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This book belongs to
THE LIBRARY
of
VICTORIA UNIVERSITY
Toronto 5, Canada
I
THE LOEB CLASSICAL LIBRARY
FOUNDED BY JAMES LOEB, LL.D.
EDITED BY
fT. E. PAGE, C.H., LITT.D.
t E. CAPPS, PH.D., LL.D. t W. H. D. ROUSE, Lrrr.D.
L. A. POST, M^. E. H. WARMINGTON, m.a., f.b.hist.soc.
PLATO
IV
PLATO
WITH AN ENGLISH TRANSLATION
IV
LACHES PROTAGORAS MEND
EUTHYDEMUS
BY
W. R. M. LAMB, M.A.
SOMEl'IME FELLOW OF TRIXITY COLLEGE, CAKBRIDOE
CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS
HARVARD UNIVERSITY PRESS
LONDON
WILLIAM HEINEMANN LTD
MCMLII
First printed 1924
Bevised and reprinted 1937, 1952
MN 2 s
1982
Printed in Great Britain

PREFACE
The Greek text in this volume is based on the
recension of Schanz : a certain number- of
emenda-
tions by other scholars have been adopted, and
these are noted as they occur.
The special introductions are intended merely to
prepare the reader for the general character and
purpose of each dialogue.
W. R. M. Lamb.
CONTENTS
GENERAL INTRODUCTION
Plato was born in 427 B.C. of Athenian parents who
could provide him with the best education of the
day, and ample means and leisure throughout his life.
He came to manhood in the dismal close of the
Peloponnesian War, when Aristophanes was at the
height of his success, and Sophocles and Euripides
had produced their last plays. As a boy he doubtless
heard the lectures of Gorgias, Protagoras, and other
sophists,and his early bent seems to have been
towards poetry. But his intelUgence was too pro-
gressive to rest in the agnostic position on which
the sophistic culture was based. A century before,
Heracleitus had declared knowledge to be impossible,
because the objects of sense are continually changing ;
yet now a certain Cratylus was trying to build a
theory of knowledge over the assertion of flux, by
developing some hints let fall by its oracular author
about the truth contained in names. From this
influence Plato passed into contact with Socrates,
whose character and gifts have left a singular impress
on the thought of mankind. This effect is almost
wholly due to Plato's applications and extensions of
VOL. IV A2 ix
his master's thought ; since, fortunately for us, the
pupil not only in his turn, but
became a teacher
brought his artistic genius into play, and composed
the memorials of philosophic talk which we know
as the Dialogues. Xenophon, Antisthenes, and
Aeschines were other disciples of Socrates who drew
similar sketches of his teaching the suggestion
:
came from the " mimes " of the Syracusan Sophron,

— realistic studies of conversation between ordinary
types of character. As Plato became more engrossed
in the Socratic speculations, this artistic impulse
was strengthened by the desire of recording each
definite stage of thought as a basis for new discussion
and advance.
When Plato was twenty years old, Socrates was
over sixty, and had long been notorious in Athens
for his peculiar kind of sophistry. In the Pkaedo he
tellshow he tried, in his youth, the current scientific
explanations of the universe, and found them full of
puzzles. He then met with the theory of Anax-
agoras, — that the cause of everything is " mind."
This was more promising : but it led nowhere

after
all, since it failed to rise above the conception of
physical energy ; this " mind " showed no intelligent
aim. Disappointed of an assurance that the universe

works for the best, Socrates betook himself to the
plan of making definitions of " beautiful," " good,"
" large," and so on, as qualities observed in the several
good and large material things,
classes of beautiful,
and then employing these propositions, if they
X
appeared to be sound, for the erection of higher
hypotheses. The point is that he made a new science
out of a recognized theory of " ideas " or " forms,"
which had come of reflecting on the quahty predicated
when we say " this man is good," and which postu-
lates some sure reahty behind the fleeting objects
of sense. His " hypothetical " method, familiar to
mathematicians, attains its full reach and significance
in the Republic.
The Pythagoreans who appear in the intimate
scene of the Phaedo were accustomed to the theory
of ideas, and were a fit audience for the highest
reasonings of Socrates on the true nature of life and
the soul. For some years before the master's death

(399 B-c.) Plato, if not a member of their circle, was
often a spell-bound hearer of the " satyr." But
ordinary Athenians had other views of Socrates, which
varied according to their age and the extent of their
acquaintance with him. Aristophanes' burlesque in
the Clouds (423 had left a common impression
b.c.)
not unhke what we have of the King of Laputa. Yet

the young men who had any frequent speech with
him in his later years, while they felt there was
something uncanny about him, found an irresistible
attraction in his simple manner, his humorous insight
into their ways and thoughts, and his fervent elo-
quence on the principles of their actions and careers.
He kept no school, and took no fees he distrusted
;
the pretensions of the regular sophists, with whom

he was carelessly confounded ; moreover, he professed
xi
to have no knowledge himself, except so far as to
know that he was ignorant. The earliest Dialogues,
such as the Apology, Crito, Euthyphro, Charmides,
Laches and Lysis, show the manner in which he

performed his ministry. In rousing men, especially
those whose minds were fresh, to the need of knowing
themselves, he promoted the authority of the intellect,
the law of definite individual knowledge, above all
reason of state or tie of party and it is not sur-
;
prising that his city, in the effort of recovering her

politicalstrength, decided to hush such an in-
convenient voice. He must have foreseen his fate,
but he continued his work undeterred.
Though he seems, in his usual talk, to have
professed no positive doctrine, there were one or
two beliefs which he frequently declared. Virtue,
he said, is knowledge ; for each man's good is his
happiness, and once he knows it clearly, he needs
must choose to ensue it. Further, this knowledge

is innate in our minds, and we only need to have it
awakened and exercised by " dialectic," or a system-
atic coui-se of question and answer. He also be-

lieved his mission be divinely ordained, and
to
asserted that his own actions were guided at times
by the prohibitions of a " spiritual sign." He was
capable, as we find in the Symposium, of standing in
rapt meditation at any moment for some time, and
once for as long as twenty-four hours.
It is clear that, if he claimed no comprehensive
theory of existence, and although his ethical reUance
on knowledge, if he never analysed it, leaves him in
a very crude stage of psychology, his logical and
mystical suggestions must have led his favourite
pupils a good way towards a new system of meta-
physics. These intimates learnt, as they steeped
their minds in his, and felt the growth of a imique
affection amid the glow of enlightenment, that
happiness may be elsewhere than in our dealings
with the material world, and that the mind has
prerogatives and duties far above the sphere of civic
life.
After the death of Socrates in 399> Plato spent

some twelve years in study and travel. For the
first part of this time he was perhaps at Megara,
where Eucleides, his fellow-student and friend, was
forming a school of dialectic. Here he may have
composed some of the six Dialogues already men-
tioned as recording Socrates' activity in Athens.
Towards and probably beyond the end of this period,
in order to present the Socratic method in bolder
conflict with sophistic he -wrote the
education,
Protagoras, Meno, Euthydemus, and Gorgias. These
works show a much greater command of dramatic
and literarv' art, and a deeper interest in logic. The
last of them may well be later than 387, the year in
which, after an all but disastrous attempt to better
the mind of Dionysius of Syracuse, he returned to
Athens, and, now forty years of age, founded the
Academy where the memory of his master was to
;
be perpetuated by continuing and expanding the

Socratic discussions among the elect of the new
generation. The rivalry of this private college with
the professional school of Isocrates is discernible
in the subject and tone of the Gorgias. Plato
carried on the direction of the Academy till his
death, at eighty-one, in 346 ; save that half-way
through this period (367) he accepted the invitation
of his friend Dion to undertake the instruction of the
younger Dionysius at Syracuse. The elder tyrant
had been annoyed by the Socratic freedom of Plato's
talk now it was a wayward youth who refused the
:
yoke of a systematic training. What that training

was like we see in the Republic, where true political
wisdom is approached by an arduous ascent through
mathematics, logic, and metaphysics. Plato returned,
with less hopes of obtaining the ideal ruler, to make
wonderful conquests in the realm of thought.
The Meno and Gorgias set forth the doctrine that
knowledge of right is latent in our minds : dialectic,
not the rhetoric of the schools, the means of
is
eliciting it. The method, as Plato soon perceived,

must be long and difficult but he felt a mystical
:
rapture over its certainty, which led him to picture

the immutable " forms " as existing in a world of
their own. This feeling, and the conviction whence
it springs —that knowledge is somehow possible, had
come to the front of his mind when he began to

know Socrates. Two briUiant compositions, the
Cratylus and Symposium, display the strength of the
conviction, and then, the noble fervour of the
feeling. In the latter of these works, the highest
powers of imaginative sympathy and eloquence are
summoned to unveil the sacred \ision of absolute
beauty. The Phaedo turns the logical theory upon
the soul, which is seen to enjoy, when freed from
the body, famihar cognition of the eternal types
of being. Here Orphic dogma lends its aid to the
Socratic search for knowledge, while we behold an
inspiring picture of the philosopher in his hour of
death.
With increasing confidence in himself as the
successor of Socrates, Plato next undertook, in the
Republic, to show the master meeting his own un-
satisfied querieson education and politics. We read
now of a " form " of good to which all thought and
action aspire, and which, contemplated in itself, will
explain not merely why justice is better than in-
justice, but the meaning and aim of everything.
In order that man may be fully understood, we are
to view him " vrrit large " in the organization of an
ideal state. The scheme of description opens out
into many subsidiary topics, including three great
proposals already known to Greece, — the abolition of
private property, the community of women and
children, and the civic equality of the sexes. But
the central subject
is the preparation of the philo-
sopher, through a series of ancillary sciences, for

dialectic ; so that, once possessed of the supreme
truth, he may have light for directing his fellow-men.
As in the Phaedo, the spell of mythical revelation is
brought to enhance the discourse of reason. The
Phaedrus takes up the subject of rhetoric, to lead us
allegorically into the realm of" ideas," and thence to
point out a new rhetoric, worthy of the well-trained
dialectician. We get also a glimpse of the philo-
sopher's duty of investigating the mutual relations
of the " forms " to which his study of particular
things has led him.
A closer interest in logical method, appearing
through his delight in imaginative construction, is
one distinctive mark of this middle stage in Plato's
teaching. As he passes to the next two Dialogues,
the Theaetetus and Parmenides, he puts off the
aesthetic rapture, and considers the ideas as cate-
gories of thought which require co-ordination. The
discussion of knowledge in the former makes it
evident that the Academy was now the meeting-
place of vigorous minds, some of which were eager
to urge or hear refuted the doctrines they had
learnt from other schools of thought ; while the
arguments are conducted with a critical caution
very different from the brilliant and often hasty
zeal of Socrates. The Parmenides corrects an actual
or possible misconception of the theory of ideas in
the domain of logic, showing perhaps how Aristotle,
now a youthful disciple of Plato, found fault with
the theory as he understood it. The forms are
viewed in the light of the necessities of thought :
knowledge is to be attained by a careful practice

which will raise our minds to the vision of all parti-
—
culars in their rightly distinguished and connected
classes.
Plato is here at work on his own great problem :
If what we know is a single permanent law under

which a multitude of things are ranged, what is the
link between the one and the many ? The Sophist
contains some of his ripest thought on this increas-
ingly urgent question his confident advance beyond
:
Socratic teaching is indicated by the literary form,

which hardly disguises the continuous exposition of
a lecture. We observe an attention to physical
science, the association of soul, motion, and existence,
and the comparative study of being and not-being.
The Politicus returns to the topic of state-government,
and carries on the process of acquiring perfect
notions of reality by the classification of things.
"
Perhaps we should see in the absolute " mean
which is posited as the standard of all arts, business,
and conduct, a contribution from Aristotle. The
Philebus, in dealing with pleasure and knowledge,
dwells further on the correct division and classifica-
tion required if our reason, as it surely must, is to
apprehend truth. The method is becommg more
thorough and more complex, and Plato's hope of
bringing it to completion is more remote. But he is
gaining a clearer insight into the problem of unity
and plurality.
The magnificent myth of the Timaeus, related
by a Pythagorean, describes the structure of the
universe, so as to show how the One manifests
xvii
itself as the We have here the latest
Many.
reflections of Plato on space, time, soul, and many
physical matters. In the lengthy treatise of the
Laws, he addresses himself to the final duty of the
philosopher as announced in the Republic a long :
habituation to abstract thought will qualify rather

than disqualify him for the practical regulation of
public and private affairs. Attention is fixed once
more on soul, as the energy of the world and the
vehicle of our sovereign reason.
Thus Plato maintains the fixity of the objects of
knowledge in a great variety of studies, which enlarge
the compass of Socrates' teaching till it embraces
enough material for complete systems of logic and
metaphysics. How far these systems were actually
worked out in the discussions of the Academy we can
only surmise from the Dialogues themselves and
a careful comparison of Aristotle whose writings,
;
however, have come down to us in a much less

perfect state. But it seems probable that, to the
end, Plato was too fertile in thought to rest content
with one authoritative body of doctrine. We may
be able to detect in the Timaeus a tendency to
view numbers as the real principles of things and ;
we may conjecture a late-found interest in the

physical complexion of the world. As a true artist,
with a keen sense of the beauty and stir of life,
Plato had this interest, in a notable degree, through-
out : but in speaking of his enthusiasm for science
we must regard him rather as a great inventor of
xviii
sciences than as what we should now call a scientist.
This is giving him a splendid name, which few men
have earned. Some of his inventions may be un-
reahzable, but it is hard to find one that is certainly
futile. There are flaws in his arguments to state
:
them clearly and fairly is to \vin the privilege of

taking part in a discussion at the Academy.
W. R. M. Lamb.
—
[Note. Each of the IHalof/ves is a self-contained whole.
The order in jrhich they hare been mentioned in this Introduc-
tion is that which agrees best in the main teith modem rieirs
of Plato's mental progress, though the succession in some
instances is uncertain.]
xhE
—
BIBLIOGRAPHY
The following give useful accounts of Socratic and
Platonic thought :—
T. Gomperz : The Greek Thinkers, vols. ii. and iii. Murray,

1901-5.
W. Lutoslawski : The Oriffin and Groioth of Plato's Logic.
Longmans, 1897.
R. L. Nettleship Philosophic Lectures and Remains. 2 vols.
:
Macmillan, 2nd ed., 1901,

D. G. Ritchie: Pluto. T. and T. Clark, 1902.
J. A. Stewart The Myths of Plato. Macmillan, 1905.
:
„ ,, Plato's Doctrine of Ideas. Clarendon Press,

1909.
A. E. Taylor: Plato. Constable, 1911.
A. M. Adam Plato : : Moral and Political Ideals. Camb.
Univ Press, 1913.
H. Jackson Presocratics, Socrates and the Minor Socratics,
:
Plato and the Old Academy (Cambridge Companion to

Greek Studies). Camb. Univ. Press, 1905.
J. Burnet: Greek Philosophy : Thales to Plato. Macmillan,
1914.
F. M. Cornford : Before and after Socrates. Camb. Univ.
Press, 1932. '
The following are important editions :
J. Adam The Republic. 2 vols. Camb. Univ. Press, 1902

:
W. H.Thompson: The Phaedrus. Bell, 1868.

The Gorc/ias. Bell, 1871.
R. D. Archer-Hind The Phaedo. Macmillan, 2nd ed., 189k
:
,, ,, The Timaeus. Macmillan, 1888.

J.Burnet: The Phaedo. Clarendon Press, 1911.
L. Campbell The The'aetetus. Clarendon Press, 1883.
:
„ ,, The Sojthistes aTid Politicus. Clarendon Press,

1867.
E. S. Thompson: The Meno. Macmillan, 1901.
E. B. England The Laws. 2 vols. Manchester Univ.
: Pres.s,
1921.
LACHES
INTRODUCTION TO THE LACHES
This dialogue is so simple and clear that it requires
but little preparatory comment, and indeed is in
itself an excellent introduction to the Socratic
method of probing the primary difficulties of any
moral question. Two eminent generals, Nicias and
Laches, are consulted by two old men, Lysimachus
and Melesias, who, though their own fathers were
Aristeides the Just and the elder Thucydides,^ are at
a loss to know what is the best education for their
sons. The four friends have just witnessed an ex-
hibition of fighting in armour, and the immediate
question is whether the boys ought to learn this
new accomplishment. Socrates, now about fifty years
old, is invited to join in the discussion and after
;
modestly disclaiming, in his usual manner, any

knowledge of the subject, he turns the talk into an
investigation of the nature of courage (190). Hence-
forward the argument is between Nicias, Laches, and
Socrates it soon passes from military to moral
:
courage (192) and Nicias, working from a defini-

;
tion which he has previously heard from Socrates,

suggests that courage is knowledge of what is to be
dreaded (191)- But this excludes animals and chil-
dren, and Socrates points out that what is required
'
The aristocratic opponent of Pericles : see Meno 91 c
(note).
S
is a knowledge of good and evil alike in the past, the
—
present, and the future, in fact, an equivalent of all
the moral virtues together (199)- Thus they find
themselves as far as ever from knowing what courage
may be, and there is nothing for it but to go to school
themselves with the boys.
The supposed time of the conversation is about
420 B.C., and Plato's main purpose in composing the
piece seems to have been to show Socrates' manner
of dealing with distinguished men who are older
than himself, and who soon recognize in him an
intellectual acuteness at least equal to the steadfast
courage that has already won the admiration of
Laches. The characters of the two generals are
lightly but firmly drawn : Nicias is interested in the
military possibilities of the new mode of fighting,
and wishes to have some reasoned discussion upOn
it ; Laches is less intelligent, and bluntly dismisses
it as a fashion evidently rejected by the Lacedae-
monians. His gradual conversion from this state of
impatient prejudice to a more philosophic attitude
is admirably presented. On the artistic side we
may also notice the charming dramatic touches by
which Lysimachus's recognition of Socrates as a friend
of his family is contrived (180-1) ; the humorous
story told by Laches of the sad plight of Stesilaus
in a naval engagement (183-4) ; and Nicias's friendly
sketch of Socrates' artful way of conducting an
argument (187-8). Philosophically, the result of
the discussion appears to be nil but the emphasis
;
throughout is rather on the process of the Socratic

" midwifery " or assistance in bringing correct notions
to birth. In particular we should observe the care
bestowed on evolving the general notion of a quality.
as distinct from its various concrete instances (191-2),
and the insistence on the universaUty of knowledge,
which must somehow embrace all the virtues, and
can suffer no limitation in point of time. The way
is thus prepared for the doctrine of the permanence
and invariability of the true objects of knowledge.

AAXH2
[h nEPI ANAPEIA2* MAIETTIKOS]
TA TOT AIAAOrOT nPOSOHA

AT2IMAX02, MEAH2IA2, NIKIA2, AAXH2, nAIAE2
AT2IMAXOT KAI MEAH2IOr, 2nKPATH2
p. 178 AT. TeOeaade fiev top avhpa iJLa)(6[ji€VOV iv onXois,

w Nt/cta re /cat Adx'rjS' ov S' eVe/ca vfjids e/ceAeu-
aafiev avvdedaaadai lyoi re Kal MeATycrtas' oSe,
rore ovk emofiev, vvv S' epoviiev.
/xev rjyovfieda
yap )(prjvat irpos ye vfids TTapprjaidêcrdaL. eial
yap rives ot rwv roiovrcov KarayeXcoai, Kal edv ris
avroZs avuôvXevarirai, ovk dv emoiev a voovcriv,
B aAAa aroxatôpievoL rov au/jiôvXevopLevov dXXa
Xeyovai -napd rrjv avrwv Soâv vpbds 8e rjpLeis
Tjyrjcranevoi Kal Ikouovs yvcovai Kal yvovras aTrXdis

dv emeiv d SoKeZ vpbiv, ovrco rrapeXdôpLev inl
Tr)V (TVpiôvXrjv nepl (Lv pLeXXop,ev dvaKoivovadai.
ear IV oSv rovro, irepl ov TrdXat roaavra Trpooi-
179 pLidôfxai, roSe. r]pt.iv elalv vlels ovrou, oSe piev
rovSe, Trdmrov eôiv ovopLa SovkvSlStjs, epios 8e
av oSe' TraTTTTwov
'
Be Kal ovros ovopi' eêi rovpLOV
6 .
LACHES
[or on COURAGE: "obstetric"]
CHARACTERS
Lysimachus, Melesias, NiciAs, Laches, Sons of
Lysimachus and Melesias, Socrates
LYS. You have seen the performance of the man

fighting in armour, Nicias and Laches ; but my friend
Melesias and I did not tell you at the time our reason
for requesting you to come and see it with us. How-
ever, we -will tell you now ; for we think we should
speak our minds freely to friends like you. Some
people, of course, pour ridicule on such appeals, and
when consulted for their ad\4ce will not say what
they think, but something different, making the
inquirer's wishes their aim, and speaking against
their own judgement. But you, we consider, not
merely have the necessary discernment but will give
us the benefit of it in telling us just what is in your
minds ;and hence we have enlisted your counsel
on the question which we are about to lay before
you. Now the matter about which I have made all
this long preamble is this : we have two sons here,
my friend that one, called Thucydides after his
grandfather, and I this one ; he also is named in
7
PLATO
TTarpos' ^ A.pi,areihriv yap avTov KaXovfjiev. rj/xlv
ovv rovTOJV SeSo/crat eTTLneXrjdrjvai, a»S" olov re
fidXiara, /cat fjirj TTOirjcraL oirep ol iroXXoi, eTreiSr)
fxeipaKia yeyovev, aiêtvat avrovs o ri ôvXovrai
7TOL€LV,dXXa vvv hrj Kal dpxecrdac avTcbv eVi^txe-
B XelaOat KaO' oaov oloi t' iafiev elSores ovv /cat
Vfiiv vleis ovras rjyrjadjxeda /LteêAi^/ceVat irepl
avrcov, eiTrep ricrlv aAAot?, Trots' dv deparrevdevTes
yevoLVTO dpiaroi' el 8' dpa TroAAa/ct? fxr] irpoa-
eaxrjKare tov vovv tco tolovtw, VTTOiivr]aovres on
ov 'x.P'h '^VTOV dfJieXelv, Kal irapaKaXovvres vp,ds
eiTL TO eTTifxeXeidv nva TToiriaaadai rcov vUcov
KoiVTJ fxed* rjixwv.
"Odev 8e rjfxlv raur' eSoêv, c5 Nt/cia re /cat
AdxTjS, XPV dKovaat, Kav rj dXiyco pâKpoTepa.
avaaLTovpêv yap Srj eyco re /cat MeAryaias' oSe,
C Kal rjp,Lv rd /xetpa/cia Txapaatret. oVep ovv Kal
apxopevos cittov tov Xoyov, Trapp-qataaopieOa rrpos
vp,ds. yap CKarepos Trepl rod eavrov irarpos
rjp,cJov
TToXXd Kal KaXd epya e;êt Xeyeiv rrpos rovs veavi-

OKOvs, /cat ooa iv TroAe/xoi elpydaavro /cat oaa ev
etp'qvr], BtocKovvres rd re tcDv <7vp.p,dxcov Kal rd
rrjaSe rrjs TToXecos' 'qp.erepa 8' avrdjv epya ovS-

erepos eêi Xeyeiv. ravra Srj vnaiaxwopêdd re
rovaSe Kal alrLa)p,eda rovs Trarepag rjp.cov, on
D r]p,ds p-ev etcov rpv(f)av, eTrecSrj pceipdKLa iyevopieda,
rd he rdjv dXXojv TTpdypcara errparrov Kal rolcrhe
rots veavlaKOLS avrd ravra iv8eLKVvp.e6a, Xeyovres
on, el p,ev dpLeXrâovaiv eavrdJv Kal p,7] rreiaovrai
r}puv, d/cAeets' yevrjaovrai, el S' eTnpeXrjaovrai,
8
LACHES
the same way, after my father; we call him Aristeides.
Well, we have resolved to give them our most con-
—
stant care, and not as most fathers do when their
boys begin to be young men ^êt them run loose as
their fancy leads them, but begin forth\\ith taking
every possible care of them. Now, knowing that
you too have sons, we thought that you above all
men must have concerned yourselves with the ques-
tion of the kind of upbringing that would make the
best of them ;and if by any chance you have not
given your attention to the subject, we would re-
mind' you that it ought not to be neglected, and we
in\ite you to join us in arranging some way of taking
care of our sons.
How we formed this resolve, Nicias and Laches,
is worth hearing, even though the story be some-
what long. My friend Melesias and I take our meals
together, and our boys share our table. Now, as I
said at the beginning of my remarks, we are going
to speak quite freely to you. Each of us has many
noble deeds of his own father to relate to these
—
young fellows their numerous achievements both
in war and in peace, when they were managing the
affairs either of the allies or of this city ; but neither
of us has any deeds of his own to tell. We cannot
help feeling ashamed that our boys should observe
this, and we blame our fathers for leaving us to
indulge ourselves when we began to be young men,
while they looked after other folks' affairs and we
;
point the moral of it all to these young people,

telHng them that if they are careless of themselves
and will not take our advice they will win no reputa-
tion, but if they take due pains they may very likely
* fiupdKiov is applied to youths from 15 to 21.

PLATO
ra^ av rajv ovofxarajv d^tot, yevoiVTO d €)(ovaiv.
ovTOL fxev ovv <j)aal Treiaecrdai.' rjnel? 8e 817 tovto
aK07T0VfX€V , TL dv OVTOi fXa96vT€9 T^ eTTtTTySeucTavTes'
OTt apiOTOi yevotVTO. etarrjyijaaTO ovv tls rjfiTu
E Kol TOVTO TO fxddrjfxa, otl kuXov ett] tu) vico fxadelv

€V ^dêadav /cat eirjiveL tovtov ov vvv
ottXois \^
Vfieis idedaaade eTnSetKvvfievov, ko-t^ e/ce'Aeue

dedaaadai. eSoê 87) XPW^'' tturous- re iXdelv
CTTL deav TavSpog /cat u/xa? crvfXTTapaXaêlv a/xa fiev
avvdeaTds, dfia 8e avfxôvXovs re /cat kolvcjvov?,

eav ôvX'qade, Trepl Trjg tcov vlioiv eTri/xeAetas'.
180 tuvt' ioTiv d iôvXofieda vp^Zv dvaKoivcLaaadai.
7J8r) ovv v/xeTepov p,epos avp^ôvXeveiv /cat Trept
TOVTOV Tov fiad-qfiaTO?, etre So/cet )(prjvaL {xavOd-
V€LV eLTC nepl tcov dXXcov, ei ti ex^TC
pL-q, /cat
CTratveaai piddiqp.a vicp dvhpl rf iTTCT-qSevfia, /cat

7T€pl Trjg KOLVcovias Xeyeiv otto tov ti TTOLrjaeTe.
Nl. 'Ey6i> fX€v, c5 AvalpLaxe /cat MeXrjala, in-
aivco re vpucov ttiv Sidvoiav /cat KOLVCovelv CTOi/iO?,
ot/xai 8e /cat Adx^jra TovSe.
B yap ol€i, cv Nt/cta. ci? o ye eXeyev
AA. ÂXfjOrj
6 Avalpiaxos dpTL rrepl tov naTpos tov avTOV re
/cat Toy MeAi^CTtou, Trdvv p.oi. 8ok€l €V elpfjaOai Kal
els eKeivovs /cat els "qp-ds /cat els drravTas oaoi to.
TCOV TToXecov TrpdTTOvaiv , otl avTots axeBov tl raura
avpLâivei, d ovtos Xeyei, /cat Trepl TratSa? /cat nepL
ToAAa, Ttt tSia dAtya>petCTât re /cat d/ieAcDs' Sta-
Tideadai. TavTa p.ev ovv KaXdjs Xeyeis, co AvaC-

C p-ax^' oTi 8' r)pids p-ev aviiôvXovs Trapa/caAeis
10
LACHES
7
come to be worthy of the names they bear. Now

they, for their part, say they will do as we bid ; so
we are now considering what lessons or pursuits will
lead them to the highest attainable excellence.
Someone directed us to this particular accomplish-
ment of fighting in armour, as being an admirable
one for a young man to learn ; and he praised that
man whose performance you were just watching,
and then urged us to go and see him. So we decided
that it would be well to go and see the man our-
selves, and to take you along \srith. us not merely as
companions at the show, but also as counsellors and
co-partners, if you will be so good, in the matter of
looking after our sons. That is the question which
we wanted to discuss with you. And we look to you
now, on your part, to give us your advice, first as
to whether you think this accomplishment should be
learnt or not, and then as to any other such art or
pursuit that you can recommend for a young man ;
and also, how you feel inchned as regards our
partnership,
NIC. For myself, Lysimachus and Melesias, I highly
approve of your purpose, and am ready to lend a
hand ; and I may say the same, I think, for Laches
here,
LACH, Yes, you think truly, Nicias. For that re-
mark which Lysimachus made just now about his
father and the father of Melesias was very apposite,
in my opinion, not only to them but to us and to
all who deal >nth pubhc affairs : it is practically the
rule with them, as he says, to treat their private
concerns, whether connected with children or any-
thing else, in a slighting, careless spirit. You are
quite right in saying that, Lysimachus ; but to invite
11
PLATO
€771 TTjU Tcov veavLaKcxjv TTaiSeiav, TicoKpaTrj oi
Tovhe ov TTapaKoXeZs , QavixdiC,ui, rrpcoTOV /jlcv ovra
hrjiJi,6T7]v, eTTecra ivravda del rds Siarpt^d? noiov-
fxevov, OTTOV ri eari rcbv tolovtcov (Lv crv t,rjr€ls
TTepl.TOVs veovs rj pidOrjfia 'q eTTLT-qSevfia KaXov.

AT. Ooj? Aeyets", c5 Adx^}?; TicoKpdrrjs yap oBe
TtVOS T<J0V TOLOVTCOV eTTLfieXeiaV TTeTTOtTJTai;
AA. Udvv jxev ovv, u) Avaip-ax^-
Ni. TovTo [X€V CToi Koiv iyd) exoifMi eiTretv ov
X^lpov Adx'f]Tog' Kal yap avTco /AOt evayxos
D dvhpa 7Tpov^€vr]a€ tco vlel SSdcrKaXov p-ovaLKrjs,
'Ayaô/cAeou? ixadrjTrjv Aa/i-cova, dvSpcov X^P*'^'"
OTaTov ov p,6vov T7)v p,ovat.KT]v, dXXd /cat TdAAa
oTTocrov ôvXei dîov crvvSiaTptêcv TrjXiKOVTOis
veavLOKOis •
AT. OuTOt, cS JlwKpaTes re koI Ni/cia Kai

AdxrjS, ol rjXlKoi eyd) €TL yLyv(x}aKop.€V tovs
vecoTepovg, CLTe kot oiKiav to, iroXXd SiaTpCpovTes
V7t6 TTJs rjXiKLag- dAA' et ti Kal crv, cS Tral TtOJ^po-
VLOKov, eêt? TcoSe tco aavTov BrfpôTj] dyaOov
E crvp,ôvX€vaaL, XPV 8 et"
(^p^ôvXevetv. St'/cato?
/cat yap iraTpiKos Tvyxavecs cov act

r)p,lv ^t'Ao?
yap iyd) /cat o aos naT-qp CTaipco t€ /cat cpiXco
rjpêv, Kal irpoTepov eKeZvog eTeXevT-qae, npuv ti
€p.ol StevexOrjvat. Trepiîpei he tls fJ-e Kal p^vqixr]

dpTL TtovSe XeyovTCov to. yap )Ltetpd/cta rdSe npos
oAAtÂou? ot/cot dap,d €Tn,p,€p,viqvTai
StaAeyp/Ltep-oi
ScD/cpdrou? /cateTraLVovaiv ov p,evTOL
achoSpa
najTTOTe avTOvg avrjpcoT'qaa, et tov ZjCOcppovLOKOV
181 Ae'yotei'. dAA', cS TratSe?, XeycTe /xot, 6B' iaTi
^cxJKpdTTjS, Trepl ov eKacxTOTe p.ip.vqaoe;
nAi2. I\.dvv p.kv odv, Jt iraTep, outos*
12
LACHES
us to be your advisers for the education of your
boys, and not to invite Socrates here, is to me very
strange, when, to begin with, he is of your district,
and then he is always spending his time wherever
there is any such excellent study or pursuit for young
men as you are seeking.

LYS. How do you mean. Laches ? Has Socrates
here given his attention to anything of this sort ?
LACH. To be sure he has, Lysimachus.
NIC. I too might perhaps be in as good a position
as Laches to inform you about that ; for quite re-
cently he introduced to myself a music-teacher for
—
my son Damon, pupil of Agathocles, who is not
only the most exquisitely skilled of musicians, but
in every other way as profitable a companion as you
could wish for young men of that age.
Lvs. It is not possible, Socrates, Nicias, and Laches,
for men of my years to continue to know our juniors,
because old age makes us spend most of our time
at home ; but if you, son of Sophroniscus, have any
good advice for our friend, who belongs to your own
district, you ought to let him have it. And it is only
right that you should : for you happen to be our
friend through your father ; he and I were constant
companions and friends, and he died without ever
having a single difference with me. And a certain
recollection comes back to me on hearing what has
just been said for these boys, in talking with each
:
other at home, frequently mention Socrates in terms

of high praise but I have never asked them whether
;
they meant the son of Soplironiscus. Now tell me,

my boys, is this the Socrates whose name you have
mentioned so often ?
SON. To be sure, father, it is he.
VOL. IV B 13
PLATO
AT. Ey ye inj ttjv "Hpav, <x> TicoKpares, on
opOoXs Tov TTarepa, apiarov dvSpaJv ovra, Kal
d'AAo*? Kal St) Kal on ot/ceta rd re ad rjfiiv inrdpêL
Kal aol rd rjfierepa.
AA. Kat {Ji'qv, (5 Avaifxax^, jjurj d(f)Ua6 ye rdvSpos'
COS eyo) Kal aXXoOi ye avrov ideaad/Jbrjv ov p,6vov
B TOV TTarepa dXXd Kal rrjv Trarpiha opdovvra- ev

yap rfj aTTo ArjXlov 4>vyfj fxer* efxov avvavexciopeL,
Kayoi ooi Xeycx) on el ol aXXoi rjOeXov roiovroi
CLvai,, opOr] dv Tjjjicov rj ttoXis 'tJv Kal ovk av eireae
Tore roLovTOV Trrajfjua.
AT. ^Q. TiCxjKpares, oSros fxevroi 6 enaivos ean
KaXos, ov av vvv eTratvij utt' dvSpa>v d^lcov TTiareve-
adat Kal els ravra els d ovroi eTraivovaiv. ev
ovv tad on eyui ravra dKovojv -xP-ipa) on evho-
I,
KLfxeis, Kal av Se riyov fie ev roXs y' evvovararov

C aoi etvai. XPW P'^^ ^^^ '^'^'- ^rporepov ye ôirav
avrov Trap rjpids Kal olKeiovs rjyeXadai, coairep rd
hiKaiov vvv S' ovv aTro rrjahe rrjs rjjxepas, eireihr)
dveyvajpiaapLev dXX-^Xovs, firj dXXcos TToiei, dXXd
avviadi re Kal yvwpLê Kal "q/juds Kal rovaSe rovs
veiorepovs, ottcos av Stacrco^Tjre /cat i5/xets" rrjv
TjfJLerepav (f)tXtav. ravra jjiev ovv Kal ai) TTOiiqaeis
Kal rjfieXs ae Kal avOts V7Top,vrjaop.ev rrepl Se (Lv
rjp^dpLeda n
âre; ri hoKeX; rd fiddrjfia roXs
fxeLpaKtots eTTirrjSeLOV etvai t) ov, rd puadeXv ev
ottXols pLaxâdai;
D 2X1. 'AAAd Kal rovroiv TrdpL, c5 Avalfiaxe, eyoiye
TTeipdaofiai avpifiovXevetv dv n
SvvojpLai, Kal av
1 On the coast just north of Attica, where the Athenians
were severely defeated by the Boeotians in 424 b.c.

14
LACHES
i.\"3. On my soul, Socrates, it is good to know that
vuu keep up your father's name, which Mas a most
honourable one, both on general grounds and par-
ticularly because of the intimate relation in which
you and we shall equally feel ourselves to be.
LACH. Indeed, Lysimachus, he is a person you
nmst not lose hold of; for I have observed him
elsewhere too keeping up not merely his father's but
his country's name. He accompanied me in the
retreat from Delium,^ and I assure you that if the
rest had chosen to be like him, our city would be
holding up her head and would not then have had
such a terrible fall.
Lvs. Socrates, this is indeed splendid praise which
you are now receiving from men whose word is of
great weight, and for such conduct as wins their
praise. So let me tell you that I rejoice to hear
this and to know you have such a good reputa-
tion ; and you in return must count me as one of
your warmest well-wishers. You ought indeed, on
your own part, to have visited us before, and treated
us on intimate terms, as you have a right to do now, :
however, that we have discovered each other, from

to-day onwards you must make a point of sharing
our thoughts and getting to know us and our young
people also, that you and they may in your turn
preserve the friendship of our houses. That, how-
ever, you will do yourself, and we will remind you
of it another time but what do you say of the
:
matter on which we began to speak ? What is your

view ? Is the accomplishment of fighting in armour
a suitable one for our boys to learn or not ?
soc. On that matter, Lysimachus, I will do my
best to advise you, so far as I can, and also to do all
PLATO
a TrpoKaXfj Trdvra Troielv. biKaioTarov fievrot fxoi
ooKel CLvai, ifjLe vecorepov ovra rihvhe koI olttci-
pOT€pOV TOVTCOV OLKOVeiV TTpOTGpOV TL XcyOVCTL Kai
fiavOdveiv Trap* avrcbv edv 8' ex(JO ri a'AAo Trapa to.
VTTO TOVTCOV Xeyofieva, tot ^'§7^ SiSaa/cetv koX
TTeidew KOI ere /cat tovtovs. dAA', cS îKia,
TL ov Aeyet TTOTcpos vficov;
AAA' ovBev KcoXvet, co Scu/cpaTes".
Ni. Sokci
E yap Kal ifiol TOVTO to fiddrjfjLa Tot? veois (hêXipuov
€Lvai eTTiaTaadaL TToXXaxfj- Kal yap to fxr) aXXodi
hiaTplêiv iv ots Srj (f)iXovaiv ol veoi tols ScaTpiâs
TTOieladai,oTav axoXrjv dycoaiv, aAA' iv tovtw,

€v €^€1, odev /cat to acijfia PcXtlov lox^lv dvdyKT]
182 -dovSevos yap twv yvpivamcov (f)avX6T€pov ovB^
eXaTTco TTovov eêiT— /cat ajtxa TTpourjKei pidXiuT
eXevdepo) tovto t€ to yvfxvdaiov /cat -q t7r7rt/<;i)-
ov yap dyajvog dOXrjTai icrfiev Kal iv ots rjfilv 6

dychv rrpoKeLTai, /jlovol ovtol yvfxvdôvTat ol iv
TOVTOis TOLS TTepl Tov TToXcfiov opydvoLS yvp,va-
ô/JievoL. eVetra ovrjcrei fiev tl tovto to fiddrj/jia
Kal iv TTJ p-dxi} o-VTjj, otov iv raêi Sery fidxôdac
fxeTo. TToXXcov dXXoyv fxiyictTov fidvTOL avTov
otfieXos, OTav Au^cDcrtP' at rafet? /cat rjSr) tl Serj
fiovov TTpos fiovov -^ SicoKOVTa d[xvvopievcp Tivl im-
B diadat, ^ Kal iv (f)vyr] iTnTtdefxivov dXXov djxvvaodat
avTov OVT* dv VTTO ye ivog et? o tovt iTTiGTafxevos
ovSev dv TrddoL, Icrcog 8' ovBe vtto TrXeiovajv y dXXd
rravTaxJ] dv TavTrj TrXeoveKToi. ert 8e /cat ei?
dXXov KaXov ixadripâTOS iindvixiav vrapa/caAet to
^ i.e. in regular warfare.

16
;
LACHES
the rest that you so kindly ask. It seems to me,
however, most proper that I, being so much younger
and less experienced than you and your friends,
should first hear what they have to say, and learn
of them ; and then, if I have anything else to suggest
as against their remarks, I might try to explain it
and persuade you and them to take my view. Come,
Nicias, let one or other of you speak.
NIC. There is no difficulty about that, Socrates.
For in my opinion this accomplishment is in many
ways a useful thing for young men to possess. It is
good for them, instead of spending their time on the
ordinary things to which young men usually give
their hours of leisure, to spend it on this, jwhich not
only has the necessary effect of improving their
bodily health-4^since it is as good and strenuous as
any physical exercise^but is also a form of exercise
which, w-jth riding, is particularly fitting for a free
citizen ; (jor only the men trained in the use of these
warlike implements can claim to be trained in the
contest whereof we are athletes and in the affairs
wherein we are called upon to contend.^ Further, this
accomphshment will be of some benefit also in actual
battle, when it comes to fighting in line with a
number of other men ; but its greatest advantage
will be felt when the ranks are broken, and you find
you must fight man to man, either in pursuing some-
one who is trying to beat off your attack, or in
retreating yourself and beating off the attack of
another. Whoever possessed this accomplishment
could come to no harm so long as he had but one
to deal with, nor yet, perhaps, if he had several
it would give him an advantage in any situation.
Moreover, it is a thing which impels one to desire

17
PLATO
Totovrov TTctS" yap av fxaSojv iv ottXois fJidxâdai
iTnOvfi-qaeLe rov .e^rjs fxadrn-iaros tov TTepl
/cat
ras razees, koL ravra Xa^cbv Kal (f)i,Xorifir)9eU

C €V avTols €7tI Trdv av to nepl ras arparirjyias opfi-q-
aei€' /cat rjSi] SrjXov on ra rovroiv e;\;d/xera /cat
IxadripLara Trdvra /cat iTnrrjdevpiaTa /cat K«.Xd /cat
TToXXov d^ca dvSpl fiadelv re /cat eTTiT'qSevaai, cov
Kadr]YTqaair^ dv rovro ro p,ddrjij,a. Trpoadrjaofiei'
S' avra> ov apuKpav TrpoaOrJKTjV, otl Trdvra dvhpa
€v TToXepbcp /cat dappaXecorepov /cat avSpeiorepov
dv TTOirjaeiev avrov avrov ovk oXtyo) avrt] r] ctti-
(TTTjfjLT]. /XT^ dTip.dacop.ev 8e etTretv, et /cat rep

ap,LKp6r€pov 8o/cet elvai, on /cat €.va)(r]pov€ar€pov
D ivravOa oS XP"^ "ôv dvSpa ei5o';^7^ôv€crTepoi/ (fialve-

adaL, ov dpLa Kal Setvorepo? rocs i^dpols <f>aveXraL
8ta rr^v evax^poavvrjv e'/xot /xev ovv, co Avm-
.
paxe, oiOTiep Xiyo), So/cet re XPW^'' StSaa/cett' tous

veaviUKOvs ravra /cat St' a So/cet €ipr]Ka' Adxr]TOS
S', et Tt Trapa ravra Aeyet, /cav auTo? rjSeojs dKov-
crat/xt.
A A. 'AAA' eari p,dv, a> Nt/ct'a, ;:âAe776r Xeyetv

TTepl orovovv p.adrjpiarog , ov XPV pavddveiv
cos
Trdvra yap eTriaraadai dyaddv SoKel eivai. Kal
E 8yj Kal ro OTrXirLKOv rovro, el p,ev ion p,d6r]pba,
onep (f)aalv ol SiSdaKovreg, Kal otov Nt/cta? Aeyet,
Xpr] avro p,av6dv€LV el S ean p,ev p,r] piadrjpia,
dAA' iâTrarcbatv ol VTTiaxyovpievoL, rj p,d9rjp,a p,€V
rvyxdvei ov, p,r] pevroi Trdvv aTTOvSatov, ri Kal
BeoL dv avro p.avddveiv ; Xeyco Se ravra Trepl avrov
els rdSe aTTO^Xeâs , on otfiat, eyoj rovro, el rl rjv,
18
LACHES
another noble accomplishment ; for everyone -who
has learnt how to fight in armour will desire to learn
the accomplishment which comes next, the manage-
ment of troops and when he has got that and once
;
taken a pride in his work he will push on to attain

the whole art of generalship. Lit is evident already
that all accomplishments and pursuits in the mihtary
sphere are both honourable and valuable to a man,
either in acquisition or in practice and this par-
;
ticular one may well be an introduction to them.

—
And we can make this addition no slight one to —
its claims, that this science will make any man in-
Jvidually a great deal bolder and braver in war.

or let us disdain to mention, even though some
may think it a rather slight matter, that it will give
him a smarter appearance in the place where a man
should look smartest, and where at the same time
he will appear more terrible to the enemy because
of his smartness. So my opinion is, Lysimachus, as
I say, that we ought to teach this skill to our young
men, and I have told you my reasons for so thinking.
But if Laches has a different view to state, I shall
be as glad as anyone to hear it.
LACH. Well, Nicias, I am loth to say of any sort of
accomphshment that it ought not to be learnt for ;
it seems good to know all things. And besides, if

this skill in arms is an accomphshment, as they say
who teach it, and as Nicias terms it, it ought to be
,
learnt; while if it is not an accomphshment, and
those who promise to give it are deceiving us, or if
it is an accomplishment, but not a very important
one, what can be the good of learning it ? I speak
of it in this way from the following point of view :
1 conceive that if there were anything in it, it would
19
,
PLATO
OVK av XcXqdivai AaKehaifxoviovs , of? ovhev aAAo
fieXet ev tw îco -q rovro t,r]r€lu /cat einrrjheveiv
183 o TL av fxadovres Kal eTTtrrjSevcravres TrXeoveKToXev
ra}V dXXwv Trepl rov TToXefxov. el 8' eKeivovs
eXeX-qdei, dXX' ov tovtovs ye rovs SiSacr/caAoys'
avrov XeXrjdev avro rovro, on eKelvoi ^dXiara rG)v
CjKXr^voiv OTTOvhaXovaiv inl rots roiovrois Kal
on Trap* eKeivois av ns nfxrjdels els ravra Kal
vapa rdjv dXXojv TiXeZar* av ipydôtro xp-qp,ara,
wdTTep ye Kal rpaycphias TroLrjrrjs Trap' r]p,LV rLpur]-
deis. rocydproi os dv oirjraL rpaytphiav KaXcog
B TTOieiv, OVK e^coOev kvkXco Trepl rrjv ÂrriKrjv Kara
rds aAAas" TToXets eTnheiKVVfievos Trepiepxerat, oAA'
evdvs 8evpo <f)epera(, Kal ToicrS' eTnSetKvvcrcv eiKorcos.
rovs 8e iv ottXois ixaxofxevovs eyd) rovrovs 6pd>
rrjV fiev AaKeSaLfxova rjyovfjievovs etvat dârov
lepov Kol ovSe dKpo) ttoSI eTnâivovras , kvkXco
he TTepuovras avrrjv Kal Trdai fidXXov emheiKW-
fievovs, Kal fidXtara rovroig ot Kav avrol ofioXoyq-
aeiav TroXXovg acf)d)V Trporepovs elvai Tipog rd rov
TToXefjLOV. erreira, & Kvoi\xaye, ov rrdvv oXiyois eydi
C rovroiv Trapayeyova ev avro) rd) epyco, Kal opd) oloi
elaiv. €^€(xn 8e Kal avroOev rj/xLV OKeifjaadai.
ojOTrep yap €7nrr]8es ovSels ttcuttot' evSoKifios ye-
yovev ev rd) TroXepbcp dvrjp rd>v rd OTrAiri/ca errt-
rrjhevadvroiv Kairot els ye rdXXa rrdvra €K rovrcjv
.
ol ovopbaarol yiyvovrai, ck rdJv eTnrrjSevcrdvrcov

eKaara' ovroi 8 , d)s eoiKe, irapd rovs dXXovs
ovro) a(f)6Spa els rovro SeSvarvxTJKaaLV. inel
Kal rovrov rov JlrrjaiXecov, ov vfiels p-er* ifiov ev
Tocrovrcp d)(Xcp ededaaaOe €7n8eiKvvp,evov Kal rd
20
LACHES
not have been overlooked by the Lacedaemonians,
whose only concern in life is to seek out and practise
whatever study or pursuit will give them an advan-
tage over others in war. And if they have over-
looked it, at any rate these teachers of it cannot
have overlooked the obvious fact that the Lacedae-
monians are more intent on such matters than any
of the Greeks, and that anybody who won honour
among them for this art would amass great riches
elsewhere, just as a tragic poet does who has won
honour among us. And for this reasoji he who
thinks himself a good writer of tragedy does not
tour round with his show in a circuit of the outlying
Attic towns, but makes a straight line for this place
and exhibits to our people, as one might expect.
But I notice that these fighters in armour regard
Lacedaemon as holy ground where none may tread,
and do not step on it even with the tips of their
toes, but circle round it and prefer to exhibit to any
other people, especially to those who would them-
selves admit that they were inferior to many in the
arts of war. Furthermore, Lysimachus, I have come
across more than a few of these persons in actual
operations, and I can see their quality. Indeed, we
can estimate it offhand : for, as though it were of
set purpose, not one of these experts in arms has
ever yet distinguished himself in war. And yet in
all the other arts, the men who have made a name
are to be found among those who have specially
pursued one or other of them ; while these persons,
apparently, stand out from the rest in this particu-
larly hapless fate of their profession. Why, this
man Stesilaus, whom you watched with me in that
great crowd as he gave his performance and spoke in
VOL. IV B 2 21
PLATO
D fxeydXa irepX avrov Xiyovra a eXeyev, cTcpojdi iyo)
KoXXiov ideacrdfxriv [iv rrj dX-qOeiaY cog dX-qdaJs
iTrLdeiKvvjJievov ov)( eKovra. TrpocrâXovcrrjg yap
rrjs vecos e^' ^ eVeâreue Trpog oA/caSa nvd, if^dxero
ex<JOV SopvSpeTravov, hiaêpov S'q ottXov are koI
avrog twv dXXcov Siacfiepcov. rd fxev ovv dXXa
ovK d^ta Xeyeiv irepl rdvSpos, to Se a6(j)iapia to
Tov SpeTrdvov tov Trpds Tjj Xoyxj) olov aTre^rj.
E fia)(OpL€Pov yap avTOV eiêapêrd ttov iv Tolg Trjs
veojs oKCveai. koI dvTeXdêTo- cIXkcv ovv 6 UTrjal-
Xccos ôvXonevos aTToXvaai, Kal ovx oios" r' rjv
rj 8e vav? ttjv vavv Traprjei. reo)? pL€V ovv Tvap-
edei €v TTJ vql avTexofievog tov Soparos' errel Se
h-q TTaprjpieLêTO rj vavs ttjv vavv Kal ineaTra avTov
TOV SopaTOS ixdpi€vov, e(^tei to Sopv Sid Trjg ;\;et/)o?,
184 ôjg aKpov tov OTvpaKos dvTeXdêTO. rjv Se
yeXcos Kal KpoTog vrrd tcov €k Trjg oXKdSog em re
TO) o^Ty/xart avTOV, Kal eTretSi^ âXovrog Tivdg
XlOco rrapd Tovg rrohag avTOV irrl to KaTdaTpcofia
d(f>UTaL TOV SopaTog, tot rjSr] Kal ol ck Trjg Tpirj-
povg ovKCTL OLOL T rjaov TOV yiXoiTa KaTexîv,
opdJvTeg alojpovixevov e/c Trjg oA/caSo? to Sopv-
Sperravov eKeZvo. tacog fxev ovv gItj dv tl TavTa,
warrep Ni/cta? Xeyef olg S' ovv iyoj ivTeTvx'qKa,
TOLavT* arra ecrriv. o ovv Kal i^ dpx^g ecTTOv, otl
B €LT€ OVTO) ajXLKpdg ch(f)eXeiag ex^L pidd-qfxa 6v, etre p.r]
ov <f)aal Kal TrpoaTTOiovvTai avTo elvai /judOrj/jia, ovk
d^LOV imx^Lpetv fxavdaveiv Kal yap ovv [xol hoKel, et
pi,kv SetAo? Tig tov o'ioiTO avTO^ erriaTaadai, dpaav-
Tepog dv Si' avTO yevo/jievog emâveaTepog ydvoiTO

'
iv TTJ dXrjdeig. seel. Schanz.
* atV6 Burnet: aiirbv, airbv deif mss.
22
LACHES
those high terms of himself before us, I have watched
elsewhere giving a finer entertainment in the form
of a very real display that he made against his will.
The ship on which he was serving struck a transport
vessel, and he was using in the fight a combination
—
of a scythe and a spear a remarkable weapon that
suited so remarkable a man. Well, the story of this
fellow's doings is hardly of enough interest in the
main, but you must hear the upshot of his device of
a scythe fixed to a spear. As he was fighting, it
stuck somehow in the other ship's rigging, and held
fast ; so Stesilaus pulled at it in the hope of getting
it free, but he could not, and the ships were passing
by each other. For the first moments he ran along
in his ship holding on to his spear; but as the other
ship sheered off from his and drew him after, still
holding the spear, he let it slip through his hand
until he gripped the butt-end of the shaft. From
the crew of the transport there came laughter and
clapping at his posture, and when someone aimed
a stone at him which hit the deck near his feet, and
he let go the spear, the troops on the warship in
their turn could no longer restrain their laughter, as
they saw the notable scythe-spear danghng from the
transport. Now, there may perhaps be something
in th^ art of theirs, as Nicias argues, but at any rate
that is my impression of it, in the cases I have met
with. Hence, as I said at the beginning, whether it
be an accomplishment, and one of but Uttle use, or
not an accomplishment, but only supposed and pre-
tended to be such, it is not worth the trouble of
learning it. For indeed I hold that if a man who
was a coward beheved that he possessed it, his only
gain would be in rashness, which would make his
23
— ;
PLATO
olos T^P' el Se dvBpetos, <j>vXaTr6iievos av vtto
raJv dv6pa>Trcov, el /cat a/xiKpov iâyidpToi, [xeydXas
av SiaôAds" taxetv i7TL(f>9ovog yap r) TrpoaTroLrjais
C TTJ? TOiaVTTjg €TTL(yT7]p,rjS , COOT €L /JLT] Tl BaVfiaGTOV
oaov Siacfiepet rfj dperfj rcov dXXcov, ovk ea^' ottcos
dv TLS (f)vyo(, TO KarayeXaaros yeveadai, <j)daKCov
exeiv TarjTTjV rriv eTnarrjpiriv . roiavrr) ris e/xotye
SoK€i, c5 Avaifiaxe, rj Trepl tovto to fiddrjfxa elvai
aTTOvS-q- ^'
ovep aoi i$ '^PXV^ eXeyov, Kai
XPV
"EiOjKpdTTj TOvSe fir] dcjaivai, dXXd heladat ctv/jLôv-
Xeveiv OTTTj 8o/cet avTO) irepl tov TrpoKeLfxivov.
AT. 'AAAa Seofxai eycoye, c5 TicoKpaTes' Kal
yap axTTTep [irrl]^ tov SLaKpivovvTos Sokcl /xot
D Sett' rjfMLV rj ôvXrj. el fiev yap avveêpiadrjv rcoSe,
rJTTOv dv tov tolovtov eSei* vvv Se Trjv ivavTiav
yap, COS dpas, h.dx'rjS NtKt'a eOeTO ev Sr) exei —
d/couaat /cat aov, iroTepo) Tolv dvSpoLV avpi,ijJ7](f>os el.
2n. Tt Sat, c5 AvcTifiaxe ; drroTep dv ol TrXeiovs

eTTaivwaiv rjfidiv, TovToig /xe'AAei? ;\;p7^CTâi;
AT. Tt yap dv TLS Kal ttoloZ, c5 HojKpaTes

2fl. *H /cat av, c3 MeAi7crta, ovtojs dv ttoloZs;
E Kov el TLS irepl dycovias tov vlios aoi ôvXrj elrj
Tt XP^ doKeiv, dpa toIs irXeioaiv dv rj/jicov Treidoio,
ri e/cetVo) Tvyxdvoi^ vtto TraLSoTpt^r] dyado)

ocrrt?
TTf-TTaidev/JLevos Kal rjOKrjKcos;
MEA. 'E/c6tVa> cIkos ye, c5 TiWKpaTes.
2n. AvTcp dp* dv fxdXXov rreidoio 7} TeTTapatv
oZaiv rjfxlv;
^ irrl seel.Ast ^tl Heindorf.

:
* ru7X'i''<" Bekker jvyx'^^^'' ^'s^*

:
24
LACHES
true nature the more conspicuous ; while if he were
brave, people would be on the look-out for even the
slightest mistake on his part, and he would incur
much grievous slander ; for the pretension to such
skill arouses jealousy, so that unless a man be pro-
digiously superior to the rest in valour he cannot by
any means escape being made a laughing-stock
through professing to be so skilled. Such is my
opinion, Lysimachus, of the interest taken in this
accomphshment ; but do as I told you at the be-
ginning ; you are not to let our friend Socrates go,
but must request him to advise us according to his
judgement on the matter in hand.
LYS. Well, I ask it of you, Socrates : for indeed
our members of council, as it were, seem to me to
need someone who will decide between them. Had
these two agreed, we should not have required this
help so much —
but as it is for Laches, you see, has
;
—
voted on the opposite side to Nicias it is as well
that we should hear your view and see on which side
you cast your vote.
soc. W hat, Lysimachus ? Are you going to join
the side which gets the approval of the majority of
us ?
LYS. Why, what can one do, Socrates ?
soc. And you would do the same ?

too, Melesias,
Suppose you had a consultation as to what your
son's exercise should be for a coming contest, would
you be guided by the majority of us, or by the one
who happened to have trained and exercised under
a good master ?
MEL. By the latter, naturally, Socrates.
soc. Would you be guided by him alone rather
than the four of us ?
25
;
PLATO
MEA. "laws.
2n. yap, otfiai, Set Kptveadau aAA' ov
^FiTTLaTrjfjbr)
TrXrjdeL ro /xeXXov /caAcD? Kptdrjaeadai.

MEA. Ylws yap ov;
2n. OvKovv /cat vvv XPV t^P^jtov avro tovto ct/cc-
185 ifjaadai, et earn rt? r}p,cbv rexviKos Trepl ov ôv-
XevojJieda, t] ov- /cat et /Ltei/ ecrriv, e/cetVo) Treideadai
evl ovTi, Tovs S aAAous" et Se fM-q, dXXov riva
eat''
tj-qrclv. ^ TTcpl apbiKpov oteade vvvl KLvSvveveiv
KaL (TV /cat Avatp,a)(os, aAA' ov Trepi rovrov rod
KT'qixaTos, o Tcov vfxerepcov /xeyicTTov ov Tvyâvei;
vcecov yap ttov t] ^(^piqaTcbv •^ rdvavria yevofxevoiv
Kal Trds 6 oiKog 6 rov jrarpos ovtojs ot/cTâerai,
OTTotot dv TLves ol TratSe? yevcovrai.
MEA. ÂXrjd-q Ae'yets".
2n. IIoAAt^v dpa Set irpopi'qdLav avTOV execv.
MEA. Haiû ye.
B 2n. IlcDs" ovu, o iyd) dpn eXeyov, ea/coTrou/xev dv,
et iôvXofJieda aKeifjaaOai ris rjixcov nepl dycovlav
re)(i'LKd>TaTos ; dp ovx o fj,a6d)v /cat emrr^Sevaag,
w /cat StSctCT/caAoi dyaôt yeyovores "âav avrov
rovrov;
MEA. "E/Ltotye So/cet.
2n. Oj)/cow eVt Trporepov, rivos ovros rovrov [oSy
l,'t]rovix€V rovs StSacr/caAous";
MEA. Ylcos Xeyeis
2n. '^nSe tcro;? iJidXXov KardSrjXov earai. ov /xot
So/cet i^ '^PXV^ rjfiiv dj/jioXoyfjadai, ri nor eon
TTepl ov ôvXevofieda [/cat aKerrrofxeda],^ oarcs rj/Jicbv
' oS seel. Jacobs.

