Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)

Latest comment: 49 minutes ago by PrimeHunter in topic Weird problem with STN Template
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Simple math in template

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This change throws an ugly red error message in the template's page, but it works when the template is actually used. I assume that there is something obvious and simple that I've missed, and I would appreciate diffs to the fixes or other advice.

Secondly, what I'd like to accomplish is a bit more ambitious. I'm open to being told to give it up. But where we have this now:

Village pump
Revenue12345 (in 2023)
Expenses13399 (108.5% of revenue in 2023)

I'd like it to be able to handle currency formatting ("$12,345"). This might require a bot/AWB run to convert all of the manually written |revenue $12.3 million to |revenue=12300000 |currency=$ |revenue-note=<ref>source goes here</ref>, which will then be displayed as $12.3 million[1] to the reader.

I want to highlight overspending in red ("108.5% of revenue" or "8.5% excess") and underspending in green. The usual rule of thumb in non-profit land is that spending 90% of revenue is ideal, and that both overspending and significant underspending are bad. So perhaps <80% is amber or (uncolored), 80–100% is green, and >101% is red.

I also want to introduce a third field, "Reserves" with an Operating reserve ratio calculated from the existing Expenses field. This would highlight <6 months in red, 6–12 months in amber, 12–24 months in green, and >24 in purple. (These are the generally recommended ranges for most non-profit organizations. To put this in context, private colleges with an operating reserve ratio of less than 12 months are at risk of joining the growing list in Category:Defunct universities and colleges in the United States, and if it's <6 months, that could happen soon and with no warning.)

What do you think? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:21, 30 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I fixed the first issue (including issues you didn't know).[1] PrimeHunter (talk) 00:00, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thank you! WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:45, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Either a module or an AWB run will be required for what you want, yes. The AWB run will be easier probably. I thought we had a template that handles currency already though? (Or perhaps we don't and that's what has caused so much grief with {{formatnum:}}). Izno (talk) 06:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't know if we have something that already handles it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:38, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@WhatamIdoing {{Currency}} or {{Format price}}? The currency template converts values written in words to comma or space separated numbers, format price converts numerical inputs to words. 86.23.109.101 (talk) 11:48, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Maybe the first one? If we did an AWB run to change $12,345 into 12345, then having the template wrap it in {{currency}} should restore the human-readable format. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:27, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@WhatamIdoing Rather than doing an AWB run you could use {{Digits}} to strip all the formatting from the input. 86.23.109.101 (talk) 00:02, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Conclave (film)

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I cannot work out what it is about this edit [2] that causes all references to display the error "Lua error in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration at line 2083: attempt to index a boolean value.". Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 16:56, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

I can't reproduce the error now. It seems to be a known bug that occasionally something goes wrong in CS1 rendering and that happens. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Pppery There was a previous discussion about this here: [3]. As best I can tell the issue is that mw.ext.data.get() has an undocumented "feature" in that it can sometimes return false instead of returning the data table? 86.23.109.101 (talk) 18:22, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
This is in the process of being fixed, see Help talk:Citation Style 1#spurious errors when fetching identifier limit data from commons. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Some issues in dark 2022 theme

