Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/June 2021

Talk & archives for WP Japan
Project talk 2006 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2007 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2008 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2010 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2011 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2012 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2013 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2014 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2015 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2016 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2017 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2018 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2019 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2020 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2021 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2022 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2023 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Task force talk/archives ↔ Baseball (1) Bibliography (1) ↔ Cinema (1) ↔ CJKV (1) ↔ Districts and municipalities (1) Gaijin tarento (1) ↔ Military history (1, 2, 3) Music (1) Mythology (1, 2, 3, 4) Owarai (1) Politics (1) Prefectures (1) Royalty & nobility (1) Science & technology (1) Shinto (1) ↔ Tokyo (1) ↔ Transwiki ↔ = joint task force
Old notice board All of 2004 Jan–Mar 2005 Apr–Jun 2005 Jul–Oct 2005 Nov–Dec 2005 Jan–Feb 2006 Feb–May 2006 Jun–Dec 2006 Jan–Jun 2007 Jun 2007 – Sep 2008
Related talk/archives Anime and manga (index) Hello! Project (1) Pokémon (index, PAC (1, 2), PAC 2) Sumo (1, 2, 3) Square Enix (index) Tokusatsu (index) Trains (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
Search the archives:
V·T·E

No sources at Kei Tomiyama

Hi all. This biographical entry has no sources in the actual biographical prose section of the article. I'm tempted to take it to AFD, but thought I would ask here first.4meter4 (talk) 11:28, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

@4meter4: Space Battleship Yamato is a household name in Japan, and he while I'm not personally familiar with it, his character, Susumu Kodai, appears to be the protagonist. He's also one of only three actors named in the Daijisen entry on Yamato yo Eien ni.[1] Given that we have an article on a fictional character he portrayed, I would say that article should get priority for being AFDed over the article on the real-life actor by whom he was apparently most famously portrayed. Anyway, his birth and death dates, the fact that he was born in "Manchuria", his most notable anime roles, the fact that he also notably provided Japanese dub voices for some western films, and the fact that he released several records including Tomiyama Kei: Myself are all verifiable in the Geinō Jinbutsu Jiten entry.[2] I agree that the article is very poor at the moment (was he born in July or October like Geinō Jinbutsu Jiten says?), but I think the subject is definitely more notable than most stuff that gets kept at AFD. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:24, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I've added a couple refs and organized and expanded the existing refs. I have two more I need to look up when I get home (they are in magazines in storage). There are quite a few references in the Japanese article, and I'm sure many of them could be used here. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:20, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Do all of our emperor of Japan articles have an error in their lead sentences?

As far as I can see, all or nearly all emperor articles have some variation on the traditional order of succession, which refers to the 天皇系図, but order of succession means something else. It's pretty obvious what is meant, and I might be reading too much into this, but do we need to fix this? As far as I can tell, all or nearly all of these (with the obvious exception of the current emperor) were written by Enkyo2/Tenmei/Ansei/probably-some-other-undisclosed-accounts, who did not write very good English and I don't think read Japanese either. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: I'm assuming you mean like these:

Emperor Meiji was the 122nd Emperor of Japan according to the traditional order of succession...

This List of Emperors of Japan presents the traditional order of succession.

I agree it sounds a little off. How do reliable English-language sources phrase the same idea? Fredlesaltique (talk) 08:09, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I dunno... a "line" of succession? Searching GBooks for "Hirohito" "124th" brought up this as the first hit, which apparently reads the 124th direct descendant of the Emperor Jimmu Tenno, which is obviously wrong (aside from the redundancy of "Emperor _____ Tenno", this would make Emperor Jinmu the 1st direct descendant of himself). It's a bit hard to fix because even "traditional" is technically wrong -- the precise numbering wasn't decided until the 1920s (government documents from the late 19th and early 20th centuries are inconsistent), scarcely two decades before it became okay for academics to publicly deny the existence of the early emperors on the list, but this fact is not widely known outside of specialists, who probably see it only as meaning "...but several of the early ones probably never existed". I suspect Wikipedia and others continue to use the numbering primarily because it is officially endorsed by the 宮内庁, so maybe "official" would be better. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:29, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

