Ian "Marvin" Graye's Reviews > In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower
In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower
by
by
Ian "Marvin" Graye's review
bookshelves: frogs, proust, read-2013, reviews, reviews-5-stars
Mar 11, 2013
bookshelves: frogs, proust, read-2013, reviews, reviews-5-stars
A Note about the Translation
I wanted to support the translation of this volume by James Grieve, a lecturer at my alma mater, Australian National University, when I was there in the 70’s.
I’m pretty sure he taught two of my close friends. While I can’t recall meeting him, I did socialise with one of his colleagues, Robert Dessaix, who subsequently became a talented writer.
It was a very capable French Department. However, in the 90’s, it was decimated by budget cuts and Grieve was made "redundant". He subsequently undertook a full teaching load for no remuneration, declining an opportunity to move to Sydney, so he could continue to cycle everywhere around Canberra and continue his commitment to the cause of French language and literature. ANU hasn’t even updated his CV to give him credit for this translation (which for what it’s worth was the favourite of Alain de Botton).
I approached Grieve’s translation a little sceptically at first. I still have a few quibbles (he translated "petite bande" as a "little gang" of girls, which you might do for punks, but I wonder about middle class girls, even if they were perceived as unruly). However, I quickly stopped paying attention to the translation and focussed on the pleasures of the text.
A Note about the Title
The novel continues and extends Proust’s literary analysis of love, focussing mainly on the narrator’s journey through late adolescence and his early sexual experiences (at ages 15 to 20, unless I’m mistaken).
The title of the Grieve translation is "In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower", in contrast to the Kilmartin translation "Within a Budding Grove".
Taken separately, it’s difficult to determine the intended meaning of each alternative title.
To what extent is sexuality implicit in the title?
This question reminded me of the title of Chapter 28 of Thomas Hardy’s "Far from the Madding Crowd", a highly sexually-charged chapter that goes by the name "The Hollow Amid the Ferns".
"Within a Budding Grove" might simply refer to a forest of trees, which bud in winter in preparation for spring, a fairly innocuous translation, if still a metaphor.
There is also an English song which might have been known to the translators:
"Yet soon the lovely days of Spring
Will leaf the budding grove."
The budding could also be symbolic of the adolescent experience and puberty of both genders, since females are not mentioned in this version.
On the other hand, given the literal meaning of the French title, the "budding grove" might be a more pointed reference to female puberty, a "rosebud" being slang for female genitalia (see also its significance in "Citizen Kane").
Grieve’s translation is more literal. The young women are in flower (or in bloom), a metaphor for puberty. Perhaps the shadow refers to the darkness of the girls’ transition to adulthood or the fact that they tower metaphorically over the narrator and cast a shadow over his life and social and sexual experiences?
What, There’s More?
After the tour de force that was the first volume, it still amazes me that Proust was able to continue writing about love with such insight, sophistication and wit (and there are more volumes to come).
He keeps finding new things to say, all of which seem to be definitive in their analysis.
Proust possessed amazing powers of observation. In the first volume they were directed partly at his own childhood relationship with his mother, but mainly at the relationship of Charles Swann and Odette de Crecey.
The second volume continues the scrutiny of Swann and the now Madame Swann, but the narrator moves to centre stage.
He is an older and greater participant in the action. However, even this statement has to be qualified in the case of Proust.
The great bulk of the text is what occurs in the narrator’s mind, as he responds to events and stimuli around him. He is still an acute observer. He doesn’t just look and think, he reviews, he criticizes, he critiques, as if every aspect of life is a literary or aesthetic experience.
At times, it approaches the lyrical and the musical, as if Proust were composing a symphony or an opera assembled from his responses and interactions.
The sensation of touch is not enough. He must cerebrally process the sensation and convert it into art. An animal can touch and feel, only a human can create Art. Proust worked at the pinnacle of what a human can fashion from their life experience.
Catherine Deneuve as Madame Odette Swann in the film of "Time Regained"
At Madame Swann’s
It quickly becomes apparent that Odette de Crecey from Volume 1 has married Charles Swann and had a daughter Gilberte, who is a similar age to the unnamed Marcel and is aged from 15 to 18 during the first section of the volume.
Odette divided opinion in volume 1, because she was a high class courtesan. Her marriage to Swann surprised Paris’ polite society and there are still many who scorn her. However, despite all expectations, it seems that their marriage has been a success, at least to the extent that it has been mutually advantageous, which after all is possibly the least we can expect of any marriage.
There are unresolved implications of dual infidelity, but they are back story and not the focus of this volume.
Swann has lifted Odette into High Society, and she is grateful. Odette has given Swann a daughter, who loves him, despite being equally strong-willed, but just as importantly Odette confers on Swann a "purely private satisfaction" that cements their relationship.
The status of the Swann family, despite Swann’s Jewish background, allows Odette to establish a successful literary salon, but also to redesign herself.
Her complexion is dark. In volume 1, her beauty was always played down. Now, "she seemed to have grown so many years younger, she had filled out, enjoyed better health, looked calmer, cooler, more relaxed". Her new pattern was "full of majesty and charm". She wore "this immutable model of eternal youth". At the same time, whatever she wore:
"...encompassed her like the delicate and etherealized epitome of a civilization."
These qualities are, apparently, attractive in a woman.
While Marcel purports to be in love with Gilberte, he is at least partly in love with Odette as well. Alternatively, he actually wants to be Odette, if only so that he can partner Swann, whom he admires. [This is not a simple relationship.]
Picasso’s "Les Demoiselles d'Avignon"
See Jim Everett's allusion to this painting here on Proust Reader
At Balbec
Two years later, presumably when Marcel is about 18 to 20, his health requires him to spend a few seasons at the beach resort town of Balbec.
He uses this time to forget his love for Gilberte. Instead, his attention is drawn to a "petite bande" of "jeunes filles en fleurs".
This provides the set up for much contemplation on the subject matter of volume 1, memory and the nature of love, as well as the complications introduced by adolescent sexuality.
It’s these issues I’d like to focus on for the rest of this review. I hope you’ll forgive me if I resort to the abstract or the impersonal, so as not necessarily to reveal the object of Marcel’s affection and spoil your reading of the novel.
A Critique of Pure Devotion
In volume 1, we learn much about the nature of love from the point of view of Swann, as narrated by Marcel. Presumably, the narrative was dictated at a later phase of his life. Here, we see him undergoing his own adolescent experiences, even if they were narrated subsequently.
We learn what the older Marcel knows, only not in chronological order. Proust adheres to a subjective order of revelation, which in a way reflects the fact that memory itself is not chronological. It prioritises itself according to laws that we might never know or understand.