' Kal (TKewTOfieda seel. Ast.
26
;
LACHES
MEL. Very likely.
soc. Yes, for a question must be decided by know-
ledge, and not by numbers, if it is to have a right
decision.
MEL. To be sure.
soc. Then in this case also we must first consider,
in particular, whether anyone among us has expert
skill the subject of our consultation, or not
in
and here is one who has, we must be guided by
if
him, though he be but one, and pass over the rest
whileif there is not, we must look for somebody else.
Or do you think it a shght matter that you and Lysi-
machus have now at stake, and not that which is
really yovu- greatest possession ? For I take it that
according as the sons turn out well or the opposite
will the whole life of their father's house be aifected,
depending for better or worse on their character.
MEL. Truly spoken.
soc. So it demands much forethought from us.
MEL. Certainly.
soc. How then —to take the case I suggested just
now — should wework if we wanted to con-
set to
sider which of us was the most expert in regard to
a contest ? Should we not pick him who had learnt
and practised, and had also had good teachers of
this particular skill ?
MEL. I think so.

soc. And even before that, we should ask what
was this skill of which we are looking for the teachers ?
MEL.How do you mean ?
Perhaps it will be more easily grasped in this
soc.
form. I think we have not started with an agree-
ment between us as to what the thing is about
which we are consulting, in this question of who
27
;
PLATO
r€)(yiKos Koi tovtov evcKa SiSacrKaiXovs eKT-qaaro,
C Kal OCTTig ^Tj.
NI. Ov yap, Cxi HcoKpares, Trepl rov iv ottXols fJid-
XâOaL GKOTTovfiev, eire XPV '^^'^^ tovs veaviaKovs

fiav6dv€LV etre fiij;
20.. Hdvv ovv, CO NiACia.
fxkv aAA' orav rrepl
<f>apixdKov TtsTov TTpos oi^daXfxous aKOTTTJTat, eire
Xpy] avTO V7TaX€L<ê<jdai e'lre fx-q, irorepov o'Ui rore
etvai TTjv ôvXrjv irepi rod <f>apixdKOV rj Trepl tcou
6(f>daXpLOJV ;
Ni. YlepL Tcbv 6(f>daXijL6jv.
J) 2n. OvKovv /cat orav ltttto) x'^Xtvov aKOTrrJTai ns
€t TTpoaroLorreov rjKai ottotc, t6t€ ttov Trepl rov
fxrj,
iTTTTOV fiovXeverai dAA' ov Trepl rov pâAti'ou;

Nl. AXrjd-q.
2n. OvKovv evi X6y(x), orav rts ri evcKd rov
aKoirfj, 7T€pl €K€LVov 7) rvyxdv€L ovcra ov
ôvXtj
eveKa eaKoiret, dXX ov Trepl rov o eVe/ca- aAAoy
NI. *AvdyKr].
2n. Act dpa Kal rov avfxôvXov aKOTreZv, dpa
rexvLKos eanv els eKeivov depaTreiav, ov eVe/ca
aKOTTOVfiev o^ aKOTrovfxev.
NI. Yidvv ye.
2n. OvKovv vvv (jjafxev Trepl fxadTJ/Jiaros GKorrelv
E rrjs ^vx'fjs eveKa rrj? rojv veaviaKOJV
NI. Nat.
2fl. Et Tt? dpa Tjfjicbv rexviKog Trepl ifjvxrj? depa-
Treiav Kal otos re KaXoJS rovro depanevaaL, Kal

oroj hihdaKaXoi dyadol yeyovaai, rovro OKeTrreov.
AA. Ti he, at HiCjKpares; ovttco eco/aa/ca? dvev
^ aKOTTodfiev 8 Cron : aKOTroO/ievoi MSS.
28
LACHES
among us is an expert and to this end has resorted
to teachers, and who not.
NIC. Why, not fighting in armour
Socrates, is it
that we are considering, and whether
it is a thing
to be learnt by young men or not ?
soc. Of course, Nicias ; but when someone con-
siders whether a medicine is to be used as an eye-
salve or not, do you think that this consultation is
about the medicine or about the eyes ?
xic. About the eyes.
soc. And when one considers whether a horse is
to be bridled or not, and at what time, I presume
one takes counsel about the horse, and not about the
bridle ?
NIC. True.
soc. And in a word, when one considers a thing
for any purpose, the consulting is in fact about the
end one had in view to start with, and not about
the means to be used for such end.
NIC. Necessarily.
soc. So we must consider ovu: adviser too, and ask
ourselves whether he is a skilled expert in the treat-
ment required for the end which is the subject of
our consideration.
NIC. Certainly.
soc. And we say that our present subject is an
accomplishment studied for the sake of young men's
souls f
NIC. Yes.
soc. So what we have to consider is whether one
of us skilled in treatment of the soul, and is able
is
to treat it rightly, and which of us has had good
teachers.
LACH. But I say, Socrates, have you never noticed
29
;
PLATO
StSacTKoiXcov rexiîKOJTepovs yeyovoTas els evia r^
{xera hihauKoXoyv
2n. "Eycuye, c5 Adxy]S' ots ye av ovk av ideXois
Tnarevaai, el (fiaXev dyadol elvai SrjfxiovpyoL, el fxtj
ri aoL rrjs avTcov rexvrjs epyov exoiev einhelâL ev
186 elpyaajxevov , /cat ev /cat TrXeici}.
AA. TovTO fiev dXrjdrj Xeyeis.
2n. Kat T^/Lia? apa Set, c5 Adx'r)S re /cat Ni/ct'a,
eTTeiSrj Avcrtpiaxos /cat MeAr^crtas' et? crvp.ôvXr]v
TTapeKoXeadrrjv rjfids irepl tolv vleoiv, 7rpodvp,ov-
fievoL avTOLV on dpiarag yeviadai rds i/jv^ds, el
fiev (f>aiiev exîv, CTrtSetât avrots /cat StSaa/caAous"
oirtres" TjfxcJov yeyovaaiv , <ot>^ aurot Trpcorov^ dyadol
ovres /cat TroXXdJv vecov redeparrevKOTes tpv^ds
B eVetra /cat ly/xa? StSaâvre? (f>aivovrai.' rj et ris
rjfjicov avTcbv eavro) StBdoKaXov pbev ov <f>r]oi yeyo-
vevai, dXX ovv epya avros avrov e^Gi elTreZv /cat

CTTtSetât, TtVes" *Adrjvaio}v 7] rcov êvcov, tj SovXol
7) eXevdepoi, St eKelvov ofJioXoyovpLevcos dyadol
yeyovaoLV ei he fxr^Sev rjpiZv tovtcov virapxei,
aXXovs KeXeveiv ^rjretv /cat /x'q ev eralpcov dvSpcuv
vleai Kivhvveveiv Si,a(f>9€tpovTas ttjv ixeyioTiqv alriav
€X€tv VTTO Tcov olKeLordrcov iyd) fjLev ovv, cS
.
AvalfMaxe re /cat MeAy^cria, npaJTOs vepl efiavTOV

C Xeyoi OTL hihdaKoXos [moi ov yeyove rovrov irepL.
Kairoi eTTtû/xcD ye rov Trpdyfiaros e/c veov dp^d/xe-
vos. dXXd rols p-ev ao(f)LaraZg ovk exco reXelv
fiiadovs, OLTTep pLOVOi eirriyyeXXovro pie oToi t'
ctjâi TTOiTJaai KaXov re Kdyadov avros S av
^ ot add. Bekker.
' irpQjTov Stephanus : npuiToi mss,
50
—
LACHES
how some people have become more skilled in certain
things without teachers than others with them ?
soc. Yes, I have, Laches ; people, that is, whom
you would not care to trust on their mere statement
that they were good practitioners, unless they could
put forward some example of their personal skill
—
some work well carried out not in one only, but
several cases.
LACK. That is truly spoken.
soc.We also, therefore. Laches and Nicias — since
Lysimachus and Melesias have invited us to a con-
sultation on their sons, whose souls they are anxious
to have as good as possible — should bring to their
notice what teachers we have had, if we say that we
have any to mention, who being themselves good to
begin with, and ha\ing treated the souls of many
young people, taught us also in due course and are
kno^vn to have done so. Or if any of ourselves says
he has had no teacher, but has however some works
of his own to speak of, and can point out to us what
Athenians or strangers, either slaves or freemen, are
acknowledged to owe their goodness to him, let him
do so. But if there is nothing of the sort to be found
amongst us, let us bid them look elsewhere ; for we
cannot run a risk with our good friends' children
where we may ruin them, and so bring upon us the
most grievous of accusations from our nearest and
dearest. Now I, Lysimachus and Melesias, am the
first to avow that I have had no teacher in this
respect ; and yet I have longed for such lessons
from my youth up. But I have not the means to
pay fees to the sophists, who were the only persons
that professed to be able to make me a complete
gentleman ; and to this moment I remain powerless
31
PLATO
cvpetv rrjv re-xyr]v a^vvaTw en vvvi. el 8e Ni/ctas
r)Adxr]S evprjKev rj fxefxddrjKev, ovk av Oav/JLoicraifii'
Kal yap )(prip,aa(.v ifiov hwaranepoi, oiare jjiadelv
Trap* dXXojv, Kal dfxa Trpeo^viepoi, coare 7]Sr]
evprjKevai. Sokovgl Sij /xoi Svvarol elvai TraiSevaai

D dvdpoiTTOV ov yap dv irore dSecDs' a.7Tecf)aivovTO
TTepl eTTiTTySeu/xctTCDV veo) xprôTiiov re Kal TTOvrjpaJv,

ei fjuT] avTOL^ eiricrrevov iKovois etSeVat. ra fxev
ovv dXXa eyojye tovtols TTiarevco' on Be Sta-
<f)epeadov aXXrjXoLV, edavfiaaa. rovro ovv aov iyu)
dvnheoiiai, & Kvalixaye, Kaddrrep dpri Adx'f}9 p-r)
d(f)L€a6aiae ifiov Ste/ceAeuero aAAa epwrav, /cai

eyco vvv TrapaKeXevopâi aoi p.rj dîeadai Ad^riros
p^TjSe Nlklov, aAA' epcorav Xeyovra, on 6 p,ev Soj-
E Kpdrrjs ov <f)rjaLV eTrateiv Trepl rov TrpdyjxaTOS, ovo
iKavos elvai StaKplvai OTTorepos vp^cov dXYjdrj Xeyei'
ovre yap evperrjs ovre p-aO-qTrjs ovSevog Ttepi raJv
TOLOvriov yeyovevaf av S', a) Adx^JS koI Nt/cta,

etireTov rjp,lv CKdrepo?, rivL 8r] SeLvordro) avy-
yeyovarov Trepl rrjs riov vecnv Tpo(f)rjg, Kal rrorepa
pLaOovre Trapd tov eTriaraadov rj avro) eêvpovre,
Kal el p,€v piaOovre, ns 6 StSctcr/caAos" eKareptp Kal
187 TLves dXXoi, opLorexyoL avrots, tv , dv p,7] vpblv
axoXrj rj vtto rwv ttjs rroXecDS npaypiaTCov, en

eKeivovs LCop,ev Kal TreidojpLev rj hcjpois rj ;â/Diati' rj
dpL(j)6repa eTTLpLeXrjdijvat Kal rdjv rjptêTepojv Kai tcov

vjieTepojv TTaiSojv, ottcos p-rj KaraiaxiivojaL rovs
avTcov TTpoyovovs (f)avXoL yevopêvoi' el 8 avrol
evperaX yeyovore tov tolovtov, Sore Trapdheiyjia,
32
LACHES
to discover the art myself. But I should not be
surprised if Nicias or Laches has discovered or learnt
it: for they have more means at their command to
enable them to learn from others, and they are also
older, and have had time to discover it. Indeed, I
regard them as able to educate a man : for they
would never declare their minds so freely on pursuits
that are beneficial or harmful to a youth unless they
felt confident that they had the requisite knowledge.
And I have entire confidence in them myself, except
that I wondered at their differing from each other.
I therefore make this counter-request of you, Lysi-
machus just as Laches urged you a moment ago
:
not to release me but to ask me questions, so I now

call upon you not to release Laches or Nicias, but
to question them in these terms " Socrates says that
:
he has no understanding of the matter, and that he

is not competent to decide which of your statements
is true ; that he has never been either a discoverer
or a learner of anything of the sort. But you,
Laches and Nicias, are each to tell us who is the
cleverest person you have heard on the upbringing
of youth ; whether you have knowledge of it by
learning from someone or by discovering it your-
selves ; and if you learnt it, who were your teachers
respectively, and what other colleagues they had :
in order that, if you are not at leisure through the
demands of pubUc business, we may go to them and
induce them either vrith gifts or good turns or with
both to undertake the care of our and your children
together, and so prevent them from turning out
knaves and disgracing their ancestors. But if you
have made the grand discovery yourselves, give us
an instance to show what other persons you have
as
PLATO
TLi'cov tJStj dXXcov iTTifjieXrjdevTes €K <f>avXoiv KaXovs
Tc KayaOovs eTTOi-qaaT^ el yap vvv TrpwTOv ap-
.
B iâde TTaiSeveLv, aKonetv XPV H'V ^^'^ ^^ "^^ Kapt

vîlv 6 KLvSvvos Kii'BvvevTjTai,, dAA' iv rots vleai t€
Kai ev TO IS" TcDv <f)iXaiv Traial, koL a.rexvix)S to Aeyo-
fievov Kara rrjv Trapoi/jLtav vfxlv ov/jLâLvrj iv TTido)
rj Kepajxeia yiyvofievrj. Xeyere ovv, rl tovtcov t]
<f)aT€ iifxlv V7Tdpx€Lv TC Kal TTpoarjKeiv, rj ov (jâre.
ravT* , Avaipâx^, Trap* avrajv Trvvddvov re Kal
a>
jjLTj Tovs dvSpas.
piediei
C AT. KaXcos p-ev epoLye So/cei, c3 dvSpes, Sco-
KpaTrj? Xeyew el he ôvXopivots vp-Zv earl Trepl
Tcov TOLovTcov epojTaadal re Kal StSdfai Xoyov,
avTovs Sr] XP^ yiyvoiCKeiv, c5 KiKia re Kal Adxr]9.
epbol p.ev yap Kal MeAT^cria ToiSe StÂov on rjSopevois
av etr), el Trdvra, a Soj/cparT^S" epiora, edeXon'e
Xoycp hieîivaf Kal yap e^ dpx'^S evrevdev rjpx6p,7]u
Xeycov, OTL elg avpiôvXrjv Sia ravra vp,ds rrapaKaXe-
aaipiev, on p-epLeXr^Kevai vp^Zv rjyovp.eda, cos elKos,
Trepl Twv TOLOVTCOV, Kal aAAct)? Kal eTreihrj ol iraZ-
D heg vp,Zv oXlyov ojcnrep ol rip.eTepoi r^XiKiav exovai
TTacheveadai. el ovv vp.Zv p,r] n
hiaêpei, eirraTe
Kal KOivjj p,eTa ôjKpdTovs aKeijjaade, hihovTes re
Kal hexopievoL Xoyov Trap dXXr]Xoiv ev yap Kal
rovTO Xeyei o8e, on Trepl rov pLeyiarov vvv fiov-
Xev6p.e6a rcov rjp.eT€pcov. dAA' opdre el hoKeZ
XP'fjvai ovTco TTOieZv.
Nl, 'Q Avaip,axe, hoKeZs pot
chg dXrjdcos HcoKpaTTj
E TTarpodev yLyvcooKeiv p,6vov, avro) S' ov avyyeyo-
^ Lit. " on the Carian slave."

* i.e. on a large instead of a small piece of work, in
34
—
LACHES
succeeded in changing, by your care of them, from
knaves to honest gentlemen. For if you are now
going to make your first attempt at educating, you
must beware lest you try your experiment, not on
a corpus vile,^ but on your sons and the children of
your friends, and you prove to be a mere case, as
the proverbial saying has it, of starting pottery on
a wine-jar.2 So tell us what you claim, or do not
claim, as your resources and acquirements in this
kind." There, Lysimachus, demand that from these
good persons, and do not let them off.
LYS. To my mind, good sirs, these remarks of
Socrates are excellent :but it is for you, Nicias and
Laches, to decide for yourselves whether it suits
you to be questioned and offer some explanation on
such points. For I and Melesias here would cer-
tainly be delighted if you would consent to expound
in detail all that Socrates puts to you in his ques-
tions : as I began by saying at the outset, we invited
you to consult with us just because we thought, very
naturallv, that you had given serious consideration
to this "kind of thing, especially as your boys, like
ours, are almost of an age to be educated. Accord-
ingly, if it is all the same to you, discuss it now by
joint inquiry with Socrates, exchanging views with
him in turn : for it is a particularly good remark of
his that we are consulting now about the greatest
of allour concerns. Come, see if you consider that
this is the proper course to take.
NIC. Lysimachus, it looks to me, in very truth, as
though you only knew Socrates at second hand
—
through his father and had not conversed with him
-which a beginner's mistake would be less costly. Cf. Gorg.
514 E.
35
,
PLATO
V€vaL aAA' -^ TraiSt ovri, et ttov iv rols Srjfxoraig
jxera rov Trarpos olkoXovOcov iirXriaiacre aoi 7} ev
Upip rj iv aXXo) tco avWoyco rcov Srj/jiOTcjv iTreiSr)
8e TTpea^vrepos yeyovev, ovk lvTervxf]Ka)s rw
avSpl SrjXos €L.
AY. Tt pLoXiara, o) Nt/cta;
NI. Ov p.01 8oK€LS elSevai, on, os a.v iyyvrara
ôjKpdrovs rj [Adyo) coanep yeVet]^ /cat TrXrjaidl^r]
StaXeyopbevos, dvdyKrj avrcp, edv dpa /cat Trepc
dXXov rov TTporepov dp^rfrai hiaXeyeadai, pnq

TTaveadat vtto tovtov TrepLayo/jievov tco Xoyco, Trptv
dv ipuTTearj et? to StSdvat Trepl avrov Xoyov, ovriva
188 TpoTTov vvv re /cat oVrtva rov TrapeXrjXvdora îov
^fj
ê^LCOKCv eTretSav 8' ipbTreaj), on ov irporepov
avrov d(f)Tâ€i Ha>Kpdr7]S, Trplv dv âaavtaj] ravra
ev re /cat KaXdJs aTtavra. iyd) Se avv-qO-qg re
raJSe /cat otS' orL dvdyKrj vtto rovrov Traaxecv
elfiL
ravra, /cat en ye avros on 7reicro/xat ravra ev

otSa- xîpct} ydp, o) Avalpuaxe, rw dvSpl rrXrâia^cov
/cat ovSev ot/xat /ca/cdv etvat to VTTopLip.vrjaKea9ai
B o Tt p,rj KaXdJg 'q rreTTOir]Kap,ev r] rroiovp,ev, dXX eis
rov eneira îov 7Tpop,r)decyrepov dvdyKr] elvat rov
ravra pbrj <êvyovra, dXX ideXovra Kara ro rov
HoXoiVOS Kal dîovvra p,avddvet,v ecoairep dv t,fj,
/cat /Lti7 olopievov avrcp ro yrjpas vovv eôv Trpoa-
leVat. eôt /xet- ovv ovhev drjdeg ouS av arjoes
VTTO TiCOKpdrovs âaavitêcrdaL, dXXd Kal TraAat
cr)(eh6v n '^viardp.rjv , on ov Trept rdJv pueipaKicov
rifiLV 6 Xoyos eaoiro llcoKpdrovs Trapovros, aAAa
* \&y(p ucirep yivei seel. Cron.
S6
LACHES
personally except in his childhood, when you may
have chanced to meet him among the people of his
district, accompanying his father at the temple or
at some local gathering. But you have evidently
not yet had to do with him since he has reached
maturer years.
Lvs. How are you so sure of that, Nicias ?
NIC. You me as not being aware that, who-
strike
ever comes into close contact ^\^th Socrates and has
any talk with him face to face, is bound to be drawn
round and round by him in the course of the argu-
—
ment though it may have started at first on a quite
different theme —
and cannot stop until he is led into
giving an account of himself, of the manner in which
he now spends his days, and of the kind of life he has
lived hitherto ; and when once he has been led into
that, Socrates >vill never let him go until he has
thoroughly and properly put all his ways to the test.
Now I am accustomed to him, and so I know that
one is bound to be thus treated by him, and further,
that I myself shall certainly get the same treatment
also. For I dehght, Lysimachus, in conversing with
the man, and see no harm in our being reminded of
any past or present misdoing nay, one must needs
:
take more careful thought for the rest of one's life,

if one does not fly from his words but is mlUng, as
Solon said,^ and zealous to learn as long as one hves,
•and does not expect to get good sense by the mere
arrival of old age. So to me there is nothing unusual,
or unpleasant either, in being tried and tested by
Socrates ;in fact, I knew pretty well all the time
that our argument would not be about the boys if
^ Fr. 10 yrjpdaKw 5* aUi iroWa diSacTKopLfvoi, " I grow old

learning ever more and more " ; see below, 189 a.
37
PLATO
C Trept -qficbv avTcijv.onep ovv Xlyoi, ro fxkv ifiou
ovSev KcoXvei Soj/cparei ovvhiarpiêiv ottcd? ovros
jSoJAeraf Ad^rjra he Tovhe opa ottcos €)(€l irepl rov
roLovrov.
AA. 'AttAow to y' epLov, c5 NiKia, rrepl Xoycov
eoTLV el he ôvXei, ov)( drrXovu, dXXd hnrXovv.
/cat yap dv Soât/zt rep (f)i.X6Xoyos elvai /cat av
piLcroXoyos. orav p-ev yap d/couco dvhpos Trepl
aperrjs hiaXeyopievov 7} Trepi tlvos ao(j>ias d)s dXrjdios
ovros avhpos dîov rcov Xoycov Sv Xeyei, -xâipca
/cat
D VTTepcjjvws, Oecofievos dfxa rov re Xeyovra /cat to.
Xey6p,eva on TrpeTVOvra aAATÂot? /cat dppiorrovrd
earf /cat Kopuhfj p,OL So/cet pLOvaiKos 6 tolovtos
elvai, dpfioviav KaXXiaTqv rjpp,oap,evos ov Xvpav
ovSe vaiSids dpyava, dAAa rw ovri [tfjv -^ppboapievos
oSy avTos avTov rov îov avp,<j>a>vov toXs Xoyois
TTpos rd epya, dre)(v6js hcDpiarl dXX ovk laari,
OLopLai 8e ovSe <f)pvyLaTi ovhe Xyhiari, dAA' rjTrep
fjiovr] '^XXrjviK'q eariv dpfiovia. 6 p,ev ovv tolovtos
E -xâipeLV pie Troiet <f>deyy6pbevos /cat hoKeZv otcoovv
(fiiXoXoyov elvai' ovtcx) aôhpa dnoSexopiaL Trap*
avTov rd Xeyopieva- 6 he rdvavTia tovtov irpaTTOiV
XvTTeZ pie, oao) dv hoKrj dpieivov Xeyeiv, ToaovTcp
pidXXov, /cat TTOtet av hoKelv elvai piiaoXoyov. Soj-
KpaTOVS 8' eyd) tcov p,€v X6ya)v ovk ep,TTeip6s elpa,
dXXd TTpoTepov, (hs eoLKe, twv epycov eTretpdOrjv,
Kat, e/cet avTov evpov d^tov ovTa Xoyojv KoXdJv /cat
^
tv" vpfioa/j-^vos o5 seel. Baclham.
* Laches plays with the two meanings of aTrXoDv " I am —

single-minded (simple, straightforward) in such matters,
that is, T should rather say, double-minded."
* The different modes or scales in Greek music were
38
LACHES
Socrates were present, but about ourselves. Let me
therefore repeat that tliere is no objection on my
part to holding a debate with Socrates after the
fashion that he likes ; but you must see how Laches
here feels on the matter.
LACH. I have but a single mind,^ Nicias, in regard
to discussions, or if you hke, a double rather than a
single one. For you might think me a lover, and yet
also a hater, of discussions for when I hear a man
:
discussing virtue or any kind of wisdom, one who is

truly a man and worthy of his argument, I am ex-
ceedingly delighted ; I take the speaker and his
speech together, and observe how they sort and
harmonize with each other. Such a man is exactly
—
what I understand by " musical," he has tuned
himself with the fairest harmony, not that of a lyre
or other entertaining instrument, but has made a
true concord of his own life between his words and
his deeds, not in the Ionian, no, nor in the Phrygian
nor in the Lydian, but simply in the Dorian mode,-
which is the sole Hellenic harmony. Such a man
makes me rejoice with his utterance, and anyone
would judge me then a lover of discussion, so eagerly
do I take in what he says but a man who shows the
:
opposite character gives me pain, and the better he

seems to speak, the more I am pained, with the
result, in this case, that I am judged a hater of
discussion. Now of Socrates' words I have no ex-
perience, but formerly, I fancy, I have made trial of
his deeds ; and there I found him hving up to any
associated with different moral feelings. The Dorian was

most favoured, as having a manly, stately character : the
Ionian was more passionate and contentious. The Phrygian
and Lydian were foreign modes, on the character of which
there were various opinions. Cf. Rep. 398-99.
39
.
PLATO
189 TTaarjs TTapprjaias . ei ovv /cat rovro ex^L, avfj,-
(SovXo/jLaL Kal -qSiar* av cêraôifxrjv vrro
TOLvSpi,
rov TOLOVTov, Kal ovK av dxdoifjLrjv fxavddvcov, dXXd
Kai eyo) rw SdAwvi, ev [jlovov TrpocrXa^cov, avyx<^poJ'
yrjpdaKcvv yap TToXXd StSacr/cecrât eOeXo) vtto XPV'
crrwv fiovov. tovto ydp fioi cruyxcopeiTO), dyadov
/cat avrov etvat rov 8i,SdcrKaXov, iva fxr) SvapLadrjs
(fialvcvfiai dr]Scos fJ-avOdvcov el he vecvrepos 6 8t8a-
B oKcov karat rj /xt^ttcj iv 86^r} cov rj ri dXXo rojv
TOLovTOiv exojv,ovSev p.oL fxeXei. aol ovv, co
TiOiKpares, eyd) eVayyeAAo/xat /cat StSacr/cetv /cat
eXeyxîv ifie 6 ri av ôvXr], /cat jxavOdveLV ye 6 tl
av eyd) otSa- ovroi av irap' epLol Sta/cetcrat dir^
eKeivrjs Trjs rjfiepag, fj /mct' ep.ov avvhieKLvhvvevaas
/cat eScoKas aavrov ireZpav dperrjs, rjv XPV hcSovai,
rov pLeXXovra hiKaioiS hcoaeiv. Xey* ovv 6 ri aoi
(/)iXov, fMTjSev rrjv r^jxerepav rjXiKLav inroXoyov
C TTOlOVfieVOS
2n. Ov rd vjxerepa, cos eoiKev, alrtaaofxeda fxr)
ovx eroLfia elvai Kal avfiôvXeveiv Kal avaKOTreZv.
AT. AAA' rj/xerepov 8r] epyov, co HcoKpares' eva
yap ae eycoye rjfxcjv riOiqixi' aKonei ovv avr efxov
virep rdJv veaviaKOJV, d ri SeofxeOa Trapd rwvhe
TWvddveadaL, Kal avfxôvXeve SiaXeyofievos rovrotg.
eyd) fiev ydp Kal emXavddvojJLai rjSr} rd TToXXd Sid
rrjv 7)XLKiav (Lv av Scavo-qOoJ epeadat /cat av a av
dKovaa>- edv Se fxera^v d'AAot Aoyoi yevcovrai, ov
iravv fxefMVTjfxat. Vfxels ovv Xeyere Kal Ste^tre
D TTpos vfids avrovs irepl Sv 7rpovdep,eda- eydi S'
^ This instance of Socrates' intrepidity (at Delium, cf.
above, 181 b) is more fully described by Alcibiades in the

Symposium (221).
40
;
LACHES
fine words however freely spoken. So if he has
that gift as well, his wish is mine, and I should be
very glad to be cross-examined by such a man, and
should not chafe at learning ; but I too agree %vith
Solon, while adding just one word to his saying : I
should like, as I. grow old, to learn more and more,
but only from honest folk. Let him concede to me
—
that my teacher is himself good else I shall disUke
—
my lessons and be judged a dunce but if you say
that my teacher is to be a younger man, or one who
so far has no reputation, or anything of that sort,
I care not a jot. I therefore invite you, Socrates,
both to teach and to refute me as much as you
please, and to learn too what I on my part know
such is the position you hold in my eyes since
that day on which you came through the same
danger with me,^ and gave a proof of your own
valour which is to be expected of anyone who
hopes to justify his good name. So say whatever
you like, leaving out of account the difference of
our ages.
soc. You two, it seems, will give us no ground for
complaint on the score of your not being ready
to join both in advising and in inquiring.
LYS. No, but the matter now rests with us, Socrates;
for I venture to count you as one of us. So take my
place in inquiring on behalf of the young men ;
make out what it is that we want our friends here
to tell us, and be our ad\iser by discussing it with
them. For I find that o\A'ing to my age I forget the
questions I intend to put, and also the answers I
receive ; and if the discussion changes in the middle,
my memory goes altogether. Do you therefore dis-
cuss and elucidate our problem among yourselves ;
41
PLATO
aKovaofxai koI aKovcras aS [xera M.eXrjalov touSc
TTOi-qao) Tovro 6 ri av /cat Vfjblv SoKrj.
2n. Heicrreov, co NiKta re /cat Adxt]?, Kvaiixaxoi
Koi MeXTjorta. d fiev ovv vvv Sr] irrexî-pT^cranev
(JKOTTeZv, Ttves" ot StSacr/caAot rjixiv TrJ9 roLaurrj^
TratSeta? yeyovaacv t] rivas aXXovs êXrtovs ttc-
voi-^Kanev, lacos jxkv ov KaKcos e;\;et iêrd^CLV /cat
E TO. TOiavra rjfjids avrovs' aAA' otfjuai /cat rj rotaSe
(TKeifjis els Tavrov <f>epei, crxedov 8e rt /cat /LtaAAov
€^ d-pxrjs etr] dv. el yap Tvyxdvojjiev eTTicrrdfievoi
oTovovi' TTepi, OTt TTapayevofxcvov tco êXriov
TTOiel eKelvo & Ttapeyevero, /cat Trpoaert oloi re
eafjiev avro TrapayiyveaOai e/cetVa», hr]Xov
Troielv
on avro ye rovro, ov nepi, avp,ôvXoi dv
'iap,ev
yevoipieda cos dv ris avro pdara Kal dpiar' dv

Krrjaairo. tacos ovv ov pbavddvere puov 6 ri Xeyco,
dXX' d)8e paov piaOrjaeode. el rvy^dvopiev eTn-
190 ardpLevoL, on oiJjls Trapayevopievr] 6(f)daXpt,ols êX-
riovs TTOtet eKeivovs ols Trapeyevero, /cat Trpoaen
oloi re eapt.ev TTOieZv avrrjv TrapayiyveaQaL o^/xacrt,
hfiXov on difjiv ye 'iapiev avrrjv 6 ri iror eanv, rjs
TTepi avpiôvXoi dv yevoipLeda (hs dv ti? avrr)v
pdara /cat dpiara Kriqaairo. el yap pLrjS^ avro
rovro vor' earnv oipts rj 6
elSelpiev, o ri eanv n
a/co7^, crxoXfj dv avpiôvXoi ye d'^tot Xoyov yevoip,eda
/cat larpol rj rrepl 6(f)daXp,cov r) nepl (vrcxjv, ovnva
B rpoTTOV aKOTjv rj oi/jlv /caAAtcrr' dv Kr^qaairo ns.
AA. *AXr]9rj Xeyeis, c5 HwKpares.
5ft. Adxy]S, Kal vvv rjpLas rc68e irapaKa-
OvKOVv, o)
Xeirov els avp.ôvXrjv, riv' dv rpoirov rols vleatv

avrojv dperr) napayevopievr] rats ilivxaZs dpceivovs
7roLT]aeLev ;
42
LACHES
and I will listen, and then with my friend Melesias
I will act at once upon whatever may be your
decision.
soc. Let us do, Nicias and Laches, as Lysimachus
and Melesias bid us. Now the questions that we
—
attempted to consider a while ago " Who have been
our teachers in this sort of training ? What other
persons have we made better?" —
are perhaps of
a kind on which we might well examine ourselves :
but I believe this other way of inquiring leads to the

same thing, and will probably also start more from
the beginning. For if we happen to know of such
and such a thing that by being joined to another
thing it makes this thing better, and further, if we
are able to get the one joined to the other, we
obviously know the thing itself on which we might
be consulting as to how it might be best and most
easily acquired. Now I daresay you do not grasp
my meaning. Well, you will grasp it more easily
in this way. If we happen to know that sight joined
to eyes makes those eyes the better for it, and further
if we are able to get it joined to eyes, we obviously
know what this faculty of sight is, on which we might
be consulting as to how it might be best and most
easily acquired. For if we did not know first of all
what sight or hearing is, we should hardly prove
ourselves consultants or physicians of credit in the
matter of eyes or ears, and the best way of acquiring
sight or hearing.
LACH. Truly spoken, Socrates.
soc.And you know, Laches, at this moment our
two friends are inviting us to a consultation as to the
way in which virtue may be joined to their sons'
souls, and so make them better ?
43
PLATO
AA. Hdvv ye.
2n. *A/o' ovv rovTO y inrapxîv Set, to elScvai
o Tt TTOT eariv aperrj; el yap ttov ftr^S' dperr)V
elSetfxev to TrapaTrav o ri TTore Tvy)(dveL 6v, riv^dv
C rpoTTOV TOVTOV avfxôvXoi yevoLfxeOa orcoovv, ottcos
dv avro KoXXiara KT'qaaLTo;
AA. OvSeva, efjMiye So/cet, c5 TicoKpares.
5fl. Oa/Ltev dpa, <L Adx^jS, etSeVat avro o ri ecrriv.
AA. âfxev fxevTOL.

2n. OvKow o ye lafiev, kov eLTTOLfiev B-qnov ri
eariv.
AA. Tiios yap ov;
2n. M-)7 roLVVv, c3 dpiare, Trepl oXt]? dperijs ev-
Oecog aKOTTcofieda' ttXcov yap tacos epyov dXXd
jjbepovs Tivo? 7T€pi TTpdJTOV tSojfxev, el iKavibs exo/xev
D npos TO etSeVat* /cat rjfiXv, d)S to elKos, pdcov rj
OKeipi's eoTai.
AA. 'AAA' ovTio TTOLcijpLev, CO HwKpaTcg, d)S crv
ôvXei.
2X1. Tt ovv dv TTpoeXoLfxeda tcov ttjs dpeTrjg
fjiepaJv; r] SrjXov Srj otl tovto els o Teiveiv SoKel
rj ev Tolg ottAoi? fxdd-qaLs; SoKel 8e ttov tols
TToXXoLS els dvhpeiav. rj ydp;
iVA. Kat jjidXa Srj ovroj SoKeX.
2X1. TovTO Toivvv TTpdJTOv emxeiprja(jjp,ev , a>
Aa)(r}s, elirelv, dvhpeia tl ttot* eaTLV eireiTa fxeTa

TOVTO aKeijjojxeda /cat otco dv TpoTTCo tols veaviaKois
E TTapayevoiTO , Kad^ oaov olov t€ e^ iTnTrjSev/JLaTCDV

re /cat {xadrjixaTcov Trapayeveadai. dXXd Treipd)
ehreZv o Xeyoj, tl cgtlv dvhpeia.
AA. Ov jxd Tov Ala, o) HojKpaTes, ov x^XeTTov
emelv el ydp tis edeXoi ev ttj Tdêt fjievcov dfxvve-
44
LACHES
LACH. Yes, indeed.
soc. Then our first requisite to know what ^^rtue ^
is
is ? For surely, if we had no

idea at all what virtue
actually is, we could not possibly consult with any-
one as to how he might best acquire it ?
LACH. I certainly think not, Socrates.
soc. Then we say, Laches, that we know what it is.
LACH. I suppose we must.
soc. And of that which we know, I presume, we
can also say what it is.
LACK. To be sure.
soc. Let us not, therefore, my good friend, inquire
forthwith about the whole of \irtue, since that may
well be too much for us but let us first see if we are
;
sufficiently provided with knowledge about some part

of it. In all hkelihood this will make our inquiry
easier.
LACH. Yes, let us do as you propose, Socrates.
soc. Then which of the parts of \-irtue shall we
choose ? Clearly, I think, that which the art of
fighting in armour is supposed to promote ; and
that, of course, is generally supposed to be courage,
is itnot ?
LACH. Yes, generally is, to be sure.
it
soc. Then our first endeavour be. Laches, to

let
say what courage is after that we can proceed to
:
inquire in what way our young men may obtain it,

in so far as it is to be obtained by means of pursuits
and studies. Come, try and tell me, as I suggest,
what is courage.
LACK. On my word, Socrates, that is nothing diffi-
cult anyone who is willing to stay at his post and
:
* Here, and in what follows, " virtue " embraces the

accomplishments and excellences of a good citizen.
VOL. IV C 45
.
PLATO
adai Tovs TToXefjLLovs /cat fj,r] (f)€vyoL, ev ladi on
dvSpetos av e'irj.
sn. Eu fiev Aeyet?, w
AdxrjS' aXX' taios iyco
aiTiog, ov aa(f)(jog to ae anTOKpivaadaL /xr]
eiTTCov,
rovTO o Stavoovfievos 'qpofx-qv, oAA' erepov.
AA. Ylcbs TOVTO XeyeLS, a> SaJ/cpaTe?;
191 2n. 'Eyo) <f>pdaa>, edv ofd? re yevco/xaL. dv-
Spelos 7TOV ovTos, ov Kal ai) Xeyeig, o? dv ev rfj rdêi
fievcDV fidx^jTat rots TToXefiioig.
AA. 'Eyco yovv ^rjp,i.
2n. Kat yap eyd>. aXXd tL av dhe, o? dv <j)evyoiv
fidx^jTat, roLS TToAe/Ltt'ot?, aAAa pir] p,evcov;
AA. Udjs (f)evycov;
2n. "Q.GTTep 7TOV Kal JjKvdai Xeyovrai ovx "^ttov
<f)evyovres r} SicoKovres fxdxeadai, /cat "Opirjpos ttov
€7Taii'djv Tovs rod Alveiov lttttovs Kpatrrvd p-dX
B evda Kal ev6a €(f)7] avrovs eTTLaraadat, SicoKeLV rjSe

<j>eêaOaL' Kal avrov tov Alveiav Kara rovr* ev-
eKcopiiaae, Kara rr]v rod (f)6ôv €7ncrr'qp,r)v, Kal emev
avrov elvai pL'qcrrojpa (j)6ôLo.
AA. Kat KoXcbg ye, c3 Saj/cpares" Ttepl dppidrcov
yap eXeye- /cat ai) ro rojv HkvOcov iTnrecuv Trepi
Xeyeis. ro p.ev yap lttttlkov [ro eKeivcov] ovtco
fidx^rat,, ro 8e OTrXiriKov [ro ye rcov 'EAAt^vcov],^
cos iyd) Xeyco.
2n. nX-^v y' tacos, CO AdxrjS, ro AaKeBatpLOVLOJV
C AaKeSaipLOVLOvs ydp <j)aaLV ev JlAaratats', eTreiSr]
TTpos rots yeppo(f)6pois eyevovro, ovk edeXetv pLevov-
^ TO sKeivuv, t6 ye tQv 'EW^^vuv om. papyr. Arsin.
* II. viii. 107-108. Socrates pretends to take the hero's

epithet "prompter of fright" (in the enemy) as meaning
46
LACHES
face the enemy, and does not run away, you may be
sure, courageous.
is
soc. Rightly spoken. Laches; but I fear I am to

blame, by not putting it clearly, for your having
answered not the intention of my question, but
something else.
LACH. What do you mean by that, Socrates ?
soc. I explain, so far as I can
\\i\\ let us take that
:
man to be courageous who, as you describe him

yourself, stays at his post and fights the enemy.
LACH. I, for one, agree to that.
soc. Yes, and I do too. But what of this other
kind of man, who fights the enemy while fleeing,
and not staying ?
LACH. How fleeing ?

soc. Well, as the Scythians are said to fight, as
much fleeing as pursuing ; and as you know Homer
says in praise of Aeneas' horses, that they knew
" how to pursue and to flee in fright full s\viftly
this way and that way ; " and he glorifies Aeneas
himself for this very knowledge of fright, calDng
him " prompter of fright."^
LACH. And very properly too, Socrates ; for he
was speaking of chariots and so are you speaking
;
of the mode of the Scythian horsemen. That is the

way of cavalry fighting but with men-at-arms it is
;
as I state it.^
soc. Except, perhaps, Laches, in the case of the
Spartans. For they say that at Plataea, when the
Spartans came up to the men with wicker shields,
that he prompted fright in himself and his side, and so knew

all about the feeling.
* i.e. they stand fast at their posts in the ranks (above,
191 a).
47
PLATO
Ttt? irpos avTovs fidxecrdaL, dXXa (f)€vy€i,v, iTreiBrj
B* iXydrjuav alraêis twv YlepaaJv, a.vaarpe<f)OiJLivovs
coairep tTTTrea? fidxâOai /cat ovtoj VLKrjaai rriv
€K€l fjLaxrjv.
AA. ÂXrjOrj Aeyet?.
2n. TovTO Toivvv dprt, eXeyov, otl iyo) atrio^
fiT] KaXciJs ere dvoKpLvaaOaL, on ov koAcD? 'qpop.rjv.
D ôvXofievos ydp aov irvdeadai firj fiovov tovs ev

TO) ottXltikw dvBpelovs, dXXd /cat rovs ev roJ
iTTTTLKCp /cat ev arvjjLTTavTL TO) TToXepnKO) €tSet, /cat
//,i7 fiovov Toiis €v ru) TToXefxco, dXXd /cat roiis ev
rols TTpos TTjv ddXarrav kivSvvols dvhpeiovs ovrag,
/cat oaoi ye irpos voaovs /cat ocrot Trpos irevias i)
Kal TTpos rd TToAiTt/ca dvhpeloi clat, /cat ert av fir]
fjLovovocroi rrpos XvTras dvSpetoC eicriv 7} <j>6ôvs,
dXXd /cat TTpds CTTtdv/jLLas rj rjSovds Setvoi p,dx€&daL,
E /cat pi€vovT€S rj —
dvaaTp€(f>ovT€S etcri ydp ttov rives,
<L Adx'QS, Kal €v rots roiovroig dvSpeioi.
AA. Kat a(f)6Spa, o) Sco/c/Dare?.
2G. OvKOVv dvBpeioi fxkv irdwes ovtol claiv,
oAA ot /xev ev rjoovais, ot o ev Avrrais, 01 o ev
emdvpîaLS ol S' ev ôôls rrjv avSpetav KeKTrjvTaf
ot Se y\ ot/zat, SetAiat' ev rols avrols Tovrofs.
AA. Yidvv ye.
2fl. Ti TTOTe ov eKdrepov tovtcdv, tovto irrvvda-
vofjirjv. TrdXiv ovv TretpcD eiTrelv dvhpeiav Trpajrov,

ri ov ev Trdat rovrois rainov ecrnv ^ ovttoj /cara-
fiavOdveig o Xeyco;
AA. Ov rrdvv ti.
^ In the final struggle at Plataea (479 b.c.) the Spartans
at first hesitated before the barrier of wicker shields opposed

48
LACHES
they were not willing to stand and fight against
these, but fled when, however, the Persian ranks
;
were broken, the Spartans kept turning round and

fighting like cavalry, and so won that great battle.^
LACH. What you say is true.
soc. And so this is what I meant just now by
saying that I was to blame for your ^\Tong answer,
by putting my question \^Tongly. For I wanted to
have your \iew not only of brave men-at-arms, but
also of courage in cavalry and in the entire warrior
class ; and of the courageous not only in war but in
the perils of the sea, and all who in disease and
poverty, or again in pubUc affairs, are courageous ;
and further, all who are not merely courageous
against pain or fear, but doughty fighters against
desires and pleasures, whether standing their ground
—
or turning back upon the foe for I take it. Laches,
there are courageous people in all these kinds.
LACH. Very much so, Socrates.
soc. Then all these are courageous, only some have
acquired courage in pleasures, some in pains, some
in desires and some in fears, while others, I conceive,
have acquired cowardice in these same things.
LACH. To be sure.
soc. What either of them^ is —
that is what I
wanted to know. So try again, and tell me first
what is this thing, courage, which is the same in all
of these cases or do you still not comprehend my
;
meaning ?
LACH. Not very well.
to them by the Persians but by a supreme effort they broke

;
through and defeated the Persians by turning on them in

man-to-man combat. Cf. Herod, ix. 61-2.
* i.e. courage and cowardice.
49
PLATO
192 2Jl. AAA' c5Se Ae'ycu, coarrep av el raôs rjpa)-
Tcov TL TTOT eoTLV , o Kal iv Tip Tpex^Lv Tvy)(dveL ov
r]fiXv Kal iv rep KidapiHêiv /cat ev rep Xeyecv Kal iv
TO) [xavdavcLV Kal iv aAAot? ttoXXols, Kal crxeSov ri
avTO K€KT'qpt,eda, oS /cat Trept aîov Xiyeiv, ^ iv
Tat? Tcjv xî'P^v TTpdêaiv rj arKeXcov rj oro/xaros'
T€ Kai (f)a)vrjg ^ Siavoias' ^ ovx ovro) Kal ai) Xiyetg;
AA. ria^'y ye.
2fl. El roLvvv ris /xe epoiro' c5 Sctj/cpare?, tl
AeyeLS tovto, o iv irdaiv ovofxaêis raxvTrjra
B etvai; enroLpt, dv avrcp, on rrjv iv dXtycp XP^^V
TToXXd hLaTTparropLev-qv hvvap.LV raxvrrJTa eywye
KaXdj Kal Trept (fxoinjv Kal nepl hp6p,ov Kal Trept
raAAa Trdvra.
AA. Opdcos ye av Xeywv.
2n. Heipw 817 /cat crv, cS Adx^]?, rrjv dvBpeiav
ovrois elTTelv, ris ovaa SvvapLis rj avrrj iv rjSovfj
KaL iv XvTTT) Kal iv aTTaaiv of? vvv Srj iXeyojxev
avrrjv eivai, eVetra dvSpeia K€KXr]rai.
AA. AoKel roivvv p.oL Kaprepia rt? efv'at ttjs
ifjvxrjs, el TO ye hid Trdvroiv [irepl avSpeta?]*^ Trecfiv-
Kos Set eiTTetv.
C Sn. 'AAAa p,r]v Set, et ye to ipcorcopievov a-noKpi-

vovpLeOa rjpbZv avrols. tovto toIvvv epboiye <âi-
V€Tai, OTC ovTt irdad ye, cu? iycpp,at, Kaprepia
dvhpeia crot âtVeraf re/c/zatpo/xat 8e ivdevSe' <yx^'
86v yap TL otSa, cL Adx'QS, otl rdjv ttovv koXcov
TTpaypbarcov rjyfj av dvhpeiav elvai,
^ Trept dvdpeias secl. Badham.
.50
LACHES
soc. I mean in this way : suppose, for instance, 1
were asking you what is quickness, as we find it in
running and harping, in speaking and learning, and
in many other activities, and as possessed by us
practically in any action worth mentioning, whether
of arms or legs, or mouth or voice, or mind or do
:
you not use the word so ?

LACH. Yes, to be sure.
soc. Well then, suppose someone asked me :
Socrates, what do you mean by this thing which

in all cases you term quickness ? My reply
would be :The faculty that gets a great deal
done in a little time is what I call quickness, whether
in a voice or in a race or in any of the other
instances.
LACH. Your statement would be quite correct,
soc. So now try and tell me on your part, Laches,
about courage in the same way what faculty is it,
:
the same whether in pleasure or in pain or in any

of the things in which we said just now it was to be
found, that has been singled out by the name of
courage ?
LACH. Well then, I take it to be a certain en-
durance of the soul, if I am to speak of the natural
quality that appears in them all.
soc. Why, of course if we are each to

we must,
answer the other's actual question. Now it appears
to me that by no means all endurance, as I conceive
it, can appear to you to be courage. And my
grounds for thinking so are these I am almost
:
certain. Laches, that you rank courage among the

nobler qualities.
51
;
PLATO
AA. E5 fj,€v ovv tadi on rcbv /caAAtWcov.
Sfl. OvKOVu 7] ix€v ixera (fipovqaecDS /ca/arcpta
KoXrj Kayad-q;
AA. Udvv ye.
D 2n. Tt S' rj fier* a^pocr6v7]s ; ov rovvavrlov
TavTTj pXaêpa Kal KaKovpyos;
AA. Nat.
sn. KoAoi/ ow Tt <j)riaeLs oi) etvai to tolovtov,
ov KaKovpyov re Kal ^Xaêpov
AA. OvKovv BiKaiov ye, cb Sca/c/oare?.
2n. OvK dpa r-qv ye roLavTTjv Kapreplav avhpeiav
ofjioXoyrjaeis eluai, eTTeiSrjTTep ov koXtj eanv, t]
he avhpeia koXov eanv.

AA. *AXr]6rj Aeyei?.
2fl. *H (f)p6vL[jbos dpa Kaprepia Kara rov aov
Xoyov dvhpeia dv etr].
AA. "Eoi/cei/.
E 2n. "IScofxev St], 17 els ri ^povijxos; tj rj els
drravra Kal rd pueydXa Kal rd ap-iKpa; olov et ns
KaprepeZ dvaXtcTKCDV dpyvptov ^povipnos , elhojs
OTL dvaXcoaas TvXeov eKT-âeraL, tovtov dvSpelov
KaXoLS dv;
AA. Ma At" OVK eycoye.
2n. 'AAA' OLOV et ns larpos cov, TTepnrXevfiovLa rov
vleos exopievov dXXov tlvos Kal Seofievov Trielv
rj
^ (f}ayeZv hovvai, pLrj KapiTTTOiTO dXXd KaprepoZ;

193 AA. Oi5S' oTTcoanovv ouS' av-rq.
sn. 'AAA' ev TToXe/JLcp Kaprepovvra dvSpa Kal
iOeXovra pidxôOaL, (fipovipicos Xoyilopievov, elSora
fxev on ÔTjd'qaovaiv aAAoi avTip, Trpos eXdrrovs he
52
I
LACHES
LACH. Nay, among the noblest, you may be quite
certain.
soc. And endurance joined with wisdom is noble
and good ?
LACH, Very much so.
soc. But what of it when joined with folly } Is it
not, on the contrary, hurtful and mischievous ?
LACH. Yes.
soc. And can you say that such a thing is noble,
when it is both mischievous and hurtful ?
LACK. Not \sith any justice, Socrates.
soc. Then you will not admit that such an en-
durance is courage, seeing that it is not noble,
whereas courage is a noble quahty.
L.\CH. That is true.
soc. So, by your account, wise endurance will be
courage.
LACH. Apparently.
soc. Now let us see in what it is wise. In all
things, whether great or small ? For instance, if a
man endures in spending money wisely, because he
knows that by spending he will gain more, would
you call him courageous .''
LACH. On my word, not I.

soc. Or what do you call it in the case of a
doctor who, when his son or anyone else is
suffering from inflanunation of the lungs and begs
for something to drink or eat, inflexibly and endur-
ingly refuses .''
LACH. That is no case of it, in any sense,

either.
soc. Well now, when a man endures in war, and is
willing to fight, on a wise calculation whereby he knows
that others will come to his aid, and that the forces
VOL. IV c 2 53
. .
PLATO
Kal <f)avXoT€povs fxaxelrai rj fxed^ (Lv auro? iariv,
€Ti, Se )(copLa e)(€L Kpeirrco, tovtov tov fiera rijg
ToiavTTjs (fypovqaecos /cat TrapaaKevrjs Kaprepovvra

avSpeiorepov av (f)aLrjs rj tov iv rw evavrico
arparoTTeSo) ideXovra VTrofieveiv t€ koI Kap-
repelv;
B AA. Tov ivTcp evavTLO), e/xotye So/cet, w HcoKpares.
2n. 'AAAo. fiTjv a(f>povear4pa ye rj tovtov rj rj
TOV €T€pov KapTepia.
AA. 'AXrjdrj Xeyeis.
2n. Kat TOV fM€T^ cTTLaT'qpLrjg apa mTnKrjs KapTC-
povvTa iv L7T7TOfx,axi'0. '^TTOV <f>rja€ts dvSpelov etvai
7j TOV avev iTnaTijjjLrjs
AA. "E/Lioiye So/cet.

C 2n. Kat TOV /Ltero, a(f>€vSovrjTt.K'rjs rj TO^CKrjs r]
aAA?^? Tivos Te)(vr]g KapTepovvTa.
AA. Hdvv ye.
2n. Kat oCTOt dv edeXcoaiv els <f>peap KaTaâivov-
Tes Kat KoXv/JiâJVTes KapTepeiv iv tovtco tco epyw,
firj ovT€s ScLVOL, rj ev tivi dXXcp toiovtco, dvSpetoTe-
povs ^Tjaeis tCov to-vto. SeivcDf

AA. Tt ydp dv Tis dXXo <f>aLrj, w HcoKpaTes;
2fl. OvSiv, etrrep oIolto ye ovtojs.
AA. 'AAAo, ixrjv OLfiaL ye.

2n. Kat fxrjv ttov d(f>poveaT€paJS ye, c5 Adxr)9,
at ToiovTOL KLvSwevoval re /cat KapTepovaiv rj ol
/LieTct TexyrjS avTO rrpaTTOVTes.
AA. OatVovTttt.
D 2n. OvKovv alcrxpd rj d(f)pa)v ToXjxa tc /cat
KapTeprjats iv tco Trpoadev i<f)dv7j rjjxlv ovaa /cai
PXaêpd;
AA. Ilavy ye.
54
LACHES
against him be fewer and feebler than those
will
who are wth
him, and when he has besides the
—
advantage of position, would you say of this man,
if he endures with such wisdom and preparation,
that he, or a man in the opposing army who is
wilUng to stand up against him and endure, is the
more courageous ?
LACH. The man opposed to him, I should say,
Socrates.
see. But yet his endurance is more foolish than
that of the first man.
LACH. That is true.
soc. So you would say that he who in a cavalry
fight endures with a knowledge of horsemanship is
less courageous than he who endures without it.
LACH. Yes, I think so.
soc. And he who endures vnih a skill in slinging
or shooting or other such art.
LACH. To be sure.
soc. And anyone who agrees to descend into a
well, and to dive, and to endure in this or other such
action, without being an adept in these things, you
would say is more courageous than the adepts.
LACH. Yes, for what else can one say, Socrates ?
soc. Nothing, proîded one thinks so.
LACH. But I do think it.
soc. And you observe, I suppose, Laches, that
persons of this sort are more foolish in their risks
and endurances than those who do it with proper
skill.
LACH. Evidently.
soc. Now, we found before that foolish boldness
and endurance are base and hurtful ?
LACK. Quite so.
55
. ;
PLATO
2n. *H Be ye avSpela (hfioXoyeZro koXov ti
etvai.
AA. '
Q-fMoXoyetro yap.
2n. Nw 8' aS vaXiv (l)aiJ.€V eKeivo to alaxpov,
rrjv d(f)pova Kapreprjacv, dvSpelav elvai.

AA. 'EotVa/xev'.
2fl. KaXa>s ovv aoi SoKov/xev Xiyeiv;
AA. Ma rov Hi , oj IjioKpares, efxoL fiev ov.
2n. OvK dpa TTOV Kara rov aov Xoyov hcopiOTi
E rjpfJLocTfieda iyo) re Kal av, c5 AdxrjS' rd yap epya
ov crvfji(f>a>v€l rj/jiLV rols XoyoLS. epycp jxev yap,
(Ls €OLK€, (fiaiTj dv ris rjfjids dvSpeias pLerexeiv,
Xoycp 8', (hs eyoi/xat, ovK dv, el vvv rjfMcov aKOvoeie
SiaXeyopcevoiV.
AA. ' AX-qOearrara Xeyets.
2n. Ti ovv; SoKel koXov etvat ovtcds "qfidg 8ta-
Ketadat;
AA. Oi)8' oTTCoariovv
2n. BouAet ovv a> Xeyofxev 7Tet.da)/xeda to ye to-
aoVTov;
AA. To 7TOLOV 8r] TOVTO, KOI TLVt, TOVTCp
194 2n. Toj Xoycx) OS Kaprepelv KeXevei. el ovv
ôvXei, /cat rjfJiels errl ttj ^rjT'qaei eTTifxetvajfiev re
/cat KapTep'qacofiev, Iva Kal fjirj rj/jicov avTTj rj dvSpeta
KaTayeXdcrr] , oTt ovk dvhpeiojs avrrjv t,T)Toviiev, el
dpa TToAAa/cts" avTrj rj Kaprep-qals ecmv dvhpeia.

AA. 'Eyco p,ev eroLfios, co ^coKpares, îr] Trpoadti-
araaOaf Kairoi d-rjdrjs r&v roiovroiv Xoytuv
y' elpX
oAAa ris /x€ /cat (jyiXoviKia etXr](f)e Trpos rd elprjfxeva,
B /cat d>s dXrjddJs dyavaKrd), el ovrcoal d vou) firj
56
LACHES
soc. But courage was admitted to be something
noble.
LACH. Yes, it was.
soc. WTiereas now, on the contrary, we say that
this base thing — —
fooUsh endurance is courage.
LACH. Apparently.
soc. Then do you think our statement is correct ?
LACH. On my word, Socrates, not I.
soc. Hence I presume that, on your showing, you
and I, Laches, are not tuned to the Dorian harmony :
for our deeds do not accord with our words. By

our deeds, most likely, the world might judge us
to have our share of courage, but not by our words,
I fancy, if they should hear the way we are talking
now.
LACH. That is very true.
soc. Well now, does it seem right that we should

be in such a condition ?
LACH. Not by any means.
soc. Then do you mind if we accept our statement
to a certain point ?
LACH. To what point do you mean, and what

statement ?
soc. That which enjoins endurance. And, if you

please, let us too be steadfast and enduring in our
inquiry, so as not to be ridiculed by courage herself
for faihng to be courageous in our search for her,
when we might perchance find after all that this
very endurance iscourage.
LACH. For my part I am ready, Socrates, to con-
tinue without faltering ; and yet I am unaccustomed
to discussions of this sort. But a certain ambitious
ardour has got hold of me at hearing what has been
said, and I am truly vexed at finding myself unable
57
;
PLATO
OLOS T €LfjLL €LTT€lv . voeZv fjih' yap e/xotye Sokw
irepL avSpelas o n eartv, ovk oiSa 8' ottj] /xe apri
hL€(f)vyGV, ware pbrj avXXaêZv raJ Xoyco avTTjv /cat
enrelv o ri eariv.
2fl. OvKovv, CO (j>lXe, Tov dyadov Kvvriyiriqv
fieradetv XP"^ '<'cit fir) dvievai.
AA. HavrdnaaL fxev ovv.
2n. BouAet ovp Kal NiKiav rovSe TrapaKaXoJfjiev
6771 TO KVVTjyeaiov, et Ti rj/xaJv evTTopcLrepog iartv;
C AA. BovAofiaf TTcog yap ov;

2n. "Wl hrj, (L Nt/cta, dvSpdcri, (fyiXois ;\;€i/xaô/xe-
vois iv Xoyo) Kal dTropovac ôrjdrjoov , et nva €\€ls
Svva/jiLV. rd p,kv yap Srj rjixirepa opas (os dnopa'
ai) 8' €L7T(hv o Ti rjyfj dvSpeiav etvai, rjfids re rijg
aTTopias e/cAucrat /cat avTos d voelg ro) Xoyip ê-

âlcoaai.
Nl. Ao/cetre roivvv /xot TraAat ov KaXcvg, co
HcoKpare'S , opiêudai rrjv dv^peiav o yap iyd> aov

tJSt] KoXdJs XeyovTOS dK-^Koa, rovrcp ov XPV^^^-
2n. Ilotaj §7^, a> NiKta;
D Nl. YloXXaKig aKrjKod aov Xeyovros, on ravra
ayaOos eKaaros rjficov, dnep aocfyo^, d 8e aiiadrjs,
ravra 8e /ca/cds".
2n. *AXrjdrj fjL€vroLvrj Ata Aeyet?, tS NtKta.
Nl. OvKOVV etVep o dvhpeZos dyaOos, SrjXov on

ao(f)6s eanv.
2n. "H/couo-a?, c5 Ad-)(y]s
AA. "Eycoye, Kat oi) a(j>68pa ye ixavddvco o Ae'yet.
58
LACHES
to express offhand what I think. For I feel that I
conceive in thought what courage is, but somehow or
other she has given me the shp for the moment, so
that I fail to lay hold of her in speech and state what
she is.
soc. Well, my dear sir, the good huntsman must
follow the hounds and not give up the chase.
LACH. Yes, indeed, by all means.
soc. Then do you agree to our inviting Nicias here
to join. in our hunt ? He may be more resourceful
than we are.
LACH. I agree, of course.
soc. Come now, Nicias, and use what powers you
have to assist your friends, who are caught in a
storm of argument and are quite perplexed. You
see the perplexity of our case you must now tell us
;
what you think courage is, and so at once set us free

from our perplexity and give your own thoughts the
stabihty of speech.
NIC Well, for some time I have been thinking,
Socrates, that you two are not defining courage in
the right way ; for you are not acting upon an
admirable remark which I have formerly heard you
make.
soc. What is that, Nicias ?
NIC I have often heard you say that every man

is good in that wherein he is wise, and bad in that
wherein he is unlearned.
soc. Well, that is true, Nicias, I must say.
NIC And hence, if the brave man is good, clearly
he must be wise.
soc. Do you hear him. Laches ?
LACH. I do, without understanding very well what
he says.
59
; ; ;
PLATO
sn. 'AAA' iycb Sokco iiavddveiv, /cat jxol BoKel
dvTjp ao<j)iav tlvo. rrjv dvhpeiav Xeyeiv.
AA. lioiav, d) "EicoKpaTes, aoîav
E 2X1. OvKovv Tovhe rovro ipcords;
AA "Kycoye.
2n. "Wl St^, ayroj etTre, a) Ni/ct'a, TTOta ao(f>La
dvSpeia dv etr] Kara tov aov Xoyov. ov ydp ttov rj
ye avXr^riKri.
NI. Ovhapidjs.
Sfl. Oi5Se jU.Tî' r^ KidapiaTiKri.
NI. Ou S^ra.
2n. 'AAAd rts S17 auTT7 7} rtVo? €Tnarrjp,rj
AA. riavy /xev ow opdw?
avrov ipcuras, oJ
HcoKpares, /cat eiTTeTO) ye riva <f)rjalv avrrjv elvac.
NI. TavT7]v eycoye, c5 Aa;^?^?, tt^v tcop heivdjv
195 Kttt dappaXeoiv iTnaTqfMTjv /cat ev TroAe/Lto) koI iv
roLS aAAoi? aTracrtv.
AA. 'Q? droTTa Xeyei, c3 TicoKpares.
2n. ri/ao? Tt Tovr* eiTres" ^Xeiftas, cS Kdyr^s;
AA. Dpo? o Tt; ;^wpts' St^ttou ao(f)ia iarlv dv-
Spelas.
2n. Oy/cow ^Tâi ye Nt/cta?.
AA. Oi) fjt,evTOt fxa Ata* ravra rot /cat Xrjpet.
2n. Oj3/cow SiSdaKcofJLev avrov, dXXd pL-fj A0180-
poj/xei'.
NI. Ou/c, aAAa /Liot 80/cei, 60 HcoKpares, Adx^js
eTTidvpielv /cd/xe <f)aurjvat, pbrjSev Xeyovra, otl /cat
B ai^TO? dprt TOLOVTOS e(f)dv'r).
AA. ndt'U /xev ow, a) Ni/cta, /cat TTeLpdao/xai

ye ovSev ydp Xeyeis' inel avriKa iv
d7TO(f>rjvai.
Tats voaois ovx ol larpol rd 8etm imcTTavTaL
60
LACHES
soc. But I think I understand it : our friend
appears to me to mean that courage is a kind of
wisdom.
LACH. What kind of wisdom, Socrates ?
soc. Well, will you put that question to your friend
here?
LACH. I do.
Come now, tell him, Nicias, what kind of
soc.
wisdom courage may be, by your account. Not that,
I presume, of flute-playing.
Not at all.
NIC.
Nor yet that of harping.
soc.
NIC. Oh, no.
soc. But what is this knowledge then, or of what ?
LACH. I must say you question him quite correctly,
Socrates, so let him just tell us what he thinks it is.
—
NIC I say. Laches, that it is this the knowledge
of what is to be dreaded or dared, either in war or
in anything else.
LACH. How strangely he talks, Socrates !
soc. What is it that makes you say that, Laches ?

