Talking History by Ambeth Ocampo-Sampler
Talking History by Ambeth Ocampo-Sampler
Talking History by Ambeth Ocampo-Sampler
Agoncillo
16 August 1984
“What history is not biased? Show
me a historian, a real historian
who is not biased!... History is
never objective.”
T he last time I saw Teodoro A. Agoncillo alive was on December 14, 1984. It
was a social call, no interview was scheduled. I do not remember now what
kept me from continuing the recorded monthly conversations we began in August
1984. On our last meeting, I brought copies of all his books to be autographed. His
handwriting was unusually legible that day. Agoncillo laughed and said I brought my
books at the right time because normally, his penmanship was shaky and difficult to
read, following a stroke he had suffered some years earlier. Yet, this was not the most
extraordinary thing that happened that day. After inscribing my books, Agoncillo
pulled out a small slip of paper saying, “matagal na kitang inaantay bumisita rito,
inihanda ko ito para sa iyo.”
It had been two months since my last visit and I was shocked that he handed me
a typewritten a copy of his epitaph which had been waiting for me since 9 November
1984, the date he inscribed on it. I didn’t know how to react and Agoncillo filled in
the silence with detailed instructions about his funeral arrangements: remind his wife
about a savings account he had maintained for his disabled son Teodoro Agoncillo,
4 Talking History
Jr.; his wish was to be cremated because he did not want his corpse to be viewed
during a wake; he wanted his ashes to be installed in his home library, in a simple
narra box with a bronze plaque engraved with: his name, his date of birth, his date
of death, and an epitaph he composed that reads:
Buong kalawakan ang nais liparin,
At ang kalangitan ang ibig marating;
Ngunit tingnan ninyo ang kinahahantungan
Sandakot na abong di pakikinabangan!
Actually, this was a revised version of the epitaph that he prepared as early as
February 16, 1983 that reads:
Palalo’t marunong, mata’y nakatutok
Sa bubong ng langit at nais matarok
Ang Kawalang-Hanggan at ang Di-Matalos:
Ngayon tingnan ninyo’t abong sasandakot!
It seemed morbid that Agoncillo had been thinking philosophically about death.
It did not make sense to me at the time to be burdened with instructions for his funeral
but most of these were not followed. He was cremated after a wake. I was informed
his ashes were placed in an urn rather than the simple narra box he specified, after
some years in his library his remains have since been interred in the crypt of San
Agustin church in Intramuros.
By coincidence or design, in the first recorded conversation we had, that which
opens this book Agoncillo is discussing funeral plans. In retrospect, the time and
patience he had with me was probably his way of talking to the future. He made sure
his voice will continue to be heard by those who did not have the chance to meet him
in person and know of him only through his books.
The topics discussed on the afternoon of August 16, 1984 were numerous. Of
interest to many would be his opinion on the controversy over Apolinario Mabini’s
birthdate—why he supported July 22 instead of July 23. Who were the historians of
the past he admired and who influenced or inspired him into practicing history. He
discussed the style, imagination and objectivity in the writing of history. The tape ran
as he began to praise De La Salle University and its visionary University President,
the late Bro. Andrew Gonzalez, FSC.
16 August 1984 5
TAPE 1: SIDE A
Ambeth R. Ocampo (ARO): Sinabi nga sa akin [na] gusto raw [ninyong]
magpacremate?
Teodoro A Agoncillo (TAA):My philosophy there, if it is a philosophy at all,
is that man is such a small thing, he accounts for nothing. Yung
yabang natin na akala natin na… No! You are nothing like the ash
that you are.
ARO: What about the things you leave behind?
TAA: Wala iyan compared to nature’s kuwan e…We cannot conquer
nature. Tingnan mo kapag nagkaroon ng natural calamity riyan.
Ano ang karunungan mo? Nasaan ang karunungan mo to stop this
calamity? Tingnan mo sa US kapag nagkaroon ng…
ARO: Tornado?
TAA: Tornado! Patay! Nasaan ang kuwan ninyo? [laughs]
ARO: Tagalog raw e (referring to the inscription TAA left with the
Historical Institute for the narra box that would contain his ashes).
TAA: Tagalog. Iniwan ko roon. At saka inilagay ko roon ito
[inscription], ilalagay sa kahon, Kinuha ko na… I prepare, ano
ha… Ayaw sabihin sa akin kung saan ako ma[kapag]papagawa
ng narra box na paglalagyan ng aking abo… Ika ko, gagawa ng
bronze plaque tapos ilalagay doon ang pangalan ko, tapos yung
date of birth and date of death, tapos dito yung poem.
ARO: Baka naman mahaba yung poem?
TAA: Hindi, one stanza [lang]. Four lines lang e. The gist is that man is
nothing and that I tried to reach the sky and look what happened.
[laughs]
ARO: Nerbyoso nga si [Eulogio] Leaño [former Chief of the NHI
Research and Translation Division].
