Conversations With Ajahn Den Nakaton

CONVERSATIONS WITH AJAHN
DEN NAKATON
by
Boris Grechin
and
Yekaterina Smolenskaya
Yaroslavl
2018
Published by Lulu, Inc.
www.lulu.com
Text © Boris Grechin, Yekaterina Smolenskaya, 2018
This short book scrupulously reproduces oral teachings and

recommendations on meditation, received by its authors from
Venerable Phra Ajahn Den Nakaton during their stay at the
Wat Tham Khao Rak Mai monastery (Thailand) in June 2015.
It is worth to remember that we do not claim to produce a

sensation or to reveal “new truths” by means of this humble
publication. This is nothing but a short book describing exactly
what was told us by our teacher during our stay at his
monastery, and in our eyes, it has a very important advantage
of having absolutely nothing that may be called fictitious. It
preserves our true impressions from a living tradition of
Buddhist practice, being not a ready-made lite-version of the
Dharma, but the actual Dharma, practised in its truthfulness
by someone who has never made any attempts to become a
“spiritual celebrity.”
We also think that the unique personality of Venerable Ajahn

Den Nakaton, abbot of Wat Tham Khao Rak Mai, is worthy of
being known both in Russia and in other countries all over the
world.
We will be thankful to any native speaker of English who helps

us proofread this text and improve its grammar or style.
© Boris Grechin, Yekaterina Smolenskaya, 2018
ISBN: 978-0-359-19381-3
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-
NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
October 2018
CONTENTS
PREFACE..................................................................................... 4
TECHNICAL NOTES.....................................................................15
CONVERSATION ONE — JUNE 4, 2018 ........................................16
THOUGHTS AND OBSERVATIONS — BETWEEN JUNE 4 AND JUNE 8,
2015......................................................................................... 20
CONVERSATION TWO — JUNE 8, 2015........................................21
THOUGHTS AND OBSERVATIONS — JUNE 9, 2015 ...................... 22
CONVERSATION THREE — JUNE 9, 2015.................................... 23
THOUGHTS AND OBSERVATIONS — JUNE 10, 2015 .................... 26
CONVERSATION FOUR — JUNE 10, 2015.................................... 27
THOUGHTS AND OBSERVATIONS — JUNE 11, 2015 .................... 30
THOUGHTS AND OBSERVATIONS — JUNE 12, 2015......................31
CONVERSATION FIVE — JUNE 12, 2015 ..................................... 32
THOUGHTS AND OBSERVATIONS — JUNE 13, 2015..................... 37
CONVERSATION SIX — JUNE 14, 2015 ....................................... 39
CONVERSATION SEVEN — JUNE 16, 2017................................... 45
CONVERSATION EIGHT — JUNE 17, 2015 ................................... 55
CONVERSATION NINE — JUNE 18, 2015 .....................................61
CONVERSATION TEN — JUNE 19, 2015 ...................................... 69
APPENDIX ONE. THE FROG AND THE SNAKE .............................. 76
APPENDIX TWO: PHOTOS ...........................................................77
PREFACE
(1)
In May 2015 we (I and my wife) in our capacity of Russian

Buddhists have participated in the annual International Vesak
Conference in Bangkok, Thailand. We did it on an invitation of
Venerable Phra Ajahn Chatree Hemapandha, our precious
teacher.
The annual Vesak conference and celebration in Thailand

normally welcomes Buddhists from all over the world, both
monks and laypersons, the number of participants being
slightly below a thousand.
The conference was, to be certain, a very interesting event, but

we were looking forward to the possibility of a monastic
retreat. Ven. Ajahn Chatree made no definite promises but
hinted on many occasions that he would try to do his best to let
us have such a retreat.
After the Vesak conference was over, we provisionally

remained at the Wat Chonprathan monastery. Because
married couples are not allowed to live in the same room, I
shared the cell with Venerable Phra Dhammavudho, a monk
from Russia (his Russian name was Alexandr Berezin),
whereas my wife lived with maechi (the Thai term for nuns,
although “not ordained,” as there is no full female ordination
in Thailand).
I shared a cell with a monk, I said, but I had better say “we
shared the cell,” we meaning other lay Buddhists: Mr Maxim
Pozharitskiy, the head of a Buddhist Alliance in Byelorussia,
and Dmitriy, his colleague (I somehow cannot recall his second
name and am not sure that he has ever mentioned it). Ven.
Dhammavudho used to leave very early in the morning and
only returned to his cell late at night.
CONVERSATIONS WITH AJAHN DEN NAKATON PAGE 5
Being left almost unobserved, we four Buddhists from Russia

and Byelorussia spent three days in a way tourists usually do.
We strolled through monasteries and markets of Bangkok,
bought souvenirs, we had visited Ayuttaya, a beautiful ancient
city full of very old Buddhist temples. In the evenings we spent
hours discussing the future of Buddhism in Russia and
Byelorussia.
We communicated very little with the local Buddhist

community, the only exceptions being two maechi of Russian
origin and a German monk who lived in the same house with
Ven. Dhammavudho (every house had cells for two monks
upstairs and two separate bathrooms on the ground floor).
Our friends from Byelorussia finally went home. On that day

we realized very clearly that we were not nearer to our aim we
had been three days before. So we took a liberty to remind
Venerable Ajahn Chatree that we were still here and still were
very eager to take part in a monastic meditation retreat. (We
saw little of him as he was very busy with problems in the
monastery he supervised as an abbot. There was a serious
argument between young monks, and it even came to physical
assaults.)
When inviting us to the conference, Phra Ajahn Chatree had

intended to send us to one of the big and monastic centres
famous for their regular retreats (as Wat Suan Mok etc.). But
towards the end of May it had somehow turned out that it was
impossible to send us to a regular retreat in June: we either
were late for registration, or there were no places left, or the
June retreat was cancelled.
Finally, when we lost all hope, Phra Ajahn Chatree informed us

that he had succeeded to secure a place for our retreat: a small
village monastery in the South of Thailand. The abbot of the
monastery in question, Phra Ajahn Den Nakaton, was a close
friend of his.
On June 2nd, 2015, Phra Ajahn Chatree provided us with the
name of the monastery: he wrote the name in both English and
Thai characters into my notebook. He had also asked one of his
students (shall I better say “parishioners”? the word does not
belong to the Buddhist vocabulary and yet seems at its place
here), a taxi driver, to bring us up to the bus station for no
charge, to help us buy tickets and to make sure we were on the
right bus. The driver in his turn asked the bus driver to halt in
Thapsakae and to remind us we should get off there. I am
absolutely certain that we would miss our stop without this
precaution.
In Russia, we probably wouldn’t take the risk of going to an

unknown place without even being sure that someone would
meet us at the end of our journey. But the atmosphere is
different in Thailand: people here are really caring (at least
unless they do not regard you as a stranger, a farang who
easily gives away his or her money). At the same time, they
never care too much to be punctual or to plan everything in
advance. Somehow, you catch this atmosphere and cease to
worry about things one would worry about in Russia.
We started at noon, it took us about six hours to get to

Thapsakae, so we arrived after sunset.
In most towns of Russia, winter days are normally very short

and summer days very long due to the latitude. Not so in
Thailand: the dusk comes comparatively early even in summer,
and when the sun is set it means night, not a “white night” of
St. Petersburg, but a regular southern night.
We got off in a marketplace of a small town with empty market

shelves and with no person to be seen around. (The bus rolled
away.) Well, there was finally one person: a ticket seller of the
station, a girl of 18 or 20. And she spoke English: a real luck.
We explained to the girl that we were looking for the Wat

Tham Khao Rak Mai monastery and asked her if it was
possible to find a taxi at this time of the day.
“You don’t find any taxi now,” the girl answered (well, this was
predictable). “We don’t have many taxis as it is, even at
daytime, let alone at night.”
“What if we walk there? Can you show us the direction?”
“No, nonsense!” the girl replied. (We had noticed even before
that most people in Thailand do not usually walk for long
distances. They would drive even to a shop round the corner. It
seems the best thing to do in their climate.) “Too long a way to
walk. And, actually… I do not know where to go.”
Now, imagine our complete stupefaction. We had not the least

idea where to go or what to do.
Our helplessness was not unnoticed: the girl phoned her mom
and, having discussed matters with her, said she could arrange
a car for us and that it would cost us 500 baht. Much more
above the standard taxi fare, but then, again, a fair price when
considering that her mom didn’t intend to go anywhere.
And so we were brought to the monastery where everyone was

soundly asleep. No window was lit. And what else should the
inhabitants do but sleep at this time? (It was close to midnight
when we arrived.) Monks and nuns usually get up very early,
and correspondingly early they go to bed.
There was a big number of dogs running free and barking at

us. Luckily, they only went so far as to bark: the dogs didn’t
look like regular watchdogs and were simply kept at the
monastery out of charity, as we learned it later. We hoped, too,
that their barking would wake someone. Our driver had finally
suggested that we should knock at any window. So we did and
eventually succeeded in waking up one nun.
It was an extremely hard task to explain to her that we had

come to Ven. Ajahn Den from Bangkok to stay at his
monastery on the recommendation of his friend, another
abbot. The nun didn’t speak English very fluently, but the main
thing was that no one had informed the abbot of our arrival
before. I am very far for blaming Ven. Ajahn Chatree for the
fact. He might have wanted to make a call, but in the course of
the day he might be attacked with problems of his monastery,
too heavy to be neglected, he might accidentally lose the phone
number, and so on. I say again, that an unexpected arrival like
this one would be a very serious problem for the visitors in
Russia or in Europe. But not in Thailand: we were finally
admitted despite the fact that the monks had each and any
right to send us away, and we were given places to sleep (in
different rooms, of course).
I was asked to sleep in the main prayer hall. I remember very

distinctly that at 5 a.m. the next day the nuns started their
usual morning chanting. To be sure, they were a bit perplexed
by the arrival of “the strangers,” and yet nothing would prevent
them from chores and activities of every day.
Ven. Ajahn Den Nakaton received us in the morning, and,

having learned that it was Ajahn Chatree who had sent us to
the monastery arranged everything in the best way possible.
(His full monastic name was, by the way, Ven. Phra Ajahn
Den[duang] Nakaton, yet he never used this full name and
asked us on many occasions to address him simply as Ajahn
Den, which we also did.) We were allowed to stay at the
monastery up to the day of our way back, which meant
nineteen days (the tickets were bought in advance for the very
last day on which we could go home without needing a visa), to
practise meditation and to have our breakfasts and lunches at
the monastic canteen. All of this for no cost (a donation was
welcome, of course, but we were free to decide about its sum or
even not to give any donation at all). It seemed too good to be
true, and yet it came true, call it good luck or exceptional
compassion towards us. I am somehow far from a thought that
it was our own spiritual merits that had allowed us such a long
stay.
During the second meeting, Ajahn Den asked us if we by any
chance had a phone number of Ven. Ajahn Chatree (we gave it
to him, of course, and he made a short call in our presence).
This question made me believe that there had been no
communication on our account between the two teachers
before, nor could there be any, since they didn’t even have
actual phone numbers of each other. Almost any person from
the West and even any second Russian (for many Russians
now try to imitate the Western standards of behaviour and are
proud to share Western values) would probably regard this fact
as something utterly irresponsible. You may see it like this, or
you may say that both teachers are advanced far enough on
their spiritual way to have complete confidence in wisdom,
patience, and compassion of each other, and if one is fully
equipped with those virtues, nothing bad can happen. As for
me, I am very much inclined to believe in the latter.
Our monastic stay, the “retreat” we had dreamed about so long