LACH. What is it ? Why, surely wdsdom is distinct
from courage.
soc. Well, Nicias denies that.
LACH. He does indeed, to be sure : that is where
he just babbles.
soc. Then
let us instruct and not abuse him.
No, it seems to me, Socrates, that Laches
NIC.
wants to have it proved that I am talking nonsense,
because he was proved a moment ago to be in the
same case himself.
LACH. Quite so, Nicias, and I will try to make it
evident. You are talking nonsense for instance,
:
do not doctors know what is to be dreaded in dis-

61
PLATO
7] ot avSpetoi hoKovai aoi i-niaTaadaL; "q rovs
larpovs crv dvSpeiovs KaXets;
Nl. Oj58' oTTCoartovv.
AA. Ovhi ye Toijs yecopyovs otp-aL. /caiVot rd
ye ev rfj yeoipyia heuvd ovtoi St^ttov eTTiaravrai,
Kai OL aAAot hr]pLiovpyol aTravres rd iv rat? avTcov
rexvats Seivd re /cat dappaXea taacnv aAA' ovhev
C Tt yuaAAov oStoc dvhpeloi elaiv.
2n. Tt So/cei AdxrjS Xeyeiv, c5 Nt/cta; eoLKe
fievToi Xeyeiv ti.
Nl. Kat yap Xeyet, ye tl, ov jxevroi dXrjdeg ye.
5fi. IlaJS' St^;
Nl. "On oierat rovs larpovs TrXeov ri elSevat

TTepl rovs Kapuvovras rj ro vyieivov eiTreZv otov re
/cat voatohes. oi 8e Stjttou roaovrov p,6vov 'iaaaiv
el Se Seivov T(p rovro ecrrt ro vyiaiveiv p,dXXov r]
ro Kdpiveiv, riyfj av rovri, c5 Adx'f]?, rovs larpovs

eTriaraadai; t) ov ttoXXoIs o'let e/c rrjs vocrov dp,eLvov
J) elvaL fir) dvaarrjvai ^ dvaarijvai; rovro yap elire-
av Trdat, (f>rjs dpieivov etvai l,fjv /cat ov ttoXXoIs

Kpelrrov redvdvai;
AA. Olpâi eycoye rovro ye.
til. Ot? ovv reOvdvai XvaireXei, ravrd otet Seivd
elvai, /cat ots ^fjvi
AA. OvK eycoye.
Ni. 'AAAo. rovro Srj av St'So*? rots' larpoZs yiyva>-
aKeiv ^ aAAa> rivt 8r]p,Lovpycp ttXtjv rw rdjv Seivojv
Kat p.r) Seivcov eTTLar-qpiovi, ov eyd) dvSpeiov /caAcD;
2n. Karavoeis, oi Adx^jS, o ti Xeyet;
62
—
LACHES
ease ? Or do you suppose that the courageous know
this ? Or do you call doctors courageous ?
No, not at all.
NIC.
LACH. Nor, I fancy, farmers either. And yet they,
I presume, know what is to be dreaded in farming,
and every other skilled worker knows what is to be
dreaded and dared in his own craft but they are ;
none the more courageous for that.

soc. What is Laches saying, in your opinion,
Nicias ? There does seem to be something in it.
NIC. Yes, there is something, only it is not true.
soc. How so ?
NIC Because he thinks that doctors know some-

thing more, in treating sick persons, than how to
tell what is healthy and what diseased. This, I
imagine, is all that they know but to tell whether:
health itself is to be dreaded by anyone rather than

sickness, —
do you suppose. Laches, that this is
within a doctor's knowledge ? Do you not think
that for many it is better that they should never
arise from their bed of sickness ? Pray tell me, do
you say that in every case it is better to Uve ? Is
itnot often preferable to be dead ?
LACH. I do think that is so.
NIC. And do you think that the same things are
to be dreaded by those who were better dead, as by
those who had better Uve ?
LACH. No, I do not.
NIC Well, do you attribute the judgement of this
matter to doctors or to any other skilled worker
except him who has knowledge of what is to be
dreaded and what is not the man whom I call
courageous ?
soc. Do you comprehend his meaning, Laches ?
63
PLATO
E AA. "Eyojye, on ye rovs [xdvTets KaXeZ tovs
dvSpelovs' Ti? yap 817 aAAo? etaerai oto) d{xeivov
l,fjv ri redvdvai; Kairoi av, c5 Nt/fta, TTorepov ofjio-
Xoyels p-avris etvat 7) ovre fidvTis ovre dvBpeio?;

Nl. Tt Sat; av otei
fjbdvTei, irpocrfjKei, to. Seivd
yiyvcoaKeiv rd dappaXea;
/cat
AA. "Eycoyc tlvl yap aAAo);

NI. *"Qt iyd) Xeyo) ttoXv fxdXXov, c5 jSeArtcrre-
errei ixdvriv ye rd crrjfxela fxovov Set yiyvaxxKeiv tojv

eaofxevcov, etre ro) ddvaros etre voaos etre dtToôXri
196 XPVH'^'^^^ eorat, etre rt/oy etre •^rra iq TToXefxov
T] /cat (iAAtjs" tlvos dy covlas' o re Se rtp dfieivov
Tovrcov 1} TTaOelv r^ pbrj Tiadelv, ri jxdXXov [lavTei
TTpocrqKet KpZvai 7) dXXo) ortpovv;
AA. 'AAA' eyd) rovTOV ov /jLavddvo), co Sco/c/oare?,
Tt ôvXerai Xeyeiv ovre ydp fidvTiv ovre larpov

ovre dXXov ovBeva hrjXol ovriva Xeyei rov dvhpelov,
el jxrj el deov riva XeyeL avrov etvat. efxai fiev
B ovv (f)aLverat, Nt/cta? ovk edeXeiv yevvaicos ofioXoyelv

on ovSev Xeyei, dXXd crrpe(f)erai dvco /cat Kdrw
eTnKpvTrrofjievos, r'^v avrov aTTopiav. Kairoi Kav
rjfiels oXoi re rjpiev dpri eyoi re /cat av rotavra
arpe(f)eadat,, el eôvXo/xeda fir) SoKetv evavria rjfxXv
avrots Xeyeiv. el p,ev ovv ev hLKaarrjpicp rjfXLV
01 Xoyot ricrav, etx^v dv riva Xoyov ravra TTOielv

vvv Se Tt dv ns ev awovaia roiaSe fidrrjv Kevolg
XoyoLS avros avrov Koapuol;

2n. Oi)Sej/ ouS' e/xot SoKet, w Aa^T^j* oAA
64
LACHES
LACH. I do it seems to be the seers whom he
:
calls the courageous for who else can know for

:
which of us it is better to be aUve than dead ? And

yet, Nicias, do you avow yourself to be a seer, or to
be neither a seer nor courageous ?
NIC. What Is it now a seer, think you, who has
!
the gift of judging what is to be dreaded and what

to be dared ?
LACH. Thatis my view who else could it be ?

:
NIC. rather the man of whom I speak, my

Much
dear sir for the seer's business is to judge only the
:
signs of what is yet to come whether a man is to —

meet with death or disease or loss of property, or
victory or defeat in war or some other contest but ;
what is better among these things for a man to

suflFer or avoid suffering, can surely be no more
for a seer to decide than for anyone else in the
world.
LACH. Well, I fail to follow him, Socrates, or to
see what he is driving at for he points out that
;
neither a seer nor a doctor nor anybody else is the

man he refers to as the courageous, unless perchance
he means it is some god. Now it appears to me that
Nicias is unwilling to admit honestly that he has no
meaning at all, but dodges this way and that in the
hope of conceahng his own perplexity. Why, you
and I could have dodged in the same way just now,
if we wished to avoid the appearance of contra-
dicting ourselves. Of course, if we were arguing
in a law-court, there would be some reason for
so doing but here, in a meeting like this of ours,
;
why waste time in adorning oneself with empty

words ?
soc. I agree that it is out of place. Laches : but let
65
PLATO
C opconev fj,rj Ntîas' oteral rt Xeyeiv kol ov Xoyov
€V€Ka ravra Xeyei,. avrov ovv aaîarepov ttvOco-
fieda TL TTore voel' Kal idv rt (f)aiv'r]rai Xeycov,
avyxioprjaojJieOa, el 8e pb-q, StSdôpev.
AA. 2u TOLVVV, a> TiCOKpares, et ôvXei irvvOdve-
aQai, TTVvddvov iycb 8' 'iacDS LKavaJs Trevvcrpai,.
2n. AAA ovSev pLe KcoXvec Koivrj yap ear ai rj
TTVcrris vnep epuov re Kal aov.
AA. Yidvv puev ovv.
2n. Aeye St^ pot,, cb Ntwi'a, pdXXov S' rjptv koi-
vovpeda yap eycL re /cat AdxrjS rov Xoyov rrju
I) dvhpeiav e7TLar-^p.r)v <f)7js Setvoiv re /cat dappaXecov
elvat;
NI. "Eycuye.
2n. Tovro Se ov -navros Srj elvai, dvSpos yvdJvat,
OTTore ye p.'qre larpog p'qre pdvris avro yvcoaerai
pr)Se dvSpeXos earai, edv prj avrrjv ravrrjv rrjv
eTnariqpirjV TrpoaXa^rj' ov)( ovrcog eXeyes;
NI. Ovrco pev ovv.
2n. Kara rr^v TrapoLpiav dpa ra> ovn ovk av Trdaa
5s yvoLT) oj)S' av dvSpeta yevoiro.
NI. Ov pLOt SoKeZ.
E 2fl. AiyAov Sij, c5 Ni/ci'a, oTt ovSe rrjv K-poppvco-
viav vv TTiareveis av ye dvhpeiav yeyovevai. rovro
Se Xeyco ov Trai^cov, aXX dvayKaiov otpai ro) ravra
Xeyovri prjhevog drjpiov dnoSexeadai dvSpelav, rj
avyxoipeZv Orjpiov n ovrco aocjyov elvat, ware a
oXiyoL dvdpa)7T(x)v laaai Sta ro ^âAcTra efi'at yvcovat,
ravra Xeovra rj TrdpSaXiv tj riva Kdirpov ^dvai elSe-
^ The fierce monster slain by Theseus in the region be-

tween Corinth and Megara before he became the hero of
Attica.
66
—
LACHES
us see perhaps Nicias thinks he does mean some-
:
thing, andis not talking just for the sake of talking.
So let us ask him to explain more clearly what is in

his mind and if we find that he means something,
;
we will agree with him ; if not, we will instruct him.

LACH. Then, Socrates, if you would like to ask him,
please do so I daresay I have done enough asking.
:
soc. Well, I see no objection, since the question

will be on behalf of us both.
LACH. Very well, then.
soc. Now tell me, Nicias, or rather, tell us —for
Laches and I are sharing the argument between us
do you say that courage is knowledge of what is to
be dreaded or dared ?
NIC I do.
soc. And that it is not every man that knows it,
since neither a doctor nor a seer can know it, and
cannot be courageous unless he add this particular
knowledge to his own ? This was your statement,
was it not ?
NIC. Yes, it was.
soc. And so in fact this is not a thing which, as
the proverb says, " any pig would know " and thus
;
a pig cannot be courageous.

NIC I think not.
soc. Indeed it is obvious, Nicias, that you at least
do not believe that even the Crommyonian sow ^
could have been courageous. I say this not in jest,
but because I conceive it is necessary for him who
states this theory to refuse courage to any wild
beast, or else to admit that a beast like a lion or a
leopard or even a boar is so wise as to know what
only a few men know because it is so hard to per-
ceive. Why, he who subscribes to your account of
67
.
PLATO
vai* aAA avdyKf] ofxoicos Xeovra Kat eXa<f)ov Kal
ravpov Kat, TndrjKov Trpos avBpeiav <f>dvaL 7T€<f>vKevai
Tov Tide/jLevov dvhpeiav rovd^ 07T€p av rldeaai.
197 AA. Nrj Tovs Oeovs, koL €v ye Aeyets", c5 JliJOKpares.
Kal ripuv (hs aXiqda)? tovto OLTTOKpLvai, cb Nt/cta,
TTorepov ao(f>(x)T€pa cf>rjg rjfiojv ravra elvai rd drjpia,
a TTavreg ofjioXoyovfiev dvSpeia elvat, ri Trdaiv evav-
TiovfjLevos roXjjias firjSe dvSpela avrd KoXeZv;
Nl. Oi) ydp Ti, Jj Ad^r)?, eycoye dvSpeta KaXdj
ovre drjpia ovre dXXo ovhkv ro Ta Seim vtto dvoias
fiT] (jjoôvjjLevov, dAA' d(f)oôv Kal fxcopov ^ Kal rd
g TratSta Trdvra ot'ei jxe dvSpela KaXeZv, a 8t' dvotav
ovSev heSoLKev; aXX olfiai, ro dif)oôv Kal to
dvSpelov ov ravTov icmv. iyd) Se dvSpeiag puev
Kal TTpofiTjdlag ttovv rialv oXiyois ot/xat p,erelvaL,
dpaavTTqros Se /cat ToXpi-qs Kal rov d(f)6ôv p,erd
dTTpopLTjOias Trdvv ttoXXoZs Kal dvSpcov Kal yvvaiKcov
Kal TraiScov /cat drjpicov. ravr' ovv a crv KaXels
dvSpela Kat ol ttoXXoL, iyd> Opaaea KaXw, dvSpela
C Se Ta (f>p6vLpia Trepl Sv Xeyoj.
AA. Qeaaai, cL HcoKpaTes, co? cS oSe eaurw
St^, (hs oterat, Koap,€L rco Xoycp' ovs Se 7rdvT€s
ofioXoyovaiv dvBpeiovs clvai, tovtovs aTToarepeZv

€7TL)(€Lp€L TaVTrjS TTJg rLp,T]S.
Nl OvKovv ae ye,^ cL Adxr)?, oAAa ddppet <f>iqpX ydp
.
•
ae etvai ao(l>6v, Kal AdpLa^dv ye, etVep ecrre av'Spetot,

Kal dXXovs ye crvx^'ous ' Adrjvauov
AA. OvSev ipctj TTpos ravra, excov etVetv, Iva
fjLT) fie (f)fjg U)S dXrjOdJs Al^covea etvai.
^ (yi ye papyr. Oxyr. : h/brye siss.
^ A deme or district of Attica, noted for the abusive

wit of its people.
68
!
LACHES
courage must needs agree that a lion, a stag, a bull,
and a monkey have all an equal share of courage in
their nature.
LACH. Heavens, Socrates, how admirably you argue
Now answer us sincerely, Nicias, and say whether
those animals, which we all admit to be covirageous,
are wiser than we are or whether you dare, in
;
contradiction of ever}'one else, describe them as not

even courageous.
NIC. No, Laches, I do not describe animals, or
anything else that from thoughtlessness has no fear
of the dreadful, as courageous, but rather as fearless
and foolish. Or do you suppose I describe all
children as courageous, that have no fear because
they are thoughtless I rather hold that the fearless
.''
and the courageous are not the same thing. In my

opinion very few people are endowed with courage
and forethought, while rashness, boldness, and fear-
lessness, with no forethought to guide it, are found
in a great number of men, women, children, and
animals. So you see, the acts that you and most
people call courageous, I call rash, and it is the
prudent acts which I speak of that are courageous.
LACH. Mark you, Socrates, how finely, as he
fancies, my friend decks liimself out ^\^th his
words ! And how he attempts to deprive of the
distinction of courage those whom everyone admits
to be courageous !
NIC. I am not referring to you. Laches, so do not

be frightened for I grant that you, and Lamachus
:
also, are wise, since you are courageous, and I say

the same of numerous other Athenians.
LACH. I ^\-ill not say what I could say in answer
to that, lest you call me a true son of Aexone.^
69
;
PLATO
D Sn. MrjSe ye eiTrrjS, cS Adxris' koI yap /jloi
So/cets" ovhe [p-'fjY jjadrjadaL on ravT'qv ttjv ao^lav

irapa Aa/xojiôs' rov rjfxerepov eraipov TrapelXrjcfiev, o
he AdfMCov Tcp TlpoBLKCp TToXXd 7TXr](nd^€L, OS ^rj
SoK€L rojp ao(j>i.ar<jbv KoXXiara rd Toiavra ovofiara
Statpelv.
AA. Kat yap TrpeTrei, oj HcoKpares, (Jo<f>Larfj ra
TOLavra [xdXXov KOfjufjeveadai 7J dvSpl ov rj ttoXis
dîoL avrrjs TrpoLcrrdvat,.
E 2n. YlpeTTei p,€v ttov/ c5 /xa/capie, rcbv [xeyLarcov
TTpoararovvri p,€yLarr]s (ftpoviâecDS fxerexî-v' So/cet
he fjioi. NiKtas d^Los elvai eTTicrKetfjecos , ottol iroTe
^XeiTcov Tovvofia tovto rCdrjaL rrjv dvhpeiav.
AA. Auto? tolvvv aKonei, co HcoKpareS'
2fl. Tovto pêXXco TTOteTv, tS dpiare- firj fxevroi
OLOV fxe dcfiTjaeLv ae rrjs Kocvcovlas rov Xoyov, oAAa

Trpoaex^ rov vovv /cat avaKOTrei ra Xeyopueva,
AA. Tavra 8r] earco, el SoKei XPW^'"
2n. 'AAAa SoKel. ai) 8e, Ni/ct'a, Xeye -qpt-lv TrdXiv
198 ^^ ^PXl^' otcr^' on ttjv dvhpeiav /car' dpxds rov
Xoyov ecTKOTTovpêv d)S pepos dperrjs OKOTTovvres
Nl. Wdvv ye.
sn. OvKovv /cat ai) tovto aTreKpivco d)S popiov,
ovTCov Br] /cat ctAAojt' pepcov, d avpuravTa apeT-q
KCKXrjTai;
Ni. yap ov;
IldJs
2fi. 'A/a'ovv drrep iyd> /cat ov ravra Xeyeig; eyd)
he KaXd) TTpos dvhpela aw(f>poavvr)v /cat hiKaiocrwrjV
/cat aAA' aVra rotaura. ov /cat av;
^ /XT] om. papyr. Oxyr.
^ TTov Stob. : Toi Mss.
1
Of. 190 c.
70
I>ACHES
No, say nothing, Laches

80C. for in fact you
:
seem me to have failed to perceive that he has

to
acquired his wisdom from Damon, our good friend ;
and Damon constantly associates with Prodicus, who

is supposed to be the cleverest of the sophists at
distinguishing terms like these.

LACH. Yes, for it is more suitable, Socrates, for a
sophist to make a show of such refinements than for
a man whom the State thinks worthy to govern her.
soc. Indeed it is suitable, I amiable
presume, my
friend, for a man government
in the highest seat of
to be gifted with the highest degree of wisdom.
But it seems to me that Nicias is worthy of further
attention, so that we may learn in what connexion
he uses this word " courage."
LACH. Then attend to him yourself, Socrates.
soc. That is what I propose to do, my good sir :
still, you are not to think that I will release you
from your due share of the argument. No, you must

put your mind to it and join in weighing well what
is said.
LACH. Well, so be it, if you think that I ought.
soc. Indeed I do. Now, Nicias, please go back to
the beginning ^ and answer us you know we started
:
our discussion by considering courage as a part of

virtue ?
NIC. Quite so.
soc. And you
joined in this answer, that it is —
a part, there being also other parts, which taken all
together have received the name of virtue ?
NIC Why, of course.
soc. Now, do you mean the same as I do by these ?
Besides courage, I refer to temperance, justice, and
other similar qualities. And you also, do you not ?
71
PLATO
B Nl. Udvv fjLev ovv.
2n. "Epê St]' ravra fiev yap ofioXoyovfxev,
rrepl Be rcjv heivcLv /cat dappaXecov CTKei/fcu/zeâ,
OTTCOS fMTj cri) pLev aAA' arra arjyfj, "qpels Se oAAa.
pb€V ovv "^peis r)yovpeda, (J>pdaopev croi* cry Be av
pLT] opoXoyfjs, StSafet?. 'qyovpeda B* rjpelg Beiva
pLev eti'ai a /cat Beos Trapexet, BappaXea Be d p,rj
Beos TTapeêL' Beos Be Trapeêt ov rd yeyovora
ovBe rd irapovra rcov KaKcov, dXXd rd TrpoaSoKO)-
pLeva' Beos ydp elvai TrpoaBoKtav p,eXXovTOS /ca/cou"
T] ovx ovTco /cat avvBoK€i,^ CO Adx^js;
C AA. Udvv ye a(f)6Bpa, S TicoKpares.
2n. To. piev YjpeTepa tolvvv, c5 Ni/cta, d/couei?,
oTt pev rd peXXovra KaKd </)apev etvai,
Setva
dappaXea Be rd prj /ca/ca ^ dyadd peXXovra' av
Be ravrj) t) aAA^y Trepi rovrcov Xeyeis;
Ni. Tavrr^ eycoye.
2n. Tovrcov Be ye rrjv iTnarT]pLT]V dvBpeiav Trpoa-
ayopevets ;
NI. JôpiBfj ye.
2n. "Ert Brj rd rplrov OKeijscjpeBa el avvBoKet
aoL re /cat rjpbtv.
D NI. To TTolov Bt] rovro;

2n. 'Eyca Si] <f)pdaoj. So/cet ydp Brj epoi re
Kal ripBe, rrepl ocrcovearlv eTTiar-^pr), ovk uAAt^
piev eti/at Trepl yeyovoros elBevai ottt] yeyovev,
dXXr] Be TTepl yiyvopevcov ottt) yiyverai, dXXr) Be
orrrj dv /caAAtora yevotro /cat yevqaerat rd p,rj7TCO
yeyovos, dXX rj avr-q. olov Trepl rd vycetvdv els

aTTavras rovs ;^/ooroi'S' ovk dXXr] ris '^ larpiKrj,
pLiaovaa, e(ôpS. /cat yiyvopeva /cat yeyovora Kal
1 avvSoKil Burnet : ai doKei, doKci Kal aii mss.
72
LACHES
NIC. Certainly I do.
soc. So much for that ; thus far we agree but
:
let us pass on to what is to be dreaded and what to

be dared, and make sure that you and we do not
take two different views of these. Let me tell you our
view of them, and if you do not agree with it, you
shall instruct us. We hold that the dreadful are
things that cause fear, and the safely ventured are
those that do not and fear is caused not by past
;
or present, but by expected evils for fear is ex-

:
pectation of coming evil. You are of the same mind

with us in this, are you not, Laches ?
LACH. Yes, entirely so, Socrates.
soc. So there you have our view, Nicias, that—
coming evils are to be dreaded, and things not evil,
or good things, that are to come are to be safely
dared. Would you describe them in this way, or in
some other ?
NIC. I would describe them in this way.
soc. And the knowledge of these things is what
you term courage ?
NIC. Precisely.
soc. There is still a third point on which we must
see if you are in agreement with us.
NIC. What point is that ?
SOC. I will tell you. seems to your friend and

It
me that, to take the various subjects of knowledge,
there is not one knowledge of how a thing has
happened in the past, another of how things are
happening in the present, and another of how a
thing that has not yet happened might or will
happen most favourably in the future, but it is the
same knowledge throughout. For example, in the
case of health, it is medicine always and alone that
73
PLATO
E yevTjaofieva ottt) yevqaerai' /cat Trepl ra e/c rrjs
yrjs av <f>v6fjL€va rj yecopyCa cbaavrcos ^X^^' '^°-^
hrjTTOV TO. Trepi tov ttoXc/xov avrol av iiaprvprjuaire

on iq arpaT'qyia KaXXiara 7Tpop,rjdeLrai, rd re aAAa
Kai TTCpi, TO fxeXXov eaeadai, ovhk rfj [xavTLKfj oterai
ScLU V7Trjp€T€LV ttAAo. dpx^tv, tt)? elSvia kolXXlov to.
199 TTepL TOV TToXefiov Kal yiyvofieva /cai yevqaofieva'

/cat d vofxos ovTOj rdrrei, jxr] tov fxavTiv tov oTpa-
TTjyov a,px€LV, dXXd tov OTpaTTjyov tov pbdvTecos.
(f>'i^(jOfi€v TavTa, (h Adxr]S;
AA. ^rjaofjbev.
2n, Tt 8e; ov r^puv, u) Nt/cta, avp,<j>r]? irepl tcov
avTOJV TTjv avTTjV iTTLcrT-qfjLrjv /cat eaofjuevcov /cat
yLyvop,€vwv Kal yeyovoTOJV irrateLv;

Ni. "Eycoye- So/cet ydp fxot, ovtcos, c5 HiOKpaTeg.
2n. OvKovv, CO dpiGTe, /cat ij dvhpeia tcov Setvwv
B iinaTrjfjir} eaTi Kal dappaXewv, a>? <f>'^S' rj ydp;
NI. Nat.
2fl. To, 8e Seiva (LpioXoyrjTat Kal ra OappaXea to.
[xev fxeXXovTa dyaOd, to. Se fieXXovTa /ca/ca elvai.

NI. Hdvv ye.
2n. 'H 8e y' avTT) eTTLGTi^fir) tcov avTcbv /cat
fieXXovTcov Kal TrdvTcos ixovTwv etvai.

NI. "Eart TOVTa.
Sn. Oy iiovov dpa tcjv hetvcov /cat dappaXecov
q dvSpeta i7naTi]iMrj ianv ov ydp fieXXovTOiv
fiovov TTepi TCOV dyada>v re /cat KaKcov eTratei, oAAa
C /cat yiyvofjievcov Kal yeyovoTojv Kal rrdvTcos ixdvTcov,
warrep at oAAat iTnaTrjfiai.
74
LACHES
surveys present, past, and future processes alike ;
and farming is in the same position as regards the
productions of the earth. And in matters of war I
am sure you yourselves will bear me out when I say
that here generalship makes the best forecasts on the
whole, and particularly of future results, and is the
mistress rather than the servant of the seer's art,
because it knows better what is happening or about
to happen in the operations of war whence the law
;
ordains that the general shall give orders to the seer,

and not the seer to the general. May we say this,
Laches ?
LACH. We may.
soc. Well now, do you agree with us, Nicias, that
the same knowledge has comprehension of the same
things, whether future, present, or past ?
NIC. I do, for that is my own opinion, Socrates.
soc. And courage, my good friend, is knowledge
of what is to be dreaded and dared, as you say, do
you not ?
Mc. Yes.
soc. And things to be dreaded and things to be
dared have been admitted to be either future goods
or future evils ?
NIC. Certainly.
soc. And the same knowledge is concerned with
the same things, whether in the future or in any
particular stage ?
NIC. That is so.
soc. Then courage knowledge not merely of
is
what is and what dared, for it com-
to be dreaded
prehends goods and evils not merely in the future,
but also in the present and the past and in any stage,
like the other kinds of knowledge.
75
;
PLATO
Ni. "Eoiwe ye.
2n. Me/Jos' apa avSpetas '^/J-'iv, aj NtKta, drr-
CKpivoj cr)(eh6v ri rpirov Kairoi "qixel? qpcoTa>^€v
6Xr)v avSpeiav o tl etr). /cat vvv Srj, cus" eoiKe, Kara
Tov aov Xoyov ov fiovov SeLvcov re /cat dappaXecov
eTnaTTjfJbrj rj avSpeia eariv, aAAa ax^ôv ri, rj Trepl
iravrwv ayaOwv re /cat KaKcov /cat ttolvtcos e)(ovr(x}v,

D (hs vvv a5 6 aos Xoyos, dvSpeia dv elr)' ovtcjs aS
fierarWeaOai rj ttojs Aeyets", to Ni/cia;
NI. "E/iotye So/cet, cS HdS/cpares'.
5fl. Ao/c€t ow crot, 60 Saifiovic, dTToXeiveiv dv ti
o roLovTos dperrjg, elirep elheirj rd re dyaâ Trdvra
/cat TTavraTTaaLV cos ytyverai Kal yevijaerai /cat
yiyove, /cat to. /ca/ca (haavrcos; /cat tovtov oici ov

ot) evSca eivat crcij(f>po<Jvvrjg iq St/catocn/j/Ty? t6 /cat
oaLOTTjTos, CO ye fjiovco TrpoarjKei Kal irepl deovs

E /cat Trept dvdpiorrovs eêvXaêladal re to. Setva /cat
ra jLtiy, /cat rdya^d TTopiêadai, iTTLarafievo) dp6a>s

TTpoaofitXetv
NI. Aeyetv rt ciS HcvKpareg p-oi, So/cets-.
Sfl. Oi)/c dpa, c5 Nt/cta, pLopiov dpeTrjs dv cltj to

vvv aoL Xeyofievov, dXXd avfnraaa dperq.
NI. "Eot/cev.
2n. Kat jLtT^v €(f)aiJiev ye ttji' dv8/)etW p,6piov elvai

ev rcov rijs dperrjs.
NI. "Ecfiafiev yap.
211. To Se ye vw Aeyo/xevov ov âtverai.
NI. Ou/C €OLK€V.
76
LACHES
NIC. Apparently.
soc. So the answer that you gave us, Nicias, covers
only about a third part of courage whereas our;
question was of what courage is as a whole. And

now it appears, on your own showing, that courage
is knowledge not merely of what is to be dreaded
and what dared, but practically a knowledge con-
cerning all goods and evils at every stage such is ;
your present account of what courage must be.

VVhat do you say to this new version, Nicias ?
NIC. I accept it, Socrates.
soc. do you think, my excellent friend, there
Now
could be anything wanting to the \'irtue of a man
who knew all good things, and all about their pro-
duction in the present, the future, and the past,
and all about evil things likewise ? Do you suppose
that such a man could be lacking in temperance,
or justice, and holiness, when he alone has the gift
of taking due precaution, in his deaUngs with gods
and men, as regards what is to be dreaded and
what is not, and of procuring good things, owing
to his knowledge of the right behaviour towards
them ?
NIC. I think, Socrates, there is something in what

you say.
soc. Hence what you now describe, Nicias, will be
not a part but the whole of virtue.
NIC. Apparently.
soc. But, you know, we said that courage is one
of the parts of virtue.
NIC. Yes, we did.
soc. And what we now describe is seen to be
diflferent.
NIC. So it seems.
VOL. IV D 77
PLATO
2n. OvK apa 7]vp-qKaix€v, c5 Ni/ct'a, avSpeta o ri
ear IV.
Nl. Ov <f>aLv6fj,€6a.
AA. Kat fji7]v eycoye, o) ^lAe Ntarta, aj/îyv (re
200 evprjaeiv, eVetSi^ e/xou Karecfjpovqaas Saj/cparei

arroKpivapLevov ttolvv Stj fieydXrjv eATrtSa er\;oj^, to?
T^ TTapa Tov AdficDvos ao(j)ia avrrjv dvevpijaeLS.
Nl. EiJ ye, w Adxris, on ovSeu otet av en Trpdyixa

elvai, on avros dpn ecjidvrjs dvSpetas Trepi ovhev
clBcos, dAA' et /cat iyoj erepos tolovtos dvaâvrj-
aofiai, TTpos TOVTO /SAerreis", Kal ovBev en hioiaei,
dig eoiKe, aol fxer ifiov jx-qhev elSevai (Lv TTpoarjKei
eTTLar-qiJL-qv exeiv dvSpl olopêvcp n elvai. av fxev
B ovv fiot SoKeXs d)s dXrjdws dvdpcoTretov Trpa^fia
ipydêadai, ovSev irpos avrov ^Xeireiv aAAa irpos
Tovs dXXovs' iyd) 8' olpbai efxol Trepl Sv eXeyofxev
vvv re eTTiet/coj? ecprjadaL, Kal et n avrojv pcrj iKavcos
eipiqraL, varepov eTTOvopdcoaeadai /cat p,erd Ad-
fxcovos, ov av ttov otet KarayeXav, /cat ravra
ouSe ISojv TTOJTTore tov Aap,a)va, Kal /xer' dXXcov
Kal erreihav êâtcLaco/jLau avrd, StSaô) /cat ae,
C /cat ov (f>dovrjaoi' So/cet? ydp /xoi Kal //.oAa a(f)68pa
Setadai fxaOelv.
AA. TiO(j)6s ydp rot av et, w Nt/ci'a. aAA'
oficos eyd) AvaijJidxip rcpSe Kat MeATjaig, avpiôv-
Xevo), ae fxev Kal ijjbe Trepl rrjs TratSetas" tcov veavi-
OKOiV pât/aetv eav, HcoKpdTr) Se tovtovl, onep e^

dpXT]S eXeyov, fxr] d^tevai' el Se /cat e/ioi ev rjXiKca
"qaav oi rralSes, ravrd dv ravr eiroiovv.
78
LACHES
soc. Thus we have failed to discover, Nicias, what
courage really is.
NIC. Evidently.
LACH. And I, in fact, supposed, my dear Nicias,
that you were going to discover it, when you showed
such contempt for the answers I made to Socrates :
indeed I had very great hopes that the wisdom you

derived from Damon would avail you for the dis-
covery.
NIC. That is all very fine. Laches you think you
;
can now make light of the fact that you were your-
selfshown just now to know nothing about courage ;
when my turn comes to be shown up in the same light,

that is all you care, and now it will not matter to
you at all, it seems, if I share your ignorance of things
whereof any self-respecting man ought to have know-
ledge. You really strike me, indeed, as following the
average man's practice of keeping an eye on others
rather than on oneself but I fancy that for the
:
present I have said as much as could be expected

on the subject of our discussion, and that later on
I must make good any defects in my statement upon
it with the help of Damon —
whom I know you choose
to ridicule, and that without ever having seen the
—
actual Damon and with others' help besides. And
when I have settled the matter I will enlighten you,
in no grudging spirit :for I think you are in very
great need of instruction.
LACH. You are a man of wisdom, I know, Nicias.
But still I advise Lysimachus here and Melesias to
dismiss you and me, and to retain our friend Socrates
as I said at first, for the education of your boys :
were my own sons old enough, I should do the same

thing too.
79
I
;
PLATO
Nl. Taura fiev Kayoj cruy;âj/!)ca, iavnep ideXr]
HoiKparrjs rdv fjietpaKLCov err Lp,eXeZad at, fJirjSeva
D dXXov ^TjreXv eTret kolv eyoj tov NiK'qpaTOV tovtco
rjSLcrra eTrtrpeTroi/it, oStos' aAAa yap
el eOeXot
aAAou? eKaaroTe avvianqaiv , orav tl avrco rrepl
/A06
Tovrov fJivqaOcb, avrog Se ovk ideXei. dAA' opa, at
AfCTt/xapê, et Tl aov dv /xaXXov inraKovoL HcoKpdrrjs-
AT. AiKaiov ye rot,, w Ni/cta, inel /cat e'ycu tovtco
TToAAa dv eOeXijaaLfiL TToieZv, d ovk dv aAAot? irdvv
TtoXXolg edeXoLpii. ttcjs ovv <f)r}S, (L l^wKpares
VTraKOvarj tl /cat avfiTTpodvjji'qcrr) d)S êXTiaTOLs
yeveaO at to is /Ltetpa/ctot?;
E 2n. Kat yap dv Seivov elrj, c5 Avcri/JLaxe, tovto

ye, fxrj edeXeiv tco av/jLTrpoOvfielaOai (Lg êXrlara)
yeveadai. el puev ovv ev Toig StaAoyot? rot? aprt
eyd) p,ev e^dvqv elScos, TcoSe Se fir] elSoTe, St/catov'
dv -^v ep,e fMaXicrra inl Tovro to epyov rrapaKaXelv
vvv 8', o/xoiojs" yap TTavTeg ev aTTopia eyevofieda'
Tl ovv dv Tig rj/jicov Tivd TrpoaipoiTO ; ejxoi jxev ovv
St] avTO) hoKel ovheva' aXX eTreihrj raura ovtcos
201 ^X^î OKei/jaaOe dv rt Bo^co avpôvXeveiv vfxiv.

eyd) ydp (j>rjixL xp^vai, c5 dvSpes ovSeig ydp eK(f)Opos —
—
Xoyos KOivfj ndvTas rjp.ds ^rjTeZv /xaAtara piev rjfiiv
avTois SiSdaKaXov dis dpioTov heojxeda ydp — —
eveiTa /cat tols /Ltetpa/ct'ots", fi-QTe p^pTy/xarcov <^€tSo-
fxevovs /XTjre aAAou p,rjhev6s' edv Se i^/xa? avTovg
ex'^f'V, d)s vvv exofxev, ov crujxôvXevoi. el Se tis
rjpidJv KaTayeXdaeTai, oti rryAt/cotSe ovTes els StSa-
B GKdXcov dîovfjiev (f>oiTav, tov "Op-ripov SoKeX jjloi

Xp'TJvai Trpo^dXXeadai, os €(f)rj ovk dyadr]v ett'at
aiScD K€XP'r]P'^vcp dvSpt irapeivai. /cat rjfjieis odv
» Od. xvii. 347.
80
LACHES
NIC. For my part I agree ; if Socrates ^Nnll consent
to take charge of these young people. I vnM seek for
no one else. I should be only too glad to entrust
him -with Niceratiis, if he should consent but when :
I begin to mention the matter to him, he always

recommends other men to me and refuses himself.
Just see, Lysimachus, if Socrates will give you a
more favourable hearing.
LYS. It is only right that he should, Nicias, for
indeed I would be willing to do many things for
him which I would not do for a great many others.
Well, what do you say, Socrates ? Will you comply,
and lend your endeavours for the highest improve-
ment of these boys ?
soc. \Miy, how strange it would be, Lysimachus,
to refuse to lend one's endeavours for the highest
improvement of anybody Now if in the debates
!
that we have just held I had been found to know

what our two friends did not know, it would be right
to make a point of inviting me to take up this work :
but as it is, we have all got into the same difficulty,
so why should one of us be preferred to another ?
In my ovvn opinion, none of us should ; and this
being so, perhaps you vvill allow me to give you a
piece of advice. I tell you, gentlemen and this is —
—
confidential that we ought all alike to seek out
the best teacher we can find, firet for ourselves for —
—
we need one and then for our boys, sparing neither
expense nor anything else we can do but to leave :
ourselves as we now are, this I do not advise. And

if anyone makes fun of us for seeing fit to go to
school at our time of life, I think we should appeal
to Homer, who said that " shame is no good mate
for a needy man." ^ So let us not mind what any-
81
PLATO
eacravre? pât'/aeti' et rt? rt ipel, Koivfj rjficov avrwv
Kat Twv ybeipaKLOiV eTrifieXeiav TTOLrjcrcofiida.
AT. 'E/xot /xev dpeaKei, d) TiCoKpares, a Ae'yei?'
fcai ideXco, oacoTvep yepairaros et/xt, roaovrcp
TTpodv/jLoraTa jxavdaveLV fxera riJbv veaviaKcav . dAAa
C /-toi ouTcucrt 7TOL7](Tov avpiov eojdev a.(f)LKOv ot/caSe,
/cat /xt) aAAtos" '7TOLT]crrjs, tva jSouAeucrco/xeâ Trept
auTcDv Toi^cuv TO Se vw etvat t))v avvovaiav Sia-
AucrcD/Ltev.
2n. 'AAAa 7Ton7cra>, c5 AvaL/xax^, ravra, /cat 17^0)

Trapa ae avpiov, iav deos iOeXrj.
82
LACHES
one may say, but join together in arranging for our
own and the boys' tuition.
LYS. I gladly approve of your suggestion, Socrates ;
and as I the oldest, so I am the most eager to
am
have lessons with the young ones. Now this is what
I ask you to do : come to my house to-morrow at
daybreak be sure not to fail, and then we shall
;
consult on this very matter. For the present, let us

break up our meeting.
SCO, I will not fail, Lysimachus, to come to you
to-morrow, God wilUng.
88
PROTAGORAS
VOL. IV D 2 85
INTRODUCTION TO THE PROTAGORAS
The masterly powers of description, characteriza-
tion, rhetoric, and reasoning, which conspire in the
Protagoras to produce, with such apparent ease, one
rapid and luminous effect, have earned it a very high
— —
with some judges the highest place among Plato's
achievements in philosophic drama. After an intro-
ductory scene, in which the excitement of ardent
young spirits over the arrival of a great intellectual
personage leads quickly to the setting of the stage
for the main business of the plot, we are shown
Socrates in respectful but keenly critical contact
with the first and most eminent of the itinerant
professors of a new culture or enlightenment. On
the other side we see the old and celebrated teacher
displaying his various abilities with weight and
credit, but with limitations which increasingly
suggest that his light is waning before the fresh and
more searching flame of Socratic inquiry. The
drama is philosophic in the fullest sense, not merely
owing to this animated controversy and its develop-
—
ment of a great moral theme, the acquisition of
virtue, but because we are made to feel that behind
or above the actual human disputants are certain
principles and modes of thought, which hold a high
and shadowy debate, as it were, of their own in the
dimness of what is as yet unexamined and un-
explained. Of this larger argument the human
86
scene gives but fitful glimpses but in the end it
;
is suggested and impressed in sufficiently definite

outline to become the further object of our roused
and refined curiosity.
This dialogue is, indeed, a work of profoundly
suggestive art, and our first duty is to observe and
comprehend as clearly as may be the persons in the
play and the interaction of their salient thoughts
and feelings. Protagoras was the founder of a
popular culture which aimed at presenting the highest
lessons of the poets, thinkers, and artists of the
preceding age in a convenient form for the needs
—
of the rising generation of Greek statesmen, a form
also that should be marketable, for he invented the
trade of the professional educator, and was the first
to charge a regular fee for the wisdom or skill that
he imparted. His own chief accomplishment was
impressive declamation on moral and political
themes he was prone, as we find in this interview,
:
to a somewhat lengthy style of exposition, and

correspondingly loth to undergo the mental strain
of being cross-examined by Socrates. No attempt
is made here to tease or bait him. It is clear enough,
without the express statement made in the Republic
(x. 600), that he had attained a most honourable
position in Greece through his earnest zeal for
educational progress. But he did not stop to think
out the bases of his teaching ; and the immediate
interest of the dialogue consists largely in watching
the succession of strokes by which Socrates, a
younger and subtler advocate of the same cause,
'^
1 At the time of this meeting (just before the Pelopon-
nesian War, in 432 b.c.) Socrates would be 36 years old, and

AJcibiades 19.
87
exposes and undermines the fine but unsound
fabric of his fame.
In the stately myth (320-328) by wliich Protagoras
unfolds his theory of the origin of human society
and morals, Plato gives us a carefully wrought
imitation of the professor's favourite method and
style. It is an eloquent substantiation of the
common -sense view that virtue can be taught;
and fidelity in characterization seems to have
prompted Plato to attribute to the old sophist
some principles which are more than ordinarily
enlightened. In particular we may notice his
account of the beginning of governments (322),
and his appeal for the curative and preventive use
of punishment (324). And later on, while he totters
defenceless under the force and acuteness of Socrates'
—
questions, we find him objecting and it was soon to
I
—
be Plato's own opinion that it is rash to regard all
pleasure as good (351). Plato, in fact, appears to
be more intent on exhibiting the impetuous energy
and superior skill with which Socrates could on
occasion upset an experienced teacher and famous
scholar, than on impressing us with the correctness of
this or that theory which the younger man may
snatch up and fling at the professor's head in the
momentary sport or heat of the contest. The ex-
planation which Socrates propounds of the poem of
Simonides (343-347) is obviously a mocking satire on
certain sophistic performances but he is no less
;
obviously serious, for the purpose in hand, when he

makes his statement on the relation of virtue to
pleasure. The unsatisfactory effect which this leaves
upon our minds must be referred to the main object
of the dialogue, which is to prove the power of the
88
—

new science of dialectic in disturbing our settled
habits of thought and in stimulating fresh inquiiy
into problems of the highest import to mankind.
Among the many minor interests attaching to
this vivid picture of the intellectual life of Athens
in the latter part of the fifth century, the appropriate
style given in each case to the utterances of Prot-
agoras, Prodicus, and Hippias deserves attention for
the evidence thus afforded of a dehberate cultivation
of prose-form at that time. Plato has left us a less
sympathetic but similarly interesting study of
Protagoras' manner of speech in his later work, the
Theaetetus.
The following brief outline of the discussion may

be useful :
I. 309 A-316 A. Socrates tells his (unnamed)

friend that he and Alcibiades have just been con-
versing with Protagoras, and describes how his
young friend Hippocrates had announced to him
the great sophist's arrival in Athens, and how, after
questioning Hippocrates on his design of learning
from the sophist, he proceeded with him to the
house of Callias, with whom Protagoras was staying.
They found there not only Protagoras but the
learned Hippias and Prodicus also, and many
followers and disciples who had assembled to hear
their discourses.
II. 316 A-320 c. Protagoras explains the purpose
of his teaching : he will educate Hippocrates in
politicsand citizenship. Socrates raises the question
whether virtue can be taught.
III. 320 c-328 D. Protagoras deUvers a char-
acteristic speech, in which he relates a fable of the
89
origin of man. It illustrates his doctrine that
virtue can be taught, both by individuals and by
the State.
IV. 328 D-334 c. Socrates cross - examines Prot-
agoras (1) Is each of the virtues a part of virtue,
:
or only a different name for the same thing ?

(2) Protagoras replies that the several virtues differ
like the parts of the face. (3) In answer to an ob-
jection from Socrates, Protagoras allows that justice
and holiness must be like each other. (4) Socrates
then urges that temperance and wisdom must
be the same, and would argue likewise of temper-
ance and justice but (5) Protagoras, impatient
;
of being questioned, reverts to his favourite

"
method of declamation on the notions of " good
and " beneficial."
V. 334 c-338 e. Socrates makes as if to go he :
will only stay if Protagoras will keep to the method

of question and answer. At the request of Callias,
Alcibiades, Critias, Prodicus and Hippias he agrees
to stay and be questioned by Protagoras, after
which Protagoras will be questioned by him.
VI. 338 E-347 A. Socrates is cross-examined by
Protagoras on the meaning of a poem of Simonides,
and tries to save the consistency of the poet, which
Protagoras impugns, by distinguishing between
" being good " and " becoming good " he also sug-
;
gests a peculiar significance of words in Ceos (the

native place of the poet and of Prodicus, whose
verbal learning he satirizes with some pedantic
nonsense). He then gives his own explanation of
the poem, which he holds to have been written to
refute a saying of Pittacus (an Ionian sage of the
latter part of the seventh century b.c.) that " it is
90
hard to be good " to become good, said the poet, is
:
hard ; to be good is impossible ; he looked for no

perfect virtue on earth.
VII. 347 A-360 E. Alcibiades and Callias prevail
on Protagoras, rather against his will, to be
questioned by Socrates as to whether wisdom, tem-
perance, courage, justice and hoUness are all the
same thing, or different parts of virtue. Protagoras
singles out courage as distinct from the rest. When
Socrates argues that it is the same as wisdom,
Protagoras objects to his reasoning, and Socrates
starts on a new line :Is not pleasure, viewed apart
from its consequences, the same as the good ? To
be overcome by pleasure is merely to choose the
less instead of the greater good, through ignorance ;
and pleasure being good, every action must be good

that has pleasure as its object. The coward who
will not fight when he ought is suffering from an
ignorant misconception of what lies before him, so
that courage must be knowledge.
VIII. 360 E-362 A. It is shown, in conclusion,
that Socrates and Protagoras have each been led
into a position opposite to that which they held at
the beginning : Socrates' identification of virtue
with knowledge brings him to the view that virtue
must be teachable, which he at first denied while
;
Protagoras, who held that it is teachable, now

declares that it is not knowledge, thus denying it
the sole means of being taught.
A good modern edition of the Protagoras is that

by J.Adam, Cambridge University Press, 1905.
91
.
npiiTAroPAS
[h 50*I2TAr ENAEIKTIKO2]
TA TOT AIAAOrOT nPOSfiHA

ETAIP02, 2nKPATH2, innoKPATH2, npnTAroPA2,
AAKIBIAAH2, KAAAIA2, KP1TIA2, nP0AIK02, inniA2
^'309 ^^* noêt', J) HiCJKpares, (j>aivrj; -q SryAa hr]
on aTTO KVVT]yeaiov rod Trepl rrjv AA/ciptaoou

wpav; Kal /xi^v /xot Kal 7Tpa)7]v ISovrt, KaXos /i.ev
€(/)aiv€TO avrjp en, avrjp pêvroi, cS Sdj/cpare?,

CO? y' ei^ ai^Tot? '>7)U.rv' elprjadai, Kal Trcoycovos r]8r)
VTroTTLHTrXdfjievos
2n. Etra Ti rovro; ov av fxevrot 'Opb-qpov

B eTTaiverrjs et, os €(f>r) )(apieardT'qv rj^-qv elvai
Tov VTTrjvqrov, rjv vvv 'AA/ct^taSr^S" ex^'»
ET. Tt ovv TO. vvv; ^ Tra/s' eKeivov (f)aivr};
Koi TTcos TTpos a€ 6 vcavlas Sta/cetrat;

2n. Eu, efxaiye eSoêv, ovx rjKiara Se /cat t^
vw r)p,€pa- Kal yap TroAAa virep i/xov €L7T€, ôtj-
du)v ifxol, Kol ovv Kal dpri an* eKeivov epxofiai.

droTTOV fievTOt ri aoi idcXo) eiTTelv napovTos yap
92
PROTAGORAS
[or sophists : AX arraignment]
CHARACTERS
A Frievd, Socrates, Hippocrates, Protagoras,
AlCIBIADES, CaLLIAS, CrITIAS, PrODICUS, HlPPIAS
FR. Where have you been now, Socrates ? Ah, but

of course you have been in chase of Alcibiades and his
youthful beauty Well, only the other day, as I
!
looked at him, I thought him still handsome as a

—
man for a man he is, Socrates, between you and
me, and with quite a growth of beard.
soc. And what of that ? Do you mean to say you
do not approve of Homer, ^ who said that youth has
highest grace in him whose beard is appearing, as
now in the case of Alcibiades ?
FR. Then how is the affair at present ? Have you
been with him just now ? And how is the young
man treating you ?
soc. Quite well, I considered, and especially so to-
day for he spoke a good deal on my side, supporting
:
—
me in a discussion in fact I have only just left him.
However, there is a strange thing I have to tell you :
1 Jliad, xxiv. 348.

93
PLATO
€K€LVov, ovT€ TTpooelxov Tov vovv, iveXavOavofiTjV
T€ avTov Oafjbd.
C ET. Kat TL av yeyovog eir) vepl ak KaKetvov

ToaovTov TTpdyfjua; ov yap StjTrov rivl koXXLovl
€V€TVX€S (xAAoj €v ye rfjSe rij ttoXcl.
5n. Kat TToXv ye.
ET. Ti <f>'ps; daTU) r) ievo);
2fl. SeVo).
ET. IloSaTTU);
2n. A^S-qptTj).
ET. Kat ovTco KaXos Tt? o êvos eSoê aoi
eivat, ojcrre rov KXetviov vleos KoXXicov aoL (f)a-
vrjvai;
2n. Ilais' 8 ov fxeXXei, w puaKapie, ro aocfxorarov
KoXXiov <f>aiveadaL;
ET. AAA' rj ao(f)(p TLVi rjixlv, c5 JlcoKpare?,
€vrvxd}V Trdpei;
J) 2fl. JjO(f)cordTa) p,ev ovv St^ttou rcov ye vvv, et
aoi hoKel ao<j)Ci}Taros elvai Ylpiorayopa's.
ET. *Q. ri Xeyeis; Tlpoirayopag eTTiSeST^fi'qKev;
2X1. TpirrjV ye rjSrj rjp.€pav.
ET. Kat aprt apa eKeivco avyyeyovcbs rjKeis;
310 2n. Udvv ye ttoAAo, /cat elnajv Kat aKOVcras.
ET. Tt oSv ov StT^yT^CTCo rjfjLLV TTjv ^vvovaiav,
ei p.rjue ri KcoXvei, Kaditôfxevog evravdi, iâva-
arrjaas rov nalSa rovrovi;
2n. Udvv fjLev o5v' /cat X^P'-^ 7^ etaojxai, eav
aKOVTjTe.
* The Friend had an attendant who was sitting by him,
94
PROTAGORAS
although he was present, I not merely paid him no
attention, but at times forgot him altogether.
FR. Why, what can have happened between you
and him ? Something serious For surely you did !
not find anyone else of greater beauty there, no, —

not in our city.
see. Yes, of far greater.
FR. What do you say ? One of our people, or a
foreigner ?
soc. A foreigner.
FR. Of what city ?
Abdera.
soc.
FR. And you found this foreigner so beautiful that
he appeared to you of greater beauty than the son
of Cleinias ?
soc. WTiy, my good sir, must not the wisest
appear more beautiful ?
FR. Do you mean it was some wise man that you
met just now ?
soc. Nay, rather the wisest of our generation, I

may tell you, if " wisest " is what you agree to call
Protagoras.
FR. Ah, what a piece of news Protagoras come !
to town !
soc. Yes, two days ago.

FR. And it was his company that you left just
now ?
soc. Yes, and a great deal I said to him, and he
to me.
FR. Then do let us hear your account of the con-
versation at once, if you are disengaged take my :
boy's place,^ and sit here.

soc. Very good indeed,
; I shall be obliged to
you, if you will listen.
95
;
PLATO
ET. Kat ixrjv Kol rjfji€LS aoi, iav AeyTy?.
2n. AittAt^ ai' €L-q dAA' ovv OLKOvere.
rj )(dpL^.
Trjs vvKTog ravrrjcri, eVi âOdog
TTapeXOovcrrjs
OpdpOV, 'iTTTTOKpdrrj^ 6 'ATToAAoSdjpou uio?, Oa-
auivos Se dSeAô?, rrjv Ovpav rrj âKr-qpia ttovv
B a(f)6Spa €Kpov€, /cat avro) dvecoê rt?,
iTreiSrj
€vdvg etcro) iêi Kal rfj (jicovfj fieya
€7r€Ly6p,€VOS,
Xeycov, 'Q, TicoKpare^, ^^V> ^ypi^yopas rj KadeuSei?
Kai eyo) rrjv <f>(x)V7]v yvovs avrov, iTTTTOKpdrrjg,
€<f>rjv, ovTOS' fMrj ri vecorepov dyyeXXcis; OvSev
y , rj o OS, €L fxij ayava ye. EjV av Aeyot?, tjv
8' eycL' ecrri 8e tl, /cat rod eveKa rrjvLKdSe dcf)LKov;
Upcorayopas, e<j>rj, rjKei, ards Trap* lp,oi. Ylpiprjv,

€(^rjv eyd)' av 8e dprt TreTTvaai; Ni^ rov's Oeovg,
Q €^rj, ecrnepas ye. /cat dpia i7Tnpr]Xa(f>-âas rov
aKL/JLTToSog CKadeêro irapd rovs TroSa? /xoy, /cat
€L7T€V 'EcTTre'/oa? S^ra, fxdXa ye oifte d(j)iK6p.evos
e^ Olvorjs. 6 ydp rot Trals fie o Harvpos drreSpa'
/cat Sijra fxeXXcov ctol <j)pdl,eiv, on hicoôipirjv
avrov, VTTo rivog dXXov iTTeXadofirjv erretSrj 8e
"^Xdov /cat heSeiTTV-qKOTes r^pêv /cat e/xe'AAo/iev
dvarraveadai,, rore p,oi dSeAô? Xeyec, ore rJKei
Upcorayopas. /cat ert evdvs
pi,ev evexelprjcra
napd ae levai, CTretrd piot Xiav rroppco eSoê rdjv
D vvKrdJv etvai- eTrei,Srj Se rdxi'Ord pie e/c rov kottov
6 V7TVOS dvrJKev, evdvs dvaarrds ovrco Sevpo irro-
pevopL-qv. /cat eyoj ytyvcoaKCov avrov rrjV dvSpelav
/cat rrjV Trrot-qcriv, Tt ovv aoi, -qv 8' eyo), rovro;

pLOJV ri ae dSt/cet Wpcorayopas ; /cat o? yeActaa?,
Nt7 rovs deovg, e(f)7], c5 Hco/cpares", on ye piovos

earl ao(f)6s, epik he ov TTOiei. 'AAAd vai pid At'a,
echriv eyu), dv avro) 8t8a)j dpyvpiov /cat Treldrjs
96
PROTAGORAS
FR. And we also to you, I assure you, if you will
tell us.
sec. A twofold obligation. Well now, listen.
During this night just past, in the small hours,
Hippocrates, son of Apollodorus and brother of
Phason, knocked violently at my door with his stick,
and when they opened to him he came hurrying in
at once and calling to me in a loud voice Socrates, :
are you awake, or sleeping ? Then I, recognizing

his voice, said Hippocrates, hallo
: Some news to
!
break to me ? Only good news, he replied. Tell

it, and welcome, I said what is it, and what business
:
brings you here at such an hour ? Protagoras has

come, he said, standing at my side. Yes, two days
ago, I said have you only just heard ? Yes, by
:
Heaven he replied, last evening. /With this he

!
groped about for the bedstead, and sitting down by

my feet he said It was in the evening, after I had
:
got in very late from Oenoe. My boy Satyrus, you

see, had run away I meant to let you know I was
:
going in chase of him, but some other matter put it

out of my head. On my return, when we had finished
dinner and were about to retire, my brother told me,
only then, that Protagoras had come. I made an
effort, even at that hour, to get to you at once, but
came to the conclusion that it was too late at night.
But as soon as I had slept off my fatigue I got up
at once and made my way straight here. Then I,
noting the man's gallant spirit and the flutter he
was in, remarked Well, what is that to you ? Has
:
Protagoras wronged you ? At this he laughed and.

Yes, by the gods he said, by being the only wise
!
man, and not making me one. But, by Zeus I !
said, if you give him a fee and win him over he will
97
PLATO
€K€lvov, voi'qaet /cat ae ao(f)6v. Et yap, "^ S' o?,
E cS Zcu /cat deoi, iv rovrco etr)' ws out* av tcov
efxcijv eTnXnroLjxi ovhev ovre rcx)v îXutv dAA'
a73Ta ravra /cat vvv tJkco irapa ere, Iva inrep epiov
hiaXexdfjS avTcp. iyco yap d/xa jxkv /cat vecorepos"
et/xt, a/ia 8e ovhe icopaKa Upcorayopav TrcuTrore
ovS* OLKrjKoa ovSev en yap
ore to Trals 'q,
TTporepov yap, J) Sco/cpares',

€TT€hrjpi.rjaev . dAAo.
navres tov dvSpa eTraivovai Kai âcrt aocfxoTaTov
etvai Aeyetv dAAd rt oi) âStiôfj,€v Trap* avrov,
311 tva evSov KaraXd^co/jLev ; /caroAuet 8', co? eycu
TjKOvaa, TTapa KaAAta to) iTTTroi/t/cou* dAA' tco/xev.
/cat eyco elrTOv Mt^ttcd, (hyade, iKeXcre Icop-ev, rrpo)
yap iarriv, dAAd Sevpo iâvaarco/jicv et? tt^v auAi^v,
/cat TTCpuovres avrov hLarpiipcopLev, ecos dv (I>6js
yevr]Tai' elra toipLev. /cat ydp rd noXXa IlpojT-

ayopas evSov Biarplêu, coare, ddppei, KaraX-rjô-
fjLeda avrov, a»? ro elKog, evSov.
MeTa TauTa dv'acrTdv'Tes' et? rrjv avXr)v TrepLrjfjiev
B /cat iyd) d7T07T€Lpco[X€Vos rov 'YrrrroKpdrovs rrjs

poip,y]s hieaKOTtovv avrov /cat rjpcorcov, EtTre fxoi,
e(f)r]v iyto, c3 'ImroKpares, napd Upwrayopav
vvv e7rt;êtpet? livai, dpyvpiov reXcbv e/cetVo; [xiadov
VTTcpaeavrov, cu? rrapd riva d(l>L^6p.evos /cat Tt?

y€V7]a6fievog ;ajairep dv et eTrewet? Trapd rov
aavrov 6p,u)vvp,ov iXddjv 'iTnroKpdrr] rov Kwov,
rov rcov *AaKXr]7naSa)v, dpyvpiov reXelv VTrep
aavrov fiiaOov eKelvcp, et Tt? ere rjpero, EtTre /xot,,
C /Lte'AAet? TeAetv, c5 'iTnroKpares, 'lirTTOKpareL fiiaOov

(OS tIvl ovri; ri dv dTTCKpivai; Eittov dv, €<fyrj, ori
98
PROTAGORAS
make you wise too. Would to Zeus and all the
gods, he exclaimed, only that were needed I !
should not spare either my own pocket or those of

my friends. But it is on this very account I have
come to you now, to see if you will have a talk with
him on my behalf: for one thing, I am too young
to do it myself; and for another, I have never yet
seen Protagoras nor heard him speak a word- I was —
but a child when he paid us his previous visit. You
know, Socrates, how everyone praises the man and
tells of his mastery of speech let us step over to
:
him at once, to make sure of finding him in ; he is

staying, so I was told, with CalUas, son of Hipponicus.
Now, let us be going. To this I replied had : We
better not go there yet, my good friend, it is so
very early :let us rise and turn into the court here,
and spend the time strolling there till daylight
comes after that we can go. Protagoras, you see,
;
spends most of his time indoors, so have no fear, we

shall findhim in all right, most likely.
So then we got up and strolled in the court and ;
I, to test Hippocrates' grit, began examining him

with a few questions. Tell me, Hippocrates, I said,
in your present design of going to Protagoras and
paying him money as a fee for his services to your-
self, to whom do you consider you are resorting, and
what is it that you are to become ? Suppose, for
example, you had taken it into your head to call on
your namesake Hippocrates of Cos, the Asclepiad,
and pay him money as your personal fee, and suppose
—
someone asked you Tell me, Hippocrates, in pur-
posing to pay a fee to Hippocrates, what do you
consider him to be ? How would you answer that ?
A doctor, I would say.
99
;;.
PLATO
(OS Larpo). Q,g tls yevrjao/jievos ; '0.g larpos,
€<pir}. Et Se TTapa YioXvKXeiTov rov Âpyelov r)
<Petoiai' TOP * Adrjvalou irrevoeLs d(f)LK6p,evos fjnadov

imep aavTov reXelv e/cetVoi?, et tls ore rjpero'
reXelv rovro to apyvpiov <hs tLvi ovti ev vcp eêt?
YloXuKXeiTcp Te /cat OetSt'a; tl av oLTTeKpivw
Kivov dv d)s dyaXfjbaTOTTOLols. 'H? tls Se yevrj-
aofievos avTos; ArjXov otl dyaXpLaTOTTOLos . Etev,
Tjv o eyixi' TTapa. Se 817 W^poiTayopav vvv d^LKO-
D pevoL eya> Te /cat cry dpyvpcov eKeivcp piaOov eTOLpoL
icropeOa TeXelv VTrep aov, dv pev e^LKvrJTaL Ta
T]p€Tepa ;^p7^|U.ara /cat tovtols TceiOaipev avTov,
el Se pL-q, /cat to. tcov ^lXcov TrpoaavaXiaKOVTes
et ovv TLS rjpds rrepl TavTa ovtco a(f)6Spa ottov-
SdôvTas epoiTO' etVe' poL, a» Sco/cpareV re /cat
'iTTTrd/c/aares", to? rtVt ovtl Ta> IlpwTayopa ev vo)

exeTC ;(/37y)U.aTa reAetv; ti dv avTcp diroKpLvaipeda
E Tt ovopa dXXo ye Xeyopevov irepl YipoiTayopov
aKOvopev ; warrep -nepL OetStou dyaXpaToiroLov /cat
Trepi 'Op'qpov TTOLrjTrjv, ti tolovtov irepl WpoiT-

ayopov dKovopev ; 'EiO(f>iaTr)v St] tol 6vopdt,ovai
ye, o) HcoKpaTes, tov dvSpa etvaL, e(j)rj. 'Q.s
aocf>iaTfjdpa epxdpeda TeXovvTes to. ;^/0i7)LtaTa;
MaAtcrra. Et ovv /cat tovto tls ere TrporrepoLTO'
312 avTos Se Srj to? tls yevrjcropevos epxfj Trapd tov

IlpojTayopav; /cat o? etTrev epvdpidaas tJSt] yap —
V7Te(f>aLve tl rjpepas, cocttc KaTa(f>av7J avTov yeveadai
100
PROTAGORAS
And what would you intend to become ?
A doctor, he replied.
And suppose you had a mind to approach Polycleitus
the Argive or Pheidias the Athenian and pay them a
personal fee, and somebody asked you What is it —
that you consider Polycleitus or Pheidias to be, that
you are minded to pay them this money ? What
would your answer be to that ?
Sculptors, I would reply.
And what would you intend to become ?
Obviously, a sculptor.
Very well then, I said ; you and I will go now to
Protagoras, prepared to pay him money as your fee,
from our own means if they are adequate for the
purpose of prevailing on him, but if not, then dramng
on our friends' resources to make up the sum. Now
if anyone, observing our extreme earnestness in the
—
matter, should ask us, Pray, Socrates and Hippo-
crates, what is it that you take Protagoras to be,
when you purpose to pay him money ? What should
we reply to him ? What is the other name that we
commonly hear attached to Protagoras ? They call
Pheidias a sculptor and Homer a poet what title :
do they give Protagoras ?