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Hi. I have been read this page Frank Grillo and see there yellow-white is including in template's background. Please fix it in dark theme. VollyM (talk) 23:00, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Template:Pending is the culprit, it does not support dark theme. Also see Template:Partial/styles.css. Snævar (talk) 01:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
{{Pending}} is working fine for me in dark mode; I see black text on a yellow background in the cell containing "Hard Matter". Please be more specific about the problem description, and maybe post a screen shot. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:46, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I see blue text on a black background for "Hard Matter", in both Vector2010 and Vector2022. Odd. CMD (talk) 02:38, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Jonesey95 black text on yellow background in dark theme.
https://imgur.com/a/oVpwbmR VollyM (talk) 10:10, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I see the same black on yellow that shows in VollyM's screen shot. It looks fine. As for Chipmunkdavis's blue on black, please make sure that you are logged out when you check on the colors. If you are still seeing blue on black, let us know what browser you are using. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:53, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
How do I use dark theme when logged out? CMD (talk) 14:22, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
For me, there is a sidebar on the right side with radio buttons under the header "Color (beta)". If you don't see it, look under the confusing "glasses" icon at the upper right, next to the "Donate" link. For me, an easy way to check how things look when I am not logged in is to open a different web browser (Safari, Brave, Chrome, etc.) than I usually use for editing. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:18, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Chipmunkdavis: Some browsers provide a "private browsing" feature, or similar. In Firefox, right-click a link and select "Open Link in New Private Window". It opens a new instance of the browser and loads the page reached through the right-clicked link, but does not send any cookies. The effect of this is that if the right-clicked link is a Wikimedia page, it's loaded exactly as for a logged-out user - Vector 2022 and all that bother. Important: if you intend to use the "Restore Previous Session" feature when opening Firefox at the start of the next day's netsurfing, make sure that you close the new private window before closing the main window, otherwise, the next time you open Firefox, and use the "Restore Previous Session" feature, it'll restore that private window and not the main one. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:53, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Back on track, this is about the tables in Frank Grillo#Filmography. So you have a table that uses template:pending film and template:pending series, which in turn both use template:pending. Making the background color change with dark mode pretty much requires templatestyles. Adding a templatestyles tag to any of the templates will not work, because it is a part of a table. Adding a templatestyles tag to the page itself would require an edit to all of the pages these template use, is probably a Manual of Style error and is ugly. Other options or bite the bullet and ask for a bot run? Snævar (talk) 14:48, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Also, I am letting someone else fix this. Snævar (talk) 11:23, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

User:Awesome Aasim/xfdvote

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This script I created seems to be drifting more and more and not working on newer formats of XfD pages, and I don't seem to be using it as much, so I want to know if someone might be up for forking the (six) scripts and making it better. It might need a complete rewrite. Thanks. Awesome Aasim 19:05, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

trimming watchlist not working

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So, I realized I have way, way too many things on my watchlist. I spent an hour last night going through it and removing a lot of it, but it when I hit the "remove pages button" it just sits there for a minute and then reloads the list, complete with the same checked items. I'm assuming I was trying to do too much at once, just wondering if anyone knows exactly where the line is as I don't want to waste too much time on this. (I'm aware I could also edit the raw watchlist but that seems even more tedious.) Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 21:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

There's no exact line, no. I would expect most database operations to succeed if you're modifying fewer than 500 things, but if it was less than that you can try stepping it down by some reasonable number. Izno (talk) 22:39, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
When I tried to do it all at once it was for sure well over five hundred items. I clearly haven't done a serious trim since timed watchlisting became a thing however long ago that was, there's old ArbCom cases on there, old afds, at least fifty usernames I blocked for having "poop" in them, and so on. I'll try going a little slower I guess. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I use Special:EditWatchlist/raw. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:49, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yeah for my recent watchlist purge that many people in this thread would know about, I edited my raw watchlist to remove 1,173 pages and had no problem. I thought using the check-box interface would be more tedious and error-prone (also pages that big don't work too well on my setup). I didn't remove inactive/barely active pages/old user pages though. And it took way more than an hour for me; more like seven (I know this because I have a chat log about it).Graham87 (talk) 04:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Also the raw watchlist is ordered a bit weirdly. From personal experience it seems to be ordered alphabetically for pages added to the watchlist before 2017, and then by the date the page was added after then. Graham87 (talk) 04:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I noticed that happening at a time when I had about 24,000 pages in my watchlist. Since I trimmed it to about 16,000 it behaves normally - primary sort is by namespace (main, talk, user, user talk, etc.) secondary sort is alphabetical. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 13:21, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Even my previous watchlist had 3,247 pages on it (but as I said before, a lot of the pages on it now are for all intents and purposes inactive). Graham87 (talk) 14:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Just Step Sideways I'll add a plug for User:Ahecht/Scripts/watchlistcleaner which can help with removing a lot of the cruft. If you use any of the "slow" options, you might need to let it run overnight if you have a 5-figure watchlist page count. --Ahecht (TALK
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15:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's at about five thousand currently, I've managed to clear it out some already but I'd like to remove pretty much all the user/talk pages and start over on that front as half of it is people who were blocked for username violations years ago and most of the other half is "why did I have this person's page watched?" Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 20:37, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
If you're like me, you'll spot somebody doing something dubious, go to their user talk page only to find that somebody else has messaged them three minutes ago, and watch the page anyway in case the situation escalates to the point where stronger action is called for. First user stops misbehaving, then six months later another post appears telling them that a draft they started hasn't been touched and is liable for speedy deletion under WP:G13. You check their contribs, and find that not only did they stop misbehaving, they left entirely. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:42, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
If a change actually pops up when looking at my list, I'll go see if I made any of the last hundred edits, or posted there in the past year, if neither of those is true I unwatch, but that's a very slow way to narrow it down. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 03:08, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Tech News: 2024-49

