MARCH 2024 SOUTH AFRICA

LINGERIE
BUYER’S
GUIDE
AND RECEIVING
THE GIFT OF SEX!

Pure seduction

INSIDER:
FRANCIS
COPPOLA
DIRECTOR OF WWW.PLAYBOY.CO.ZA R45.00

THE GODFATHER 20027

9 772517 959409
SHOP THE
RABBIT.

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CONTENTS
12 PICTORIAL
DIANA VAZQUEZ

42 ON THE COVER
MELISA GUN

60 PICTORIAL
VICTORIA SNOOKS

78 PICTORIAL
SAMANTHA PEABODY

ISSUE
No 138 | March 2024

06 SEXUAL FETISHES
Learn more dirty lingo

20 INSIDER: FRANCIS COPPOLA

Director of The Godfather

30 HERITAGE
We revisit the Jan 89 cover

34 PHILOSOPHY OF PLEASURE
Why cigars are awesome!

38 DOPE TUTOR
What is a Cali Sober?

40 DOPE TUTOR
Is it okay to give pot as a present?

52 LINGERIE BUYER’S GUIDE

And receiving the gift of SEX!

56 EROTIC CLOTHING
Let fantasy fuel your sex life!

68 REV. JACKSON FOR PRESIDENT

Preacher and 1984 democratic
candidate

86 20Q: ARMIE HAMMER

On what it was like being Long Ranger

92 HERITAGE
Behind the Cover 1982

42

4
If you think doggy-style
means begging for your din- No, e-stim does not refer to the direct-
ner, you’re in good company. deposit of your stimulus check. But
LI \RX JRW WKDW ZURQJ \RX¶OO ¿QG
Artist Natalie Dupille shares no harsh judgment here—after all,
some very understandable when it comes to “sex words,” there’s
plenty of room for “kinks” in your
misunderstandings perception.

ILLUSTRATIONS BY
NATALIE DUPILLE 6

MARCH 2024
 7

MARCH 2024
8
Santaphilia
WRITTEN BY ILLUSTRATION BY
ANITA LITTLE KATIE BAILIE

If your libidinous mind can imagine it, Anyone who doesn’t think Santa is the ultimate top is lying.
there’s probably already a term for it When you take a closer look, it’s painfully obvious what a
kinky, jolly bastard he is. He’s an older man who tells you to
santaphilia (n) a sexual obsession with sit on his lap and confess your deepest desires, which he’ll
Santa Claus gladly bestow but only if you haven’t been a bad boy or girl.
That is some serious Fifty Shades of Sleigh shit right there.
Clara couldn’t stop herself from staring Santaphilia is a term used to refer to a sexual attraction
at the mall Santa’s belly whenever he let to good old Saint Nick. And, honestly, it makes a lot of
out a hearty laugh. Her santaphilia always sense. Once you subtract the whole “symbol of love and
crept in this time of year. light to children around the world” thing, you have a
sophisticated gentleman who’s generous and well-traveled,
UXQV D VXFFHVVIXO QRQSUR¿W RUJDQL]DWLRQ DQG ORRNV JUHDW LQ
a uniform.
This fetish is more common than one might think. If you
felt a tingle down under while watching the iconic Mean
Girls scene where Regina George and company practically
did a striptease to “Jingle Bell Rock” in their itty-bitty Santa
costumes, then you’re a closet santaphiliac.
For anyone who might be a ho (ho ho) for Santa, know
that it’s a normal impulse. After all, Santa is the ultimate
provider of pleasure—and he doesn’t even ask for anything
in return. He just wants you to be a good person. What’s more
of a turn-on than that?
û © * * j
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13

MARCH 2024
Tell us about the mo- What’s the weird-
ment you found out est beauty tip or trick
you would be featured you’ve picked up? I’ve
in the magazine. What been doing this since I
was your initial reac- was a teenager. When
tion? I was excited. I I get a pimple, I wash
was actually in Colom- my face of course, and
bia shooting when I then squeeze lime juice
was told. into Ponds face mois-
turizer, put it on my
Can you share your fa- turned around and standing there were face, and go to sleep.
vorite shot or spread from the magazine two kids. One was probably like, seven, It reduces and/or removes my pimples.
DQGZK\LWKROGVVSHFLDOVLJQL²FDQFHIRU and the other was maybe twelve. I was
you? Hmm... I think my favorite shot is embarrassed, but super flattered. We If you were stranded on a deserted is-
where I’m kneeling and looking down. It’s took a photo and they walked away hap- land with only one accessory, what
like a food for thought py as can be. would it be? Deodorant lol.
shot.
What’s the best “wardrobe malfunc- What’s your go-to guilty pleasure
When you’re not working, what helps tion” story that you can now laugh snack? Salt and vinegar chips with sour
you decompress and relax? Eating good about? Well, I can honestly say I don’t cream.
food actually lol. I love food and I like lay- think I’ve had one, yet.
ing in bed scrolling through my media What is the absolute worst thing a man
and seeing happy faces. What are some of your biggest dreams can do to completely put you off? Brag
you hope to achieve? Honestly, I am about what he has.
What’s the strangest fan encounter known not only as a model but being
you’ve ever had? Ooof... One year on the well known for doing extravagantly great What advice would you give to aspiring
Fourth of July, I was at the beach in Flori- things and helping people without any- models? Nothing I’d what it seems. Stay
da with my family, when I heard someone thing in return. learning and stay humble. Work will for-
call out my name “Ms Diana Vazquez”! I ever be an attribute babes.

17

MARCH 2024
 19

MARCH 2024
Playboy Interview
Francis Ford Coppola
A candid conversation with the Midas-touch director
of “The Godfather”

INTERVIEW BY WILLIAM MURRAY PHOTOGRAPHY BY CARL IRI

Every year or so, the American movie in- Coppola (pronounced Cope-uh-lah), who as talented as the reviewers say he is. His pre-
dustry comes up with a talented new young made headlines this year by being nominated sent eminence rests largely on having made
GLUHFWRU ZKRVH FXUUHQW ÀLFN LV KDLOHG DV WKH IRU¿YH$FDGHP\$ZDUGV²DQGZLQQLQJWKUHH The Godfather Part II an even bigger artistic
JUHDWHVWHYHUSLHFHRIJRRGVKHXVXDOO\¿QGV of them. In the history of the awards, only the success than the original Godfather, which, in
himself an overnight celebrity, the darling of venerable Walt Disney received more nomi- addition to grossing a staggering R4,950.00
79WDONVKRZVDQGPDJD]LQHSUR¿OHV)HZGH- nations (six) in a single year. Coppola was million, has been acclaimed by most serious
serve such treatment and even fewer manage also named best motion-picture director of the movie critics here and abroad as the great-
to survive it. The latest of Hollywood’s direc- year by the Directors Guild of America. HVW JDQJVWHU SLFWXUH HYHU PDGH )RU WKH ¿UVW
torial darlings is a portly, bearded, fast-talking Unlike most of the other boy geniuses, time in Hollywood history, a sequel to a tre-
36-year-old dynamo named Francis Ford however, Coppola might actually be every bit mendously successful motion picture has sur-

20

MARCH 2024
passed the original in critical estimation and is likely to do the same at Coppola is restoring. Coppola listens to everyone and overlooks noth-
WKHER[RI¿FH ing.
Just three years ago, Coppola was broke and so little in demand that Some people feel this may be his undoing as an artist. Coppola will-
KHZDVUHSRUWHGO\RQO\IRXUWKRU¿IWKRQ3DUDPRXQW¶VOLVWRISRVVLEOH ingly delegates authority and listens to advice, but he clearly feels ca-
candidates to direct what the studio envisaged all along as no more pable of undertaking just about anything interesting that comes his way.
WKDQDELJEXGJHWWKULOOHUWREHFDUYHGRXWRI0DULR3X]R¶VVSUDZOLQJ He has also set up his own distribution company, has acquired a small
best seller. Since The Godfather, Coppola has become the one person legitimate theater, where he plans to produce and direct his own plays
in the movie industry more in demand than Clint Eastwood. “If he took as well as those of others, is wheeling and dealing in real estate and
all the offers now coming his way in any one week,” a studio executive SXEOLVKHVDELZHHNO\PDJD]LQHFDOOHG&LW\WKDWDVSLUHVWRGRIRUWKH6DQ
recently said, “he’d have to work uninterruptedly for the next 50 years Francisco region something of what New York does for its area. He en-
and might get to be rich enough to buy up Fort Knox.” joys a warm home life with his artist wife, Eleanor, and their three small
The wonder is not that Coppola is so young to be in such a posi- children, as well as an active social one with a wide circle of friends and
WLRQEXWWKDWLWORRN+ROO\ZRRGVRORQJWR¿QGRXWDERXWKLP)UDQFLV FURQLHVZKRPKHFDOOV³WKHIDPLO\´7R¿QGRXWPRUHDERXWWKLVDUWLVW
remembers his childhood as an agitated series of crises, with much mogul, PLAYBOY assigned contributor William Murray to track him
VKRXWLQJSDVVLRQDQGWHDUV+LVIDWKHU&DUPLQHZDVDYLUWXRVRÀXW- down on his home grounds and interview him. Murray reports:
ist who played with several leading orchestras, including Arturo Tos- ³*HWWLQJWRVHH)UDQFLV)RUG&RSSRODWKHVHGD\VLVDERXWDVGLI¿FXOW
canini’s celebrated NBC Symphony. Unable to achieve recognition as as setting up a tête-á-tête with the Godfather himself. It took weeks and
a composer, he moved the family back and forth across the country in GR]HQVRIORQJGLVWDQFHSKRQHFDOOV¿OWHUHGWKURXJKWKHXVXDOJXDUG
SXUVXLWRIKLVFDUHHUZKLFKZDV¿QDOO\FDSSHGZLWKDQ2VFDUIRUWKH VFUHHQ RI VHFUHWDULHV DQG VXSHUHI¿FLHQW EXVLQHVV PDQDJHUV EHIRUH D
score of Godfather II. Francis’s older brother, August, a writer, was PHHWLQJZDV¿QDOO\DUUDQJHG
handsome, brilliant and popular with girls; his sister, Talia, an actress ³,¿QDOO\FDXJKWXSZLWK&RSSRODDWKLVKRXVHDOLJKWEOXHWXUQRI
(she played Connie, Michael Corleone’s sister in both Godfathers), WKHFHQWXU\URRPPDQVLRQZLWKDPDJQL¿FHQWYLHZRIWKH*ROGHQ
was the baby of the family. Francis retreated for a while into a fantasy Gate Bridge. The huge rooms are stocked with gadgets, including an
world in which, for hours on end, he played with puppets, watched TV ROGMXNHER[DSOD\HUJUDQGSLDQRKL¿HTXLSPHQWDQGDIXOO\HTXLSSHG
and read comic books. SURMHFWLRQURRP,WZDVH[DFWO\WKHVRUWRISDOD]]R,¶GKDYHHQYLVLRQHG
He aspired to playwrighting but quickly changed his mind when for a self-exiled Hollywood tycoon, but I hadn’t been in the place more
KHVDZKLV¿UVW(LVHQVWHLQ¿OP7HQ'D\V7KDW6KRRNWKH:RUOGDWWKH WKDQ  PLQXWHV EHIRUH , UHDOL]HG WKDW IDU IURP EHLQJ D VHOIDGYHU-
age of 17. “On Monday I was in the theater,” Coppola has said, “and WLVHPHQWIRUSRZHUDQGVXFFHVVHYHU\WKLQJLQWKHKRXVHUHÀHFWHGWKH
RQ7XHVGD\,ZDQWHGWREHD¿OPPDNHU´ highly personal, even eccentric tastes of Francis or Eleanor Coppola.
$W8&/$¶V¿OPVFKRRO&RSSRODZRQWKH6DPXHO*ROGZ\QZULW- ³7KH¿UVWWKLQJ&RSSRODGLGZDVWRPDNHPHDFDSSXFFLQRRQKLV
ing award and at 22 he landed a job as a staff writer with Seven Arts, own espresso machine, imported from Turin. We sat and sipped coffee.
a major production company, where he directed a low-budget horror Everything was moving at such a leisurely pace that I couldn’t imagine
SLFWXUH IRU SURGXFHU 5RJHU &RUPDQ &RSSROD¶V PDVWHU¶VWKHVLV ¿OP DW¿UVWKRZ,¶GHYHUEHDEOHWRJHWDUHDOFRQYHUVDWLRQXQGHUZD\ZLWK
You’re a Big Boy Now, a knockabout farce with a rock score, brought him.
him to the attention of Warner Bros., which signed him to direct a mu- “I needn’t have worried. The minute I switched on my tape record-
VLFDO)LQLDQ¶V5DLQERZ,WÀRSSHG0RVWO\RQKLVRZQ&RSSRODSXWWR- er, Coppola came to life. This was work. First, he corrected the position
JHWKHU7KH5DLQ3HRSOHD¿OPKHZURWHDQGGLUHFWHGDERXWDSUHJQDQW RIWKHPDFKLQHWKHQKH¿GGOHGZLWKWKHYROXPHDQGWRQHFRQWUROVXQWLO
woman who leaves her husband, despite the fact that she loves him, he had them set to his satisfaction. Finally, he allowed me to question
because she doesn’t want to be married anymore. The movie antedated him. All you have to do with Coppola is get him going. After that, the
women’s lib and is now considered to have been ahead of its period, a problem is slowing him down, much less stopping him; I got the feel-
polite way of saying that it didn’t make much money. But by that time, ing he could have been a tremendous politician or an eloquent preacher.
Coppola had also co-authored the screenplay of Patton, for which he :HWDONHGIRUVHYHUDOKRXUVWKDW¿UVWGD\WKHQFRQWLQXHGWKHQH[WWZR
won an Oscar. He was barely 28 and the odds were he’d make it big, if GD\VDWKLVRI¿FH
he just stuck around long enough. ³2XU¿QDOVHVVLRQZDVKHOGDWKLVKRPH&RSSRODZHDULQJDQ$UDE
By 1969, however, Coppola had had enough of Hollywood’s cha- caftan that failed to conceal his bulk, ushered me into one of the Bay
RWLF¿QDQFLQJPHWKRGVDQWLTXDWHGSURGXFWLRQWHFKQLTXHVDQGULJLGO\ Area’s largest backyards, where a Moorish-style pool is heated to body
entrenched craft unions. He talked Warner’s into letting him set up his WHPSHUDWXUH+HOHDSHGLQWRWKHZDWHUDQGIRUWKHQH[W¿YHPLQXWHVKH
own production company, American Zoetrope, and moved to San Fran- moaned—very loudly. What if the neighbors complain? he was asked.
cisco, where he proposed to turn out high-quality, low-budget features. ‘It’s my pool,’ he answered, ‘and I’ll moan if I like.’ Sipping a cup of
7KHFRPSDQ\¶V¿UVWSURMHFW7+;DIXWXULVWLFVFULSWGLUHFWHGE\ espresso while standing in the water, he added: ‘Y’know, I like this. It’s
his friend George Lucas that has since become a cult classic, all but my idea of real decadence.’
sank it. Warner’s canceled its contract, leaving Coppola stranded under “Back in the living room, Coppola, his robe billowing about him,
a mountain of debts, from which he quickly extricated himself with pirouetted, gavotted and jigged without a trace of self-consciousness
The Godfather, followed not only by Godfather II but by its rival for to a record of carnival music that he’d brought back from Rio, where
best-picture honors in the 1974 Oscars competition, The Conversation. he’d gone to unwind for a couple of weeks. Then, I think, I saw the
Today, Coppola’s only worry is deciding what to do next. He has key to Coppola: He throws himself completely into everything he does,
enough money to indulge himself and he has a number of projects that whether it’s work or play. The man is a block of pure energy, with the
have been sitting on his desk and/or maturing in his head for years. powers of concentration of a leopard stalking prey. If anyone can pull
In addition to Lucas, whom he prodded into writing and directing the RIIZKDWKHSURSRVHVWRGRWRWKH¿OPEXVLQHVV,¶PFRQYLQFHGKHFDQ
HQRUPRXVO\ VXFFHVVIXO$PHULFDQ *UDI¿WL²ZKLFK KH SURGXFHG DIWHU and I came away hoping he’d succeed.”
the script had been rejected by 11 studios—Coppola has gathered COPPOLA: This is my last interview.
around him in San Francisco a small army of young, supremely tal- PLAYBOY: Why?
ented individualists. They swarm in and out of the Coppola Company COPPOLA: I decided recently that enough is enough. Basically,
KHDGTXDUWHUV DQ ROG HLJKWVWRU\ 6DQ )UDQFLVFR RI¿FH EXLOGLQJ WKDW there’s only one story I can tell and I’ve told it. I think it’s time I kind

21

MARCH 2024
of go on my way out of respect for the public. liked so much because her vagina was enormous—remember that stuff
PLAYBOY: All right, let’s start with your recent Oscar haul for Godfa- in the book? It never showed up in the movie. Anyway, I said, “My
ther II. How did it feel to walk away with so many awards? God, what is this? The Carpetbaggers?” So I stopped reading it and
COPPOLA: Two years ago, I went to the Academy Awards ceremo- said, “Forget it.”
nies feeling blasé, not caring. I thought Godfather I would win most of )RXURU¿YHPRQWKVODWHU,ZDVDJDLQRIIHUHGWKHRSSRUWXQLW\WR
the awards, but how important was the Oscar, anyway? Then it became ZRUNRQLWDQGE\WKDWWLPH,ZDVLQGLUH¿QDQFLDOVWUDLWVZLWKP\RZQ
clear that Cabaret was running away with the awards, and I suddenly company in San Francisco, so I read further. Then I got into what the
started wanting to win desperately. When I didn’t, I got very depressed. book is really about—the story of the family, this father and his sons,
,¿JXUHG,¶GQHYHUPDNHDQRWKHU¿OPWKDWZRXOGZLQDQ2VFDU,ZDV DQGTXHVWLRQVRISRZHUDQGVXFFHVVLRQ²DQG,WKRXJKWLWZDVDWHUUL¿F
JRLQJWRJRRIIDQGPDNHVPDOOSHUVRQDO¿OPVWKHNLQGWKDWUDUHO\ZLQ story, if you could cut out all the other stuff. I decided it could be not
awards. I had wanted to leave a winner. only a successful movie but also a good movie. I wanted to concentrate
This year, I thought Chinatown would clean up. I had two pictures on the central theme, and that’s what I tried to do.
QRPLQDWHG²*RGIDWKHU ,, DQG 7KH &RQYHUVDWLRQ²DQG , ¿JXUHG WKDW So the fact is, it wasn’t a piece of trash. Like me, Mario went after
would split my vote. I was intrigued with the idea of losing twice after WKHPRQH\DW¿UVW+H¶VYHU\IUDQNDERXWWKDW%XWLIWKHWZRPRYLHVDUH
coming so close, which might be a record in itself. So when it all hap- strong, it’s because of what Mario originally put in his book that was
pened, I was so elated I didn’t know what to do. I never expected Best strong and valid. Mario himself, by the way, doesn’t think The Godfa-
Picture. I felt Godfather II was too demanding, too complex. But when ther is his best book, but it’s the only one of his novels that sold really
it won, I felt the members were telling me they appreciated the fact that well. I have great respect for Mario. He created the story, he created the
ZH¶GWULHGWRPDNHD¿OPZLWKLQWHJULW\ characters, even in Part II, which I wrote more of than Part I. But all the
PLAYBOY: What did you think when Bert Schneider, the producer of key elements go back to his book.
the antiwar documentary Hearts and Minds, read a telegram from a Viet PLAYBOY: Did you work together on the screenplays?
Cong representative? COPPOLA: Never. I would do the
COPPOLA: Many people voted for ¿UVW GUDIW DQG VHQG LW WR KLP DQG KH
Hearts and Minds as best documen- would make corrections and rewrite
WDU\QRWEHFDXVHLWZDVDJUHDW¿OP² "The idea of a sequel and change anything he wanted to
it wasn’t, particularly—but because and send it back to me, and then I’d
RI ZKDW WKH ¿OP VDLG$QG VR ZKHQ
Schneider accepted the award, it was
seemed horrible to me. rework it again, and it went back and
forth. We work in totally different
certainly appropriate for him to com-
PHQWRQZKDWWKH¿OPZDVVD\LQJ,W
I used to joke that the ZD\V +H¶V PXFK OD]LHU WKDQ , DP
which I think he’d admit. What we
wasn’t as if they were giving him an
award as best tap dancer only to have
only way I’d do it was if mainly have in common is that we
both like to play baccarat and shoot
him turn around and give a political
speech. The academy was sanction- WKH\¶GOHWPH¿OPµ$E- dice. I like Mario very much.
PLAYBOY: Since you weren’t a
ing that documentary, was rewarding famous director at the time, why did
it for the message it conveyed. So bot and Costello Meet Paramount approach you about mak-
his statement was really a response LQJWKH¿OP"
to that.
PLAYBOY: The incident caused
the Godfather’—that COPPOLA: The book hadn’t yet
made an impression. A lot of direc-
quite an uproar. How did you person-
ally feel about it?
would have been fun." tors, including Richard Brooks and
Costa-Gavras, had already turned it
COPPOLA: Imagine, in 1975, get- down. At that time, I had an interest-
ting a telegram from a so-called ene- ing reputation as a director who could
my extending friendship to the American people. I mean, after what we PDNHD¿OPHFRQRPLFDOO\$OVR,ZDVDZULWHUDQG,ZDV,WDOLDQVR,
did to the Vietnamese people, you’d think they wouldn’t forgive us for seemed like an intelligent shot.
300 years! Getting this positive, human, optimistic message was such PLAYBOY: Had you heard about The Godfather before reading it and
a beautiful idea to me—it was overwhelming. If the telegram had said, hating it?
“You Yankee dogs have been killing us for 30 years and now we’ve COPPOLA: Yes, and it’s a strange story. One Sunday afternoon, I
got you, so screw you!” I wouldn’t have read it. But it didn’t say that. was sitting around my home in San Francisco, reading The New York
As for the uproar caused by Frank Sinatra’s reading the disclaimer Times, and I saw an ad for a new book. Couldn’t tell what it was about
expressing his and Bob Hope’s reactions, well, men at that point in their from the book cover—it looked kind of solemn. I thought it might be
lives can’t understand what a message like that really means. They’re DQLQWHOOHFWXDOZRUNE\VRPHQHZ,WDOLDQDXWKRUQDPHG0DULR3X]RVR
not interested in the truth; they still think all Communists are bad, less I clipped the ad. I was just going to inquire about it. Right then, Peter
than human. When people are against something, they don’t even lis- Bart, a friend of mine, came by with someone I’d never met before: Al
ten. Ruddy, who later became producer of The Godfather but at that time
PLAYBOY: Your career as a director has been made by the two Godfa- had nothing to do with the project. We started talking and Peter men-
WKHUPRYLHVDQGPRVWRIWKHFULWLFVVHHPWRKDYHUHFRJQL]HGZKDW\RX WLRQHGDERRNKH¶GMXVWKHDUGDERXW7KH*RGIDWKHUE\0DULR3X]R+H
were trying to do with them, but none has had a kind word for the novel H[SODLQHGZKDWLWZDVDERXW,KDGQRLQWHUHVWLQ¿OPLQJDEHVWVHOOHUVR
QRUIRULWVDXWKRU0DULR3X]R7KH1HZ<RUNHU¶V3DXOLQH.DHOLQIDFW I said, “No kidding—I just noticed an ad for it.” At that very moment,
FDOOVWKHERRNWUDVK&RXOG\RXKDYHPDGHWZR¿QHPRYLHVRXWRIWUDVK" the phone rang. It was Marlon Brando. I’d contacted him to ask if I
COPPOLA::KHQ,ZDV¿UVWRIIHUHGWKHSURMHFW,VWDUWHGWRUHDGWKH might send by the script of The Conversation, which I’d written with
book and I got only about 50 pages into it. I thought it was a popular, him in mind. He was just calling to say, “Sure, send the script over.”
sensational novel, pretty cheap stuff. I got to the part about the singer That all happened in one afternoon. Several months later, Al Ruddy
supposedly modeled on Frank Sinatra and the girl Sonny Corleone ZDVQDPHGSURGXFHURI7KH*RGIDWKHU,UHFHLYHGP\¿UVWRIIHUWRGL-
rect it and Marlon Brando would shortly have the lead. It still seems COPPOLA: I got a video recorder from some friends and showed up
EL]DUUHWRPHWKDWWKHYDULRXVHOHPHQWVFDPHWRJHWKHUWKDWGD\LQP\ at Brando’s house the next morning with a photographer and an Italian
home. barber I’d already picked for the role of Bonasera, the undertaker in
PLAYBOY:2QFH\RX¶GGHFLGHGWRGLUHFWWKH¿OPKRZGLG\RXJHW WKH¿OP,¶GGUHVVHGKLPLQDEODFNVXLWDQGDVNHGKLPWRPHPRUL]H
Brando for the title role? the speech at the beginning of the movie, where Bonasera asks the
COPPOLA: I must have interviewed 2,000 people. We video-taped Godfather for a favor. But I kept him outside. Brando met us in his
every old Italian actor in existence. But it became apparent that the living room, wearing a Japanese kimono, hair tied back in a ponytail. I
role called for an actor of such magnetism, such charisma, just walking just started video-taping him. He began to slide into character. He took
into a room had to be an event. We concluded that if an Italian actor some shoe polish and put it in his hair. His speech changed: “You t’ink
had gotten to be 70 years old without becoming famous on his own, he I need a mustache?” I was anxious to make an intelligent comment,
wouldn’t have the air of authority we needed. Robert Evans, who was so I said, “Oh, yeah, my Uncle Louis has a mustache.” He dabbed
in charge of production at Paramount, wanted Carlo Ponti, which was on a phony mustache and, as I video-taped him, he reached for some
an interesting idea: Get someone already important in life, that sort of Kleenex. “I want to be like bulldog,” he mumbled, and stuffed wads
WKLQNLQJ%XWZH¿QDOO\¿JXUHGWKDWZKDWZHKDGWRGRZDVKLUHWKH RILWLQWRKLVPRXWK+HNHSWWDONLQJWRKLPVHOIPXPEOLQJDQG¿QDOO\
best actor in the world. It was that simple. It boiled down to Laurence said, “I just wanna improvise.” I told my guys to keep quiet; I’d heard
Olivier or Marlon Brando, who are the greatest actors in the world. that noise bothers him. He always wears earplugs when he’s working.
:HZHQWEDFNDQGIRUWKRQLWDQG,¿QDOO\FDOOHG0DULRWRDVNKLP Then, without warning, I ushered in my barber friend, who went up
He told me that, ironically enough, he’d been thinking of Brando as to Brando and launched right into his speech. Brando didn’t know what
the Godfather all along and had, in fact, written him a letter to that ef- was going on for a moment, but he listened and then just started doing
fect over two years before. Brando seemed too young, even to me, but the scene. It was my shot. The thing worked, I had it down on tape. I’d
sometimes when you go out on a limb and connect with someone— ZDWFKHG\HDUROG0DUORQ%UDQGRWXUQLQWRWKLVDJLQJ0D¿DFKLHI
Mario, in this case—you say, “It’s God signaling me.” So we narrowed It was fantastic.
it down to Brando. He had turned down the role in The Conversation Later, when I showed the tape to Evans and Jaffe, their reaction—
some months earlier, but after he’d had a chance to read The Godfather, and this is where I give them credit—was instantaneous. They both
he called back and said he was interested, that he thought it was a deli- said he was great.
cious part—he used that word, delicious. PLAYBOY: How was it, working with Brando?
PLAYBOY: Were the studio moguls pleased? COPPOLA: Well, we all wanted to impress Brando with the fact that
COPPOLA:+HOOQR5XGG\OLNHG%UDQGREXWKHVDLGÀDWO\WKDWWKH each of us was special in some way or other. Jimmy Caan was always
studio heads would never buy it. We got in touch with Evans, pitched trying to make him laugh, Al Pacino would be moody and try to im-
Brando and listened to him yell at us for being fools. By now, the book press him with his intensity, and when Marlon would sit down to talk
was becoming more and more successful, and it was outstripping me about Indians or politics, Duvall would sit behind him and do Brando
in terms of my potency as a director. It was getting bigger than I was. imitations. I got along very well with Marlon. One of the most affec-
And they were starting to wonder if they hadn’t made a big mistake in tionate, warm men I’ve ever known. He’d come in late once in a while,
choosing me as the director. but he’d make up for it with his sense of humor.
Time passed, the book got bigger, the budget increased and I re- PLAYBOY: What’s an example of his sense of humor?
fused to send them any new casting ideas. Besides Brando, I already COPPOLA: Besides “mooning” actors on the set? Well, there’s this
had it in my mind that I wanted Al Pacino, Jimmy Caan, Bobby Duvall scene in Godfather I where they’ve brought Brando home from the
and so on. So a big meeting was scheduled with Evans, Stanley Jaffe, hospital, and the orderlies are supposed to carry him up the stairs in a
who was then the young president of the studio, and assorted lawyers. stretcher. The actors couldn’t manage it, so I asked a couple of mus-
Halfway into the meeting, I made another pitch for Brando. Jaffe FOHERXQGJX\VRQWKHVHW²UHDOSK\VLFDO¿WQHVVW\SHV²WRGRLW7KH\
replied, and these are his exact words, “As president of Paramount Pic- bragged that it would be no problem for them; so while they were off
tures, I assure you that Marlon Brando will never appear in this motion being costumed and made up, Brando got the other guys to load the
picture and, furthermore, as president of the company, I will no longer stretcher with 1,000 pounds of lead weights. So these two guys swag-
allow you to discuss it.” Boom. Final. Maybe from his point of view, ger out, pick up the weighted stretcher with Brando on it—and don’t
at that time, it made sense. Paramount, before Love Story, had made let on that they can hardly lift the thing. Well, about four steps up, they
DQXPEHURIÀRSV$QG%UDQGR¶VWUDFNUHFRUGZDVHYHQZRUVH%XW, both yell, “Jee-sus, does he weigh a ton!” and they drop the stretcher,
LQVLVWHGWKH\KHDUPHRXWDQG(YDQVSHUVXDGHG-DIIHWRJLYHPH¿YH which breaks up everybody on the set. That sort of thing went on all
minutes. I stood up as if I were a lawyer pleading for someone’s life the time.
and went through all the reasons I thought only Brando could play the PLAYBOY: Was it all as much fun as that?
SDUW$IWHU,¶G¿QLVKHG,SUHWHQGHGWRFROODSVHLQDKHDSRQWKHÀRRU COPPOLA: No, that’s hindsight. If you’d checked with the crew
6R -DIIH ¿QDOO\ UHOHQWHG EXW KH JDYH PH FHUWDLQ FRQGLWLRQV WKH ZKLOHZHZHUH¿OPLQJWKH\¶GKDYHVDLG7KH*RGIDWKHUZDVJRLQJWR
main one being that Brando take a screen test. I’d won. Now all I had be the biggest disaster of all time. The French Connection came out
WR¿JXUHZDVKRZWRJHW0DUORQ%UDQGRWRWDNHDVFUHHQWHVW ZKLOHZHZHUH¿OPLQJDQGSHRSOHZKR¶GVHHQWKH¿OPDQGZKRVDZ
PLAYBOY: How did you? WKH*RGIDWKHUUXVKHVLPSOLHGWKDWRXU¿OPZDVERULQJE\FRPSDULVRQ
COPPOLA::HOO\RXKDYHWRUHDOL]HWKDWGHVSLWHRXUWHOHSKRQHFRQ- 7KHUHZHUHUXPRUVWKDW,ZDVJRLQJWREH¿UHGHYHU\GD\,ZDVWU\LQJ
versation, I was still scared shitless of Brando. So I called him and said to save money during that time, sacking out on Jimmy Caan’s couch.
I wanted to explore the role with him. At which point he jumped in and A bad period for me. I couldn’t get to sleep at night. When I did, I had
said he wasn’t entirely sure he could play the role, and if he couldn’t, QLJKWPDUHV RI VHHLQJ (OLD .D]DQ ZDON RQWR WKH VHW FRPH XS WR PH
he shouldn’t, so why not get together and try it out? Wonderful, I said, and say, “Uh, Francis, I’ve been asked to….” But Marlon was a great
let’s videotape it. Fine, he said. help. When I mentioned the threatening noises, he told me he wouldn’t
PLAYBOY: So he never really agreed to take the screen test? FRQWLQXHWKHSLFWXUHLI,JRW¿UHG
COPPOLA: No. But he’s a fantastic guy, so I’m sure if I’d been up PLAYBOY: Were you given your head by the studio, were you al-
front with him and told him the spot I was in, he’d have done it. lowed to improvise or did you have to stick faithfully to the script?
PLAYBOY: How did the non–screen test go? COPPOLA: I wasn’t given my head, by any means. A lot of the en