From now on, I'd like to allow Proust's words to speak for themselves as much as possible.
The Subjectivity of Love
The Object of Our Affection is what we make of them:
"Love creates a supplementary person who is quite different from the one who bears our beloved’s name in the outside world and is mostly formed from elements within ourselves."
"Love having become so immense, we never reflect on how small a part the woman herself plays in it."
You love me, because I made you love me:
"This real Albertine was little more than an outline: everything else that had been added to her was of my own making, for our own contribution to our love – even if judged solely from the point of view of quantity – is greater than that of the person we love."
You’ll be my mirror:
"When we are in love, our love is too vast to be wholly contained within ourselves; it radiates outward, reaches the resistant surface of the loved one, which reflects it back to its starting point; and this return of our own tenderness is what we see as the other’s feelings, working their new, enhanced charm on us, because we do not recognise them as having originating in ourselves.”
The Conjunction of Love and Pain
"Whatever I longed for would be mine only at the end of a painful pursuit...this supreme goal could be achieved only on condition that I sacrifice to it the pleasure I had hoped to find in it."
The Quest for Beauty as a Source of Love and Life
"I was at one of those times of youth when the idle heart, unoccupied by love for a particular person, lies in wait for Beauty, seeking it everywhere, as the man in love sees and desires in all things the woman he cherishes."
"Looking at her, I was filled with that renewed longing for life which any fresh glimpse of beauty and happiness can bring."
The Desire to Please, to Possess and to Penetrate
In order to gain love, you must make the acquaintance of the one you desire and then seek their approval:
"I was not yet old enough, and had remained too sensitive, to have given up the wish to please others and to possess them."
First, you have to enter their field of vision and engage them in conversation:
"It was not only her body I was after, it was the person living inside it, with whom there can be only one mode of touching, which is to attract her attention, and one mode of penetration, which is to put an idea into her mind."
Sometimes, a kiss is not enough. You must incite admiration, desire and memory:
"Just as it would not have been enough for me, in kissing her, to take pleasure from her lips without giving her any in return, so I wished that the idea of me, in entering her, in becoming part of her, might attract not only her attention, but her admiration, her desire, and might force it to keep a memory of me against the day when I might be able to benefit from it."
The Relevance of Physical Intimacy
"I had thought the love I felt for Albertine did not depend on any hope of physical intimacy."
The Unattainability of the Love Object
"Love, mobile and pre-existing, focuses on the image of a certain woman simply because she will be almost certainly unattainable."
Sometimes, it’s not impossible, just difficult:
"I was inclined to magnify the simplest of pleasures because of the obstacles that lay between me and the possibility of enjoying them."
The Attainability of the Love Object
The more easily attainable the love, the less the pleasure:
"The main reason for the shrinking of the pleasure to which I had been so looking forward was the knowledge that nothing could now prevent me from enjoying it."
The Possession of the Love Object
"Our love too seems to have vanished at the very moment when we come into possession of a prize the value of which we have never really thought about."
The Postponement of Gratification
"It is seldom that a joy is promptly paired with the desire that longed for it."
The more you dally, the greater the dalliance:
"What monotony and boredom color the lives of those who drive directly…without ever daring to dally along the way with what they desire!"
But don’t dally too long:
"It is not certain that the happiness that comes too late, at a time when one can no longer enjoy it, when one is no longer in love, is exactly the same happiness for which we once pined in vain. There is only one person – our former self – who could decide the issue; and that self is no longer with us."
Be wary of sabotage and self-denial:
"The only thing I cared for, my relationship with Gilberte, was the very thing I was trying to sabotage, through my prolonging of our separation, through my gradual fostering not of her indifference toward me, but – which would come to the same thing in the end – of mine toward her. My unremitting effort was directed to bringing about the slow, agonizing suicide of the self that loved Gilberte."
Self-denial should not be conditional, lest the conditions not be met:
"...unless she made an unambiguous request for us to clarify our relationship, accompanied by a full declaration of her love for me, both of which I knew were impossible..."
The Satisfaction of One Desire Creates Another
"To possess a little more of her would only increase our need for the part of her that we do not possess; and in any case, within our part, since our needs arise out of our satisfactions, something of her would still lie forever beyond our grasp."
The Coincidence of Desire and Reality
"When reality coincides at last with something we have longed for, fitting perfectly with our dreams, it can cover them up entirely and become indistinguishable from them, as two symmetrical figures placed against one another seem to become one; whereas, so as to give our joy its full intensity of meaning, we would actually prefer every detail of our desires, even at the instant of fulfillment, to retain the presence of still being immaterial, so as to be more certain that this really is what we desired."
The Source of Our Memory
"The things that are best at reminding us of a person are those which, because they were insignificant, we have forgotten, and which have therefore lost none of their power. Which is why the greater part of our memory exists outside us, in a dampish breeze, in the musty air of a bedroom or the smell of autumn’s first fires, things through which we can retrieve any part of us that the reasoning mind, having no use for it, disdained, the last vestige of the past, the best of it, the part which, after all our tears seem to have dried, can make us weep again."
The Habits of Love
"This recurrence of pain and the renewal of my love for Gilberte did not last longer than they would have in a dream of her, for the very reason that my life at Balbec was free of the habits that in usual circumstances would have helped it to prevail. It was because of Habit that I had become more and more indifferent to Gilberte."
The Mutability of Love
"If we consciously or unconsciously outgrow those associations, our love, as though it was a spontaneous growth, a thing of our own making, revives and offers itself to another woman."
"There was in me a residue of old dreams of love, dating from my childhood, full of all the tenderness my heart was capable of, all the love it had ever felt, and which was now indistinguishable from it, which could be suddenly brought back to me by someone as different as possible from me."
"This liking for new places and people is of course worked into our forgetting of older ones."
The Indivisibility of Love
"My feeling was no longer the simple attraction of the first days: it was an incipient, tentative love for each or any of them, every single one of them being a natural substitute for any of the others."
The Resemblance of Our Love Objects
"There is a degree of resemblance between the women we love at different times; and this resemblance, though it devolves, derives from the unchanging nature of our own temperament, which is what selects them, by ruling out all those who are not likely to be both opposite and complementary to us, who cannot be relied on, that is, to gratify our sensuality and wound our heart. Such women are a product of our temperament, an inverted image or projection, a negative of our sensitivity."
You Are Too Like Me for Me To Love
"It was impossible for any love of mine for Andree to be true: she was too intellectual, too highly-strung, too prone to ailment, too much like myself. Though Albertine now seemed empty, Andree was full of something with which I was overfamiliar."