A sophist, to be sure, Socrates, is what they call
him.
Then we go to him and pay him the money as a
sophist ?
Certainly.
Now suppose someone asked you this further
question And what
: is it that you yourself hope to
become when you go to Protagoras ?
To —
he replied with a blush for by then there
this
was a glimmer of daylight by which I could see him
101
;
PI>ATO
— Et ^liv Ti rols efiTTpoadev eoiKe, SrjXov on ao'

<f>icrrrjs yevrjaofxevos . Su 8e, ^v 8' iyu), vrpo?
Oecov, ovK dv alaxvvoLo els rovg "EAAr^va? aavrov

ao(f)LGTrjv TTapexoiv; Nr) rov Ata, c5 Sctj/cpare?,
€LTT€p ye d Siavoovfiat XP'^ XeyeLV. 'AAA' dpa, a)

iTTTTOKpares, firj ov roiavr-qv inroXafM^dveis crov ttjv
TTapd Upcorayopov fMadrjaLV eaeaOai, dAA' olaiTep
B r} TTapd Tov ypap,p,ariaTov eyevero Koi KiQapicrTov

Kol TTaiSorpiôv ; tovtcov yap av eKaaTTjv ovk
€7tI Texyrj 'ep,ades, cos hi)jxiovpyds e(j6p,evos, aAA'
CTTi TratSeia, <hs tov ISLiorrjv koI tov eXevdepov
TTpeTTei. Wdw fieV OVV fJ.OL SoKCI, €(f)7j,
TOiaVTTj
fidXXov etvat, rj irapd UpcoTayopov fiddrjais.

Olcrda OVV o pueXXets vvv TTpaTTeiv, tj ae Xav-
Odvei; -^v S' iyo). Tov Trepi; "Otl pêXXeis ttjv
C ^vx'Tjv T7]v aavTov Trapaax^Xv OepaTrevaai dvSpt,

COS <j>XjS, cro(f)i,aTfj' o tl Se rroTe 6 ao(f)i(JTr]s eoTi,
davpidt,oipJ dv el olada. /catVot et tovt ayvoels,

ovhe OTO) TTapaSlScos ttjv ifjvx'^v olada, ovt ei
dyado) OVT* el KaKU) 7Tpdyp,aTt. Oi/xai y', ecfyr),
elSevai. Aeye S-q.^ ri rjy^ etvat, tov a'0(f)i(TT'qv
'Elya> /xeV, ^ 8' os, (Zarrep Tovvofia Xeyei, tovtov

etvai TOV Tcov ao(f)d)v imaT-qpiOva. Ovkovv, tjv
8' iya>, TOVTO p,ev eêaTi Xeyeiv /cat irepl t,o)ypa(f>a)V
102
;
PROTAGORAS
quite clearly — If it is like the previous cases, ob-
become a sophist.
viously, to
In Heaven's name, I said, would you not be
ashamed to present yourself before the Greeks as
a sophist ?
Yes, on my soul I should, Socrates, if I am to

speak my real thoughts.
Yet after all, Hippocrates, perhaps it is not this
sort of learning that you expect to get from Prot-
agoras, but rather the sort you had from your
language-master, your harp-teacher, and your sports-
instructor for when you took your lessons from
;
each of these it was not in the technical way, with

a view to becoming a professional, but for education,
as befits a private gentleman.
I quite agree, he said it is rather this kind of
;
learning that one gets from Protagoras.

Then are you aware what you are now about to
do, or is it not clear to you ? I asked.
To what do you refer ?
I mean your intention of submitting your soul to
the treatment of a man who,
as you say, is a sophist
and as to what a sophist really is, I shall be surprised
if you can tell me. And yet, if you are ignorant of
this, you cannot know to whom you are entrusting
—
your soul, whether it is to something good or to
something evil.
I really think, he said, that I know.
Then tell me, please, what you consider a sophist
to be.
I should say, he replied, from what the name
impUes, that he is one who has knowledge of wise
matters.
Well, I went on, we are able to say this of painters
103
;;
PLATO
Kai rrepi rcKrovcov, on ovtol elaiv ol rcov ao(j>ix)v
D €TnaTrjjj,oves' aAA' ei rt? cpoiro rjp.ds, rcov tl
(JO(f}cx)v elalv ol â)ypd(f)0(, eTTLanqfioves, etTTOt/xev
av 7TOV avTcp, on rcjv irpos rrjv diTepyamav rrjv
rcov eiKovcov, Kal rdXXa ovrcos. el Se ns iKclvo

epoiro, 6 Se ao(f)iar'r]s rcov rl ao<j><j)v icrrl; rl dv
aTTOKpLvolfieOa avrco; TTolas epyaalag iTnardrrjs
Tt dv eLTTOLfxev avrov elvat, c5 TicoKpares, t] im-
ardrrjv rov iroLrjaai heivov Xeyeiv ; "Icrco? dv, rjv
8 eyciS, dXrjdrj Xdyoifxev, ov /xeVroi iKavcos ye'

ipcorT](T€cos ydp en t) dTTOKpiaig rjpLLV Selrai, Trepl
orov o cro(f)LcrTrjg Setvov TTOiel Xeyeiv cLanep a
E Ktdapiarr^s heivov hrjTTOV TTOiel Xeyeiv Trepl ovirep

Kal €7narT]fjLOva, Trepl Kidapiaecos' ^ y^P> Nai.
Efep'* o 8e 877 (70(f)Larrjs Trepl rivos heivov TTOiel
Xeyeiv; AijXov on rrepl ovTrep Kal eTriaraadai}
Et/co? ye. ri 8rJ icm rovro, Trepl oS avros re

eTTicrrripicov earlv 6 ao(f)iarr)g Kal rov /jLad-qrrjv
TTOieZ; Ma At", eî], ovKeri exco aoi Xeyeiv.
3J3 Kat eyci) eiTTOv pierd rovro ' Tt ovv; olada eh

olov riva kivSvvov epxj] vrrodrjacxiv rrjV fjjvxrjv; rj et
piev rd acopia eTTirpeTieiv ae eSei rep, SiaKivSuvevovra
"q ;^/37j<TTOv avro yeveaOai t] TTOvrjpov, TroXXd dv

TTepieaKeiJjco, eir* eTTirpeTrreov e'lre ov, /cat els
' iiriaraffdai Stahl : îria-raTai MSS.

104
PROTAGORAS
also, and of carpenters, —
that they are the persons
who have knowledge of wise matters and if some-
;
one asked us for what those matters are wise, of

which painters have knowledge, I suppose we should
tell him that they are wise for the production of
likenesses, and similarly with the rest. But if he
should ask for what the matters of the sophist are
wise, how should we answer him ? What sort of
workmanship is he master of ?
How should we describe him, Socrates, as a —
master of making one a clever speaker ?
Perhaps, I replied, we should be speaking the
truth, but yet not all the truth for our answer still
;
calls for a question, as to the subject on which the

sophist makes one a clever speaker just as the harp-
:
player makes one clever, I presume, at speaking on

the matter of which he gives one knowledge, namely
—
harp-playing, you agree to that ?
Yes.
Well, about what does the sophist make one a
clever speaker ?
Clearly it must be the same thing as that of which
he gives one knowledge.
So it would seem now what is this thing, of which
:
the sophist himself has knowledge and gives know-

ledge to his pupil ?
Ah, there, in good faith, he said, I fail to find
you an answer.
I then went on to say Now tell me, are you
:
aware upon what sort of hazard you are going to

stake your soul ? If you had to entrust your body to
someone, taking the risk of its being made better or
worse, you would first consider most carefully whether
you ought to entrust it or not, and would seek the
105
PLATO
avuôvXrjv rovs re <f>lXovs av irapeKoXeig koX rovs
oiKCLOVs, aKOTTOVfievos rjfiepas crv)(yds' o Be ircpi
ttXclovos tov Gcofxaros rjyel, rr)v ^v)(rjv, /cat ev w
iravr iarl to. aa tj ev tj KaKcbs TrpdrreLv, -x^priarov
7] TTOvrjpov avTov yevofjLevov, ncpl 8e tovtov ovre

B rw irarpl ovt€ rev a8eA(â» €TT€KOtva)croj ovre rjiJicbv
rojv iraipcuv ovSevi, etr inLTpeTTTeov etre /cat ov

TCp d(f>LKOfJ,€V(p TOVTO) $€V(x) TTjV Crr]V ifjVX'TjV , oAA'
iajTcpas UKOvaas, ws <^7JS", opdpios tJkcov Trepl fiev
TOVTOV ovSeva Xoyov ovSk avfxôvXrjv ttoltj, etre
XP'f) €TnTpe7T€Lv aavTov avTip etre [X'q, cTOLfios S
€t dvaAiCT/cetv ra re aavrov /cat to, tcDv îAcdv

^T^fjiora, (x)S 'tjSrj hieyvoiK(x>s , otl ttovtcos avvecrreov
WpuiTayopa, ov ovtc yiyvcxyaKeis, (hs 4*TI^>
ovt€
C StetAeât ouSeTrcoTrore, oo<f>LaTriv S' 6vopLdt,eLS , tov
Se ao(l)icrrrjv, 6 tL ttotc eaTi, âivei dyvocov, o)
fieXXets aavTov eTrnpirreiv ; /cat os aKovcras,

"Eot/cev, e(f)r], cS Sdj/cpare?, i^ d)V av Xiyeis.
*Ap* ovv, <L 'iTTTTOKpares, 6 ao(f)iaTrjS Tvyxdvei wv
e/JiTTopos TLS ^ Kd7Tf]Xos Tcov dycoyifjiojv, d(f>* uJv
*f'^XV T/)e(êTat;
âtVerat yap efxotye tolovtos rtj.
Tpe(f)eTai Se, c5 Sdj/cpare?, ^'^XH t^vl; ^ladrjfxaai
hrjTtov, rjv S' eyd). /cat OTroj? ye /xi), c5 eVatpe, o
ao<f)i,aTr)9 inaivcov d TrcoAet eânaT-qcrri r]nds,
wcnrep ol Trepl ttjv tov o-dS/xaTo? Tpo^rjv, 6 epiTTopos
D Te /cat KCtTrrÂos'. /cat ya/j ovToi ttov (Sv dyovaiv

dyoiyipioiv ovTe avTol tcracrtv o rt XPV^'^°^ r] no-
vnpov TTcpl TO acjjxa, eTraivovai Se iravTa ttcuXovvtcs,
106
—;
PROTAGORAS
advice of your friends and relations and ponder it
for a number of days but in the case of your soul,
:
which you value much more highly than your body,

and on which depends the good or ill condition of
all your affairs, according as it is made better or
worse, would you omit to consult first with either
your father or your brother or one of us your com-
—
rades, as to whether or no you should entrust your
very soul to this newly-arrived foreigner ; but choose
rather, having heard of him in the evening, as you
say, and coming to me at dawn, to make no mention
of this question, and take no counsel upon it
whether you ought to entrust yourself to him or not
and are ready to spend your own substance and that
of your friends, in the settled conviction that at all
costs you must converse with Protagoras, whom you
neither know, as you tell me, nor have ever met in
argument before, and whom you call " sophist," in
patent ignorance of what this sophist may be to
whom you are about to entrust yourself ?
WTien he heard this he said It seems so, Socrates,
:
by what you say.

Then can it be, Hippocrates, that the sophist is
really a sort of merchant or dealer in provisions on
which a soul is nourished ? For such is the view I
take of him.
With what, Socrates, is a soul nourished ?
With doctrines, presumably, I rephed. And we
must take care, my good friend, that the sophist, in
commending his wares, does not deceive us, as both
merchant and dealer do in the case of our bodily
food. For among the provisions, you know, in which
these men deal, not only are they themselves ignorant
what is good or bad for the body, since in selling they
107
PLATO
ovT€ ol d)vovfi€VOL Trap* avTcHv, iav fi-q ris TvxTf)
yvfMvacrTLKos r^ larpos c3v. ovtco 8e /cai ol ra
fiad-^fxaTa Treptdyovres Kara rag ttoXcls kol ttco-
Xovvres Kal KairrjXevovres Ta> del cTrtû/xowTi
67ratvouCTi iiev irdura d ttcoXovcfl, rd-)(a 8' dv rives,
c5 dpicrre, Kal rovrcov dyvootev cov TTCoXovatv o ri
E XPV^^^^ V 'ôv-qpov TTpos rrjv ^vx^^v' (hg S' avrois

Kal ol (hvovfievot. Trap" avrutv, idv /X17 ti? tvxT)
TTepl rrjv i/ivxrjv av larptKog a>v. el fjuev ovv crv
rvyxdvei? emcrrripiaiv rovrcov rl XPV^'^^^ '^^•^
7TOV7]p6v, da(j)aXes aoi (LveZadai ixad-qp-ara Kai

TTapd Ylpayrayopov Kal Trap' dXXov orovovv ei 8e
fxri, opa, (h fjuaKapce, [mtj Trepl rots (f)iXraroLS
314 Kvêvjjs re Kal KLvbvvevrjS' Kal yap Brj Kal ttoXv
fiei^cov KLvSvvos ev rrj rcov fiadrjfjidrcov oivfj rj ev
rfj rojv airicjov. airia fxev yap kol irord TrpidpLevov
TTapd rov KaTn^Xou Kal ifXTTopov eêariv ev dXXois
dyyeioLS diroêpeiv, kol Trplv heâoQai avrd els
ro acofia Triovra r^ âyovra, Karadepievov ot/caSe
eêari avp.ôvXevaaaBai, trapaKaXeaavra rov
eiratovra, ri re eSeareov tj iroreov /cat o ri fi'q,
Kal oTToaov Kai oTTore' ojare ev rfj ojvfj ov fxeyas
B o KLvSvvos- p-ad-qfjiara 8e ouk eariv ev aXXco
dyyelcp drreveyKelv, aXX dvdyK-q, KaraOevra rrjv
rifi-qv, TO fidd7jp.a ev avrfj rrj fpvxfj Xaôvra Kal
p,a96vra dTTievai rj êPXap,p,evov rj (x)(f)eXr]p,evov.
ravra ovv OKOTTOijieda Kal jierd rcov Trpea^vrepojv

rjjxivv' rjjiels ydp en veoi ojare roaovrov Trpdyjia
SteXeaOai. vvv jxevroi, wairep cbpfi-qaajxev, tcofiev
108
;
PROTAGORAS
commend them all, but the people who buy from
them are so too, unless one happens to be a trainer
or a doctor. And in the same way, those who take
their doctrines the round of our cities, hawking them
about to any odd purchaser who desires them, com-
mend everything that they sell, and there may well
be some of these too, my good sir, who are ignorant
which of their wares is good or bad for the soul
and in just the same case are the people who buy
from them, unless one happens to have a doctor's
knowledge here also, but of the soul. So then, if
you are well informed as to what is good or bad
among these wares, it will be safe for you to buy
doctrines from Protagoras or from anyone else you
please : but if not, take care, my dear fellow, that
you do not risk your greatest treasure on a toss of
the dice. For I tell you there is far more serious
risk in the purchase of doctrines than in that of
eatables. When you buy victuals and liquors you
can carry them off from the dealer or merchant in
separate vessels, and before you take them into
your body by drinking or eating you can lay them
by in your house and take the advice of an expert
whom you can call in, as to what is fit to eat or
drink and what is not, and how much you should
take and when ;so that in this purchase the risk is
not serious. But you cannot carry away doctrines
in a separate vessel you are compelled, when you
:
have handed over the price, to take the doctrine in

your ver}^ soul by learning it, and so to depart either
an injured or a benefited man. These, then, are ques-
tions which we have to consider with the aid of our
elders, since we ourselves are still rather young to
unravel so great a matter. For the moment, how-
voL. IV E 109
PLATO
KaL OLKovaayfiev rov dvSpos, eneira OLKOvaavres
/cat dXXoLs dvaKOLVcoacofxeda- /cai yap ov fxovos
IlpojTayopas avrodi iariv, dAAa /cat 'iTTTrta? o
C HAetos" oi/xat Se /cat YVpohiKov rov Ketov /cat
aAAot TToAAot /cat ao(f)oi.
Aoâv rjixlv ravra eiropevofxeda' eTTeiSrj 8e iv

Tw TTpodupo) iyevofjieda, €7nardvT€s ncpi rivog
Xoyov SieXeyofxeda, os Kara rrjv ohov cvcTTcaev
rjfxZv
IV* ovv fXT) dreXrjs yevoiro, dAAa hiaTrepavdp.evoi

ovrcos iatoLfjLev, aravres iv ro) Trpodvpco SteAeyo-
fxeda, €Ct)S crvvcofioXoyrjaafJiev dAATjAots". So/cet ovv
fjbOL, 6 Ovpcopos, evvovxos rts", Kar-qKOvev rj/Jiwv, klv-
J) Svvevet, Be Sid ro TrXrjdog ratv ao(f>iara)v dxdeadai

rots (f>o(,ra)aLV els rrjv ot/ctav eTTeiSr) yovv eKpov-
aa/xev rrjv Ovpav, dvoiâg /cat tScov r)p,dg, "Ea, e^?^,
ao(f)Larai rives' ov axoXrj avrcp- /cat d'/xa dp,(f)oXv
roTv ')(epoiv rr]v dvpav ttouv TrpoOvficos co? otd? r

^v eTT-qpaê. /cat r]p,€LS TrdXtv eKpovofxev, /cat os
€yKeKXr]p,evr]s rrjs dvpas dnoKpLvofievos etTrev,

*n dvOpoJTTOi, e(f)rj,ovk dKTjKoare, ore ov axoXrj
avrw; 'AAA' co 'yaOe, e(f)r]V eyco, ovre napd KaXXiav
W •n/co/xev ovre aocfucrrat eafiev dXXd ddppev Yipcor-
ayopav ydp roi Sed/xevot Ihelv 7]X6ofxev' ela-
dyyeiXov ovv. /xdyt? ovv rrore rjp.iv dv9pa>7Tos

dvecjê rrjv Ovpav eTTeiSrj Be elarjXdopev , KareXd-
jSojLtev Upojrayopav iv rep 7rpoara)cp Trepiirarovvra,
e^rjs S' avro) crvp.TTepieTrdrovv iK /xev rov im

110
PROTAGORAS
ever, let us pursue our design and go and hear this
person ; and when we have heard him we shall
proceed to consult others for Protagoras is not the
:
only one there we shall find Hippias of Elis and,

;
I believe, Prodicus of Ceos, and numerous other men

of wisdom besides.
This we resolved on, and set forth and when we
;
arrived at the doorway, we stood discussing some

question or other that had occurred to us by the
way so, not to leave it unfinished, but to get it
:
settled before we went in, we stood there and dis-

cussed in front of the door, until we had come to an
agreement with each other. Now, I fancy the door-
keeper, who was a eunuch, overheard us very hkely
;
the great number of sophists has made him annoyed

with callers at the house at any rate, when we had
:
knocked on the door, he opened it and, on seeing us,

— Hullo, he said, sophists there Master is engaged.
!
So saying, he seized the door with both hands and

very smartly clapped it to with all his might. We
tried knocking again, and then he spoke in answer
—
through the closed door, Sirs, have you not heard,
he is engaged ? But, my good fellow, I said, we
have not come to see Callias, nor are we sophists.
Have no fear I tell you, we have come to ask if
:
we may see Protagoras ; so go and announce us.

Then with much hesitation the fellow opened the
door to us ; and when we had entered, we came
upon Protagoras as he was walking round in the
cloister,^ and close behind him two companies were
walking round also on the one side Callias, son of
;
* The passage from the

front door led into a cloister which
surrounded an open court and gave access to the various
rooms of the house.
Ill
PLATO
darepa KaAAta? o 'Ittttovlkov /cat o dSeAô?
315 avTov 6 ofioixTJrpLog, IlapaAos' o Ilept/cAeous', Kal
âpixlSrjs 6 TXavKCovos, e/c Se tou ctti darepa 6
erepog rcou YlepiKXeovs "EolvOlttttos Kal OtAtTTTriST^s'
o <l>tAo/X7Âoi; /cat ^ Avripbotpos 6 MevSatos", oairep
evSoKLfxel jxdX(,crTa tcov Upcorayopov fxadrjrcov Kal
em rexi'l) fiavOdvet, cos ao(f)t(TTr]s icrofxevos. rov-
TO)v Be ot OTTiadev rjKoXovdovv eTvaKovovTes ra>v
Xeyofievajv, to fiev ttoXv êvoi eâivovro , ovs dyei
e^ eKaoTcov tcov TToXecov 6 TlpajTayopas, St' Jjv
Sieêpxcrai,, ktjXcJov rfj (f)ojvfj axTTrep *0p<f>ev9, ot
B 8e Kara rrjv ^covrjv eirovrai KeK-qXrjpievoi,' rjaav
8e TLves /cat rajv inLxcopiôv ev ra> X^P^' tovtov
rov xppov ixdXiara eytoye ISwv rjad-qv, cos KaXcos
rjvXaôuvTo jX'qSeTTore epiTToScbv ev Tip rrpocrdev
elvat Upcorayopov, oAA' eirechrj avros dvacrrpe(f>ot
/cat ot fjier eKeivov, ev ttcos Kal ev /coct/xo) rrepi-
ecrxiôvTO ovroc ot eTrrjKooi evOev Kal evdev, /cat ev ,
kvkXo) TTepuovres del els to o-madev KaOiaravTo

KoXXiara.
Tov 8e pier etaevorjaa, €(f>T] "OpLtjpos, 'iTTTrtavj
C rov 'HAetov, Kad-qpuevov ev rep /car' dvriKpv Trpo-

arwcp ev dpovcp' rrepl avrov 8' eKdd-qvro em
^dOpoiv ^Yipvîp,ax6s re 6 ^ AKOvpuevov Kal âlBpos
6 MvppLvovaios Kal ÂvSpcov 6 *Av8porLC0vos /cat
TCOV êvcov TToXZrai re avrov Kal aXXoi rives,
eâivovro he nepl <^vcrecos re Kal rcbv pLerecopcov
darpovopuKa drra Scepcorav rov 'ImrLav, 6 S' ev
dpovcp KaQrjpievos eKdarois avrcov hieKpive /cat
Sie^27et rd epcorcopieva. Kal p-ev Srj Kal TdvraXov
1 Od. xi. 601.
112
—
PROTAGORAS
Hipponicus and his brother on the mother's side,
Paralus, son of Pericles, and Charmides, son of
Glaucon, while the other troop consisted of Pericles'
other son Xanthippus, Philippides, son of Philomelas,
and Antimoerus of Mende, who is the most highly
reputed of Protagoras' disciples and is taking the
course professionally with a view to becoming a
sophist. The persons who followed in their rear,
listening to what they could of the talk, seemed to
be mostly strangers, brought by the great Protagoras
from the several cities which he traverses, enchant-
ing them with his voice like Orpheus, while they
follow where the voice sounds, enchanted ; and
some of our own inhabitants were also dancing
attendance. As for me, when I saw their evolu-
tions I was dehghted with the admirable care
they took not to hinder Protagoras at any
moment by getting in front but whenever the
;
master turned about and those with him, it was

fine to see the orderly manner in which his train of
listeners spHt up into two parties on this side and
on that, and wheeling round formed up again each
time in his rear most admirably.
" And next did I mark," as Homer^ says, Hippias of
Elis, seated high on a chair in the doorway opposite ;
and sitting around him on benches were Eryximachus,

son of Acumenus, Phaedrus of Myrrhinous, Andron
son of Androtion and a number of strangers,
fellow-citizens of Hippias and some others. They
seemed to be asking him a series of astronomical
questions on nature and the heavenly bodies, while
he, seated in his chair, was distinguishing and ex-
pounding to each in turn the subjects of their
questions. " Nay more, Tantalus also did I there
113
PLATO
ye CLaelSov eireh-qfiet yap dpa /cat YlpoSiKO^ 6
D Ketos" rjv 8e iv olKrjp,ari tlvl, cS Trpo rov fxev co?
rapLLeio) ixPW^ 'Yttttovlko'S, vvv Se vtto rod rrXiqOov^
raJu KaTaXvovrojv 6 KaAAi'a? /cai tovto CKKevcoaa?
êuoig KaraXvaLV TTCTToi-qKev 6 fxev ovv Ylpo- .
St/co? eri KareKeiTo,

iyKeKaXvfxpêvog iv KOjStot?
TiCTt /cat (Trpcofiaat /cat jxdXa ttoXXols, cos etâtVero"
TTapeKad-qvTO Se ayroi eVt ratS" TrXrjaiov /cAtVat?
Oauaai'ta? re o e/c Kepa/xe'oji^ /cat //.era Ilauorai/tou
ve'oi' Tt ert /jbeipaKLov, co? /zei' iycLfiai, KaXov re
E Kayadov rrjv (f)vaiv, rrjv 8' ow tSe'av' Trai'y /caAd?.
eSofa d/coycrat 6vop.a avro) 'AydOcova, /cat
etvai
oi)/c at* davfidôipii, et TratSt/ca Hayaat'toy rvyxdueu
Sv. rovro t' i^p' to fi€t,pdKtov, /cat to/ 'ASet/xavrco
a/Jbôrepco, 6 re KT^TrtSo? /cat o AevKoXocfytSov, /cat
aAAot Ttre? €(f)aivovro- Trepl 8e c5j^ SteAe'yot'TO ou/c
iSvvd/jirjV eycoye fxadelv e^codev, /catTre/a AtTra/acDs'
k-)(<x)v aKOveiv rov YlpoSlKov 7Tdacro(f)og yap /xol
316 8o/cet dvr)p etvai /cat Oelos' dXXd 8ta ttî^ âpvrrjra
rfjs (jxovrjs ôfiôg Tt? ei^ to) olKijfMari, yiyv6p,evog
daa<j)ri eTTOiet to, Aeyoju.et'a.
Kat dpri €la€Xr)Xvd€ip.€V, Karomv 8e
rjfiels p-ev
rjpi,d)v AXKLîdS-qs re o /caAd?, co? (^t)?
€7TeL(TrjXdov *
av /cat eyco TreidopLai, /cat K/atrta? d KaAAaicr;(/30i;.

rjpi€LS ovv d)S elurjXdopiev , ert ap^LKp' drra 8ta-
rpupavres /cat ravra Siadeaadp-evoi 7Tpoafjp,€V
B Trpd? rov npa>rayd/3ai', /cat eyco elirov *D Ilpcur-
ayopa, npos ae rot. rjXdopiev lydi re /cat 'iTnroKpdrrjs
ovrog. Uorepov, e(f)r], p,6v(x) ôvXapêvoi 8ta-
Xexdrjvai /cat êra rcDt' aAAojt'; 'H/xtv' ^tev, jyi'
8'
7^
^ Od. xi. 5S2. A touch of epic dignity is humorously

114
PROTAGORAS
behold,"^ —
for you know Prodicus of Ceos is in
Athens too he was in a certain apartment formerly
:
used bv Hipponicus as a strong-room, but now cleared

out by Callias to make more space for his numerous
visitors, and turned into a guest-chamber. Well,
Prodicus was still abed, wrapped up in sundry fleeces
and rugs, and plenty of them too, it seemed and ;
near him on the beds hard by lay Pausanias from

Cerames, and with Pausanias a lad who was still quite
—
young, of good birth and breeding, I should say, and
at events a very good-looking person. I fancied I
all
heard his name was Agathon, and I should not be
surprised to find he is Pausanias' favourite. Besides
this youth there were the two Adeimantuses, sons of
Cepis and Leucolophidas, and there seemed to be
some others. The subjects of their conversation I
was unable to gather from outside, despite my
longing to hear Prodicus ; for I regard the man
as all- wise and divine but owing to the depth
:
of his voice the room was filled with a booming

sound which made the talk indistinct.
We had only just come in, when close on our heels
entered Alcibiades the good-looking, as you call him
and I agree that he is, and Critias, son of Cal-
laeschrus. So, when we had entered, after some
more Uttle delays over certain points we had to
examine, we went up to Protagoras, and I said :
Protagoras, you see we have come to you, Hippocrates

and I.
Is it your wish, he askecl, to converse with me alone,
or in company with others ?
It is all the same to us, I replied : let me first
given to the mention of the two famous sophists, Hippias

and Prodicus.
115
PLATO
iyoi, ovhev Staêpet- aKovaag hi, ov eveKa '^XOo/xev,
avTOS (TK€i/jaL. Tt ovv Srj lariv, €(f>y), o5 eve/ca
TjKere; '\7T7TOKpdrr^s oSe iarl /xev rcbv eTTLXcopicov,
A77oAAoSa>poy vlos, oiKias {xeydXrjs re /cat euSaC-
fjLovos, avTos 8e rrjv (f)va(,v So/cet eVa/xiAAos" etv'at
C Tot? jJAtKriwTats'. €7ndvfji€LV 8e /xot So/cet eA-

Adyt/xo? yevdadat iv rfj TroXet., tovto Se olerai
OL fidXiar' dv yeveadai, el aol crvyyevoLTO' ravr^
ovv OKonei, rrorepov rrepl avTcov /xovos oiei
rjSr] cru
helv hiaXlyeodai irpos fiovovs, jLter' aAAa>v. ">}
'Opdojs, €(/}r], Trpofirjdfj, c5 JjiOKpares, VTrep ifMov.

êvov yap dvSpa /cat tovra et? TrdAet? fieydXas, /cat
ev ravrais ireidovTa rd)v veojv rovs êXnarovs

aTToXeLTTOvrag rds rcbv dXXoiv avvovaias, /cat I
OLKeiojv /cat odveiojv, /cat Trpea^vrepcov /cat veU)-
repcov, iavro) avveZvai dis êXriovs iaofievovg 8td
D TJ^veavrov crvvovaiav XP'^ evXaêZaOai rov ravra
,
TTpdrrovra' ov yap ap,LKpol Trepl avrd (f)d6voL re

yiyvovTai /cat aAAat Bvajxeveiai re /cat emôvXai.
iyd) Se Trjv ao(f>icm,Krjv rexvrjv ij)T]{xl fxev elvai
TTaXatdv, rovs Se {xerax^f-pt-ôpbevovs avrrju rcov
TTaXatdJv dvhpcov, ôôvpievovs ro irraxd^g avrrjg,
irpoax'^P'O. TTOLcZadai /cat TTpoKaXvTrreadat, rovg
piev TTOLTjaiv, olov Opirjpov re /cat 'YiaioSov /cat
HtpLCOVLS-qv , rovs 8e av reXerdg re /cat ;\;/>7^CT/>ta)8ia?,

TOWS' a/x^t re 'Opcf)ea /cat Mouaatov eviovg 8e
Tiva? rjudrjpaL /cat yvpuvaariK-qv, olov "I/c/cos" re o
Tapai'Ttvo? /cat d vvv en wv ovSevos TJrrcov ao-
E (f)Lcrrf)S 'HpoSiKog 6 HrjXvpi^piavog, ro Be dpxalov
Meyapeus" pLovacKrjv 8e ÂyaOoKXrjg re 6 vpLerepos
116
PROTAGORAS
tell you our object in coining, and then you must
decide.
Well, what is he asked.
your object ?
My friend Hippocrates a native of the city, a
is
son of Apollodorus and one of a great and prosperous
family, while his own natural powers seem to make
him a match for anyone of his age. I fancy he is
anxious to gain consideration in our city, and he
believes he can best gain it by consorting with you.
So now it is for you to judge whether it will be
fittest for you to converse on this matter privately
with us alone, or in company with others.
You do right, Socrates, he said, to be so thoughtful
on my behalf. For when one goes as a stranger into
great cities, and there tries to persuade the best of
the young men to drop their other connexions, either
with their own folk or with foreigners, both old and
young, and to join one's own circle, with the promise
of improving them by this connexion with oneself,
such a proceeding requires great caution since very ;
considerable jealousies are apt to ensue, and numer-

ous enmities and intrigues. Now I tell you that
sophistry is an ancient art, and those men of ancient
times who practised it, fearing the odium it involved,
disguised it in a decent dress, sometimes of poetry, as
in the case of Hoiner, Hesiod, and Simonides ; some-
times of mystic rites and soothsay ings, as did Orpheus,
Musaeus and their sects ; and sometimes too, I have
observed, of athletics, as with Iccus^ of Tarentum
—
and another still li\-ing as great a sophist as any
— Herodicus^ of Selymbria, originally of Megara;
and music was the disguise employed by yoiur own
1 A famous athlete and traiuer.
* A trainer who also practised medicine.
VOL. IV E 2 117
PLATO
7rp6ax'r}fio. iiroi'âaTo, fieyas cov ao(f>iaTTJs, Kal
TlvdoKXetSr]^ 6 Keto? /cat aAAoi ttoXXoL ovtol
TTOLVTes, CiiGTTep Xiycx), (f)0^'qd€vres rov (fidovov rals
317 ri-xyais ravrai? TrapaTreraafJiaaiv ixpT^crcLvro' eyoj
Se TOVTOLS drraaL Kara rovro elvai ov ^vp,(f)€pofiaL-
Tjyovfiai yap avrovs ov n SLaTrpdâadat o iôvXrj-
drjctav ov yap Xadelv rdv dv6pa)7Tcov rovs Sup'a-
fxevovs ev Tat? "noXeai Trpdrreiv, Svnep eveKa ravT
earl ra TTpocrx'^P'Oira- eTret ot ye ttoXXoI co? enos
enTetv ovSev aladdvovrai, aXX drr av ovroi
Stayye'AAojcrt, ravra vfivovac. ro ovv aTroStSpa-
CTKOvra p,rj SvvaaOat aTToSpdvai,, dXXd Karacfiavrj
B etvai, ttoXXt] p,copia /cat rov eTTLxeLprjixarog, /cat
TToXv Svafievearepovs TrapexâdaL dvdyK-q rovs
dvOpcoTTOVs' rjyovvrai yap rov roLovrov Trpo^ rot's
dXXoLS /cat TTOvovpyov elvai. eych ovv rovrcov rrjv
evavrtav diraaav ohov iX-qXvda, /cat ofioXoydj re
ao(f)iGrr]g etvat /cat TratSeuett' avdpcoTTOVs, /cat
evXdêtav ravrrjv otfiai êXrico eKeLvqg etvai, ro

ofjLoXoyelv fxaXXov rj eâpvov elvar /cat ctAAa?
Trpo? ravrr] eaKe/jifiai, ware, avv dew enrelv,
C firjSev Seivov Trdaxîv 8ta ro ofioXoyelv ao(j)Larrjs
elvai. Kairoi rroXXd ye er-q TJSr] et/x.t ev rfj rexvrj-
Kal yap Kal ra ^vfinavra iroXXd pbOi eariv ovhevo?
orov ov TTovrajv av vp,a)v /ca^' rjXiKiav Trar-qp elrjv
ware ttoXv /xot 'qSiarov eartv, et rt ôvXeade, Tvepi
rovrwv aTTOvrwv evavriov rwv evSov ovrwv rov
Xoyov TTOielaOai. —
Kal eyw VTrwrrrevaa yap ôv-
Xeadai avrov rw re WpohiKw Kal rw 'iTTTria
evSelâadat, Kal KaXXwTTtaaadai, on epaaral avrov
D d<j)Lyp,evoL etrjfiev —
Tt ovv, e^-qv eyw, ov Kal Y\.p6-
118
PROTAGORAS
Agathocles,^ a great sophist, Pythocleides^ of Ceos,
and many more. All these, as I say, from fear of ill-
will made use of these arts as outer coverings. But I
do not conform to the method of all these persons,
since I beheve they did not accomplish any of their
designs for the purpose of all this disguise could
:
not escape the able men of affairs in each city ; the

multitude, of course, perceive practically nothing,
but merely echo this or that pronouncement of their
leaders. Now to try to run away, and to fail through
being caught in the act, shows sad folly in the mere
attempt, and must needs make people far more
hostile for they regard such an one, whatever else
;
he may be, as a rogue. Hence the road I have taken

is one entirely opposite to theirs : I admit that I am
a sophist and that I educate men ; and I consider
this precaution, of admitting rather than denying,
the better of the two. There are others besides that
I have meditated, so as to avoid, under Heaven, any
harm that may come of admitting that I am a sophist.
And yet many long years have I now been in the
profession, for many in total number are those that
I have lived not one of you all, but in age I might
:
be his father .2 Hence it suits me by far the best,

in meeting your wishes, to make my discourse on
these matters in the presence of all who are in the
house.
On this, as I suspected that he •wished to make a
display before Prodicus and Hippias, and give him-
self airs on the personal attachment shown by our
coming to him, I remarked Then surely we must call
:
* A
music-teacher.
**
In the Meno (91 e) we are told that Protagoras lived
Dearly seventy years, forty of which he spent in teaching.
119
PLATO
Slkov KOI '^TTTTLav eKaXeaafMcv kol rovs fier'
avra>v, Iva eTraKovarwaiv -qficbv; Udvv fxev ovv,
e<f)r] 6 Ylpcorayopas. BovXecrOe ovi>, 6 KaAAta?
€.<j)rj, (TDveSpiov KaTaaK€udao)p,€V, tva KadeôfievoL
6t,aXeyrja9e ; ESo/cec xprjvac acr/xevot Se ttovtcs
r)p,€LS, cos OLKOvaofievoi, dvSpa>v aocficov, /cat avroi
T€ rwv ^ddpcov kol tcov kXcvcov
dvTiXaôjxevoi
KaT€aK€vdt,opL€v napd Tip 'iTnria' eKet yap Trpo-
V7rfjpx€ rd ^ddpa. iv 8e rovrcp KaAAta? re /cat
E 'AA/ctjStaST^S' rjKerrjV dyovre rov YipoSiKov, dva-

aT-qaavres ck rrjs kXcvtjs, /cat rovs fxerd rov
ripoSt/cou,
'Evret 8e irdvres crvv€Kad€t,6p,€9a, 6 Ylpcorayopas,
Nw 817 dv, e<j)rj, XeyoL?, c5 Soj/cpare?, 6776187) Kat
0186 Trdpetari, Trepl Sv oXiyov vporepov p.veiav
CTTOtou Trpos €p.€ VTT€p Tov veavLGKOv. /cttt iydj
318 etnov on *H avrrj jjlol dp^rj icrriv, d) Upcorayopa,
qTTep dpri, TTcpl <Lv d(f)LK6ixrjv . 'iTnroKpdrrjs yap
ohe TvyxdveL iv eTnQvpiia (x)V rrjs aijg avvovaias'
6 TL ovv avTcp dTTO^-qaeraL, edv aoi crvvfj, TySecu?
dv (jyrjai roaovTOS o ye rjfJ,€T€pos Xoyos.

TcvdeaOai.
V7ToXa^d)v ovv 6 Ylpcorayopas elTrev ^Q. veaviaKe,
earat roivvv aot, idv ifMol avvfjs, fj dv qp.epa ipôl
avyyevTj, dTnevai ot/caSe êXriovi yeyovoTi, /cat ev
rfj varepala ravrd ravra- /cat €KdGrr]s rj/jcepas
B aet CTTt TO /Se'Artov eVtStSoiât. /cat eyco aKOvaas

€t7TOV ^Q. IlpcoTayopa, tovto jxkv ovhev davfiaarov
XeycLS, aAAa et/co?, eVet Kav av, /catVep ttjXlkovtos
120
PROTAGORAS
Prodicus and Hippias and their followers to come and
listen to us !
By all means, said Protagoras.

Then do you agree, said Callias, to our making
a session of it, so that we may sit at ease for our
conversation ?
The proposal was accepted and all of us, dehghted
;
at the prospect of hstening to ^nse men, took hold

of the benches and couches ourselves and arranged
them where Hippias was, since the benches were
there already. Sleanwhile Callias and Alcibiades
came, bringing with them Prodicus, whom thev had
induced to rise from his couch, and Prodicus' circle
also.
When we had all taken our seats, —So now,
Socrates, said Protagoras, since these gentlemen are
also present, be so good as to tell what you were
mentioning to me a little while before on the young
man's behalf.
To which repUed The same point, Protagoras,
I :
will serve me
for a beginning as a moment ago, in
regard to the object of my \isit. My friend Hippo-
crates finds himself desirous of joining your classes ;
and therefore he says he would be glad to know
what result he will get from joining them. That is
all the speech we have to make.
Then Protagoras answered at once, saying Young :
man, you will gain this by coming to my classes,

that on the day when you join them you will go
home a better man, and on the day after it will be
the same every day you will constantly improve
;
more and more.

When I heard this I said Protagoras, what you
:
say is not at all surprising, but quite likely, since even
121
PLATO
Oiv Kai ovTio ao(f)6s, et rig ae SiSdêiev o fxr) rvy-
Xavois eTTLardixevos fêXriojv av yivoio' dXXd fir]
,
ovrojs, aAA' wdTTep dv el avriKa fxdXa fxeraâXcov

T7]v emdvfLLav 'iTTTTOKpdTrjs o8e eTrtû/xr^crete rrjg
avvovaias rovrov tov veavioKov rod vvv vecoarl
eTTih-qiiovvros , Tjevîmrov rod ' Hpa/cAecoToy, Koi
a(f)LK6fJievos nap' avrov, oiOTrep irapd ae vvv,
C aKovaeiev avrov ravrd ravra, direp aov, on
eKdarrjs rjfxepas ^vvdjv avrco êXrioiv earai Kai
imScoaei' el avrov enavepoiro' rl S-q (f)r]s êXrico
eaeaOai Kai els re etrtoi dv avrco 6
emScocreiv ;
"Zev^LTTTTOS, on TTpdskov el ÔpOayopa
ypa^LKrjv
ra> QrjâLco avyyevofievos aKOvaag eKeivov ravrd
,
ravra, dnep aov, erravepoiro avrov els d n êXrlojv

Kad" rijxepav earai avyyiyvofMevos eKeivco, e'iTToi
dv, on els avXrjaiv ovro) 8rj Kai av elire rw veavi-

D aKco Kai ifiol virep rovrov epojrdjvn, 'ImroKpdrrjs
oSe Upcorayopa avyyevofievos, fj
dv avrw rjfiepa
avyyevrfrai, êXriojv ctTretcrt yevofievos Kai rcbv
dXXcov TjfiepdJv eKdarrjS ovrcos einhayaei els ri, c5
Yipoirayopa, /cat irepl rod; /cat o Wpojrayopas

efiov ravra aKovaas, 2u re /caAcD? epcoras, e<^^,
d> HwKpares, Kai eyd) rois /caAo)? epojrioaL ;(atpa>
dTTOKpivofievos- 'IvTroKparrfs yap Trap ifie dcf)-
iKOfievos ov TTeiaerai, d-nep dv enadev dXXo) rto
avyyevofievos rcov aoîardyv ol fxev yap aAAot
Xco^d)vrai rovs veovs' rds ydp rexvas avrovs
E 7Te(f)evy6ras aKovras ndXiv av dyovres efi^dXXovaiv
els rexvas, Xoyiafiovs re Kai darpovofiiav /cat
122
PROTAGORAS
you, though so old and so wise, would be made better
if someone taught you what you happen not to
know. But let me put it another way : suppose
Hippocrates here should change his desire all at once,
and become desirous of this young fellow's lessons
who has just recently come to town, Zeuxippus of
Heraclea, and should approach him, as he now does
you, and should hear the very same thing from him
as from you, — how on each day that he spent with
him he would be better and make constant progress ;
and suppose he were to question him on this and
ask : In what shall I become better as you say, and
to what will my progress be ? Zeuxippus 's reply
would be, to painting. Then suppose he came to
the lessons of Orthagoras the Theban, and heard
the same thing from him as from you, and then
inquired of him for what he would be better each
day through attending his classes, the answer would
be, for fluting. In the same way you also must
satisfy this youth and me on this point, and tell us
for what, Protagoras, and in what connexion my
friend Hippocrates, on any day of attendance at the
classes of Protagoras, will go away a better man,
and on each of the succeeding days will make a like
advance.
—
When Protagoras heard my words, You do right,
he said, to ask that, while I am only too glad to
answer those who ask the right question. For
Hippocrates, if he comes to me, will not be
treated as he would have been if he had joined
the classes of an ordinary sophist. The generality
of them maltreat the young ; for when they have
escaped from the arts they bring them back against
their will and force them into arts, teaching them
123
PLATO
yeconerptav koI fiovcTLKrjv SiSdaKovres koI ap,a —
els Tov iTTTTLav OLTTe^Xeipe —
Trapa 8' e/xe atîKojxevos
fxaO'qaerai ov Trepc aAAoy tov ^ Trepl ov ij/cet. to
8e p,d9r]iJid cotlv evôvXia Trepi re Ta)v oIk€lcov
OTTCOS civ dpicTTa TTjv avTOV oIkIov Slolkol, /cat TTepl
319 TCOV TTJS TToAeCOS", OTTCOS" TO, TTjg TToXecos SuvaTcoTaTos
dv eXrj /cat TrpaTTeiv /cat Xeyet-v.
Âp\ €(f}7]v iyo), eTTO/jbai aov tm Xoycp; So/cet? ydp
pLOi XeyeLV tt^v ttoXltlkt^v Texvrjy /cat vincj-xyelad ai
dvSpas dyadovs TToXcTag.
TTOielv
AvTo fMev ovv TOVTo ecTTtv, 6^17, a> Sco/cpares', ro
eTTdyyeX/jia, o enayyeXXofjiai. ,
•
*H KaXov, S' eyco, Texvqpia dpa KeKTiqaai,

"^v
etTTep KeKTTjaaL' ov yap tl dXXo rrpos ye ere elprj-

acTai rj direp voco. iyoj ydp tovto, c5 YipajTayopa,
B ovK a)fJLr]v SiSaKTOv elvat, aol Se XeyovTi ovk e;!â>
OTTOJS [dvY dTTLOTW. odev Se avTO rjyovfjiai ov
StSaKTOv elvai /x-qS* vtt* dvdpcoTTtov TrapaoKevaaTov
dvdpojTTOts, St/catd? et/xt etVetv. iyd) ydp Âdrj-
vaiovs, waTTep /cat ol dXXoL "KXXrjves, (f>rjixl ao-
(f>ovs elvai. opdj ovv, oTav avXXeyw/xev et? ttjv
eKKXrjaiav, CTretSar p.ev Txepl oiKoBopiLas tl herj
irpdât T'qv ttoXlv, tovs oiKoSofxovg pLeTaTrejXTTO-
fxevovs (JVfxôvXovs Trepi tcov OLKoSofMr]fx,dTOJV, OTav
Se TTepl vavTTrjylag, tovs vavTTTjyovs , /cat raAAa
C TrdvTa ovTOJS, dcra 'qyovvTai jjLadrjTa re /cat SiSa/cra
ett'af edv Se' tls aAAo? eTTi)(eLpfj avTols avp,-
ôvXevecv, ov eKeXvoi /jlt] otovrat h-qfXLOvpydv elvai,
Kav Tzdvv KaXog fj
/cat irXovaios /cat tcov yevvaioiv,
ovSev Ti /LtaAAoi^ dTToSexovTai, dXXd KaTayeXcoat
' Slv seel. Heindorf.

124
PROTAGORAS
arithmetic and astronomy and geometry and music
(and here he glanced at Hippias) whereas, if he
;
appUes to me, he will learn precisely and solely that

for which he has come. That learning consists of
good judgement in his own affairs, showing how best
to order his own home ; and in the affairs of his
city, showing how he may have most influence on
pubUc affairs both in speech and in action.
I wonder, whether I follow what you are
I said,
saying ; you appear to be speaking of the civic
for
science, and undertaking to make men good citizens.
That, Socrates, he rephed, is exactly the purport
of *vhat I profess.
Then a goodly accomplishment that you have
it is
acquired, to be sure, I remarked, if indeed you have

—
acquired it to such a man as you I may say sincerely
what I think. For this is a thing, Protagoras, that
I did not suppose to be teachable but when you
;
say it is, I do not see how I am to disbeheve it.

How I came to think that it cannot be taught, or
provided by men for men, I may be allowed to ex-
plain. I say, in common with the rest of the Greeks,
that the Athenians are >\ise. Now I observe, when
we are collected for the Assembly, and the city has
to deal with an affair of building, we send for builders
to adxise us on what is proposed to be built and ;
when it is a case of laying do^^n a ship, we send for

shipwrights and so in all other matters which are
;
considered learnable and teachable but if anyone

:
else, whom the people do not regard as a craftsman,

attempts to advise them, no matter how hand-
some and wealthy and well-born he may be, not one
^ of these things induces them to accept him ; they
merely laugh him to scorn and shout him down,
125
PLATO
/cai Oopvôvaiv, ecus dv r) auTO? (XTToaTfj 6 eTri-
X^tpoJv Xeyeiv Karadopv^-qdeis , rj ol roôrai avTov

a<f)€\KvacjL)aLV r^ i^dpojvrai KeXevovrcov rcbv rrpv-
ravecov. ovv a>v olovrai iv TexvQ etvai,
Trepl jxev
ovTO) SLaTTpdrrovraf iTTetSdv Se rt Trepl rrj^ TToAect)?
D Stot/cTjcrecD? herj ôvXevaaaOai, crunôvXeveL av-
Tots avL(jTdp.evo9 Trepl rovrcov o/xoico? p.ev reKrwv,
ofioLcos Se ;!âA/ceys', aKinoropLog, efXTTopos, vav-
KXrjpo<s, TrXovaios, Trevr]^, yevvalo?, dyevvrjg, /cat
rovTOLs ovSelg rovro eTnTrXijTrei oiOTrep rot?

TTporepov, oTi ovSafiodev fiadcvv, ouSe ovrog 8t-
Sacr/caAou ovdevog avrco, eVetra av/xôvXeveLV
eTrL-)(eipei' SrjXov ydp, on ovx r^yovvTai SiBaKTov
elvai. jj,r) roivvv on to kolvov rijs TToXeoj?
E ovTcos ^x^L, dXXd tSt'a rjfjiLV ol ao<j)coraroi /cat
apiOTOi rcbv ttoXctcov ravrr^v rrjv dperrjv t^v eôvaiv

ovx ^'^'^ "^^ aAAot? TTapaBiSouaL- errel HepiKXrjg,
6 Tomojvl rcbv veaviaKcov Trarrjp, rovrovg d p,ev
BiSaaKdXcov etx^TO KoXcbs Kal ed eTralSevaev, a Se
320 avros cro(f)6s eariv, ovre avros TratSeyet ovre rep
dXXcp TTapahiScocnv , dAA' avrol Trepuovres vepôvrai
(Zarrep d(f)eroi, edv ttov avr6p,aroi Trepirvx^JOUL rfj
dperfj. el Se ôvXei, KAetvtav, rdv 'AA/ct^taSou
rovrovt vecorepov dSeX(f>6v, eTnrpovevcjDV 6 avrog

ovrog dvTjp HepiKXrjg, SeStco? Trepl avrov fxrj
Siacfidapfj Srj vtto 'AXKt^tdSov, aTTOcrTrdaas (xtto
rovrov, Karadep,evog ev Âpic^povog eTralSeve- Kal
TTplv e^ firjvag yeyovevai, dveScvKe rovrco ovk
B exoiv d ri ;^7^CTatTO avrcb. /cat dXXov? aot Trapi.-
126
PROTAGORAS
until either the speaker retires from his attempt,
overborne by the clamour, or the tipstaves pull him
from his place or turn him out altogether by order
of the chair. Such is their procedure in matters
which they consider professional. But when they
have to deliberate on something connected with the
administration of the State, the man who rises to
advise them on this may equally well be a smith, a
shoemaker, a merchant, a sea-captain, a rich man, a
poor man, of good family or of none, and nobody
thinks of casting in his teeth, as one would in the
former case, that his attempt to give advice is justified
by no instruction obtained in any quarter, no guid-
ance of any master ; and ob\iously it is because
they hold that here the thing cannot be taught.
Nay further, it is not only so with the ser\ice of the
State, but in private life our best and wisest citizens
are unable to transmit this excellence of theirs to
others for Pericles, the father of these young fellows
;
here, gave them a first-rate training in the subjects for

which he found teachers, but in those of which he is
himself a master he neither trains them personally
nor commits them to another's guidance, and so they
go about grazing at will like sacred oxen, on the
chance of their picking up excellence here or there
for themselves. Or, if you like, there is Cleinias,
the younger brother of Alcibiades here, whom this
same Pericles, acting as his guardian, and fearing he
might be corrupted, I suppose, by Alcibiades, car-
ried off from his brother and placed in Ariphron's
family to be educated but before six months had
:
passed he handed him back to Alcibiades, at a

loss what to do ^vith him. And there are a great
many others whom I could mention to you as having
127
PLATO
TToXXovs €Xio Ae'yetv, ot avrol dyadol ovres ovSeva
TTcoTTore êXrioj eTroirjaav ovre tcl>v OLKeicov ovre
rujv aXXoTpicjv. iyoj ovu, <x>Upcorayopa, els
ravra aTTO^XeTTcav ov^ rjyoviJLai SiSaKTOv etvai
aperrjv ineiBrj Se aov d/couo) ravra Xeyovrog,
KaixTTTOfiai /cat olfiai. ri ere Xeyeiv 8ta ro rjyeiadai
ae TToXXojv fxev ejXTreipov yeyovevat, noXXa Se

IxepLadrjKivai, to. Se avTov iêvprjKevai. el ovv
e;;êis" evapyearepov rjpilv eTriSetât, cu? hihaKrov
C ear IV rj dpenj, fir) <f)dovrjcrr]?, oAA' eTrihetôv. 'AAA*,
a> HcoK pares, e(f)rj, ov (jyOovrjacn' aAAa irorepov
v/jLLV, <I)S TTpeapvrepos vecarepois, p.vOov Xeycov
eVtSei'^ct) Tj Xoyo) SceêXdcov ; ttoXXoI ovv avrco
VTTeXaôv rwv 7TapaKadr]fX€Vcov , onorepcog ôvXoiro,
ovrco Si€^L€vai. Ao/cet roivvv /xoi, €^17, X'^/aie-
arepov etvai fjivdov vfxlv Xeyeiv.