23

MARCH 2024
HUJ\WKDWZHQWLQWRWKH¿OPZHQWLQWRVLPSO\WU\LQJWRFRQYLQFHWKH was exhausted?
SHRSOHZKRKHOGWKHSRZHUWROHWPHGRWKH¿OPP\ZD\%XWWKHUHZDV COPPOLA:<HV7KHUROHRI0LFKDHOLVDYHU\VWUDQJHDQGGLI¿FXOW
some spontaneity. For instance, Lenny Montana, who plays Luca Bra- RQHDQGLWSXWDWHUUL¿FVWUDLQRQKLP,WZDVOLNHEHLQJFDXJKWLQDNLQG
VLWKHPD¿RVRLQWKHSLFWXUHZKRFDOOVRQWKH*RGIDWKHUWRWKDQNKLP RIYLVH,QWKH¿UVWSLFWXUHKHZHQWIURPEHLQJD\RXQJVOLJKWO\LQVH-
for being invited to the wedding—that’s before he gets his hand pinned cure, naïve and brilliant young college student to becoming this hor-
to a bar with a knife, of course—is not a professional actor, and he was ULEOH0D¿DNLOOHU,Q*RGIDWKHU,,KH¶VWKHVDPHPDQIURPEHJLQQLQJ
WHUUL¿HGRISOD\LQJWKHVFHQHZLWK%UDQGR:HVKRWWKHVFHQHDGR]HQ to end—working on a much more subtle level, very rarely having a big
WLPHVEXWKHIUR]HRQHYHU\WDNHDQGIRUJRWKLVOLQHV:H¿QDOO\JDYH climactic scene where an actor can unload, like blowing the spittle out
up. Later, I wrote a new little scene where he was at the party, before of the tube of a trombone. The entire performance had to be kind of
his visit to the Godfather, practicing his speech perfectly over and over. vague and so understated that, as an actor, you couldn’t really be sure
:HVKRWWKDWDQGNHSWRQHRIWKHVFHQHVZLWK%UDQGRZKHUH%UDVLIUR]H what you were doing. You had the tremendous pressure of not know-
and it made the whole thing work well with the context of the story. ing whether your performance would have a true, cumulative effect,
As for Brando himself, what an improviser! I told him at one point whether you were creating a monster or just being terrible. The load on
WKDW,GLGQ¶WUHDOO\NQRZKRZWRVKRRWKLV¿QDOVFHQHMXVWEHIRUHKH $OZDVWHUUL¿FDQGLWUHDOO\UDQKLPGRZQSK\VLFDOO\
dies. What could we do to make his playing with his grandson be- PLAYBOY: You obviously had a lot more control over Godfather II
lievable? He said, “Here’s how I play with kids,” and took an orange than Godfather I, didn’t you?
peel, cut it into pieces that looked like fangs and slipped them into his COPPOLA: $EVROXWHO\ , KDG WR ¿JKW D ORW RI ZDUV WKH ¿UVW WLPH
mouth. around. In Godfather II, I had no interference. Paramount backed me
PLAYBOY: Orange peel along with the Kleenex? XS LQ HYHU\ GHFLVLRQ 7KH ¿OP ZDV P\ EDE\ DQG WKH\ OHIW LW LQ P\
COPPOLA: Right. And I thought, what a ridiculous idea. Then sud- hands.
denly I saw it: Of course! The Godfather dies as a monster! And once PLAYBOY: It would have been stupid of them not to, after all the
I’d seen him with the orange-peel fangs, I knew I could never shoot it PRQH\WKH¿UVWRQHPDGH
any other way. COPPOLA: But Paramount was fully aware of some of the chances I
PLAYBOY: How about Pacino, who really had the major role in both was taking and went along. I guess they had to, but they did.
movies? How was he cast? PLAYBOY: One of the most important areas you explore in Godfather
COPPOLA: We were ready to go into production before we found our ,,LVWKHFRQQHFWLRQEHWZHHQ0D¿DRSHUDWLRQVDQGVRPHRIRXUOHJLWL-
Michael Corleone. The studio guys wanted Jimmy Caan to play him. mate big-business interests. Are you saying that some corporations are
I love Jimmy, but I felt he’d be wrong for Michael—and perfect for QREHWWHUDQGQRZRUVHWKDQRUJDQL]HGFULPH"
Sonny. Other people suggested Robert Redford, Warren Beatty, Jack COPPOLA: Right from the very beginning it became clear, as I was
Nicholson, Ryan O’Neal. But all I could see was Al Pacino’s face in GRLQJP\UHVHDUFKWKDWWKRXJKWKH0D¿DZDVD6LFLOLDQSKHQRPHQRQ
that camera. I couldn’t get him out of my head. Even when I read the WKHUHZDVQRZD\LWFRXOGUHDOO\KDYHÀRZHUHGH[FHSWLQWKHVRLORI
ERRN,NHSWVHHLQJKLPDV0LFKDHO,QHDUO\JRW¿UHGRYHULQVLVWLQJRQ $PHULFD$PHULFDZDVDEVROXWHO\ULSHIRUWKH0D¿D(YHU\WKLQJWKH
him, but it worked out in the end. 0D¿DEHOLHYHGLQDQGZDVVHWXSWRKDQGOH²DEVROXWHFRQWUROWKHFDUY-
PLAYBOY: That’s an understatement. After The Godfather went on ing out of territories, the rigging of prices and the elimination of com-
to unparalleled success, what got you interested in doing a sequel? petition—everything was here. In fact, the corporate philosophy that
COPPOLA: Initially, the idea of a sequel seemed horrible to me. It built some of our biggest industries and great personal fortunes was
sounded like a tacky spin-off, and I used to joke that the only way I’d D0D¿DSKLORVRSK\6RZKHQWKRVH,WDOLDQVDUULYHGKHUHWKH\IRXQG
GRLWZDVLIWKH\¶GOHWPH¿OP$EERWWDQG&RVWHOOR0HHWWKH*RGID- themselves in the perfect place.
WKHU²WKDWZRXOGKDYHEHHQIXQ7KHQ,HQWHUWDLQHGVRPH5XVVLDQ¿OP It became clear to me that there was a wonderful parallel to be
executives who were visiting San Francisco and they asked me if I was drawn, that the career of Michael Corleone was the perfect metaphor
JRLQJWRPDNH7KH*RGIDWKHU3DUW,,7KDWZDVWKH¿UVWWLPH,KHDUGWKH for the new land. Like America, Michael began as a clean, brilliant
phrase used; I guess you could say I stole the title from the Russians. young man endowed with incredible resources and believing in a hu-
In short, it seemed like such a terrible idea that I began to be in- manistic idealism. Like America, Michael was the child of an older
trigued by the thought of pulling it off. Simple as that. Sometimes I sit system, a child of Europe. Like America, Michael was an innocent
around thinking I’d like to get a job directing a TV soap opera, just to who had tried to correct the ills and injustices of his progenitors. But
see if I could make it the most wonderful thing of its kind ever done. Or then he got blood on his hands. He lied to himself and to others about
I imagine devoting myself to directing the plays of a cub-scout troop what he was doing and why. And so he became not only the mirror
and having it be the most exciting theater in the country. You know that image of what he’d come from but worse. One of the reasons I wanted
feeling when something seems so outrageous, you just have to do it? to make Godfather II is that I wanted to take Michael to what I felt
That’s what happened to me. was the logical conclusion. He wins every battle; his brilliance and his
Then after I started thinking about the idea, when I considered that resources enable him to defeat all his enemies. I didn’t want Michael
we’d have most of the same actors, the scenes we might be able to to die. I didn’t want Michael to be put into prison. I didn’t want him
develop in depth, I started feeling it really might be something innova- to be assassinated by his rivals. But, in a bigger sense, I also wanted
tive. to destroy Michael. There’s no doubt that, by the end of this picture,
PLAYBOY: Do you, like some critics, think Godfather II is a better Michael Corleone, having beaten everyone, is sitting there alone, a liv-
¿OPWKDQ*RGIDWKHU," ing corpse.
COPPOLA:7KHVHFRQG¿OPJRHVPXFKIXUWKHUWKDQWKH¿UVWRQH,W¶V PLAYBOY: Is that your metaphor for America today?
much more ambitious and novelistic in its structure. If you get off on COPPOLA: Unlike America, Michael Corleone is doomed. There’s
the wrong foot with it, I can imagine that it would be like a Chinese no way that man is ever going to change. I admit I considered some up-
water torture to sit through it. But it’s a more subtle movie, with its beat touch at the end, like having his son turn against him to indicate he
own heartbeat. And it was very tough on some of the actors, especially wouldn’t follow in that tradition, but honesty—and Pacino—wouldn’t
Al Pacino. let me do it. Michael is doomed. But I don’t at all feel that America is
PLAYBOY: Is it true that you had to stop shooting for two or three doomed. I thought it was healthy to make this horror-story statement—
weeks when you were on location in Santo Domingo because Pacino as a warning, if you like—but, as a nation, we don’t have to go down

