Pat

Metheny

www.jazziz.com
Pat Metheny Covered
Though I was a Pat Metheny fan for nearly a decade before I special edition, so go ahead and make fun if you please).
launched JAZZIZ in 1983, it was his concert, at an outdoor band In 1985, we published a cover story that included Metheny,
shell on the University of Florida campus, less than a year but the feature was about the growing use of guitar synthesizers
before, that got me to focus on the magazine’s mission.  in jazz, and we ran a photo of John McLaughlin on the cover.
As a music reviewer for several publications in the late Strike two. The first JAZZIZ cover that featured Pat ran a few
’70s and early ’80s, I was in touch with ECM, the label for years later, when he recorded Song X with Ornette Coleman.
whom Metheny recorded. It was ECM that sent me the press When the time came to design the cover, only photos of Metheny
credentials that allowed me to go backstage to interview alone worked, and Pat was unhappy with that because he felt
Metheny after the show. By then, Metheny had recorded Ornette should have shared the spotlight. Strike three. C

around 10 LPs with various instrumental lineups: solo guitar, A few years later, I commissioned Rolling Stone M

duo work with Lyles Mays on the chart-topping As Wichita Fall, photographer Deborah Feingold to do a Metheny shoot for a
Y

So Falls Wichita Falls, trio, larger ensembles and of course his Pat cover story that would delve into his latest album at the time.
Metheny Group. Critics recognized him as a great young jazz I recall waiting anxiously for the photos. When the Fed Ex
CM

guitarist/composer with a transitional/traditional style.    package arrived, there were only two shots included; normally, MY

Metheny’s concert that night in Gainesville changed my I received all of the photos from a shoot. When I called Deborah, CY

life. The show was not what I expected. The jazz guitarist pivoted she told me that Pat only approved the two shots she sent. She CMY

musically into a high-energy stage production, mesmerizing a said that she understood why I was annoyed but that she didn’t K

few thousand students and faculty, most of whom had never want to get “in the middle.” I decided to take it on the chin, and
heard his name or his music. Metheny and his band (Mays, Steve ran a cropped close-up of one of the shots.
Rodby, Paul Wertico and Pedro Aznar) played an entire set from We decided to do another Metheny cover in conjunction
a yet-to-be-named album in a musical language that was then with his 2005 release The Way Up. That time around, I didn’t
unknown. Acoustic, electronic and synthesized sounds mixed to want to deal with another photo ordeal, so I assigned JAZZIZ
create an ethereal ambiance, a type of world music that featured magazine’s original art director, Daniel Nevins (who by then
Metheny’s own brand of swing. had become an accomplished fine artist), to illustrate Pat. When
Metheny and I hung out in his trailer for hours after the the issue launched, Metheny’s management was furious that
show. We spent much of that time discussing his approach to we ran an illustration instead of a photo. In response, I sent
jazz and the preparation that went into presenting it. I didn’t an email venting my frustration about Metheny to my co-
mention that I was just then conducting my first interview or publisher who crafted a kinder, if not more politically correct,
that the article I planned to write about Metheny would be my explanation. Inadvertently my rant was forwarded to Pat and
first stab at a full-length feature story. At that point, I wasn’t his associates.
even sure if and when JAZZIZ would ever launch. Nonetheless, You might think at this point that Metheny and I are at
I soon began transcribing the recorded interview and writing odds. Not so. He’s still one of my favorite artists. Over the last
the story during rare downtime during my first-year medical- 35 years, he’s been the musician we’ve covered most. We had a
school studies. My aim was to run the piece as the cover story chance to reconvene in Washington D.C. last year after the Jazz
in the premiere issue of JAZZIZ. at the White House event, and I made it a point to again express
When the time finally arrived to produce the first issue, we my gratitude for his contribution to the jazz world. In that
didn’t have a decent photo of Pat or a budget for a photo shoot, spirit, we present you with a few of the Pat Metheny stories
so we went with a different cover. Still, my poorly written that have run in JAZZIZ. Enjoy.
feature ran in that premiere issue (and is included in this —Michael Fagien
4 Pat Metheny JAZZIZ
thePat
Metheny
J A Z Z I Z 2 0 0 2

interview
by Michael Fagien
History will likely be exceptionally kind to Pat Metheny. The guitarist, after all, is one of the most innovative, influential,
and versatile musicians of his generation. During the last three decades, beyond his endless touring, he’s recorded an
astounding lot of music in a stupefying array of contexts. His most enduring - and commercially viable - vehicle is the
Pat Metheny Group. With a lineup that currently includes vocalist Richard Bona, trumpeter Cuong Vu, drummer Antonio
Sanchez, as well as longtime Metheny collaborators keyboardist Lyle May s and bassist Steve Rodby, the Group recently
recorded Speaking of Now {Warner Bros.}, the band’s eleventh studio album. With the record safely in the can, a relaxed
Metheny sat down for an interview with JAZZIZ publisher and editor-in -chief Michael Fagien. Over the course of a
sprawling conservation, Metheny was unfailingly blunt and articulate, whether discussing life on the road, the sounds in
his head, or the mechanics of his art.