^Hv yap TTore xpovos, ore deol {xev rjaav, dvrjrd
D Se yevri ovk "qv. eTrecSr] Se /cat rovroig XP^^°^

rjXdev elfxapfjiivos yeveaeojs, rvrrovGLV avra deoi
yrjs evSov eK yrjg /cat TTvpos /Lttâvre? /cat rcbv oaa
TTvpl /cat yfj Kepavvvrai. eTTeiSrj^S^ dyeiv avra
TTpos (fjcos efJieXXov, rrpoaeraâv YlpofirÔel /cat
*E7n/XT7êt KoafirjaaL re /cat veX/xaL Svvdfieis e/ca-

aroLS ws TTpeTTei. Upofjurjdea Se TTapaireZrai
'KTTifiTqdevs avros vet/xat, veipiavrog S' efxov, e(f)rj,
E eTTLaKetpaL- /cat ovrco Treiaag ve/xei. vepicov Se

rots p.ev Icrxyv dvev rdxovg Trpoarjirre, rovg S
daOevearepovg rdêi eKocrfxei' rovg Se cuT/Atê,
128
;
PROTAGORAS
never succeeded, though virtuous themselves, in
making anyone else better, either of their own or
of other families. I therefore, Protagoras, in \aew
of these facts, believe that virtue is not teachable :
but when I hear you speak thus, I am swayed over,
and suppose there is something in what you say,
because I consider you to have gained experience
in many things and to have learnt many, besides
finding out some for yourself. So if you can demon-
strate to us more explicitly that virtue is teachable,
do not grudge us your demonstration.
No, Socrates, I will not grudge it you but shall
;
I, as an old man speaking to his juniors, put my

demonstration in the form of a fable, or of a regular
exposition ?
Many of the company sitting by him instantly
bade him treat his subject whichever way he pleased.
Well then, he said, I fancy the more agreeable
way is for me to tell you a fable.
There was once a time when there were gods, but
no mortal creatures. And when to these also came
their destined time to be created, the gods moulded
their forms within the earth, of a mixture made of
earth and fire and all substances that are compounded
with fire and earth. When they were about to bring
these creatures to light, they charged Prometheus
and Epimetheus to deal to each the equipment of
his proper faculty. Epimetheus besought Pro-
metheus that he might do the dealing himself
" And when I have dealt," he said, " you shall
examine." Having thus persuaded him he dealt ;
and in dealing he attached strength without speed

to some, while the weaker he equipped with speed ;
and some he armed, while devising for others, along

129
PLATO
rots' S' doirXov SlSovs <f>vaiv dXX-qv tlv* avrols
ifj,r]XO-vdro Svvafitv elg acorrjplav. d fxev yap
avrdjv aixiKpoTTjTL rjixTncrxe, TTTrjVov (f)vy7]v •)}
Kardyetov oiKrjaLV evepuev d 8e rjvê fieyedei,

321 TcpSe avTcp avrd ecrcoê' koI rdXXa ovtcos iTravicrcov
evefie. ravra 8e evXdêiav exojv [i-q

€p,-qxo-vdro
TL yevog d'Ccrrojdetrj' erretSi^ 8e avrols dXXrjXo-
(f)doptd)v Staûya? eTT-qpKeae, TTpos ras e/c Ato?

atpas evjJidpeLav epbrjxo-vdro dfx(f)ievvvs avrd ttv-
KvaZs re dpi^l /catarepeols Bepfiaaiv, Ikovols fJieu
dfxvvai, x^'-f^djva, Swarols 8e Kal Kavfiara, /cat
els evvds lovaiv ottcos virdpxoi ra avra ravra

arpoipLVT] OLKela re /cat avro(f>vrjg eKdcrro)' /cat
B V7t6 ttoBwv rd fxev oTrXals, rd Se ovv^t,^ /cat Sep/xaat

arepeols /cat dvaifxoLS- rovvrevdev rpo(f>as dXXots
dXXas i^€7T6pLl,€, rots p-ev e/c yrjs ôrdvrjv, aAAot?
8e SevSpcov Kapirovs, rots 8e pit,as' eari 8' ot?
eScDKev etvai rpo(f)rjV l,(x)cov dXXcov ôpdv /cat roZs
p,ev oXiyoyoviav TTpocr-qifje, rols 8 dvaXiaKopievois
VTTo rovrojv TroXvyovtav, acorrjplav ra> yevei tto-
pi^cov. are 8r] ovv ov ttovv ri ao(f)os cov 6 ETTt^Ty-
C devs eXaOev avrov KaravaXojaas rds hvvdp,eis els
rd dXoya' Xoittov 8rj dKoofirjrov en avra> rjv ro
dvdpd)7TCOv yevos, Kal -^TTopei 6 ri ;)^/0T7o-atTo.
dvopovvrL 8e avrcp epx^r ai Ilpop,7]6eus eTTiaKe-
ipop-evos rr)v vop.rjV, /cat opa rd pêv dXXa i^dja
e/xjLteAoj? TTavrojv exovra, rov 8e dvOpcoTTOV yvp-vov

re /cat dvviT6hr]rov /cat darpojrov /cat do-nXov
TJSr) Se /cat tj elpLappLevT] rjp-epa Traprjv, ev fj
ehet koX
dvdpcoTTOV e^teVat e/c yrjs els (f)d)s. airopia o5v
' duv^L Baiter : dpi^lv mss.
130
PROTAGORAS
with an unarmed condition, some different faculty
for preservation. To those which he invested with
smallness he dealt a winged escape or an under-
ground habitation ; those which he increased in
largeness he preserved by this very means ; and he
dealt all the other properties on this plan of com-
pensation. In contriving all this he was taking pre-
caution that no kind should be extinguished ; and
when he had equipped them with avoidances of
mutual destruction, he devised a provision against
the seasons ordained by Heaven, in clothing them
about with thick-set hair and solid hides, sufficient to
ward off winter yet able to shield them also from
the heats, and so that on going to their lairs they
might find in these same things a bedding of their
own that was native to each ; and some he shod
with hoofs, others with claws and solid, bloodless
hides. Then he proceeded to furnish each of them
with its proper food, some with pasture of the earth,
others with fruits of trees, and others again with
roots; and to a certain number for food he gave
other creatures to devour : to some he attached a
paucity in breeding, and to others, which were being
consumed by these, a plenteous brood, and so pro-
cured survival of their kind. Now Epimetheus, being
not so wise as he might be, heedlessly squandered
his stock of properties on the brutes ; he still had
left unequipped the race of men, and was at a
loss what to do with it. As he was casting about,
Prometheus arrived to examine his distribution, and
saw that whereas the other creatures were fully and
suitably provided, man was naked, unshod, unbedded,
unarmed and already the destined day was come,
;
whereon man like the rest should emerge from earth

131
PLATO
ixofxevos 6 Ylpo/jLTjdevs, -rjvTLva aorr-qpiav ra)
dvdpcoTTCp evpOL, /cAeTrrei '
H(f)al,aTov /cat Âdrjvdg
D TTjv evrexvov ao(j)iav avv TTvpL apirixcLVOv yap tjv —
avev TTVpos avrrjv KTT]r-qv to) rj XPV^^H'W y^v^~
—
aQai Kal ovtcv 8rj Scope trat dvdpwTTU). rrjv fxev
ovv TTepL rov piov ao(j)iav avdpoiTTOs ravrr) etrpê,
rrjv 8e ttoXitikt^v ovk el)(€v r^v yap Trapd rep Atr
TO) he Ylpo/jLiqdeL els fiev ttjv aKpoTToXiv rrjV rov
Ato? OLKrjGLV ovKeri eVeôlpet elaeXdeZv Trpos Se
Kal at Ato? (f>vXaKal (f)o^€pal rjoav els Se to rijs
E Âdrjvas Kal }i(f)aLcrrov OLKrjfjua to koivov, iv (L
'
e(f)L\oTexveiTr]v , Xadojv elaepxerai, /cat /cAe'i/ra? rrjv

re efiTTvpov rrjv rov 'HâtCTTOU /cat rrju
rexvrjv
dXXrjv rrjv ryjs Adrjvds hihcoaiv dvdpoiTTCp, /cat e/c
^
322 rovrov evrropia /xev dvOpcLrro) rod îov ylyverat,,

Ylpo/jiTjdea Se St' 'ETTt/xTjêa varepov, fffrep Xeyerai,
kXotttjs Slkt) fierrjXdev.
'KTreiBrj Se 6 dvdpcoTTog deiag jxereax^ yioipas,
npdjrov Sta rrjv rov deov ovyyeueiav t,(X)(jjv
fjiev
jjiovov deovs evopLiae, Kal eTrexctpet ôipuovs re

ISpveadaL /cat aydXp,ara decov eireira (f)covrjv Kal
ovofxara raxv hiiqpdpoiaaro rfj rexvf), Kal oiKijacLs
Kal iaOijras Kal vrroSecxeis Kal arpcvpuvas Kal rds
e/c yrjs rpo^ds rjvpero. ovrco 8r) rrapecrKevaGfievoL
icar' dpxds dvOpajnot cokovv aTTopdSrjv, TToXeis Se
B OVK âav dTTCoXXvvro ovv vtto rcbv drjpicov Sta ro
TTavraxfj avrwv dcrdevearrepoL elvai, Kal rj 8rjjj,Lovp-
yLKTj rexvr) avrolg Trpos p.ev rpo(f>r]v LKavrj ôrjdos
rjv, Trpos Se rov rwv dripia>v TToXefiov ivSe'qs'
TToXLriKTjv yap rexvrjv ovttco etxov, -^s" p-epos ttoXc-
piiK-q. et^-qrovv hrj ddpoitêadai Kal aa)t,eaOai
'
i.e. of arts originally apportioned to gods alone.
132
PROTAGORAS
to light. Then Prometheus, in his perplexity as to
what preservation he could devise for man, stole
from Hephaestus and Athena wisdom in the arts
—
together with fire since by no means without fire
could it be acquired or helpfully used by any and —
he handed it there and then as a gift to man. Now
although man acquired in this way the wisdom of
daily life, civic wisdom he had not, since this was in
the possession of Zeus Prometheus could not make
;
so free as to enter the citadel which is the dwelling-

place of Zeus, and moreover the guards of Zeus were
terrible but he entered unobserved the building
:
shared by Athena and Hephaestus for the pursuit

of their arts, and stealing Hephaestus's fiery art and
allAthena's also he gave them to man, and hence it
is man gets facility for his livelihood, but
that
Prometheus, through Epimetheus' fault, later on
(the story goes) stood his trial for theft.
And now that man was partaker of a divine
portion,^ he, in the first place, by his nearness of
kin to deity, was the only creature that worshipped
gods, and set himself to establish altars and holy
images and secondly, he soon was enabled by his
;
skill to articulate speech and words, and to invent

dwellings, clothes, sandals, beds, and the foods that
are of the earth. Thus far provided, men dwelt
separately in the beginning, and cities there were
none ; so that they were being destroyed by the
wild beasts, since these were in all ways stronger
than they ; and although their skill in handiwork
was a sufficient aid in respect of food, in their warfare
with the beasts it was defective ; for as yet they
had no civic art, which includes the art of war. So
they sought to band themselves together and secure
133
PLATO
Krit,ovr€g TroAets" ot ovv ddpoLadetev, rjSLKovv
aAAijXovs are ovk exovres rrjv ttoXltckt^v Te)(VT]v,
C ojGTe iraXiv aKehavvvfxevoL hL€(f)deipovro. Zey? ovv

oeiaas rrepl r<x> yivei 'q/xajv, fxrj aTroAotro Trdv,
Kpfiijv TTepLTtei ayovra els dvdpcoTTovs alScj re /cat
BlKTjV, tv* €L€U TToXcCjOV KOCTfJbOL TC Kal SeCT/XOt ^tAttt?
avuaycoyoL. ipcora ovv 'Eip/jirjs Ala, rlva ovv

TpoTTOv BoLT} SIk7)v Kal alSco dvdpCOTTOtS' TTOTepOV
(I)S at rexvai vevejjirjvTai, ovroi kol ravras velfiu);
vevefiTjvrai 8e cuSe* et? excov laTpLKrjv ttoXXols
LKavos IStioratg, Kal ot aAAot SrjfjiLovpyol' Kal
81kt]v St] Kal atScD ovtco dco iv rolg dvdpcoTTOLS, t]
D inl Trdvras veifioj; im iravras, e<f>rj 6 ZeJ?, Kal

TTOvreg fxerexovToyv ov yap dv yevoLvro TrdAetj, et
oAtyot avra}v pLerexoiev oiairep dXKoiv rexydv /cat
vofiov ye deg irap^ efiov, tov firj Swafxevov alSovs

Kal SiKTjg fierexî-v KreiveLV (hs voaov TroAecus".
oirrco hrj, d> HcvKpare?, Kal Sta ravra ot re aAAot
/cat 'Adr^vaioi, orav fiev rrepl dperrjs TCKTOviK-fjs fj
Xoyos 7] dXXr]s rivos SrjfjuovpyLKrjs, oAtyot? otovrai

E ixerelvai avfxôvXrjg, Kal edv rts cktos (x}v tcov
oXiyoiV avfiôvXevj] , ovk dvexovrai, oi? av ^17? *
elKOTOJS, a>? iyo) (f)r]fXL' orav 8e els crvfMôvXrjv

323 TToAiTt/CT^? dpeTrjs tcoaiv, rjv Set Std SiKaioavvr]^
TTaaav levat, Kal aoj(f)poavv-qs, elKorcos diravTOs dv-
Spos dvexovrai, d>s Travrl TTpocrfJKov ravrris ye
fji€T€X€tv TTJs dperfjs, ri /xrj elvai TToXeis. avrr], c5
JjcoKpares, tovtov atria* tt'a Se /xrj oir) aTrardarOai,
(Ls TO) ovri rjyovvTai Trdvres dvdpoiTrot Tiavra dvSpa
134
PROTAGORAS
their livesby founding cities. Now as often as they
were banded together they did WTong to one another
through the lack of civic art, and thus they began
to be scattered again and to perish. So Zeus, fearing
that our race was in danger of utter destruction,
sent Hermes to bring respect and right among men,
to the end that there should be regulation of cities and
friendly ties to draw them together. Then Hermes
asked Zeus in what manner then was he to give
men right and respect " Am I to deal them out
:
as the arts have been dealt ? That dealing was

done in such wise that one man possessing medical
art is able to treat many ordinary men, and so with
the other craftsmen. Am I to place among men
right and respect in this way also, or dealthem out
to all ? " " To all," rephed Zeus " let
; all have
their share ; for cities cannot be formed if only a
few have a share of these as of other arts. And
make thereto a law of my ordaining, that he who
cannot partake of respect and right shall die the
death as a public pest." Hence it comes about,
Socrates, that people in cities, and especially in
Athens, consider it the concern of a few to advise
on cases of artistic excellence or good craftsmanship,
and if anyone outside the few gives advice they
disallow it, as you say, and not without reason, as I
think : but when they meet for a consultation on
civic art, where they should be guided throughout
by justice and good sense, they naturally allow advice
from everybody, since it is held that everyone
should partake of this excellence, or else that states
cannot be. This, Socrates, is the explanation of
it. And that you may not think you are mistaken,
to show how all men verily believe that everyone
135
PLATO
fxerexîv SiKaLoavv-qg re /cat rrjg dXXrj^ TToXiTiKTJg
dperrjs, roSe au Xaê reKfJLifjpLov . iv yap rats
oAAats" aperat?, coaTTep av X4yeis, idv rL<; (f)fj
dyados avXr]T7)g eivai, rj dXXrjv rjVTLVovv r€)(yi^v,
7]v jxrj iariv, 7] KarayeXcoatu rj ;!âAe7ra6Voi;o-i, /cat
ol OLKCLOL TTpoaiovres vovderovaiv cLs fxaLvofMevov

B ei' Se SLKaLocrvvfi /cat iv rfj dXXr) TToXiriKfj dperfj,
idv Tcva /cat elScoaiv on aSt/cd? iariv, idv ovtos
avros Kad^ avrov TdXrjdrj Xiyrj ivavriov ttoXXcjv, o
iK€L aco(f)po<Tvvrjv Tjyovvro elvai, rdiX-qOfj Xiyeiv,
ivravda piavlav, /cat (f)aaiv Trdvras Setv ^dvai elvai
SiKaiovs, idv re wglv idv re fi-q, t] p.aiveadaL
Tov fxri TTpooTTOiovfievov SiKaioavvqv cos dvayKalov
C ovSiva ovTLv* oy;^t ajxcos yi ttws /xcrixeiv avrrjs, "^
fx,7] etvai iv dvdpcoTTois.

"On fxev oSv irdvT dvSpa elKorcos dnoSixovrat
TTcpl rarjTTjs tt]S dpeTrjs avfJiôvXov Sta ro 'qyeZadai
iravrl fx^reZvai avTrjs, ravra Xiyoj' ort 8e avrrjv
ov cf)va€i rjyovvraL etvai ov8' dno tov avrofidrov,
dXXd SiSaKTov T€ /cat i^ impLeXeias Trapayiyveadai
a> dv TTapayLyvr^raL, rovro aoi p,era tovto ttci-
D pdaop,aL aTToSetât. ocra yap riyovvrai dXXriXovs

/ca/ca e;)(etv dvdpcoiTOL (fyvaei rj rvxj), ouSeis" 6vp,ovTai
ovSe vovderel ouSe StSaa/cet ouSe /coAaêt rovs
ravra exovras, Iva fir) roiovroi (haw, aXX iXeov-
aiv otov rovs alaxpovs rj a/jiLKpovs '^ dadevets ris
ovrojs dv6r]ros, uxire ri rovrcov imx^Lpelv ttoiclv;
ravra p,ev ydp, olpai, laaaiv on </>y(7et re /cat
rvxjl Tols dvdpojTTOis yiyverai, rd /caAd /cat rdvav-

\S6
PROTAGORAS
partakes of justice and the rest of civic virtue, I can
offer yet a further proof. In all other excellences,
as you say, when a man professes to be good at
flute-playing or any other art in which he has no
such skill, they either laugh him to scorn or are
annoyed with him, and his people come and reprove
him for being so mad : but where justice or any
other civic virtue is involved, and they happen to
know that a certain person is unjust, if he confesses
the truth about his conduct before the public, that
truthfulness which in the former arts they would
regard as good sense they here call madness. Every-
one, they say, should profess to be just, whether he
is so or not, and whoever does not make some pre-
tension to justice is mad ; since it is held that all
without exception must needs partake of it in some
way or other, or else not be of human kind.
Take my word for it, then, that they have good
reason for admitting everybody as adviser on this
virtue, owing to their belief that everyone has some
of it ; and next, that they do not regard it as
natural or spontaneous, but as something taught
and acquired after careful preparation by those who
—
acquire it, of this I will now endeavour to convince
you. In all cases of evils which men deem to have
befallen their neighbours by nature or fortune,
nobody is wroth with them or reproves or lectures
or punishes them, when so afflicted, with a view to
their being other than they are ; one merely pities
them. Who, for instance, is such a fool as to try
to do anything of the sort to the ugly, the puny,
or the weak ? Because, I presume, men know that
it is by nature and fortune that people get these
things, the graces of life and their opposites. But
137
—
PLATO
Tia rouTois" oaa Be e^ eTrt/xeAeia? /cat do-KTycrecos
/cat BiSaxrjS olovrat yiyveadai dyaOa dvOpcoTroi?,
E idv Tts" ravra fxrj exjj, aAAo. ravavrta ToJrcot' /ca/cct,
TOUTOt? TTOU ot Tc
e77t dv/xol yiyvovTai Kol at
Kat at vovder-qaeis
woActCTets' cov iarlv ev /cat rj
•
aSt/cta /cat rj aaeêia /cat avXXy^^Sr^v irdv to

324 ivavTiov rrjs ttoXitlktjs dperrjs' evda 8rj nds navrl
dvjjiovTai /cat vovOeTci, SrjXov on cos e^ eTrt/xeAeta?
/cat jjLadtâecog Krrjrrjs ova-qs. el yap edeXei?
evvorjaai ro KoXdêtv, c5 Sco/cpare?, rovg aSt/cow-
ra? Tt TTore Swarat, avro ae StSafei, oVt ot ye
dvdpcoTTOi rjyovvrai, TrapacrKevaarov elvai dperrjv.
ovhels ydp /coAaêt rovg dSt/cowra? Trpo? rovrco rov
B I'ow e;(a;v /cat toutou
eVe/ca, ort rj^LKYjaev, oaris
fiT) (ZaTTep dXoyiarcos TLfMcopelraL- 6 Se
drfpiov
fierd Xoyov eTn^êipcbv KoXdêiv ov rov nap-
eXrjXvdoros eve/ca dSt/CT^yuaros" rtâjpetrat ov ydp
dv TO ye Trpaxêv dyevrjrov deirj dAAd rov [xeX- —
XovTOS ;\;dpti/, tva /jltj avQis dSiKijar) pL-iqre avros
ovros p^rjre dXXos 6 rovrov IBdiv KoXaadevra' /cat
TOtavrrjv ScdvoLav exojv Stavoelrat Traihevrriv elvai
dpeTrjV dTTorpoTrrjs yovv eVe/ca /coAd^ct. Tavrrjv
C ovv rrjv Boâv navres exovaiv, daonrep rip^copovvrai
/cat tSta /cat Srj/xoaLa' TLjxcupovvrai Se /cat KoXd-
ôvTat ot re d'AAot dvOpcuTTOi ovs dv oicovraL
dBiKeiv, /cat ovx rjKiara 'AOrjvaioi, ot aot TToXirat'
Oiare Kard rovrov rov Xoyov koX KQr\vaioi eloi
rGiv rfyovp-evoiv napaaKevaardv elvai /cat StSa/cTov
dperrjv. co? p.ev ovv elKortos dTroSexovrat ot ctoi
TToAtTat /cat ;;âA/cea)S" /cat aKvrorojxov avfiôv-
XevovTos rd TroAtTt/cd, /cat oTt StSa/CTov /cat napa-
138
PROTAGORAS
as to the good things that people are supposed
all
to get by application and practice and teaching,
where these are lacking in anyone and only their
opposite evils are found, here surely are the occasions
for wrath and punishment and reproof. One of them
is injustice, and impiety, and in short all that is
opposed to civic virtue in such case anyone will

;
be wroth with hisneighbour and reprove him, clearly

because the virtue is to be acquired by application
and learning. For if you will consider punishment,
Socrates, and what control it has over ^vrong-doers,
the facts will inform you that men agree in regarding
virtue as procured. No one punishes a wrong-doer
from the mere contemplation or on account of his
wrong-doing, unless one takes unreasoning vengeance
like a wild beast. But he who undertakes to punish
with reason does not avenge himself for the past
offence, since he cannot make what was done as
though it had not come to pass he looks rather to
;
the future, and aims at preventing that particular

person and others who see him punished from doing
wrong again. And being so minded he must have
in mind that virtue comes by training :for you
observe that he punishes to deter. This then is the
accepted \êw of all who seek requital in either
private or public life and while men in general
;
exact requital and punishment from those whom

they suppose to have wronged them, this is especially
the case with the Athenians, your fellow-citizens,
so that by our argument the Athenians also share
the view that virtue is procured and taught. Thus
I have shown that your fellow-citizens have good
reason for admitting a smith's or cobbler's counsel
in pubUc affairs, and that they hold virtue to be
139
PLATO
D OKevaarov rjyovvTai, dper-qv, dTroSeSeiKTaC aoi, w
"Ert 817 XoiTTT) aTTopia iaTLv, rjv dTTopeis trepi

rcov dvSpojv Tcbv dyadcov, ri h-qTTore ol dvSpes ol
ayadol rd fiev a'AAa rovg avrcov vlel'S StSaCT/coyatr, a
BSaaKaXcov e;êTat, /cat aoôvg ttolovctlv, tjv Se
avroL dperrjv dyadoi, ovSevog ^cXtLovs ttolovol.
Tovrov hr) rripL, cL YiCOKpares, ovkctl fxvdov aoi
ipco, aAAa Xoyov. tSSe yap ivvoriaov TTorepov
E ecTTt Ti eV, Tj ovK €<7TLV, ov dvayKalov Travrag tovs
TToXiras fJi€r€X€tv, eiirep /xeAAet ttoAi? etvai; ev
TOVTcp yap avTTj Xverai rjav aTTopeXs, f]
dTTopca, t^v
dXXoOi ovSafxov. 61 fJi€V yap earL /cat tovto eari

TO ev ov reKTOVLKrj ov8e ;!âA/ceta ovde /cepa/xeta,
aAAa hLKaLoavvT) /cat acocf)poavvr] /cat to ocriov
325 eivat, /cat avXXij^Brjv €v avro Trpoaayopevco elvai
dvSpog dperi^v el tout' eariv, ov Set TravTa?
fxerexeLV /cat fxerd rovrov Travr dvSpa, idv /cat n
aAAo ôvXrjrat jxavdaveiv r^ Trpdrreiv, ovto) Trpar-
reiv, dvev Se tovtov fitj, ^ rov p.'q p.erexovTa /cat
SiSaor/ceti' /cat KoXdêtv, /cat TratSa /cat dvhpa /cat
yvvaiKa, eojanep dv KoXat,6[xevos êXrimv y€vr]Tai,
OS S' dv fXTj inraKOvrj KoXal,6p,evos /cat StSaor/co/xevos",
B <Ls dviarov ovra tovtov eK^dXXeiv e/c Tibv TToXecov
7] diTOKTeiveLV el ovtoj fiev exei, ovrco 8 avrov
TTetpvKOTOS ol dyaOol dvSpeg el rd fiev dXXa ot-
SdcrKovraL rovs vlels, tovto 8e fi-q, OKeipai cos
OavfjidaioL^ yiyvovrai ol dyadoi. on fxev yap
SiBaKTOV avro rjyovvrai /cat t8ia /cat 87^/i.oota,
direheiâpiev 8t8a/cTo{; 8e ovros /cat deparrevTov ra

[lev aAAa apa rovs vlels ScBdaKovrat., e(f>' ols ovK
^ davfidffioi Kroschel : Oavfxaalws Mss.
140
PROTAGORAS
taught and procured : of this I have given you
satisfactory demonstration, Socrates, as it appears
to me.
j% I have yet to deal with your remaining problem
— about good men, why it is that these good men have
their sons taught the subjects in the regular teachers'
courses, and so far make them wise, but do not make
them excel in that virtue wherein consists their own
goodness. On this point, Socrates, I shall give you
argument instead of fable. Now consider is there, :
or is there not, some one thing whereof all the

citizens must needs partake, if there is to be a city ?
Here, and nowhere if not here, is the solution of this
problem of yours. For if there is such a thing, and
that one thing, instead of being the joiner's or
smith's or potter's art, is rather justice and temper-
ance and holiness —
in short, what I may put
together and call a man's virtue and if it is this
;
whereof all should partake and wherewith everyone

should proceed to any further knowledge or action,
but should not if he lacks it if we should instruct and
;
punish such as do not partake of it, whether child

or husband or wife, until the punishment of such
persons has made them better, and should cast forth
from our cities or put to death as incurable whoever
fails to respond to such punishment and instruction ;
— if it is like this, and yet,

nature being so, good
its
men have their sons instructed in everything else but
this, what very surprising folk the good are found to
be ! For we have proved that they regard this thing
as teachable both in private and in public life, and
then, though it may be taught and fostered, are we
to say that they have their sons taught everything
VOL. IV F 141
PLATO
CCTTt ddvaros rj ^r^/xia, iav /j-rj inLaTOiVTai, i(f)^ (L
8c rj re t,'t]iJiia ddvaros avrcov rots Traial /cat
C (f>v'yal jJiTj fiadovai fjirjSe depaTrevdelaLv els dpeT-qv,
/cat Trpos rip davdrcp ;^/37^/xaTaj>' re Syj/jievaeis /cat
(x)S eTTOS etTTelv av?0^'q^Sr]v rcov olkcov dvarpo-nai,
ravra 8 apa ov SiSaCT/corrat ov8' eTn/jieXovvrat
TToiaav eTTifieXeLav ; o'Uadai ye XPV> ^ ^coKpares.
E/c TratSojv afiiKptov dp^dfievot, p-expi ovirep
av ^cDcrt, /cat SiSacr/coucrt /cat vovOerovaiv. eneiSdv
Odrrov ovvifj ri? rd Xeyofieva, /cat rpo(f>6s /cat
fjLT^rrjp /cat TzatSaycayos' /cat auro? o Trarrjp nepl
D rovrov Bia/xdxovrai, oncos (hs êXricrros earai.

6 TTois, nap eKaarov kox epyov /cat Xoyov 8t8a-
aKovres kox evSeLKvvfievoi, on ro p.ev hiKaiov, ro
'
he o-Slkov, /cat roBe fxev KaXov, roSe Se alaxpov,

/cat ToSe p,ev ocnov, roSe Se dvoaiov, /cat rd fxeu
TToiei, rd he fir) noiei' /cat edv fxev eKcov Tretdrjrat'
el he fxrj, wairep ^vXov hLaarpe(j>6pLevov /cat /ca/Lt-
TTrofxevov evOvvovatv dTretXals /cat TrXrjyals. p,erd
he ravra els StSacr/caAwv TrifXTTovres ttoXv udXXov
evreXXovrai empieXeladai evKoapiias rcov iraihwu
E yj ypajjcp-droiv re Kal KidapiaeoiS' ol he hihd-
CT/caAot rovriov re eTnpLeXovvrai, /cat eirethdv av
ypdfxpara fj,d6coaL /cat pLeXXa>ai rd crvvqaetv
yeypa/jLfjLeva, wanep rore rrjvnapa-^(ovqv,
rt-deaaiv avrols eVt ribv ^ddpcuv dvayiyvwaKeiv
7roi't]rcbv dyadibv TTonjuara Kal eK/xavdaveLv avay-
326 Kaôvatv, ev ols TToXXal puev vovder-qaeis eveuai,
TToXXal he hieôhoi Kal erraivoi /cat eyKOipaa
vaXaLcov dvhpcov dyaOcov, tva 6 Trai? l,riX6jv /xt-
fxijrai Kal opey-qrai, roiovros yeveaOai. ot r
aS Kidapiaral, erepa roiavra, aco(f>pocrvvr]s re
142
PROTAGORAS
in which the penalty for ignorance is not death, but
in a matter where the death-penalty or exile awaits
their children if not instructed and cultivated in
—
virtue and not merely death, but confiscation of
property and practically the entire subversion of their
—
house here they do not have them taught or take
the utmost care of them ? So at any rate we must
conclude, Socrates.
They teach and admonish them from earliest child-
hood till the last day of their lives. As soon as one
of them grasps what is said to him, the nurse, the
mother, the tutor, and the father himself strive hard
that the child may excel, and as each act and word
occurs they teach and impress upon him that this is
just, and that unjust, one thing noble, another base,
one holy, another unholy, and that he is to do this,
—
and not do that. If he readily obeys, so ; but if not,
they treat him as a bent and twisted piece of wood
and straighten him with threats and blows. After
this they send them to school and charge the master
to take far more pains over their children's good
behaviour than over their letters and harp-playing.
The masters take pains accordingly, and the children,
when they have learnt their letters and are getting
to understand the written word as before they did
only the spoken, are furnished with works of good
poets to read as they sit in class, and are made to
learn them off by heart : here they meet with many
admonitions, many descriptions and praises and
eulogies of good men in times past, that the boy in
envy may imitate them and yearn to become even
as they. Then also the music-masters, in a similar
148
PLATO
CTTi/LieAouvTat Kal ottcos av oi vioi fi-qSev KaKovp-
yojaf 77/30?8e rovTOfs, cTretSav' K(.dapit,€iv /xa-
dcoaiv, aXXcov av TTOi-qrcov dyadcov TTOir^jxara
B SiSctCT/ôuCTt jjieXoTTOiojv, €LS Ttt Kidapiaixara ev-
T€LVOvT€s, Kal Tovg pvOfiovs re Kal rag app.oviag
avayKatôvaiv oiKeLOvadai rats ipvôits ra>v Traihcov,
Iva r)iJL€pa)T€poL re coat, /cat evpvd/JiOTepoi Kat
evapfiocrrorepoL yi,yv6fj,€voL ;^/37ycri/xoi cScrti' els ro
Xeyeiv re Kal TTpdrreiv' irds ydp 6 j8to? rod av-
dpwTTOV evpvdfiias re Kal evapfjiocrrlag Setrai. en
roivvv trpos rovrois els TraiSorpiôv TrefXTTOvcnv,
tva rd (Tiofxara êXrioi eôvres VTTrjpercbcn rfj
Q Stavoia XRV^''"!} o^^7]> '^^^ H'V dvayKa^covrai,
OLTTOêiXLav Sid rrjv TTOvr^piav rcov acofidrcov Kat
ev rols TToXefiois Kal ev rals aAAai? irpdêai'
Kal ravra TroLovaiv ol fidXiara hvvdp,evoi' p,dXtara
he Svvavrai ol TrXovaitoraroi' Kal ol rovrcov viels,
TTpco'Cairara els SiSacrKaXcov ri]s rjXiKLas dp^d/xevoi
(l>OLrdv,oxpiairara aTraXXdrrovrai eirethdv Se eK .
hihaaKoXuiv dTraXXaychaiv , r] ttoXis av rovs re

vofiovs dvayKaêi fiavddveLV Kal /card rovrovs CtJv
D Kaddirep^ 7ra/)dSety/xa, ti'a fXT] avrol e(^' avrcou
elKfj TTpdrrojGLV, dAA' drexvdJs (Zanep ol ypafxpâ-
riaral rols ixrJTTCo heLVols ypdêiv rdv Traiooiv
vnoypdi/javres ypajxjxds rjj ypa<j>ihi, ovro) ro
ypafjifxarelov StSoaai Kal dvayKatôvai ypd(f>eiv
/caret rriv v(f)'qyriaLv ru)v ypa/xficov, oj? Se /cat
7) dyadojv Kal TraXaicou

TToXis vofxovs VTToypdi/jaaa,
vofiodercov evprjiiara, /caret rovrovs dvay/cctêt
/cat dpxî'V Kal apxâdai' os 8' av eKros âLvrf
rovrcov, KoXdêi, Kal ovofjba ri] KoXdaei ravrr)
^ Kaddirep Heindorf : Kara M33.
144
PROTAGORAS
sort, take pains for their self-restraint, and see that
their young charges do not go A^Tong : moreover,
when they learn to play the harp, they are taught
the works of another set of good poets, the song-
makers, while the master accompanies them on the
harp and they insist on famiUarizing the boys' souls
;
with the rhythms and scales, that they may gain in

gentleness, and by advancing in rhythmic and har-
monic grace may be efficient in speech and action ;
for the whole of man's Ufe requires the graces of
rhythm and harmony. Again, over and above
all this, people send their sons to a trainer, that
having improved their bodies they may perform

the orders of their minds, which are now in
fit condition, and that they may not be forced by
bodily faults to play the coward in wars and other

duties. This is what people do, who are most able ;
and the most able are the wealthiest. Their sons
begin school at the earhest age, and are freed from
it at the latest. And when they are released from
their schoohng the city next compels them to learn
the laws and to live according to them as after a
pattern, that their conduct may not be swayed by
their own light fancies, but just as writing-masters
first draw letters in faint outhne with the pen for
their less advanced pupils, and then give them the
copy-book and make them write according to the
guidance of their hnes, so the city sketches out for
them the laws de\'ised by good lawgivers of yore, and
constrains them to govern and be governed according
to these. She punishes anyone who steps outside
these borders, and this punishment among you and
145
—
PLATO
E /cat Trap v\iXv koX dXXodi TToXXaxov, cos evdv-
vovoTjs rrjs SiKrjg, evdvvai. roaavTTjg ovv tt]s
imixeXelas ovarjs Trepl dpcrrjs tSt'a /cat S-qnoata,
Oavfjidêis, c5 TicoKpares, /cat aTTopeis, et StSa/crdv
eoTLV dperrj; aAA' ov XPV davp,d!l,€LV, aAAa ttoXv
fjidXXov, et ^17 StSa/CToi'.
Atd Tt ovv Tojv dyaddjv Trarepcov ttoXXoI vUls
(fyavXoL yiyvovTat; rovro av fidOe' ovdev yap
davfjiaarov, ctnep dXr]drj eyoi iv tols efXTTpoadev
eXcyov, on rovrov rov Trpdynaros, rijs dperrjs,
327 ^l /Lte'AAet TToXis elvai, ovSeva Set iStcDTeuetv.
et yap Srj o Xeyco ovrws e;)êt €)(€t Se ixaXiara
TrdvTiov ovTOJS —iv6vp,'qdrjTL dXXo rcov iTTLrrjBevjxa-
Tcov oTiovv /cat fiadrjfxdrcov TrpoeXofxevos. et put]
olov t' "qv ttoXlv elvai, et [Mrj Trdvres avX-qral rjpiev,
oTTotos Tt? iSvvaro €Kaaros, /cat rovro /cat iSta

/cat Srjpioola Trds Trdvra /cat eStSacr/ce /cat CTre'-
TrXrjrre rov fir] KaXd>s avXovvra, /cat p,r) i<f)dov€i

rovrov, ojaTrep vvv rwv htKalcov /cat rdiv vopiip^cov
B oySet? (f)9ov€l ovS* dTTOKpvTrrerai, woTrep rcov
aAAcov rexvqfJidrcov AuatreAei ydp, otyttat, i^/Att'
rf dXX'qXcov hiKaiocrvvrj /cat dperrj' Sia ravra Trds

TTOvrl TTpodvficos. Xfyei /cat StSaa/cet /cat to. St/cata
/cat Ta vofjLiiJia' et oft' omo) /cat ev auAi^crei
Trdaav TTpodvfMLav /cat d^Soviav e'lxofJLCv dXXijXovs
SiSdaKCLv, otei ai' Tt, e07^, fidAXov, a> HcoKpares,
T&v dyaOiov avXrjrdiv dyaOovs avXrjrds rovg

vtets" yiyveadai rj rctjv (j>avXo}v; //olpuai fieu ov,
C dAAct orov ervx^v 6 vlos €V(f)V€crraros yevofxevos

et? avXrjaLV, ovrog dv eAAdyt/iO? "qv^rjOr], orov
146
PROTAGORAS
in many other cities, from the corrective purpose of
the prosecution, is called a Correction.'^ Seeing then
that so much care is taken in the matter of both
private and public virtue, do you wonder, Socrates,
and make it a great difficulty, that virtue may be
taught ? Surely there is no reason to wonder at that:
you would have far greater reason, if it were not so.
Then why is it that many sons of good fathers turn
out so meanly ? Let me explain this also it is no:
wonder, granted that I was right in stating just now

that no one, if we are to have a city, must be a mere
layman in this affair of virtue. For if what I say is
— —
the case and it is supremely true reflect on the
nature of any other pursuit or study that you choose
to mention. Suppose that there could be no state
unless we were all flute-players, in such sort as each
was able, and suppose that everyone were gi\ing his
neighbour both private and public lessons in the art,
and rebuked him too, if he failed to do it well, without
—
grudging him the trouble even as no one now thinks
of grudging or reserving his skill in what is just and
lawful as he does in other expert knowledge ; for
our neighbours' justice and virtue, I take it, is to our
advantage, and consequently we all tell and teach
one another what is just and la^-ful well, if we —
made the same zealous and ungrudging efforts to
instruct each other in flute-playing, do you think,
Socrates, that the good flute-players would be more
likely than the bad to have sons who were good flute-
players ? I do not think they would no, wherever
:
the son had happened to be bom with a nature most

apt for flute-playing, he would be found to have
* The public inquiry to which a magistrate was liable after
his term of office.
147
PLATO
Be d(f)Vt]s, d/cAei^s" Kal TToAAa/ct? fiev dyadov
avXrjrov (f)avXos av OLTre^-q, TroAAa/ctS' 8' o.v (f)avXov
dyoLdos' aAA' ovv avXr^ral y a.v^ Trdvres rjarav
IkovoI cos TTpos rovs iStajxa? /cat fxrjSev avX-qaecJS

€7TatovTas. ovTios oXov /cat vvv, ocrns aoi dSt-
Kwrdtos (jiaiverai, dvdpcoTTOS rG)v ev vofxois /cat
dvdpcjTTois reOpajxpbivojv , hiKaiov avrov elvai /cat
D hripLiovpyov rovrov rov TTpdyp,aros, et Seoi avrov

Kpiveadat rrpog dvOpionovs, ols fJL'qTe TratSet'a
earl p,rjT€ SiKaar-^pia ixrjre v6p,oi /at^Sc dvdyKT]
firjiPefiLa dvayKdCovcra dpei-^s iTTtfie'
§ta Tra vros
Xeiadoij dXX' etev dypioi rives, oloiTTep ovs Trepvcri^^^
' 9epeKpdr7js 6 TTOirjrrjs iStSaêv eirl Ar)vaicp. //-q '^T^
a(f)6Spa ev rots roLovrois dvdpwTTOis y€v6p.evos,
warrep ol ev eKeivco rco X^PV P'i'CrdvdpcoTTOL, dya-
TTTjCTats" dv, el evrvxois ^vpv^drco /cat ^pvvcovSa,
E /cat dvoXo<f>vpaC dv TTodcbv ttjv rcov evddhe dvdpcoTrojv
TTOVTjpLav' vvv Se rpv(f)as, cS TicoKpares, Stori

TTavres StSdcr/coAot elaiv dperijs, Kad' oaov 8u-
vavrat eKacrros, Kal ovSets ool (f)aiver ai' eld*,
axnrep dv el ^rjrols rls SiSda/caAo? rov eXX-qvlêiv,
328 oi)S' dv els <f>aveir], ov8e y dv, olfiat, el ^rjrols
ris dv Tj/jLLv StSdête rovs rcJov ;(et/3ore;î'a>i' uiets'
avrrjv ravrrjv rrjv rexvrjv, rjv Srj irapd rov narpos
fiep,adT]KaaL, Kad oaov olos t' -^v 6 irarrjp /cat
ol rov TTarpos ovres 6p,6rexyoi, rovrovs en

<f)tXoi
ris dv hSdêiev , ov pdStov olp-ai elvac, cL HcoKpares,

rovrcov SiSdoKaXov )avrjvai
(l
. rrdjv 8e direipcjjv
"navrdrraac pdSiov, ovro) Se dperrjs Kal rcov dXXoiv
' 7* Siu Shilleto: 70C1' mss.
148
PROTAGORAS
advanced to distinction, and where unapt, to ob-
scurity. Often the son of a good player would turn
out a bad one, and often of a bad, a good. But, at
any rate, all would be capable players as compared
with ordinary persons who had no inkling of the art.
Likewise in the present case you must regard any
man who appears to you the most unjust person
ever reared among human laws and society as a just
man and a craftsman of justice, if he had to stand
comparison with people who lacked education and
law courts and laws and any constant compulsion to
the pursuit of virtue, but were a kind of wild folk such
as Pherecrates the poet brought on the scene at last
year's Lenaeum.^ Sure enough, if you found your-
self among such people, as did the misanthropes
among his chorus, you would be very glad to meet
with Eurybatus and Phrj'nondas,^ and would bewail
yourself with longing for the wickedness of the people
here. Instead of that you give yourself dainty airs,
Socrates, because everyone is a teacher of virtue to
the extent of his powers, and you think there is no
teacher. Why, you might as well ask who is a teacher
of Greek ; you would find none anywhere and I
;
suppose you might ask, who can teach the sons of our
artisans the very crafts which of course they have
learnt from their fathers, as far as the father was
competent in each case, and his friends who followed
—
the same trade, I say if you asked who is to give
these further instruction, I imagine it would be hard,
Socrates, to find them a teacher, but easy enough in
the case of those starting with no skill at all. And
so it must be with virtue and everything else ;if
^ Adramatic festival, chiefly for comedies, held about

the end of January. '^
Two notorious rogues.
VOL. IV F 2 149
PLATO
TTOLVTcov dXXa Koiv el oXlyov eart, tls ootls 8ta-
B (f>€p€i rj/xcov TTpo^L^daaL elg dper-qv, dyarrrjrov.
(x}V St] iyo) otfiat els eivai, /cat 8cacf)€p6vT(x)g du
Tcov aAAcui' dvQpojTTCxiV ovriaai^ riva Trpog to KaXov
/cat dyaOov yeviadai, /cat dft'co? rov fiiadov ov
Trpdrrofiai, /cat eVt TrXeiovof, axTre /cat avrco
BoKelv rcx) fjLadovTL. 8ta ravra /cat rov rpoTTov
TTj^ Trpdêojs rov fjnadov roiovrov TreTTOL-qfiai'
evretSai' ydp ns Trap' ipLOV fxddr), edv fiev ôvX-qrai,
dnoBeScoKev o iyoj 7rpdrrop.aL dpyvpiov idv 8e
Q fiT], iXdd)V els lepov, djxoaas, oaov dv (f>fj a^ta
eiiât rd pLaSrjpLara, roaovrov KardO-qKev. tolov-
rov aoi, €(f)7], c5 HcoKpares, eyd> /cat fxvdov /cat
Xoyov eLprjKa, cos StSa/cror dperr) /cat ÂdrjvaloL
ovTOJS TjyovvTai, /cat on ovhev dav/Jbaarov tcov
dyadcov Trarepcov (jiavXovs vlels yiyveadai /cat
ra)V (f>avXcov dyaOovs, evret /cat ol IloAy/cAetTou
vUtg, IlapdXov /cat "EavdiTnrov TovSe iÂt/ctoiTat,
ovSev TTpos Tov TTarepa eLcn, \/cat aAAot ctAAoji'
Brjp,Lovpycov. rZJvSe Se ovttco d^Lov rovro KaTrj-
J) yopeiv ert ydp iv avTols elalv iXTTiSes' veot
UpcoTayopas fxev roaavra /cat roiaura em,-

hei^dfxevos dTreTravaaro rov Xoyov. /cat iyco
CTTL fj,ev TToXvv \p6vovJ K€Kr}Xr]fi€Vos eri, irpos avrov
e^XeTTov co£ ipovvrdjrt,, iTnOvficbv dKoveiv eVei

Se Srj rjaOofJLTjv on m-cd ovrt j77€7rayêVo? e'lr], pLoyig
,
TTCos ifiavrov avJayeipas elrrov ^Xeâs
oâirepel '^
TTpos rov 'iTTTTOKpdrrj' 'Q, mat AttoXaoocopov,

d)S X^P"^ ^'^''
^X^ ^'^'' rrpovôpds p-exLhe dîKcadaf
E TToXXov ydp TTOioCfxai d/C7^/coeVai a aKTjKoa IlpcoT'
I
dpTjaai Dobree : voijaai Mss.
150
: ;
PROTAGORAS
there is somebody who excels us ever so httle in
showing the way to virtue, we must be thankful.
Such an one I take myself to be, excelling all other
men in the gift of assisting people to become good
and true, and giving full value for the fee that I
—
charge nay, so much more than full, that the learner
himself admits it. For this reason I have arranged
my charges on a particular plan when anyone has :
had lessons from me, if he likes he pays the sum that

I ask if not, he goes to a temple, states on oath the
;
value he sets on what he has learnt, and disburses

that amount. So now, Socrates, I have shown you
by both fable and argument that virtue is teachable
and is so deemed by the Athenians, and that it is no
wonder that bad sons are born of good fathers and
good of bad, since even the sons of Polycleitus, com-
panions of Paralus and Xanthippus here, are not
to be compared with their father, and the same is
the case in other craftsmen's families. As for these
two, it is not fair to make this complaint of them yet
there is still hope in their case, for they are young.
After this great and fine performance Protagoras
ceased from speaking. As for me, for a good while I
was still under his spell and kept on looking at him
as though he were going to say more, such was my
eagerness to hear ^ but when I perceived that he
:
had really come to a stop, I pulled myself together,

as it were, with an effort, andWooking at Hippocrates
I said Son of Apollodorus/ I am very grateful to
:
you for inducing me to come hither for it is a great ;
treat to have heard what I have heard from Prot-

' Or in Milton's version. Par. Lost, viii. 1-3
in [my] eare
So charming left his voice, that [I] the while
Thought him still speaking, still stood fixt to bear.
151
PLATO
ayopov. iyco yap iv fxev rep efXTrpoaOev ^povto
rjyovfirjvovk elvai dvdpcoTTLvrjv eTTLfxeXeiav, fj
aya-
6ol ol dyadol yiyvovrai' vvv 8e TreTreicr/xat, ttXtjv
<7 V auLLKpov tL ixoi i/JLTToSco v, o SrjXov OTi Upojrayopas

^ "^ paolcDS €7re/cSt8aêt, eireLSr) koI to. ttoAAo, ravra
cfeStSa^c. Koi yap et fiev ris irepl avraJv tovtcov
329 cnryyevoiro otojow tcov h-qp^-qyopoiv , rd^ av /cat
TOiovrovs \6yovs aKovGeiev rf HepiKAeovs t]
dX\ov Tivos rtov iKavcov elnelv el Se eTravepoiTo
Tivd TL, axTTTcp jStÂttt ovScv eôvaiv ovre aTTOKpt-
vaadai ovre avrol ipeadai, dAA' edv ris /cat apuKpov
eTTepajT-qcrp ri rcov p-qOevrcov, cSasrep to. vaA/cta^
TTA-qyevra fxaKpov rjxî'/ kcu aTTOTeirei, eav fjLrj
eTnXd^-qrai ris, /cat 61 p-qropes ovro) ajxiKpd

B epa)T7)d€VT€s SoXlxov KaTareivovai rov Xoyov.
Upayrayopas 8e oSe Ikovos p,ev /xaKpovs Xoyoug
/cat KoAovs eiTTelv, cos avrd SrjXol, iKavos Se
/cat epcoTqdels dnoKpivaadai Kara ^pa^v /cat
epofjLevos TTepijxelvai re /cat dnoSeâa&aL rrjv
aTToKpiaiv, d dXiyois earl irapeaKevaapêva. vvv
ovv, c5 Ylpoirayopa, arfiLKpov rivos ivSeTjs elfiL
rrdvr exîv, et fxot anoKpLvaio roBe. rrjv dperrjv
(f>rjs StSa/CTW elvaL, /cat eyoj elirep aAAa> toj

dvdpiOTTOiv TTeLdoL/xrjv dv, /cat aol Treldofiai' o
C S' idavfjiaad aov Xeyovros, rovro /xot iv rfj ^xfl
dTTonX-qpcoaov. eXeyes yap on 6 Zeu? rrjv
SiKaiocrwTjv /cat rrjv atSco Trepbifieie rots dvdpa>7TOLs,
/cat av TToXXaxov ev rots Xoyois eXeyero vtto aov
7] BiKatoavvT] /cat aa>(f>poavv7] /cat oaiorris koa
^ Xa^Kia Cobet : x(<^c<a Hss.

158
PROTAGORAS
agoras. I used formerly to think that there was no
human treatment by which the good were made good,
but now I am convinced that there is. Only I find
one shght which Protagoras will of course
difficulty,
easily explain away, since he has explained so many
puzzles already. If one should be present when any
of the public speakers were dealing with these same
subjects, one could probably hear similar discourses
from Pericles or some other able speaker but
suppose you put a question to one of them ^they —:
are just like books, incapable of either answering you

or putting a question of their own if you question
;
even a small point in what has been said, just as

brazen vessels ring a long time after they have been
struck and prolong the note unless you put your hand
on them, these orators too, on being asked a little
question, extend their speech over a full-length
course.^ But Protagoras here, while able to deliver,
as events have shown, a long and excellent speech,
is also able when questioned to reply briefly, and
after asking a question to await and accept the
—
answer accomplishments that few can claim. And
now, Protagoras, there is one little thing wanting to
the completeness of what I have got, so please
answer me this. You say that \irtue may be taught,
and if there is anybody in the world who could
convince me, you are the man but there was a
:
point in your speech at which I wondered, and on

which my spirit would fain be satisfied. You said
that Zeus had sent justice and respect to mankind,
and furthermore it was frequently stated in your
discourse that justice, temperance, hoUness and the
^ The metaphor is of a long-distance race of about -ij
miles.
153
PLATO
navra ravra cos €v ri eXr] crvXXij^S-qv, apeTTf
ravT ovv aura SUXde fioi, oiKpiâJs rco Adyoj,
TTorepov ev fxev ri iariv rj apcTTJ, fxopia 8e avrfjs
icTTLV 7) SLKaLoavvT] /cat (TO)<f>poavvq /cat oaiorrjs,
D iq ravr* iarlv a vvu St) iyoj eXeyov Trdvra ovojxara
Tov avTov ivos ovtos' tovt iarlv o en eTmrodu).
'AAAa pahiov rovTo y c^t;, , c5 St/j/c/jare?,
aTTOKplvaardat,, ort ivos ovtos ttjs dperijs fiopLo.
eariv d epcor as. Uorepov,wajrep Trpoaco-€(f>r)v,
7TOV rd{xopia fxoptd eari, arofxa re /cat pis /cat

o(j>daXpLol /cat cora, rj ojartep rd rov )(pvaov fxopia
ovhev Staêpet rd erepa rcbv erepcuv, dXXriXoiv
Kat rod oXov, aXX' tj pueyedei /cat afMiKpor-qrt;
'E/cctVo)? /Aot <j>aiverai, c5 l^cjKpares , ojairep rd
E rov TTpoad)TTOv fiopta e;êt rrpos ro oXov TrpoacoTTov.
Uorepov ovv, rjv S' eyoj, /cat neraXafM^dvovaiv
oi dvdpcDTTOi rovroiv \cov rrjs dperrjs fiopicov ol
fiev dXXo, ol he dXXo, rj dvdyKrj, edvirep rts ev
Xd^jj, drravr exîv; OvSafjLots, e^ry, eVet ttoXXoI
dvSpeioi elaiv, dSiKoi 8e, /cat St/catot av, ao(f)ol
8e ov. "Eart ydp ovv /cat raura yuopia rijs

330 dperrjs, e<j>rjv eyo), ao(f>ia re /cat dvSpeia; Ildvrcov
fjidXicrra h'qTrov,
e(f>rj' /cat jieycarov ye rj ao^ta
rcov jxopicov^"l^Kaarov he avra)v eariv, rjV 8 eycL,

dXXo, TO 8e dXXo; Nat. '^H /cat Swa/xtv avrcbv
eKaarov iStoi^ ^xî; (Zarrep rd rov rrpoacoTTov,
ovK eariv dÔaXfxos otov rd mra, ovh rj hvvajxis
dvfbv rj avrtj' ovhe ra>v dXXcov ovSev eariv otov
ro erepov ovre Kard rrjv Svvafiiv ovre Kard rd
.aAAa' dp" ovv ovroi /cat rd rrjs dperrjs jxopia ovK
154
—
PROTAGORAS
rest were all but one single thing, virtue : pray, now
proceed to deal with these in more precise exposition,
stating whether virtue is a single thing, of which
justice and temperance and hohness are parts, or
whether the quahties I have just mentioned are all
names of the same single thing. This is what I am
still hankering after.
Why, the answer to that is easy, Socrates, he
replied :it is that \-irtue is a single thing and the
qualities in question are parts of it.
Do you mean parts, I asked, in the sense of the
parts of a face, as mouth, nose, eyes, and ears ; or, as
in the parts of gold, is there no difference among the
pieces, either between the parts or between a part
and the whole, except in greatness and smallness ?
In the former sense, I think, Socrates ; as the parts
of the face are to the whole face.
Well then, I continued, when men partake of these
portions of virtue, do some have one, and some an-
other, or if you get one, must you have them all ?
By no means, he replied, since many are brave but
unjust, and many again are just but not wise.
Then are these also parts of virtue, I asked
wisdom and courage ?
Most certainly, I should say, he repUed and of the
;
parts, wisdom is the greatest.

Each of them, I proceeded, is distinct from any
other ?
Yes.
Does each also have its particular function ? Just
as, in the parts of the face, the eye is not Uke the
ears, nor is its function the same ; nor is any of the
other parts like another, in its function or in any
other respect : in the same way, are the parts of
155
;
PLATO
B eoTi TO erepov olov ro erepov, ovre avTo ovre
Tj avTov; jq SrjXa Srj otl ovtcds ^xeu,
SvvafXLS
€L7T€p TO) TTapaSeLy/xaTi ye eoiKev ; 'AAA' ovrtos,
€(f)rj, €X€i, to Uto/cpare?.// /cat iyoj cIttov OvSev
apa earl rcov rrjs dperijs fjuopicov dXXo olov Itti-
arrjjXT), ovh olov StKatoavvrj, ouS' 0101^ avSpela,
ol^S' olov aa)(f)poavvr] , ovS* olov daioTTj?. Ovk
€(f>T]. Ocpe 817, €(f)r]v cyco, Koivfj CT/ce^co/xeâ
TTolov Tt avTa)v iarlv eKaarov, rrpwrov jiev
C TO roiovhc 71 StKaiocrvvT) Trpdy/Jid ri iariv rj
dvSev TTpdyfia; ifiol fiev yap So/cet* ri 8e aot;

Kat ifioL, e<f>r]. Tt ovv; et Tt? epoiro ifxe re
Kal ai' CO Yipojrayopa t€ /cat Sco/cpare?, etTreror
87) fioi, Tovro TO 7Tpdyp,a, o covo/xaaaTe apTt,
i^ St,Kaioavvr] , avTO tovto SiKaiov iartv ^ dStKov
iyoj fJL€V dv avTO) dTT^KpLvatfi-qv on Slkoiov av
8e TtV dv t/j7J(f>ov deto;jrr]V avTrjv ipuol t] dXXrjv;
Trjv avTT^v, €(/)rj. "EcrTtv dpa tolovtov rj 8t/cato-
D avvT] olov hiKaiov elvai, (fjaLrjv dv eycoye dno-
Kptvo/Jievos rep ipojT&vrt,' Nat,ovkovv /cat aru;
€(f)r]. Et ovv fxerd rovro rjfid? epoiro' ovkovv

/cat ocrtoTT^Ta Ttm âTe elvai; (f>aip,€v dv, cos
eya>p.ai. Nat, rj 8' o?. Ovkovv âre /cat
rovro TTpdyjxd ri elvat; (f)aLfj.€v dv ^ ov; Kat
rovro avv€(f)r}. Ilorepov 8e rovro avro ro npd-
yixd (f)are roiovrov 7T€cf>VK€vaL olov dvoaiov elvai
TJ olov OGLOv; dyavaKTT^craLjj.^ dv €yo)y\ '^<t>'i)v,
ro) ipcorrjfiarL, /cat et7rot/x' dv evtjirjfxei, to
E dvdpcoTTe' oxoXfj p.evr dv rt ctAAo oolov gIt], et
156
—
PROTAGORAS
virtue unlike each other, both in themselves and in
their functions ? Are they not evidently so, if the
analogy holds ?
Yes, they are so, Socrates, he said.
So then, I went on, among the parts of virtue,
no other part is like knowledge, or like justice, or
like courage, or like temperance, or Uke holiness.
He agreed.
Come now, us consider together what
I said, let
sort of thing each of these parts. First let us ask,
is
is justice something, or not a thing at all ? I think

it is what do you say ?
;
So do I, he replied.
Well then, suppose someone should ask you and
me Protagoras and Socrates, pray tell me this
:
the thing you named just now, justice, is that itself

just or unjust ? I should reply, it is just what :
would your verdict be ? The same as mine or

different ?
The same, he said.

Then justice, I should say in reply to our questioner,
is of a kind that is just : would you also ?
Yes, he said.
Now suppose he proceeded to ask us Do you also :
speak of a " holiness " ? We should say we do, I

fancy.
Yes, he said.
Then do you call this a thing also ? We should
say we do, should we not ?
He assented again.
Do you say this thing itself is of such nature as to
be unholy, or holy ? For my part I should be
annoyed at this question, I said, and should answer :
Hush, my good sir It is hard to see how anything

!
157
PLATO
fit] avTTj ye rj oaLorrjs oaiov earai. rl Se av; ovx
ovrois ov OLTTOKpivaio ; Yidvv fxev ovv, €<f)r].
yi. Et ovv fxcTa rovr clttol ipcjTCJV rj/xag' vcog

ovv oXiyov TTpoTcpov iXdyere; ap* ovk opOchs
Vfiwv KarrJKOvaa; e'Soâre fxot (f>dvai rd rrjg
aperrjg fiopLa elvat ovrcos eôvra irpos dX\r]\a,
<os OVK etvai to erepov avrcov olov ro erepov
CLTToi/j, dv eycoye on rd fxev dXXa 6pdd)s rJKovaag,
on 8e Kat cfxe otet emelv rovro, napi^Kovaa?'
331 Upcorayopas ydp oSe ravra diTGKpivaTo, iyaj
8e rjpcoTCOV. el ovv eiiTOi' dXr^d-q oSe Ae'yet, tS
Ilpojrayopa; av (f)f)g ovk etvai ro erepov fxopiov
OLOV ro erepov rdjv rrjg dperrjs; cro? ovrog 6
Aoyos eari; ri dv avrco aTTOKpivaio; ÂvdyKrj,
e(f)7), c5 HcoKpares, o/jioXoyeLV. Tt ovv, cS Ilpo)r-
ayopa, aTTOKpivovfjieda avrco, ravra oixoXoyq-
aavres, eav "qpids eTravep-qraL- ovk dpa earlv
ooLorr^S OLOV SiKaiov etvai TTpdyjxa, ouSe St/cato-
avvrj OLOV oolov, dXX' olov firj oolov t] S* oaLorrjg
OLOV fiTj SLKaLov, dAA' d^LKov dpa, ro Se dvooLov;
B n avrcp dTTOKpivov/xeda; eyd) p,ev ydp avros
VTTep ye ejxavrov (j)aL7]v dv /cat rr^v SLKaLoovvrjv
OGLOV eti/ai /cat rrjv ooLorrjra 8i/catov /cat vTrep
aov Se, et pie ecp-qg, ravrd dv ravra aTTOKpLVOLpLrfv,
on rjTOL ravrov y earL SLKaLor-qg oaLorrjrL rj orL
opbOLorarov, /cat fidXiara Travrcov rj re St/catocrwTy
OLOV oaLorrjs /cat rj ooLorrjg olov StKaLoavvrj.
aXX dpa, el Sta/ccoAuei? dTTOKpiveadaL, rj /cat aol
crvvhoKeZ ovrcos. Ov ttovv jxol hoKet, e(f)rj, w
C Scu/c/jares", ovrcos dTrXovv elvaL, oicrre avyxî-
prjaai rrjV re SLKaLoavvrjv oolov elvai /cat rrjv
158
PROTAGORAS
could be holy, if is not to be holy 1
holiness itself
And you —would you not make the same reply ?
Certainly I would, he said.
Now suppose he went on to ask us Well, and
:
what of your statement a little while since ? Perhaps

I did not hear you aright, but I understood you two
to say that the parts of virtue are in such a relation
to each other that one of them is not like another.
Here my answer would be As to the substance of
:
it, you heard aright, but you made a mistake in
thinking that I had any share in that statement. It

was Protagoras here who made that answer ; I was
only the questioner. Then suppose he were to ask :
Is our friend telling the truth, Protagoras ? Is it

you who say that one part of virtue is not like an-
other ? Is this statement yours ? What answer
would you give him ?
I must needs admit it, Socrates, he said.
Well now, Protagoras, after that admission, what
answer shall we give him, if he goes on to ask this
question : Is not holiness something of such nature
as to be just, and justice such as to be holy, or can
it be unholy ? Can holiness be not just, and therefore
unjust, and justice unholy ? What is to be our
reply ? I should say myself, on my own behalf, that
both justice is holy and holiness just, and with your
permission I would make this same reply for you
also ; since justness is either the same thing as
holiness or extremely like it, and above all, justice is
of the same kind as holiness, and holiness as justice.
Are you minded to forbid this answer, or are you in
agreement with it ?
I do not take quite so simple a view of it, Socrates,
as to grant that justice is holy and holiness just. I
159
PLATO
oaioTrjTa hiKaiov, aAAa ri jxoi SoKet iv aurai
8id(f)opov elvai. dAAa tl rovro Siaêpet; €(f)-q-
€t yap ôvXet, earcj TjfXLV Kal SiKaiocrvm) oaiov
Kai oaLOTr]s hiKaiov. Mt^ /xoi, rjv 8' eyoS* ovhev
yap oeofxat, ro el ôvXei rovro /cat ei crot So/<ret
€Aey;iêcrâi, dAA' e/xe re to 8' eju.e re /cat
/cai ae*
ae rovro Xeyco, olofxevos ovroj rov Xoyov îXnctr*
D o-v iXeyxeardac, et ns ro et dcf)€XoL avrov. 'AAAd
fievroL, r) 8 o?, TrpoaeoiKe ri StKaioavvq ocriorrjri,'
Kai yap oriovv orcpovv ajjufj ye tttj Trpocreot/ce.
ro yap XevKov rep fxeXavt ecrriv onrj npoaeoLKe,
Kai ro aKXrjpov rep fxaXaKcp, Kal rdXXa a So/cet
evavriu)rara etvai dAATÂots" Kat d rore €(f}afxev
dXXrjv Swa/XLV ex^tv /cat ovk etvaL ro erepov olov
ro erepov, rd rov TrpoacoTTOv fxopca, dfxj] ye tttj
TTpoaeoLKe Kat eari ro erepov olov rd erepov
coare rovro) ye rep rponcp kov ravra eXey)(ois,
E ft ôvXoLO, (hs dnavrd eariv o/iota dAArJAot?.
aAA ov^} rd ofioiove^pvra o/xota 8t/catov
ri,
KaXelv, ovhe rd dvofxoiov n

exovra dv6p,oi,a, kov
TTavv ajjiiKpdv exj) rd o/Jboiov. Kal eyoj 6avp,daas
eiTTOv TTpds avrov, *H ydp ovrco aoi rd hiKaiov
Kat ro oatov Trpds dXXrjXa exî, oiare ofioiov ri
ap.LKpdv ex^LV d?^X-^XoLs; Ov ttovv, €<f>r], ovrois,
332 ov pievroL ovBe av cos cry fxoi SoKelg oteadai.
AAAd /X7yv, eefyrjv eyoi, eTreihy] Svax^pdJs 8o/cet9
poi exîv TTpds rovro, rovro p,ev edcrcopev, roSe
Se dAAo a)v eXeyes CTrta/cei/'co/xeâ.
A(f)poavv'qv ri KaXeZs; "E^Ty. Tovrcp rip
Vpaypar I ov redv rovvavriov earlv rj ao<j)La;
160
PROTAGORAS
think we^have to make a distinction here. Yet what
difference does it make ? he said if you hke, let us
:
assume that justice is holy and hoUness just.

No, no, I said I do not want this " if you like " or
;
" if you agree " sort of thing^ to be put to the proof,

but you and me together ; and when I say " you
and me " I mean that our statement will be most
properly tested if we take away the " if."
Well, at any rate, he said, justice has some resem-
blance to holiness for anything in the world has
;
some sort of resemblance to any other thing. Thus

there is a point in which white resembles black, and
hard soft, and so with all the other things which are
regarded as most opposed to each other and the ;
things which we spoke of before as having different

faculties and not being of the same kind as each
— —
other the parts of the face these in some sense
resemble one another and are of like sort. In this
way therefore you could prove, if you chose, that even
these things are all like one another. But it is not
fair to describe things as like which have some point
aUke, however small, or as unlike that have some
point unlike.
This surprised me, and I said to him What, do
:
you regard just and holy as so related to each other

that they have only some small point of likeness ?
Not so, he replied, at all, nor yet, on the other
hand, as I believe you regard them.
Well then, I said, since I find you chafe at this
suggestion, we \vill let it pass, and consider another
instance that you gave. Is there a thing you call folly ?
Yes, he said.
Is not the direct opposite to that thing wisdom ?
» Cf. below. 333 c.
161
,
PLATO
Kfioiye So/cei, e(f>r). IloTepov 8^ orav Trpar-
rwaiv dvdpcoTTOL 6pda>s re Kal dx/jeXifxcos , rore
a(0(ppov€iv aoL Sokovglv ovrco Trpdrrovres, t]
[el] rovvavriov [enparTovY ; Haxfjpoveiv, €(f>r].
B OvKovv a(x)(f)poavvri acj^povovaiv ; ÂvdyKi). Ovk-

ovv OL fiTj opdcos TTpoLTTOvres d^povois TTpdrTovai
KoX ov ao}<j>povovaLv ovrco Trpdrrovres ; SwSo/cci

/ioi, e^T^. Tovvavriov dpa earl ro d<j)p6viiis
rrpdrrew rep acii(f)p6vcos ; ''K(f)'q. Ovkovv rd

fiev d^povcxis TTparrofieva d(f)poarvvrj irpdrrerai
rd he aco(j)p6vois arcocfipocrvvr] ; 'D/xoAoyei. Ovk-

ovv et Ti LcrxvC irpdrrerai, laxvpdis rrpdrrerai,
Kal et re dadeveia, dadevcos ; 'ESo/cei. Kai el
Tt pierd rdxovs, rax^cos, koI et rt p.erd ^paSvrrjros,
C PpaSecDs; "E^rj. Kal et Tt 8r} coaavrcos Trpdr-
rerai, inro rod avrov npdrrerat, Kal el ri evav'
rlcos, VTTO rov evavriov; Hvveîq. Oepe h-q, ^v

8' eyoi, earl ri koXov; llvvex<Jopei. Tovru)
eoTL Tt evavriov ttXtjv rd alaxpdv; Ovk eariv.
Tt 84; ear I re dyadov; *E,arLV. Tovrcp eari
^ el et ivparrov seel. Stallbaum.

l62
PROTAGORAS
I think so, he said.
And when men behave rightly and usefully, do you
consider them temperate in so behaving, or the
opposite ?
Temperate, he said.
Then is it by temperance that they are temperate ?
Necessarily.
Now those who do not behave rightly behave
foolishly, and are not temperate in so behaving ?
I agree, he said.
And behaving foolishly is the opposite to behaving
temperately ?
Yes, he said.
Now foohsh behaviour is due to folly, and tem-
perate behaviour to temperance ?
He assented.
And whatever is done by strength is done strongly,
and whatever by weakness, weakly ?
He agreed.
And whatever with swiftness, swiftly, and what-
ever with slowness, slowly ?
Yes, he said.
And so whatever is done in a certain way is done
by that kind of faculty, and whatever in an opposite
way, by the opposite kind ?
He agreed.
Pray now, I proceeded, is there such a thing as the
beautiful ?
He granted it.
Has this any opposite except the ugly ?

