Riku Sayuj's Reviews > Republic
Republic
by
The Republic: An Apology
“The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato.”
~ Alfred North Whitehead
The Famous Republic
'The Republic' is either reverenced, reviled or just plain ignored. Though it keeps resurfacing, it has been pushed back often, being accused of bigotry, racism, elitism, casteism, anti-democratic nature, the list is endless. But it is beyond doubt, one of the preeminent philosophical works and has been quoted, referenced or adapted by almost all of the major thinkers since.
The ideas of Socrates have had an afterlife that is as long and varied as the thousand year journey envisioned for souls in the famous Story of Er. It is impossible to catalogue the full list of impacts but Whitehead's quote (introductory to this review) gives adequate flavor. The practical influence of Republic is more difficult to gauge than its impact on the theorizing of later thinkers - over the centuries, individuals have discovered in Plato’s works the inspiration for undertaking political or social or educational reform and have used it as the springboard for much revolutionary thought, and deeds.
Republic has inspired in addition to all the expository analysis, also countless creative interpretations, which have shaped our vision of future possibilities, limits and of extremities. Many depictions of both utopian societies and their dystopian counterparts, ranging from Thomas More’s Utopia to Jonathan Swift’s Gulliver's Travels to Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World to George Orwell’s 1984, have their roots in the ideal city brought to life by Socrates, Glaucon, and Adeimantus. Contemporary films such as Gattaca and The Matrix may not owe direct inspiration to Republic, but they participate in a long tradition of artistic works that ultimately trace their concerns back to the political, social, and metaphysical issues raised in Republic.
But in spite of all this, the original work retains a reputation for being difficult and hard to penetrate. This has meant that the scholars have more or less appropriated this brilliantly composed treatise, and that is a pity. There is great suspense in every page as you eagerly try to work your way through Socrates’ arguments… anticipating now, guessing now, failing now, but always on the edge of your seats at the sparkle of his wit and wisdom. The dialogues are constructed with an almost unbelievable care and subtlety. The drama is breathtaking and all-pervading, even in the stock responses to theoretical or rhetorical questions. One is never allowed to sit and absorb passively, but is forced to constantly interact with the dialogue. It is as much fun to read as a Shakespearean drama.
The Offensive Republic
Now, to examine some of the reasons why The Republic offends modern sensibilities:
Much of the contemporary discomfort with Plato’s state arises from his countenancing of censorship, a rigid caste system, etc. But these are in a way unfortunate misunderstandings. A close reading of the text would make clear that these catch-all descriptions of Plato’s state are not as representative as they are made out to be. For example, the caste system that is first to get blamed is hardly a rigid hereditary system, but a strict meritocratic system that is much more equal than anything that we have seen till date. It involves a strict battery of tests (similar to the aptitude tests of today) based on which every individual is to be judged (and opponents of IQ tests may relax - these are meant to be much more practical examinations).
Also, the popular rendering of the title as “The Republic” itself is unfortunate, giving it an obvious political and ideological overtone. In the manuscripts and ancient citations, the title of Republic is given as Politeia (“Constitution”) or Politeiai (“Constitutions”); Peri dikaiou (literally, “concerning that which is just”) is sometimes listed as an alternative title.
The Misunderstood Republic
I had planned on giving a blow by blow defense of the most reviled aspects of The Republic, but that is not the point I wish to make here. The primary mistake in criticizing The Republic is to assume that it was meant to be a political treatise in the first place. It is not. The whole argument begins from a question of identifying what ‘Justice’ is and whether it is beneficial to live a ‘Just Life’. This is the crux. ‘Why’ and ‘How’ to be Just and ‘What’ is this “Justice’ anyway? That is what Socrates wants to explore. He takes detours in this exploration. He uses metaphors - of State (as larger manifestation), of Caves, etc. But they all lead us back to the same basic question.
To identify this basic concern, we need only look at the complex structure of the dialogue itself. Republic’s “narrative” is structured in an almost circular pattern. This circular pattern is complex, evoking the narrative patterns of epic poems such as Iliad and Odyssey. Most basically, the dialogue’s two main concerns (defining justice and ascertaining its relationship to happiness) are treated in two corresponding sections (books 2-4 and books 8-9) that are interrupted by what is nominally a series of digressions in books 5-7, and 10. These nominal digressions, of course, create the dialogue’s most memorable metaphors, but they are meant to be digressions that add to the core. Not the other way around.
At its most basic level, Republic is an effort to forge a consistent and meaningful redefinition of “Justice”. The aretê that is explored lies in nothing outward, but rests solely in the mature reason and regard for what is beneficial to the soul. Not all the details in these allegories stand up to logical analysis, but they are not meant to.
This is made clear by the fact that The Republic’s interlocutors repeatedly draw attention to the incomplete, provisional, and at times unsatisfactory nature of their treatment of justice, happiness, the ideal political community, the theory of the ideas, the cognitive faculties of human beings, etc. The inadequacy of “the method we are employing” is acknowledged at 4.435c-d, at 6.504b-d and in many other places.
The Personal Constitution: A Constitution of the Perfect Life
The Perfect State sketched out (which is the stub of almost all criticism) is only an approximation devised to arrive at the Perfect Man, and that is why the so called bad aspects can be deemed acceptable. The mistake, as stated already, is to see it as a purely political treatise while it is in fact a treatise on justice and how to live the perfect life - the ‘Constitution’ of a perfect life.
In the end, the state is not fleshed out enough to really form a complete constitution for any state that can exist in reality (and not just as an idea). But the psychological part (it is curious how this part has generated so much less criticism, in comparison) is - we return in the end (and all the way in between) to the original question of how an individual should order his life - what his virtues should be. It is a political critique piggy-backing on a personal enquiry and hence any commentary of it cannot treat them differently. Censorship, slaves, aristocracy are all wonderful aspects in an individual but not palatable in a state (to modern eyes). Hence, we can only criticize that the greater to smaller equality is not well realized (i.e. from state => individual). But then Socrates, as above, is always eager to make the point about the provisional nature of his metaphor which is only meant to incite thinking and not as an answer - that is just not the way to deal with true lovers of truth, with true philosophers.
