Property talk:P1435

From Wikidata
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Documentation

heritage designation
heritage designation of a cultural or natural site
[create Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here]
Value type “cultural heritage (Q210272), natural heritage (Q386426): This property should use items as value that contain property “subclass of (P279)”. On these, the value for subclass of (P279) should be an item that uses subclass of (P279) with value cultural heritage (Q210272), natural heritage (Q386426) (or a subclass thereof). (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1435#Value type Q210272, Q386426, SPARQL
Item “instance of (P31): Items with this property should also have “instance of (P31)”. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1435#Item P31, search, SPARQL
Item “country (P17): Items with this property should also have “country (P17)”. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1435#Item P17, search, SPARQL
Scope is as main value (Q54828448), as qualifier (Q54828449): the property must be used by specified way only (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1435#Scope, SPARQL
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1435#none of, SPARQL
Citation needed: the property must have at least one reference (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1435#citation needed
Allowed entity types are Wikibase item (Q29934200): the property may only be used on a certain entity type (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1435#Entity types
None of cultural heritage monument in Germany (Q11691318): value must not be any of the specified items.
Replacement property:
Replacement values: (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P1435#none of, SPARQL
Items who don't have location
Items who don't have located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) or location (P276) (Help)
Violations query: SELECT ?item WHERE { ?item wdt:P1435 ?value . FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?item wdt:P131 [] } . FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?item wdt:P276 [] } . } LIMIT 3000
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P1435#Items who don't have location
Without other statement
(Help)
Violations query: SELECT ?item { ?item wdt:P1435 []; wikibase:statements 1. }
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P1435#Without other statement
Value General inventory of cultural heritage (Q3153865) will be automatically replaced to value listed in the general inventory of cultural heritage (Q16739336).
Testing: TODO list
This property is being used by:

fr:Module:Classement, fr:Modèle:Wikidata list/Monument, fr:Modèle:Wikidata list/Monument/Bac à sable, fr:Modèle:Infobox Col, fr:Modèle:Infobox Col/Bac à sable, fr:Modèle:Infobox Lac, fr:Modèle:Infobox Lac/Bac à sable, fr:Modèle:Infobox Salle de spectacle2


Please notify projects that use this property before big changes (renaming, deletion, merge with another property, etc.)

Replaces P31

[edit]

If I understand the usage correctly (from edits from User:Чаховіч_Уладзіслаў), it will replace P31 with the monument status. Is that ok? Michiel1972 (talk) 21:16, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the goal is to replace instance of (P31). It's mosty a bridge is not is monument status. It was discuted on Wikidata talk:WikiProject Cultural heritage#Irksome issues with p31. --Fralambert (talk) 00:38, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Problem at WP Protect Areas, please see Wikidata talk:WikiProject Protected areas/Properties.
--- Jura 07:49, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Patrimoine culturel uniquement ou naturel aussi ?

[edit]

Bonjour,

Je re-pensais à Wiki Loves Earth (WLE) et en regardant le rapport de contraintes, je me rends compte qu'il y a peut-être un abus sur la contrainte « Type de valeur "bien culturel (Q2065736)" ». @Fralambert: est-ce volontaire (on se limite au patrimone culturel et dans ce cas comment indiquer le statut du patrimoine naturel ?) ou est-ce une erreur (et dans ce cas on étend au patrimoine naturel) ? Je dois avouer que je suis dans le doute. Autant sur une église MH, il me semble étrange d'indiquer « MH » comme instance of (P31) (une église est avant tout une église bien avant d'être un MH tant en importance que chronologiquement) mais autant sur un parc ou une réserve naturelle, cela ne me choque pas trop de voir « parc/réserve naturelle » comme instance of (P31) (et surtout si on transfert cette valeur en heritage designation (P1435), je me demande un peu ce que je vais mettre en instance of (P31), « territoire / zone / espace » ?).

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 10:16, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

PS: j'ai nettoyé hier tout les qualifiers de P1435, il n'y a désormais plus de violations de contraintes \o/