None.
Well, is there such a thing as the good ?
There is.
Has it any opposite but the evil ?
163
;
PLATO
Tt evavriov nXriv ro KaKov; Ovk earnv. Ti Be;
earn, ti 6$v ev (fxovfj; "E^t^. Toutoj firj ecni
Ti evavTLOV dXXo vXrjv ro âpv; Ovk e<f)7]. Ovk-
ovu, "qv 8' eyo), evl eKaarco rwv evavrlcov ev
J) fiovov ecrrlv evavriov koL ov TroAAct; IjVVCOfJLoXoyei.
"Wi Bij, ^v S' eyo), dvaXoyiacofieda rd (b/xoXo-
yqfxeva rj/jLtv. (ofioXoyrjKafjiev ev evl fiovov evav-
riov elvai, TrXeioi Be fi-q; 'QfioXoy^Ka/xev. To

Se evavriws Trparrofievov vno evavricov nparreadai
"E^T^. 'Q.fioXoyqKaiJLev Se evavrccos Trpdrreadai
o dv d<f>p6vois TTpdrrrjrai ro) aoi^povojs irparro-
pLevip; "E^T^. To 8e aco(f>p6vcos Trparro/xevov
V7t6 aui<f)poavv7)s Trpdrreadai, ro Se d<f)p6vix}s
j^ VTTO d(f)poavvr)s ; Tivvex(^pec. Ovkovv etrrep evav-
riojs TTpdrrerai, vtto evavriov Trpdrroir dv;
Nai. Wpdrrerai Se ro jxev vtto aa}(f)poavvr}g,
TO Se VTTO d(f>poavvrjs ; Nai. Ê^vavricos ; Ildvv
ye. OvKovv vtto evavricov ovrcov; Nat. Evar-
TLOV dp* ear IV d(f)poavvrj aoj(f>poavvrjs ; âiverai.
164
PROTAGORAS
None.
Tellme, is there such a thing as " shrill " in the
voice ?
Yes, he said.
Has it any other opposite than " deep."
No, he said.
Now, I went on, each single opposite has but one
opposite, not many ?
He admitted this.
Come now, I said, let us reckon up our^points of
agreement. We have agreed that one thing has but
one opposite, and no more ?
We have.
And that what is done in an opposite way is done
by opposites ?
Yes, he said.
And we have agreed that what is done foohshly is
done in an opposite way to what is done temperately ?
Yes, he said.
And that what is done temperately is done by
temperance, and what foohshly by folly ?
He assented.
Now if it is done in an opposite way, it must be
done by an opposite ?
Yes?
And one is done by temperance, and the other by
folly ?
Yes.
In an opposite way ?
Certainly.
And by opposite faculties ?
Yes.
Then folly is opposite to temperance ?
Apparently.
165
PLATO
Mefivrjarai ovv on iv tols eîrpoadev (LfioXoyTjrat
"fjfitv d<f>pocrvvq ao(f)ia evavriov elvai; Hvvcofio-
Xoyet. "Ev Se evt /jlovov ivavriov elvai; ^rjfxi.
333 Tlorepov ovv, cS Upcorayopa, Xvcrojfxev rcov Xoycov;

TO €V evi [xovov ivavTiov etvai, •^ eKeivov ev (h
iXeyero erepov elvat aa)(j)po<jvv7]s ao<j>ia, fxopLov

§€ eKOTepov dperfjs, Kal Trpos rep erepov elvat
Kol dvofioia Kal avra /cat at Svvdfxeis avrojv,
warrep rd rov Trpoo-coTTOv fiopua; Trorepov ovv
817 Xvacofiev; odrot yap ol Xoyoi dpi<^6repoi ov
Trdvv fiovaiKcbs Xeyovrar ov yap avvaSovatv
ovSe crvvapfjioTrovaLV d?^X^Xois. ttcos yap dv
J} avvahoLev, c'lTrep ye dvdyKTj cvl fiev ev puovov
ivavriov elvai, TrXeioaiv he fi-q, rfj Se d(f)po<jvvr)
evl ovri ao(j>ia evavria koX aoi^poavvr] av âiverar

7) yap, J) Yipoirayopa, e(f>r)V eyo), rj dXXcos ttcos;
*Q.fxoX6yrjae Kal jxaK dKovrcos. Ovkovv dv ev

€L7] rj Ga)(f}poavvrj Kal rj aoîa; ro he irporepov
av i<f>dv'q rjfjilv rj StKaLoavvr) Kal .17 oaLorrjs axehou
Tt ravrov ov. lui or], rjv o eyoj, o) iipiorayopa,
firj drroKafMCOfiev, dXXd /cat rd Xonrd Stao-/ce-
i/jcofxeda. dpa Tt? crot So/cet ahtKcov dvOpconos

C (TO}<j>poveiv , on dhiKeZ; AlcrxvvoLfirjV dv eycoy',
€(/)r], c5 TicoKpares, rovro ofioXoyelv, enel ttoXXoI
ye <f>aaL rct)v dvOpcLiraiV. YioTepov ovv rrpos
eKeivovs rov Xoyov 7rot7^cro/xat, e(f>r]v, t] rrpog ere;
Et ôvXei, e<f)r], 77/30? rovrov rrpCbrov rov Xoyov
SiaXexOrjn rov rwv ttoXXcov. 'AAA' ovhev fjuoi
hia<j>epei, edv fjiovov av ye dvoKpivQ, e'ir ovv
166
;
PROTAGORAS
Now do you recollect that in the previovis stage
we have agreed that folly is opposite to wisdom ?
He admitted this.
And that one thing has but one opposite ?
Yes.
Then which, Protagoras, of our propositions are
—
we to reject the statement that one thing has but
one opposite or the other, that wisdom is different
;
from temperance, and each is a part of virtue, and

moreover, a different part, and that the two are as
unlike, both in themselves and in their faculties,
as the parts of the face ? are we to upset ?
Which
The two of them together are not quite in tune ;
they do not chime in harmony. How could they,
if one thing must needs have but one opposite and
no more, while wisdom, and temperance likewise,
appear both to be opposite to folly, which is a single
thing ? Such is the position, Protagoras, I said
or is it otherwise ?
He admitted it was so, much against his will.
Then temperance and wisdom must be one thing ?
And indeed we found before that justice and holiness
were almost the same thing. Come, Protagoras, I
said, let us not falter, but carry out our inquiry to
the end. Tell me, does a man who acts unjustly
seem to you to be temperate in so acting ?
I should be ashamed, Socrates, he rephed, to admit
that, in spite of what many people say.
Then shall I address my argument to them, I
asked, or to you ?
If you please, he answered, debate first against
that popular theory.
It is all the same to me, I said, so long as you
make answer, whether it be your own opinion or
167
PLATO
ooKei aoi ravra, etre nrj. rov yap \6yov eycoye
fiaXiara eferaôj, avfjLâiveL fxevroL tcrco? /cat
€/x€ rov ipcoTojvTa /cai rov aTTOKpivofievov efe-

rdêadaL.
D To fxev ovv TTpciJTov e/caAAcDTTtêTO rjfjilv 6 Upcor-
ayopas' rov yap Xoyov fjTtdTO Svcrx^pij eti/af
€7T€iTa jxevToi cruvcx^cLprjaev a/noKpiveadai. "Wi

hrj, €(f>r}v iyo), i^ ^PXV^ f^^''
drroKpivai. hoKovai
TLves croi acocf)pov€lv dStKovvres; "Kotoj, ecfyf].
To 8e (ja)<j)poveZv Aeyet? ev <f>pov€Lv; "E^t^. To

8 €v <f)pov€Zv €v ôvXeveadai, oti, dhiKouaLv;
'EoTTW, €(f)rj. Uorepov, -^v 8' iyco, el ev TTpdrrov-
aiv dSiKovvres 7] el KaKws; Et eS. Ae'yei?
ovu dyadd drra elvai; Xeyco. Âp* ovv, "qv
8' eyci), ravr* earlv dyadd, d eariv <l)<j>eXt,p.a roZs
E dvdpojTTOLs; Kat vat â At", ^j>f], kov firj rot?
dvdpa)7TOLs coê'At/xa i?* eycoye KaXco dyaOd. Kat
fioL e8o/cet o Upcorayopas tJSt) rerpax^vdai re

/cat dywvidv Kal 7rapaTera;^âi rrpos ro airo-
Kpiveadaf eTreihr] ovv icopcov avrov ovrcos exovra,

evXaôv/Jievos rjpefia 'r]p6yLrjv. Yiorepov, r^v 8
334 eyoi, Xeyeis, cL Upcorayopa, d /jiYjBevl dvOpcovcuv
th(f>€XifJid ear IV, ^ d fMTjSe ro Trapdirav coêAijua;

/cat rd roiavra av dyadd KaXels; OvSaficog,
ecjiTj' dXX eycoye ttoAAo, otS' a dvdpcoTTOis fiep
168
PROTAGORAS
not. For although my first object is to test the
argument, the result perhaps \vill be that both I,
the questioner, and my respondent are brought to
the test.
At Protagoras appeared to be coy, alleging
first
that the argument was too disconcerting however :
he consented at length to make answer. Well now,

I said, begin at the beginning, and tell me, do you
consider people to be temperate when they are
unjust ?
Let us suppose so, he said.

And by being temperate you mean being sensible ?
Yes.
And being sensible is being well-advised in their
injustice ?
Let us grant it, he said.

Does this mean, I asked, if they fare well by their
injustice, or if they fare ill ?
If they fare well.

Now do you say there are things that are good ?
I do.
Then, I asked, are those things good which are
profitable to men ?
Oh yes, to be sure, he replied, and also when they
are not profitable to men I call them good.
Here Protagoras seemed to me to be in a
thoroughly provoked and harassed state, and to
have set his face against answering so when I :
saw him in this mood I grew wary and went gently

with my questions. Do you mean, Protagoras, I
asked, things that are profitable to no human being,
or things not profitable in any way at all ? Can you
call such things as these good ?
By no means, he replied ; but I know a number of
169
PLATO
ava)(f>€Xrj iarl^ /cat atrta Kal ttoto. /cat (jxipjJLaKa
/cat aAAa /xvpta, ra 8e ye axêAi/xa* ra 8e avdpco-
7TOIS fJiev ovSdrepa, tTTTrot? 8e* ra 8e ôval [jlovov,
ra 8e Kvm' ra 8e ye ToyTcov fiev oj)8evt, 8ev8pot?
8e* TO, 8e Tou 8eV8poy rat? ju.ei' ptâtj dyadd,
rats Se Âacrrat? 7T0vr)pd, olov /cat 17 KOTrpos,
B TTavTOiv rGiv <f)VTcov rats fj.€v ptâts dyaOov irapa-
paXXojjievq, el 8' tou? irropdovs /cat
iOeXois eirt
Tous" veovs KXcbvag eTn^dXXeiv, Trdvra aTToXXvcrLV

CTTet /cat TO eXaiov rolg p,€V ^vtols diraaiv ian
TTayKaKov /cat rat?

TToXepucjoTarov rat?
^/atft
TcDi/ aAAojv ^cocDV rat? tou dvOpconov, rats
TrXrjv
8e To£» dv6pa)7TOV dpcoyov /cat to) aAAa> aiofiart.
ovTco 8e ttoiklXov ri can ro dyadov /cat Travro-
8a7rov, /cat evravda roZg fxkv e^codev rov
cucre
C dyadov icrri rep dvOpaynco, rols 8' ivros
crcofxaros
ravTo Tovro KaKiarov /cat 8td rovro ol larpol
Trdvres dnayopevovcrt rots dadevovai fxyj )(prjaOai
eAato) dAA' 7) oTt apuKpordnx) iv Tovrotg ols
fxeXXcL eSeadai, ocrov fxovov rrjv Svcrxepeiav /cara-
aîaai ttjv ctti rat? aladT^crecrc rat? 8ta rcov pivGiV
yiyvopi,€vr)v iv rols airioig re /cat oi/jol^.
KIttovtos ovv ravra avrov ol irapovres dv-

edopv^-qaav (hg eu Xeyoi' /cat iyoj etTTOv' ^Q.
IlpcoTayopa, eycb rvyxdvco eTTLXijafiajv rtg cov
D dvdpojTTOS, /cat eav rls fioo /xa/cpa Xeyrj, cttl-
Xavddvofiai rrepl oS dv j] 6 Xoyos. wanep ovv,

el irvyxdvov V'tt6ko)<^09 (j!)V, Sov dv ;^p>]i/at,
elirep e/xeAAe'? ju.ot hiaXiêadai, jjuetôv <f)9€yy€a6at

7] TTpos Tovs dXXovs, ovroi Kol vvv, eTTeiBrj em.'
170
PROTAGORAS
things that are unprofitable to men, namely, foods,
drinks, drugs, and countless others, and some that
are profitable ; some that are neither one nor the
other to men, but are one or the other to horses ;
and some that are profitable only to cattle, or again
to dogs some also that are not profitable to any
;
of those, but are to trees ; and some that are good

for the roots of a tree, but bad for its shoots such —
as dung, which is a good thing when applied to the
roots of all plants, whereas if you chose to cast it
on the young twigs and branches, it will ruin all.
And oil too is utterly bad for all plants, and most
deadly for the hair of all animals save that of man,
while to the hair of man it is helpful, as also to the
rest of his body. The good is such an elusive and
diverse thing that in this instance it is good for the
outward parts of man's body, but at the same time
as bad as can be for the inward ; and for this reason
all doctors forbid the sick to take oil, except the
smallest possible quantity, in what one is going to
—
eat ^just enough to quench the loathing that
arises in the sensations of one's nostrils from food
and its dressings.^
When he had thus spoken, the company acclaimed
it as an excellent answer and then I remarked
; :
Protagoras, am
a forgetful sort of person,
I find I
and if someone addresses me at any length I forget
the subject on which he is talking. So, just as you,
in entering on a discussion with me, would think
fit to speak louder to me than to others if I happened
to be hard of hearing, please bear in mind now that

you have to deal with a forgetful person, and there-
^ Probably such oil had a specially appetizing flavour or
scent.
171
.
PLATO
XiqaflOVl €V€TV)(€S, (TVVT€fJLvd fMOl TOLS ULTTOKpLaeiS
Kai Ppaxvrepag ttoUl, el /xeAAcD croi eTreadat.
TlaJs ovv KeXeveis /le ^pa)(€a aTTOKpiveadai; rj
^paxvTepd aoL, €cf)r], oLTTOKpLvcopLai iq Set; Mi^-

Sajxajs, rjv S' eyc6. 'AAA' oaa Set; e^t]. Nat,
'^ Tjv o eyo). lloTepa ovv oaa efxoL oo/cet oeiv
aTTOKpiveadai, roaavra aoi a.7TOKplv<x)p,ai, rj oaa
aoi; AK-qKoa yovv, rjv S' eyco, ori av ofo? t
ef /cat avTos fat aAAoi' StSaât Trepi tojv avTcov
Kal fiaKpa Xeyeiv, iav ôvXt], ovtco^, cjotc tov
Xoyov firjSeTTore eTrtAtTretv, /cat aS ^pa^â ovtco's,
335 cSore jtxrySeva aov iv ^pa^vrepois etTretv et ovv
/AeAAei? e/Ltot StaAe'fecrâi, to)erepcp XP'^ rponip
TTpos p.e, rfj ^paxvXoyia. *Q. TicoKpares, €<fyr), eyco
TToXXots rjSrj et? aycova Xoycov dcfuKOjxrjv avdpoj-

TTOig, Kal el rovro erroLOVv o av /ceAeuet?, cos o
dvTiXeycov e/ceAeue pie SiaXeyeadai, ovroi SteAe-
yofiTjv, ovSevos dv êXricov i(f>aLv6p,'rjv ovS dv
eyevero Xlpoirayopov ovofia iv rots "EiXXrjatv
Kal eyco —eyvcov yap on ovk rjpeaev avros avrut
rat? dnoKplaeai rats epLirpoaOev, /cat on ovk
ideX-qaoL eKcbv elvai dTTOKpivopLevos SiaXeyeaOai —
rjyqadfxevos ovKen ipLov epyov eJvai TrapeZvai ev
rats avvovaiais , 'AAAa rot, 6^171^, t5 lipcorayopa,
ouS' eyd) XiTTapaJs exoj rd aoi hoKovvra
irapd
rrjv avvovaiav rjp,lv ylyveadai, dXX eTretSai' av
ôvXt) SiaXeyeaOat, d)s eyd) SuVa/xat eireadai,
rore aot SiaAe'ô/xai. av fxev yap, cos Xeyerai

172
:
PROTAGORAS
fore cut into shorter pieces, that
up your answers
I may be
able to follow you.
Well, what do you mean by short answers ? he
asked do you want me to make them shorter than
:
they should be ?
Not at all, I said.

As long as they should be ? he asked.
Yes, I said.
Then are my answers to be as long as I think they
should be, or as you think they should be ?
Well, for instance, I have heard, I said, that you
yourself are able, in treating one and the same
subject, not only to instruct another person in it
but to speak on it at length, if you choose, without
ever being at a loss for matter ; or again briefly,
so as to yield to no one in brevity of expression.
So, if you are going to argue with me, employ with
me the latter method, that of bre\aty.
Socrates, he said, I have undertaken in my time
many contests of speech, and if I were to do what
you demand, and argue just in the way that my
opponent demanded, I should not be held superior
to anyone nor would Protagoras have made a name
among the Greeks.
I saw that he had not been quite satisfied
Then, as
with himself in making his former answers, and that
he would not readily accept the part of answerer
in debate, I considered it was not my business
to attend his meetings further, and remarked
But you know, Protagoras, I too feel uncomfortable
about our having this discussion against your
inclination but when you agree to argue in such a
;
way that I can follow, then I will argue vith you.

—
For you as people relate of you, and you yourself
\OL. IV G 173
—
PLATO
Trepl aov, <f)fjs 8e /cat avros, Kal iv fxaKpoXoyia
Kol iv ^pa)(yXoyia olos r el avvovaias iroieladai,-
C cro(f)6s yap el' eyw 8e ra [xaKpa ravra ahvvaros,
enel eôvXofirjv av olos r* elvai. aAAa ae ixPV^
'qfxlv crvyxiiip^^v rov aficfiOTepa SvvdfjLevov , tva
fj avvovaia eyiyvero- vvv he eTreihr) ovk edeXeis
/cat ifiOL Tt? dapôAta earl /cat ovk dv olos t et-qv
aoL TTapafielvai, dTToreivovn fiaKpovs Xoyovs —
iXOeXv yap Trot /xe Set elfir eirel /cat ravr dv
tactis OVK drjScbs crov tJkovov. Kal a/xa ravr
eiTToov dviardixriv d)S aTTLcov /cat [jlov dvLara-
D iievov eTTLXafx^dverai, 6 KaAAia? rrjs ;(€i/)o? rij
Se^La, rfj 8' dpiarepa dvreXdêro rov rpt^covos
rovrovt, Kal elirev Ovk acfirjaofxev ae, a> HcoKpa-
res' idv yap av iêXOrjs, ovx o/xotcD? rjfilv eaovrai
oi StctAoyot. heofxai ovv aov TTapafieivaL tj/jllv
<Ls eyd) oi)8' av evos rjSiov d/coucrat^txt t] dov
re Kal Ilpcorayopov hiaXeyopievoiV' dXXd ;\;d/Jtaat
rjjxZv TTaaiv. —
Kal eycb elnov 'r]hr] 8e aveiarrjKrj
<I)S
—
e^Lcov ^Cl TTai 'Ittttovlkov, del fiev eycoye
aov rrjv (îXoao<j)iav dyafxaiy drdp /cat vvv eTratroi
E /cat (f)iXdJ, ware ôvXoLfirjv dv ;!â/3têcrât aoL,
el fjiov 8ut'aTd 8eQto' vvv 8' iarlv ojarrep dv el
8eoto /xou Y%.plaoivi rco 'Ifiepaio) Spofiel dKfidôvn
eveadaL, ^ rwv SoXixoSpo/jiOJV rco r^ rcov r]fjLepo-
hpofxcov StaOelv re Kal eneadai, elTTOipn dv aoi
336 oTt TToXi) aov fjidXXov eyd) e/xavrov 8eo/xat deovai
rovrois dKoXovdelv, dAA' ov yap Svvafiat, dXX
€1 Tt 8€et dedaaadai ev rco avro) ifxe re /cat
K-placova deovras, rovrov Seov avyKadetvar eyd)
'
See 329 b, note.
*
Cf. Pheidippides in Herodotus, vi. 105.
174
—
PROTAGORAS
assert —
are able to hold a discussion in the form of
either long or short speeches you are a man of
;
knowledge but I have no ability for these long

:
speeches, though I could ^\ish that I had it. Surely

you, who are proficient in both ways, ought to have
made us this concession, that so we might have had
our debate. But now that you refuse, and I am some-
what pressed for time and could not stay to hear you
—
expatiate at any length for I have an appointment;
I ^\^ll be though I daresay I should be happy
off;
enough to hear your \iews.
With these words I rose as if to go away but, as;
I was getting up, Callias laid hold of my arm vrith

his right hand, and grasped this cloak of mine with
his left, and said We will not let you go, Socrates ;
:
for if you leave us our discussions will not go so welL

I beg you therefore to stay with us, for there is
nothing I would rather hear than an argument
between you and Protagoras. Come, you must
oblige us all.
Then said (I was now standing up as though to
I
go out) Son of Hipponicus, I always admire your
:
love of knowledge, but especially do I commend

and love it now, so that I should be very glad to
oblige youif you asked of me something that I
could do but I am afraid it is as though you asked
:
me to keep pace with Criso the runner of Himera

in his prime, or to keep up in a match with one
of the long-distance ^ or day-course ^ racers, and 7
could only tell you that I wish that of myself, without
your asking, I could keep pace ^^•ith such runners,
but of course I cannot. If you want to have the
spectacle of Criso and me running together, you
must ask liim to adapt his pace for whereas I
;
175
PLATO
fxev yap ov SvvafJLat, ra^v delv, ovto? Se Swarat
^paheojs. et ovv eTTidvjxels ifJiou /cat IIptoT-
ayopov rovrov Seov, cooTrep ro npcorov
OLKOveiv,
fioi drreKpLvaTO 8id ^paêcxiv t€ /cat avra ra
ipcordopieva, Kal vvv aTTOKpiveaOai' el Se
ovrco
B fiT], TLS 6 earai rajv SiaXoycov ; ;^ct>pts'
rpoTTOs
yap cyojy' a)[j.r)v clvai ro avveZvai re dAATÂot?
SiaAeyojueVou? /cat ro hrjpL-r^yopeZv. 'AAA' dpa?,
6^17, cS HcoKpares' St/cata 80/cet Ae'yeti' II/jajT-
aydpa? a^LCov avra> re eêZvai hiaXeyeadat. ottcos
jSovAerat /cat ctj) ottcos aip av ai) ôvXt).
'YTToXaôjv ovv 6 'AA/ct^tdST^S", Ou KaXws
Xdyeis, ^(f>f]> t5 KaAAta* TicoKpdrrjs fxev yap o8e
opLoXoyeL [MTj jLieretvat ot jxaKpoXoyia? /cat Trapa-
C xcopet IlpcoTayopa, tou Se StaAeyeaât olos r*

elvai Kal iiTLaraaOai, Xoyov re. hovvai, /cat heâadat
davixdt,oLii dv et rep dvdpioTTOiv 7Tapax(op€X. et
fiev ovv /cat Upcvrayopas o/jLoXoyel (f)avX6r€pos

elvai YiWKpdrovs SiaXexdyjvai, efap/cet Soj/cpdref
ei Se dvriTTOLelrai, StaAeyecr0a> ipcorcov re /cat
aTTOKpivopbevos, p-ri e0' eKdarrj epcjOTqcrei, jxaKpov
Xoyov dnorelvajv , eKKpovcov tou? Aoyou? /<at
ou/c ideXcov StSovat Aoyov, dAA' dTTOfjbrjKvvcov
D eojs dv eTTiXdduivrai Trepl drov ro epconqpâ -qv

ot TToAAotrcov dKovovrcov cTret HojKpdrr) ye
ey<h iyyvdJ/jLai fxr) eTTiX-queadaL, ovx on Tratêt
/cat (f)r]aLv eTnXqafxcov elvai. ifiol p.ev ovv 80/cet
emeLKearepa HcoKpdriqs Xeyetv XPV V^P ^xaorov
rrjviavrov yva>p,r]v dTTOtâiveadai. puerd Se rov
'AA/ctjStdSi7V, CO? eyu>p,ai, Kptrta? rjv 6 el-nwv
*^ IlpdSt/ce /cat 'iTnrla, KaAAta? piev So/cet /xot
/LtoAa Trpd? Upcorayopov elvai, AXKiîdSrjs 8^

176
PROTAGORAS
cannot run fast, he can run slowly. So if you desire
to hear Protagoras and me, ask him to resume the
method of answering which he used at first in —
short sentences and keeping to the point raised.
Otherwise what is to be our mode of discussion ?
For I thought that to hold a joint discussion and to
make a harangue were two distinct things.
Ah, but you see, Socrates, he said, Protagoras
thinks it only fair to claim that he be allowed to
discuss in his chosen style, in return for your claim
that it should be in yours.
At this Alcibiades intervened, saying You :
do not state it quite philosophically, Callias,^ for

Socrates here confesses he is no hand at long dis-
courses, and yields therein to Protagoras ; but I
should be surprised if he yields to any man in abihty
to argue, or in understanding the interchange of
reason. Now if Protagoras confesses himself inferior
to Socrates in argumentation, Socrates has no more
to ask but if he challenges him, let him discuss by
:
question and answer ; not spinning out a lecture

—
on each question beating off the arguments, re-
fusing to give a reason, and so dilating until most
of his hearers have forgotten the point at issue.
For Socrates, I warrant you, will not forget, despite
his jesting way of calhng himself forgetful. Now
I think Socrates' proposal is the more equitable —
for each of us should declare his personal opinion.
After Alcibiades, the next, I beheve, to speak
was Critias Prodicus and Hippias, he said, it seems
:
to me that Callias is all for supporting Protagoras,

while Alcibiades is always for a contest in anything
^ The translation attempts to follow the jingle of koXws . . .
KaXXia.
177
PLATO
E aei (piAovLKog eart, Trpos o av opfirjcrr)' rjfxag oe
ovSkv Set avfi(f)LXoviK€Xv ovre Sco/cpaTet oure
Ylpcorayopa, dXXa kolvtj api(j)orepcDV Seladat jxtj
337 fjiera^v SiaAucrat t')7V ^vvovaiav eLTTovros Se

aurou ravra, 6 UpoSiKos, KaAoi? ôi, €^17, So/eels'
Xeyeiv, c5 Kptrta* ;;^/>i7 yap rovs iv roioXaSe
Xoyois TTapayiyvofievovs Koivovg jjiev etvat d/xôtv
Tolv SiaXeyo/jievoLv aKpoards, 'iaovs Se /xt^. eari
ya/> ou rauTOj'" KOLvfj fxev yap aKovaai Set diJi(f)0-
ripcov, firj laov Se velfiat eKarepw, dXXd rco [mcv
uocjicorepcp ttXcov, ro) Se dpiadeaTepcp eXarrov.
iycb fxev /cat avros, & ITpcoraydpa re /cat Sa>-
Kpares, d^Lcb Vfidg avyxcopelv /cat dXX-qXois vre/at
B TcDv Adyojv dfMcjiia^rjrelv fxev, epitêiv Se /Lti^* dfxcf)i,-
u^r]rovaL fxev yap /cat St' evvotav ot (j)iXot rots
(jiiXois, iptt,ovai Se ot hidcfiopoire /cat e)(dpoi
aAATjAots". /cat oiircos av KaXXiarrj r]p,Xv rj avv-
ovaia yiyvoiro' voxels re yap ot Xeyovreg fidXicrr
dv ovrcos iv i^/xtv rols dKovovaiv evSoKtfioXre
/cat ovK eTratvoXaOe' evSoKLfMeXv p,€V yap eari
Trapd rals i/jvxals rcbv dKovovrcov dvev dTrarrjs,
eTTaiveladai, Se iv Xoyw 7roAAa/ci? Trapa Sdâp'
C iff€vSopL€va)V' 'qfJieXs r
av ol dKovovres fiaXtar
dv ovrcos ev(f>paivoLfj,e9a, ovx ^Soifieda' ev^pai-
veadai fxev yap eon fxavddvovrd ri /cat (f>pov'iqa eojs
fieraXafM^dvovra avrfj rfj hiavoia, yjSeadaL Se
iaSiovrd ri 7] dXXo rjSv Tvaaxovra avra> ra> acofjuarL.
Taura ovv ecTTovros rod ITpoSt/cou ttoXXol
TTOVV rcbv rrapovrcov aTreSiâvro' jxerd Se rov
YipohiKov 'iTTTTtas 6 ao(f)6s eiTrer, *0 dvdpes, ^(f>'Q,
^ Prodicus was specially expert in nice verbal distinctions.

178
PROTAGORAS
he takes up. It is not for us to contend on either
side for Socrates or for Protagoras, but jointly to
request them both not to break off our conference
unconcluded.
When he had said this, Prodicus ^ remarked : I
think you are right, Critias :those who attend this
sort of discussion ought to be joint, but not equal,
hearers of both disputants. For there is a diiference :
we should hsten jointly to them both, yet not give

equal heed to each, but more to the wiser and less
to the less intelligent. I on my part also, Protagoras
and Socrates, call upon you to accede to our request,
and to dispute, but not \\Tangle, ^vith each other
over your arguments :for friends dispute with
friends, just from good feeling whereas wTangling
;
is between those who are

. and erunity
at variance
with one another. In this way our meeting \n\\
have highest success, since you the speakers will
thus earn the greatest measure of good repute,
not praise, from us who hear you. For good repute
is present in the hearers' souls without deception,
but praise is too often in the words of liars who
hide what they really think. Again, we hsteners
would thus be most comforted, not pleased for ;
he is comforted who learns something and gets a

share of good sense in his mind alone, whereas he
is pleased who eats something or has some other
pleasant sensation only in his body.
When Prodicus had thus spoken, quite a number
of the company showed their approval then after
:
Prodicus the learned Hippias ^ spoke Gentlemen,

:
^ Hippias professed to teach a great variety of subjects.

His frequent metaphors were evidently designed to display
his wide range of knowledge.
179
PLATO
ol TTapovres, r]yovp,ai eyoi vfids crvyyeveig re
Kal olKeiovs /cat TToXiras dnavrag elvat. (f)v<yei,
D ov vofxcp- TO yap ofioiov ro) ajjioiip (f)vcT€L avy-
yevis iuTLv, 6 8e vofios, rvpavvos iov rojv avdpco-
7TOJV, TToXXa TTapa rrjv <j)vaiv ^tdêrai. rjpids
ovv ala)(p6v ^vaiv rdJu TrpaypLarcov elSevai,

rrjV piev
ao(f)a>Tdrovs ovras rcov 'EAAi^vcoi', /cat /car
8e
avTo TOVTO vvv crvvcXrjXvdoTas rrjs re 'EAAaSoj
els avTO TO TrpvraveZov rrjs ao(f>ias /cat avrrjs
rfjs TToXeojs els top pLeyiarov /cat oX^Liorarov
oiKov Tovhe, pirjhev tovtov tov dîcopiaros dîov
E d7TO(f)'^vaadai, dAA' wanep rovg <j)avXorarovs rd)V
dvdpcoTTOJV hiaêpeadai dXXrjXois. eyu> p,ev ovu
/cat SeopLai /cat avpiôvXevco, cb Ylpcorayopa re
/cat HcoKpares, avpLîjvat, vpLas oiOTrep vtto Siat-
rrjTcov Tjpucov avpiîâôvrcov els ro pieaov, /cat
338 P''^re ae ro dnpiês rovro elhos rwv SiaXoycov

^rjrelv ro Kara $paxv Xiav, el p,r) rjSv Upcorayopa,
dAA' e(f>elvat /cat )(aXdaai, rds rjvlas rols Xoyois,
iiâ pbeyaXoTTpenearepoL /cat evax^P'Ovearepoi f]p,iv
<f)aLvajvrai, pi-qr* ad Upojrayopav iravra koXcov

eKreivavra, ovpia e(f>evra, (l)evyeLV els ro rreXayos
rwv Xoycov, drroKpyipavra yrjv, aAAa pueaov ri
dpicf)orepovs repbeiv. d)S ovv iroiijaere, /cat Tret-
deade /xot pa^Sovôv Kal eTTiardr-qv Kai, Trpvraviv
B eXeaOai, o? vpiLv <j>vXdêi ro pt.erpiov purJKOs rcov
Xoycov eKarepov.
Taura rols rrapovai, /cat rravres eir-
rjpeae
rjveaav, Kal re 6 KoAAta? ovk e<f)T] d(f)râeiv
ep-i
Kal eXeadat iSeovro emcrrdrrjv. elirov ovv eyoj
on alaxpov eirj ^paêvrrjv eXeadai rcov XoycDV.
etre yap x^tpojv ecrrat rjpbdjv 6 alpedeis, ovk opOws
180
PROTAGORAS
he said, who are here present, I regard you all as
kinsmen and intimates and fellow-citizens by nature,
not by law for like is akin to like by nature, whereas
:
law, despot of mankind, often constrains us against

nature. Hence it would be shameful if we, while
—
knowing the nature of things, should yet being the
wisest of the Greeks, and having met together for
the very purpose in the very sanctuary of the wisdom
of Greece, and in this the greatest and most aus-
—
picious house of the city of cities display no worthy
sign of this dignity, but should quarrel \vith each
other like low churls. Now let me beg and advise
you, Protagoras and Socrates, to come to terms
arranged, as it were, under our arbitration :you,
Socrates, must not require that precise form of
discussion with its extreme brevity, if it is disagree-
able to Protagoras, but let the speeches have their
head with a loose rein, that they may give us a more
splendid and elegant impression ;nor must you,
Protagoras, let out full sail, as you run before the
breeze, and so escape into the ocean of speech
leaving the land nowhere in sight rather, both of
;
you must take a middle course. So you shall do as

I say, and I strongly urge you to choose an umpire
or supervisor or chairman w^ho will keep watch for
you over the due measure of cither's speeches.
His proposal was approved by the company, and
they all applauded it : Callias said he would not
let me go, and they requested me to choose a super-
visor. To this I replied that it would be a shame
to choose an arbiter for our discussion for if he
;
who is chosen, said I, is to be our inferior, it would

VOL. IV G U 181
PLATO
ai' exoi TOP X^^P^ '''^^ êXrtovcov iTnararetv,
€LT€ ofioLos, ou8' ovTOis 6pda)s' 6 yap Op,OLOS
-qpuv ofxoLa /cat TTOi-qaei, ware ck Trepirrov rjpi^-
C crerat. dAAo. 817 êXriova rjficov atp-qaeade . rfj

fiev dXrjdeia, cos eywfiai, dSvparov vjjlXv coare
Ylpcorayopov rovSe ao(f)a)rep6v riva eXeadai- ei
he alprjcreaOe p,€V jxiqhev êXricn, ^râere he, ai-

crxpov KOI rovro rwhe yiyverai, oio-nep (f)avXu)
dvOpcoTTO) eTTLardrriv alpeZaQai, eTrel ro y ep,ov
ovhev fjioi, hiacjyepeL. dXX ovTcoal eOeXo) TTOtrjcraL,
tv* o TrpodvpLeZcrde crvvovata re /cat StaAoyot rjiilv
yiyv(x)VTav el fxr^ ôvXerai X\po}Tay6pas arro/cpt-
D veadai, ovTos fxev epcordro), eyd) he aTTOKpLvoOfxai,

/cat a/xa TTeipdaopbai avrco helâi, ivs eyco <prip,i
XpfjvaL Tov d-noKpivofxevov dTTOKpLvecrdaL- eirethau

he eyd) dTTOKpivcofxai oiroa dv oSrog ôvX-qfai
epojTav, TrdXtv ovrog ipLol Xoyov UTrocrpêrca ojxoLUis.
edv ovv /jLTj hoK-fj vpoOufMos elvaL irpos avro ro
epiorcofxevou dTTOKptvecrdai, /cat eycu /cat vfxets
Kotvfj avrov direp vp.el'S ep,ov, p,yj
her]a6fieda
hia(j)deipeiv rrjv avvovaiav /cat ovhev Set rovrov
E eVe/ca eva eTTiardrrjv yeveadai, dXXd Trdvres Koivfj
eTTLorrar-qaere . eSd/cei Trdatv ovrcu TToirjreov elvaf
/cat o Yipoirayopas irdw jxev ovk rjdeXev, o[j,aJS
he rjvayKdodr) ojJioXoyrjaai, ipcorrjcreLV , /cat eTrechav

cKavcos epoirrjari, irdXiv hcoaeiv Xoyov Kara a-fxi-
Kpov dnoKpivopLevos.
"Hpâro ovv ipcorav ovrcDoi ttcos' 'Hyovfiai,
e(f)r}, c5 dvhpl TratSeta? ixeyiarov
TicoKpares, eyd)
339 fxepos elvai irepl eTTwv heivov etvac eari he rovro
182
PROTAGORAS
not be right to have the inferior overseeing the
superior ; while if he is our equal, that will be just
as WTong, for our equal will only do very much as
we do, and it will be superfluous to choose him.
You may say you will choose one who is our superior.
—
This, in very truth, I hold to be impossible to choose
someone who is wiser than our friend Protagoras ;
and if you choose one who is not his superior, though

you may say he is, that again would cast a slur
on him, as if he were some paltry fellow requiring
a supervisor for, as far as I am concerned, the
;
matter is indifferent. But let me tell you how I

would have the thing done, so that your eagerness
for a conference and a discussion may be satisfied.
If Protagoras does not wish to answer, let him ask
questions, and I will answer : at the same time
I will try to show him how the answerer, in my
view, ought to answer and when I have answered
;
all the questions that he wishes to ask, in his turn

he shall render account in like manner to me. So
if he does not seem very ready to answer the
particular question put to him, you and I will join
in beseeching him, as you have besought me, not
to upset our conference. And for this plan there is
no need to have one man as supervisor you will all
;
supervise together.
it
They all resolved that it should be done in this
way : Protagoras, though very unwilling, was
obliged after all to agree to ask questions and then,
when he had asked a sufficient number, to take his
turn at making due response in short answers.
And so he began to put questions in this sort of
way I consider, Socrates, that the greatest part of
:
a man's education is to be skilled in the matter of
183
.
PLATO
TO. VTTO rcov TTOLrjTcov Xeyoficva olov t etvai avv-
levai a re opdaJs 7Te7T0L7]Tai Kal a fJL-q, Kal em-
araadai SteAetr re Kal ipcorcofxevov Xoyov Sovvai.
Kal 8r] Kal vvv ecrrai to epuyr-qjxa Trepl rov avrov
fxev, TTcpl ovTTep lyoi re koX av vvv StaAeyo/ueâ,
Trepl dperrjs, fierevrjveyfjievov Se elg rroirjaLV
roaovrov p,6vov hioiaei. Xeyei yap ttov St/xa>-
vlBrjs TTpos TiKOTTOV, rov KpeovTO? vlov rov Qer-
raXov, on
B avSp' dyaOov fxev aXadecos yeveadat pôAeTroi',

Xepaiv re Kal TToal Kal vocp rerpdya>vov, dvev
ifjoyov rervyixevov
rovro eTriaraaai ro aajxa, rf ttov croi SteêXOco;

Kal eyoj elTTOv on OvSev Set' eTnarapLai re yap,
Kal TTOvv [XOL rvyxdvet fxefieXrjKos rov aapiaros.
Ey, ecjiT], Xeyeis- vorepov ovv KaXco? aoL So/cet
neTToirjadai Kal opdcos, ?) ov; Yldvv, €(f)r]v eyco,
<KaXa)s > ^ re Kal opdcos. Ao/cei 8e aoc KaXws
neTTOiTjudai, el evavria Xeyei avro? avro) 6 ttoitj-
rrjS ; Ov KaXcbs, -^v 8' eyco. "Opa 817, €(^17,
C êXrcov. 'AAA', cS 'yade, eoKepLpâi iKavaJg. 01-

ada ovv, e<l>'q, on irpo'Covros rov aafiaros Xeyei
TTOV
ovBe fioi ifXfMeXecos ro YlirraKeiov vepierai,

KaLroL aoôv Trapd â>r6s elpr^pievov ;âA€7rov <j>dT
eadXov ep,p.evai.
ivvoels on 6 avros ovros Kal rdSe Xeyei KdKelva

^ xaXwt add. Bekker.
184
— —— — ;
PROTAGORAS
verses ; that is, to be able to apprehend, in the
utterances of the poets, what has been rightly and
what wTongly composed, and to know how to dis-
tinguish them and account for them when questioned.
Accordingly my question now \\-ill be on the same
subject that you and I are now debating, namely
virtue,but taken in connexion with poetry that :
will be the only difference. Now, Simonides, I

think, somewhere remarks to Scopas, the son of
Creon of Thessaly
For a man, indeed, to become good truly is hard.
In hands and feet and mind foursquare.
Fashioned without reproach.
Do you know the ode, or shall I recite the whole ?

To rephed There is no need, for I know it
this I :
it happens that I have especially studied that ode.

I am glad to hear it, he said. Now do you regard
it as finely and correctly composed or not r
Very finely and correctly, I replied.
And do you regard it as finely composed, if the
poet contradicts himself ?
No, I replied.
Then observe it more closely, he said.
My good sir, I have given it ample attention.
Are you aware, then, he asked, that as the ode
proceeds he says at one point
Nor ringeth true to me
That word of Pittacus '
And yet 'twas a sage who spake

Hard, quoth he, to be good.
Do you note that this and the former are statements
of the same person ?
Pittacus, ruler of Mytilene, despaired of ruling well

' on
the ground here stated.
185
PLATO
Ta cfiTTpoadev; OtSa, -^v S' iyco. Ao/cei oSv
aoi, €(f>rj, ravra cKeivois ofxoXoyeiadaL ; Oat-
veraL cfMoiye (/cai a/xa fievroi lj>oôv^7]v fir]
Tt Xeyoi). drdp, ecfiTjv iyco, aol ov <f>aiveraL;

D ncu? yap dv âivoiro ofioXoyeiv avTos eavrco 6
ravra dfi(f>6r€pa Xeycov, o? ye to fxev Trpwrov
avros VTredero X'^X^ttov etvai dvSpa dyaOov yeve-
aOai dXrÔeta, oXiyov 8e rov iroLrjpLaros els ro
TTpoaOev TTpoeXdcjv eTreXddero, /cat YiirraKov rov
ravra Xeyovra eavrw, on yaXeTTOV iadXov e/x-
/Jbevai, rovrov p.epi<f>€rai re /cat ov (f}7jaiv drro-
SeêaOaL avrov rd avrd eavrw Xeyovro?. Kairoi
OTTore rov ravra Xeyovra avrco fxep.(f)er ai, SrjXov
on Kat eavrov /xe/LKêrat, a)are TJroi ro irporepov
Tj varepov ovk opdws Xeyei.
EtVcov ovv ravra ttoXXoZs dopvôv rrapeaxe

E /cat enaivov rtJbv dKovovrcov /cat eydi ro jxev
TTpcorov, (vaTTepel dyadov TTVKrov -nXriyeis,
vtto
eaKorajdrjV re IXiyyiaaa eiTTovros avrov
/cat
ravra /cat rcbv d?<Xojv eTndopv^rjadvrcov eVetra,
CO? ye 77/30S" ere elpfjadai raX-qdrj, Iva puot, ^povos
eyyevrjrai rfj a/cei/ret Xeyoi 6 TTOLrjr'qs, rpe-
Tt
TTo/xat TTpos rov YipoStKov, /cat /caAecra? avrov,
^Q. UpoScKe, ecfy-qv eyw, ads fxevroi St/xojvtSy^?
TToXirris' St/cato? ei ôrjOelv rep dvhpi. Sokoj
340 ovv fxoi eyoj TrapaKoXelv ae, cooTrep ecjir) "Op,r]pos
rov TtKdjjiavSpov TToXtopKovfievov vtto rov A;îA-
Ae'oJS" rov TiLjjioevra irapaKaXetv, eiTTOvra'
(j)lXe KaaiyvTjre, adevog dvepos dpLtftorepoi rrep

axojfiev.
1 Iliad xxi. 308 foil.
186
—
PROTAGORAS
I know that, I said.
Then do you think the second agrees with the
first?
So far as I can see, it does, I repHed (at the same
time, though, I was afraid there was something in

what he said). Why, I asked, does it not seem so
to you ?
How can anyone, he rephed, be thought con-
sistent, who says both of these things ? First he
laid it down himself that it is hard for a man to
become good in truth, and then a little further on
in his poem he forgot, and he proceeds to blame
Pittacus for saying the same as he did that it is —
hard to be good, and refuses to accept from him
the same statement that he made himself. Yet,
as often as he blames the man for saying the same
as himself he obviously blames himself too, so that in
either the former or the latter place his statement
is wrong.
This speech of his won a clamorous approval
from many of his hearers and at first I felt as though
;
I had been struck by a skilful boxer, and was quite

blind and dizzy with the effect of his words and the
noise of their applause. Then to tell you the —
—
honest truth in order to gain time for considering
the poet's meaning, I turned to Prodicus and
calling him —
Prodicus, I said, surely Simonides was
your townsman it behoves you to come to the
:
man's rescue. Accordingly I allow myself to call

—
for your assistance ^just as Scamander, in Homer,^
when besieged by Achilles, called Simois to his aid,
saying
Dear brother, let us both together stay this warrior's might.
187
PLATO • .
drap Kai eycu ae TrapaKoXui, fjurj rjfj,lv 6 IlpcDT-

ayopas rov HtjjicovLSrjv CKTreparj. /cat yap ovu
Kal Setrai to VTvep JîficovlBov eTTavopOcofia Trjs
B crrjs fJiovaLKTJs, fj
ro re ôvXeadai Kal eTndv/xeLV
Statpet? CO? ov ravrov 6v, Kal a vvu Srj etTre?
TToAAct T€ Kal KaXd. Kal vvv OKOTTei,, €L aoi
avvhoKel onep ifjuoi. ov yap (f)aiv€rai evavria
Xiyeiv avros avra> StjucuvtSTj?. cry ydp, cS ITpo-
SiKe, TTpoaTTOcfirjvaL rrjv o-qv yvcLfx-qv ravrov

uoL hoKel elvai ro yeveadai Kal ro elvai, iq aAAo;
"AAAo ^7 At', €(f)r) 6 UpoBiKos. Ovkovv, e(f>rjv
iycoy €V fx,€v rois irpoirois avros 6 TiLfxcovtBrjs rrjv
iavrov yva)ixrjv aTrec/jT^varo , on dvSpa dyadov
C dXrjdeia yeveaOai x^XeTTOV etr]; 'AX7]d7J Xeyeis,
'i<f>ri 6 YipohiKos. Tov Se ye IltrraKov, fjv 8'
eyio, fie iJi(f>€r ai, ovx o^s oterai Ilpcorayopas,
ravrov eavrcp Xeyovra, dXX* aAAo. ov yap
rovro 6 HirraKos eXeye ro ;âAe7roi', yeveaO ai
eadXov, warrep 6 StyuajviSTj?, dAAo. ro efx/jLevai'
can Be ov ravrov, c5 Upcorayopa, cS? (f>r]aL Ilpo-
Slkos oBe, ro elvai Kal ro yeveadac el Be firj
ro avro eari ro eivai rep yeveadai, ovk evavria
Xeyei 6 TiifxcovlB-qs avros avrco. Kal laojs ai^
D (f)alrj ITpoSt/cos' oBe Kal dXXoi ttoXXoI, Kad* 'Hat'o-
Bov, yeveadai fxev ayadov ;âAe7roi' eiv-af ttjs

yap dperfjs ejXTrpoadev rovs deov^ IBpcbra OeZvaf
orav Be Tt? avrrjs elg aKpov LKiqrai, p-qCBlrfv Brj-
TTeira neXeiv, ;âAe7r7^v' nep eovaav, eKrrjadai.
*0 pêv oSv YlpoBiKos dKovaas ravra eTrrjveae
fi€' 6 Be Ilpcorayopas, To eTTav6pda>p,d act,
€(f>rj, u) HcoKpares, pielôv dp^dprrîxa eêi r} o
188
;
PROTAGORAS
In the same way I upon you, lest Protagoras
call
lay Simonides in ruins. For indeed to rehabilitate
Simonides requires your artistry, by which you can
discriminate between wishing and desiring as two
distinct things in the fine and ample manner of
your statement just now. So please consider if
you agree îth my view. For it is not clear that
Simonides does contradict himself. Now you, Pro-
dicus, shall declare your verdict first do you consider
:
becoming and being to be the same or different ?

Different, to be sure, said Prodicus.
Now in the first passage, I said, Simonides gave
it as his own opinion that it is hard for a man to
become good in truth.
Quite true, said Prodicus.
And he blames Pittacus, I went on, for saying
not, as Protagoras holds, the same as himself, but
something different. For what Pittacus said was
"
not, as Simonides said, that it is hard " to become
but " to be " good. Now being and becoming,
Protagoras, as our friend Prodicus says, are not the
same thing ; and if being and becoming are not
the same thing, Simonides does not contradict
himself. Perhaps Prodicus and many others might
say with Hesiod that to become good is hard, " for
Heaven hath set hard travail on the way to virtue
and when one reacheth the summit thereof, 'tis an
easy thing to possess, though hard before."^
When Prodicus heard this he gave me his approval :
but Protagoras observed Your correction, Socrates,
:
contains an error greater than that which you are

correcting.
Â not quite exact quotation of Hesiod, Warks and DaySy
289 folL
189
. ,
PLATO
€7Tavop9ols. Kal iyd) etnov, KaKroi/ apa p,oi
elpyaarai, cog eoiKev, c5WpojTayopa, Kal elfii.
E Tt? yeXoios larpos' Icofxevos fxeXSôv to voarjixa
TTOLW. 'AAA' OVTCOS €X€L, €(f)r) 11 CO? StJ," rjv
S iya>. UoXXtj dv, €(j)T], dp,adia ctr] rov TTOirjTOV,

et ovTO) âvXov tl (f)rjcnv elvai, rrjv dpCTrjv eKTrj-
adaiy 6 eart. iravTOiV ;)âA67rcoTaroi', a>? drraaL
8o/cet dvdpcoTTOts. Kal iycb elirov, Ni7 rov Ala,
€LS Kaipov ye TraparervxrjKev r^pAV iv rols Xoyois
TlpoSiKos oSe. KtvSvveveL yap roi, co Upcor-
ayopa, rj UpoSiKov ao(f>La Oela res etvat, ndXai,
311 '^Toi dTTo TiLfjicovlSov dpâp,€vrj, ^ Kal €Tl TraAato-
repa. cri) Se aAAcoi' voXXojv efXTTetpos <jl)v ravriqs
aTTCLpos elvai âtVet, ovx axTvep eyd) efjcrretpos

8id TO /jbadr]T7)s etvat, UpoStKov rovTovt- Kal
vvv fxoL SoK€LS ov /xavddveLv , on Kal to x^Xerrov
TOVTo tacos ovx owTo; HLfjuajviS-qg vneXafxâvev
(joa-nepav VTroXafx^dveis, aAA' coairep irepl rov
Seivov UpoSiKos fM€ ovTocrl vovdereZ CKaarore,
orav €7Tatva>v eyd) rj ae t^ dXXov rivd Xeyco otl
B Yipoirayopa? ao(f)6s Kal Seuvos eariv dvijp, epcora
el ovK rdy add Seivd KaXdJv.
alaxvvoixai ro
yap Seivov, KaKov eariv ouSet? yovv Xeyei
<f)r]Gl,
eKaarore hetvov nXovrov ovSe ScLvrjg eip-rjvqg

ov8e Seivrjs vyielas, dXXd Secvrjs vocrov Kal Seivov
TToXefxov Kal Seivrjs irevlas, ai? rov Seivov KaKov
ovros. tacos ovv Kal ro ;âAe7rop' av ol Ketoi
Kal 6 HifxojvlSrjs rj KaKov vTToXafxâvovaiv 7)
dXXo ri o av ov piavddveis' epiopieda ovv lipo-
BiKOV Si/catov yap rrjv HifxcovlSov (f)covrjv rovrov
190
PROTAGORAS
To which I answered then it is a bad piece of
:
work Ihave done, it would seem, Protagoras, and I

am an absurd sort of physician my treatment
;
increases the malady.

Just so, he said.
How is that ? I asked.
Great, he replied, would be the ignorance of the

poet, if he calls it such a slight matter to possess
virtue, which is the hardest thing in the world, as
all men agree.
Then I remarked :Upon my word, how oppor-
tunely it has happened that Prodicus is here to join
in our discussion ! For it is very likely, Protagoras,
that Prodicus' wisdom is a gift of long ago from
heaven, beginning either in the time of Simonides
or even earlier. But you, so skilled in many other
things, appear to be unskilled in this, and lack the
skill that I can boast because I am a disciple of the
great Prodicus ; and so now I find you do not under-
stand that perhaps Simonides did not conceive
"hard" in the way that you conceive it just —
as, in the case of " awful," Prodicus here corrects
me each time I use the word in praising you or
someone else ; when I say, for instance, that
Protagoras is an awfully wise man, he asks if I am
not ashamed to call good things awful. For awful,
he says, is bad thus no one on this or that occasion
;
speaks of " awful wealth " or " awful peace " or

" awful health," but we say " awful disease,"
" awful war " or " awful poverty," taking " a^vful "
to be " bad." So perhaps " hard " also was intended
by the Ceans and Simonides as either " bad " or
something else that you do not understand : let us
therefore ask Prodicus, for it is fair to question him
191
PLATO
C epcoTaw ri eXeyev, to ITpoSt/ce, to ;)âAe7rov Si-
ficoviSrjg; Ka/cdv, ^4'V- ^''^ raur dpa Kal
/ze/xêrai, ryv 8' iyco, a> DpoSt/ce, tw FltTra/cov
Xdyovra âXerrov eadXov ejjbfxevai, axmep av el
-qKovev avTov Xdyovros on icrrl KaKov iadXov
efifievaL. 'AAAa tl otet, €(f)rj, Xeyeiv, co Sco-
Kpares, dXXo iq Tovro, /cat ovetStêiv
Yiijxcovih-qv
r(x> YliTTaKO), on, rd ovofiara ovk r^Triararo
opdcos BiaipeXv are Aecr^to? wv Kal ev <j>aivfj
âp^dpcp reOpafifxevos ; 'A/coyet? S-q, ecfyrjv iyd),
D (L Ylpcorayopa, YlpoSiKov rouSe. ^^cls ti Trpos
ravra Xeyetv; Kal 6 Upcorayopas, HoXXov ye
Set, ^(f>f], ovTixi'S ^xîv, CO Ilp68t,K€' aXX iyd) ev
ofS' on Kal TitficovlSrjg ro ;\;aAe7r6v eXeyev oirep
Tj/jLeis ol dXXoL, ov TO KaKov, dXX' o av fxrj paSiov
fj,
dXXd 8ta TToAAcDv TTpay/jbdrcov yiyv-qrai. 'AAAa
Kal iyd) olpiai, €(f)r]v, 3) X\.p<jiray6pa, rovro Xiyeiv
IjtficovlSrjv, Kal UpoSiKov ye rovde elSevai, dXXd
TTait,eiv /cat aov hoKeZv dTTOTreipdad at, el old? t'
eaei rip aavrov Xoyo) ôrjOeiv inel on, ye 2t-
E ficovlSrjs ov Xeyei rd yaXeTTOV KaKov, jxeya re-
Kp.'iqpiov ianv evdvs rd fierd rovro prjjxa' Xeyei.
ydp on
deos dv fjLovos rovr exoi yepas.
ov rovro ye Xeycov, KaKov iadXov efxjxevai,

Si^TTov
elra rov deov (firjoi /jlovov rovro dv eêiv Kal rw
Bed) rovro yepas dneveipLe pLovo)- d/coAaorov ydp

dv rLva Xeyoi luipLOJvihriv d IlpoSt/cos" /cat ovhapid)?
Ketov. dAA' d /xot So/cet Stav'oetoât HipicovLSrjs
iv rovrcp rip aapLan, ideXco aoi elTrelv, el ôvXei
342 Xaêlv fxov TTclpav ottcds ^xco, o av Xeyeis rovro,
192
—
PROTAGORAS
on the dialect of Simonides. What did Simonides
mean, Prodicus, by " hard " ?
" Bad," he replied.
Then it is on this account, Prodicus, I said, that he
blames Pittacus for saying it is hard to be good,
just as though he heard him say it is bad to be good.
Well, Socrates, he said, what else do you think
Simonides meant ? Was he not reproaching Pittacus
for not knowing how to distinguish words correctly,
Lesbian as he was, and nurtured in a foreign tongue ?
You hear, Protagoras, I said, what Prodicus here
suggests : have you anything to say upon it ?
The case, said Protagoras, is far otherwise,
Prodicus : I am quite sure that Simonides meant by
—
" hard " the same as we generally do not " bad,"
but whatever is not easy and involves a great
amount of trouble.
Ah, I agree with you, Protagoras, I said, that
this is Simonides* meaning, and that our friend
Prodicus knows it, but is joking and chooses to
experiment on you to see if you will be able to
support your o^vn statement. For that Simonides
does not mean that " hard " is " bad " we have
clear proof forthwith in the next phrase, where he
says
God alone can have this privilege.
Surely he cannot mean that it is bad to be good,
if he proceeds here to say that God alone can have
this thing, and attributes this privilege to God only :
otherwise Prodicus would call Simonides a rake, and
no true Cean. But I should Hke to tell you what I
take to be Simonides' intention in this ode, if you
care to test my powers, as you put it,^ in the matter
» Cf. 339 A above.
193
PLATO
nepi, eiTcov iav Se ôvXr), aov dKovaofJiai. o jxev
ovv YlpixiTayopas aKovaas fiov ravra Xiyovros,
El ai) fiovXei, €(f>7j, c5 SoJ/cpares" o Se TipoSiKos
T€ Kal 6 'iTTTTtas" eKeXcveTrjv ttolvv, Kal ol aXXoi.
Eyco TOLVVV, rjv 8' iy(^, o. ye pLOi SoKel Trepi
Tov aa/jLaros rovrov, ireipdaoixai vpiLV SteêXdelv.
(f)LXoao(f)La yap iari iraXaLordrri re /cat TrXeicm)
tGxv 'EAAt^vcuv Iv Kprjrr) re /cat iv AaKeBalfxovi,
B KaL ao(f)Larat TrXelaroL yrjg eKel elaiv dXX i^-
apvovvrai Kal axf]P'0.rit,ovTai dpbadels elvat, Iva
fiT] KardSrjXoi coaiv on ao(j>ia rcov 'KXXrjvajv
Tiepieiaiv, ojairepous Ylpcorayopas eXeye rovs
ao(f)LaTds, dXXd SoKcoai rw fidx^crdai /cat dvhpeia
TTepietvai, ^yovfievoi, el yvcoadelev co Trepieiai,
navra's rovro daK-qaeiv, rrjv aocjtiav. vvv Se
aTTOKpvi/jdfievoi eKeZvo i^-qTraTiJKaaL rovs ev rats
TToXeai XaKO}vit,ovras , Kal ol fxev cord re Kar-
C dyvvvrai fiifioviJievoi avrovs, /cat Ijxdvras nepi-
ecXtrrovrai Kal (fîXoyvixvaarovai /cat ^paêlas dva-
ôXds (jyopovaiv, to? St) rovrois Kparovvras rcov
'ISiXX-^voiv rovs AaKeSaifiovLovs' ol Se Aa/ce-
SaifiovLOL eTretSav ôvXcjvrai dveSrjV rols Trap'
avrois avyyeveadai aoîaraZs, Kal tJStj axdcovrai
Xddpa ^vyyiyvofievoi, êvrjXaaias 7TOLovp,evoL rcov
re XaKcovLôvrcov rovrcov Kal edv ris aAAo? êvos
cov emhrjixricrQ y avyyiyvovrai rols aoîGrals Xav-
ddvovres rovs êvovs, Kal avroi ovSeva icoai
D riov vecov els rds dXXas TToXeis eîevai, cooTTep
*
Cf. 316 D. This whole passage is a mocking answer to
Protagoras's eulogy of sophistry.
* Short cloaks or capes worn in a fashion imitated from
the Spartans.
194
PROTAGORAS
of verses ; though if you would rather, I will hear
your account.
\Mien Protagoras heard me say this As you —
please, Socrates, he said ; then Prodicus and
Hippias strongly urged me, and the rest of them also.
Well then, I said, I will try to explain to you
my o\vn feeUng about this poem. Now philosophy
is of more ancient and abundant growth in Crete and
Lacedaemon than in any other part of Greece,
and sophists are more numerous in those regions :
but the people there deny it and make pretence
of ignorance, in order to prevent the discovery that
it is by wisdom that they have ascendancy over the
rest of the Greeks, hke those sophists of whom

Protagoras was speaking ^ they prefer it to be
;
thought that they owe their superiority to fighting

and valour, conceiving that the revelation of its real
cause would lead everyone to practise this wisdom.
So well have they kept their secret that they have
deceived the followers of the Spartan cult in our
cities, with the result that some get broken ears
by imitating them, bind their knuckles with thongs,
go in for muscular exercises, and wear dashing little
cloaks,^ as though it were by these means that the
Spartans were the masters of Greece. And when
the Spartans wish to converse unrestrainedly with
their sophists, and begin to chafe at the secrecy
of their meetings, they pass alien acts against the
laconizing set ^ and any other strangers within their
gates, and have meetings with the sophists unknown
to the foreigners while on their part they do not
;
permit any of their young men to travel abroad