TAA: Oo, nerbyoso iyan, naku. At ako kapag nagkakasakit ako I don’t
think of death. Lahat ng sakit except cancer nakuwan ako. But I
never got discouraged thinking of death… No, no, no! Nagkaroon
6 Talking History
1 What Agoncillo saw and experienced during the war went into his two-volume
work on the period, The Fateful Years: Japan’s Adventure in the Philippines, 1941-1945
(Quezon City: R.P. Garcia Publishing Company), 1965.
16 August 1984 7
TAA: Um! For as long as I can, I’ll produce! Ngayon, itong librong nasa
UP Press may problem, dahil sa paper. Sabi ko this will be my last
serious work2 but I will not stop writing short pieces katulad ng
hinihingi ni [Serafin] Quiason.3 Lima yon, tapos na.
ARO: Nandoon ho ako noong pinipirmahan ang cheke ninyo.
TAA: Tatlo pa ang hindi nababayaran. Mura pa. Alam mo ten percent
[withholding tax] ang kinuha sa akin. Sabi kong ganoon, mura na
kukunan pa ng ten percent na tax. Sabi ko, what Jun [Quiason]
should have done was to calculate. Alright ten percent ang
kukunin sa 2,000 [pesos], e di gawin 2,200 [pesos] para kung
bawasan ng [ten percent tax, the check I will receive will be the
net of taxes]. Ganiyan ang ginawa ng mga Hapon sa Japan when
I taught there in 1978. I was paid fifty-thousand yen. Alam mong
ginawa nila? May tax yan, withholding. Alam mong ginawa nila?
They added the computed tax para buo ang fifty-thousand [yen]
pag bigay sa akin.
ARO: Mabuti kung ganiyan, pero sinabihan na ako na history is a very
expensive hobby. Katulad ng Xerox lang.
TAA: Noong araw, walang Xerox, kaya ako talagang by hand. Students
today, provided they have the means no, madali! Hindi gaya
naming noong araw na nasa library kami ng ganiyan kukuha kami
ng notes. At saka iba kami e. Gaya ni [Leopoldo] Yabes, sinuspend
ni Dean Kalaw [for publishing an article on necking in UP].
“Why did you do that?” sabing ganoon, “Why did you not consult
me? You should have consulted me first before writing that in the
Free Press.” Hindi makakibo ang Yabes ‘no ha? Suspended one
week. [laughs] “Immorality sa UP.”
Ang bayaran sa Free Press [noon] sampung piso. Noon, malaki na
iyon. Do you know that Yabes… I know Yabes belongs to a poor
family, peasant. Peasant family talaga ang background ni Yabes sa
Ilocos. Yung wife niya belongs to a better family. Ang kaniyang
father-in-law, Justice of Peace. Sa Intramuros nakatira iyan sa
2 The Burden of Proof: The Vargas-Laurel Collaboration Case. (Quezon City: Univer-
sity of the Philippines Press, 1984).
3 The project to compile a multi-volume encyclopedia, Monumenta Filipina, was
stillborn.
8 Talking History
TAA: Oo, ngayon wala. Pag napakiusapan. Noong araw, wala e. Kaya
diyan sa UP, alam ko na they talk behind my back. Naiinis sila sa
akin, pero they cannot do anything because what I said about the
UP is true. Yung aking Professorial Chair lecture as Rafael Palma
Professor, “Scholarship in the University.”1
ARO: Nabasa ko po kanina, marami kayong nakaaway pagkatapos.
Siguro…
TAA: Maraming nagalit pero walang nakakibo.
ARO: Pero totoo e, ako nakikita ko…
TAA: Nobody ever answered it, because what I said there is true. Maging
sa promotion, tinira [ko] yung committee on promotion.
ARO: Sinabi ko, this lecture is so strongly worded.
TAA: Oo, binasa ko iyan e. To me, O.K. Sige, ha! You should read my
Valedictory [address], the paper I read when I retired. There was
a program, siyempre ako ang huling nagsalita. Valedictory ano, “I
step out of the darkness, into the sunlight.” [laughs]
ARO: Lalong magagalit yung mga kagalit ninyo.
TAA: Wala naman magagawa. Yung marami roong ano e [walang
nagagawa], yung may nagagawa naman mediocrity.
ARO: Kasi ngayon everyone seems to be bent on destroying the
Agoncillo institution.
TAA: Wala naman sa akin e. You produce what I have done. [laughs]
Noong araw, ito ang sinabi sa akin noong mga kuwan ko sa
[History] Department gaya nila Mila [Guerrero]. Sabi ika niya,
ng mga isa roong nagagalit sa iyo—alam kong siya e—“they will
destroy your influence.” They will destroy? Sabi ko, what will they
destroy? I never influenced these people, sabi kong ganiyan. I don’t
care. Pero, kako, people accept my ideas and I think people should
know the true scholar. A true scholar gives his opinion, which is
the result of a study. I don’t give a damn what other people say.
