How can i syncronizated two conveyors

speed and position

Created by: sakis_1 at: 2/9/2018 9:40 AM (11 Replies)
2/9/2018 9:40 AM

• Hi

I should synchronization the sheets which comes from motor1 to put exactly in the
positions of round chain (motor2).In the cylinder from motor1 there is an encoder
which its possible from me to calculate the speed (rms/min) and after this value to
put as sp speed in the motor2 (motor2 driven from inverter),also i am thinking to
put encoder in the shaft of the cylinder in motor2,not in the motor but in cylider ,to
compare the speed because i understand must be the same.

Between motor1 and motor2 there is a distance around 1.5 m.

Member My question is how can i am sure the sheet will place inside the position in the
round chain? Maybe is not enough only the two motors run in the same speed? I
am waiting for your response
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2/9/2018 1:23 PM

Hello,

for this application you will need to implement an angular synchronism. So

your motor 1 at least needs to be a position controlled synchronous axis and
for motor 2 you need to be able to evaluate its position (as you said by putting
an encoder to it), even when motor2 is speed controlled. So that motor 1 can
synchronize absolutely to the position of motor 2.
Platinum Expert
What are the components you are using? Which drive system? Which PLC?
etc.
 Siemens provides solutions for synchronism applications on different
platforms (e.g. SIMATIC S7-1500T, SIMOTION, SINAMICS S120).

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Technology Team
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Application consulting and pre sales support for SINAMICS, SIMATIC
Technology, SIMOTION, SIMOTICS and MOTION CONNECT

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2/9/2018 2:16 PM

• sakis_1 Hi

Motor1 belongs in an compaq machine which i cant change anything,this give me

one TTL encoder from cylinder motor1 for synchonization with our round chain
motor2.Our round chain has an toshida freq convert,and i am in the fase
to choise the materials to implemant this task.

For this i am thinking first to take an s7-1200 (if you have to suggest me
something else tell me) which can read two ttl encoders (one from the other
machine and one from our chain) .After that i calculate the speed from motor1
cylider which will be the sp speed to motor2 (with pid control) and the AO control
the inverter of motor2, but how can i also with speed control, control also the
Member position of motor2?this is the point, because i dont know when both machines run
with the same speed what happen with the posotion sheet in motor2 ,there is
same formula to do this?
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2/9/2018 2:43 PM

• Technology Team Hello,

Ok, I see you are only controlling Motor 2, I understood that wrongly.

Nevertheless my thinking is that you need to control Motor 2 in a position

controlled way and not only speed controlled. Because Motor 2 needs to be
always at the right angle when the material comes from motor 1. I would
suggest to evaluate the position of the encoder that is attached to motor 1 at
your PLC and make a synchronism with motor 2 to the leading value of this
Platinum Expert
encoder value from motor 1.

The most important point is to get the position information of motor 1, so that
you can synchronize to that signal with motor 2. Therefore I am not sure if a
1200 PLC will be sufficient for that application.

I would suggest to contact your local Siemens Sales partner that can provide
the best solution to you. I just want to avoid that I understood your task and
Joined: 10/11/2006 the machine not correctly and suggest the wrong hardware to you.
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2/9/2018 3:03 PM

• sakis_1 Hi and thank you

except the hardaware forget it ,my thinking to use pid to adjust the speed
between two motors is correct ?if i take the correct and the prεcise speed from
motor1 its possible to run the mortors with same speed?do you have some advice
when archieve the some speed how can i at the some time to have and correct
position?

Best Regard
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2/9/2018 3:03 PM

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2/9/2018 3:44 PM

• Technology Team Hello,

just giving the same speed will not work, as the actual speeds of the drive will
not be exact for 100% for all the time. So running a long time 2 drives with the
same speed setpoint, the drives position difference will get bigger and bigger
due to noises on the actual speed. Only an overlaid controller can handle to
keep both drive's positions without difference. And in my understanding this
can only be a position controller. (maybe this is what you mean by PID
Platinum Expert controller). And the position controller is fed by a synchronous axis
technology object for example.
I don't think it is easy to just take a standard PID controller, as the positions
are modulo corrected values, because your drives continuously move
forward. So the position must be corrected from time to time (modulo
correction). And if for example one axis makes the modulo correction earlier
than the other one, you will get a very big control difference at your PID
Joined: 10/11/2006 controller. So I would not know how to handle that, maybe someone else
Last visit: 7/13/2021 knows.

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2/9/2018 7:15 PM

• Ste39
sakis_1

Hi

I should sychronazation the sheets which cames from motor1 to put exacly in the
posotions of round chain (motor2).In the cylinder from motor1 there is an encoder
which its possible from me to calculate the speed (rms/min) and after this value to
put as sp speed in the motor2 (motor2 driven from inverter),also i am thinking to
put encoder in the shaft of the cylinder in motor2,not in the motor but in cylider ,to
compare the speed because i understand must be the same.