24

MARCH 2024
that same road, and I don’t think we will. PLAYBOY: Have you got something on AT&T?
PLAYBOY: A number of critics feel that you and others—including, COPPOLA: AT&T I don’t know about, but ITT in Chile? I wouldn’t
SHUKDSV3/$<%2<ZLWKLWVVHULHVRQRUJDQL]HGFULPH²KHOSHGUR- bet my life that it hadn’t. And it’s not just business. How about the
PDQWLFL]HWKH0D¿DLQ$PHULFD+RZGR\RXUHVSRQGWRWKDW" Yablonski murders in that coal miners’ union? That was just the un-
COPPOLA::HOO¿UVWRIDOOWKH0D¿DZDVURPDQWLFL]HGLQWKHERRN LRQ HTXLYDOHQW RI D 0D¿D KLW +RZ DERXW SROLWLFV"$VVDVVLQDWLRQ RI
$QG,ZDV¿OPLQJWKDWERRN7RGRD¿OPDERXWP\UHDORSLQLRQRIWKH a president is the quickest way to bring about lasting and enormous
0D¿DZRXOGEHDQRWKHUWKLQJDOWRJHWKHU%XWLW¶VDPLVWDNHWRWKLQN, social change. What’s the difference between the United States’s put-
ZDVPDNLQJD¿OPDERXWWKH0D¿D*RGIDWKHU3DUW,LVDURPDQFHDERXW ting a guy like Trujillo in power so our companies can operate in the
DNLQJZLWKWKUHHVRQV,WLVD¿OPDERXWSRZHU,WFRXOGKDYHEHHQWKH 'RPLQLFDQ5HSXEOLFDQGWKH0D¿D¶VKDQGLQJWKH%RVWRQWHUULWRU\WR
Kennedys. The whole idea of a family living in a compound—that was one of its capos? Then, after 20 years, either guy gets a little uppity and
all based on Hyannisport. Remember, it wasn’t a documentary about HLWKHURUJDQL]DWLRQIHHOVIUHHWRNQRFNKLPRII
0D¿D FKLHI 9LWR *HQRYHVH ,W ZDV 0DUORQ %UDQGR ZLWK .OHHQH[ LQ PLAYBOY:'R\RXKDYHDQ\VWRULHVWRWHOODERXWKRZWKHUHDO0D¿D
his mouth. UHDFWHGWRWKH*RGIDWKHU¿OPV"
PLAYBOY: :KHUHGRWKH¿OPVGHSDUWPRVWUDGLFDOO\IURPWKHWUXWK" COPPOLA: No.
COPPOLA: Where you get into the mythic aspects of the Godfather, PLAYBOY: And you wouldn’t tell if you had any?
the great father who is honorable and will not do business in drugs. The COPPOLA:1R,ZRXOG%XWWKHIDFWLV,JRWVRPHWHUUL¿FDGYLFH
character was a synthesis of Genovese and Joseph Profaci, but Geno- IURP 0DULR 3X]R +H WROG PH WKDW LQ KLV H[SHULHQFH 0D¿D JX\V
vese ordered his soldiers not to deal in drugs while he himself did just loved the glamor of show business and that, if you let them, they’d
WKDWRQWKHVLGH3URIDFLZDVGLVKRQRUDEOHDWDORWRIOHYHOV7KH¿OP get involved. So Mario told me that I’d probably be contacted and
Godfather would never double-cross anyone, but the real godfathers when I was, I should refuse to open up to them. I shouldn’t take their
double-crossed people over and over. phone number, I shouldn’t let them
PLAYBOY: Still, you won’t deny feel they could visit me. Because if
that, whatever your intentions, Godfa-
WKHU,KDGWKHHIIHFWRIURPDQWLFL]LQJ "America was absolute- there’s one thing about them, it’s that
they respect that attitude. If you turn
WKH0D¿D" them off, they won’t intrude into
COPPOLA: I felt I was making a O\ULSHIRUWKHPD¿D your life. Al Ruddy, the producer,
KDUVK VWDWHPHQW DERXW WKH 0D¿D DQG was out having dinner with a lot of
power at the end of Godfather I when
Michael murders all those people,
(YHU\WKLQJWKH0D¿D them, but I wouldn’t participate in
any way whatsoever with them.
then lies to his wife and closes the
door. But obviously, many people
believed in was here. Funny thing is. I’ve never been
YHU\ LQWHUHVWHG LQ WKH 0D¿D²HYHQ
didn’t get the point I was making.
And so if the statement I was trying In fact, the corporate though some important guys in the
Mob have the same name as I do.
to make was outbalanced by the char-
ismatic aspects of the characters, I felt philosophy that build “Trigger Mike” Coppola was one of
Vito Genovese’s lieutenants, I think.
Godfather II was an opportunity to Terrible man.
UHFWLI\WKDW7KH¿OPLVSUHWW\URXJK some of our biggest PLAYBOY: Any relation?
The essence of Godfather I is all COPPOLA: You mean Uncle
0DULR3X]R¶VFUHDWLRQQRWPLQH:LWK
Godfather II, which I had a greater
LQGXVWULHVZDVD0D¿D Mike? No, of course not. Coppola is
a common Italian name.
part in writing, I emerged a bit to com-
PHQWRQWKH¿UVW¿OP
philosophy." PLAYBOY: One Hollywood person
who has been mentioned in connec-
But the fact still may be that peo- WLRQZLWKWKH0D¿DLV)UDQN6LQDWUD
ple like Marlon and Jimmy and Al too How are your relations with him,
much. If you were taken inside Adolf Hitler’s home, went to his par- considering that most people believe he was the model for Johnny
ties and heard his stories, you’d probably have liked him. If I made Fontane, the singer-actor in The Godfather?
D ¿OP RI +LWOHU DQG JRW VRPH FKDULVPDWLF DFWRU WR SOD\ KLP SHRSOH COPPOLA:,PHW6LQDWUDVHYHUDOWLPHVEHIRUH¿OPLQJVWDUWHG7KH\
would say I was trying to make him a good human being. He wasn’t, were very friendly meetings, since I never liked the idea of exploit-
of course, but the greatest evil on Earth is done by sane human beings LQJD¿FWLRQDOL]DWLRQRIDPDQDQ\PDQ²DQG,WROGKLPVR,OHWKLP
who are miserable in themselves. My point is that you can’t make a NQRZWKDW,GLGQ¶WOLNHWKDWSDUWRIWKHERRNDQGWKDW,¶GPLQLPL]HLW
PRYLHDERXWZKDWLW¶VOLNHLQVLGHD0D¿DIDPLO\ZLWKRXWWKHLUVHHPLQJ LQWKH¿OP6LQDWUDZDVYHU\DSSUHFLDWLYH7KHQKHWXUQHGWRPHDQG
to be quite human. said, “I’d like to play the Godfather.”
PLAYBOY::KDWDERXWWKRVHZKRVD\QRWWKDWWKH0D¿DLVURPDQWL- PLAYBOY: What?
FL]HGEXWWKDWLWVLPSO\GRHVQ¶WH[LVW" COPPOLA: It’s true. He said, “Let’s you and me buy this god-
COPPOLA: :KHQ SHRSOH VD\ WKH 0D¿D GRHVQ¶W H[LVW LQ D ZD\ damned book and make it ourselves.” I said, “Well, it sounds great,
they’re right. When they say it does exist, they’re right too. You have but….”
WRORRNDWLWZLWKGLIIHUHQWH\HV,W¶VQRWDVHFUHW,WDOLDQRUJDQL]DWLRQDV PLAYBOY: 'LGQ¶W 6LQDWUD \HOO DW 3X]R RQFH ZKHQ WKH\ PHW LQ D
LW¶VSRUWUD\HG7KHPRVWSRZHUIXOPDQLQWKH0D¿DDWRQHWLPHZDVQ¶W restaurant?
Italian—he was a Jew. Meyer Lansky became powerful because he COPPOLA: That incident was caused by some guy trying to make
was the best at forging their common interests—that’s just good busi- points with Sinatra by introducing the two of them very provocative-
ness practice. O\3X]RQHYHUPHDQWWRHPEDUUDVVKLPLQSHUVRQDQGKHWROGPHKH
PLAYBOY: Except that, as far as we know, AT&T hasn’t killed any- thought Sinatra behaved very understandably, considering the way
one in pursuit of its business. they were introduced. But the fact remains that Mario, who is a very
COPPOLA: Who says? Who says? ¿QHZULWHUZDVJRLQJEURNHZLWKVHYHUDOJRRGQRYHOVRXWVRKHVHW
out to write the biggest best seller in history. He was going to do any- more contemporary, political view of women in the person of his
thing he had to in order to get off the merry-go-round. So he wrote wife, Kay, and in her symbolic statement of power when she had her
the perfect commercial book. And exploiting celebrities like Sinatra unborn son killed.
ZDVVRPHWKLQJKHIHOWKHKDGWRGR,QWKH¿OPWKH6LQDWUDFKDUDFWHU PLAYBOY:,I.D\ZDVVXFKDOLEHUDWHGDQGGH¿DQWZRPDQZK\GLG
plays a very small role. I’d have cut it out altogether if I’d had the it take her so long to leave Michael when she was no longer happy
power. with him?
PLAYBOY: Godfather II was supposedly cut down from almost six COPPOLA: It may seem like a long time, but actually they’re to-
hours. What did we miss? gether only six or seven years. How many people do we know who
COPPOLA: My heart was really in the Little Italy sequences, in VWD\WRJHWKHUXQKDSSLO\IRU\HDUVRUPRUHEHIRUHWKH\¿QDOO\VSOLW"
the old streets of New York, the music, all that turn-of-the-century Also, during the 1950s, there were a lot of forces that tended to keep
atmosphere. I had great scenes in the script that we couldn’t include men and women together way beyond the point when they should
in the movie: There was one where Enrico Caruso showed up in the have parted. Think of how many husbands have kept their wives and
neighborhood and sang “Over There” to get guys to enlist for World held their families together by promising that things would change
War I; I had scenes of Italians building the subways, of young Vito just as soon as they became vice presidents or had R1,731,400.00
courting his girl and joining his friends for music and mandolins and in the bank or closed a big deal. I’ve strung my own wife along for
wine. But it all got too long and too expensive. 13 years by telling her that as soon as I was done with this or that
PLAYBOY: Have you ever considered recutting the movies into one project, I’d stop working so hard and we’d live a more normal life. I
JLDQW¿OP" mean, that’s the classic way husbands lie. Often the lies aren’t even
COPPOLA: It’s an exciting thought, and it’s just what I plan to do, intentional. And it’s easy to string a woman along for years by doing
believe it or not. In two years, I’m going to take both pictures, look exactly that. Michael lies to Kay in that way and she believes him at
RYHUDOOWKHRXWWDNHVDQGUHFXWWKHPDQ\ZD\,ZDQWWRLQWRRQH¿OP ¿UVW²EHFDXVHVKHZDQWVWREHOLHYHKLP
<RXGRQ¶WRIWHQGRWKDWEHFDXVHWKHUH¶VDFHUWDLQLQHUWLD2QFHD¿OP PLAYBOY: Why do people tend to get sucked in by their own lies?
is done, it’s done, and you tend not to want to open things up again. Do they just sell out to the system?
,¶YHKDGDQLGHDIRUD¿OP,ZDQWWRPDNHZKLFK,¶GFDOO5HPDNH COPPOLA: Well, people like myself, who decide that it’s neces-
,¶GEX\D¿OP²DQ\¿OP²GHFLGHZKDW,IHOWDERXWLWWKHQUHFXWLW sary to work within a system in order to be able either to change it
maybe shoot some things and make it into a whole new work. RUHYHQWXDOO\WRJRRIIRQWKHLURZQWRVXEVLGL]HWKHNLQGRIZRUN
PLAYBOY: Some critics have charged that in cutting Godfather II, they believe in, inevitably become changed by the process, if they
you gave the picture a jerky, disjointed quality. go along with it. I know a lot of bright young writers and directors
COPPOLA: Oh, they’re full of baloney. They think a movie has to in Hollywood who are very successful—some of them I gave jobs
be what the last four movies were. There isn’t a critic out there who WRIRXURU¿YH\HDUVDJR²DQGWKH\¶UHPDNLQJDORWRIPRQH\EXW
knows what he’s talking about. There may be three. Most are special- they’re no longer talking about the things they used to talk about.
interest critics. Their conversation now is all about deals, about what’s going to sell
PLAYBOY: Meaning? and what isn’t. And they rave about their new cars and their new
COPPOLA: Meaning that there’s a lot of extortion and blackmail R6,925,500.00 houses. They don’t even see or hear the changes in
SUDFWLFHGE\FULWLFV$ORWRIWKHPIRUFHWKH¿OPPDNHUWRSDUWLFLSDWH WKHPVHOYHV7KH\¶YH EHFRPH WKH YHU\ SHRSOH WKH\ ZHUH FULWLFL]LQJ
in certain things that accrue to the critics’ advantage under the im- three years ago. Like Michael, they’ve become their fathers.
plied threat of a bad review. PLAYBOY: You don’t think the same thing could happen to you?
PLAYBOY:&DQ\RXEHPRUHVSHFL¿F" COPPOLA: Sure, it could happen to me. One of the reasons I live
COPPOLA: No, because of course I’m not saying they’re all that here and not in Los Angeles is that I’m trying to keep my bearings. I
ZD\%XWVXI¿FHLWWRVD\WKDWLIWKLVVRUWRIH[WRUWLRQFRQWLQXHVLWPD\ KDYHQRWKLQJDJDLQVW/RV$QJHOHVLW¶VDWHUUL¿FFHQWHURIWDOHQWULJKW
EORZXSLQWKHELJJHVWVFDQGDOWKH¿HOGRIFULWLFLVPKDVNQRZQ,W¶V QRZZLWKWKH¿QHVWDFWRUVDQGFHUWDLQO\WKHEHVWPXVLFLDQVDQGWRS
corrupt right down to the bottom. And I’m speaking as one who has people in every area, but there’s always been a kind of collective
enjoyed generally good favor from the critics. madness that takes place in Hollywood, and it’s very attractive and
PLAYBOY: Which critics do you admire? seductive, but you could lose yourself in it.
COPPOLA: Pauline Kael of The New Yorker. When she writes PLAYBOY::LWKWKHSRZHUDQGDXWKRULW\\RXZLHOGGR\RX¿QGLW
DERXWD¿OPVKHGRHVLWLQGHSWK:KHQ,PDNHDEDGSLFWXUH,H[- hard to keep a grip on your ego?
pect her to blast me higher than a kite and I’ll be grateful for that. I COPPOLA::HOO,¶PQRZEXW,GLUHFWHGP\¿UVWSOD\LQ²
like Time’s Jay Cocks, who’s a friend; Steven Farber and Playboy’s which is nearly 20 years ago—so I haven’t been overwhelmed by
%UXFH:LOOLDPVRQ ZKR KDYH OLNHG VRPH RI P\ ¿OPV DQG 6WDQOH\ power overnight. But sure, everyone has that problem. Let me give
Kauffmann of the New Republic, who often hasn’t. you an example: Al Ruddy, who’s a nice guy but who’s more of a
PLAYBOY:<RXUODVWWKUHH¿OPV*RGIDWKHU,DQG,,DQG7KH&RQ- wheeler-dealer than I am, used to walk onto the Godfather set now
versation, have been negative. Does that mean you’ve become more and then to suggest that an actor wear a hat for such and such a scene.
of a pessimist about life? I’d say, “No, I already thought this scene out. Thanks, anyway.” And
COPPOLA: Really, I’m not a negative person. Just the opposite. no sooner would the sentence be out of my mouth than I’d think,
Starting now, I’m going to try to let the other side of me be more fuck it, he’s right, the actor should be wearing a hat. But I wouldn’t,
HYLGHQWLQP\PRYLHV,W¶VIXQQ\EXW,¶YHQRWLFHGWKDWYHU\RIWHQ¿OP or couldn’t, change it. If it had been George Lucas or someone like
PDNHUV UHÀHFW WKLQJV LQ WKHLU PRYLHV WKDW DUH WKH RSSRVLWH RI ZKDW that, I’d have accepted the suggestion. But there are some people you
WKH\UHDOO\IHHO,NQRZVRPHPHQZKRVH¿OPVDUHKLJKO\VH[XDOEXW can’t take criticism from, perhaps because you feel threatened.
who lead very tame home lives. PLAYBOY: How would you feel threatened?
PLAYBOY::K\LQERWK*RGIDWKHU¿OPVDUH\RXUIHPDOHFKDUDF- COPPOLA: The artist’s worst fear is that he’ll be exposed as a
ters so submissive and acquiescent? sham. I’ve heard it from actors, directors, everyone. I remember
COPPOLA: That was how the women were represented in the origi- hearing Peter Sellers say, “Someday they’re going to uncover me and
nal book and, from what I know, it was the role of women in the UHDOL]H,¶PMXVWDIDNH´'HHSGRZQZH¶UHDOOOLYLQJZLWKWKHQRWLRQ
0D¿DIDEULF,Q*RGIDWKHU3DUW,,,ZDVLQWHUHVWHGLQGHYHORSLQJD that our success is beyond our ability. In the last couple of years, I’ve
JURZQPRUHFRQ¿GHQWWKDW,KDYHLGHDVWKDW,FDQVROYHSUREOHPV DWWLWXGHVSHRSOHDOUHDG\KDGDERXW,QGLDQVZKHQWKH\¿UVWFDPHKHUH
That’s as much as I’ll give myself for now. 7KHSHRSOHZKRZULWH¿OPVDQGWKHSHRSOHZKRGLUHFWWKHPKDYHDOVR
PLAYBOY: Do you ever feel uneasy about the power you have to been programmed. That isn’t to say we shouldn’t have the courage to
LQÀXHQFHRWKHUSHRSOH¶VPLQGVWKURXJK¿OP²RULQRWKHUZD\V" try to break the mold, but it takes more courage and more originality
COPPOLA: I had a thought about that, a little fantasy that goes than most people have.
OLNH WKLV ,¶P JHWWLQJ WR EH DQ LQÀXHQWLDO SHUVRQ LQ 6DQ )UDQFLVFR PLAYBOY: Isn’t Hollywood much more open to new ideas, new ways
ZKDWLI,DQG¿YHRWKHUSRZHUIXOJX\VZLWKFLJDUVJRWWRJHWKHULQD of doing things than it used to be?
VPRNH¿OOHG URRP WR GHFLGH ZKR ZRXOG EH WKH QH[W PD\RU RI 6DQ COPPOLA: Yes, but it’s chaotic. There’s no leadership, maybe be-
Francisco? We do it because we’re good guys and we really want the cause the country itself has no leadership, either. Making movies is a
city to be wonderful for everybody. Then I thought, what’s the dif- great, complex, writhing crap game. No one is running anything and
IHUHQFHEHWZHHQ¿YHJRRGJX\VKROGLQJWKDWNLQGRISRZHUDQG¿YH the only priority is the one that’s become uppermost in America today:
bad guys? Just good intentions, and intentions can be corrupted. And WRPDNHDSUR¿W
LW¶VQRWMXVWVD\LQWKHSROLWLFDO¿HOG/HWPHPDNHDVWDWHPHQWDERXW PLAYBOY: When you started out in your career, did you have to do
power: From now on, I’m determined to give tremendous thought ZRUN\RXZHUHDVKDPHGRIMXVWWRPDNHDSUR¿W"
to the impact any project I undertake will have on the public. It may COPPOLA: Well, I’ve done some stuff that hasn’t worked out too
VRXQGZRUG\LWPD\VRXQGREYLRXVEXWYHU\IHZ¿OPPDNHUVHYHU well. But I never took on anything with the attitude that it was going to
really do that. be terrible. It may have turned out that way, but I thought it was great
PLAYBOY: Did you think that way about The Godfather? ZKLOH,ZDVGRLQJLW,ZDVZRUULHGDERXWFHUWDLQ¿OPVWKRXJK,ZDV
COPPOLA: No. How could I? I’ve spoken about the circumstances worried while I was making them that things were going wrong and I
surrounding that project. But if the picture seems to some to be ir- didn’t have the power to change them. During the shooting of Finian’s
responsible because it celebrates Rainbow at Warner’s years ago, I
violence, that was never my intent. was brought in to direct a project that
In fact, there’s very little actual
YLROHQFHLQWKH¿OP,WRFFXUVYHU\ "As I video-taped him. had already been cast and structured.
I was also working in a big studio,
quickly. It’s just that the violence
happens to characters you like. If Brando reached for some in a methodology I didn’t understand
very well and over which I had no
I were to roast 50 people alive in control. I’d express some doubts
The Towering Inferno, it would Kleenex. ‘I want to be about the way things were going,
be less horrible than shooting up and the people around me would
a guy you’ve come to know and
EHOLHYH LQ , RQFH VDZ D ¿VW¿JKW
like bulldog,’ he mum- say, “It’s going great.” I’ll never get
myself caught in that kind of situa-
in a New York restaurant that was
modest by movie standards. But
bled, and stuffed wads tion again, because I now surround
myself with people whose taste I re-
I’d never seen anything so fright-
ening; they were real people. of it into his mouth. I spect and who have the right to hit all
the sour notes they want. We had no
PLAYBOY: How will this deter-
mination to consider public impact watched this 47-year-old sour notes on Finian’s Rainbow; eve-
U\RQH NHSW VD\LQJ KRZ WHUUL¿F HYH-
DIIHFW\RXUQH[W¿OP" rything was all the time. They were
COPPOLA: My next project is man turn into an aging sincere; their motives were pure. But
going to be delicate in that context. today I try to work with people who
,W¶V JRLQJ WR EH D ¿OP DERXW9LHW-
nam, although it won’t necessarily
0D¿DFKLHI won’t hesitate to say, “We’re mak-
ing a mistake.” And if after thinking
be political—it will be about war about it I agree with them, we stop
and the human soul. But it’s dan- and make changes. The one good
gerous, because I’ll be venturing into an area that is laden with so many thing I’d say about the old Hollywood, however autocratic and restric-
implications that if I select some aspects and ignore others, I may be tive it may have been, is that you really got opinions from people who
doing something irresponsible. So I’ll be thinking hard about it. weren’t afraid to give them and you always knew where you stood.
3HRSOHDUHKXQJU\IRU¿OPQRZVXVFHSWLEOHWRLWEHFDXVHLWUHDFK- PLAYBOY: You mean from men such as Harry Colin and Louis B.
es them on an emotional level. We’re living in a time when things are Mayer, the men who used to run the studios?
FKDQJLQJTXLFNO\=LSWKHUHZHQWWKH&DWKROLF&KXUFK]RRPWKDW COPPOLA:<HVDQG'DUU\O=DQXFNDQG'DYLG6HO]QLFNDQGDOOWKH
was the traditional family unit you just saw go by. People aren’t sure others. People weren’t afraid to back up their opinions. Today every-
RIZKDWWKH\DUHIHHOLQJRUZKDWWREHOLHYHLQVR¿OPFDQEHDYHU\ WKLQJLVYHU\FRQIXVHGDQGSHRSOHNLQGRIÀRDWDURXQGDPRUSKRXVO\
LQÀXHQWLDOPHGLXPQRZ0LOOLRQVRISHRSOHZDWFKHG7KH*RGIDWKHU Nobody backs up his hunches. There are a handful of directors today
around the world, each person spending three hours in a dark theater. who have total authority and deserve it. And then there are a lot of other
Imagine how valuable that time with them is. It’s priceless, and yet a directors who really ought to be working with strong producers and
¿OPPDNHUKDVLW,WKLQNWKDW¶VDQH[WUDRUGLQDU\WKLQJ strong writers, but they all think they’re Stanley Kubrick. The auteur
PLAYBOY: Do you feel that Hollywood directors in the past have WKHRU\LV¿QHEXWWRH[HUFLVHLW\RXKDYHWRTXDOLI\DQGWKHRQO\ZD\
been irresponsible in propagating stereotypes, in exerting the wrong you can qualify is by having earned the right to have control, by hav-
NLQGRILQÀXHQFHRYHUWKHSXEOLF" LQJWXUQHGRXWDVHULHVRIUHDOO\LQFUHGLEO\JRRG¿OPV6RPHPHQKDYH
COPPOLA:3HUKDSVWRVRPHH[WHQWEXW$PHULFDQ¿OPVKDYHIRO- it and some men don’t. I don’t feel that one or two hits or one or two
lowed the stereotypes, not set them. I read somewhere recently that EHDXWLIXO¿OPVHQWLWOHDQ\RQHWRWKDWPXFKFRQWURO$ORWRIYHU\SURP-
WKH$PHULFDQ¿OPZDVUHVSRQVLEOHIRURXUYLHZRIZKDWDQ,QGLDQ ising directors have been destroyed by it. It’s a big dilemma, of course,
ZDV%XWLWLVQ¶W7KH$PHULFDQ¿OPPHUHO\HFKRHGDQGDPSOL¿HGWKH because, unfortunately, the authority these days is almost always shared
image that already existed in the national consciousness. It reinforced with people who have no business being

27

MARCH 2024
producers and studio executives. With one or two exceptions, there’s UXOHV RI SURSHUW\ DQG SUR¿W %\ WKH V DIWHU WKH 8QLWHG 6WDWHV
QR RQH UXQQLQJ WKH VWXGLRV ZKR¶V TXDOL¿HG HLWKHU VR \RX KDYH D had demonstrated that the ultimate result of this ingenuity was our
YDFXXPDQGWKHGLUHFWRUKDVWR¿OOLW emergence as the most powerful nation in the world, we were being
PLAYBOY: Then Hollywood today isn’t as good a place to make run by huge, entrenched institutions completely hostile to that kind
movies as it was when it was dominated by the big studios? of inventiveness. By 1941, Henry Ford couldn’t have built his cheap
COPPOLA:7KHUHDUHPD\EHRIWKH¿QHVWDFWRUVLQWKHZRUOG car. We might have had a Henry Ford in the 1940s. His name was
OLYLQJLQ+ROO\ZRRGDQGWKHUHDUH¿QHZULWHUVDQGDOONLQGVRIWDOHQW- Preston Tucker.
ed people, but it’s a sad, pent-up place. The actors are frustrated; they Tucker designed a car that could be built for a fraction of the kind
don’t feel they have anywhere to work. When good actors say work, of money the major companies were spending on their new models.
they mean work that uses the best of their talent, that uses them fully It was a safe car, a revolutionary car in terms of engineering and it
and creatively. And the truth of the matter is that there is nowhere was a beautiful car. In every way, it was a much better machine than
to work that way these days. So they become petulant, they become the stuff the major companies were offering, the companies created
GHSUHVVHGDQGWKH\KDWHWKHPVHOYHVIRULW,IHHOWKDWWKH¿OPEXVLQHVV by Ford and the others. But Tucker was called a fraud and he was
WRGD\ZLWKLWVWUHPHQGRXVSRWHQWLDOWRPDNHSUR¿WVZLWKDKXJHQHZ destroyed. If he were alive today, he’d be hired by one of the major
audience of people all over the world who love to go to the movies, FDU FRPSDQLHV DQG KLV LQYHQWLRQV ZRXOG EH VKHOYHG RU ¿OWHUHG RXW
should be providing not only a product, something it can sell, but a to the public as the company deemed economically prudent. Not to
hospitable place for creative people to work. Now, at a time when EHQH¿WWKHSXEOLFEXWWKHFRPSDQ\DQGRQO\WKHFRPSDQ\,¶PJRLQJ
ZHVWDQGRQWKHHYHRILQFUHGLEOHSUR¿WVWRWKLQNWKDWQRPRQH\QR WRPDNHD¿OPRI7XFNHU¶VVWRU\VRPHGD\
percentage of any money is being used to provide a really stimulating PLAYBOY: Many of the opinions you’ve expressed to us, including
place for actors and writers and directors to work, that all the energy WKLVRQHUHÀHFWWKHDQWLHVWDEOLVKPHQWYLHZVRIWKHUDGLFDOPRYHPHQW
is going into nothing but deal-making, well, that’s incredible to me. Are you politically active?
/$RXJKWWREHWKHDFWLQJDQGWKHDWHUDQG¿OPFDSLWDORIWKHZRUOG COPPOLA: No. Politically, no one knows what I am, including
but nothing is happening. me. I have a lot of very articulate, super-radical friends who criti-
PLAYBOY: Do you think you can make something happen with FL]HPHIRUOLYLQJLQDELJH[SHQVLYHKRXVHWKH\DSSDUHQWO\EHOLHYH
your own company? the world would be a better place if I moved into a shack. I notice,
COPPOLA: What I’m talking about can’t be accomplished by a lit- though, that, like me, they send their children to private schools. You
tle company like mine. It would take a major company to really grab see, I believe everybody should live in a nice house. I also believe in
this thing by the tail. public education; until last year, I had my own kids in public schools,
PLAYBOY: There are rumors that you actually were offered control EXW,GHFLGHG,ZDVQ¶WJRLQJWRVDFUL¿FHP\FKLOGUHQWRDQHJDOLWDU-
of a major studio. ian ideal. The public schools in this city and all over the country are
COPPOLA: Really? Where’d you hear that? bad. I refuse to make my children guinea pigs to some social ideal,
PLAYBOY: From several people. Is it true? so I’m not going to send them to our crappy schools anymore. The
COPPOLA: Let’s say that I was approached by certain people and whole school system has to be changed in this country. Just believ-
there were discussions, but that’s all. Look, I must be honest with ing in certain things or giving your own money away isn’t going to
\RX,¶YHMXVW¿QLVKHGD¿OPDQG,¶P,KDYHDJRRGIXWXUHLQIURQW change anything.
RIPHDQG,¶PWU\LQJWR¿JXUHRXWZKDW¶VWKHPRVWH[FLWLQJSRVLWLYH PLAYBOY: What have you done yourself to help bring about
ZD\WRJRRQZRUNLQJLQ¿OPVDQGWDNLQJRYHUDVWXGLRPLJKWKDYH change?
been a way. But as I see things now, that would take so much energy COPPOLA: ,Q D VHOIVDFUL¿FLQJ SHUVRQDO ZD\ SUREDEO\ QRWKLQJ
that I’m not sure it’d be worth it. I mean, if I were running a studio, Look, if someone announced next year that everyone should put
it might take me 100 BTUs worth of energy to bend something a all of his money in escrow and that we’d elect a board of men and
quarter inch; if I stay independent and use my own resources, those women guided by the highest humanistic principles to administer the
100 BTUs could bend something a foot. I think events can make the money to build homes and parks and educational centers for every-
decision for you, though. If someone were to come up to me and one, I’d do it in a minute. A lot of people would. But if half of the
RIIHUPHWKHPRVWLQFUHGLEOH¿OPFRPSDQ\LQKLVWRU\DQGVD\³'R people in the world gave up their money and half didn’t, the givers
what you want, we’re behind you,” then I’d interpret that as a cosmic would be exploited by the keepers. Wealth is the only protection in a
indication that I should do it. society that works on a system of property, of exploiter and exploitee.
But look: The average executive of a movie studio may make So that if I gave up what I earn, it wouldn’t really improve anyone
R2,597,100.00 a year, and have a corresponding power over his com- else’s situation as much as it would deteriorate mine. There’s no mid-
SDQ\$VD¿OPDUWLVW,PDNHPXFKPXFKPRUHWKDQWKDWDQGFRQVH- dle ground. If you have money, you’re an exploiter; if you don’t,
quently, have that much more power over my company. I’ve already \RX¶UHH[SORLWHG:H¶UHLQD¿VKWDQNLQZKLFKWKHUHDUHRQO\¿VKZKR
PDGHDPLOOLRQGROODUVIRUGLUHFWLQJD¿OP6RZKDWGR,GR²DVNIRU eat and others who are eaten. If that’s the only choice I’m offered,
a million and a half? Perhaps the wisest thing to do is to use all my WKHQ,KRSHWREHD¿VKWKDWHDWV:HKDYHWRGUDLQWKHWDQNDQGJHW
HQHUJLHVWRPDNHD¿OPWKDWJURVVHVVRPHVWXSHQGRXVDPRXQWWKHQ into a newer, higher system altogether.
go out and buy a major company and change it from the top. But I PLAYBOY: You certainly have the money now to afford beautiful
don’t know. As soon as you become that big, you get absorbed. things, and you’ve bought plenty of them. You also seem to have a
PLAYBOY: You mean absorbed into a corporate structure? craving for gadgets and expensive toys, like the R865,700.00 Mer-
COPPOLA: Yes, and not just in the movie business. Traditionally, cedes you own. What kind of things do you like to spend money on?
our greatest heroes have been creators and inventors. A hundred years COPPOLA: I’ve spent money on my house because I need space
ago, what we paraded before the world was something called Yankee and because I want to enjoy my family. I’ve found that there are
ingenuity. Every one of our great cartels and corporations was started some things money can buy that truly make life more pleasant and
by—that is, the original impulse came from—an Andrew Carnegie or give you more time to do the things that are really important, such
a Thomas Edison or a Henry Ford, guys who used their inventive ge- as your work. When I was very young, I thought I needed a lot of
nius to create something better. And we made the best products in the things, but I’ve discovered that the more I have, the less I need. I’ve
world! And what those men created evolved into cartels, with their KDGWHUUL¿FVSRUWVFDUVLQP\GD\VRQRZ,GULYHD+RQGDFDU²QRW

