons. I also need to genuinely experience, not just read and faithfully
believe, the supernatural powers. I need to see to what extent the human potential is
truly capable of. My main emphasis is on qinggong. Please, do not attempt to annihilate
my goals.
At this point I do not wish to reveal any more info about myself, except to Jim.
I do have one question for everyone. How does Wong Sifu move clouds without ever
aiming to develop yin energy, or combine yin and yang at the perinium and control the
thunderbolt, etc? It's pretty marvellous skill at whatever angle you look at it. I know
that he has achieved the Microcosmic and Macrocosmic Orbit, but I am not sure if he
has combined yin and yang energies, or has developed or control both yin and yang
energies, which is a prerequisite for telekinesis. (Correct me if I'm wrong).
Has anyone had the honour to witness Wong Sifu dispersing clouds? If so, then can you
please elaborate on your experience. If you are relunctant to do so, I understand.
Oh, did I mention my gratitude to Jim for posting. I guess not. Thank you Jim for your
posts. It saved me a great deal of money and cleared a lot of misconceptions from
Kosta's book.
Regards with peace and gratitude,
- Konoha
Konoha1401
12th August 2006, 06:11 PM

I forgot to mention in my previous post, while I was looking at Shaolin Wahnam videos,
I immediately felt attracted to the peaceful nature of Shaolin Wahnam sparring. The
reason: I would rather spar slow and steady with no contact using forms(and later
speeding up) then to kickbox randomly while suffering injuries. In my opinion, it helps
develop skills, and both sparring practitioners end up happy.
Tapio Raevaara
12th August 2006, 07:21 PM
Please, do not attempt to annihilate my goals.
We wouldn't do such thing, unless your goals were of evil nature. But are you sure
what, exactly, your goals really are? I don't believe being (extremely) healthy is what
you truly seek.
Shaolin monks dedicated their lives to their practice, too. But they did not seek merely
health and endurance (which is a result of a good health) but something of a
completely different magnitude: the highest possible attainment - Enlightenment. Good
health was only a by-product.
What will happen when you reach your aim? You're 60 years old, you've spent 60 years
to reach the mid-point of your life. Your purpose is fulfilled. You look back, but what do
you see? What have you achieved? Do you have friends and family? Are you happy?
What does your future look like? Where to now? How are you going to utilize your hardearned health and endurance? What would be the purpose of doing so?
What are you willing to give up to reach these goals?
In my honest opinion health should never be our ultimate goal. That would be a waste
of time. Being our birth-right, health is something we should claim at the very
beginning. It helps us in our journey to reach our higher goals.
It's much the same with so-called supernatural abilities. In the end, it's really quite
irrelevant what they are. What they can give you is much more important - how can we
put them into good use, to enrich our lives, perhaps to seek spiritual fulfillment.
Without purpose, these skills are empty. If I spend twenty years to be able to jump
high and run fast and long, I must have a pretty solid reason - the reason is not to be
able to jump high and run fast and long.
Now it's time for some exceptionally wise words (Thank you, temple_dog, for providing
them (http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31702&postcount=16)!):
Shakyamuni Buddha was walking by a river and met a yogi who recognized the Buddha
and wanted to impress him with his skills. The yogi explained to the Buddha, "I have
been practicing for fifty years and have reached the point where I can levitate
completely across this great river at will." To which the Buddha replied, "I am sorry you
have wasted so many years when the ferryman over there would take you across in his
boat for a single coin."
P.S.
Welcome to the forum! :)
Jak
12th August 2006, 09:13 PM

Good response. The question is what are you really looking to accomplish? From my
research I am under the impression that there are many paths. I remember being with
Sifu Wong and speaking of Iron Fist. It's okay to train for this - certainly if one should
be a tight situation, this skill could come in handy. However as Sifu Wong said there is a
tradeoff in that playing the piano may prove to be difficult. Think about it - how is this
going to benefit you and others? Exactly as the story about the Buddha - like, wow you
can levitate but at what cost? Certainly we all would like to be able to levitate or have
certain powers - but realisticly of what use are they in todays world.
Sifu Wong struck me as a down to earth guy. Yes, he is a master and could more than
likely kill me instantly (I think I aggravated him once, yet his wisdom and compassion
at my stupidity overlooked this) but in any event we spoke of other masters and in
reading Sifu's books he mentions other masters in fellow comradeship - which shows
wisdom. He has mentioned great masters like Yan Xin and Wang Liping.
Anyway, I am not here to defend Sifu Wong in that there is no defense necessary and
the choices you make (Konoha) are yours only. I wish you the best in your decisions.
For a man who is at an early age (Tapio) the post was excellent in the summation of
what is important in life. Family, friends...yes health is important but just remember
balance. I too have searched and realize the training that is necessary but at what cost?
I had dinner with Bruce Kumar Frantzis in Berkely CA. It was just the two of us and I
felt it was a good time to ask some questions that actually I thought twice about (he
must get hammered with the same questions) - I said "Is a person able to project
his/her qi at another person?" His response was "It's bullshit" not possible. Bruce is a
straight talker. He is fluent in mandarin...etc -look up his accomplishments sometime impressive <energyarts.com> his intention is to break the mystery of the arts which
are primarily an Asian foundation. In particular the Taoist end of things.
Mind you - the ability to use empty force on people WHO ARE NOT AWARE may not be
possible as Bruce said. It has been said that there are students who are so in-tuned to
their techers that they are moved by the qi. Then again - as is the case with Yan Xi who
has healed and literaly moved hundreds of people with his chi or in fact cosmic qi however, this is where virtue comes into play - does one have the ability to move or
inflict pain on another person without their knowledge or would they and for what
reason?
I also appreciate Jim's information and have contacted him via a private post. I am
awaiting a response to some questions I have asked him. Seems like a nice guy - who
is he though and why does he what seems to be out of the blue, decide to post on this
site? What is his intentions? I have spoken to Micheal Winn about the tape of Pak John's
setting the paper on fire (I have this on file at home) and Micheal basicly said it is BS.
He said that he has personally seen this "trick" done in Zhonghua (China) and that the
chemicals do this are common. I can personally rip phone books in half - sure I can
make a few bucks in a bar (as I am not built like some of these pro-wrestlers) and bet
that I can do it - however - it's really a technique that is involved. I had to do this in
one of my testings - my other Sifu is the son of the founder of Tae Kwon Do. The
chinese arts are the superior (in my opinion) but keeping an open mind is good also. I
personally am very impressed with the gong fu of Sifu Wong and I personally went to
Malaysia for the women (just kidding) to learn Qi gong from Sifu Wong.
I am, as I said, somewhat perplexed as to the sudden appearance and intention of Jim
with these posts. He has mentioned that Kostas was thrown out and my source says
that this is true. In any event - why all this information? It could be that this particular
discussion concerns Mo Pai, I know that I was looking for some feedback about this. I
think there are other post topics that deal with other subjects. So, it could be that Jim
came across this and was kind enough to inform us of the situation and for that we are
grateful.
Konoha, you need to be careful once entering into certain areas - there have been
those that have lost their minds literally when dealing with spirits and having to delve
deep into the mind.
Again - I don't think Jim is saying the wrong thing but, who is Jim? What is his
credentials? Why would he go to a site and seek students or be willing to teach
students? 72 levels? Jim stated something like 15 or so years to get to the 3/4 level so how does one get to the 8th level nevermind the 40th level.
Finally with Mo Pai - what is the goal? What is the purpose? Does one seek the Tao or
enlightenment? I was told a incredible story in Malaysia and will repeat it only because I
was never told to NOT speak of it - there was a master who trained for fifty years - his
accomplishment was that he could scale vertical walls with just his hands and feet! Sort
of like spiderman only spidey used webbing. The point again is - ok...this is
unbeleivable but how is this going to benefit this master?
Jak
Antonius
12th August 2006, 09:49 PM
How does Wong Sifu move clouds without ever aiming to develop yin energy, or
combine yin and yang at the perinium and control the thunderbolt, etc? He doesn't
move clouds; he disperses them.
Has anyone had the honour to witness Wong Sifu dispersing clouds? If so, then can you
please elaborate on your experience. If you are relunctant to do so, I understand. I
have not seen Sifu do it, but I have seen one of his disciples do it. And yes, I'm
reluctant to talk about it because words always fail. Furthemore, talking about such
things always seems to attract the wrong kind of attention -- attention that I personally
would rather do without.
Is a person able to project his/her qi at another person?" His response was "It's
bullshit" not possible Just because Sifu Frantzis cannot do it does not mean it's not
possible. I've met and trained with Sifu Frantzis, and he is a powerful man, but I am
not surprised at his attitude. I have never seen empty force demonstrated, but I have
seen more than enough to steer clear of statements like "it's not possible."
Konoha1401
Dear Tapio and Jak,
12th August 2006, 11:40 PM
We wouldn't do such thing, unless your goals were of evil nature. But are you sure
what, exactly, your goals really are? I don't believe being (extremely) healthy is what
you truly seek.
My goals are certainly are not of evil nature. Why would I want to practise nei kung for
destruction? I can only think of a few reasons in why one would do this. For
power/glory to satisfy ego. For avenging someone (get to the present times). That's
just pitiful. Ever heard the laws of karma? I remember there was a master saying that
goodness will always triumph over evil. I believe him. I believe that you will eventually
suffer for your wrongdoings. I am striving to become a good Catholic, practise correctly
the Ten Commandments, pray earnestly, alongside with nei kung meditation so that I
can truly see God (yes, I consider this ability a supernatural phenomena). I do not want
to have one single tad of bad karma within me. Yes, seeing God is another goal.
I have more goals to describe, but I cannot set foot on at least one of them if I do not
first aim to become a good student. Right? Right now, I need to solely concentrate to
be a devoted student of Mo-pai chi kung/nei kung, as well as a good Catholic and
nothing else. Later, when the time is right (and only if), I can then begin to
consider(one at a time) my objectives, goals and higher goals, other spiritual systems,
etc. Just to let you all know, initially, I was reluctant to post my aims.
I want to mention, that I do not aim for Enlightment. Actually, far from it. I am
certainly not ready for this. First thing is first.
I am very sorry if I did not fully responded to you guys. I know you are only trying to
help, and I appreciate the effort, but I can handle this on my own.
Dear Jim,
this is my e-mail again: [email protected]
With peace, :)
- Konoha
Konoha1401
13th August 2006, 12:15 AM

If my posts are in any way disrespectful to Wong Sifu, anyone who felt I insulted thier
master, I sincerely, to the bottom of my heart, apologize. I too, wish to one day learn
Shaolin Kung Fu from Wong Sifu.
God bless.
- Konoha
Jak
13th August 2006, 01:34 AM