Why should you give a damn, what other people say? Let them
very fact that the student of history chooses what to include and
what not to include in his work, is proof that history is never
objective. [laughs] When you say for example that Mrs. [Imelda]
Marcos is a beautiful woman, you are not being objective, because
the beauty of Mrs. Marcos doesn’t say that she is beautiful. It is
you! Ikaw ang nagsasabing maganda si Mrs. Marcos. In other
words, you are already intruding yourself…
ARO: Into the picture?
TAA: The moment the student of history gives what is called the value
judgment, and in history you always do that, wala na! Saan
nandoon ang objectivity mo? It is important in history to be
impartial! Which is different. I hope, ewan ko kung kailan ilalabas
ni Frankie [Sionil] Jose ang iyon, and then [my critics] will realize
their stupidity. [laughs]
ARO: Bago ako nagpunta dito, binasa ko ang “word war” ninyo ni
Vivencio Jose.1
TAA: Naku! [DELETED] Inistop ng kamag-anak niyang si Frankie e.
Inistop lang. Sabi ko, that fellow does not know history. Tingnan
mo kung sinagot niya ako. Hindi niya ako sinagot. He never
answered me! [laughs]
ARO: Natatakot akong sabihin sa inyo ito kanina, pero sabi ko bahala na.
TAA: Minamana mong sabihin na si [Antonio] Luna was the leader
of the revolution in against Spain? Puñeta! Since when did Luna
fight against the Spaniards? He never fought the Spaniards tapos
sabihin niyang leader? As a matter of fact, Luna was a traitor to
the Revolution of 1896! Alam mo, I will write an essay on Luna
and Aguinaldo. I will write an essay kung bakit maraming nagalit
kay Luna, and I’ll justify, sapagkat Luna not only did not join the
Revolution of 1896, he was a traitor! Nagturo iyan a! Nagturo!
Pero nilagay ba ni Vivencio Jose iyan? Wala! Maraming hindi
inilagay si Vivencio [Jose] roon, either because or ignorance or ibig
niyang palakihin si Luna. As a matter of fact, I do not consider
Luna a hero. How did he become a hero?
1 Now one of the classic debates on Philippine historiography, the lively exchange
between Agoncillo and Vivencio Jose on Antonio Luna appeared in the pages of Solidar-
ity, 1977.
12 Talking History
1 “Oral and Local History: An Appraisal.” Read in the Seminar-Workshop on the Mak-
ing of Local and Oral History, University of Life, September 16-17, 1982.
16 August 1984 15
these people is that they didn’t study the problem. Ngayon ang
sabi ni Carlos Quirino, “pero ang pangalan niya ay Apolinario,
July 23rd.” That is no proof! Do you know, noong panahon
niyon, dadalhin ang bata… hindi naman ang ina ang nagdadala
niyan e, mayroong tagapagdala ng bata, hindi uma-appear yung
mother… Ang nagpapalista niyan eh mga monsilyos (laughs).
“O anong pangalan ng batang iyan?” “Wala pa ho eh.” Kukuha
ng kalendaryo, July 23rd noon, Apolinario, e di iyan ang naging
pangalan, but he was not born on that day but before! Madalas
mangyari iyang mga iyan eh. Anong pangalan? Wala pa. Titingnan
sa kalendaryo eh nasa isip ng [monsilyos] eh araw na iyon. It is not
a proof. It is no proof! To me the best is the baptismal certificate,
walang mananalo diyan. Unless you can present to me a more
authoritative document, that document is the final authority. And
it says “niño de un dia.” Kung tatlong oras pa lang napapanganak
iyan un dia na ba iyan? (laughs) No! That is absurd. Hindi, hindi
ako naniniwala diyan.
Halimbawa, ako. On your birthday, kailan ka nagce-celebrate ng
birthday mo? (laughs) On the day you are born? Alam mo ako
very critical, at iyan ang nakuha ko kay [Leandro] Fernandez…
[DELETED] “Agoncillo,” ikang ganoon, “always be critical,
always doubt until proven otherwise” (laughs). Tingnan mo ang
footnotes ko sa Malolos.1 Makikita mo how I arrive at a conclusion.
I put there my footnotes, ang dami, ang hahaba. Binanggit ni Jun
[Quiason] in my valedictory [address]. Isang araw pahihiram ko sa
iyo ang collection ko ha.2 Kahit favorable sa akin iyon, ayaw kong
kumalat, kasi mayroon akong notes doon. I have a poor opinion
of O.D. [Corpuz].
[BREAK IN TAPE]
1 Malolos: Crisis of the Republic. (Quezon City: University of the Philippines Press,
1960).
2 Agoncillo compiled all the papers and remarks delivered during his retirement
from UP and bound these in a scrapbook. This and other papers should now be in the UP
Archives, UP Main Library, Diliman.