before, started on the third of June. We left the monastery for
Bangkok on June 20.
(2)
Our days at the monastery looked very much one like another.
At 4:45 a.m. we got up to be on time for the morning chanting.
There were seldom more than two nuns at the morning
chanting, and often there was only one.
(Her Thai name was, by the way, Boom. We got acquainted

with her and then became friends. Boom made on us the
impression of a deeply religious person. She had decided to
become a nun after she was married and then divorced. In
other words, she, unlike many young maechi we met in the
Wat Chonprathan monastery, had seen much of life before she
had made this mature decision of hers.)
After the morning chanting was over we usually took big

brooms and swept the pathways to make them clean from
yellow fallen leaves. We did it voluntarily, no one forced us to
do so. There is no such thing as autumn in Thailand or at least
nothing we call “autumn.” The local people have a saying that
there they have only three seasons: “a hot one, a very hot one,
and a very very hot one.” This is why trees drop a few yellow
leaves every day.
About 7 a.m. we had a breakfast in the monastic kitchen being

not a closed building but simply a big veranda: some pillars
supporting a roof, benches, and tables. We usually managed to
have one or two meditation session between the breakfast and
the lunch. The lunch, according to monastic disciplinary rules,
must be finished till noon, so we had it between 11 and 11:15
a.m.
We had a separate table as it is proper for laypersons, and each

meal was opened with a short prayer. Food gathered by monks
in the morning was collected in the kitchen and then
distributed, some things were cooked by a lay female cook, as
monks are not allowed to cook. We got so much for both
breakfast and lunch that we were never left hungry. There was
a variety of courses, and there were fruits every day (it seems
fruits are not seen in Thailand as something special).
After the lunch, we usually made two more meditation sessions

and always attended the evening chanting that lasted about
one hour. Ajahn Den had found for us a prayer book in
English, it means, with an English transcription of Pali
prayers. He was the only person in the monastery who spoke
(American) English fluently and made an impression of
someone who used to live in the United States for a
considerable period of time (Ajahn later confirmed that he had
worked in America and was active as a businessman before his
ordination). Boom, to do her justice, also managed to speak
English, at least, we could communicate with her and
understood each other.
We also had spare time that we could spend as we wished it:

we could explore the top of the hill with its caves, grottos, and
small ascetic cabins along the pathway upwards, or walk along
the seashore, or even bathe in the ocean (it was only
reasonable after the sunset, and we did it only twice or three
times; the water was clean and warm even after dusk). We
were at liberty to determine the duration of our meditation
sessions or their place. A very unusual approach for someone
accustomed to retreats of Ven. Ajahn Chatree at Wat
Buddhavihara (St. Petersburg) that have a lot of strict sessions
under the direct supervision of the teacher from early morning
till late in the evening. There is no need to compare the two
approaches in the sense of preferring one to another, as each of
them has its own value and philosophy. This relative freedom
allowed us to determine by ourselves what we did during each
session and even whether we actually meditated or went to the
next village. (Once we actually had to have our lunch at the
village café, as the monastery was on that day very crowded
with schoolchildren attending a special education program,
and we considered it tactless to bore the cook, busy as she was,
with our lunch.) But then, again, we had to give a report of our
progress every (second) day, so it was impossible to ignore the
practice, neither had we any wish to do so. Of the two
approaches, the latter, the “loose” one, looks much more like
our everyday life where there very often is no one for us to say
what precisely we should do and what practice to engage
ourselves in. This is not meant to say that the former “strict”
approach, propagated by Ven. Ajahn Chatree Hemapandha at
Wat Buddhavihara, should not be valued: in fact, a “strict”
retreat gives you a tremendous concentration during a
relatively short period, and it is for you to decide how (and
whether) you will use this concentration power you have
gained.
As for locations of our meditation, we were allowed to use the

(smaller) monastic temple (it normally was only used during
the morning chanting), or the cave (a famous place for
meditation used once by a local hermit whose name we are
sorry not to remember now), or the “hill cabin” (a small
concrete house with three windows, one door, and literally
nothing inside save probably, a mattress, it had an absolutely
splendid view on the seashore from the height of
approximately 100 meters), or the seashore itself. Luckily for
us, there was a big tree there in whose shadow we could hide,
else the heat on the shore would be unbearable.
During our stay at the monastery that lasted 19 days, we never

met any single person on the seashore. This particular place
around Wat Tham Khao Rak Mai does nor belong to touristic
attractions, so there were literally no tourists there. Local
people do not swim in the ocean, or, at least, they do it very
seldom. We tried to find out why they don’t but never
succeeded. Various answers like “Running around half-naked
is not a proper thing,” “There are sharks even close to the
coast” and so on were given, but we were unable to decide
which of them was serious.
There was a beautiful line of green electric lights along the

horizon after the sun was set. I guess it was trawlers working at
night.
After the evening chanting was over, we went to the veranda of

the abbot’s house to meet Ajahn Den in order to give reports of
our progress and to receive further instructions. There was no
fixed schedule for these meetings, but they happened almost
every second day.
Those instructions we were allowed to write down. I cannot

claim that this book is a stenographic fixation of every word
that was said, but we tried to write down all essential
instructions to the best of our ability. As a result, this relatively
small book was produced.
Ajahn Den sometimes took a pen and drew a rough scheme

illustrating what he wanted to say in one of our notebooks.
These illustrations are also reproduced here.
After the evening conversation was over, we usually drank a

cup of coffee or tea (there was an electric kettle inside the
abbot’s house, and Ajahn had amply provided us with teabags)
and then finally separated for the night. I slept in one of the
rooms of the house just mentioned, and Yekaterina stayed in
the house of nuns.
(3)
The reader of this book has to bear in mind that all

instructions received during our stay in Wat Tham Khao Rak
Mai were given to two particular persons. They do contain
what may be called universal principles or elements of Ajahn
Den’s worldview, though (being the chief reason for publishing
this book), as well as a lot of personal instructions,
inapplicable to efforts of other practitioners, as they would
have a different experience (maybe superior to ours).
Disclosure of personal instructions is not something we are
very happy with, but we have to accept it if we want this book
to be published.
It is also worth to remember that we do not claim to produce a

sensation or to reveal “new truths” by means of this humble
publication. This is nothing but a short book describing exactly
what was told us by our teacher during our stay at his
monastery, and in our eyes it has a very important advantage
of having absolutely nothing that may be called fictitious. It
preserves our true impressions from a living tradition of
Buddhist practice, being not a ready-made lite-version of the
Dharma, but the actual Dharma practised in its truthfulness by
someone who has never made any attempts to become a
“spiritual celebrity.”
We also think that the unique personality of Venerable Ajahn

Den Nakaton, abbot of Wat Tham Khao Rak Mai, is worthy of
being known both in Russia and in other countries all over the
world.
We will be thankful to any native speaker of English who helps

us proofread this text and improve its grammar or style.
Very truly yours,

Boris Grechin
Yekaterina Smolenskaya
TECHNICAL NOTES
Ajahn Den used most common Buddhist terms (such as the

Nirvana, skandhas, the karma etc.) in their Sanskrit form, as
they are known to the Western Buddhists in this form. He used
Pali words (such as jhana, sañña, kasina, kilesa and the like)
for less common terms. We follow the same principle
throughout the text and give any term in the form he used. Pali
terms are given in italics.
The text of each conversation mainly consists of Ajahn Den’s

own words how we have noted or how we remember them. It
was not possible to write down all what he said verbatim, but
at least we have tried to record all essential explanations,
recommendation, and ideas.
“Thoughts and Observations” only represent our own ideas

noted in the time between two conversations. They may or may
be not of value for the reader. We have eventually decided to
include them into the text to provide the background for each
conversation.
CONVERSATION ONE — JUNE 4, 2018
Ajahn Den: There is no need to think much of duration of your

meditation. You must meditate all the time. But it is hardly
possible to do it always, that is why you should try to meditate
at least occasionally. For example ten times a day. When
distractions appear, make your mind come back to the object
of meditation.
Our mind must be protected by the wall of mindfulness (see

Figure 1).
mind
mindfulness
feelings and thoughts

FIGURE 1: OUR MIND PROTECTED BY MINDFULNESS
PRACTICE WITH A STONE
Observe a stone on your palm with your eyes closed. Breathe

through this stone and through the top of your nose. Allow the
stone to move. Observe your mind in the same way you
observed the stone.
WOMEN
A woman on the spiritual path does not differ from a man, they
both are human beings.
MAKING DECISIONS
To come to the right decision one should:

a) observe five precepts,
b) consider all the opportunities.
FALLING ASLEEP DURING THE MEDITATION
If you fall asleep redouble your attention. There are two ways:
either you fall asleep or you continue meditating. Catch
yourself on the turning point. If you can stay mindful your
drowsiness will leave you.
Simple attention can stop affections as long as you do not

follow them. Your wish to do something or to obtain
something from them actually produces your affections as long
as it is not paired with mindfulness. Affections in their turn
produce wrong deeds.
Moral restrictions do not have absolute value, they are only

valuable in a relative way.
There is no need to attach yourself to any particular method or

to particular conditions of your training.
The polite form of addressing a monk is ‘namasakarn-krap’

(for a layman) or ‘namasakarn-ka’ (for a laywoman).
There are five vows of a layperson you already know. As long

you stay in a monastery, you also keep additional vows such as:
1) restraining from food after noon,
2) restraining from dancing, singing, and such (but you still
can watch newsreels on TV),
3) restraining from amusing,
4) restraining from using high and comfortable beds and such,
5) restraining from perfume and cosmetics,
6) restraining from using money (you cannot actually follow
this last rule very strictly).
All additional vows may be regarded as monastic vows.
Question: When being mindful shall we observe our in- and

exhalations?
Answer: It depends on your mind. First of all, you have to be

attentive towards everything that happens in your mind as
feelings, thoughts etc.
Question: What is the difference between samatha an

vipassana?
Answer: Samatha allows you to achieve your final destination

via four jhanas, which are followed by peace. Having reached
peace you finally enter into nirvana.
Vipassana leads you to nirvana directly by means of insight

(see Figure 2).
wisdom The Nirvana
peace
3
jhanas insight
2
samatha vipassana
FIGURE 2: DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SAMATHA AND VIPASSANA
Samatha is similar to watching a film whereas vipassana is

recognizing the samsara in all thing around you.
The same reflection of your emotions by means of mindfulness

is samatha when it leads you towards peace, and vipassana
when it leads you to the understanding of the emptiness of all
things. Samatha and vipassana rely on each other so that when
you perform one practice you may earn fruits of another one.
Your mindfulness must be a shield between your mind and

mental phenomena. When you have no such shield other
persons or beings or events of your life produce affections in
your mind and these affections keep you in the samsara, they
never release you (see Figure 3).
mind
the samsara
qrong thoughts, emotions, deeds obscurations
people mindfulness
FIGURE 3: REJECTION OF AFFECTIONS BY MEANS OF MINDFULNESS

THOUGHTS AND OBSERVATIONS — BETWEEN JUNE 4 AND
JUNE 8, 2015
In the southern Buddhism, samatha is supported by vipassana.