Just because Sifu Frantzis cannot do it does not mean it's not possible. I've met and
trained with Sifu Frantzis, and he is a powerful man, but I am not surprised at his
attitude. I have never seen empty force demonstrated, but I have seen more than
enough to steer clear of statements like "it's not possible."[/QUOTE]
I did not state that empty force was not possible. Here is what I said "Mind you - the ability to use empty force on people WHO ARE NOT AWARE may not be
possible as Bruce said. It has been said that there are students who are so in-tuned to
their techers that they are moved by the qi. Then again - as is the case with Yan Xi who
has healed and literaly moved hundreds of people with his chi or in fact cosmic qi however, this is where virtue comes into play - does one have the ability to move or
inflict pain on another person without their knowledge or would they and for what
reason?"
Please read carefully what I stated. Sifu Frantzis is telling me personally his opinion. I
am sure he has enough "standing" to make a statement like that. Also note that I said "people WHO ARE NOT AWARE" so as an example I have the ability to project my chi for what purpose? If I am a Qi gong master who has the power to heal - great! but
what if I don't care for my neighbor? Can I use "empty force" to harm this person? So
maybe there are folks out there who get knocked over and can't figure it out?
I can appreciate your stating that you have never seen this and your defense to
"anything is possible" mentality. Mind you, if you have seen clouds disbursed this would
be a projection of chi - so - how do you define "empty force"?
Stay well,
Jak
Antonius
Dear Jak,
13th August 2006, 01:54 AM
I did read your post carefully, and I even quoted it. I think your post was unclear, not
my reading of it. However, it's good that you clarified Sifu Frantzis' opinion.
Personally, I don't really care how much standing a master has. I base my opinions on
direct experience. I've met plenty of masters with "standing" who say that chi and
internal force are not real, and I know from direct experience that they are wrong. So if
a master tells me that something is not possible, even if he is a famous master, I take it
with a grain of salt.
I have written many times about empty force on this forum. My definition of it is
simple: the ability to injure or strike someone without touching them. The key is that it
must work on anyone, not just students. In my opinion, this skill is certainly within the
realm of possibility, but few masters today have it, and even fewer are willing to talk
about it.
Dispersing clouds is obviously due to chi transmission, but that's nothing special for
Shaolin Wahnam. That level of chi won't injure someone. I can transmit energy without
contact, and several of my students have felt it. But the amount of energy required to
injure a person is completely different. It's like comparing a kitchen faucet to a roaring
waterfall. Same idea. Big difference.
Dispersingly,
Jak
13th August 2006, 02:04 AM
Anthony:
Thanks for the response. I am in Seatte and your on the east coast 10pm your time so again thanks for the reply and try to stay cool! My mom lives there and I don't miss
the humidity.
Jak
Konoha1401
Dear 3rdLevelMopai(Jim),
13th August 2006, 06:06 AM
Some of your senses really heighten, but everyone is different and other things will
happen to you than what has happened to me. Pak John would always say when I tell
him what happened to me..."Aw yesss." It seems he would remember something
similar but would kept it to himself. I'll be more specific in email because of the
controversial nature
I did not quite understand what this paragraph meant. Could you please elaborate?
Thanks.
- Konoha
Zhang Wuji
14th August 2006, 02:18 AM

If my posts are in any way disrespectful to Wong Sifu, anyone who felt I insulted thier
master, I sincerely, to the bottom of my heart, apologize. I too, wish to one day learn
Shaolin Kung Fu from Wong Sifu.
God bless.
- Konoha
Dear Konoha
Thanks for the apology.

I will be honest - I initially found your attitude somewhat ungrateful. Because of our
Sifu's generosity, masters of other systems and their students are free to post here,
and make their system or style known publicly. Had it not been for this forum, would
Jim have posted here, and would you have had the opportunity to ask those questions?
I did not get the impression that you insulted anyone of us, though one or two of your
posts were obvious snubs. I don't want to quote them here in case they are taken out
of context, but if you re-read your posts in this short thread, you will know what I
mean. Antonius and Tapio were only giving you advice from their own experience from
the goodness of their hearts. We know that our training brings us good health (at the
very least), and since that was what you said you wanted, they suggested you learn
from Shaolin Wahnam without putting down the Mo Pai in any way. Comments like
"thanks but no thanks" ("but I can handle this on my own") are not very becoming,
aren't they? Be that as it may, you have apologised and that is that. I just thought you
should know about how you were writing, in case you ever wish to become a Shaolin
Wahnam student.
Antonius mentioned that it is easier to get tuition from Sifu. That does not mean that
you will get it, even if you asked or begged. If Master John can turn away aspiring
students, so can any master of a high-level art if the student is undeserving.
Konoha1401
14th August 2006, 03:49 AM
Dear Zhang Wuji,

Had it not been for this forum, would Jim have posted here, and would you have had
the opportunity to ask those questions?
I am now awakened to how extremely lucky the opportunity to ask my questions. The
answer to your question - no, I would not have had this opportunity if it wasn't for
Wong Sifu's forum. I am now very grateful for Wong Sifu to be genourous enough to
allow my questions. I am sorry if I have come about as a snub. Please forgive me. I will
strive to do what I can to respond to all of Shaolin Wahnam students/instructors posts.
The thing is, I am a little slow. I don't have your level of intelligence. I can only apply
hard work. Forgive me of my stupidity. God, I'm making a fool of myself.
Antonius and Tapio were only giving you advice from their own experience from the
goodness of their hearts.
I am partially aware of Antonius advice. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but is this
what he is saying: In my experience Shaolin Cosmos chi kung is the best for health, I
give you (Konoha) a rare opportunity to learn and practise this. The thing is, I have
already learnt Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung, and has and continue to practise Sifu Wong's
chi kung everyday till death. I know that from direct experience Shaolin Cosmos Chi
Kung is the best. But, I want to practise something different while continue my
everyday practise of Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung. (I will need to change my "Has Learnt
from Sifu Wong" to yes. Pity there isn't a maybe option. I want to remain secretive.) I
am sorry to elder brothers Antonius, Tapio, Jak for ignoring their advice.
I am sorry to Sifu, if Sifu felt I have betrayed him. I am really am. He has already done
so much for me (clearing blockages, temporary happiness, generosity of sharing
information on Chinese arts).
I am also sorry to call him Wong Sifu in place of Sifu. Right now as I am typing, tears
are beginning drool in my eyes. I have broken the Ten Shaolin Laws. Please arrange
some sort of punishment for me. It's just that, I want to achieve my goals, no matter
what the cost.
My main goal is achieving the art of qinggong (including the high level endurance arts) .
Why? Think about it. Don't you feel sad that many chinese "supernormal" arts are
degrading, and later become extinct from the face of the Earth. I am determine even if
it cost me my life/reputation to restore the art of qinggong. This as well as seeing God
will make me truly happy. I am not asking for fame or fortune by attaining this art. I
only need to restore the art. I feel sad, that Sifu said that his Sifu used to witness the
art of qinggong, and have no evidence to prove to those annoying disrespectful
sceptics. After everything he has done for me, I do what I can to help Sifu, even if it
cost me my life. (Please tell me when to not use the word Sifu instead of Sifu Wong, I
feel that I am not deserving)
I guess my goal of maintaining radiant health till death is already underway with my
consistent practise of Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung. One of my secondary goals, is to see
and talk to God. Chang Pak has talked to God. I want to do the same via Mo-Pai nei
kung.
About my family and friends. Yes I spend a lot of time with my family (sisters mum and
dad). I am making friends at work, and enjoy being a conservationist. But these are
only past times. It only feel temporary happiness. I'm still depressed at the degradation
and extinction of Chinese arts.
"I just thought you should know about how you were writing,"
I have realise this. I shall try my best to respond to my Shaolin Wahnam brothers and
sisters, even if they consider me not a brother. I try to listen to everything and type
polite/nice sentences/responses.
Thank you for your post Zhang Wuji,
I'm in shame.
- Konoha1401
Konoha1401
14th August 2006, 04:36 AM
Dear Zhang Wuji (or elder brother Zhang Wuji, if you still consider me a brother)
[
Comments like "thanks but no thanks" ("but I can handle this on my own") are not very
becoming, aren't they? Be that as it may, you have apologised and that is that
Answer: No they are not. In the future I will try to best of my ability to be simple, direct
and effective. I am sorry for typing that sort of comment.
Antonius mentioned that it is easier to get tuition from Sifu. That does not mean that
you will get it, even if you asked or begged. If Master John can turn away aspiring
students, so can any master of a high-level art if the student is undeserving.[/
I don't know what to say. What can I do? I've mention that I am willing to sacrifice my
life to help Sifu, even if I am an ex-student.
:(
- Konoha
thunderindo
To Jim,
14th August 2006, 05:19 AM
Your first posts really upset all Mo Pai members.

Quite a lot of MoPai members surf the net so we are quite aware of the world think of
us.
Some dont believe and think of us as a hoax which we can still bear due to their
ignorance.
But your posts are difference, they were written by a Sifus disciple who are supposed
to understand him, yet the posts themselves badmouthing and dishonoring Sifu many
times.
As bad as you might think about Kosta and Andreas, I never read them wrote bad
things about Sifu.
Among the many Sifus western disciple, you are the only one that done this to him.
You might have hatred and resentment in your heart because you cant train further.
But you know yourself that it is not up to Sifu to continue teaching you.
You know the reason yourself, each lineage has its own rule set up by their ancestors,
and all the lineage holders are strictly expected to obey them.
Sifu had tried to teach you and bore the risk of breaking the rule, but finally he has no
choice but to uphold the rule.
For this thing only you should be grateful to him regardless what level you can train up
to, but what you have done really disappoint him.
Most people (Chinese or non-Chinese) will already be grateful to be accepted as
student, irrespective of how far he can go in the training. You must remember that you
are not the only western disciple, there are Kosta, Andreas and still many more, but
they can understand the situation though it is also hard for them at the same time.
It is never Sifus intention to accept a student and then just walk away as you said,
this clearly show that you only see this from your own point of view your own benefit
- you clearly missed Sifus good intention and all the trouble he had to undergone to
accept you and train you untill you can reach your current level.
Mind you that you are the one indebted to Sifu, not the other way around. During your
10+ years of your training Sifu never charge you anything, not a single cent. Sifu never
expect you to repay anything, showing your gratitude is already enough for Sifu and
your gratitude ends immediately when Sifu cant teach you further.
All MoPai students have no rights to claim anything from Sifu, you and I are not an
exception.
Your comparison that you never leave your students is not a fair comparison, it is just
to justify yourself, you hadnt done/sacrifice as much as what Sifu had done to us.
Another thing you should know, even among chinese students, higher level training is
reserved only to those deemed worthy. With your attitude I really doubt you can meet
the criteria even if you are allowed to go further.
To forum moderator and all readers, it is not my intention to create a mess in this
forum, but since Jim wrote false thing about Sifu Chang, his disciples and other things,
I have to make it straight.
Jim were implying that Sifus intention in letting Blair and Kosta making documentary
and book is to get people intention and that Sifu was unhappy because he was not the
center of the book/documentary. This is utterly nonsense. Sifu was never aware that
the documentary was to be aired on TV, he thought it only for Blair private
documentation (even for that private purpose Sifu was not immediately aggreeing to be
documented). Sifu only knew that the documentation being aired after a friend of his
son told his son about this.
Money and fame are never Sifus goal then and now (though it will not be hard for him
to get them should he choose so given his skill and power).
Kosta was not seen as unworthy because he hadnt made Sifu the centerpiece of the
book.
He also accused Kosta lead people think that he is still Sifus disciple to make money
out of the book. I dont know were he got this information from, as far as I know, Kosta
never show up again in the net after his official forum (wenwukuan) closed. At the time
the book was launched he is still a Mo Pai member.
I am forced to believed that Jim hatred & frustation led him to wrote all of this about
Sifu.
Just for information, other western disciples are fine and many are still in contact with
Sifu from time to time.
I have also known Andreas personally and have no problem with him untill now.
Jim said that Sifu is forced to retire from Mo Pai, in fact he is still the Mo Pai leader, only
he is not involved in the operation as much as before.
Jim said Sifu was problematic and changed his stories. Jim, you have to understand
there are 2 things about this, one being language barrier which all western disciples
faced and the other being you cant expect Sifu to remember all detail of an event.
Doing things we deemed extraordinary is as casual as strolling in a park for Sifu since
he has done it so many so times so many years, how can you expect him to remember
all the detail perfectly. I have been around Sifu just for 5 years yet have seen so many
things that if you asked me, I can only tell you the global part of the story. It is only
humane to do that.
Jim, now about disclosing level one and two training method, have you had Sifus
permission to do this? Even if you are ex-student you dont have the right to do so, you
still have to ask Sifu permission to do this. Mo Pai teaching is not to be disclosed to
public, there are dangers associated with training it unsupervised.
You are telling them lies if you said it is not so.
Even when supervised, some students unconsciously make small deviation from the
method which lead to internal injuries.
During my apprenticeship I have seen enough students injured due to wrong training,
near death incident is not unheard of, and I personally know every person that
experienced this.
Too all people trying to get training method from Jim, I am not trying to scare you, the
danger is very real. Be very careful.
I dont have personal problem with you, Jim, I never met you, just heard of him from
Sifu and all I heard from Sifu are only good things.
I wrote this post because I cant stand being silent after all you had wrote.
Seeing someone we dearly loved and honored being falsely accussed is not something
we can be silent for.
I hope this post can clear all the mis-information that you wrote to all forum readers.
On Behalf of All Mo Pai Members Grieved by the posts.
@ Jim,
If you want to continue debating, do so via privately PM, I dont like taking up MoPai
internal matter in public forum. Dont disgrace MoPai further with your action.
Konoha1401
Dear thunderino,
14th August 2006, 06:02 AM
A big welcome to the Shaolin Wahnam forum from me.

