Talk:Editing/Publish

Visibility

In my experience watching dozens of new editors over their shoulder at various events, the main problem with the traditional editor is that the save button isn't even visible without scrolling. We have many such pages where the main action button or textarea or other isn't visible or reachable unless you already know where to look. Nemo 05:58, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

That's why the new editor has its save/publish button on top, like VE has. Trizek (WMF) (talk) 07:38, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Milestone, and how to add translations

From Whatamidoing (WMF) to translators-l: "I wanted to share a big milestone:

• The upcoming "Publish page" button has reached *100 translations* (not counting English or qqq) https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translations&namespace=8&message=Publishpage
• "Publish changes" has 93 at the moment: https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special%3ATranslations&message=Publishchanges&namespace=8

There ought to be some way to throw confetti in e-mail for achievements like this. Congratulations. You all are awesome.  :-)

If this message is still not translated in a language that you know, then here are two links that might be useful:

• https://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Publishchanges/af
• https://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Publishpage/af

Just change the "af" bit to the language code for your language and edit the resulting page." --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 11:34, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Most recent research

Several people have asked for an example of the research behind this, so I thought I'd post a link to the most recent one here: File:Editing - New Wikitext Editor, Save Publish Findings 2016.12.pdf

This is the same end result that they got in the previous studies (most of which were unfortunately not published beyond offhand comments in the mailing lists or strategy discussions) and very typical for individual user research (for example, using the industry-standard sample size). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:46, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Not a good idea

Sorry, but for Wikis as de:WP with Reviewing pending changes installed, this will not work. Those new editors will feel we make fun of them. The thing, their edits will be published - but then waiting for a review. Maybe the WMF should not work on such unnecessary uniformity, but on really usefull things. Marcus Cyron (talk) 12:48, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi Marcus Cyron,

Thanks for this note. I know that you are an admin at Commons (which means that you know a lot about copyright law), so you might be the best possible person to help me with this. I've been thinking about Flagged Revisions. As you understand, of course, the new version of the article is available to the public (via the edit history or &oldid= links), so it is "published". If someone makes an edit today, and that edit doesn't get reviewed until 2025, then the date of publication is 2017, not 2025. However, if a logged-out user goes to "[[Beispiel]]", then that user won't automatically see the newest version. So it might confuse editors who don't know how Flagged Revisions works. I've had three ideas so far, and I'd like to get your advice on them:

1. Is there a clearer translation that should be used at the German Wikipedia?
   • The translation needs to make sense for both new editors and experienced editors, on all pages (including those without Flagged Revisions). Unfortunately, the software does not permit us to use different labels for different pages or different types of editors.
   • The main meaning is "You are publishing this" (in the legal sense), rather than "This will instantly be shown to everyone reading this page".
2. We could update the Flagged Revisions notice to be bigger or clearer.
3. We could (perhaps) get permission to expand w:de:MediaWiki:Wikimedia-copyrightwarning to say that changes may not be immediately visible to all users.

What do you think? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:50, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I am a German speaker and I can't think of a short wording that conveys the meaning "publish changes in the legal sense, but don't expect to see them appear in the wiki until they have been sighted by another user". I agree with Marcus Cyron, in wikis that use flagged revisions, labeling the button "publish" instead of "save" will do more bad than good and will especially confuse new editors. So if the software is not able to display two different texts depending on whether the user has "Sichterrecht" or not, then I think the best solution is: for those wikis that use flagged revisions, we simply keep the existing name (e.g. on German Wikipedia, "Änderungen speichern"). --Neitram (talk) 14:13, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Or perhaps "Änderungen speichern/veröffentlichen", although this is awkwardly long. --Neitram (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

That is awkwardly long, and it would get worse when they change the button (it will become BIG and bright blue, probably in about a month). What do you think about adding extra explanation elsewhere in the interface? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Maybe „absenden“? --DaB. (talk) 15:13, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I think adding extra explanation elsewhere in the interface would probably not help very much because the label on a button they press is so much more in the user's mind than an explanation elsewhere in the interface. They would still come and complain loudly "I pressed "Änderungen veröffentlichen", so why is my change not published?" --Neitram (talk) 10:07, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Small clarification needed

Do I understand correctly, that the rationale for changing "Zapisz" (i.e. "Save") to "Opublikuj zmiany" (google translation of "Publish changes") in Polish language Wikipedia was done on the basis of this this meticulous and thorough research, in which participated - unquestionably representative for all Wikimedia projects - sample of 5 (FIVE) editors? And of these five editors, three from US, presumably English speakers, one from Uruguay (Spanish?) and one from Scotland (hopefully a Gaellic native, but I am afraid also native English speaker) represent all-languages of Wikimedia projects communities?