MICHAEL FAGIEN: You seem to have always managed a a lot, night after night. It is what I always wanted to do
rather hectic tour schedule. I remember meeting with you more than anything else. As much as practicing and
in a trailer 20 years ago for our first interview. You were thinking and working on music can benefit a player’s
on the road then and it seems like you’ve never let up. Do progress, I don’t think anything compares to the impact
you enjoy being on the road so much? that just get­ting out there and playing night in and
PAT METHENY: I love playing so much. And you’re right, night out has. It all becomes real onstage; there is
I don’t think I know of anyone who has done as many nothing theoretical about it. Having said that, the past
gigs as I have over the past 20 years, at least not in the few years have been somewhat different for me. It’s not
jazz world. For me it hasn’t really been hectic as much that I don’t still love going out and playing hundreds of
as it has been really fun - and an incredible opportunity gigs at a clip - I do. But I have to admit that I have been
to learn about music and playing. And it was always a putting more attention and energy into different things,
dream for me, the thing of getting out there and playing including the thing of taking the recorded medium

JAZZIZ Pat Metheny 5

“Especially in the very early years, I felt the records
were really more just like an ad to get people to come
to the gigs when we would show up in their town.”
itself a little more seriously by taking more time to try on, I have been able to take the records themselves much
to make better records. Also, composing has become more seriously and feel much more reconciled with their
much more consuming for me as the standards of what taking a more definitive place in things.
I really accept melodically keep going up all the time.
But, beyond that, the most significant change is that I Baseball great Cal Ripken once said,”Practice doesn’t make
now have a wonderful family life with two beautiful perfect; perfect practice makes perfect.” You used to be a
little boys at home and I love being with them so much. practice fiend. Did you practice perfect?
I certainly will still do a lot of gigs, but I don’t think [the It’s funny when I look back on n1y early fanatical
tours] will be of record-breaking lengths anymore. period - basically from when I was 13 until I was 19- it
wasn’t that I was that interested in practicing per se;
Does your music translate better live than it does via, say, it was that I had a lot to do, a lot to digest. And I really
a compact disc? practically and functionally needed to get it together
In many ways I see records and live concerts as as soon as possible because I was actually working a
being connected but somewhat unrelated activities lot - probably several years before I should have been.
- especially where improvisation is involved. They When I would get on a stage with older musicians
functionally occur at such distinctly different around Kansas City, when I was 15 or 16 or 17, and they
temperatures that they are bound to bring out different would call a tune that I didn’t know, in a key that I
aspect s of one’s musical personality. I have always had wasn’t that comfortable in, at a tempo that was not
a hard time with the way that recordings seem to be that great for me, I would get the message in a very
perceived as the defining evidence of a player’s career clear way that that is what I better get together -and
and music - although objectively, I suppose I can see why hopefully by that same time tomorrow! These days, I am
that is so. Especially in the very early years, I felt the sorry to say, when I am not on the road, I barely touch
records were really more just like an ad to get people to the instrument If I had more time, I would continue to
come to the gigs when we would show up in their town. practice a lot - but it seems my time now needs to be
And it seemed like during that period, there was much spent addressing compositional and melodic issues in
more of a difference between the records and the live order to keep coming up with things that are inspiring
thing, especially since so many of those early records to me. It has been many years since the guitar itself was
were really recorded in a day or two with not much kind of an end-all thing for me. However, I really hope
opportunity to expand on what they actually were that one day I will again be able to really focus on the
going to be beyond just being a documentation of that guitar more. I love the instrument in a way now that I
particular band on that particular day. As time has gone just simply didn’t in the first 10 years or so that I played

6 Pat Metheny JAZZIZ

it And I do think that if I could spend a year or so now nearly real-time appraisals from all over the planet of
really working on it with the information and general every aspect of the playing - the tunes, the production
maturity level that I have now, that I didn’t have 25 ... everything. More than anything, what this has done
years ago, I could make a lot of real progress. is render all music critics obsolete - a condition that was
already pretty much in evidence anyway through the
You talk about your more “out” playing in terms of dearth of even rudimentally qualified music writers,
“density.” Could you expand on that concept? but one that is, nevertheless, welcomed by performing
Actually, I don’t think I would qualify out and artists everywhere. Where there may have once been
density as qualities that are necessarily connected. some influence or importance placed in those quarters,
For instance, I have always thought that both Secret any remaining remnants of that have now been
Story and Zero Tolerance for Silence were both more or effectively eliminated.
less explorations of sonic density - at least compared
to some­thing like Bright Size Life, for instance - yet, You once told me that a musician is really a good listener
stylistically, they are pretty far apart The whole idea who’s capable of hearing what’s inside his head and
of “filling up the canvas” is one that came much later bringing it to life. What’s inside your head these days?
to me in whatever evolution has occurred in my thing. I would say that for me it has always been a pretty
Early on, it was always as much about space and silence continuous road right from the start. The things that I
and the spaces in between the notes as the notes used to like and study and respond to are all still there,
themselves. But as time went on, I really wanted to try and I still feel close to the kinds of sounds and ideas
for a sound where there wouldn’t even be one speck of that I suppose most people have perceived me working
white left on the canvas. Those two records I mentioned on during the various records and t ours that I have
before were probably the apex of that period in their done for the past 20-some years. I think there are some
different ways. Since then, I would say that I am more musician s who tot ally reevaluate their whole thing on
interested in a kind of case-by-case approach. a regular basis, throwing everything out and starting
over with an entirely new version of themselves, using
Are people who appreciate all new materials and everything. I’m not like that at
your dense music better listeners? all. For me, what I hear in my head now is similar to
One of the things that is different in the post- what I have heard my entire life, even going back to
Internet world is that I have a lot more information when I was a little kid. The big difference is that now
now than I used to about what people listen to and for I have a greater capacity to make things sound closer
in our music. It used to be that you would put a record to whatever kind of thing I am trying to get to happen
out and in the six-months or so that followed you would through the manifestation of that particular idea into
get your 100 or so reviews from around the world that actual musical sound. The whole thing of getting better,
would kind of trickle in and a few dozen letters from to me, ultimately does revolve around listening skills
people with whatever opinions they happen to have and and I’m proving them. But it is also directly enhanced
that would be that. Now a record comes out, and within by just living one’s life and getting more experience and
a few days of its release, there are literally hundreds of maturity as a person in a kind of general sense.