The Shadow
"At those moments in my life when I was not in love but wished I was, the ideal of physical beauty I carried about with me...was partnered by the emotional shadow, ever ready to be brought to real life, of the woman who was going to fall in love with me and step straight into the part already written for her...in the comedy of fondness and passion that had been awaiting her since my childhood...as long as she had a pleasant disposition and some of the physical characteristics required by the role."
Love or Enjoyment
"I sensed that those who know love and those who enjoy life are not the same people."
Emmanuelle Béart as Gilberte in the film of “Time Regained”
At the Zoo
[After and in the Words of Proust]
Madame Swann's
Easy step
Gave her coat
A loose and
Lazy sway.
Noticing,
I conferred
A shy glance,
Subtle but
Admiring,
Upon which,
Detected,
I was then
Rewarded
With a wink
Of her eye
And a slow
Flirtatious
Smile. Oh what
Ecstasy.
Ill Bergotten
[After and in the Words of Proust]
Matter-of-fact
And overrich,
The familiar,
Did he eschew.
Not content to
Toe the line, hence
Approached from some
Petty angle,
His ideas
Always sounded
Unbeauteous,
Wearisome and
Convoluted:
"A Cartesian
Devil, vainly
Endeavouring
To endure
Eternally
In equipoise."
Smartness for the
Sake of smartness,
Thus, were his words
Twisted around.
Ephemeral,
But not profound.
Avenue du Bois-de-Boulogne
[After and in the Words of Proust]
Madame Swann sauntered along the
Avenue du Bois-de-Boulogne,
Mellow, gentle, smiling and stately,
At the peak of wealth and beauty,
Delectable in the blooming
Summer season of her lifetime,
From which glorious point she watched
Worlds turn beneath her measured tread,
Until Prince de Sagan spied her.
His greeting evoked chivalry,
Polite and allegorical,
A noble homage to Woman,
Since recalled by Proust after noon
Any fine day in May, a glimpse
Of Madame Swann chatting with him
In the glow of wisteria.
Satisfied, at peace, in love, his
Spirit freed from hysteria.
Une Petite Bande
[After and in the Words of Proust]
Look there, far away
On the esplanade,
Making a strange mass
Of moving colours,
Five or six young girls
All as different
In their appearance
And their ways from the
Other bathers as
The odd gaggle of
Seagulls strutting on
The beach, wings flapping.
I wanted to support the translation of this volume by James Grieve, a lecturer at my alma mater, Australian National University, when I was there in the 70’s.
I’m pretty sure he taught two of my close friends. While I can’t recall meeting him, I did socialise with one of his colleagues, Robert Dessaix, who subsequently became a talented writer.
It was a very capable French Department. However, in the 90’s, it was decimated by budget cuts and Grieve was made "redundant". He subsequently undertook a full teaching load for no remuneration, declining an opportunity to move to Sydney, so he could continue to cycle everywhere around Canberra and continue his commitment to the cause of French language and literature. ANU hasn’t even updated his CV to give him credit for this translation (which for what it’s worth was the favourite of Alain de Botton).
I approached Grieve’s translation a little sceptically at first. I still have a few quibbles (he translated "petite bande" as a "little gang" of girls, which you might do for punks, but I wonder about middle class girls, even if they were perceived as unruly). However, I quickly stopped paying attention to the translation and focussed on the pleasures of the text.
A Note about the Title
The novel continues and extends Proust’s literary analysis of love, focussing mainly on the narrator’s journey through late adolescence and his early sexual experiences (at ages 15 to 20, unless I’m mistaken).
The title of the Grieve translation is "In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower", in contrast to the Kilmartin translation "Within a Budding Grove".
Taken separately, it’s difficult to determine the intended meaning of each alternative title.
To what extent is sexuality implicit in the title?
This question reminded me of the title of Chapter 28 of Thomas Hardy’s "Far from the Madding Crowd", a highly sexually-charged chapter that goes by the name "The Hollow Amid the Ferns".
"Within a Budding Grove" might simply refer to a forest of trees, which bud in winter in preparation for spring, a fairly innocuous translation, if still a metaphor.
There is also an English song which might have been known to the translators:
"Yet soon the lovely days of Spring
Will leaf the budding grove."
The budding could also be symbolic of the adolescent experience and puberty of both genders, since females are not mentioned in this version.
On the other hand, given the literal meaning of the French title, the "budding grove" might be a more pointed reference to female puberty, a "rosebud" being slang for female genitalia (see also its significance in "Citizen Kane").
Grieve’s translation is more literal. The young women are in flower (or in bloom), a metaphor for puberty. Perhaps the shadow refers to the darkness of the girls’ transition to adulthood or the fact that they tower metaphorically over the narrator and cast a shadow over his life and social and sexual experiences?
What, There’s More?
After the tour de force that was the first volume, it still amazes me that Proust was able to continue writing about love with such insight, sophistication and wit (and there are more volumes to come).
He keeps finding new things to say, all of which seem to be definitive in their analysis.
Proust possessed amazing powers of observation. In the first volume they were directed partly at his own childhood relationship with his mother, but mainly at the relationship of Charles Swann and Odette de Crecey.
The second volume continues the scrutiny of Swann and the now Madame Swann, but the narrator moves to centre stage.
He is an older and greater participant in the action. However, even this statement has to be qualified in the case of Proust.
The great bulk of the text is what occurs in the narrator’s mind, as he responds to events and stimuli around him. He is still an acute observer. He doesn’t just look and think, he reviews, he criticizes, he critiques, as if every aspect of life is a literary or aesthetic experience.
At times, it approaches the lyrical and the musical, as if Proust were composing a symphony or an opera assembled from his responses and interactions.
The sensation of touch is not enough. He must cerebrally process the sensation and convert it into art. An animal can touch and feel, only a human can create Art. Proust worked at the pinnacle of what a human can fashion from their life experience.
Catherine Deneuve as Madame Odette Swann in the film of "Time Regained"
At Madame Swann’s
It quickly becomes apparent that Odette de Crecey from Volume 1 has married Charles Swann and had a daughter Gilberte, who is a similar age to the unnamed Marcel and is aged from 15 to 18 during the first section of the volume.
Odette divided opinion in volume 1, because she was a high class courtesan. Her marriage to Swann surprised Paris’ polite society and there are still many who scorn her. However, despite all expectations, it seems that their marriage has been a success, at least to the extent that it has been mutually advantageous, which after all is possibly the least we can expect of any marriage.
There are unresolved implications of dual infidelity, but they are back story and not the focus of this volume.
Swann has lifted Odette into High Society, and she is grateful. Odette has given Swann a daughter, who loves him, despite being equally strong-willed, but just as importantly Odette confers on Swann a "purely private satisfaction" that cements their relationship.
