*Soapbox*
Ann Bishop isn't grimdark, its just bad porno.
*/soapbox*

Great to find a list of gritty fantasy that does not include Harry Potter!

The lack of gritty SF disturbs me...

#101: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone??? Do I need to update my definition of grimdark?

What? If that's grimdark, what is Paul Kearney?
Satan mod, level 9,000?
Igor

Harry potter grimdark? thank god no kids read them

Love Grimdark but would love to know if there is any grimdark our there that does not feature a war in any shape or form, just for a change.

Mistborn is High Fantasy. There is a difference, I think.

Ellen wrote: "Love Grimdark but would love to know if there is any grimdark our there that does not feature a war in any shape or form, just for a change."

comes to mind.

Jeremy wrote: "The lack of gritty SF disturbs me..."

Try The Gap series by Stephen Donaldsson (mostly known for his fantasy series about Thomas Covenant), thats pretty gritty and dark :)

For my own part i like the description of grimdark from the original 40 000 Warhammer Universe: http://www.3t-studios.com/grimdark-a-...

"Grimdark consists of two components.

One, grim. This is the nature of the people of the world. In 40K, most people are desperate for survival. They’re neutral in the same way a squat city in Mumbai is neutral; they will do whatever it takes to survive another day in a raging shithole.
Most of the people in power are either psychotic, sociopathic, megalomaniacal, or greedy beyond sanity. Oftentimes, more than one. The more powerful they are, the more massive their character flaws and the collateral damage of their mistakes. (...)
The Good people are antiheroes at best, where the ends almost justify the means, and the villains are horrific beyond belief.

Dark is how much the world itself sucks, and here it is very much suck. The universe is a cold and uncaring place that is so hostile to life it is insane that it even exists let alone thrives, and it will grind you into oblivion without ever noticing you were there. If you do manage to get the attention fo the world, it will only crush you much harder, slower, and more painfully.

Grimdark settings have small heroes who achieve little, vast villains who are often genuinely unstoppable and who always win in the end, and no matter how hard or how well you fight, the uncaring galaxy will never know your name or record your deeds. The greatest good you can accomplish will be undone in days, and often leave things worse than had you tried to do your worst, and when you do your worst, the consequences are cruel beyond belief and very nearly permanent."

You might consider adding some Robin Hobb, Elizabeth Moon, and Kate Elliott to this list. People tend to forget about the important woman authors of this genre.

Katherine Kurtz was also doing grimdark before it was cool.

Removed Harry Potter suggestions from this list: Harry is in my eyes urban fantasy, with good classic hero's and villains. Even if there are some dark motifs, its better suited in a "dark fantasy" list than here

Removed Horus Rising by Dan Abnett from this list. Warhammer 40k is SF not Fantasy in my opinion.

Joy wrote: "You might consider adding some Robin Hobb, Elizabeth Moon, and Kate Elliott to this list. People tend to forget about the important woman authors of this genre."
Not sure which books you are referring to? Robin Hobb is Classic Epic Fantasy? Kate Elliot (not read much of her) is also in the same genre. Elisabeth Moon have some really great books with loads of grit...but in my opinion more Heroic than Grimdark? Paksenarion is a classic Paladin hero?

[redacted by S.H.I.E.L.D.] wrote: "Katherine Kurtz was also doing grimdark before it was cool."

Which books of Kurtz would you reccomend for this list? She's a prolific writer...

Hi Arve,

I think Robin Hobb's Tawny Man series AND Liveship Traders fits in with grimdark. I mean, in Liveship one of the main themes is the unbreakable cycle of childhood sexual abuse. The main characters are all deeply flawed people. Both Tawny Man (and to some extent the rest of the Farseer books) are violent and not at all optimistic. FitzChivalry is kind of a bastard, literally and figuratively. But, it's interesting to figure out where to draw the line between grimdark and dark fantasy. I mean, does the fact that we root for the Starks make Martin less grimdark? That we are happy at Theon Greyjoy's rehabilitation? Some might try to argue that Martin is more like classic epic fantasy, too. Kate Elliott is perhaps less clearly grimdark. Her characters are all very grey and there's a lot of violence, but she's definitely more invested in morality as an author. Also on the argument of Moon...she is a good counterbalance to Abercrombie, whose battle scenes are very individualistic and feature "heroes" while Moon wrote a book that smashed that fantasy convention. You don't get even many grimdarks that bleak, if you remember reading Moon. But, you are the king of this list, so you are free to have it reflect your personal view! Cheers.

Joy wrote: "Hi Arve,

I think Robin Hobb's Tawny Man series AND Liveship Traders fits in with grimdark. I mean, in Liveship one of the main themes is the unbreakable cycle of childhood sexual abuse. The main c..."

Thank you Joy! Your comments are very insightful! I came to realize that my personal understanding of Grimdark mainly revolves around the hero/protagonist in each story. This understanding has evolved from younger years where I enjoyed the writings of Karl E. Wagner very much and his stories about Kane. Kane is not your typical hero, in most of the books the reader’s sympathy would be with the antagonists who are usually “the good guys”. This approach I felt I found new and fresh when I started reading Abercrombie, Lawrence, Hoffman and Morgan. If you look at Moon’s Gird or Paksenarion, I find that they are clearly the “good guys n’ gals” compared to Glockta, Ringil, Jorg or Thomas Cale.

What I realized when reading your comment and thinking about this, was that my view of Grimdark is limited and should include more than just how the hero(s) is portrayed. So Hobb’s Tawny Man/Liveship series should be included for the reasons you mentioned, even if I find the Farseer series more classic epic/heroic fantasy (with Fitz as a coming of age story, not too far removed from Feists Magician).

My main idea with creating this list was to collect books and suggestions that would help find more of the same to read, than to precisely define a sub genre in Fantasy. I don’t think a Goodreader would be disappointed picking up Martin if you enjoy Abercrombie. So hopefully no “King of the Grimdark List” but instead a fellow reader looking to share some suggestions to further reading and picking up more of the same from the community...

Arve wrote: "Joy wrote: "Hi Arve,

I think Robin Hobb's Tawny Man series AND Liveship Traders fits in with grimdark. I mean, in Liveship one of the main themes is the unbreakable cycle of childhood sexual abuse..."

I appreciate your open-minded response! And, it's a cool list. I've already discovered some new things I want to read. Cheers!

I'm not sure I'd count Lord Foul's Bane or Locke Lamora as "grimdark." Mistborn maybe counts, I'm not sure.

Great list. Pleased to see the great Karl Edward Wagner here :) The Godfather of Grimdark.