28

MARCH 2024
WREHFXWHRUDQ\WKLQJOLNHWKDWEXWEHFDXVH,UHDOO\OLNHLW$Q;.( PLAYBOY: Pardon us for mentioning it, but you didn’t really an-
pulls up alongside and the guy looks at me in my little Honda. Noth- swer our question about playing around. Would you rather not?
ing happens. I’m not jealous, because I’ve had that other car, I know COPPOLA: What can I say? I love women. I can be walking down
I could have one and I don’t need it anymore. There’s something the street with my wife, and I’ll see a beautiful woman and I’ll pat
about possessions, living wealth, that really has to do with trying to my wife on the shoulder and say, “Hey, look at her?” But to some
prove something to yourself. My lifestyle is going to get simpler and extent, the myth about famous movie directors’ being pursued by
simpler with the coming years. women is not quite accurate. For one thing, there’s so little time and
PLAYBOY: What about that Mercedes? so much work to be done. I once asked one of my assistants, who’s
COPPOLA: I didn’t buy it. It was a gift, and I hardly ever use it. I always with beautiful girls, how he met so many of them. He said,
also own a private jet. When I bought it, it was because I had once “Easy; I tell them I’m going to introduce them to you.” But he never
WKRXJKW³:RZZRXOGQ¶WLWEHFUD]\WRKDYHDSULYDWHMHW´,GRDORW does. And it would seem to me that although the life of a swinging
of things and live in the same fantasy spirit that I write in. It’s all bachelor might have some temporary appeal, it would be something
make-believe to me. It’s a fairy tale and I get to do all the things I can that would run out pretty fast. I’m happy living with my wife and I
LPDJLQH%XW,¿QGWKDWDV,DFWXDOO\GRWKHP,GRQ¶WQHHGWKHPDQ\- enjoy the format of the traditional family. And I love kids. If I had
more. If I keep the private jet, it will be because I’ve found it useful. my way, I’d have 10 of them. I’ve always been like that. One of my
Even when I began buying things, I’d take whatever I’d bought out happiest summers was being a camp counselor. Even as a kid, I liked
RIWKHER[DQGRIWHQ,¶GUHDOL]HLPPHGLDWHO\WKDW,UHDOO\GLGQ¶WQHHG littler kids.
it or want it. I gave a lot of things away to people as presents, things PLAYBOY: Were you happy as a kid?
I’d bought for myself the day before. COPPOLA: My childhood was very warm, very tempestuous, full
PLAYBOY: What does make you happy, besides your work? of controversy and a lot of passion and shouting. My father, who is
COPPOLA: What brings me the greatest joy is the company of nice an enormously talented man, was the focus of all our lives, the three
people and to be able to go through all the rituals with them, to eat children and my mother. Our lives centered on what we all felt was
dinner with them, cook with them, talk with them. I’m very European the tragedy of his career. He was a very frustrated man, because,
in that respect. WKRXJKKHSOD\HG¿UVWÀXWHIRUWKH1%&6\PSKRQ\XQGHU7RVFDQLQL
PLAYBOY: Do you have a lot of people around all the time? he felt that his own music never really emerged. I worked for Western
COPPOLA: No. My wife is a very private person, which is prob- Union one summer when I was 14 and, for some unknown reason—I
ably why I’m still married to her, because I’m a big consumer of still don’t know why—I wrote up a phony telegram to my father
things and people, but I know I can’t consume her, so I could never telling him he’d landed a job writing the musical score for such and
get tired of her. VXFKD¿OP,VLJQHGLWZLWKWKHQDPHRIWKHJX\ZKRZDVLQFKDUJH
PLAYBOY:,VVKHDELJLQÀXHQFHRQ\RXUOLIH" of music at Paramount Pictures. My father was overjoyed and yelled,
COPPOLA: 1R , FDQ¶W VD\ WKDW (YHU\ERG\¶V ZLIH LV D ELJ LQÀX- “It’s my break! It’s my break!” And I had to tell him it wasn’t true.
ence, but I don’t want to give the mistaken impression that she’s the He was heartbroken. Is that a terrible story?
TXLHWFRQFHSWXDOL]HURIP\OLIH,GLVFXVVWKLQJVZLWKKHUDQG,WKLQN Well, at least you know why I was so delirious when he shared the
she’s really bright and I respect her values a lot. She’s not interested Oscar for best musical score with Nino Rota. Much of what is called
at all in money or material objects. She’s interested in ideas. The best source music—the compositions played by marching bands, per-
GH¿QLWLRQ,FDQJLYH\RXRIP\ZLIHLVWKDWVKH¶VDQLPSRVVLEOHSHUVRQ formed on stage and so on—in both Godfathers is his, and I used him
to buy a present for, because there’s nothing she wants. You know not because he’s my father but because he’s an excellent composer.
what I once gave her for Christmas? The kids were opening their PLAYBOY: When you were younger, did you dream of success on
presents and I went into the other room and made her a cappuccino, a scale like this?
put it in a box, wrapped it up, brought it out and gave it to her. To COPPOLA:,DOZD\VGUHDPHG,DOZD\VIDQWDVL]HG:KLOH,ZDVLQ
this day, she maintains it’s the best present she ever got, because she college, I’d tell people I was going to be a famous director, I was
really wanted that cup of coffee. That’s the way she is. going to be rich. People who knew me then tell me they felt it would
PLAYBOY: Generally speaking, what kind of women do you like happen. But I never really believed it would happen, not like this.
to have around you? PLAYBOY: Would you say the success has come easily to you, or
COPPOLA: I’ve always enjoyed being around women older than did you have to take risks?
myself. My wife is three years older than I am. I’m very attracted to COPPOLA: I’ve been taking small chances all along. I’ve always
intelligent women. been a good gambler and I’ve never been afraid to take a chance. I
PLAYBOY: A lot of men in the movie industry use their power and don’t think the risks I’ve taken have been that dramatic, but even so,
their status as celebrities to play around sexually. Have you ever been there have been times when I’ve stuck my neck out and almost had
tempted along those lines? my head chopped off. But ultimately, I’ve been rewarded. I’ve been
COPPOLA: I’d like to point out that it’s not only the men who play treated very well by Hollywood. And I’ve been treated very well by
around, as you put it. I know a female casting executive who uses her this country. The main reason I’ve been treated well is that I have
position just as a man might. It’s incredible how this woman operates. taken risks, and people have some respect for that.
6KHXVHVKHUSRVLWLRQWRNHHS¿YHRUVL[PHQJRLQJDWRQHWLPHDQG Of course, when you gamble, sometimes you lose. It goes in
she’s just as exploitive of her position as any man might be. I’m con- streaks. When the streak goes your way, you build on it as fast as you
vinced that men and women are basically very similar in many more FDQXWLOL]LQJWKHLUPRQH\QRW\RXUV<RXWU\WRFDWFK\RXUVWUHDNLQ
respects than we’ve been brought up to believe. We’ve been taught anything.
so-called masculine roles, just as women have been programed into PLAYBOY: One last question: You have said you’d never make a
so called feminine ones. But the lines aren’t so clearly drawn any- Godfather III. But is the story of Michael Corleone really over?
more, partly because of the women’s movement. What I’m talking COPPOLA: Nine times out of 10, people who say they’re never go-
about has nothing to do with what people do in bed, necessarily. I ing to do something wind up doing it. Right now, I don’t want to make
know a great many heterosexual women who are very masculine in another sequel. But maybe 30 years from now, when I and all the actors
many ways, and many heterosexual men who are very feminine. I have gotten really old, then it might be fun to take another look.
include myself among the latter and I always have.
Behind
the Cover:
January
1989
WRITTEN BY
LIZ SUMAN

A look inside the sleek,

thoughtful oeuvre of Ernest
Trova, the self-taught sculp-
tor behind PLAYBOY’s 35th
anniversary cover
Art at Playboy has never been limited to pictorials of beautiful
women. It—as well as our ubiquitous Rabbit Head logo—has
been inherent to the ethos of the brand for 67 years and counting.
So much so that the latter has often served as the inspiration—
and literal blank canvas—for the former. Case in point: World-
renowned sculptor Ernest Trova created this futuristic stainless-
steel hinged version of our Rabbit for the cover of PLAYBOY’s
-DQXDU\  LVVXH LQ FHOHEUDWLRQ RI WKH PDJD]LQH¶V WK
anniversary (pictured below).

A portrait of the artist

A self-taught artist born and bred in Missouri, Trova rose to

prominence in the 1960s for his Falling Man series, a collection of
sculptures, paintings and silk-screened prints depicting an armless
KXPDQ ¿JXUH ZKLFK WKH DUWLVW FKDUDFWHUL]HG DV ³PDQ DW KLV PRVW
PLAYBOY’s January 1989 issue
imperfect.” Following the death of his father, an industrial tool designer
and inventor, Trova secured a job as the window dresser for a department
store. Working with mannequins clearly informed the artist’s aesthetic,
While being asked to create any cover was an honor, being DVGLGWKHMD]]DQGEOXHVPXVLFKHRIWHQOLVWHQHGWRZKLOHKHZRUNHG
WDSSHGIRUWKH¿UVWLVVXHRIZDVSDUWLFXODUO\VSHFLDO³'RQ¶W (Fun fact: At the time of the 1989 Playboy commission, Trova was
GR D PDJD]LQH WKDW¶OO MXVW VKRZ KRZ VPDUW ZH WKLQN ZH DUH´ FRQVWUXFWLQJDVHULHVRIEURQ]HWURXEDGRXU¿JXUHVLQVSLUHGE\WKHPXVLF
Hugh Hefner had said in response to editors’ suggestion to mark of Spanish crooner Julio Iglesias.)
WKH PDJD]LQH¶V WK DQQLYHUVDU\ ZLWK ³D JUDQG UHWURVSHFWLYH
issue.” Instead, Hef continued, “Do an issue that will get the
essence of Playboy without any pretense. Do an issue that a
reader will savor, not one that an editor will gloat over.”
3URYLGLQJWKHLVVXH¶VGH¿QLQJYLVXDOVWDWHPHQWLQOLQHZLWK
Hef’s vision was a testament to Trova’s skill and originality,
and the artist was in incredibly good company. The star-studded
UROOFDOOIRUWKHSDJHWRXUGHIRUFHLQFOXGHGGR]HQVRIWKH
PRVW LPSRUWDQW FXOWXUDO DUWLVWLF DQG OLWHUDU\ ¿JXUHV WR JUDFH
3OD\ER\¶VSDJHVGXULQJLWV¿UVWWKUHHDQGDKDOIGHFDGHV0DUWLQ
Luther King Jr., Ray Bradbury, Barbra Streisand, Jack Kerouac,
John Lennon, Yoko Ono, Raquel Welch, Shel Silverstein, Linda
Lovelace, LeRoy Neiman, Ian Fleming, Vladimir Nabokov,
Joan Collins, David Mamet, John Updike, Barbi Benton, Joyce
Carol Oates, Truman Capote, Bo Derek, Andy Warhol, Bunny
<HDJHU 5REHUW 'H 1LUR 0DOFROP ; DQG 0DGRQQD²WR QDPH
just a few.

Trova created this exclusive “Do-It-Yourself Multiple” for PLAYBOY’S December 1970
issue, allowing readers to take home an original Trova for the bargain price of R29.00—the
magazine’s cover price at the time.
 Though his 1989 cover art is perhaps the most memorable of Trova’s
creative contributions to the Playboy pantheon, it is not the only one.
,QDGGLWLRQWRLOOXVWUDWLRQZRUNIRUWKHPDJD]LQH LQFOXGLQJWKHVSHFLDO
three-dimensional cut-out pictured above), the artist also created a seven-
by-four-foot kinetic Rabbit Head for Playboy in 1997. That hinged hare
now greets guests in the lobby of the company’s world headquarters in
/RV$QJHOHV DQG \RX¶G EH KDUGSUHVVHG WR ¿QG D YLVLWRU ZKR OHDYHV
ZLWKRXWDVHO¿HZLWKWKHDUWLVW¶VVLJQDWXUHWDNHRQRXUPLVFKLHYRXVERZ
tied mascot.

Trova spent more than two months creating this large-scale Rabbit
Head for PLAYBOY in 1997. The sculpture features a flappable ear
and bow tie and is the only known kinetic version of the Rabbit.

33

MARCH 2024
Sometimes
a Cigar Is a
Just a Cigar

BY MYCHAL DENZEL SMITH PHOTO BY OXFORD_SHOT

 I only recently came to smoking cigars as a near- gars. Gangsters and cigars go hand in hand.
daily habit. I’ve enjoyed them in the past, but It doesn’t require a semester of a gender studies course to un-
with all the extra time on my hands during pan- derstand why this is. Cigar smoking has long been associated with
GHPLFORFNGRZQ,¿QDOO\KDGWKHFKDQFHWRJHW a brand of masculinity neatly embodied in the gangster archetype.
“into” them. That has meant lots of research on Hardened, stoic, a bit frightening. A cigar in hand, or expertly held
what makes a good cigar—the various tobacco in your teeth, becomes less about enjoyment of tobacco and more
leaves and wrapper types, the countries of origin, a statement on the kind of man you are. Cigar smokers are bosses,
VL]H DQG VKDSH WKH KHUDOGHG EUDQGV²IROORZHG titans of industry, no nonsense, powerful. Fuck with them at your
E\VDPSOLQJDZLGHYDULHW\WR¿JXUHRXWP\SUHI- own peril.
erences and which cigars hit the mark. Then there I can’t say how much this idea of the cigar smoker factors into
are the cigar accessories you need for the full ex- WKHDSSHDOIRUPHEXWLWFHUWDLQO\LVQ¶W]HUR7KHUH¶VVRPHWKLQJWR
perience: cutter, feeling like I’m only a cut, light and draw away from the type of
lighter, ashtray power that rules nations, big and small.
and humidor. As I know, too, that this association is part of the reason it has taken
In the first column of with any hobby, PHVRORQJWRFXOWLYDWHFLJDUVDVDKREE\0\¿UVWFLJDUVPRNLQJ
people seek out experience was almost a decade ago, after a chance encounter on a
our new Philosophy of ways to personal- Brooklyn sidewalk with the founder of a website I was freelancing
Pleasure series, New L]H LW WR UHÀHFW for at the time. He took me to a cigar lounge—one he said was fre-
other parts of their quented by Al Sharpton—and walked me through the ritual. Even
York Times best-selling personality and with help, it took me a while to get it properly lit, then for an hour
interests in the or so I made the rookie mistake of tapping the ash as if it were a
author Mychal Denzel thing they love. cigarette. (Don’t tap the ash; one sign of a well-made cigar is that
Smith writes on the As such, you can it will hold the ash as you smoke it down, and it also serves to keep
¿QG D ORW RI FXV- the cigar from burning too hot, allowing you a longer smoke time).
complexity and sim- tom variations on Still, I enjoyed it. I never thought I would be a smoker, scared
humidors, lighters as I was by my grandfather dying from lung cancer, but I couldn’t
plicity one can find in a and the like. deny it was one of the more relaxing activities of my young, stress-
long drag of a cigar I didn’t think ful life as a broke freelancer. I hated the lounge, though. The atmos-
much of it when I phere was pleasant enough—low lighting and comfy booths—but
saw a picture on- the clientele irked me. It would be the same at all the cigar lounges
line of a humidor I’d visit over the next several years, whenever I got the taste for
and ashtray set painted with the image of Mar- D FLJDU VPRN\ URRPV ZKHUH -DPHV %RQG ¿OPV SOD\HG RQ D ORRS
lon Brando as Vito Corleone in The Godfather, ¿OOHGZLWKPHQZKRZHUHRULPDJLQHGWKHPVHOYHVWREHWKHULJKW-
smoking a cigar, except that maybe it was the
ideal humidor for me given I love The Godfather
(original, I know). I didn’t think much of it again
later when I came across some fan art depicting
Vito in his iconic tuxedo, holding a lit cigar in his
hand as the smoke rises above him. It all made
sense. I could see the scene at the very beginning
A cigar in hand, or
expertly held in your
RIWKH¿OPZLWK9LWRKROGLQJFRXUWLQKLVRI¿FH
as he grants favors on the day of his daughter’s
ZHGGLQJTXLHWO\UHÀHFWLYH\HWVWLOOLPSRVLQJDQG
menacing. It wasn’t until I was smoking a cigar
P\VHOIDIHZGD\VODWHUWKDW,UHDOL]HGVRPHWKLQJ teeth, becomes less
was off about it all: Vito never smoked.
At least not in Part I. Young Vito, played by
Robert De Niro in Part II, can be seen with a about enjoyment of
small cigar a few times, but the older version’s
only vice is wine. The fan art with Brando’s vis-
age is the work of pure imagination. I’ve seen
tobacco and more a
WKH¿OPVGR]HQVRIWLPHVEXWQRWKLQJVWUXFNPH
as off about these fan-created images. It seemed
natural. Gangsters are always smoking cigars
statement on the kind
RQ WHOHYLVLRQ DQG LQ ¿OP 7RQ\ 6RSUDQR LQ 7KH
Sopranos, nearly everyone in Goodfellas, both of man you are.
the 1932 and 1983 versions of Scarface and so
on. Indeed, when Francis Ford Coppola tricked
Brando into a screen test for The Godfather role,
among the props he brought with him were ci-
 2QP\²UHHVFDSHFLJDULQ
hand, I don’t imagine my-

ful inheritors of wealth, power and status. Men in

self powerful. I know I’m
NKDNLSDQWVDQGWDFN\EOD]HUVZKRPDGHPRQH\
off the misery of others and still were able to not. But I am taking time
sleep at night. My trips to cigar lounges were in-
frequent because I feared accidentally falling into
conversation with one of these men and ruining a
for my mind to clear, to
perfectly good cigar in the process.
It may seem as though I’m a harsh judge, and ²QGSHDFH
I admit that I am, but I’m also an eavesdropper
and I’m only reporting what I heard. For a long
time, I thought the cigar lounge was the only
place I could go for a cigar, so I went only for
special occasions or when the pull of the tobacco experience.
was too strong to deny. 2QP\¿UHHVFDSHFLJDULQKDQG,GRQ¶WLPDJLQHP\VHOISRZHUIXO,
Only recently did I get the notion that I could NQRZ ,¶P QRW %XW , DP WDNLQJ WLPH IRU P\ PLQG WR FOHDU WR ¿QG SHDFH
simply buy a cigar, learn to cut and light it and amid the chaos, trauma and numbness of living through a global pandemic.
luxuriate in the pleasures of smoking all by It’s meditation.
P\VHOI$QG WKDW¶V ZKDW , GR VLWWLQJ RQ WKH ¿UH There are, rather obviously, other things I could do to achieve this—
escape of my New York City apartment, getting light some incense, drink a cup of tea, take a bath, do yoga, actually medi-
lost in the blue-tinted smoke forming curlicues tate—and they would all be better for my long-term health than smoking
RIIWKHFLJDU¶VIRRW,¶YHGHYHORSHGDQDI¿QLW\IRU cigars. I drink plenty of tea, but the proximity to death makes cigar smok-
anything that comes from Padrón, Oliva or Liga ing all the more alluring. It is our greatest unknown, and my biggest fear,
Privada, especially when they have a maduro but when I’m holding the smoke in my mouth, contemplating the potential
wrapper, which tends to carry notes of choco- harm it is causing, I’m able to make peace with its coming. I don’t want to
late, coffee and sweet cedar. They can be a little GLHEXWLWLVLQHYLWDEOHDQGIHDURILWKDV¿OOHGP\ERG\ZLWKDQ[LHW\IRU
spicy, too, particularly when (like all Padróns) decades. For an hour or so, the cigar releases me.
they are made from 100% Nicaraguan tobacco. Not all my thoughts are so morbid, or else I don’t think I would smoke
:KHQWKRVHÀDYRUVDUHH[SHUWO\EDODQFHGDQGWKH daily. But considering the end, wrapped in the billowing cigar smoke, gives
draw is full-bodied and the burn immaculate (like me the space to think about the statement I want to make about the kind of
every Padrón I’ve ever had), it’s a full sensory man I’d like to be while I’m still here.
WHAT IS CALI SOBER?

Skipping booze and hard drugs in favor of

cannabis and psychedelics is a practice with a
long American history—and a bright future

BY ANDREW DEANGELO ILLUSTRATIONS RICHARD A. CHANCE

When Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Bill Wilson dropped acid
in 1956, it transformed his thinking about sobriety. He experienced
a spiritual awakening that led him to embrace LSD as a potential
treatment for chronic alcoholism, believing acid could put people in THE BEAUTY OF
touch with the higher power needed to overcome addiction. (Clinical
studies have since indicated that Wilson’s instinct was spot-on: LSD
use may indeed help reduce alcohol abuse.) Wilson couldn’t have
"CALI SOBER" IS
known it at the time, but he was making early contributions to what
we know today as the “Cali sober” lifestyle. THAT IT ALLOWS
:KHQMRXUQDOLVWDQGUDYHFXOWXUDOLVW0LFKHOOH/KRRTSRSXODUL]HG
the term Cali sober in 2019, she may not have known about Wilson’s
acid trip, but she did know she wanted to quit drinking and using
SPACE FOR EXPERI-
hard drugs. Both cannabis and psychedelics, she felt, could be allies
on that journey—useful substitutes for more harmful compounds.
&DOLVREHUJHQHUDOO\PHDQVDYRLGLQJERR]HDQGKDUGGUXJVEXW
MENTATION, FOR A
not weed or psychedelics such as acid, MDMA and psilocybin.
%XW&DOLVREHULVDÀH[LEOHOLIHVW\OHWKDWDOORZVSHRSOHDQXDQFHG PERSON TO DEFINE
approach to sobriety and intoxication. Some who call themselves
Cali sober still drink lightly on occasion, often just one glass of wine
or a single cocktail. And as you might expect for a term short for
THE TERM BASED ON
“California,” it comes with healthful associations: Yoga, meditation
and other wellness practices are common add-ons to the Cali sober THEIR OWN NEEDS
life. Above all, going Cali sober means taking control of your own
KHDOWKDQGZHOOQHVVDQGUHMHFWLQJULJLGELQDU\GH¿QLWLRQVRIVREULHW\
“What matters with Cali sober is that it becomes additive to life
AND TO RECALIBRATE
and happiness,” culture journalist Jackie Bryant tells me, “not a
numbing or addictive way out of life.” Writer Molly Lambert has
remarked that going Cali sober means you are “weed edge”—an
AS NECESSARY.
XSGDWHRIEHLQJ³VWUDLJKWHGJH´DGHVFULSWRUSRSXODUL]HGE\VREHU
punk rockers who rejected intoxicants and believed sobriety gave
them an advantage.
In recent years Cali sober events, though mostly on a pandemic
pause now, have been growing more common, including Weed
Raves in L.A. and New York City hosted by Lhooq and high-end cannabis and psychedelics ran into a brick wall in
cannabis-infused dinner parties from Malibu to Seattle. Numerous the 1980s: Ronald Reagan and the war on drugs. The
Northern California weed farms now host wellness retreats, and this implementation of widespread workplace drug testing
Dope Tutor has attended more than one Cali sober event that was had a huge effect on the ability of working people to
MXVWDVIXQDQGVRFLDODVDQ\ERR]HLQIXVHGHYHQW consume cannabis: Weed can be detected up to 60 days
Though Cali sober might be a prime example of an enlightened after consumption, whereas cocaine typically leaves the
21st century self-care strategy, the practice of choosing cannabis body after only a few days. Prohibition does not stop
RYHURWKHUUHFUHDWLRQDOGUXJVHPHUJHGORQJDJR,QWKH-D]]$JHRI people from using drugs, but it can make drug use more
WKHVDQGVVRPHPXVLFLDQVGUDQNERR]HRUWRRNKHURLQ dangerous, as users seek other, sometimes riskier, paths
before playing—others just smoked weed. (By my estimation, the to intoxication. And unlike cannabis at the time, alcohol
weed smokers generally had longer musical careers.) When beatniks was cheap and easily accessible by anyone of legal age.
DQG SRHWV EHJDQ HPEUDFLQJ MD]] DQG FDQQDELV LQ WKH V DQG ,Q  &DOLIRUQLD ZDV WKH ¿UVW VWDWH WR OHJDOL]H
1950s, some replaced alcohol in favor of cannabis. medical cannabis, launching a post-Reagan renaissance
As the Age of Aquarius dawned in the 1960s, LSD proliferated in mainstream pop culture of what we now know as
beyond government labs and onto the streets. New lifestyle practices the Cali sober lifestyle. It took more than two decades
revolving around cannabis and psychedelics began to emerge as a IRUOHJDOL]DWLRQWRVSUHDGEXWWRGD\DERXWPLOOLRQ
backlash to society’s alcoholic predilections. Subculture gatherings Americans live in legal-weed states, allowing them to
like the Rainbow Family of Living Light in the 1970s and early experiment with cannabis consumption and the Cali
reggae festivals strongly discouraged alcohol, but weed was shared sober lifestyle.
freely and widely. Many hippie communes and organic farms did That’s the beauty of Cali sober: It allows space for
QRW DOORZ ERR]H WKRXJK JDQMD DQG RWKHU ³YLVLRQDU\´ SODQWV ZHUH H[SHULPHQWDWLRQIRUDSHUVRQWRGH¿QHWKHWHUPEDVHG
an integral part of operations. This was not a world of microdosing on their own needs and to recalibrate as necessary—
before a cocktail party—this was a world of creating alternative including seeking help if needed. I believe our world
realities separate from the dominant culture. These early pioneers can be healed with the help of visionary plants like
laid the groundwork for the Cali sober lifestyle. cannabis, and encouraging the Cali sober lifestyle is one
Yet the burgeoning societal shift away from alcohol and toward way to get more people to the party.