Thank you for clearing puzzling facts.
Is it true that Jim was the most dedicated student of John Pak?
:)
- Konoha
Tapio Raevaara
14th August 2006, 07:37 AM

Lots of great posts, here. But before I add anything to the ongoing discussion, please
let me clear a few misunderstandings - it appears I've presented myself in an unclear
manner.
For a man who is at an early age (Tapio) the post was excellent in the summation of
what is important in life.
I thank you for your compliment, although it was never my intention to say what's
important in life, and after re-reading my own post, I still don't think I did. I only
wanted to raise some questions for self-reflection.

My goals are certainly are not of evil nature. Why would I want to practise nei kung for
destruction?
Again, it was never my intention to imply this. I know your goals are good, not evil. If
you got the impression that I'm accusing you of something, I sincerely apologize!
Antonius and Tapio were only giving you advice from their own experience from the
goodness of their hearts. We know that our training brings us good health (at the very
least), and since that was what you said you wanted, they suggested you learn from
Shaolin Wahnam without putting down the Mo Pai in any way.
A small correction here: I did not suggest this, alhough I'd have gladly done it, if I had
been asked. Absolutely no harm done, Wuji Sihing, just wanted to be clear. :)
About my family and friends. Yes I spend a lot of time with my family (sisters mum and
dad). I am making friends at work, and enjoy being a conservationist. But these are
only past times. It only feel temporary happiness. I'm still depressed at the degradation
and extinction of Chinese arts.
Happiness is a skill found within. If a person is happy or unhappy just depeding on
external circumstances, it's like being adrift on the sea.
You say you're only able to find temporary happiness in your family, friend and work,
because of the depressing state of the Chinese arts. Do you think that will change if you
manage to improve the status quo? I don't think so. By definition, happiness brought by
external circumstances is circumstantial - thus, temporary. You would still be a slave to
the circumstances.
Your goal of dedicating your life to restore the glory of the Chinese arts is truly
admirable - you should be happy doing it, not depressed! :)
Best Wishes,
Tapio
HugoDarien
14th August 2006, 09:15 AM
I felt it is important for people to know the reality of this aspect of Mo Pai and John.
Yes is really important!
Thank you Jim for give us more light - and Welcome to the forum!:)
Regards
Hugo
:)
HugoDarien
14th August 2006, 09:20 AM

Not too long from now Pak John will be moving to Bali for "the rest of his life" in
reclusive training, only his wife will be with him. He was going to take two of his
students before all this happened, but now he will train alone, until he dies...a sad fate
for us..... Jim
I understand Jim what you feel. I wonder if there going to be a sussesor after Master
Pak John die?
Thanks
Antonius
14th August 2006, 02:02 PM
Dear thunderindo,
Welcome to the forum. And thank you for sharing. There are always at least two sides
to the story, and it's good to hear another perspective.
Personally, I hope that the discussion continues in public. I understand that Mo Pai is
secretive, and we respect. However, this discussion has already been made quite public
on our forum, and I feel that it is important to continue that discussion in public.
I am curious to hear Jim's response.
Best to all,
raja jin
16th August 2006, 02:35 AM

Good luck to all those students studying mo-pai. dont let negative comments & people
stop you from attaining your goals.
Rahmid
16th August 2006, 05:12 AM
Hello,
I wish to pursue nei kung and was wondering if anyone could instruct me in the first
couple levels? If you could meet me personally that would be great! I live in the
Cleveland, Ohio area. Here's my emial [email protected]
And to Jim, I have yet to decide which side to believe. But I was wondering, level 3
students can deflect attacks correct? Like the pellet gun. Are you using your yin or yang
energy?
Thanks
Rahmid
Konoha1401
Dear Rahmid,
16th August 2006, 05:20 AM
Are you using your yin or yang energy?

The answer to this question is in the book "The Magus of Java".
- Konoha
Rahmid
16th August 2006, 05:27 AM

Yes and no, In the Magus of Java Kosta explains that John filled him with Yin energy
then shot the pellet. But if you are lvl three do you have such mastery over yin? Or is it
Yang doing the work? And if it was John doing the Yin manipulation wouldn't he be able
to block it WAY better than Jim(but Jim said that he could take it when pumped more
and said john explained it was because of Kosta being weaker, but wasn't it John doing
the work?)
Rahmid
Konoha1401
16th August 2006, 05:43 AM

Hmm. Well I don't know which side to believe, Kosta or Jim?
I'm also clueless in whether or not John Pak actually transmitted yin chi from a distance
to Jim before the attempt to stop the bullet.
(Awaiting for the answer to Rahmid's questions.)
Rahmid
16th August 2006, 05:59 AM
Well, this is what Jim has said:

He also mentioned that his pellet didn't get smashed when he was shot, it was because
low level students don't get the rifle pumped up as much as when a higher student
performs. My pellets were literally smashed. I had to laugh at his concepts why his
wasn't. I guess he likes to over-intellectualize eveything...didn't you get that impression
from his book?
Also, Pak John didn't have to hold me or touch me when I was shot, at the third level
your Dan Tien is full, whereas as level two it isn't.
He says he block the impact from the pellet because his dantien is full. That would
mean he used yang to stop it, becuase your dantien stores yang, correct? And if John
used Yin on Kosta the effects would be radically different, no? Yin and Yang are
opposites, lol
I'm more on the side of Kosta as of now. Jim implies that kosta was a bad student and
John knew it. But if he knew it, then why didn't he just turn him away like he did to
hundreds, possibly thousands! And Kostas said i his books John approved of the books.
Also Kosta never said Lvl three training can kill.
But ya never know, but if Jim doesn't reply soon, i'm gonna assume he was just one of
those downers that just like to get people stired up and then watch the aftermath. It's
happened in other forums i watch more than once!
Rahmid
unseen
16th August 2006, 08:34 AM

Hi Jim,You are spot on with your description of certain people as far as i am concerned
u said everything as it was.Can we talk
Rahmid
16th August 2006, 05:07 PM
Hello again,
I'm confused again:
"All of them(lvl three students) failed when they were supposed to push a chop stick
threw a piece of board."
In the book, Kosta was told the story about how John went to california because he was
told of a master there. They met and the master pounded a nail into a table using his
hand. Then John simply pushed a chapstick through the table. John asked Kosta why he
was able to do this and he wasn't. Kosta said it was becuase John combine yin and
yang, when the california master only used yang. And John said "right-o!" figuritivly of
course, : p . So wouldn't you have to be lvl 4(at least) to do such a feet?
I dont mean any disrespect of any sort, just your saying many things that conflict with
what both books have said and i'm confused. And the books make perfect sence in my
head. Thats all really, I really hope to learn from you if your willing to teach!
Your the closest person to nei kung that i've met, and I severly wish to learn.
Rahmid
Antonius
17th August 2006, 01:14 PM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know what "Mo Pai" means? Or does anyone have the
Chinese characters? Or both? :)
Rahmid
17th August 2006, 03:16 PM
I may be wrong so dont be afraid to correct me, but I think it's just named after the
founder, Mo Tzu(which means Mr. Tattoo, they think he was a prisoner at some point
because of the tattoo's he had and the name change).
Rahmid
Antonius
17th August 2006, 03:50 PM
That's what I originally assumed, but it's confusing because I'm not clear whether "Mo
Pai" is Mandarin, or Cantonese. If it's Cantonese, then "Mo Tzu" would be "Mak Tzi",
which would make it "Mak Pai." Anyone have the chinese characters?
Rahmid
17th August 2006, 04:23 PM
sorry this isn't a real post, just my comp or somthing is freaking out and saying some
one is posting every 5 mins, I have like 10 emails for ONE post!
Hope this fixes it
Rahmid
Konoha1401
Dear Jim and/or Thunderindo,
17th August 2006, 10:22 PM
Does the Mo-Pai nei kung system involves closing a practitioner's sexual gate to
develop the thunder power? What I mean is, does it involve him to draw in all their
genitals (Penis, perinium, testicles) into his body?
Does the system require one to drinks his/her own urine? (Gross. How disgusting.)
Does the system involves the circulation and mixing of vapours with saliva through five
organs, with tongue, through gall bladder, etc. then later ignite the true fire in the lower
furnace?
- Konoha
Konoha1401
17th August 2006, 10:29 PM

I heard that the mo-pai system involves chi kung exercises such as: Reverse breathing,
tortoise breathing, micro-cosmic orbit breathing, macro-cosmic orbit breathing. Is this
true?
Zhang Wuji
18th August 2006, 01:39 AM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know what "Mo Pai" means? Or does anyone have the
Chinese characters? Or both? :)
Hi Antonius
Were you expecting me to post in reply?:)
These are the Chinese characters, and Mopai is spelt in the modern Hanyu Pinyin
"Men Pai" means school or sect, so Mo Pai is most likely an abbreviation for
(the school of Mozi)
I have always found Mr Kosta's use of Chinese terms very confusing. He uses Mandarin
and Chinese dialects interchangeably and even Japanese to boot. "Jodo" is obviously
Japanese but he asserts it is a Chinese word.
What Rahmid said about the Mopai came from the books. What Mr Kosta writes is fairly
close to the known facts but it is quite obvious he was using secondary translated
sources. It was always been my bugbear -people writing authoritatively should be using
personal experience or authentic sources (which could be oral tradition). I had spent
hours in bookshops and libraries looking for writings by and about Mozi and they were
pitifully scarce. He was even omitted from my compulsory module in Chinese
philosophers. When I have time, i will post a typical passage from his writings.
cnholmes
18th August 2006, 12:13 PM
people writing authoritatively should be using personal experience or authentic sources
(which could be oral tradition).
Zhang Wuji,
Very well said - I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Here is my posting on this from a while ago.
http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4914#post4914
It is important to have good sources of reference, IMO the best source is direct
experience; after that is a 'primary' source, like the murals Sifu mentions here, which
are documented evidence of someones direct experience; lastly is secondary sources which is someone saying what they think is meant by the evidence in a set of primary
sources. Very bad is where academics all refer to each others work with no 'real'
evidence behind any of it. Also bad is hiding behind a title when your argument
crumbles.
All these are, however, fundamentally and irretrievably flawed. Mainly because of that
same problem "how do you explain the taste of mango to someone whos never tried
it?". No two people will have the same direct experience, and if you don't really
understand whats going on you miss a lot.
Then, if you create a primary source by describing your experience, your words might
not convey the true essence and the reader will read it with pre-conceived ideas which
get in the way.
From this you can see that secondary sources are always a case of 'chinese whispers',
where the message is changed ever so slightly at each stage.
Finally, on all 3 counts its important to remember two things about the person relating
the story.
1. Who they're telling their story to.
2. Why they're telling it.