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MediaWiki message delivery 22:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

patents.com lapsed

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patents.com lapsed and is for sale. Searching for insource:"patents.com" shows 26 pages affected. {Cite patent|...} was not an instant fix for the one I rescued, so I linked to the Google Patent page. -A876 (talk) 01:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

You are looking for WP:URLREQ. Izno (talk) 01:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. I wondered where to look. Wikipedia:Link rot/URL change requests -A876 (talk) 01:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

eparticle action in log?

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Any idea what this log entry is about? It corresponds to https://quarry.wmcloud.org/query/88408. RoySmith (talk) 17:33, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

The former education program extension, which was uninstalled years ago. * Pppery * it has begun... 18:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
They were adding the target article to their course list, in the uninstalled Education Program extension. – Ammarpad (talk) 18:06, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Incorrect robots meta tag on live article

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The article "It's Coming (film)" has a "noindex,nofollow" robots meta tag despite being a live article, not a draft. This is preventing Google indexing. Could someone please help remove this incorrect tag? The article is at It's Coming (film). Thank you. Stan1900 (talk) 21:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

These are being appropriately applied. The page will not be indexed until new page patroller approves it. Izno (talk) 21:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for the information. Could you tell me the typical timeframe for new page patrol review? Also, would resolving the paid editing template discussion help speed up this process? Stan1900 (talk) 21:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Why are you concerned with when Google indexes it? RoySmith (talk) 23:28, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for the response. The article documents a recent release, and I want to ensure that accurate information is properly indexed and visible for readers and contributors seeking details about the film. Any guidance on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated. Stan1900 (talk) 23:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
My guidance would be to concentrate on writing good articles, let the new page patrollers do their jobs, and don't worry about what Google does. RoySmith-Mobile (talk) 13:37, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Stan1900: Be patient. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Transliteration template not accepting some Latin characters

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As seen in Bashkortostan's infobox, {{Transliteration}} is throwing an error at text containing some rarer Latin characters—"transliteration text not Latin script". This example: {{transliteration|ba|Başqortostan Respublikahınıñ Dәwlәt gimnı}}. Does anyone know why this is and if it's intentional? If not, can it be fixed? Ookap (talk) 05:56, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

You did the literal textbook example of that error (on the help page): For example, <text> has Cyrillic shwa (ә; U+04D9) instead of the Latin shwa (ə; U+0259).. * Pppery * it has begun... 07:00, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
You can copy-paste the string to the text area at https://r12a.github.io/uniview/ and click the down arrow to see this. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Determining browser page size