The Emperor Mutsuhito claimed to be the 122nd of his line[3] is also wrong, since, even aside from the issue that during the Meiji period the accession of Emperor Chōkei was still technically in dispute, it's debatable whether "his line" (which, strictly speaking, is descended from the Northern Court) is the same one that includes the Southern Court emperors who are on the canonical list. "Dynasty" seems like a better word, but it would be difficult to incorporate that into the current Emperor Meiji was the 122nd Emperor of Japan according to the traditional order of succession template. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:03, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I noticed Brittanica in their Meiji Emperor article just says he's the 124th (or whatever) without qualifying it. "Line" sounds better, but I feel like there's a better way to express the same idea. Maybe "124th in the traditional (official?) numbering"? I'll keep an eye out if I see something. So yeah should be changed, just not sure to what. Fredlesaltique (talk) 07:28, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

(Disruptive) moves of Cultural Property (Japan)-related pages

As per the new section heading, thank you, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 20:05, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I have reverted the changes. Here's a list of the pages in question (in alphabetical order):

• Conservation Techniques for Cultural Properties
• Cultural Property (Japan)
• Important Cultural Property (Japan)
• Intangible Cultural Property (Japan)
• List of Cultural Properties of Japan - structures (Okinawa)
• List of Important Cultural Properties of Japan (Asuka period: structures)
• List of Important Cultural Properties of Japan (Heian period: structures)
• List of Important Cultural Properties of Japan (Kamakura period: structures)
• List of Important Cultural Properties of Japan (Nara period: structures)
• List of Important Cultural Properties of Japan (Shōwa period: structures)
• List of Important Intangible Folk Cultural Properties
• List of Important Tangible Folk Cultural Properties
• Living National Treasure (Japan)
• National Treasure (Japan)
• Tangible Cultural Property (Japan)

I think I got them all. Now, we can discuss the desired changes here in order to get consensus for the changes. In the future, major changes like this should be discussed first. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:55, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

@Hijiri88, Goszei, Canterbury Tail, Imaginatorium, Fredlesaltique, つがる, Redfiona99, Marchjuly, Ganbaruby, Geicraftor, Lullabying, and Hoary: to get more eyes on this. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 22:01, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

What is the point of discussion? What's the disagreement? Canterbury Tail talk 22:06, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

@Canterbury Tail: Micga moved all of these titles and reworded the titles in the text of the articles to fit an alternate translation. If you look at the histories of the articles, you can see the specifics. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:04, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Also @Bamse: since he had a lot to do with the creation of all of these (and many more related) articles. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:08, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

And @Urashimataro:, who initially co-authored some of them. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:10, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Well according to the references in the articles, Cultural Property appears to be the official English term used by the Japanese government, so we'd need a real good reason not to use that one. However it does not appear to be a capitalized proper noun and therefore the articles should use lowercase cultural property and moved appropriately. Canterbury Tail talk 23:22, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

• I don't really agree with Canterbury Tail's rationale that we'd need a real good reason not to use the "official name" used by the Japanese government (as someone who's done some "Japanese government" translations and read a lot more... meh, it's not really relevant), but "[C/c]ultural [P/p]ropert[y/ies]" (countable) is how we and probably everyone else translates 文化財; "cultural heritage" corresponds to a different Japanese term, 文化遺産, and "cultural property items" is theoretically okay in different contexts, maybe, but not as the "main" translation. Not sure if there were other different changes. So yeah, bad moves, good reverts. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:44, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Can someone provide a simple summary of what the issue is? As in (1. Original 2. New edit 3. Reversion 4. Reason for reversion). Cheers, Fredlesaltique (talk) 00:56, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