39
IS IT OKAY TO GIVE
POT AS A PRESENT?
Pursue the high art of living your best “weed
life” by being generous with your stash and
learning the gifts of ganja

BY ANDREW DEANGELO ILLUSTRATIONS RICHARD A. CHANCE

If living a pleasurable life is more art than science, then
so is living a successful weed life. I got into cannabis
because of the way it made me feel. I fell in love with
ganja because it let me see newly vivid colors and
enjoy delicious food like never before. I heard music in
an entirely new way after smoking a joint. My dating
life drastically improved thanks to sharing cannabis.
My weed origin story is about experiencing the joy of
cannabis and how that allowed me to begin walking down
just a reiteration of the second, which is a variation
a more pleasurable path in life.
RQWKH¿UVW0DPD*DQMDLVIXOORIFRPSOH[LWLHVDQG
Your Dope Tutor learned in those early years that
resists conformity—just like this Dope Tutor.
cannabis-based pleasure transcends the baseline human
Cannabis will bring pleasure to those who
experience. It elevates it. Some even say you can “kiss
seek it. In part because of this, it makes for an
the sky” when you feel high enough. Plenty of science is
unforgettable gift. It never disappoints, assuming
at work as cannabis pulses through the body—receptors
you have adhered to the above principles.
are activated in the brain and different chemical reactions
People authentically appreciate the gift of weed.
ensue, including euphoria or a sense of calmness. The
, ¿QG WKDW HDFK WLPH , VPRNH VRPH JLIWHG JDQMD ,
list of pleasurable sensations is long; many are not fully
UHÀHFWXSRQWKHSHUVRQZKRJDYHLWWRPHDQGVPLOH
understood by science. That’s where the art comes in.
Accessories like bongs, pipes and hemp blunt wraps
Pairing weed with other experiences can provide a
are always appreciated. There are all kinds of CBD
true lift in the good-living department, and sharing that
products, including some interesting adult-pleasure
pairing with people you care about takes it to another
items. Books about weed are plentiful, including
level. Whether it be passing the vape pen before retreating
cookbooks. And hemp-based clothing, shoes,
to bed with a lover or smoking a joint out in nature with
edibles and other products now boast higher quality
a buddy, combining weed with your favorite people
and lower prices. The wild world of weed continues
and pursuits can help you master the craft of enhancing
to evolve, and gifts are no exception.
enjoyment. To me, being high is about not only getting
So this holiday season, make a good decision
stoned, but also attaining a state of mind that facilitates
and roll up a present of pleasure, along with the art
gratitude and appreciation for life and all the people we
of a (weed) life well lived.
share it with.
Part of the mindful art of living your best weed life, as
I see it, is adhering to certain unshakable principles. First,
always consume the highest-quality cannabis you can.
Buy the best; worry about money later. (Friends may be
more likely to lend you some scratch after getting stoned
tasting your chronic than smoking your schwag.)
THE LAST PRINCIPLE
Second, share your stash with those you love as often
as you can. (Reserve some for yourself, naturally.) The OF A WELL-LIVED
curse of Mama Ganja is that we all run out of weed at
some point. But if you’ve been generous with your goods,
the moment your stash is dry, the sharing principle is
WEED LIFE: NEVER
activated, and your friends will come to the rescue. (Upon
getting stoned, you’ll remark on how karma is a very real LET PEOPLE YOU
thing that scientists should study, and everyone will nod
in agreement.)
The last principle of a well-lived weed life: Never
CARE ABOUT SUFFER
let people you care about suffer through marijuana
GH¿FLHQF\V\QGURPHRU0'6,W¶VDWHUPP\EURWKHUDQG
I use to describe an unfortunate state of mind that usually
THROUGH MARIJUA-
involves tension and irritability and always involves the
need to consume some weed. This last principle is really NA DEFICIENCY
SYNDROME.
Pure seduction

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PhotographerZăæ­UďŒðāďŒ­ɳɩďăæ­ȲĊďŒðāďŒ­Ȳœďīā
Happy to have you on Playboy South Af- and a violin playing just for me. And then truly understand me and know me. Love,
rica! What's the best place you have ever I saw that he’d written my name on a respect and admiration to me are like sun,
been to in the world? It is never an easy bridge as well as that he really liked me. water and fresh air to a flower – they help
choice, is it? I would say that it is Norway For me, it was the ultimate romantic even- me blossom and give me energy.
for me; it is the most magnificent place I ing: a wonderful setting, a lovely dinner,
have ever been to. I love the combination and a surprise that showed that he cared Are you a city traveler or nature explor-
of tranquillity of its fjords with the buzz a lot and wanted to see me happy. I do er? Both! I love making the most of what
of its cities. I try to return there whenever not think I can ever forget that I absolutely life has to offer. I equally enjoy exploring
I can, it helps me restore my energy and loved that night. new cities, big and small, discovering their
I think it is just one of the most stunning secrets and savoring their history and cul-
places, and it does not matter if you go to What makes you the ultimate partner to ture. At the same time, I do love spending
Oslo for its busy city life, history and cul- have? I know what I want, and I know how my time in nature, enjoying the peace and
ture, or escape somewhere in the country- to achieve what I want. Hard-working as I quiet away from the busy city life, it helps
side where you can just relax and immerse am, I know that if you are with someone, me recharge and I return to work full of
yourself into nature. your time should be dedicated to that new ideas and ready to set new goals to
person. That is why when I am in a rela- achieve.
What are some of the biggest dreams tionship, I make it my priority to love and
you hope to achieve? I want to be use- be loved by my partner, to create the best What’s on your travel bucket list? Gosh,
ful. I want to be able to help people, to life for us together, to share our dreams our world is so big and wonderful that it
take part in charity activities. I suppose I and passions, to make him proud. is never an easy task to choose. I want to
would like to support and help as many visit as many countries as I can in all the
people as I can and I want those people to Would you rather be loved, respected or parts of the world, I would be delighted
become family, who would then help each admired? I do believe that I should have to travel around the globe, discovering
other and those who need it. That would all three. I am the kind of girl who de- new places, meeting new inspiring peo-
definitely make me fulfilled and grant me serves the best and should be treated as a ple, enjoying new experiences. There are
a sense of dreams coming true. queen; therefore, I would rather be loved, some places that would be ideal as holi-
respected and admired. If a person can day destinations: Canada, New Zealand or
What helps you decompress and re- give me all three, then it shows that they Australia, South America as well!
lax? Spending time with my family. I adore
them and whenever I get a chance, I hang
out with my mum, sister, and son. They
are my best friends and I know that I can
rely on them, and they will support me
in my endeavors. I also like giving myself
some time off, which I spend just lounging
around doing nothing for a bit. It helps me
restore my strength and get back to work
feeling rejuvenated. Oh, and of course
traveling – I love discovering new places
and revisiting the old favorites. My sched-
ule gets crazy sometimes, but I believe
that having this time off is essential.

How romantic are you? Oh, I am very ro-

mantic and I love presents and surprises
and I love being spoilt because I know
that I deserve it. I enjoy knowing that a
man can go to great lengths to show that
he cares about me and that he values me.
I love being a queen and I love men who
know how to treat a queen and make all
my wishes come true, even if it means tak-
ing risks and making a lot of effort. All that
shows that a man is serious about me.

What is the most memorable date that

you’ve ever had? Once I was invited by
someone to a big yacht for dinner. It was
in Istanbul, and we were enjoying the
evening, having a nice meal and sailing.
There were a lot of flowers that I adore
 Where can our readers catch up with you and stay updated with
your work? I suppose the best place to follow me is on Instagram @
drmelisagunn, where I share my recent work as well as plans for the
future and updates on my current and upcoming projects. My life is
very busy, so even if I do not always have time to reply, I see all the
comments and all the love and I truly appreciate it. This is also where
I am currently sharing updates on the upcoming pageant I am or-
ganizing, so do follow me if you want to be among the first to know
all the exciting news.
 49

MARCH 2024
Want to spice up your bedroom routine
with lingerie? Make sure you get the right
fit with our step-by-step size guide

WRITTEN BY ANDREW SHAFER PHOTOGRAPHY BY MICHAEL BERNARD

52

MARCH 2024
 53

MARCH 2024
“There’s gotta be a better way!” It’s a refrain 7KDW¶VZKHUHRXUVLPSOH¿YHVWHSPDQXDOIRU¿QGLQJ\RXUSDUW-
uttered by late-night infomercial actors as they QHU¶VSURSHUOLQJHULHVL]HFRPHVLQ7KHW\SHRIOLQJHULH\RXEX\LV
clumsily spill soda on their keyboards or fool- LPSRUWDQW VR FRQVXOW RXU /DQJXDJH RI /LQJHULH JXLGH WR ¿QG WKH
ishly try to chop vegetables using a method other one that most titillates you and your partner. (Let’s call that Step
than slapping. And they’re not wrong. There Zero.) But lingerie type is a matter of personal taste.
often is a better way, whether you want to peel :KDW¶V QRW VXEMHFWLYH LV VL]H /LQJHULH LV PHDQW WR PDNH WKH
potatoes using only a glove, navigate a lake in wearer feel empowered, attractive and desired—and the best way
DURZERDWWKDWKDVDVFUHHQGRRUÀRRURUVLPSO\ WRPD[LPL]HWKRVHVHOIHVWHHPERRVWLQJIHHOLQJVLQ\RXUSDUWQHULV
EX\\RXUSDUWQHUDVH[\SURSHUO\¿WWHGSLHFHRI WRJLYHKHUOLQJHULHWKDWDFWXDOO\¿WV6REHIRUH\RXEX\EXVWRXW
lingerie. your tape measure and do some good-natured snooping.
Lingerie can be confusing. There are chemis-
es and garters and corsets and bustiers. How is a Step One: Panty Raid
bralette different from a bra? Hooks, straps, belts,
FXIIV:WDFWXDOILVDPHUU\ZLGRZ"&XSVL]HRU 'RHV VKH DOUHDG\ KDYH VRPH OLQJHULH WKDW ¿WV SURSHUO\" 3HUKDSV
EXVWVL]H:KDW¶VWKHGLIIHUHQFH"6KDNLUDWROGXV from a saucy bachelorette party, or a baby shower where the host
hips don’t lie, but how does that in any way help totally misunderstood what a babydoll is, or Valentine’s Day 2017
us determine how many inches they are? This is when she was still with that dick Thad who, yes, may have been a
about the point in the infomercial when the hap- generous lover but could never make her laugh the way you do and
less husband would fall down the stairs carrying GH¿QLWHO\ GRHVQ¶W UHVSHFW KHU WKH ZD\ \RX GR DQG DOVR ZKDW NLQG
a drawer full of lacy camisoles, narrowly avoid- of name is Thad anyway and who does he even think he is and—
ing a shattered coccyx but stirring up some right- :KHUHZHUHZH"2KULJKW,IVKHDOUHDG\KDVOLQJHULHWKDW¿WV
HRXVLQGLJQDWLRQDWWKHE\]DQWLQHFRPSOH[LW\RI well, then you’re golden. Simply go to her underwear drawer (or
OLQJHULHDQGLWVVL]LQJ the box in the deep recesses of her closet labeled “Mementos of
There’s gotta be a better way! 7KDG´ DQGFKHFNWKHWDJ%RRP²\RXJRWWKHVL]H,IWKLVZHUHD
ÀRZFKDUW\RX¶GEHFUXLVLQJGRZQWKDWOLQHSDVWDOOWKHRWKHUER[HV
VWUDLJKWWRWKH¿QLVK

Step Two: Bust a Move

What if she isn’t yet a lingerie owner? The good news: No Thad to
worry about in this scenario. The bad news: You’ll have to work a
OLWWOHKDUGHUWR¿QGKHUVL]H7KLVVXEWHUIXJHZLOOEHPRUHLQYROYHG
than simply checking a tag, so wait until she’s out of the house or
thoroughly distracted. Throw on a trench coat, some sunglasses and
a fake mustache (if you already have a real mustache, shave it off
as a deep commitment to the disguise) and sneak into her bedroom.
Or, as an alternative, simply walk into her room like a person who
is not a creep or three children stacked on top of each other trying
to sneak into an R-rated movie.
2QFH\RX¶UHLQVWDUWZLWKKHUEXVWVL]H)LQGDEUDVKHZHDUVRI-
WHQDQGFKHFNWKHVL]H7KHQXPEHULVKHUXQGHUEXVWPHDVXUHPHQW
WKHOHWWHULVKHUFXSVL]H7R¿JXUHRXWKHUEXVWPHDVXUHPHQWVLPSO\
DGG WR WKH XQGHUEXVW PHDVXUHPHQW RQH LQFK IRU HYHU\ FXS VL]H
A is one inch, B is two inches, C is three inches, D is four inches
and if you haven’t caught on to the pattern yet you should be very
thankful you are even in a position to have a woman to buy lingerie
IRU)RUH[DPSOHD%EUDVL]HPHDQVKHUEXVWPHDVXUHPHQWLV
LQFKHVD'PHDQVDLQFKEXVWPHDVXUHPHQW0D]HOWRY<RX
PHDVXUHG\RXU¿UVWEXVW

Step Three: Get Waisted

1H[WXSLVWKHZDLVWPHDVXUHPHQW/RFDWHDGUHVVWKDWKDVDGH¿QHG
ZDLVWOLQH ,I DOO VKH KDV DUH ÀRZ\ &RDFKHOOD GUHVVHV ZHOO WKLV LV
going to be harder. Once you’ve located a proper dress, lay it on a
ÀDWVXUIDFH:LWKDWDSHPHDVXUHPHDVXUHWKHLQYHUWHGFXUYHDUHDD
 few inches below the bust—the waistline, in lay-
man’s terms—from one edge of the dress to the
other. Double that number to get her waist meas-
urement. If, for example, the dress measures 13
inches across at the waistline, her waist measure-
ment is 26 inches.

Step Four: Her Hips Adhere to the

Truth at All Times

%XVW &KHFN :DLVW &KHFN 7KH ¿QDO PHDVXUH-

ment you’ll need is her hips. Find a pair of jeans
she wears often. Zip and button them—basically,
the opposite of what you’re trying to accomplish
with this lingerie purchase—and lay them on a
ÀDWVXUIDFH7KHKLSDUHDLVDERXWDQLQFKDQGD
KDOI EHORZ WKH ERWWRP RI WKH ]LSSHU²DND WKH
general area a woman’s hips are located.
Measure the jeans from edge to edge across
that hip area, and then, using the same rigorous
mathematical formula from the waist section,
double it. If the jeans are 18 inches across, the hip
measurement is 36 inches; if they’re 19 inches
across, the hip measurement is 38 inches; if the
hips leave Prague at 7 P.M. traveling at 60 mph
and other hips leave Prague at 11 P.M. traveling
in the same direction at 90 mph, the second hips
will catch up in eight hours. Math!

Step Five: Size It Up

Now that you have her measurements, put all

her clothes back precisely as you found them so
she’ll be none the wiser. Or really throw her off
the trail by ransacking the place and then weav-
ing an outlandish—but just believable enough—
story about a crafty family of possums that broke
into your house and wreaked havoc.
Whichever of those two equally viable op-
WLRQV\RXFKRRVHLW¶V¿QDOO\WLPHWREX\WKHOLQ-
gerie. With her measurements in hand, it’s quite
HDV\ WR GHWHUPLQH KHU VL]H 0RVW OLQJHULH FRP-
SDQLHV SURYLGH D VL]H FKDUW RQ WKHLU ZHEVLWH VR
VLPSO\FRQVXOWWKHFKDUWWR¿QGWKHVL]HWKDWFRU-
responds with her measurements. (Each product
LV XQLTXH VR PDNH VXUH WR FKHFN WKH VL]H FKDUW
for each item you purchase.) If she falls between
VL]HVDOZD\VJRDVL]HXS

Now that you have the right lingerie for the right
SDUWQHULW¶VWLPHWRZRUNRQWKH¿QDOVWHSHQMR\

55
 56

MARCH 2024
The
Language
of Lingerie
An erotic guide to all things silky and sheer

WRITTEN BY THE PLAYBOY EDITORS PHOTOGRAPHY BY MICHAEL BERNARD

57

MARCH 2024
We all know men are enchanted by a woman in lingerie,
EXWPRVWDUHÀXPPR[HGDVWRH[DFWO\ZK\0HQWHQGQRW
to talk of frills, lace or silk, but on a beautiful woman it’s a
language they instantly speak. To explore this conundrum,
we decamped with a Victoria’s Secret photographer and
two beautiful women. We brought trunks of silk stockings,
garter belts, corsets, camisoles and other diaphanous deli-
cates to both conceal and reveal the beauty of the female
form. Below, you’ll witness what we uncovered and learn
what you need to know to help you the next time you’re in
the market for something unmentionable for the woman—
or women—in your life.

En Garter

Garter belts keep thigh-high stockings from sliding down.

Unclipping them adds to the drama of the moment, un-
GHUVFRULQJWKHIDFWWKDWDOOOLQJHULHLVDSX]]OHRIVRUWVD
mystery that leads to the question: How does this thing
come off, and who is going to do it?

Bare Necessities

A woman’s beauty is at its purest without excessive adorn-

ment and unnecessary layers. A diamond choker brings out
the sparkle in her eyes. Simple thigh-high stockings in ba-
sic black cover just enough but don’t distract.

Stocking Options

Black thigh-high stockings highlight the curves of a

OHJ OHDYLQJ MXVW D ÀDVK RI VNLQ DW WKH WRS :KLOH WKH
ORQJVHDPGRZQWKHEDFNLVDQROGIDVKLRQHGÀRXULVKLQ
this day and age, the way it traces the exquisite contour
of the thigh and calf is an anachronism to be embraced.
Slip-on heels are designed to be kicked off.
Stay the Corset

The corset is the most powerful piece of lingerie. And if

the art of the striptease is about the delayed reveal, the
corset is the ultimate in access denied—albeit momen-
tarily. Until access is granted, the garment’s structured
shape accentuates the svelte hourglass contours of the
torso. It can be kinky, it can be empowering, but above
DOOLWFDQEHDGDUHWRERWKSHRSOHWRFRQWLQXHWR¿JXUH
out their roles in the game that ensues.

Heel

A good pair of stiletto pumps adds height and

conveys power. The high heels push the hips
back and the calves out. Shoes can count as a
sort of lingerie in their own right.

You Are Sheer

A lace robe or camisole represents everything

we love about lingerie. It can be kinky or in-
nocent, depending on how a woman wears it.
Above all, it’s transparent.
Living
the
Dream

Model ɩ“ðÆĴďīð­wĊďďāĮ

Photographer by 'ĮĴķ­īÌ:ķðĊЭɳɩÐĮĴķ­īÌæķðĊЭ
 62

MARCH 2024
Tell us about the moment you found out strange fan encounters. I love it when any- about tinted moisturizer and that has be-
you would be featured in the magazine. one comes up and talks. I always appreci- come my new best friend for quick, easy,
What was your initial reaction? I was ab- ate all of the support. and on-the-go.
solutely thrilled! I wasn’t expecting to be
back so soon and to find out it was for What are some of your biggest dreams If you were stranded on a deserted island
Sweden was such incredible news. you hope to achieve? Being back here is with only one accessory, what would it
definitely on that list. But other than that, be? Hypothetically speaking I would have
Can you share your favorite shot or my biggest dream I hope to achieve is to to say Mary Poppin’s bag. That bag would
spread from the magazine and why it make a change in the stigmatism that you have everything I would possibly need in-
KROGVVSHFLDOVLJQL²FDQFHIRU\RX" My fa- face as a mother in the adult industry. I side of it, maybe I could even pull out a
vorite shot would have to be the image of want to empower women so that they can man with survival skills. If it had to be a
me in front of all of the palm trees. I really still be who you are and be a mother. You non-fiction accessory it would be a solar-
love all of the photos for this spread but I can have both; a private life and still be a powered golf cart so I can cruise around
love this one the most because it reminds wonderful mom. It’s possible. Being a mom the island all day and be able to explore
me of everything I love which is being in is hard in general but it’s even harder when without all of the walking.
nature, with the sun out, in as little clothes we get told what we can and can’t do be-
as possible. cause we are required to be a certain way What’s your go-to guilty pleasure snack?
based on unrealistic standards. When you My go-to guilty pleasure snack would have
When you’re not working, what helps you become a mom you face judgment that to be double-stuffed Oreos. There is re-
decompress and relax? When I am not you have to dress like this or do a certain ally nothing that quite compares to the fill-
working I love to spend my time traveling job, and that shouldn’t be the case. You ing stuffed inside of those two chocolate
and being by the water; just writing in my should still be allowed to flourish and au- cookies.
journal. I feel the most at peace when I am thentically be you.
by the water because I love the sounds of What is the absolute worst thing a man
the waves and the tranquility that comes What’s the weirdest beauty tip or trick can do to completely put you off? I abso-
with lying in the sand. you’ve picked up? For me personally, I am lutely hate it if a man is inconsistent. When
not into beauty products very much. I love one day you wake up and he is picture per-
What’s the strangest fan encounter staying natural and not wearing too much fect and dreamy and the next he is gone
you’ve ever had? I have not had too many makeup if any at all. I recently found out into the abyss. The first way to get me to

64

MARCH 2024
 65

MARCH 2024
disappear and go cold is by not being
confident in what you want between us.

What advice would you give to aspiring

models? My biggest piece of advice would
be never to be afraid to ask for anything.
The worst that can happen to you is being
told no, or not getting a response. But it
could be life-changing if you are told yes.
So ask that photographer to take photos,
ask that magazine to feature you, ask that
Instagram to post you, ask for that collab.
You never know who will be willing and
able to help you out.

Thanks for taking the time to speak to

us, do you have any last words for our
readers? Thank you so much for allowing
me the opportunity to be on the cover for
March Sweden. I am so thankful for eve-
ryone reading this. If you want to keep up
with me make sure to follow me on socials
my Instagram @VictoriaSnooks and my
Onlyfans @ Snooks so we can stay con-
nected.

MARCH 2024
Playboy Interview

A candid conversation with the preacher and presidential

candidate about his controversial views and the leadership
of black America
WRITTEN BY ROBERT SCHEER PHOTOGRAPHY BY RON SEYMOUR

68
No matter what eventually happens at the Democratic Convention this LQJ IURP ¿QDQFLDO PLVPDQDJHPHQW RI 3XVK WR ³WDLQWHG´ FRQWULEXWLRQV
VXPPHULQ6DQ)UDQFLVFR-HVVH-DFNVRQKDVDOUHDG\ZRQVRPHELJSUL]- from the Arab League? Why does Jackson say the things he says? Is he
es. Since he announced for the presidency last November, the panache, against whites? Is he against Jews? And if not, what is the fuss in the
pace and ever-present controversy of his candidacy have transformed the media all about? Could it be, as the reverend thinks, that he has been sub-
sharp-dressing, eloquent 42-year-old Baptist minister and civil rights ac- MHFWHGWRDGRXEOHVWDQGDUGRIFULWLFLVPEHFDXVHKHLVWKH¿UVWEODFNPDQWR
tivist from a party irritant to a force at large. run seriously for the presidency?
Jackson has been prominent on the national scene ever since his days Given Jackson’s prominence, the answers to those questions will re-
as a college activist in his native South during the 1960s, when he fol- main important long after the election. To try to get some of them, Play-
lowed the call of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., to complete the emancipa- boy assigned Robert Scheer, whose political reporting for PLAYBOY
tion of blacks through nonviolent civil disobedience. Born to segregation ,QWHUYLHZVZLWK-HUU\%URZQDQG-LPP\&DUWHUSUR¿OHVRI1HOVRQ5RFN-
in Greenville, South Carolina, Jackson emerged in his college days as a efeller and Ronald Reagan) is well known to its readers. Scheer, a national
KHURWRWKRVHLQWLPLGDWHGE\UDFLVWVDQG6RXWKHUQVKHULIIVDQGDVD¿UH- reporter for the Los Angeles Times, followed Jackson through the early
brand to those who found segregation less offensive than the turmoil of SULPDULHVDQG¿OHGWKHIROORZLQJUHSRUW
the civil rights movement. “Jesse Jackson is hard to ignore. He is tall, muscular, bright and quick
He was with Dr. King in Memphis at the time of his assassination DQGXVHVDOORIWKDWWROHWDQLQWHUYLHZHUNQRZWKDWKHLQWHQGVWR¿QLVKKLV
and moved forcibly—some thought too forcibly—to provide leadership thoughts. Looking down on the questioner, he rears back and rocks a bit,
to a movement suddenly deprived of King’s overshadowing presence. SXQFWXDWLQJWKHDLUZLWKKLV¿QJHUZKLOHWKHFDGHQFHGVWDWHPHQWVUROORQ
5HWXUQLQJWRKLVEDVHLQ&KLFDJRWRRUJDQL]HWKHSRRUIRUWKH6RXWKHUQ and on until the point to be made is wrapped and delivered. Then, and
Christian Leadership Conference, the then-27-year-old minister came to only then, another question. Jackson takes questions cheerfully but with
EHNQRZQIRUD¿HU\UKHWRULFWKDWGLGQRWDOZD\VVHHPWRMLEHZLWKWKH the air of one who has heard most of them before. And he has. All of his
Gandhian philosophy of nonviolence, which Jackson espouses. adult life has been spent parrying questions about blacks and politics, and
His experiences in the early civil rights movement and later in Push, he knows what he knows. He does not require issues experts, pollsters
WKHDQWLSRYHUW\DQGVHOIKHOSRUJDQL]DWLRQKHIRXQGHGOHIW-DFNVRQZLWK DQGPHGLDDQDO\VWVWR¿JXUHRXWKLVVWDQFH
many admirers and detractors—but few who are indifferent. To many, “Jackson most often listens to a question with his head slightly tilted
especially in the black community, he is talked about with a reverence to suggest a cocked ear and with just the barest hint of a condescending
and adulation that would seem appropriate for a combination of saint and VPLOHDERXWWRÀLFNHUDFURVVKLVRWKHUZLVHSDVVLYHIDFH2QWKRVHRFFD-
rock star. To many others—surprisingly, as much among liberals as in the sions when the question is not familiar, a suspicion as to the interviewer’s
strongholds of white racism—he is seen as a scourge and an opportunist. motives may mark his manner, and the mood can get tense—not threaten-
Now, in the 1984 presidential campaign, Jackson is a player on the ing but suddenly more serious and personal than one had bargained for.
KLJKHVW OHYHO 0L[LQJ %LEOH %HOW PRUDOL]LQJ ZLWK D ¿HUFH FRPPLWPHQW It’s less a matter of intimidation than one of the force of personality and
to dispossessed constituencies—from gays to Indians and, some would presence of someone who’s battle-scarred.
add, Arabs—he sparked the Democratic race with both his candidacy and “Like Ronald Reagan, whom I have also interviewed at some length,
his daring mission to Syria to free a captured airman, Lieutenant Robert Jackson is a veteran of past battles over issues that truly matter to him.
Goodman, Jr. Before Senator Gary Hart began to give Walter Mondale a And while he may—again, like Reagan—occasionally get some facts
run for his money in New Hampshire, columnist Jack Anderson wrote, wrong and exaggerate others, he remains committed to core beliefs.
“The Reverend Jesse Jackson, bless his heart, has succeeded single- “For Jackson, those beliefs revolve around whatever he feels is neces-
handedly in lifting the Democratic presidential race out of the terminal sary for the advancement of blacks, and while one may take issue with
doldrums that threaten to bore us all to death.” Others who concede the his preoccupation or his prescriptions for change, personal exposure to
effectiveness of Jackson’s thundering oratory nevertheless charge that his the man did not, in my case, support a cynical view of his level of com-
style smacks of demagoguery. “In passing out misinformation, the Demo- mitment.
crats now have their own Ronald Reagan,” wrote the Washington Post’s “Both Jackson and Reagan are clearly in the political arena to do seri-
Richard Cohen. ous battle over the social direction of this country, no matter what other
Like it or not, Jackson reached center stage, representing not only material and psychological rewards may be provided by the exercise. For
blacks but a much larger constituency within the Democratic Party. As both, it has been a long and not always fashionable political struggle.
The New York Times put it recently, “Jackson is now making history, “Neither gentleman is of the school of the modern politician touted by
not as a black presidential candidate but as a ‘serious’ black presidential hip pollsters and committed only to winning. Jackson and Reagan may
candidate. That development alone is likely to have far-reaching effects say and do wrong things, but when they do, it is with the altruistic aplomb
RQWKH$PHULFDQSROLWLFDOVFHQHE\HQHUJL]LQJWKHEODFNYRWHDQGE\DOWHU- of the true believer certain of the virtue of his ends and convinced that he
LQJWKHSHUFHSWLRQVDPRQJZKLWHVRIEODFNFDQGLGDWHVIRUHOHFWLYHRI¿FH´ is not driven by personal political ambition. And when they do commit a
%XWWKH7LPHVLQGLFDWHGWKDWWKHUHDOSUL]HOD\EH\RQGHOHFWRUDOSROLWLFV JUDQGJDIIHWKH\¿QGLWQH[WWRLPSRVVLEOHWRRIIHUDSURIRXQGDSRORJ\
and concerns, involving nothing less than the mantle of black leadership, because soul-searching and doubt are simply alien to their makeup. But
one passed around or, more accurately, grasped at but never comfortably they are not shallow. Both have paid their dues, anguishing over causes
worn since an assassin’s bullet killed King 16 years ago. What Jackson rather than over the political style of the moment.
“really seeks to be,” the Times noted, is “the nation’s premier black lead- “There the similarity ends. Indeed, what is perhaps most interesting
er: a mover and shaker with a constituency within the Democratic Party.” about Jackson is that he has risen to challenge the assumptions of Reagan-
Jackson denies that he wants to be the predominant black leader and ism as a political philosophy more directly and energetically than has any
GXWLIXOO\WLFNVRIIWKHQDPHVRIWKHVFRUHVRIHOHFWHGEODFNRI¿FLDOVKH of the other candidates.
holds in high esteem. But whatever his intentions, the enormous publicity ³$IWHUKRXUVRILQWHUYLHZVZLWK-DFNVRQ,IRXQGP\VHOIIDQWDVL]LQJ
surrounding his campaign, as well as his proven ability to attract what about Reagan’s taking my place in the room. Let them argue about the
he calls the Rainbow Coalition of supporters—including many whites— WUXO\ QHHG\ DERXW DI¿UPDWLYH DFWLRQ FLYLO GLVREHGLHQFH DQG WKH7KLUG
makes Jackson a man for more than just this electoral season. (In fact, this World. Let them match programs for ending poverty and crime in Chica-
LVKLVVHFRQGDSSHDUDQFHLQWKH3OD\ER\,QWHUYLHZVORW+LV¿UVWZDVLQ go and bringing peace to the Middle East. Do we need more weapons or
November 1969, just over a year and a half after King’s death.) fewer? More social programs or fewer? Is God, whom they both invoke
Jackson watching is not a placid journalistic assignment. The rever- incessantly, a staunch free enterpriser or a closet liberal? Now, that would
end has a lot of ups and downs, with contretemps dotting his candidacy be the debate for this election year.
at almost every stop. “But Jackson will not just go away after this election any more than
-XVWZKDWVLJQL¿FDQFHVKRXOGEHDWWDFKHGWRWKHYDULRXVFKDUJHVUDQJ- Reagan did following his many times out on the hustings. Both have a