JAZZIZ Pat Metheny 7

“These days, I am sorry to say, when I am not
on the road, I barely touch the instrument. ... It
has been many years since the guitar itself was
kind of an end-all thing for me.”
I hear that on the new album. There’s bits and pieces of another Metheny CD in the bin - say, Zero Tolerance for
the styles you’ve explored over the years, more so than Silence - buys it, takes it home, and can’t believe it’s the
on your other album s: Was there a conscious effort to same guy?
incorporate your older sounds on the new record or were Honestly, I don’t worry too much about people’s
some of these songs simply written year ago? perception because it is something that I have no control
I don’t know. Certainly not intentionally, but I over and, truth be told, very little interest in. I really
think also it may be impossible for me to really see it just try to play the music that I love and that I feel
objectively. I can see the connection with everything strongly about. If I were to start worrying now about
that I have done over the years in ways that are based what I thought someone else likes - first of all I would be
more on specific musical issues. Paul Motian once said guessing because I simply don’t know. Also, whatever
something that I thought was great; that every musician success I have had has been really built on just following
is born with one song and they spend their whole lives my own musical instincts and by reacting to the things
spreading the seed of that one song in many different that I found to be true in music itself. Somehow, I have
ways, but that the core of that one song is always the been allowed to continue and get gigs and play a lot
same. I think that’s true. There is an essence that I feel in by doing just that It is something I feel very fortunate
most of my favorite artists that is in everything they do, about too, and something that I consider a privilege. And
no matter how different or similar it is on the sur­face to with that privilege comes a responsibility that I take
other things they have done. I can’t help but think of my very personally I feel that the ultimate honoring of that
favorite visual artist, Paul Klee. He did so many different privilege is the creation of good music - that is the place
things, but they always had something that obviously where every­thing resonates or not for me - and it is sort
and immediately attached them to him. of at that altar of sound that I worship, you could say.

You have a diverse and possibly segregated fan base. Some You said that when you did one of your earlier
love your more accessible works like American Garage or soundtracks, Under Fire, in the early ‘90s, it was a great
We Live Here, but don’t necessarily care for your denser experience to collaborate with the master of film scoring,
material - Song X or the project you did with Derek Bailey, Jerry Goldsmith. You mentioned then that you picked
The Sign of4 to name a couple examples. At this stage of his brain about scoring and supporting films without
your career, are you ever concerned about someone who intruding on them. You’ve scored a half-dozen or so
goes to buy an album by the Pat Metheny Group, sees movies since then, most recently A Map of the World.

8 Pat Metheny JAZZIZ

With those in mind, how would you say your approach to ways. When I first met Gary, and started playing and
film scoring has evolved over the years? recording with him, I was really young. I was 18 when we
Writing music for films is something that is did our first gigs together and I stayed in his band until I
quite distinct from the day- to-day life that I have as was about 22. The early years were great for me because I
an improvising musician, but there is an overlap. In was able to learn so much just by being around him - and
both areas, you are dealing with a sort of moment- Steve Swallow and Bob Moses and Mick Goodrick as well.
by-moment unfolding of narrative ideas, and the To me, Gary is one of the greatest improvisers of this era.
sense of a larger purpose in the way things add up There are very few musicians who have the capacity
over time is important. I really enjoy film scoring for to truly invent new melodies each kind of harmonic
the collaborative aspect of it. It is really exciting to be ingenuity that he has at his disposal. And there are only
around people who are from quite different disciplines a handful of players on any instrument who have a
who are all working together to try to make something time feel that is as steady and developed as Gary’s. I am
great happen. But it is a rough life, and the people who especially happy that we were able to reunite years later
do it full-time have my utmost respect. In my case, I am for the Reunion record and, in particular, Like Minds,
happy to do one every four or five years and I hope to do where I guess I feel that I was able to contribute more
others every now and then. If you are lucky, it all comes effectively to Gary’s thing, being a little bit older myself.
out great and it is a positive experience. For whatever
reasons, I think many film composers may agree that Lyle Mays seems to be your main collaborator. What
that is often not the outcome. Each time I do one, I learn would the Pat Metheny Group be like without Lyle?
a lot but at the same time, what you learn on one project How would the group have evolved had Lyle never
may or may not apply to the next one. Each one is its been there or if he left after a few years? Many things
own world, literally, with its own cast of characters would be different, but also many things would be the
both on-screen and off. Flexibility, both personally and same. The original conception of music and the kind
musically, is probably the single most important quality of band I wanted to have and the kinds of sounds and
that you can bring to the table. chords and solos and instrumentation and fom1s that
I wanted to explore were already pretty fully formed
Let’s talk about some of the musicians you’ve worked by the time I heard Lyle for the first time. By then, I was
with. I know that Gary Burton was a huge influence on already recording on my own and touring around the
you in the ‘70s. Back then, you played in his band and world with Gary Burton and already pretty active on the
recorded three albums with him. But in the early ‘8os international scene. When I heard Lyle at a Jazz festival
when your career really began to take off, you kind of lost in Wichita in 1976, he immediately and totally knocked
touch with each other, and it seemed that the likelihood me out. I had a feeling that we would play great together,
of collaborating with him again had diminished. What and it was just exciting for me to hear someone more or
was it that changed that situation and brought about less my own age who had a sense of the music that was
Burton’s later works like Reunion and Like Minds, where that advanced and the ability to improvise at that level.
you played and even toured with him? It has turned out that hooking up was one of the best
Gary Burton’s influence was huge for me, in so many things that could have ever happened for both of us.