[Cheeky counterproposal by the reviewer's alter-ego: “Or all the personal stuff is just a convenient cloak for the political criticism that is the real purpose! After all, we cannot forget the historical milieu in which Plato composed it. He had enough axes to grind!”]
Indeed, the more we approach certain aspects of the text from analytic and conceptual standpoints, the more we find that Socrates and his companions make innumerable assumptions and leaps of logic that is not satisfactory or fully justified. Each of these can be fairly scrutinized and contested, and have been. We may raise any number of questions about its relevance to our experiences and value systems. Much of Republic, especially its political philosophy, argument for Censorship and Social structuring, is at odds with modern ideals; some readers will doubtless be dissatisfied with, among other things, its unapologetic elitism and naive (almost laughable) confidence in the integrity of “philosopher-rulers.” Some, however, may find that its critique of ancient Athenian society opens the door to meaningful questions about contemporary cultural practices and priorities. And even more meaningful questions on how to organize our inner impulses and constitution.
Philosopher, Be Thyself
We need to understand that the Platonic Dialogues, in principle, are not meant to represent a simple doctrine that can be followed, they instead are meant to prepare the way for philosophizing. They are not easy guide books to follow. They require work from the reader, above and beyond the ideas presented. That is one of the reasons for the dialogue nature in which they are structured. Plato’s overarching purpose in writing the Republic was to effect a change in his readers similar to the change that Glaucon and Adeimantus undergo at Socrates’ hands in the fictional world of the dialogue. This purpose can be summed up in the word protreptic, from the Greek protrepein, which means “turn (someone) forward,” hence “propel,” “urge on,” “exhort.” Plato uses literary art, which in his case includes but is not limited to philosophical argument, to move his reader toward a greater readiness to adopt a just way of life.
The dialogues are thus intended to perform the function of a living teacher who makes his students think. One must philosophize to understand them. One must look at the microcosm of the dialogues as well as the macrocosm of the world that we inhabit simultaneously to understand them. It is in this process that the dialogues assist, insist and themselves provide a training in.
We can only conclude by asking questions, in the true spirit of the dialectic method:
Can we then say that we are convinced, that justice, as defined by Socrates, is something intrinsically valuable? Are we convinced that the just man can be “happy” even if he does not enjoy a reputation for justice, nor any other material benefit, in this life or after?
OR
Have Socrates and his companions persuaded us that the ideal city-state they describe in Republic is truly the best political community possible? Do we believe that Socrates himself thinks so? Is that what we take away from such a deep examination of how to live our lives? Or do we let the Story of Er guide us back to the truer motives of the interlocutors?
by
Riku Sayuj's review
bookshelves: direct-phil, epic-stuff, myth-religion, r-r-rs, reference, translated, philosophy, favorites, classics, plato, great-books-quest
Sep 24, 2011
bookshelves: direct-phil, epic-stuff, myth-religion, r-r-rs, reference, translated, philosophy, favorites, classics, plato, great-books-quest
Is the attempt to determine the way of man’s life so small a matter in your eyes—to determine how life may be passed by each one of us to the greatest advantage? (1.344d)
I propose therefore that we inquire into the nature of justice and injustice, first as they appear in the State, and secondly in the individual, proceeding from the greater to the lesser and comparing them. (2.368e—369a)
The Republic: An Apology
“The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato.”
~ Alfred North Whitehead
The Famous Republic
'The Republic' is either reverenced, reviled or just plain ignored. Though it keeps resurfacing, it has been pushed back often, being accused of bigotry, racism, elitism, casteism, anti-democratic nature, the list is endless. But it is beyond doubt, one of the preeminent philosophical works and has been quoted, referenced or adapted by almost all of the major thinkers since.
The ideas of Socrates have had an afterlife that is as long and varied as the thousand year journey envisioned for souls in the famous Story of Er. It is impossible to catalogue the full list of impacts but Whitehead's quote (introductory to this review) gives adequate flavor. The practical influence of Republic is more difficult to gauge than its impact on the theorizing of later thinkers - over the centuries, individuals have discovered in Plato’s works the inspiration for undertaking political or social or educational reform and have used it as the springboard for much revolutionary thought, and deeds.
Republic has inspired in addition to all the expository analysis, also countless creative interpretations, which have shaped our vision of future possibilities, limits and of extremities. Many depictions of both utopian societies and their dystopian counterparts, ranging from Thomas More’s Utopia to Jonathan Swift’s Gulliver's Travels to Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World to George Orwell’s 1984, have their roots in the ideal city brought to life by Socrates, Glaucon, and Adeimantus. Contemporary films such as Gattaca and The Matrix may not owe direct inspiration to Republic, but they participate in a long tradition of artistic works that ultimately trace their concerns back to the political, social, and metaphysical issues raised in Republic.
But in spite of all this, the original work retains a reputation for being difficult and hard to penetrate. This has meant that the scholars have more or less appropriated this brilliantly composed treatise, and that is a pity. There is great suspense in every page as you eagerly try to work your way through Socrates’ arguments… anticipating now, guessing now, failing now, but always on the edge of your seats at the sparkle of his wit and wisdom. The dialogues are constructed with an almost unbelievable care and subtlety. The drama is breathtaking and all-pervading, even in the stock responses to theoretical or rhetorical questions. One is never allowed to sit and absorb passively, but is forced to constantly interact with the dialogue. It is as much fun to read as a Shakespearean drama.
The Offensive Republic
Now, to examine some of the reasons why The Republic offends modern sensibilities:
Much of the contemporary discomfort with Plato’s state arises from his countenancing of censorship, a rigid caste system, etc. But these are in a way unfortunate misunderstandings. A close reading of the text would make clear that these catch-all descriptions of Plato’s state are not as representative as they are made out to be. For example, the caste system that is first to get blamed is hardly a rigid hereditary system, but a strict meritocratic system that is much more equal than anything that we have seen till date. It involves a strict battery of tests (similar to the aptitude tests of today) based on which every individual is to be judged (and opponents of IQ tests may relax - these are meant to be much more practical examinations).