You recognise all mental phenomena that distract your
attention, you name them, and you stop them by naming them.
There is no such mechanism in the northern Buddhism. It
might have existed once, but it is not remembered in the
Tibetan tradition any longer.
CONVERSATION TWO — JUNE 8, 2015
Ajahn Den: You recognise the fact that you were distracted for
time being and this is very good. Do not care how long you
have been distracted, just stand in the present moment of your
life.
Question: May a layperson reach the Nirvana in this life?
Answer: Yes, he or she can. In Thailand, we preserve and

support monks for the sake of the Buddhist church, in order to
preserve rituals, ceremonies, and traditions. If you know how
to be happy, if you know the method, you can reach nirvana
even without keeping monastic vows. Still keeping vows is
better.
Samatha and vipassana are the same in their essence. Simply

watch which of the two, serenity or understanding of
emptiness, comes first. Do not get attached to terms and
words. Vipassana at its beginning is cognition of external
factors. But you need to observe external factors in order to
develop attentiveness towards internal phenomena, which are
more important. You need to combine the meditation with a
dana. Any acts, motivated by unselfishness and mercy may be
a dana. Your conversation with another person is a dana when
done with good intention etc.
In Buddhism, we have only one thing – the eca. This eca is our
mind. Only our mind can liberate us from suffering. Anything
else including even the three Jewels is only a means. It only
helps us to find the way.
THOUGHTS AND OBSERVATIONS — JUNE 9, 2015
In the morning, the mind is normally more active and easily

distracted.
The cave and the seashore do not differ in the effect on the
practice.
Sensations in the upper part of the head were registered during

the morning session.
Mindfulness increases when you don’t make too many efforts

and do not concentrate too much.
When you don’t make any attempts to control your breath (as
you shall do while being engaged in vipassana), your
exhalations are normally shorter than your inhalations.
CONVERSATION THREE — JUNE 9, 2015
Ajahn Den: Piti, or a pleasant feeling, comes before serenity.

Do not try to pursue these feelings, simply watch them and
keep in view the main object of your meditation, which is your
breath. Do not get attached to pleasant feelings, do not be
afraid of them. Nobody dies because of piti. Neither has it any
sense to value it too much. It makes no sense to explore all
these interesting feeling, sensations, and states of your mind, it
only leads to forgetfulness, it only distracts your attention.
Simply watch your breath without any additional object of
concentration.
Question: Shall we remove distracting factors or simply

observe them? What shall we do if they do not leave?
Answer: There are two methods. The first one is as follows:

when your mind is not stable and when you observe different
thoughts produced by your memory you have to cognise these
thoughts in their details. You have to realize how this thought
was produced and where it came from. Then you leave them
be, you let them come and go, but you stay above them, you
have to find a calm place above the thoughts from which you
can observe them.
On applying another method you also return to your breath,

you never follow your thoughts, you never allow them to carry
you away, you never look for happiness which we normally
understand as pleasure because you know for sure that each
pleasure is followed by pain or unpleasant sensations.
No need to meditate indoors all the time. You can meditate out
of doors, especially in the countryside. We normally want to
cognise all new things and mental factors, but it is much better
simply to watch them. You have to make three mental efforts:
1) to watch mental phenomena;
2) to cognise them (which means to know them in their
essence);
3) and to release them.
Sometimes you need five or seven minutes to calm down your

mind or to relax before you start or renew your meditation.
Anytime you watch your breath simply observe it and follow

your body, do not try to control it, do it in a relaxed manner.
Have no tension, do not make too many efforts, do not try to
predict the future.
Different practitioners may have different types of piti as they

are:
— feeling of burning in your backbone;

— the illusionary growth of body;
— shivers or creeps;
— feeling of rising energy;
— sounds and etc.
All of them are just illusions, they are normally produced by

the previous karma including the karma of your bad deeds. If
the sensations are painful cultivate loving kindness and
forgiveness, in any case just watch these sensations and never
get attached to them.
Question: Of two kinds of attention being a deep one and a

relaxed one which is better?
Answer: A relaxed attention is better.
Normally we are attentive to external factors when meditating,

we have to direct attention to our mind.
Do not study phenomena in all their details, simply cognise

them. Do not try to be happy, observe your happiness and
never get attached to it. Simply perform your meditation and
do not care for its result. Do not think of your progress. All
fruits of meditation will come in time. Do not take your
meditation too seriously.
You can meditate everywhere.
ON FAMILY
The family is a heavy burden the Buddha said. Take your

family and your job easier than you normally do. Give to both
of them a part of your life and do not think of them when you
do not need to.
Both in a family and in your office you need to be patient,

sincere, and open-minded.
Please be aware of the fact that people die including our

nearest ones. Try to regard all members of your family as your
friends which means not to get attached to them too much.
A family is positively dangerous for young persons. You do not

need to speak of religion with your relatives. They probably
won’t understand you. There is no much chance that you
transmit your own spiritual experience to other persons.
There is no such thing as the Three Jewels at the end of your

path, neither is there anything else except your mind.
Be happy in the actual moment of your life. This is one of the

methods to meditate in our everyday life.
Before we go to another country we try to learn about this

country, we try to prepare for our journey. In the same way, we
learn to eliminate our emotions before we enter into the Final
Peace.
Normally samatha may have forty objects. Do not limit your

practice by this number, though.
The sooner you become aware of a distracting factor the easier

you can stop it.
There is no happiness within our body. It can be found

nowhere within it. The same may apply to our social life.
It is hard to perform kankamana or vipassana by walking when

keeping a natural rhythm of your breath and walking with your
normal speed. However, if you still can observe your body on
walking with normal speed your meditation becomes a
prerequisite to your everyday mindfulness.
CONVERSATION FOUR — JUNE 10, 2015
Question: How can we preserve our mindfulness in our

everyday life?
Answer: During your formal meditation concentrate on one

thing. In your everyday life stay in the present moment. Do not
recall the past, do not predict the future. When you stay in the
present you actually divide any process into tiny particulars.
Now I’ll try to explain it to you. If you are attentive enough you
see that this very sentence consists of seven independent
words, as “I – try – to – explain – it – to – you”. And when I
say “I” – only this word exists in the present moment.
If nothing happens around you simply observe this fact, watch

this “nothing.” It is important to see the beginning and the end
of any process, of any action, of any phenomena. When the
process ends simply release it, forget it, don’t try to restart it if
you have no need for this process. Imagine the process of your
anger. It is made of different independent processes, or cycles,
following each other. When the first cycle goes to its end you
don’t need to start the second one. When you divide any
mental process into parts and these parts in their turn into tiny
moments, no place is left for affections and obscurations, they
can hide nowhere.
In our Theravada tradition, we also have what you northern

Buddhists call “a dark retreat.” A practitioner stays in a room
with no light for a long time in order to learn all his or her
internal processes or phenomena.
When you are angry, observe the process of your anger, watch
it unless it fades and finally ceases to be. Cognise all its
components, cognise all processes that had produced this
particular state of your mind.
Your mind is always busy, and you cannot prevent it. So keep
calm and simply watch its activity.
Sometimes you follow a particular sort of feeling for a long

distance and get distracted this way. As soon as you have
cognised the fact of your having been distracted, restart your
meditation. Make a deep inhalation and a deep exhalation, and
then return to the object of your meditation which normally is
your breath.
Question: What shall a practitioner do when anything

disappoints him or her?
Answer: As long as you have concentration you are not

disturbed by other emotions, so no disappointment can
possibly appear.
As soon as you get any particular result from your practice, just
release it. Your result belongs to the past. Do not try to
increase your old results, do not try to make gathered fruits
grow. Stay in the present moment. Combine mindfulness with
loving kindness and generosity.
Yekaterina: I do not find counting in- and exhalations natural.
Boris: It is really difficult to follow two processes

simultaneously. I have also learned that it is much easier to
release any distracting factor at its beginning if you have
registered it quickly enough.
Ajahn Den: Meditation shows us both sides of our mental life

which are serenity and activity. Cognise both of them, get
attached to none of them.
Try to find a calm place within yourself. It is good when you

have already found such a place. If you haven’t, simply observe
all processes, accept both sides of any process, both calmness
and anger, both light and darkness.
Your face provides one of the objects for samatha. Concentrate
on your face with your eyes shut.
While observing any physical process like breath or walking,

try to watch tiny stops between two steps or, say, between an
in- and an exhalation. The same applies to any mental process,
to the stream of your recollections which are produced by your
memory or sañña. Try to see these tiny stops, or moments of
rest.
In order for our mind to exist, we need a combination of all

five skandhas. It is our memory that carries us into the next
reincarnation. This is why you have to release your memory.
Observe the activity of the twelve nidanas in your everyday

life.
Any meditation has two important characteristics which are

mindfulness and concentration. The former is trained by
vipassana, the latter by samatha. They shall accompany each
other.
Remember the meditation with a stone I showed you before.