JAZZIZ Pat Metheny 9

 Metheny with Gary Burton.

Lyle brings things to every musical situation that he Grenadier - have lent distinct flavors to each project During
is involved in that are extremely sophisticated and really the last few years, Steve Rodby seems to have assumed a
beautiful, and I always welcome the chance to get on the greater role in your productions. You’ve done collaborative
bandstand with him or work on a new piece or a new albums with Charlie Haden and Marc Johnson. Have you
record. We really enjoy working together and seem to ever considered doing a project with just you and Steve,
have more and more fun each project, even after all these and if so, what might that project entail?
years. And for me, I could never in a million years have Steve’s increased presence over the years behind the
hoped to have found such a fantastic piano player who scenes in the studio has been a huge factor in the way
would stick with me for all these years, where we could the records have been recorded and organized. From
both continue to grow and develop our things together. Still Life Talking onward, he has had a major voice in
I feel very lucky that we still are going strong and still the making of all the records, including many of the
have so much to talk about, on and off the bandstand. He records I have done outside of the Group that he doesn’t
is simply one of the best musicians in the world. even play on, like the recent trio records, the duet record I
made with Jim Hall a couple of years ago, and others. He
The different bassists that you’ve used over the years - is one of the best producers out there and an incredible
Jaco, Eberhard Weber, Mark Egan, Dave Holland, Larry ally in the studio who makes the difficult process of

10 Pat Metheny JAZZIZ

recording so much easier and efficient. And yes, he is an special. After I hired [drummer] Antonio [Sanchez], I
incredible bassist who has allowed me the possibility knew that I wanted to find a few other new musicians
of putting a number of interesting and fairly far-flung who could offer some­thing really unique. And I thought
bands together over the years by providing a rock-solid of calling Richard, not because I thought that he would
rhythmic and harmonic platform to build them on. do it himself (since he has this pretty active career
Steve and I have done occasional duet gigs over the going on his own), but because I thought he might know
years, and I have always enjoyed them. You’re right, we someone who would be good for us that I may not have
should do more. He is a really great musician. heard about. When I described what I was looking for, he
said, “I’ve got the perfect person: me!” It turns out that
Most of the drummers you’ve worked with are considered he has been following the PMG thing for many years
the best in jazz: Jack DeJohnette, Bob Moses, Danny and had always wanted to do it. The prospect of writing
Gottlieb, Paul Wertico, Joey Baron, Billy Higgins, Roy for that voice and having him join us for a tour was so
Haynes. Are there certain criterion you use to employ absolutely inspiring that music just started pouring
select drummers in certain situations? out at the thought of it I love Richard and admire him
As I have said many times, the drummer is the so much. And, yes , in whatever form that we can work
most important person on the bandstand, no matter together, I have a feeling we will whenever we can. And
who else is on the stage. If the drummer is sounding I totally agree, he is a major talent
great everyone usually sounds great or at least pretty
good. I have been so lucky in this area; I love the drums You often take on the persona of a pop/ rock artist more
and have gotten to play with all of my favorites a so than a jazz art ist. And yet when you’re placed in the
lot. Yes, each situation has a certain vocabulary, and most serious jazz settings, you fit right in. How do you live
I would say that the first major decision about any comfortably in both worlds?
project is who is going to play drums?. Everything else I don’t think about personaI really just try to find
follows from there. the good notes, try to find the right sound, the right
spirit. It doesn’t matter who I am playing with or for. It
Richard Bona sings and plays percussion in your new matters even less to me what the mythology around a
group. Like Nana Vasconcelos, Pedro Aznar, Armando particular setting is supposed to be.
Marca!, David Blamires, and Mark Ledford before him,
he brings ascertain sound and voice to the group. I I’m going to mention a few guitarists. You tell me what
predict that Bona is going to be a major recording artist comes to mind. Ready? Wes Montgomery.
in his own right. Do you foresee working with him One of the most inspired and consistent improvisers
outside the group? of all time and one of the most transcendent inventors
Richard Bona is one of those rare musicians that of melody ever. My favorite guitarist and one of my
comes along every now and then that is pretty much major personal heroes. His music sounds better and
unprecedented. There has just never been a guy like him better as the years go on. I listen to the same records I
on the jazz scene . His talent is truly multi dimensional, have listened to hundreds of times and hear details I
but it’s his singing that really takes me to some­place had never noticed before.