Platinum Member
Between motor1 and motor2 there is an disance around 1.5 m.
My question is how can i am sure the sheet will place inside the position in the
round chain?Maybe is not enough only the two motors run in the same speed?I
am waiting for your responce
Joined: 1/21/2013 Hello,
Last visit: 5/24/2021 seeing the photo: is a varnishing machine and oven from LTG, Billhoefer, or
Posts: 4569 someone else?
Rating: have also to change the angle from master/slave?
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2/9/2018 7:17 PM

• Jeff Casagrande To further add to Tech Team's wonder answer, you are not speed controlling,
you are position controlling by adjusting speed. With a continuously changing
Posts: 1529 position, this is almost impossible with a PID alone. The difficulty is processing
the reference and feedback as they are constantly changing.
Rating:
(195) A T PLC (S51500) that does multiple axis synchronization. SIMOTION, a true
motion controller would even be better. This can also be done within an S120
using CFC (there are some examples).

None of this is trivial.

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 • Msorich Studied all the post written here,

Considering that synchronization of gears is broadly applied in industry. That's not

a story (your topic).

There's no need to purchase pricey S7-1200/1500 and S120, at once.

There are various ways to do that. Just you need to select most appropriate, so to
speak, price/functionality.

First, you need to consider simpliest variants and try to implement that to the
Gold Member
existing facilities.

First things that came into my mind;

Joined: 6/28/2017 • synchronization by means of induction sensors and light barriers and
Last visit: 6/21/2021 speed setpoints based on PIDs. it works perfectly for conveyer's
synchronization;
Posts: 652
• usage of one encoder as a reference signal for the second drive +
Rating: auxiliary control by means of induction sensors and light barriers;
(35) • usage of two encoders where first one is reference signal for the second
drive and second encoder is used as feedback for the seconf drive
speed set point + auxiliary control by means of induction sensors and
light barriers;
• If you have different angular speeds of mech gears by same motor's
speed, then you need calculate (or figure that out experimentally) an
ratio, then keep the speed stable accordingly to the found ratio +auxiliary
control by means of induction sensors and light barriers;
sakis_1

but how can i also with speed control, control also the position of motor2?this is
the point, because i dont know when both machines run with the same
speed what happen with the posotion sheet in motor2 ,there is same formula to
do this?

As far as I know if there's no offset error there won't be any actions to change
motor's speed.

To dig deeper I failed to see the point in the absence of detailed information on
the mech facilities which are used in the project.

hope this will give you an idea.

Msorich

Last edited by: Msorich at: 2/11/2018 9:45:38 AM

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2/12/2018 7:09 AM
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• sakis_1 Hi

Yes Ste39 its an varning machine with oven

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Hi

an information,the machine which give me the encoder value ,it is using fm352
cam to read the encoder and maybe has the cam profile.So if i use the same cpu
(315-2 pn/dp ) its possible to find out the value from the encoder (motor1) which i
need for me to calculate the rpm,and i put another fm352 for the new encoder
(motor2)?

Best Regard
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2/12/2018 7:09 AM
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2/16/2018 6:37 PM
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• Ste39
sakis_1

Hi

Yes Ste39 its an varning machine with oven

Hello sakis_1,

I have 6 lines like that, I made them with Lenze 9300ES and you do it with two
9300 with the resolver in the respective electric motors and with two sensors that
make the phase "Zero point" plus a cable from X10 "master" to X9 "slave"
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between the two for the passage of the "frequency" (the simplest). Obviously you
have to make the logic. With Lenze you already have everything in the simple
drive without additional boards. Shortly since the 9300 will disappear I will start to
convert them with the 8400 TopLine also this does not need any additional card,
you already have everything. For Lenze 9300 you need "GDC" software and for
Joined: 1/21/2013 8400 you need the "Engineer" software.

Last visit: 5/24/2021

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How to Synchronize Motors with

Encoder Feedback
Many applications require the synchronization of two or more motors, including gantries,
printing lines, cranes, and conveyor systems. Effectively synchronizing motors requires
encoder feedback on each motor.

There are three types of motor synchronization:

• Velocity Matching
• Angle matching
• Torque matching

Motor Synchronization Methods

There are three major approaches to synchronizing a pair of motors:

Synchronize 2 Motors with A Single Drive

Drives are available that are designed to power multiple motors. Each motor is
equipped with its own encoder. The multi-axis drive incorporates multiple I/O boards to
accept feedback from each motor. Algorithms within the drive apply feedback to drive
the differential to zero.