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WP:ARTICLESIZE speaks of "browser page size". How to determine this value in Firefox? ―Mandruss  10:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Mandruss, I assume it means this? — Qwerfjkltalk 10:19, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I wouldn't know exactly what it means; I didn't write it. Based on my limited understanding, I'm guessing it corresponds to the number of bytes downloaded, which should correspond to the file size in one's browser cache, which is aka HTML page size. Regardless of what it means, it's one of the measures of article size deemed significant by the community, and I need to know how to determine it in Firefox. ―Mandruss  10:38, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Mandruss, in much the same way as on chrome. — Qwerfjkltalk 10:41, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. If I were a web developer, that might help. ―Mandruss  10:44, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
WP:ARTICLESIZE mentions "browser page size" once in the lead and never refers to it again. I guess the author just wanted to clarify that the used sizes are something different. I have never seen browser page size used in Wikipedia discussions about size. I suggest you just ignore it. Anyway, in Firefox the "Tools" tab (you may need to press Alt to see the tabs) has "Page info" which includes size, but I'm not sure how it's defined. It's far smaller then the HTML file if you save it. Is it a download size for a compressed version? If I open a HTML file stored on my own computer then Firefox doesn't even show the size field. That makes sense if it's a download size and Firefox didn't download anything. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Neither readable prose size nor wiki markup size is a direct measure of performance impact. So I gather technology advances have rendered performance issues insignificant, at least within technical size limits imposed by the PEIS limit etc. ―Mandruss  12:37, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Mandruss The WP:PEIS limit has nothing to do with browser page size. You could easily have the longest article on Wikipedia with a PEIS of 0 if it had no templates, and I have also seen very short articles that exceed the limit due to multi-level transclusions. As to your second point, I have seen several pages recently that ended up being split because users with high-end computers complained about trouble loading the page (Talk:2024 United States presidential election#Merge of international reactions list is the most recent one I can remember). --Ahecht (TALK
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13:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Very much not rendered insignificant, bloated pages can be a major issue for mobile users. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:25, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Order of operations to get browser size:
1. Tools > Browser Tools > Web Developer tools
2. A thing pops up at the bottom of the screen
3. Select Networking in the tabs of the newly popped up thing
4. Visit the page you wanted to know the size of, or refresh it
5. The size is in the bottom left corner after the number of requests as x kB / x kB transferred. Snævar (talk) 14:08, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thank you. For the current article in question, that yields 4.33 MB / 365.03 kB transferred. As a direct measure of performance impact, I'm guessing the second number is more meaningful. Agree? ―Mandruss  14:20, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think the first number is more meaningful. The difference in the two numbers is just how much your browser has kept since the last visits (technical jargon: browser cache). The latter number is the first number minus this cache size. Snævar (talk) 14:46, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Ok. What would you call that first number in four words or less? ―Mandruss  15:52, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
The first number is the decompressed page size, the second is the amount of data transferred, taking into account compression and cached data. I added instructions at Wikipedia:Article size#Browser page size on getting more objective versions of both numbers that bypass caching and Wikipedia preferences. --Ahecht (TALK
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16:38, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

PEIS on List of public art in the City of London

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I am trying to work out why the post-expand include size is so high on List of public art in the City of London (1,814,737 out of 2,097,152). We are trying to do some work on the table columns, which is not possible, because everything we do exceeeds the PEIS limit. Is there a easy way to work out which templates are causing the most problem? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:51, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

@MSGJ Looks like it's the 400 uses of {{Public art/row}}. Substing them reduces the PEIS by 650kB. Also, {{coord}} has a huge PEIS footprint, which gets double-counted because it's inside {{Public art/row}} and an additional bump because that template wraps it in an {{#if:. Switching them out for {{#invoke:Coordinates|coord}} saves about 200kb, but it breaks {{Maplink}}. --Ahecht (TALK
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16:52, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@MSGJ I've fixed {{Maplink}} so that it no longer breaks when you use {{#invoke:Coordinates|coord}} --Ahecht (TALK
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17:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@MSGJ I also modified the two Navboxes at the bottom to remove about 150kb of WP:PEIS. --Ahecht (TALK
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17:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Template-generated redlinked categories, again

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Once again, Special:WantedCategories has thrown up a handful of redlinked categories that are being smuggled in via templates that have farmed their category generation out to modules that I can't edit, and thus I can't fix the redlinks.

  • Category:FM-Class articles — This got renamed to Category:FM-Class pages a few days ago via a CFR discussion, but the {{Category class}} template is still module-farming the old category rather than the new one. Some, but not all, of the pages also have the new category directly declared on them alongside the redlink being carried in by the template, but the redlink is still present on over 500 talk pages.
  • Category:Wikipedia dual licensed files with invalid licenses — This is being piggybacked by the licensing template on an image, but the template itself doesn't directly contain any text enabling that category. Obviously if this is actually wanted, then it should be created by somebody who knows how to create project categories like that (i.e. not me), but if it's unwanted then it needs to go away.
  • Category:Wikt-lang template errors — Autogenerated on test page Template:Wikt-lang/testcases. Again, should be created if it's actually wanted, but needs to be kiboshed if it's not. If it's actually unwanted, then just fixing the errors on that page won't be enough, and it will need to be made impossible so that it doesn't come back in the future. And, of course, since I don't work with wikt-lang template gnomery, I'm not in a position to determine whether it's wanted or not.