The status of the Swann family, despite Swann’s Jewish background, allows Odette to establish a successful literary salon, but also to redesign herself.
Her complexion is dark. In volume 1, her beauty was always played down. Now, "she seemed to have grown so many years younger, she had filled out, enjoyed better health, looked calmer, cooler, more relaxed". Her new pattern was "full of majesty and charm". She wore "this immutable model of eternal youth". At the same time, whatever she wore:
"...encompassed her like the delicate and etherealized epitome of a civilization."
These qualities are, apparently, attractive in a woman.
While Marcel purports to be in love with Gilberte, he is at least partly in love with Odette as well. Alternatively, he actually wants to be Odette, if only so that he can partner Swann, whom he admires. [This is not a simple relationship.]
Picasso’s "Les Demoiselles d'Avignon"
See Jim Everett's allusion to this painting here on Proust Reader
At Balbec
Two years later, presumably when Marcel is about 18 to 20, his health requires him to spend a few seasons at the beach resort town of Balbec.
He uses this time to forget his love for Gilberte. Instead, his attention is drawn to a "petite bande" of "jeunes filles en fleurs".
This provides the set up for much contemplation on the subject matter of volume 1, memory and the nature of love, as well as the complications introduced by adolescent sexuality.
It’s these issues I’d like to focus on for the rest of this review. I hope you’ll forgive me if I resort to the abstract or the impersonal, so as not necessarily to reveal the object of Marcel’s affection and spoil your reading of the novel.
A Critique of Pure Devotion
In volume 1, we learn much about the nature of love from the point of view of Swann, as narrated by Marcel. Presumably, the narrative was dictated at a later phase of his life. Here, we see him undergoing his own adolescent experiences, even if they were narrated subsequently.
We learn what the older Marcel knows, only not in chronological order. Proust adheres to a subjective order of revelation, which in a way reflects the fact that memory itself is not chronological. It prioritises itself according to laws that we might never know or understand.
From now on, I'd like to allow Proust's words to speak for themselves as much as possible.
The Subjectivity of Love
The Object of Our Affection is what we make of them:
"Love creates a supplementary person who is quite different from the one who bears our beloved’s name in the outside world and is mostly formed from elements within ourselves."
"Love having become so immense, we never reflect on how small a part the woman herself plays in it."
You love me, because I made you love me:
"This real Albertine was little more than an outline: everything else that had been added to her was of my own making, for our own contribution to our love – even if judged solely from the point of view of quantity – is greater than that of the person we love."
You’ll be my mirror:
"When we are in love, our love is too vast to be wholly contained within ourselves; it radiates outward, reaches the resistant surface of the loved one, which reflects it back to its starting point; and this return of our own tenderness is what we see as the other’s feelings, working their new, enhanced charm on us, because we do not recognise them as having originating in ourselves.”
The Conjunction of Love and Pain
"Whatever I longed for would be mine only at the end of a painful pursuit...this supreme goal could be achieved only on condition that I sacrifice to it the pleasure I had hoped to find in it."
The Quest for Beauty as a Source of Love and Life
"I was at one of those times of youth when the idle heart, unoccupied by love for a particular person, lies in wait for Beauty, seeking it everywhere, as the man in love sees and desires in all things the woman he cherishes."
"Looking at her, I was filled with that renewed longing for life which any fresh glimpse of beauty and happiness can bring."
The Desire to Please, to Possess and to Penetrate
In order to gain love, you must make the acquaintance of the one you desire and then seek their approval:
"I was not yet old enough, and had remained too sensitive, to have given up the wish to please others and to possess them."
First, you have to enter their field of vision and engage them in conversation:
"It was not only her body I was after, it was the person living inside it, with whom there can be only one mode of touching, which is to attract her attention, and one mode of penetration, which is to put an idea into her mind."
Sometimes, a kiss is not enough. You must incite admiration, desire and memory:
"Just as it would not have been enough for me, in kissing her, to take pleasure from her lips without giving her any in return, so I wished that the idea of me, in entering her, in becoming part of her, might attract not only her attention, but her admiration, her desire, and might force it to keep a memory of me against the day when I might be able to benefit from it."
The Relevance of Physical Intimacy
"I had thought the love I felt for Albertine did not depend on any hope of physical intimacy."
The Unattainability of the Love Object
"Love, mobile and pre-existing, focuses on the image of a certain woman simply because she will be almost certainly unattainable."
Sometimes, it’s not impossible, just difficult:
"I was inclined to magnify the simplest of pleasures because of the obstacles that lay between me and the possibility of enjoying them."
The Attainability of the Love Object
The more easily attainable the love, the less the pleasure:
"The main reason for the shrinking of the pleasure to which I had been so looking forward was the knowledge that nothing could now prevent me from enjoying it."
The Possession of the Love Object
"Our love too seems to have vanished at the very moment when we come into possession of a prize the value of which we have never really thought about."
The Postponement of Gratification
"It is seldom that a joy is promptly paired with the desire that longed for it."
The more you dally, the greater the dalliance:
"What monotony and boredom color the lives of those who drive directly…without ever daring to dally along the way with what they desire!"
But don’t dally too long:
"It is not certain that the happiness that comes too late, at a time when one can no longer enjoy it, when one is no longer in love, is exactly the same happiness for which we once pined in vain. There is only one person – our former self – who could decide the issue; and that self is no longer with us."
Be wary of sabotage and self-denial:
"The only thing I cared for, my relationship with Gilberte, was the very thing I was trying to sabotage, through my prolonging of our separation, through my gradual fostering not of her indifference toward me, but – which would come to the same thing in the end – of mine toward her. My unremitting effort was directed to bringing about the slow, agonizing suicide of the self that loved Gilberte."
Self-denial should not be conditional, lest the conditions not be met:
"...unless she made an unambiguous request for us to clarify our relationship, accompanied by a full declaration of her love for me, both of which I knew were impossible..."
The Satisfaction of One Desire Creates Another
"To possess a little more of her would only increase our need for the part of her that we do not possess; and in any case, within our part, since our needs arise out of our satisfactions, something of her would still lie forever beyond our grasp."
The Coincidence of Desire and Reality
"When reality coincides at last with something we have longed for, fitting perfectly with our dreams, it can cover them up entirely and become indistinguishable from them, as two symmetrical figures placed against one another seem to become one; whereas, so as to give our joy its full intensity of meaning, we would actually prefer every detail of our desires, even at the instant of fulfillment, to retain the presence of still being immaterial, so as to be more certain that this really is what we desired."
