Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/March 2020

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Motoichi Kumagai

Motoichi Kumagai is a feeble article. (I can be rude about it, because it's mine, pretty much.) It's feeble because it says so little. But what little it does say is I think decent enough. It's had a cleanup template for almost a decade. Because the article is mine [emoticon], I hesitate to remove the template. (The user who attached it has long disappeared.) Perhaps somebody here would like to tell me what the problems are, or remove the template. -- Hoary (talk) 00:57, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

@Hoary: I fiddled with it (reorganized the bibliography, split out a biography section, organized the refs, and such) and removed the tag. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:32, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Nihonjoe! Looking at the result of your edit, I notice for the the first time that the "Nihongo" template no longer adds a superscripted "?" linked to something about Japanese script -- I always thought that offering this more than once in an article was at best tiring for the reader and at worst an insult to the reader's intelligence. I've recently used "Nihongo2" elsewhere what seems like a squillion times; I hope I shan't be asked to change these. ¶ I'm not as opposed as many are to "drive-by tagging", but do tend to think that if the tagger can't be bothered to indicate what the problem is, then I can't be bothered to put any thought of my own into the matter. -- Hoary (talk) 11:10, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

@Hoary: The nihongo2 template is fine, but can be switched out as you get to it (perhaps when making another edit to the article). I did it here since I added information that wasn't previously there for many of the entries, and to maintain consistency. Regarding drive-by tagging, I agree with you. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:31, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Nihonjoe, I'm ever slower at "content creation", but fairly recently I did amplify Teikō Shiotani quite a bit. The thought of converting the (repeated) use of "Nihongo2" within it to a different use of "Nihongo" is disturbing. But I've just now taken a look at what "Nihongo" actually does. As a humdrum example, {{nihongo|''Ujigami-sama''|氏神さま|}} is realized as <i>Ujigami-sama</i><span style="font-weight: normal"> (<span lang="ja" title="Japanese language text">氏神さま</span>)</span>. Nothing wrong with that, but it still doesn't indicate that "Ujigami-sama" is, and should be pronounced as in, Japanese. Such an indication would be desirable for audio browsers (without which I suppose the automated reader perpetrates something horrible like /ˈudʒɪgəmisɛɪmə/). One could have {{lang|ja|Ujigami-sama}} ({{Nihongo2|氏神さま}}), which would make such an indication. Once we have names (which of course shouldn't be italicized), we need yet more complication: {{lang|ja|Sadayoshi Shiotani|italic=no}} ({{Nihongo2|鹽谷 定好}}). At which point, I start (i) wondering why the hell I should be bothering with all of this (at least as long as I'm not being paid to do so), (ii) thinking that my customary use of bog-standard Nihongo2 (and nothing more) seems a reasonable compromise. But I'm (moderately) open to persuasion. ¶ (Cough) Anyone here care to take a look at Didja know noms/Teikō Shiotani? -- Hoary (talk) 23:19, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

RFC notice

Hey WP:JAPAN!

There's an RFC regarding the origin of the Japanese word mottainai and its relationship (if any) to Japanese Buddhism. Please see Talk:Mottainai#RFC on Yuriko Sato citation.

Kind regards,

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:02, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Kibi Clan Rebellion

QuickTrial (talk · contribs) removed the content of the Kibi Clan Rebellion article, describing it as "pseudohistory presented as fact". I've restored the content, but marked the article with a {{disputed}} header until someone knowledgeable can take a look at this. If it is pseudohistory or myth (perhaps like the Arthurian legends?) its content should probably be marked as such, rather than the whole article deleted. -- The Anome (talk) 13:55, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I recently had a similar conversation with Nihonjoe about 70 in Japan and 29 BC in Japan: User talk:Nihonjoe#70 in Japan and 29 BC in Japan. I agree that some of our articles on Japanese prehistory need to go further in presenting what's depicted as mythical or unverified. If the article in question here isn't written from an in-universe perspective then I think it would be fine to keep most of the content. "Pseudohistory" is a strong word here but probably accurate in the end. Dekimasuよ! 14:51, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I did a quick Googling, and it does seem that this incident is not widely accepted by historians. This paper by Haruhito Koji, for instance, says もとより田狭の記事を史実そのものと認めるものではない。 while this paper says 事実かどうかわからない。

That being said, it seems highly likely that the above-linked editor was acting in bad faith, since this whole "relations between ancient Japan and ancient Korea" topic area is flooded with nationalist sockpuppets on both sides, and in this case even the account name seems to mark itself as a throwaway account. The way to deal with this would be to locate abundant reliable secondary sources (offline -- I have been unable to find much through Googling) and rewrite the article. Given the history of this topic area (see Talk:Korean influence on Japanese culture for just one example), I think it is unlikely that QuickTrial would be willing to do that (since scholarly sources frequently disagree with the nationalist POVs such accounts tend to want to push), but hopefully someone will at some point. I'd be happy to go to the library and do it myself once things cool down IRL (and once the on-wiki nonsense I've been having to deal with for the last year or so finally works itself out...).

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:30, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Fiona Graham

SPAs and IPs are yet again tussling over the article Fiona Graham -- more specifically, over ingredients of the description of Graham as a geisha. I wish every geisha well, and I don't want anybody or anything misdescribed in en:WP; but I confess to a total lack of interest in geisha and really don't want to spend time (i) comparing what the article says with what its cited sources say, and (ii) explaining all this to interested/passionate parties. (I'm far more interested in the anthropological component of the article.) Some other level-headed person(s) take a dispassionate look at the article, please. -- Hoary (talk) 08:03, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

More of the same at the article Geisha, too. -- Hoary (talk) 08:39, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Boshin War undergoing Featured Article Review

I have nominated Boshin War for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. -- Beland (talk) 20:13, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I've made a list of sourcing issues needing addressing. Please see Talk:Boshin War#Paragraphs needing references for more details. Any help is appreciated. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:39, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

COVID-19 updates: we need Japanese speakers

Updating statistics about COVID-19 cases in Japan (confirmed cases, deaths and recoveries) is quite difficult without working knowledge of Japanese. It would be great if a Japanese speaker could help checking that sourcing is accurate at 2020 coronavirus pandemic in Japan (see infobox) and Template:2019–20 coronavirus pandemic data. Thank you. --MarioGom (talk) 19:01, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

If you can give some more specific questions, I should be able to take a look within the next 24 hours. Dekimasuよ! 22:58, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Category for Dadaiko

The dadaiko (鼉太鼓) at Kasuga Shrine recently got designated as National Treasure. I would like to add them to List of National Treasures of Japan (crafts: others), but am unsure in what category/section they should go. I am not looking for an opinion but an official source which says something in this regard. Thanks. bamse (talk) 09:47, 24 March 2020 (UTC)