69

MARCH 2024
 constituency. Jackson may not have succeeded in building his Rain- were some Jewish people holding up a big 12-by-12-foot sign saying,
bow Coalition, but his campaign has demonstrated his basic appeal to the Hymies Love Jesse.
growing number of black voters. Thus, what Jackson has to say in this Historically, the word kike was equivalent to the word nigger, which
campaign and in this Interview warrants serious attention, for it will likely is a very offensive term. If I had been angry and said, “You kike,” or,
present itself again and with even greater force in the future.” “You nigger,” that would have been different. But it was blown up into
PLAYBOY: As we speak, it looks as if either Hart or Mondale will be something far beyond— Well, we’ll almost have to put the word Hymie
the Democratic nominee. What do you see as the difference between you into the dictionary now, because it’s taken on so much meaning. And I do
and them? regret the pain it caused people because of the way the press played it.
JACKSON: As Democrats, we share many common social values. But I The disadvantage was the personal hurt to these people. But there’s
believe they represent liberalism, which is advocacy for change; I repre- been an advantage: There is now a dialog under way that hasn’t existed in
sent liberation, which is action for change. They hoped Goodman would DGHFDGH$QGWKDW¶VDFRQVRODWLRQ,¿QGVXI¿FLHQWEHFDXVHVWURQJOHDG-
be released from Syria; I went to get him. They supported the Voting ers are not perfect, we’re public servants. When Jimmy Carter made his
Rights Act; I marched for it. They call for U.S. corporations to become VWDWHPHQWDERXWHWKQLFSXULW\SHRSOHIRUJDYHKLPEHFDXVHWKH\UHDOL]HG
more responsive; I had to boycott them to get change. They say they have WKDWGLGQ¶WUHÀHFWKLVEDVLFFKDUDFWHU/DVWVXPPHU7HG.RSSHOUHIHUUHG
no objection to a woman as vice president; I say, “Put one on the ticket.” to some politicians as “Amos and Andy.” It was an unfortunate use of
PLAYBOY: But will those differences stop you from backing either of words, but that’s not his basic character. Just recently, Bill Moyers re-
them if one is the Democratic nominee? IHUUHGWRPHRQ79DVWKH³.LQJ¿VKRIEODFNSROLWLFLDQV´:KHQ,SRLQWHG
JACKSON: No. I’m not trying to impeach their characters; I’m just RXWWKDWWKHZRUG.LQJ¿VKPLJKWEHVHHQDVLQVHQVLWLYHEHFDXVHRIWKH
drawing a distinction. I’m saying that within the framework of the Demo- .LQJ¿VKFKDUDFWHULQWKH$PRV¶1$QG\VKRZKHVDLGKHZDVUHIHUULQJWR
cratic Party, I’ve paid heavier dues in the struggle for social justice than Huey Long. You see how sensitive people can be?
either of those two men. PLAYBOY:<RXVDLGWKHÀDSRYHU\RXUUHPDUNVKDGDJRRGVLGHWRLW
PLAYBOY: However you fare in the presidential race, your Rainbow Are you serious?
Coalition calls for unity among the poor, women, the handicapped, gays, JACKSON:,KRSHZHFDQVHL]HWKHPRPHQW7KHUH¶VEHHQPRUHLQWHUHVW
people of all colors. Is that realistic? in meetings between blacks and Jews in the past eight or 10 days than
JACKSON: Yes. I guess what’s impressed me, what’s almost seemed there has been in the past eight or 10 years. But, of course, until now,
miraculous, is that there is less static about the Rainbow Coalition than it’s just been a war of quotations—who said what last, which is very un-
there was about integration. Somehow, many groups are very threatened healthy. It’s been a period of great agony, but I think we’re going to come
by integration—it conjures up so many fears and negative conceptions— out of it.
yet the message in the Rainbow Coalition is the same: It’s just that you can PLAYBOY: You’ve portrayed yourself as a potential mediator among
EHEODFNEURZQ\HOORZRUUHGRUJD\RUULFKRUSRRUDQG\RXVWLOO¿WLQWKH Jews, blacks and Arabs. Especially now, though, would most Jewish
spectrum without being threatened. groups ever accept your position on the Mideast?
PLAYBOY: You’re claiming to be more than a black candidate. Why are JACKSON: Well, I may never accept the Israeli position on South Afri-
you optimistic that white America would support a black man? ca, either; but we can talk. We can agree to disagree. You know, a number
JACKSON::HOOVLQFH5HDJDQWRRNRI¿FHWKHQDWLRQKDVXQGHUJRQH of Jewish people here and in Israel have written to me, asking for help in
DGHYDVWDWLQJSHULRGRIUDFLDODQGFODVVSRODUL]DWLRQDQGDNLQGRIZLOO- getting their relatives out of Syria. Okay? Now, the people who don’t talk
IXOSHUSHWXDWLRQRIWKHJHQGHUJDS0RVW$PHULFDQV¿QGWKDWGLVWDVWHIXO with their perceived enemies can’t help them; isn’t that right? Mondale,
7KHVHQVHRIVHO¿VKQHVVDQGJUHHGRIWKHSUHVHQWDGPLQLVWUDWLRQKDVVHW Glenn, Hart. The idea of not talking with a friend’s enemies is not a wise
a climate in the country that most Americans don’t identify with in their strategy. The biggest contribution one could make to Israel would be to
heart of hearts. So there is a search now by people to go another way, JHWKHUQHLJKERUVWRUHFRJQL]HKHUWRHQGWKHDUPHGVWUXJJOHWRHQGWKH
to seek a new course. When I walked through the plant of The Boston holy war. And now, through all the chaos and confusion, I emerge with
Globe recently, you could hear workers, many of whom had Archie Bun- the capacity to talk to both sides.
ker as a frame of reference, cheering, telling me, “I’m glad you brought PLAYBOY: Including the P.L.O.?
the boy [Lieutenant Goodman] back home!” We are growing up as a na- JACKSON:,WKLQNWKH3/2KDVWRUHFRJQL]H,VUDHO¶VULJKWWRH[LVW%XW
tion. Those guys probably didn’t want Sam Jethroe to play baseball for I don’t think either Israel or the P.L.O. can initiate the talks that would be
the Boston Braves, probably heckled Sam Jones and K. C. Jones when UHTXLUHGIRUHDFKVLGHWRUHFRJQL]HWKHRWKHUWKHZD\,VUDHODQG(J\SW
they played for the Celtics. And though Boston went through a period of couldn’t do it themselves. They needed a mediator. If we had the strength
/RXLVH'D\+LFNV±W\SHSRODUL]DWLRQWKHFLW\REYLRXVO\SUHIHUVWKHLPDJH of leadership to negotiate that strategy, the P.L.O. would change its posi-
of Mel King and the Rainbow Coalition to that of Hicks and the rocks WLRQRIQRWUHFRJQL]LQJ,VUDHO
and the buses. PLAYBOY: Even though it’s written into the covenant of the P.L.O. that
Another reason the Rainbow Coalition isn’t threatening is that there Israel should be destroyed?
are no psychological or sexual hang-ups, as there are in integration. There JACKSON: Nasser made a statement 20 to 25 years ago about driving
are deep-seated fears in this country, perpetuated over a long period of the Jews into the sea, and the nation of the guy who made that state-
time, that are based on sexual myths, on the fear of interracial marriage. ment has now signed a peace treaty with Israel. If you keep digging up
It’s the old Archie Bunker thing: We can work together and you can play last year’s rhetoric about a given situation, you’ll never move forward to
EDOOZLWKXVDQGJRWRVFKRROZLWKXVHYHQVRFLDOL]HZLWKXVEXWGRQ¶W forgiveness and redemption. There have been some pretty cruel things
come home with us. The Rainbow Coalition is made up of independent said about each other by both sides, which is standard for people who are
groups—you don’t have to lose your group’s identity to another group. It’s angry at each other.
not threatening on the personal level. PLAYBOY: Which brings us back to another of the things you said about
PLAYBOY: One group that does feel threatened is the Jewish commu- Jews. Why did you say you were tired of hearing about the Jewish holo-
nity. In fact, a couple of your statements about Jews have nearly derailed caust?
your campaign. Let’s settle them once and for all. Why did you use the JACKSON: It was a statement taken completely out of context. In 1971
word Hymies in referring to Jews? or 1972, I was in Africa with my wife and the Staple Singers and Roberta
JACKSON: It was unfortunate. That word never had a negative meaning Flack. We decided to go see where the slaves had been kept. We were
to it, either politically or religiously. It was an unfortunate use of words, taken to some caves. They were damp and ugly, and what had started
but no different from someone’s saying he’s going up to Harlem to see out as a tourist visit became quietness and then singing and prayers and
“Mose” or “Mosela.” You know, said with a lighthearted ring. And at least tears. By the time we got out at the other end, there was a kind of anger, a
VRPHSHRSOHUHDOL]HGWKDW:KHQ,VSRNHUHFHQWO\LQ7DOODKDVVHHWKHUH real resentment among us. But then I said to my wife, “You know, if we

70

MARCH 2024
rehearsed this slavery ritual every day, or often, we could develop the kind ment.
of resentment toward the blacks who sold us and the whites who captured PLAYBOY: You’re talking about the leftist coalition in Israel—but a lot
and then enslaved us that would never lend itself to making human pro- of them would consider themselves Zionists, too, so you wouldn’t get
gress. I would just be so bitter!” much support there. It seems as if politicians get deeper in trouble when
Later, in a private talk with two guys, I referred to the Jewish holo- they try to explain things away instead of just admitting they made a mis-
caust in that context. We had seen several references to the holocaust on take. Wouldn’t it be better to just say that your use of the phrase poisonous
television that year, and I said that while I appreciated the memory of it as weed was a lousy choice of words?
a basis for saying “Never again,” we really had to move beyond that and JACKSON: I don’t know what your point is. You almost sound as if
not linger at the graveside. That was analogous to our own experience, you’re trying to chastise me, which I’m beginning to resent. I’m trying
having come through the holocaust of slavery, having lost 30 million or to say, as clearly as I can, that my point is that Zionism and Judaism are
40 million people in slavery. My remark was one of personal experience, different things. Why keep wrestling with it?
not one that was designed to be negative or hostile. That was the context PLAYBOY: That’s precisely our point. You keep wrestling with a phrase
of that statement, because I, too, am a member of a race that has known that most people think is anti-Israeli, if not anti-Semitic, instead of saying
a holocaust and has known subjugation in this land, not just as a matter it was a mistake and being done with it.
of history but as a matter of personal experience. I look at those striped JACKSON:,¶YHVDLGWKDWDERXW¿YHWLPHVDQLJKW,PHDQWRWKHH[WHQW
XQLIRUPVWKDWWKH-HZVZRUHLQWKRVH1D]LFDPSVDQG,UHFDOOWKDW,JUHZ to which it’s offensive, I regret it, because that was not what my intent
XSZDWFKLQJWKHSROLFHDFWOLNH1D]LVHYHU\ZHHNHQGDQGORFNXSEODFNV was. And I think that the more that journalists like yourself keep dwelling
charging them with vagrancy, making them wear striped uniforms and on that—
putting chains on their ankles. What they really were looking for were PLAYBOY: We’re trying to clear it up, not dwell on it.
street cleaners they wouldn’t have to pay, and they’d sentence a black to JACKSON: Okay. Well, I made a mistake. There is a sensitivity to the
10 days in prison for being drunk on his own porch and stuff like that. So SKUDVHWKDW,XQGHUHVWLPDWHGIUDQNO\<RXVLPSO\ZDONLQWREX]]VDZVE\
LWZDVQ¶WWKH¿UVWWLPH,KDGVHHQWKRVHVWULSHGXQLIRUPV KLWWLQJWKHZURQJEX]]ZRUGV(YHQZLWKPRVWSHRSOH,NQRZZKRDUHLQ
PLAYBOY: Nonetheless, didn’t FRQÀLFW ZLWK -HZLVK SHRSOH RQ D
you also call Zionism a “poison- JLYHQLVVXHWKDWFRQÀLFWLVQRWIRU
ous weed”? the most part philosophical, it’s
JACKSON: Again, it was out
of context. That was said during
"Many whites did, tempo- usually political.
PLAYBOY: That’s true, but
a debate about Zionism, which
is built upon the premise of race,
rarily, what blacks must do since the Peace Now people in
Israel consider themselves Zion-
while Judaism is built upon faith.
Now, there’s been an attempt by HWHUQDOO\²¿JKWIRUHTXDO- ists, they don’t consider Zionism
a poisonous weed. That was what
some to equate the two. But the we were trying to clarify.
state of Israel is not the state of Ju- ity. Some whites say, ‘I JACKSON: I understand.
daism. Zionism is not a religion, PLAYBOY: And if you said to
it’s a political philosophy. Many
Zionists are, in fact, agnostics and
marched in Selma.’ It was one of them, “Zionism is a poi-
sonous weed,” it would be the
atheists. Judaism is built upon
faith and forgiveness and is really
an experience to write home end of the dialog, because they
see themselves as Zionists who
an optimistic view of the future,
and Zionism tends to be much
about. But some of us had are nonetheless in favor of such
moves as returning the West Bank
more narrow than that. Having
said that, I believe Jews have a to stay after the march." to the Arabs.
JACKSON: I agree. And I tend
right to be Zionist politically, but to identify with their politics, be-
one need not equate Judaism and cause I think there is righteous-
Zionism. And I accept the right of ness there, a quest for fair play. I
Israel to exist. The fact is that from a religious standpoint, there is some- think that they will be capable of coexisting with the Palestinians in ways
thing about Judaism that appeals to me. I’m Judeo-Christian; my religious WKDWZLOOEHEHQH¿FLDOIRUWKHPDVZHOODVIRUZRUOGSHDFH7KHWDONVZH
roots are there. There is a kind of boldness, a kind of universality, es- had with them when we were in Israel were enjoyable experiences that
poused in the faith that is eternal. And I just don’t equate the two. have etched a lasting place in my memory.
PLAYBOY: Then what does it mean to say that Zionism is a poisonous PLAYBOY: Do you regret having been caught up in all this?
weed? JACKSON: No, I tremble from the pain of it all, but I see a silver lining
JACKSON: If people lose religious faith, which is eternal, and begin to beyond the dark cloud. The whole period has been a crucifying experi-
put their faith in a political arrangement, which is temporary, well, one to ence for all of us. I think that joy is coming in the morning. It’s almost like
PHUHSUHVHQWVR[\JHQDQGÀRZHULQJDQGJURZWKZKLOHWKHRWKHUUHSUH- \RXKDYHWRJRWKURXJKDFUXFL¿[LRQEHIRUH\RXFDQJHWWRDUHVXUUHFWLRQ
sents the choking of that growth. To the extent that my description was I can feel the stone being rolled away.
offensive, I regret it, because my point is not to be offensive. PLAYBOY: You’ve said that other experiences etched in your memory
PLAYBOY: But to some people, your denunciation of Zionism was an- are responsible for your view of the world. Back when segregation was
other way of denying Israel’s legitimacy. widespread, was there one experience that had a profound effect on you?
JACKSON: Well, to the extent that it was misunderstood, I regret it. JACKSON: Yes. There was a store in Greenville, South Carolina, that
Right now, of course, we’re going well beyond the context we were in was typical of the black South. It was owned by whites, because black
when I said it. Many Jews, as you know, reject Zionism. They see it as people seldom owned any stores, and the owner’s children grew up with
very bad, so it’s not just a personal position I have. And historically, the the rest of us, so you were allowed to play with them. But as they grew to
best experience of the Jewish people has been in their religious faith, the replace their father in business, they began to grow in their father’s ways.
chastising, courageous strength of the prophets who challenged their own They began to take on the likeness of the master. I used to play with the
politicians. I mean, historically, a guy like Menachem Begin would have children of Jack, the store owner.
been challenged far more strongly by the Jewish prophets, and maybe the This particular day, I was in a hurry, because my grandfather was out-
prophetic voice in Israel today tends to be that of the Peace Now move- side and he gave me a nickel to get some Mary Janes and cookies
 or something. There were eight or ten black people in there, and I said, challenge the Democrats in their own primaries, challenge the Republi-
“Jack, can I have a cookie?” He had been cutting bologna or something. cans in the general election, do all of it! Think. I couldn’t have gotten that
I whistled for his attention. Suddenly, he was on me with a gun pointed at reading a book. There hasn’t been any book written on this.
my head. He said, “Never whistle at me again!” The thing that stood out PLAYBOY: So that’s really the origin of your campaign—trying to coun-
in my mind was that the other blacks who were in the store acted as if they ter what you see as Kennedy’s and Mondale’s defections?
didn’t see it. They stayed busy. They had a deep and abiding fear. I was not JACKSON: Yes. I heard about it on the news. I couldn’t believe it. How
so much afraid of the gun as I was of what my father would do. He had just can progressive Democrats make a commitment to Chicago—which is 40
gotten back from World War II, and I knew he had not only a temper but percent black and 15 percent Hispanic and only three percent Irish—and
a mind that had been opened up after being exposed to Europe during the choose two Irish candidates over the black candidate? But I’m not angry
war. He had become more resentful of the system. I knew that if my father now; look what the result was: this campaign. It’s like a child born out of
heard about it, he’d either kill Jack or get killed. So I suppressed it. It came wedlock, as I was—you aren’t angry forever that your father isn’t around.
RXWPDQ\\HDUVODWHU%XWWKDWZDVWKHQDWXUHRIOLIHLQWKHRFFXSLHG]RQH If it’s negative that he’s not there, it’s positive that you were born. So you
PLAYBOY: You’ve kept your own resentments fairly well suppressed focus on the positive and keep on steppin’.
through this campaign. In fact, overall, your views are a lot less strident PLAYBOY: And this campaign, no matter what happens at the conven-
WKDQWKH\ZHUHGXULQJ\RXU¿UVW,QWHUYLHZZLWKXV<RXZHUHSUHWW\WRXJK tion, is positive as far as blacks are concerned?
on the white establishment in 1969. You were only 28 then, right? JACKSON: Blacks will never again be taken for granted. Politics in
JACKSON: Yes. America is quite different tonight from what it was a year ago. Quite dif-
PLAYBOY: You were a kid. ferent.
JACKSON: Yes. In many ways. PLAYBOY: All right, back to your candidacy. As a civil rights activ-
PLAYBOY: How have you changed? LVW\RX¶YHQHYHUHYHQKHOGSXEOLFRI¿FH,VQ¶WLWSUHVXPSWXRXVRI\RXWR
JACKSON: I’ve matured, obviously. People mature or they rot. I’ve run for president? Do you think you’re equipped to deal with substantial
been blessed. A lot of people have allowed me to grow, have been tolerant foreign-policy matters?
of my mistakes. I’ve maintained my will to work, but I’ve needed a lot of JACKSON: The media projection of me as being not involved in foreign
KHOSIURPSHRSOHLQNHHSLQJP\HTXLOLEULXP,¶YHJURZQXSLQDJROG¿VK policy, not aware of what our options are, is a misperception of reality.
bowl, with the temptations and oppressions of this job, learning to use I’ve met with most African heads of state, most Arab heads of state, and
public admiration and prestige with prudence and discipline. I’ve traveled throughout Europe. I went down to Panama, trying to get
PLAYBOY: When you say you grew the Panama Canal treaty through. I made
XS LQ D JROG¿VK ERZO GR \RX PHDQ major presentations on Salt II, trying
you’ve held a prominent position since to get that passed. Our leaders have an
you were young?
JACKSON: Yes. I was a big deal in
"Ultimately, the poor obligation to meet the other leaders of
the world to establish rapport. Every-
home-town football at 13; you know,
being the quarterback and hearing your do not just want lib- body knows that the personal relation-
ship between Kennedy and Khrushchev
name over the loud-speaker. That was a was crucial in that period. All of life re-
kind of public exposure. Then there was
college football and student activities,
eral friends, they want ally does boil down to personal relation-
ships. Legend says that war and peace
all that. And in Greensboro, I became
prominent in the civil rights movement, to be empowered." often start and end in the bedroom. The
woman asks the man, “Are you going to
went to jail as sort of a hero in 1965. So take that from that guy?” So the guy de-
it’s been almost 30 years of that life, clares war. If Andropov and Reagan had
nonstop. There’ve been lots of opportunities and a lot of growing up to do. met each other and communicated and expressed their common desire to
I’m glad I chose this work, glad this work chose me. avoid mutual annihilation, with a real desire to do it, those two men could
PLAYBOY: What do you actually do about the pressure, the tension? have relieved tension in this world, but they didn’t know each other. So
You don’t drink; do you exercise, work out? they talked at each other rather than relate to each other, and that violent
JACKSON: I play basketball sometimes. I read. No, I think. I’ve been noncommunication has us on the brink of disaster.
blessed with a creative mind, you know, and while some people tend to PLAYBOY: It’s your view of the Third World that separates you from
read in their spare time, I think in mine. Reading is looking back and wres- most other leaders in this country. How would you change America’s re-
tling with other people’s ideas. But when you think, you can focus on your lationship with it?
own ideas. A big difference. JACKSON: Well, America looks upon the Third World with a lot of ar-
PLAYBOY: What’s an example? rogance and contempt. Some of our contempt for Third World nations is
JACKSON: 7DNH WKH HOHFWLRQ RI +DUROG :DVKLQJWRQ &KLFDJR¶V ¿UVW based upon their poverty, some of it is based upon their color, some of it
black mayor. Before the election, Walter Mondale came to town to sup- is built upon our relationship with the oppressors of those societies. Some
port Richard Daley’s son, while Ted Kennedy came to support then-mayor of it is based upon our corporations’ exploitative relationship with those
Jane Byrne. In other words, the progressive wing of the Democratic Party nations. The reasons we do this are essentially immoral or contemptuous.
was moving to the right. What could we do? Most people got upset. I said, The Third World is mostly poor, uneducated, diseased, desperate for hu-
³:H¶YHJRWWR¿JXUHDZD\RXWRIWKLV7KLQN+HDUPH"7KLQN´1RZ man rights, desperate for economic development, more inclined toward
we couldn’t just wring our hands and act as if Jack, the old store owner America than toward the Soviet Union. It’s mostly black, brown, yellow,
back in Greenville, were holding a gun to our heads and we couldn’t tell red, non-Christian, non-English-speaking. So why waste all the time on
our daddy. This time, we had to have a plan! Our liberal allies, Kennedy the East-West, U.S.A.-and-U.S.S.R. aspect of the problem?
and Mondale, come riding into town with smoking guns, supporting party PLAYBOY:6R\RX¶GDJUHHZLWK*HRUJH0F*RYHUQWKDWZHKDYHD¿[D-
regulars over the progressive black candidate. Most folks looked at it and tion on communism?
pretended it didn’t happen. But it did happen. If Kennedy and Mondale JACKSON:2KKH¶VULJKWDERXWWKDW$VRSSRVHGWRDI¿UPLQJRXUSRLQW
had had their way, Washington wouldn’t have won. If it had been left to of view, we’ve found ourselves running from another point of view. Any-
them, the rise of the black political movement would have been stopped, ERG\ZKRUHEHOVZHFDOOD&RPPXQLVW,QWKH6RXWKZHZHUH¿JKWLQJIRU
stillborn. So what do you do? You can’t go Republican; that’s too devas- civil rights, basic public accommodations. We were called Communists.
tatingly right wing. Can’t stay with the Democrats as they are, right? So Fighting for the right to vote, we were called Communists. So if the peas-
take them on in the primaries! Aha! The best of both worlds. You can act, DQWV¿JKWWRRYHUFRPHWKHODQGHGJHQWU\FDOOLQJWKHP&RPPXQLVWVGRHV
not make them so. And even when they get desperate—when we refuse martyrs had been as socially acceptable in life as they are in death, they
support because they’re also getting aid from another area—that doesn’t wouldn’t have died the way they did. They were really on the cutting edge
mean that they agree with that other viewpoint. If a man is drowning, he’ll of change; they were engaging in social change, not just in social service.
reach for any raft; it’s his only way of surviving. We should be putting life They were victims of a character assassination that preceded their physi-
rafts into the water rather than toxic waste. cal assassination. The big issue, of course, in the case of King, is that the
PLAYBOY: But communism is a fact of life in some parts of Latin Amer- U.S. government was involved in it. One of J. Edgar Hoover’s memos
ica. What would you do about it? said the government’s purpose was to destroy the black movement and to
JACKSON::HVKRXOGRSHQDGLDORJZLWK&XEDDQGQRUPDOL]HUHODWLRQV stop the rise of the black messiah. Hoover called King a liar and a Com-
Among other things, Cuba is 90 miles away. If we can relate to Soviet PXQLVW*LYHQWKH)%,¶VUROHLQWU\LQJWRGLVFUHGLWKLPLW¶VQRWGLI¿FXOWWR
communism, we certainly can relate to Cuba’s. Also, by ignoring Cuba, believe that it was also involved in destroying him.
we make it bigger; we make Castro bigger than he really is. We allowed PLAYBOY: How?
ourselves to be put in the position of Goliath, with Castro as David, and JACKSON: Well, given Hoover’s personal hatred of him, there is no
the longer we boycott him and he survives without us, the longer it makes limit to what role the FBI may have had in his assassination. James Earl
him the hero of South, Central and Latin America and the Caribbean. For Ray was able to get out of Memphis, and then out of the country, very eas-
the most part, I am convinced, Cubans would rather relate to this country ily. I believe he was the fall guy in a much bigger scheme. King was seen
than to the Soviet Union. Among other reasons, we’re hemispheric part- not only by paranoid FBI agents but by hawks of that day as a threat to
ners. I think we make a mistake in not opening up trade with Cuba. national security. It was absurd, but that’s how they perceived him.
PLAYBOY: What about Nicaragua and the Sandinistas? PLAYBOY: After King’s death, you became very bitter about whites.
JACKSON: I cannot separate the Nicaraguan revolution from the tyr- <RXVDLGLQ\RXU¿UVW3OD\ER\,QWHUYLHZOHVVWKDQWZR\HDUVDIWHU.LQJ¶V
anny of [former dictator@6RPR]DDQGRXULQYHVWPHQWLQKLVW\UDQQ\:H death, that white students didn’t have to worry about poverty, because
VKRXOGUHFRJQL]H1LFDUDJXDZHVKRXOGRSHQXSGLDORJZLWKLWVOHDGHUV their fathers sent them to school and they could avoid the draft; that they
we should stop supporting the rebels militarily, because we’re losing the weren’t really serious about civil rights; they didn’t support Operation
war and losing prestige. We are losing that war and losing credibility Breadbasket and projects of that sort.
throughout the Third World because we’re engaging in that war. We ought JACKSON: Well, many whites in the South did, temporarily, what
to be more patient with Third World nations in their transitions for devel- EODFNVPXVWGRHWHUQDOO\²¿JKWIRUULJKWV¿JKWIRUHTXDOLW\,VHHDORWRI
opment. After all, there was a 10- or 12-year difference between General them today who say, “I went to Selma; I was in such and such a march.”
George Washington and President George Washington. We ourselves had Yes, that was an experience to write home about. But some of us had to
to evolve into a more mature democracy. A substantial number of people stay when the march was over.
got the right to vote 100 years after that. So for us to try to make them do PLAYBOY: Some whites died.
in three years what we didn’t do in 12 years is unfair. And we ought to help JACKSON: Indeed, some whites died. Some blacks died and some
VWDELOL]HWKDWJRYHUQPHQWKHOSFRUUHFWWKURXJKGLSORPDF\DQGWUDGHWKH whites died. As to how I felt after King’s death, I’m not sure I was as
wrongs that are there and not disrupt the people of that government with bitter as I was hurt. I mean, I saw our leadership wasted, and I also saw
an attempted military overthrow. the government turn its back on us. The Johnson Administration, which
PLAYBOY::KHQ'U0DUWLQ/XWKHU.LQJ-U¿UVWFULWLFL]HG86IRU- blacks had voted for and had high hopes for, turned its back on us. That
eign policy—i.e., the Vietnam war—he encountered more controversy caused a great deal of pain. Many of the members of our civil rights alli-
than he’d known as a civil rights leader. Did his experience make it easier ance who had helped became very unkind as we sought to move up. As
for you to speak out? ORQJDVHYHU\WKLQJZDVKRUL]RQWDOLWZDV¿QHEXWWKH\IRXJKWYHUWLFDO
JACKSON: Oh, I’m convinced of that. I remember very well the adverse movement. They wanted to remove the shame of apartheid, but they did
reaction to Dr. King’s decision to come out against the Vietnam war in not want to share the power. The Bakke reverse-discrimination suit was a
,UHDGKLVUHPDUNVLQWKH+LOWRQ+RWHOIRUWKH¿UVWWLPHWKHPRUQ- major turning point for relations in the coalition that made the civil rights
ing he made his speech—all the reasons we should get out of Vietnam. I gains of the ’60s possible.
remember that after the speech, we went on an 11-city tour we’d planned PLAYBOY: Would you use a word such as betrayal about former civil
with Aretha Franklin and Harry Belafonte to raise money for civil rights rights allies?
causes. Well, we broke even in only one city, because Lyndon Johnson put JACKSON: I don’t choose to use that word, only because it would
so much pressure on both black and white Democratic Party structures. not serve a good end. Our friends simply went so far but did not go far
We hit the stage in Oakland—imagine, with both Aretha Franklin and enough. Ultimately, the poor do not just want friends, they want to be
Harry Belafonte—and, unbelievably, the place was only one-fourth full. empowered. And when you start speaking of empowering the poor, then
We went on to Houston. We stepped onto the stage. All of a sudden, there you have to redistribute the power of those who already have it. And some
was gas in the air-supply system and we had to evacuate the auditorium. of those who already had it may have been our close allies.
It was a very violent atmosphere, and it continued that way until King Maybe we had to go through a period of adjustment, moving from
was assassinated. liberalism to liberation. We had to break the dependency syndrome. I re-
Many blacks, some of them his classmates, publicly disavowed him, member in Gary, Indiana, we had a white guy who was basically a lib-
because he really was breaking new ground. He moved us from the civil eral as the mayor. But Richard Hatcher said our time has come, so what
rights struggle to a global outlook on the human-rights struggle. Prior to you had was a struggle between liberals and blacks for the mayor’s of-
that time, it was considered a kind of treason to challenge the country’s ¿FH²FRQVHUYDWLYHVKDGDOUHDG\ÀHGWRZQ$QGDVEODFNVEHJDQWRZLQLW
war policies. King opened up that window for everybody. changed the fundamental relationship. We moved from one born of pater-
PLAYBOY::KLFKEODFNOHDGHUVWROGKLPQRWWRFULWLFL]HWKH9LHWQDP nalism to one of power. But for the most part, blacks in city government
war? and in Congress replaced liberals, not conservatives.
JACKSON: I remember Roy Wilkins of the NAACP, Whitney Young of PLAYBOY: All right, but didn’t black extremists make some pretty large
the Urban League and many other civil rights leaders who castigated King mistakes along the way? Wasn’t there a costly, unnecessary alienation?
for dividing the civil rights movement. But King’s point was, you couldn’t JACKSON: When you have a new life, like a baby coming into the
separate the two—money that had been designated for the War on Poverty world, you’re going to have some pain. After so many years of swelling
was going to the war in Vietnam. XSDVZHKDGWKHZDWHUEUHDNVDQGWKHEORRGÀLHVDQGWKHPRWKHUVLJKV
PLAYBOY: Now that there’s a national holiday for King, do you think and the baby cries. But then you clean up the afterbirth material; you ac-
we tend to remember him for his more acceptable achievements rather cept new life as the reality. I remember when there was so much tension
than for his more controversial positions? DERXWP\UXQQLQJLQWKH'HPRFUDWLFSULPDULHV²LWZRXOGWUDXPDWL]HWKH
JACKSON: All societies emasculate their martyrs in time. If those SDUW\WUDXPDWL]HHYHU\FDQGLGDWHLQFOXGLQJEODFNVWKH\VDLG,W