Also, the popular rendering of the title as “The Republic” itself is unfortunate, giving it an obvious political and ideological overtone. In the manuscripts and ancient citations, the title of Republic is given as Politeia (“Constitution”) or Politeiai (“Constitutions”); Peri dikaiou (literally, “concerning that which is just”) is sometimes listed as an alternative title.
The Misunderstood Republic
I had planned on giving a blow by blow defense of the most reviled aspects of The Republic, but that is not the point I wish to make here. The primary mistake in criticizing The Republic is to assume that it was meant to be a political treatise in the first place. It is not. The whole argument begins from a question of identifying what ‘Justice’ is and whether it is beneficial to live a ‘Just Life’. This is the crux. ‘Why’ and ‘How’ to be Just and ‘What’ is this “Justice’ anyway? That is what Socrates wants to explore. He takes detours in this exploration. He uses metaphors - of State (as larger manifestation), of Caves, etc. But they all lead us back to the same basic question.
To identify this basic concern, we need only look at the complex structure of the dialogue itself. Republic’s “narrative” is structured in an almost circular pattern. This circular pattern is complex, evoking the narrative patterns of epic poems such as Iliad and Odyssey. Most basically, the dialogue’s two main concerns (defining justice and ascertaining its relationship to happiness) are treated in two corresponding sections (books 2-4 and books 8-9) that are interrupted by what is nominally a series of digressions in books 5-7, and 10. These nominal digressions, of course, create the dialogue’s most memorable metaphors, but they are meant to be digressions that add to the core. Not the other way around.
At its most basic level, Republic is an effort to forge a consistent and meaningful redefinition of “Justice”. The aretê that is explored lies in nothing outward, but rests solely in the mature reason and regard for what is beneficial to the soul. Not all the details in these allegories stand up to logical analysis, but they are not meant to.
This is made clear by the fact that The Republic’s interlocutors repeatedly draw attention to the incomplete, provisional, and at times unsatisfactory nature of their treatment of justice, happiness, the ideal political community, the theory of the ideas, the cognitive faculties of human beings, etc. The inadequacy of “the method we are employing” is acknowledged at 4.435c-d, at 6.504b-d and in many other places.
The Personal Constitution: A Constitution of the Perfect Life
The Perfect State sketched out (which is the stub of almost all criticism) is only an approximation devised to arrive at the Perfect Man, and that is why the so called bad aspects can be deemed acceptable. The mistake, as stated already, is to see it as a purely political treatise while it is in fact a treatise on justice and how to live the perfect life - the ‘Constitution’ of a perfect life.
"He will look at the city which is within him, and take heed that no disorder occur in it, such as might arise either from superfluity or from want; and upon this principle he will regulate his property and gain or spend according to his means."
In the end, the state is not fleshed out enough to really form a complete constitution for any state that can exist in reality (and not just as an idea). But the psychological part (it is curious how this part has generated so much less criticism, in comparison) is - we return in the end (and all the way in between) to the original question of how an individual should order his life - what his virtues should be. It is a political critique piggy-backing on a personal enquiry and hence any commentary of it cannot treat them differently. Censorship, slaves, aristocracy are all wonderful aspects in an individual but not palatable in a state (to modern eyes). Hence, we can only criticize that the greater to smaller equality is not well realized (i.e. from state => individual). But then Socrates, as above, is always eager to make the point about the provisional nature of his metaphor which is only meant to incite thinking and not as an answer - that is just not the way to deal with true lovers of truth, with true philosophers.
[Cheeky counterproposal by the reviewer's alter-ego: “Or all the personal stuff is just a convenient cloak for the political criticism that is the real purpose! After all, we cannot forget the historical milieu in which Plato composed it. He had enough axes to grind!”]
Indeed, the more we approach certain aspects of the text from analytic and conceptual standpoints, the more we find that Socrates and his companions make innumerable assumptions and leaps of logic that is not satisfactory or fully justified. Each of these can be fairly scrutinized and contested, and have been. We may raise any number of questions about its relevance to our experiences and value systems. Much of Republic, especially its political philosophy, argument for Censorship and Social structuring, is at odds with modern ideals; some readers will doubtless be dissatisfied with, among other things, its unapologetic elitism and naive (almost laughable) confidence in the integrity of “philosopher-rulers.” Some, however, may find that its critique of ancient Athenian society opens the door to meaningful questions about contemporary cultural practices and priorities. And even more meaningful questions on how to organize our inner impulses and constitution.
Philosopher, Be Thyself
We need to understand that the Platonic Dialogues, in principle, are not meant to represent a simple doctrine that can be followed, they instead are meant to prepare the way for philosophizing. They are not easy guide books to follow. They require work from the reader, above and beyond the ideas presented. That is one of the reasons for the dialogue nature in which they are structured. Plato’s overarching purpose in writing the Republic was to effect a change in his readers similar to the change that Glaucon and Adeimantus undergo at Socrates’ hands in the fictional world of the dialogue. This purpose can be summed up in the word protreptic, from the Greek protrepein, which means “turn (someone) forward,” hence “propel,” “urge on,” “exhort.” Plato uses literary art, which in his case includes but is not limited to philosophical argument, to move his reader toward a greater readiness to adopt a just way of life.
The dialogues are thus intended to perform the function of a living teacher who makes his students think. One must philosophize to understand them. One must look at the microcosm of the dialogues as well as the macrocosm of the world that we inhabit simultaneously to understand them. It is in this process that the dialogues assist, insist and themselves provide a training in.
We can only conclude by asking questions, in the true spirit of the dialectic method:
Can we then say that we are convinced, that justice, as defined by Socrates, is something intrinsically valuable? Are we convinced that the just man can be “happy” even if he does not enjoy a reputation for justice, nor any other material benefit, in this life or after?
OR
Have Socrates and his companions persuaded us that the ideal city-state they describe in Republic is truly the best political community possible? Do we believe that Socrates himself thinks so? Is that what we take away from such a deep examination of how to live our lives? Or do we let the Story of Er guide us back to the truer motives of the interlocutors?
"I really do not know as yet, but whither the argument may blow, thither we go."
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Comments Showing 1-47 of 47 (47 new)
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Katie
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Jan 02, 2014 01:19PM
What a fantastic review! I really enjoyed reading it. I need to read more Plato.