En fait pour les réserves naturelles ou parc, il me semble aussi qu'il devrait être inscrit à instance of (P31). Le statut d'un parc est étroitement liée à sa nature. Quel serait le La Mauricie National Park (Q1798539) sans sont statut de national park of Canada (Q1896949)? Un simple territoire publique. Pour ce qui est de WLE, peut-être ceci: Query: tree[142[150][131,17] AND CLAIM[31:(Tree[473972][][279])]] ferait mieux l'affaire? --Fralambert (talk) 19:38, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Désolé Fralambert mais en voyant le résultat de ta requête, je chance complètement d'avis. Pour un « parc naturel / réserve » ça passe encore (encore que…), mais il y a bien plus en patrimoine naturel que juste les parcs et réserves (surtout avec les p*t**** de sites naturels qui en France sont assez souvent tous sauf naturels) ; tout comme une église MH est une église avant d'être un MH, une forêt site naturel est une forêt avant d'être un site naturel.
En plus, cela permettrait d'être cohérent : le statut patrimonial, qu'il soit culturel ou naturel (ou autre chose ou les deux) est toujours indiqué en statut patrimonial.
Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 10:38, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
VIGNERON En fait, j'avais déjà mis les sites naturels en sous-classe de patrimoine de France (Q18013783). Le statut est beaucoup plus proche de heritage site (Quebec) (Q13859551) ou d'un site belge. Une forêt ne peut être classé que pour des raisons légendaires ou pittoresques, qui sont des raisons plus culturel que naturel. Ce qui n'interdit pas un parc ou une réserve d'avoir un statut en patrimoine culturel, comme pour le Last Mountain Lake Migratory Bird Sanctuary (Q18555478) (premier refuge faunique d'Amérique du Nord). --Fralambert (talk) 13:21, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
/me prend un aspirine et essaye de réfléchir…
Fralambert : oui de nombreux « sites naturels » sont plus culturels que naturels (et ce quelque soit le critère : artistique, pittoresque, scientifique, historique, légendaire ou une combinaison des précédents). Il n'empêche que ce sont (très généralement) des espaces naturels où l'artificialisation est limitée au maximum (interdiction de construire et tout les contraintes légales du même genre). Après, cela devient compliqué et on peut ratiociner pendant des heures sur la limite entre nature et culture (notamment sur des sujets de philosophie comme « la nature a-t-elle disparue quand l'homme est apparu ? »). Bref passons et tenons-en nous au concret.
Du coup, comment organiser et structurer tout cela ? Je n'avais pas remarqué mais indiqué patrimoine de France (Q18013783) comme subclass of (P279) de cultural property (Q2065736) me dérange un peu (idem pour heritage site (Quebec) (Q13859551) en subclass of (P279) de Quebec cultural heritage (Q3370013)). Cela sous-entend que tout patrimoine est uniquement culturel. Or même si on compte « largement » et que l’on considère que tout patrimoine naturel est en surplus culturel, il n'est reste pas moins qu'il est double : naturel et culturel et pas uniquement culturel, non ?
As-tu une référence pour « une forêt ne peut être classé que pour des raisons légendaires ou pittoresques » ; je n'ai pas encore trouvé de contre-exemple − il y a assez peu de forêts classées en tant que sites visiblement − mais l'if de Cruguel (Q17716) est classé « tout critère » et Q3287393 est classé en « pittoresque et scientifique ». Ce dernier peut servir de test puis d’exemple d'ailleurs, Fralambert : où indiquerais-tu la protection en tant que zone naturelle d'intérêt écologique, faunistique et floristique (Q16040909) ? en instance of (P31) ? en heritage designation (P1435) ? une autre propriété (à créer ?) ? et trouve-tu « normale/pertinente/utile/convenable » l’affirmation instance of (P31) : protected area (Q473972) ?
/me reprend un aspirine et se dit que pour WLE, il serait peut-être bon de se limiter aux parcs, réserves et (si on a le temps) sites Natura 2000…
Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 09:38, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tanks Multichill for the new constraints, but I am not sure about the addition of located in the administrative territorial entity (P131). Some heritage properties are movable, like boats or paintings, who should be located with location (P276) (ex: Vrai portrait de Marguerite Bourgeoys (Q18573944)) instead of located in the administrative territorial entity (P131). Also a coordinate location (P625) is useless for movable. --Fralambert (talk) 22:47, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: If it is possible maybe we shoud change the constraint to Query: claim[1435 and noclaim[131] and noclaim[276]] instead of Query: claim[1435 and noclaim[131]]. --Fralambert (talk) 23:49, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to be quite a small subset. Just qualify it with the point in time it was true and maybe for boats the usual spot. Multichill (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Registers

[edit]