JAZZIZ Pat Metheny 11

John Scofield. either. I don’t think I would even talk; I would just sing
I love everything about John – his phrasing, his touch, all the time!
his harmonic sense, his sense of humor - everything. And
the best part of his playing is how it is such a natural and Jimi Hendrix.
beautiful extension of who he is as a person. To me, Jimi was a lot like Albert Ayler or Dewey
Redman or Pharoah Sanders - a genuine storyteller that
Derek Bailey. could use raw emotion in extended doses, for extended
Derek is someone who has a melodic sophistication lengths, with a core that was always natural and real.
that is unique and very deep. His ability to maintain a Like Wes, he is another musician who sounds better and
certain kind of melodic tension for long periods of time better in retrospect. Everything he played was so true.
is totally singular. His touch and sound right off the
instrument are instantly identifiable, and his genuine Django Reinhardt.
curiosity about sound and music is informed with a Along with Wes, the best pure improviser ever on
profound sense of what I think he would term “more the instrument. And the sound! Just glorious, and so
conventional” playing, which gives it a special kind of personal. Again, like with all of my favorite players,
weight and insight. it all comes down to improvising melodies. It is the
most difficult thing about being a jazz musician, and
John Abercrornbie. there are very few players who can generate melodies
A guitarist who excels at everything he does. Besides that approach the level of the songs that they are
being constantly engaging as a soloist, he is one of the improvising on. Melodic playing is one thing you can’t
best accompanists in jazz. His work with Jack DeJohnette simulate or fake; it has to be real. Django had the kind
, Enrico Rava, and recently with Charles Lloydin quartet of conviction and power in each phrase that made his
settings are some of the greatest examples of what a solos add up to more than just a string of ideas. They all
guitarist can offer as an alternative to a pianist as a seemed to be of one piece.
primary comping instrument that you could find in
recorded jazz history. John always finds something Any young players caught your ear?
special and central to each of the many situations that I have not really been with my ear to the ground
he finds himself in. that much in the last couple of years. Most of the guys
that I would call young are not really all that young
George Benson. anymore. I am even a little bit concerned. Practically
The sleeping giant . If George made a guitar-trio from the dawn of 1azz, there were teenagers and people
record every year, the world would be a better place. As in their early twenties really putting the pressure on the
far as I know, he has never even done one. We really music by keeping it changing and overtly challenging
need him. He is one of my favorite guitar players of all the status quo of jazz. For a couple of generations now,
time, right there with Wes, Django, Kenny Burrell, and the young guys have been playing great but more or
Jim Hall. In addition, he is one of my favorite singers. If I less adopting the fundamentals and sticking with the
could sing like that, I probably wouldn’t play that much tried-and-true, messing with things around the edges

12 Pat Metheny JAZZIZ

rather than going right at the core. The good part of are fairly major irritants. However, there are a few
this is that we have so many more fundamentally instances where pirates have peeled the soundtrack
solid improvisers around. There are now hundreds of off of video performances and put it out as things that
guys around the planet who can play well on changes appear to be sanctioned albums that are just out-and-
and really deal with form and structure with a kind of out theft.
fluency that was. while not rare, not found in previous
eras in the abundance it is now. But I keep waiting Do you see any difference between traditional
for some kids to come along and really make me, for bootlegging and the Internet technology that allows for
instance, rethink everything I know. And that hasn’t free distribution of music?
happened for me since I first heard Jaco. But I bet it will Honestly, they are basically the same thing. Having
soon. I just have a feeling about it. said that, like everyone else, I am having to relearn the
social context of what it is to be a musician in this new
There are few artists who manage their own companies. culture: what our function is, how people do or do not
You of course control Metheny Group Productions and all value what it is we do, and what purpose we actually
of your business dealings - the imaging and positioning serve to the communities that we live in as musicians,
of Pat Metheny as a product. I know this requires a lot or artists, or authors, or whatever.
of discipline, vigilance, and organizational skills. Most
musicians don’t like dealing with the business side of It’s possible that you’ve covered a wider range of styles in
things. What’s your story? your career than any other jazz artist With that in mind. I
Actually. compared with the thing of dealing with can’t imagine what you’ll do next Any desire to go where
the music itself, that aspect of things is just barely a no Metheny has gone before?
blip on the radar screen of the activities that occupy my Again, I don’t exactly think in those terms. There
time and energy. I don’t mind talking about music or is a place you go every time you improvise that is
working on the details of how music is presented at all. essentially a journey of discovery. You really don’t
And taking responsibility for how things go down in all exactly know where you are going to wind up. You have
of the aspects of how the music is finally put out into done a lot of research. maybe you have a plan or a map
the world is a big part of what the stuff you are talking - some changes or a vibe or something that you know is
about entails. It is just kind of natural to follow through going to be an element leading you towards a goal - but
on everything. you still are ready and willing for anything to happen
in your quest to bring sound into the air for other people
There seem to be a lot of Pat Metheny live bootlegs to check out as well. That process is the most fun thing
floating around. Obviously, piracy is alive and well with there is. I just want to spend as much time as possible
your fans. What’s your take on piracy and bootlegs? in that search for those moments where the question
The fact that people care enough to tape and morphs into the answer as it is being posed, where the
trade and catalog all the live things that they have idea itself takes you to a place that you always knew
that I know are out there is equal parts puzzling and was there but had never quite been able to get to before.
flattering to me. The boot­legging and piracy things That is what it’s all about for me.