The Source of Our Memory
"The things that are best at reminding us of a person are those which, because they were insignificant, we have forgotten, and which have therefore lost none of their power. Which is why the greater part of our memory exists outside us, in a dampish breeze, in the musty air of a bedroom or the smell of autumn’s first fires, things through which we can retrieve any part of us that the reasoning mind, having no use for it, disdained, the last vestige of the past, the best of it, the part which, after all our tears seem to have dried, can make us weep again."
The Habits of Love
"This recurrence of pain and the renewal of my love for Gilberte did not last longer than they would have in a dream of her, for the very reason that my life at Balbec was free of the habits that in usual circumstances would have helped it to prevail. It was because of Habit that I had become more and more indifferent to Gilberte."
The Mutability of Love
"If we consciously or unconsciously outgrow those associations, our love, as though it was a spontaneous growth, a thing of our own making, revives and offers itself to another woman."
"There was in me a residue of old dreams of love, dating from my childhood, full of all the tenderness my heart was capable of, all the love it had ever felt, and which was now indistinguishable from it, which could be suddenly brought back to me by someone as different as possible from me."
"This liking for new places and people is of course worked into our forgetting of older ones."
The Indivisibility of Love
"My feeling was no longer the simple attraction of the first days: it was an incipient, tentative love for each or any of them, every single one of them being a natural substitute for any of the others."
The Resemblance of Our Love Objects
"There is a degree of resemblance between the women we love at different times; and this resemblance, though it devolves, derives from the unchanging nature of our own temperament, which is what selects them, by ruling out all those who are not likely to be both opposite and complementary to us, who cannot be relied on, that is, to gratify our sensuality and wound our heart. Such women are a product of our temperament, an inverted image or projection, a negative of our sensitivity."
You Are Too Like Me for Me To Love
"It was impossible for any love of mine for Andree to be true: she was too intellectual, too highly-strung, too prone to ailment, too much like myself. Though Albertine now seemed empty, Andree was full of something with which I was overfamiliar."
The Shadow
"At those moments in my life when I was not in love but wished I was, the ideal of physical beauty I carried about with me...was partnered by the emotional shadow, ever ready to be brought to real life, of the woman who was going to fall in love with me and step straight into the part already written for her...in the comedy of fondness and passion that had been awaiting her since my childhood...as long as she had a pleasant disposition and some of the physical characteristics required by the role."
Love or Enjoyment
"I sensed that those who know love and those who enjoy life are not the same people."
Emmanuelle Béart as Gilberte in the film of “Time Regained”
At the Zoo
[After and in the Words of Proust]
Madame Swann's
Easy step
Gave her coat
A loose and
Lazy sway.
Noticing,
I conferred
A shy glance,
Subtle but
Admiring,
Upon which,
Detected,
I was then
Rewarded
With a wink
Of her eye
And a slow
Flirtatious
Smile. Oh what
Ecstasy.
Ill Bergotten
[After and in the Words of Proust]
Matter-of-fact
And overrich,
The familiar,
Did he eschew.
Not content to
Toe the line, hence
Approached from some
Petty angle,
His ideas
Always sounded
Unbeauteous,
Wearisome and
Convoluted:
"A Cartesian
Devil, vainly
Endeavouring
To endure
Eternally
In equipoise."
Smartness for the
Sake of smartness,
Thus, were his words
Twisted around.
Ephemeral,
But not profound.
Avenue du Bois-de-Boulogne
[After and in the Words of Proust]
Madame Swann sauntered along the
Avenue du Bois-de-Boulogne,
Mellow, gentle, smiling and stately,
At the peak of wealth and beauty,
Delectable in the blooming
Summer season of her lifetime,
From which glorious point she watched
Worlds turn beneath her measured tread,
Until Prince de Sagan spied her.
His greeting evoked chivalry,
Polite and allegorical,
A noble homage to Woman,
Since recalled by Proust after noon
Any fine day in May, a glimpse
Of Madame Swann chatting with him
In the glow of wisteria.
Satisfied, at peace, in love, his
Spirit freed from hysteria.
Une Petite Bande
[After and in the Words of Proust]
Look there, far away
On the esplanade,
Making a strange mass
Of moving colours,
Five or six young girls
All as different
In their appearance
And their ways from the
Other bathers as
The odd gaggle of
Seagulls strutting on
The beach, wings flapping.
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Reading Progress
March 11, 2013
– Shelved
March 11, 2013
– Shelved as:
frogs
March 11, 2013
– Shelved as:
proust
April 22, 2013
–
Started Reading
May 1, 2013
–
Finished Reading
May 2, 2013
– Shelved as:
read-2013
May 2, 2013
– Shelved as:
reviews
May 2, 2013
– Shelved as:
reviews-5-stars
Comments Showing 1-50 of 87 (87 new)
I'm not very far advanced, but there have been some nice comments about art so far: "works glowing through and through with the smile of Art", a Carpaccio in Venice that was a masterpiece (Proust wouldn't have been aware of the meat dish of this name, because it only took Carpaccio's name after an exhibition of his works in Venice in 1950...I know, because I just looked it up!).
Très bien, Ian (as my French prof used to say, only she didn't call me Ian). I like the first piece, especially. A little gem that made me smile.
Thanks, all. I'm thinking of doing one more poem from the first section, about Odette going for a walk, surrounded by all of her male guests. Proust's description is amazing.
ETA: Done, see "Avenue du Bois-de-Boulogne".
ETA: Done, see "Avenue du Bois-de-Boulogne".
Brian wrote: "This is glorious, Ian - well done"
Thanks, Brian, they probably make more sense to you, because you have read the novel. I'll come back to your review when I've written mine. I've had a quick look and I might have to ask you about the secrets of Venice.
Our family just did a fortnight in each of Paris and London, and as a family that's starting to push the limit a bit, either in terms of duration in each city or collectively across a number of cities. We're not into 13 cities in 14 days.
Thanks, Brian, they probably make more sense to you, because you have read the novel. I'll come back to your review when I've written mine. I've had a quick look and I might have to ask you about the secrets of Venice.
Our family just did a fortnight in each of Paris and London, and as a family that's starting to push the limit a bit, either in terms of duration in each city or collectively across a number of cities. We're not into 13 cities in 14 days.
I've recently acquired In Search of Lost Time, I can't wait to read it. You're review makes me want to pull it out now...
Janine, Unfortunately, Proust is something you either love or hate. I keep on telling myself that I will overcome my fear of reading three volumes of 1.5 million words. I have had the volumes for years and I keep on telling myself, I'm ready for this and I try and it just means nothing to me. Just words but then obviously I'm a very illiterate individual...