' t.#. people who have come to acquire the Spartan way
of hfe, in order to spread it in other cities.
195
PLATO
ovoe l^prjres, ti'a firj a avrol
aTTOfxavOdvcoaiv
SLSdcTKovGLV . clal Se ravraig
rai? TToXeaiv
iv
ov fxovou dvSpe? iwl TratSeucret fieya ^povovvres,
aXkd Koi yvvaiKes. yvolre 8* dv, on iyoj raura
aXrÔrj Xeyco /cat AaKeSatfjUoVLOt, Trpog (j>i\oao(j)iav
Kai Xoyovs dptara TreTTaihevvraL, aiSe" et yap
ideXcL TLS AaKeSaLfioviojv to) âyXordrcp avy-
E yeveadai, rd fiev Trpcora iv rots XoyoLS evp-qaei
avTov <f)avX6v riva (f)aLv6fjL€Vov eTretra, ottov dv ,
Tvxfj rcjv Xeyojxevoiv, iveâXe prjfjLa d^Lov Xoyov

ppa^v Koi cruvearpajxixevov aiOTrep heivds aKovri-
arrj'S, mare (âiveadai rov irpoahLoXeyopLevov Trat-
Sos" firjSev êXriiij. ovv avro /cat rchv

rovTO
vvv elalv ot Karavevo-qKaai Kai Tciiv irdXai, otl
TO XaKcovilêiv ttoXv fj,dXX6v iari <l>LXoaoêZv tj
(f)i,XoyviJLvaaT€tv, etSore? on rotavra olov t\
343 etvai pruxara (jideyyeadai reAe'co? TreTraiSev ixevov
eanv avdpcoTrov. rovrcov -^v /cat QaXrjs 6 Mt-
X-qariog /cat Ulttukos 6 MvnXrjvalo? /cat Bta?
o UpiTjvevs /cat TioXcjov 6 rjfjieTepos /cat KAeo/8ouAo?
o AlvSlos Kai Îvacov 6 \rjv€vs, /cat e^So/xo?
€V TovroLs iXeyero Aa/ceSat/xoi'ios' Xt'Aoji'. ovtol
Travres ^rÂcorat /cat ipaaral /cat fxaOrjTai rjaav
TTJs AaKedacfiovLcov TzaiSetas" /cat KarajxddoL av
ng avTcbv rrjv (jo(f)iav roLavrrjv ovaav, p-qfiara
^pa)(€a d^LOfjii'rjfxovevra iKaano elprjfMeva, <d>^
B ovroi Kai KOLvi] ^vveXdovres aTrapx^jv rrjs ao(j)ia<s
dvedeaav tw ÂttoXXcovc els tov vecjv rov iv AeA-
0019, ypdi/javT€s ravra, d 8r] Trdvres vfivovai,
yvcodi aavTov Kai firjSev dyav. rov Srj evcKa
ravra Xeyco; on ovros 6 rponog rjv rcbv TraXaLOJv
rrjs <f)iXoao(f)Las, ^paxvXoyla ns AaKcoviK'q' Kai 817
196
—
PROTAGORAS
to the other cities —
in this rule they resemble the
Cretans — they unlearn what they are taught at
lest
home. In those two states there are not only men
but women also who pride themselves on their
education and you can tell that what I say is
;
true and that the Spartans have the best education

in philosophy and argument by this if you choose
:
to consort with the meanest of Spartans, at first

you will find him making a poor show in the conversa-
tion; but soon, at some point or other in the
discussion, he gets home with a notable remark,
—
short and compressed a deadly shot that makes
his interlocutor seem hke a helpless child. Hence
this very truth has been observed by certain persons
both in our day and in former times that the —
Spartan cult is much more the pursuit of wisdom
than of athletics for they know that a man's
;
ability to utter such remarks is to be ascribed to

his perfect education. Such men were Thales of
Miletus, Pittacus of Mytilene, Bias of Priene, Solon
of our city, Cleobulus of Lindus, Myson of Chen, and,
last of the traditional seven, Chilon of Sparta. All
these were enthusiasts, lovers and disciples of the
Spartan culture and you can recognize that char-
;
acter in their wisdom by the short, memorable

sayings that fell from each of them : they assembled
together and dedicated these as the first-fruits of
their lore to Apollo in his Delphic temple, inscribing
there those maxims which are on every tongue
"Know thyself" and "Nothing overmuch." To
what intent do I say this ? To show how the ancient
philosophy had this style of laconic brevity ; and
^ d add. Hermann.
197
PLATO
ffai rov YlirraKov tSta rovro ro
TTepie<ji4pero
prjfx,a €yKix}fXLat,6jjL€Vov vtto rwv ro x'^^^'ôv
ao(f)a)V,
C iadXov efjifjueuat. 6 ovv St/xtuvtST^?, are <J)l\6-

TLfxos cov inl ao<f)ia, eyuco on, el KadeXoi tovto
ro prjfia coanep evhoKifiovvra a.dXr]rr}v /cat irepi-
yevoiro avrov, avrog evSoKifx-qaet iv rot? rare
avdpa)7TOLs. els rovro ovv ro prj/xa /cat rovrov
eveKa rovro) emôvXevoiv KoXovaai avro d-rrav
ro dafia TreTTOLrjKev, cS? jxoi. (f>aLverai.
YiTTKjKe^cLjxeda hr] avro Koivfj dnavres, el
apa eyoj aXrjdrj Xeyco. evOiig yap ro rrpajrov
rov acr/zaro? fxaviKov dv (f>aveiT), el ôvX6p,evos
D Xeyeiv, ort dvSpa dyaOov yeveadat xP-Xeirov,
enetra eveâXe ro fxev. rovro yap ovhe rrpos
eva Xoyov âiverai ifxê^Xijadai, idv fi-q ris
VTToXa^r) TTpog ro rov Ut,rraKov prj[j,a warrep
epcôvra Xeyeiv rov HifxcovL^rjv Xeyovros rov
TlirraKov on xP-XeTrov eadXov efifxevai,, d/xî-
a^-qrovvra elrreZv on ovk, dXXd yeveaOat, p.ev
XO-Xenov dvhpa dyadov eanv, c3 HirraKe, (Ls
dXrjdojs, OVK dXrideia dyadov, ovk errl rovrcp
E Xeyei rrjv dX-qdeiav, (Lg dpa ovrcov nvwv rd>v
p,ev (x)s aXrjddjg dyadcov [M€V,
dyadcov, rd>v Se
ov fxevroL dX-q9dJg' evrjdeg yap rovro ye âveir)
dv /cat ov YiLfxcDvihov aAA' inrepârov Set deZvai
ev rep aafxan ro dXadea)s, ovrcoai ttcjs vtt-
eiTTOvra ro rov UtrraKov, axnrep dv el detpuev
avrov Xeyovra rov YiirraKov /cat luipuxjvih-qv
dTTOKpiv6p,evov , elnovra c5 dvdpojrroi, ;!âAe7roi'
eadXov ep-p-evai, rov he aTTOKpLvopievov on, a)
^ In this view of the purpose of the poem (which is to
show that there is no lasting perfection in human hfe), and
198
PROTAGORAS
so it was that the saying of Pittacus was privately
handed about -nith high approbation among the
—
sages that it is hard to be good. Then Simonides,
ambitious to get a name for -wisdom, perceived that
if he could overthrow this saying, as one might
some famous athlete, and become its conqueror,
he would win fame himself amongst men of that
day. Accordingly it was against this saying, and
with this aim, that he composed the whole poem
as a means of covertly assaihng and abasing this
maxim, as it seems to me.^
Now let us all combine in considering whether
my account is really true. The opening of the ode
must at once appear crazy if, while intending to
say that it is hard for a man to become good, he
inserted " indeed." There is no sort of sense, I
imagine, in this insertion, unless we suppose that
Simonides is addressing himself to the saying of
Pittacus as a disputant —
Pittacus says It is hard
:
to be good ;and the poet controverts this by observ-

—
ing No, but to become good, indeed, is hard for a
—
man, Pittacus, truly not truly good he does not
;
mention truth in this connexion, or imply that some

things are truly good, while others are good but
not truly so this would seem silly and unhke
:
Simonides. We must rather take the " truly " as a

poetical transposition, and first quote the saying of
Pittacus in some such way as this let us suppose
:
Pittacus himself to be speaking and Simonides reply-

ing, as thus—Good people, he says, it is hard to be
—
good ; and the poet answers Pittacus, what you
inthe detailed commentary that follows, Socrates is aping

the disquisitions of the more literary sophists {e.g. Hippias,
who warmly approves, 347 a).
199
PLATO
344 TliTTaKC, ovK dXTjdrj Ae'yet?* ov yap etvat aXXa
yeveadai fxev icrrtv avhpa ayaSov X^P^^ '''^ '^^'
TToal Koi vow rerpdyoivov, dvev ifjoyov rervyiiivov,
Xo-X^TTov dXaOecos- ovrco (f>aiverai [roy- Trpog
Xoyov TO /LteV ipLê^Xrjjxivov /cat ro dXadioJS
opOcbs ctt' iaxdrcp Keifxevov Kai ra CTrtovra
ndvra tovtco fxaprvpeZ, otl ovtcos eip-qrai. ttoX-
Xd fi€V yap eoTL /cai Trepl eKdarov tcov ev rep
B aa/jLari elprjfjievwv aTroSetât ws ev TreTTOiTyraf

TTavv yap ;âpievTa>S' Kal {MefieXTjuevajs e;\;et' dAAa
fiaKpov dv avro ovrcx) hieXdelv aAAa rov
evT]
rvTTov avrov rov oXov hieêXdcojxev Kal ttjv ôv-

X-qoLV, ore rravros /xaAAoi' e'Aeyp^ds' ecrrt rov Uir-
raKelov prjpbaros 8ta 7701^x0? rod aafxarog.
Aeyei ydp p,€rd rovro oXiya SlcXOcov, to? av
el Xeyot Xoyov, ori yeveadai /xev dvhpa dyadou
Xo-Xerrov dXadecDS, olov re fievroL em ye XP^^^^
rivd' yevopievov Se Sta/xeVeiv ev ravrrj rfj eêt
C Kal etvai dvhpa dyadov, cos av Xeyeis, a) IlLrraKe,
dbvvarov Kal ovk dvdpcoireiov, dAAa deos av pLovos
rovro exot ro yepas,
dvSpa 8' OVK eari pbr) ov KaKov €/x/x€vai,
ov dv dpi,rixo.vos avp,(f)opd KaQeXrj.
riva ovv dpLrjxo.vos KadaipeZ ev itXolov

avp-cfjopd
dpxfji 8rjXov on
ISiconqv o p-ev yap
ov rov
ihiiorrjs del Kadrjprjrai.' coairep ovv ov rov Kei-
p,ev6v Tt? dv Kara^dXot, dXXd rov p,ev eardjra
TTore Kara^dXoL dv ri9, ware Kelpcevov TTOirjaai,
D rov 8e Keipevov ov, ovrco Kal rov evpL-qxf^vov ovra
TTore dp,rjXO'Vos dv avp.(j)opd KadeXot, rov Se dei
* TO seel. Heindorf.
200
—
PROTAGORAS
say is not true, for it is not being but becoming good,
—
Indeed in hands and feet and mind foursquare,
fashioned without reproach —
that is truly hard.
In this way we see a purpose in the insertion of
" indeed," and that the " truly " is correctly placed
at the end ;and all that comes after corroborates
this view of his meaning. There are many points
in the various expressions of the poem which might
be instanced to show its fine composition, for it is a
work of very elegant and elaborate art ; but it would
take too long to detail all its beauties. However,
let us go over its general outline and intention,
which is assuredly to refute Pittacus' saying, through-
out the ode.
Proceeding a little way on from our passage, just
as though he were making a speech, he says to
become, indeed, a good man is truly hard (not but
what it is possible for a certain space of time) ;
" but to continue in this state of what one has
become, and to be a good man is, as you say, Pittacus,
impossible, superhuman :God alone can have this
privilege
For that man cannot help but be bad

Whom irresistible mischance has overthrown.
Now who is it that an irresistible mischance over-
throws in the command of a ship ? Clearly not the
ordinary man, for he may be overcome at any time ;
just as you cannot knock over one who is lying

doAvn, but one who is standing you might knock
;
over a standing man so as to make him lie do\vn,

not one who is lying down already. So it is a man
apt to resist that an irresistible mischance would
overthrow, and not one who could never resist
201
PLATO
afirj)(avov ovra ov' kol rov KVêpvT^rrjV /ueya?
X^tfxojv eTTLTTecTOiV aiir]-)(avov av -noi-qaeie, /cat
yecopyov x'^^^'^ wpa eTreXdovcra afxrjxo-vov av
deirj, Kol larpov ravra ravra. rco fxev yap
eadXcp iyxcopeZ KaKa> yevladai, cjcttt^p /cai Trap'
oAAou TTOirjTov pbapTvpeXraL rov elnomos
avrap dvrjp ayaOos Tore p.kv KaKos, oAAore
8' eadXos'
rep he KaKO) ovk iyxcopel yeviaQai, aXX ael

E eivai avayKTj' coare rov p,kv evpLT^xo-vov Kal ao(f)6v
/catayadov eTreiSar djLt7^;âvos' avp,(ôpa KaddXrj,
OVK eari p,r] ov KaKov epLpLevaL' crv Se ^17?, a)
DtTra/ce, ;;âAe7r6v iadXov efxpuevai' ro S' earl
yeveo-dai p.€v ;)(aAe7rof, Svvarov 8e, eadXov, cfifxe-
vaL Se dSvvarov
TTpdâs fiev yap ev nag dvrjp dyados,

KaKos 8 et KaKcos-
Tt? odv els ypafjifxara dyaOrj irpdîg earn, /cat
345 Tt? dvSpa dyaOov ypafipLara ;

Trotet et? SrjXov
ort rj rovrcov uddrjais. ris 8e evirpayia dyadov
Larpov TTOtet; hriXov on rj rwv Kap,v6vrcov rTJs
depaTTeias /xdOrjais. /ca/co? 8e KaKa>s' ris ovv
av KaKos larpos ylvoiro; SrjXov on, a> Trpcorov
fxev VTTapxet larpco etvat, eneLra dyado) larpa>-
odros yap av Kal KaKos yevoiro' rj/jLeXs 8e oi
larpiKTJs ovk av TTore yevotfieOa KaKcbs
ISiiorai
TTpdâvres ovre larpol ovre reKroves ovre dXXo
B ovhkv rcov roiovrojv oang 8e p,T] larpos av yi-
voiro KaKcos Trpdâs, SrjXov on
ovSe /ca/co? larpos.
ovroj Kal 6 fxkv dyaOos dvrjp yevoir av irore Kal
202
— — ;
PROTAGORAS
anything. A great storm breaking over a steersman
will render him helpless, and a severe season will
leave a farmer helpless, and a doctor \vill be in the
same case. For the good has the capacity of
becoming bad, as we have witness in another poet *
who said
Nay more, the virtuous man is at one time bad, at another

good.
whereas the bad man has no capacity for becoming,

but must ever be, what he is so that when an
;
irresistible mischance overthrows him who is re-

sourceful, wise, and good, he cannot but be bad ;
and you say, Pittacus, that it is hard to be good
that is, to become good, indeed, is hard, though
jjossible, but to be good is impossible for * : —
If he hath fared well, every man is good ;
Bad, if ill.
Now what is good faring in letters the thing that —

makes a man good at them ? Clearly, the study of
letters. What welfare makes a good doctor ?
Clearly, the study of the cure of the ailing. " Bad,'
if ill " : who could become a bad doctor ? Clearly,
he who in the first place is a doctor, and in the
second, a good doctor ; for he could become a bad
one also whereas we, who are laymen in respect
:
of medicine, could never by faring ill become either

doctors or joiners or anything else of that sort
and if one cannot become a doctor by faring ill,
clearly one cannot become a bad one either. In
the same way the good man may one day become
^ Unknown.
^ The quotation of Simonides' poem is resumed (from
Uic).
SOS
PLATO
Kra/co? r] vno ^povov t] vtto ttovov -^ vtto voaov
^ VTTO aXXov Tivos TTeptTTTWfjiaTos' avTTj yap
fiovT) care KaKr) Trpdîs, eTricrrrjiirjs (Treprjdijvai'
o 8^ KaKos ovk av rrore yivoiro KaKos'
dvrjp
ean yap dAA' el /xeAAet KaKos yeviaQai,
aei'
Set avTov TTporepov ayadov yeveod ai. ware /cat
C TOVTO rov aafxaros Trpos tovto retVet, on elvai
jxev dvSpa ayaOov ovx olov re SiareXovvra aya-
dov, yeviadai 8e ayaQov olov re, /cat KaKov ye
rov avrov rovrov evri TrXetarov Se /cat dpiarol
elaw ovs av ol 6eol (fjiXaJatv.
Tavrd re ovv Trdvra Tipos rov UcrraKov ei-
pr)rai, /cat rd emovra ye rov aap,aro? en p.aX\ov
hrjXol. (f)7jal ydp-
rovvcKev ov TTor eyd) ro firj yeveaOai Svvarov

Si^'qfievos Kevedv e? dirpaKrov eAvrtSa fxolpav
alcbvog âXecj,
7ravdfjiO}p,ov dvdpcoTrov, evpveSovs oaoi KapTTOv
alvvfieOa xdovos'
D em 0'^ vyiZv evpojv aTrayyeXeco,
(f)rjmv' ovroi aôhpa /cat St' oXov rov aafiaros

irreêpxerai rep rov IliTTa/coLi p-^fian'
Trdvras S* eTraLvrjpLL /cat (f)iXeci>
eKwv oans ^p^lj

jxrjSev alaxpov' dvdyKr) 8' ouSe êoi fidxovrai'
/cat rovr* earl Trpos ro avro rovro elpr]fj,evov.

ov yap ovrojs aTraihevros rjv Hipiajv ih-qs inare ,
rovrovs (f)dvat evaLvelv, os dv eKd>v fxrjSev Kah")v

TTOifj, COS ovrcov nvcov ol CKOvres /ca/ca ttolovoiv.
iyd) yap apêSov n otfxai, rovro, on ouSet? riov

204
— — — —
PROTAGORAS
bad through the effect either of time or work or
illnessor some other accident for there is only ;
—
one sort of ill fare the deprivation of knowledge.
But the bad man can never become bad he is that :
always. If he is to become bad, he must previously

become good. Hence the upshot of this part of the
poem is that it is impossible to be a good man,
continuing to be good, but possible to become
good, and bad also, in the case of the same person.
And then
Best also for the longest space are they whom the gods love.*
All this has been said with reference to Pittacus,
as is made still plainer by the ensuing verses, in
which he says
Therefore never shall I, in quest of what cannot corae to
pass, vainly cast my
life's lot upon a hope impracticable
of finding a man wholly blameless amongst us who partake
of the fruit of the broad-based earth. If I light upon him,
be sure I will report it
says he and in this vehement tone he pursues the

;
saying of Pittacus all through the poem :
But praise and love everyone willingly committing no

I
baseness; for against necessity not even the gods make
war.
This also is spoken -with the same intent. For

Simonides was not so ill-educated as to say that he
praised a person who ^vilhngly did no evil, as though
there were some who did evil willingly. I am
fair ly sure of this —
that none of the wise men con -
' Probably a loose quotation of a line of the poem which
was Kal rb trXeiaTov apicrroi, roui k€ deal fpiKQiaiv (Aars).
^ «iri 0' Adam : (irl 5' vfifu)/ Bergk : fireid' mss.

VOL. IV 11 205
PLATO
avSpcov rjyeXTai, ovSeva dvdpa>7TCOV CKOura
ao(f)(x)v
E iâfiaprdveLV ovSe ataxpd t€ Kal KaKo. CKOvra

€pydt,€ad at, aXX ev icracnv on vavres oi rd
alaxpd Kal rd /ca/ca ttolovvtcs aKovres TToiovcrt,'
/cat Kal o ^Lp,a)vi.8r]g ov^ os dv fi-q /ca/ca ttoltj

br)
€K(x}v, rovTcov (f)r]alv eTTaLveTrjs elvaL, oAAa rrepl

iavTOv XeyeL rovro to e/ccov. rjyelTO ydp dv-
hpa KoXov Kdyadov TroAAa/cts' avrov cTravay/caêiv
346 <f)iXov yiyveadai /cat iTTaiverrjv [(^lAetv /cat
rivl
CTratvetv]/ olov dvSpl TToXXaKis avfi^rjvai fMTjrepa
7] TTarepa oXXokotov tj Trarpiha ri dXko ti rwv
roiovrcov. tovs fxkv ovv TTovrjpovs, orav tolovtov
Ti avrols avfji^fj, axnrep dajxevovs opav Kal ifjd-
yovras eTnBeLKvvvat Kal Karrjyopelv ttjv TTOvqpiav
Tcjv yovecov ^ TrarplSos, Iva avrols dfxeXovaiv
avrdjv firj iyKoXdJaiv ol avSpconoL (Mrjh* ovclSl-
t,oiaiv oTi dfieXovcTLV, coare en fiaXXov ipeyeiv
B re avrovs Kal exdpo-S eKOvmovs Trpos rat? avay-
Kaiais^ TTpoarldeadaf rovs 8 dyadovs eTTiKpv-
TTreadai re Kal erraLvelv dvayKdêadai, Kal dv n
opyiaddxTL rots yovevaiv t] Trarpihi dBiKrjdevres,
avrovs eavrovs Trapapivdeladai Kal SiaXXdrreadat
7TpoaavayKdt,ovras eavrovs (fx^Xetv roiis eavrdJv
Kal eTTaivelv. TToXXdKLs Se, ot/Ltai, /cat 2t/x6u-
vlStjs Kal avros t] rvpawov •^ aAAov
r)yâaro
TiP'o. rcbv roiovrcDV eTratveaat Kal eyKcopudaaL
C ovx eKOiV, dAA' dvayKat,6ixevos ravra Stj Kal .
TO) YlirraKO) Xeyet on eyco, c5 IltTTa/ce, ov 8id

ravrd ae ifieya) on et/xt (jjiXoôyos, eirel
^
e/xoLy^ eâpKel os dv fir) /ca/coy ?j
* (piXelv Kal (Traive'iv secl. Grou.

206
—
PROTAGORAS
siders that anybody ever willingly errs or >>i^î"g^y fi^
"does base and evil deed g they are well awa^'^ \\\st.\.
;
'âll who do base and e\il things do them u n\^-iningly ;
arid so Simonides does not say he gives his praise

to the person who willingly does no e\al, but uses the
word " willingly " of himself. For he considered ,
that a man of sense and honour often constrains ,
himself to become a friend and approver of some

person, as when a man chances to have an un-
congenial mother or father or country or other such
connexion. Now when this sort of thing befalls
the wicked, they seem glad to see their parents'
or country's faults, and complainingly point them
out and inveigh against them, in order that their o^^"^l
neglect of them may not be denounced by their
neighbours, who might otherwise reproach them for
being so neglectful and hence they multiply their
;
complaints and add voluntary to unavoidable feuds.

But good men, he knew, conceal the trouble and
constrain themselves to praise, and if they have any
reason to be angered against their parents or country
for some wrong done to them they pacify and
conciUate their feeUngs, compelling themselves to
love and praise their o^vn people. And many a
time, I think, Simonides was conscious that he had
praised and eulogized some tyrant or other such
person, not wilhngly, but under compulsion. So he
—
proceeds to tell Pittacus I, Pittacus, do not reproach
you merely because I am apt to reproach, since
For my part I am content with whosoever is not evil or
' di'a7Ka^cut Heusde : Mir^Kon.'i jiss.
207
. —
PLATO
/LtTjS' ayav dTrdXafxvo?, clScos t' ovrjaLTroXiv^ St/cav
vy 1.7)9 dv-qp-
ov fjLLv^ iyoj yu.to/x7jao/xat.
ov yap et/Ltt (fytXofxcofjLOS'
Tojv yap rjXidioov aTrelpcov yevedXa,
cuCTT et TLs )(aLp€L ipiycjv , ipLTrXriadeirj dv CKelvovg
fji€IJ.(f)6fjL€VOS
Trdvra toi KoXd, rolai r* ala^pd firj fidniKrai.
ov TOVTO Xeyei, cooTrep dv el eAeye TravTa rot

D XevKa, otg jxiXava firj ficfjiiKTai' yeXolov yap dv
€LT] TToXXaxfj' dXX OT6 avTos /cat rd jxeaa arro-
Sexcrai ware fir] tpeyeiv /cat ov ^rjTw, ^4>ti,
7Tavdfioip,ov dvdpcoTTOV, evpveSovg daoi Kapnov
alvv/xeOa xôvos, em v/xlv evpojv dirayyeXeco'
oiare rovrov y eVe/ca ovbeva eTTaive(yo\iai, oAAa
/Ltot eâpKCL, dv fj
pieao? /cat firjSev KaKov ttoltj,
0)S eyd) iravras (f>i,Xe(o /cat eTraiVrj/xt — /cat rfj (f>ojvfj

evravda /ce^pTjrat rfj rdjv MvrtXrjvatcov , d)s Trpog
E HiTTaKov ro iravras Be eTraivrjfii /cat
Xeyojv
îXeui eKOiv {evravda Set ev rat ckcjv SiaXaêlv
Xeyovra) oaris ^pBrj fjLrjSev alaxpdv, aKOJV 8'
eariv ovs iyd) inaLVcb Kai (j)iXcx). ae ovv, /cat
et fjieaojs eXeyes eTneLKrj /cat dXr^drj, c5 UtrraKe,
347 ovK dv TTore eifieyov. vvv Se atfyohpa yap /cat

rrepl rcbv /xeyLcrrajv ipevSofievos So/cet? dXrjdrj
Xeyeiv, 8td ravrd ae eyd) ipeyio.
Taura /xot So/cet, cS UpoSiKe /cat Ylpcorayopa,
"qv 8' eyco, HLpLcoviSrjs SiavoovpLevos TrcTrotT^/ceVat
rovro ro aap,a. /cat o 'iTTTrta?, Ey /xei/ /iot 8o'
^ T ovrjffiTToXLv G. Hermann 7e ovrjaei wdXii' mss.
:
* fuv Schleiermacher fi^v mss. :
208
PROTAGORAS
too intractable. He who knows Right, the support of a
city, is a healthy man ; him I shall never blame, for to
blame I am not apt. Infinite is the race of fools.
So that whoever delights in reproaching would have

his fill of blaming them :
Verily, all things are fair that have in them no admixture

of base.
By he does not mean to say, as it were, that

this
all things are white that have no admixture of
black that would be ridiculous in many ways
; but ;
that he himself accepts the average sort without

reproaching them. " I do not seek," said he, " a
man wholly blameless amongst us who partake of
the fruit of the broad-based earth if I light upon :
him, be sure I will report it " meaning, " If I wait —

for that, I shall never find anyone to praise. No, I
am contenta man be average and do nothing
if
evil, since I love and praise all
" and there he
has —
used a Mytilenaean word,^ for his " I praise and
love all willingly " is addressed to Pittacus (here at
" wilUngly " one should make a pause) ; " all who
—
commit nothing base, but some there are whom I
praise and love unwillingly. Hence I should never
reproach you, Pittacus, if you would only speak
what is moderately reasonable and true. But as it
is, since you lie so grievously about the greatest
matters with an air of speaking the truth, on this

score I reproach you."
Such is my view, Prodicus and Protagoras, I said,
of Simonides' intention in composing this ode.
Then Hippias remarked It certainly seems to :
* The form
of the word iralyrifu is pedantically adduced
to emphfisize the poet's censure of Pittacus.
209
,
PLATO
K€is, €<j)y], a) HwKpareg, /cat av
rod aajxaros rrepl
BieXrjXvOevai- eari fxevrot,i/jiol Aoyo?
€(f)r], /cat
B TTcpl avTOV €V excov, ov VfMLV eTTiheiô), av ôvXr]-
ade. Kal 6 'AA/ctîaSTj?, Nat, e(f)r], <L 'iTnria,
eiaavdls ye* ScKaiov eariv, d cofJioXoyr]-
vvv Se
aarrfv irpos aXXriXoi Ylpoirayopas koX TiOJKpaT'qg,
Tlpcorayopas pi€v ei en ôuAerat epcorav, drro-
Kpiveadai TtCOKpaT-q, ei 8e St) ôvXerai iLcoKparei
aTTOKpiveadai, ipcorav rov erepov. /cat eyco €L7tov
ETTtTpeTTCo fiev eycoye IlpcDTayopa orrorepov avTcp
C ^8lov el Se ôvXer at, rrepl fxev aapbdrcov re /cat
eTTcov eaaoj/Jiev, Tiepl Se ojv to rrpcoTov eyu> ae
r]pa>rr](ja, d) Upajrayopa, rjSecog dv evl reXos
eXdoifii, jxerd aov aKOTrovfievog Kal yap So/cei.
fjLoi TO TTepi TTOLrjaews SiaXeyeaOat o/jioioTarov

eivat, rols (JVfXTToalois rots tcjv (f)auXa)V Kal dyo-
paicov dvOpdiTTCov. Kal yap ovrot, Sta ro fi-q
Svvaadat, aAArÂots' St' iavTcJov avvelvai, ev rat
TTorcp pLTjhe Sta tt^? eavrwv (fxjovrjs /cat rcov Xoyojv
D TOJv eavTOJv vtto aTratSeyCTta?, rifxias ttolovol
ras avX-qrpihas, ttoXXov /JLiaOovfievoi dXXorpiav
^wvrjv TTjv ra>v avXdJv, Kal Std ttjs eKelvcov (f)0}vrjs
aXXi^Xoig avveiaiv ottov Se /caAot Kdyadol avfi-
TToraL /cat vreTratSeyêvot elaiv, ovk dv tSot?
OVT avXr^rplSas ovre 6p)(riaTpihas ovre ipaXrpLag
aXX avTovs avroLs LKavovs ovras cruvelvai dvev
rcjv Xiqpojv re /cat TratStcov toutcuv Std rrj? avrdjv
(jjcovrjg, Xeyovrds re Kal dKovovras ev fxepei eavrwv
E Kocr/JLLCDS, Kav Trdvv ttoXvv olvov ttLojolv. ovrco

Se /cat at rotatSe OT;voi;CTtat, edv fiev Xd^covrai
avSpdJv, oloiTTep -^/xcov ol ttoXXol âaiv elvai,
ovSev heovrai, dXXorpias <f)0)V7Js ouSe TTonjrcbv,
210
PROTAGORAS
me, Socrates, that you have given a good exposition
of the poem ; but I also have an elegant discourse
upon it, which I will perform for you if you wish.
Yes, Hippias, said Alcibiades, but some other
time : for the moment the proper thing, according
to the agreement which Protagoras and Socrates
made between them, will be for Socrates to answer
any questions that Protagoras may still wish to put
to him, but if he prefers to answer Socrates, then it
^^^ll be for Socrates to ask.
On this I remarked For my part I place it in

:
Protagoras's hands to do whichever he likes best.

But if he does not mind, let us talk no more of poems
and verses, but consider the points on which I
questioned you at first, Protagoras, and on which
I should be glad to reach, with your help, a conclusion.
For it seems to me that arguing about poetry is
comparable to the \\ine-parties of common market-
folk. These people, owing to their inability to carry
on a familiar conversation over their wine by means
—
of their own voices and discussions such .is their
—
lack of education put a premium on flute-girls by
hiring the extraneous voice of the flute at a high
price, and carry on their intercourse by means of
its utterance. But where the party consists of
thorough gentlemen who have had a proper educa-
tion, you will see neither flute-girls nor dancing-girls
nor harp-girls, but only the company contenting
themselves with their own conversation, and none
—
of these fooleries and frolics each speaking and
listening decently in his turn, even though they
may drink a great deal of wine. And so a gathering
like this of ours, when it includes such men as most
of us claim to be, requires no extraneous voices,
211
PLATO
ovs ovT€ avepeadai olov r earl ncpl cov Xcyovcnv,
enayofievoi re avrovs ol ttoXXoI ev rots Xoyots
ol fiev ravra (f)aai rov TTOirjTrjv voetv, ol S erepa,
TTepl TTpdyjjLaTog SLaXeyojJievoL o aSvuarovaiv i^-
eXeyâi' dXXa rds p-ev roiavra<; avvovaias ecoai
348 ât'peti', avrol 8' iavTois avveicri 8i' eavrcov, ev
Tot? eavT<jov Xoyoig irelpau olXX'^Xcdv Xap^^dvovreg
Kal SiSovre?. tou^ tolovtovs pt-oi SoKel ^^prfvai
pbdXXov pupieladai ep.e re /cat ere, Karadepiivovs
roijs TTOirjrd? avTOvg St 'qp.djv avrcbv irpos (xAAtjAou?
rov? Xoyovs TTOieladai, rrjs dX7]Qeias Kal -qpLoyv
avrwv TTCLpav Xap,^dvovras' Kav p,ev ôvXjj en

epcorav, eroipLos elpii aoi Trapexîv d7TOKpLv6p,e-
vos' edv 8e ôvXrj, crv ep,ol rrapdax^?, Trepl Sy
p.era^v eTvavadpieda hieîovres, rovrois reXos eVt-
B OeZvac. Xeyovros ovv ipiou ravra Kal roiavra
dXXa ovSet^ aTrecraêt o Yipcorayopas oTTorepa
TTonqaoi, elrrev ovv 6 ÂXKiîdSrjs -npog rov
KaAAtW KaAAta, SoKel crot, €<^r), Kal
^Xeijjas, ^Q.
vvv KaXcbs Upcjorayopas TTOielv, ovk edeXcov etre
Scocxei Xoyov etre p^rj hiaoaêlv; ep,OL yap ov
So/cet* dAA' -rjrot, hiaXeyeodo) rj etTreroj on ovk
ideXeu SiaXeyeadai, Iva rovro) /xev ravra avvei-
Sd>p,ev, JjCOKpdrr]? Se aAAoj rep hiaXiyrjraL rj dXXos
Q OCTTt? dv ôvXiqrai dXXcp. Kal 6 Upcorayopas

alaxvvdeis, cu? ye pioi eSoê, rov re 'AA/ct^tctSou
ravra Xeyovros Kal rov KaAAtoy 8eop,evov Kal
rcov dXXa)v cr^êSov ri rdjv Trapovrcov, pLoyLs npov-
212
:
PROTAGORAS
not even of the poets, whom one cannot question
on the sense of what they say when they are
;
adduced in discussion we are generally told by

some that the poet thought so and so, and by others,
something different, and they go on arguing about a
matter which they are powerless to determine. No,
this sort of meeting is avoided by men of culture, who
prefer to converse directly with each other, and to
use their own way of speech in putting one another
by turns to the test. It is this sort of person that
I think you and I ought rather to imitate putting
;
the poets aside, let us hold our discussion together

in our own persons, making trial of the truth and of
ourselves. So if you wish to question me further,
I am at your service as answerer ; but if you like,
put yourself at my service, so that we may clear
up the several points of the inquiry in which we
stopped half-way.
On my saying this and something more of the sort,
Protagoras gave no indication as to which course he
would take. So Alcibiades, looking at Callias, said
Do you consider, Callias, that Protagoras is behaving
properly now in refusing to signify whether he will
or will not answer ? I do not think he is. Let
him either debate or say that he does not want to
debate, so that we may have this understanding
with him ; then Socrates can debate with someone
else, or another of us with some other, as may be
agreed.
Then Protagoras was ashamed, as it seemed to
me, words of Alcibiades, and the more so
at these
when CalUas requested him, together with almost
the whole of the company and so he reluctantly
;
prevailed on himself to take up the debate, and
VOL. IV H 2 213
.
PLATO
Tpdrrero els to hiaXiyeadai /cat eKeXevev epcorav
avTov d)S aTTOKptvoufxevos
EtTTOV Srj iyco, 'Q. Hpiorayopa, firj otov 8ta-
Aeyeadat p.e aoL aXKo rt, ôvX6p,€Vov ^ d avrog
arropo) eKaarore, ravra SLaaKcifjaadaL. rjyov/JLai
yap Trdvv Xeyeiv ri rov "Ofxrjpov to
D avv re Sv' epxofievco, /cat re npo o tov evorjaev.
evTTopcLrepoi yap ttcos dnavTes ecrp,ev ol dvOpcoTTot

TTpos dirav epyov /cat Xoyov /cat Siavorjfxa' pLOVvos
8' e'lTTep Te voiâjj, auri/ca Trepucov l,rjT€L otco
€7rt8et^7]Tai /cat /u,e0' otov êâtajcn^rat, eco?
dv evTvxi)- (Lairep /cat eycb eVe/ca rovrov aoi
fjSecos 8iaXeyop,ai p.dXXov i^ aAAo) tlvl, rjyov-
fMevos ere êXriar* dv eniaKeilfaodai /cat nepl
E TCiJi' dXXcov irepl d>v eiKOS aKOTreZadai tov emeiKrj,
/cat S-q /cat Trept aperrjs. rtVa yap dXXov t] ae;
OS ye ov p,6vov avTos otet /caAo? Kayados elvaL,
wcTTTep TLves aAAot ayrot fiev eTrtet/cet? elaiv,
dXXovs Se ov SvvavTat TTOielv ai) 8e /cat ainds
ay ados et /cat dXXovs otos t el TToielv dyadovs.
/cat ovTO) TTeTTiaTevKas aavTO), ware Kal dXXu>v
ravTTjv Tr]v Texvqv dTTOKpvTTTOfievaiv av y dva-
349 <j)avh6v aeavTov inTOK-qpv^dp.€vos els TrdvTas tovs
"^XXrjvas, aoiîarrjv e7TOvop,daas, aeavTov dne-
(f)r)vas TraiSevaecos /cat dpeTrjs SiSdcrKaXov, -npcoros
TOVTOV pLiaddv d^Lcoaas dpvvadai. ttcos ovv ov
ae XPW TTO-paKoXeZv errl rr^v tovtcov oKeipiv /cat
epcorav Kal dvaKOivovadai; ovk ead^ ottcos ov.
Kal vvv Srj iyd) CKelva, direp to TrpcoTov rjpcorcov
1 Iliad, X, 224,
S14
— ;
PROTAGORAS
asked to have questions put to him, since he was
ready to answer.
—
So I proceeded to say Protagoras, do not suppose
that I have any other desire in debating with you
than to examine the difficulties which occur to
myself at each point. For I hold that there is a
good deal in what Homer ^ says
When two go together, one observes before the other
for somehow it makes all of us human beings more

resourceful in every deed or word or thought ; but
if one observes something alone, forthwith one has to
go about searching until one discovers somebody to
whom one can show it off and who can corroborate it.
And I also have my reason for being glad to debate
with you rather than with anyone else ; it is that
I regard you as the best person to investigate in
general any matters that a sensible man may be
expected to examine, and virtue in particular.
Whom else should I choose but you ? Not only
do you consider yourself a worthy gentleman, like
sundry other people, who are sensible enough
themselves, but cannot make others so but you;
are both good yourself and have the gift of making

others good. And you are so confident of yourself
that, while others make a secret of this art, you
have had yourself publicly proclaimed to all the
Greeks with the title of sophist, and have appointed
yourself preceptor of culture and virtue, and are
the first who has ever demanded a regular fee for
such work. What then could I do but call upon
you to deal with our problem both by question
and communication ? I had no other course. So
now with regard to those points which I have raised
215
PLATO
Trepl Tovrcov, TrdXiv €7ndvfj,co e^ ^PXV^ '''^ /"•^^
B dvafivrjadrjvai rrapd aov, rd Se cruvSiaaKeipaadaL.
-qv 84, ws iycpfiat, to ipiorrjixa rdSe* ao(f)La /cat
aco(f)po(Tvvr) /cat dvSpeia Kal SuKaioavvrj /cat oaioTrjg
TTorepov ravra, irevTe ovra ovofiaTa, iirl ivl irpdy-
jjLari ioTLV, eKdarcp rwv ovofidTcov rovrcov
^
UTTG/cetTat Tt? t'Stoj ovaia /cat Trpdyfia €)(ov iavrov
hvvafxiv eKaarov, ovk ov olou to €T€pov avTOJV to
€T€pov; €<f)rjada ovv av ovk ovofxaTa cttI evl etvai,
C aAAa cKaoTov tSto) rrpdyp.aTL tcov ovofiaTcov tovtcov
eTTiKeladai, irdvTa 8e raura fiopia etvai dperrjs,
ovx ios rd Tov -/^pvaov fxopia djxoid iaTiv dXX-qXois
^ Kal TO) oXto ov fxopia ioTiv, oAA' eels' to, tov rrpo-
awTTov fxopia /cat to) oAo) ov jxopid icrnv /cat oAAt^-
XoLs dvofioia, tStai/ e/cacrra Svvap,iv eôvra. raura
€1 fM€v aoL So/cet €Tt cooTTep t6t€, <f)d6i' el Se oAAoj?
77COS, TOVTO Stdpicrat, ajj eycoye ovSev aoi VTToXoyov
TidefjuaL, idv ttj] dXXr) vvv (f>TârjS' ov yap dv davfid-
D ôLfJii, et t6t€ dTTOTTeipaypievos jxov raura eXeyes.
'AAA' eyu) aoi, €(f>rj, Xiyoi, & TicoKpaTes, ort

raCra TrdvTa pôpia fiev icrnv dpcTrjs, /cat Ta fiev
TCTTapa avTcov eTneiKCJS TTapaTrXrjaia oAAiÂot?
ioTiv, Se dvhpeia iravv ttoXv hiaîpov TrdvTOiv
17
TOVTCOV. cSSe Se yvcoaei ort eyoj dXr]9i] Xeyoj'

€Vpi]G€lS ydp TToXXovg tcov dvdpCOTTOJV d8LKa>TdTOVS
fjLev ovTas Kal dvoGLcoTaTovs Kal dKoXaaTOTaTovs
Kal dixadeoTaTov^, dvhpeioTdTovs Se Staê/DovTaj?.

E "^x^ ^V> '^4'W ^y^' d^Lov ydp rot eTrtcr/ceâcrât
o Ae'yet?. TTOTepov tovs dvSpeLOvg dappaXeovs
Ae'yet? rj dXXo rt; Kat ira? ye, ecftr], e<f> d ol ttoXXol
»
Cf. 329 c foU.
216
PROTAGORAS
on the subject in my opening questions, I desire
to be reminded of some by you and to have your
help in investigating others. The question, I
believe, was this : ^ Are the five names of wisdom
,
temperance, courage. Justice, and holiness attached

to one thing, or underlying each ot tliese names /y ê
is tftere a distinct existence or thing that has its
own particular function, each thing being different
from lh6 others f And your answer was that tKe y
are not nam es iittached to one thing, but that each
ot these names applies to a distinct thing, and tha t
all these are parts ol \irtue not like the p îfts of
;
gold, which are similar to each other and to the

whole (it which they are parts, but like the parts of
t ne tace- rlis'îmil ar to the ^vhr>1p »f ^^-hinh th^y orf»
p arts and to each other, and ear ]] ftn\nr\g a rlistinrt

function. If you still hold the same opinion of them,
say so ; if you have a new one, define what it is,
for I make no objection to your replying now on
other lines. Indeed I should not be surprised if you
were merely experimenting upon me when you
spoke before.
Well, Socrates, he replied, I say that all these
are parts of virtue, and that while four of them are
fairly on a par with each other, courage is something
vastly different from all the rest. You may perceive
the truth of what I say from this you will find many
:
people extremely unjust, unholy, dissolute, and

ignorant, and yet pre-eminently courageous.
Stop now, I said we must duly examine what
:
you say. Do you call courageous men bold, or

something else ?
Yes, and impetuous also, he rephed, where most
men fear to tread.
217
;
PLATO
(jiopovvrai, levai. Oe'pe 8ij, ttjv aperrjv KaXov ri
(f>7]£
elvai, Kal ws KaXov ovtos avTov crv hihaaKoKov
aavTov rrapex^Ls; KaAAtaroi' fiev oSv, €(f)r], et
fiT] fxalvofial ye. Uorepov ovv, rjv S' eyco, to puiv
Ti avrov alaxpov, ro 8e rt KaXov, iq oXov koXov;

OXov 7TOV KaXov CVS olov re pidXiaTa. Otada ovv
350 TLV€S els TO. (f>p€ara KoXvfi^coai dappaXeojs
Eycoye, ori ol KoXvpL^-qraL. Yiorepov Stort em-
aravrai •>) 8t' aAAo ti; "On emcrTavTat. Tives 8e
ttTTO rCbv iTTTTCJV TToXepbelv dappaXeoi elai; TTorepov
ol LTTTTLKol iq Ol acfuTTTTOL ; Ot ItTTTLKOL. Tlv€S Se

TTcXras exovres; ol TreXraariKol rj ol pufj; Ot
TTeXraariKoL /cat ra aAAa ye iravra, et rovro
^qrels, ^(f>f]} ol eTnar-q (Moves tcov p,rj eTTLarafjievcov
OappaXecorepol elai, /cat auTot eafTcDi', e77etSaj^
B fJiddcoaLV, T] TTplv fjLaOelv. "HSrj 8e Tiva? ecopa/caj,
€(f)'r]v, Trdvrojv rovrcov dvemarripiovas ovras, dap-

povvras 8e irpos eKacrra rovrcov; "Etycoye, ^ 8' os,
Koi Xiav ye dappovvras. Ovkovv ol dappaXeoi
ovroi /cat dvhpeZoL elaiv ; Alcrxpov puivr dv, e(f>7],
€17) r] dvhpeia' errel oSroi ye fiaivofievot elaiv. IT a)?
ovv, e<^7]V eyco, Xeyeis rovs dvhpeiovs; ovx} rovs
C dappaXeovs elvai; Kat vvv y , e(f>r]. Ovkovv
218
—
PROTAGORAS
Well now, do you say that virtue is a good thing,
and of this good thing offer yourself as teacher ?
Nay, it is the best of things, he said, unless I am
out of my senses.
Then one part of it base and another good,
is
or the whole good ?
is
Surely the whole is good in the highest possible

degree.
Now do you know who dive boldly into wells ?
I do ; divers.
Is this because they have knowledge, or for some
other reason ?
Because they have knowledge.

And who are bold in going to war on horseback
those who are practised horsemen, or those who are
not?
Practised horsemen.
—
And who with bucklers buckler-men, or those
who are not ?
Buckler-men : and so with all other cases, he went

on, if that is your point ; those who have knowledge
are bolder than those who lack it, and individually
they are bolder when they have learnt than before
learning.
But you must have seen at times, I said, persons
who are without knowledge of any of these affairs,
yet behaving boldly in each of them.
I have, he said, and very boldly too.
Then are these bold ones courageous also ?
Nay, that would make courage a base thing, he
replied for those you speak of are out of their senses.
;
What then, I asked, do you mean by courageous

men ? Surely the same as bold men ?
Yes, I do still, he said.
219
PLATO
ovToi, "^v S i'y<o, ol ovTCt) dappaXioi ovreg ovk
avhpeloL aAAa fiaivofxevoi (f)aLvovrai; koI e/cet av

ol ao<j)(x)raroL ovroi /cat dappaXeuiraroi elai, dappa-
AeceJTaTOt 8e ovres dvSpeLorarot ; Kal Kara rovrov
TOP Xoyov 7) ao(f)La av avhpeia e'lrj; Ov KaXibg, €(f)T],
fMvrjfioveveis, t5 YiUiKpares , a eAeyov re Kal dneKpi-

vofxrjv aoL. eytoye ipajrrjdels vno aov, el ol avSpetot
OappaXeoi elaiv, ojfioXoyrjcra' el 8e /cat ol dappaXeoi
dvhpeZoi, OVK rjpcDT-qdrjv rore rjpov,
el yap fie
D eiTTovdv on ov iravTes' tovs Se dvhpeiovs cos ov

OappaXeoL etcrt, to e/xov ofMoXoyqfjLa ouSafiov
eirdSeiâs ws ovk opdcos cofjLoXoyrjaa. eneiTa rovs
eTTiarajxevovs avrovs eavrojv OappaXecorepov?
ovras (XTTOâtVet? /cat ^17 eTTiarafievcov dXXojv, Kal
ev rovTcp oiet rr]v avSpeiav Kal rrjv ao(f>iav ravrov
etvai' rovrcp Se ro) rpoirq) jxerLoyv Kal rrjV la^vv
olrideirjs av elvai (jO(f>Lav. Trpcbrov p,ev yap el ovto)
jierid)v epoLo pue ei ot taxvpoi Swaroi elai, cfyairjv av
E eVetra, et ot eTTLorapêvoL TraXaieiv Swarcorepoi elai
ra)V piT] eTTiarapievcov TraXaieLV Kal avrol avTciJv,
evretSav piddcoaLV, t) Trplv pâdelv, <l)airiv av ravra
8e ipbov opLoXoy-qaavTos eêir] dv oot, ;^/3a)/xeva) rot?
auTot? TeKp,7]pLots rovTois, Xeyeiv cos Kara ttjv epurjv
opLoXoyiav rj ao(j)ia earlv laxvs- eyd) Se ovSapbov
ouS' evravda 6p.oXoya) Tovg Svvarovs la^vpovs
elvai, TOVS pievTOi lax^povs SvvaTovs' ov yap
351 ravTov elvai Swa/utV re /cat la^vv, dXXd to pLev
Kal dno eTnaTTjpbrjs ylyveadaL, ttjv hvvapnv, Kal
0,776 pLovias ye Kal Ovp-ov, la^vv Se drro (f)va€cos
Kal evTpo<f)Las tcov acopLaTcov. ovtco Se /cd/cei ov
220
PROTAGORAS
Then these men, I went on, who are so brave, are
found to be not courageous but mad ? And in those
former cases our wisest men are boldest too, and
being boldest are most courageous ? And on this
reasoning, wisdom will be courage ?
You do not rightly recall, Socrates, what I stated
in replying to you. When you asked me whether
courageous men are bold, I admitted it : I was not
asked whether bold men are courageous. Had you
—
asked me this before, I should have said " Not all."
And as to proving that courageous men are not
bold, you have nowhere pointed out that I was
\vrong in my admission that they are. Next you
show that such persons individually are bolder
when they have knowledge, and bolder than others
who lack it, and therewith you take courage and
veisdom to be the same proceeding in this manner
:
you might even take strength to be wisdom. On

this method you might begin by asking me whether
the strong are powerful, and I should say " Yes " ;
and then, whether those who know how to WTCStle
are more powerful than those who do not know how
to wrestle, and whether individually they are more
powerful when they have learnt than before learning,
and I should say " Yes." And on my admitting
these points it would be open to you to say, by the
same token, that according to my admission wisdom
is strength. But neither there nor elsewhere do I
admit that the powerful are strong, only that the
strong are powerful for I hold that power and
;
strength are not the same, but that one of them.,

power, comes from knowledge, or from madness or
rage, whereas strength comes from constitution and
fit nurture of the body. So, in the other instance,
221
PLATO
ravTov cti'ai ddpaos re /cat dvSpetav u)aT€ avfj,'
paivet, rovg ^xev dvSpeiov? dappaXeovs elvai, fxrj
fievTOt Tovs ye dappaXiovs dvSpetovs Travra?* ddpaos

fx.€V yap KOi diTO rexvrjg yiyverai dv9pa)7Tots Kal
B aTTO dvjxov ye koX dirb fxavtag, oiairep rj Svvafjug,
avopeca 8e dvo (fyvaecos Kal evrpotjiias twv ipv)(a)v
yiyverai.
Ae'yet? Se riva^y e(f)7]Vy c5 ITpcurayd/oa, ra>v
av$pco7Tcov €v t,fjv, TOVS 8e /ca/ccD? ; ''l^<j>r]. *Ap
ovv 8o/cet aoi dvdpojTros dv €v ^yjv, el dvLcofievos re
Kal oSvva)fxevos t,a)r] ; Ovk e^rj. Tt S', et rjSecos
^Lovs TOP îov reXevrrjaeiev , ovk eS dv aoi hoKel

ovTOis ê^tcoKevat ; "E/xoiy', e(f>r]. To fxev dpa
C TjSecos t,fjv dyadov, ro S' aT^ScDs" KaKov ; Et7re/3 rots
KaXoZs y ,
^^V> ^VV rjSofxevos. Tt 817, db Ilpcor-
ayopa; firj Kal av, wairep ol ttoXXoL, rjhea drra
KaXels /ca/ca /cat dyadd; iyd) yap Xeyco,
at'iaioa.
Kad o rjhia eariv, dpa Kara rovro ovk dyadd, fxif]

et ri drr* avrcbv dTTO^rjaerai dXXo; Kal au^t? av
ra aviapd (haavrois ovrcos ov Kad^ oaov ai'tapa,
KaKd; Ovk olSa, c5 HcoKpares, €(f)r], dTrAa*? ovrcDs,
J) d)S (TV epcoras, el ifjuol diroKpLreov eariv, (vs ra rjSea
re dyadd eariv dnavra Kal ra dviapd KaKd' dXXa
fxoi 80/cet ov fiovov TTpos rrjv vvv dTTOKpiaiv ejtxot
da(f)aXearepov elvai dTTOKpivaadai, dXXa /cat rrpos

Trdvra rov dXXov îov rov ifiov, on eari fiev a rcov
rjS€a>v OVK eariv dyadd, eari 8' ai5 /cat a tcDv
222
—
PROTAGORAS
boldness and courage are not the same, and therefore
it results that the courageous are bold, but not that
the bold are courageous ; for boldness comes to a

man from art, or from rage or madness, like power,
whereas courage comes from constitution and fit
nurture of the soul.
Do you speak of some men, Protagoras, I asked, as
living well, and others ill ?
Yes.
Then do you consider that a man would live well
ifhe lived in distress and anguish ?
No, he said.
Well now, if he lived pleasantly and so ended his
Hfe, would you not consider he had thus contrived
to live well ?
would, he said.
I
And, I suppose, to live pleasantly is good, and
unpleasantly, bad ?
Yes, he said, if one Uved in the enjoyment of
honourable things.
But, Protagoras, will you tell me you agree with
the majority in calling some pleasant things bad
and some painful ones good ? I mean to say Are —
not things good in so far as they are pleasant, putting
aside any other result they may have ; and again,
are not painful things in just the same sense bad
in so far as they are painful ?
I cannot tell, Socrates, he replied, whether I am to
answer, in such absolute fashion as that of your
question, that all pleasant things are good and
painful things bad :I rather think it safer for me
to reply, with a view not merely to my present
answer but to all the rest of my hfe, that some
pleasant things are not good, and also that some
223
.
PLATO
dviapcov OVK €.ari /ca/ca, eari S' a can, koI rpirov
a ovSerepa, ovre /ca/ca ovt* dyadd. *H8ea 8c
KaXels, "^v S' iyo), ov rd rjSovrjs fierexovra ^
E TTOiovvra 7)8ovi]v; Yldvv y , €(f>rj. Tovto roivvv
Xeyco, Kad" oaov i^Sea i.Griv, el ovk dyadd, rrjv
rjSovfjv avrrjv epojTcijv el ovk dyaOov eariv. "Qcnrep

av XeyeLS, 'i<t>'r], eKaaTore, (L Sco/c/oare?, aKOTTOip,eda
avTo, /cat idv /Ltei^TT/aos" Xoyov Sokt] etvai, to aKefJLjxa
Kal TO avTo <f)aLvrjTai -qSv re /cai dyadov, avyxoipf]-
ao/jLeda' el 8e /xij, t6t€ rjSrj dfjL(f)La^r]T'qaojj,ev
YloTepov ovv, rjv 8' iya>, av ôvXei rjyepLoveveiv rfjs

OKeipecDS, •»} iyoj rjycbfiai, ; At/caio?, ^<l>'^>
o''^
Tjyeladai,' av yap /cat KaTdpyei^ tov Xoyov. *Ap'

352 ovv, "^v 8* eyco, TfjSe Ttj) KaTa<f)aves dv rjfiZv yevono;
wairep et rt? dvdpcoTTov aKoircbv e/c tov ethovs rj
TTpos vyieiav •^ Trpos dXXo rt twv tov acofiaTos

epyoiv, lSd)V TO irpoawTTOV /cat Ta? ^J^Zpas aKpas
eiTTOL- Wl Sri pLOi, dnoKaXvipas Kal ra aTrjOr) /cat to
aaêoTepov
[jLeTd<f)pevov eTriheiôv, Iva eTTLaKei/jcofiai
/cat iyd} ToiovTov tl ttoOco Trpos ttjv aKCipw deaad-
pLevos OTt ovTco? ex^'^ Trpog to dyadov /cat to rjSv,

ojs <^?7?j 8eo/xat tolovtov tl elTreZv Wl hrj fxoL, co
Tlpa)Tay6pa, /cat roSe Ti]s 8tavota? diroKoXvifiov
B Tra)? ^X^''^ 77/30? e7TLaTT^p,r]v ; iroTepov /cat tovto aoL
hoKeZ oia-nep toZs ttoXXoZs dvdpcoTTOLs, t] dXXcos;
BoKct 8e TOZS TToAAotS' TTepi €7TiaT-qp,r]£ TOLOVTOV TL,
OVK laxvpov oi58' rjyepovtKov oyS' dp^LKOv etvat-
224
PROTAGORAS
painful things are not bad, and some are, while a
—
third class of them are indifferent neither bad nor
good.
You call pleasant, do you not, I asked, things that
partake of pleasure or cause pleasure ?
Certainly, he said.
So when I put it to you, whether things are not
good in so far as they are pleasant, I am asking
whether pleasure itself is not a good thing.
Let us examine the matter, Socrates, he said,
in the form in which you put it at each point, and if
the proposition seems to be reasonable, and pleasant
and good are found to be the same, we shall agree
upon it if not, we shall dispute it there and then.
;
And would you like, I asked, to be leader in the

inquiry, or am
I to lead ?
You ought to lead, he replied, since you are the
inaugurator of this discussion.
Well then, I proceeded, will the following example
give us the light we need ? Just as, in estimating a
man's health or bodily efficiency by his appearance,
one might look at his face and the lower part of his
arms and say : Come now, uncover your chest too
and your back and show them, that I may examine
—
you thoroughly so the same sort of desire comes
over me in regard to our inquiry. Observing your
condition to be as you describe in respect of the
good and the pleasant, I am fain to say something
like this :Come, my good Protagoras, uncover
some more of your thoughts how are you in regard
:
to knowledge ? Do you share the view that most

people take of this, or have you some other ? The
opinion generally held of knowledge is something
—
of this sort that it is no strong or gmding or govem-
225
.
PLATO
ovoe cos Trepl tolovtov avrov ovros hiavoovvrai, dAA'
evovcrqs 77oAAa/<"t? dvOpdoTTO) eTTtaTijfMTjs ov rrjv cttl-
aTT]jji,r)v avTov dpx^t-v, aAA' aAAo n. Tore jxkv dvpiov,
rork 8e r^hovrjv, rore he XvTTrjv, eviore he epcora,
TroAAa/ct? he (l)6ôv, dTe)(ya)s hiavoovixevoi Trepl rrjs
C eTTLaTTqpLTjs , ojaiTep Trepl dvhpaTroSov, TrepLeXKOfMevrjs
VTTO Tcov dXXtov aTTavTcov. dp' ovv Kal aol toiovtov
Tt nepl avrrjs hoKeZ, r^ koXov re elvai rj eTnGrrjix-q koL
OLOv dpxeiv rov dvdpcoTTOv, Kal eavrrep ytyvioaKj)
ris rdyadd Kal rd KaKa, fxr) dv Kparrjdrjvai vtto
drra rrpdrreiv
p,r]hev6s, ojcrre d'AA' r] dv -^ e7narrjp.rj
KeXevT], oAA' iKavrjv elvai rrjv (^povrjcrLV ôr^delv rw
dvdpojTTcp; Kat hoKeZ, e(f)r], axnrep cri) Xeyecs, (3
D HtcoKpareSy Kal d/xa, elrrep ra> dXXw, alaxpdv eari
Kat,e/jLOL ao(f)Lav Kal eTnari]p,rjv firj ov^l Travrcov
Kpdriarov (fidvai elvai rcov dvdpojTreia)v Trpayjxdrcov.

KaAcD? ye, e(j)r]v iyco, av Xeycov Kal dXrjdrj. olada
ovv on oc TToXXoL rojv dvdpdiTTcov ep.oi re Kal aol ov
TTeidovrat, dXXd ttoXXovs cf)aai yiyvcdaKovras rd
êXriara ovk ideXeiv rrpdrreiv, e^dv avrois, dAAd
dAAa TTparreiv Kal daovs hrj eyd) rjpo/jLrjv 6 ri
TTore a'lriov eari rovrov, vtto rjhovijg âcnv Tjrroj-
E fxevovs ^ XvTT-qg -^ cov vvv hrj eyd) eXeyov vtto rivos
rovrcov Kparovfievovs ravra TToieiv rovs TTOiovvras
IloAAd ydp oipiai, e(^y}, co HcoKpares, Kal dXXa ovk
opdojs Xeyovaiv oi dvdptoTTOi. "Wi hrj fier^ ifxov
eTTixîprjaov Treideiv rovs dvdpojTTOVS Kal hihdoKeiv
d ear IV avrois rovro rd TTddos, d <j)aaiv vtto ra>v
353 'f]hovd}v rirrdadai Kal ov Trpdrreiv Sid ravra rd
226
PROTAGORAS
ing thing; it is not regarded as anything of that
kind, but people think that, while a m an often

has knowledge in him, he is not gover ned J^X -it»--j^^
'bnt~l5y~ somethmg else— now by passion, now b y /K^
pleasure, now by pain, at times by love, and often
trrfear ; their feelmg aPout knowledge is just wh at
they h£rv:e-ab6ut a siave, that it may be dragge d
abuul by any <J fff^rôrc'e. JNow do you agree with
this vierr of it, or do you consider that knowledge
is something noble and able to govern man, and
that whoever learns what is good and what is bad
mil never be swayed by anything to act otherwise
than as knowledge bids, and that intelligence is a
sufficient succouf for mankind ?
My view, Socrates, he replied, is precisely that
which you express, and what is more, it would be a
disgrace for me above all men to assert that wisdom
and knowledge were aught but the highest of all
human things.
Well and truly spoken, I said. Now you know
that most people vnW not listen to you and me,
but say that many, while knowing what is best, refuse
to perform it, though they have the power, and do
other things instead. And whenever I have asked
them to tell me what can be the reason of this, they
say that those who act so are acting under the
influence of pleasure or pain, or under the control
of one of the things I have just mentioned.
Yes, Socrates, he replied, I regard this as but
one of the many erroneous sayings of mankind.
Come then, and join me in the endeavour to
persuade the world and explain what is this
experience of theirs, which they call " being over-
come by pleasure," and which they give as the
227
PLATO
jSeArtara, CTret yiyviiyoKeiv ye avrd. tacos yap av
XeyovTcov 'Qficbv on ovk opdcos Xeyere, a) dudpajTroi,
dXXa i/jevSeaOe, epoivr av rjfids' cL Ylpcorayopa re

KOL TicoK pares, el p,rj eari rovro ro 7Tddrjp,a rjSo-
vrjs TjrrdaOai, dAAo, ri ttot' eari, /cat re vjxels avro
<f)are elvai; etnarov rjfjLLV. Tt Se, c5 HioKpares,
Set Tj/u.as' OKorteladai rr)v rcjv hoâv
ttoXXcov
B dv6pco7ro)V, ot 6 ri av Ty;â»CTt rovro Xeyovaiv ; Ql-
fiai, r^v 8' ey(x}, elvai ri rjp.iv rovro irpos ro eêvpeZv
TTepl dvSpeias, rrpos raAAa pLopia rd rrjs dperrjs rrcog
TTor ex^'* ^^ ^^^^ ^°^ So/cei epp.eveLV olg dpri
eSoêv rjpZv, ep.e rjyqoaadaL, fj
olpat av eycoye
KaXXiara (jjavepov yeveadai, e-nov el 8e p-q ôvXet,,
el aoi <f>iXov, eco ;ât/)ett'. 'AAA', e<^^, dpdcog
Xeyets' Kal irepaive coanep rjpô).
Q YldXLV roivvv, e(f)rjv eyo), el epoivro rjp.ds' ri ovv

âre rovro elvai, o -^pbeXs TJrra) elvai rojv rjSovojv
eXeyopev ; eiTToip' av eyutye irpos avrovs c68t*
dKovere S-q' TreipaGop.eda yap vplv eym re Kal
Upcorayopas <^pdaai. ctAAo ri ydp, tS dvdpcDTToi,
<f>are vpZv rovro yiyveadai ev roZahe, olov ttoX-
XaKis VTTO aircov /cat TTorcov /cat d(f)poSLaicov Kparov-
pevoi TjSecvv ovrcov, yiyvcoaKovres on 7TOV7]pd iariv
opa)s avrd rrpdrreiv; Oatei' dv. Ovkovv epoLp,ed'
av avrovs eyco re /cat ai) TrdXiv Trovrjpd Se aura
J) TTT] <f>are elvai; norepov on rrfv tjSovtjv ravrrjv ev
rep TTapaxprjpa Trapexî /cat rjSv eariv eKaarov
avrcov, rj on rov varepov )(p6vov voaovs re
eis
TTOiel /cat TTCvias /cat aAAa roiavra TToXXd napa-
228
:
PROTAGORAS
reason why they fail to do what is best though
they have knowledge of it. For perhaps if we said
to them What you assert, good people, is not
:
correct, but quite untrue —

they might ask us
Protagoras and Socrates, if this experience is not
" being overcome by pleasure " what on earth is it,
and what do you call it ? Tell us that.
Why, Socrates, must we consider the opinion of
the mass of mankind, who say just what occurs to
them ?
Lfancy, that this will be a step towa rds

I re plied,
discovering ho w courage is related to the other par ts
of virtue. So if you think fit to abide by the arrange-
—
ment we made a while ago that I should lead in
the direction which seems best for elucidating the
—
matter you must now follow but if you would
;
rather not, to suit your wishes I will let it pass.