If you click on a few of the links and look at Micga's edits, you'll see why it's kinda difficult to simplify. A recurring issue seems to be changing "property" to "heritage", but it's not always like that. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:01, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

I do recognise Japan’s contributions to the development of legal framework of heritage preservation. However, it is obvious that no encyclopaedia may expect to be treated seriously if it uses the same designations with a completely different meaning, depending on jurisdiction. In spite of the legal definictions in the Japanese act, you cannot simply just ignore the fact the later international legal acts defined the basic legal terms in a completely different meaning, especially taking into account Japan’s adoption of these acts. Of note, a nation acceding to such a treaty would normally adapt English language translations of its vocabulery to the definitions in adopted treaty. Japan’s failure to do so, coupled with the country’s continuous promotion of the English language terms carrying the nationally defined meaning waaaay incompatible with the international one, may represent either neglect or a demonstrantion of cultural supremacy attitude. In the current form, a reader may get acquainted with the article cultural property and learn its international definition according to the Hague convention, only to stumble later upon any of the articles discussed here, without any idea of the much altered terminology meaning (than in the remaider of Wikipedia), as the difference is not vividly stated. Similarily, the term conservation carries a completely different meaning than the usual one. It is confusing, dishonest, against Wikipedia naming conventions, and it also makes the articles (along with the artificial language constructions resulting from literal translation) rather incomprehensible to any other readers than the Japanese or the ones with a prior in-depth knowledge of the Japanese cultural property law - an effect clearly contrary to the principles and aims of an encyclopedia. Therefore, it is necessary either to adapt the terminology to the internationally used one, or - as an alternative - to place in the articles a clear and visible explanation of the differences in the national and international terminologies, preferably with a tabelaric comparison of the principal terms, (e.g. that the internationally defined cultural property corresponds to Japanese Tangible Cultural Property, ot that the Japanese Cultural Properties are roughly similar in scope to internationally defined cultural heritage, albeit with accents in meaning placed differently between both terms, or that even the word property itself is used differently, meaning a single property item in the Japanese usage, or the items in general (their collection) in the international usage. Finally, a simple capitalisation of the term is not clear enough in indicating its usage as Designated Property - for clarification, the word Designated should not be ommited. Micga (talk) 02:08, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Forgive me, but I fail to see what "later international legal acts" have to do with internal Japanese classifications. These aren't about (specifically) UNESCO Hertitage or the like, but what the Japanese government has designated. This isn't about anything international or that international laws and processes have any impact on. Canterbury Tail talk 12:09, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Please read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. I have my own (sometimes quite strong) views on a lot of these matters, and sometimes I disagree with Wikipedia consensus, policies and guidelines, and the majority of reliable sources (especially in cases when Wikipedians limit this to "English-language reliable sources"). But on Wikipedia, I either keep those views to myself or express them in a civil manner while "agreeing to disagree". This is something you must be able to do if you intend to contribute to a collaborative encyclopedia. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:09, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

• I think it's good to be bold, and though the edits were reverted I assume Micga did them in good faith.

I'll stick to one example: 文化財 bunkazai, which is consistently translated in official contexts as "Cultural Property." Keep in mind that this is a common, official English translation.

As far as I know, you are correct; the official government translations have very specific meanings apart from what an unfamiliar reader might expect. For instance, in my understanding most "Cultural Properties" are cultural heritage items if you want to use more familiar English. I would support consistently capitalizing and clarifying the official terms where they are needed so as not to confuse a lay reader.

I think rewording is possible that increases clarity without sacrificing accuracy. I don't have enough time to do a good rewording, but as an idea:

(Original) Living National Treasure (Ningen Kokuhō) is a Japanese popular term for those individuals certified as Preservers of Important Intangible Cultural Properties (重要無形文化財保持者, Jūyō Mukei Bunkazai Hojisha) by the Minister of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology as based on Japan's Law for the Protection of Cultural Properties (文化財保護法, Bunkazai Hogohō).

