2015-07-31 - (Bettman, Gary Bettman) Final REDACTED - Condensed

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order - Deposition of Gary Bettman - 7/31/2015
In Re: National Hockey League Players' Concussion Injury Litigation
Page 1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA
3
4 IN RE: NATIONAL HOCKEY
5 LEAGUE PLAYERS' CONCUSSION MDL No. 14-2551
(SRN/JSM)
6 INJURY LITIGATION
7 -------------------------------
8
9
10 CONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
11 VIDEOTAPED
12 DEPOSITION OF GARY BETTMAN
13 New York, New York
14 Friday, July 31, 2015
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24 Reported by:
FRANCIS X. FREDERICK, CSR, RPR, RMR
25 JOB NO. 95766
Benchmark Reporting Agency

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 1 ------------------ EXHIBITS ------------------
2 2 BETTMAN FOR ID.
3 SILVERMAN THOMPSON SLUTKIN WHITE LLC 3 Exhibit 4
4 Attorneys for Plaintiffs 4 document headed Concussions
5 201 North Charles Street - 26th floor 5 in the National Hockey League
6 Baltimore, Maryland 21201 6 NHL General mangers' Meeting
7 BY: STEPHEN G. GRYGIEL, ESQ. 7 March 2011 bearing production
8 - and - 8 numbers NHL0200272
9 ZELLE HOFFMAN VOELBEL & MASON LLP 9 through NHL0200366...................... 80
10 Attorneys for Plaintiffs 10 Exhibit 5
11 500 Washington Avenue South, Suite 4000 11 e-mail dated 4/10/2011
12 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55414-1152 12 bearing production numbers
13 BY: MICHAEL R. CASHMAN, ESQ. 13 NHL0516458 through NHL0516459........... 87
14 14 Exhibit 6
15 SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP 15 e-mail dated 5/9/2011 bearing
16 Attorneys for the National Hockey League 16 production number NHL0276442............ 93
17 and the Witness 17 Exhibit 7
18 Four Times Square 18 Minutes of the Meeting of the
19 New York, New York 10036 19 General Managers The Langham
20 BY: SHEPARD GOLDFEIN, ESQ. 20 Hotel - Boston MA June 8, 2011
21 JAMES A. KEYTE, ESQ. 21 bearing production numbers
22 MICHAEL MENITOVE, ESQ 22 NHL0035098 through NHL0035107........... 99
23 23
24 ALSO PRESENT: 24
25 DALE SWINDELL, Certified Legal Video Specialist 25
Page 3 Page 5
1 ----------------- I N D E X ------------------ 1 ------------------ EXHIBITS ------------------
2 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE 2 BETTMAN FOR ID.
3 GARY BETTMAN MR. GRYGIEL 16 3 Exhibit 8
4 4 e-mail dated 11/10/2011
5 ------------------ EXHIBITS ------------------ 5 bearing production numbers
6 BETTMAN FOR ID. 6 NHL0035193 through NHL0035194........... 107
7 Exhibit 1 7 Exhibit 9
8 Minutes of the Meeting of the 8 e-mail dated 1/6/2012
9 General Managers Held at the 9 bearing production numbers
10 LaQuinta Hotel Palms Springs, 10 NHL0094230 through NHL0094232........... 111
11 CA February 1-3, 1999 bearing 11 Exhibit 10
12 production numbers NHL0211387 12 document bearing production
13 through NHL0211394...................... 40 13 numbers IM000589 through IM000603....... 137
15 e-mail dated 3/8/2011 15 e-mail dated 12/9/2011
16 bearing production numbers 16 bearing production numbers
17 NHL0231896 through NHL0231897........... 57 17 NHL0026415 through NHL0026416........... 146
19 Minutes of the Meeting of the 19 e-mail dated 9/24/2007
20 General Managers Held at Boca 20 bearing production numbers
21 Beach Club - Boca Raton, Florida 21 NHL2197608 through NHL2197617........... 177
22 March 14-16, 2011 bearing 22 Exhibit 13
23 production numbers NHL0155335 23 NHL Neuropsychological Testing
24 through NHL0155359...................... 68 24 Project Status Report - 1997-2002
25 25 December 10, 2002....................... 187

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1 ------------------ EXHIBITS ------------------ 1 ----------------- EXHIBITS ------------------
2 BETTMAN FOR ID. 2 BETTMAN FOR ID.
4 Clinical Practice Guidelines 4 Hits to the Head Analysis
5 on Concussion Treatment and 5 General Mangers' Meeting
6 Management in Sport..................... 193 6 March 8, 2010 bearing
7 Exhibit 15 7 production numbers
8 Memorandum dated 8 NHL0120323 through NHL0120384.......... 295
9 September 1, 2011 bearing 9 Exhibit 26
10 production numbers NHL0090546 10 e-mail dated 9/26/2013
11 through NHL0030547...................... 204 11 bearing production numbers
12 Exhibit 16 12 NHL2339143 through NHL2339227.......... 318
13 Minutes of the Meeting of the 13 Exhibit 27
14 General Managers Boca Beach 14 e-mail dated 12/2/2011
15 Club - Boca Raton, Florida 15 bearing production numbers
16 March 8-10, 2010........................ 212 16 NHL0115693 through NHL0115720.......... 327
18 Minutes of the Meeting of the 18 fax dated August 22, 2003
19 General Managers Ritz Carlton 19 bearing production numbers
20 Golf Resort - Naples, Florida 20 NHL1353432 through NHL1353444.......... 342
21 March 9-11, 2009........................ 230 21 Exhibit 29
22 Exhibit 18 22 letter dated August 27, 2003
23 e-mail dated 1/9/2008 23 bearing production numbers
24 bearing production numbers 24 NHL0119821 through NHL0119827.......... 344
25 NHL0025551 through NHL00025552.......... 239 25
Page 7 Page 9
1 ------------------ EXHIBITS ------------------ 1 ----------------- EXHIBITS ------------------
8 e-mail dated 9/2/2011 bearing 8 e-mail dated 8/3/2011
9 production number NHL0034241............ 247 9 bearing production numbers
10 Exhibit 21 10 NHL0026287 through NHL0026288........... 361
11 e-mail dated 9/3/2011 11 Exhibit 32
12 bearing production numbers 12 e-mail dated 10/30/2011
13 NHL0129063 through NHL0129064........... 255 13 bearing production numbers
17 NHL0155220 through 0155221.............. 263 17 bearing production numbers
19 e-mail dated 9/3/2011 bearing 19 Exhibit 34
20 production numbers NHL0129605 20 e-mail dated 8/22/2013
21 through NHL0129607..................... 273 21 bearing production numbers
23 e-mail dated 12/4/2009 23
24 bearing production numbers 24
25 NHL0025789 through NHL0025791.......... 287 25

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1 ----------------- EXHIBITS ------------------ 1 ----------------- EXHIBITS ------------------
4 e-mail dated 11/2/2013 4 NHL Position Paper bearing
5 bearing production numbers 5 production numbers
8 e-mail dated 3/12/2007 8 letter dated September 24, 1998
13 bearing production number NHL0027620.... 408 13 bearing production numbers
20 bearing production numbers 20 e-mail dated 1/12/2009 bearing
21 NHL0032990 through NHL0032991........... 415 21 production number NHL0031371............ 471
22 Exhibit 40 22
23 e-mail dated 3/1/2011 23
24 bearing production numbers 24
25 NHL0027146 through NHL0026147........... 420 25
Page 11 Page 13
1 ----------------- EXHIBITS ------------------ 1 ----------------- EXHIBITS ------------------
4 letter dated August 29, 1974 4 Fighting Analysis General
5 bearing production numbers 5 Managers' Meeting - March 9,
6 NHL0127373 through NHL0127374........... 426 6 2009 bearing production numbers
8 letter dated March 20, 1975 8 Exhibit 52
9 bearing production numbers 9 document headed Fighting
12 memorandum dated February 27, 12 Exhibit 53
13 1989 bearing production numbers 13 e-mail dated 3/13/2010
14 NHL0015789 through NHL0015791........... 433 14 bearing production number NHL0032435.... 486
16 draft mission statement dated 16 e-mail dated 1/26/2011
17 March 9, 1989 bearing production 17 bearing production numbers
18 numbers NHL0015795 18 NHL0033467 through NHL0033468........... 490
19 through NHL0015799...................... 440 19 Exhibit 55
20 Exhibit 45 20 e-mail dated 1/26/2011 bearing
21 document bearing production 21 production number NHL0490748............ 493
22 numbers NHL0020586 22 Exhibit 56
23 through NHL0020588...................... 441 23 e-mail dated 11/13/2011 bearing
24 24 production number NHL1060781............ 495
25 25

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1 ----------------- EXHIBITS ------------------ 1 for the NHL.
2 BETTMAN FOR ID. 2 MR. GOLDFEIN: Shep Goldfein for
3 Exhibit 57 3 the National Hockey League and the
4 Concussion Report General 4 Commissioner, Gary Bettman.
5 Managers March 12-13, 2012 5 MR. BETTMAN: Gary Bettman.
6 bearing production numbers 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The reporter
7 NHL0035749 through NHL0035788........... 496 7 will now swear in the witness.
8 Exhibit 58 8 ***
9 e-mail dated 4/15/2013 9 GARY B E T T M A N, called as a
10 bearing production numbers 10 witness, having been duly sworn by a
11 NHL0129248 through NHL0129269........... 498 11 Notary Public, was examined and
12 Exhibit 59 12 testified as follows:
13 document headed National 13 EXAMINATION BY
14 Headache League bearing 14 MR. GRYGIEL:
15 production numbers 15 Q. Good morning, Commissioner.
16 NHL0208920 through NHL0208924........... 500 16 A. Good morning.
17 17 Q. Now, I know you're a lawyer so we
18 18 won't belabor the formalities here. You were
19 19 at Cornell undergrad, correct?
20 20 A. Yes.
21 21 Q. And you studied in the School of
22 22 Industrial Labor Relations?
23 23 A. Yes.
24 24 Q. And you took a degree there,
25 25 didn't you?
Page 15 Page 17
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the 1 A. Yes, I did.
2 videotaped deposition of Gary Bettman 2 Q. And after that you went to law
3 taken by Steven Grygiel of the law firm 3 school?
4 Silverman, Thompson, Slutkin & White in 4 A. Yes.
5 the matter In Re. National Hockey League 5 Q. And graduated in 1990 -- 1977?
6 Players' Concussion Injury Litigation. 6 A. Correct.
7 This deposition is being held at 4 7 Q. And that was from NYU?
8 Times Square, New York, New York, July 8 A. Correct.
9 31st, 2015. The court reporter is 9 Q. And then you went to work at
10 Francis Frederick. And I am Dale 10 Proskauer Rose, didn't you?
11 Swindell, the videographer. We're both 11 A. Yes, I did.
12 from the firm of Benchmark Reporting 12 Q. And after that you went to work
13 Agency, Minneapolis, Minnesota. 13 for a litigation firm in New Jersey.
14 We're going on the record at 9:57 14 A. I'm not sure it was a litigation
15 a.m. 15 firm, but it was a smaller firm in New Jersey.
16 Counsel will please state their 16 Q. And after that you went to the
17 appearances for the record. 17 National Basketball Association.
18 MR. GRYGIEL: Good morning. Steve 18 A. Correct.
19 Grygiel from Silverman Thompson for the 19 Q. And you were working under David
20 Plaintiffs. 20 Stern in the Commissioner's office, weren't
21 MR. CASHMAN: Good morning. 21 you?
22 Michael Cashman for the Plaintiffs. 22 A. Correct.
23 MR. KEYTE: James Keyte for the 23 Q. And then after that you ended up
24 NHL. 24 going to the National Hockey League, correct?
25 MR. MENITOVE: Michael Menitove 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. And you were elected in 1992 in 1 the NBA you didn't have any exposure to
2 December to the post of Commissioner? 2 studies that discussed the long-term sequelae
3 A. Correct. 3 of concussions for National Basketball
4 Q. And in 1993 you formally assumed 4 Association players.
5 your duties, correct? 5 MR. GOLDFEIN: I'll object to the
6 A. February 1st. 6 form of the question. It's lacking
7 Q. You're familiar with the 7 foundation.
8 deposition process obviously. 8 A. Long-term sequelae?
9 A. Yes. 9 Q. Sure.
10 Q. You've taken depositions in the 10 A. You'll have to define that for me.
11 past. 11 Q. Okay. When I say "long-term
12 A. Taken or had them taken. 12 sequelae" I'm trying to imitate the doctors
13 Q. Right. So you're familiar with 13 who have educated us about this. What I
14 the process. 14 really mean are the long-term effects that
15 A. Yes. 15 appear later in life.
16 Q. Are you taking any medications 16 A. I have no --
17 today, Commissioner, that would be an 17 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection -- just
18 impediment to your ability to recall events of 18 one second. I object to the form of the
19 the past? 19 question. Lacks foundation.
20 A. No. 20 Q. What was your answer, sir?
21 Q. And you're not aware of any 21 A. Can you ask the question again,
22 impediments to your ability to testify 22 please?
23 truthfully today, are you? 23 MR. GRYGIEL: Can you read it
24 A. No. 24 back, Francis.
25 Q. Now, when you were in private 25 (Record read.)
Page 19 Page 21
1 practice, did you have any experience with 1 Q. Why don't I start again and maybe
2 concussion litigation of any kind? 2 we could save time.
3 A. Not that I recall. 3 MR. GOLDFEIN: It might be --
4 Q. So, to be clear, you don't recall 4 A. It's up to you.
5 ever handling a case that involved a claim by 5 Q. I'll start again.
6 a plaintiff for injuries resulting from a 6 When you were working at the NBA,
7 concussion. 7 Commissioner, you weren't exposed to any
8 A. I'm thinking, because we're going 8 studies that discussed the long-term effects
9 back more than 30 years. I don't believe so. 9 of concussions for purposes of analyzing
10 Q. And when you were at the National 10 National Basketball Association players.
11 Basketball Association you didn't have any 11 A. Not that I recall.
12 responsibilities for studying concussions in 12 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection.
13 the NBA, did you? 13 Commissioner, let me object
14 A. I don't believe so. 14 when --
15 Q. And you didn't handle any 15 THE WITNESS: Please.
16 litigation for the NBA that dealt with 16 MR. GOLDFEIN: Give me a second.
17 concussions brought by players, correct? 17 THE WITNESS: I didn't know you
18 A. I believe that's correct. 18 were objecting.
19 Q. And when you worked for the NBA, 19 MR. GOLDFEIN: I was objecting.
20 you didn't have any involvement at all in 20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
21 studying the question of the exposure of 21 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
22 National Basketball Association players to the 22 Q. So it's fair to say that when you
23 risks of concussions, did you? 23 came to the National Hockey League, assuming
24 A. I believe that's correct. 24 your duties in 1993, the issue of concussions
25 Q. And, of course, when you were at 25 and their long-term effects wasn't something

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1 with which you had experience professionally. 1 Q. But you don't have any memory
2 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 2 today, sitting here in this chair, that that
3 of the question as lacking foundation. 3 was an issue you paid any attention to.
4 A. I don't believe prior to coming to 4 A. I don't recall one way or the
5 the NHL I had any experience at a professional 5 other.
6 level of dealing with concussions. 6 Q. When you joined the National
7 Q. Had you any experience at a 7 Hockey League, was there a medical advisory
8 personal level, for example, a personal 8 group of any kind that the Commissioner would
9 interest in the issue? 9 rely on for purposes of getting information
10 A. At the time, I don't believe so. 10 about injuries?
11 Q. Had you done any reading about 11 A. I seem to recall that the
12 concussions when you joined the National 12 physicians as a group would get together. How
13 Hockey League? 13 formal it was, I don't recall.
14 A. Do you have a time frame for that 14 Q. Was there a formal mechanism by
15 question? 15 which the National Hockey League physicians
16 Q. Sure. 1992, 1993. 16 reported on issues to the Commissioner on any
17 A. I don't believe so. 17 basis whatsoever, temporal or substantive?
18 Q. When you joined the National 18 MR. GOLDFEIN: Time period,
19 Hockey League did you have any discussions 19 please.
20 with any of your predecessors, let's start 20 MR. GRYGIEL: Sure. Right after
21 with Gil Stein, concerning the issue of 21 he joined the National Hockey League.
22 concussions in the National Hockey League? 22 A. I believe that when the physicians
23 A. I don't recall. 23 met as a group there would be communication
24 Q. Do you recall any discussions with 24 where they would advise the League office as
25 Mr. Zeigler concerning concussions in the 25 to what their agenda is and what they were
Page 23 Page 25
1 National Hockey League? 1 doing. I don't remember exactly how formal
2 A. Not that I recall. 2 that process was.
3 Q. Did you have any discussions with 3 But I do believe there was some
4 anyone else in the National Hockey League's 4 interaction and I may have even attended a
5 executive offices at that time concerning the 5 couple of meetings as the new guy in town.
6 issue of concussions? 6 Q. Okay. Do you remember from the
7 A. Not that I recall. 7 first year of joining the National Hockey
8 Q. Same time frame, Commissioner. 8 League any of those meetings dealing with
9 1992/1993, right after you joined, did you 9 concussions?
10 have any discussions with anyone in the 10 A. Not specifically.
11 National Hockey League executive office about 11 Q. And I take it you don't remember
12 whether or not concussions had long-term 12 any of those meetings in your first years
13 effects later in life? 13 dealing with the issue of aftereffects of
14 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 14 concussions.
15 of the question. 15 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
16 A. No. 16 of the question.
17 Q. It's fair to say that in your 17 A. I don't believe so.
18 first months on the job, the issue of 18 Q. And to be more precise, in this
19 concussions and their aftereffects wasn't 19 first year after you the joined the League you
20 something you were focused on. 20 don't recall any of those meetings dealing
21 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 21 with the issue of what is called
22 of the question. 22 "post-concussion syndrome."
23 A. I was focused on a lot of things 23 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
24 at that time. I can't tell you with certainty 24 of the question.
25 what I was and wasn't focused on 23 years ago. 25 A. I don't recall. You'd have to

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1 refresh my recollection if there was. 1 A. Not that I recall.
2 Q. Was there any particular medical 2 Q. Did Dr. Meeuwisse ever discuss
3 person in any of the clubs that you relied on 3 with you the issue of long-term effects of
4 in the first couple of years, say the first 4 concussions?
5 three years of your duties, for information 5 A. I don't have a specific
6 about player injuries? 6 recollection of that.
7 A. The problem I have with the 7 Q. Did Dr. Meeuwisse ever discuss
8 question is when you say any particular 8 with you the issue of long-term effects of
9 person. I tend to try and have an open-door 9 concussions?
10 policy and communicate and get information as 10 A. Didn't you just ask me that?
11 broadly as I can. I believe the head of the 11 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Dr. Mulder.
12 doctors' group at the time may have been Chip 12 A. Not that I recall.
13 Burke from Pittsburgh. I'm not a hundred 13 Q. That'll happen more than once
14 percent certain. Dr. Mulder in Montreal has 14 today and I apologize in advance.
15 always been a long-respected physician. 15 A. It's not a problem.
16 So in the course of my dealings 16 Q. When you joined the National
17 and being introduced to the personnel 17 Hockey League in 1993, did you become aware of
18 throughout the NHL, I'm sure I bumped into and 18 any underway effort by anyone at the National
19 had some conversations with some doctors, but 19 Hockey League executive offices looking at
20 I don't have a specific recollection because, 20 rules for purposes of reducing hits to the
21 as we said, it was 23 years ago. 21 head?
22 Q. Okay. Coming forward in time from 22 A. At that time frame?
23 those 23 years ago to today, is there any 23 Q. Right.
24 particular doctor affiliated with a National 24 A. Not that I recall.
25 Hockey League team that you can recall 25 Q. Were there any less formal, say,
Page 27 Page 29
1 discussing the issue of concussions with? 1 discussion groups at the executive offices
2 A. Well, from an NHL team -- at times 2 looking at the question of hits to the head in
3 I've had conversations with Chip Burke. And 3 1993?
4 there may have been other doctors as well, 4 A. Again, not that I recall.
5 team doctors. 5 Q. Same question with respect to the
6 I mean, obviously, there have been 6 time period 1993, Commissioner, through 1996.
7 other doctors that I've discussed concussions 7 A. I'm not exactly sure of the time
8 with. But team doctors, Chip Burke most 8 frame, but somewhere in the mid to late '90s
9 notably comes to mind. 9 the issue of concussions and head contact was
10 Q. Is there any other doctor that 10 coming to the forefront. But I can't fix an
11 most notably comes to mind perhaps simply 11 exact time on that.
12 subordinate to your memory of Dr. Burke? 12 Q. If I suggest to you it was
13 A. You mean from a team. 13 approximately 1996, does that sound about
14 Q. Yeah. 14 right to you?
15 A. Dr. Meeuwisse. At various points 15 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
16 in time Dr. Mulder. And there may have been 16 of the question as leading and
17 others. I don't have a specific recollection 17 suggestive in light of the testimony.
18 because I can't recall any specific 18 A. I have a vague recollection, which
19 conversation without having my memory jogged. 19 is nothing more than a vague recollection,
20 Q. Keeping in mind we're talking 20 that at one of the physicians' meetings, there
21 about Dr. Burke now, from the time you joined 21 may have been something that began to focus on
22 the League, Commissioner, coming forward, did 22 the issue and it came to my attention.
23 Dr. Burke ever discuss with you specifically 23 Q. I'm going to hold that as a marker
24 the question of the long-term effects of 24 for a minute and just go back to the time
25 concussions? 25 period when you joined the League coming

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1 forward. 1 A. Not that I recall.
2 Did you find any files when you 2 Q. So at that time --
3 first joined the League that dealt with the 3 A. And I will just add, I didn't go
4 tracking of injuries by any category at all, 4 through all the files. I mean, there were
5 player, club, or area of the body that was 5 other people who had responsibilities. So,
6 injured? 6 you know, as a commissioner or a CEO, you tend
7 A. Not to make light of your 7 to operate at 10,000 feet, not necessarily at
8 question, you could have ended with "did you 8 ground level, so I didn't go through the file
9 find any files." 9 room.
10 Q. I think I now have my answer. 10 But, as I indicated, I don't have
11 A. There wasn't much. 11 any recollection of the files along the nature
12 Q. So you didn't find anything in the 12 that you just asked me.
13 way of -- 13 Q. As an aside, it will be probably
14 A. No. 14 draw an objection, one of the reasons I admire
15 Q. -- a previous -- a previous 15 you, Commissioner, is it seems you've been
16 officer or president of the League having 16 able to operate at 10,000 feet and at the
17 looked at any of the issues of concussions and 17 granular level, which is why some of these
18 their long-term effects? 18 questions are what they are.
19 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 19 A. You have to pick your spots.
20 of the question. 20 Q. Right. When you joined the League
21 A. Certainly -- well, I have no 21 in 19 --
22 specific recollection of seeing any such 22 A. I'm not sure why you picked up
23 files. I do recall there was a dearth of 23 that book and said that though.
24 files. 24 Q. We can talk about that later.
25 Q. And you don't remember any 25 From 1993 through 1996, did you
Page 31 Page 33
1 injury-specific files. 1 find any evidence anywhere in the National
2 A. No, I don't. 2 Hockey League executive offices or files that
3 Q. And you don't remember any 3 the League was looking at focusing on reducing
4 proposal -- 4 head hits?
5 A. And I'm not making light of this. 5 A. I have no recollection of that.
6 It's just the way you asked the question and 6 Q. And you don't recall anything in
7 thinking about what I inherited at the time. 7 the period 1993 through 1996 that showed that
8 Q. I understand. 8 the National Hockey League was focusing on
9 So I take it you didn't see 9 reducing concussions.
10 anything in the way of a file for proposed 10 A. Well, again, when we talk about
11 studies of player health. 11 '93-96, somewhere around '96 -- so I don't
12 A. No. 12 know if your question includes '96 or excludes
13 Q. And you didn't see anything 13 '96 -- I believe the physicians at a meeting,
14 suggesting the National Hockey League at the 14 at least from my recollection, had something
15 executive level was looking at surveying 15 to say about the issue of concussions. It
16 retired players to determine whether or not 16 could have been early '96. Conceivably could
17 they were in good health. 17 have been '95. Could have been '97. And,
18 A. Not that I recall. 18 again, I don't know if your question included
19 Q. As you stated, there was a dearth 19 or excluded '96, but somewhere in that time
20 of files meaning not many. 20 frame I believe.
21 A. Some, but not many. 21 Q. At the time you joined the League,
22 Q. And none dealt with player health. 22 Commissioner, had you ever previously looked
23 A. Not that I recall. 23 at the NHL rule book?
24 Q. And none dealt with retiree 24 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection. I'm not
25 health. 25 sure I understand the question. Before

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1 he joined the League? 1 (Pause on the record.)
2 MR. GRYGIEL: Yeah. 2 A. I don't remember. I believe there
3 MR. GOLDFEIN: When he was at the 3 were five owners. Maybe Abe Pollin. My guess
4 NBA? 4 is that if you go to the board minutes where I
5 MR. GRYGIEL: Yeah. 5 was elected you will -- or board minutes prior
6 MR. GOLDFEIN: At the NHL rule 6 to when I was elected you'll find out who it
7 book. 7 was.
8 MR. GRYGIEL: Yeah. 8 Q. With those names in mind,
9 MR. GOLDFEIN: Okay. 9 Commissioner, does that refresh your memory of
10 A. I assume so. 10 any of them asking you a question of what your
11 Q. Okay. When you interviewed for 11 position was on fighting in the National
12 the job as Commissioner of the National Hockey 12 Hockey League?
13 League, had you reviewed the rule book, being 13 A. I don't believe so.
14 the careful lawyer that you are, in order to 14 Q. Did any of them, to your
15 answer questions? 15 recollection, ask you questions about whether
16 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the 16 you would be in favor or against additional
17 form of the question. 17 rules concerning hits to the head?
18 A. I was a hockey fan. I was 18 A. I have no recollection of them
19 familiar with the game as a fan. I didn't, 19 asking me that.
20 when I joined the League, have the rule book 20 Q. At the time you joined the League
21 committed to memory. 21 in 1993, you were aware there was no specific
22 Q. Were you familiar with its general 22 rule dealing with hits to the head, correct?
23 contours? 23 A. Well, it depends on how you define
24 A. As a fan might be. 24 that.
25 Q. When you were interviewing for the 25 Q. There was no rule, for example,
Page 35 Page 37
1 job as commissioner, were you asked what you 1 that was titled Hits to the Head and then had
2 thought about fighting in the National Hockey 2 subtext underneath it.
3 League? 3 A. But, obviously, if you charge and
4 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 4 leave your feet, if you elbow to the head.
5 of the question. 5 So, I mean, there were rules that dealt with
6 A. I have no recollection of that. 6 certain types of contact that were illegal.
7 Q. Who interviewed you for the job, 7 Was there a rule that actually said "hits to
8 sir? 8 the head," not that I recall.
9 A. Well, there was a search firm that 9 Q. Am I right, Commissioner, that the
10 went through two phases of interviews. And 10 first National Hockey League rule in your
11 then there was a search committee of owners 11 tenure that dealt specifically in nomenclature
12 who conducted the final interview and made the 12 with hits to the head was Rule 48 in 2010?
13 recommendation to the Board. That committee 13 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
14 consisted of -- I'm not a hundred percent 14 of the question.
15 certain about this and I know there must be 15 A. Rule 48 clearly dealt with hits to
16 records. Mike Ilitch. Peter Pocklington. 16 the head. Both in its original form and as it
17 Bruce McNaul. Possibly Ed Snider, but I'm not 17 evolved. If you're asking me to go back in
18 a hundred percent sure. 18 our roughly 95-, -6-year history, I don't -- I
19 I'm running through the clubs. 19 can't tell you what the rule book said
20 That's why I'm taking the time to do this. 20 throughout in that regard. The document
21 Q. Okay. 21 obviously -- the documents, would obviously
22 A. Did I say Peter Pocklington? 22 speak for themselves.
23 Q. Yes, you did. 23 Q. I'm only asking, Commissioner,
24 A. I'm not a hundred percent sure 24 though, during your tenure, 1993 through 2010.
25 about him, either. 25 Let's take that time period. Are you aware of

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1 any other rules in that time period that were 1 to the enactment of Rule 48. I'm not sure as
2 adopted and put into the rule book at the 2 I sit here today I have the calendar in my
3 National Hockey League dealing specifically 3 head that tells you exactly when it became
4 with hits to the head? 4 more of a front-burner issue. But I do seem
5 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the 5 to recall that in the '90s -- not just in the
6 form -- 6 NHL, everywhere in sports and in the medical
7 Q. Other than Rule 48. 7 community, there was more of a focus on
8 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 8 concussions than perhaps there was before.
9 of the question. 9 Q. In 1996, Commissioner, the
10 A. Perhaps I can simplify things. 10 National Hockey League Physician Society
11 Rule 48 was intended to deal with 11 proposed that a study be done in terms of
12 hits to the head and that was a rule change 12 gathering data and analyzing concussions in
13 based on what we believe the rules were at the 13 the National Hockey League. Do you recall
14 time. 14 that?
15 Q. And was that the culmination of 15 MR. GOLDFEIN: I'm going to object
16 many years of discussion? 16 to the form of the question.
17 A. Well, I'm not sure if you and I 17 THE WITNESS: Read back the
18 would agree on what the word "many" means, but 18 question, please.
19 it required discussion and consideration and 19 (Record read.)
20 debate. 20 A. Well, there are two things. One,
21 Q. If I give you a time frame, "many" 21 as we discussed previously, I think I
22 meaning since 1996 through 2010, can we agree 22 indicated that somewhere around '96 the
23 that that was many years of discussion that 23 doctors had started to focus on concussions.
24 led to Rule 48? 24 I'm not sure I buy into your phraseology in
25 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the 25 terms of gathering data. I think it was a
Page 39 Page 41
1 form of the question. 1 topic, at least my recollection is, that we
2 A. I'm not sure that I would agree 2 needed to focus on more, because there was, if
3 that 1996 was necessarily a pivotal point on 3 my recollection is correct, discussion about
4 that. As I'm sure you know, we spent a fair 4 having an understanding of how to diagnose
5 number of years -- and "we" I don't mean just 5 concussions, what return-to-play decisions
6 the League, I'm talking about the constituent 6 were because the state of medicine at that
7 groups, especially including the Players' 7 time was fairly uncertain and I think the
8 Association on behalf of the players, we were 8 doctors, as a group, were looking for some
9 trying to get a handle on the issue of 9 guidance so there was some consistency.
10 concussions. 10 Q. Do you remember, sitting here
11 And we were basically trying to be 11 today here now, Commissioner, whether any
12 as diligent as possible understanding what may 12 particular event spurred this study?
13 have been causing concussions in certain 13 A. In '96?
14 instances. And so you don't make up rules as 14 Q. Right.
15 you go along. I'm not fond of that. If 15 A. Well, I'm not sure -- when you say
16 you're going to change a rule or impose a rule 16 "spurred this study," you're assuming that a
17 you should have a good reason or believe you 17 study actually started at that particular
18 have a good reason for doing it, understanding 18 moment that spurred the focus.
19 what the consequences may be of imposing a 19 As I sit here today, I don't
20 rule change. 20 remember in '96 anything in particular, other
21 Q. So that I'm clear in 21 than I have a general sense that concussions
22 understanding, there was a period of time 22 in sports and concussions in the medical
23 beginning in approximately 1996 where 23 community was becoming more a central focus.
24 concussions became more of a focus. 24 Q. So no particular injury to any NHL
25 A. There was a period of time prior 25 player spurred this new focus on the National