In some countries, like the US and China, we usually do not say "it is an heritage building", but "it is listed on a register of heritage buildings" (like National Register of Historic Places (Q3719)). How do we handle that ? I am afraid the most logically consistent solution is to create items like "building listed on the National Register of Historic", and change National Register of Historic Places (Q3719) from "sublass of cultural property" to "subclass of register". --Zolo (talk) 08:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think the name should be more "listed on the National Register of Historic Places", since not all the properties are buildings. But I think it is a good idea. --Fralambert (talk) 01:09, 6 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure there is no major difference between “heritage building” and “listed building”. After all, since the Hague Convention of 1954, a cultural property (the physical part of cultural heritage) is − mostly − something listed as such.
Having two items « listed on NRHP » and « NHRP » seems logical to me. It's very similar to listed in the general inventory of cultural heritage (Q16739336)/General inventory of cultural heritage (Q3153865) and not far from Historical Monument (Q916475)-Ministry of Culture of France (Q384602) (and all the services within CRMH/CNMH/STAP/ABF/etc.). Nothing to be afraid of, it's just two metonyms concepts.
Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 12:59, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I've created National Register of Historic Places listed place (Q19558910). National Register of Historic Places (Q3719) and its use now need to be updated. Is there a way to link the two items ? The thing I do not like is mostly that it makes the formatting of Wikipedias transclusions more complicated cmpared to using Q3719 directly.

Constraint artificial object

[edit]
  1. Are they all artificial objects? No natural items that are declared heritage?
  2. There is so much that is an artificial object, that makes the constraint almost useless, not?

@Fralambert: Thanks for notifying me of problems. TimurKirov (talk) 22:10, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I made a little change in the constrain, like it was already apliqued in Mérimée ID (P380). It sould resolve our different. --Fralambert (talk) 23:08, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can we use this property for UNESCO World Heritage Sites?

[edit]

Hi, I'm helping with getting data from UNESCO into Wikidata, and I've noticed that editors so far have been marking World Heritage Sites using instance of (P31) = World Heritage Site (Q9259). Before I go ahead with continuing in the same way, I thought it would be good to check if we should instead be using heritage designation (P1435) = World Heritage Site (Q9259) ? This makes sense to me but not sure if it's in the scope of this property. NavinoEvans (talk) 13:08, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@NavinoEvans: ✓ Done --Fralambert (talk) 23:23, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

geographic location

[edit]

A geographic location is not a geographic object; instead, a geographic object has characteristic (P1552) geographic location. @Fralambert: what exactly is the problem with the constraint that "geographic location" being a quality of geographic object is an issue for you? --Izno (talk) 03:25, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It mostly that the items using thsi property have to be a subclass of geographic location (Q2221906). Il added geographic location in landscape (Q107425), it will probably resolve the problem. --Fralambert (talk) 03:39, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Probably the biggest issue is because of the remnants of the GND type conversion... sigh. That should never have been a thing. :( I'm not sure landscape subclass of location makes sense, but it's better than location subclass of object... --Izno (talk) 03:55, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Monuments not belonging to any official lists

[edit]

Does it make sense to use this property with an item describing monuments that are not listed in any official list (e.g. describing generic "sites/buildings of interest")? Nvitucci (talk) 15:05, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Nvitucci: Probably not but it depends, did you have a specific case in mind ? Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 15:52, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

P1435 and P166

[edit]

I have just discovered American Water Landmark (Q4745361) which apparently does not change in any way that statut of the building. award received (P166) seems more appropriate than heritage designation (P1435) in this case. I has me realize that the distinction between those two properties may not always be clear cut.  – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zolo (talk • contribs).

There is lot of heritage statuses who not offert protection, like National Register of Historic Places listed place (Q19558910) or national historic site of Canada (Q1568567). I looked the criterias of eligibility and I see the structure need to be at least 50 years old ([1]) The think that probably favorise award received (P166) is probably more that it's the award is given by a organisation and not a government. --Fralambert (talk) 15:11, 30 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Fralambert (and in France, listed in the general inventory of cultural heritage (Q16739336) doesn't offer protection either) and in the other hand some protection are given by non-governmental organisation.
In the end, I see no reason not to use heritage designation (P1435) like for other buildings. Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 15:59, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

P1448 vs P1810

[edit]

