Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of General Caste in Sikhism

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Stifle (talk) 09:51, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

List of General Caste in Sikhism

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Sources do not discuss Forward castes in this context. It is a peculiar list that tries to conflate two subjects that really have very little connection per se. Sitush (talk) 18:53, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 18:56, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 18:56, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 18:57, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sikhism-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Unverified, unreferenced. And if Sitush says the subject doesn't work, I take his word for it. --MelanieN (talk) 02:48, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Biblioworm 04:41, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 19:35, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It seems quite easy to find sources which list and explain Punjabi/Sikh caste structures. Examples in English include:

The topic is therefore notable per WP:LISTN and should be improved rather than deleted per our editing policy. Andrew D. (talk) 19:54, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You are misunderstanding. General Caste means Forward caste, which is a government administrative categorisation in the Indian positive discrimination scheme. That is, this isn't some issue about traditional caste structures in India or elsewhere. - Sitush (talk) 21:17, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that aspect just fine. The sources cover this point and so we're good. Andrew D. (talk) 00:35, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, we are not. Find me some sources that lists the forward castes in Sikhism, a religion that only vaguely acknowledges that caste exists at all. In India, it is a Hindu concept although those of other religious beliefs, including Christians, are tagged with it due to the dominance of that creed. You certainly will not find a government source because there is no list. Furthermore, in past AfDs it has been noted that the lists of non forward castes (assuming we are trying to deduce who is forward by excluding those who are not) are ambiguous and inconsistent, with something over 1200 attempts at clarification by the various government agencies. This is the usual ARS nonsense: I've lost count of the number of times people involved with ARS have tried to rescue this sort of thing and every time it has turned into an argument about clue. And every one of those times it has turned out that they had none. You may be different, of course. - Sitush (talk) 00:58, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I originally closed this article as no consensus (NAC), but was asked to wait for an admin to close. Natg 19 (talk) 02:11, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Caste system in India and write under Sikh. Bladesmulti (talk) 09:52, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That article is 90K and so, per WP:SIZE, should be split rather have more merged into it. Andrew D. (talk) 10:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The proposed target has long been something of a mess but WP:SIZE is a guideline, not policy, and its subject matter is inherently complex and wide in scope. - Sitush (talk) 10:30, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The nomination is not based on any policy or guideline, just your personal opinion that the Sikh community and caste are not connected, which seems quite mistaken. Andrew D. (talk) 10:37, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be more understanding if you could demonstrate some knowledge of the Indian caste system, its relationship to Sikhism and its relationship to the modern legal classification system. We're joining disparate strands here just as sometimes happens with categories. As I said earlier, we need sources that discuss general castes in Sikhism as a topic and I've not yet found any. - Sitush (talk) 10:55, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I provided three good sources above and you have failed to address them. Here's another source which, being fully available online, makes easy reading: Divisions among Sikh Communities in Britain and the Role of Caste System. This is an interesting account of the rivalries between Sikh castes such as the Rajputs, Jats and Ramgarhias and how this persists in their diaspora and causes them to set up separate temples. These castes are the stuff of this list and so we see them confirmed. The author, who seems to have no particular axe to grind, states "Sikh communities ... history cannot be fully understood without reference to the continued operation of the caste system." Q.E.D. Andrew D. (talk) 12:30, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep : the regimental system of the Indian Army today & the British martial races theory was predicated on their existence. Keep but improve, well-referenced & free of trash. It's a socio-political reality despite the theoretical equality of Sikh religion. AshLin (talk) 11:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.