You let your hand move freely, and these movements display
the activity of your mind. If your movements are active this
means that your mind is also active and that you have many
thoughts.
Instead of watching the stone in your hand you can directly

watch your mind.
Recommendation for Boris: always return to the object of your

meditation. It can be your breath, a lamp or a candle etc.
Any small result of meditation produces pride (joy), and this

pride then becomes a disturbing factor.
When the mind is active it may be useful to count in- and

exhalations, and it is also reasonable to keep eyes shut.
There is no much difference in essence between vipassana by

sitting and kankamana (vipassana by walking).
One can simultaneously watch two objects (as breath and

hands) when being engaged in vipassana by sitting.
Attempts to cultivate mindfulness when sweeping the

courtyard of the monastery [which we did every morning] was
not very successful, maybe due to the fact that we had no
experience of a very slow sweeping first, unlike the experience
of a very slow walking that we had before.
Observing three objects by walking (the process of walking

itself, hands, and breath) leads to dividing the mind into three
parts none of which is seen as absolutely substantial and true.
In other words, there can be no true self if three “selves” exist
at the same time.
CONVERSATION FIVE — JUNE 12, 2015
Question: Do we need to watch multiple processes when being

engaged in vipassana by sitting?
Answer: First of all, do not concentrate too much and apply

relaxation when needed.
It is as if you were looking for a calm place for meditation, such

as the [local] temple etc. Please search and find such a place
within your mind as well.
If we speak of external places such as caves with bats etc. we

know that such places sometimes scare the practitioner. This
feeling is also needed to cognise your mind and your spiritual
shortcoming. One who is not afraid of wild places has a mature
mind.
Anyone who has cultivated a true calmness has truly closed the
doors of hell for himself or herself, even in case he or she was
capable of holding this true calmness for two minutes only. We
cannot hold this state of mind all the time, so simply let it go,
release it. Another one will come in due time.
ON JHANAS
The first jhana is characterized by complete calmness without

any thoughts.
The second jhana is linked with a feeling of great joy, piti, the
growth of spiritual powers and supernormal perceptions.
In order to achieve the Nirvana, you need three things:

samatha, wisdom, and jhanas.
Number of objects you observe may vary. Normally you watch

only one process and see its being discrete. But in the event
there is a change in your mind you may also observe multiple
processes.
When observing our mind we always see two paths before us, a
correct one and a wrong one, a good one and a bad one. The
sense of this observation is in choosing the correct one.
Consider someone who is watching a soccer match on TV. He
or she cannot participate in it, it is only possible for him or her
to watch it. In the same way, we must handle all mental
processes that occur within our mind. We shall detach
ourselves from them. As long as you detach yourself from the
processes you do not follow them. Do not reflect on the details
of any process; do not go deeply into it. We only watch its
beginning and its end, we only watch it come and go. This
observation makes us see that nothing truly new happens
within our mind, it is all the same all the time.
Different practitioners need different methods. Try them all in

order to find one that suits you.
Question from Yekaterina: I feel calmer in my everyday life.

Shall I proceed with samatha?
Answer: Yes. You can do everything you find suitable for you.
At the beginning of your path, you normally encounter much
suffering produced by your previous bad karma.
Meditation requires your whole mindfulness. Over and over

again, you make three steps: observing phenomena, cognizing
them in their essence, releasing them.
Speaking of attention, there are two types of it: that we use in

our everyday life and that we use when meditating.
Question from Boris: Do we have one object or rather two or

three?
Answer: Despite the fact that the processes are many, please
follow one, do not follow all of them. Please do not apply
special physical methods as crossing your eyes on the top of
your nose and such. Simply watch and cognise what happens.
Every time you want to follow your emotion and receive

something from it, please recognise this fact in order not to
follow it. Sometimes you still may allow your emotions to carry
you away (which normally happens during samatha), but take
care not to be carried away too far, go back before you are too
far away. Every time it is different.
Question: Shall we watch our breath in our everyday life?
Answer: Yes, you can do it anytime you want to. After you
have become familiar with this practice, observe your mind in
the same way you used to observe your breath.
Be aware that you cannot possibly do it all the time. Only the
Buddha can be mindful at any particular moment of His life.
As for you, do it occasionally, that will do. You need it in order
to check if you can be mindful. Five or seven breaths are
enough for the time being. Your mindfulness must be natural,
nor forced, nor strained.
Commentary on samatha: Counting breath is an easy method

to increase mindfulness. Such methods are many. Regard all of
them simply as technical means. All you need is seeing the
actual state of your mind. You use all these means in order to
tame your mind in the same way you use a rope to tame an
animal. Sometimes you need a rope of counting or other such
ropes. It is not necessary for you to follow all these
recommendations. You may find your own way. For instance,
you may observe the sensations produced when you touch an
object.
Every time your meditation becomes too “heavy” for you

return to your calm place. In order to develop a stable
concentration, you have to meditate over and over again.
Accept the fact that you cannot hold or preserve the results of
your practice. One day you probably will reach the ninth stage
of samatha. The next day you discover that you are only at the
second stage and have to start almost from the very beginning.
And so it goes.
Question: How shall we purify our karma?
Answer: By applying loving kindness. You also have to recall

your bad deeds and ask for forgiveness anyone you have
insulted. But it is a long process, it takes much more than one
day. Using our memory, we can explore the depths of our
karma.
Imagine a hand with five fingers. When seeing it from aside

you only see one finger. When reading books you only see one
side of reality. Your spiritual practice allows you to turn this
hand and to see all five fingers of the world around us.
Question: Can you please name the typical faults of a

beginner?
Answer: There are two typical faults of a beginner. The first

one is getting attached to one’s own memory, or to the past.
The second one is judging one’s own experience relying on
books. Your experience seldom coincides with what is written
in books, as any book only sees one finger of reality.
Emotions are always around us. However, they cannot harm us

as long as we preserve mindfulness. This is what I call “school
practice.”
The “university practice” is mindfulness and calmness that

occur spontaneously.
Question: How important is the position of our body?
Answer: It is important at the beginning of your path. In order

to make progress, you need to take a formal position of your
body as it is described in books.
In books, you see different persons with their spiritual
experience, but any one of them goes his or her own way, this
is why such books don’t make very much sense.
You may concentrate on your chest, on your face, and so on.
The difference between samatha and vipassana can be

described by means of a green bottle. Samatha asks questions
such as: Where does this green bottle come from? Who has
produced it? Vipassana only says: I know this green bottle and
I do not want to hold it.
There were no meditations in the morning. Instead of it there

was a big celebration in the monastery because of two young
laymen having received a temporal monastic ordination. We
also had a conversation with Amanda Sinton, an English
teacher from the U.S. employed at a local school. Yekaterina
upset a cup and saw a snake in the bathroom (see Appendix
One).
Evening observations: the more activities you have during a

meditation (such as walking, counting breaths, and so on) and
the more attentive you are, the less place remains in your mind
for distracting thoughts. But it also tires you more than usual.
It is impossible to be mindful when sleeping (at least at this

stage), and this is because the mind detaches itself from the
body.
Pleasant sensations such as shivers in the domain of shoulders

were observed in the cave.
The absence of external distractions leads to slow in- and

exhalations.
Meditation in the cabin on the hill was not successful:

drowsiness, pain, and distractions were the only results. For a
while, I tried to resist them and then dropped it.
There were pleasant sensations on the seashore; different

colours appeared: violet, then light green. Then they dissolved
in a grey haze with something resembling a temple and other
images. Eyes were half-closed.
CONVERSATION SIX — JUNE 14, 2015
Question: Shall we practise awareness of the sensation

produced by the air on the very tip of the nose? Or is simple
watching our breath just enough?
Answer: At this stage, you need to concentrate neither too

much nor too deeply. Just be mindful. Observe sensations in
all parts of your body. Don’t follow mental pictures. These
pictures are multiplied endlessly. You will have more than a
thousand pictures, one like another. If you get attached to
them they will lead you aside. Simply cognise them and release
them as soon as you have learnt them.
Question: If one feels like falling asleep and has tried

everything to counteract this feeling (like opening one’s eyes,
rubbing one’s ears, looking at the light etc.), all of which
measures have been ineffective, does it make any sense to go
on with meditation? Or shall one simply have a short sleep?
Answer: Meditation and sleep are actually very close together.

There are many things we can do to avoid drowsiness. Open
your eyes, or increase your mindfulness. If it still doesn’t help
try to change the position of your body or begin a walking
meditation. Cover the whole of your body with your attention
without concentrating on a particular part of your body. If you
do all this, I believe your sleepiness will disappear in ten to
fifteen minutes.
Question: There are different approaches to meditation, as

meditation by walking very slow, meditation by walking with a
natural speed, meditation by sitting in a relaxed manner,
meditation by sitting with a keen attention, either multi-
pointed or single-pointed, etc. Shall we try all of them until we
have discovered the best one? Or shall we just choose one of
them and stick to it? Or shall we just do what the teacher says?
Or shall we engage ourselves in any of these meditations for a
longer period, say, for a month, and so try them all during a
year?
Answer: Stay in the present moment. This will be the best

approach in your case.
It is very important to be mindful in your everyday life. I mean

general mindfulness towards the whole of your body and
towards all feelings etc. without any particular object. Spend
seventy per cent of your practice on this type of awareness and
thirty per cent on formal meditations of different kinds. This
recommendation holds for Boris.
Have no doubts, have no fears, do not think of the future, stay

in the present moment.
Report by Yekaterina: The beach is the best place for

meditation in my case. Twice I had a feeling of my body
growing very large. I counted my breaths first, then observed
them without counting. So I got this pleasant feeling that first
spread all over the body and then this feeling of a growing
body. It lasted longer than before, and I wasn’t afraid to lose it
this time.
Ajahn Den: You have passed beyond an ordinary level. But

still, all of this is an illusion. Do not get attached to these
pictures, do not be afraid of them. Relax even more than you
do now, go on with your meditation, calmly separate your
mind and your body. You may observe all these things as long
as you know that they are illusionary. Any illusion tries to seize
us and to rob us of our awareness. This is why you shall divide
your mind from your body. Remain in the current of your
illusions and know that all of them will come and go without
harming you.
After this stage, I mean after you have detached yourself from
the pleasant sensations of growing and so on, you will see an
open path before you. To see the path your mind must be free
and unprejudiced, unbiased. Everyone has his or her own piti.
I, for instance, used to have a feeling of bugs creeping all over
my face. It was produced by my previous karma. Every next
jhana arouses a stronger piti that the previous one. Do not get
attached to any of these pitis.
Question: What is the best place for meditation in our case?
[Note: We has four main places for meditation, being the

shadow of a tree on the seashore, the cave, the temple, the
cabin on the hill.]
Answer: Choose the seashore if you like this place. It may

become your main point, the point of your calmness. Being far
away, in other places, you still may imagine this shore. At the
beginning of one’s practice, one needs external aids such as a
good place and so on. Later on, they are no longer needed.
Boris may imagine the cave. In short, imagine the place where
you used to achieve the best results of your meditations and
where you have reached calmness.
Both samatha and vipassana must support each other and be

developed at the same pace. Do not get attached to
phenomena, powers, or visions. All of them are just products
of your meditation. They also may instruct you as long as you
do not attach yourself to them.
Question: How shall we instruct other people (provided that

we shall)?
Answer: You must teach them both samatha and vipassana.

Do not regard these two as independent entities. Do not teach
to develop an artificial concentration. When teaching, you may
use special Buddhist terms, but remember that terms in
themselves are nor reality. You have to show reality to others
rather just to speak of it. Do not say the path is very hard when
instructing beginners (although it is hard), it will scare them
and let them think that the way to go has no end. It the
beginning, you teach easy things, then you proceed with more
difficult ones, but you shall constantly return to the very
beginning. Concentration on one’s breath is an important
method, but not the only one. There is a big number of other
methods all of which may be used and taught.
Remember that no kalyanamitta [a “good friend”, an

instructor, a teacher] ever helps in the case the person he or
she instructs is not engaged in the real practice. You cannot
learn a country just by its map. In the same way, you cannot
learn meditation just by learning its theory.
Question: What shall we do after we have returned to Russia?
Answer: You cannot possibly practise all the time. However,

try to stay alert in your everyday life, even if only occasionally.
Choose a base for your calmness (like the seashore and such).
Devote thirty per cent of your practice to formal meditations
with watching your breath and so on. It is much better to have
a peaceful mind for one or three minutes only than not to have
any peace of mind at all.
No results on the seashore in the morning. Too many thoughts.