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Katie wrote: "What a fantastic review! I really enjoyed reading it. I need to read more Plato."
Oh, I will look forward to it!
I will be reviewing a couple or so more of the other editions of Republic, primarily on the merits of various translations. Then onto rest of Plato, starting with Gorgias.
Oh, I will look forward to it!
I will be reviewing a couple or so more of the other editions of Republic, primarily on the merits of various translations. Then onto rest of Plato, starting with Gorgias.
Excellent! 100% agree on both ideas here : the Republic is a must-read even if some parts may seem odd for us, and the importance of the situation of Athenes after the Peloponnesian war in order to understand the problems Plato wanted to solve.
Yann wrote: "Excellent! 100% agree on both ideas here : the Republic is a must-read even if some parts may seem odd for us, and the importance of the situation of Athenes after the Peloponnesian war in order to..."
Thank you, Yann! Although, I firmly believe that Plato had enough foresight to raise himself above the political motivations.
They do play a major part - especially the snuck-in apologies for Socrates (against Aristophanes, the conviction, etc) and the obvious distaste with the situation (read democracy and the sophists) in Athens.
But, the majority of the enquiry presented is truly eternal in character. As you said, a must-read!
Thank you, Yann! Although, I firmly believe that Plato had enough foresight to raise himself above the political motivations.
They do play a major part - especially the snuck-in apologies for Socrates (against Aristophanes, the conviction, etc) and the obvious distaste with the situation (read democracy and the sophists) in Athens.
But, the majority of the enquiry presented is truly eternal in character. As you said, a must-read!
Good review. I do agree with some of it. The best essay on the Republic (by far) is A. Diès' long introduction to the Budé edition. Dikaiosyne means (and should be translated as) "morality", not as justice in the narrow, 'political' sense; and 'politeia', the title, refers to somethng like res publica (latin), which really means something like 'society', and not to 'republic' in the sense of a 'state'. (Res publca, of course, is opposed to res privata -- which latter refers to the affairs of the household or oikos, and not to those of the individual; res publica thus refers to affairs *between* households). Finally, as the intelude on Bk II (and the whole arc of the argument in Bks. II-IX) amply proves, the dialogue is about the soul, and where morality in the soul resides, the whole discussion of the society 'writ large' having been introduced mainly for purposes of illustration (like letters on a larger canvas). The tripartite division of the soul, however, is not intended to be taken literally, as even the Republic hints at the 'later' doctrine that the soul is a unity.
But read Diès...he's quite brilliant.
But read Diès...he's quite brilliant.
AC wrote: "Good review. I do agree with some of it. The best essay on the Republic (by far) is A. Diès' long introduction to the Budé edition. Dikaiosyne means (and should be translated as) "morality", not as..."
You are right, the translation of individual words is crucial in the understanding. I am now reading the Allan Bloom edited version to supplement this.
I think the translation of Mousikê is quite crucial too - it refers to all sorts of cultural education (hence “education for the soul”) and really deserves the lengthy treatment it gets... I wil probably write on what Mousikê means in the modern sense - the cultural education on intemperance that our own young generation receives must be atrocious to the founders of Republic.
You are right, the translation of individual words is crucial in the understanding. I am now reading the Allan Bloom edited version to supplement this.
I think the translation of Mousikê is quite crucial too - it refers to all sorts of cultural education (hence “education for the soul”) and really deserves the lengthy treatment it gets... I wil probably write on what Mousikê means in the modern sense - the cultural education on intemperance that our own young generation receives must be atrocious to the founders of Republic.
Riku wrote: "AC wrote: "Good review. I do agree with some of it. The best essay on the Republic (by far) is A. Diès' long introduction to the Budé edition. Dikaiosyne means (and should be translated as) "morali..."
Forget Bloom. Total bullshit. Straussian rubbish. JMHO, of course, fwiw. Use Shorey's Loebs.
Forget Bloom. Total bullshit. Straussian rubbish. JMHO, of course, fwiw. Use Shorey's Loebs.
AC wrote: "Forget Bloom. Total bullshit. Straussian rubbish. JMHO, of course, fwiw. Use Shorey's Loebs."
Then you must be appalled to hear that originally I had planned on starting with the Badiou adaptation. But it was too 'adapted' to be of much use to a first time student.
Then you must be appalled to hear that originally I had planned on starting with the Badiou adaptation. But it was too 'adapted' to be of much use to a first time student.
AC wrote: "Good review. I do agree with some of it. The best essay on the Republic (by far) is A. Diès' long introduction to the Budé edition. Dikaiosyne means (and should be translated as) "morality", not as..."
I have been reading up a bit more on this...
The word Justice is imperfect, but it captures two major aspects of Dikaiosune:
1. Both are primarily used for law-abiding behavior or institutions, where law means regularity and predictability
2. Both apply in contexts of relations between people. They are primarily 'other-directed', as opposed to virtues like honesty, etc, which may not involve anyone else.
Of course, Dikaiosune goes beyond ‘justice’ in implying 'appropriateness'. In moral terms, this would mean not wanting or taking more than what is deserved.
The English word ‘just’ would approach this meaning in non-moral contexts. 'Morality’ as translation on the other hand would lose the institutional aspect of Dikaiosune.
So it is a tough choice, but I think Justice is a more apt translation of the word. I would prefer 'Morality' as it would lend weight to my own arguments about the book, but I don't think it gets it right.
I have been reading up a bit more on this...
The word Justice is imperfect, but it captures two major aspects of Dikaiosune:
1. Both are primarily used for law-abiding behavior or institutions, where law means regularity and predictability
2. Both apply in contexts of relations between people. They are primarily 'other-directed', as opposed to virtues like honesty, etc, which may not involve anyone else.
Of course, Dikaiosune goes beyond ‘justice’ in implying 'appropriateness'. In moral terms, this would mean not wanting or taking more than what is deserved.
The English word ‘just’ would approach this meaning in non-moral contexts. 'Morality’ as translation on the other hand would lose the institutional aspect of Dikaiosune.
So it is a tough choice, but I think Justice is a more apt translation of the word. I would prefer 'Morality' as it would lend weight to my own arguments about the book, but I don't think it gets it right.