Both of those can affect the content and tone of the information.
And of course, as Plum Blossom says, you have to have a focussed argument to tie it all
up.
Its a flaw in western academia that they are selective in their evidence. It comes from
having to make a bold statement at the beginning of your study, then finding evidence
to prove it. No one wants to write in their thesis "OK, I'm wrong, lets go back to the
beginning and start again".
I'd just like to add that when dealing with interpretations of secondary sources,
linguistic and cultural divides can create many errors and greatly magnify others. This is
very often pointed out by Sifu in dealing with Chinese Classics.
Regards,
Chris.
zenbone
18th August 2006, 02:42 PM
Jodo is usually spelled 'jodoh' in Bahasa Indonesia, the Indonesian language. It is a
Javanese term (sp. Jodho). While it relates to 'fate' or 'the will of heaven,' it is almost
exclusively used with reference to things that are a match or have been brought
together. A man and a woman who are meant for each other have 'jodoh.' If a keris
likes me and indicates it wants to serve me, then that is also jodoh. It is assumed
automatically that this was brought about by heaven or God (or, in Bali, by the Gods).
Meeting sifu Djiang would be 'kehendak Tuhan' - the will of God. Having a good
teacher/student relationship would be an indication of jodoh.
Hope that helps.
Lei
29th August 2006, 12:46 AM
Hi to all the members

Djiang Sifu was in Greece in 2002. So he wasn't rejected Kostas in 2000. He never
rejected him. On the contrary, Sifu was enjoying his visit in Greece and made a short
but very amazing demonstration of electrogenesis along with some therapies
There are at least two students of Kostas that can hit from a distance the videotapes
boxes with the yin "help" from Sifu and they are near the end of level 2a (I thing that
they have allready complete the level in a way)
It is a very sad situation, all these things about who is good and who isn't, who is more
stronger than the other, who is the student that Sifu love or hate etc, etc.
We, as humans allways believe that the knowledge must be given to us, like we own it.
We never really appreciate what it is given to us from Above. We are arrogant, selfish
and all the time we desire more and more, like we are immortals.
Some people in this life had the privillege to be in the Mo Pai or in other Pai's as well.
This is more than enough. God wanted to be that way for us, so everyone has to accept
it. If it was Sifu's decision, or some spirit's, it doesn't really mater.
Because in reality, if the student has a sincere hart, he will find his Way one way or
another, either in Mopai, or in other Pai etc.
Sorry for my bad English
God (or whatever you believe) bless you all
Antonius
Yasoo, Lei. Welcome to the forum. :)
29th August 2006, 01:14 PM
Because in reality, if the student has a sincere hart, he will find his Way one way or
another, either in Mopai, or in other Pai etc. I couldn't agree more. :)
HugoDarien
29th August 2006, 03:19 PM
Hello!
Yasoo, Lei. Welcome to the forum. :)
I couldn't agree more. :)
Welcome to the forum from me too, Yasoo, Lei!
And I couldn't agree more too!
Now one question!
Do The teachings from the Magnus of Java have some connection whit the Quanshen
school or the Mao-shan tradition of great purity:confused:
I mean who is the founder is there any lineage that we can see?
Thanks!
Good-bye!
andyseattle
29th August 2006, 11:17 PM
Hi, I am a bit confused. I am not affiliated with the Mo Pai in any way but I have been
trying to follow the Internet discussions for a few years.
I have had email conversation with various people, but it is still confusing what's going
on, from various conversations I've been able to piece together, basically something
happened with 'Raja Jinn', and some Australian students, so 'Pak John' decided not to
teach any Westerners anymore. (Some people say they were kicked out, some say not
kicked out just not taught anymore), who knows.
Anyway, none of that is any of my business, anyway. Except I guess the 'Mo Pai' is now
closed to non-Chinese. Which seems a bit silly, because I've met bad Chinese just as
bad Westerners. But, whatever.
But I've been wondering if any of you know anything about the Mo Pai martial arts
forms. Do you think they are at all related to Baguazhang? The art is called 'Pai Le
Chuan', what is the 8 for? Is the 8 for like the 8 different 'energies' in taiji (peng ji lu an
etc.) or is it like 8 as in gua (are the forms done in a circle at all?)
Thanks in advance!
Luo Lang
30th August 2006, 01:19 AM
Welcome to the forum Lei,

I would like to thank you for your nice contribution.
As Anthony Siheng wrote, I also could not agree more.
One thing I would like to ask you, if it's allowed to share, is:
I have the impresssion that Mo Pai is very Taoistic influenced? Would you agree?
Respectfully,
Roland
Lei
geia kai se sena Anthony:)
30th August 2006, 01:35 PM
HugoDarien, Luo Lang, Antonius thanks a lot.

Yes, Mopai has similarities with Daoist neidan. But it is not an "orthodox" daoist school
like Quanzhen, Maoshan, etc. But in my opinion is a lot Daoist oriented comparing with
other Ways of cultivation.
It is one of the main lines of Motzu teachings, so it is just a Mohist school having a
martial art too.
It is a closed door school, so the lineage remains "inside" the family.
And, no, paleichuan is not similar to baguazhang.
That's all I could say for the matter.
Thank you again for the warm wellcome
Take care
andyseattle
30th August 2006, 05:21 PM
Thank you, Lei.

HugoDarien
Good Day!
31st August 2006, 09:13 AM
When you said that Mopai has similarities with Daoist neidan!
It reminds me a comment of a book, he said:
Having learned all the practices (except kan & li) from Master Chia, I have no difficulty
following David's brief clear instructions. So maybe if you have read this book or some
student of Mopai read the book you feel some similarity!
http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Gong-Practical/dp/0595174973/sr=11/qid=1157015194/ref=sr_1_1/104-4558014-9119127?ie=UTF8&s=books
Can you please explain little more what this names means?:
Mopai
Motzu
Mohist
paleichua
May god Bless you friend Lei.
Good-bye!
Lei
Dear HugoDarien:)
31st August 2006, 11:56 PM
No, I am not familiar with this book but I will try to read it in the future.
Mopai - Mo comes from Mo Tzu and Pai means method/family etc
Motzu - The name of the mystic/sage where Mo Pai comes from
Mohist - Someone who follows the MoTzu's teachings
paleichuan - eight thunder fist. The gong fu of Mo Pai
I believe that I said everything I could say about Mo Pai.
Thank you
God bless you
andyseattle
1st September 2006, 12:08 AM

Don't you think this is so frustrating? Like dangling a carrot in front of a horse and then
saying it can never have it.
If Zhang San Feng was really a member of this 'Mo Pai', then possibly taiji came from
'Mo Pai', but we have no way to validate it or anything.
Does the 'Mo Pai' have any splinter lineages or offshoots? Any other teachers out there?
It seems like maybe all the Mo Pai people should just go away and stop teasing if they
don't plan on teaching their martial art anymore.
andyseattle

Actually I have to apologize, I wasn't really thinking. You said you just can't teach
Westerners anymore, right, not everybody.
Konoha1401

There goes another Mo-Pai student. Oh well. Yes, you are right. That kind of attitude
should be fixed. :)
BTW, I think nearly everyone in the world would be a Westerner (culture) by now.
Dear Lei (if you ever return),
I just like to ask, how is Kosta? I would like to wish him and his family all the best.
Good luck and best wishes,
- Konoha
HugoDarien

...No, I am not familiar with this book but I will try to read it in the future.
Mopai - Mo comes from Mo Tzu and Pai means method/family etc
Motzu - The name of the mystic/sage where Mo Pai comes from
Mohist - Someone who follows the MoTzu's teachings
paleichuan - eight thunder fist. The gong fu of Mo Pai
I believe that I said everything I could say about Mo Pai...
Hello :)
Lei
Thanks :)
Well I belive is the best book in English on the subject I have buy it, and going to read
it next week so I write my comments latter!

I found some interested article about the Sage Motzu, see here:
http://www.humanistictexts.org/motzu.htm
I remember too that there are others Immortals that have Martial Art in their training,
some could be special whit the Palm etc!
Yes I belive too that you said all!
May you always remember that you did a very good thing here on the forum and sure
going to do in the future!
Take Care
HugoDarien
A Photo of the White Cloud Temple for you!
Lei
1st September 2006, 12:16 PM
I believe that I said everything I could say about Mo Pai.

dear friends. This is what I wrote, not that I am leaving the forum.
It seems like maybe all the Mo Pai people should just go away and stop teasing if they
don't plan on teaching their martial art anymore
dear andyseattle
Why are you saying this? Jim, wrote some thinks about Kostas and his students and I
wrote the "other part's" answer. I am not here in this forum with the purpose to teach
you or any other person anything. I am not looking for students nor do I advertise
Mopai here in this forum. Others are looking for students and are quite "open" and
generous. Jim seems to be one of those. Not me, so please don't confuse things.
Where from my posts did you get the image of me trying to "tease" anyone about my
art? Please indicate it to me.
I am here just to clear things up. Just that.
But if from my part it seemed else, then I apologize.
dear Konoha1401
Kostas is very good, his family too. He is just too beasy working all the time many
many hours a day. Thank you for asking.
dear HugoDarien
thanks for your words and the photo of cource.
God bless you all
HugoDarien
dear HugoDarien
thanks for your words and the photo of cource.God bless you all
Thanks Lei
:)
andyseattle

dear friends. This is what I wrote, not that I am leaving the forum.
dear andyseattle
Why are you saying this? Jim, wrote some thinks about Kostas and his students and I
wrote the "other part's" answer. I am not here in this forum with the purpose to teach
you or any other person anything. I am not looking for students nor do I advertise
Mopai here in this forum. Others are looking for students and are quite "open" and
generous.
God bless you all
Well obviously Jim should not be teaching according to Thunderindo, it is against the
wishes of his teacher, 'Pak John'. I am not going to go against the wishes of your
teacher.
I am not from the East, so obviously, 'Mo Pai' is closed to me. I don't understand when
you say others are open to teaching. They are not open to teaching Westerners, right?
But I didn't realize that 'Mo Pai' is still open to Easterners, so I'm sorry for my
comment. As I put in the next post, I apologize.
Antonius

I hate to break it to you folks, but the secrecy surrounding Mo Pai is not unusual. In
fact, it is traditional. These days, everyone assumes that all of the secrets are being
taught openly. Either that, or they assume that there never were any secrets. The truth
that many don't realize is that there are secrets. Powerful ones.
Some schools choose to keep their secrets, and that is their prerogative. Other schools
don't have any secrets to keep, although they may say they do. And other schools
choose to share their secrets openly with deserving students. Obviously, Shaolin
Wahnam is one of these.
I cannot criticize Sifu Chang for closing his doors, but I must admit that, when reading
Kostas' books, I was moved by Sifu Chang's desire to spread his art to all races. His
dream was to have one Level Four student from each race of man. To me, this seems
like a noble dream.
My Sigung, Ho Fatt Nam, had a similar dream. He asked Sifu Wong to spread the
Shaolin arts to deserving students worldwide, no matter what race, gender, or religion.
Sifu has worked hard to fulfill that dream, and look how many people have benefitted.
How many people are alive today -- alive physically, mentally, and emotionally -- that
would otherwise be dead if not for Sifu's efforts?

I look forward to a day when more masters choose to share their arts more openly. The
world will be a better place for it.
HugoDarien

I look forward to a day when more masters choose to share their arts more openly. The
world will be a better place for it.
Good Day!
Thanks for the information Sifu Anthony.
I look forward too, that more masters choose to share their arts more openly.
Regards
Hugo
HugoDarien

Dear HugoDarien..No, I am not familiar with this book but I will try to read it in the
future...
In my opinion the book: The Art of Chi Kung by Sifu Wong is a much more better book!
for more information see here:
http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5425
Regards
Hugo
darkrider

hugo, i feel it is rude to quote right out, so ill just say it.
theres a reason that these things are kept at a reasonable(sometimes not) amount,
secret.
the day that everything is shared is the day that the human race alone, knows fully,
each and everyone, that they for sure, are alone.
picture this for a moment if you will; jedi-mopai
this was, in little pieces, brought together to form the original of george lucases jedi,
then, with a few pieces cut out to fit star wars, fully behind the jedi.
although missing lightsabers,(one has been built) they are real.
now, picture this. if you will; sith-?
in short terms, the whole thing of star wars is mixed with truth and untruth.
but for the real, weve seen what the wonderous can bring.
i quote from, star wars, knights of the old republic,
what are the jedi without the force?strip all that away...and you dont have much
what if someone took it upon themselves to learn this, trained in the nei-kung way, and
brought all this to some others who could make a person hurl from the sight of them?
(no jk)
basically, no need for the jedi then.
then what would stop those others from taking out the jedi at their leasure?
already powerful themselves from evil?
have you any fathom of the terrifying?
although not ''jedi'' themselves, the don's of the south know people who could do this,
and have for a very, very long time.
when our domain is no longer plagued by evil, war and lies....only then so god help the
good will, with a limit still, more be revealed.
-much respects, d
Chi Addict
Hi Darkrider,
Personally i enjoyed the Star Wars series very much. Yeah i know...which guy
doesn't..:rolleyes:
Anyways, a lot can be learnt from a 'science fiction' film. Episode 3 was my favourite.
I think the premise of the mythology wasn't just abt good overcoming evil. Although
both are moral definitions, the 2 seemingly opposing ideologies, when taken to the
extreme, becomes the same.
2 sides of the same coin as they say.