Different [mental] pictures on the hill after lunch. No
particular results during the first session.
During the second session, there was a feeling of the skull

being opened at its top and of a whirl. After switching to
kankamana this sensation remained but grew milder.
During the third session, the same sensation appeared,

accompanied by a deep and unperturbed calmness. There was
nothing to care for or be troubled by. A spontaneous sympathy
towards anything around (as birds etc.) arose. No thoughts
appeared. This state of mind didn’t last longer than five or ten
minutes.
In the cave I watched two different processes at the same time,

one of them on the top of my head, observed by means of
samatha, another one — in the lower part of my body, observed
by vipassana. Deep calmness arose, combined with a feeling of
a physical fatigue.
Observing emotions stops them as if they were an electric

device plugged off from the socket. The observation destroys a
channel between emotions and the self by means of which
channel they are powered. This channel also provides a sort of
glue that holds together separate emotional moments so that
these separate moments appear to us as one single emotion
(which they, in fact, are not).
Question: Is it possible to destroy bad karma by means of

meditation?
When engaging in vipassana, even in case you try to watch only

one object, other objects are spontaneously being observed.
Shall they be watched, too?
CONVERSATION SEVEN — JUNE 16, 2017
Yekaterina: No much progress today.
Ajahn Den: It doesn’t matter, go on.
Yekaterina: Observation was spontaneous and unstrained.
Ajahn Den: It is all right. Do not think of the future. Do not try
to hold one particular moment, place, or state of mind. Let
them go. Watch, cognise, and let go.
At any single instant only one emotion exists, so we observe

only this one. If we try to observe many emotions, our mind is
unstable and restless, and this is not good for us.
Vipassana sometimes leads to samatha. Samatha allows us to

calm down. Having established this calmness, we can return to
vipassana.
Question from Yekaterina: What shall we observe if nothing

happens in our mind?
Answer: Observe this “nothing,” this darkness. Do not try to

create thoughts if there are none.
Yekaterina: Today I saw colours without trying to see them.
Ajahn Den: This is correct. All colours and such are just
illusions. You may cognise them and even enjoy them. But it
makes no sense to get attached to them. They have no sense.
Thousands of different multi-coloured illusions may appear.
Tell them, “You have come to cheat me.” Anytime they distract
you, the creation of new thoughts begins, and the samsara
continues.
Question from Yekaterina: Can I help others by means of an
additional energy created by meditation?
Answer: Yes. But you still need to develop this power which
requires more concentration. Remember your concentration
on the stone and other such techniques. You must be able to
put your own power into any other thing in almost the same
way you did it with the stone. Pay attention to any sensation,
but get attached to none of them. One needs to cultivate this
power within oneself if one wants to help others in this
manner.
At the beginning of your path, you shall learn and see as much
as you can. Only after you have developed your power you may
help others by means of this power. I would not advise you to
do it now because of many distractions and phenomena in
your mind.
In the end, we give up everything, including powers and such,

but before practising renunciation you must develop what you
want to give up.
Yekaterina: There is so little time here at the monastery to

develop anything!
Answer: True. But it is just an “essay.” To be sure, you cannot

finish your development in twenty days. But this power cannot
be cultivated by force and prematurely, this development
cannot be accelerated, and you know it. You achieve nothing if
you just make more efforts and apply more concentration. It
was good for you to see these powers. It is not necessary for
you to go the path of supernatural phenomena right now,
though.
The core and the foundation of all practices is your breath. I

wanted to show you that all cognizable things are the same in
their essence.
We have a stable unshakable point somewhere in our heart.
Resting in this point, we may observe things around us in
order to learn what leads to suffering and what doesn’t,
without any wish to hold anything.
Staying in the present moment is very important.
Yekaterina: Yes, if you are happy in this present moment. Else

it leads to suffering.
Answer: You see, common people always create thoughts. We

do no such thing. We just observe. Cognition of phenomena is
much better than thinking. You do not need sophisticated
words. You only need words to share your experience.
Sometimes we must go back to the beginning of our practice.

This is our foundation. One must go through the first stages of
one’s path over and over again. Your path is not in words. It is
in your practice.
Question from Yekaterina: Can the small crystal ball you had
given me before help me in my practice?
Answer: Yes. Just focus on this ball. It is easier to cognise such

things as a ball than your breath. This ball will change, too. So
just try. Seek and find what is the best way for you. There are
different postures and meditations in the prayer book that I
gave you. Try them all. Use a small crystal ball rather than a
big one. Think of it, remember its form. Regard it as a part of
yourself, feel it in the same way you feel yourself. Then
concentrate on it by means of your breath. You can dissolve it
in any part of your body in your imagination. A ball is a good
method, as it can be seen and touched. There is no much
difference in which one of the two you use, a ball or your
breath.
Question from Boris: Is it reasonable to use a deep breath

during meditation? I mean such breath that is deliberately
made slow.
Answer: A deep and slow breath is very important because it

generates calmness by means of an open and direct cognition
of this breath. A slow breath makes your observation calm. You
cannot keep this state of mind forever, though, so just go to
another state of mind when this one finishes. Release anything
easily. When being out of doors, we see a house as a single
entity. Having entered the house, we see all details of its
interior as the furniture and such. This is vipassana. Suppose
that you see this “furniture” and realize that this is a bad thing.
Then return to your main point.
A deep and slow breath is a good technique. Some

practitioners may need additional aids. In short, every
practitioner has it his or her own way.
Question from Boris: Is it true that the self, or “I”, is a glue

which holds separate emotional instances together?
Answer: This is a correct description. The same view on the

self has [have texts on] paticcha-samuppada [the chain of
dependent origination]. One needs to cognise a short stop
between two instant tiny phenomena.
Question: Can bad karma be destroyed by means of

meditation?
Answer: No, it cannot. You only can see different types of

karma when meditating. It must be destroyed by means of
loving kindness.
Question: Can we watch three different processes at the same

time?
Answer: Actually, yes. It the beginning, I wanted to test you;

this is why I didn’t recommend many objects for you. I believe
you can now observe them all. This is the beginning of your
learning your own karma. You are right when you do not reject
observation of all these processes. For many years I used to
walk around the forest with my parasol only and was afraid of
nothing. But once I got scared for almost no reason. I tried to
understand where this fear had come from, and so I learned a
lot about my previous karma. All these [negative] karmic
imprints may be finally removed by means of loving kindness.
Some practitioners cognise phenomena by sitting; some do it

by walking. Walking normally allows us to learn external
things, whereas sitting lets us cognise our internal phenomena.
This, of course, is not a strict rule. You cannot precisely
estimate the time you need in order to reach a perfect
calmness. Sometimes only a relatively short period of time is
needed.
Question: What particular practice do you recommend for

both of us?
Answer for Yekaterina: You need an external object, or, as we

call it, an anchor, something like the ocean, for instance. Your
element is water. So please concentrate on your element.
Answer for Boris: Engage yourself in vipassana by sitting and

be aware of the whole of your body. This can be sixty per cent
of your practice. Give the rest to vipassana by walking. After
you have mastered it concentrate on different objects as they
are: your breath, words [of mantras], counting [breaths etc.],
and so on. At the next stage, you will learn discretion, or
disjunction, of different mental processes. You will learn the
actual state of your mind. Having done this you probably reach
calmness.
Yekaterina is like a flower which means she is calm and gentle.

Boris is like a horse which means his mind is almost always
active and always explores new things.
[Note: We both are certain that Ajahn Den used this metaphor
but not so sure as to when he did it. We failed to find this
phrase in our notebooks. Ajahn might make the comparison
here or during another conversation.]
Question: Which of the two types of places for meditation is

better: one with many distracting factors or one with none of
them, as a cave and such?
Answer: Some years ago, I used to have no idea what true

emptiness is, so I was trying to observe the so-called inner
light and was inspired by visions. In this manner, I was
laboriously practising for three years. The result was the pain.
This is not a good path. However, I went on doing it until I met
a monk who then said to me: Be easier, watch what is around
you with an unstrained mind.
You must learn to divide the processes you observe (such as

your breath) into fragments. You must see their being discrete.
A practitioner once realizes the point after which all things
around him or around her will become his or her teachers.
As for you, try to meditate on kasinas, or many special objects.

Your regard them, memorize them, and then hold them in your
memory. There are many kasinas as circles of different
colours, the impermanence of your body, and such. You can
use a candle or a small spot of light of any colour as a kasina,
too. You reach concentration on them by the assistance of your
breath.
Before you reach the Nirvana you must renounce everything

and follow no single movement of your mind.
Question: Is mindfulness the same as the control?
Answer: Yes, mindfulness is controlling your mind, your

consciousness, your spirit.
Question: It is difficult to combine control with relaxation.

How shall we do it?
Answer: You control your mind and you relax in your body.
This is what is called nama and rupa, or “name” and “form.”
This is the way to combine vipassana with samatha. When I
touch a book with my hand I cognise it directly. This is rupa.
When I see a book and call it a book, when I call things and
processes by their names I also cognise them. This is nama.
Question: Where is the true relaxation, where does it exist? Is

it only in samatha?
Answer: It is in your body. You couldn’t truly relax if you had

no body, you would have nothing to relax then. We need our
body with its movements to realize this.
To follow the path of meditation means to develop your

spirituality. Twelve nidanas are of a great importance. The
nidanas in their actual state are learnt and discovered by
mindfulness.
Try by yourselves to find the way that would be the best one for
you.
Recommendation for Yekaterina: Don’t be afraid of the ocean

covering your whole body.
Question: What will be the next step?
Answer: Don’t think of the next step. It will be revealed by

itself.
Generally, there are only five basic emotions:

(1) lust, or craving,
(2) doubt,
(3) greediness,
(4) hatred,
(5) jealousy.
All of them create the tanha which is a wish to live or not to

live. We must find the middle way between the wish to be and
that one not to be. The middle way is to simply observe. There
will be no result without practice.
Recommendation for Yekaterina: Don’t be afraid of illusions.

Know them, observe them, and stay calm. Remember this
recommendation.
Question: Can we practise at night?
Answer: You can do it in the morning. [Note: No direct answer

was given.] Don’t be scared even if you get a feeling as if you
had no body at all and other such feelings.
Increase your mindfulness before you start your meditation.