(Reworded) In Japan, a Living National Treasure (Ningen Kokuhō) is a person legally recognized as critical to preserving cultural heritage or "Important Intangible Cultural Properties" (重要無形文化財保持者, Jūyō Mukei Bunkazai Hojisha) by the Minister of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology. They are designated according to Japan's cultural heritage law, the Law for the Protection of Cultural Properties (文化財保護法, Bunkazai Hogohō).

However, at this point I don't agree with changing the articles titles or of the English translation where it clearly has a standard one (for example, the name of a law).

Hopefully other editors can chime in. Cheers,Fredlesaltique (talk) 03:15, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

That's a valid proposal regarding Living National Treasure (Japan), but I think it goes against your stated intent of clarifying things (and consistently capitalizing "official" terms) so as not to confuse the lay reader, since the Agency for Cultural Affairs marks "人間国宝" itself as an unofficial term for someone with a designated certification ("各個認定の保持者（いわゆる「人間国宝」）") and at least one overseas Japanese embassy has explicitly called it a "通称".[4][5] Most other .go.jp pages I found that use the term seem to give it parenthetically after "重要無形文化財保持者"; I think our current article does a fine job of clarifying the status of the phrase, and while tweaking it is fine, I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. If the above proposal contains a typo and the actual intent is to uncapitalize "living national treasure" to emphasize its status as an unofficial term, that's a whole nother matter, of course. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:41, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

(I should clarify that, at the time I studied abroad in Japan 12 years ago, I did not know this; a teacher who taught one of the traditional Japanese arts classes I was able to enroll in was introduced as a "Living National Treasure", and I was disappointed later when I was unable to find him on any official "list" of these "Living National Treasures"; it was only later that I learned that such a list, while it may exist, would not be like a list of non-living National Treasures, other Important Cultural Properties, the UNESCO World Heritage list, etc. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:47, 15 June 2021 (UTC) )

Yeah it's a pretty rough draft, my point was that you can add context to terms like Cultural Property to make it more legible. Fredlesaltique (talk) 07:19, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

The 10 most-viewed, worst-quality articles according to this Wikiproject

• 90: Nuru (massage) 86,701 2,796 Stub Low
• 201: Akiko Matsuura 55,634 1,794 Stub Low
• 280: Yoshitsugu Matsuoka 46,240 1,491 Stub Low
• 332: Nobunaga Shimazaki 40,471 1,305 Stub Low
• 367: Japan Airlines Flight 351 38,222 1,232 Stub Mid
• 402: Eshima Ohashi Bridge 35,490 1,144 Stub Mid
• 433: Kento Yamazaki 33,670 1,086 Stub Low
• 491: Illusion (company) 30,795 993 Stub Low
• 527: IWGP World Heavyweight Championship 28,959 934 Stub Low
• 544: Yuma Uchida 28,251 911 Stub Low

Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan/Popular pages--Coin945 (talk) 06:50, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

I made improvements to the sourcing of Akiko Matsuura and added some additional content. Netherzone (talk) 22:28, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Template talk:Nihongo about kerning and CSS

 You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Nihongo § Template-protected edit request on 7 June 2021 — Kerning issues. — Goszei (talk) 00:18, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Reaching out a second time, since there is little participation (only 4 editors so far) for this wide-reaching and highly-visible change. Discussion has now turned to whether the currently-live implementation (applying a 0.2em margin around parenthesis for certain letter-based cases in the Nihongo template) should be reverted, kept, or modified. — Goszei (talk) 01:18, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Entry for Kabukichō Ichiban-gai?

Kabukichō Ichiban-gai

Should Wikipedia have an entry for Kabukichō Ichiban-gai?

If so, here's a stub for future expansion, which has been redirected for now.

Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 00:36, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

FAR for Shadow of the Colossus

I have nominated Shadow of the Colossus for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. (t · c) buidhe 03:23, 26 June 2021 (UTC)