JAZZIZ Pat Metheny 13

 John McLaughlin
J A Z Z I Z 1 9 8 5

& Pat Metheny

GUITAR SYNTHESISTS
More or less in the jazz tradition
B Y C H A R L E S L I T T L E
14 Pat Metheny JAZZIZ
T
hirteen years ago, John McLaughlin guitar synthesizer’s faults rather than its achievements
formed the Mahavishnu Orchestra. and potential.
Rockers and guitarists wholeheartedly Recent technologic advances have eliminated many
embraced this musical experimentation of the past quirks of the guitar synthesizer, which now
while many jazzers shook a finger at pro­v ides a wider range of color for the palette of the
McLaughlin and proceeded to don musical artist. One of the newer guitar synthesizers,
earplugs. Little did purists know that McLaughlin was Roland’s GR-700, has sophisticated, versatile functions
destined, through the Mahavishnu Orchestra, to change on a floor pedal control panel that is relatively easy to
the course of guitar and jazz forever. use. Conse­quently, it is getting much attention from
Pat Metheny, an accomplished jazz guitarist for over both amateur and professional players.
a decade, has also made an undeniable contribution The relative lack of popularity of this futuristic
to the music with acoustic and electric playing, instru­ment lies in the paucity of role models who play
disregarding criticism as he also expressed a multitude it. McLaughlin and Metheny are once again in the
of new sounds. Like McLaughlin, he has crossed over innovator’s chair and therefore are subject to ridicule by
several music markets, playing fewer traditional styles those who hate to see tradition redefined and enriched.
with paradoxical acceptance. The guitar synthesizer is by no means a mere
The concurrent exploration of the guitar synthesizer sound enhancing accessory. Rather, it is a complete
- the instrument of the future -by these two players computeriz­ed instrument capable of duplicating the
seems only natural, considering that both have done more sounds of most other instruments and even sounds
for the conceptualization and popularization of guitar as yet unheard while playing a “standard” guitar.
and contemporary jazz than practically all other artists The potential is endless, con­sidering that once the
involved in this tradition combined. They have been synthesizer is properly programm­ed, the guitarist can
continually praised as innovators and. at the same time, use established abilities and technique on a familiar
scoffed at as experimental refuse. But it is important to and comfortable instrument to render such new sounds.
remember that both were developed, consummate artists Some even believe that the synthesizer has a jazzier
long before they chose to integrate the technological quality than the standard guitar and that this will
revolution into their ever-evolving styles. expand the use of guitar in jazz music.
A new era for improvisation is emerging. But technology is simply technology. What really
Keyboardists have long had access to the world of mat­ters most are the artists and the way in which they
sound creation, hut only recently have guitarists choose to incorporate it into their art. Technology will
been afforded, through guitar synthesizers, this same never replace human emotion and creativity. Although
ability. The technology behind these instruments is so Metheny and McLaughlin arc the two best known
complex and novel, though, that they have inherent guitar synthesizers, many other jazz guitarists are
problems. McLaughlin actually abandoned his first diving into the domain, too, including Tommy Tedesco,
guitar synthesizer 11 years ago due to its complexity Al DiMeola, Larry Carlton, Lee Ritenour, Steve Lukathcr,
and limitations. Consequently, ignorant philosophies Ryo K:nvasaki, Paul Ashdl and Randy Bernsen. But at
overshadowed its significance and concentrated on the the pinnacle of this new frontier are McLaughlin and

JAZZIZ Pat Metheny 15

Metheny, two acclaimed jazz musicians who know a -not only acceptable, but [that listeners would] love it,
good thing when they see it and are uniquely prepared because we all want to be loved and adored; it’s just basic
to approach it responsibly. JAZZIZ conducted separate human nature.
interviews with Metheny and McLaughlin -ask­ing
parallel questions -and discovered that musical attitudes, How do you feel about the negative attitudes held by so-
not shiny new toys, underlie the philosophies shared by called “purists” toward the guitar synthesizer?
these two artists. METHENY: Well, quite frankly, a lot of jazz people have
negative image about the guitar, period (laughs). It runs
JAZZIZ: Both of you are using the guitar synthesizer to the whole gamut. There are a lot of major jazz players
relay your music. In addition, your music is at present an who, not on the record, would tell you they don’t want a
experimental type that is at the same time very accessible. guitar player in their band. I think that there are a whole
METHENY: John and I, I think it’s safe to say, both bunch of people who maybe wouldn’t be interested
have fairly strong musical personalities that were -I’m talking about hardcore jazzers -in somebody who
developed in a large part before we even got guitar was coming from a Jim Hall or Jimmy Raney or Wes
synthesizers. And it’s more or less a new color -it’s Montgomery or Tal Farlow kind of approach, who might
something different, it’s a new voice -but on the other be interested in somebody who was playing a guitar
hand it’s puzzling to me, extremely puzzling, that we’re synthesizer. In fact, a guitar synthesizer has the potential
the only two guys. quality of a kind of vocalness or a kind of human cry-
McLAUGHLIN: Well, first of all, I have a great type sound that the traditional jazz guitar player has an
admiration for Pat as a musician, as a guitar player incredibly difficult time trying to simulate.
and as a writer, too, but at the same time we are very McLAUGHLIN: The question would be more relevant if
different, different kind of people, musically different it were what are my feelings toward purists. And I don’t
and conceptually. So naturally the approach to the like any of them. I don’t like purists in any form because
[synthesizer] is different. I think we look at it necessarily they’re necessarily self-opinionated and very, very
differently. The thing is, about music, everything is narrow-minded. T. e purist, in fact, is the worst kind of
experimen­tal. I think the only music that’s not really listener because they know a little bit and they think they
experimental [for the most part] is pop music -it’s non- know a lot. They become terribly self-opinionated and
experimental, it’s formula and geared to be sold to a this is really unfortunate. And anybody who tries to do
particular kind of market. The thing is that when you get something different suffers for it. People could say, “Yes,
out of chat world you go into more of an ex­perimental well the purists are the guardians of tradition, etc., etc.,”
domain. An artist is in constant search for the which I think is a lot of hogwash because the musicians
development of his craft -even to the extent of seeking themselves are the guardians of the musical traditions.
new forms to express himself. And there’s no other way, I could give you many examples; I’ll give you just
other than by experimentation, to discover where things two from very different fields. Miles, a classic example -I
can work or where they can’t work. The fact that you remember, this is going back a few years, a guy came up
find it acceptable is great. Every artist in the world would to Miles saying, “Listen, why don’t you play like you used
hope that everybody finds what he does acceptable to play?” And [Miles] said “Well, how did I use to play?”