Use a concrete item if mindfulness is wanting.
Question: Shall we write a book about this conversation?
Answer: No need. I am a common monk. Don’t get attached to

me, simply go on with your practice. Practice is something
books seldom speak of.
[Note: As everyone can see we disobeyed this

recommendation. If we didn’t the book would be never written.
Ajahn Den finally approved the book.]
Most of people think of the future all the time, and so the
present moment escapes from them.
You have to divide processes into separate moments and

things into separate characteristics in order to understand
them better. The more you divide the better for you. It is your
mindfulness that provides you with details.
Every time our mind follows a particular thought or emotion it

allows itself to be carried away. This creates passions and
wrong deeds.
Where do our emotions spring from? From our memory, from

similar conditions of our previous lives or of this life.
Every time you make a mistake or are carried away return to
the right path. Do not think of how much time it takes. Don’t
think of time at all. When meditating stop all thoughts even
about the present moment, let alone of the future and the past.
Nothing special happened on the seashore. I tried to choose a

red circle or a skull as a kasina without much result.
Everything got muddled.
There was an intense feeling in the upper third of my head

when meditating in the cave. Currents of energy within my
body were observed. Different limbs of my body started to
move spontaneously by themselves. They moved from the left
to the right and back and then in a circular manner. After I had
recited buddho for 108 times this movement stopped. There
were several spontaneous openings of the mouth. There was
awareness of the skull being present within my head during
the meditation.
CONVERSATION EIGHT — JUNE 17, 2015
Question: Shall we continue our practice when strange

sensations appear or spontaneous movements of body
happen? Shall I stop them or follow them in the case they
appear or happen again?
Answer: Do not follow these movements. All of these

phenomena are illusionary. Many practitioners become scared
by them, but there is nothing to be afraid of.
Any mind that is free from suffering is absolutely pure. This

purity lets powers appear. Do not follow these powers and
don’t get attached to them. You may get other demonstrations
in the future. These demonstrations are the beginning of
jhanas.
Create a space between powers and yourself. This space must

protect your mind. Go on watching your breath and learn your
powers, be persistent, never yield. Eventually they will
surrender. The same applies to pictures and visions. Simply
watch them and stay in the calm place of your mind.
Question: What is the correct way to meditate on kasinas?
Answer: First of all, watch all these circles and remember their
colours. Then hold them in your memory and observe them
within yourself. But pay attention: you don’t need to control
this imaginary circle, you need to observe it. Of course, you try
to hold its colour. But it is not the kasina in itself that is
important. Which is important is our mind that handles this
kasina this or that way. You cognise the details of this
imaginary circle, and this is how you cognise your mind. A
kasina is a mental substitute for the stone in your hand.
Having cognised a kasina, you can control your mind.
Who is afraid? Where is our fear? Is it in the phenomena or in
our mind? To be sure, it is in our mind. Cognise both sides of
anything: the good one and the bad one. Don’t be afraid of
none of the two. This is the middle way.
A concentration on a kasina is an attempt to learn what

happens with this kasina as well as an attempt to resist mental
changes. It is needed to develop spiritual powers.
Question: What shall we do if the kasina we concentrate on

changes all the time?
Answer: Instead of trying to keep it by force you should rather

find a calm place within your mind and bring your kasina to
this place where it can stay stable.
Anything is impermanent, including spiritual powers. Some

phenomena, though, stay for the time being, this is why I like
samatha. More often they disappear having appeared three
times. It is not possible to keep them; neither does it have any
sense. These phenomena are just your hobby, your
amusement, the game we play.
The Buddha himself said that vipassana cannot be

recommended to everyone.
A coloured circle in its capacity of a kasina may change so that

it finally covers the whole of your body. This is simply a way to
get in touch with the major elements.
Question: Shall we repeat mantras as buddho and the like?
Answer: You may do it. Mantras have almost the same effect.
The phenomena that flow through your mind sometimes show

you pictures from the past, or your karma. Observe them,
cognise them, and let them go.
There are three main bases of Buddhist spiritual practice for a
layperson:
(1) good deeds;
(2) discipline, or morality;
(3) meditation.
These bases are slightly different for a monk:

(1) discipline;
(2) meditation;
(3) wisdom.
It is wisdom that leads to the Nirvana.
Question form Yekaterina: I do not observe any essential

purpose [of my meditation]; I am attacked by numerous
thoughts and find it difficult to concentrate. What shall I do
with it?
Answer: Every next day your practice will be different, and

this is not something you must be troubled by. In your case,
you need a calm place, but you also need to learn what an
unstable and a restless mind looks like, as it is exactly this state
of mind that exists in the world and in the human society.
Recommendation for Boris: Meditation on kasinas of any sort

will be useful for you. You may concentrate on a red circle, on a
yellow circle, and so on.
Question from Yekaterina: It looks like I control my breath too

much, and this is why I have difficulties with my breath. How
shall I correct it?
Answer: Try to watch your breath, but don’t apply too much
effort. Your attention must be natural.
Yekaterina: The problem is that I count my breaths [as I was

taught before in Wat Buddhavihara], and I don’t find counting
breaths very natural.
Answer: Anytime you observe something unnatural, please
return to what you consider to be natural. It is reasonable in
your case to stop counting or even watching your breath for the
time being. You must protect your mind by means of
mindfulness.
Yekaterina: At the end of the day I now have a stable

concentration on the image of the Buddha, calmness also
arises.
Answer: It is very good. To be honest, you never know what is

actually good for us. Any method may bring us forward
provided that we detach ourselves from this method. Don’t get
attached to anything. Only observe, cognise, and let go.
Question from Yekaterina: Sometimes I feel like going out of

my body and rising upwards. I have fear not to be able to
return.
Answer: Everything may happen during a meditation. Some

people even levitate in reality. You have simply to observe
these things. When your mind learns them in their details it
calms down.
Sometimes you are capable of seeing your body from aside,

from behind, and so on. Do not get attached to it, and don’t get
excited over this fact.
You cannot cognise anything without cognizing phenomena,

neither can you develop your wisdom without cognizing them.
Cognise them first, and only then release them. You should not
release anything without having learnt it in details before.
It may happen that the power of phenomena will let you learn
your karma, your future, and many other things that are
normally hidden from our senses.
The main motto of Buddhism is: Don’t rely on miracles but

help yourself by your own efforts.
The five vows of a layperson are very important, especially at

the beginning of your path.
If you respect others you will be respected also. This is how

karma works.
If you give teaching don’t begin with something sophisticated.

It is easy things most people need. Only later you can proceed
with complex themes, especially when people ask questions
showing that these themes really must be explained.
You shall generate a good sense of kasina in your mind. Of this

later.
In the morning, several attempts to observe a red disk as a

kasina were made, all unsuccessful. It wasn’t even possible to
establish it as an object of concentration. A strong headache
was interfering all the time (I forgot to turn off a fan in my cell
for the night, and this could be the possible cause).
In the cave, the same feelings as the day before were observed,
but they shifted towards the back of the head. Pain in the rest
of the head. Where these two areas came in touch both pain
and the sense of current were felt.
Recitation of buddho was practised, it led to “electricity”

generated within the head and spreading down towards the
neck and lower. There was a feeling that this “electricity” might
cover the whole of the body if watched long enough.
No progress with meditation by walking. The same four points

were being observed.
A deep-blue bottle lid was observed as a [basis for a] kasina for

a while.
Samatha and vipassana have a different taste. Samatha is

similar to a work of a watchmaker or a jeweller, and is
pleasant. Vipassana looks and feels like a job of an ox-driver,
whereas the ox continually tries to turn left or right, so you
have to direct the beast straight ahead all the time. It is more
painful than pleasant.
CONVERSATION NINE — JUNE 18, 2015
Ajahn Den: You may experience a lot of emotions, but you will
be safe as long as you are protected by your mindfulness.
Question: How do you teach children?
[Note: More than thirty schoolchildren stayed at the

monastery over two nights and attained classes of meditation
organized by monks in the big prayer hall.]
Answer: In the same way we teach you. We teach them to be

attentive towards their breath. They normally start with
reciting buddho. I also must say that children usually progress
more quickly than adults, as they have less mental concepts
and less suffering. They only need to be shown the way. Some
of them will become novice monks. The children you saw today
are just beginners. They need easy things: fifteen to twenty
minutes of meditation, a small number of lessons on applying
the teaching to their everyday life. It will be fine for them to
keep one vow as it is. Later on, they will learn to keep all the
rest of them. The law of karma and such is explained to them
by drawing easy examples from their everyday life. It is like: If
you want to steal a phone, please think of consequences of this
deed. The sense of all vows will be explained to them in this
manner, little by little. It is very important for them to truly
realize the heart essence of all the vows and not just to
memorize them mechanically. In order to achieve it, we must
in our explanations rely on our live, not on books.
Question: Do seminars as this one belong to the school

curriculum?
Answer: Yes, they are more or less regular. Normally we

receive three or four schools in one summer. Sometimes we
have 180 children at once. They usually stay for three days.
This is a short program. A long program lasts ten to fifteen
days and is designed for novice monks.
Boris: We have no such school programs, unfortunately. Most

parents in Russia are afraid of religion.
Ajahn Den: I guess it happens in Thailand because it is simply

a part of our culture. Both tradition and individual practice
may be regarded as the spiritual path. The latter is to some
extent more efficient. However, both of them are needed and
useful.
If a student has studied and keeps the five vows, it makes sense
for him or her to proceed with the eight vows.
Question: The heat is our biggest problem here. Today it was

tolerable, especially on the seashore, but normally it is very
hard to meditate in such heat. What shall we do with it?
Answer: Imagine the ocean before you start your meditation,

and you will relax this way. You can do it everywhere. Images
of the ocean and such are especially important at the beginning
of your path. They make your mind stronger. Once you will be
strong enough to do without them.
Yekaterina: Today I had a longer session than usual.
Ajahn Den: It is not so important. Time is for children. Think

neither of time nor of result you want to achieve.
Yekaterina: Today I had the same sensations as before with an

additional one: my body became as heavy as a stone.
Ajahn Den: Once you will feel as if you were rising up.
Yesterday we spoke about your feeling very lightweight. Learn
the difference between these two conditions. It is exactly these
sensations who is your teacher. If you cognise something,
cognise also the opposite to it. Always keep the Four Noble
Truths in your mind. Good things or bad things regard all of
them with indifference. Cognise the Four Noble Truths and
realize that each of them has two sides. Don’t be afraid of it. Do
not reject both sides of everything. The development of your
wisdom is still in progress, so don’t expect to understand all
this at once.
Cognise things and release them. This is all we have to do.