I know that wee actually use official name (P1448) as a qualifier of heritage designation (P1435), but then I realise yesterday we have also subject named as (P1810), who seem to be more appropriate. Should we move the qualifier from the first to the second? --Fralambert (talk) 01:05, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Either way works for me. Various observations: subject named as (P1810) is intended in part for labels applied in external databases, but heritage registers are not just any old arms-length database; they actually are a set of official designations. On the other hand official name (P1448) has data type monolingual text to capture the "official language" of the "official name", which is troublesome because heritage designations (other than World Heritage) are typically named without reference to any "official language". Perhaps we should use official name (P1448) for heritage registers like World Heritage that do make reference to official languages, while subject named as (P1810) is used for registers like the NRHP that don't have an official language component? (In Puerto Rico, for example, many of the NRHP names are in really bad Spanish, or weird mixtures of English and Spanish. I have no idea how to apply an "official language" to them.) Honestly, I have no personal preference which to use, as long as we do it in a consensus-driven, consistent pattern. For now, I'm going to continue to use official name (P1448), but I don't mean that to foreclose an alternate outcome to this discussion. — Ipoellet (talk) 20:23, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I kind of start this discussion without realising that subject named as (P1810) is not monolingual. Even if I found that the second have a best name, I thing it's more usefull to use official name (P1448), for at least the program in the local wiki can made a selection of language. --Fralambert (talk) 02:16, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Fralambert: After thinking a couple weeks, it seems to me that subject named as (P1810) works better for the U.S. heritage programs: since they name listings with no reference to official languages, a monolingual text qualifier is unnecessary and misleading. For heritage programs that do issue multiple names in different official languages, like World Heritage and (I imagine) Canada's, official name (P1448) used repeatedly for each of the official languages seems to be the better choice. Do you object if I add subject named as (P1810) as an allowed qualifier, so that either can be used depending on program? — Ipoellet (talk) 07:10, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Ipoellet: OK, no problem. You can add it. --Fralambert (talk) 02:08, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Allowed qualifiers - of (P642) vs. part of (P361)

[edit]

@Fralambert:: I felt it better to conduct this discussion on the talk page rather than leave it in revert edit summaries such as here.

Background: In some heritage register programs, one official inscription may consist of a number of subsidiary parts (for example in a World Heritage "serial nomination", or in a "historic district" on the National Register of Historic Places (Q3719)). Those subsidiary parts are widely considered to have heritage status themselves, even though on Wikidata they may be treated as separate entities/items from the umbrella inscription. We (Wikidatians) seem to be addressing this situation by tagging the item for the subsidiary part with the statement heritage designation (P1435):National Register of Historic Places contributing property (Q1129142), then adding a qualifier relating the statement to the umbrella inscription. (Example: See Herbert C. Hoover Building (Q124895), a contributing property in Pennsylvania Avenue National Historic Site (Q7163662).)

Question: In the qualifier under heritage designation (P1435):National Register of Historic Places contributing property (Q1129142), should we use of (P642) or part of (P361) to indicate the item for the umbrella inscription? In other words, which property should be listed and which excluded under allowed qualifiers constraint (Q21510851)?

Discussion: Judging from the discussions at Property talk:P642, the proper use of of (P642) seems in general to be a pretty complex and unsettled issue. In fact, if you go back to the property proposal, there was significant concern about "abuse" of the property. The original motivation for the property was quite narrow, relating to public offices: such as mayor of (P642) village. Although the existing discussions suggest some other uses are appropriate, there's no clear identification of which uses are or are not. However, there does seem to be a consensus that of (P642) should not be used if some other property could also serve the function. part of (P361) is exactly such a property. In addition, part of (P361) has the highly useful inverse property has part(s) (P527), allowing bi-directional linking between the umbrella inscription and its component parts, while of (P642) has no such inverse property. has part(s) (P527) would likely continue to be used even if of (P642) is selected for use in the component item, but it would then lack the symmetrical use of its inverse. For both of these reasons, I support using part of (P361) in preference to of (P642) on the contributing property item. — Ipoellet (talk) 20:01, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

part of (P361) is usefull, but is also best when is not used as a qualifier. The inverse constraint won't be working if you use part of (P361) as a qualifier. Also as a qualifier, it seem more natural to said that your building or place is a National Register of Historic Places contributing property (Q1129142) of (P642) Main Street Historic District. --Fralambert (talk) 23:24, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Although the inverse constraint may not work, it is still useful to use the two properties in an inverse fashion. The software limitations around constraints need not dictate how we actually use the properties. Also, with apologies, "seems more natural" is not a valid line of reasoning - it helps illustrate your thinking, which is useful to communication, but you still need to explain why it is a better/more natural solution. — Ipoellet (talk) 00:43, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I can say that the notion of contributing property not exist in most of the countries. If I take a building like Édifice Price (Q373143), how I can enter that the building is part of Old Quebec (Q2114279) except that put part of (P361) as a property? And if we use 2 differents way to indicate a statement, how the local wiki will illustrate it? --Fralambert (talk) 01:09, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note is not that I favour P642 or P361, it's more that I feel we sould use one or the other as a qualifier. The two properties seem to near from each other to use the two of them. --Fralambert (talk) 02:54, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Point in time as qualifier

[edit]

