PS Asks

John V. Grimaldi
John V. Grimaldi, Ph.D., was 1961-62 ASSE worked for GE. However, we really do not have
President. He was considered a true visionary in the any right to speak of safety management. In the
safety profession. This interview was conducted in past, safety people were not given the chance to
2006, but he asked ASSE not to publish it at that manage, but if they did, they had to become effec-
time. Following his passing in 2011, his wife granted tive persuaders more than anything else. The term
ASSE permission to publish the interview. management implies the ability to run things and
to have the ability to make decisions that impact
PS: You have written several books on the operation, but the safety manager and the
safety management. How has safety man- practice of safety management do not really run
agement changed since the 1960s? things.
John: In my view, the practices and philoso- Safety advanced one giant step with the
phies addressing management techniques have introduction of the term safety management. It
changed. We really do not know all that much created job titles and positions that never existed
about safety management. The work of managing before, but it has not yet realized its full potential.
John Grimaldi
is persuading someone else to work. Today, we are still constantly fighting with people
What does that really mean in terms of safety? to make them see the value of safety. I had the
Does that mean we can be devious sometimes privilege of being on the committee that wrote
can a safety manager bribe a worker, take a work- the OSHA bill. One of the questions I asked was,
er out to dinner or a show for doing a good job? What will you do with those people who violate
It is a tough balancing act. Then there is the rules? Many companies still have yet to
the camp that calls for tough management answer that question. Do we fire them, fine them
styles. Managers who snap the whip all or reassign them?
I am very the time may get more output than others I have been outspoken on the need for safety
encouraged but only for a short period. My point is professionals to become champions for safety
to see that that we are not sure where safety manage- management. On many occasions, we have
ment is going. We need to do more. relegated ourselves to being the sideline advisor.
the art and I am very encouraged to see that the We identify a problem, then walk away. That was
science art and science of safety management a problem before, and in my opinion, it still is. We
of safety continue to move forward. For decades, need to be more outspoken and carry the banner.
one thing I have said is that we need to Safety management gave safety specialists a title
management show the positive return for safety. ASSE of importance, a feeling of responsibility and pro-
continue to has been doing quite a bit on this, and I fessional acceptance measured strongly by those
move am happy to see articles on topics such as executives who learned the value of an effective
enterprise risk management. We need to safety program.
forward. move the safety debate forward.
John Grimaldi
The concept of dynamics in safety is PS: Do you believe that the role of SH&E
hard to quantify or evaluate. If we go with professionals has changed as well?
my belief that safety has no dynamics to John: I took over the Center of Safety at New
it, it is hard to relate safety to upper management. York University (NYU) in the 1970s, and I was
We had good results up to a point, but we are still the director of the Institute of Safety and Systems
far from what we want to achieve. Management at the University of Southern Cali-
An example for me is Hurricane Katrina. I fornia. I talked to people in safety, and they knew
personally surveyed the levees in New Orleans, the terms and could quote from textbooks, but we
LA, almost 12 years ago, and from what I saw, never discussed safety philosophically early in my
not enough was done [to ensure their integrity]. career. We talked about hazards and exposures
It seems that the problem with the levees was and how to control them or to engineer them out
known long before the disaster, but without the of the working area.
immediate impact of a hurricane, it was difficult I think that is clearly changing. One only needs
to generate interest in dedicating resources to fix to open Professional Safety journal to read all of
the levees. The result was seen after the hurricane the articles about safety as a profession and the
occurred. need to grow. I hope that I contributed positively
istockphoto.com/david marchal

I feel that those who ran things in Louisiana to this debate and initiative during my career.
after Hurricane Katrina could have been much
more efficient and effective. Unfortunately, things PS: What current occupational safety and
went terribly for both the on-site management health developments do you believe war-
and the impacted citizenry. Safety management rant further research?