Curiously yours--Felis domestica (talk) 14:56, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

PS. I do not want to "publish changes" separately from the main text. I just want to "save" the text I have written/edited. I've been saving texts for the last 20 years, I have published several (in the "real world") and no publisher wanted to publish the changes separately from the main text. But what do I know....--Felis domestica (talk) 14:56, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Not small clarification needed

Zapowiedź dotyczyła zamiany “Save page” na “Publish page”, a nie ma dokładnie takiej zmiany w polskojęzycznym interfejsie. Badanie w żaden sposób nie dotyczyło polskiej wersji językowej. Wprowadzanie jej na pl-wiki jest w żaden sposób nieuzasadnione, żeby nie powiedzieć nieuprawnione. Aktualna dyskusja w pl-Kawiarence wskazuje, że jest bardzo źle odbierana. Czy nie jest to dobry przykład na zniechęcanie edytorów przez kolejne zmiany bez odpowiednich konsultacji ze Społecznością?

Translation:

The announcement concerned the conversion of the "Save page" to the "Publish page", and there is no such change in the Polish interface. The study was in no way related to the Polish language version. Placing it on a pl-wiki is no way unreasonable, not to say uninvited. The current discussion in the pl-Village pump (technical) indicates, that it is very poorly received. Is not that a good example for discouraging editors for subsequent changes without proper consultation with the Community? --Wiklol (talk) 21:32, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Jest taka zmiana! --Wargo (talk) 11:11, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Nie było Zapisz stronę, tylko Zapisz. Znacznie lepsze IMHO byłoby Zapisz zmiany, bo poza utworzeniem nowego artykułu nie publikujemy nowej strony, tylko zapisujemy zmiany na niej. Uważam, że potrzebna jest dyskusja w celu wypracowania konsensusu, a jak się nie da go uzyskać, to wtedy metodą jest głosowanie, a nie jakiś sondaż, w którym nikt z nas nie uczestniczył - dosłownie nikt. Z resztą nigdy nie spotkałem się z jakimikolwiek problemami ze zrozumieniem, co robi przycisk Zapisz. Po co zmieniać? Kto pozmienia wszelkie strony pomocy? Jeśli to bardzo dobrze zrobi płatny pracownik fundacji, to pół biedy, a jak wolontariusze, to Wikipedia jedynie na tym straci. Straci czas i chęci na edytowanie w main. --Wiklol (talk) 17:32, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

FYI

To make things easier for new and old editors of PlWiki, I have changed back the button to "Zapisz" ("Save") - to no small relief of at least part of PlWiki actively editing community.

What is my counter-revolutionary rationale? Well, it is a question of context of language use. I am only moderately qualified, because I've been editing texts in Polish only semi-professionaly for only the last ten years. Therefore if any of previously mentioned five editors (three Americans, an Uruguaian and a Scott, if I remember correctly, including one woman) has any better knowledge of Polish language and usage, I will be happy to discuss the matter with him/her and be persuaded.

Meanwhile... If any Polish computer user, age three or more, tries to use his/her computer (mobile device) using (s)he will encounter:

• Using MS Word or any other MS Office application: "Zapisz" ("Save")
• Using LO Writer or any other LibreOffice application: "Zapisz" ("Save")
• Playing Solitaire: "Zapisz" ("Save")
• Playing Minesweeper: "Zapisz" ("Save")
• Using email: "Wyślij" ("send") or "Zapisz" ("Save")...
• etc.

Therefore, I believe, for most of the Polish people, "Zapisz" ("Save") is quite intuitive to use.

What about "Opublikuj zmiany" ("Publish changes")? Yes, this phrase also has its place in Polish language. To use it, one needs to be 21 (in case of Sejm) or 30 yrs old (in case of Senate) and win the elections to any of the just mentioned houses of Polish Parliament. Then, by voting and ammending any of the existing laws, (s)he would agree to "Opublikowanie zmian" ("Publishing of changes"): namely Dziennik Ustaw (Journal of Laws of the Republic of Poland) would publish changes to an act so-and-so, without publishing the act in its entirety (although this would follow after a while).

The number of Polish MPs is 560, elected every 4 years, so the number of Poles used to "publish changes" is quite limited, and as far as I know, not many of them used to be or are active Wikipedia editors, so their experience in using "Opublikuj zmiany" ("Publish changes") does not help Wikipedia much.

Yours --Felis domestica (talk) 18:25, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

PS. If somebody is not familiar with a concept of "context of language" should read this story aloud (warning: for adult English speakers only):

• 
• 
• 
• 

And then ask yourself the question: should you translate this text to other language using this languages's equivalent of English noun screw? --FD. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Felis domestica (talk) 18:25, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Felis domestica, it sounds like an awkward translation was chosen for Polish.

The problem with "Save" as in Microsoft Office, LibreOffice, and email is that the in-context meaning of "Save" is "put a private copy on my own computer". The goal for this label is much closer to "Wyślij" ("send") in e-mail: "If you click this button, then your changes will be available to the public on the internet forever" (possibly even if the page is deleted by an admin, because some edits get indexed and copied to mirrors quickly). It's also "Publish" as in "Under copyright law, the publication date is as soon as you click this button".

What would you pick to communicate that idea? A word-for-word literal translation is not necessary, but it needs to say something more like "Make this public right now" than "Save (a private copy)". Would just plain "Publish" (without "changes") work better? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:37, 4 April 2017 (UTC)