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1 Hockey League. 1 funding in terms of dollars any of this study
2 A. Not that I recall. 2 that the Physicians' Society had proposed?
3 Q. And you don't recall any 3 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
4 particular concern voiced by any member of the 4 of the question.
5 Board of Governors that spurred this new 5 A. Well, I don't know at that time we
6 particular focus. 6 were yet funding anything. At some point we
7 A. I don't recall that as I sit here 7 hired somebody to do work for us, paid
8 today. 8 consultants, and that would be things that we
9 Q. And you don't remember any member 9 would do. And it's something that we would do
10 of the Board of Governors saying -- or the 10 while they might not pay for our people in
11 general managers saying, Hey, we have a 11 conjunction with the Players' Association
12 problem with concussions, let's get a better 12 because I think actually they hired their own
13 handle on it. 13 consultants as well.
14 A. I don't recall following through 14 Q. Did the National Hockey League at
15 like that. 15 the outset of the study supply any dedicated
16 Q. Did you have a role, Commissioner, 16 personnel to the project?
17 that you can describe with respect to this 17 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
18 focus that the National Hockey League 18 of the question.
19 Physician Society was talking about? 19 A. Well, there have always been
20 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection. I 20 liaison. Dedicated, if you mean a full-time
21 didn't hear, Steve. I'm sorry. 21 person who's full time on this --
22 MR. GRYGIEL: That's okay. 22 Q. Right.
23 MR. GOLDFEIN: Was it role did you 23 A. -- the answer is I don't recall
24 say? 24 that we did that. But I've had people who are
25 MR. GRYGIEL: Yeah. 25 responsible as part of their daily responsible
Page 43 Page 45
1 MR. GOLDFEIN: Okay. I heard rule 1 for dealing with the health and safety issues,
2 or role. 2 interfacing with the physicians, with the
3 THE WITNESS: Are you still 3 trainers, with the various study groups that,
4 objecting? 4 you know -- the Injury Analysis Panel, which
5 MR. GOLDFEIN: No. You can go 5 ultimately came to be. The Concussion Working
6 ahead. 6 Group. I have staff whose responsibility is
7 THE WITNESS: Would you read back 7 to do that. It's not a full-time job,
8 the question as to the role. 8 although it may be and they just do more than
9 (Record read.) 9 a full-time job. They have other
10 A. I want to explain this as 10 responsibilities.
11 accurately as possible. If we talk about 11 Q. Julie Grand was someone who worked
12 role, as Commissioner you focus on things as a 12 in this liaison --
13 CEO or CEO level. To the extent that the 13 A. That's who I had in mind when I
14 doctors were looking for, if they were, 14 was answering your question.
15 resource, assets, staff, involvement from the 15 Q. And to some extent, perhaps a
16 League, financial ability to do things, 16 lesser extent, Mr. Daly as well.
17 retention of people, that would be something 17 A. Yes. I mean --
18 that they would ask me for. 18 Q. Can you identify anybody else,
19 So was it a formal reporting 19 Commissioner?
20 structure like somebody who actually worked 20 A. Those would be the two principal
21 for me, no. But was there communication and 21 people that come to mind from the League
22 interplay between the League office including 22 office. And they're -- particularly Julie is
23 me and the Physicians' Group, the answer is 23 very actively involved in this subject.
24 yes. Which is why on occasion I'd go visit. 24 Q. So if I were interested in asking
25 Q. Was the National Hockey League 25 questions about the working, for example, of

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1 the Concussion Working Group, Julie Grand 1 written documents?
2 would be the right person to ask? 2 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
3 A. The specifics of what happens at 3 of the question.
4 every meeting and the evolution of things, she 4 A. I would get the statistical
5 would be your person. 5 analyses that were done, either seasonally or
6 Q. And she would also be my person if 6 semi-seasonally, whatever, because I was
7 I asked questions about the Injury Analysis 7 interested in the data on injuries. And that
8 Panel. 8 injury was being compiled.
9 A. I think so, but you would have to 9 I would either see in advance or
10 ask her that. 10 at the time the reports that were made to the
11 Q. Okay. I take it it's not you. 11 various constituencies, whether it was the
12 A. That would be correct. As I said 12 Competition Committee or the general managers
13 before, while we zoom in on some issues 13 of the board.
14 occasionally, we do things more at 10,000 feet 14 But for the most part -- I think
15 as any CEO. 15 for the most part, the reports would be more
16 Q. Did you discuss with anyone when 16 oral. What's going on, what's the status,
17 the studies began, actually began in 1997, did 17 what's happening. That type of thing.
18 you discuss with anyone whether the National 18 Q. Did you, Commissioner, see drafts
19 Hockey League would put financial support 19 of any written reports that the Concussion
20 behind this study? 20 Working Group was working on?
21 A. I assume -- I assume we did. How 21 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the
22 we got to that point, I don't recall. My 22 form of the question.
23 guess is I was asked and I said of course. 23 A. Not that I recall.
24 Q. Do you remember the level of 24 Q. Did you see any articles in draft
25 magnitude, how much money the NHL was 25 form that were going to be the result of the
Page 47 Page 49
1 spending? 1 Concussion Working Group's efforts?
2 A. No, I don't. No. 2 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
3 Q. Okay. Did the NHL commit any 3 of the question.
4 administrative support to this? 4 A. Not that I can recall.
5 A. Beyond participation of staff? 5 Q. Did anyone discuss with you what
6 Q. Beyond Ms. Grand and Mr. Daly to a 6 those documents, in terms of articles,
7 lesser extent. 7 documenting their work, should look like?
8 A. It may have been. You'd have to 8 A. Should look like?
9 ask them that. 9 Q. Right.
10 Q. During the course of the 10 A. No.
11 Concussion Working Group's study beginning in 11 Q. Did you ever discuss with anyone
12 1997, did you receive regular reports on their 12 what the emphasis should be for those
13 work? 13 documents?
14 A. I would -- well, when you say 14 A. No.
15 "regular reports," did I have an appointment 15 Q. If I were to ask someone about the
16 on the first of every month, the answer is no. 16 question of the documents produced by the
17 Did I try to keep an eye on 17 Concussion Working Group, would Julie Grand be
18 things, and I tend to run a fairly loose style 18 the best person?
19 with my staff in terms of my door is always 19 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
20 open, so I would get periodic reports and be 20 of the question.
21 kept generally advised as to what was going 21 A. As among the League office people
22 on. 22 I believe so. But I think you'd have to ask
23 Q. Taking the time period, 23 her.
24 Commissioner, 1997 through 2007, did any of 24 I think I'm going to need my
25 these "regular reports" take the form of 25 glasses.

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1 Q. I'm going to show you, 1 these minutes in draft, I don't recall seeing
2 Commissioner, what we're going to mark as 2 it. It wouldn't be unusual that when minutes
3 Bettman Exhibit Number 1. 3 of a general manager meeting were being
4 (Bettman Exhibit 1, Minutes of the 4 circulated, they get circulated to a bunch of
5 Meeting of the General Managers Held at 5 people including me. But that wouldn't mean
6 the LaQuinta Hotel Palms Springs, CA 6 that I would typically read them in draft. So
7 February 1-3, 1999 bearing production 7 I don't have a recollection of having seen
8 numbers NHL0211387 through NHL0211394, 8 this in draft when it was prepared.
9 marked for identification as of this 9 Q. Ministerial question,
10 date.) 10 Commissioner. Upper right-hand corner of the
11 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 11 first page, do you recognize the handwriting
12 Q. You will see that it is a draft 12 there as Kate Jones' handwriting?
13 document and it bears the stamp Draft in the 13 A. I don't recognize it as Kate's
14 upper left-hand corner. Minutes of the 14 handwriting. The fact that it says From Kate
15 Meeting of the General Managers held at the 15 and says KJ would lead me to assume -- which
16 LaQuinta Hotel, February 1-3, 1999. 16 I'm told you're not supposed to do in your
17 I take it you have seen this 17 deposition -- but common sense would tell you
18 document before? 18 that that's Kate Jones. But I wouldn't -- if
19 A. I don't know that I have. 19 it didn't say From Kate and have the KJ, I
20 Q. Take a moment and -- 20 wouldn't know that that was her handwriting.
21 MR. GOLDFEIN: Hold it one second. 21 Q. Would you turn, Commissioner, to
22 He can answer these questions -- you can 22 the page that ends in the Bates number at the
23 answer any of these questions without 23 lower right-hand corner, 391. You will see it
24 disclosing privilege, anything that's 24 says NHL Head Injury Project in the lower
25 privileged. Because, obviously, we 25 quadrant of the page. Number 7.
Page 51 Page 53
1 prepared, and the Commissioner did 1 And I'd ask you to take a moment
2 review certain documents in connection 2 and read that section as it continues over
3 with the deposition that you had 3 onto the next page.
4 supplied to us, Counsel. 4 A. Sure. Sure.
5 MR. GRYGIEL: Right. 5 (Document review.)
6 MR. GOLDFEIN: So I don't want 6 A. Okay.
7 there to be something -- you're not 7 Q. You've had a chance to read, it
8 referring to whether he saw a document 8 Commissioner?
9 in preparation as opposed to whether he 9 A. Yes, I have.
10 had seen it independently. 10
11 MR. GRYGIEL: Well, I do think I'm 11
12 entitled to ask if the Commissioner 12
13 looked at documents in preparation for 13
14 purposes of refreshing his recollection 14
15 to testify. I think as a matter of 15
16 evidentiary law I'm right about that. 16
17 And I guess that should be my question. 17
18 MR. GOLDFEIN: That would call for 18
19 a yes or no. 19
20 MR. GRYGIEL: Yeah. 20
21 MR. GOLDFEIN: And -- yes. 21
22 A. I don't recall. And -- I don't 22
23 recall based on the discussion you and Mr. 23
24 Goldfein were having about the prep. I may or 24
25 may not have seen this. But as it relates to 25

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Page 66 Page 68
1 1 recipient.
2 2 A. Then I assume I saw it. I got it.
3 3 Q. You don't have any reason to doubt
4 4 you would have received this in the ordinary
5 5 course of your work at the NHL?
6 6 A. No.
7 7 Q. And you'll see this is Julie Grand
8 8 discussing visible signs of concussion,
9 9 correct?
10 10 A. Yes.
11 11 Q. And you will see she discusses 86
12 12 regular season concussions, right?
13 13 A. Where are you looking?
14 14 Q. Middle paragraph -- first --
15 15 second paragraph of her e-mail, sir.
16 16 A. Right.
17 17 Q. And she says: "Of the 86 regular
18 18 season concussions this season, in 31 the
19 19 player continued playing or returned to play
20 20 same game. In 13/31, meaning 13 of 31, the
21 21 player had visible signs of potential
22 22 concussion (wobbly, holding head, et cetera).
23 23 In the remainder it's possible that the
24 24 player's symptoms/signs did not evolve until
25 25 after the game concluded, which may explain
Page 67 Page 69
1 1 their continued play."
2 2 I read that correctly, didn't I?
3 3 A. I believe so.
4 4 Q. And then it goes on in the next
5 Q. You can set that one aside for the 5 paragraph to discuss whether or not the same
6 moment, Commissioner. 6 game RTP in 30 percent seems like more than
7 A. Sure. 7 uncommon circumstances, correct?
8 (Bettman Exhibit 2, e-mail dated 8 A. Where are you reading?
9 3/8/2011 bearing production numbers 9 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to form.
10 NHL0231896 through NHL0231897, marked 10 Q. Next paragraph down.
11 for identification as of this date.) 11 A. Oh, you only read part of that
12 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 12 paragraph. That's why I lost you.
13 Q. I am going to show you what I am 13 You mean this paragraph that goes
14 marking now, Commissioner, as Bettman 14 "While our current protocol allows for same
15 Exhibit 2. You see it's a two-page document 15 game return to play, it says it should be
16 and it bears some handwriting in the upper 16 uncommon and only if the player has complete
17 right-hand corner that says Return to Play. 17 resolution of symptoms and is neurologically
18 Could you take a moment and look 18 normal as determined from a SCAT2 type
19 at that, please. 19 assessment."
20 (Document review.) 20 Q. Right.
21 A. Okay. 21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Have you ever seen this document 22 Q. When you got this e-mail, did you
23 before? 23 respond to Ms. Grand and say You need to
24 A. I don't recall. 24 follow up with these particular teams whose
25 Q. You'll see you are shown as a 25 players you observed?

612.338.3376
Page 70 Page 72
1 A. I don't recall that I did. But my 1 will enforce the revised protocol going
2 guess is she did. 2 forward."
3 Q. Were you surprised when you saw 3 Do you see that?
4 this? 4 A. Yes. My guess is we did.
5 A. No. We were involved in evolving 5 Q. Did you participate in that
6 something that was new. 6 discussion?
7 Q. When Ms. Grand says same game RTP 7 A. With the GMs? I'm at the GMs'
8 and 30 percent -- actually I think the 8 meeting so I'm assuming I did.
9 percentage is something like 36 percent. 9 Q. Can you recall anything specific
10 A. I didn't do the math. 10 that you said about the necessity of
11 Q. Looking at this, does this tell 11 compliance with this protocol?
12 you as Commissioner that there needed to be a 12 A. I'm sure if you showed me the
13 better enforcement mechanism for making sure 13 minutes of the meeting you'd refresh my
14 that teams complied with the protocol? 14 recollection.
15 A. I think based on the stage we were 15 Q. But sitting here now you can't
16 at and the evolution of what we were doing I 16 remember anything.
17 think we needed more education and more 17 A. I assume I once again reinforced
18 attention focus. 18 the fact that we're taking this matter
19 You know, sanctions are great, but 19 seriously and we need to do what the medical
20 we were involved in a process that was 20 community is telling us we need to do.
21 evolving, which required education. And 21 Q. I mean, as you've said in this
22 better to get the culture changed and people 22 deposition and elsewhere, the NHL took the
23 knowing what the right thing was to do than 23 lead on concussion management as opposed to
24 just threaten them. And I think that's what 24 other pro sports, right?
25 we were in the middle of here. And I also 25 A. Yes.
Page 71 Page 73
1 think that our return-to-play decisions and 1 Q. And one of the bases for saying
2 our diagnosis decisions were also not made by 2 that is this concussion protocol, true?
3 the club, made by the medical people, were 3 A. Yes.
4 still evolving as well. 4 Q. And this protocol is only as good
5 Q. Okay. When you got this e-mail, 5 as its enforcement and as its observance as
6 Commissioner, I take it you didn't give any 6 opposed to simply being a piece of paper,
7 directive about any specific follow-up Ms. 7 agreed?
8 Grand should take. 8 A. Well, but you need to implement it
9 A. I said I don't recall, but I'm 9 first. You needed to change the culture. It
10 sure she followed up. 10 was an evolving work in process that had many
11 Q. Did you discuss with Dr. 11 constituent groups. And I think our track
12 Echemendia, any particular steps the NHL 12 record in getting the changing culture and
13 should consider taking to get better 13 getting the protocols to the extent we did and
14 compliance? 14 the fact that they're being applied the way
15 A. I don't recall doing that but 15 they are now was extraordinarily good.
16 again we were involved in a process. You're 16 Q. But you would agree with me that
17 taking a snapshot and this is more of a video. 17 the protocol is only as good as its
18 Q. When you say "this" you're talking 18 enforcement.
19 about the NHL's program as opposed to the 19 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
20 snapshot being the document. 20 of the question.
21 A. No, I'm talking about the 21 A. You're making it sound like it's
22 document. 22 binary like throwing a light switch. Not that
23 Q. Yeah. Ms. Grand's last paragraph, 23 simple.
24 the fifth of her text says: "We should 24 Q. I agree with you, Commissioner,
25 discuss with the GMs and internally how we 25 it's not that simple. But you would agree

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1 with me that if this is simply a piece of 1 A. The clubs as a general matter know
2 paper, the concussion protocol, and nothing is 2 that if they do -- if they don't do what
3 done to make sure clubs follow it, it's not 3 they're supposed to do or they do what they're
4 particularly helpful. 4 not supposed to do, there are typically
5 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 5 consequences. Runs across the board on --
6 of the question. 6 it's not just on this issue. It's -- we
7 A. We've been very good as a League 7 interact with the club on a whole host of
8 with our Players' Association and our other 8 things, on a whole host of matters on a
9 constituent groups in educating everybody as 9 regular basis, and they know what we expect of
10 to what needed to be done and following up. 10 them.
11 If your inference is the protocol is a piece 11 Q. But I take it there was no
12 of paper and we don't take it seriously, I 12 systematic compliance mechanism that the NHL
13 would absolutely reject that position by you. 13 executive offices drafted to ensure compliance
14 It's belied by everything that 14 with the concussion protocol?
15 we've done and the fact is to do what we did 15 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
16 took an extraordinary ongoing effort, which is 16 of the question.
17 still going on and it's still evolving, and to 17 A. If you're asking me do the clubs
18 suggest that at any point in time we were not 18 know that they'll get fined or potentially
19 diligent in this process is not only untrue 19 worse if they don't do what they're supposed
20 but somewhat offensive. 20 to do, I believe all the clubs know that.
21 Q. I don't mean to be offensive. I'm 21 Q. But that wasn't exactly what I was
22 simply asking questions, Commissioner. 22 asking you.
23 A. And I'm responding. 23 A. No. But I'm answering the
24 Q. Fair enough. 24 question to the best of my ability.
25 Ms. Grand goes on to talk about 25 Q. Can you identify for me any
Page 75 Page 77
1 "internally we should discuss." Do you 1 program that the NHL put in place that
2 remember any internal discussions not 2 specifically mandates compliance with the
3 including the GMs about how the revised 3 concussion protocols?
4 protocol would be enforced? 4 A. If you look at everything we've
5 MR. GOLDFEIN: I'm sorry, Counsel. 5 done and you look at all the minutes and you
6 Where does she say internally we should 6 see what we've done with the GMs, with the
7 discuss? 7 coaches, with the trainers, with the players
8 A. It says it here. 8 and the Players' Association, we are committed
9 MR. GRYGIEL: Fifth paragraph. 9 to enforcing this. We've made a multitude of
10 A. It says: "We should discuss with 10 changes including the evolving of the
11 the GMs and internally how we will enforce the 11 concussion protocol, both the diagnosis and
12 revised...going forward if we observe 12 return to play and we follow up.
13 players..." 13 You see, the point that I think
14 I think it was exactly how we were 14 you're missing is we're constantly interacting
15 going to follow up. And my guess is what we 15 with our clubs. On this and other matters.
16 were going to say to the GMs. 16 So when we'd see something in any
17 Q. Okay. Do you remember anything 17 sphere that isn't being complied with the
18 specific about the internal discussion? 18 clubs are told, warned, or possibly
19 A. Not specifically. But, again, 19 disciplined.
20 whatever we did probably was reflected in the 20 So the type of formal mechanism
21 minutes of the next GM meeting. 21 that you're seeking, it's formal in the sense
22 Q. Coming out of this March 8th, 2011 22 that it's standard ordinary practice for us.
23 in the next GM meeting, did the NHL consider 23
24 any enforcement protocol to ensure compliance 24
25 with the concussion protocol? 25

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1 1 2 through I guess page 8 if you're going to
2 2 ask me about a question about something in the
3 3 middle.
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 (Bettman Exhibit 3, Minutes of the 7
8 Meeting of the General Managers Held at 8
9 Boca Beach Club - Boca Raton, Florida 9
10 March 14-16, 2011 bearing production 10
11 numbers NHL0155335 through NHL0155359, 11
12 marked for identification as of this 12
13 date.) 13
14 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 14
15 Q. I'm showing you now, Commissioner, 15 Q. Part of the reason we provide
16 what we're going to mark as Bettman Exhibit 16 these in advance -- and I obviously realize
17 Number 3. You will see this says Minutes of 17 there are a lot of documents provided in
18 the Meeting of the General Managers, Boca 18 advance -- so that we don't have to do that
19 Beach Club, Boca Raton, Florida, March 14-16, 19 every one of these cases.
20 2011. And you will see that this is the 20 A. How many documents did you provide
21 general manager's meeting that followed the 21 in advance?
22 e-mail we just looked at from Ms. Grand. 22 Q. I think about a hundred and -- now
23 A. This is not signed. So is this -- 23 it's probably 300.
24 I can't tell you that this is the real final 24 MR. GOLDFEIN: No, 320.
25 absolute accurate set of minutes. 25 Q. 300. More than usual.
Page 79 Page 81
1 Q. Okay. And I wasn't going to ask 1 A. With all due respect --
2 you that. 2 Q. Right. More than usual. More
3 A. Okay. Well, but -- 3 than usual.
4 Q. And I understand. There are some 4 A. Okay. So --
5 of these that are draft unfortunately and some 5 Q. Let me try it this way. And if
6 are not. And this one is not signed. I don't 6 you can't answer this question without reading
7 know if that means it's a final that's 7 the whole document, I'll understand that.
8 unsigned or a draft that's unsigned. I don't 8 MR. GOLDFEIN: No, I'm going to
9 know either. 9 object. The Commissioner said he would
10 A. Well, but I'm not authenticating 10 like to read the document. He reads
11 this as a business record for you. 11 pretty quickly and you should allow him
12 Q. I'm not asking you to. 12 to read the document.
13 A. And I'm not even sure, to the 13 THE WITNESS: What kind of
14 extent you're going to use it to try and 14 pressure are you putting on me to speed
15 refresh my recollection, hopefully this is 15 read?
16 what it purports to be because it wouldn't be 16 A. Do you want me to read it or not?
17 terribly fair or accurate if this gives me the 17 Talk to me.
18 wrong impression on something. 18 Q. I prefer you didn't have to read
19 Q. Let's see if it refreshes your 19 the whole thing. And, frankly, I don't think
20 recollection. We'll try it. 20 you need to to answer the question I wanted to
21 A. Okay. 21 ask you.
22 Q. If you would turn to the page -- 22 A. Well, you know what? Ask me the
23 upper corner here, page 4, Commissioner. 23 question and then I'll tell you whether or not
24 A. Page 4. That's in the middle of a 24 I want to read the whole thing.
25 section. I'd rather start and read from page 25 Q. That's a good way to approach it.

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16 16 Q. I'm showing you now, Commissioner,
17 17 what we're going to mark as Exhibit Number 4.
18 18 (Bettman Exhibit 4, document
19 19 headed Concussions in the National
20 20 Hockey League NHL General mangers'
21 21 Meeting March 2011 bearing production
22 22 numbers NHL0200272 through NHL0200366,
23 23 marked for identification as of this
24 24 date.)
25 25 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
Page 87 Page 89
1 1 Q. You will see it is a fairly thick
2 2 stack, the cover page of which says
3 3 Concussions in the National Hockey League.
4 4 Have you ever seen this document
5 5 before, Commissioner?
6 6 A. I am sure I've seen the
7 7 presentation. If this is the final document.
8 8 I don't know if it is or it isn't but I know
9 9 there was a presentation made in March of 2011
10 10 to the general managers at their meeting. If
11 11 this is a draft of the final form, I don't
12 12 know that. And I don't know that I've
13 13 actually seen it in hard copy prior to the
14 14 presentation at the meeting.
15 15 Q. Do you know who would have been
16 16 charged with putting this document together?
17 17 A. It could have been one of a number
18 18 of people. It could have been Julie Grand.
19 19 It could have been Gary Meagher. It could
20 20 have been -- the answer is I don't know who
21 21 prepared this actually. It could have been
22 22 either of them but it could have been somebody
23 23 else. It could have been our medical
24 24 consultants.
25 25 Q. Would you have reviewed this

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1 before it went out? 1 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
2 A. Not necessarily. When you say 2 of that question.
3 "went out," I think it was presented. I don't 3 A. I don't think it's medically
4 think it was sent out in this form. 4 recommended.
5 Q. Okay. If you would turn, 5 Q. And by not medically recommended
6 Commissioner, to the page that bears the 6 you mean, yes, it increases the danger to that
7 number in the lower right-hand corner, 55, and 7 particular player.
8 the Bates page is 356. And you'll see the top 8 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the
9 of the page is "Return to Game?" And it deals 9 form of the question.
10 with Concussions, MGL, and MGL Per Concussion. 10 A. I'm not sure what you mean by
11 MGL is man games lost, correct? 11 "dangerous." The fact is if you're playing
12 A. Yes. 12 while you're concussed, you shouldn't be.
13 Q. Looking at the numbers there, do 13 It's not even about the second concussion.
14 you have any reason to doubt that those are 14 You may not be -- your reflexes might not be
15 accurate? 15 as good and you may wind up getting injured in
16 A. I have no reason to doubt that 16 some other way.
17 they're either accurate or inaccurate, again, 17 Q. So it's bad for all kinds of
18 because I don't know that this document is the 18 reasons. We can agree on that, right?
19 final form or that which was presented. 19 A. Yes.
20 I assume that which was ultimately 20 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the
21 presented has the accurate numbers. 21 form of the question.
22 Q. If you would turn to the next page 22 Q. Looking at this page here, Finish
23 you will see there is another heading that 23 Game, you see that 16 players finished the
24 says "Finish Game?" 24 game who were either diagnosed with a
25 Do you have any reason to doubt 25 concussion or later diagnosed with a
Page 91 Page 93
1 that the numbers presented here are 1 concussion in 2009/2010. And then in
2 inaccurate? 2 2010/2011 22 did.
3 A. Same answer as I gave you on the 3 And the percentages are actually
4 prior page. 4 26 percent and 27 percent.
5 Q. And you're aware, aren't you, 5 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection.
6 Commissioner, that if a person is suffering 6 Q. Did you ever focus on that with
7 from a concussion that is unhealed and they 7 Ms. Grand and say We need to do better on
8 suffer a second one, they're much more likely 8 this?
9 to suffer a third? 9 A. Well, actually --
10 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 10 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
11 of the question. Lacks foundation. 11 of the question. It lacks foundation.
12 A. Say that again. 12 A. Also you don't know what this
13 Q. Sure. You're aware if a person is 13 means because not all concussions are
14 suffering from an unhealed concussion, they're 14 immediately identifiable. Somebody might
15 much more likely to suffer a second 15 actually be able to clinically pass an
16 concussion. 16 evaluation, go back on the ice, and then not
17 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 17 have symptoms for a couple of days. That
18 of the question. 18 would not be unheard of. So I'm not exactly
19 A. Actually, I don't know whether or 19 sure what this represents.
20 not -- I'm not a doctor -- they're more likely 20 Q. Looking at the numbers in front of
21 to suffer a second. But if they suffer a 21 us, does it refresh your recollection about
22 second, it's likely to be more serious. 22 anything any of the general managers said
23 Q. So for a player returning to play 23 about the concussion protocol not working very
24 before the player is fully healed is a 24 well?
25 dangerous thing for that player, correct? 25 A. No.

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1 Q. Does it refresh your memory about 1
2 anything any general manager said about how to 2
3 make it work better? 3
4 A. Actually, you'd have to look at 4
5 the minutes, which we just went through, of 5
6 the same meeting, and that would tell you what 6
7 was said and what wasn't said. 7
8 Q. Did any general manager ever 8
9 suggest that there be sanctions for clubs who 9
10 don't follow the protocol? 10
11 A. Not that I recall because they all 11
12 understood that ultimately, once we got this 12
13 to a point where everybody understood what 13
14 they needed to do, that they would be required 14
15 to comply. And our compliance has been pretty 15
16 good. Pretty darn good. 16
17 Q. Did you ever discuss this issue of 17
18 returning to play while still concussed with 18
19 any member of the Board of Governors outside 19
20 of a Board of Governors' meeting? 20
21 A. Not that I recall. 21
22 Q. Did you ever discuss the issue of 22
23 returning to play while a player is still 23
24 concussed with any independent medical advisor 24
25 that you retained for the NHL outside of the 25
Page 95 Page 97
1 NHL's doctors? 1
2 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 2
3 of the question. 3
4 A. Repeat the question, please. 4
5 MR. GRYGIEL: Read it back, 5
6 Francis. 6
7 (Record read.) 7
10 A. If you're asking me the question 10
11 did I ever have a conversation that said 11
12 obviously if somebody's concussed we don't 12
13 want them playing, I can't tell you I never 13
14 had that conversation. I don't have a 14
15 specific recollection because it's pretty 15
16 obvious. 16
17 MR. GOLDFEIN: Are you done with 17
18 this? 18
19 MR. GRYGIEL: Yeah. For now. I'm 19
20 sure I'll end up coming back to it. 20
21 (Bettman Exhibit 5, e-mail dated 21
22 4/10/2011 bearing production numbers 22
23 NHL0516458 through NHL0516459, marked 23
24 for identification as of this date.) 24

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1 1 THE WITNESS: Sure.
2 2 (Bettman Exhibit 7, Minutes of the
3 3 Meeting of the General Managers The
4 4 Langham Hotel - Boston MA June 8, 2011
5 5 bearing production numbers NHL0035098
6 6 through NHL0035107, marked for
7 7 identification as of this date.)
8 8 (Discussion held off the record.)
9 9 A. Again --
10 10 Q. Same caveat.
11 11 A. We don't know -- I'm not
12 12 authenticating for you and we don't know if
13 13 this is exactly it is so you're going to see
14 14 if you can refresh my recollection with this.
15 15 Q. Right.
16 16 A. What page would you like me to
17 17 look at?
18 18 Q. Well, let me just identify it.
19 19 This says Minutes of the Meeting of the
20 20 General Managers, the Langham Hotel, Boston
21 21 Mass., June 8, 2011. Bates numbers NHL
22 22 0035098 through -107.
23 23 A. Stanley Cup final,
24 24 Boston/Vancouver.
25 25 Q. That was a good one.
Page 107 Page 109

1 1 A. Yes. Unless you're a fan of
2 2 Vancouver. You just betrayed a rooting bias.
3 3 Go ahead.
4 4 MR. GOLDFEIN: He's from Boston.
5 5 A. Are you from Boston?
6 6 Q. Sort of.
7 7 A. What do you mean sort of? What
8 8 kind of answer is that?
9 9 Q. I went to school there for four
10 10 years -- three years. I lived there for four
11 11 years and went to school there for three years
12 12 and I'm a Canadiens fan and I make no bones
13 13 about it. If you look at my bag you'll see my
14 14 Canadiens bag tag.
15 15 A. Really?
16 16 Q. Let the record reflect, there it
17 17 is (indicating).
18 18 A. Okay.
19 19 Q. That's what growing up in Upstate
20 20 New York will do for you.
21 21 A. Where did you grow up in Upstate
22 22 New York?
23 MR. GRYGIEL: We'll do one more 23 Q. Just outside of Utica.
24 document and then we'll take a break if 24 A. Sure.
25 that's okay. 25 Q. Now they've got the Canucks as the

612.338.3376
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1 parent team. 1
2 A. Um-hum. Well -- 2
3 Q. Best part of the deposition so 3
4 far. 4
5 A. The -- it is part or it's not? 5
6 Q. It is. The part I'm enjoying the 6
7 most. 7
8 8
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Page 114 Page 116

1 MR. GOLDFEIN: I want to just 1 you remember the prior exhibit we looked at,
2 point out for the record that this 2 Kris, a long time hockey player, remained
3 document is dated on the first page 3 skeptical. And my belief is that at least at
4 referring to a meeting of June 8th but 4 this stage he had some concern that there may
5 on the subsequent pages at the top -- 5 have been some underreporting and there may
6 MR. GRYGIEL: It's March 14th. 6 have been, as we were installing, as we
7 MR. GOLDFEIN: -- it's March 14th. 7 discussed, this protocol, we had to work to
8 A. Well, that's why again we don't 8 get to the point where everybody was pretty
9 know exactly what this is. 9 much doing what we expected and where we
10 MR. GRYGIEL: I was going to -- 10 ultimately have gotten to.
11 actually I figured out why that is. 11 Q. Ms. Grand says: "Right point re.
12 MR. GOLDFEIN: Okay. 12 the underreporting."
13 MR. GRYGIEL: But it wasn't 13 A. Uh-huh.
14 relevant to my questions. It was an 14 Q. Did she discuss that with you
15 artifact of copying from a previous 15 about why she agreed that there was
16 minute session, the previous minutes. I 16 underreporting?
17 can represent that to you. 17 A. I don't recall. Although -- you
18 MR. GOLDFEIN: I'm not sure I 18 know, again, this is one e-mail. Lots of
19 understand that, but I don't know that 19 conversations. My guess, and my lawyers will
20 it matters. 20 get upset with me for guessing, is we always
21 MR. GRYGIEL: We can take our 21 have the concern that players sometimes don't
22 break. 22 like to report their symptoms.
23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 23 Q. I note that it refers to Mr.
24 11:33. We're going off the record. 24 King's thinking the clubs are engaged in
25 (Recess taken.) 25 underreporting --
Page 115 Page 117