in that case was not dynamicit was relaxed. The John: I would like to see more research on
problem was not fully understood or appreciated management systems and on ways to move past
until after the catastrophic event took place. programs that are based only on compliance with
I coined the term safety management when I regulations. If we study effective programs that
26 ProfessionalSafety APRIL 2012 www.asse.org
 John V. Grimaldi, Ph.D. (Sept. 6, 1916 to
Oct. 8, 2011), received a Ph.D. from New York
University (NYU) in 1955, an M.A. from NYU
in 1941, a bachelors degree in Chemical
Engineering from the Polytechnic Institute of
Brooklyn in 1951 and a B.S. from New York
University in 1939. Grimaldi was a practicing
engineer and consultant in the specialty he
focus on factors other than incident rates, we safety and Boolean algebra, initiated in 1956, safety management. From
can identify what enables safety management to but I really think we need to 1977 to 1986, he was executive director and
progress. do more with management professor of safety science and systems
management at the Institute of Safety and
systems. At the same time, Systems Management at the University of
PS: How can colleges and universities bet- it is important that safety Southern California. From 1979 to 1986, he
ter prepare students who plan to pursue a professionals continue to have was clinical professor of community and
career in occupational safety and health? solid technical skills. System environmental medicine at the University of
John: There should be more advanced degree safety is critical because it California-Irvine College of Medicine. He was
programs. At NYU, one could earn a masters looks at safety from an engi- director of the Center for Safety and chair
degree in safety management, and for a doctorate, neering perspective and uses of the Department of Safety Sciences and
you could build your own program. I have seen solid engineering principles to Education at New York University from 1967
many smaller schools that now offer degrees. I identify hazards and expo- to 1977.
He served as consultant for safety, health
think this is good, but I am concerned that high- sures. Once we can find and
and plant protection with General Electric Co.
profile schools are not increasing their programs evaluate them through a risk at its New York corporate headquarters from
or are choosing to eliminate them. Smaller schools assessment, we are in a much 1956 to 1967. Prior to that, he was director
should not offer safety degrees if they do not have better position to implement of the Engineering and Research Division
the staffing or proper resources on the subject. But the management systems. and as assistant manager of the Accident
we need the high-profile schools to offer pro- Prevention Department of the Association of
grams to keep a focus on safety management. PS: You are recognized Casualty and Surety Cos. in New York from
as a leader of the safety 1945 to 1956. From 1944 to 1945, he was re-
PS: Based on your experience, what do profession, and you have search associate at NYUs Center for Safety.
you consider to be the greatest occupa- held key positions before From 1942 to 1944, he was director of safety
for Grumman Aircraft Engineering Corp. in
tional safety and health achievement of and after the creation
Bethpage, NY.
the past 30 years? of OSHA. How has the He led the development of the first
John: I think the movement of corporations to creation of OSHA affect- graduate-level academic training program in
implement solid safety programs needs to be ed ASSE and the SH&E occupational safety and health and occupa-
recognized. For example, DuPonts safety record profession? tional biomechanics at NYU. Grimaldi was a
is marvelous, and GE has always had a good John: Initially, it was posi- pioneer in early efforts to combine emerging
record. One way of advancing performance is to tive, but I have not been active management techniques with occupational
improve the conditions that cause bad things to with OSHA-related issues safety and health programs. He and Rollin
happen. In looking for improvements, one must for the past 10 years or so. Simonds coauthored Safety Management:
Unfortunately, the passing of Accident Cost and Control, a leading college
identify the conditions that cause problems as well
text for 3 decades.
as the person(s) who caused the negative result. time has considerably dimin-
Redesign and correction of the exposure should ished OSHAs requirements
always be considered first to ensure that control- and its applicability to new working areas. To me,
ling mechanisms are in top order. These types of it appears that there is little follow-up to ensure
companies are actively looking for hazards and that people are doing their jobs and meeting their
exposures, then implementing new systems to requirements after an inspection or complaint. I
correct them. They balance regulatory compliance have always taken the position that laws them-
with the need to move ahead. selves do not necessarily provide the results you
want unless you are a conscientious manager
PS: Many view you as a major leader in who gives time to all things management has to
promoting the use of technical concepts, consider. OSHAs nonexistent presence for almost
such as system/Boolean algebra, among all employers in the U.S. has become so familiar
safety engineers. What other technical that its impact is not felt as seriously as it was in
concepts can safety engineers benefit the beginning.
from today? That said, I have always supported agencies
John: We should use the ones we have as best as such as OSHA and NIOSH. I believe that solid
we can. Safety experience used to be based on the programs are based on much more than compli-
injury/severity rate or how many injuries occurred ance with regulations. Much of the regulation is
and the gravity of these injuries. That turned somewhat dated. Many progressive companies
into an expression that insurance companies and continue to advance and to look at things such
employers have settled for as an indicator of how as advanced management programs, quality
severe an exposure is. By keeping track of the fre- involvement of impacted parties and employees,
quency of injuries, they dropped the severity rate and creative approaches. I think we need to pay Read Johns full
and focused on all cases that occurred. Severity attention to regulations, but we also can advance. interview at
rate is the rate that governs the executive office. I mentioned several companies that I believe have www.asse
Expense control frequency rates are often little outstanding programs and are helping set the .org/psextra.
numbers, and larger numbers are more. stage for the future.
I am proud of the work I have done with system
www.asse.org APRIL 2012 ProfessionalSafety 27