I don't think it is possible to totally eliminate evil, as they will always exist so long as
there is a good side. A paradox i know....
Btw Hugo, i agree with you that Master Wong's Chi Kung book is excellent. I borrowed
from a library and got quite a lot out from it. :D
darkrider

okay.....i think i should have said something a little more clearly........brrr..
just because i was mentioning star wars, does not mean i was talking about THAT
directly.
i was talking about how star wars is based on reality, not about how reality is based on
star wars.
reality, ok? R.E.A.L.I.T.Y
:( so please, dont just kill all i just said with how great star wars was. i was talking
about things based on facts, and outcomes. nothing more, okay??
i said, no, j.k!-d.....
seandenty
22nd September 2006, 09:59 PM
Hey Guys,
Interesting discussion. I was a student of Kostas for a few years; interesting experience
that. Real Kung Fu still exists in China, very much like Star Wars... good movie.
Best, Sean
Chi Addict
23rd September 2006, 09:39 AM

I was just using Star Wars as an example Darkrider. But I might have digress a little
yes? :p
I think masters do their best to preserve the secrets for various reasons. Maintaining
superiority, keep it for the deserving, prevent abuse of power,etc.
They have their rights of course. Regardless, I still think it will be a real pity for the rest
of mankind.
But, for the sake of stimulating discussion -- Is it wrong to allow common people to
train for such powers? By that I mean the average decent, physically qualified and
willing person.
While it certainly is right to say bad people will abuse them, good people can also use it
for self-protection and act as a deterrent. It levels the playing field so to speak.
An analogy might be the issue of gun-control laws. If only the military and police are
allowed firearms, what of an oppressive government who could do anything they
please?
The reasoning that it protects people as it prevents criminals from getting it is a fallacy
since criminals dont follow the laws in the first place! They always obtain it illegally.
The reasoning that it protects people as it prevents immoral characters from obtaining
such powers is a fallacy since theyll find other ways to get it (As seen in Lim, the
warlord, in Magus of Java).
What then of the helpless mortals? Why cant the willing and deserving learn to protect
themselves? Can they not take up responsbility for themselves instead of relying on
saviours?
That doesnt mean one cant, or is wrong to keep secrets (even if its traditional). But I
was pondering on the validity of using that particular reasoning.
I think Star Wars ep 3 is great on many fronts (expect the love story) because it covers
this aspect on several levels. The deeper message is both good and evil will always
exist in mankind. Yin-Yang polarity.
seandenty
23rd September 2006, 06:57 PM
It's simply that you have to prove yourself to the Master. They test your character and
resolve; and first you have to actually meet a master.
raja jin
Hey there guys,
there are plenty of great system around (as others have stated previously) but they
just follow different methods and some of the terminology differs. it all depends on
what you are looking for & what your goals are.there are many schools out there which
use what is termed "Yin Energy" very early on in their training. maybe the results effects are not as great, but the skills do come very quickly & you dont have to wait 20
years. training 4 hrs a day,not having sex,etc, the list goes on. remember,Its not what
the master can do or demonstrate for you that matters,but rather,
Will the teacher share the correct & full teachings with you & how long before you can
start using & applying the energy you have built in everyday life for multi purposes. for
example if a person were to reach only level one in the mopai then borrow or build the
equal ammount of yin chi to unite with yang,can you imagine the power !!! theres no
need to go to level 2 or 3 .
Thnx Guys
seandenty
Hi All,
Yes, I agree with Raja Jin here, there are lots of great teachers and good martial arts
systems. However, neikung in my experience is something totally different. The
traditional goal of neikung is enlightenment and liberation. The Daoist concept of
liberation is basically the same as the Buddhist one; however it existed long before
Buddhism entered China. The reason for the various tests and basic secrecy is very
fundamental to this type of practice; the power generated is tremendous and there are
many moral and ethical pitfalls to be wary of. This is true of the Lei Shan Dao (the
thunder and lightning path) which John Dijang represents, as well as the other five
major Daoist lines.
It's the masters obligation to test the student and find out if he or she is really ready.
Since my study with the Mo Pai, I've discovered the existence of several Masters in
China who have achieved the same types of abilities that John Dijang possesses. I even
met two of them. Trust me, most people would walk away when they found out what's
really involved in undertaking these practices; I went though a great deal of sacrifice
and sweat just to be able to meet these masters and I can definitely say these practices
are extremely rare to come by and are not taught openly or to the public. If you've read
through some of my earlier posting in this thread, you might be interested to know that
I found what I was looking for. Perhaps if this post generates some interest, I'll share
some of my experiences in China.
Best, Sean
Luo Lang
Dear Sean,
Your open heart is very much appreciated. Thanks for sharing your interessting
experiences.
you might be interested to know that I found what I was looking for. Perhaps if this post
generates some interest, I'll share some of my experiences in China.
I am very interessted to hear more of your experiences in China, when meeting Masters
of differnt styles:)
shaolin_mike
I maybe getting sidetracked here but I just wanted to share something.
There is a lot of talk in this thread about special powers and wanting to learn different
arts so you will be able to perform these amazing feats. Well from what I have read and
experienced I can tell you this: the human being is capable of great things, amazing
things which seem like miracles to those who do not know about them. These
impressive powers may seem attractive to others but the real truth is that they are
mundane, because they still deal with the material world, as opposed to enlightenment
which is the highest attainment. Also, these powers could easily become a distraction
and therefore a hindrance to the spiritual progress of a practitioner.
There was a great story by Shrii Shrii Anandamurti on this subject. He was a highly
realised yogi and him and his followers had many many incredible abilities so he was
speaking from experience. He would tell everyone not to use their abilities as it only
flatters their ego. He made a comparison to a baby crying while the mother is cooking
dinner. The baby wants his mother but the mother is busy so she gives him a toy to
play with. The intelligent baby knows this is not what he wants, he wants his mother
not the toy. The mother symbolises final enlightenment and the toy symbolises siddhis
or special powers. Anandamurti says we should not be satisfied with the powers but
instead strive for the final goal.
I hope you bear this in mind while you are searching for a master to teach you.
Peace
Shamsher
Bravo Mike, what you wrote is very grounded and sensible.
with respect Sham.
Chi Addict

Yes sean do tell us more about your experiences in China. :)
Piers
Sean, I'd like to hear more too.
piers
shaolin_mike

Bravo Mike, what you wrote is very grounded and sensible.
with respect Sham.
Cheers mate but it only sounded that way because Im paraphrasing a very wise man :)
seandenty
Dear All,
Its great to see a little interest on this thread. I understand that the comments made
were intended to be helpful and I think they represent a valid caution. However, this is
an important topic and since it was brought up, Id like to use this opportunity address
an important point on the powers that come with the practices being discussed. I once
held that same belief, that spiritual power was something bad or a distraction from so
called true spiritual practices.
Weve all heard or read this cautionary in spiritual books; its like a mantra, Warning,
power corrupts! Gee, really? Im going to speak frankly here; most people who use this
type of propaganda are trying to establish their power. Have you ever heard the saying,
those who speak dont know and those who know dont speak? Of course you have.
Do you know what it means? Let me fill you in; those in power, who know, dont have
to say anything, because real power doesnt need an excuse or words to back it up; and
those in power, who dont know anything, better be really good at convincing people
with words, otherwise people might realize they dont know anything. This statement,
Ive come to believe is quite contextual and very Chinese; something about which most
westerners have little or no idea.
These abilities are simply a byproduct of correct practice. They are not a substitute for
enlightenment and wisdom, but they are the signs that youre progressing toward
actual enlightenment. Ironically, one of the masters I recently met in China is a devoted
Buddhist and uses his powers to heal and help build up his community; He actually can
trace his masters back directly to the founding patriarch of shaolin, the Bodhi Dharma
or Da Mo, which ever story you prefer. The practice he teaches is the original neikung of
shaolin; which has now been lost in the temples and monasteries.
I would like to relate some background that was passed on to me from my teacher who
has spent career as an anthropologist for the last 15 years in China researching and
studying these arts and gets paid thousands of dollars by universities and governments
to talk about Chinas culture and spiritual traditions. The tradition says that when Da Mo
reached Shaolin, seeing how the monks were dedicated but unsuccessful in their
practice he retired in a cave to ask the help of Heaven in order to support the monks.
He lived in a cave for 9 years, during which he not only became fully enlightened, but
received Ling Bao, manifested divine scripts that appear from nothingness, the history
of which goes back at least 2 millennia in China; long before Buddhism appeared in
China. These Ling Bao were the full transmission of the Lei Shan Dao (otherwise known
as the thunder and lightning path), namely the Lei Shan Gong, the Tai Yi Shen Gong
and the Wu Xiang Shen Gong. Its interesting to note that they were not Buddhist in
origin, but rather Daoist. The final element is that when Da Mo taught, the transmission
became known as the Shaolin Wu Shu or the five arts of Shaolin. Namely: Yi Jin Jing,
Shi Shui Jing, Long An Zhuan, Yi Zhi Chang and Jing Bu Gang. They only became
known as Buddhist practices by proxy and were wisely adopted as Buddhist practices,
just as many Daoist groups adopted elements of Buddhism.
When I was recently in China I witnessed a rare ceremony where my teacher was made
a family student of a living neikung lineage that retains all of the teachings; the very
teachings of Da Mo. This is an extremely rare occurrence for a westerner to be accepted
as family into this lineage. Over three hundred monks and lay practitioners from the
eight sacred mountains, including a group of Shaolin monks, showed up to witness the
acceptance of a westerner into their family. Of all the people who participated in the
ceremony, I found it ironic that the masters with the most power and achievement
knew the least about when to speak and bow and other details of the superficial aspects
of Buddhist practice.
The truth is that the people who always shun power and, even worse, claim they have
power, but refuse to demonstrate it on grounds that its some kind of ego trip and it
would be contrary to some ethical or moral code, basically have no achievement. They
hide behind clever words, but, as I said before, the actual practice of these arts is far
more involved than most people currently involved in the superficial aspects of them
care to know. This path is full of irony and missteps, but thats the nature of the search.
When you find a real master and they demonstrate their abilities in front of your eyes,
it has a way of convincing you that maybe youre on to something real. If youre just
told to believe, hey, Im enlightened, then you just have to take it on faith that the
person is telling the truth. Unfortunately the truth is, anybody can say nice things and
sound very profound and a lot of people just believe it even if its crap.
On more than one occasion, my teacher told us an experience he had with Wang Li Ping
in China. Yes, my teacher is a close student of Wang Li Ping from the book which some
you made have read called Opening the Dragon Gate; just one of his many masters, all
of whom have achieved. Anyway, he asked about enlightenment and how one really can
know if theyre enlightened. Sherfu Wang was silent. Suddenly he stood up and left the
room, locking door behind him. A moment later he walked back in the room, passing
right through the wall as if it didnt even exist. My teachers jaw dropped as Sherfu
calmly and simply explained that when you are enlightened you are truly one with your
environment; not just intellectually or spiritually, but totally. Many can talk of such
things, but very few people have achieved it and can transmit the teaching and fewer
still are willing to teach. These demonstrations of power serve one purpose; to inspire
and give faith to deserving students. Point of fact, Sherfu Wong Kiew Kit has on many
occasions demonstrated the breaking of bricks and this cloud dispersing demonstration
that I hear people on this forum refer to from time to time. These demonstrations,
while not representative of full achievement, are way beyond ordinary human capacity
and serve to inspire students and build faith in the practice, not demoralize them or
cause people to become inflated and insane with greed for power. If anything, they
make one more humble.
Yes, power can be misused; thats why these things arent taught to the general public.
The reality is that without power you can never reach the goal. Even if you are a
Buddhist scholar who shuns power, at some point in your life you will discover that its
necessary. This is of course why all or a least many Buddhist teachers teach morality
and ethics first and then teach power. At least that used to be the case; today of
course, these levels of achievement have all but become extinct. Even to the extent
that, when people like John Dijang are written about, instead of recognizing him as true
master, he is criticized and slandered. Such is modern life; sadly, the magic has all but
died in our culture.
Sherfu Wong Kiew Kit has written, to me personally, on more than one occasion about
his grand master, Immortal Li. Sherfu Wong is certainly aware of such abilities and,
from his writing on the subject, obviously holds them in high regard. Immortal Li was a
great master with powers like a God. The belief that these powers are some kind of ego
trap that furthur tie us to the material world is utter nonsense; on the contrary, anyone
who has acheived these abilities has completely liberated themselves from this
mundane existence. They have broken the bonds of karma and firmly rooted
themselves on the path to the full enlightenment of the Buddha. Please don't be
confused on this point. These abilities are real and despite the fact that most of the
modern world is completely ignorant of them, they are very important and meaningful
teachings. I hope, one day that this power, and the blessing it carries, is revealed to the
world again, but there is a right way and a wrong way and apparently timing is
important.
John Dijangs deepest wish was to help the world with this blessing. Unfortunately, a
few bad apples ended that opportunity for the rest of us. But, perhaps there is a reason
for all things and all things unfold when they are ready to. Its a difficult system to
achieve and comes with many risks. Other teachings are more refined and much
quicker. Who knows, if we play are cards right perhaps the west can win back the
blessing that so many agree it has lost.
My teacher has encouraged me to share these secrets with you all, and Im happy to be
of service. Its my deep wish that this teaching will be reborn and the wish of the
masters living in China. Otherwise it will die. These posts represent the possibility of a
real opportunity. Otherwise I would not be here to waste your time and hold carrot in
front of your faces. Im here because I sense a maturity and kinship and because my
teacher asked me to. But, first we get to know each other. We can share a little and
dream together, if you are interested, and, if not, thats okay too.
Enough for now- Best, Sean
raja jin
hey there guys, topic seems to be heating up again lol,
well sean they were some really interesting posts & great stories there. its very
interesting what you said about devine scripts manifesting from other sources,etc. while
in indonesia i had the opprtunity also to meet several people who were said to have
devine gifts. this will sound ridiculous but these items do appear almost magicaly & out
of thin air to the meditator from higher beings & sources. some are like jewels,others
weapons & lost or ancient teachings to speed up the journey of the practitioner. one of
the "gifts" i managed to see was like a yellow old stone said to be given from a higher
power during an extended period of fasting & meditation. this stone once put in any
mobile object(car, even an airplane so im told!!) made the thing impossible to move.
like weighed down by millions of pounds you will just see the car sitting there & unable
to go anywhere. i dont know the value of such an object but it was very amazing and i
tested it myself on various occasions. once the stone is set-nothing moves,he he. very
strange indeed and powerful. btw........one word about searching for personal power
etc. i also was constantly put down and almost berated by others & so called masters
for searching out such skills. they termed them as "Low level" and called them
blockages to real enleightenment etc. well if these people cannot even perform so
called " Low Level" skill,how can they ever expect to obtain high level skill such as
enleightenment? fortunatley i got away from these kinds of people & found others who
delight in such demonstrations and use power as a mark of advancement. i agree with
sean that these powers directly prove ones mastery of chi and show the progress one
has made.
thnx guys great forum !
Shamsher
Dear Sean,
thank you for providing us with that information. I haven't the time now but would like
to discuss some things with you about your post later when i have some time(in this
thread).
God Bless Sham.