And I just love, on the whole, all French literature...
Shades of the king has no clothes...
And I just love, on the whole, all French literature...
Shades of the king has no clothes...
Lynne, I'm reading this volume as if it's two separate novels: one of 220 pages, the other of 310. These are quite acceptable lengths for a normal shortish novel. Besides, it's like going to a long film at the cinema, and realising half-way through that you haven't looked at your watch.
I like that your French shelf is called Frogs. I had a conversation with some friends the other night and not a single one of them had ever heard of calling someone from France a Frog.
Ian, I have no apprehension when it comes to size :)
I love long books. It's finding the time. My current goal for this year is 300 books and I'm already 40 books past that. (yes, i realize a lot of those are kids books, but still), and have like 15 books on my currently reading list for me...I want to read every book in the world at once. But I've promised myself I wouldn't start proust or gibbons (decline and fall of the roman empire) until I finish one of my big 3 authors complete works of (shakespeare, austen, and/or dickens) making my way thru those steadily, so it will happen. it's just a matter of time... :)
I love long books. It's finding the time. My current goal for this year is 300 books and I'm already 40 books past that. (yes, i realize a lot of those are kids books, but still), and have like 15 books on my currently reading list for me...I want to read every book in the world at once. But I've promised myself I wouldn't start proust or gibbons (decline and fall of the roman empire) until I finish one of my big 3 authors complete works of (shakespeare, austen, and/or dickens) making my way thru those steadily, so it will happen. it's just a matter of time... :)
Anthony wrote: "I like that your French shelf is called Frogs. I had a conversation with some friends the other night and not a single one of them had ever heard of calling someone from France a Frog."
Anthony, this made me undertake some research.
This account seems to be bogus, but entertaining:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_are_Fre...
There is also some fun to be had here:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/s...
Anthony, this made me undertake some research.
This account seems to be bogus, but entertaining:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_are_Fre...
There is also some fun to be had here:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/s...
I always figured it was because of the old joke about French people eating frog legs. There is probably some more obscure reason than that, though. There usually is.
Ian wrote: "You will never enjoy the taste of a Kir Royale unless you sip of one."
I've just seen this comment Ian.
I'm very partial to Kir Royales. It depends on the Champagne too...
I've just seen this comment Ian.
I'm very partial to Kir Royales. It depends on the Champagne too...
Just read this, Ian. What a wonderfully detailed analysis you've made of the Narrator's quest for the ideal love. And thanks for including all those passages from the Greive translation. You are right, it does read beautifully and it corresponds very well to the original.
The poems about Odette capture her perfectly, the sensuous rhythm of her walk, the flirtatious sparkle in her eye...
The poems about Odette capture her perfectly, the sensuous rhythm of her walk, the flirtatious sparkle in her eye...
"He subsequently undertook a full teaching load for no remuneration, declining an opportunity to move to Sydney, so he could continue to cycle everywhere around Canberra."
Wow. "Kudos" to Mr. Grieve. Dedication indeed.
Wow. "Kudos" to Mr. Grieve. Dedication indeed.
You Are Too Like Me for Me To Love
"It was impossible for any love of mine for Andree to be true: she was too intellectual, too highly-strung, too prone to ailment, too much like myself. Though Albertine now seemed empty, Andree was full of something with which I was overfamiliar."
Interesting implications there. Do opposites really attract? And to what degree? Surely there must be at least some commonality, for attraction/communication/sharing to work?
Also, even identical twins are very different from one another in temperament--as anyone who knows a few sets of identical twins can attest to.
"It was impossible for any love of mine for Andree to be true: she was too intellectual, too highly-strung, too prone to ailment, too much like myself. Though Albertine now seemed empty, Andree was full of something with which I was overfamiliar."
Interesting implications there. Do opposites really attract? And to what degree? Surely there must be at least some commonality, for attraction/communication/sharing to work?
Also, even identical twins are very different from one another in temperament--as anyone who knows a few sets of identical twins can attest to.
Fantastic and brilliant review! Though I'm curious, did you get close to the character limit on it? ;)
Thanks, Kyle. I was going to make this a short one, but I kept adding things. With the addition of the last poem, it hit the limit, although GR showed that there were characters available.
Proust isn't yet a gleam in my eye, but your review enhances the reading of The Hare With Amber Eyes: A Family's Century of Art and Loss, one of my current projects.
Jan wrote: "Proust isn't yet a gleam in my eye,...."
You should hurry and give birth to that future love-child! :)
You should hurry and give birth to that future love-child! :)
Kyle said, You should hurry and give birth to that future love-child! :) "
:-)
Kyle also asked if Ian got close to the character limit.
Is there one or was that a joke? I went to the Feedback group and didn't find anything out.
:-)
Kyle also asked if Ian got close to the character limit.
Is there one or was that a joke? I went to the Feedback group and didn't find anything out.
Jan wrote: "Is there one or was that a joke? I went to the Feedback group and didn't find anything out. "
There actually is a character limit, but I have never seen anyone actually hit it, so it was meant to be a joke too. :)
There actually is a character limit, but I have never seen anyone actually hit it, so it was meant to be a joke too. :)
"There actually is a character limit, but I have never seen anyone actually hit it, so it was meant to be a joke too. :) "
Good to know!
Good to know!
The character limit is about 20,000 characters (I've actually forgotten whether it's 30,000). Some of my reviews have been just under, and there are a few longer ones that exceeded it, which I placed in My Writings.
When you create your next review in the box, the number of characters should appear below the box on the right hand side.
A comment post like this seems to be limited to 12,000 characters.
When you create your next review in the box, the number of characters should appear below the box on the right hand side.
A comment post like this seems to be limited to 12,000 characters.
Kyle wrote: "Jan wrote: "Is there one or was that a joke? I went to the Feedback group and didn't find anything out. "
There actually is a character limit, but I have never seen anyone actually hit it, so it w..."
I've seen people place the excess in the comment boxes, so it continues on the same page.
If you think you might need to do this, it always pays to "reserve" the first one or two comment boxes before anybody posts in them.
There actually is a character limit, but I have never seen anyone actually hit it, so it w..."
I've seen people place the excess in the comment boxes, so it continues on the same page.
If you think you might need to do this, it always pays to "reserve" the first one or two comment boxes before anybody posts in them.
This is a brilliant review- I love how you made the prose into poetry- that's a great touch, and it actually helps me to get the full weight of the words and what they signify. I'm slowly going further into Proust these days so this was a great review to read. thanks!
matt wrote: "This is a brilliant review- I love how you made the prose into poetry- that's a great touch, and it actually helps me to get the full weight of the words and what they signify."