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would divide the country, they said. But now they see the positive effects. public aid.
The progressive wing of the party is alive again, and the only chance the PLAYBOY: Do you favor government planning to direct corporate ac-
Democratic Party has of winning is with the margin of new voters I bring tivities?
to the banquet tables. The party’s expanding, not dividing. There’s crea- JACKSON::HPXVWH[HUWPRUHLQÀXHQFHRYHUFRUSRUDWHEHKDYLRULQ
tive tension; issues are being raised that otherwise would not be raised. this country—at least commensurate with our investment in those corpo-
We’ve brought an excitement to the campaign and a style of campaigning rations. If we give a corporation a tax subsidy, we must then demand some
WKDWPRELOL]HVSHRSOH6R\RXNQRZVRPHWLPHVRXUZRUVWIHDUVDUHQHYHU return on our investment. If you put R19,200.00 in the bank, you expect
UHDOL]HGDQGZHJURZXSDQGZHPRYHRQ WRPDNH;DPRXQWRILQWHUHVW$EDQNFDQRSHQLQ\RXUFRPPXQLW\WDNH
PLAYBOY:/HWXVPRYHRQWR\RXUZHOOSXEOLFL]HGGHDOLQJVZLWK6\U- your money and then reserve the right to not reinvest in that community.
ia. Although its release of Lieutenant Goodman helped your campaign, There should be a greater sense of economic planning in this country—or
would you agree it’s an extremely repressive country? a more fundamental covenant among labor, business and government.
JACKSON: Oh, it certainly is. Absolutely, you should apply the same Now, planning does not always mean controlling something; it means
standards everywhere, anywhere. GLUHFWLQJ:KHQ5HDJDQWDONVDERXWHVWDEOLVKLQJHQWHUSULVH]RQHVWRHQG
PLAYBOY: You don’t disagree, then, that Syria, Libya and Saudi Arabia urban blight, which is his plan, he does not attach a budget to it, so he is
all have repressive regimes? not serious about it. But it is a plan. Reagan planned to use unemployment
JACKSON: Well, to the extent to which they have them, they must be WR¿JKWLQÀDWLRQWKDW¶VZK\XQHPSOR\PHQWZHQWXSWRDOPRVWSHUFHQW
challenged. It doesn’t serve any good end, it seems to me, just to call them +LVSODQUHGXFHGLQÀDWLRQEXWXQHPSOR\PHQWFRVWWKHFRXQWU\5
repressive. We must make our position clear and link our relationship and billion for every percentage point it went up. There are plans every day;
our support to the enforcement of human rights. If Reagan’s construc- the question is, What are we planning? Right now, we are not planning to
tive engagement with South Africa meant that it would be used to change feed the hungry—there are 3 million more children not nourished; there
conditions there, that would be all right. I think that as a superpower, we are 5 million more people in poverty.
ought to relate to all these countries. But we should then use our leverage PLAYBOY: Do you identify with the European social-democratic
to bring about change, because we will end up on one side of history or tradition?
the other—either with those who are denying human rights or with those JACKSON: I don’t know enough about it to say I identify with it; I
who are supporting them. NQRZWKDW,WHQGWRLGHQWLI\ZLWKSHRSOHZKRDUHPD[LPL]LQJDFRP-
PLAYBOY: All right, but when you accept money from the Arab League, mitment to children and women and poor people, people who are
some people feel you can’t claim you’re ¿JKWLQJIRUSHDFHIRUMXVWLFHSHRSOH
merely supporting human rights for ZKR DUH ¿JKWLQJ IRU WKH FROOHFWLYH
Arabs; you are actually doing busi- good—that appeals to me. But that
ness with some very repressive Arab
regimes, including Syria’s. It’s a contra-
"There is a place to be comes under different labels every-
where, and the label is not as impor-
diction for someone who’s concerned
about human rights to be accepting that between being com- tant to me as the essence of it is.
PLAYBOY: You’ve mentioned
sort of support. women as participants in your Rain-
JACKSON: Well, the fact is, the Israe-
lis are holding people under occupation
pletely pro-choice and bow Coalition. What do women, as a
group, have at stake in the struggle of
and annexing territory and engaging in
expansion, building settlements in vio- completely pro-life." poor blacks?
JACKSON: It is clear that the E.R.A.
lation of the law. At some point, that has will not become a reality so long
to give way to a more democratic rela- DV LW UHPDLQV QDUURZO\ GH¿QHG DQG
tionship with neighbors. dominated by white women. White women, black women, Hispan-
PLAYBOY: We’ll get back to the Middle East, but the heart of your cam- ic women, underprivileged women must see their common interest
paign has been a call for more federal programs rather than fewer. Yet one in the E.R.A. as an economic-rights amendment that protects their
thing we’ve heard from other Democratic candidates this year is that the adulthood as well as their need to have adequate wages and oppor-
social programs of the 1960s that you favored simply didn’t work. tunities to protect their children, because most poor children are in a
JACKSON: Well, the fact is that the War on Poverty really never had a house headed by a woman without a man. In the past ten years, we’ve
chance! The money that was to be directed to rebuild America was spent proved that we can survive without one another, but we’ve not proved
RQ 9LHWQDP 7KDW EURXJKW LQ WKLV QHZ HUD RI LQÀDWLRQ ZKLFK KXUW WKH we can win without one another.
economy. So lunch counters were closing as we were getting the right to PLAYBOY: What is your position on abortion?
sit at them; a cutback in funds for education came generally about the time JACKSON: I do not favor a legal ban on abortion, but it’s a complex
ZHZHUHJHWWLQJWKHFKDQFHWRJHWLQWRVFKRROVLQWKH¿UVWSODFH6RFLDO issue. There is a place to be between being completely pro-choice
progress was taking place at the same time as the collapse in the auto, and completely pro-life. Part of my problem with it is my sensitivity
steel, electronics, rubber and textile industries. So we got the right to vote about just how precious children are who are born in the lower eco-
at about the time we lost our jobs. We got the right to vote for politicians, nomic strata. If my mother had had to make a case for her economic
but we don’t have the right to vote on whether or not the plants will close. stability before having a baby, I wouldn’t have been born—or if she’d
PLAYBOY: You once were a strong advocate of putting pressure on pri- had to prove there was a father in the home, which she couldn’t. I’m
vate business. Have you put that aside for now? sensitive to what that represents. On the other hand, my daughter was
JACKSON: 7KLV LV D SROLWLFDO PRYHPHQW DQG ZH¶UH ¿JKWLQJ IRU RXU born six months after my wife and I were married. I understand the
share of participation in the public economy. But that does not mean that tensions and dynamics in these questions, so I think that to demand
we can let private America off the hook. After all, the private economy is WKDWSHRSOHKDYHXQHTXLYRFDOVWDQGVRQWKHLVVXHMXVWSRODUL]HVWKLQJV
a three-trillion-dollar economy, and it has been crueler to women, His- It’s strange: One group says, “We love babies so much, we insist
panics, blacks and Asians than the government has. These corporations that people take no measures to prevent their being born.” Another
have denied entry, they have denied promotions, they refuse to share in group says, “We love babies so much, they must be born under any
contracts for trade. They’ve gotten government subsidies in taxes, gov- circumstances.” Yet another group says, “We love babies so much,
ernment contracts without obligation. If I were to list a series of priorities they should arrive only under certain circumstances—certainly not
IRUEODFNDQGSRRUSHRSOHWKH\ZRXOGEH¿UVWWRRZQDSULYDWHEXVLQHVV without parents’ having proper housing and job and so forth.” So
second, to have a private job; third, to have a public job; fourth, to have which group loves babies the most?

74

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 One solution is to begin serious education in the formative years kinds of equal combinations—the secular and the spiritual. I think
on the power of your body. The controversy over abortion is a little that in some sense, PLAYBOY has had this strange combination of
like the question of nuclear war—do you react the day after or do the universal appeal of sex on the one hand and its challenging intel-
you take measures the day before? Educate the kids the day before lectual appeal—these classic Interviews—on the other; it attracts an
and you’ll reduce the chances of a day after. On the other hand—it interesting, an unusual mix of people. It’s similar to this country’s
gets so strange!—what does it mean to be pro-life, to say you love strength: Many people who take pride in the freedom of our secular
life so much, and then vote against prenatal care, health care, food VRFLHW\UHMHFWWKHIDFWWKDWWKLVLVDVHFXODUVWDWH7R¿QGDEDODQFH²
stamps? So it’s easy to play one crowd off against another. It’s ring- that’s the challenge of the miracle of the American experience.
LQJSHRSOH¶VEHOOV2XUMRELVWR¿QGWKHWUXHFRPPRQJURXQGEHWZHHQ PLAYBOY: Back to more mundane matters. You’ve expressed some
pro-choice and pro-life. bitterness about how the press has treated you—
PLAYBOY: You’ve tried to enlist gays in your coalition. But you are JACKSON: I’m not sure I’m bitter about it. People generally are dis-
a Baptist minister, and many Baptists regard homosexuality as a sin. trustful of the American press, because each night, for the most part, a
Isn’t that right? handful of journalists impose their will on the American public. Most
JACKSON: Well, there’s a growing maturity among clergymen and places you go, if you make any kind of joke or crack about the press,
a belief that we should allow God to be the ultimate judge. We must people start laughing or hissing or booing, because it’s as if they don’t
support freedom of choice, but we must remind people that they must have a way to strike back.
live with the consequences of their choices. God gives us freedom of PLAYBOY: Do you feel your ties to the Arab world have been un-
choice—that’s why you have so many different denominations—and fairly picked on? When the issue of payments by the Arab League to
people have the right to be religious or not religious. Push came up on the front page of The New York Times, some people
PLAYBOY: Well, we do and we don’t. You know, we had Jimmy around you felt that it was done deliberately. They claim The New
Carter, who told us he prayed 20 or 40 times a day; Reagan is talking York Times was out to get you. How do you assess that?
again about making kids pray in school; and here you are, a Baptist JACKSON: I don’t know. Many people at The New York Times it-
minister. Do we ever get enough of you guys? self feel it was vindictive and overkill. After all, when I went to Syria,
JACKSON: One can have a commitment to modern imperatives The New York Times was scathing about me in its editorials. And
without imposing one’s religious persuasion upon other people. I’ve when I brought Goodman back, it was ungracious. It still found some-
found in religion, whether I’m with Hindus or Buddhists or Jews thing wrong with my going to Syria. Even though it was within the
or Christians or Moslems, that I try to law, the Times was less gracious than
search for the common ground, the ecu- President Reagan was—far less gra-
menical spirit. Prayer is a form of dis-
cipline that I engage in and it works for "Reagan exploits cious. As I recall, it did not put the pho-
tograph of Goodman on the front page,
me, but this is a secular nation. We have as most other papers in the world did.
a sacred obligation to welcome the out- our high regard for ,W KDV WDNHQ D GH¿QLWH DWWLWXGH WRZDUG
cast, to feed the hungry and to help the my campaign and what I stand for. [The
needy—that is a sacred obligation—but prayer. He also ex- New York Times did, in fact, run the pic-
our nation lives by the Constitution, not ture of Goodman on its front page.]
by the Bible.
PLAYBOY: Do you have any fears that
ploits our sense of PLAYBOY: Why do you think the
Times has done that?
this injection of religion into politics
will get out of hand?
patriotism." JACKSON: I think it’s self-evident
what the Times is doing. I just hope that
JACKSON: No, my fear is that secu- the warfare will end and there will be
larism and indifference will get out of more congenial relations.
hand. We cannot become too obsessed with caring for the poor and PLAYBOY: Yet your adversaries on the question of your Arab ties
the disabled and the needy and the rejected, but we can become ob- ZLOOVD\\RX¿UHGWKH¿UVWVKRWE\HPEUDFLQJ<DVLU$UDIDWDQGDGRSW-
sessed with making money and measuring strength by military might. ing a strong pro-Arab stance during your Middle East trips.
PLAYBOY: How do you feel about Reagan’s invoking religious ap- JACKSON: When I went to the Middle East, I went to meet with
peals all the time? You’re a Baptist minister, yet he’s the one calling Prime Minister Begin; he refused to meet with me. I wanted to meet
for prayer in the schools. with Arafat as well, and I went to see him to appeal to both sides for
JACKSON: But it’s hypocritical. Reagan’s call is to prayer with- mutual recognition of the P.L.O. and Israel. The price that both sides
out moral obligation. We are taught in the Bible when anyone says, DUHSD\LQJIRUWKHLUUHIXVDOWRUHFRJQL]HHDFKRWKHULVMXVWH[SDQGHG
“Lord, Lord, am I getting to the kingdom?” that a tree shall be known brutality—murder. No one would have thought that Begin and Sadat
by the fruit that it bears, not by the bark it wears. So Reagan, on the could sit around a table and end up with their arms outstretched to
one hand, is for prayer in the schools, while on the other hand, he cuts each other, all because of a personal relationship. That happened only
the school-lunch program. He’s for prayer in the schools but not for because a leader took an aggressive position and saw more advan-
providing food for children who are poor and malnourished. The reli- WDJHVLQSHDFHWKDQLQ¿JKWLQJ
gious mandate is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and liberate the PLAYBOY: Columnist George Will wrote a column that accused
captive and to be judged by how you treat the least of those. And my \RX RI LJQRULQJ 6\ULDQ UHSUHVVLRQ DQG RI DSRORJL]LQJ IRU 3UHVLGHQW
impression is that Reagan exploits people’s high regard for prayer. Assad—
He also exploits our sense of patriotism. When he calls upon us to be JACKSON: , GLGQ¶W DSRORJL]H IRU$VVDG 7KDW¶V QRW WUXH *HRUJH
patriotic, he knows Americans are patriotic and have good reason to Will was so visibly shook up by the success of the Goodman rescue
be. Being patriotic and dying in Lebanon should not be seen as one mission that he was incoherent. He’s not a good source. Will was
and the same. You can be patriotic without being foolish. hoping that we would fail, which meant he hoped Goodman would
PLAYBOY: Incidentally, as a Baptist minister, do you have any remain in jail; if he had remained in jail, he would have been war
qualms about appearing in PLAYBOY? Some in your faith feel some- bait. That meant he could very well have been a stimulus to expand
what puritanical. FRQÀLFWEHWZHHQ$PHULFDDQG6\ULD6R:LOO¶VUHDFWLRQZDVZKROO\
JACKSON: This puritanical age is also a very punitive age. And it LUUDWLRQDO,WUHPLQGVPHRISHRSOH¶VFULWLFL]LQJWKHVXFFHVVIXOPLVVLRQ
has gone to the logical conclusion. It has chosen superstition over sci- of Jesus when he healed a blind man one Sabbath; they complained
ence. But I think our country’s strength has always relied on certain because of the upset—they were not accustomed to reporting such
news. Except for the blind man: He could see. When all of the dust recognition right now. Even though you stress that you are just a ve-
clears away, you can always say that Goodman was once in jail and hicle for the aspirations of your coalition, isn’t it a fact that one result
now he is free. As a result, Reagan sent Assad a letter to express his of this campaign will be that you will be the acknowledged national
thanks, and then Ambassador Donald Rumsfeld met with Assad for black leader?
WKH¿UVWWLPH6RRXUPLVVLRQZDVWRUHOLHYHWKHSUHVVXUH²WRWU\WR JACKSON: No.
open up a dialog—and we were successful. PLAYBOY: It’s not even something you can accept or reject; isn’t it
PLAYBOY: Ever since your Syrian mission, you’ve had a pretty just a matter of name recognition?
large press contingent following you. But we notice that there’s a high JACKSON: No. I’m leading the Rainbow Coalition. This is not an
SHUFHQWDJHRIEODFNUHSRUWHUVGR\RX¿QGLWHDVLHUWRUHODWHWRWKHP" ethnic march; this is a political movement to pull together the strength
JACKSON: Not necessarily. I have nothing to do with it, because I of rejected groups so they may be able to serve more effectively and
don’t assign the reporters. But the black reporters do understand the be served better by their government. That’s what the real point is.
nuances in the black community much better than white reporters do, PLAYBOY: When you were in the civil rights movement, did you
for the most part. The white reporters have much to learn from black think you would have to go around to young blacks one day to get
reporters on certain beats—and vice versa. them to say, “I am somebody,” or did you feel that simply ending
PLAYBOY: Do you think black reporters try to prove themselves legal discrimination would solve the problem?
by showing that they are tough and independent—and then cut you JACKSON: One day, James Meredith came to meet with Dr. King,
down? It was a black Washington Post reporter, Milton Coleman, Ralph Abernathy and some of the rest of us and announced he was
who broke the news about your calling Jews Hymies, wasn’t it? going to lead a march in Mississippi against fear. They thought he
JACKSON: Yes, and it was unfortunate, because it was a private, ZDVFUD]\²DPDUFKDJDLQVWIHDU":KRFDQVHHIHDUZKRFDQWRXFK
colloquial talk. That’s why it fear? But he led the march down
wasn’t even reported directly in the road and got shot. Remem-
WKH¿UVWVWRU\7KHUHZHUHDFRXSOH EHU WKDW" +H ZDV WU\LQJ WR DI¿UP
of other words he may have heard something.
too. Why didn’t he report them? I was standing on the back of a
PLAYBOY: Such as? truck one day in Resurrection City
JACKSON: In that conversation during the Poor People’s March
and others, I heard people laugh- in 1968, and on that particular
ingly refer to “Ay-rabs” and nig- morning, it was raining, Dr. King
gers—not in a derogatory sense, was dead, Robert Kennedy was
almost affectionately. dead, we were really in despair. I
PLAYBOY: But you’re not say- looked down from that truck and
ing that if we heard Gary Hart saw black women, white women,
use the word “nigger” that we Indian women, most of them with
shouldn’t report it, are you? their babies, very few men—one
JACKSON: No, if you heard any boy died—some of them catch-
number of words like that you ing hepatitis, the government had
should report them all. But it’s a turned its back on us; just us, no-
matter of context. All I’m saying bodies! And I told those people,
is that I want people to play by one “Don’t let them break your spirit!
set of rules. Repeat after me: ‘I am somebody!’
PLAYBOY: We don’t understand Say, ‘I may be poor, but I am
what you’re saying. You agree we somebody. I may be on welfare, I
should report it if Hart were to say may be unskilled, I am somebody.
“Ay-rab” or “nigger,” right? Respect me!’ Say, ‘I am more than
JACKSON: Sure. what you see. The me that makes
PLAYBOY: So shouldn’t we me me, my essence, is important; I
report your using the word am God’s child, I am somebody!’”
“Hymie”? And it became a battle cry. People
JACKSON: My point is, you should report all of what is said, so if began to gain strength. Now, around the world, people have chanted
you report private, colloquial use of language about Jewish people, that battle cry.
you should also report your own use of language about black people PLAYBOY: If this presidential race is hopeless in practical terms,
and Arabs. will you feel personally bitter?
PLAYBOY: You mean the reporter used those terms. JACKSON: I don’t have any hatred, I don’t have any bitterness, and
JACKSON: Sure. Except one term is more insulting than the other. I have participated in enough victories in my life to feel good. If we
PLAYBOY:1RWWREHODERUWKLVEXWZKHUHGLG\RX¿UVWKHDUWKHZRUG ZHUHVWLOOLQWKHEDFNRIWKHEXV,PLJKWEHELWWHU:KRZRQWKDW¿JKW"
Hymie? We had big opposition—the Woolworth Company and its lunch coun-
JACKSON: In South Carolina. I grew up all my life using words like WHU²EXWZHZRQWKDW¿JKW:KRZRQWKH¿JKWDJDLQVWWKH*UH\KRXQG
Hymie, Stymie, Buckwheat—all those characters. and Trailways bus policies? Vietnam? Open housing? Who won those
PLAYBOY: Buckwheat was black; Hymie was Jewish. What was ¿JKWV"*HRUJH:DOODFHVWRRGLQWKHGRRUDQGVDLG³6HJUHJDWLRQQRZ
Stymie? WRPRUURZDQGIRUHYHU´:HZRQWKDW¿JKW,Q/LWWOH5RFNZHZRQ
JACKSON: I don’t know. The point is, there was nothing particularly WKDW¿JKW6RUHDOO\WKHUHDUHDVHULHVRIYLFWRULHVWKDWDUHVRLQVSLUD-
offensive about Hymie when it was used. There’s a friend we have tional they should remove any bitterness. Our main hope is that we
called Hymie Johnson. Since this whole thing happened, a number of can keep winning.
Jewish people have called me to tell me that their children and cousins PLAYBOY: Even if you don’t win conventionally? Because if there’s
are named Hymie. People have to stretch to make it offensive. As liter- one thing that’s said about you, it’s that you don’t play politics in the
ate as you are, you had to ask me what it means. Which is the point. standard way, that you’re a wild card. Anything to that?
PLAYBOY: You clearly are the black American with the greatest JACKSON: I don’t know. But wild cards usually beat aces, don’t they?
 PLAYMATE
SENSUAL
DEVIL GODDESS Samantha
Peabody
Instagram ɩĮ­ĉ­ĊĴì­ĨЭÅďÌřďŨÆð­ă