raja jin

Guys,
i wasnt sure where to post this one ! but since we are talking about thunder path
various and methods,i thought i could share it here. i recently found a very interesting
topic about another gentleman who also studies & teaches various methods of nei-kung
,thunder path and other taoist methods on the internet.one webpage claimed he
studied mo-pai nei kung but left after a dispute? the topic eventually leads to the
drinking of ones urine (lol) termed the golden elixir or drink of life for various benefits
inclding health,improving chi etc. ha ha ha :)) i will throw the link here for curious
minds( i hope moderators dont mind?sorry)
http://www.thetaobums.com/lofiversion/index.php/t1007.html
they also give a few of his breathing techniques,
anyway what i would like to know is..does sifu wong or any of the shaolin wahnam
students have any experience with this kind of practice. i have heard of the native
american indians doing this but never ,ever, in the taoist or chinese tradition. i wont be
trying it he he,im just curious about its ffects and benefits if any.
thnx guys
seandenty
Hey all,
I'd just like to add that I have a tremendous amount of respect for Sherfu Wong and
really admire both him and his students for their abilities. I just felt I should add that.
Best, Sean
raja jin
Yeah i would like to second that too !
Great work guys.
unseen
Dear Sean,
U have studied with many masters as u have said,these took u a long time to find.May i
ask u with all due respect,as your master asked,Wang Li Ping a alike question.With all
your masters and axceptance from them.That is what can u do,from all your abilites
that u have aquired.From yur many years with them
seandenty
Dear Sean,
U have studied with many masters as u have said,these took u a long time to find.May i
ask u with all due respect,as your master asked,Wang Li Ping a alike question.With all
your masters and axceptance from them.That is what can u do,from all your abilites
that u have aquired.From yur many years with them

I can chew gum and walk at the same time; beyond that, nothing. If you take a closer
look at my posts, you'll see that I've spent most of my time searching. The teachers I
speak of are all quite new to me. I did progress to the second part of the Mo Pai level
one training. But that's really not as big a deal as some might think. I do know some
masters though and they can do all variety of amazing demonstrations. The training I
have undertaken this year is the same taught for thousands of years, in it's pure,
original form and with the blessing that is required to carry it through. It's still being
taught to today by people who have reached real immortality. That's a good feeling.
In a few days, I'll post a few final reflections and give some resources for those who
care to delve further. I will include details about the abilities I was shown and perhaps
talk briefly about the various levels of this type of training and the abilities that indicate
mastery over these levels or achievments. At that point, I will have shared what I think
is reasonable and sensable. I hope that this becomes a stepping stone for those of you
who were taken with Kostas writing, if you wish it. That's really all I'm trying to do
here.
Thank you, Sean
HugoDarien