Thanks for your generous comments, matt.
Thanks for your generous comments, matt.
Thanks for expanding my horizons and entralling me with your distillations in verse. I love the architecture of forms you portray for love, almost an ethology and almost developmental. With the younger Swann in your last review, there was a more fundamental focus on sensuality and attachment, and now the dance progresses to more complex forms. Reminds me of when psychology was trying to retire psychoanalytic theory and replace it with structuralism.
The forms are multifaceted. Elements I would hope Proust could resolve: 1) how to achieve love without jealousy, 2) how to make love last, 3) how to make the we-ness of love something divine and not an addiction.
The forms are multifaceted. Elements I would hope Proust could resolve: 1) how to achieve love without jealousy, 2) how to make love last, 3) how to make the we-ness of love something divine and not an addiction.
Great stuff, phenomenal review. Are you continuing with the revolving Penguin translators? I plan on reading this Grieve edition and then swapping over to Monticroff, but I'm really interested to see how the translations differ.
Michael wrote: "Thanks for expanding my horizons and entralling me with your distillations in verse. I love the architecture of forms you portray for love, almost an ethology and almost developmental. With the y..."
Michael, I am so grateful that you have responded to the review on this level.
In conjunction with my reading of Proust, I've been working through a personal reading project focussed on philosophical and psychological aspects of love, desire, sex and erotica.
Your questions are right at the heart of my project, and I especially like your use of the term "we-ness", although I probably would have been more pretentious and referred to the French "nous", so I could link up with Luce Irigaray and "Je, Tu, Nous", which is part of the project.
If you haven't already read it, you might be interested in my review of Badiou's "In Praise of Love". (I would check, but I'm supposed to be working!)
Michael, I am so grateful that you have responded to the review on this level.
In conjunction with my reading of Proust, I've been working through a personal reading project focussed on philosophical and psychological aspects of love, desire, sex and erotica.
Your questions are right at the heart of my project, and I especially like your use of the term "we-ness", although I probably would have been more pretentious and referred to the French "nous", so I could link up with Luce Irigaray and "Je, Tu, Nous", which is part of the project.
If you haven't already read it, you might be interested in my review of Badiou's "In Praise of Love". (I would check, but I'm supposed to be working!)
s.penkevich wrote: "Great stuff, phenomenal review. Are you continuing with the revolving Penguin translators? I plan on reading this Grieve edition and then swapping over to Monticroff, but I'm really interested to s..."
Thanks, spenke. I haven't made a decision on the translations. I have both, and I think I will continue with the new ones, until I run out of volumes. At that point, I might come back to the old translation and re-read the earlier volumes, for comparison, then finish.
The important message for us to get across to others is just how readable it is.
I'm kicking myself that I didn't read Proust earlier, though I mightn't have known much about love and sex if I'd started earlier ;)
BTW, I had my first French lesson, post-school, on Tuesday.
Pretty soon, I'll be wearing a toque. I've got a nice The Soundtrack of Our Lives one (assuming they're what we call a beanie).
Thanks, spenke. I haven't made a decision on the translations. I have both, and I think I will continue with the new ones, until I run out of volumes. At that point, I might come back to the old translation and re-read the earlier volumes, for comparison, then finish.
The important message for us to get across to others is just how readable it is.
I'm kicking myself that I didn't read Proust earlier, though I mightn't have known much about love and sex if I'd started earlier ;)
BTW, I had my first French lesson, post-school, on Tuesday.
Pretty soon, I'll be wearing a toque. I've got a nice The Soundtrack of Our Lives one (assuming they're what we call a beanie).
Excellent, I can't wait for the toque pictures.
True, Proust is incredibly readable, and I'm glad that you are getting that message out. I had heard all my literary life 'Proust is hard' or 'why would anyone want to read all that', but when I read book 1, all I could think was 'wow, all that negative hype is so wrong!'.
True, Proust is incredibly readable, and I'm glad that you are getting that message out. I had heard all my literary life 'Proust is hard' or 'why would anyone want to read all that', but when I read book 1, all I could think was 'wow, all that negative hype is so wrong!'.
Traveller wrote: "Interesting implications there. Do opposites really attract? And to what degree? Surely there must be at least some commonality, for attraction/communication/sharing to work?"
This question has always fascinated me, except that I would probably phrase it not so much in terms of the cliche of "opposites attract" as in terms of "complements attract" ("complements fit"?).
I used to be a great believer in doppelganger, but I've never had a relationship with a doppelganger that lasted, and the only relationship that ended in marriage and has lasted is a complementary one, even if FM Sushi is occasionally uncomplimentary.
Besides, I wouldn't be and feel so unique, if I had a doppelganger ;)
The question then, as you've pointed out, is: how much do you need to have in common in order to be complementary?
This question has always fascinated me, except that I would probably phrase it not so much in terms of the cliche of "opposites attract" as in terms of "complements attract" ("complements fit"?).
I used to be a great believer in doppelganger, but I've never had a relationship with a doppelganger that lasted, and the only relationship that ended in marriage and has lasted is a complementary one, even if FM Sushi is occasionally uncomplimentary.
Besides, I wouldn't be and feel so unique, if I had a doppelganger ;)
The question then, as you've pointed out, is: how much do you need to have in common in order to be complementary?
Honestly, I had no intentions whatsoever to read the 2nd volume this year at least, but after reading this magnificent review I'll definitely consider to carry on my Proust journey.
Kyle wrote: "Jan wrote: "Is there one or was that a joke? I went to the Feedback group and didn't find anything out. "
There actually is a character limit, but I have never seen anyone actually hit it, so it w..."
There most definitely is one!
Sadly I have hit it several times. My Hunger Games review (which I didn't even want to write in the first place) came a lot short (or shall I say long? ) (with that particular one, I took up the excess in comment posts below), as did my Middlemarch review, which I had to cull, and my Turn of the Screw review which i also had to cull with about a paragraph, and I believe my Chaucer's Wyfe of Bath I just-just managed to squeeze in by culling a few sentences.
So, yes, there most definitely is quite a severe character limit...
There actually is a character limit, but I have never seen anyone actually hit it, so it w..."
There most definitely is one!
Sadly I have hit it several times. My Hunger Games review (which I didn't even want to write in the first place) came a lot short (or shall I say long? ) (with that particular one, I took up the excess in comment posts below), as did my Middlemarch review, which I had to cull, and my Turn of the Screw review which i also had to cull with about a paragraph, and I believe my Chaucer's Wyfe of Bath I just-just managed to squeeze in by culling a few sentences.
So, yes, there most definitely is quite a severe character limit...
Ian wrote: "The question then, as you've pointed out, is: how much do you need to have in common in order to be complementary? ."