Thanks for the deeper education on a book left undigested by me from school days. Good to see how civilizations may rise and fall but thinking about founding ideas of human society such as justice is worth revisiting. How about the importance of art and poetry--did he get a bad rap on his apparent bad rap?
Michael wrote: "How about the importance of art and poetry--did he get a bad rap on his apparent bad rap? "
I need to read more on it... it is a vexing question. It is especially hard to defend a guy who tried to bowdlerize Homer!
But I feel that he was justified, if not at the state level, at least at the individual level - in Reason exercising strict control over what we allow ourselves to consume in the name of entertainment. (censoring ourselves, that is)
So as long as I read the City as a metaphor for the Soul, I am okay with not rapping him. As a political recommendation, we will have to go into what exactly poetry (Mousikê) signified during his time to give an informed rapping.
I need to read more on it... it is a vexing question. It is especially hard to defend a guy who tried to bowdlerize Homer!
But I feel that he was justified, if not at the state level, at least at the individual level - in Reason exercising strict control over what we allow ourselves to consume in the name of entertainment. (censoring ourselves, that is)
So as long as I read the City as a metaphor for the Soul, I am okay with not rapping him. As a political recommendation, we will have to go into what exactly poetry (Mousikê) signified during his time to give an informed rapping.
Interesting. IMHO, morality, like ethic, derives from mores and ethos, ie habitual behaviour. We adopt it by imitation, it's unconscious, "alogical", unreasonable: so when something happens suddenly, we react correctly (hoppefully, with justice).
Dike, is the institution (dikastes is the juge), and a conscious opinion. It's a convention, it's "logical", reasonable. It is subjet to philosophical inquiry, like here in The Republic.
So, i would have chosen justice for dikaoisune too. But since the purpose of morality is to behave automaticly with justice, moral has become a synonym of just, so both are acceptable.
Dike, is the institution (dikastes is the juge), and a conscious opinion. It's a convention, it's "logical", reasonable. It is subjet to philosophical inquiry, like here in The Republic.
So, i would have chosen justice for dikaoisune too. But since the purpose of morality is to behave automaticly with justice, moral has become a synonym of just, so both are acceptable.
Yann wrote: "Interesting. IMHO, morality, like ethic, derives from mores and ethos, ie habitual behaviour. We adopt it by imitation, it's unconscious, "alogical", unreasonable: so when something happens suddenl..."
Very true! Thanks for pointing out the 'logical' vs 'unconscious' aspect of it. Important distinction. The point is indeed to bring it into the fold of philosophic inquiry.
Very true! Thanks for pointing out the 'logical' vs 'unconscious' aspect of it. Important distinction. The point is indeed to bring it into the fold of philosophic inquiry.
Michael wrote: "Thanks for the deeper education on a book left undigested by me from school days. Good to see how civilizations may rise and fall but thinking about founding ideas of human society such as justice..."
Also, we can compare with this quote:
“If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.”
- Dalai Lama
Also, we can compare with this quote:
“If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.”
- Dalai Lama
Riku wrote: "Very true! Thanks for pointing out the 'logical' vs 'unconscious' aspect of it. Important distinction. The point is indeed to bring it into the fold of philosophic inquiry. "
This distinction is used by Philo or Plutarch too, and i find it usefull, because it fits well with the partition of soul (logos/epithumia/thumos).
Saying that justice is part of logos does not mean that we choose what is good or bad: we feel it immediately, it's psychological. That's why it's so hard if not impossible to define justice correctly, and is subjet to political debate, infinite controversy, philosophical, religious or metaphysical inquiry, etc...
Morality/ethic is the practical side of it, how to shape the thumos controling epithumia: how to condition ourselves to act correctly, with education, discipline, shame, set of rules to apply, or following others behaviour, etc... What kind of music we hear may be part of it, since it seems to have a strong effect on thumos.
This distinction is used by Philo or Plutarch too, and i find it usefull, because it fits well with the partition of soul (logos/epithumia/thumos).
Saying that justice is part of logos does not mean that we choose what is good or bad: we feel it immediately, it's psychological. That's why it's so hard if not impossible to define justice correctly, and is subjet to political debate, infinite controversy, philosophical, religious or metaphysical inquiry, etc...
Morality/ethic is the practical side of it, how to shape the thumos controling epithumia: how to condition ourselves to act correctly, with education, discipline, shame, set of rules to apply, or following others behaviour, etc... What kind of music we hear may be part of it, since it seems to have a strong effect on thumos.
Yann wrote: "What kind of music we hear may be part of it, since it seems to have a strong effect on thumos."
Wonderfully put. Especially if we can use the music/stories as justification for thumos-driven action.
What you describe is exactly the state of society Plato was revolting against in The Republic.... and is so relevant even today. The same not is found in the context of Oratory in Gorgias too.
Wonderfully put. Especially if we can use the music/stories as justification for thumos-driven action.
What you describe is exactly the state of society Plato was revolting against in The Republic.... and is so relevant even today. The same not is found in the context of Oratory in Gorgias too.
Riku wrote: "AC wrote: "Good review. I do agree with some of it. The best essay on the Republic (by far) is A. Diès' long introduction to the Budé edition. Dikaiosyne means (and should be translated as) "morali..."
The word (dikaiosyne) CAN mean 'justice' in the narrow sense and, in other writers, often does. Even in the Republic, Plato uses it in this way on a couple of occasions. But throughout most of the dialogue, it is used in the 'broader' sense. That this is so was seen as long ago as Stallbaum. And yes, i can supply a detailed bibliography in support of this claim. It is a philological and scholarly question and can only be answered by a detailed examination of the text. Trust me on his one. Lol
The word (dikaiosyne) CAN mean 'justice' in the narrow sense and, in other writers, often does. Even in the Republic, Plato uses it in this way on a couple of occasions. But throughout most of the dialogue, it is used in the 'broader' sense. That this is so was seen as long ago as Stallbaum. And yes, i can supply a detailed bibliography in support of this claim. It is a philological and scholarly question and can only be answered by a detailed examination of the text. Trust me on his one. Lol
Yann wrote: "Saying that justice is part of logos does not mean that we choose what is good or bad: we feel it immediately, it's psychological."
