Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Qartagir/Userboxes/Fascist

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was: delete. ✗plicit 04:04, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Qartagir/Userboxes/Fascist

Blatant WP:UBCR/WP:NONAZIS violations as open support for fascism/fascist ideologies. See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Gr8opinionater/Userboxes/Italian Fascist. — csc^-1 00:06, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:NAZI. Fascism is too dangerous granted what the term implies. Casspedia (talk) 11:16, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep User:Est. 2021/Userboxes/Fascism since the userbox clarifies the position against Nazism and all racist beliefs. There are many definitions of fascism, and most of them are just a national form of socialism. Nazism is a degeneration and the userbox itself links to WP:NONAZIS. Btw, I also created userboxes about communism and nobody opposed. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 12:14, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I'm one of six editors who was canvassed by Est. 2021 [1][2][3][4][5][6] including all four of us who voted "Keep" at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Gr8opinionater/Userboxes/Italian Fascist. Let me be clear: I do not go to bat for fascists. I only voted "Keep" at that discussion because I feared removal of nazi userboxes would lead to similar challenges toward antifascist viewpoints, a concern that thankfully turned out to be unfounded. Not all ideologies are the same and I support deletion of any and all expressions of fascist and/or nazi beliefs on user pages. –dlthewave ☎ 02:20, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

— Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Dlthewave (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. (diff) –dlthewave ☎ 02:24, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: @Dlthewave: canvassed? I don't even use that userbox, you know I made it on request. I just asked for more opinions, so thanks for commenting anyway, but please stop using 'fascism' and 'nazism' as synonyms since they aren't. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 04:54, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:UBCR and WP:NONAZIS; though I do see some merit to people with repulsive viewpoints tagging themselves as such. And no, fascism is not just a national form of socialism. --Blablubbs|talk 07:14, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: @Blablubbs: I know you can read, there's no need to manipulate my words: "There are many definitions of fascism, and most of them are just a national form of socialism", clearly not all of them. We have an article about that. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 08:01, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Est. 2021: I'm not Dlthewave, and I don't see how that was a manipulation of your words. I didn't accuse you of holding that view, I simply disagreed with the statement that there is scholarly support for that definition. Scholars are in very broad agreement that fascism is not merely a national form of socialism, and that includes those whose definitions you linked to. Most varieties of fascism relied very heavily on anti-socialist rhetoric, usually stipulating that any dividing lines drawn within some "blood"-based nation are inherently bad and framing their brand of totalitarianism as a peaceful, structured alternative to capitalism and socialism (though socialists were by far the preferred target). The few fascist regimes that did materialise were, at most, economically corporatist. They were also genocidal, cruel, repressive and generally abhorrent, and I suggest that those who defend them revisit their history textbooks. --Blablubbs|talk 08:22, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(The ping was fixed after this comment. --Blablubbs|talk 08:27, 3 May 2021 (UTC))[reply]

The preceding comments discussed editors !votes, which is fine, but this is WP:NOTFORUM discussion of the topic itself). ——Serial 08:59, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