So could somebody with module-editing privileges fix these, and/or create the latter two categories if they're actually wanted? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 15:59, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'll take care of the first item — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:08, 4 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Can someone take a look at the FM-Class articles categories in Category:Wikipedia non-empty soft redirected categories and see if they can be moved to pages without disrupting the wider category structure for each project? Timrollpickering (talk) 17:19, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
The FM-Class one is a textbook example of why people absolutely must consider the broadest implications when there is a proposal to rename categories that are (i) part of a system and (ii) generated by code in templates and modules. That is to say: don't action the cat rename until every template, module and associated page is ready to be suitably amended. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:38, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yes, absolutely. This one took me by surprise. But I will try and get the module reworked later today. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:56, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Special:WantedCategories is now filling up with this mess. Can someone please either apply the module changes ASAP or else reverse the category name changes? Timrollpickering (talk) 12:59, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Module was updated 08:28 today, so hopefully you are seeing some improvements now — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:48, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I see you updated Template:Category class, but overlooked Template:Category class/column and Template:Category class/second row column. I've now updated those and Template:Articles by Quality/up and Template:Articles by Quality/down, but the first of these is still linking to the old category via {{class}} which invokes Module:Class. (E.g. FM links at Category:20th Century Studios articles by quality and Category:FM-Class 20th Century Studios pages.) Perhaps we should instead write a custom line for FM, like you did here[7] for Unassessed. – Fayenatic London 19:59, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Login errors

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My bots are reporting an unusually large number of "Server has reported lag above the configured max_lag value of 5 value after 5 attempt(s)." errors. Is something going on? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:08, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Yes, one of the english wikipedia servers - db1240 is lagging behind at 30 minutes (was 2 hours at 2:00 GMT0), however this has happened several times over the course of last 30 days, resolving itself whithin the hour. Snævar (talk) 02:23, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Not a login error, but been getting a lot of "Wikimedia error" pages over the last 10 minutes.' - The Bushranger One ping only 04:25, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I get this when trying to preview my changes. Brilliant, because it lost what I was working on. Mellk (talk) 04:38, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I could barely post this message, I got system error so many times. Liz Read! Talk! 04:53, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I likewise encountered this around 45 minutes ago.
Request from [my IP] via cp1106.eqiad.wmnet, ATS/9.2.6
Error: 502, Broken pipe at 2024-12-05 04:14:39 GMT JayCubby 05:04, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Downdetector thinks the error is beginning to resolve itself. https://downdetector.com/status/wikipedia/ JayCubby 05:05, 5 December 2024 (UTC) See phab:T381547 for one of the bug reportsReply
Apparently there was a database problem (incident link)? penguinencounter2@enwiki:~/talk/contrib$ 05:09, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
You beat me to it by a minute! JayCubby 05:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
At the incident link it says, "A primary database server for cached data experienced an issue serving requests." For a 2-minute problem I would probably be satisfied with that explanation, but being unable to use any WM site, and nursing an unsaved edit, for 40 minutes (withdrawal symptoms!), I'm left wondering whether anything can be done to try to avoid it happening again. I'm also wondering what the story is with so-called unified login. I was unifiedly logged in to all the wikis, but evidently not to Phabricator, so I couldn't report the problem to Phab (not to mention here at the Pump). Login that is only partly "unified" doesn't seem very unified. How does one report a problem in these circumstances? Nurg (talk) 09:33, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

The mystery of the disappearing I

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So if I add this text it all works fine:

In May 2009,

and this text also works fine:

Weiss announced the opening of Yeshivat Maharat, a new school to train women as Maharat, an acronym for the Hebrew מנהיגה הלכתית רוחנית תורנית

But if I combine these two you get:

In May 2009, Weiss announced the opening of Yeshivat Maharat, a new school to train women as Maharat, an acronym for the Hebrew מנהיגה הלכתית רוחנית תורנית

This displays fine but when you edit this section you can see how the first letter (the "I" from "In May 2009") disappeared in the Wiki Editor. Latest Firefox on Win11, it works fine in Chrome on Win11.