This is at the cutting edge of today's psychology and even behavioral economics too. Books like Thinking, Fast and Slow continue to explore our automatic biases...
This is at the cutting edge of today's psychology and even behavioral economics too. Books like Thinking, Fast and Slow continue to explore our automatic biases...
AC wrote: "Riku wrote: "AC wrote: "Good review. I do agree with some of it. The best essay on the Republic (by far) is A. Diès' long introduction to the Budé edition. Dikaiosyne means (and should be translate..."
I do trust you! :) No harm in trying to understand for oneself that accepting received wisdom, right? For instance, this discussion has helped me understand the connotations of the word much better now.
At risk of exasperating you, why is 'justice' narrow and 'morality' broad? I am not sure I can see the distinction in terms of breadth/scope of the words...
I do trust you! :) No harm in trying to understand for oneself that accepting received wisdom, right? For instance, this discussion has helped me understand the connotations of the word much better now.
At risk of exasperating you, why is 'justice' narrow and 'morality' broad? I am not sure I can see the distinction in terms of breadth/scope of the words...
Riku wrote: "AC wrote: "Riku wrote: "AC wrote: "Good review. I do agree with some of it. The best essay on the Republic (by far) is A. Diès' long introduction to the Budé edition. Dikaiosyne means (and should b..."
Just in terms of extension. The idea of morality would include, for Plato, the problem of justice in the political sense, but not vice versa. This is a standard topos in the attempts at definitions in th 'early' dialogues -- the demonstration that a proposed definitin is either too broad or too narrow as, e.g., in the refutation of Cephalus in Bk I
Just in terms of extension. The idea of morality would include, for Plato, the problem of justice in the political sense, but not vice versa. This is a standard topos in the attempts at definitions in th 'early' dialogues -- the demonstration that a proposed definitin is either too broad or too narrow as, e.g., in the refutation of Cephalus in Bk I
AC wrote: "Just in terms of extension. The idea of morality would include, for Plato, the problem of justice in the political sense, but not vice versa. This is a standard topos in the attempts at definitions in th 'early' dialogues -- the demonstration that a proposed definitin is either too broad or too narrow as, e.g., in the refutation of Cephalus in Bk I "
Hmm.. that seems to make sense, if that is how Plato meant to use it... I can't find much scholarly opinion on this topic and the introductions/notes of books that I have read do not talk of this much though they note that Plato did reinterpret the term in some ways.
... Cephalus was never really refuted when you come to think of it :)
btw, Shorey too seems to be using ‘justice’ throughout... Does the Budé edition use ‘morality’ consistently instead? Or are they used/interchanged as per the interpretation of the editor?
Hmm.. that seems to make sense, if that is how Plato meant to use it... I can't find much scholarly opinion on this topic and the introductions/notes of books that I have read do not talk of this much though they note that Plato did reinterpret the term in some ways.
... Cephalus was never really refuted when you come to think of it :)
btw, Shorey too seems to be using ‘justice’ throughout... Does the Budé edition use ‘morality’ consistently instead? Or are they used/interchanged as per the interpretation of the editor?
AC wrote: "Good review. I do agree with some of it. The best essay on the Republic (by far) is A. Diès' long introduction to the Budé edition. "
I have ordered the Budé edition. I want to read Diès introduction, and the Republic in greek.
I have ordered the Budé edition. I want to read Diès introduction, and the Republic in greek.
Yann wrote: "AC wrote: "Good review. I do agree with some of it. The best essay on the Republic (by far) is A. Diès' long introduction to the Budé edition. "
I have ordered the Budé edition. I want to read Diè..."
Diès also wrote some very important papers, in his Collected Papers - including one on plato's epistemology -- , and did useful introductions to several other Budé Platos.
The best Greek text, however, remains Burnet's OCT; and Shorey's notes to the Loebs (available online) are very valuable.
There is also a translation in French by Leon Robin, you know -- though Shorey (English) and Diès, imo, are better. Of all, Shorey's translation is incomparable. In German, there is Apelt (translation).
Since a translation is only an interpretation of the Greek, one has to consult them all.
I have ordered the Budé edition. I want to read Diè..."
Diès also wrote some very important papers, in his Collected Papers - including one on plato's epistemology -- , and did useful introductions to several other Budé Platos.
The best Greek text, however, remains Burnet's OCT; and Shorey's notes to the Loebs (available online) are very valuable.
There is also a translation in French by Leon Robin, you know -- though Shorey (English) and Diès, imo, are better. Of all, Shorey's translation is incomparable. In German, there is Apelt (translation).
Since a translation is only an interpretation of the Greek, one has to consult them all.
AC wrote: "Yann wrote: "AC wrote: "Good review. I do agree with some of it. The best essay on the Republic (by far) is A. Diès' long introduction to the Budé edition. "
I have ordered the Budé edition. I wan..."
I have read some years ago the french translation made by Georges Leroux in 2002, from the text of John Burnet, Oxford edition (1962).
And yes, a translation is never perfect. Langages are nets throw into reality, meshes rarely match.
I have ordered the Budé edition. I wan..."
I have read some years ago the french translation made by Georges Leroux in 2002, from the text of John Burnet, Oxford edition (1962).
And yes, a translation is never perfect. Langages are nets throw into reality, meshes rarely match.
Yann wrote: "Languages are nets throw into reality, meshes rarely match. "
Poetic! And very apt indeed. Even Eco would be proud of a statement like that.
Poetic! And very apt indeed. Even Eco would be proud of a statement like that.
AC wrote: "Yann wrote: "AC wrote: "Good review. I do agree with some of it. The best essay on the Republic (by far) is A. Diès' long introduction to the Budé edition. "
I have ordered the Budé edition. I wan..."
AC, I cannot find any edition with the Diès intro. Could I trouble you to ask for a scan of the introductory essay? No hurry, if ever you get the time...
I have ordered the Budé edition. I wan..."
AC, I cannot find any edition with the Diès intro. Could I trouble you to ask for a scan of the introductory essay? No hurry, if ever you get the time...