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 1 A. I think you may be parsing the
2 11:45. We're back on the record. 2 language a little too finely. But, again,
3 (Bettman Exhibit 8, e-mail dated 3 since I didn't write the e-mail you'd have to
4 11/10/2011 bearing production numbers 4 ask Mr. Daly.
5 NHL0035193 through NHL0035194, marked 5 Q. Are you aware of any follow-up
6 for identification as of this date.) 6 that was done to check on this so-called
7 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 7 underreporting of concussions by the clubs?
8 Q. I'm showing you, Commissioner, 8 A. Well, Julie who's very efficient,
9 what we've marked as Exhibit Number 8. You 9 it says in the top e-mail she will check. So
10 will see this a couple-of-page document, an 10 I'm, again, assuming, because she's very good
11 e-mail chain. In the upper left-hand corner 11 at what she does, that she followed up.
12 it says Concussions. The date is November 10, 12
13 2011. And you will see at the very top 13
14 there's an e-mail memo from Julie Grand to you 14
15 and Bill Daly with some c.c.'s, correct? 15 Q. But she doesn't say she's going to
16 A. Yes. 16 check re. the underreporting.
17 Q. The second e-mail down from the 17 My question, Commissioner, is
18 top is Mr. Daly. And he talks about the 18 simply are you aware of any systemic follow-up
19 "underreporting of concussions that Kinger 19 that she engaged in to check on this
20 thinks our clubs are engaged in." 20 underreporting?
21 Kinger is Kris King, correct? 21 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the
22 A. Correct. 22 form of the question.
23 Q. Do you know what underreporting of 23 A. Actually, I'm not aware of
24 concussions he's speaking of? 24 systemic underreporting.
25 A. Not specifically. But, again, if 25 Q. And I take it when you got this

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1 e-mail you didn't make any phone calls and 1 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
2 say, Hey, what gives here? 2 of the question.
3 A. I may have done that. I don't 3 A. I haven't read it yet. I was
4 recall. 4 reading from the back because this is a
5 Q. And do you recall getting any 5 three-page document and you've got to read it
6 information back that the underreporting was 6 chronologically to see where we are.
7 actually not so, that it was not a fact? 7 (Document review continuing.)
8 A. I'm fairly comfortable that with 8 A. Okay.
9 all the efforts that we're taking, the 9 Q. You've had a chance to look at it?
10 compliance with what we're doing vis-à-vis 10 A. Yes, I have.
11 concussions is getting better all the time. 11 Q. Do you see the middle e-mail is
12 And as we've discussed previously, 12 one from -- on the first page is one from
13 it evolved. It's a work in progress. It 13 Colin Campbell to a number of people including
14 continues. But I think we've taken remarkable 14 you, right?
15 and dramatic steps to go in the right 15 A. Yes.
16 direction. 16 Q. And it refers to Colton Orr having
17 Q. So in terms of this underreporting 17 "at least three concussions in the last year
18 you don't have any further knowledge other 18 (even though NONE are recorded.)"
19 than what's on this page here. 19 A. Yes.
20 A. That's correct. As it relates to 20 Q. Did you follow up and ask anybody
21 this e-mail. 21 how it could be that a player would have three
22 (Bettman Exhibit 9, e-mail dated 22 non-recorded concussions in the past year?
Page 119 Page 121

1 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 1 Q. Did you ask Mr. Campbell what he
2 Q. I'll show you what we've marked as 2 meant by this?
3 Exhibit number 9. You'll see at the very top 3
4 that it's an e-mail from you to Colin 4
5 Campbell. Ask you to take a quick look at it. 5
6 (Document review.) 6
7 Q. You've seen the document before, 7
8 haven't you? 8
9 A. I don't recall specifically. 9 I don't -- in other words, for
10 Q. You don't have any reason to doubt 10 example, if you read Colin's e-mail, we figure
11 this is -- 11 he has at least three concussions. They had
12 A. You would assume that I get lots 12 no way of knowing.
13 of e-mails. 13 Q. So you don't know what Mr.
14 Q. Oh, I do assume that. And I think 14 Campbell based that on.
15 I've looked at a number of them. 15 A. It was Mr. Campbell -- and I
16 A. I'm sure you haven't scratched the 16 assume you had this discussion with him when
17 surface, although I'm sure you've looked at 17 you took his deposition. Mr. Campbell was
18 all of the ones that are relevant to this 18 thinking out loud. I don't think he had
19 case. 19 specific knowledge here. But, again, you
20 Q. I hope so. 20 would have had to ask him.
21 A. Yes. So I do. 21 Q. You're not aware of any penalty
22 Q. You don't have any reason to doubt 22 being imposed on Toronto, Mr. Orr's former
23 that this is an e-mail you sent and one you 23 club, for letting him play when he was
24 received in the ordinary course of your 24 concussed?
25 business? 25 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form

612.338.3376
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1 of the question. Lacks foundation. 1
2 A. Well, nobody knows that he was 2
3 concussed. 3
4 Q. But my question, sir, was you're 4
5 not aware of any penalty that Toronto received 5
6 as a result of a suspected concussion. 6
9 A. If you don't know if he was 9
10 concussed, your question doesn't have a 10
11 foundation that requires an answer. If he 11
12 wasn't concussed, why would there be any 12
13 penalty? 13
14 Q. Was there any follow-up with 14
15 Toronto? 15
16 A. I don't know. 16
17 Q. You didn't make any. 17
18 A. I don't -- as I told you 18
19 repeatedly, I don't do that typically. That's 19
20 done by the people that work with me. 20
21 Q. And you would assume that Julie, 21
22 if follow-up was necessary, would do it. 22
23 A. Yeah. Although, again, in this 23
24 particular case, nobody knows that he was 24
25 concussed once at all. 25
Page 123 Page 125

1 Q. Looking up at the very top e-mail 1
2 from you, which deals with the rules on 2
3 fighting, that's an e-mail you sent, correct? 3
4 A. Yes. 4
5 Q. You wrote, among other things, 5
6 "Half the world wants fighting eliminated and 6
7 the other half wants more...I'd say it's 7
8 insane!" 8
9 A. Yeah. 9
10 Q. Is that your position on this? 10
11 A. My position? No, it's a casual 11
12 conversation I was as having with staff. 12
13 There is -- "insane" is the word I'm quibbling 13
14 with you over. The fact is there's a lot of 14
15 debate and a lot of different views on the 15
16 subject. And when it rises to a certain level 16
17 we sit back and look at it and marvel at the 17
18 passion that people have for our game and the 18
19 disagreement over whether or not fighting, 19
20 which is penalized, has a role in the game, 20
21 whether or not the penalties are at the right 21
22 level. These are all things that people have 22
23 been debating for years. 23
24 24
25 25

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1 1 that will be for others to determine.
2 2 Q. Well, I would suggest that most
3 3 people consider you to be a very rational,
4 4 logical, analytical person. And I'm simply
5 5 wondering have you ever asked anybody does
6 6 this safety valve theory of fighting really
7 7 hold up?
8 8 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
9 9 of the question.
10 10 A. You know, it's interesting
11 11 because -- and I thank you for the compliment.
12 12 Q. I mean it, by the way.
13 13 A. Okay. So if you think I'm that
14 14 analytical --
15 15 Q. I do.
16 16 A. -- and if you think I'm smart --
17 17 Q. I do.
18 18 A. -- okay? Then why on earth do you
19 19 think we would take all the steps that we've
20 20 been taking to do what we can do under the
21 21 circumstances and the current state of medical
22 22 knowledge to do the best we can if I didn't
23 23 have the best interest of the players and the
24 24 game at heart?
25 25 Now, you don't have to answer the
Page 139 Page 141

1 1 question because it's not your deposition.
2 2 But my point to you is we're all -- with
3 3 everybody I deal with, okay, what I'm trying
4 4 to constantly do is gather and sift as much
5 5 information as possible and help people who
6 6 are the constituents of this game in
7 7 conjunction with the Players' Association make
8 8 good decisions because it's the right thing to
9 9 do.
10 Q. And what I'm trying -- I 10
11 understand that, Commissioner, and I 11
12 appreciate it. 12
13 What I'm trying to understand 13
14 is -- strike that. 14
15 I've read an awful lot about you, 15
16 Commissioner -- 16
17 A. Don't believe it all. Seriously. 17
18 Q. I don't believe it all. 18
19 A. You shouldn't. 19
20 Q. And one thing that comes clear is 20
21 you're a very analytical guy. Isn't that fair 21
22 to say about you? 22
25 A. I'm not self-analytical. So, yes, 25

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1 1 Colgate. One of my sons.
2 2 A. There you go.
3 3 Q. Let's change gears here.
4 4 A. Whatever you'd like. It's your
5 5 show.
6 6 Q. You mentioned earlier today that
7 7 one of the doctors with whom you had consulted
8 8 was Dr. Meeuwisse.
9 9 A. Meeuwisse. Willem Meeuwisse?
10 10 Yes. From Calgary.
11 11
12 12
13 13
14 14
15 15
16 16
17 17 Q. Well, he's certainly someone you

18 18 consulted with about the issue of concussions
19 19 in the National Hockey League.
20 20 A. Over time. But not the only one.
21 21 Ruben Echemendia is somebody whose judgment I
22 22 am overwhelmingly comfortable with.
23 23 Q. I'm going to show you,
24 24 Commissioner, what I'm going to mark as
25 25 Exhibit Number -- I can never keep track.
Page 143 Page 145

1 1 A. I think we're up to 9, 10.
2 2 MR. GOLDFEIN: Ten, 10.
3 3 Q. Ten.
5 5 bearing production numbers IM000589
6 6 through IM000603, marked for
7 7 identification as of this date.)
8 8 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
9 9 Q. I'm going to show you what's
10 10 Exhibit 10. And I apologize for the copy.
11 11 There is a -- I'm told why this shading
12 12 happens and I can't explain it. But I know
13 13 there's a reason for it. It doesn't change
14 14 the text. It's simply the way it comes out.
15 15 And I'll ask you first while I identify the
16 16 document, ask you just to take a leaf through
17 17 it and see if it looks familiar to you.
18 18 This document is a document with
19 19 the Bates numbers from IM000598 through 00603.
20 20 It's not an NHL document.
21 21 A. There are no Bates numbers on
22 22 here.
23 A. Well, that's near your neck of the 23 Q. I'm sorry, Commissioner. They're
24 woods because that's Hamilton, New York. 24 hard to find. They're right here
25 Q. That's right. My son went to 25 (indicating.)

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1 A. Here (indicating)? 1 "Significant symptoms of mild concussion
2 Q. No, right here (indicating). 2 include decreased cognitive function and" --
3 A. Here (indicating)? 3 A. Whoa, whoa. Where are you reading
4 Q. Yep. 4 from?
5 MR. GOLDFEIN: Where are they? 5 Q. I'm sorry. It's the second
6 MR. GRYGIEL: They should be right 6 paragraph under --
7 here (indicating). 7 A. Oh, I got it. Okay. Go ahead.
8 MR. GOLDFEIN: I'm sorry. I don't 8 Q. Why don't you take a moment and
9 see them. 9 read that yourself.
10 A. It says Protective Order -- 10 A. Can I read the whole thing or do I
11 Q. And then there are numbers after 11 not need to?
12 that. 12 Q. I don't think you need to read the
13 A. Oh, okay. 13 whole thing.
14 Q. Do you see them? 14 MR. GOLDFEIN: I would suggest you
15 A. Yes. Now I do. 15 read the whole thing. And then I'm
16 MR. GOLDFEIN: This is produced by 16 going to object since he's testified he
17 another party. 17 hasn't seen the document to any
18 MR. GRYGIEL: Right. Exactly 18 questioning on the basis of the lack of
19 right. 19 foundation.
20 MR. GOLDFEIN: Or a non-party. A 20 MR. GRYGIEL: I don't think he'll
21 third party actually. Right? 21 need --
22 MR. GRYGIEL: Yes, exactly. It 22 MR. GOLDFEIN: And I object to you
23 was produced by Impact. Mark Lovell. 23 reading hearsay into the record as well.
24 MR. GOLDFEIN: Okay. 24 A. I like the first sentence, though,
25 25 where it says "We've been a leader in bringing
Page 147 Page 149

1 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 1 the issue of concussion" --
2 Q. Does any of this look familiar to 2 Q. I thought you might.
3 you, Commissioner? 3 MR. GRYGIEL: Are you sure you
4 A. Not that I can recall. 4 want to have this objection?
5 Q. You'll note in the upper 5 MR. GOLDFEIN: Yes. I'm sure I
6 right-hand corner it says K. Weber, 6 want to have to objection. Particularly
7 CDP_hockey, 11/1/00. And there appears to be 7 reading hearsay into the record.
8 a fax header at the top, November 1, 8 (Document review.)
9 Wednesday, 9:22. And then it says 9 A. What is computerized dynamic
10 mysteriously OB/GYN Admin Office. 10 posturography? Is that like an X-ray or
11 A. That's odd. 11 something?
12 Q. This document has a Project Title 12 Q. No. It's another mechanism by
13 and Principal Investigators. 13 which you make a return-to-play determination.
14 Do you see the names of the 14 A. But what is it exactly?
15 investigators? 15 Q. Pardon me?
16 A. Yes. 16 A. What does it look at?
17 Q. Do you know who Dr. B. Lange is? 17 Q. I get to ask the questions today,
18 A. No. 18 Commissioner.
19 Q. Do you know who K. Weber is? 19 A. Okay. Well, I don't know.
20 A. Nope. 20 Q. Yeah. I was going to ask you,
21 Q. Of course, Dr. W. Meeuwisse you 21 does any of this ring a bell about a proposal
22 recognize as the doctor you consulted with. 22 that was brought to you for purposes of the
23 A. Yes, I do. Yes. 23 Concussion Study Group?
24 Q. You'll see in this abstract that's 24 A. No.
25 on the first page of this project, it reads: 25 Q. Okay. Did Dr. Meeuwisse ever

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1 speak with you about what "long-term cognitive 1 of the question.
2 dysfunction" results from repeated 2 A. I'm not sure that's correct. I
3 concussions? 3 mean, I don't remember what date they started
4 A. No, I don't have a specific 4 going out. But there were memos that were
5 conversation in mind. This is back in 2000. 5 sent out in conjunction with the Players'
6 Q. Right. 6 Association that were posted on bulletin
7 7 boards that had FAQs, frequently asked
8 8 questions, and that suggested that this was a
9 9 serious issue and that there was the potential
10 10 for long-term risk, although at that time
11 11 nobody knew exactly what it was.
12 12 Q. Can you identify specifically what
13 13 you're referring to, Commissioner?
14 14 A. I'm sure it's in the documents
15 15 that have been produced. There have been
16 16 frequent documents that have gone out annually
17 17 to the clubs to post for the players and the
18 18 Players Association's been involved in that.
19 19 Q. Do you know what specifically
20 20 these long-term cognitive dysfunctions were as
21 Q. Dr. Meeuwisse is listed as a 21 of 2000?
22 principal investigator on this document, 22 A. I don't think anybody did for
23 right? 23 sure. I think people were speculating. Some
24 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 24 people may have believed without quantitative
25 of the question. 25 or scientific analysis that there may have
Page 151 Page 153

1 A. I don't know what that means, but, 1 been the potential for risk. But people today
2 yeah. 2 aren't a hundred percent sure or even close --
3 Q. And one of the sentences that 3 a hundred percent is an exaggeration. People
4 strikes my attention here is "Repeated 4 today will tell you that there's no ability to
5 concussions can result in fatalities due to 5 say that there's a link between concussions
6 second impact syndrome, or in long-term 6 and long-term cognitive problems such as CTE.
7 cognitive and postural dysfunction." 7 Q. Summing up this document, then,
8 You see that, right? 8 you don't remember any specific discussions
9 A. Well, yes. 9 you had with Dr. Meeuwisse at any time in
10 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form. 10 which he said, Commissioner, look, there are
11 Q. And my question simply is, has Dr. 11 some long-term cognitive effects here we need
12 Meeuwisse ever suggested to you, Commissioner, 12 to address.
13 you know, repeated concussions might have 13 A. I dont' recall that --
14 long-term consequences that we really haven't 14 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
15 talked about? 15 of the question.
16 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 16 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.
17 of the question. 17 MR. GOLDFEIN: I object to the
18 A. Well, I don't recall a specific 18 form of the question for the reasons
19 conversation with him doing that. 19 previously stated.
20 Q. As of the year 2000, you're not 20 A. I don't ever remember seeing this
21 aware of any warnings that National Hockey 21 document and I don't recall a specific
22 League players received saying that repeated 22 conversation like that.
23 concussions could result in long-term 23 Q. Are you curious about what Dr.
24 cognitive dysfunction. 24 Meeuwisse was referring to there?
25 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 25 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form

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1 of the question. 1 conditional objection --
2 A. Am I or was I? 2 MR. GRYGIEL: Fair enough.
3 Q. Are you now? 3 MR. GOLDFEIN: -- as to whether
4 A. Well, other than the fact that 4 the document is a complete document or
5 whatever CDP is, it hasn't had general 5 not.
6 acceptance. 6 MR. GRYGIEL: Fair enough.
7 7 A. Okay.
8 8 Q. You've had a chance to look at it,
9 9 Commissioner?
10 10 A. Yes.
11 11 Q. A moment ago you said that there
12 12 wasn't any evidence, as I understand it, I'm
13 13 paraphrasing, of a link between concussions
14 14 and long-term cognitive problems, correct?
15 15 A. Such as CTE.
16 16 Q. Right. And here you see that Mr.
17 17 Ech -- Dr. Echemendia is saying what the
18 (Bettman Exhibit 11, e-mail dated 18 research shows is that CTE exists as a
19 12/9/2011 bearing production numbers 19 pathological entity and that a link has been
20 NHL0026415 through NHL0026416, marked 20 made between CTE and repetitive brain trauma.
21 for identification as of this date.) 21 We don't know the strength of that link. We
22 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 22 also don't know who gets CTE, who doesn't get
23 Q. I'm going to show you what we've 23 CTE and what factors other than repetitive
24 marked as Bettman Exhibit 11. It was 24 blows to the head can cause CTE.
25 previously Echemendia Exhibit 4. It was 25 Consequently, to state that
Page 155 Page 157

1 marked at his deposition. And ask you to take 1 fighting in hockey causes CTE is premature and
2 look at that, please. 2 speculative.
3 (Document review.) 3 A. Correct.
4 Q. I'll identify it for the record 4 Q. So there's no doubt, is there,
5 while you're looking at it. This is a 5 that Dr. Echemendia works for the National
6 two-page document. The very top of it is Re: 6 Hockey League?
7 Jeff Klein. And there's an e-mail chain with 7 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
8 you, Mr. Daly, and some others. 8 of the question.
9 A. Um-hum. 9 A. He's not an employee of the
10 Q. The date is December 9, 2011. 10 National Hockey League.
11 A. Yes. 11 Q. He's a consultant to the National
12 Q. You don't have any reason to doubt 12 Hockey League.
13 that this was an e-mail sent and received in 13 A. Yes, he is.
14 the ordinary course of your business, do you? 14 Q. And he receives funding from the
15 MR. GOLDFEIN: I'll object to the 15 National Hockey League.
16 form of the question. I don't know 16 A. Yes.
17 whether this is the entire chain or not 17 Q. And he is someone who represents
18 the entire chain and can you make a 18 the National Hockey League to the National
19 representation? 19 Hockey League Players' Association on the
20 MR. GRYGIEL: I will make a 20 issue of concussions and head trauma, correct?
21 representation that I understand it is. 21 A. Say that again, please.
22 I didn't specifically check. But when I 22 Q. Sure. He's someone who represents
23 got this I was told this was the 23 the NHL to the NHLPA on the question of head
24 document. 24 trauma and concussion.
25 MR. GOLDFEIN: Well, I'll make a 25 A. I'm not sure I understand what you

612.338.3376
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1 mean when by "represents." But the fact is he 1 of the question.
2 serves as our consultant and he's on the 2 A. I don't know about the rating
3 Concussion Working Group. 3 scale.
4 Q. And he acts for the League in that 4 Q. You're aware that CTE is but one
5 capacity, does he not? 5 facet of repeated head hits.
6 A. Yes. 6 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
7 Q. And here he's saying that a link 7 of the question.
8 has been made. You don't have any reason to 8 A. No, it's not -- what do you mean
9 dispute that. 9 it's one form of repeated head hits? There's
10 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 10 no link on head hits.
11 of the question. 11 Q. So have you ever talked to Dr.
12 A. I don't think that's what he's 12 Echemendia about what he wrote here?
13 saying because he then caveats it with nobody 13 MR. GOLDFEIN: Counsel, these
14 knows what that link is. 14 questions are misleading. You took --
15 Q. He caveats it -- 15 did you not take Dr. Echemendia's
16 MR. GOLDFEIN: It's also contrary 16 deposition?
17 to his testimony, Counsel. You know 17 MR. GRYGIEL: No, but I was there.
18 that. 18 MR. GOLDFEIN: You were in
19 Q. We don't know the strength of that 19 attendance.
20 link. 20 MR. GRYGIEL: Yeah.
21 A. Well, but the -- nobody -- that 21 MR. GOLDFEIN: And you, therefore,
22 may be his opinion, but the vast bulk of the 22 were aware of his testimony about this
23 research and the reporting is -- including the 23 document and what he testified to.
24 last Zurich International Conference 24 MR. GRYGIEL: I'm aware of what he
25 Statement, is that it's premature to suggest 25 testified to.
Page 159 Page 161

1 that there's a link. 1 MR. GOLDFEIN: Do not misrepresent
2 Q. Commissioner, you're aware 2 to the Commissioner what Dr.
3 obviously that CTE is one form of cognitive 3 Echemendia's view is with regard to this
4 impairment, correct? 4 testimony.
5 A. Yes. 5 MR. GRYGIEL: With respect, Shep,
6 Q. And you're aware that there are 6 I haven't --
7 other long-term neurological degenerative 7 MR. GOLDFEIN: With this document.
8 diseases besides CTE, right? 8 MR. GRYGIEL: I haven't said
9 A. Absolutely. 9 anything about what Dr. Echemendia --
10 Q. And they include, for example, 10 MR. GOLDFEIN: You've mischar --
11 dementia. 11 yes. You've had a line of questions
12 A. Yes. 12 that have mischaracterized -- when
13 Q. And they include Alzheimer's 13 there's testimony from Dr. Echemendia on
14 disease. 14 this very document, you have
15 A. Yes. 15 mischaracterized to the Commissioner
16 Q. Any they include ALS. 16 what Dr. Echemendia said about this
17 A. Yes. Lewy Bodies. 17 document and the word "link."
18 Q. Right. L-E-W-Y. 18 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
19 And they include Parkinsonian 19 Q. I'm simply asking about this
20 symptoms, correct? 20 e-mail and whether --
21 A. Yes. 21 A. You see, but -- do you know who
22 Q. And they include a spectrum of 22 Jeff Klein is, by the way?
23 neurocognitive impairments that are numbered 23 Q. Yes. He writes for The New York
24 1.5 to 2.0, for example. 24 Times?

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1 1 professionals and practitioners have found to
2 2 be the case. Because I know -- and I think it
3 3 may have been in the Zurich report -- there's
4 You know, when you parse an e-mail 4 a concern about over-alarming people and
5 that somebody's writing in a longer context, 5 suggesting to them things that may not be true
6 it doesn't necessarily reflect the view. And 6 with respect to the science, but also the fact
7 I'm not sure that this isn't drafting as 7 that you might be at some risk somewhere down
8 opposed to what he believes because that 8 the road is something we've been warning
9 sentence is obviously modified substantially 9 players about for years.
10 by the others. And it may be that Klein's the 10 Q. For example, have the players ever
11 one who said that to me. But, again, you'd 11 been specifically warned, to your knowledge,
12 have to ask him that. 12 that repeated head hits can cause
13 MR. GOLDFEIN: Counsel, did he not 13 neurodegenerative diseases including CTE?
14 testify that a link has been -- as to 14 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
15 the word "made," he testified under oath 15 of the question.
16 that the word made meant "asserted." 16 A. Those exact words have not been
17 Didn't he, at his deposition? 17 used to my knowledge. However, the players
18 MR. GRYGIEL: Yeah. And I'm 18 have been warned and educated that repeated
19 asking about this e-mail. 19 head hits are serious and there may be a
20 MR. GOLDFEIN: And you're asking 20 long-term risk of something because nobody
21 the Commissioner about an e-mail 21 knows. And what's also interesting is we
22 misleadingly suggesting what Dr. 22 haven't discussed all the potential other
23 Echemendia meant and misleading the 23 factors. Maybe a head hit as an adult is
24 Commissioner with your questioning. 24 different than a head hit as a teenager before
25 MR. GRYGIEL: I haven't asked the 25 they ever get to us. Maybe there are other
Page 163 Page 165

1 Commissioner anything about what Dr. 1 factors. Maybe some people have a genetic
2 Echemendia said. 2 predisposition and others don't.
3 MR. GOLDFEIN: I'll object and 3 There's a whole host of things
4 move to strike all that testimony. 4 that the medical community is telling us that
5 A. Well, what I'm saying here is I 5 they don't know. And so they're not warning
6 don't think he's asserting a finding of fact 6 because they don't believe that there's a
7 or an opinion that there is a link. Okay? 7 basis to warn.
8 If, in fact, he tested that it's asserted, 8 Q. So that I have my record clear,
9 9 Commissioner, I just asked about CTE and a
10 10 specific warning. Now I'm going to ask the
11 11 same question with a slightly different
12 There is no link. You know that. 12 diagnosis.
13 You've seen all the research and all the data. 13 Has the National Hockey League
14 There's no medical or scientific certainty 14 ever issued a warning to its players at any
15 that concussions lead to CTE. 15 time that repeated head hits might possibly
16 Q. Focusing then just on CTE, 16 cause Alzheimer's disease?
17 Commissioner, would the National Hockey League 17 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
18 need scientific certainty, 100 percent 18 of the question.
19 epidemiological cause and effect, before it 19 A. First of all, the communications
20 warned the players that repeated head hits 20 that we have are through the Players'
21 caused CTE? 21 Association. The Players' Association is
22 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 22 responsible and takes control over what's
23 of the question. 23 communicated to the players.
24 A. I would want to have the medical 24 The players have for a long period
25 community saying that this is what they as 25 of time been given information that says that

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1 there is a potential from concussions of -- 1 of the question. Asked and answered.
2 potential risk long term of something. But 2 A. When the experts in the field tell
3 nobody knows what that something is, which is 3 us that that would be a prudent thing to do
4 the same answer I gave you to the prior 4 because I'm not a doctor, okay? When they
5 question. The same thing applies to 5 tell us that that's the prudent and
6 Alzheimer's. 6 appropriate thing to do and the Players'
7 Q. And I take it the same thing would 7 Association agrees that that's the message
8 apply to Parkinson's disease. 8 they want delivered to the players, that's
9 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 9 when you consider doing that.
10 of the question. 10 Q. Has the NHL ever consulted Dr.
11 Q. That the NHL has never proposed a 11 Cantu about the cause-and-effect issue you're
12 warning to the players that said, Look, nobody 12 talking about?
13 knows for sure, but one of the potential 13 A. Yes.
14 outcomes here is Parkinson's disease from 14 Q. And has the NHL --
15 repeated head hits. 15 A. "Consult" is not the right word.
16 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 16 We've met with them and had discussions with
17 of the question. 17 them. Consult would be -- that to me implies
18 A. And are you suggesting that that 18 an ongoing relationship with financial
19 would be a responsible warning to give when 19 remuneration. We have met with them and
20 there's no evidence of that? 20 spoken to them.
21 Q. Yes, I am. Actually. 21 Q. And what did Dr. Cantu tell you
22 A. If that's what your case is based 22 about this cause and effect?
23 on, good luck. 23 A. That it's not established.
24 Q. It's not all my case is based on. 24 Certainly in hockey.
25 But I'm simply asking you, you've never given 25 Q. Has he told you that it's been
Page 167 Page 169

1 a warning -- 1 observed?
2 A. I've answered the question. I've 2 A. I don't understand what that means
3 told you the warning that we've given. Not 3 and I don't think he has.
4 we've given. That the Players' Association 4 I think he was very clear, in
5 and we have given. 5 fact, that he knew what we were doing, he was
6 Q. You'd agree with me that that 6 pleased with what we were doing, and that the
7 warning talks about potential long-term 7 state of the evidence -- and it was a meeting
8 effects. 8 that I had with him and Dr. McKee over the
9 A. That there's a potential because 9 fact that they have what they called I think a
10 nobody knows for sure. Potential of risk. 10 biased sample, not big enough sample, and that
11 Okay? Nobody -- to this day, as we sit here 11 while some people -- some people may believe
12 today, nobody knows for sure from a medical 12 that there's a link, nobody's been able to
13 and scientific standpoint. And you know that. 13 establish it.
14 There is no link that you can establish. And 14 Q. So you've spoken with both Dr.
15 you know that. 15 Cantu and McKee?
16 Q. The question is a little bit 16 A. Yes.
17 different here, Commissioner. I'm looking 17 Q. How many times?
18 here when the NHL decides to warn about 18 A. Me personally, I believe once.
19 something as opposed to when it doesn't. 19 Q. And that was with both doctors?
20 What level of certainty would you 20 A. Yes.
21 as the Commissioner need before you said I 21 Q. How long did the meeting last?
22 really want to see the players get warned that 22 A. I don't recall. Probably an hour.
23 repeated head hits might lead to one form or 23 Hour and a half.
24 another of neurodegenerative disease? 24 Q. When was it, Commissioner?
25 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 25 A. 2012 or '13.

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Page 170 Page 172

1 Q. What spurred the meeting? 1 we hire somebody else, then they'd be working
2 THE COURT REPORTER: What? 2 for us. So they're independent. The people
3 Q. Bad question. 3 that we have.
4 What led you to have the meeting? 4 Q. So it's your view that you do have
5 A. I could be flip and say my 5 independent bodies who are producing objective
6 analytic tendencies that you referred to. But 6 knowledge for the long-term effects of
7 I believe that the Players' Association and 7 concussions?
8 League representatives, Concussion Working 8 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
9 Group, went to meet with them. Mr. Shanahan 9 of the question.
10 went to meet with them. And then I offered to 10 A. The answer is yes and it's
11 meet with them as well to discuss what was 11 consistent with the people who you would
12 going on. 12 categorize as independent. I mean, if you
13 And part of that was in the 13 look -- if you look at the Zurich report from
14 context of that Mr. Nawinsky, who's affiliated 14 the conference, there are lots of people
15 with them, was engaging in what they confirmed 15 including the people who are working with us
16 to me in the meeting was hyperbole in the 16 as consultants on that report including Cantu
17 public media. 17 and Tator and a whole bunch of others.
18 And I wanted to find out based on 18 Q. That reminds me, did you ever
19 what everybody was saying from the so-called 19 speak yourself with Dr. Tator?
20 horse's mouth what their view was. 20 A. I may have.
21 Q. Apart from Drs. Cantu and McKee 21 Q. Did you speak with him about the
22 have you personally ever met with Dr. Michael 22 question of concussions?
23 Cusimano concerning the issue of the 23 A. I think -- the last conversation I
24 concussion and long-term effects? 24 think was him asking us to give him some money
25 A. Don't recall. 25 to sponsor one of his symposiums.
Page 171 Page 173

1 Q. Have you ever personally ever 1 Q. And did the League do that?
2 spoken with Dr. Kevin Guskiewicz? 2 A. Yes.
3 MR. GOLDFEIN: Guskiewicz. 3 Q. Did you attend the symposium?
4 MR. GRYGIEL: Guskiewicz. Sorry. 4 A. I did not, but I believe Ms. Grand
5 It's my Eastern European background. 5 did, but I'm not a hundred percent certain.
6 A. Not that I recall. I may have. I 6 You'd have to ask her.
7 don't recall such a meeting. 7 Q. Did you get the materials from it?
8 Q. Have you ever spoken with Dr. 8 A. I don't recall.
9 Stewart? 9 Q. Coming back to this question of
10 A. Who? 10 warning, and you say it would be irresponsible
11 Q. Paul Stewart. 11 to warn.
12 A. Not that I recall. I may have. I 12 A. Um-hum.
13 don't recall. 13 Q. When you say "irresponsible" --
14 Q. Have you ever suggested to anybody 14 A. Others have a said -- I said
15 that the NHL should get an outside body of 15 others have told us that it would be
16 independent medical experts to look at the 16 irresponsible to warn.
17 question of the long-term effects of 17 Q. What would be irresponsible about
18 concussions as opposed to an NHL-affiliated 18 it, Commissioner?
19 group and an NHLPA-affiliated group? 19 A. Well, you're making people who are
20 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 20 earning a livelihood concerned about how they
21 of the question. 21 earn their livelihood and their ability to
22 A. I don't even understand the 22 earn their livelihood and it may cause them to
23 question. Any -- the people we have as our 23 jeopardize their livelihood.
24 consultants are outside third-party 24 Q. Has anybody ever discussed that
25 consultants that we hire to work with us. If 25 with the National Hockey League PA?