Although this technique can be used successfully with very closely matched motors, it is
generally not the most effective approach. Multi-axis drives typically consist of a power
bridge for each axis, managed by a power controller. This design is analogous to putting
multiple drives into a single package, with the same issues of power consumption and
thermal management. At the same time, it lacks the flexibility and levels of control that
would be provided by standalone drives. Discrete drives are more effective.

Synchronize Motors via Master-Slave Architecture

Today’s smart drives feature the processing power and memory required to not just
provide commutation commands to the motor but to act as controllers in their own right.
When connected in a master-slave architecture, these drives can close velocity and
position loops, making them suitable for synchronization.

Master-slave architectures require bidirectional or ring-based network topologies that

communicate over digital buses with short cycle times and minimal latencies. The
specifics vary from protocol to protocol. In an EtherCAT system, for example, the drive
on the master axis sends a telegram to the slave drive, providing it with a motion
command and interrogating it for encoder feedback. In the event of a slip or change in
one motor, the encoder provides feedback, allowing the system to compensate and
maintain the desired speed or position.

Use One Drive per Motor, with PID Loop Control

PID control can be used to synchronize two motors in velocity/position. Each drive
commands its respective motor to the same velocity/position, then uses encoder
feedback to drive the differential velocity to zero. PID control is most effective when
used for position matching; when it’s used for velocity matching, cumulative error can be
problematic, depending on the application.

Encoder Essentials White Paper

Encoder Mounting. How to Optimize the Life and Performance of Rotary Encoders

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Motor Synchronization in Action

Velocity Matching
Applications for velocity matching include web processing. To avoid jams and damage
to the web, the web must always be pulled; the wind axis needs to turn a fractional
amount faster than the follower axes. This type of synchronization is best suited to the
master slave architecture. The wind axis is the designated master axis. It uses feedback
from the slave axes to drive them fractionally slower than the master axis speed.

Another common example is a discharge conveyor that needs to be matched to the

speed of upstream equipment. One of the trade-offs of velocity synchronization is that
position control is reduced. This typically does not pose a problem for the types of
applications discussed, however.

Angle Matching
Press applications require careful synchronization between parts and equipment. A
good example of an angle-matching application is a servo press transfer application that
requires synchronization of three servo axes with the press position. PID control
provides an effective solution for angle matching. The task could also be performed with
a master-slave architecture.

The trade-off to angle matching is a reduced control over relative speed.

Torque Matching
Torque matching does not refer to ensuring that both motors generate the same amount
of torque. Rather, it involves ensuring that torque from both motors is applied to the load
at the same time. Consider a section of aircraft fuselage being lifted by a crane at either
end. In order to keep the part level, the motors running the two cranes must start at the
same time and run for an identical number of counts. Any differential between them
could damage the part or cause injury.

How to Select an Encoder for Motor

Synchronization?
The correct choice of encoder begins with understanding the application. What are the
requirements for resolution and repeatability? Perfect synchronization is impossible, so
determine what the application can tolerate.

It is worth noting here that choosing the highest resolution encoder won’t necessarily
drive down error. The role of the encoder in the system is to provide feedback. It falls to
the control loop to apply that feedback to drive down error. Its ability to do so is limited
by the compliance of the system, however. Installing an ultra-high-resolution encoder on
an axis with a significant amount of compliance may just result in an axis that
continually overshoots its commanded position, extending settling times. Meanwhile, the
choice increases component cost and decreases lifetime and reliability. So,
paradoxically, choosing a lower resolution encoder may actually result in a piece of
equipment with better performance and improved lifetime.
Angle encoders measure the rotational position of a load in relation to a shaft or point.
The angle encoder provides output that corresponds to displacement and the reading
device (PLC, counter, etc.) processes that data into angular readings. There are three
approaches to measuring an angle with an encoder:

• Direct angle measurement with an encoder mounted to the pivot point of the load
• Indirect angle measurement with an encoder mounted to the motor driving rotation
• Indirect angle measurement with a multi-turn encoder mounted along the circumference
of the load

See All Absolute Encoders

Direct Angle Measurement by Tracking the Load
To measure the angular displacement of the load directly, the encoder should be
mounted on the center pivot point of the load. As the load turns, the encoder relays the
signal to the receiving device. This data only consists of either displacement pulses
(incremental encoder) or initial and final absolute positions (absolute encoder). The
reading device, whether it is a drive, a controller, or some type of counter/display
device, needs to process the raw data into useful information.
In the case of an incremental encoder, the angle α can be expressed as
where P equals the number of pulses and PPR equals pulses per revolution

In the case of an absolute encoder, the angle α can be expressed as

where C equals counts and CPR equals counts per revolution.