Riku wrote: "Yann wrote: "Languages are nets throw into reality, meshes rarely match. "
Poetic! And very apt indeed. Even Eco would be proud of a statement like that."
I like that sentence, but it's not mine: i picked it up in this book.
FYI, this is the edition with Auguste Diès intro: http://www.lesbelleslettres.com/livre...
Poetic! And very apt indeed. Even Eco would be proud of a statement like that."
I like that sentence, but it's not mine: i picked it up in this book.
FYI, this is the edition with Auguste Diès intro: http://www.lesbelleslettres.com/livre...
Yann wrote: "Riku wrote: "Yann wrote: "Languages are nets throw into reality, meshes rarely match. "
Poetic! And very apt indeed. Even Eco would be proud of a statement like that."
I like that sentence, but i..."
Either way, it was beautiful.
The edition is not available in my country (at least among the online retailers), unfortunately.
Poetic! And very apt indeed. Even Eco would be proud of a statement like that."
I like that sentence, but i..."
Either way, it was beautiful.
The edition is not available in my country (at least among the online retailers), unfortunately.
Riku wrote: "Yann wrote: "Riku wrote: "Yann wrote: "Languages are nets throw into reality, meshes rarely match. "
Poetic! And very apt indeed. Even Eco would be proud of a statement like that."
I like that se..."
You can purchase Budés either from amazon.fr or from the publisher directly. They will ship anywhere, I'm sure
Poetic! And very apt indeed. Even Eco would be proud of a statement like that."
I like that se..."
You can purchase Budés either from amazon.fr or from the publisher directly. They will ship anywhere, I'm sure
Riku wrote: "Yann wrote: "Riku wrote: "Yann wrote: "Languages are nets throw into reality, meshes rarely match. "
Poetic! And very apt indeed. Even Eco would be proud of a statement like that."
I like that se..."
You can purchase Budés either from amazon.fr or from the publisher directly. They will ship anywhere, I'm sure
Poetic! And very apt indeed. Even Eco would be proud of a statement like that."
I like that se..."
You can purchase Budés either from amazon.fr or from the publisher directly. They will ship anywhere, I'm sure
AC wrote: "Riku wrote: "Yann wrote: "Riku wrote: "Yann wrote: "Languages are nets throw into reality, meshes rarely match. "
Poetic! And very apt indeed. Even Eco would be proud of a statement like that."
I..."
Tad too expensive to import books into India. Need to see if some of the better libraries around have done the hard work for me.
Poetic! And very apt indeed. Even Eco would be proud of a statement like that."
I..."
Tad too expensive to import books into India. Need to see if some of the better libraries around have done the hard work for me.
You have a rare talent, Riku, for being scholarly but not dry. This is a wonderful example -- exegesis with no trace of tedium.
Steve wrote: "You have a rare talent, Riku, for being scholarly but not dry. This is a wonderful example -- exegesis with no trace of tedium."
Thanks, Steve! Hope it makes more people turn to Plato. There is no tedium there, not even scholarly pretensions!
Thanks, Steve! Hope it makes more people turn to Plato. There is no tedium there, not even scholarly pretensions!
I enjoyed this review far more than I did The Republic, but normally I'm a huge fan of the Platonic dialogs.
Gregsamsa wrote: "I enjoyed this review far more than I did The Republic, but normally I'm a huge fan of the Platonic dialogs."
Now a 1 star for a classic would automatically require a word or to of explanation wouldn't it? Is it the political assertions that turned you off it? Or was it the basic philosophy.
I ask because I cannot reconcile your 1 star and your overall admiration of the dialogues. As far as I have seen the themes are all feeding into each other and I cannot see the polarity...
Now a 1 star for a classic would automatically require a word or to of explanation wouldn't it? Is it the political assertions that turned you off it? Or was it the basic philosophy.
I ask because I cannot reconcile your 1 star and your overall admiration of the dialogues. As far as I have seen the themes are all feeding into each other and I cannot see the polarity...
My favorite is Phaedrus, second probably Symposium, and to me these had plenty of wit, sex, humor, playfulness, and nearly no fascism. I'm holding off on going into it because I keep telling myself I'm going to go ahead and write reviews for my controversial one-star ratings (Moby-Dick is ahead of it in line). That makes it sound like my quibbles are mostly with content, but it's not; I don't know if it was a matter of translation, but I also just preferred the style of the other dialog series (from a different publisher than my ancient Republic--I'd specify but I'm not at home to check).
I did, however, like his strange rant against poetry and poets, which is largely ignored. Preface to Plato takes it up, and Walter J. Ong does too, somewhere I can't remember, but it's curiously absent from most references to The Republic.
I did, however, like his strange rant against poetry and poets, which is largely ignored. Preface to Plato takes it up, and Walter J. Ong does too, somewhere I can't remember, but it's curiously absent from most references to The Republic.
Oh, I nearly forgot:
Riku wrote: "It is as much fun to read as a Shakespearean drama."
Seriously? As fun as Macbeth?
IMPOSSIBLE!
Riku wrote: "It is as much fun to read as a Shakespearean drama."
Seriously? As fun as Macbeth?
IMPOSSIBLE!
Gregsamsa wrote: "My favorite is Phaedrus, second probably Symposium, and to me these had plenty of wit, sex, humor, playfulness, and nearly no fascism. I'm holding off on going into it because I keep telling mysel..."
As I said in the review, these problems arise only if you read the dialogue as a purely political treatise. But a close look at Plato's reasons for constructing the State makes it clear that it is the soul he is talking about - and all the other dialogues keeps confirming this. It is the good life not the good state that is the primary concern. But, S/P then goes on to say that a good state is also needed (neither necessary nor sufficient - or I am not yet sure) for the individuals to be able to lead a good life.
And, even if treated as a political treatise, it is not really a fascist state since it is explicitly made clear that this s not a real state being described, it is only the outline - the education and the training is what S concentrates on ... and if you read closely, the actual state was constructed by G&A while S sets about modifying it - I will elaborate on this theme more in one more review on the republic I plan to write :)
As I said in the review, these problems arise only if you read the dialogue as a purely political treatise. But a close look at Plato's reasons for constructing the State makes it clear that it is the soul he is talking about - and all the other dialogues keeps confirming this. It is the good life not the good state that is the primary concern. But, S/P then goes on to say that a good state is also needed (neither necessary nor sufficient - or I am not yet sure) for the individuals to be able to lead a good life.