16 Pat Metheny JAZZIZ

 “There are a lot of major jazz players who, not on the record, would tell
you they don’t want a guitar player in their band. I think that there are
a whole bunch of people who maybe wouldn’t be interested -I’m talking
about hardcore jazzers -in somebody who was coming from a Jim Hall or
Jimmy Raney or Wes Montgomery or Tal Farlow kind of approach, who
might be interested in somebody who was playing a guitar synthesizer.”

which is a typical puritanical ap­proach to him-I mean METHENY: We’re so, as a generation, conditioned to
so, so, so far off it’s amazing. the guitar as being one particular thing. And when it’s
Another one is Paco De Lucia, who is a flamenco a non-guitar-type sound it’s not so attractive to a lot
guitar player who belongs to my generation of of guitar players who are look­ing to get an Eddie Van
musicians. He wants to broaden his musical base, enrich Halen thing or a Hendrix thing or something. It’s really
his tradition, make a contribution to the tradition, different, it’s a new thing and the fact is that there are
because the tradition’s not gonna die; one day we’re very few guitar players who are looking for a new thing.
gonna die, but the traditions go on, the music goes on. Almost all guitar players are looking to create an older
But the thing is, during your life what do you thing, they’re looking to recreate John Mclaughlin or
contribute to the overall tradition of music, your music, Jim Hall or Wes Montgomery ... clearly influenced by one
be it jazz, be it flamenco music, be it classical music? person more than anybody else. And that’s wild. That’s
That’s really the question in mind, and of course Paco something you can’t say about a lot of others-why that
gets criticized by some of the “purists,” flamenco purists, is, I don’t know.
because he’s influenced by the experiences that he’s had McLAUGHLIN: There are not a lot of artists generally
with Al DiMeola and myself or that he’s had with Chick who are trying to create a new thing; I think it’s not
Corea, and of course this affects the way that he looks limited just to guitar players. In fact, what is “trying to
at flamen­co music, not in a detrimental sense, but in create something new?” -it means that they’re looking
an absolutely positive sense! But of course, it’s not seen inside themselves for a way to ar­ticulate what they feel
like that by the purists because they think, “Oh no, he’s and the way they feel today is not like the way they felt
breaking the rules, he can’t do that, he’s not playing like yesterday. And so, of the forms that were valid five years
he used to. This is something that everybody who tries ago, we find some can be developed and will be useful
to expand the norm will be subject to, and that’s just a and some can’t.
fact of life; there’s nothing you can do about it. So, what happens is that you have a state of
frustration in the mind and spirit of the artist -a necessary
Expanding the traditions through creativity, particularly part of life. (This] will stimulate the artist to look for a new
in regard to guitarists and guitar synthesizer seems to be form in which to articulate what he’s really feeling, and
somewhat at a standstill. without that we ha\·e no creation whatsoever.

JAZZIZ Pat Metheny 17

“I don’t like purists in any form because they’re necessarily self-opinionated
and very, very narrow-minded. The purist, in fact, is the worst kind of
listener because they know a little bit and they think they know a lot.”

I think what’s happened, particularly in America, explore the realm of creation of sound. For example, you
is that the hamburger philosophy of pop rock & roll can be involved in the creation of just a sound, that first
is out there -super dominant. It’s the money, it’s the of all has never been heard before and you can create a
thrill, it’s what makes the kids happy and all the other sound that can really function like a key. It can evoke
arguments, and why not? My only regret as far as that’s something in you, like a key; it can just open something
concerned is that people unfortunately are not ex­posed up that would not have, in fact, been able to be open­ed
to some newer kind of creative art -in any kind of plane without that, or perhaps [only) in some other time, some
-but we’re speaking primarily about music. They just other place, but in some other way, and I think that’s a
will not have the chance to be exposed to it, and so, if very good thing.
they’re not exposed to it, they don’t know it exists; they
don’t even know if they like it or not. Unfortunately, a It sounds as though the increased technology brings with
lot of people won’t be exposed to a lot of creative music it increased responsibility.
that is going on today. METHENY: Absolutely! People had better get over
their fear of technology. In the last two years there’s been
Just exactly what can be done with the guitar synthesizer? progress that is ab­solutely unbelievable and in the next
METHENY: Oh man, it’s so complicated. I’ve done 10 years anybody who denies the value and the aid that
these seminars where it takes two hours, without even this stuff can be to a musician - any kind of musician, I
picking up the guitar, just to talk about the Synclavier don’t care if you’re a country and western musician -is
and what it can do. Basically, what it boils down to is out of their mind. Even if it’s just a composition level, you
anything you can imagine in your wildest dreams, can write your whole piece on a Synclavicr and then go
anything you can think of, it’ll do it’ have it played by acoustic players.
There’s a new kind of term going around in terms The whole idea of going into a studio. in a very short
of computer type people where they start talking about time. is going to be an antiquated one. I’ve already done
computer user-friendliness and all that. The new term is one film score literally, in my bedroom, that when you go
a very real thing; it’s called “option anxiety.” When you hear it in a theater it sounds like it was done in a multi-
start talking about any kind of synthesizer, especially tracked studio.
as they get more and more sophisticated, that’s quickly Also, with guitar synthesizes, the fact is that it’s
becoming an issue. You know there are so many things it still a guitar and you still are going to have to learn how
can do that it’s just overwhelming. to play the guitar first. I’m still consonantly amazed,
McLAUGHLIN: A synthesizer, whether it’s a keyboard considering how many guitar players there are out
synthesizer or a guitar synthesizer, will allow you to there in the world how few really good ones there