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1 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 1 A. I think the information that we've
2 of the question. You're talking about 2 sent out, particularly with the FAQ, has
3 CTE now. 3 basically said that. It might not be in the
4 MR. GRYGIEL: I'm talking simply 4 identical words you've used, but it's there.
5 about giving a -- let me be precise. 5 And, by the way, there have been
6 A. But what we can -- 6 other things -- there was a video in 2000 on
7 MR. GOLDFEIN: Let him be precise 7 TSN called Think First, an hour-long video,
8 in his question. 8 which talked about potential long-term risks
9 Q. Or more precise. I'll try my 9 and the importance of concussions.
10 best. 10 We made a video with the Players'
11 A. Okay. 11 Association -- I don't know -- 2006 or 2000 --
12 Q. Let's talk about giving a warning 12 somewhere in that range. We made another
13 to the National Hockey League players with or 13 video a couple years later with the players
14 without the PA about the risk of neurological 14 involved.
15 degenerative diseases resulting from repeated 15 So we've been appropriate in terms
16 head hits. 16 of what the Players' Association and the
17 A. We've been en -- 17 medical community believes we should be
18 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 18 communicating.
19 of the question as compound. 19 Q. Since we mentioned Dr.
20 A. We have been engaged on this 20 Echemendia's testimony, I will represent to
21 important subject in conjunction, 21 you what I do recall he testified, and that
22 cooperatively, with the Players' Association. 22 was that the reason he said, among others, not
23 23 to warn players of the potential CTE impact of
24 24 repeated head hits was that it might cause
25 25 depression or anxiety or some other
Page 175 Page 177

1 1 psychological disturbance.
2 2 A. And it -- wait a minute.
3 3 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object -- hold it.
4 4 Hold it.
5 5 MR. GRYGIEL: If you've got it,
6 6 I'd be happy to read it.
7 7 A. Well, but wait a minute. So he's
8 8 suggesting that giving that warning would have
9 9 effects --
10 10 MR. GOLDFEIN: He said -- well,
11 11 hold it. Just hold up. Okay? James is
12 12 here, was at that deposition, and his
13 13 recollection is he said that --
14 14 MR. KEYTE: It's both.
15 15 MR. GOLDFEIN: -- it's both. The
16 16 science being incomplete and inclusive,
17 17 and that it --
18 18 A. Oh, by the way, that's what I was
19 Q. Has the PA specifically said, 19 going to say.
20 Commissioner, we have no interest in warning 20 MR. GOLDFEIN: I'm sorry.
21 players that there may possibly be the 21 A. Why would you risk giving somebody
22 long-term effects of neurological degenerative 22 depression and the other things you've
23 disease from repeated head hits? 23 referred to on something where the science is
24 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 24 incomplete?
25 of the question. 25 Q. Has any --

612.338.3376
Page 178 Page 180

1 MR. GOLDFEIN: Counsel, I have no 1 A. We're not football. We're not
2 objection to your asking questions about 2 boxing.
3 what another witness has testified to, 3 What was the third one you used
4 but you should have the transcript 4 besides those?
5 available and use it. 5 MR. GOLDFEIN: Rugby.
6 MR. GRYGIEL: Fair enough. 6 Q. Rugby.
7 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 7 A. Rugby. We're not rugby.
8 Q. Apart from this anxiety and 8 And, in fact, Drs. Cantu and McKee
9 depression and the lack of science being 9 specifically said "We're not them."
10 complete, is there any other basis not to warn 10 And so the fact of the matter is
11 players that they're at risk for long-term 11 you're asserting something because you need
12 neurodegenerative diseases from repeated head 12 for your purposes to establish a link that
13 hits? 13 doesn't exist.
14 A. The fact that there's no science 14 And if your premise is we should
15 to support it. 15 be warning people of something that doesn't
16 Q. You're aware that a number of 16 exist, I would respectfully submit that isn't
17 National Hockey League players post-mortem 17 the real world.
18 have been found to have CTE as one example of 18 Q. Focusing on what you testified to
19 neurodegenerative disease. 19 a moment ago, about the irresponsibility of
20 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 20 the warning, who specifically said it would be
21 of the question. 21 irresponsible to issue that warning?
22 A. It's a -- as Dr. McKee said, it is 22 A. I've heard that from more than one
23 a -- I think she said a selected bias sample. 23 source. It may have been McKee or Cantu. It
24 It's not very numerical. And we don't know 24 may be in the Zurich report. It may have been
25 what if any other factors were involved. 25 Ruben Echemendia. I don't remember
Page 179 Page 181

1 You know, it's conceivable that if 1 specifically. But I'm pretty comfortable that
2 you've never had a concussion, if you live 2 people believe that. People who have
3 long enough you might have CTE just because 3 knowledge of the area believe that.
4 it's a degenerative disease. We don't know 4 Q. Can you tell me whether it was in
5 that that's not the case. 5 written form or oral form?
6 Q. So what you're saying is that 6 A. Oh, it would have been -- well, if
7 because there is this uncertainty about its 7 it's in the Zurich report then it would be in
8 precise causes and effect in every case you're 8 written form.
9 not in a position to give the warning. 9 Q. Do you know if it's in the Zurich
10 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 10 report?
11 of the question. It's a 11 A. I don't have it committed to
12 mischaracterization. That's your 12 memory. If you have a copy I'll be happy to
13 testimony, Counsel. 13 take a look at it.
14 A. What you're saying is backwards. 14 Q. Have you read the Zurich reports?
15 You're saying because there's no certainty 15 A. Yes.
16 we're not giving the warning. 16 Q. All four of them?
17 Because there's no certainty why 17 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the
18 would you give a warning? 18 form -- well --
19 Q. And the answer to that, 19 A. At least the last two.
20 Commissioner -- and I'll answer that 20 Q. How many of the authors of those
21 question -- is because there have been 21 reports have you spoken with personally about
22 observations of repeated head hits leading to 22 the conclusions?
23 traumatic encephalopathy in football players, 23 MR. GOLDFEIN: Counsel, you're
24 in boxers, in rugby players, and in hockey 24 not -- when saw at the Zurich report,
25 players. 25 you're referring to the --

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1 MR. GRYGIEL: The consensus 1 moving?
2 statement. 2 A. I don't recall.
3 MR. GOLDFEIN: The consensus of 3 Q. Have you ever spoken with Dr.
4 the International Convention on 4 Guskiewicz?
5 Concussion in Sport. 5 A. Who?
6 MR. GRYGIEL: Right. 6 Q. Guskiewicz.
7 MR. GOLDFEIN: They didn't all 7 MR. GOLDFEIN: Guskiewicz.
8 occur in Zurich. 8 Q. Guskiewicz.
9 A. The last one was in Zurich. 9 A. Not that I recall.
10 MR. GOLDFEIN: You understood 10 Q. Have you ever spoken with Dr.
11 that, okay. 11 McKee about whether or not football was
12 A. That's my shorthand. Yeah, one 12 sufficiently similar to hockey for purposes --
13 was in Vienna. 13 A. She was at the same meeting. And
14 Q. Prague. 14 there was concurrences between the two of them
15 A. Prague, yes. They travel well. 15 that we're not that.
16 I'd have to look at the list of 16 Q. Are you aware of -- have you
17 people on it. But, you know, I think Cantu is 17 delegated Dr. Echemendia to take a look and
18 on it. Tator's on it. Echemendia's on it. 18 see whether or not football is sufficiently
19 And there may be one or two others. The 19 analogous to hockey for purposes of the forces
20 Players' Association -- Rizos I think may be 20 to the head that what's happening in football
21 on it, the Players' Association's consultant. 21 ought to be looked at for hockey?
22 Q. So apart from this memory about 22 A. I don't tell --
23 who told you it was irresponsible to issue 23 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
24 this warning, are there any more specifics, 24 of the question.
25 Commissioner, you can give me about the 25 A. I don't tell Dr. Echemendia what
Page 183 Page 185

1 alleged irresponsibility of issuing it? 1 to do other than to do what he thinks to do to
2 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 2 do the appropriate things in advising us and
3 of the question. 3 learning what he needs to learn.
4 A. I think as a matter of common 4 Q. Are you aware of any empirical
5 sense you shouldn't be warning people about 5 basis, scientific basis, to say that the
6 things that you don't know are accurate. 6 forces in rugby differ so significantly from
7 Q. A moment ago you said we're not 7 those in hockey that the two sports are not
8 football. 8 comparable for concussion analysis?
9 A. We're not football. 9 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
10 Q. Are you aware of any study that 10 of the question.
11 compares the rotational forces in concussion 11 A. I'm not aware.
12 in football with those in hockey? 12 Q. Let me show you, Commissioner,
13 A. Dr. Cantu told me we're not 13 what we are going to mark as -- bear with me
14 football. 14 here. I think this should be number 12. Yep.
15 Q. Did Dr. Cantu tell you why he said 15 (Bettman Exhibit 12, e-mail dated
16 that? 16 9/24/2007 bearing production numbers
17 A. Yeah. Because the number of 17 NHL2197608 through NHL2197617, marked
18 repeated blows between hockey and football is 18 for identification as of this date.)
19 completely different. They're completely -- 19 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
20 Q. Did Dr. -- 20 Q. I'm going to mark as Exhibit
21 A. I'm sorry? 21 Number 12. You'll see it is a multi-page
22 Q. Did Dr. Cantu discuss with you the 22 document. At the upper left-hand corner it
23 differences in the force of a concussion in 23 bears the name Willem Meeuwisse.
24 hockey compared to in football given the 24 A. Um-hum.
25 different speeds at which the players are 25 Q. It's dated 9/24/2007. And the

612.338.3376
Page 186 Page 188

1 Bates numbers are NHL2197608 through -617. 1 he's wrong?
2 A. Okay. 2 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
3 Q. Have you ever seen this document 3 of the question.
4 before? 4 A. I have no basis to assume that
5 A. I don't recall. 5 he's right.
6 Q. You'll see it says the subject is 6 Q. So the answer to my question is
7 Orange County Register Stories From Today. 7 no.
8 And if you take a look through, I 8 A. I answered your question.
9 think I can shorten this up a little bit, 9 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
10 there is some question about whether or not 10 of the question.
11 the article in the Orange County Register had 11 Q. I'm not sure you did. You
12 statistically accurate data. 12 answered it with a statement.
13 A. Um-hum. 13 A. That's the way you answer
14 Q. And that's what Mr. Daly and Dr. 14 questions.
15 Meeuwisse are discussing. 15 Q. I think it was a yes-or-no
16 A. Okay. 16 question.
17 Q. Does this refresh your memory 17 MR. GOLDFEIN: He doesn't believe
18 about the Orange County Register article at 18 so. He disagrees. I object to the form
19 all? 19 of the question and the argumentative
20 A. No. 20 nature of your comments to the
21 Q. If you would kindly turn to the 21 Commissioner.
22 third page in, Commissioner. 22 Q. I don't mean to be argumentative
23 A. Um-hum. 23 at all. I mean to be respectful. I'm simply
24 Q. The second paragraph from the 24 trying to get an answer to my question.
25 bottom you'll see there is a reference to a 25 A. I don't know what Dr. Guskiewicz
Page 187 Page 189

1 Dr. James Kelly of the University of Colorado. 1 is basing that on. And based on everything I
2 A. Okay. 2 know and have been told, I don't believe
3 Q. Have you ever spoken with Dr. 3 that's an accurate statement.
4 Kelly? 4 MR. GOLDFEIN: It's also -- the
5 A. I don't recall. 5 statement itself shows -- he says "I
6 Q. Are you aware of whether Dr. 6 would expect" so it's not a statement of
7 Echemendia ever has? 7 fact. It's a statement of speculation.
8 A. No. 8 I object to your asking the Commissioner
9 Q. Turning to the next page, you will 9 to speculate on speculation.
10 see there is a reference in the middle of the 10 Q. Underneath that it says: "The
11 page to a 2005 University of North Carolina 11 Register study found that NHL players are five
12 study. 12 times more likely to suffer a concussion than
13 Do you see that? 13 NFL athletes."
14 A. Yes. 14 Are you aware of --
15 Q. Have you ever looked at that 15
16 study? 16
17 A. No. 17
18 Q. Underneath that you'll see there 18
19 is a reference to Dr. Guskiewicz. 19
20 Do you see that? 20
21 A. Yes. 21
22 Q. And he said, "I would expect those 22
23 numbers for NHL players to be much the same." 23
24 Are you aware of any basis other 24
25 than what you say Dr. Cantu told you to say 25

612.338.3376
Page 190 Page 192

1 1 at the NHL level, correct?
2 2 A. Yeah. Well, but that's why we put
3 3 in a program to educate, to counsel, with the
4 4 Players' Association to get away from
5 5 underreporting to the extent that there may
6 6 have been.
7 7 Q. Finally, in this article there's
8 8 some description of Jeff Beukeboom -- you know
9 9 who Jeff Beukeboom is, don't you?
10 10 A. Yes.
11 11 Q. Have you ever spoken to him about
12 12 his concussion symptoms?
13 13 A. I don't recall.
14 14 Q. Have your ever spoken with any of
15 15 the named plaintiffs in this case about their
16 16 concussion symptoms?
18 Q. Turning to the next page over, at 18 of the question.
19 the Bates number, Commissioner, 612. 19 A. I don't believe I have. If I
20 A. Okay. 20 have, please refresh my recollection.
21 Q. And you'll see the fourth 21 Q. Have you ever spoken with Jeff
22 paragraph down refers to a Dr. Karen 22 Kutcher about concussion symptoms?
23 Johnston -- 23 A. Who's he?
24 A. Yes. 24 Q. He is a neurologist consulting
25 Q. -- who has worked extensively with 25 with the NHLPA.
Page 191 Page 193

1 NHL players. 1 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form.
2 Do you know who she is? 2 A. No. I don't believe I have.
3 A. Yes. 3 MR. GOLDFEIN: We're going to need
4 Q. Have you ever spoken with her? 4 to break by 1 because they take the
5 A. Yes. 5 lunch down.
6 Q. Have you spoken with her about 6 THE WITNESS: That's very
7 concussions? 7 important.
8 A. I think so. 8 MR. GRYGIEL: Then now's a good
9 Q. And she says, "There is science 9 time. Yeah.
10 that shows that this is hugely underreported," 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
11 that indefinite pronoun "this" referencing to 11 12:55. We're going off the record.
12 concussions. 12 (Luncheon recess taken at 12:55
13 Had she ever told you that she 13 p.m.)
14 believes concussions are seriously or hugely 14
15 underreported? 15
16 A. Not that I recall, but it's kind 16
17 of odd to use science and underreporting in 17
18 the same sentence. I'm not sure you can 18
19 scientifically prove that there's 19
20 underreporting. You'd have to know that 20
21 there's underreporting and then go back and 21
22 determine whether or not, in fact, there's 22
23 underreporting. 23
24 Q. Of course, your colleague, Mr. 24
25 King, also believed there was underreporting 25

612.338.3376
Page 194 Page 196

1 AFTERNOON SESSION 1 of concussion and, through this, to raise
2 (Time noted: 1:30 p.m.) 2 awareness of both its incidence and potential
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 3 for long-term consequences."
4 1:30. We're back on the record. 4 Have you ever discussed with
5 *** 5 anyone what Mr. Lovell was referring to when
6 GARY B E T T M A N, resumed and 6 he wrote "potential for long-term
7 testified as follows: 7 consequences"?
8 EXAMINATION BY (Cont'd.) 8 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
9 MR. GRYGIEL: 9 of the question. Lacks foundation and
10 Q. Good afternoon, Commissioner. 10 you're reading hearsay into the record.
11 A. Good afternoon. 11 A. Not that I recall.
12 Q. I know you are aware that you are 12 Q. Sitting here today, do you have
13 still under oath. 13 any understanding at all yourself of what
14 Did you look at any documents 14 those long-term consequences are?
15 during the lunch break to refresh your 15 A. My understanding is no better than
16 recollection about any of the issues about 16 that of the medical community which is people
17 which you've been asked? 17 don't know.
18 A. No. 18 Q. Have you followed the settlement
19 Q. Okay. Other than your lawyers, 19 in the National Football League concussion
20 did you speak with anyone about the testimony 20 litigation, Commissioner?
21 that you have given thus far? 21 A. Only generally. I have no inside
22 A. No. 22 information if that's what you're asking me.
23 Q. I'm going to show you, 23 Q. It might have been.
24 Commissioner, what I'm marking as Exhibit 24
25 Number 13. You will see it bears the heading 25
Page 195 Page 197

1 of the NHL at the top with the NHL shield, NHL 1
2 Neuropsychological Testing Project Status 2
3 Report - 1997 through 2002. 3
4 (Bettman Exhibit 13, NHL 4
5 Neuropsychological Testing Project 5
6 Status Report - 1997-2002 December 10, 6
7 2002, marked for identification as of 7
8 this date.) 8
9 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 9
10 Q. You know who Mark Lovell is, do 10
11 you not? 11
12 A. Yes. One of our consultants. 12
13 Q. Have you spoken with Mark Lovell 13
14 about the work he's done on the NHL 14
15 Neuropsychological Testing Project? 15
17 Q. Have you ever been presented with 17
18 any documents that Mr. Lovell has authored 18
19 concerning his work on the concussion project? 19
21 Q. In the second paragraph of this 21
22 document, you will see there is a reference at 22
23 the second sentence of the second paragraph as 23
24 follows: "One of the main aims of this 24
25 project was to promote a greater understanding 25

612.338.3376
Page 198 Page 200

1 1
2 2
3 3
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 10 Q. I'm going to show you what we are
11 11 going to mark in just a second here.
12 12 A. Okay.
13 13 Q. It should be Exhibit Number 14.
14 14 A. If you say so.
15 15 (Bettman Exhibit 14, Clinical
16 16 Practice Guidelines on Concussion
17 17 Treatment and Management in Sport,
18 18 marked for identification as of this
19 19 date.)
21 21 Q. I'm going to show you Exhibit 14.
22 22 You will see this is a multi-page document.
23 23 It does not bear the NHL's production numbers
24 24 on it. The heading is Clinical Practice
25 25 Guidelines on Concussion Treatment and
Page 199 Page 201

1 1 Management in Sport.
2 2 Do you remember looking at this
3 3 document before, sir?
4 4 A. We've already marked this
5 5 document?
6 6 Q. No. In the past I meant.
7 7 A. Oh.
8 8 Q. Poor question.
9 9 A. Oh. I don't recall if I have or I
10 10 haven't.
11 11 Q. I'll represent to you that again
12 12 this is a document at the bottom with Bates
13 13 numbers IM000325.
14 14 A. I see that.
15 15 Q. And they go through 333 at the
16 16 end.
17 17 A. Yes.
18 18 Q. And this came from a third party,
19 19 from Impact's files.
20 20 A. Okay.
21 21 Q. And if you turn to the page that
22 22 ends with the numbers 000329, you will see
23 23 there's the boldfaced heading at the bottom of
24 24 the page, Evaluating Multiple Concussions.
25 25 Do you see the first sentence

612.338.3376
Page 202 Page 204

1 there? 1 A. Um-hum.
2 A. Yes. 2 Q. It goes on to discuss other
3 Q. Are you aware of any warnings NHL 3 potential consequences of multiple
4 players have ever received that one concussion 4 concussions.
5 in a season results in potentially four to six 5 Do you see that there?
6 times more likelihood of sustaining another 6 A. Which is often seen in boxers.
7 concussion? 7 Q. Yes. Cumulative neurological
8 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 8 damage --
9 of the question. 9 A. And we'll agree second impact
10 A. I don't know that that's a fact. 10 syndrome is typically in young people and
11 And, in fact, depending on how and when you've 11 results in death. So it's not anything that
12 been diagnosed and whatever return-to-play 12 we're talking about here.
13 decision was made, I'm not certain that this 13 Q. Well, leaving aside second impact
14 document -- what was the date of this 14 syndrome, do you have any understanding of
15 document, by the way? When was this written? 15 what the cumulative neurological damage
16 Q. This is apparently sometime in 16 referred to here is?
17 2005 because it refers to studies ending in 17 A. No. Because nobody does.
18 2004. 18 Q. And you see it says punch drunk
19 A. Oh, okay. 19 syndrome, right?
20 And, as I said, I haven't seen 20 A. That's what the words say.
21 this document so I'm not in a position to 21 Q. And the NHL has what you have
22 comment on the veracity of this or not. 22 referred to in the past as enforcers, correct?
23 Q. Leaving aside whether or not you 23 A. I didn't use that the word in this
24 agree to the science that I just I read to 24 deposition once.
25 you -- 25 Q. Not in this deposition but
Page 203 Page 205

1 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form. 1 elsewhere you've used it, haven't you?
2 Oh, come on. Object to -- 2 A. I probably have on occasion.
3 A. By the way, you didn't read to me 3 Q. Sure. And that refers to people
4 science. You read to me a sentence in a 4 who fight, correct?
5 document which has yet to be authenticated. 5 A. Sometimes.
6 Q. Are you aware of any warnings -- 6 Q. And you've used it in connection
7 MR. GOLDFEIN: And it's not a 7 with NHL players who primarily fight, correct?
8 statement of science. 8 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
9 Q. Are you aware of any warnings 9 of the question.
10 National Hockey League players have received 10 A. You know, you'd have to give me
11 that suffering more than one concussion in a 11 the context in which I've used it.
12 season puts them at risk four to six times 12 Q. You understand what the word
13 greater of getting another concussion? 13 enforcers means, don't you?
14 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 14 A. Yes, I do. But you're asking me
15 of the question. 15 about my specific use of it and I'm suggesting
16 A. I'm not aware because I'm not sure 16 if you want me to talk about my specific use
17 that that's right. 17 of it, give me the specific time I used it and
18 Q. Okay. If you would turn to the 18 the context and I'll tell you. Have I used
19 next page, Commissioner, the bottom of the 19 the word "enforcers," yes. Have I used it
20 page the number says 6, and it's Bates number 20 potentially with different meanings at
21 that ends in 330. 21 different times, the answer is yes.
22 A. Um-hum. 22 So give me give a context and give
23 Q. You'll see in the second paragraph 23 me a quote and I'll tell you what it means.
24 that begins "In addition to second impact 24 Q. Have you ever seen any study that
25 syndrome..." 25 compares boxers who suffer from punch drunk

612.338.3376
Page 206 Page 208

1 syndrome to NHL fighters? 1 suggest that they are the same.
2 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 2 Q. You're aware, aren't you,
3 of the question. 3 Commissioner, that when boxers get knocked out
4 A. Have I ever seen a study that 4 they're typically suspended from boxing for 30
5 compares boxers -- 5 to 60 days?
6 Q. Um-hum. 6 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
7 A. -- to people who may fight in an 7 of the question.
8 NHL game? 8 A. The force of the punch from
9 Q. Right. 9 somebody grounded on terra firma wearing a
10 A. I'm not aware of any. 10 glove that lets them punch as hard as they
11 Q. Have you ever said such a study 11 want is not the same as the occasional fight
12 would be wise to do? 12 that takes place in our game.
13 A. I've never said that such a study 13 Q. Are you aware of any differences
14 would be wise to do because I'm not sure such 14 in the brains of the NHL enforcers who have
15 a study would be wise to do. 15 been diagnosed with CTE from the brains of the
16 Q. Has anyone from the Concussion 16 boxers who have been diagnosed with CTE?
17 Working Group ever suggested that comparing 17 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
18 documents showing punch drunk syndrome in 18 of the question.
19 boxers to the analyses of fighting in the NHL 19 A. Am I aware of a comparison of the
20 would be productive? 20 brains? Nobody shared that information with
21 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 21 me.
22 of the question. 22 Q. Now, you certainly know who Wade
23 A. In my presence? 23 Belak is, correct?
24 Q. Yeah. 24 A. Yes.
25 A. Not that I recall. 25 Q. And you knew who Rick Rypien was,
Page 207 Page 209

1 Q. Have you ever seen any proposal to 1 correct?
2 do such a study comparing boxers to NHL 2 A. Yes.
3 enforcers? 3 Q. And you knew who Derek Boogaard
4 A. Not that I recall. 4 was, correct?
5 Q. Are you personally aware of any 5 A. Yes.
6 reason to say that concussions that boxers 6 Q. And you know who Steve Montador
7 suffer differ from concussions that NHL 7 is, correct?
8 fighters such as Derek Boogaard suffered? 8 A. Yes.
9 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you know who Bob Colbert is,
10 Q. What is that basis? 10 right?
11 A. The basis is a fight in an NHL 11 A. Yes.
12 game is not the same as to what a professional 12 Q. And these were all people who had
13 or even an amateur boxer does in terms of the 13 more than their share of fights in the
14 repetitive hits to the head, the frequency 14 National Hockey League, right?
15 with which boxers throw punches, the 15 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
16 circumstances, the fact that they're wearing 16 of the question.
17 gloves. 17 A. I don't know what you mean by
18 What takes place in an NHL game is 18 "more than their share."
19 not the same as boxing. 19 Q. They had fights in the National
20 Q. Have you ever seen any scientific 20 Hockey League.
21 study showing that the forces that boxers 21 A. They had fights.
22 incur when they get concussions differ from 22 Q. And you're aware that all of them
23 the forces that NHL fighters incur when they 23 turned out to have evidence of neurological
24 get concussions? 24 damage in their brains akin to that of
25 A. I haven't seen any studies that 25 dementia pugilistica.

612.338.3376
Page 210 Page 212

1 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 1 Q. And turn to the second page,
2 of the question. 2 Commissioner. You'll see --
3 A. I don't know that it is dementia 3 A. Let me start on the first page so
4 pugilistica. The fact of the matter is the 4 I can refresh my recollection.
5 clinical findings are what they are. But 5 Q. Sure. Go ahead.
6 nobody knows whether or not the circumstances 6 (Document review.)
7 leading up to the findings were the same in 7 A. Okay. That's the press release on
8 all cases. 8 page 2.
9 Q. We talked earlier about fighting, 9 Q. And the press release is also, to
10 Commissioner. With the findings in these NHL 10 use a lawyer's term, authentic, correct?
11 players, the five I've just identified to you, 11 A. I believe so.
12 did you ever, sitting there in your office, to 12 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object -- I'm going
13 yourself think, You know what? We really 13 to object to the form of the question.
14 ought to take a better look at what happens to 14 A. It is what it purports to be.
15 these fighters in fights and see whether or 15 Q. That's the definition, right? You
16 not we're letting them suffer long-term brain 16 remember from Evidence.
17 damage? 17 A. Vaguely.
18 A. I think the sample has been too 18 Q. Do you know who wrote that press
19 small. The circumstances of the tragic, 19 release?
20 untimely, and unfortunate deaths, have not 20 A. Some combination of the League and
21 been linked in enough ways or the 21 the Players' Association.
22 circumstances known well enough to draw any 22 Q. The third paragraph says: "We are
23 conclusions. I would respectfully suggest 23 committed to examining in detail the factors
24 that as tragic and as unfortunate as it is, 24 that may have contributed to these events and
25 there isn't even enough circumstantial 25 to determining whether concrete steps can be
Page 211 Page 213

1 evidence to draw any conclusions. 1 taken to enhance player welfare and minimize
2 Q. Your answer made me think of 2 the likelihood of such events taking place."
3 something else. 3 Can you describe for me,
4 A. It's quite all right. 4 Commissioner, what those concrete steps have
5 Q. I'm showing you what we are 5 been?
6 marking as Bettman Exhibit Number 15. 6 A. We retained a firm to evaluate our
7 (Bettman Exhibit 15, Memorandum 7 player programs. Behavioral health --
8 dated September 1, 2011 bearing 8 substance abuse and behavioral health program.
9 production numbers NHL0090546 through 9 It's counseling that we have available to
10 NHL0030547, marked for identification as 10 players and former players. And we wanted to
11 of this date.) 11 see whether or not the resources we were
12 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 12 providing that could lend assistance to
13 Q. You'll see it bears the shield of 13 players or members of their family were
14 the National Hockey League, the caption 14 adequate in obtaining the results we wanted.
15 Memorandum underneath it, and the date 15 Q. Who did you retain?
16 September 1, 2011. It is a memorandum to the 16 A. I don't remember the name of the
17 NHL Board of Governors from Bill Daly, re. 17 firm.
18 Recent Player Tragedies. 18 Q. Was it solely focused on substance
19 You are shown as a c.c. recipient, 19 abuse, Commissioner?
20 correct? 20 A. No. It was the effectiveness of
21 A. Yes. 21 the program as a whole.
22 Q. You don't have any doubt that this 22 Q. Did the NHL in conjunction with
23 is a true copy of a memorandum you received in 23 the NHLPA, as a result of these tragic deaths,
24 the ordinary course of your business, do you? 24 do anything further to re-examine the question
25 A. I have no doubt. 25 of fighting in the League?