And, even if treated as a political treatise, it is not really a fascist state since it is explicitly made clear that this s not a real state being described, it is only the outline - the education and the training is what S concentrates on ... and if you read closely, the actual state was constructed by G&A while S sets about modifying it - I will elaborate on this theme more in one more review on the republic I plan to write :)
Gregsamsa wrote: "Oh, I nearly forgot:
Riku wrote: "It is as much fun to read as a Shakespearean drama."
Seriously? As fun as Macbeth?
IMPOSSIBLE!"
Well, Macbeth has not been recently read by me, but yeah as much as Othello or Hamlet. The verbal back and forth and the tightness of the ideas made me as excited and high-strung as Shakespeare does... I consider Plato an even greater literary genius than he is a philosopher. (also, I consider Shakespeare an even greater Philosopher than he is a literary genius!)
Riku wrote: "It is as much fun to read as a Shakespearean drama."
Seriously? As fun as Macbeth?
IMPOSSIBLE!"
Well, Macbeth has not been recently read by me, but yeah as much as Othello or Hamlet. The verbal back and forth and the tightness of the ideas made me as excited and high-strung as Shakespeare does... I consider Plato an even greater literary genius than he is a philosopher. (also, I consider Shakespeare an even greater Philosopher than he is a literary genius!)
Hmmm. True, Plato has created one of the great characters in dialogs--but Bruno's Italian dialogs, and his play Candelaio, are also as lively as Plato's--as is Ficino (neo-Plato). MacBeth's no fun, except the drunk/ knocking at the gate scene. Actually, the musicians/clown scene in Othello is more fun, the joke on farting my Navy Viet vets resented that they didn't get in the 70s. But the real Shakesp fun occurs mostly int he plays that don't taught in HS--the women-centered comedies. Of course, there are all those Viagra jokes in R&J, scene 1.
It's been a very long time since I've thought about this-over 40 years-and I enjoyed reading your thoughts. I'll read the thread later because I'm sure you provoked an interesting discussion.
Alan wrote: "Hmmm. True, Plato has created one of the great characters in dialogs--but Bruno's Italian dialogs, and his play Candelaio, are also as lively as Plato's--as is Ficino (neo-Plato). MacBeth's no fu..."
Alan, I know you keep fun as a major criteria. Do you do the same for the tragedies as well? Even when there is no fool present? Or is that why Macbeth was no fun (except for the one scene with a semblance of a fool)?
I need to read Bruno's plays.. could you recommend where to start and which translation?
Do you enjoy Brecht?
Alan, I know you keep fun as a major criteria. Do you do the same for the tragedies as well? Even when there is no fool present? Or is that why Macbeth was no fun (except for the one scene with a semblance of a fool)?
I need to read Bruno's plays.. could you recommend where to start and which translation?
Do you enjoy Brecht?
Gary wrote: "It's been a very long time since I've thought about this-over 40 years-and I enjoyed reading your thoughts. I'll read the thread later because I'm sure you provoked an interesting discussion."
Thanks, Gary! I am glad you found them enjoyable. I will look forward to your comments!
Thanks, Gary! I am glad you found them enjoyable. I will look forward to your comments!
Riku wrote: "Alan wrote: "Hmmm. True, Plato has created one of the great characters in dialogs--but Bruno's Italian dialogs, and his play Candelaio, are also as lively as Plato's--as is Ficino (neo-Plato). Ma..."
Sorry to disappoint that there is only ONE Bruno play, Candelaio, and best trans is mine, coming out this month for workshop performance in London April 4 at the Bridewell Theatre. (Should be available online, a stunning cover, etc.) His only one, but it's long enough to be two. (My daughter in Milan went to a performance that lasted 4 hours; my trans should come to 1.5 hours.) There's another recent trans that captures the full tedium, bec it's by someone with a tin ear for the stage. (I actually had a contract with his publisher, but I use some freeedom with the text--which I learned from my freshman teacher Rolfe Humphries, the Aeneid tanslator--and Ovid, Lucretius, etc)
As for Brecht, I mention him in my Afterword to Cand. GB uses some of B's "distancing" devices, I'd say. Pirandello's more my man than Brecht, though...The riots at the first performance of Six Characters, my idea of drama. Not what Shakespeare aimed at.
Bruno's play, thoroughly updated, could have a title of Viagra and achieve some riots, too; after all, what is the "candle-maker" in the title?
Sorry to disappoint that there is only ONE Bruno play, Candelaio, and best trans is mine, coming out this month for workshop performance in London April 4 at the Bridewell Theatre. (Should be available online, a stunning cover, etc.) His only one, but it's long enough to be two. (My daughter in Milan went to a performance that lasted 4 hours; my trans should come to 1.5 hours.) There's another recent trans that captures the full tedium, bec it's by someone with a tin ear for the stage. (I actually had a contract with his publisher, but I use some freeedom with the text--which I learned from my freshman teacher Rolfe Humphries, the Aeneid tanslator--and Ovid, Lucretius, etc)
As for Brecht, I mention him in my Afterword to Cand. GB uses some of B's "distancing" devices, I'd say. Pirandello's more my man than Brecht, though...The riots at the first performance of Six Characters, my idea of drama. Not what Shakespeare aimed at.
Bruno's play, thoroughly updated, could have a title of Viagra and achieve some riots, too; after all, what is the "candle-maker" in the title?
Alan wrote: "Riku wrote: "Alan wrote: "Hmmm. True, Plato has created one of the great characters in dialogs--but Bruno's Italian dialogs, and his play Candelaio, are also as lively as Plato's--as is Ficino (ne..."
Ha! Alan, I love your modesty. I will try to be your first reviewer here on GR. :)
Ha! Alan, I love your modesty. I will try to be your first reviewer here on GR. :)
Awesome review Riku, but then again I find all of your reviews capture the essence of the books. You touch on so many things that I completely miss in my reviews.