Don’t think about the weather. The weather is not important.
No factor that distracts your attention must be important.
Yekaterina: Today I tried to focus on the crystal you had given

me before. I saw it within myself as something very pure, and I
felt very calm. Several times I had a feeling of its growing the
size of my body.
Ajahn Den: It is true. The crystal sometimes covers the whole

of the body.
Question from Boris: I watched different sensations within my

body today, like whirls, vibrations etc., some of them not very
pleasant. What shall we do with them?
Answer: Sensations are many. Simply detach yourself from

them. Sensations can be endless in number. One produces
another, and so it goes on forever. You don’t need to create
them by watching them too intently. You only need to
understand how your mind works.
If you have no wish to get attached to anything this is a good

sign. This position allows you to enter the first jhana. Having
entered it, you may go even deeper. This is a path of samatha.
On this path, you may observe creations of your mind under
the condition you don’t get attached to them. Be a detached
spectator. Don’t worry about the speed of your progress. In the
beginning, you usually feel as if you were going very slow.
Later on, you will progress more quickly. Do not try to find a
shortcut or a special trick to accelerate your progress. No such
shortcuts and no such tricks ever help.
Question: I have a feeling that at the beginning of my practice I
somehow progressed more quickly than I do now. Can it be
true?
Answer: It often happens. In the beginning, everything goes

smoothly, and later on, it suddenly doesn’t, because you know
what to expect and you anticipate your results. What happens
with you is a very common case. You simply need more
concentration. But first of all, you must give up every kind of
planning and anticipating things.
Every time your past experience repeats itself you are not on
the right way. There will be days on which you won’t have any
result at all. If there is nothing, simply observe this
nothingness. Do not make plans; do not expect to get a
particular result. Having achieved a specific state of mind,
simply observe it. Stay within this state of mind, do not
anticipate the next stage. You are slowly moving from a
kindergarten to a primary school where more subjects are
taught. The first time you encounter a new state of mind is
normally similar to a demonstration. It is something like a
short video sequence, a clip, a trailer, a preview. At the
beginning of a new film in a cinema you normally watch some
trailers, but sooner or later the actual film begins. It has much
more details in itself and is much deeper.
Please remember that you only have to observe what happens

now. This is our only duty. You don’t need to create anything
or to look for explanations why this or that happens.
Every time you begin your meditation do it as if it were the

first time, and your mind will spontaneously bring you to the
level you have achieved before. Don’t do anything deliberately;
your mind will take care of itself.
To be sure, you can compare the results of one meditation with

those of another one, but please do it after the meditation is
over. In the progress of an actual meditation do not try to
remember what is said in books or what you received as oral
instructions. Stay in the present moment. This is the actual
way of satipatthana, shown by the Buddha.
Now you have more details, so please observe them. You can
observe anything. Close your eyes and you will see the
darkness. Observe this darkness, then.
KASINAS
A meditation on a kasina is actually a concentration on one

object. If you want to watch your breath, concentrate upon it.
Or you can focus on a red circle. Don’t strain yourself. If the
object you imagine in your mind changes, let it do so and
simply observe these changes. Do not worry to keep this image
steady. If it stays unchanged it is fine, but if it changes simply
watch it, and the original image will return sooner or later.
After you have familiarised yourself with it you must learn this
circle by the whole of your body, you must imprint this image
into your body, so to say. Normally it takes only a week. As a
result, you will actually see this image every time you
remember it. Sometimes you can achieve it in five days only.
You will see it as a bright entity, not as a pale and unexpressive
paper circle. Sometimes it will abide in you, and sometimes
you will be within it.
Question: Do we always need a real object or image at the

beginning of our practice?
Answer: Normally, yes, you do. You need it to familiarise

yourself with it. It can be drawn on paper and so on. It is the
same with a crystal ball. After you have made yourself familiar
with it you will see that you don’t actually need this drawing or
item any longer.
Question: Is it important how we imagine the crystal?
Answer: The way you do it is not so important in itself. The

crystal can be inside or outside of you. Or it can be the
emptiness, or space, or your body you concentrate on.
Technically speaking it is not important whether you
concentrate on a red circle or on a top of your head.
You won’t need any real object later on. A real object is simply
one of the tricks that help us tame and bind our mind. If you
are aware of it you can choose any object. I have shown you the
beginning of practice: how to use an object and how to protect
your mind against phenomena.
All you need is mindfulness, don’t get excited over your powers
or achievements. Transform your [theoretical] knowledge into
sensations, stay in them, don’t worry, have no doubts, don’t
think too much of things like the difference between samatha
and vipassana and so on. Allow yourself to stay within what
you perceive and don’t get attached to it. Don’t create concepts.
A thought what it is that you are now engaged in, samatha or
vipassana, is already a creation of a concept, and this process
will lead you away from observing things as they are.
A correct attitude is to wait and to be ready for the new at

every instant. Do not anticipate.
Mindfulness is similar to thinking, and yet they are different.

Every time you notice that the future is in your thoughts you
deal with thinking. Return to the present every time you have
noticed it.
Do not go many ways at once. Choose one and go this way if

you want to have positive results. Afterwards, you will be able
to use different methods. When learning how to drive a car you
only focus on one procedure at once. It is quite impossible to
learn any skill otherwise.
You always create new thoughts and concepts. But even they
may be helpful during your meditation. Go on observing them.
Question: Is it true that we should try different approaches

before we choose the best one?
Answer: Yes, it is so. But after you have selected one approach
please don’t combine it with the others. Try to succeed in
applying it in its pure form. However, if it doesn’t bring any
results in five to seven days, try another one.
Recommendation for Yekaterina: Work with the crystal. If you

strain yourself too much, relax and then resume. Don’t think of
time. Meditate at any time of the day you like. No one knows
when the result will come.
When beginning your meditation start from a stable point you

have learnt before. Any object can be used for your
concentration on it. It is wisdom not thinking that you need.
Do samatha or vipassana, as you like, but keep away from
thinking. Right now you are not very certain about the best
method for you, because you have tried many approaches. Go
on trying, three to five days for each new method.
Question: For how long can we stop our practice without its
degenerating?
Answer: It is difficult to say, as it depends on a personal karma

in each case. Meditation is not a physical training and not
something like [the Western] yoga. It lasts for the whole life.
The only case that we can safely stop it is reaching the Nirvana.
Try to meditate in your everyday life.
Question: What kind of everyday activities allow us to

maintain our meditation skills?
Answer: You must have glimpses of mindfulness in your

everyday life. Or you can go back to your peaceful state of mind
when you are stressed with the daily routine. You need to
achieve deep serenity. Having once fully reached it, you will
keep it for the rest of your life. Meditation cannot give you
millions, yet it allows you to change your life.
In the morning I didn’t meditate too much and was reading

Dostoyevsky instead.
Vipassana was practised in the temple, and I have noticed that

it actually can have two modes: observing physical processes or
observing mental processes. The former mode allows to
concentrate but is a bit tiresome and doesn’t feel very natural.
Meditation in the latter mode seems to have no end.
Kasinas were not watched, because I couldn’t decide on the

colour. Sounds might be better as an object of concentration,
or perhaps the image of the Buddha would be still better, as it
has moral value.
During a samatha session later on, sensations in my head and

a peculiar feeling of warmth around the heart were observed.
The same sensations were also generated by reciting buddho. A
thought of using a mantra instead of a coloured circle came. A
wish to love everyone lasted for some minutes. But is it really
necessary to love everyone? I should ask Ajahn.
CONVERSATION TEN — JUNE 19, 2015
Ajahn Den: What you have learnt here during your stay was
actually only an introduction. But I hope that you are ready for
more serious practices now. Are you?
We cannot stop any emotion that comes. We shouldn’t

forcefully stop our energies; we shouldn’t bar what comes from
nature. We should rather learn deeply everything that comes.
Don’t try to predict your further development. Stay in now and

do not grasp at anything when you do so. All mental
phenomena lead you away from your path, so do not follow
them.
Question from Boris: What is a better object of observation:

physical items or mental processes like thoughts and feelings?
Answer: You have to follow what the Buddha taught. And He

said that your mindfulness starts from your body. This is
exactly what is called a Buddhist meditation. We all speak of
spirituality, but everything starts from matter. Cognise your
karma, and you will avoid the mistake of being too proud. But
how do you cognise your karma? You have to study your body.
Your body is what it all starts from. It is through our body that
we cognise suffering and types of suffering, and our spiritual
cure begins with learning these things.
You see, karma, too, originates from your body. You cannot be
very certain about your future or about your past. So the
present is the only thing left for us to learn. But how do you
learn the present? You do it through learning your body. What
we don’t know we can be taught by meditation.
You don’t need to ask questions during the actual meditation.

You only need to ask them in order to guide your meditation
into the right direction before it has started. After it has started
you must simply proceed.
Go on with samatha, and all phenomena will finally disappear.
Question: Does the colour of a kasina have any meaning?
Answer: Yes, it has.
Question: It would probably be better for me to concentrate on

the image of the Buddha, as it has moral value, wouldn’t it?
Answer: Yes, because you did it even before. Your breath is one
of the possible kasinas. Apply your experience of observing
your breath to the image of the Buddha. Make the Buddha a
part of yourself.
The colour of a kasina depends on the type of your personality.

Someone with many passions needs red, a calm person needs a
white kasina, and so on.
The end of your meditation is where you do nothing and only

abide in peace.
If you do no harm to others and don’t provoke them, they in

their turn won’t harm you. It is the same with mental
phenomena: stay away from them, and they won’t touch you.
Mindfulness is your path.
Such factors as keeping the five or the eight vows, a very

limited number of personal belongings and so on do much
good at the beginning of your path.
Question: Shall I observe the warmth in the area of my heart?
Answer: Such phenomena are sometimes produced by

mantras, and mantras can be regarded as a means for
beginners. Every time you lose your mindfulness you can go
back to reciting a mantra.
The longer we are engaged in supporting our mindfulness the

more it grows. This is the first thing you need.
Question: Can the sound [of mantra etc.] be chosen as a

kasina?
Answer: The Buddha said that kasinas are only road signs.
Mindfulness and spiritual power are of more importance. You
should try to let them grow every day. Do not think of how long
it will take. Be in the present moment. We do not know how
and when our path will end, neither shall we try to learn it.
Question from Yekaterina: Today I worked with the crystal

ball. I have noticed that it is easier for me to keep it in mind
during my everyday activity than during a formal sitting
meditation. What is the correct approach in this case?
Answer: Do it how it suits you best. You see, you have to

observe it without much effort. It can glow by itself, for
instance. But if you make efforts to let it glow you eventually
will get attached to it. In this case, you must take a step back
and return to an observation without effort.
The same applies to any kasina. Sometimes it is very bright, it

glows, and you may get attached to it. In this case, a step back
is needed. It also applies to feelings of serenity, happiness,
calmness, and so on.
Phenomena have many ways to allure us. We have to cognise

all these ways in order to escape them.
Viññana, meaning spirituality or our mind, can bring us both

to heaven and hell. It depends on our mind where we go. An
uncontrolled mind certainly leads us to hell. This is why
control of the mind is needed. After your death, only your
mind remains. You may also call it your spirit.
We do not need special mechanisms or sophisticated tools in
order to develop our mind. We have within us all we need for
it, and the process is more or less simple.
Yekaterina: I also tried to practise vipassana today, but it

looks like I didn’t go very far.
Answer: Do not try to determine whether it is samatha or

vipassana during your actual meditation. Lack of wisdom and
of what we call jhanas makes any meditation rather harmful.
Yekaterina: I tried not to worry and simply to watch my

emotions.
Answer: This is correct, simply observe them, do not think.
A feeling of nothingness is also an achievement. At some levels

of vipassana, you actually feel as if you felt and saw nothing.
Do not get attached to this state of mind. It will be followed by
other levels and states. Simply observe this change. Do not
worry about seeing this nothingness or other results. It is not
so important. If you worry it actually means that you are
getting attached. And if so, the result you have just obtained or
are going to obtain has no much value.
Yekaterina: It seems that I have learnt how to take my life

easy, at least to some extent.
Answer: You see, emotions are important, they fuel your

mind in the same way petrol fuels a car. You only need to
combine them with mindfulness.
Why do we need to be mindful towards our mental processes?