612.338.3376
Page 214 Page 216

1 A. I don't believe so. That wasn't 1 middle paragraph to examining in more detail
2 the context of what we were evaluating. 2 the factors that may have contributed to these
3 Q. If you turn to the first page, Mr. 3 three separate tragedies.
4 Daly's memo to the Board of Governors, did you 4 Has the NHL taken any steps to
5 receive any questions yourself, personally, 5 examine in more detail the contributing
6 from any member of the Board of Governors 6 factors?
7 about these recent player tragedies? 7 A. We're not privy to ultimately what
8 A. I don't recall specifically. It 8 the full causes of death were. I think what
9 wouldn't be unusual, in the course of my 9 Bill was referring to, which is really that we
10 ongoing contact with members of the board, to 10 want to ensure, that we're doing everything we
11 have had a conversation around this time. But 11 can to maximize the effectiveness of our
12 I don't have a specific recollection. 12 programs.
13 Q. I'll give you an example. Did 13 Q. Have you spoken with anyone from
14 Mr. -- you know who Tom Cigarran is? 14 the family of Steve Montador?
15 A. Cigarran? 15 A. I do not believe so.
16 Q. Cigarran. 16 Q. Have you spoken with anyone from
17 A. Yes, I do. 17 the family of Rick Rypien?
18 Q. And he's a member of the ownership 18 A. I don't believe so.
19 group of the Nashville Predators? 19 Q. Have you spoken with anyone from
20 A. Yes, he is. 20 the family of Wade Belak?
21 Q. He's a healthcare executive, isn't 21 A. I don't think so. But I don't
22 he? 22 recall. It's conceivable in any of those
23 A. I believe so. 23 cases I did. I just don't recall.
24 Q. Did he call you and say, Gary, 24 Q. Do you recall speaking with anyone
25 this kind of proves my point, we've really got 25 from the family of Derek Boogaard?
Page 215 Page 217

1 to get rid of these head shots in the game? 1 A. I was at an event one night where
2 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 2 I believe they were there, but I'm not a
3 of the question. 3 hundred percent certain.
4 A. I don't know if -- at one point I 4 Q. Am I correct in understanding that
5 think he sent me a letter on the subject but I 5 none of the NHL players who after death have
6 don't know that he made a phone call. 6 been diagnosed with neurodegenerative disease
7 Q. Did you have any discussions about 7 has a family member with whom you've spoken?
8 this memo with Ted Leonsis? 8 A. Well, you're making it sound like
9 A. I don't recall. 9 they died on one day and died of
10 Q. Did you have any discussions about 10 neurodegenerative disease the next day.
11 this memo with Ed Schneider? 11 That's not the sequence here of events. If,
12 A. I don't recall. 12 in fact, they were diagnosed with
13 Q. Did you have any discussions about 13 neurodegenerative disease it would have been
14 this memo with Mario Lemieux? 14 some time afterwards.
15 A. I don't recall. And I don't think 15 Q. Did you ever speak with any member
16 so. 16 of any the families of these men to ask what
17 Q. Did you have any discussions about 17 their behavioral traits were prior to death?
18 this memo with anyone else in the Penguins 18 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the
19 ownership group including Ron Burkle? 19 form --
20 A. I don't recall. 20 A. I don't believe so.
21 Q. Did you have any discussions about 21 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
22 this with anyone from the Molson family in 22 of the question.
23 Montreal? 23 Q. Did these three deaths spur you in
24 A. I don't recall. 24 any way as Commissioner to think, you know, we
25 Q. Mr. Daly's memo refers in the 25 really ought to do a study of our retirees and

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1 see what their mental health is like? 1 through -225. This is unsigned.
2 A. I didn't think that this was a -- 2 A. Yes, it is unsigned.
3 it was tragic. The timing was almost 3 Q. Twenty-three pages.
4 unbelievable in terms of the sequencing. But 4 A. Yes.
5 at the end of the day, I wasn't persuaded that 5 Q. I'd simply like to ask you, if you
6 the sample was such that anybody could 6 would, take look at page 10 of 23.
7 reasonably conclude that this had to do with 7 A. Okay.
8 fighting. Maybe there were other factors. 8
9 Every case may have been different. And so 9
10 the answer is I didn't think that that 10
11 required what you're suggesting. 11
12 Q. You mentioned earlier, and I quote 12
13 "I'm not a doctor." Correct? 13
14 A. That's correct. 14
15 Q. And I take it, you, like me, are 15
16 also not an epidemiologist, correct? 16
17 A. That's correct. 17
18 Q. Has anyone told you what the 18
19 sample size needs to be before you would look 19
20 at these three circumstances as unrelated 20
21 tragedies as opposed to a systemic pattern? 21
22 A. Three, by any basis of anything 22
23 I've ever absorbed in statistics, is 23
24 otherwise -- out of hundreds does not a sample 24
25 make. 25
Page 219 Page 221

1 Q. But my question, sir, was 1
2 different. It was has anybody told you what 2
3 size of a sample you'd need to see? 3
4 A. No. I haven't asked. But, you 4
5 know, it's like one of -- it's like obscenity. 5
6 You know it when you see it as a lay person. 6
7 THE WITNESS: Sixteen. 7
8 MR. GRYGIEL: Thank you. I 8
9 apologize in advance, that won't be the 9
10 last time that happens. 10
11 A. No, no. That's quite all right. 11
12 (Bettman Exhibit 16, Minutes of 12
13 the Meeting of the General Managers Boca 13
14 Beach Club - Boca Raton, Florida March 14
15 8-10, 2010, marked for identification as 15
16 of this date.) 16
18 Q. I'm showing you number 16, sir. 18
19 It is the minutes of the meeting of the 19
20 general managers, Boca Beach Club, March 8-10, 20
21 2010. 21
22 A. Um-hum. 22
23 Q. Ask you, please, to take a look at 23
24 it while I identify it for the record. The 24
25 Bates numbers of this document are NHL0143203 25

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1 1 that this is an e-mail you received in the
2 2 regular course and sent in the regular course
3 3 of your business, do you?
4 4 MR. GOLDFEIN: I'm going to
5 5 object. Are you representing this is
6 6 the totality of the e-mail page?
7 7 MR. GRYGIEL: Yes. This is one I
8 8 actually asked that question of our
9 9 documents people. And this is exactly
10 10 as it was produced.
11 11 A. Okay.
12 12 Q. And you'll see Mr. Dreger here in
13 Q. If I could show what I'm going to 13 this January 9, 2008 e-mail is asking you a
14 mark as Exhibit Number 17. 14 question, right?
15 A. No, you just marked 17. 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Eighteen. 16 Q. And he says: "Hypothetically, if
17 (Bettman Exhibit 18, e-mail dated 17 a senior member of the Flyers management team
18 1/9/2008 bearing production numbers 18 said publicly on camera that Jason Blake 'had
19 NHL0025551 through NHL00025552, marked 19 it coming' in reference to the sucker-punch
20 for identification as of this date.) 20 thrown by Downey, would that cause distress?"
21 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 21 Steve Downey is the Downey
22 Q. You know who Darcy -- Darren 22 referred to, correct?
23 Dreger is? 23 A. Um-hum.
24 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you're aware he's a player in
25 Q. Who is he? 25 the National Hockey League?
Page 247 Page 249

1 A. He's a commemorator for TSN. 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And he has spoken with you from 2 Q. And the senior member of the
3 time to time about issues in the League? 3 Fliers management team referred to here is
4 A. Yes. 4 Bobby Clarke, isn't it?
5 Q. He asks you for comment? 5 A. Apparently.
6 A. Sometimes. 6 Q. And you respond and say: "Between
7 Q. And you're aware he's had in the 7 us, and as a matter of theory, don't we want
8 past numerous conversations with Mr. Campbell 8 intensity and rivalry? We'd need to see
9 looking for comment. 9 context/who, et cetera. Perhaps; perhaps not.
10 A. I assume he has. 10 A big help, huh?"
11 Q. Does Mr. Campbell speak with you 11 Politely I can see you sort of
12 about his conversations with Mr. Dreger? 12 gave him a hedged answer.
13 A. Not always. 13
14 Q. Do you speak with Mr. Campbell 14
15 about your conversations with Mr. Dreger? 15
16 A. Not always. 16
17 Q. I'm going to show you an e-mail 17
18 chain and it's between you and the 18
19 aforementioned Mr. Dreger. We've marked it as 19
20 Exhibit Number 18. I'll ask you to please 20
21 take a look at it. 21
22 The first question is you've seen 22
23 this document before, haven't you? 23
24 A. I don't recall. 24
25 Q. You don't have any reason to doubt 25

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7 Q. Just give me a second to get 7
8 organized here. 8
9 A. Take your time. It's your time. 9
10 Q. As they say. 10
11 A. Nineteen. 11
12 Q. Thank you. 12
13 A. It's all right. 13
14 (Bettman Exhibit 19, e-mail dated 14
19 19
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24 24 MR. GRYGIEL: In the interest of
25 25 mercy for certain considerations I'd
Page 299 Page 301

1 1 like to take five here.
2 2 THE WITNESS: Sure.
3 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
4 4 3:12. We're going off the record.
5 5 (Recess taken.)
6 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
7 7 3:28. We're back on the record.
8 8 THE WITNESS: Twenty-five.
9 9 MR. GRYGIEL: Thank you.
10 10 (Bettman Exhibit 25, Hits to the
11 11 Head Analysis General Mangers' Meeting
12 12 March 8, 2010 bearing production numbers
13 13 NHL0120323 through NHL0120384, marked
14 14 for identification as of this date.)
16 16 Q. Showing you now, Commissioner,
17 17 what we are marking as a document number 25,
18 18 Hits to the Head Analysis - General Managers
19 19 Meeting, March the 8th, 2010.
20 20 Prior to this hits to the head
21 21 analysis, had you ever in your tenure as
22 22 Commissioner seen such an analysis of hits to
23 23 the head or is this the first one?

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1 A. I think when the Industry Analysis 1 glass before it was introduced into certain of
2 Panel and the video analysis was going on, 2 the Leagues' arenas to determine whether or
3 that was part of a broader study. This 3 not it was safe for players?
4 presentation obviously was focused solely on 4 A. I don't recall.
5 hits to the head. 5 Q. You're aware, of course, that
6 Q. You said Industry -- you meant 6 after the seamless glass was introduced, there
7 Injury Analysis Panel? 7 were complaints that it was too rigid,
8 A. Isn't that what I said? 8 correct?
9 Q. Maybe you did. 9 A. I seem to recall that, yes.
10 MR. GOLDFEIN: No, I think you 10 Q. In fact, do you remember that
11 said "industry." 11 there was a question of whether or not the
12 A. I'm sorry. 12 injuries suffered in those arenas were
13 Q. I'm just keeping the record clear. 13 disproportionate to the number of player
14 It's fine. 14 exposures because of the rigidity of the
15 A. No, no, no. My bad. Okay. 15 glass?
16 Q. I'd like to ask you if you would 16 A. Yes. There was some belief that
17 be so kind -- first of all, do you know who 17 that was the case.
18 put this document together? 18 Q. And do you remember this being
19 A. It was probably the effort of a 19 discussed at general managers' meetings?
20 number of people, particularly from the Hockey 20 A. I believe it came up.
21 Operations Department. It's conceivable that 21 Q. If you turn to page 23, you'll see
22 the guts of putting it together, meaning 22 it says 1999/2000. Clubs move to flexible
23 getting it on paper, may have been done by 23 glass boards.
24 Gary Meagher. While he runs the 24 A. Um-hum.
25 Communications Department, he's in the Toronto 25 Q. Glass/boards.
Page 303 Page 305

1 office where Hockey Operations is and when it 1 A. It was still the seamless system.
2 comes to laying things out for presentation, I 2 Q. Right. It says: "A handful of
3 know he helps them a lot. So I couldn't tell 3 clubs begin the process of retrofitting with
4 you exactly who did it, but I wouldn't be 4 Check Flex board and glass system."
5 surprised if Mr. Meagher, while this is not 5 A. Yes.
6 his area of expertise, was the one who 6 Q. Was there a League requirement
7 facilitated it. 7 that the arenas that had the rigid seamless
8 Q. If you would turn to the page that 8 glass retrofit this way?
9 is numbered 22 in the lower right-hand corner, 9 A. I believe at some point there was.
10 and it's the Bates number that ends with 344, 10 Q. Do you know when that was?
11 it's under the broad caption, Hits to the Head 11 A. Not exactly. It would probably be
12 Time Line 1995 through 2010. 12 in this report. I think at some point we were
13 A. Okay. Can I -- let me thumb 13 able to look at the injury data and determine
14 through this for a second. 14 there were more injuries in the seamless
15 Q. Sure. By all means. Sure. 15 buildings than the acrylic. And I think at
16 (Document review.) 16 some point we required everybody, at least on
17 A. Okay. 17 the ends, to go to Check Flex, which was
18 Q. You've had a chance to look at it? 18 basically a spring-loaded system that would
19 A. I've skimmed through it. 19 cause the boards and glass to move.
20 Q. If you would turn to page number 20
21 22 you've got in front of you, you will see 21
22 the 1995/96 entry, Seamless glass introduced, 22
23 correct? 23
24 A. Yes. 24
25 Q. Was any testing done on seamless 25

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1 1 it.
2 2 Q. And it was chaired by Dave Dryden,
3 3 right?
4 4 A. That makes sense, yes.
5 Q. Did the players get any warning 5 Q. And Dave's a very knowledgeable
6 that the rinks that had the seamless glass 6 hockey guy?
7 were more dangerous places to play? 7 A. So they say.
8 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to form. 8 Q. Former player?
9 A. Well, I don't know that we knew 9 A. Yes.
10 that they were more dangerous places to play. 10 Q. And there were team doctors on
11 I do believe at some point the injury -- at 11 this Injury Analysis Panel?
12 some point it became more than anecdotal that 12 A. I believe so.
13 there were more injuries and that's when we 13 Q. And there were representatives of
14 reacted. 14 the clubs on this panel?
15 Q. So one year after the seamless 15 A. I believe so. And the Players'
16 glass was introduced, November 1997, you got 16 Association.
17 concern raised at a general managers' meeting 17 Q. And trainers as well, right?
18 as page 22 tells us. 18 A. You'd have to look at the minutes
19 A. Yes. 19 of the meeting. I have no reason to doubt
20 Q. At that point was there any 20 what you're telling me.
21 thought given on your part to maybe we should 21 Q. Okay. Do you remember what
22 warn the players that these rinks are places 22 happened with this proposal about a discussion
23 that are more dangerous than the others? 23 for a new head checking rule?
24 A. Actually, if it was -- if the 24 Let me ask a better question.
25 players felt that the boards were more rigid, 25 Did anybody draft one?
Page 307 Page 309

1 they would know that. But, again, that was 1 A. No. I think it suggested
2 when I think we began keeping track of where 2 discussion. I don't --
3 the injuries were taking place, part of the 3 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection. Yeah.
4 injury analysis that we were doing to see 4 A. It didn't say adopt. It said
5 whether or not there were more injuries in the 5 discuss.
6 seamless systems. 6 Q. Did you see any -- did you
7 Q. If you would turn to the page 7 participate in any such discussions?
8 numbered 28, at the lower right-hand corner, 8 A. I don't recall.
9 under the Hits to the Head Time Line again 9 Q. Did you see any drafts of a
10 you'll see there's a description of a head 10 proposed rule that would implement this head
11 check rule, correct? 11 check rule?
12 A. Which page are you on? 12 A. Not that I recall.
13 Q. I'm sorry. It's the page that's 13 Q. When the Rule 48 was enacted in
14 numbered 28. Bates number 350. 14 2010 --
15 A. Okay. 15 A. Are you still on the same page?
16 Okay. 16 Q. Yeah.
17 Q. Do you remember the discussion 17 A. I'm sorry.
18 about this head check rule? 18 Q. In 2010 -- that was in 2010,
19 A. I don't specifically remember it, 19 right?
20 no. 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You remember who the Injury 21 Q. And you and Mr. Daly sent out a
22 Analysis Panel was, don't you? 22 proposal -- a vote -- basically a vote form to
23 A. It was a joint panel between the 23 the various clubs, right?
24 Players' Association and the League. I don't 24 A. Yes, we did.
25 remember the specific individuals that were on 25 Q. And you got that back by fax or

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1 e-mail. 1 Q. So your view is that head hunting
2 A. Yes. 2 was always illegal.
3 Q. And the vote was heavily in favor 3 A. Sure. But what do you mean by
4 of it, right? 4 head hunting? In other words, it was always
5 A. Actually, I think it had to be 5 legal to lay a full check on somebody shoulder
6 unanimous. 6 first. If you weren't leaving your feet, if
7 Q. Right. And it was, wasn't it? 7 you weren't using an elbow, if somebody had
8 A. I believe so. 8 their head down, it was fair game. That's the
9 Q. Did anyone in the Commissioner's 9 way the rule was at the time. It was the
10 office, Mr. Daly, Ms. Grand, anyone, say, You 10 evolution of understanding the injuries that
11 know, in 2001 the IAP proposed something very 11 could come from that that ultimately had us
12 similar to this and it's taken us nine years 12 with Rule 48 take a hit that was legal --
13 to get there. We should have done better? 13 legal, and make it illegal.
14 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 14 Again, this was about discussion.
15 of the question. That's a 15 Nobody was saying do something immediately.
16 mischaracterization of the document. 16 It was discussed, evolved, and get to a point
17 A. Actually, the rule that you're 17 where you could come up -- craft something
18 referring to wasn't this rule. That was a 18 that you could justify, explain, implement,
19 blind-side hit rule is the one that you're 19 and satisfy the -- all the constituent groups.
20 referring to in 2010. So that wasn't this. 20 So among others, the Players' Association
21 21 would be receptive.
22 22
23 23
24 24
25 25
Page 311 Page 313

1 1
2 2
3 3
4 Q. If you would turn, Commissioner, 4 This is -- again, you're talking
5 to page 32, and we're still under the time 5 about a game that's now almost a hundred years
6 line. Topics of Discussion. 6 old, that people live and breath it by playing
7 A. Yep. 7 it and earn their livelihood on it. You have
8 Q. Retaliation and head hunting, 8 to make sure that if you're going to change
9 should it be illegal. 9 rules you're getting your constituents
10 Was it your understanding at any 10 comfortable and agreeable, the least of which
11 time in the National Hockey League that head 11 is the Players' Association, and the players
12 hunting was a legal thing to do? 12 have to buy into it. And without the player
13 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 13 buy-in none of this works.
14 of the question. 14 Q. You remember what the impetus was
15 A. Well, it obviously is illegal. It 15 for new focus on head hits in 2009?
16 was really a question of what the penalty 16 A. Yeah. There was a most
17 would be and making sure that people 17 unfortunate blind-side hit. It was --
18 understood that this wasn't going to be 18 Q. Mike Richards on David Booth?
19 tolerated. 19 A. Yes. I was about to say Cooke on
20 Q. Well, the way this was written 20 Savard.
21 suggests that the question is should it be 21 Q. That followed.
22 illegal. 22 A. That followed. Yes. You have the
23 A. Yeah, well, that's just the way 23 sequence correct.
24 it's been written. I wouldn't read too much 24 Q. Right. And that was something
25 into that. 25 that concerned you as the Commissioner, didn't

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1 it? 1 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
2 A. Yeah. It concerned me on a whole 2 of the question.
3 host of levels. One, obviously, player 3 A. Actually, that's not what I
4 safety; and, two, it looked terrible. 4 testified to. In fact, I said to you exactly
5 Q. And with respect to that you were 5 the contrary. So I would appreciate it if you
6 fully in support at this time of saying even 6 don't mischaracterize what I said.
7 if a hit to the head may be deemed legal 7 What I said was I don't know if it
8 because your arm and shoulder and wrist are 8 was or wasn't needed at the time. The game
9 tucked in, that kind of a hit just has to go. 9 was played at a different speed, different
10 A. Blind-side hit -- we decided -- 10 players, different circumstance, different
11 and I think we had looked at some of the data 11 speed.
12 as it was being developed and everybody was 12 What's clear is at the time we
13 getting comfortable that we didn't need that 13 made the change, it wasn't needed to preserve
14 hit in the game. That as much as we 14 the game then.
15 encouraged physicality and body checking, 15 Q. You've seen statistics,
16 picking the head with the shoulder from the 16 Commissioner, about how many hits there are in
17 blind side wasn't something we needed in the 17 the course of a season?
18 game. 18 A. Yes.
19 And, again, the managers and the 19 Q. And in the last couple of years,
20 players came together and concluded after 20 that number is somewhere in the neighborhood
21 looking at what had happened and looking at 21 of 54,000, isn't it?
22 other video, that this was a sensible rule to 22 A. Yeah. It's about -- I think it's
23 do. 23 about somewhere between 50 and 60 hits a game.
24 Q. You used the word "needed in the 24 Q. Did you ever ask yourself, Gee,
25 game." Were those kind of hits needed prior 25 whiz, if we get rid of the head hits, are we
Page 315 Page 317

1 to the terrible hit of Mike Richards on -- 1 really going to change the game very much with
2 A. No, no. It wasn't needed, but if 2 all of those other hits in the game?
3 you're going to change the rule you had to get 3 A. Well, with all due respect, that's
4 people to buy in that it was not needed 4 rather a simplistic question because it
5 because you're changing the status quo. 5 depends --
6 Q. So your view was that it was never 6 Q. My specialty.
7 needed in the game. 7 A. No, no. It goes to something I
8 A. Well, you know, the fact of the 8 said to you before. It depends on how you
9 matter is the game was played in a different 9 define it. If you choose the wrong definition
10 way at a different speed with players that 10 and you say there's no touching of the head no
11 were smaller. It was a different time. It 11 matter what, then, in fact, you could
12 wasn't currently needed for sure. 12 conceivably reduce the 50- or 60,000 to
13 Q. And during your tenure as 13 nothing.
14 Commissioner, players got progressively 14 And so it was how do you come up
15 bigger, faster and stronger, didn't they? 15 with a precise rule to take out, for lack of a
16 A. They got bigger and stronger. I 16 better word, the hits that weren't needed, but
17 don't know if it happened during or prior to, 17 still preserved the essential physicality of
18 but over time. And I'm not exactly sure what 18 the game. And that's the process we went
19 the time frame is but over time they've gotten 19 through first with the blind-side hit and then
20 bigger and stronger. 20 the two further iterations of Rule 48.
21 Q. And your testimony is, so I'm 21 And what we've managed to do is
22 clear, that that kind of a hit that was 22 reduce head hits and maintain the physicality
23 outlawed now with Rule 48 never was necessary 23 of the game.
24 in the game just to preserve the game's 24 It wasn't something that you could
25 physicality. 25 throw a dart or make up as you went along. It

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1 evolved as we understood it better. 1 A. What do mean is that inclusive?
2 Q. In its most recent incarnation, 2 Q. Is that hard to figure out? A
3 Rule 48 -- strike that. I'll come to it later 3 repeat offender is somebody who does it more
4 and we'll do it in sequence. 4 than once.
5 A. Okay. 5 A. Well, except --
6 Q. Just hold that aside for now. 6 Q. Let's take Matt Cooke, for
7 A. By the way, just in terms of what 7 example.
8 you were asking me, if you go to the end and 8 A. -- the collective bargaining
9 you look at questions in need of answers, I 9 agreement has a definition of what a repeat
10 think it's the last three or four pages, it 10 offender is and how you supplementally
11 talks about, you know, what risks do we take 11 discipline. We have parameters within which
12 in changing the fabric of the game. If we 12 we have to supplementally discipline and the
13 make changes to the existing rules on what 13 Players' Association has a rule, both in the
14 constitutes a legal shoulder check, how do we 14 crafting of the parameters, the procedure that
15 reduce the incident of legal hits to the head. 15 we use, and they represent the player, the
16 These are all the thoughtful things that go 16 perpetrator, in a hearing in terms of how much
17 into changing rules. You can't -- you just 17 discipline he's supposed to get.
18 don't -- it's not as simple as saying I don't 18 Q. You spoke with Mr. Campbell from
19 like this, change the rule. You've really got 19 time to time about supplemental discipline
20 to analyze it very carefully. And from the 20 issues, right?
21 players' standpoint, very important because 21 A. Yes.
22 for them their livelihood depends on it. 22 Q. And he told you that one of the
23 Q. Actually, now that we're on that 23 factors he considered was whether someone was
24 subject, questions in need of answers -- 24 a repeat offender, correct?
25 A. What page are you on? 25 A. Yeah. But, actually, that's
Page 319 Page 321

1 Q. I'm on page 58, Commissioner. 1 defined in the collective bargaining agreement
2 A. Sure. 2 as being suspended I think within 18 months.
3 Q. Did you ask yourself looking at 3 It's changed over time. It's a -- by the way,
4 those first three questions, to yourself, 4 the factors that he considered and that
5 Really? Does anybody have any doubt about the 5 Brendan Shanahan considered and Stephan
6 answers to these questions? 6 Kantell considers are enumerated in the
7 A. You're missing the point, with all 7 collective bargaining agreement. They're the
8 due respect. You're going to change something 8 subject of collective bargaining.
9 that's been a certain way and that people have 9 Q. And that's why my question was
10 conducted themselves in and made lots and lots 10 what it is. Why is there a question about it
11 of money playing the game a certain way. 11 if it's a defined term?
12 If you're going to make a change, 12 A. Because you want to make sure that
13 you've got to do it right. And you've got to 13 what you do is consistent with what's in
14 get it right. But you have to answer these 14 place. And maybe at some point in collective
15 fundamental questions in order to craft the 15 bargaining or otherwise you put that on the
16 right approach and the right rule. And to get 16 list of things to change or maybe you even say
17 the buy-in, most importantly, from the 17 to the union maybe we need to look at this
18 players. 18 again.
19 Q. For example, the question, What is 19 Q. Well, that was why I was asking
20 the definition -- this is on page 58. 20 the question because I am familiar with the
21 A. Right. 21 collective bargaining agreement.
22 Q. It says: "What is the definition 22 A. Oh.
23 of a repeat offender?" 23 Q. And I thought, well, I thought it
24 And my question, Commissioner, is 24 was defined.
25 is that elusive? 25 A. It is defined.

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1 Q. Where it says on the next page 1 them in camp and do that.
2 "What is the blind-side hit" -- 2 Secondly, we were looking for
3 A. You still on that? I'm sorry. 3 consistency.
4 What page are you on? 4
5 Q. Page 59. 5
6 A. Blind-side hit -- 6
7 Is that really mysterious? 7
8 A. Yeah. What is a blind-side hit? 8
9 Q. A blind-side hit is when you hit a 9
10 player from an angle where he can't see you 10 It isn't as easy as just saying do
11 coming. 11 it. Okay? Which is why these things take
12 A. And what if his head's turned in 12 time and they evolve. It's the same reason
13 the opposite direction? 13 that Rule 48 has gone through three
14 Q. If he can't see you coming, it's a 14 incarnations because with the implementation
15 blind-side hit? 15 we learned more.
16 A. So what if he turns his head at 16 Twenty-six.
17 the last second and he should have seen you 17 Q. Yeah, thank you.
18 coming? 18 (Discussion held off the record.)
19 Q. That's not a blind-side hit. He 19 (Bettman Exhibit 26, e-mail dated
20 say you coming. 20 9/26/2013 bearing production numbers
21 A. What if, in fact, he turned his 21 NHL2339143 through NHL2339227, marked
22 head -- 22 for identification as of this date.)
23 Q. If he turned his head at the last 23 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
24 second, Commissioner, and he didn't see you 24 Q. Showing you a Board of Governors
25 coming, it's not blind-sided. 25 presentation draft, Commissioner, and you are
Page 323 Page 325

1 A. Not so easy to define is the point 1 not shown as a recipient of it. Easy question
2 of this discussion. Okay? And what if he 2 first while I pass these around.
3 should have seen you coming? What if he was 3 You attend virtually all the Board
4 blinking? What if his eyes were closed? What 4 of Governors meetings, don't you?
5 if he put his head down? Okay? What if he 5 A. I would differ with the word
6 did it at the last second and didn't see you 6 "virtually."
7 coming or you don't know whether he saw you 7 Q. All of them.
8 coming? That's the point. This isn't so easy 8 A. That would be better.
9 to do. It requires a level of discussion and 9 Q. The date of this document is --
10 precision that gets everybody, including and 10 MR. GOLDFEIN: Wait, wait, wait,
11 especially the players, comfortable that they 11 wait, wait.
12 know how it's going to be called. 12 Okay. I'm going to object to your
13 Q. And that takes time, doesn't it? 13 use of this document. I produced to Mr.
14 A. Yes. 14 Cashman at Brendan Shanahan's deposition
15 Q. And that takes education. 15 the final version of this document that
16 A. Yes. 16 was actually used at the board.
17 Q. And that takes the referees buying 17 MR. GRYGIEL: And I think I know
18 in. 18 where one of the operative differences
19 A. Yes. Well, not just buying in. 19 is. I was going to ask about it. I
20 Being able to do what we're asking them to do. 20 simply -- I know you did.
21 So, for example, in the first 21 MR. GOLDFEIN: Well, I have the
22 incarnation of the blind-side hit, we decided 22 document here.
23 to do it with supplemental discipline. Couple 23 MR. GRYGIEL: If you have it, I'd
24 of reasons. One we were doing it during the 24 be happy to use it. Thank you.
25 season and we didn't have enough time to have 25 MR. GOLDFEIN: Can we just use

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1 the -- with the cover e-mail and the 1 Q. You don't have any reason to doubt
2 portion of the document related to the 2 that it's what it purports to be, do you?
3 board presentation? Otherwise, we have 3 A. No. But I'm not copied on the
4 to -- I have the entire document here. 4 e-mail. And I'm assuming, which these guys
5 MR. GRYGIEL: Yeah. 5 told me never to do, that Bill sent to Lou
6 MR. GOLDFEIN: The entirety of the 6 Lamoriello, the presentations that were made
7 document includes the State of the 7 at the board meeting on September 23rd, three
8 League presentation. This was one of 8 days earlier. And I'm assuming this is the
9 the attachments to the board 9 Player Safety presentation that was made
10 presentation. 10 because, as we know, there was some drafts
11 MR. GRYGIEL: Right. I'm happy 11 floating around but I'll assume for purposes
12 simply to deal with the evolution of 12 of your questioning that this was the final
13 Rule 48 in this case. Fascinated as I 13 version that was actually presented and if it
14 am with the League's business as I am. 14 turns out that it's not, you can strike all my
15 THE WITNESS: Please. You have 15 answers.
16 the exhibits so in your spare time you 16 Q. Fair enough.
17 can go through them. 17 MR. GOLDFEIN: And just for the
18 (Discussion held off the record.) 18 record, I don't know if this is helpful
19 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 19 or not, but it's a Powerpoint. And
20 Q. I'm showing you, Commissioner 20 it -- all of these that you've been
21 Bettman, what we have now marked as Exhibit 26 21 showing are generally Powerpoints.
22 to your deposition. It is a document 22 They're not distributed to people in
23 comprised of two individual components, the 23 hard copy normally.
24 first of which is a September 26, 2013 e-mail. 24 MR. GRYGIEL: Right.
25 And you will see it's from Bill Daly to Lou 25 MR. GOLDFEIN: They're just --
Page 327 Page 329

1 Lamoriello and two other people, I gather, M. 1 just sort of the Powerpoints that go
2 Carnevale and C. Garcia. 2 out.
3 You'll see at the bottom of the 3 MR. GRYGIEL: What I'm getting now
4 first page of this first e-mail it lists the 4 are screen shots of those Powerpoints I
5 attachments. And one of the attachments 5 gather?
6 listed is the Department of Player Safety, 6 MR. GOLDFEIN: Yes. So the
7 September 2013 Board of Governors meeting, 7 commentary --
8 correct? 8 A. Yes. And the commentary on the
9 A. You're talking about the bottom 9 bottom is really for the presenter. I don't
10 left that says BOG Meeting Player Safety - 10 know that the presenter actually said that,
11 September 31, 2013, pptx. 11 but it may have just been cues as to what they
12 Q. Exactly. 12 were thinking about saying. Okay?
13 A. Okay. I got that. 13 Q. Thank you.
14 Q. And if we turn to the second 14 With that, if we could can turn to
15 document here, you will see this bears the NHL 15 the page that has the number 4 on it, and that
16 shield, Department of Player Safety, and it 16 is under the heading Select Highlights --
17 says September 2013 Board of Governors 17 A. Yes.
18 Meeting. Bates numbers NHL2339207 and it goes 18 Q. -- and you will see it says under
19 through -9227, correct? 19 that box on this page here, the second page --
20 A. Okay. -9227. Yes. 20 A. How is that different than what's
21 Q. You've seen this document before, 21 on page 4 before that, which is bigger and
22 haven't you? 22 easier to read?
23 A. Not necessarily in this form but, 23 Q. I know. But the commentary I'm
24 yes, I've seen the presentation. Assuming 24 interested in is on page 4 here. And it says:
25 that this is what it purports to be. 25 "Should we call it modern? Not much done in

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1 the '70s and '80s." 1 system?
2 Do you know who wrote that? 2 A. We would know that from watching
3 A. No. 3 the games, from having people in attendance,
4 Q. Now, that refers to what was done 4 and from talking to the players. If a
5 in terms of head -- protecting heads from 5 building didn't have the Check Flex system we
6 concussions, correct? 6 would have known.
7 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 7 Q. I take it there was no formal
8 of the question. 8 scheme by which the NHL ensured that every
9 A. Well, it may -- I don't know what 9 rink that needed to be retrofitted was.
10 it had to do with. It could have been not 10 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
11 much done in terms of medical science. Not 11 of the question.
12 much done in terms of supplemental discipline. 12 A. We play in 30 rinks. We play
13 I don't know. Anything I would tell you would 13 1,230 regular season games and somewhere
14 be a guess. 14 around 90 playoff games. We know what goes on
15 Q. Do you remember any discussions at 15 in the buildings.
16 this meeting where people talked about the 16 Q. Just keep that document, if you
17 fact not much was done in the '70s and '80s? 17 would, in front of you.
18 A. No. This was -- typically when a 18 A. Okay.
19 presentation like this is made, you go through 19 Q. Let me show you what I'm going to
20 the whole presentation before you take any 20 mark as Exhibit Number 27.
21 questions or comments. Somebody may have an 21 A. Okay.
22 occasional question in the middle of the 22 (Bettman Exhibit 27, e-mail dated
23 presentation, but I don't think you'd have a 23 12/2/2011 bearing production numbers
24 discussion in the middle of the presentation. 24 NHL0115693 through NHL0115720, marked
25 Q. If you would look, Commissioner, 25 for identification as of this date.)
Page 331 Page 333

1 at the 1990s heading, under 1996 you will see 1 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
2 the second entry there is Seamless glass 2 Q. Draft Concussion Presentation.
3 introduced, correct? 3 You're shown as a recipient. Date is
4 A. Where are you looking? 4 12/2/2011. Have you seen this document
5 Q. Take it back. I'm looking at the 5 before?
6 wrong one. 6 A. I don't recall. I'm sure I did.
7 A. Thank you. You had me very 7 At least in its presentation form.
8 confused. 8 Q. What I'd like you to do,
9 Q. Under 1995 it says, New shielding 9 Commissioner, is look at this document -- let
10 introduced, correct? 10 me identify it more accurately. It's dated on
11 A. Yes. 11 the cover page December 2, 2011. The Bates
12 Q. And then in 2001 it says under the 12 number are NHL0115693 and they go through
13 first bullet Mandatory flexible shield. 13 -720.
14 A. Yes. That's what we discussed, 14 A. Okay.
15 that the seamless -- we then required, as I 15 Q. If you turn to the second -- first
16 assume -- as I thought I recalled we did and 16 page in, it says Concussions in the National
17 that we went to Check Flex. 17 Hockey League, NHL Board of Governors' Meeting
18 Q. Do you know that all of the rinks 18 December 2011.
19 that had seamless glass went to Check Flex? 19 A. Okay.
20 A. Once it became mandatory, yeah. 20 Q. You would have attended such a
21 On the ends. I don't think on the sides. I 21 meeting, of course.
22 think on the ends. 22 A. Of course.
23 Q. Was there something done to make 23 Q. Turning to the page that has the
24 sure that every club that had seamless glass 24 number 3 in the box at the lower right-hand
25 on the ends actually did go to the Check Flex 25 side --

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1 A. Um-hum. 1 MR. GOLDFEIN: Twenty-seven.
2 Q. -- you'll see it says NHL: June 2 A. What page would you like me to go
3 2011 - December 2011. Replacement of seamless 3 to?
4 glass with acrylic. 4 Q. Please go to page 12 under
5 A. Um-hum. 5 Environment.
6 Q. Now, that suggests to me that the 6 A. Okay.
7 rinks that had seamless glass before had not 7 Q. And you will see that there are
8 actually taken it out. 8 statistics that deal with the concussions and
9 A. No, seamless had the Check Flex. 9 man games loss comparing acrylic to seamless
10 Seamless was still the Check Flex. Do you 10 glass, correct?
11 understand? 11 A. Um-hum.
12 Q. Why don't you explain that a 12 Q. For how long had the NHL tracked
13 little to me. 13 that data?
14 A. The seamless system, with its 14 A. I think you showed me a document
15 boards, stayed in place. What we made 15 earlier. It had been for four or five years.
16 mandatory earlier on was the Check Flex 16 In that vicinity. I may be off a little bit.
17 system, which caused the whole seamless system 17 Q. And had not it always been the
18 to flex, okay? So you still had seamless 18 case that the seamless glass was
19 glass. Okay? We then said we're going to 19 disproportionately more productive of
20 acrylic because we decided even that was too 20 concussions than acrylic glass?
21 hard, we wanted to soften the environment 21 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the
22 more. 22 form of the question.
23 Q. And that came after it was 23 A. But then we went to Check Flex to
24 determined that the Check Flex system wasn't 24 see if that made a difference. So it took
25 reducing the impact enough. 25 some time to get back to acrylic because we
Page 335 Page 337

1 A. Enough. We made that judgment 1 were doing it in phases. We thought, we
2 based on continuing to analyze the data. 2 hoped, we expected, that Check Flex would have
3 Q. And do you remember that the 3 dealt with it. And when it didn't, we
4 data -- one of the criterion was that you 4 responded by saying not good enough,
5 wanted the Check Flex system to be as 5 everybody's going back to acrylic.
6 flexible -- to be within 10 percent of the 6
7 flexibility of the acrylic systems. 7
8 A. Whatever the number was. We 8
9 wanted it to be more flexible than being 9
10 stationary. And, you know, it was interesting 10
11 because fans had gotten used to the seamless 11
12 system because there are no stanchions. 12
13 Q. No stanchions? 13
14 A. Exactly. 14
15 But we made a decision then that 15
16 we were going to acrylic and soften it up 16
17 completely. 17
18 Q. If you would turn to the page 18
19 that -- 19
20 A. Which document are we talking 20
21 about now? 21 Q. Did you, Commissioner, have a
22 Q. The same one. I'm sorry. The 22 particular threshold in mind for what would be
23 same one that I've put in front of you. The 23 required to require the clubs to change from
24 second one there. 24 the seamless glass system to the acrylic
25 A. Got it. Okay. 25 system?