hugo, i feel it is rude to quote right out, so ill just say it.
theres a reason that these things are kept at a reasonable(sometimes not) amount,
secret.
each and everyone, that they for sure, are alone. d
Hi, D is ok you don't seem rude to me!
Yes there are many secrets out there but nowadays we can find many things on the
Internet, for example you can read interesting things here:
:http://www.taoists.co.uk/index.htm
http://www.stanford.edu/~pregadio/index.html
http://www.taorestore.org/trs/interview.html
http://www.eng.taoism.org.hk/general-daoism/development-of-daoism/pg1-2-8-37.asp
PS. This links are just for information and not for talk about them in this thread, if you
or I want to talk about them, then you should start a new thread!
each and everyone, that they for sure, are alone.
Well I belive that when Jesus Christ came back, (somewhere in the year 3000 according
if you belive in the bible) then we will know everything, from the beginning until the
end! I belive we are never spiritual alone:D
Btw Hugo, i agree with you that Master Wong's Chi Kung book is excellent. I borrowed
from a library and got quite a lot out from it. :D
Good Good , I read in this book: The Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen
Taoist Masters (Suny Series in Chinese Philosophy and Culture) by Stephen Eskildsen
(Author) that the best book in English about internal and external Neidan is this one:
Science and Civilisation in China, Vol. 5 nos 2, 4 and 5 by Joseph Needham
http://www.amazon.com/Science-Civilisation-China-Vol-5/dp/0521303583/sr=16/qid=1159360379/ref=sr_1_6/104-1283238-2959912?ie=UTF8&s=books
Dear Sean,
Your open heart is very much appreciated. Thanks for sharing your interessting
experiences.I am very interessted to hear more of your experiences in China, when
meeting Masters of differnt styles:)
[QUOTE=Chi Addict;48543]Yes sean do tell us more about your experiences in China. :)
Sean, I'd like to hear more too.
piers
PLEASE I hope and pray too, for more words from you dear Sean!
...Let me fill you in; those in power, who know, dont have to say anything, because
real power doesnt need an excuse or words to back it up; and those in power, who
dont know anything, better be really good at convincing people with words, otherwise
people might realize they dont know anything.
I love those words!
When I was recently in China I witnessed a rare ceremony where my teacher was made
a family student of a living neikung lineage that retains all of the teachings; the very
teachings of Da Mo. This is an extremely rare occurrence for a westerner to be accepted
as family into this lineage. Over three hundred monks and lay practitioners from the
eight sacred mountains, including a group of Shaolin monks, showed up to witness the
acceptance of a westerner into their family.
I wish good wishes for your teacher and I feel good, because he have been accepted
into the family!
...On more than one occasion, my teacher told us an experience he had with Wang Li
Ping in China. Yes, my teacher is a close student of Wang Li Ping from the book which
some you made have read called Opening the Dragon Gate; just one of his many
masters, all of whom have achieved. Anyway, he asked about enlightenment and how
one really can know if theyre enlightened. Sherfu Wang was silent. Suddenly he stood
up and left the room, locking door behind him. A moment later he walked back in the
room, passing right through the wall as if it didnt even exist. My teachers jaw dropped
as Sherfu calmly and simply explained that when you are enlightened you are truly one
with your environment; not just intellectually or spiritually, but totally. Many can talk of
such things, but very few people have achieved it and can transmit the teaching and
fewer still are willing to teach.
I feel so happy that you know histories and that your teacher know Celestial Immortal
Wang Liping, wow Wang Liping is so amazing! I would sure be whit a dropped jaw many
days remembering that experience, something that it must feel so strong to see it whit
you own eyes and not just read it in the Internet!
...My teacher has encouraged me to share these secrets with you all, and Im happy to
be of service. Its my deep wish that this teaching will be reborn and the wish of the
masters living in China. Otherwise it will die. These posts represent the possibility of a
real opportunity. Otherwise I would not be here to waste your time and hold carrot in
front of your faces. Im here because I sense a maturity and kinship and because my
teacher asked me to. But, first we get to know each other. We can share a little and
dream together, if you are interested, and, if not, thats okay too.
Enough for now- Best, Sean
I want to dream whit you and many others about this so much interesting subjects,
now I feel that the tears I have share for this Chi Kung arts begin to heal, because I
was hoping and hope still and still whit tears in my eyes that precious arts like Martial
Art and Chi Kung don't be lost forever, I hope this arts be alive to never be lost again!
Regards:)
/Hugo
seandenty
Dear All,
I think weve come to a good stopping point. You all have my respect and Im pleased
with the general common courtesy and level of respect shown by the members here. I
told David you were a good group and you didnt let me down. So, as promised, I will
share a taste of my experience.
As some of you have rightly guessed in emails to me, David is my teacher. If you do
have an interest in continuing these conversations, I would invite you to email me
personally. Please send me an email even if you have already contacted me; in the
subject line of your email just write FOUNDATION in caps. In the email please write
your full name and nothing more. Please, no further comments or questions; save
those for David.
Please dont PM me as I wont be checking the forum here any time soon unless David
asks me to add any further information about these experiences.
What follows is a personal account of my recent trip to Asia that I shared with some
fellow students. This particular letter focuses in on my experience with two masters I
met who are in the Lei Shan Dao, thunder path lineage. Like John Chang or Dijang,
whichever you prefer, they displayed abilities beyond the scope of mainstream reality,
including telekinesis, pyrogenesis, alteration of fluids and matter (alchemy),
manifestation of spiritual light and sounds and other incredible things. They are both
amazing people too. Please note that I hold both these men in the highest esteem and
personal attacks would be very hurtful. Its easy to say hurtful things when youre
looking in from the outside, but both these men deserve your respect even if you are
only reading about them.
To protect their privacy, I have not used there actual names.
Sherfu J, the master that recently accepted David as a family student, has trained over
thirty students to the so called level four and above. Apparently this is usually
accomplished in only a few years with the training that he gives. When you compare
that to the fact that the head of Mo Pai, John Chang has brought no students to this
level in thirty years, its easy to see that the Mo Pai system is a much more raw and
unrefined technique. Despite Sherfu Changs immense power, he is one of the highest
masters of the Lei Shan Dao alive; he hasnt been successful in his teaching, in part
because he never intended to do so. In all this time, he has only truly accepted two
students as real family, both Chinese.
Heres my letter:
Okay here is a taste of what I experienced. Jordons description of Sherfu L was very
accurate and my experience was very similar. I can actually still feel where he touched
the top of my head and my mid eye point when I practice, so I think there was
something to what David said about the empowerment he gave helping us with the
practice. Ls treatment was more of an empowerment I would say, as opposed to a
healing or diagnosis which a better descriptor for Sherfu Js treatment; Im sure that
both masters probably do both. When L touches the top of your head with his qi, you
literally see a light like a Forth of July sparkler. You dont see with your visual center,
but, at least it seemed this way to me, you see it with your mind or perceive it with
your mind; its still very physical and bright. Also the music he played while he was
treating me was really interesting; some kind of chanting like nothing Ive ever heard.
It really stuck with me. During the treatment, as L worked on various points around my
body, my muscles would contract so strongly that I couldnt keep my hands held
together in the position he had me hold no matter how much I resisted. After when we
meditated at Ls house, I felt a steady pressure on the bai hui point and it felt like my
whole body had been pressurized with qi.
Sherfu L was also a very gracious host. He offered us a great deal of very strong
Chinese tea and said some blessings for us. Hes very devoted to Kuan Yin the Goddess.
After we left, I could still feel a bit of a buzz and felt very calm. Even a few nights after,
I could feel his energy or the effects of his energy on many of the points he worked on;
especially the upper points. I still feel the effects of his treatment as some areas have
been permanently activated. L is also a martial artist and has done a lot of work with
the military if I remember correctly. He looks it too with short cropped hair and
definitely an athlete. The guy was very gentle, but there were a few pictures of him on
the wall doing some hardcore kung fu; the guy could probably kill you with his pinky.
According to David he teaches a technique where you gradually learn to absorb higher
and higher voltages of electricity from a wall socket or a generator directly into your
body to boost your power. I guess when you get really good you can absorb energy
directly from the environment; you just suck it in to body. David said these students
learn to absorb over 200 volts or something like that. Anyway, its enough to kill you
quick; pretty amazing.
Sherfu J was totally different. Where L is very modest in the way he lives, very simple
and in a modest area of town, J is a little more well lets just say he likes nice things.
When we met him for the first time, he was wearing a bright red basketball jersey and
matching shorts with some sporty flip flops. He had a big smile on his face and came
out to greet us very warmly. His home is very nice, with marble flooring, big overstuffed
leather coaches and a giant big screen TV. Actually in the setting we were in, I found it
quite tasteful. From what I gathered, when youre in Sherfus town, you really get taken
care of and he entertains a great deal. After the second day I realized that the material
luxuries are most likely really for the people who come to visit and that Sherfu and
everything about him is about taking care of other people. From my short stay with
him, I really feel Ive met one of the most amazing people I may ever meet. From what
Im told, He spends most of his time doing charity work and helping people during our
stay he fed us and paid for our accommodations and seemed to be very concerned with
our comfort and really went out of his way to make sure we were doing well during our
stay. And the food was really amazing.
The day after the ceremony, which was also quite an experience, Sherfu came to visit
our hotel a few blocks from his home and began treating us one after the other. He
would have each person sit in front of him with their feet on a wet towel. Then his
assistant would come over and ground your feet by pressing the main energy point
firmly and passing his qi into the sole of the foot. Then J would activate his qi by
concentrating and doing a short breathing exercise while he pushed the qi into his
hands by pressing them into the air in front of him a couple times. After hes done this
he asks the person to stand and holds their hand while he directs the qi into their body
by pushing his other hand along the length of his arm and then into the body. When he
injects you with his chi, the muscles in your arm gently, but irresistibly contract as his
qi courses into your body. His qi is more like a steady magnetic force that produces a
strong gentle current wherever he moves it in your body. At this point he relaxes and
begins systematically touching various points on that side of your body. He touched
different points on different people and each time the corresponding part of the body
would gently and suddenly contract. When he was done checking a given side of your
body, he would use this same technique of guiding the qi to pull his qi back into his
arm. This was very interesting to watch. After he checked each person he would give a
detailed report through the translator about the condition of each persons health and
status of their over all energy and issue a clean bill of health or advise further
treatment.
Sherfu recommended further treatment for several people in our group, including
myself, later that day. The healings and treatments he administered that afternoon
were probably the most remarkable and amazing things I have witnessed in my life up
to this point. I will certainly never forget what I saw and what I went through. The only
thing I can compare it to is watching my sons birth.
It wouldnt be appropriate to share what others in the group went through in terms of
their treatment, but I can tell you about my experience. Im sharing this because, if I
were you Id want to hear it and hopefully its worth telling. Anyway after a big lunch at
Sherfus house, I was asked to stay behind with the translator and some of Sherfus
students. Three weeks earlier Sherfu L found an imbalance in my kidneys. He didnt
make much of it, but suggested I take some herbs which he prepared the following day
and said that he felt the imbalance was due to improper qigong practice. Perhaps he
planted a seed in me; I dont know, but I had some experiences in the weeks after and
something told me to go to China even though I didnt really have the money. As a
side, David said that many people who practice the Healing Dao methods end up with
this type of imbalance. In any case, on the morning that Sherfu J tested us, as he
passed his qi into my left side the qi began to pulse, stopping and starting in a kind of
rhythm as my arm contracted and released. He said that I had a fairly serious blockage
in my kidney area and would need to draw some of the stagnant blood out and prepare
some special herbal pills. One of the members of our group had been through
something very similar and having shared their story, prepared me to some degree for
what I was about to experience. That afternoon Sherfu had me stand on his porch as he
lanced the veins in the back of both my knees with a prong the size of a knitting needle
what seemed like at least a half inch into the flesh. After he got the blood flowing he
used his qi to push the affected blood out of my body. What came out of me was about
a half pint of what looked like roof tar. It was literally black and thick like a paste.
Sherfu said that if I hadnt come to him, I would have been quite possibly hit with a
stroke within the year. After the treatment I actually felt really good. I was given
several large herbal pills to clear anything that was left in my system. According to
Sherfu, because of the properties of the type of medicine that I was given, I will never
have to worry about this problem again and will be able to reach my optimal health. I
guess these pills have a lot of qi and are a specialty of this lineage. I have to say, I
really have been feeling good since Ive been back. The Translator who was with me
told me that when he met Sherfu he was completely paralyzed in his left arm and
couldnt turn his neck at all. Apparently he had the same kind of blockage or blood
condition as me, but more advanced; he said that he was totally cured within two years
of meeting Sherfu J.
In addition to the treatments I experienced and witnessed, Sherfu and his student, the
translator, demonstrated there ability to transform water into this sweet nectar with
their qi. Some people in the group had asked David if they could see this particular
demo, so David politely requested for the group. Basically Sherfu just took a bottle of
ordinary water and let everyone have a taste. Then he set the water on the table and
pushes some qi into it for a minute or two. When hes done we all got to taste it; its
like sweet honey, but not like any kind of recognizable sweet taste. His student did the
same demo later that night. It was really amazing and, at the same time, just very
matter of fact and done with out any preparation. Im told Sherfus favorite demo is to
take a nice steak in his palm, crack an egg on it and fry it to a perfect medium rare
right in his hand. Pretty freaking slick.
We also got to see a woman demo her yin yang gong by giving David a jolt of qi. The
women in our group were very inspired to see a woman, who had two children no less,
who had achieved this power.
The next morning at 6am, Sherfu called me back to his house and gave me several
weeks worth of some more common herbs to take as a tonic and asked me to come
back when I had an opportunity to do so. He was very kind and wished me well as I left
that morning. Because I had to catch a connecting flight that afternoon in Shanghai,
Sherfu arranged an 8 hour taxi ride through the Chinese countryside which was a great
way to end my trip.
Thats my story.
So, its been real, as they say and Ive enjoyed chatting with you. Goodbye and God
bless you all in your respective practices.
Best, Sean
Chi Addict
Much appreciated for sharing your experiences Sean. Also much thanks to Shaolin
Wahnam for running such an open but well-moderated forum.
I do hope there will be a revival of these teachings soon. There is much benefit it can
bring to everyone.
Shamsher
Hi Sean,
what I wanted to ask you was:
why would someone who can pass through walls be necessarily enlightened?
That person may be cultivated to a high level but not necessarily enlightened.
Not that I would know:)
portcraig
I went with Sean to Thailand and met Shifu L, who David introduced us to. It was quite
an experience for me. When he touched the different points I felt electricity pour
through. I have felt different since that happened.
David to me was quite normal, very educated, and knowledgeable about China, its
culture, and of course Masters. I don't know what David was into in his younger days
but right now he is focused on living and studying with Shifu J in China in order to try
and achieve Yin Yang Gong. I met David for the first time in August. I attended a two
week Foundation Training retreat which he taught to a group of 7 people in Thailand.
I didn't go to China with Sean as I didn't have the extra money or time to go. Sean was
the only one of our group to go. We were all invited.

I was not sent to this forum by David to defend him. I am just giving my experience
and point of view.
Jordon
Hi Guys,
I think it's important to say something here about the guy who calls himself "Raja Jin".
I don't intend to take part in this discussion, I just want to let some of the forum
members here know who Raja Jin is and why you shouldn't listen to him.
Raja Jin's name is Tony #####, he lives in Brisbane, Australia, and he suffers from a
mental illness. One of his friends named Steve (who is also from Brisbane and suffers
from a mental illness) was treated by John Chang a long time ago due to severe
physical ailments. Sifu Chang treated Steve with acupunture and Qi and he was cured. I
think this is why Tony seems to have such an interest in the Mo-Pai and the thunder
path practices.
Tony is in no way affiliated with the Mo Pai, or any other school like it.
He has developed a reputation over the last few years as a trouble maker who likes to
spread rumours about people such as Andreas, Kostas and now David. He can be quite
irrational and he also has a history of threatening people. If you want proof just go to
the Cyberkwoon forum and read some of his posts. It's all in this thread...
http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11654&highlight=mopai
You will see that he probably suffers from Schizophrenia, and I was told he is also Bipolar. I know that what he has written on this forum so far doesn't sound much like the
ramblings of a schizophrenic, but please don't take him seriously.
I think you guys have a great forum here so I thought it would be best to let you all
know that Tony doesn't know anything about these practices (or any of the people who
teach them), even though he says a lot of things and trys to make himself sound like he
knows what he is talking about.
Regards,
Jordon
Antonius

I've taken care of Raja Jin and his post, but I deleted his name from your post, Jodon.
We're not in the business of making named accusations like that.
Okay, back to our reguarly scheduled programming.
raja jin

Dear jordan,
Its very nice to see you have taken such an interest in me and my posts.
Considering the fact that i have never met you before or even heard your
name,basically sums up everything.
As far as rumours about Andreas & Kosta are concerned..........everybody knows about
the true nature of these individuals and the punishment they bought upon themselves
and others.
so nothing more really needs to be said.
cheers.
unseen
Dear Jorden.
Jordon there seems to be a lot of mental illiness in Brisbane,from what u say.Where do
u think it may come from.Also it is a long way for this Steve to go for accupunture
treatment don,t u think
darkrider
2nd October 2006, 05:47 PM
whenever i think of mental illness, i cant stop shaking. how close was anyone who did
not get mental illness, to getting it?......
good thoughts, good thoughts...-darkrider
Chi Addict
Hi guys,
3rd October 2006, 02:35 AM
On a related note, i wanted to share something related to this thread.