@Blablubbs: Your viewpoint is based on renown urban legends, but the history textbooks you mention clearly state that: Mussolini was among the leaders of the Socialist Party, the first fascist manifesto was written by the socialist sindacalist De Ambris, the fascist republic they later founded was named Italian Socialist Republic (then Italian Social Republic on Hitler's request) and their laws about work were clearly socialist, Mussolini's best friend Bombacci was founder of the Italian Communist Party (they were later hanged together and their last words were for socialism), and Argentinian communists salute the fascist Perón as their forefather. I'm not saying they're right, but they're just like nationalist and authoritarian communists from Russia, China, Cuba or elsewhere. Why do we have a category full of communist userboxes then? Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 08:37, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as incompatible with a collegiate editing environment, and indef Est. 2021 for doubling down on their bullshit claims, wolf-whistles to fellow travellers. ——Serial 08:59, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Further suggest that WP:CIR applies to Est. 2021, as they do not seem to understand the difference between a "commercial magazine" and the considered opinion of Ronald J. Granieri. ——Serial 10:03, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Serial Number 54129: Hahaha, using a commercial magazine as historical source, you're so funny. Keep your bullshit and your uncivil language for yourself. The user talked about the link with socialism and I made some examples, that's historiography, why are you crying? Have you looked up the examples I made? Can't you face a civil historical discussion? And you want to indef me for making a point? Hahaha, do whatever you want with these stupid userboxes, but don't dare try selling me your bullshit again. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 09:53, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I dunno, I'd say citing a historian and published author writing for one of the largest and most reputable American newspapers to back up this relatively basic statement is probably fine. I'd go find some others, but we're very much in "out of scope for MfD" territory by now. -- Blablubbs|talk 10:03, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and Indeff per SN54129. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 10:07, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Roxy the dog: Let me understand: I agreed on the fact that exposing fascist or communist userboxes may create a bad environment, but I don't even share these userboxes, so why the hell you want to block me instead of the users who share them? For answering to a comment with examples? Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 10:13, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dont be a Richard all your life. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 10:16, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to inform you, but you're the Richards here. I was just trying to keep the discussion neutral and civil. I don't even care about these userboxes. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 10:23, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment @Roxy the dog, Serial Number 54129, and Est. 2021: Discussions regarding sanctions for the creator are probably best had at the relevant ANI thread. --Blablubbs|talk 10:17, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as violating WP:UBCR (Userboxes must not be inflammatory or substantially divisive.) Thus, debate on the specific definitions of fascism, authoritarianism or communism, or the intentions of the userbox creator, are mostly moot. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:06, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom and others above on grounds of WP:UBCR & WP:NONAZIS violation. No Great Shaker (talk) 13:11, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I am at a loss for civil words. The absolute best-case scenario I can think of is these userboxes are some sort of adolescent sarcasm or edginess. At worst, these people have clearly failed to learn the lessons of the 20th century, and Wikipedia is most definitely not a place for them to attempt to resurrect those ideologies. Hyperion35 (talk) 15:45, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete We're an encyclopedia, not a platform for adolescent edgelord trolling. Grow up. XOR'easter (talk) 15:51, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
hahaha this is hilarious. First of all WP:NONAZIS isn't a policy and is a shitty justification here considering the creator supposedly believes in the non-racist fascism and the essay somehow thinks the only problem with advocating fascism on wiki is due to racism. The primary reason why this infobox in my opinion should be deleted is because regardless of your beliefs on whether being "pro-fascist" is dogwhistling racism; fascism is inherently an ideology that advocates violence in order to resolve disputes. This is incompatible with an editing environment that promotes consensus and discussion to resolve disputes. It's more or less an implicit threat of harm in that it says "I believe in using violence against those who disagree with me". Secondly, userboxes advocating fascism are far more divisive than (almost) any other political ideology due to their association with certain genocidal regimes. Regardless of if the person using the userbox agrees with genocide the infoboxes are still going to be highly divisive.

That being said pretty much everyone here is a hypocrite as I doubt communists would get the same treatment despite having also killed massive amounts of people and being pro political violence. probably because hey, at least it wasn't about race! I'm going to go MfD some commie userboxes and see what happens for this reason. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 02:06, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I stand corrected on at last part. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 07:40, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - No matter how much GF you choose to A here, fascism is inherently "inflammatory or substantially divisive", so this falls afoul of WP:UBCR. Guettarda (talk) 03:20, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Delete if you need an extremist box you're clearly WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia!—blindlynx (talk) 15:43, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:UBCR and support a topic ban for Est. 2021 on userboxes. Delete all userboxes that have the potential to scare away newcomers in this manner. Scorpions13256 (talk) 18:38, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

comment @Scorpions13256: I made hundreds of userboxes (eg. Template:User WP, used on approximately 13,000 pages), and this is the only one ever nominated for deletion, how can you talk of a topic ban of userboxes? This is just a userbox I created on request to replace the already-existing User:UBX/Fascism because there was no statement against racism. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 23:25, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Yes, fascism is an abhorrent ideology. Most of these userboxes explicitly disavow the worst of it in one form or another. I am not for deleting userboxes because you disagree with their political opinions. Delete the Falangist one as it specifically advocates for an ideology that murdered hundreds of thousands of people. The others advocate for abstract ideas that have been applied horrifically throughout history, but these userboxes do not necessarily support that application. Zoozaz1 talk 22:21, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete this userbox, but this is a content forum, and the user is not the subject, even if the user is associated with a repellent idea.
- - The userbox contains a contradictory premise, which is that a moral and effective leader will be able to implement an immoral ideology.

Robert McClenon (talk) 22:47, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - What Chess said, mostly. We need to do away with the extremist political infoboxes. -Indy beetle (talk) 13:24, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete WP:NONAZIS not complicated. Des Vallee (talk) 22:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.