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1 A. No. It was really -- as I said to 1 they did what was the right thing for player
2 you in response to a question five hours ago, 2 safety. Not all that different, you know,
3 it's one of those things you know it when you 3 when I ordered nets to be put up at the -- in
4 see it. 4 the end zones behind the nets, right?
5 Q. Did you speak with any players 5 Q. The response to the incident in
6 about their experiences with the seamless 6 Columbus where Britney Cecil was hit with a
7 glass versus the acrylic glass? 7 puck that came out of the ice.
8 A. I'm sure on a casual basis I may 8 A. Right. On the deflection.
9 have. I don't remember a specific player. 9 Q. Right.
10 But, you know, when players come to New York 10
11 they sometimes stop in and visit. And I like 11
12 them to tell me what's going on from their 12
13 standpoint, what they're happy about, what 13
14 they're not happy about, how they're viewing 14
15 the officiating. You know, things like that. 15
16 And I'm sure in some of those conversations it 16 Q. Staying with this Exhibit Number
17 came up. 17 27, since we are there --
18 Q. Did any player tell you prior to 18 A. Okay. And we'll get rid of the
19 2010 that the glass in Montreal was so rigid 19 other one?
20 they felt like they were hitting a brick wall? 20 Q. Yeah. We can put that aside for
21 A. If they did I don't remember that 21 the moment.
22 specifically. 22 A. Thank you.
23 Q. Do you remember any player 23 MR. GOLDFEIN: Let's just put a
24 specifically telling you that Vancouver 24 clip on it, Commissioner.
25 suffered from the same deficiency? 25 THE WITNESS: Oh. I have it.
Page 339 Page 341

1 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 1 Better to put it on this because I've
2 of the question. What time was this as 2 been doing it on my finger, which
3 to both questions? 3 ultimately was going to hurt.
4 Q. Well, let's say before 2010. 4 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
5 A. It doesn't matter. I don't have a 5 Q. Looking at page --
6 specific recollection of that anyway. 6 A. I'm listening. Go ahead.
7 But it became clear to me that we 7 Q. Looking at page 8, under Fighting.
8 had enough in front of us that nobody was 8 A. Okay.
9 going to object to doing it, even though it 9 Q. You'll see the two bullet points
10 was considerable expense to the clubs, 10 there, correct?
11 particularly those that had left acrylic 11 A. Yeah. Those -- yes.
12 originally, put in the seamless system, put in 12
13 the Check Flex system, and said, no, we're 13
14 going back. And there was no resistance 14
15 because we were able to make the case. 15
16 Q. You mentioned that fans liked the 16
17 seamless system, right? 17
18 A. Yes. 18
19 Q. And the reason they liked it was 19
20 because the visibility onto the ice is much 20
21 better, correct? 21
22 A. Exactly. 22
23 Q. And the clubs liked that because, 23
24 of course, it made their fans happier. 24
25 A. Yeah. But at the end of the day 25

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Page 346 Page 348

1 1 whether Gretzky was a great player and
2 2 whether you respected him. And then he
3 3 asked you medical questions about Mr.
4 4 Gretzky's opinions on medicine.
5 5 THE WITNESS: Well, he's not a
6 6 doctor. We know that. Nobody's going
7 7 to try to infer to the contrary that he
8 8 has medical expertise.
9 9 MR. GOLDFEIN: Right.
10 Q. Since you brought up Wayne 10 (Bettman Exhibit 28, fax dated
11 Gretzky, he's a thoughtful fellow about the 11 August 22, 2003 bearing production
12 game of hockey, isn't he? 12 numbers NHL1353432 through NHL1353444,
13 A. Yes, he is. 13 marked for identification as of this
14 Q. And he's someone whose judgment 14 date.)
15 you trust about how the game is played on the 15 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
16 ice. 16 Q. I'm showing you what we've marked
17 A. I trust lots of people's judgment. 17 as Exhibit Number 28.
18 But lots of people have lots of different 18 A. We're going back eight years now.
19 opinions. 19 Q. Yeah.
20 Q. Have you ever spoken with Wayne 20 A. Okay.
21 Gretzky about what his view is of the 21 MR. GOLDFEIN: Oh, okay. So on
22 long-term impact of concussions on players? 22 this document I will say that I am going
23 A. I don't believe so. 23 to object to the use of this document
24 Q. Have you ever seen anything he 24 when we've produced the actual signed
25 said about it? 25 version of the letter that was sent by
Page 347 Page 349

1 A. Not that I recall. 1 the Commissioner to Mr. Anschutz.
2 Q. Have you ever seen any commentary 2 MR. GRYGIEL: Fair enough. I
3 he's given about this possibility of long-term 3 realized when I saw this go out that I
4 neurodegenerative problems? 4 did have somewhere the final copy, but I
5 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 5 don't think it's going to make a
6 of the question. 6 difference with the questions that I ask
7 A. I don't have a specific 7 because they're process questions.
8 recollection. 8 MR. GOLDFEIN: Okay. Do you
9 We done with this? 9 want -- I mean, I brought enough with us
10 Q. I believe we are for the moment. 10 if you want to mark the --
11 MR. GOLDFEIN: Were you referring 11 MR. GRYGIEL: If you have -- I
12 to Dr. Gretzky at that point? 12 will take a look at it. I'd like to
13 MR. GRYGIEL: Yes. Exactly. 13 actually compare the two. That'll make
14 MR. GOLDFEIN: As opposed to -- 14 my life easier.
15 MR. GRYGIEL: He was a magician. 15 THE WITNESS: Go ahead.
16 MR. GOLDFEIN: -- the great 16 MR. GRYGIEL: Thank you.
17 player? 17 THE WITNESS: That one looks like
18 MR. GRYGIEL: The Great One, 18 I signed it.
19 right. 19 MR. GOLDFEIN: It doesn't have the
20 THE WITNESS: Huh? 20 letterhead from Anschutz.
21 MR. GOLDFEIN: He knows what I'm 21 MR. GRYGIEL: Right. If I could
22 asking. 22 have another sticker, please. I'm just
23 MR. GRYGIEL: I do. 23 going to mark this as 29.
24 THE WITNESS: I don't. 24 (Bettman Exhibit 29, letter dated
25 MR. GOLDFEIN: He asked you 25 August 27, 2003 bearing production

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1 numbers NHL0119821 through NHL0119827, 1
2 marked for identification as of this 2
3 date.) 3
4 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 4
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11 11 Q. Yes, I do.
12 12 A. Okay. Good.
13 13 Q. I have read it.
14 14 A. Good. Okay.
15 15 Q. If you would turn, Commissioner,
16 16 to the page that ends in the Bates numbers
17 17 442.
18 18 A. You're talking about the draft
19 19 response as opposed to the --
20 20 Q. Yes.
21 21 A. But don't you have the final
22 22 response?
23 23 Q. I do. And we're going to get to
24 24 that in just a second.
25 25 A. Okay. So I'm on 442.
Page 355 Page 357

1 1 Q. Do you see in the second paragraph
2 2 there, full paragraph, begins "Dr. Hanson
3 3 suggested a videotape..."
4 4 A. Um-hum.
5 5 Q. You're aware, of course, as you
6 6 mentioned earlier, the League actually had
7 7 produced a videotape, correct?
8 8 A. Yes.
9 9 Q. Have you reviewed that for
10 10 purposes of your deposition today?
11 11 A. I don't think so. I don't believe
12 12 so.
13 13 Q. Have you seen a script of what
14 14 that videotape contains?
15 15 A. No.
16 16 Q. Are you aware of any mention that
17 17 that videotape contains of long-term
18 18 neurodegenerative disease?
19 19 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection.
20 20 A. I think there's probably -- I'm
21 21 pretty certain there's a warning as there has
22 22 been in the three videotapes on the subject
23 23 that talks about a risk of long-term
24 24 consequences without being more specific
25 25 because nobody knew to be more specific from a

612.338.3376
Page 358 Page 360

1 medical and scientific standpoint. 1 MR. GRYGIEL: Well, the
2 Q. At the time that videotape was 2 Commissioner said some of them would
3 produced -- 3 take some time to look at.
4 A. Which one are we talking about? 4 A. You know what? I'm not sure which
5 Because there are three. There's the Think 5 one -- I saw a couple. I didn't watch any of
6 First. And then there was the first one we 6 them in their entirety. I think I just
7 did with the Players' Association and then the 7 watched the beginning of one. But I didn't
8 second one. 8 bother watching it.
9 So the first one was hosted by 9 Q. I'm showing you, here,
10 Brett Lindros, and the second one was -- and a 10 Commissioner, what we have marked as Exhibit
11 bunch of players. And the second one was 11 Number 29. This is a final copy of the
12 hosted by his brother, I think, Eric. 12 letter, correct?
13 Q. And then there's one with Dr. 13 A. It looks that way. I have no
14 Burke as one of the speakers. 14 reason to believe that it's not.
15 A. Okay. 15 Q. Did you make any, that you recall,
16 Q. Did you review the scripts for all 16 editorial changes, substantive changes, or
17 those before they were final? 17 other revisions of the draft Ms. Grand had put
18 A. I don't have a recollection of 18 out?
19 having done that. 19 A. You're asking me if I edited a
20 Q. Okay. 20 letter I sent twelve years ago?
21 A. I would rely principally on our 21 Q. Yep.
22 experts. And obviously the Players' 22 A. I have no recollection.
23 Association was involved in approving that as 23 Q. That is your signature on the last
24 they are with all the communications on the 24 page, isn't it?
25 subject. 25 A. Yes.
Page 359 Page 361

1 Q. Recognizing those are three actual 1 Q. You know who Tom Golisano is,
2 videotapes, have you reviewed any of them for 2 don't you?
3 purposes of testifying here today? 3 A. Yes.
4 A. I think I saw a clip of one of 4 Q. And why don't you identify who Tom
5 them. And I don't remember which one. I 5 Golisano is.
6 think it was Think First. Because it was the 6 A. He was, for a couple of years, the
7 oldest. But it is an hour program and I 7 owner of the Buffalo Sabres. He bought the
8 didn't watch it all. 8 club after the League took it over from John
9 Q. Let's turn to the number 29, which 9 Regus. And he then sold the club I guess
10 is the signed copy here. 10 about four years ago to --
11 MR. GOLDFEIN: Just for the 11 Q. Terry Pegula?
12 record, I believe you know that we've 12 A. Terry Pegula. And Kim Pegula.
13 produced those tapes. 13 Who's now the owner of the Buffalo Bills. And
14 MR. GRYGIEL: Now you have, yeah. 14 the Rochester Amerks.
15 They're recently produced though, unless 15 (Bettman Exhibit 30, e-mail dated
16 I'm not mistaken. 16 2/24/2007 bearing production numbers
17 MR. GOLDFEIN: Yeah. This week. 17 NHL0026767 through NHL0026771, marked
18 Earlier in the week. 18 for identification as of this date.)
19 MR. GRYGIEL: Right. They were 19 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
20 before -- they were actually after I 20 Q. Showing you what we are marking as
21 designated exhibits for this deposition. 21 Exhibit Number 30. You'll see there's a
22 MR. GOLDFEIN: Well, I think we 22 multi-page document that begins with the
23 might -- if you're suggesting you would 23 heading Urgent Advisory from Mike Gilbert, or
24 have designated them to show the 24 Gilbert, of the Buffalo Sabres.
25 Commissioner? 25 A. Gilbert.

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1 Q. Gilbert. 1
2 The Bates numbers are NHL0026767 2
3 through -771. 3
4 A. Yep. 4
5 Q. And if you'd turn to the third 5
6 page in you will see what we have is a letter 6
7 from B., as in boy, Thomas Golisano to you, 7
8 correct? 8
9 A. Yes. 9
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1 1 Q. Did you ever sit there and think I
2 2 wonder what my predecessors did about this
3 3 issue, about head hits and concussions?
4 4 A. No.
5 5 Q. Did you ever ask anybody who
6 6 preceded you in the League in any capacity
7 7 what did my predecessors do about this?
8 8 A. No.
9 9 Q. Did you ever ask anybody --
10 10 A. You asked me this stuff this
11 11 morning.
12 12 Q. Did you ever ask anybody what
13 13 might have been done back then that would have
14 14 saved a lot of this trouble today?
17 17 A. Based on what I knew and what we
18 18 were evolving, they didn't have the tools to
19 19 make the decisions we were making. They
20 20 didn't have the process in place that could
21 21 have done it.
22 22 I mean, it's -- everything that
23 23 we've done -- and you can go through the
24 24 minutes of all the various meetings and
25 25 education things and things we've sent out to
Page 411 Page 413

1 1 the League and to the players and all the
2 2 protocols and all the rule changes. This is
3 3 because we've been in an evolutionary process
4 4 consistently trying to do the right things
5 5 based on the best information we had available
6 6 to us.
7 7 (Bettman Exhibit 37, e-mail dated
8 8 3/17/2011 bearing production number
9 9 NHL0027620, marked for identification as
10 10 of this date.)
12 12
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18 Q. Having sat in the Commissioner's 18
19 chair now for quite a long time -- 19
20 A. You? Oh, me. 20
21 Q. You. 21
22 A. Okay, yes. 22
23 Q. I hadn't gotten to the pronoun 23
24 yet. 24
25 A. Oh, I'm sorry. 25

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612.338.3376
Page 430 Page 432

1 1 authenticate that he was a lion of the game.
2 2 I assume that's what people said about him.
3 3 Q. I'm going to show you what is
4 4 marked as Exhibit 41. It is a letter dated
5 5 August 29, 1974 from a Clarence Campbell to a
6 6 Mr. F. C. Bett. Re. Violence in Hockey.
8 8 before?
9 9 A. Not that I recall.
10 10 Q. Looking at the Bates numbers,
11 11 which are NHL0127373 through -374, showing
12 12 that this came from the National Hockey
13 Q. In fact, I've read that you've 13 League's files, is this the sort of document
14 said you sometimes take positions you don't 14 that you encountered when you took the job as
15 believe in order to test those with whom 15 Commissioner?
16 you're speaking. 16 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection. Asked
17 A. I don't believe you can run an 17 and answered. Object to the form of the
18 organization the way I do and get people who 18 question.
19 tell you yes all the time. And there's only 19 A. As I said, there was a dearth of
20 way to test that. 20 files. I don't recall ever seeing this or
21 MR. GOLDFEIN: Did we put that 21 anything like it when I came to the League in
22 twenty minutes in already because the 22 1993, 19 years later.
23 reporter is being very kind. 23 Q. You'll see in the second paragraph
24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Approximately, 24 Mr. Campbell speaks about playing it "rough
25 yeah. 25 and tough," or even "violently at times,"
Page 431 Page 433

1 (Discussion held off the record.) 1 right?
2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 2 A. Huh? Where are you?
3 5:52. We're going off the record. 3 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
4 (Recess taken.) 4 of the question.
5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 5 A. I do not believe --
6 6:07. We're back on the record. 6 MR. GOLDFEIN: Lacks foundation.
7 (Bettman Exhibit 41, letter dated 7 A. Oh, we played it rough -- I'm
8 August 29, 1974 bearing production 8 sorry. I'm just reading --
9 numbers NHL0127373 through NHL0127374, 9 MR. GOLDFEIN: Excuse me. Object
10 marked for identification as of this 10 to the form of the question. Please
11 date.) 11 don't read hearsay into the record.
12 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 12 A. I see that's what the words say
13 Q. You know who Clarence Campbell is, 13 that apparently Mr. Campbell used.
14 don't you? 14 Q. And in the fourth paragraph down
15 A. Who he was. 15 he refers to "our occasional excesses of
16 Q. Who he was, right. 16 violence," correct?
17 And he was at one time the 17 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
18 President of the National Hockey League. 18 of the question.
19 A. That's correct. 19 A. Where -- I don't see it.
20 Q. And he was generally regarded as 20 Q. That's in the fourth paragraph.
21 one of the, shall we say, oh, lions of the 21 A. One, two, three, four. In my
22 game. 22 opinion...
23 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 23 The words say what they say.
24 of the question. 24 Q. You don't have any reason to doubt
25 A. Okay. I mean, I'm not going to 25 that he's accurately characterizing the game

612.338.3376
Page 434 Page 436

1 that he supervised at that time. 1 no basis for agreeing, disagreeing, knowing
2 MR. GOLDFEIN: I object to the 2 what he was saying. It is what it is.
3 form of the question. It calls for 3 Q. Not for a particularly interesting
4 speculation about what was in Mr. 4 trip down memory lane, but here's another Mr.
5 Campbell's mind. 5 Campbell document. We're marking this as
6 A. While this was a long time ago, he 6 Exhibit Number 42. And you will see this is a
7 starts that paragraph by saying "In my 7 letter from Mr. Clarence Campbell to a Mr.
8 opinion." Probably in those days, not unlike 8 Jack Stafford dated March 20, 1975.
9 today, there are lots of opinions. 9 And you will see in the middle
10 Q. You would expect that if Mr. 10 paragraph --
11 Campbell was writing a letter about violence 11 A. Well, let me read the whole thing.
12 in hockey that he knew whereof he spoke, 12 It's not that long.
13 correct? 13 Q. Go ahead. It's not that long.
14 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 14 (Document review.)
15 of the question. That calls for 15
16 speculation. 16
17 A. I never met Mr. Campbell. I can't 17
18 comment on his opinions, his mental acuity, or 18
19 anything else about him. I only know what 19
20 I've read. 20
21 Q. Is he related to Colin Campbell? 21
22 A. No. 22 Q. He goes on -- he says here --
23 (Bettman Exhibit 42, letter dated 23 A. I've never seen this before.
24 March 20, 1975 bearing production 24 Q. You've never seen this before?
25 numbers NHL0127555 through NHL0127556, 25 A. No.
Page 435 Page 437

1 marked for identification as of this 1 Q. And you have no basis -- strike
2 date.) 2 that.
3 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 3 You have no basis to agree,
4 Q. I'm showing you now what we've 4 disagree, or say anything else about this
5 marked as Exhibit Number 42. 5 document.
6 A. Interesting in the letter, in the 6 A. I've never seen this before, other
7 middle of the paragraph on the next page, if 7 than he seemed a little unhappy because people
8 you're subscribing to his theories, "Fighting 8 were giving him a hard time.
9 is one of the least dangerous things that 9 Q. He doesn't want hockey to become a
10 players do to each other." 10 panty-waist sport he says.
11 Q. I'm glad you actually reminded me 11 A. Okay. That was his view in 1975.
12 about that. I had a note. 12 Then I was in my second semester of the first
13 A. Oh, good. Okay. 13 year of NYU Law. Not knowing that this is
14 Q. Are you aware of anything that 14 where we'd all be 40 years later.
15 suggests that as of the date of this letter, 15 Q. Well, you mentioned earlier the
16 August 29, 1974, that fighting was one of the 16 law of unintended consequences. See what
17 least dangerous things that happen in the 17 happened with your professional education.
18 National Hockey League? 18 A. You know? Who ever would have
19 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the 19 thought?
20 form of the question. 20 (Bettman Exhibit 43, memorandum
21 A. August 29th, 1974? I think I was 21 dated February 27, 1989 bearing
22 in orientation for law school at NYU. 22 production numbers NHL0015789 through
23 Q. Safe to say you don't know what 23 NHL0015791, marked for identification as
24 basis Mr. Campbell had for saying that. 24 of this date.)
25 A. His letter is his letter. I have 25

612.338.3376
Page 438 Page 440

1 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 1 ability to perfect the playing of hockey. I
2 Q. Showing you what we've marked as 2 mean, it's one of many concerns. But it's
3 Exhibit Number 43. You'll see it is a 3 not -- it is what it is. Not my words. And
4 couple-of-page document. It bears the date 4 I'm not sure that I would say it quite like
5 February 27, 1989. It's a memorandum from 5 that. But, in general concept, I'm not going
6 Bill Wilkerson to Gary Meagher. Who's Bill 6 to tell you that this is erroneous.
7 Wilkerson? 7 Q. With player safety a vital
8 A. I think he worked for the League 8 concern, you consider the League has an
9 one time. I don't know if he was in-house or 9 obligation to the players in that respect,
10 a consultant. And it would be a guess. I 10 don't you?
11 think he was in PR. But, again, I don't know 11 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
12 if he was in in-house and Meagher worked for 12 of the question.
13 him or he was an outside consultant. I think. 13 A. I'm not sure what you mean by
14 It predates me. And I don't believe he was on 14 "obligation." There are all kinds of
15 staff when I joined the League. 15 obligations.
16 Q. When you joined the League, sir, 16 Q. Let's say a duty to the players to
17 did you review any mission statements that had 17 make the game as safe as possible as far as
18 been proposed for the League? 18 the League can do so.
19 A. No. 19 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object.
20 Q. Was there a mission statement in 20 A. The duty we have in that regard is
21 effect when you joined the League? 21 to collectively bargain with the union over
22 A. Not that I'm aware of. 22 the terms and conditions of employment, which
23 Q. There is mission statement today, 23 include player safety.
24 is there not? 24 Q. And there have been steps the
25 A. Well, a mission statement. I 25 League has taken outside of the collective
Page 439 Page 441

1 mean, I've made annual State of the League 1 bargaining agreement to improve player safety,
2 presentations at board meetings where I guess 2 right?
3 I have something that's called a mission 3 A. Outside of the collective
4 statement. But it's not anything we publish. 4 bargaining agreement?
5 It's more for the owners to understand what 5 Q. Sure.
6 I'm focused on at 30,000 feet. 6 A. I'm not sure I understand what you
7 Q. If you would look at the second 7 mean.
8 page, at the bottom there is a bullet point: 8 Q. Take an example. Nothing in the
9 "The League's continuous concern has been -- 9 collective bargaining agreement specified that
10 the welfare and well-being of the player and 10 the League should sponsor a Concussion Study
11 his ability to perfect the playing of hockey." 11 Group beginning in 1997.
12 That's still the League's concern 12 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
13 today, isn't it? 13 of the question.
14 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 14 A. Actually, we did that in
15 of the question. Again, I don't think 15 conjunction with the players.
16 you established a foundation that the 16 Q. Right. But nothing in the
17 Commissioner ever saw this document. 17 collective bargaining agreement said you had
18 You're reading hearsay into the record. 18 to do it that way.
19 A. I wouldn't choose these words. If 19 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
20 you want me to subscribe to the statement in 20 of the question.
21 its current form, I've got to quibble with it. 21 A. Collective bargaining is a
22 Concern? Objective may be a 22 relationship. It happens to have an agreement
23 better word. Welfare and well-being of 23 in collective bargaining at some point, but if
24 players is obviously of vital importance. And 24 you're in a collective bargaining relationship
25 I would include in that player safety. His 25 it's not static.

612.338.3376
Page 442 Page 444

1 Q. Well, there's nothing in the 1
2 collective bargaining agreement in place at 2
3 that time mandated that led to the formation 3
4 of the Concussion -- 4
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 10
11 11
12 12 Forty-four.
13 13 (Bettman Exhibit 44, draft mission
14 14 statement dated March 9, 1989 bearing
15 15 production numbers NHL0015795 through
19 19 Q. Forty-four, Commissioner, you'll
20 20 see is entitled Draft Mission Statement For
21 21 Discussion, March 9, 1989.
23 23 before?
24 24 A. Not that I can recall.
25 25 Q. For the record, the Bates numbers
Page 443 Page 445

1 1 are NHL0015795 through -799.
2 2 A. I have that in front of me.
3 3 Oh, so Bill Wilkerson, we
4 4 discover, was an outside consultant.
5 5 Q. From the Fraser Kelly CorpWorld
6 6 Group.
7 7 Did anybody during your tenure as
8 8 Commissioner suggest that an outside
9 9 consultant be brought in to draft the mission
10 10 statement for the League?
11 11 A. No.
12 12 Q. Have you ever -- looking at this,
13 13 this document, does it refresh your memory
14 14 about any other files you've seen with draft
15 15 mission statements in them?
16 16 A. I haven't seen this before.
17 17 Q. I take it you've never spoken with
18 18 Gary Meagher about draft mission statements.
19 19 A. I may have discussed with him our
20 20 draft mission statement, which is about two
21 21 sentences long. It isn't this. I may have
22 22 asked him to look at what I was putting
23 23 together the first time I put together a State
24 24 of the League report.

612.338.3376
Page 446 Page 448

1 bearing production numbers NHL0020586 1
2 through NHL0020588, marked for 2
3 identification as of this date.) 3
4 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 4
5 Q. Showing you, Commissioner, what 5
6 we've marked as Exhibit Number 45. It says at 6
7 the topic Focus on the Proper Issues. This is 7
8 a couple-of-page document. The Bates numbers 8
9 are NHL0020586. They go through -588. 9
10 Easy question. 10
11 MR. GOLDFEIN: Is it undated? 11
12 Q. Yes. 12
13 A. It's undated. I've never seen 13
14 this before. 14
15 Q. I was going to say have you ever 15
16 seen it before? 16
17 A. No, I have not. 17
18 Q. Do you know anything about its 18
19 provenance? 19
20 A. Its what? 20
21 Q. Provenance. Where it came from. 21
22 Who wrote it. 22
23 MR. GOLDFEIN: Provenance. I've 23
24 never heard that before. 24
25 Q. P-R-O-V-E-N-A-N-C-E, yeah. 25
Page 447 Page 449

1 A. Okay. 1
2 Q. Well, I'm from Utica so I say 2
3 provenance. 3
4 MR. KEYTE: Provenánce. 4
5 Q. Provenánce. 5
6 A. Oh, provenánce. Why didn't you 6
7 say that? 7
8 Q. Why didn't you say so, right. 8
9 A. No, I haven't seen this. I have 9
10 no idea where this came from. I couldn't tell 10
11 you when it was done. Although I'm certain it 11
12 was done before. 12
13 Q. Before your time? 13
14 A. Yes. 14 (Bettman Exhibit 46, NHL Position
15 Q. You can tell basically from the 15 Paper bearing production numbers
16 typeface I think. 16 NHL0011370 through NHL0011379, marked
17 A. That's exactly what the guess was 17 for identification as of this date.)
18 based on. 18 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
19 19 Q. Showing you now, Commissioner,
20 20 what's entitled NHL Position Paper, and I've
21 21 numbered it Exhibit Number 46. You will see
22 22 this statement -- it reads at the top: "This
23 23 statement should be used to guide comments on
24 24 NHL rules and policy governing unacceptable
25 25 acts of aggression by NHL players against

612.338.3376
Page 450 Page 452

1 their fellow players." 1 Toronto?
2 Curiously, the Bates numbers are 2 Q. I'm not sure. That's the question
3 NHL0011370 sequentially through -371, but at 3 I'd be asking you.
4 the middle of the second page there's the 4 A. I don't know.
5 number 30. 5 Q. Yeah.
6 Do you have any understanding 6 MR. CASHMAN: KW.
7 of -- 7 MR. GRYGIEL: Pardon me?
8 MR. GOLDFEIN: This is undated, 8 MR. CASHMAN: KW.
9 this document, right? 9 MR. GRYGIEL: KW? I can't tell.
10 MR. GRYGIEL: Yes, exactly. 10 A. Is this "KW" or "new"? Do you
11 Q. Do you have any understanding of 11 think that says "new"?
12 where this came from? 12 Q. I thought it said "new."
13 A. I may be completely wrong on what 13 A. I have no idea what it says. I
14 I'm about to say, but I think people who used 14 don't know whose handwriting it is.
15 to work for newspapers would make -- put the 15 MR. CASHMAN: It is KW.
16 number 30 like that to indicate to their 16 THE WITNESS: KW? You're going to
17 editors that was the end of the article. I 17 stick to that, huh?
18 don't know where I'm getting that from, and it 18 Q. I think it's safe to say nothing
19 may be one of these things that either I've 19 we do today will turn on that distinction. Or
20 accumulated or is a complete fabrication, but 20 tomorrow.
21 somebody should check that. 21 A. That's a relief.
22 Q. I will. Simply because now I'm 22 (Bettman Exhibit 47, letter dated
23 curious. And I believe the document actually 23 September 24, 1998 bearing production
24 is 1989. And I parsed that out of other 24 numbers NHL0217972 through NHL0217973,
25 things I've read. 25 marked for identification as of this
Page 451 Page 453

1 Does this refresh your memory of 1 date.)
2 reviewing this when you came to the League? 2 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
3 A. I never saw this. Not that I 3 Q. Showing you, Commissioner, what
4 recall at least. You said 1989. 4 we've marked as Exhibit Number 47 for
5 Q. I believe that's when it was. 5 identification. This has the heading NHLPA
6 A. This document predates me by four 6 with its logo at the time on the top. It is
7 years. And, as I said to you, we had a dearth 7 dated September 24, 1998. It is a letter to
8 of files. 8 William Daly from Ian Pulver.
9 Although, apparently, we had this 9 Have you ever seen this document
10 in our file somewhere. 10 before?
11 Q. In the upper right-hand corner 11 A. I don't specifically recall seeing
12 there's some handwriting. 12 it.
13 A. It says something position paper. 13 Q. Can you take a moment -- why don't
14 Q. NHL position paper. 14 you take a moment and read it.
15 A. Oh, is that what it says? 15 A. Okay. I can do that.
16 Q. Yes. I believe that's what it 16 (Document review.)
17 says. 17 A. Okay.
18 Do you recognize the handwriting? 18 Q. Have you had a moment to read it?
19 A. Oh, yeah. I didn't -- no, I don't 19 A. Yes, I did.
20 recognize the handwriting. I thought -- what 20
21 does this say here (indicating)? 21
22 Q. It seems to say "new." 22
23 A. Oh, okay. 23
24 Q. "New (NHL Position Paper)." 24
25 A. Did this come out of the files in 25