Photography by }ďĨ}ðÐī'ăðĴÐqķÅăðÆ­ĴðďĊĮ
MUA”ÐĊÌřtř­ĊɳɩwìďœďååȲĉ­āÐķĨ

79

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PLAYMATE

80

MARCH 2024
PLAYMATE
PLAYMATE
Describe yourself in three words. Loy- Describe your perfect day off
al, Trustworthy, Caring. when you are not modeling. I am
a homebody and love to relax but
Were you excited to shoot for Play- I love to work out and stay active
boy? I was extremely excited to shoot so whenever I get the chance to
for Playboy I have always admired a go hiking I’ll take it, the outdoors
lot of the women who have posed for brings me a lot of happiness.
Playboy and I am happy that now I get
to be one of them. Do you feel more like a city person
or a country person? I would say I
What was it like starting out as a am a mix of both I love the glam of
model? I was really nervous my very a big city and all of the things you
first photo shoot but my photogra- can do but I also love to be out-
pher made me feel very confident and doors whether it’s hiking, hunting,
the nervousness didn’t last long and I or out riding the trails on a quad.
had a lot of fun.
You could live anywhere in the
What would you consider to be your world, where would it be? New
biggest challenge as a model so York City has always been a love of
far? My biggest challenge as a model mine. A guilty pleasure? Playing video
would be that sometimes I doubt my- games I would say is mine I don’t do it
self when it comes to how I look so I Do you have a secret talent? I can’t often but if you put an Xbox in front of
hold myself back from opportunities. say that I have a secret talent. me I’ll be ready to kill some zombies.

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PLAYMATE
PLAYMATE

Which song is absolutely cer-

tain to make you cry whenev-
er you hear it? I would say the
song “Where do we go from
here” by Asking Alexandria.
That song has a lot of meaning
to me and gets me every time.

What is your favorite word in

any language and what does
it mean? Love would be my
favorite word because it has
the same meaning in every
language so if I say I love you
no matter what the language
is you would know how I am
feeling about you.

Any last words you would like

to share with the readers? I
will finish with a quote from
one of my favorite people
“Find out who you are and do
it on purpose." Dolly Parton.

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 20

Armie Hammer

The new Lone Ranger talks Big Macs

and Vespas and tells how to tie any-
one—including his wife—in knots
BY BRANTLEY BARDIN

PHOTOGRAPHY BY LORENZO AGIUS

Q1: You’re playing the lead in The Lone filming? It was such a narcotic to Clayton Moore, the 1950s TV
Ranger, which debuted 80 years ago, on actor who played him, that after the show ended he fought
radio. You’re 26. Were you even aware of lawsuits that attempted to deny him the right to wear it for
the character when you were a kid? personal appearances.
HAMMER: My dad called me kemo sabe
when I was a kid. I also remember hearing HAMMER: Let’s just say I kept one. [chuckles] And that my wife
Lone Ranger jokes, including one that goes loves it.
like this: The Lone Ranger and Tonto are
riding through the desert, going over dune Q5: You’re a guy who has gone on record saying he’s obsessed
after dune and getting a little lost. They with tying knots and who often carries a rope and a knot guide
go over one last dune and all of a sudden with him wherever he goes. Now we’re hearing about a mask. Is
there are Indian braves all around the top, there anything we need to know about your sex life?
completely circling them. The Lone Ranger HAMMER: Well, if you’re married to a feminist [journalist, restau-
panics, looks at Tonto and says, “Tonto, UDWHXUDQGDFWUHVV(OL]DEHWK&KDPEHUV@DV,DPWKHQLW¶V«,GRQ¶W
we’re surrounded! What do we do?” Tonto know how much we can put here without my parents being embar-
goes, “What do you mean by ‘we,’ white rassed, but I used to like to be a dominant lover. I liked the grabbing
man?” and runs away. of the neck and the hair and all that. But then you get married and your
sexual appetites change. And I mean that for the better—it’s not like
Q2: Let’s talk Johnny Depp. He plays I’m suffering in any way. But you can’t really pull your wife’s hair.
Tonto, and his interpretation of the role It gets to a point where you say, “I respect you too much to do these
is reportedly entirely different from the things that I kind of want to do.”
1950s television incarnation.
HAMMER: In the old TV series, Tonto Q6: And how does she respond?
was really just the Lone Ranger’s slave. The HAMMER: The two us will literally break out laughing in the middle
Lone Ranger would say, “Tonto, go tell peo- RILW¿QLVKXSDQGEHOLNH³:HOOWKDWZDVRGGO\IXQ´6RLWEHFRPHVD
ple this or that,” and Tonto would say, “Me new kind of thing that’s less about “I want to dominate you” and more
do.” In our movie Tonto is a Comanche who about both of us having a really good time. It’s just a different style.
considers himself one of the last spirit war-
ULRUVDQGWKH/RQH5DQJHULVDW¿UVWDGLV- Q7: Where does your obsession with tying knots come from?
trict attorney who has this Lockean idea of HAMMER: Maybe it’s a man’s version of knitting. It’s fascinating
bringing about justice in the West with dis- because you can pick up a piece of rope and know that if you do this,
cussions, not guns. But then he’s ambushed WKHQWKLVWKHQ$%&\RX¶OOJHW;HYHU\WLPH7KHUHDUHQRYDULDEOHV
and shot. Tonto nurses him back to health in rope tying. It’s all logic, and it’s incredibly useful.
and explains that maybe the world doesn’t
work quite the way he thinks it does. What’s Q8: Should we assume those rumors about you playing the
funny and part of the rub between Tonto lead in the movie version of Fifty Shades of Grey are all false?
and the Lone Ranger in our movie is that HAMMER: No one actually offered me the movie, but while I was
even though my character is educated and working on Lone Ranger my agent brought it up, and I said “Nope.” I
believes people should treat one another mean, come on—it’s just mommy porn. I’m not going to sit on top of
justly, he still looks at Tonto as if to say, the laundry machine in spin cycle reading about putting a ball gag in
“Oh, pay him no mind; he’s just an Indian.” someone’s mouth. That doesn’t do it for me.
But then you see Tonto be like, “You have
no idea what you’re talking about,” and sure Q9: You became famous playing the super-rich, super-entitled
as shit, Tonto’s right. Winklevoss twins in The Social Network, the movie about the
birth of Facebook. One of your great-grandfathers was Armand
Q3: We heard Depp placed a scorpion in Hammer, the illustrious oil baron, philanthropist and art collec-
his mouth during the shoot. Is that true? tor. How did you not become a Winklevii type?
HAMMER: That was recreational on his HAMMER: My mom made sure I went to regular schools and not
part, and I still don’t understand it. We had the ones parents send their kids to in L.A. to train them to become
these scorpion handlers on set for this freak- douchebags. The whole time my brothers and I were growing up, her
show kind of scene. Now, these scorpions thing was, “You’re no different or more special than anybody else.”
were so massive that you’d barely be able
WR¿WRQHLQDFHUHDOERZO$IWHUWKHVFHQH Q10: What do you remember about your great-grandfather?
we went to check out the dudes who handle HAMMER: He had a plane, and I remember running up and down
them, and one of the handlers just opened its aisle. He was a really eclectic, funny dude. On his plane he’d have
his mouth and one of the scorpions crawled a giant bowl of caviar, a giant bowl of lobster and then a humongous
out. I was like, “Okay, I’m good!” and bowl of Kentucky Fried Chicken. And he could give a shit about the
walked the hell away. But Johnny said, “I caviar or the lobster; he wanted to eat that fried chicken. That was
want to try that!” and just shoved it into his his happy place. I think that’s probably where I get my love for Mc-
mouth. He’s a total character—a bohemian Donald’s.
and an artist in the truest sense.
Q11: You love the yellow arches?
Q4: Did you find putting on the Lone HAMMER: I have the most guilty, abusive relationship with Mc-
Ranger mask addictive while you were Donald’s. Left to my own devices I’d probably eat four Big Macs a

88

MARCH 2024
 "I used to like to ZHHN0\ZLIH(OL]DEHWKVD\V³<RXFDQ¶W¿OO\RXUERG\ZLWKWKDW
crap—they put eyeballs in it!” And I go, “Sounds good!”

be a dominant Q12: You own a restaurant, Bird Bakery, with your wife in her
hometown of San Antonio. How do you keep yourself in shape
when it’s time to film?
HAMMER: For a male actor the trick is to enjoy life so you know
lover. I liked the you’re always about two weeks away from being “beach ready.” I
mean, do you know how often those people have to think, What if I
eat? It’s a lot, and I don’t want to think about myself as often as it is
grabbing of the necessary to think about yourself in order to keep a six-pack all the
time. I’d rather enjoy meals, order bottles of red wine and eat crème
brûlée at the end of dinner. Then when they call you for a photo shoot,

neck and the hair you just go, “Okay, time to hit the treadmill.”

Q13: Lately horse meat has been finding its way into foreign

and all that." hamburgers——

HAMMER: Which will make me a stallion, so I’ll take it! You know,

89

MARCH 2024
 90

MARCH 2024
 in places like France eating horse is totally Q16: Give us an example of young Armie as a middle schooler.
DFFHSWDEOH (OL]DEHWK VD\V ³<RX FDQQRW VD\ HAMMER: I almost got kicked out of eighth grade for selling Play-
that—you’re the Lone Ranger!” [laughs] But ER\0HDQGWKLVJX\KDGDULQJZKHUHZH¶GEULQJPDJD]LQHVSDFN-
horse meat is apparently delicious and nutri- aged with a bottle of lotion to school—brilliant business plan, wasn’t
tious. It’s funny: When we were eating at a it?—and sell them to the kids for R380.00. Then I got called into a
burger joint with the cowboys in Lone Rang- WHDFKHU¶V RI¿FH +H VDLG ³,¶YH KHDUG \RX¶UH EULQJLQJ LQ WKHVH QXG-
er, I point-blank asked, “Did you ever eat a LH PDJD]LQHV´ , VDLG ³1RSH QRW PH´ +H ZHQW ³6R \RX ZRXOGQ¶W
horse?” And every one of them said, “Oh hell mind if we checked your locker?” Which he then went and did. We’d
yeah, man—that’s good eatin’!” VWDVKHGWKHDFWXDOPDJD]LQHVLQEXVKHVE\WKHVFKRROEXWWKHUHZDVD
ton of lotion in the locker. All he could say was, “Why do you have so
Q14: What else did the cowboys teach much lotion?” I said, “I get dry hands.” [laughs] They couldn’t prove
you? ,ZDVVHOOLQJWKHPDJD]LQHVVR,JRWDZD\ZLWKLW)XQ
HAMMER: When we showed up at cowboy
camp they said, “Here’s your saddle and your Q17: You’re six-foot-five, yet you drove up for this interview on a
bedroll.” I said, “Seems kind of thin for a bed- Vespa. What’s a king-size dude doing on such a pint-size bike?
roll.” The guy got in my face and screamed, HAMMER: The usual joke is that I’m compensating for my huge
“You’re a fuckin’ ranger, man! You lay down penis. We’ll skip that one, though, and say it’s for ease of commute.
and cover up your ass. Are we clear?” I’m obsessed with Vespas—there’s just no faster way to get around
Los Angeles.
Q15: So it was a rough shoot?
HAMMER: They beat the shit out of us, Q18: You and your wife once bought each other guns for Christ-
GXGH:H¿OPHGLQ8WDK&RORUDGRDQG1HZ mas. Are you a big gun lover?
Mexico, among other places, and when we HAMMER: I wouldn’t necessarily say I’m a gun lover—I’m a gun
started it was cold enough to get shut down appreciator. I appreciate their function, the way they’ve evolved and
E\ EOL]]DUGV 7KHQ WKHUH ZHUH ZLQGVWRUPV the mechanics of them. I’m not sure I think anybody should be able
then sandstorms, then electrical storms. In to just walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun, but statistically,
1HZ 0H[LFR WKH\ ODLG ¿YH PLOHV RI WUDLQ if you look at places where people are the most armed, there’s less
track so we’d have our own rail to shoot on, crime. I’m by no means advocating a completely armed society, but at
and Johnny and I spent weeks just running on the same time, I appreciate the recreation of guns. Going out and skeet
top of trains. One day it got to 120 degrees, VKRRWLQJFDQEHDIXQDGUHQDOL]HGWLPH0\ZLIHDQG,ZHUHVXSSRVHG
and I was wearing this wool suit, leather WRJRVNHHWVKRRWLQJRQRXU¿UVWGDWHEXWLWVWDUWHGWRUDLQVRZHHQGHG
gloves, leather mask and hat for 14 hours of up going to a bunch of art galleries and then a porno store instead.
daylight. I got so skinny they had to put new
holes in my belts. Q19: In 2011’s J. Edgar, directed by Clint Eastwood, you play
Clyde Tolson, the associate director of the FBI, opposite Leon-
ardo DiCaprio’s J. Edgar Hoover. No one knows for certain, but
the two were so inseparable that many assumed they were
"My wife and I were lovers. The movie hints that the answer is yes. Where do you
stand?
HAMMER: On set I’d always say, “Clint, what do you think? Did
supposed to go they ever bang?” And he’d go [in a heavy Eastwood whisper], “I don’t
know. I don’t think so.” Then I’d ask Leo, “So what do you think? Did
they ever do it?” And he’d go [takes a deep breath], “I don’t know…
skeet shooting on maybe.” But I was like, “Oh yeah, they did it for sure!” That was my
standpoint, 100 percent. Like maybe one night they had a few too
our first date, but it many martinis and all of a sudden [mimes passing out and waking
up], “Oh! What did we just do? Oh my God, that felt so good! And so
bad! I hate you, I love you, get away from me, get over here!” One of
started to rain so we those things, you know?

Q20: Where do you stand on marriage equality?

ended up going to a HAMMER: I don’t think anybody should be telling anybody else
ZKR WKH\ VKRXOG PDUU\ RU QRW PDUU\7KDW¶V P\ RI¿FLDO VWDQGSRLQW
bunch of art galler- This is social evolution, and the thing with evolution, whether you
look at it in terms of a plant or a species or a mind-set, is it will always
take time. But you just want to say, “The debate’s over, folks. Get
ies and then a porno used to it.”

store instead."

91

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Behind the
Cover: February
1982 A look inside PLAYBOY’s
February 1982 issue

WRITTEN BY
LIZ SUMAN
 In February 1982, Olivia Newton-John ruled the airwaves, the in the early 1970s by way of Esquire—and a re-
San Francisco 49ers were the team to beat and the Commodore ferral from none other than literary and cinematic
64 computer was the new kid on the block. Between the covers giant Nora Ephron.
of our February 1982 edition, PLAYBOY readers discovered For the reader whose athletic tastes veered to-
a cheerleading Playmate, a political revolutionary, intergender ward more time-tested indoor/outdoor sports, the
wrestling and intellectual debates about sex and the sexes. issue also ran an excerpt from Playboy’s Guide
)HEUXDU\ZDVQ¶WWKH¿UVWWLPH3/$<%2<UHDGHUVPHW to Ultimate Skiing, courtesy of Playboy Press, as
cover star Kimberly McArthur. The charming southerner, Dal- well as the 1982 edition of PLAYBOY’s long-
ODV &RZER\V FKHHUOHDGHU ¿QDOLVW DQG DVSLULQJ DFWRU PDGH KHU standing annual franchise, The Year in Sex. And
VL]]OLQJ3/$<%2<GHEXWWKHSUHYLRXVPRQWKDVWKHPDJD]LQH¶V for the working man of the 1980s, a Playboy
January 1982 Playmate before going on to grace our cover. Advisor column weighed in on sex manuals and
“It’s something I’ve been doing all my life,” McArthur told men’s suits.
PLAYBOY of her goal to become a professional entertainer. This issue also included the second install-
“If someone I know is really down, I’ll launch into a brogue, PHQWRIWKHPDJ¶VEX]]ZRUWK\0DQDQG:RPDQ
GR D ZKROH VNLW<RX VKRXOG VHH PH GR D ¿YHPLQXWH YHUVLRQ VHULHVLQZKLFK¿OPPDNHU-R'XUGHQ6PLWKDQG
RI7KH:L]DUGRI2],SOD\DOO “new science” journalist Diane deSimone dis-
the parts.” FXVVHG7KH6H[XDO'HDO$6WRU\RI&LYLOL]DWLRQ

"Violets are McArthur’s simple yet sexy

UHGDQGZKLWH FRYHU ZDV D ¿W-
Believe it or not, that’s not all 1982 had to
offer. Read on to enjoy a visual tour of some of
ting visual introduction to a our favorite vintage February moments, including
blue and roses February issue that was sprin- previously unpublished outtakes that didn’t make
kled with nods to Valentine’s it to the printer in 1982.
are red, but the Day, without hitting readers
over the head with a Hallmark-
best colors lie VL]H KDPPHU 7KH FKRLFH ZDV
a conscious one, cheekily ac-
in the pages knowledged by editors in the
beginning of the issue: “Violets

ahead." are blue and roses are red, but

the best colors lie in the pages
ahead.”
That’s not to say there
weren’t a few romance-centric
pieces in the table of contents.
They included: Stolen Sweets,
a collection of illustrations by British cartoonist Francis “Smil-
by” Smith; At Long Last, Lover, a pictorial featuring Sylvia
.ULVWHOWKHSUROL¿F'XWFKDFWUHVVEHVWNQRZQDVWKHOHDGLQWKH
)UHQFKHURWLF¿OPVHULHV(PPDQXHOOHDQG0RGHUQ6FUHHQ5R-
mance, a tech story with an opening spread that featured Back
to the Future-era electronics surrounding a bare derriere.
Non-V-Day centerpieces included Foxy Lady, a pictorial
starring February 1982 Playmate Anne Marie Fox and a Play-
boy Interview featuring Polish Solidarity labor leader (and fu-
ture Polish president) Lech Walesa, which was conducted in
Poland, in Polish. The subject of that issue’s installment of the
recurring franchise 20 Questions was the soulful-eyed, brunette
bombshell Karen Allen, Harrison Ford’s counterpart in Steven
6SLHOEHUJ¶VER[RI¿FHVHQVDWLRQ5DLGHUVRIWKH/RVW$UN
2WKHUVWDQGRXWV:H:X]5REEHGDK\EULGSLFWRULDOVSRUWV
story that spotlighted a match between September 1981 Play-
mate Susan Smith and “Intergender Wrestling Champion of the
World” Andy Kaufman. The piece was reported by longtime
contributing editor John Blumenthal, who came to PLAYBOY

93
Southern Star

Previously unpublished
outtakes from the pictorial
that led to the issue’s cover.
Subtle differences from the
published version include
shots without the nail polish
that housed the issue’s hid-
den Rabbit Head.

Hidden Hare

Fun fact: Nearly every

cover of PLAYBOY features
a concealed image of our
ubiquitous bow-tied mas-
cot—and February 1982 was
no exception. That issue’s
hidden hare? The ruby-red
Rabbit Head reflected in
McArthur’s nail polish.

Foxy Lady

Twinkle toes, with a twist. A selection of

outtakes from February 1982 Playmate Anne
Marie Fox’s fitness-inspired pictorial, which
was aptly titled Foxy Lady. When Playboy
reconnected with Fox in 2019, she cited this
photoshoot as the experience that jump-
started her future career as a photographer.
“Although I didn’t realize it at the time, my
first experience in front of the camera cata-
lyzed what would become my passion for
working behind it,” she said.

After PLAYBOY, Fox graduated from Colum-

bia University and apprenticed with photog-
raphy legends Brigitte Lacombe and Nan
Goldin. A few years later, she was tapped as
the set photographer for Kenneth Branagh’s
Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein. The specific
assignment? “Capture the daily intensive
prosthetics transformation of the lead actor,
Robert De Niro.”

94

MARCH 2024
Hello, Lover

Scenes from At Long Last, Lover, a

pictorial starring Sylvia Kristel as Lady
Constance Chatterley in the first film
adaptation of D.H. Lawrence’s scandal-
ous 1927 novel, Lady Chatterley’s Lover.
Although Kristel’s breakout role was
years earlier in the 1974 French film
Emmanuelle, her turn as “the love-
starved wife of an impotent nobleman”
marked her first major cinematic role.
And acting chops weren’t the Dutch
star’s only impressive skill: Kristel had
a reported I.Q. of 164 and was fluent in
five languages
 Illos From the Issue

Like many artists who have appeared in PLAYBOY’s pages, John

Kurtz, the mastermind behind the opening visuals for Robert Silver-
berg’s February 1982 fiction piece, Gianni, hailed from PLAYBOY’s
birthplace: Chicago. Kurtz’s work also appeared in PLAYBOY’s sister
publication, Oui magazine.

In addition to playing a defining role in the pop art canon, Patrick

Nagel was a prolific contributor to PLAYBOY’s pages. Case in point:
The triptych above spotlights three Nagel contributions to the
February 1982 issue alone, featured in Playboy After Hours, Playboy
Forum and the Playboy Advisor, respectively.

Service With Style

Although grooming trends in pictorials are a consistently reliable

way to pinpoint the decade in which any given issue of PLAYBOY
was published, readers in search of additional context clues that
this particular issue was published in the 1980s need look no further
than the subtitle of the February 1982 tech story Modern Screen
Romance, which read: “Video’s sexy second generation of cassette
recorders, disc players, cameras and stereo TVs is a seductive sequel
that’s a sure tune-on.”

96

MARCH 2024
 TURN IT UP.

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