Years before i even read abt the Magus of Java, i remembered watching a few
Taiwanese variety shows where they invited neigong masters to perform various feats.
One of them was giving qi 'massage' by lightly touching the particpants' face. You could
see their face contort from the reactions to the 'electric' flow. The master also lightly
touched other parts, causing the arm to jerk uncontrollably.
At that time, i was thinking wow this master must have a lot of chi to do that.
On hindsight, he was most probably a yin-yang gong master. Interesting.
Anyone recalled watching that show?
darkrider
6th October 2006, 06:32 PM
this is not about anything between raja jin and jordan, so dont group me together.
about that yellow stone that manifested out of thin air, raja said that it could hold down
anything, a car, or a plane. you said what use is that'', just think. if an enemy is
escaping in some vehicle, simply put it down, and he/she cannot run away.
in other words, theres always a use for something, you just dont always know what for.
'wonder what pieces of it could do?;)
think mc guyver, with just gum and a paper clip.
-respect to the good, darkrider
Omar
21st November 2006, 05:05 AM

Quite an amazing thread, this is. I've been up all night reading through it, time passes
so fast when you are enjoying yourself :eek:
Early on ther was some discussion about Chang San Feng, and I became curious about
him. Heres a nicecly put together page of information about him.
http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/chang1.htm
I will now go do my morning chi kung and then get some sleep.
Thank you to everyone contributing to this thread so far.
hermit
14th December 2006, 05:55 AM
I just started reading this thread...does anyone know how I can reach
3rdlevelmopai?
HugoDarien
22nd December 2006, 12:50 AM
I dont know dear hermit but you can be introduce to the magic of tao in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFzitJzlwYQ
Regards ~
Hugo
Antonius
Dear Shifu Andreas,
24th December 2006, 04:52 PM
We have had several emails back and forth over the years, and I have shown nothing
but respect for your teacher and your organization. I have made public announcements
on your behalf, edited threads for you on this forum, and personally fielded numerous
questions from people looking for your teacher.
I made this effort for one reason -- as a gesture of respect. Sadly, that respect has not
been reciprocated. I am extremely disappointed that, in spite of all my efforts to help
your organization, you chose to publicly disrespect us in your first post -- and on
Christmas Eve nonetheless. Christmas is a time for spreading goodwill and love, not
anger and aggression. Our family forum is not a place for angry political battles
amongst other organizations.
As far as I know, Jim (aka 3rdLevelMoPai) has not broken any rules, so he has not been
banned. If he has been posting misinformation about your teacher, then someone from
your organization could have contacted me privately, as they have done in the past. Or
you could have posted a response long ago. You may remember that I sent you an
email after Jim's first post bringing your attention to it and inviting you to respond. You
chose not to respond to me or Jim until now.
Our forum is generally open to outsiders who follow the rules, but I believe that this has
gone on far enough. I will consult with my Sifu, but I think it is probably time to delete
all of the "Magus of Java" threads and wash our hands of this matter. After all, this
issue has nothing to do with us, our students, or our organization. We are innocent
bystanders. Certainly, this kind of Christmas "cheer" has no place on our family forum.
Sincerely, respectfully, and disappointed,
Andreas
Dear Antonius,
I'm sorry it has happened this way, but this situation is what it is. Yes youve been kind,
understanding and helpful, but and the same time youve stood by and done nothing.
You have numerous anonymous members with multiple accounts having conversations
with themselves and attacking otherswho are incidentally all part of the Grandmaster
Jim misfit club. Id hardly refer to that kind of environment as one where people could
have an intelligent discussion, and talk things through.
This is the place where Jim was allowed to post his lunatic ravings, and was even aided
by a moderator in making his crap readable. I explained my terms to Jim in July and
waited 6 months. If he really is level 3 and been truthful in his post, then he wont have
a problem facing me and Shifu. If not, well no matter how good it sounds, it will be
obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense.
Am I being aggressive, nojust cleaning things up. Think its time 3 members from your
forum here in Australia, 2 in Brisbane and one in Perth and Jim get a dose of reality.
Warmest Regards & Merry Xmas
Andreas..
raja jin
I think Everybody ought to take a deep Breath !

This challenging stuff is just crazy.
Most people have calmed down & over all have just been content with what they know
trying to better themselves.
Forgive your Enemies & learn to love thy neighbour. Surely the World will be a better &
happier place.
Andreas
Dear Tony(Raja Jinn),
Hope you have had a nice Xmas. I understand your point and appreciate your good
intentions, but what's right is right. You rang me and apologized to me a short time ago
and got Tu Le to own up and apologize...and certain posts were taken down also on
another forum...everything solved. But understand, I've given Jim 6 months and now
it's time to face the music. I have his address and details now...so either he takes down
these posts and posts an apology as I asked him to 6 months ago or he meets me at
Shifu's. I doubt he has the stones... so I'll probably have to look him up in the US.
You know once upon a time, when men were men, and sheep weren't nervious...men
had the stone's and honour mean't something. We will see what level Bali Bruce is soon
enough.
Anyway, enjoy your holidays...and thanks again.
Warmest Regards & GB
Andreas..
raja jin
Well i just wish everybody well & hope we can all get along for a change.
Thankyou for the kind words Andreas,and yes once again i Apologize for any harm i
have ever caused on these forums.
Sincerly,
Tu Le
Dear Andreas,
Can't we all just get along. Look, I'm pretty confident that Antonius Siheng and Sifu will
make a decision to delete the entire MAgus of Java thread. Again, I apologise for any
inconvinience I have caused to you.
So,
Dear Sifu and Siheng Antonius, Siheng Andrew,
Please, can you remove the entire thread "the MAgus of Java"? Surely, it has nothing to
do with Shaolin Wahnam.
Don't forget:
ONE WORD HAS THE ABILITY TO START A WAR
Andreas,
- Smile from the heart
:)
If you don't know how to, heres another example:
:D
Oh yea, Merry Christmas Everyone. Oh wait, just past.... Happy Boxing Day!!!
Tu Le
Forgot to tell you Andreas.

Jim doesn't know how to delete his messages on this forum. Actually, nobody except for
the moderators can delete or modify their own posts after a given time limit. So the
posts are there for good, unless the moderators can do something about it.
So, I ask you again moderators: Can you please delete this entire thread "Magus of
Java" so that everyone can move on and forget the whole thing?
HugoDarien
Hello!
I just want to said:
PLEASE, can you have litle patience, my Sihengs and Sifu are thinking, it going to take
litle time!
Regards
Hugo
PS. I belive they are going trought all the post in the thread, to make a wise desicion!
qistudent

Whatever Sifu Wong and the moderators decide to do with this thread I
respect since this is their house and we are guests here.
I just wanted to add that a lot of valuable information has been shared here.
People who have read the book were full with questions and this thread was
more than helpful in answering certain questions. People in the future will
read this book and will have the same questions. Most have nowhere to go
and will be more than happy when they discover the amount of useful
information that has been shared here.
Would it be possible to only have the negative and offensive deleted from
this thread and to keep the discussion open?
I have nothing but respect for Sifu Wong and the organization for allowing us
to have this discussion here.

Qistudent
Antonius
Dear all,
I received an apology from Shifu Andreas via private message, and I have accepted his
apology. At his request, and with Sifu's permission, I have deleted one of his posts.
I have discussed the matter of this thread with Sifu Wong. Despite Tu Le's request, we
have decided to leave the thread open for the time being. We have many good reasons
for this decision, but the most important is that we want to encourage peace among the
different groups here.
As many of you have seen, challenges still happen today. Shaolin Wahnam has been
challenged many times, in public and private, for its open honesty about internal force,
curing incurable diseases, and other so-called "supernatural" powers. We have also
experienced our share of internal political battles. However, Shaolin Wahnam overcame
all of these problems and remains a happy, healthy, and unified family. We would like to
encourage the same in others.
In the spirit of the holidays, I would respectfully request that everyone take a few days
to practice forgiveness. Afterwards, if people choose to do so, they may continue
posting their opinions in this thread. I trust that the discussion will remain respectful
and reasonable, and that everyone will work towards a peaceful resolution, either in
public or in private.
(Note: We will not be deleting any more posts for the time being. For the record, we
cannot simply delete someone's posts just because a few people request it. Even if a
user requests that his own posts be deleted, the moderators and administrators have to
be very careful not to delete evidence or disrupt the flow of a thread. It would be better
to delete the entire thread. This is common practice on internet forums, and is the
reason that one typically cannot edit or delete one's own posts 15 minutes after they
have been submitted. Nevertheless, there are rare times when administrators choose to
edit or delete posts for the benefit of the thread and the forum.)
Happy holidays to all,
Tu Le

Andreas, sir. I pmed you something important. I do wish you and Jim will sort this out
in a civilised manner and become good friends again.
With respect,
- Tu
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Fat Sau

11th February 2003, 05:34 PM

11th February 2003, 05:47 PM

11th February 2003, 08:03 PM

12th February 2003, 04:06 PM

They really are incredible.

12th February 2003, 06:41 PM

12th February 2003, 07:11 PM

22nd July 2004, 03:58 AM

22nd July 2004, 10:35 AM

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Budda

22nd July 2004, 03:34 PM

I'm reading this now. I'll comment once I've finished. :)

22nd July 2004, 11:28 PM

14th January 2005, 12:37 AM

14th January 2005, 01:15 AM

14th January 2005, 04:40 AM

14th January 2005, 11:58 AM

14th January 2005, 03:14 PM

15th January 2005, 09:56 AM

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

15th January 2005, 02:49 PM

15th January 2005, 03:00 PM

16th January 2005, 12:31 AM

16th January 2005, 03:04 AM

18th January 2005, 12:24 AM

Very interesting. Thank you, mopai.

18th January 2005, 08:18 AM

18th January 2005, 08:41 AM

19th January 2005, 02:02 PM

than John's. He is a low level but he he can break 4 by 4's while

is part of the body of knowledge she possesses."

19th January 2005, 02:52 PM

19th January 2005, 10:11 PM

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

19th January 2005, 11:07 PM

20th January 2005, 03:33 AM

20th January 2005, 11:12 AM

Hello again everyone, haven't been here for a bit.

17th May 2005, 10:05 PM

17th May 2005, 10:22 PM

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

18th May 2005, 04:59 AM

Greetings and welcome Sean :)

18th May 2005, 06:58 AM

18th May 2005, 04:05 PM

18th May 2005, 04:42 PM

Thanks for the warm welcome.

18th May 2005, 10:39 PM

19th May 2005, 05:09 AM

19th May 2005, 06:18 AM

19th May 2005, 09:50 AM

19th May 2005, 04:12 PM

19th May 2005, 11:09 PM

20th May 2005, 12:29 AM

20th May 2005, 03:55 PM

21st May 2005, 02:36 AM

21st May 2005, 02:40 AM

22nd May 2005, 10:13 AM

21st June 2005, 08:41 AM