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15 15
16 16
17 17 Q. Showing you, Commissioner, what
18 18 we're going to mark as --
19 19 A. Forty-eight.
20 20 Q. -- Exhibit 48, and you will see
21 21 this is an e-mail chain between you and Colin
22 22 Campbell copying Bill Daly and Frank Brown.
24 24 3/24/2007 bearing production numbers

612.338.3376
Page 462 Page 464

1 for identification as of this date.) 1 But, again, this is 2007 and one
2 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 2 article. I don't have any recollection beyond
3 Q. It's a couple of pages. 3 what's here.
4 MR. GOLDFEIN: This is number? 4 Q. When you say "too many injuries,"
5 MR. GRYGIEL: Forty-eight. 5 Commissioner, was there some threshold level
6 MR. GOLDFEIN: Forty-eight. 6 that you had in mind that would be an
7 Q. The Bates numbers are NHL0025431 7 acceptable number of injuries from fighting?
8 through -432. 8 A. As we've repeatedly discussed, you
9 You will see the bottom of the 9 get a sense. You know it when you see it.
10 first page and continuing onto the second is 10 We're watching games every night. We're
11 an article about Todd Fedoruk. Let Fighters 11 looking for trends. It's more visceral.
12 Wear Gloves. The date is March 23, 2007. 12 Q. Earlier we looked at a document
13 Above that there's an e-mail from 13 that showed for 2010 through 2011 the
14 Colin Campbell to Frank Brown, to you, and to 14 concussions were I believe 10 percent.
15 Bill Daly, and above that an e-mail from you 15 Eight percent or 10 percent. And then there
16 to Campbell. 16 was the comment that they were underreported.
17 You didn't have any reason to 17 Do you know what they have been in
18 doubt that this was a series of e-mails sent 18 the last couple years?
19 and received in the ordinary course of your 19 A. I think it's down to 2 percent
20 business? 20 this year.
21 A. I have no reason -- 21 Q. Do you know how many, in terms of
22 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the 22 actual numbers, there have been?
23 form of the question. 23 A. No. But we have the numbers.
24 A. I have no reason. 24 Q. In terms of the reduction to
25 Q. Summarizing, you will see that 25 2 percent, do you know what accounts for that?
Page 463 Page 465

1 Todd Fedoruk is talking about taking a page 1 Is it Rule 48?
2 from the UFC and having fighters in the 2 A. It could be Rule 48. It could be
3 National Hockey League wear four-ounce gloves. 3 visors.
4 A. Yeah. I see that. 4 Q. Has anybody ever made any sort of
5 5 an analysis of that to present to the Board of
6 6 Governors?
7 7 A. Not yet. But I'm sure we will.
8 8 But we do know that visors, for example,
9 Coming up on top of that you say, 9 reduced head injuries I think in the AHL by
10 "I saw that. I actually used it to make the 10 40 percent.
11 point that the debate isn't fighting, good or 11 But intuitively for the 15 years I
12 bad, but rather are we seeing too many 12 tried to get the rule changed, you knew it had
13 injuries." 13 to be better to wear a visor in terms of
14 And then you go on to discuss an 14 facial protection and eye protection than not.
15 aberration or a rash of injuries, correct? 15 And, again, many of those injuries
16 A. Um-hum. 16 are caused by things like pucks, colliding
17 Q. To whom did you make the point 17 with your own teammate, falling and banging
18 using this article? 18 your head on something.
19 A. I don't know. I don't recall. 19 Forty-nine.
20 Q. Does this refresh your memory at 20 (Bettman Exhibit 49, e-mail dated
21 all about any further discussions you had 21 6/28/2007 bearing production numbers
22 concerning Mr. Fedoruk's proposal? 22 NHL0128996 through NHL0128998, marked
23 A. Obviously, if you have protection 23 for identification as of this date.)
24 on your hands you can punch harder. So I 24 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
25 don't think that's the way to go. 25 Q. Showing you, Commissioner, what

612.338.3376
Page 466 Page 468

1 we're marking as Exhibit Number 49, you will 1 Q. I used the word "disbanded"
2 see it as a couple of pages. It is an e-mail 2 because Ms. Grand used it. My question
3 chain at the top beginning with Re. NHLTPS. 3 though, sir, was a little bit different.
4 It is an e-mail at the top from you to Julie 4 A. Okay.
5 Grand dated June 28, 2007. The Bates numbers 5 Q. Was this date, June 25, 2007, the
6 are NHL0128996 through -98. 6 first time you had heard that the Concussion
7 You don't have any reason to doubt 7 Study Group had not been making the progress
8 that this an e-mail chain sent and received in 8 one would have wished?
9 the ordinary course of your business? 9 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
10 A. No reason to doubt. 10 of the question.
11 Q. Does this refresh your memory 11 A. I don't recall.
12 about a discussion you had with Julie Grand 12 Q. Did you receive regular reports
13 about the concussion study "dragging a bit for 13 about the progress of the Concussion Working
14 years"? 14 Group up through the date of June 25, 2007?
15 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the 15 A. Periodically people would tell
16 form of the question. 16 me -- Julie would tell me what was going on.
17 A. Where does it say that? 17 Q. Did you ever ask anybody the
18 Q. First page, second paragraph -- 18 question, Hey, these guys started in 1997.
19 A. Oh, I was on the second -- I'm 19 Here it is 2007. I haven't seen anything yet.
20 sorry. I was reading the sequence from the 20 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
21 back up. So let me -- may I continue to do 21 of the question.
22 that? 22 A. I don't think so.
23 Q. Why don't you do that, yep. 23 Q. Did anybody on the general
24 A. Okay. 24 managers' side of things phrase the question,
25 Q. And I'll ask some questions about 25 Commissioner, what's happening with this
Page 467 Page 469

1 it. 1 study? It's seven years on now, we haven't
2 A. That's fine. 2 seen anything.
3 (Document review.) 3 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the
4 A. Okay. 4 form of the question.
5 Q. Have you had a chance to look at 5 A. I'm not sure we hadn't seen
6 it? 6 anything. I think there was -- there was
7 A. Yes, I have. 7 ongoing collection of data. And I'm not
8 Q. Was it news to you that the 8 prepared to tell you we weren't seeing
9 Concussion Study Group was being disbanded 9 anything.
10 "really due to its inability to conclude the 10 Q. You can't identify anything in
11 analysis of the seven years of data 11 particular, though, that you received as a
12 collected"? 12 Commissioner that you understood also went to
13 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 13 the Players' Association from John Rizos.
14 of the question. 14 A. I don't recall.
15 A. I don't think it was being 15 Q. You asked the question: "Is it
16 disbanded. It was evolving into another form. 16 troubling that they couldn't complete the
17 And we were retaining Ruben Echemendia to run 17 study?"
18 it. 18 That suggests to me that you
19 And then if you read the full 19 hadn't actually been aware that they couldn't
20 text, what was happening is while Chip -- was 20 complete the study.
21 it Chip Burke? -- yeah, was the team doctor 21 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the
22 for Pittsburgh, the fact is apparently he 22 form.
23 wasn't being paid extra for doing this. And 23 A. No, I was asking was it troubling
24 so recognizing that we needed to improve 24 that they couldn't complete the study. It
25 things, we made some changes. 25 doesn't have a time reference in terms of when

612.338.3376
Page 470 Page 472

1 and why I'm asking the questions or what my 1 that process is well under way."
2 state of knowledge was at the time. 2 So while they obviously didn't
3 Q. Ms. Grand says: "It's really not 3 complete the study, the work was ongoing.
4 surprising that they have not dedicated the 4 Subject, of course, to the lockout.
5 necessary time because they weren't getting 5 Q. Have you ever spoken with John
6 paid." 6 Rizos about the work?
7 A. Which I just what I just -- well, 7 A. Rizos?
8 they weren't getting paid by us. They were 8 Q. Rizos.
9 still getting paid to be -- you know, Chip 9 -- about the work of the
10 Burke was still getting paid to be the team 10 Concussion Committee?
11 physician for Pittsburgh. 11 A. I don't believe so.
12 But I think whatever it was, 12 Q. Have you ever spoken with any PA
13 obviously we made a decision that we need to 13 representative on the Concussion Committee?
14 improve things. And that's why we went out 14 A. I've sure I've spoken to some
15 and retained Ruben, whose credentials couldn't 15 members at certain times. But I don't have a
16 have been better. And we pay him. 16 specific recollection of the conversation.
17 Q. Looking at Ms. Grand's e-mail to 17 Q. So you can't describe to me,
18 you, the main body of the first page, she 18 because of that, any discussion you had with a
19 says: "For several years the PA had put up 19 member of the PA concerning the PA's putting
20 roadblocks on the analysis of the data." 20 up roadblocks to the completion of the study.
21 That's what you were referring to 21 A. Well, actually, that wasn't the
22 previously, right? 22 question --
23 A. Yes. Correct. 23 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the
24 Q. Then she says: "The roadblocks 24 form of the question. That wasn't the
25 were somewhat eliminated three years ago and 25 question.
Page 471 Page 473

1 our focus at that time was obviously the CBA." 1 A. That wasn't the question you asked
2 A. Yes. 2 me. You asked me whether or not I spoke to
3 Q. I take it what she was talking 3 any of the PA's representative on the
4 about there was not the CBA with respect to 4 Concussion Working Group. Not whether I
5 this data in the program, but the CBA with 5 discussed it with respect to anybody at the
6 respect to the lockout. 6 PA.
7 A. Yes. It was a very difficult, 7 Q. Can you answer the last question
8 painful time, and disruptive for everything 8 that I asked, since I think that was the one I
9 that was going on because we were literally 9 intended to ask.
10 shut down for a year. And actually we were 10 A. Which is the last question you
11 probably shut down, as a practical matter in 11 asked?
12 terms of ongoing initiatives, for the year 12 MR. GOLDFEIN: Why don't you
13 leading up to the lockout. 13 restate the question.
14 Q. During this period that this study 14 A. Why don't you restate the
15 "has been dragging" to use Ms. Grand's phrase, 15 question.
16 were you aware of any communiques that went to 16 MR. GRYGIEL: I think I'll ask
17 the players about the status of the study? 17 Francis to read it back.
18 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the 18 THE WITNESS: Well, because we're
19 form of the question. 19 not sure which question we're talking
20 A. I don't -- I'm not aware of any. 20 about, right, Francis?
21 And by the way, "the study" is in quotes. I'm 21 THE COURT REPORTER: We'll see.
22 not sure -- we were still collecting raw data. 22 (Record read.)
23 It says: "Since we've returned post lockout, 23 MR. GOLDFEIN: No, that's a
24 the focus has been on verifying the raw data 24 different question. That's a different
25 to ensure its accuracy and completeness and 25 question.

612.338.3376
Page 474 Page 476

1 MR. GRYGIEL: It's the one I 1 (indicating).
2 intended. I'm sorry. 2 A. Oh, okay.
3 A. At what time frame are you talking 3 Q. Sorry.
4 about? 4 "I am thinking of coming out and
5 Q. Say 2007 through 2010. 5 saying it's time...to get rid of fighting or
6 6 at least to take major steps to reduce it. I
7 7 will need my boss's okay but thinking strongly
8 8 of it. I hated fighting...had to do it
9 9 though...particularly in the '70s. But it is
10 10 stupid. I don't remember one fight on pond
11 11 hockey or ball hockey. Will I get fried?
12 12 Will it work? I mean, the game in the NHL
13 13 without the great equalizer, i.e., fighting.
14 14
15 15 and there is no pressure on him to fight like
16 16 there was in the '70s or '80s! Think about
17 17 it."
18 18 Does this refresh your memory
19 (Discussion held off the record.) 19 about any discussion Colin Campbell had with
20 (Bettman Exhibit 50, e-mail dated 20 you?
21 1/12/2009 bearing production number 21 A. No.
22 NHL0031371, marked for identification as 22 Q. So he never --
23 of this date.) 23 MR. GOLDFEIN: I'm going to object
24 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 24 to form of the question and to your
25 Q. Have you ever seen this document 25 reading hearsay into the record.
Page 475 Page 477

1 before, sir? 1 Q. You were Mr. Campbell's boss.
2 A. Not that I recall. 2 A. Yes.
3 Am I c.c.'d on it anywhere? 3 Q. Did he ever tell you anything that
4 MR. GOLDFEIN: No. 4 suggested he was thinking strongly of coming
5 Q. You are not. 5 out and saying it's time to get rid of
6 A. I don't remember seeing it. 6 fighting because it's stupid?
7 Q. For the record, this is a e-mail 7 A. Not that I recall.
8 between Colin Campbell and Bob McKenzie dated 8 Q. Does that strike you as odd for
9 January 12th, 2009. Bates number NHL0031371. 9 Colin Campbell to be writing that?
10 And at the bottom you will see Mr. 10 A. Well, I think there are a few
11 McKenzie asks Colin Campbell a question about 11 things going on here.
12 Pronger's hit on Parise, correct? 12 Q. What are those things?
13 A. Um-hum. Apparently. 13 A. I'm going to tell you.
14 Q. And we work our way up and there's 14 Q. Thank you.
15 a friendly discussion between the two, isn't 15 A. One, he has a very good
16 there? 16 relationship with Bob McKenzie. And he may
17 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 17 have been taking his temperature.
18 of the question and the 18
19 characterization. 19
20 A. It's a discussion. It's not, by 20
21 its words, hostile. 21
22 Q. Mr. Campbell writes: "Question 22
23 for you...I am thinking of coming out" -- 23
24 A. Where are you looking? Oh. 24
25 Q. At the very top. Right here 25

612.338.3376
Page 478 Page 480

1 1 (Bettman Exhibit 51, Fighting
2 2 Analysis General Managers' Meeting -
3 3 March 9, 2009 bearing production numbers
5 5 for identification as of this date.)
6 6 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
7 7 Q. Showing you, Mr. Bettman, what we
8 8 have marked as Exhibit Number 51, you'll see
9 9 this is entitled Fighting Analysis, General
10 10 Managers' Meeting March 9, 2009.
11 11 And the first question, have you
12 12 ever seen this document before?
13 13 A. Well, I'm not sure whether or not
14 14 I saw it in this form.
15 15 Also, I think this is a draft,
16 16 because there are handwritten notes on it.
17 17 Q. Or it was somebody's copy that
18 18 they marked.
19 19 A. I don't know.
20 20 Q. Turning to the second page you'll
21 21 see it says "GM's meeting (Fighting)
22 22 March/09."
23 23 Do you know whose handwriting that
24 24 is?
25 25 A. No, I don't.
Page 479 Page 481

1 1 Q. Prior to March 9, 2009, had you
2 2 ever seen a fighting analysis done during your
3 3 tenure as Commissioner?
4 4 A. I don't recall.
5 5 Q. Do you know who prepared this
6 6 fighting analysis, whether it's a draft or
7 7 not?
8 8 A. It would be a guess that it was
9 9 Gary Meagher.
10 10 Q. And you would expect that Mr.
11 11 Meagher would have access to all of the data
12 12 he needed for purposes of making the comments
13 13 and writing the bullet points that are in this
14 14 document.
15 15 A. Unless this is a complete
16 16 fabrication, I would assume so.
17 17 Q. Turning a little farther in, just
18 A. Huh? I don't understand what you 18 take a look at page 5, Commissioner.
19 just said. So I'm not subscribing to it. 19 (Witness complies.)
20 Q. Fair enough. I think two more. 20 Q. Just let's look at that box there.
21 MR. GOLDFEIN: Two more and that's 21 The Early Years - 1917-1949. Fighting in the
22 it? 22 game predates the NHL.
23 MR. GRYGIEL: Could be. But I'm 23 Do you recognize whose handwriting
24 going to take a couple minutes and take 24 that is?
25 a look and we might be done. 25 A. No.

612.338.3376
Page 482 Page 484

1 Q. It says: "It's 'part' of the 1 Q. Does this refresh your memory
2 game. 'No bias - no bull.' No spin/agenda." 2 about any discussion, Why are we changing the
3 Do you have any idea what that 3 instigator rule penalty from a game misconduct
4 refers to? 4 to a ten-minute misconduct when it's been so
5 A. No. 5 effective to reduce fighting?
6 Q. Do you remember any discussion at 6 A. You'd have to look at everything
7 the general managers' meeting about that 7 else that was going on at the game. Maybe
8 particular entry, the early years? 8 other penalties were going up. Maybe there
9 A. I don't have a recollection. 9 was a concern about slashing or hits on star
10 Q. If you look at page 9, and then 10 players.
11 come forward, you'll see there is essentially 11 I don't remember specifically in
12 a history of how fighting has progressed or 12 1996/97 why the change was made. My guess is
13 evolved in the National Hockey League. 13 the minutes of the GM meeting would probably
14 Does this refresh your memory any 14 reflect it.
15 further about discussions you had about 15 Q. Had any general manager made the
16 putting this document together for purposes of 16 comment that their fans were unhappy with the
17 the meeting? 17 reduction in fighting?
18 MR. GOLDFEIN: Objection to the 18 A. I don't recall.
19 form of the question. 19 Q. Do you remember any member of the
20 A. No. I don't think I had anything 20 Board of Governors saying Our fans are unhappy
21 to do with putting this document together. 21 because fighting is down?
22 Q. Did you ask for it to be put 22 A. I don't recall.
23 together? 23 (Bettman Exhibit 52, document
24 A. I may have. I don't recall. 24 headed Fighting bearing production
25 Obviously somebody did. 25 numbers NHL0230630 through NHL0230637,
Page 483 Page 485

1 Q. If you would turn to page 18, do 1 marked for identification as of this
2 you see it refers to "The 1990's - 'The 2 date.)
3 Instigator's Role'." 3 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
4 A. Yes. 4 Q. Showing you, Commissioner, what
5 Q. And if you look at the two bullet 5 we're marking as Exhibit Number 52, you will
6 points there, I think you'll see it 6 see that this appears to be a copy of a
7 corroborates something I mentioned earlier 7 Powerpoint presentation that is associated
8 without the benefit of this document. 8 with the fighting analysis we just looked at.
9 You'd agree with me that this 9 MR. GOLDFEIN: I'll object to that
10 document shows that the instigator penalty in 10 as your characterization. You need to
11 terms of its magnitude of the penalty affected 11 ask questions to establish a foundation.
12 player behavior. 12 Q. Well, let me ask that question.
13 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 13 Do you know who prepared this --
14 of the question. 14 A. Well, what is this?
15 A. The document speaks for itself. 15 Q. Well, it appears to be a group of
16 Q. And it says just that, doesn't it? 16 screen shots.
17 A. It says what it says. 17 A. Of what?
18 Q. 13 percent increase in instigator 18 Q. Of a presentation on fighting that
19 penalties after the penalty was reduced and 19 goes with the fighting analysis at the general
20 when it was first enforced it was 33 percent 20 managers' meeting, March 9, 2009.
21 decline in the instigator penalty. In 21 MR. GOLDFEIN: I'll object to the
22 fighting majors, I should say. 22 form of the question. That's your
23 MR. GOLDFEIN: Is there a 23 statement. You need to ask questions,
24 question? 24 Counsel, unless you're making a
25 A. Well, it says what it says. 25 representation of fact that you know to

612.338.3376
Page 486 Page 488

1 be the case. 1 indicates that there are missing pages
2 MR. GRYGIEL: I'm saying what it 2 to this document.
3 appears to be based on the minutes and 3 MR. GRYGIEL: Hmm.
4 based on the fighting analysis. 4 A. Well, there you have it.
5 MR. GOLDFEIN: Again, you need to 5 Q. There you have it.
6 establish a foundation. 6 MR. GOLDFEIN: I'll object to the
7 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 7 use of the document.
8 Q. Looking at this, Commissioner, 8 A. And I'm just giving you an
9 does it -- 9 educated guess as to what this is.
10 A. Let me look it at it, please. 10 MR. GRYGIEL: And I will say, for
11 Q. Go ahead, sure. 11 the record, I do remember seeing, when I
12 A. I'm going to try to figure out 12 was looking for something to go with
13 what this is for us. 13 this, and it was too late to put it
14 MR. GOLDFEIN: Is this a full 14 together, there was a memo somewhere
15 document, Counsel? A complete document? 15 that had this I think showing as an icon
16 MR. GRYGIEL: As far as I know, 16 at the bottom. That's the best I can
17 yes. 17 do.
18 (Document review.) 18 MR. GOLDFEIN: Well, all I can
19 A. Okay. I'll tell you what I think 19 tell you is the numbers that you
20 this is. 20 identified for this document started
21 Q. Please do. 21 with 0630 in the Bates but went through
22 22 735. And as you see, the document
23 23 doesn't go through 735.
24 24 MR. GRYGIEL: No. It seems to end
25 25 with a bullet and then a lot more space
Page 487 Page 489

1 1 at the end. So I don't know where --
2 2 MR. GOLDFEIN: So it's an
3 3 incomplete document is my only point.
4 4 A. It's really a document with
5 5 educated guesses.
6 6 MR. GOLDFEIN: With educated
7 7 guesses.
8 8 A. I guess none of us should have
9 9 done that.
15 15 Q. I'm showing you 53. You'll see
16 16 this is a one-page document, Colin Campbell to
17 17 Mike Media. I'll represent that's Mike
18 18 Milbury because that's what Mr. Campbell told
19 19 me.
20 20 A. Um-hum.
21 21 Q. You'll see at the top --
22 22 A. We talked about Mike Milbury
23 MR. GOLDFEIN: For the record, 23 before.
24 Counsel, entry number 18 on your list of 24 Q. Yes, we did.
25 potential exhibits for the deposition 25 My question isn't about Mr.

612.338.3376
Page 490 Page 492

1 Milbury here. It's about Mr. Campbell 1 rinks would play Rocky music when a fight was
2 actually. 2 under way?
3 And you will see -- 3 A. Yes. I've seen that.
4 A. Did you ask Mr. Campbell about Mr. 4 Q. And that's part of the
5 Campbell? 5 "entertainment" part of the game?
6 Q. Pardon? 6 A. It is what it is.
7 Yes, I did ask Mr. Campbell about 7 Q. And is that what Mr. Campbell was
8 Mr. Campbell. 8 referring to there?
9 A. Good. 9 A. I don't believe so. I think you
10 Q. You'll see he says: "We promote 10 need to ask Mr. Campbell what he was referring
11 and sell hate." 11 to. Especially since I don't see myself on
12 Do you agree with that? 12 this e-mail.
13 A. Who says that? 13 Q. You're not.
14 Q. Mr. Campbell says that. 14 A. Okay.
15 A. Well, he doesn't promote or sell 15 MR. GRYGIEL: We'll take five
16 anything. I think what he was saying -- 16 here. I'll see if I have anything left
17 that's what he was saying to Mike about the 17 then we can finish at least from my end.
18 way the game gets promoted sometimes by our 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
19 broadcasters. I think that's where Rivalry 19 7:06. We're going off the record.
20 Night that NBC came from came from. I think 20 (Recess taken.)
21 we promote that it's an emotional game. 21 (Bettman Exhibit 54, e-mail dated
22 Q. Well, he said "we," and I can only 22 1/26/2011 bearing production numbers
23 understand that to the mean National Hockey 23 NHL0033467 through NHL0033468, marked
24 League. 24 for identification as of this date.)
25 A. Don't read these things too 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
Page 491 Page 493

1 literally. 1 7:18. We're back on the record.
2 Q. Did you ever discuss that question 2 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
3 with Mr. Campbell, whether the NHL actually 3
4 sells hate? 4
5 A. No. 5
6 Q. Did you ever discuss with him 6
7 whether -- 7
8 A. He's not involved in the marketing 8
9 and promotion of the game. Other than 9
10 providing Milbury with answers to questions as 10
11 something that may have happened, he's not the 11
12 one who deals with the promotion of the game 12
13 with our broadcasters. 13
14 Q. You're familiar with something 14
15 called the "Cam cam," aren't you? 15
16 A. The what? 16
17 Q. Cam cam. The Cam Jansen camera? 17
18 He was a fighter in the League. 18
19 A. Okay. I know who he was. I don't 19
20 know about the Cam -- 20
21 Q. When he fought, the arena would 21
22 focus the camera on him and put on the 22
23 Jumbotron the slugs and the hits? 23
24 A. No. 24
25 Q. Are you aware that some of the 25

612.338.3376
Page 494 Page 496

1 1
2 2
3 3
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 10
11 11
12 12
13 13
14 14
15 15
16 16
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22
23 23 Q. And I'll rest with that then.
24 24 Thank you.
25 25 MR. KEYTE: Oh, that's not the big
Page 495 Page 497

1 1 rest.
2 2 MR. GRYGIEL: No.
3 3 THE WITNESS: No. Rest with that
4 4 on this document. I didn't take it to
5 5 be the big one.
6 6 MR. GRYGIEL: No.
7 7 THE WITNESS: You know what?
8 8 We've come this far.
9 9 MR. GRYGIEL: Hope springs
10 10 eternal.
11 11 THE WITNESS: We've come this far.
12 12 It's okay.
13 13 MR. GRYGIEL: But hope springs
14 14 eternal.
15 15 THE WITNESS: It is what it is.
21 21 Q. Fifty-six, Commissioner, is a
22 22 single-page document, Bates number 1060781.
23 23 This is an e-mail chain between you and Colin
24 24 Campbell.
25 25 You don't have any doubt this was

612.338.3376
Page 498 Page 500

1 an e-mail sent and received in the ordinary 1 begins with number 1, Chronic Traumatic
2 course of your business. 2 Encephalopathy.
3 A. At 8:50 at night, yeah. 3 A. Yep.
4 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form 4 Q. Have you ever seen any
5 of the question. 5 presentations to the general managers about
6 (Document review.) 6 any other form of neurodegenerative disease
7 A. Okay. What's your question? 7 besides CTE?
8 8 A. Not that I recall. But it
9 9 wouldn't surprise me that based on all the
10 10 attention that this has been getting in the
11 11 newspapers that we would want to again educate
12 12 our players -- our players and our general
13 13 managers as much as possible so that they
14 about a discussion with Colin Campbell on this 14 would understand what we were -- what the
15 subject? 15 issues were that were being presented in the
16 A. Not that I recall. 16 media.
17 (Bettman Exhibit 57, Concussion 17 Q. Were members of the NHLPA in
18 Report General Managers March 12-13, 18 attendance at this meeting?
19 2012 bearing production numbers 19 A. I don't think so. I mean, there's
20 NHL0035749 through NHL0035788, marked 20 a section of our GMs' meeting where the PA
21 for identification as of this date.) 21 does attend. But I can't tell you for certain
22 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 22 they were here for this. Probably not.
23 Q. Showing you, Commissioner, what 23 They're generally there for the rules
24 we've marked as Exhibit Number 57. It's 24 discussion.
25 entitled Concussion Report General Managers 25 Q. Did any of the general managers
Page 499 Page 501

1 March 12-13, 2012. 1 say that with this information about CTE
2 Have you seen this document 2 perhaps the League might refine its warnings
3 before? 3 to players about their risks of playing the
4 A. I've seen the presentation. 4 game?
5 Q. Okay. 5 A. Nope.
6 A. I don't know if it was exactly 6 (Bettman Exhibit 58, e-mail dated
7 this one because I'm not the one who prepared 7 4/15/2013 bearing production numbers
8 it, but I saw the concussion report that was 8 NHL0129248 through NHL0129269, marked
9 presented to the general managers at their 9 for identification as of this date.)
10 March 2012 meeting. 10 BY MR. GRYGIEL:
11 Q. Easy question. 11 Q. Just showing you 58. And all I'm
12 Do you know who actually put the 12 going to ask here, Commissioner, if you will
13 slide presentation together? 13 take a look at this and tell me if this is a
14 A. No. 14 document that you received in the regular
15 Q. You would expect that the 15 course of your business.
16 statistics and the data that were included in 16 And, for the record, I'll identify
17 this were accurate? 17 it as dated March -- or April 15, 2013.
18 A. I would hope so. 18 Begins with the Bates number NHL0129248
19 Q. And these would come from records 19 through -269. And you'll see it attaches CWG
20 compiled by the National Hockey League? 20 clean retest paper.
21 A. I would hope so. I can't tell you 21 A. Okay.
22 for certain because I'm not the one who 22 Q. You don't have any reason to doubt
23 produced it, but I assume everybody did what 23 that this is something you read and received
24 they were supposed to do. 24 in the ordinary course of your business?
25 Q. And you see the third page in 25 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form

612.338.3376
Page 502 Page 504

1 of the question. 1 with documents and we're almost out of time.
2 A. I don't recall if I read it at the 2 I'd like to ask you, have I given
3 time. But I have no doubt that I received it 3 you a full opportunity to answer my questions
4 because it says it was e-mailed to me. 4 today?
5 Q. You'll see on the second page 5 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
6 there is a reference to one- and four- -- 6 of the question. The record will speak
7 A. Wait one second. I'm reading the 7 for itself.
8 first page. 8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Go ahead. 9 Q. Do you feel like I've cut you off
10 (Document review.) 10 from anything you've wanted to say?
11 A. Okay. 11 A. Not that I recall.
12 Q. Does this refresh your 12 Q. Is there anything you want to add
13 recollection -- 13 in response to any question that I've asked
14 A. What page are you on? 14 you today?
15 Q. The second page. 15 MR. GOLDFEIN: Object to the form
16 You'll see there is a reference to 16 of the question. He would need to know
17 a Jared Bruce, Amber Sisco, William Meeuwisse, 17 all the questions and answers to answer
18 Paul Comper and Ruben Echemendia. 18 that question.
19 Does this refresh your memory 19 A. We've been here almost eight hours
20 about a discussion about the reliability of 20 of deposition time. I think you've had ample
21 the baseline testing that had been used in the 21 opportunity to ask me what you want and I've
22 NHL? 22 had ample opportunity to respond as well.
23 A. No. But it does, if you read the 23 Q. With that, Commissioner, I reserve
24 cover note, indicate that based on the 24 my rights pending any questions of other
25 findings, we changed our protocol to make it 25 counsel. I am done and I thank you for your
Page 503 Page 505

1 better. 1 patience and your courtesy.
2 (Bettman Exhibit 59, document 2 A. Thank you as well.
3 headed National Headache League bearing 3 MR. GOLDFEIN: I have an hour's
4 production numbers NHL0208920 through 4 worth of -- I'm just kidding.
5 NHL0208924, marked for identification as 5 No questions.
6 of this date.) 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
7 BY MR. GRYGIEL: 7 7:30. We're off the record.
8 Q. Finally, Commissioner, I'm showing 8 (Time Noted: 7:31 p.m.)
9 you Exhibit Number 59. This is a document, a 9
10 reprint from Outside the Lines. It says 10
11 National -- it's cut off. National Headache 11
12 League. And -- 12
13 A. Do you know the date of this 13
14 article? 14
15 Q. I did. And I'm drawing a blank 15
16 right now. 16
17 My question simply is do you 17
18 recognize the handwriting on it? 18
19 A. No. 19 ____________________
20 Q. The article is dated, actually -- 20 GARY BETTMAN
21 it's not on this, but I will represent to you 21
22 it was in 2012. 22 Subscribed and sworn to before me
23 A. I don't know whose handwriting 23 this ___ day of __________, 2015.
24 that is. 24
25 Q. With that, Commissioner, I'm done 25 _________________________________

612.338.3376
Page 506
1 CERTIFICATE
2
3 STATE OF NEW YORK )
4 : ss.
5 COUNTY OF NEW YORK )
6 I, FRANCIS X. FREDERICK, a
7 Notary Public within and for the State
8 of New York, do hereby certify:
9 That GARY BETTMAN, the witness
10 whose deposition is hereinbefore set
11 forth, was duly sworn by me and that
12 such deposition is a true record of
13 the testimony given by the witness.
14 I further certify that I am not
15 related to any of the parties to this
16 action by blood or marriage, and that
17 I am in no way interested in the
18 outcome of this matter.
19 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have
20 hereunto set my hand this 6th day of
21 August, 2015.
22
23
24 _____________________
25 FRANCIS X. FREDERICK