If I, instead of the letter "I" use { then I can still see the right side of it poking out. For a real world example, check out Open Orthodoxy. Polygnotus (talk) 08:01, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Polygnotus. Presumably this section, Open Orthodoxy#Ordination of women? I look at that and I just see the opening word misspelt as "IIn" where you've compensated for an "I" you can't see. This is both in the rendered text and the edit window. As you say you can partially see a character like {, I suspect this is your browser settings. That it's only happening in a paragraph which has Hebrew script in it makes me think it's to do with the right to left rendering of the Hebrew content that is causing your problem. Nthep (talk) 08:17, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Nthep: (excellent name) Exactly. I got rid of the "extra" I and now, to me, it looks like this: https://i.imgur.com/aRmgXjD.png Polygnotus (talk) 08:35, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Now I see the "I" but the "W" from Weiss disappeared. https://i.imgur.com/bXHPWuO.png Polygnotus (talk) 08:12, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

And now both have gone https://i.imgur.com/wnzTVE2.png It is not darkmode and its not ublock origin and its not Tampermonkey. It's also not my scripts. And if I Inspect Element then the problem disappears. Hmmm. Polygnotus (talk) 08:40, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Polygnotus remove or nowiki out the Hebrew template in the paragraph that's giving you problems and see if it is still a problem then. Nthep (talk) 09:44, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't see your particular issue in Firefox with the default editor but right-to-left text can cause different shenanigans in browsers when it's mixed with left-to-right, including that characters are moved and keyboard arrows and Delete/Backspace suddenly move in the opposite direction. If you cannot read right-to-left scripts anyway then consider trying this in your CSS to display them left-to-right without shenanigans:
textarea {unicode-bidi: bidi-override;}
PrimeHunter (talk) 10:29, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
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Hi, for example for Tim Berners-Lee link, and if we have visited this article at least one time:

  1. After we hover our mouse on the link, a window appears containing his image and some text (first sentences of article)
  2. If we hover on the text, the color of text changes to blue.

This happens only if we have visited this article at least one time. This behavior is not reasonable, and no color change is needed in this scenario. Please inspect. Thanks, Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 09:42, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

are you sure you are not accidentally selecting the text in the window, instead of hovering ? —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 16:15, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@TheDJ Yes. I'm sure. After hovering, color changes. But it happens if we have seen the target of link at least one time. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 16:22, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Internal error on move

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I am trying to move Draft:Miss Universe 2025 to Miss Universe 2025 after merging two pages following a cut and paste move, but I am getting an internal error when performing the move. The error is [5478442a-5bc7-4ba5-ac35-eebdbb681267] 2024-12-05 18:54:33: Fatal exception of type "UnexpectedValueException". Can someone take a look at this please? The draft also has a redirect in its deleted history which has some content that should be restored behind a redirect to the article; I can do that part if someone else can get the move to succeed. Thanks. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:57, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Never mind, it worked after a few minutes. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:00, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Inclusions when copy & pasting

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If I copy and paste article content, including superscript numerals for citations, those superscript numerals are not present when I paste the text into another app.

However if the copied text contains a template, like {{citation needed}}, then the text [citation needed]is included in what is copied.

Why don't we style content so that that the latter kind of text is also not included? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:30, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Pigsonthewing I'm not sure what combination of browser/OS/text editor you're using, but when I copy and paste out of Chrome, Edge, or Firefox into Notepad on Windows the superscript numerals are present. We could make references unselectable by adding user-select: none; to the references class, but it doesn't appear that we're currently doing that. --Ahecht (TALK
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21:37, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I used Firefox on Android in the case described, coying from mobile. Using Firefox on Windows 11, I too get the superscript numerals included. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:45, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Pigsonthewing If you want it to work on desktop, you can add the following to your Special:MyPage/common.css:
.mw-parser-output .noprint, .mw-parser-output .reference { user-select: none; }
The .reference covers references, the .noprint covers anything else, such as citation needed tags, that's flagged as non-printable. You could change the latter to .Inline-Template if you want to limit it only to inline templates such as {{citation needed}}. --Ahecht (TALK
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21:57, 5 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thank you. It's not that it's what I want, I wonder why we're not doing that for everybody, by default. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
When you say If I copy and paste article content, including superscript numerals for citations, those superscript numerals are not present when I paste the text into another app. you are probably using the use-Parsoid beta feature. I can reproduce this behavior when a page is generated with Parsoid and can't when I turn it off (compare useparsoid=1 and useparsoid=0), using Firefox for Windows. I believe this stems from how the numbers are included in the text in Parsoid (by CSS content). This should change back to the "old" behavior at some point (WMDE is working on references broadly).
The reason references don't do that today, and our various inline templates probably shouldn't, is probably in the realm of "people understand the content is sourced when you include the footnotes" and has become something of a feature of trust. Especially so for the inline template case. See open task at phab:T284607 which also points to a previous discussion about this topic. Izno (talk) 19:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Weird problem with STN Template