Yes, good question, and one that I have wrestled with ever since becoming entangled in the ups and downs of romantic love and sexual attraction... perhaps this is a question almost as complex as "the meaning of life" , being, "the meaning of love" in its many guises.
Does "love" mean compatibility? Shouldn't we rather be looking for the latter in a potential partner? ..because as we all know, there is, as it seems that Proust knew all too well, a form of it that has the potential to really hurt.
But what am I saying? All love hurts.
If it hurts, you will know that it is love. :)
Yes, good question, and one that I have wrestled with ever since becoming entangled in the ups and downs of romantic love and sexual attraction... perhaps this is a question almost as complex as "the meaning of life" , being, "the meaning of love" in its many guises.
Does "love" mean compatibility? Shouldn't we rather be looking for the latter in a potential partner? ..because as we all know, there is, as it seems that Proust knew all too well, a form of it that has the potential to really hurt.
But what am I saying? All love hurts.
If it hurts, you will know that it is love. :)
Traveler said, on character limits, "There most definitely is one!
Sadly I have hit it several times.
Thanks for your informative comments and to Ian & Kyle as well. At least, from what you say, the review isn't *lost* if you go over. As to losing work, in typing longer reviews on GR, can the work be saved? While in edit mode?
She said, on love,
"But what am I saying? All love hurts.
If it hurts, you will know that it is love. :)
I thought it was "in his kiss." ...But that may be too old a reference for you. Seriously, pain may be necessary but isn't sufficient. I haven't read Proust, though, so should butt out.
Sadly I have hit it several times.
Thanks for your informative comments and to Ian & Kyle as well. At least, from what you say, the review isn't *lost* if you go over. As to losing work, in typing longer reviews on GR, can the work be saved? While in edit mode?
She said, on love,
"But what am I saying? All love hurts.
If it hurts, you will know that it is love. :)
I thought it was "in his kiss." ...But that may be too old a reference for you. Seriously, pain may be necessary but isn't sufficient. I haven't read Proust, though, so should butt out.
Jan wrote: "Traveler said, on character limits, "There most definitely is one!
Sadly I have hit it several times.
Thanks for your informative comments and to Ian & Kyle as well. At least, from what you say, ..."
I meant pain in the sense of that there is always potential pain in love; the deeper the love, the bigger the risk. It is our loved ones who affect us the most deeply and who has the power to hurt us the most deeply.
Do not trust just posting reviews or long posts onto GR! they could very easily go floating off into the grey wasteland where socks' partners go, through the cracks and black holes of cyberspace... I try to remember to even highlight and copy long posts.
Reviews are best typed in a Word document, but if you are one of those spur-of-the-moment reviewers, before you post, press the CTRL key and the A key on your keyboad simultaneously to highlight the whole thing, then highlight and copy it, then paste it to Word, Wordpad, or whatever text editor you are using. :)
Sadly I have hit it several times.
Thanks for your informative comments and to Ian & Kyle as well. At least, from what you say, ..."
I meant pain in the sense of that there is always potential pain in love; the deeper the love, the bigger the risk. It is our loved ones who affect us the most deeply and who has the power to hurt us the most deeply.
Do not trust just posting reviews or long posts onto GR! they could very easily go floating off into the grey wasteland where socks' partners go, through the cracks and black holes of cyberspace... I try to remember to even highlight and copy long posts.
Reviews are best typed in a Word document, but if you are one of those spur-of-the-moment reviewers, before you post, press the CTRL key and the A key on your keyboad simultaneously to highlight the whole thing, then highlight and copy it, then paste it to Word, Wordpad, or whatever text editor you are using. :)
Ian wrote: "Once you get entangled, I think it's all problem solving and resilience, isn't it?"
I don't personally believe that all people are compatible. One cannot choose your children or your parents, so that is already a strain--therefore I believe that choosing someone compatible as a love partner is pretty important--but, the heart doesn't always tell us true...
Do you think that you could "work" at loving someone who holds a world view that is radically opposing to your own? ..or who exhibits personality traits that you find repulsive?
Have you read "Jude The Obscure", btw?
I don't personally believe that all people are compatible. One cannot choose your children or your parents, so that is already a strain--therefore I believe that choosing someone compatible as a love partner is pretty important--but, the heart doesn't always tell us true...
Do you think that you could "work" at loving someone who holds a world view that is radically opposing to your own? ..or who exhibits personality traits that you find repulsive?
Have you read "Jude The Obscure", btw?
Traveller wrote: "Ian wrote: "Once you get entangled, I think it's all problem solving and resilience, isn't it?"
I don't personally believe that all people are compatible."
I meant "entangled in the ups and downs of romantic love and sexual attraction" as per your original post, so I was assuming that there was some underlying attraction or compatibility that was sufficient to warrant a relationship.
Having established some sort of attraction or compatibility, the issue is how long can the relationship last?
When younger, I probably didn't have the desire or skill set to focus on problem solving or resilience enough to keep what might otherwise have been valuable. I just moved on.
I definitely don't mean that for me problem-solving and resilience could hold together an incompatible relationship.
I think I discussed some of these issues in my review of the CBT book. It just didn't ring true that you should try to hold a fundamentally incompatible relationship together, just to prove your emotional malleability.
"When I was just a young boy, my mama said to me, there's a girl in the world who's just right for you, but she probably lives in Tahiti."
I thought I had read all of Hardy's fiction, but honestly it would have been, shock horror, over 40 years ago, and I don't remember the plot of Jude the Obscure.
I don't personally believe that all people are compatible."
I meant "entangled in the ups and downs of romantic love and sexual attraction" as per your original post, so I was assuming that there was some underlying attraction or compatibility that was sufficient to warrant a relationship.
Having established some sort of attraction or compatibility, the issue is how long can the relationship last?
When younger, I probably didn't have the desire or skill set to focus on problem solving or resilience enough to keep what might otherwise have been valuable. I just moved on.
I definitely don't mean that for me problem-solving and resilience could hold together an incompatible relationship.
I think I discussed some of these issues in my review of the CBT book. It just didn't ring true that you should try to hold a fundamentally incompatible relationship together, just to prove your emotional malleability.
"When I was just a young boy, my mama said to me, there's a girl in the world who's just right for you, but she probably lives in Tahiti."
I thought I had read all of Hardy's fiction, but honestly it would have been, shock horror, over 40 years ago, and I don't remember the plot of Jude the Obscure.
In Lydia Davis' Preface, she mentions that one of the Translators was a bit tardy. I wonder if it was Mr Grieve?
I haven't had any problems with the translation in my brief reading so far.