612.338.3376
Page 507
1 NAME OF CASE: NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE
2 CONCUSSION LITIGATION
3 DATE OF DEPOSITION: JULY 31, 2015
4 NAME OF WITNESS: GARY BETTMAN
5 Reason codes:
1. To clarify the record.
6 2. To conform to the facts.
3. To correct transcription errors.
7 Page _______ Line ______ Reason _____
From __________________ to _____________
8
Page _______ Line ______ Reason _____
9 From __________________ to _____________
10 Page _______ Line ______ Reason _____
From __________________ to _____________
11
Page _______ Line ______ Reason _____
12 From __________________ to _____________
13 Page _______ Line ______ Reason _____
From __________________ to _____________
14
Page _______ Line ______ Reason _____
15 From __________________ to _____________
16 Page _______ Line ______ Reason _____
From __________________ to _____________
17
Page _______ Line ______ Reason _____
18 From __________________ to _____________
19 Page _______ Line ______ Reason _____
From __________________ to _____________
20
Page _______ Line ______ Reason _____
21 From __________________ to _____________
22 Page _______ Line ______ Reason _____
From __________________ to _____________
23
____________________________
24
GARY BETTMAN
25

612.338.3376
Page 508
A acceptable 336:9,20,25 213:14 affiliated 312:25

$25,000 57:3 97:15 337:5,24 adequately 26:24 313:2
a.m 15:15 454:10 338:7 246:12 170:14 344:21
Abe 36:3 464:7 339:11 adjust 229:6 affirmatively 378:16
aberration acceptance act 246:5 381:2 457:4 382:4
463:15 154:6 253:2 adjusted aforementi... 392:16
ability 18:18 accepting 275:13 234:6 384:9 247:19 396:11,14
18:22 43:16 129:22 443:7 adjusting afraid 258:10 403:20
76:24 153:4 access acting 299:9 83:23 258:13 437:3 449:5
173:21 481:11 action 56:6 adjustment aftereffects 456:20
233:19 accomplish 127:8 227:6 385:18,24 23:19 25:13 483:9
237:21 59:14 403:24 410:13 afternoon 490:12
276:18 accountabi... 506:16 adjustments 194:10,11 agreeable
439:11 125:25 actions 129:4 356:3 373:5,6 313:10
440:1 accountable 454:24 Admin 147:10 Agency 15:13 agreed 73:7
able 32:16 138:13 active 250:5 administered agenda 24:25 116:15
59:14 93:15 accounts actively 230:10 agent 111:4 282:11
169:12 464:25 45:23 administra... agents 417:6 297:11,23
174:24 accumulated activity 354:4 379:4 aggression 297:24
229:14 450:20 acts 125:24 administra... 449:25 456:17
278:7 accuracy 158:4 245:8 47:4 293:4 agita 143:3 457:10
305:13 190:14 449:25 293:7 ago 23:25 478:4
323:20 471:25 actual 64:13 admire 32:14 26:21,23 agreeing
339:15 accurate 348:24 admission 106:14 259:6 267:9
381:20 78:25 79:17 359:1 279:3 132:16 267:9,12
427:13 90:15,17,21 443:22 admit 342:13 154:9 281:22
absence 100:23 464:22 adopt 309:4 156:11 282:1
135:25 183:6 actuaries adopted 38:2 180:19 300:20
423:7 186:12 200:9 adult 164:23 183:7 436:1
absolute 189:3 190:5 acuity 434:18 advance 245:10 agreement
78:25 341:14 ad 112:8 28:14 48:9 338:2 106:4 282:8
406:21 355:18 adamant 80:16,18,21 360:20 320:9 321:1
429:25 499:17 143:13 219:9 361:10 321:7,21
absolutely accurately 493:24 442:23 385:6,11 344:24
74:13 107:5 43:11 494:17 advantage 391:12 441:1,4,9
131:22 333:10 adapt 227:25 345:15 414:10 441:17,22
159:9 245:7 433:25 280:19,20 advice 154:15 422:2 434:6 442:2,23
279:1 342:5 accusing 282:3,3 advisability 470:25 agrees 168:7
370:22 455:3 adapted 295:5 agree 38:18 Ah 384:18
393:10,11 achievable 228:20 advise 24:24 38:22 39:2 Aha 413:24
394:10 260:14 adapting advised 73:16,24,25 ahead 43:6
408:22 achieve 288:9 47:21 92:18 105:13,15
457:17 300:20 add 32:3 advising 128:18 109:3 148:7
478:6 achieving 504:12 185:2 132:21 212:5 230:7
absorbed 261:5 addition advisor 94:24 141:16 263:7
218:23 acknowledge 203:24 advisory 24:7 154:16 285:22
abstract 58:24 364:2 383:3 361:23 167:6 341:6
127:5 422:10 457:22 advocate 202:24 349:15
147:24 acknowled... additional 379:7 204:9 394:5 400:6
383:20 352:10,22 36:16 advocated 227:23 410:2
absurd acknowled... additions 241:23 256:23 436:13
229:17 189:18 280:6 advocating 260:3,12 486:11
abuse 213:8 acrylic address 87:25 243:6 267:7 494:7 502:9
213:19 305:15 153:12 affect 234:13 273:20 AHL 110:9
abusers 334:4,20 227:5 418:6 381:11,14 281:21 235:1,2,2,4
223:5 335:7,16 adequate 443:23 282:4 292:3 235:6,18

612.338.3376
Page 509
238:21 382:3 answer 20:20 antecedent 459:14 appreciates

267:19 analyses 48:5 30:10 34:15 256:17 apparently 376:20
406:5,7 206:19 43:23 44:23 anticipate 96:22 97:7 approach
465:9 analysis 8:4 47:16 50:22 428:11 126:18 81:25
aims 195:24 13:4 45:4 50:23 58:3 anticipated 202:16 319:16
akin 209:24 46:7 152:25 62:15 81:6 368:15 249:5 263:9 344:7
alcohol 185:8 81:20 89:20 anxiety 354:13 365:13
274:12 224:24 91:3 98:8 176:25 387:2 397:4 366:9
Alexander 234:20 109:8 112:7 178:8 433:13 appropriate
143:7 235:10 122:11 anybody 451:9 66:11 168:6
alienate 237:15 124:9,12 45:18 454:13 176:15
278:13 257:9 125:14 120:20 467:22 185:2 199:6
alleged 183:1 300:12 126:21 140:5 475:13 appropriat...
allow 81:11 301:11,18 127:19 143:15 appeal 59:7 97:6
allowed 301:21,22 130:12,20 152:22 401:13 100:9
113:18 302:1,2,7 136:3,11 171:14 Appeals approval
280:18 307:4,22 140:25 173:24 250:24 454:6
allowing 308:11 166:4 218:6 219:2 appear 20:15 approve
127:17 369:18 172:10 221:10 420:7 133:12,16
254:19 465:5 179:19,20 251:3 appearances 237:9
allows 69:14 467:11 188:6,13,24 274:25 15:17 approving
232:4 470:20 190:5 291:18 appeared 358:23
ALS 159:16 480:2,9 205:21 299:9 97:9 approxima...
alter 231:2 481:2,6 211:2 308:25 appears 29:13 39:23
altercation 485:8,19 218:10 310:21 147:7 221:8 430:24
400:9 486:4 221:9 319:5 363:2 389:5 April 501:17
alumni 290:6 analytic 233:10,12 337:15 393:16 area 30:5
299:4,10 170:6 249:12 346:7 408:4 175:12
Alzheimer's analytical 275:3 279:1 364:23 424:19 181:3 303:6
159:13 139:21 319:14 369:16 485:6,15 384:18
165:16 140:4,14 385:14 379:2,7 486:3 areas 278:11
166:6 analyze 405:8 419:4 412:5,9,12 apples 294:17
amateur 318:20 421:6 417:9 424:2 234:23 arena 491:21
207:13 335:2 427:11 428:8 445:7 applicability arenas 304:2
Amber analyzed 430:7 465:4 199:23 304:12
502:17 224:6,12 442:16 468:17,23 application 305:7
ambiguous analyzing 456:13 473:5 88:13 argue 273:18
273:8 21:9 40:12 473:7 504:3 anymore 237:19 273:22
America 381:19 504:17 364:19 383:21 argument
285:10 anecdotal answered anyway 414:3 345:12
American 306:12 62:25 63:7 111:11 applied 73:14 argumenta...
233:21 angle 322:10 63:14,15 271:21 225:3 231:9 63:10 99:4
285:3 angles 78:4 167:2 273:4 339:6 232:20 188:19,22
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403:5 43:7,9 52:6 258:12 319:5 322:7 466:7,10 83:10 86:10
raised 87:12 53:2,7 69:2 272:14 329:9 338:1 495:3 86:11 87:3
87:15 69:11 79:25 353:19 344:14 501:22 94:11,21
306:17 80:7,11 374:22 352:10 507:5,7,8 98:20 99:21
402:3 81:10,12,15 425:25 368:25 507:10,11 99:22
raises 264:14 81:16,18,24 433:8 369:1 507:13,14 104:16
264:16,17 82:7,16,21 439:18 389:23 507:16,17 116:17
raising 83:11 95:5 466:20 395:13 507:19,20 118:4,5
341:17 95:7 96:13 476:25 401:8 507:22 119:9
366:18 102:3 493:25 416:11 reasonable 134:16
ran 306:3 110:19 502:7 417:23 63:3 395:2 135:14
range 176:12 120:3,5 reads 81:10 418:14 reasonably 136:4 137:7
ranked 420:1 121:10 147:25 427:5 218:7 143:2,11
ranks 344:11 134:3,5 367:10 448:18 reasoned 147:4
406:2 139:15 448:21 467:10 235:11 151:18
rash 463:15 148:9,10,12 449:22 470:3 489:4 reasons 153:13,21
rate 55:16 148:15 real 78:24 reason 39:17 32:14 58:19 169:22
124:23 177:6 180:17 39:18 68:3 85:9 92:18 170:25
rates 55:15 181:14 393:8 80:15 90:14 101:13 171:6,7,12
rating 160:2 202:24 realistic 90:16,25 107:16 171:13
rational 203:3,4 127:24 96:6,9 113:5 173:8
140:3 241:11 393:12 113:13 153:18 176:21
rationale 265:21 395:1 119:10,22 255:10 184:2,9
137:15,21 273:15 realistically 145:13 264:7 283:6 186:5 187:5
382:8 277:1 260:14 155:12 298:2 191:16
rationally 311:24 realities 158:8 323:24 192:13
268:12,15 329:22 261:5 272:8 175:13 387:17 195:16,20
Raton 3:21 356:13 reality 107:17 176:22 403:25 196:11
6:15 78:9 364:15 realize 80:16 207:6 229:4 411:13 198:4 201:9
78:19 371:24 realized 233:17 448:15 206:25
219:14 391:10 349:3 247:25 456:7 207:4 214:8
rats 126:2 395:14 really 20:14 251:24 461:11 215:9,12,15
138:11 399:24 58:17 262:12 recall 18:18 215:20,24
345:15 416:10 106:11 278:16 19:3,4 216:22,23
raw 471:22 419:4 107:6 280:8,12 21:11 22:23 216:24
471:24 430:13 109:15 294:5 22:24 23:2 221:14
Ray 402:4,12 433:11 131:24 299:16 23:7 24:4 224:22
402:13 434:20 140:6 308:19 24:11,13 230:10
re-examine 436:11 151:14 324:12 25:20,25 236:25
213:24 450:25 167:22 328:1 26:25 27:18 244:23
reach 189:25 453:14,18 210:13 339:19 28:1,12,24 247:24
386:15 467:19 214:25 341:12 29:4 30:23 250:11
455:25 473:17,22 216:9 342:14 31:18,23 290:10
reached 490:25 217:25 344:6 32:1 33:6 295:7 299:8
197:18 494:5 222:13 360:14 37:8 40:5 299:12
258:4 496:19 240:10 364:5 370:8 40:13 42:2 304:4,9
reacted 501:23 242:20 371:20 42:3,7,14 309:8,12
306:14 502:2,23 250:5 374:7 380:6 44:23 46:22 310:25
reacting reading 266:20 387:13 48:23 49:4 333:6 347:1
283:2 397:9 22:11 69:8 268:3,18 388:6 51:22,23 360:15
reaction 81:6 83:1 275:5,8 408:13,16 52:1 54:19 362:10,12

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364:9,10,22 502:3 286:15 373:3 230:18 310:18,20

365:14,15 receives 297:9,15 374:23 405:25 347:11
366:10,18 157:14 339:6 347:8 391:1 408:21 363:15
366:19 receiving 352:5 414:18 419:15 367:17
374:24 362:10 358:18 424:25 420:2 370:15
379:6,9 receptive 360:22 431:1,3,6 423:23 382:15
385:4 400:4 312:21 366:13 433:11 424:21 470:21
402:1 recess 114:25 377:7 439:18 refereed 492:8,10
418:19,23 193:12 387:20 444:25 419:13 494:18
421:18 301:5 373:1 391:23 473:22 424:1 498:9,11
428:5 431:4 397:25 474:19 refereeing refers 53:22
429:23 492:20 399:9,11 475:7 406:20 116:23
432:9,20 recipient 402:8 476:25 416:25 120:16
442:8 68:1 211:19 415:12 487:23 417:21 190:22
444:24 325:1 333:3 425:25 488:11 referees 202:17
448:9 451:4 428:14 448:3 464:2 492:19 227:14,15 205:3
453:11 458:17 472:16 493:1 229:3 215:25
463:19 recipients 482:9 501:16 230:16 330:4
468:11 350:9 502:13 504:6 505:7 323:17 382:12
469:14 recognize recommen... 506:12 403:14 394:18
475:2 477:7 52:11,13 35:13 129:6 507:5 404:7,17 399:25
478:18 147:22 129:23 recorded 405:21 425:11
481:4 451:18,20 recommen... 65:12 reference 433:15
482:24 481:23 92:4,5 120:18 186:25 482:4 483:2
484:18,22 503:18 record 15:14 records 35:16 187:10,19 refine 383:24
493:15 recognized 15:17 20:25 298:17 195:22 501:2
498:16 150:8,13 36:1 40:19 499:19 248:19 refinement
500:8 502:2 recognizing 43:9 57:13 recovering 282:18 379:19
504:11 359:1 73:12 79:11 416:17 297:14 reflect 109:16
recalled 467:24 95:7 108:8 reduce 396:3 162:6
331:16 recollect 109:16 245:21 447:20 282:13
receive 47:12 397:25 114:2,24 246:1 469:25 484:14
66:11 214:5 recollection 115:2 257:14,15 502:6,16 487:5
352:17 26:1,20 127:21 312:25 referencing reflected
416:3 428:3 27:17 28:6 134:5 317:12,22 191:11 75:20
468:12 29:18,19 148:23 318:15 referred reflexes
received 68:4 30:22 32:11 149:7 155:4 383:24 104:6 129:1 92:14
96:7 119:24 33:5,14 165:8 454:23 129:2 170:6 refresh 26:1
122:5 35:6 36:15 193:11 457:12 177:23 36:9 66:12
151:22 36:18 41:1 194:4 476:6 484:5 204:16,22 72:13 79:15
155:13 41:3 51:14 196:10 reduced 232:22 83:6 93:21
202:4 52:7 57:3 219:24 231:24,24 248:22 94:1 103:20
203:10 72:14 79:15 238:13 256:7 465:9 249:3 108:14
211:23 79:20 80:12 254:12,14 483:19 268:16 112:1
248:1 87:17 93:21 254:15,17 reduces 394:2 186:17
251:25 95:15 99:8 264:6 270:2 232:15 referring 189:22
262:14 103:24 270:9 280:1 reducing 51:8 53:10 192:20
280:9 294:7 108:14 283:18 28:20 33:3 105:3 114:4 194:15
350:15 177:13 301:4,7 33:9 244:4 129:2 212:4
374:8 192:20 302:13 334:25 152:13 223:23
421:21 194:16 324:18 reduction 153:24 270:3 297:4
462:19 212:4 326:18 464:24 181:25 377:6
466:8 214:12 328:18 484:17 196:5 216:9 387:19
469:11 221:10 359:12 refer 265:9 272:25 397:20
498:1 224:2 371:12 272:24 281:6 399:11
501:14,23 236:15 372:23,25 referee 298:13 402:9,19

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445:13 370:16 502:20 402:4,6,12 122:19 163:11
451:1 386:7 relied 26:3 409:15,17 142:15 176:20
453:20 regulate 99:10 409:18 375:13 201:11
463:20 245:6 relief 452:21 428:8 377:10 269:3
466:11 Regus 361:9 rely 24:9 460:18 464:8 289:16
476:18 Reimer 99:13 475:6 repetitive 296:3
482:14 117:13 358:21 476:10 156:20,23 320:15
484:1 reinforced relying 266:1 482:6 207:14 373:22
495:10 72:17 remain 484:11,19 replace 132:2 489:17
502:12,19 reinstate 111:14 488:11 Replacement 503:21
refreshed 448:23 remainder 498:13 334:3 representa...
80:12 reiterating 68:23 reminded replay 231:13 155:19,21
refreshes 66:4 266:25 remained 55:5 435:11 report 5:24 240:17
79:19 reject 74:13 116:2 reminding 14:4 53:22 456:23
refreshing rejecting remarkable 112:11 53:24 54:3 485:25
51:14 382:13 59:14 reminds 54:24,25 representa...
415:15 related 118:14 172:18 116:22 283:9,19
regard 37:20 198:20 remember removable 164:3 472:13
161:3 223:3 25:1,6,11 460:19 172:13,16 473:3
189:17 242:21 30:25 31:3 removal 180:24 representa...
190:14 326:2 363:7 36:2 41:10 241:23 181:7,10,24 170:8
440:20 363:11 41:20 42:9 remove 85:1 195:3,6 308:13
regarded 434:21 46:24 66:20 112:2 196:24 represented
431:20 444:1 454:8 72:16 75:2 460:22 197:16 197:6
Regardless 506:15 75:17 116:1 removed 305:12 295:24
255:9 relates 51:25 141:18,20 297:1 445:24 421:21
regards 118:20 142:21 448:23 448:16 representing
416:23 428:24 152:3 153:8 removing 487:4 240:20
417:5 relations 153:20 286:5 498:18,25 248:5 254:4
Reggie 16:22 180:25 remunerati... 499:8 265:23
220:20 175:10 199:12 168:19 reported 1:24 295:14
222:9 relationship 201:2 repealed 24:16 421:3,5
regime 168:18 212:16 139:2 103:16 represents
273:10 278:10 213:16 repeat 95:4 224:7 93:19
343:10,14 423:14 244:14,19 290:19 reporter 15:9 157:17,22
regional 441:22,24 252:20 319:23 16:6 136:8 158:1
284:11 442:20 263:4 264:1 320:3,9,24 142:10 454:13
Register 443:1,21 266:19 repeated 170:2 reprint
186:7,11,18 444:3 276:16 150:2 151:4 430:23 503:10
189:11,16 477:16 277:18,21 151:13,22 473:21 reps 284:11
189:21,25 relative 281:10 160:5,9 reporting reputation
190:15 200:1 286:10 163:20 15:12 43:19 222:4,5
regular 47:12 relatively 297:7 164:12,18 65:11 request
47:15,25 257:1 304:10,18 165:15 158:23 487:18
64:16,19 260:25 306:1 166:15 190:13 require 226:8
65:2 68:12 release 212:7 307:17,19 167:23 221:4 300:10,12
68:17 76:9 212:9,19 307:21,25 174:15 reports 47:12 300:14,15
98:4 142:25 released 308:21 175:23 47:15,20,25 337:23
248:2,2 362:13 313:14 176:24 48:10,15,19 required
252:1 364:13 330:15 178:12 103:15 38:19 62:23
275:24 relevant 335:3 338:9 179:22 181:14,21 70:21 94:14
332:13 114:14 338:21,23 183:18 221:4 448:3 218:11
368:21 119:18 351:22,25 198:1 221:7 448:5 305:16
468:12 137:9 352:7,9 294:21 468:12 331:15
501:14 reliability 359:5 375:7 363:12 represent 337:23

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requirement 188:23 45:6 423:4 436:14 104:20

54:5 85:1 respectfully responsible retiree 31:24 438:17 105:19
305:6 180:16 44:25,25 370:5 453:16 108:15
requires 210:23 64:6 83:22 retirees 467:3 113:5,5,11
122:11 respecting 165:22 197:10 486:18 116:11
323:9 456:22 166:19 199:11,24 494:8 498:6 118:15
research respectively responsive 217:25 502:10 120:14
156:18 397:8 296:9 221:1 reviewed 123:21
158:23 respond 371:10,14 290:14 34:13 89:25 128:23
163:13 69:23 249:6 388:8 298:5,10,18 357:9 359:2 130:15
284:21 386:24 rest 222:24 299:7 369:9 reviewing 131:5
reserve 417:16 496:23 369:20 107:1 451:2 133:12,15
504:23 427:14,25 497:1,3 retrofit 305:8 revised 72:1 134:15
resist 132:15 504:22 restate retrofitted 75:3,12 136:17
resistance responded 473:13,14 332:9 revisions 141:8 142:3
289:1 241:17 result 48:25 retrofitting 360:17 143:7,8,25
339:14 267:14 122:6 151:5 305:3 revolutiona... 145:24
455:9 295:8 337:4 151:23 retrospective 379:14 146:2,6,18
resolution responding 197:15,15 294:25 rhetoric 146:19,21
69:17 74:23 132:3 199:21 return 67:17 266:25 150:6,23
397:12 259:4 213:23 69:15 77:12 Ribbon 151:8
resort 6:20 264:21 221:1,6 90:9 354:19 379:22 156:16
113:6 238:2 265:5 252:14,25 416:15 Richards 159:8,18
resource 270:16 253:8 return-to-p... 313:18 168:15
43:15 410:7 455:2 345:10 41:5 59:8 315:1 182:6 188:5
resources responds 374:16 66:14 71:1 Rick 208:25 203:17
62:12 273:6 418:4 411:5 149:13 216:17 204:19
213:11 426:16 458:23 202:12 221:22,25 206:9
300:6 response resulting 291:14 222:2 209:10,14
respect 29:5 121:4 19:6 174:15 returned rid 127:16 211:4
42:17 62:5 123:25 results 68:19 86:5 215:1 212:15
62:16 63:1 231:20 125:25 471:23 233:18 219:11
81:1 103:1 258:20 150:2 returning 236:1 222:1
124:14 263:8 197:24 91:23 94:18 243:16 225:12,24
161:5 164:6 276:14 202:5 94:23 246:7 234:10
240:15 296:11,12 204:11 revenues 277:21 244:7 246:1
268:5 299:14 213:14 284:18,20 287:9 248:14
278:15 338:2 340:5 344:3 review 51:2 316:25 251:13
289:3,4 351:16,17 resumed 53:5 61:10 340:18 252:5,9
293:25 351:20 194:6 61:13 62:19 476:5 477:5 253:22
314:5 317:3 352:22 retain 213:15 67:20 82:12 487:20 256:14,21
319:8 346:9 354:2 retained 83:2 84:20 right 18:13 260:18
366:16 356:19,22 94:25 213:6 96:14 102:4 23:9 24:20 261:7,8
369:5 364:11 470:15 111:17,22 28:23 29:14 262:18
376:23 366:14 retaining 119:6 120:7 32:20 37:9 263:10
385:14 368:12 467:17 149:8 155:3 41:14 44:22 264:9
386:22 388:3,5,7 Retaliation 212:6 46:2 49:9 268:13
394:24,24 395:11,14 311:8 223:25 51:5,16 272:24
401:20 398:20 retention 241:9 254:2 54:19 58:6 273:7,24
440:9 400:17 43:17 269:25 59:4 60:22 276:14
461:12 504:13 retest 501:20 275:19 68:12,16 278:14
471:4,6 responsibil... retire 422:24 303:16 69:20 70:23 282:14
473:5 19:12 32:5 retired 31:16 350:25 72:24 81:2 285:6
respected 45:10 289:16,21 358:16 87:9,9 88:9 289:16
348:2 293:25 290:23 367:15 92:18 97:12 291:16,24
respectful responsibil... 294:22 368:4 103:7 292:21,22

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294:17,22 503:16 roadblocks 185:6 319:16 408:1
305:2 308:3 right-hand 470:20,24 rule 33:23 320:13 449:24
308:17 52:10,23 472:20 34:6,13,20 324:13 456:5
309:19,23 67:17 90:7 Rob 380:2 36:22,25 326:13 500:23
310:4,7 147:6 303:9 Robert 111:9 37:7,10,12 337:8 344:7 run 47:18
313:24 307:8 robust 224:9 37:15,19 345:7,9 387:14
319:13,14 333:24 225:24 38:2,7,11 363:14 430:17
319:16,16 393:19 Rochester 38:12,24 375:20,24 444:4
319:21 451:11 361:14 39:16,16,20 377:4,7,15 467:17
320:20 rights 424:17 Rocky 492:1 40:1 43:1 378:14,25 476:14
326:11 504:24 role 42:16,23 128:16,23 379:1,1,4,5 running
328:24 rigid 287:24 43:2,8,12 129:3 130:3 379:20 35:19
339:17 304:7 305:7 123:20 132:18,22 380:14,18 129:19
340:1,4,8,9 306:25 124:17 133:24 381:22,24 345:15
342:4,15,20 338:19 125:23 134:9,19 383:24 353:4
347:19 rigidity 126:5,11 135:1,5,8 384:19 383:16
348:9 304:14 250:24 135:10 398:4,5 392:13
349:21 ring 149:21 257:11 137:18,21 400:18 474:15
351:24 479:1 267:17 226:5,10,12 401:3,9 runs 76:5
359:19 rink 332:9 271:18 226:23 403:2 411:4 302:24
367:7 368:2 rinks 306:6 461:12 227:25 413:2 429:7 Ryan 103:10
368:13,23 306:22 483:3 228:3,5 430:8 388:19,20
377:2 380:5 331:18 Ron 215:19 229:4 230:9 455:22 388:25
381:9 382:8 332:12 room 32:9 231:3,6,14 456:16 395:8 396:4
382:9,9,9 334:7 492:1 56:17 60:3 231:15,19 465:1,2,12 498:11
382:10,19 rises 123:16 60:19 61:9 231:23 484:3 Ryan's
382:25 risk 152:10 61:12 232:2,2,3,8 rules 28:20 395:20
385:7 390:9 153:1 164:7 103:18 232:10,10 36:17 37:5 Rypien
393:10,11 164:20 104:13,15 232:17,20 38:1,13 208:25
395:2 396:8 166:2 107:12 232:24 39:14 63:5 216:17
400:5,22 167:10 rooms 63:21 233:4,9,10 88:6 123:2
404:23 174:14 384:3,17 233:20 125:22 S
410:2,13,14 177:21 405:17 234:2,10,15 127:14 s 2:1 115:15
410:23 178:11 rooster 132:6 234:18 128:3,4,6 194:1,1,1
411:9,13,13 203:12 rooting 109:2 235:7,16 129:11,25 253:22
413:4,17 242:5,9 Rose 17:10 236:10,19 130:23 Sabres 361:7
418:10 357:23 roster 236:5 237:9,12,16 133:8,16 361:24
419:8 368:10,17 rotational 239:3,10,14 227:2 sad 291:22
423:24 369:9 183:11 239:17,18 228:13,16 safe 242:4,8
424:8 370:10,14 rough 432:24 239:22 233:6,13 246:10
425:11 370:14,15 433:7 244:18 234:12 288:8 304:3
426:10,15 371:1 roughly 245:13 244:25 435:23
426:19 risks 19:23 37:18 261:1 278:4 245:4,7 440:17
427:21 176:8 route 259:1 284:2,3 282:20 452:18
429:8,9,10 318:11 RPR 1:24 307:11,18 284:24 safer 230:18
431:16 501:3 RTP 69:6 70:7 308:23 285:18,25 243:9,24
433:1 441:2 Ritz 6:19 rubber 309:10,11 286:20 244:4 345:5
441:16 238:1 287:10,11 309:13 290:3 292:7 380:11
444:5,6 rivalry 249:8 Ruben 144:21 310:17,18 313:9 384:20
447:8,19 490:19 180:25 310:19,22 318:13,17 safety 45:1
450:9 Rizos 182:20 426:7 311:3 312:9 344:12 61:12,14
459:21 469:13 467:17 312:12 345:5,13,20 62:8,10
460:14 472:6,7,8 470:15 314:22 354:21 83:16 87:25
470:22 RMR 1:24 502:18 315:3,23 362:25 88:2,6
473:20 road 164:8 rugby 179:24 317:15,20 363:5 105:22

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131:15 280:21,23 329:12 241:17 482:1 358:1
135:17 281:23 337:4 345:4 248:16 483:16,17 scientifically
137:10,15 savory 352:20 255:9 258:3 483:17,25 191:19
137:17,18 245:11 362:19 258:24 483:25 scored 385:6
138:7 140:6 saw 51:8 387:12 260:17 490:10,13 scouts 405:21
245:16 68:2 70:3 398:1 263:12 490:14 scratch 344:8
278:15 181:24 402:12 264:13 493:10 scratched
286:21 232:12 403:19 267:19 494:3 495:8 119:16
287:7 292:2 323:7 343:8 409:3 273:6 496:11 screen 329:4
294:1 314:4 343:12 418:12 274:11 502:4 485:16
327:6,10,16 349:3 359:4 426:7 427:7 280:17 503:10 script 357:13
328:9 340:2 360:5 373:6 428:9 430:4 281:21 scale 160:3 scripts
342:24 378:9 434:7 304:22 scalpel 358:16
354:20 385:10 435:24 305:2 344:15,16 seamless
365:19,21 413:18 436:2 448:8 319:22 344:20 303:22,25
378:5 418:25 454:21 322:1 scared 258:5 304:6 305:1
384:22 439:17 459:22 327:10,17 SCAT2 69:18 305:7,14
439:25 448:13 476:5 477:5 329:18,24 SCAT3 356:3 306:6,15
440:7,23 451:3 484:20 331:9,12 scheme 307:6 331:2
441:1 463:10 486:2 333:16 100:3 332:8 331:15,19
456:12 480:14 490:16,17 334:2 385:16 331:24
457:4 499:8 494:24 341:21 Schneider 334:3,7,9
460:10 saying 42:10 says 52:14,15 342:4 215:11 334:10,14
sample 42:11 59:3 52:24 53:11 352:14 386:8 334:17,18
169:10,10 73:1 83:10 60:18 67:17 353:15 school 16:21 335:11
178:23 84:12 85:7 68:17 69:15 362:24 17:3 109:9 336:9,18
210:18 112:19 70:7 71:24 374:14 109:11 337:24
218:6,19,24 125:17 75:8,10 376:2,11 250:4 338:6
219:3 128:11 78:17 87:11 377:3 345:17,18 339:12,17
222:24 134:7 89:2 90:24 386:23 382:24 search 35:9
223:16 151:22 96:17 390:2 389:4,10,22 35:11
sanctioned 156:17 100:18,25 392:24 389:22 season 68:12
112:21 158:7,13 101:24 393:22 435:22 68:18,18
sanctions 162:3 163:5 103:14 394:6 395:8 schtick 142:5 142:25
55:17,24,24 163:25 105:1 395:17 142:5 202:5
70:19 94:9 170:19 108:19 396:5,6 science 58:16 203:12
sat 411:18 179:6,14,15 115:12 398:6 85:15 316:17
satisfaction 233:1,7 116:11 408:21 163:11 323:25
54:25 240:9 117:9,12 413:15,21 164:6 332:13
398:19 250:13 126:2 143:5 414:12 177:16,23 seasonally
satisfied 252:23 146:10 416:19 178:9,14 48:5
53:13 259:8 263:4 147:6,9 417:16,20 191:9,17 second 20:18
366:14 264:21 148:25 418:1,2 202:24 21:16 50:21
388:2 265:15,22 154:17 420:23 203:4,8 68:15 82:9
satisfy 266:19,20 165:25 426:13 223:8,16 87:6 91:8
312:19 266:23 186:6 189:5 427:9 428:1 291:12 91:15,21,22
Savard 268:10 189:10 436:22 330:11 92:13 98:7
313:20 271:10 191:9 437:10 394:12,12 115:17
410:6 280:17,19 203:20 446:6 scientific 148:5 151:6
save 21:2 281:25 204:18 451:13,15 152:25 186:24
279:23,23 282:2 298:4 212:22 451:17 163:14,18 195:21,23
saved 267:23 298:10 220:9 452:11,13 167:13 195:23
412:14 312:15 223:21 454:18 185:5 200:11
saving 314:6 224:5 470:3,19,24 189:19 203:23,24
267:21 318:18 238:16 471:23 200:3,7 204:9,13

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612.338.3376

2015-07-31 - (Bettman, Gary Bettman) Final REDACTED - Condensed

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Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order - Deposition of Gary Bettman - 7/31/2015

In Re: National Hockey League Players' Concussion Injury Litigation

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