For Tanworth (Q24661476), I found the site had the heritage status scheduled monument (Q219538) in 1953, but no start or end dates. I used point in time (P585), but it isn't in the constraints. Is there another way this should be done, or should P585 be added as a qualifier? Peter James (talk) 11:09, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I had a similar issue with a delisted building (Lawson Cottage (Q26619825)). The date (and reason) it was delisted is unknown – I've not found a place where Historic England share this information – but I did find a dated planning application from while it was still a Grade II listed building (Q15700834). I've added point in time (P585) as a qualifier. Dave.Dunford (talk) 14:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Groups of listed buildings

[edit]

Constraint error in that Historic England identifier can currently only be attached to one listed building. There are many places in which buildings are listed as a group, but each building may be notable in its own right. I think this can be solved by having a parent and allowing sharing HE identifiers in subsets IF members of those subsets have a "part of" property for the entire group. Rodhullandemu (talk) 16:43, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Rodhullandemu:. The problem is not here, but more in National Heritage List for England number (P1216). Should we delete the distinct-values constraint (Q21502410) from National Heritage List for England number (P1216)? Or adding a separator (P4155) to this constraint? --Fralambert (talk) 02:56, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Fralambert: i don't know enough about properties yet to know the optimum solution, so I'll leave it to you. Thanks. Rodhullandemu (talk) 07:27, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Official name

[edit]

Hi, since official name (P1448) can only be use as a main value, I replaced it by name (P2561). --Fralambert (talk) 01:40, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I readded it since it create 22 000 violation --Fralambert (talk) 02:03, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not an authority control

[edit]

I have removed instance of (P31) = Wikidata property for authority control for cultural heritage (Q18618628).

It should not be in the sub-tree of Wikidata property for an identifier (Q19847637). The values of this property are not cases of a heritage identifier (Q853614), they are heritage classifications. Jheald (talk) 16:02, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

None-of constraint for "cultural heritage monument in Germany"

[edit]

This property's "none-of" contraint includes Q11691318. Is this a mistake? That item would seem like a prime example for a value to be used with this property. If it is not the correct value to be used here for cultural heritage monuments in Germany, then what is? --Zvpunry (talk) 16:32, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Zvpunry: I am surprised too. In addition, I have no idea what else to use for it. In order to find out the intention behind this restriction, it will be easiest to ask the user who added this restriction. --Gymnicus (talk) 14:38, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@CamelCaseNick: Why did you add the restriction that you cannot use the data object cultural heritage monument in Germany (Q11691318) as a value for this property. --Gymnicus (talk) 14:38, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Gymnicus: As this property is for the status of a heritage site and from Germany there is no federal cultural heritage status, there always has to be a more specific item. (examples: cultural heritage monument in Baden-Württemberg (Q50378766), protected cultural heritage monument in Bremen (state) (Q31948690), heritage monument in Saxony (Q19413851), heritage monument in Hamburg (Q28661501), cultural heritage monument in Rhineland-Palatinate (Q84357648)) --CamelCaseNick (talk) 15:10, 10 March 2021 (UTC)also @Zvpunry: CamelCaseNick (talk) 15:12, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Qualifiers for historical significance data

[edit]

The U.S. National Register of Historic Places has several data fields that describe historical significance such as Period of Significance (typically a range of years), Areas of Significance (categories such as Government, Architecture, Industry) and Level of Significance (Local, State, or National). What heritage designation qualifiers, if any, are appropriate for this data? Dzahsh (talk) 17:43, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Use of IDs as a qualifier

[edit]

Scottish heritage items all have an inventory number (P217) qualifier on P1435, being the Historic Environment Scotland ID (P709) for the heritage listing. About 70k English heritage items have P217 values, being the National Heritage List for England number (P1216). These inventory numbers in effect point to the P709 and P1216 main statements.

I'm not sure why we're using inventory number (P217) as a qualifier. Without knowing the collection (P195) value from which the inventory number is taken, the user either has to know what the inventory number means, or else is left in ignorance.

One solution would be to add collection (P195) qualifiers, but this seems like swallowing a spider to catch the fly.

Would anyone have great objections to the use of Historic Environment Scotland ID (P709) and National Heritage List for England number (P1216) as qualifiers instead of inventory number (P217)? (And then for other jurisdictions, their ID.) The advantages are that it is immediately obvious what the ID is, and in most cases the ID will provide a link to the source heritage record. The disadvantage is that heritage items would now have distinct by-territory qualifier values, rather than a one size fits all value.

Ping some usual suspects: @Dave.Dunford: @Vicarage: @Peter James: @Jheald: --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:24, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. Vicarage (talk) 06:44, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]