Wikidata:Property proposal/Ordained by

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ordained by

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Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Person

   Not done
Descriptionthe subject has been ordained by
Data typeItem
Domainhuman (Q5)
Allowed valueshuman (Q5)
Example 1François-Xavier Ross (Q3083733) → André-Albert Blais (Q653990)
Example 2Serge Poitras (Q32634) → Marius Paré (Q11880955)
Example 3Terrence Prendergast (Q202685) → Thomas Benjamin Fulton (Q55079014)
Planned useAdd it to Catholic prelates

Motivation

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I would like to add the information on a subject Catholic prelate about which bishop has ordained him as priest. Amqui (talk) 15:16, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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Ah, it was consecrator (P1598) I was thinking of. Isn't that the same thing as this proposal? ArthurPSmith (talk) 18:51, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Consecrator is for bishop, not priest. Amqui (talk) 16:00, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok - but it's essentially the same thing isn't it? Or somehow not? I'm not sure we should be letting detailed religious terminology determine properties here! ArthurPSmith (talk) 18:24, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
 Oppose Use consecrator (P1598) unless somebody can explain how that's not sufficient. ArthurPSmith (talk) 20:25, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
which are both subclasses of ordination (Q7519600). This seems a rather fine (and denomination-specific) distinction - why not just rename the current property to "ordained by" and have it apply to both cases and any others like this? ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:46, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
+1. Anyone know of any reason why we can't use one property for both types? --Yair rand (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This property could be used for Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican churches. In fact, the Infobox Christian leader has two different parameters: ordained_by and consecrated_by. --Gerwoman (talk) 10:42, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Gerwoman: Would "ordained by" be incorrect for any of the relevant groups? Does creating a separate property allow any data that otherwise wouldn't be possible to add? --Yair rand (talk) 21:24, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Is not incorrect Pmt. But in the case of a bishop, he was ordained by N1 as a deacon, ordained by N2 as a presbyter, and ordained by N3 as a bishop. How do you distinguish these 3 persons? What do you think Amqui? --Gerwoman (talk) 18:41, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ping Speltdecca ;). Nomen ad hoc (talk) 15:27, 27 May 2019 (UTC).[reply]

 Support :
priestly ordination in the Roman rite (Q41463697) by Q64086634 : ordinando (Q3885121) (layperson (Q10317028) or deacon (Q161944)) -> Q64088408 (priest (Q42603))
episcopal consecration in the Roman rite (Catholic Church) (Q40092973) by consecrator (P1598)  : Q64089352 (priest (Q42603)) -> consacré (Q64089000) (bishop (Q29182))
Speltdecca (talk) 20:10, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
 Support For countries that one man can (de jure (Q132555)) have multiple religious believes (e.g. Mainland China), consecrator (P1598) can really be a problem, as you can't force that guy to always consecrator (P1598)some_values, but you can force to "this new property"->something. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:32, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nomen ad hoc: Agree. appointed by (P748) should be good as a qualifier of correspondent entry of occupation (P106). The main concept is do NOT create a property by each position that may "nominate" somebody to be prelate (Q725440), priest (Q42603), bishop (Q29182) or cardinal (Q45722).Amadalvarez (talk) 08:36, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This was the original motivation: "I would like to add the information on a subject Catholic prelate about which bishop has ordained him as priest." Priest is not a position but an occupation, as Nomen ad Hoc have just said and you agreed. Could you give some examples in this WD of somebody nominated to an occupation (writer (Q36180), actor (Q33999), astronaut (Q11631), opera singer (Q2865819) are the examples given in the definition of the property)? --Gerwoman (talk) 15:08, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done In view of the opinions expressed, the proposal does not seem to lead to a Property. Open since 186 days, I classify this proposal in not done. —Eihel (talk) 09:55, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't very polite that a user that "strongly oppose" to the property close it as "not done". --Gerwoman (talk) 18:09, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Weak oppose The existing consecrator (P1598) statements should be moved to be qualifiers as suggested above. This would be a better structure, and would open the way to P1598 being renamed to the more generic "ordained by", whilst preserving specificity. There may be advantage in keeping it a separate property from appointed by (P748), to distinguish ordination to a particular level in the church from appointment to a particular parish or see -- it would make the two different sorts of fact easier to distinguish in queries. However, I would be open to the suggestion that creating a new property and deprecating P1598 might be the easiest way to manage the transition. Jheald (talk) 15:53, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jheald: Look Q450675#P793, chronology for pope Francesc. To change P1598 by P748 would homogenize the serie. Amadalvarez (talk) 07:42, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Amadalvarez: My point was that consecrator (P1598) may mean something different to appointed by (P748). As I understand it, consecrator (P1598) means who actually performed the ceremony; appointed by (P748) means who decided the appointment. There's no reason that these would necessarily be the same person. Jheald (talk) 22:56, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jheald: Ah. I understand what you mean. Don't worry, I will not ask for P1598 deletion. Thanks ! Amadalvarez (talk) 07:06, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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