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Sunrise Izumo makes frequent use of the STN template, which is supposed to simplify the creation of links to train station articles. The template does what its supposed to, but it also inserts a link to a discussion about merging the template! Not sure how I should deal with this. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 17:13, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think this update by @Primefac: put a comment in the source code that should be in the talk page? -- Verbarson  talkedits 20:20, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
He says he put it in the source deliberately. See his talk page.
--Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 20:25, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's normal to display a notice in articles using a template which is nominated for discussion. See Template:Tfm#Display on articles. {{STN}} is used in 19,600 articles and often many times in the same article, e.g. 54 in Sunrise Izumo and Karasuma Line. That causes excessive notices. I don't think it's possible for a template to detect it has already been called on the same page so we cannot say "Only display the notice at the first call". Maybe |type=disabled should be used in {{STN}} to never display a notice on articles. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:53, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Now it makes sense. How will we know if we are not told? And the disruption is pretty minimal. -- Verbarson  talkedits 23:20, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
"The service operates in conjunction with the Sunrise Seto service to ‹See TfM›Takamatsu between Tokyo and ‹See TfM›Okayama. The combined 14-car train departs from Tokyo, and stops at ‹See TfM›Yokohama, ‹See TfM›Atami, ‹See TfM›Numazu, ‹See TfM›Fuji, ‹See TfM›Shizuoka, ‹See TfM›Hamamatsu (final evening stop), ‹See TfM›Himeji (first morning stop), and arrives at ‹See TfM›Okayama, where the train splits."
How is that "minimal"? Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 03:12, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
I've disabled the TfM link. Nardog (talk) 05:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
If we want to only display something at the first occurrence of it on a page then what are the options? Would we have to add site-wide JavaScript which hides the other occurrences after loading the page? PrimeHunter (talk) 11:14, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Or just don't put a notice of a technical discussion in a place where it's mostly going to be seen by ordinary Wikipedia users. I don't see how this is "normal." I've been reading and editing Wikipedia for almost 20 years, and this is the first time I've encountered such a thing. I guarantee you that 99% of Wikipedia users will find such a notice annoying and distracting. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 17:31, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Notices concerning discussions about articles can be published at the head of the article; they are visible to all readers, but can be ignored by those not interested in WP processes. They don't disturb the flow of the article. It is hard to see how notices of discussion about templates can be published without inserting something into the flow of the article. Should there be an 'I want to see the nuts and bolts' flag that is normally off, but can be set on manually (or configured permanently as a account preference) to enable/disable such notices? -- Verbarson  talkedits 18:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
This in your CSS will hide tfd notices in mainspace, assuming they all use tfd:
.ns-0 .tfd {display:none;}
We could hide it for IP's and show by default for registered users. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

It could also be off for IP's but on by default for registered users?

Primefac's edit was in accordance with WP:TFDHOW step 1, sixth bullet, except that they appear to have specified |type=tiny instead of |type=inline. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 12:35, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
|type=tiny is an acceptable alternative to |type=inline per Template:Template for discussion#Display on articles. But, as Template:Template for discussion#Which type should be used? goes onto say completely disabling, as Nardog has done, is ok if "the insertion of any template is deemed too detrimental to a large number of articles, or if it breaks markup". Nthep (talk) 13:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Reference numbering

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Hello, there appears to be a problem with the reference numbering in List of Sites of Special Scientific Interest in Cornwall, reference 8 at the end of Note C of the article is given as 142 in the References section. DuncanHill does not see the problem. See Talk:List of Sites of Special Scientific Interest in Cornwall#Reference numbering for conversation on this. Keith D (talk) 12:14, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Shows as 128 for me, current Firefox. ―Mandruss  12:22, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Shows as 97 to me, Firefox 133. Nthep (talk) 13:03, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
We're making progress. Four more replies at this rate will get us down to 8. ;) ―Mandruss  13:50, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
It appears to be a bug in Firefox. When there's a list, inside a <div style="column-width: XXX;"> that splits the contained list into multiple columns, inside a list item, then it seems to get confused about the numbering on some kinds of recalculation (e.g. due to JS adding or deleting a list item) but not others (e.g. JS changing CSS). When it gets confused, any list items in the inner list that are not in the first column seem to use the counter for the outer list rather than the inner one. That explains the different numbering different people see, it depends on how many items in the inner list are in the non-first columns.
Something like this, completely non-MediaWiki, seems enough to show the bug.
<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
    <head></head>
    <body>
        <ol>
            <li>1</li>
            <li>2</li>
            <li>3</li>
            <li>4
                <div style="column-count: 3;">
                    <ol>
                        <li>i1</li>
                        <li>i2</li>
                        <li>i3</li>
                        <li>i4</li>
                        <li>i5</li>
                    </ol>
                </div>
            </li>
            <li>5</li>
        </ol>
        <ul><li onclick="this.remove()">deleteme</li></ul>
    </body>
</html>
Anomie 14:29, 6 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Database of bot tasks