18 Pat Metheny JAZZIZ

 or whether it’s an architect, or whether it’s just a writer
working with his word processor.
I think we should have a more positive attitude
towards the computer; it’s true, for example, you can
put a few notes in, invert it reverse it, arithmetically
retrograde it. pitch retrograde retaining the key
signature -you can do a ton of things with it. But I think
that’s necessarily good. I think we discover things
about the music we’re writing that we wouldn’t have
discovered before, hut I don’t believe in the durability of
computers writing music, preparing music, and it being
of human significance.
The essential part of music is some movement.
some creative thought, some feeling that happens in
the imagination, in the heart of the musician, that he
articulates to the listener.

Do you think that the Synclavicr guitar enables you to

reveal more of your musical personality than ever before’
are. Everybody thinks their instrument is difficult, METHENY: No, I wouldn’t go that far because I’ve
but I think in jazz or improvised music, guitar is an always been a big contender that different instruments
exceptionally dif­ficult instrument. It’s got a lot of weird, don’t really change you as much as you change them.
bad habits built into it that encourage pattern playing Even if I had to play the rest of my life on a funky old
and lick kind of playing -all the kinds of things that Sears and Roebuck guitar and a Pignose amp, I’ve got
as an improvisor or a jazz guy you want to avoid. Few the feeling that I could find a way to get what I had to
people can manage to overcome that hurdle. say out through those things. It’s a wider range; I think
that’s the term you used, a wider range of sound that’s
With the advent of sequencers and polyphonic syn­ exciting to me.
thesizers, it seems like you can put in a little and get out a
lot. In that respect, do you think that this will “take over” Will this new technology drastically affect the music that
the way peo­ple write music’ we will hear in the future?
McLAUGHLIN: It’s quite possible that there will McLAUGHLIN: Throughout my life as a musician,
be a wave of that, but I can’t believe in its durability 1 can’t see things changing too much; it’s a life of
because there’s only one thing that can really hold out, experiment, a life of research into music and into the
and that’s the humai1 heart and soul. But I think the development of forms that I’ve discovered. To perfect
attitude towards computers needs re­education because them as much as possible, I don’t think it’s gonna
computers arc an amazing tool -whether it’s an artist change too much (laughs).

JAZZIZ Pat Metheny 19

 PAT METHENY GROUPED
Back in 2002 we highlighted Pat Metheny’s discography to date. Check
more recent issues of JAZZIZ to learn about albums from his past 15 years.
Bright Size Life (ECM, 1975) – Metheny’s first album as a leader. His trio
projects—each a guitar/bass/drums affair—have proved to be his most critically
acclaimed. Trio members have included Jaco Pastorius and Bob Moses (Bright Size Life),
Charlie Haden and Billy Higgins (Rejoicing), Dave Holland and Roy Haynes (Questions and
Answer), and Larry Grenadier and Bill Stewart (Trio 99-00 and Trio Live).

Watercolors (ECM, 1977)—Precursor to the Pat Metheny Group’s first two

recordings—Pat Metheny Group (a.k.a. “The White Album”) and American Garage—this
album defined the Group’s classic sound, which still lingers today.

New Chautauqua (ECM, 1979)—One of Metheny’s two solo-guitar albums.

Stylistically, the discs are worlds apart. While New Chautauqua revealed an acoustic
heartland sound, Zero Tolerance for Silence was an experimental journey to the edge of
electric-guitar noise.

As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls (ECM, 1980)—Metheny’s

first duet album is with longtime collaborator Lyle Mays. Seventeen years later, he
recorded another duet, Beyond the Missouri Sky, with bassist Charlie Haden. His two
other duet discs are with guitarists John Scofield and Jim Hall.

First Circle (ECM, 1984)—A turning point and an extension of the sound first
explored on the Group’s successful 1981 release Offramp. For First Circle, Metheny enlists
Argentinian multi-instrumentalist and vocalist Pedro Aznar and forges a new trademark
sound for the band that combines vocalese and chants. Arguably, the Group’s latest
release, Speaking of Now, is First Circle born again.

Falcon and the Snowman (EMI, 1984)—Metheny’s first soundtrack included

a tune sung by David Bowie. For 1992’s Under Fire soundtrack, Metheny collaborated with
legendary film scorer Jerry Goldsmith. Later he wrote and recorded soundtracks for the
Italian film Passaggio Per Il Paradiso and, most recently, Map of the World.

Still Life (Talking) (Geffen-1987)—Metheny becomes one of the few jazz artists to
prove that commercial albums like this one, Letter from Home, and We Live Here can be
substantive. The band earns respect from critics and gains popularity on jazz radio.

Secret Story (Geffen, 1992)—Though often perceived as overproduced and

schizophrenic, this masterpiece is perhaps Metheny’s finest hour. Though distinct from
the less accessible 80/81 and Song X, these albums steer away from the Group sound
and, with a little help from his friends, drive confidently through tortuous terrain.

Michael Fagien