Indirect Angle Measurement by Tracking the Motor
Shaft
It is also possible to measure the angular displacement of a load by monitoring the
motor shaft or an Idler wheel. In this case, we get best results by turning the motor shaft
a set number of times and correlating it to the displacement of the load to come up with
a conversion factor.
This is the traditional use case for a rotary encoder. It has the benefit of improving motor
performance through direct feedback. The drawback is that it may not accurately track
the movement of the load. Mechanical compliance introduced by couplings, gearboxes,
etc. can introduce errors like backlash and hysteresis. The conversion factor
theoretically takes this into account, but mechanical effects can drift over time.

Indirect Measurement by Tracking the Edge of the

Load
Some loads are incompatible with center-pivot encoder mounting. Satellite dishes, for
example, need to be rotated to point in the direction of the signal of interest to a high
degree of control. Both the mechanical design and the presence of electrical cabling
passing up through the central shaft make it impossible to install an encoder at the pivot
point to monitor position directly. Depending on the degree of control, an extremely
high-resolution encoder may also be required. The solution is to track these devices
along their circumference.
 In
the indirect circumferential method, a geared wheel attached to a multi-turn absolute
encoder engages with the circumference of the load to track its angular
displacement. Learn more about single-turn vs multi-turn encoders here

As the band on the load moves past, it turns the wheel and the movement is registered
by the encoder. The reduction ratio of the gearbox enables it to deliver a high number of
rotations for every turn of the gear wheel. This delivers a final resolution RF given by:

where RB is the number of counts on the band and N is the reduction ratio of the
gearbox on the multi-turn encoder. The contact may consist of a toothed gear wheel
engaging with a toothed band on the load. Alternatively, it could be a friction contact
from an encoder measuring wheel or even a belt.

Error sources include mechanical couplings, backlash from the gearbox, shaft runout
and de-centering, belt slippage in the case of friction contacts, and others. The high
reduction ratio of the gearbox minimizes the effect of mechanical error. The exception to
this is friction in the gearing and seals of the gearbox. In this case, the impact of friction
is multiplied by the number of turns.

Incremental vs Absolute Angular Encoders

Incremental angle encoders can only register displacement from some arbitrarily
defined home position that is established at startup. This home position, usually referred
to as an index, creates only one pulse throughout one complete rotation of the code
disc. This enables the device processing the encoder signal to track the number of full
turns of the encoder disc from the home position. However, the index pulse is not
unique so the number of full rotations counted is often lost if the device is powered
down and it must be rehomed on startup.

An absolute angle encoder outputs a unique digital word for each position of the code
disc. Multi-turn absolute angle encoders also track the total number of full revolutions
with a digital word. Thus, there is no need for homing and the information is not lost
when the device is powered down. The moment an absolute angle encoder is turned
on, it can report exactly where it is by reading the digital word of that particular angle.

Achieving Higher Resolution with Quadrature Angle

Encoders
Interpolating the signal of a quadrature angle encoder can also deliver a significant
performance boost, depending on the implementation. If the processor of the receiving
device treats the leading edge and trailing edge of both the A pulse and the B pulse as
individual pulses, it quadruples the effective resolution of the angle encoder. For
example, this interpolation technique could enable an industry standard 1024 PPR
quadrature encoder to resolve angles of just 0.088 degrees.

However, it should be noted that any errors will be multiplied by along with the
resolution. These can degrade performance, which means that an attempt to increase
system accuracy by creating higher resolutions through interpolation might have the
unintended result of amplifying an error and degrading system performance. This is an
example of how higher resolution does not improve accuracy. Learn more about
encoder accuracy vs encoder resolution here.

Quadrature angle encoders also allow the direction of that rotation to be monitored. In a
quadrature encoder, the disc has two separate sets of markings (channels) that are
offset so that the signal for the B channel is 90 degrees out of phase (in quadrature)
with that of the A channel. This enables the receiving device to determine the direction
of rotation.
Customer Question: How can I measure angle to 0.1
degree?
Answer: Assuming you are measuring the rotating shaft directly, start by determining
the required resolution. If you want to measure to 0.1 degree, first, determine whether
that number applies to resolution or accuracy. If resolution, you need an encoder with
10 pulses per degree. Multiplying that by 360 degrees, you get a required resolution of
3600 PPR.
Thus, a 3600PPR angle encoder can be used. Alternatively, decoding the rising and
falling edges of both A and B channels of a quadrature encoder, you can quadruple the
resolution of a 900PPR angle encoder to achieve the same effective resolution,
although any error will also be amplified.

Unfortunately, this is only the theoretical accuracy. Evaluate any possible errors in the
system, including alignment, mechanical linkages, play in the system, etc. If the system
cannot physically position to 0.1 degree, you may need to lower your resolution
specification.