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It would be nice to have a database of bot tasks so that people can easily find which bot does a given task, ideally on toolhub.wikimedia.org. Is there anything better than Wikipedia:Bot activity monitor? Currently the easiest way to discover which bot does what is often to deliberately introduce a minor error so that you can see which bot fixes it, or ask those who hold arcane and obscure knowledge. Polygnotus (talk) 06:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Add new category: articles in mainspace that contain template "Draft article"

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{{AfC submission}} uses Module:AfC submission catcheck so it can list AfC submissions with categories automatically in Category:AfC submissions with categories.

It looks like {{Draft article}} also uses Module:AfC submission catcheck but it does not appear to be listing articles in mainspace that contain {{Draft article}} in a category. Can we do that? I have asked @Tol: to add removing {{Draft article}} from articles in mainspace to TolBots list of tasks. It would be nice if the bot could work from a category, just like the existing task to remove {{Draft categories}} from mainspace articles.

Note that there are currently no articles in mainspace that contain {{Draft article}} but that is because I used AWB to remove it. Thank you, Polygnotus (talk) 06:33, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

How many pages in a given namespace

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How can I know how many pages are in a given namespace, without getting the list of all of them? Ideally via an API. Polygnotus (talk) 07:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Polygnotus: Wikipedia:Database reports/Page count by namespace is updated weekly. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:03, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thank you that is perfect! Polygnotus (talk) 09:05, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

More template-smuggled redlinked categories

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Pursuant to my post above a few days ago, today's run of Special:WantedCategories was a high-casualty trainwreck with 444 entries (more than double the usual, because a normal-sized run is 150-200), with nearly all of the overrun caused by "FM-Class [WikiProject] articles" → "FM-Class [WikiProject] pages" stuff again. Luckily, the majority of these in actual fact turned out to be cases where the redlinked category already wasn't on the page anymore and the jobs queue had just lagged in actually depopulating the redlink, so they were resolvable simply by doing a "null edit category members" run — but there were still a handful that didn't clear out that way because the redlinked old "articles" category is still on some pages:

Also the original Category:FM-Class articles that I raised the other day, which I recreated as a categoryredirect to resolve the redlink, has been vastly reduced in size but still isn't completely empty, as there are still 32 subcategories in it that still have both the "articles" and "pages" forms on them.

Also, there's a small handful of redlinks caused by the move of "Short track speed skaters at the [Year] Winter Olympics" categories to "Short-track", because the module that handles category generation for {{Fooers at the YYYY Winter Olympics category}} doesn't recognize the hyphenated form and is thus generating broken categories instead of "short-track" categories:

So, again, somebody who can edit modules will need to fix that, which again isn't me because I don't have that privilege.

We've had this discussion before, where bots aren't supposed to be handling the moves of template-generated categories, but the maintainer of the bot considered it an excessive imposition on their time to have to check whether each category was template-generated or not before throwing it to the bot, and didn't seem bothered by the fact that it's also an excessive imposition on everybody else's time to have to clean up this redlinked kludge after the fact. So could we maybe institute a new middle-ground rule whereby instead of leaving the old category as a redlink, the bot needs to leave the old form in place as a categoryredirect to the new one, which can then be deleted after it's already been fully emptied out instead of before? Perhaps with a dedicated "category redirects resulting from renaming" tracking category so that people who want to work on that kind of stuff can figure out how to fix any non-empty redirects and delete the emptied ones, and it stops becoming a recurring WantedCategories problem? Bearcat (talk) 18:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Fixed the Olympics batch. * Pppery * it has begun... 18:42, 7 December 2024 (UTC)Reply