Because our mind is our main driving force. It leads us into a
new incarnation, or to heaven, or to hell. Most people cannot
reach the Nirvana at one lifetime. However, if we are attentive
towards our emotions we can stop their harmful influence and
avoid creating the new negative karma.
The Dharma is wide, but you don’t need the whole of it right
now, neither is it necessary to teach it in all details. Learn
essential things that you need and that are important to you.
The Buddha gives us a key, but it is we1 who must open the
door of knowledge, and it must be done by making a personal
effort.
Question: Shall we meditate when we have intense evil

emotions, or shall we wait for them to go?
Answer: What you need is mindfulness. It is not formal

meditations in themselves but mindfulness that is important.
Observe you evil emotions and try to see where your anger and
hatred spring from. Don’t worry about your anger. Just be
mindful. If you apply mindfulness permanently you will have
no evil feelings.
Use the kasinas at the beginning of your path and reject them
without any attachment to them after they have become not
needed.
Please use the notes you have been making to correct your
practice in the future.
Sometimes we want to punish others and cannot do so because

of our monastic vows. In this case, we should cultivate loving
kindness and so achieve the peaceful state of mind. We would
never learn what we truly are without unpleasant people
around us. And we cannot help having kilesas [“obscurations”]
so far, so don’t worry about it too much.
Please try to concentrate on the small Buddha statues I gave

you before in the same way you focused on a stone or on the
crystal ball.
1
I deliberately prefer this a bit obsolete form to “this is us” — Boris
Grechin.
Recommendation for Yekaterina: Sometimes new phenomena
and states arise. Don’t be afraid of them, don’t resist, and don’t
get attached to them. You can stay within a process without
any attachment to it. The crystal ball is good for you. You also
can use other objects.
Question: Does the absence of thoughts and emotions disturb

the practice?
Answer: Yes, it does. Emotions and thoughts do not disturb

you as long as you are not attached to them. And you actually
need them. If you don’t have any you have no power, and your
mind doesn’t work. So you need to cognise both sides.
We cannot control all our emotions. Buts as long as we are

aware of them at least five of every ten emotions will be
positive. You cannot develop wisdom without emotions, as you
will have nothing to cognise.
I have not reached the Nirvana, I only know what is called piti,
but even the piti is difficult to explain.
When a cup is broken, don’t get upset over it, it is simply a cup.
And this applies to everything.
So, do you go back to Bangkok tomorrow?
Boris: Yes, we do.
Ajahn Den: We will bring you as far as the Thapsakae bus

station, and we will buy the tickets, too.
Yekaterina, Boris: Thank you very much.
Boris: Ajahn, we also wonder if you could write us something

like a blessing.
Ajahn Den: I am not a big writer, you know.

Boris: In this case, wouldn’t you mind looking through what
we have written before and saying if you agree with it?
Ajahn Den: Yes, please. (Reads the paper written before.) [“I
hereby confirm that Boris Grechin and [Y]Ekaterina
Smolenskaya had studied and practised Buddhist meditation
under my guidance at Wat Khao Mai Lua(k) from June 2 till
June 20, 2015. I also think that they may share what they had
learned here with those people in Russia who are interested in
Buddhist meditation. Abbot of Wat Khao Mai Lua(k) Phra
Ajahn Deng.”] Yes, I agree with it, and I can sign it. (Signs the
letter: “Visit[ing] Abbot. Wat Thum Kao Mei Roak. June / 19 /
2015”) Let me see where my stamp is… (Goes to his office,
returns with the stamp of the monastery and affixes it.)
Boris: Thank you very much, indeed.
Yekaterina: We would also like to give you and Boom some

presents like this one. It is a wooden Russian doll called
“matryoshka.”
Ajahn Den: A Russian doll! How very nice of you. Yes, I know
what a matryoshka is. You see, this doll actually represents a
human being. The first outer doll is our body. Then (opens the
doll) there are our emotions inside, they exist at a subtler level.
Then (opens the second doll) there is our intelligence which is
even subtler. And so it goes. But unlike this doll, it can take
your life to explore all you have within yourself.
APPENDIX ONE. THE FROG AND THE SNAKE
On one day of our stay at Wat Tham Khao Rak Mai, two Thai
laymen were temporarily ordained, and there was a big
celebration on this occasion. The monastery was crowded with
relatives and friends of the temporal monks in question. Tea
and snacks were served in the open air. Yekaterina upset a cup
of tea and went to the bathroom of the abbot’s office we were
allowed to use in the daytime in order to quickly wash her
skirt.
There was a frog who used to live in the bathroom. It didn’t

live too long, though, for Yekaterina arrived just to see this frog
being killed and eaten by a snake. The snake must have crept
in through the drain hole in the floor. After the snake was
removed I started to close this hole by putting a plastic barrel
upon it.
We told Ajahn Den about the snake, and he asked construction

workers temporarily engaged at the monastery to remove it.
“Be careful,” he said to us very calmly. “This snake is a
poisonous one. If it bites you, you most likely die.”
The abundant and lush nature of Thailand makes Thai people

quite close to death, at least in the countryside. It is quite easy
to see how this permanent presence of a close death made
Buddhism with its constant awareness of death spread in the
region.
A truly religious person is neither afraid of death nor

sentimental about it, but simply accepts is a part of his or her
life — this is what this event taught us.
APPENDIX TWO: PHOTOS
THE MONASTIC TEMPLE
THE TEMPLE AT SUNRISE

THE MEDITATION CABIN ON THE HILL
THE CABIN FROM INSIDE

SEASHORE: VIEW FROM THE MEDITATION CABIN ON THE HILL
THE CAVE
CELEBRATION OF ORDINATION CEREMONIES AT THE MONASTERY
THROWING OF FLOWER PETALS BY THE CANDIDATE TO BE ORDAINED

ABBOT’S HOUSE AND THE VERANDA WHERE ALL CONVERSATIONS OCCURRED
THE MAIN PRAYER HALL

A FOREST CHAPEL NEAR TO THE MONASTERY
VIEW FROM THE WINDOW OF THE CELL

THE MAIN PRAYER HALL
THE SERPENT GATE

A LOCAL COW
A LOCAL DOG
DRYING OF MONKS’ ROBES
A LOCAL MOTORBIKE
THE OCEAN IN THE DAYTIME
THE OCEAN AT NIGHT

VEN. PHRA AJAHN DEN NAKATON WITH BORIS GRECHIN
VEN. BOOM WITH YEKATERINA SMOLENSKAYA

THE LETTER SIGNED BY AJAHN DEN

This short book scrupulously reproduces oral
teachings and recommendations on meditation,
received by its authors from Venerable Phra Ajahn
Den Nakaton during their stay at the Wat Tham
Khao Rak Mai monastery (Thailand) in June 2015.
It is worth to remember that we do not claim to

produce a sensation or to reveal “new truths” by
means of this humble publication. This is nothing
but a short book describing exactly what was told
us by our teacher during our stay at his
monastery, and in our eyes, it has a very
important advantage of having absolutely nothing
that may be called fictitious. It preserves our true
impressions from a living tradition of Buddhist
practice, being not a ready-made lite-version of
the Dharma, but the actual Dharma, practised in
its truthfulness by someone who has never made
any attempts to become a “spiritual celebrity.”
We also think that the unique personality of

Venerable Ajahn Den Nakaton, abbot of Wat Tham
Khao Rak Mai, is worthy of being known both in
Russia and in other countries all over the world.
ISBN: 978-0-359-19381-3

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CONVERSATIONS WITH AJAHN

Text © Boris Grechin, Yekaterina Smolenskaya, 2018

This short book scrupulously reproduces oral teachings and

It is worth to remember that we do not claim to produce a

We also think that the unique personality of Venerable Ajahn

We will be thankful to any native speaker of English who helps

© Boris Grechin, Yekaterina Smolenskaya, 2018

In May 2015 we (I and my wife) in our capacity of Russian

The annual Vesak conference and celebration in Thailand

The conference was, to be certain, a very interesting event, but

After the Vesak conference was over, we provisionally

Being left almost unobserved, we four Buddhists from Russia

We communicated very little with the local Buddhist

Our friends from Byelorussia finally went home. On that day

When inviting us to the conference, Phra Ajahn Chatree had

Finally, when we lost all hope, Phra Ajahn Chatree informed us

In Russia, we probably wouldn’t take the risk of going to an

We started at noon, it took us about six hours to get to

In most towns of Russia, winter days are normally very short

We got off in a marketplace of a small town with empty market

We explained to the girl that we were looking for the Wat

“What if we walk there? Can you show us the direction?”

Now, imagine our complete stupefaction. We had not the least

And so we were brought to the monastery where everyone was

There was a big number of dogs running free and barking at

It was an extremely hard task to explain to her that we had

I was asked to sleep in the main prayer hall. I remember very

Ven. Ajahn Den Nakaton received us in the morning, and,

Our monastic stay, the “retreat” we had dreamed about so long

(Her Thai name was, by the way, Boom. We got acquainted

After the morning chanting was over we usually took big

About 7 a.m. we had a breakfast in the monastic kitchen being

We had a separate table as it is proper for laypersons, and each

After the lunch, we usually made two more meditation sessions

We also had spare time that we could spend as we wished it:

As for locations of our meditation, we were allowed to use the

During our stay at the monastery that lasted 19 days, we never

There was a beautiful line of green electric lights along the

After the evening chanting was over, we went to the veranda of

Those instructions we were allowed to write down. I cannot

Ajahn Den sometimes took a pen and drew a rough scheme

After the evening conversation was over, we usually drank a

The reader of this book has to bear in mind that all

It is also worth to remember that we do not claim to produce a

We also think that the unique personality of Venerable Ajahn

We will be thankful to any native speaker of English who helps

Very truly yours,

Ajahn Den used most common Buddhist terms (such as the

The text of each conversation mainly consists of Ajahn Den’s

“Thoughts and Observations” only represent our own ideas

Ajahn Den: There is no need to think much of duration of your

Our mind must be protected by the wall of mindfulness (see

feelings and thoughts

PRACTICE WITH A STONE

Observe a stone on your palm with your eyes closed. Breathe

To come to the right decision one should:

FALLING ASLEEP DURING THE MEDITATION

Simple attention can stop affections as long as you do not

Moral restrictions do not have absolute value, they are only