No, he said, your plan is quite right go on to the
:
end you began.

as
Once more then, I proceeded, suppose they should
ask us Then what do you call this thing which we
:
described as " being overcome by pleasures " ?

The answer I should give them would be this :
Please attend Protagoras and I will try to explain

;
it to you. Do you not say that this thing occurs,

good people, in the common case of a man being
overpowered by the pleasantness of food or drink
or sexual acts, and doing what he does though he
knows it to be wicked ? They would admit it.
Then you and I would ask them again In what
:
sense do you call such deeds wicked ? Is it that

they produce those pleasures and are themselves
pleasant at the moment, or that later on they cause
diseases and poverty, and have many more such ills
229
PLATO
aKevd^ci; rj Kav et rt tovtcjov ei? to varepov fXTjoev
7Tapa(TK€vd^€i,, \aipeLv Se p,6vov Troiet, opiOig 8' av

KaKo. riv, on [xadovra ;\;aipett' TTOtet /cat otttjovu;
dp^ olofied^ av avTOV?, co Ylpcorayopa, dXXo ti
OLTTOKpivaadat, rj on ov Kara rrju avTrjs rrjg rjSovrjs

E TTJ^ 7Tapaxpy}P'0' ipyamav KaKO. eanv, dAAa hid ra
varepov yiyvopêva, voaov; re /cat raAAa. Kyco
p-kv otp,ai, e(f>-q 6 Upcorayopas, rovg ttoXXov? dv
ravra diroKpivaaQat. Ovkovv voaovg rroLovuTa
dvias TTOiet, /cat irevia^ TToiovvra at'ia? TToiel;
354 opLoXoyolev dv, cos eyoi/xat. Yivve(j)r) 6 ITpajr-
ayopas. Ovkovv (âtVerat, w dvdpcoTTOt, vpXv, cus"
(f)ap,€v iyo) re /cat npcurayopas', St' ovbev aAAo

rayra /ca/ca ovra, •>} Stori et? arta? re dTToreXevra
/cat ctAAoji' i^Soi^cut' aTToarepei; opoXoyolev av;
HvveSoKeL rjpilv dp<f)OLV. Ovkovv TrdXiv dv avrovs
ro evavrlov el epoip,eQa- d) dvdpa)TTOL ol Xeyovres
av dyaOd dviapd elvai, dpa ov rd roiaSe Xeyire,
olov rd re yvp,vdaLa rds arpareias /cat ra?
/cat
VTTO rd)v larpdjv OepaTveias rds Sta Kavaecvv re /cat

rop^djv /cat (f)app,aK€LdJv /cat XipoKroviwv ytyvo-
p,evas, on ravra dy add p,ev eanv, dviapd 8e;
B <j)alev dv; HvvehoKei. Ylorepov ovv Kard roSe
aya^ct aura KoXeZre, on ev ro) Trapaxp^p-o. dhvvas
rds iaxdras irapex^t' kol dXyrihova's, rj on, et? rov

varepov xpovov vyieiai re an avrdjv ycyvovrai /cat
eve^lai rcov ao)p,dra)v /cat rcov TToXeayv acor-qpLai
Kal dXXcDV dpxcd /cat nXovroi; (f>aLev dv, cu? iycppai.
230
PROTAGORAS
in store for us ? Or, even though they have none
of these things in store for a later day, and cause
us only enjoyment, would they still be evil just
because, forsooth, they cause enjoyment in some way
or other ? Can we suppose, Protagoras, that they
will make any other answer than that these things
are evil, not according to the operation of the actual
pleasure of the moment, but owing to the later
results in disease and those other ills ?
I think, said Protagoras, that most people would
answer thus.
Then in causing diseases they cause pains ? And
in causing poverty they cause pains ? They would
admit this, I imagine.
Protagoras agreed.
Then does it seem to you, my friends, as Protagoras
and I assert, that the only reason why these things
are evil is that they end at last in pains, and deprive
us of other pleasures ? Would they admit this ?
We both agreed that they would.
Then again, suppose we should ask them the
opposite : You, sirs, who tell us on the other
—
hand that good things are painful do you not give
such instances as physical training, military service,
and medical treatment conducted by cautery,
incision, drugs, or starvation, and say that these are
good, but painful ? Would they not grant it ?
He agreed that they would.
Then do you call them good because they produce
extreme pangs and anguish for the moment, or
because later on they result in health and good
bodily condition, the deliverance of cities, dominion
over others, and wealth ? They would assent to
this, I suppose.
231
PLATO
HvvcSoKci. Tayra 8e dyaOd iari. Si' aAAo rt, rj
on els TjSovds dTToreXevra Kai Xvttojv aTraXXayds

re Koi diTOTpoTrds ; >} e;\;eTe n dXXo reXog Xeyeiv,
C els o dTTO^XeipavTes avrd dyadd KaXelre, dAA' <7}>f

rjbovds re koI XvTras; ovk dv <âZev, cos eyw/jLai.
Ou8' enol So/cet, e(f)7] 6 Upojrayopas. Ovkovv
rrjv fjLev rjSovrju hiojKere (hs dyadov 6v, rrjv Se
XvTTTjv <j>evyere cos KaKov; HvveSoKei. Tout' dpa

"qyelad^ elvat KaKov, rrjV Xv7T7]v, koI dyadov rrjv
-^Sov-qv,67761 Kol avro ro ;(atpeiv rore Xeyere

KaKov elvai, orav fxeiôvcov rjSovcov dTToarepfj rj
oaas avro exî, rj Ayvra? ^leitôvs TrapacrKevd^rj rcov
D ev avrco rjSovcov' eTrel el Kar dXXo ri avro ro
XaipeLV KaKov KoXelre Koi els aAAo n reXos arro-
^Xeifjavres, exoire dv /cat Ty/ztv elTreiv aAA' ovx
eêre. OuS' epiol SoKovatv, e^n] 6 Ylpcorayopas-
"AAAo Tt ovv ttoXlv /cat irepl avrov rov XvTretadai 6
avros rpoTTos; rore KaXeZre avro ro XvireZcrdaL
dyadov, orav -^ fxelôvs XvTras rcov ev avrco ovachv
dTTaXXdrrj) iq p.eit,ovs rjhovds rotv Xvttojv napa-
aKevdt,rj; eirel el Trpos aAAo ri reXos drro^XeTrere,
E orav KaXrjre avro ro XvTreZadai dyadov, rf npos o
iych Xeyco, eêre tjijlZv elTreZv oAA' ovx î^'^^-
ÂXT]6rj, 6017, Ae'yet?, o Ilpcorayopas. HdXiv
roLVVV, e(j)T)v eyci), el fie dvepotaOe, aj dvOpcoTTOi,
rivos OVV hrjTTore ere/ca ttoAAo. Trept rovrov Ae'yet?

/cat TToXXaxfi; avyyiyvcLaKere /ioi, <f>aLr]v dv eycoye.
* rj add. Stephanus.
232
PROTAGORAS
He agreed.
And are these things good for any other reason
than that they end at last in pleasures and relief
and riddance of pains ? Or have you some other
end to mention, with respect to which you call them
good, apart from pleasures and pains ? They could
not find one, I fancy.
I too think they could not, said Protagoras.
Then do you pursue pleasure as being a good
thing, and shun pain as being a bad one ?
He agreed that we do.
So one thing you hold to be bad pain — ; and
pleasure you hold to be good, since the very act of
.
enjoying you call bad as soon as it deprives us of

greater pleasures than it has in itself, or leads to
greater pains than the pleasxu-es it contains. For
if it is with reference to something else that you
call the act of enjoyment bad, and with a view to
some other end, you might be able to tell it us ;
but this you will be unable to do.

I too think that they cannot, said Protagoras.
Then is not the same thing repeated in regard to
the state of being pained ? You call being pained
a good thing as soon as it either rids us of greater
pains than those it comprises, or leads to greater
pleasures than its pains. Now if you have in view
some other end than those which I mention when
you call being pained good, you can tell it us ; but
you never can.
Truly spoken, said Protagoras.
Once more then, I proceeded ; if you were to
ask me, my friends, Now why on earth do you
speak at such length on this point, and in so many
ways ? I should reply, Forgive me in the first
:
233
.
PLATO
TTpcorov fxev yap ov paSiov avoSeLâi, rt ioTL rrore
TovTo, o v/xeis KaXetre rcov rjBovcov rJTTOj elvar
€7T€iTa €v Tovro) clal TTaaai at aTroSetfets". oAA'
€Tt Ktti vvv dvadeadai eêariv, el ttj] e^^re aXXo tl
355 (f)dvaL etvai ro dyadov -q rrjv rjSov^v, 7) to KaKov
ctAAo Tl 7)rrjv dviav, r^ dpKel Vfxiv ro rjSeojg Kara-
^LoJvaL Tov îov dv€v XvTTibv; el 8e dpKeZ kol
/jLrj ex€T€ jJLTjSev dXXo <f)dvaL etvat dyadov rj KaKov,
o ^7) €LS ravra reXevTa, ro /xerd rovro dKovere.
(f)r}fxl yap vplv rovrov ovrcog eôvro^ yeXolov rov
Xoyov yiyveadaL, orav Xlyiqre, on TroAAa/cts" yiyviL-

CKOjv rd KaKa dvdpcoTTOS, on Ka/ca ianv, ofia)?
TTparrec avrd, iôv jxrj rrpdrreiv, vtto rcjbv -qhovcov
B ayop.evo's Kal iKTrXrjrrofievos Kal avdis av Xeyere,
.
on, yiyvcxjGKCov 6 dvOpconos rdyadd rrpdrreiv ovk

edeXei Sia rds 7Tapa)(^prjiJ,a rjSovds, vtto rovrcov
'qmLpievos
Q.S Se ravra yeXold ean, KardSrjXov eqrai, eav
jjiT] ovojJLaai ;^p6u/ieâ a/ta, T^Set re /cai
TToXXolg
aviapco Kal dyaOo) Kal KaKw, dAA' eTretSr) 8vo
€(f)dv7j ravra, Svotv Kal ovofiaat, Trpoaayopevcvfi^v
avrd, TTpdirov fiev dyadw Kal KaKO), eTreira avdis
ijSet T€ Kal dviapo). defievoi 8r) ovrco Xeycofiev,
C on yiyvcjoKOiv 6 dvdpanros rd KaKa on /ca/ca
eanv, o/xaj? avrd TroieZ. eav ovv n^ rj/JLas ep-qrai,
hid ri, rjrrcL)p,evos , ^rjaopêv vird rov; eKelvos
eprjaerai ripbds' rjp.tv 8e vtto p-ev rjSovrjs ovKen
eêanv etTTetv dXXo ydp 6vop,a p,ereLXr)(f)ev dvn
rrjs 'qSovrjg ro dyaOov eKeivcp Srj dTTOKptvcopêda Kai
Xeywpev, on 7)rra)p,evos. vtto rlvos; (fyiqaeL' rov
dyadov, ^rjaop,ev vrj At'a. av ovv rvxij d ep6p.evos
•^fxas v^pt(jrr]s oiV, yeXdaerai /cat epeZ' ri yeXoZov
234
;:
PROTAGORAS
place, not easy to conclude what it is that you
it is
mean when you say " overcome by pleasures "
and secondly, on this point hang all our conclusions
But it is still quite possible to retract, if you can
somehow contrive to say that the good is different
from pleasure, or the bad from pain. Is it enough
for you to live out your life pleasantly, without
pain ? If it is, and you are unable to tell us of any
other good or e\il that does not end in pleasure or
pain, listen to what I have to say next. I tell you
that if this is so, the argument becomes absurd,
when you say that it is often the case that a man ,
kn owing tne e\'11 to be evil, nevertheless comm its
it, when he might avoid it, because he is driven
and dazed by nis pleasures ; while on the othe r

^d
h you say that a man, knowing the good, refuses
t o~do good because of the momentary pleasures Ey
which he is overcome.
Ihe absurdity of all this will be manifest if we
refrain from using a number of terms at once, such
as pleasant, painful, good, and bad and as there
;
appeared to be two things, let us call them by

—
two names first, good and evil, and then later on,
pleasant and painful. Let us then lay it down as
our statement, that a man does evil in spite of
knowing the evil of it. Now if someone asks us
Why ? we shall answer Because he is overcome.
:
By what ? the questioner will ask us ; and this time

—
we shall be unable to reply By pleasure for this
:
has exchanged its name for " the good." So we

must answer only with the words Because he is
:
overcome. By what ? says the questioner. The

—
good must surely be our reply. Now if our ques-
tioner chance to be an arrogant person he will laugh
235
PLATO
D Xeyerc Trpdyfia, el TTpdrrei rig KaKO,, yLyvaxjKCov
on, KaKa eariv, ov 8eov avrov mpdrreiv, ^rrcofxevos
VTTO Tcov dyadcbv. dpa, ^rjaei, ovk dîoiv ovTiov
viKov iv vp,lv rcbv dyadojv rd KaKa, rj dîcov;
(f)rj(70iJiev SrjXov on dTTOKpivoficvoL, on ovk dîcov
ovroiv. yap dv e^r^pLdpravev ov (f)ap,€v tJtto)
oû
elvat TCOV rjSovcov. Kara n Se, (ftiqaei tacos,

dvd^td icrn rdyadd twv KaKcov -^ rd KaKa tojv
dyadojv; ^ /car' aAAo n t] orav rd /xev fjLetl^co, rd
8e apLLKporepa rj; rj TrXeio), rd Se iXdrroj fj; ov)(
E eôfiev eiTTelv aAAo •^ rovro. Si]Xov dpa, <f>'qaeL, on.
rd Tjrrdadat rovro Xeyere, dvrl iXarrovwv dyaddjv
jxeLô) KaKd Xafi^dveiv. ravra jxev ovv ovrco.
fjLcraXd^cofxev Srj rd ovopuara TrdXtv rd rjSv re koI
dvLapov inl rots avrols rovrois, Kal Xeyaj/xev on
dvdpcoTTos TTpdrr^L, rare fxev iXeyojxev rd KaKa,
vvv Se Aeyco/xev rd dviapd, yiyvayaKOiv on aviapa
icrriv, rjrrcvfievos vrrd rwv rjheuyv, SrjXov on
356 dvaîiov ovrcov vlkov. Kal rls dXXrj dvaîa TjSovfj
npds XvTTTjv eariv, aAA' 7) VTrepôXrj aXXt^Xcov /cat
eXXeLipis; ravra S' earl p,eit,a> re /cat a/xiKpo-
repa yiyvopieva oAAtÂoji' /cat TrXeio) Kal eXdrrco
Kal pidXXov Kal rjrrov. ei yap rt? Xdyot on aXXa
TToXv (Z YiixiKpares , rd TTapaxprjp-Oi tjSv
Sia(f)€p€i,,
rov elsrdv varepov xpovov Kal rjSeog Kal XvTrrjpov,

/xcDv aAAo) ru), <f>air]v dv eycoye, t] rjSovfj Kal Xvtttj;
B ov ydp eaO^ drco dXXco. dAA woTrep ay ados
lardvai dvdpcoTTOs, ovvdels rd rjSea Kal crvvdeLS
rd XvTT'qpd, Kal rd iyyvs Kal rd rroppco arrjoras ev
236
;
PROTAGORAS
and exclaim : What a ridiculous statement, that a
man does knowing it to be evil, and not having
evil,
to do it, because he is overcome by the good Is
!
this, he will ask, because the good is not worthy

of conquering the evil in you, or because it is worthy ?
Cleariy we must reply Because it is not worthy
:
otherwise he whom we speak of as overcome by

pleasures would not have offended. But in what
sense, he might ask us, is the good unworthy of the
bad, or the bad of the good ? This can only be when
the one is greater and the other smaller, or when
there are more on the one side and fewer on the
other. We shall not find any other reason to give.
"
So it is clear, he will say, that-by " being overcome
you mean getting the greater evil in exchange for
the lesser good. That must be agreed. Then let
"
us apply the terms " pleasant " and " painful
to these things instead, and say that a man does
what we previously called evil, but now call painful,
knowing it to be painful, because he is overcome
by the pleasant, which is obviously unworthy to
conquer. What unworthiness can there be in
pleasure as against pain, save an excess or defect
of one compared with the other ? That is, when
one becomes greater and the other smaller, or when
there are more on one side and fewer on the other,
or here a greater degree and there a less. For if
you should say But, Socrates, the immediately
:
pleasant differs widely from the subsequently

pleasant or painful, I should reply Do they differ
:
in anything but pleasure and pain ? That is the

only distinction. Like a practised weigher, put
pleasant things and painful in the scales, and with
them the nearness and the remoteness, and tell me
VOL. IV I 237
PLATO
Tip ^vytv, €L7T€ TTOTcpa TrXelo) iariv. eav fiev yap
'qSea Trpos rjSea larfj?, to. fxel^co del /cat TrAeto)
Ar]7TT€a' iav 8e XvTrrjpa. Trpog XvTrrjpd, rd iXdrrco
Kal afiiKporepa' idv 8e T^Se'a Trpos Xv7rr]pd, edv
fievra dviapd VTTep^dXXrjraL vtto rcov rjSecov, idv
re ra eyyvs vtto tcov Troppco edv re rd voppu} vtto
ToJv eyyvs, ravrrjv rrjv Trpdîv TvpaKreov ev fj
dv
C ravr evfj- edv 8e rd r)hea vtto rGiv dviapdJv, ov
TTpaKrea- fi-q ttt] aAA?^ ^X^''> ^ct^''?*' dv, ravra, c5
dvdpcoTTOi; oi8' on, ovk dv €)(OLev dXXa>s Xeyeiv.
YiVvehoKei /cat e/cetVo). "Ore hrj rovro ovrojs
exî, roSe fxoc aTTOKpivaode, (f>rja(x). (jtaiverai
VfxZv rfj oifjei rd avrd fieyedr] eyyvdev fjiev fxei^co,

TToppoidev he eXdrrto' r^ ov; ^rjaovaiv. Kat ra
TTaxea /cat rd TToXXd (haavruis ; /cat at (f)coval
<al>^ icrai eyyvdev fxev fxelôvs, TToppcodev he

J) a^xiKporepai; Oaiev dv. Et ovv ev rovrcp -qpilv
rjv rd ev TTpdrreiv, ev ro) rd fiev fieydXa fxrjKrj
/cat TTpdrreiv /cat Xafx^dveiv, rd 8e afiiKpd Kat

<f)evyeLv /cat fjirj TTpdrreiv, ris dv f]puv aojrrjpia
e(f)dvri rod fiiov ; dpa rj nerprjriKT) rexyrj t) t] rov
<j)aivofxevov hvvapus; rj avrrj fjiev rjfids eTTXava

Kal eTToiei dvcj re Kal Kara) TToXXaKis pieraXajj,-
^dveiv ravrd Kal fierafxeXeiv Kal ev raig TTpdêai
Kal ev rais alpeaeai rdv fxeydXcov re Kal crfiiKpcov,
rj 8e p,erp'qriKr) aKvpov fiev dv evoirjae rovro ro
E (fidvraapia, SrjXdxjaaa Be rd dXrjdes rjavxioLV dv
eTToirjoev eêiv rrjv iJjvx'tjv p-evovaav evi rep aXiquei
Kal eacoaev dv rdv îov ; dp' dv oyioXoyoiev oi
^ 0,1 add. Heindorf.
2S8
PROTAGORAS
which count for more. For if you weigh pleasant
things against pleasant, the greater and the more are
always to be preferred if painful against painful, then
:
always the fewer and smaller. If you weigh pleasant

against painful, and find that the painful are out-
—
balanced by the pleasant whether the near by the
—
remote or the remote by the near you must take
that course of action to which the pleasant are
attached ; but not that course if the pleasant are
outweighed by the painful. Can the case be other-
wise, I should ask, than thus, my friends ? I am
certain they could state no alternative.
To this he too assented.
Since that is the case, then, I shall say, please
answer me this : Does not the same size appear
larger to your sight when near, and smaller when
distant ? They will admit this. And it is the same
with thickness and number ? And sounds of equal
strength are greater when near, and smaller when
distant ? They would agree to this. Now if our
welfare consisted in doing and choosing things of
large dimensions, and avoiding and not doing those
of small, what would be our salvation in life ? Would
it be the art of measurement, or the power of appear-
ance ? Is it not the latter that leads us astray, as
we saw, and many a time causes us to take things
topsy-tvu-vy and to have to change our minds both
in our conduct and in our choice of great or small ?
Whereas the art of measurement would have made
this appearance ineffective, and by showing us the
truth would have brought our soul into the repose
of abiding by the truth, and so would have saved our
life. Would men acknowledge, in view of all this.
239
.
PLATO
dvdpcoTTOL rrpos ravra -qfjbds T-qv fieTpr^TiKr^v aco^civ
av rexvTjv, ^ dW'qv; Tr)v fjLeTprjTLK-qv, wfxoXoyei.
Ti 8 , el €V rrj rov TTepirrov /cat dpriov alpiaei
rjixiv rjv rj acorrjpia rov îov, onore to ttXcov
opocos eoet eAeaUai Kai ovore to eAaTTov, rj avro
TTpos iavTo rj ro erepov rrpos ro erepov, clt* iyyvs
357 €LT€ TTOppCO €L7], Tl dv €aCo!^€V rjflLV TOV ^LOV ; dp
dv OVK iTTiGT-^fir] ; koI dp* dv ov fierp-qTiKT] tis,
iTTeiSrjTTcp vnepôXrjs re /cai ivSeias iarlv rj rixvr];
iTTeiSr) Be TrepiTTOV re koL dpriov, dpa dXXrj ti?
^ dpidjJLrjrLK'q ; ofxoXoyoZev dv rjixlv ot dvdpoiTTOL,
^ ov; ^KSoKOVV dv /cat ra> Upcorayopa o/xoXoyelv
Etei/, c5 dvOpcoTTOL- €7rel Se Srj^ rjSovijs re /cat
XvTTTjsev opdfj rfj alpeaei i(f)dvr] rfixlv rj acorr]pLa

rov ^Lov ovaa, rov re TrXeovos /cat iXdrrovog Kai
B apuKporepov koX rroppcorepoi /cat ey-
fieilôvos /cat
yvrepcx), dpa Trpwrov jxev ov nerp-qriKr) âiverat,
VTTepôXrjs re /cat evSelas ovaa /cat IcrorTjros irpos
oAATÂa? OKeijus; 'AAA' dray/crj. 'Ettci 8e nerpr)-
TiKTi, dvayKT) S-qTTOV re)(vr) /cat eTnar-qjxrj. Hv/jl-
^riaovaiv. "HTt? piev roivvv re^vrj Kai emar-^pir]
earlv avrrj, elaavdig aKei/jopieOa' on Se eTnar-qpLT)
earl, roaovrov eâpKei Trpos rrjv aTrdSetftv, 171'
C €fi€ Set /cat Ylpoirayopav (ZTroSetât Trepi, cdv

TJpead* 7jp,ds. rjpeade Se, el fiepLvrjade, Tyvt/ca
rjpLeXs oAATÂotj d)fi,oXoyovfj,ev eTTLcrrrjpLrjs firjSev
^ inel Se S^ Adam em
: Si B^ . . . eVetS^ 8^ MS9.
* The intellectual control of our sense-perceptions, which
differ as to the size or number of the same things when near

and when distant, etc., has an important part in the educa-
240
PROTAGORAS
that the art which saves our life is measurement,
or some other ?
It is measurement, he agreed.
Well now, if the saving of our life depended on
the choice of odd or even, and on knowing when
to make a right choice of the greater and when of
—
the less taking each by itself or comparing it with
the other, and whether near or distant what would —
save our life ? Would it not be knowledge ; a
knowledge of measurement, since the art here is
concerned with excess and defect, and of numeration,
as it has to do with odd and even ? People would
admit this, would they not ?
, Protagoras agreed that they would.
J Well then, my friends, since we have found that
the salvation of our life depends on making a right
—
choice of pleasure and pain of the more and the
fewer, the greater and the smaller, and the nearer
—
and the remoter is it not evident, in the first place,
that measurement is a study of their excess and
defect and equality in relation to each other ?
This must needs be so.
And being measurement, I presume it must be an
art or science ?
They will assent to this.

Well, the nature of this art or science we shall
consider some other time ^ but the mere fact of its
;
being a science will suffice for the proof which

Protagoras and I are required to give in answer to
the question you have put to us. You asked it,
if you remember, when we were agreeing ^ that
there is nothing stronger than knowledge, and
tionalscheme of the Rfpublic. The measuring art is further
considered in the Politicus (283 foil.). » Cf. 352 b foil.
241
PLATO
etvai Kpelrrov, dAAa rovro aet Kparelv, ottov civ
ivfj, Kal Kat rajv aAAajp' aTravroiv u/u,et?

rjSovrjs
8e 817 €(f)aTe rrjv rjSovrjv TToXXaKig Kparelv Kal
rov eiSoTO? dvOpcoTTOV, iTTeidrj Se Vfxlv ovx (OfXoXo-
yovfiev, ixerd rovro rjpecrde rjp,ds' (L Upcorayopa
re Kal HcoKpares, el firj eari rovro ro rrddrjfMa
D TjSovrjs rjrrdadat, dAAa rt ttot* earl Kal ri vfiels
avro (f)are elvai; et-nare rjfjilv. ovv rore
el fxev
evOiis vp.LV eliTopêv on dpâdia,KareyeXdre dv
'qficav vvv 8e dv r^pLcbv KarayeXdre, Kal vpLtov
avrwv KarayeXdaeade. Kal yap u/xet? d)p,o-
Xoyr^Kare eâpaprdveiv rrepl
eTnarrjpurjS evêia
rrjv rtbv rjSovcbv alpeaiv Kal XvndJv rovs eâp,ap-
rdvovras' ravra 8e ecrrtv dyadd re Kal KaKd-
Kai ov p,6vov e7TLcrr'^p,r)s, dXXd Kal ^^ ro irpoadev
en wpôXoyqKare on p,erpr]nKrjs' 17 8e eâp,ap-
E ravopêvT] Trpdîs dvev €7TLar7]p,rjs tare ttov /cat
avroL on ap,adia irparrerai. ayare rovr* eon
ro 'f]hovi)£ rjrrco elvat,, dp.adia rj pieyiarrj' ^s
Upcorayopas oSe (fyrjalv larpos elvat Kal TlpoSiKos
Kal 'iTTTTias' vp,€L? 8e 8id ro oleaOai dXXo n -rj
dp,adiav elvai ovre avrol <ire>^ ovre rovs vp,e-

repovs 7rat8as' irapd rovs rovrcov SiSaaKaXovs
rovaSe rovs cro(f)Lards TrepbTrere, d)S ov StSa/crou
ovros, dXXd KiqhopievoL rov dpyvpLov Kal ov StSw-
358 Te? rovrois KaKcos npdrrere /cat t8ta /cat Srjpioarla.
Tavra pt,ev rois ttoXXols d7TOK€KpLp,€voi dv rjpev
vpbds Se S-q p.erd Yipcorayopov eparrd), <c5>'
—
'lirma re Kal YlpoSiKe KOtvos yap 817 earco vp.iv
—
6 Xoyos TTorepov 80/cd) vpilv dXTjdrj Xeyeiv r\
^ fre add. Madvig. • & add. Ruckert

242
;
PROTAGORAS
that knowledge, wherever it may be found, has
always the upper hand of pleasure or anything else ;
and then you said that pleasure often masters even
the man of knowledge, and on our refusing to agree
with you, you went on to ask us Protagoras and
:
Socrates, if this experience is not " being overcome

b y pleasure." whatever can it be. and w hpt dn ynn
call it ? Tell us. If on the spur of the moment we
had rep lied, " Ignorance," you would have laughed
us to scorn Put now it you laugh at us you will
:
be laughing at yourselves as well. For you have

admitted that it is from defect of knowledge that
men err, when they do err, in their choice of pleasures
—
and pains that is, in the choice of good and evil
and from defect not merely of knowledge but of the
knowledge which you have now admitted also to be
that of measurement. And surely you know well
enough for yourselves that the erring act committed
without knowledge is done through ignorance.
Accordingly " to be overcome by pleasure " means
just this —
ignorance in the highest degree, which
Protagoras here and Prodicus and Hippias profess
to cure. But you, through supjxising it to be some-
thing else than ignorance, will neither go yourselves
nor send your children to these sophists, who are the
taught
—
teachers of those things you say it cannot be
you are chary of your money and will
;
give them none, and so you fare badly both in

private and in public life.
Such would have been our answer to the world at
large. And I ask you now, Hippias and Prodicus,
—
as well as Protagoras for I would have you make a
joint reply —
whether you think what I say is true
or false.
243
PLATO
*jf€vhea6ai. 'Y7T€p(f)Vco<; eSoKn aTracnv dXr]6rj elvai
TO. 'O/noAoyetre dpa, rjv 8' iyio, to
elprjfieva.
fjiev rjSv dyadov elvai, to Se dviapou KaKov. rr)v
8e ripoSiVou TouSe hiaipeaiv rcov ovofxaTOiv nap-
B aiTovfiai,' ctre yap rjSv etre repTTVov Aeyei? etre
XCLpTov, ctre orrodev Kal ottcu? )(a.ip€is rd roiavra
6vop.dt,cov , a> êXriare UpoStKe, rovro p,OL irpos
o ôvXoixai dTTOKpLvai. VeXdoas ovv 6 YlpohiKog
avvojfjioXoYqae , Kal ol dXXot,. Tt Se S'q, c3 dvSpes,
€(f)T]v iyu), TO TOLovSe ; at em rovrov irpdêt,?
diraaai, cttI rov dXvTTCog î]V Kal i^SecDS', dp^ ov
KaXai [/cai <Z»êAt/Ltoi^ ] ; /cat ro koXov epyov
dyadov re Kal (x>(f)iXip,ov ; ^vvehoKCi. Et dpa,
€(f)r]veyo), ro rjSi) dyadov iariv, oySets" oirre eiSco?
C ovre olojJievos dXXa êXricD etvai,, t] a ttolcZ,^ /cat
Suvara,^ eVetTa ttolel ravra, iôv rd êXrioj' ovhk
ro TJrroj elvau avrov dXXo ri rovr iarlv t] dp.adia,
ovhe Kpeirroj iavrov dXXo ri ^ aoîa. lavv-
eSd/cet TTaaiv. Tt 8e 817; dfiadiav dpa ro roiovSe
Xeyere, ro ipevhi) exîv Soâv Kal iipevodai Trepl
rdjv TTpayfjidrcov rd>v ttoAAou dîcov; Kat rovro
Trdai crureSd/cet. "AAAo ri ovv, €<f)rjv iyd), em
ye rd /ca/ca oj}8eis' €Kd)v epxerat ovSe ein a oterat
D /ca/ca eit'at, ovS^ ecrri rovro, co? eoiKev, ev avdpojTTOV
^vaei, eirl d oterat /ca/ca eit'at edeXeiv levai avri
rdJv dyadcov orav re dvayKaadfj Svolv tcaKolv ro
^ Kai ilxpiXifjioi seel. Schleiermacher.

Heindorf eVoiet mss.
2 TToie? :
^ Sward Schleiermacher 5 warai mss. :
^ "Yielding to oneself" and "mastery of oneself" are
here put instead of " being overcome by pleasure " and

244
PROTAGORAS
They all thought what I had said was absolutely
true.
Then you agree, I continued, that the pleasant is
good and the painful bad. And let me entreat
my friend Prodicus to spare me his distinction of
terms : whether you say pleasant or dehghtful
for
or enjoyable, my excellent Prodicus, or in whatever
style or manner you may be pleased to name these
things, pray reply to the sense of my question.
At this Prodicus laughed and consented, as did the
rest.
Well now, my friends, I said, what of this ? All
actions aimed at living painlessly and pleasantly
are honourable, are they not ? And the honourable
work is both good and useful ?
They agreed.
Then if, I proceeded, the pleasantis good, no one
who has knowledge or thought of other actions as
better than those he is doing, and as possible, will
do as he proposes if he is free to do the better ones ;
and this yielding to oneself is nothing but ignorance,
and mastery of oneself is as certainly wisdom.
"^
They all agreed.

Well then, by ignorance do you mean having a
false opinion and being deceived about matters of
importance ?
They all agreed to this also.

Then surely, I went on, no one wilhngly goes
after evil or what he thinks to be evil it is not ;
in human
nature, apparently, to do so to wish to —
go after what one thinks to be evil in preference
to the good ; and when compelled to choose one of
the opposite state. The conflict betwêen the better and

worse self is discussed in R«p. iv. 430 e foil.
VOL. IV I 2 245
PLATO
erepov alpeZadai,, ovhels to iielt,ov aiprjaerai eôp
TO eXarrov. "Anavra ravra crvveSoKei aTraoLV
rjfiLV. Tt oSv; e(f>r]v eyiL, KaXelri <Ti>^ Seos
/cat (f)6ôv; Kai apa onep iyco; npos ak Xeyoj,
Il/ooSt/ce. npoaSoKtav tlvcl Xeyco KaKOV tovto,
elre (fjoôv etre Seo? /caAetre. 'ESoAcei Ilpa^T-
E ayopa fxev /cat 'iTTTTLa Se'o? re /cat ôôs elvat

TOVTO, YlpoBiKO) 8e Seog, cf>6ôs S' ov. 'AAA'
ovSev, e(f}rjv iyco, DpoSt/ce, 8ta(^€/3ef aAAa roSe.
€1 dXr]dfj TO. efiTTpoadev ioTLV, dpd Tig dvdpd)TTCxiv
ec/eAi^CTet raura
e77t terat a oeooiKev, egou em a
/LtTJ; ^ dSwaTOi/ ck tcDj/ a yap
wixoXoyqfievcov ;
8e8oi/cev, chfxoXoyrjTai, -qyeladai /ca/ca ctvat* a 8e
i^yetrat /ca/ca, ou8eva oure levat eTrt raura oure
359 Xajx^dveiv eKovTa. 'E8o/cet /cat raura Trdatv.

Ovra> 8^7 TouTOii' VTroK€Lp,€va)v, rjv 8' eyoS,
IlpoSt/ce re /cat 'iTTTrt'a, diroXoyeiadco r)p.lv YlpojT-
ayopas ohe, d to TrpaJTov aTre/cptVaro, ttcDs" opdojg
exî'y P''f} d TO 7Tpix)TOV iravTaTTaai' t6t€ p.ev yap
8r] TT€VTe ovTcov piopicov TTJg dpeT-qg ovSev ecfyrj
etvai TO €T€pou olov TO €Tepov, ISiav 8e avTov

CKaoTOV exîv SvvafMLV dAA' ov ravra Aeya>, dAA'
a TO vaTepou etrre. to yap vaTepov €<f>r] ret /xeu
TeTTapa eTTtet/ccD? TrapaTrXrjcna dAA>yAot? elvai,
B TO 8e tv Trdvv ttoXv hiacfiipeiv tojv dXXojv, ttju
dvSpeiav, yvcoaeadat, 8e /x' e^T^ T€Kp,rjpi,cp TwBe'

ivp-qaeis ydp, t5 Sco/cpaTe?, dvOpionovs avoaioiTd-
* Tt add. Heindorf.
246
— ^
PROTAGORAS
two evils, nobody will choose the greater when he
may the lesser.
AH this met with the assent of everyone.
Well, there something you call dread, or
I said, is
fear ? And is it —
I address myself to you, Prodicus
— —
the same as I have in mind something I describe
as an expectation of evil, whether you call it fear
or dread ?
Protagoras and Hippias agreed to this description

of dread or fear ; but Prodicus thought this was
dread, not fear.
No matter, Prodicus, I said, but my point is this :
if our former statements are true, will any man

wish to go after what he dreads, when he may
pursue what he does not ? Surely this is impossible
—
after what we have admitted that he regards as
evil that which he dreads ? And what is regarded
as evil is neither pursued nor accepted willingly,
we saw, by anyone.
Here also they were all in agreement.
So much, then, being granted, Prodicus and
Hippias, I said, let our friend Protagoras vindicate
the correctness of the answer he made at first
not that which he made at the very beginning,
when he said that, while there were five parts of
virtue, none of them was hke any other, but each
had its particular function I do not refer to that,
:
but the statement he made afterwards,^ when he

proceeded to say that four of them had a consider-
able resemblance to each other, but one was quite
different from the rest courage — and he told me I
;
should perceive this by the following token You :
will find, Socrates, said he, that men may be most
» C/. 330 A foil. Cf. 349 d foil.
247
PLATO
Toys' fiev ovrag /cat dSiKcoTOLTovs Kal aKoXaato-
rdrovs Kal diiadeardrov^, avSpeioTdrovs 84' a)
yvcoaei on ttoXv Staêpei rj dvSpeia rcov dXXcov fio-

piojv rrjs dperrjs. /cat iyo) evdvs rore irdw
iOavfiaaa rrjv d'TTOKpiaiv, /cat en fxdXXov eTreiSi^
rayra /xe0' vfidiv Sie^rjXOov. -qpofjirjv S' ovv

TOVTOV, et Tovs dvSpelovs Ae'yoi dappaXiovs' 6 he,
C Kol Iras y', e^'i?- fidfivrâaL, -qv 8' eyco, c5 ITpajT-
ayopa, ravra dnoKpLvofJievos ; 'D/ioAoyet. "I^t St^,
€cf>rjv iy(o, elrre r]p,LV, inl ri Xeyeis tras elvai, tovs
dvBpeiovs ; ^ i(f>* dnep ol SeiAot; Ou/c e(f}rj. Ovk-

ovv icf)' erepa. Nat, -^ S' os. Ilorepov ol p,€v
SetAot eTTt rd dappaXea epôvrai, ol 8e dfS/aetot eTri
Ta Setm; Aeyerat §17, c5 UtoKpares, ovtcds vtto
Tcbv dvQpojTTOiV. 'AXrjdrj, €(f)r)v eyco, Aeyets" oAA' 01)
X) TOVTO epojTO), dXXd av im ri (^fjs tras elvat rovs

dvSpelovs; dp* em Ta Seivd, rjyovjxdvovs Seivd
etvat, 7] CTTt TO. fiij; AAAa rovro y', e^^y, cv ols av
eXeyes toZs Xoyois aTreSeixdr] apTL otc aSvvarov.
Kat TOVTO, €(f>rjv eyco, dX-qdes Ae'yets" cSctt' et tovto
opdojs dTTeheixGr], eTrl fxev d Setvd rjyelTai etvat
ouSet? epx^Tat,, iTTeiST) to t^tto) etiât eavTov rjvpedrj
dp,adia ovaa. 'QfxoXoyeL. 'AAAa ixrjv iirl d ye

dappovai TrdvTes av epxovTai, Kal SetAot /cat
dvSpetot, /cat TavTT) ye cttl Ta airra epxovTai ol
E SetAot re /cat ot dvBpeioi. 'AAAct /LteVrot,

€(f)7], Jt
Scu/cpares', irdv ye Tovvavriov eartv e77t a 01 re

248
PROTAGORAS
unholy, most unjust, most dissolute, and most
ignorant, yet most courageous ; whence you may
judge that courage is very different from the other
parts of \irtue. His answer caused me great sur-
prise at the moment, and still more when I went
into the matter with your help. But anyhow, I
asked him whether by the brave he meant " bold."
Yes, he replied, and impetuous. Protagoras, I
said,do you remember making this answer ?
He admitted he did.
Well now, I said, tell us, towards what do you
mean they are impetuous when they are courageous ?
Towards the same things as cowards ?
No, he said.
Then towards other things ?
Yes, he said.
Do cowards go after things that allow boldness,
and the courageous after dreadful things ?
So people say, Socrates.
Quite true, I said. But my point is rather,
towards what, according to you, are the brave
impetuous ? Dreadful things, in the belief that
they are dreadful, or towards what is not dreadful ?
No, he said the former has just been shown, by
;
the arguments you put forward, to be impossible.

Quite true again, I said so that if this proof
;
was correct, no one goes to meet what he regards

as dreadful, since to be overcome by oneself was
found to be ignorance.
He admitted this.
And yet all men go also to meet what they can face
boldly, whether cowardly or brave, and in this respect
cowardly and brave go to meet the same things.
But still, Socrates, he said, what cowards go to
249
PLATO
SetAoi epxovrai koI ol dvSpeloi. avTiKa els top
TToXefiov OL ijuev ideXovariv Uvai, ol Se ovk idiXovaiv.
Ylorepov, e<f>7]V eyco, koXov ov teVai rj alaxpov;
KaXov, €(f)r). OvKovv ciTrep KaXov, /cat dyadov
(vpôXoyqaafieu ev rots efXTrpoadev. rds yap KaXds
TTpdêis dndaas dyad as cvfioXoyqaafxev. ÂX-qOrj
Xeyeis, /cat aet efMOLye So/cet ovtcos. ÔpOoJs ye,

360 €(f)r)v iyco. dXXd TTorepovs (f)r]s els rov TToXefxov
OVK eOeXeiv levat, KaXov ov /cat dya^w; Tovs
SeiXovs, 8' OS. OvKovv, '^v 8' iyco, eivep KaXov
^
Kal dyadov, /cat -qSv; 'Q.fjioX6yrjTat. yovv, e(f)7].
*Ap' ovv yiyvcoaKovres ol SetAot ovk edeXovmv

levai eTTL to KaXXiov^ re /cat dpLeivov /cat tJSlov;
'AAAa /cat TOVTO edv onoXoycofjiev, e(f)r), 8ta-
(f)d€povp,ev rds efnrpocrdev ofMoXoylas. Tt S' d

dvBpelos; OVK enl to koXXiov tc /cat dpieivov Kal
B -qSiov epx^rat,; 'Amy/cr^, €(f>'r], 6/xoXoyelv. Ovkouv

oXcos ol dvhpetoL OVK aiaxpovs (f)6ôvs (jioôvvTaL,
OTOV (fio^tovTai, ovSe alaxpd ddppr] dappovaiv;

'AXrjdrj, €(f)r]. Ei Be fxrj alaxpd, dp* ov KaXd;
'Q.[xoX6yeL. El 8e KoXd, Kal dyadd; Nat. Oi5/c-
ovv Kal ol SeiAot /cat ot dpaaels /cat ot fxaivofievoL
TOVvavTiov alaxpovs t€ <j)6ôvs cf)oôvvTai Kal

* KdWiov Stephanus ; Ka\6v mss.
250
PROTAGORAS
meet is the very opposite of what the courageous
go to meet. For instance, the latter are willing

to go to war, but the former are not.
Is going to war an honourable thing, I asked, or a
base thing ?
Honourable, he replied.
Then if it is honourable, we have admitted, by
our former argument, that it is also good ; for we
agreed that all honourable actions were good.
True, and I abide by that decision.
You are right to do so, I said. But which sort of
men do you say are not willing to go to war, that
being an honourable and good thing to do ?
The cowardly, he rephed.
Then, I went on, if it is honourable and good, is it
also pleasant ?
That certainly has been admitted, he said.
Now do the cowards wittingly refuse to go to what
is more honourable, better, and pleasanter ?
Well, if we admit that too, he repHed, we shall
undo our previous admissions.
But what of the courageous man ? Does he not go
to the more honourable and better and pleasanter ?
I am forced to admit that, he said.
Now. in general, courageous men do not feel base
fears, when they fear, nor is there anything base in
their boldness ?
True, he said.
And if not base, then it must be honourable ?
He admitted this.
And if honourable, then good ?
Yes.
And the cowardly and the bold and the mad, on
the contrary, feel base fears and base boldness ?
251
PLATO
aiaxpa Oapp-q dappovaiv; 'Q.p,o\6y€L. Qappovai
oe TO. alaxpa. Kal /ca/ca 8i' aAAo rt, t] Si* ayvoiav
C KaldfiaOlav; Ovrco? ejêt, e^ry. Tlovv; tovto 8l'
o oeiXoL CLGLV ol SciXoL, SeiAiW Tj dvSpeiav KaXels;
AeuXlav eyojy*, ^<f>r]. AetAot 8e ov hid rrjv ratv
heivibv dfiadiav i(}>dvriaav ovres; lldw y , e^rj.
Aio. TavTTjv dpa ttjv dfiaOiav SetAot elcriv; 'H/xoAoyet.
At o oe SetAoi etcrt, SeiAia o/ioAoyciTat irapd aov;
JlvV€(f)7]. OvKOVV 71 tG)V SetVOJV Kal fXTj Seivuiv
dfjiadia SetAi'a ai^ eirj; 'ETrereuaer. 'AAAa /xt^v,
D T^r S eycti, ivavTiov dvSpeia SeiAca. "Kcfyrj.
OvKovv rj rcov Seivcov Kal [j.rj Scivcov aoîa evavria
rfj TOVTOJV dfiaOia iariv; Kai ivravda ert iirevev-
aev. 'H 8e TOVTCov dixadiaBetXia; Ildvv fioy is iv-
Tavda €7Tev€vaev. *H ao(f>ia dpa rGiv heivGiv Kal
fi7) Seivwv dvSpeia iariv, evavria ovaa r^ rovrcov
dfjiadia; OvKeri evravda ovr* eTrivevaai -^deXrâev
eaiya re' Kal iydi ehrov Ti Sry, c5 Wp(x)ray6pa,
252
PROTAGORAS
He agreed.
Do they feel base and evil boldness solely through
stupidity and ignorance ?
Just so, he said.
Well now, the cause of cowards being cowardly,
do you call this cowardice or courage ?
Cowardice, I call it, he replied.
And were they not found to be cowards through
ignorance of what is dreadful ?
Certainly, he said.
And so they are cowards because of that
ignorance ?
He agreed.
And the cause of their being cowards is admitted
by you to be cowardice ?
He assented.
Then ignorance of what is dreadful and not
dreadful will be cowardice ?
He nodded assent.
But surely courage, I went on, is the opposite of
cowardice.
Yes.
Then the wisdom that knows what is and what is not
dreadful is opposed to the ignorance of these things ?
To this he could still nod assent.
And the ignorance of them is cowardice ?
To this he nodded very reluctantly.
So the wisdom that knows what is and what is
not dreadful is courage, being opposed to the
ignorance of these things ?
Here he could no longer bring himself to nod
agreement, and remained silent. Then I proceeded :
Why is Protagoras, that you neither aflBrm nor

it,
deny what I ask you }

85S
PLATO
cure cry (fyfjg
a ipcoTOJ ovre d7T6(f)r]s; Avtos, €(f)7j,
E "nipavov. "Ei/ y', €(f>7]v iyo), [xovov ipofxeuos

ert ae, et aoi coanep ro Trpcorov en Sokovctlv elvai
TLves dvdpcoTTOi dpâdiararoL p.€V, avSpeLoraroi Be.
îXovLKelv p,oi, €(f>r], HcoKpares, to
SoKels, c3
€/xe eiuai top aTTOKpivopevov ovv aoi,
;!â/3iou/Aat
Kttt Ae'yo) OTL CK TOiv cvpoXoyrjpevojv dSvvarou p,OL
So/cet elvai.
OvTOL, ^v 8' eyco, dXXov eveKa ipajTo) iravTa
ravTa, tj aKeipaadai ôvXo/xevos ttcos ttot' €;êt to. ,
Trepi TTJs aperrjs Kal ri ttot* earlv avro, rj dper-q.
361 otSa yap on tovtov (f)avepov yevop,evov fidXiaT

dv KaraSrjXov yevoiro eKelvo, nepl ov eyco re Kal
av jxaKpov Xoyov eKdrepos aTrereiVa/xei/, eyd) p,ev
Xeycov (Ls ov SiSaKTOu dperrj, av 8' (hs SiSaKToy.
Kal p,oi SoKel rji-idtv rj dpn eôSo? tcou Xoyojv
coaTTep dvdpwTTos Karr^yopelv re Kal KarayeXau,
Kal ei (fxvvrjv XdôL, elireZv dv on droTToi y icrre,
c5 HwKpaTes re Kal Ylpcorayopa- av p,ev Xeyoiv
on ov SiBaKrov eanv dperrj ev rots epLTrpoadev,
B vvv aeavTcp rdvavria aTrevSeis, eTnxîpcov dTToSelâi
CVS TTavra xpT]po.ra earlv eTTLar'qp^r], Kal rj SiKaLoavvr)
/cat 7] ao)<f)poavvrj Kal rj dvhpeia, a> rpoTTcp p^dXiar
dv SiSaKrov âveirj rj dperrj- el jiev yap dXXo n
rjv rj eTTLarrjjxrj rj dperrj, coarrep Yipwrayopas
eTTexîpet Xeyeiv, aacfxjjs ovk dv -^v SiSaKrov vvv
8e el <f>avrjaeraL eTTLarrjp,rj dXov, co? av aTrevSeis, a>
Ha>Kpares, davjxdaLov earai firj BiSaKrov ov. Ylpa)T-
ayopas 8' av BtSaKrov rare vTTodefxevos vvv
C rovvavnov eoiKe arrevBovn, oXiyov iravra p,dXXov
âvrjvai avro rj e7n.arrjpLr]v . Kal ovrcos dv rJKLara
254
PROTAGORAS
Finishit, he said, by yourself.
Imust first ask you, I said, just one more question:

Do you still think, as at the beginning, that there
are any people who are most ignorant and yet most
courageous ?
I see, you have set yotir heart on making

Socrates,
me your answerer so, to obhge you, I will say that
;
by what we have admitted I consider it impossible.

My only motive, I then said, in asking all the.se
questionshas been a desire to examine the vario us
relations ot virtue and its own special nature. F or I
^ now that, were once made plain, that othe r
it
question on which you and I have argued at su ch
>^;^ ^^
le ngth on either sid e— von maintAining- Im^ T
—
d enying that virtue can be taught wo^^lf^ Hp r^lpar^ rl
up satisfactorily. Our discussion, in its present
re'sulL, seems to me as though it accused and mocked
us Hke some human person if it were given a
;
voice it would say " What strange creatures

: you
are, Socrates and Protagoras You on the one hand,
!
after ha\-ing said at first that virtue cannot be taught,

are now hot in opposition to yourself, endeavnnrin
g
to prove that all things are Icnou-lpHgP—juîtice,
—
temperance, and courage which is the best way fn
"make virtue appear teachable for if \-irtue were
:
anything else tn an knowledge, as Trotagoras tripH

t o ma ke out, ob dously it would not be teachable :
but if as a matter of fact it turns out to be entirely
knowledge, as you urge, Socrates, I shall be surprised
if it is not teachable. Protagoras, on the other hand,
though at first he claimed that it was teachable,
now seems as eager for the opposite, declaring that
it has been found to be almost anything
but know-
ledge, which would make it quite unteachable " !
255
.
PLATO
etrjSiSaKTov eyco ovv, cS Uptorayopa, navra
ravra KaOopoJv avo) Karoi raparTOfieva Scivo)?,
irdaav TTpodvp,iav ej^ct) Kara(âvrj avTO. yeveadat,
Koi ôvXoCfxrjv av ravra SteêXdovrag -qpidg i$eX-
deZv /cat 6771 rrjv dperrjv 6 ri can, /cai rraAiv etriaKe-
ijjaadai rrepl avrov, etre SiSaKrov etre fxr) StSa/crdr,
fX7) TToXXoLKLS rjfj,ds 6 'FiTn/xrjdevs e/cetvos Kal iv rfj
D aK€i/j€t a(j)rjXrj iâTrar-qaas , axTTrep /cat iv rfj 8ia-

vonjj rjfjLeXrjaev "qpLcov, co? <f>fig av. rjpeaev ovv /xot
/cat iv rw p,vd(x) 6 Ylpopiyjdevs p.dXXov rov Fittl-
fjLTjdeoJS'4* XP^f^^^^^ ^y^^ '^^'' 'n'pofjirjdov[xevos vrrep
rov ^Lov rov ifiavrov navros Trdvra ravra rrpay-

/xareuo/Ltat, /cat €i av ideXois, oirep /cat /car apxo-S
eXeyov, fierd aov av -qSiara ravra avvSLaaKOTTOLrjv
Kal 6 Ilpa)ray6pas, 'Eyco /xeV, e^rj, co Sto/cpare?,
iTTaivo) aov rrjV irpodvpiiav /cat r7]v hUôhov ra>v
E Xoycov. /cat yap ovre rdXXa oljxaL /ca/co? etvat
dvdpcoTTOS, (f)6ovep69 re T^/ctCTT* dvOpioiriov, CTret /cat
TTepi aov rrpos ttoXXovs St) elpr^Ka, ori c5v ivrvyxo-vo)

TToXv iiaXiara dyafxai ae, ra>v p,kv rrijXiKOvrcxiV /cat
TTOVV' KoX Xeyoj ye on ovk av âu/xaôt/xt, et rcov
iXXoyifiiov yevoLO dvSpcbv irrl ao(f)ia. /cat rrept
rovrcov 8e elaavdtg, orav ôvXr), Sie^Lfxev vvv S'

'AAA', 8'
362 wpa rjB-n Kal in dXXo ri rpineadai. rjv
iyu), ovrui XPV "'oteti', et aot So/cet. /cat yap e/iot
olirep eSvv levai TraAat c5pa, oAAd KaAAta rco KaXw

XapLL,oii€vo9 TTapep.eiva. ravr enrovres /cat a/cou-
aavres aTrfjuev.
256
PROTAGORAS
Now I, Protagoras, observing the extraordinary
tangle into which we have managed to get the whole
matter, am most anxious to have it thoroughly
cleared up. And should like to work our way
I
through it until at last we reach what virtue is,

and then go back and consider whether it is teach-
able or not, lest perchance your Epimetheus beguile
and trip us up in our investigation as he overlooked
us in your account of his distribution.^ I hke the
Prometheus of your fable better than the Epime-
theus for he is of use to me, and I
; take Promethean
thought continually for my own life when I am
occupied >vith all these questions so, with your;
consent, as I said at the beginning, I should be

dehghted to have your aid in the inquiry.
I approve your zeal, Socrates, said Protagoras,
and the way you develop your arguments for I ;
think I am not ill-natured, and I am the last person

on earth to be envious. Indeed I have told many
—
people how I regard you as the man I admire far
above any that I meet, and as quite an exception
to men of your age and I say I should not be
;
surprised if you won high repute for wisdom. We

shall pursue the subject on some other occasion, at
your pleasure for the present, it is time to turn to
:
another affair.
I quite agree, said I, if you think so for I was long:
ago due to be where I told you I was going ; I

stayed merely to oblige our excellent Callias.
Here our colloquy ended, and each went his way.
» cy. 321 c
257
MENO
;
INTRODUCTION TO THE MENO
The Meno takes up the question which the Prot-

agoras left waiting for an answer —Can virtue be
taught ? This dialogue proceeds in the direct
dramatic form, without descriptive introduction or
connecting narrative, and in a series of five scenes we
are shown the various resources of Socratic method
in a determined attempt to solve that important
problem. Thus (1) (70 a-80 d) we find that the first
requisite for progress in the search is a definition of,
virtue ; (2) (80 d-86 c) the inquiry is shifted to the
origin of knowledge, which is demonstrated, by an
experiment on one of Meno's young attendants, to
be latent in us, and recoverable by the proper stimu-
lation of our memory ; (3) (86 c-QO b) we return to
the question of what virtue is, and while it appears
to be teachable we are faced with the awkward
—
fact that it has no real teachers it is not taught
(4) (90 B-95 a) Anytus, the typical man of affairs, is
convicted of error in his reliance on convention and
common sense and lastly (5) (95 a-100 b) Socrates
;
discusses with Meno the relation of knowledge, in

which virtue must somehow consist, to the true
opinion which guides practical men along the right
path in everyday life.
The firsttwo of these scenes are preparatory :
they point out that by some means or other we must

260
— —
obtain a definition of the thing itself ^virtue on
which our inquiry is bent, and then we are given a
specimen of the method by which we are most Ukely
to acquire such a piece of real knowledge. With
these two lessons in mind, we return to the question
as it stood at the end of the Protagoras, and come to
grips once more with that great defaulter the —
received system of education. The only hope of
finding our way to the truth for which we are grop-
ing seems to lie in a study of the instinctive opinion
which occasionally guides men of superior character
to the right course of action, and in a comparison
—
of this " inspired " thought which has helped us
already (81) towards the educational principle of
"recollection" — with the reasoned knowledge
which we may look to as an abiding and unfailing
support to ourselves and as a power that we can
transmit to others.
The sane and profound wisdom which moves
beneath the whole discussion is as remarkable as
the clearness and acuteness of its argumentation.
The detection of insufficiency in existing modes of
instruction, and the recognition of rightness in
certain high examples of conduct, are marked by a
gentle humour and a breadth of vision and sympathy
which doubtless distinguished the actual Socrates :
the purpose to which those points are applied of —
turning our gaze to a higher level of education and
—
a surer basis of all thought and action is derived
indeed from the Master, but brought into full
flower, with promise of later fruit, by the personal
ardour and art of Plato. We feel the splendid
determination of a new master-mind ; and although
his attempt at a deeper probing of the question has
261
to be given up for the present without an answer,
we are subtly prepared for the ambitious elaboration
and demonstration of the Republic and the Phaedo.
Besides this main impression, the Meno has many
subsidiary interests. The sophists Protagoras and
Gorgias are referred to with respect, though their
teaching is proved to be seriously defective. We
find here (81) perhaps the first, because so tentative
and diffident, statement in Plato of the soul's
experience of previous existence, and its present
possession of a sort of latent or suppressed knowledge
of general notions, which has to be elicited and
revived by methodical inquiry. Wehave also (79)
an account of the effect of Socrates' conversations
upon his disciples, which is a useful counterpart
and complement to the excited rhapsody of Alci-
biades in the Symposium (215) ; while the humorous,
mystifying modesty of Socrates in ascribing his
highest beliefs to converse with poets, priests, and
priestesses (81) is of a piece with his manner in the
Symposium and elsewhere. Finally we should notice
the suddenness of Anytus' appearance on the scene,
and his abrupt exit : remembering that he was
afterwards the accuser of Socrates, and observing
the language and tone of his warning to that reckless
critic of the democracy, we must conclude that
Plato contrived the episode with the deliberate
purpose of showing that he did not blame any
single person for his beloved Master's death, but
cherished a nobler grudge against a world that was
politically and intellectually out of joint. He thus
brings us almost unawares to the edge of the rift
which was opening in his mind between philosophy
and the ordinary life of affairs we see it gaping
:
262
wide and grim in the Gorgias ; when we come to
the Republic, it is a well-known gulf, to be carefully
measured and mapped.
Meno was a young Thessalian of noble and

wealthy family. He is supposed here to be on a
visit to Athens about 402 B.C., three years before
the death of Socrates. He has acquired some
literary and scientific knowledge by association with
Gorgias, who spent his last few years in Thessaly.
He took part as a general in the great march of the
Ten Thousand with Cyrus in 401 B.C. Xenophon
depicts him in the Anabasis as greedy, self-seeking
and treacherous. Plato shows us his pleasanter
side, though we find here that he is rather conceited
and lacking in self-control (76 a, 80 b, c, 86 d).
The Meno has been edited, with ample introduc-

tion and notes, by E S. Thompson (Macmillan,
1901).
i6s
MENI2N
[h nEPI APETH2 •
nEIPA2TIK02]
TA TOT AIAAOrOT nPOZfiHA

MENflN, 2nKPATH2, nAI2 MENnN02, ANTT02
8t II. MEN. "Ex^LS fxoL elTTctv, <L HcoKpares, apa StSa-

p. 70 » »> / «
KTOV 7j aperrj; rj ov><>o
>\\»'
oioaKTOV aAA aoK-qrov; i)
« * '
ovre daKTjTov ovre p.ad-qrov, dAAa ^vaei Trapa-

yiyveraL tols avOpcoTTOis rj aXXco nvl rpoTrcp;
2n. ^Q. Mevcov, 77/30 rov fxkv ©erraAot euSo/cijUoi
Tjaav iv rots "EAAiyai /cat idavixdôvro i(f)^ lttttlkt]
B T€ Kol irXovTcp, vvv 8e, cos ifiol So/cet, /cat errt
ao(f)La, /cat ovx rJKiara ol rov aov iraipov 'Api-
OTLTTTTOV TToAtTat AaptCTtttOt. TOXJTOV Sc t5)MtV
atTtds" ecTTt Fopyias"- d(f)iK6p,€vos yap els ttjv

TToXiv ipaards ctti ao<f>ia eiXr](f)€V 'AAeuaScav' re
Tou? TTpcoTovs, cov 6 aos ipacTTTjs lariv 'Aptar-
LTTTTOs, /cat rcov dXX(x)v QeTToXayv /cat hr] /cat
rovTo TO eWiKev, d(f)6ôjs re /cat /xeyaAo-
e'ô? y/xa?
TTpeTTcbs aTTOKpiveadat,, idv ris tl epr^Tai, coaTrep
C et/co? Tous" etSoTa?, are /cat auro? TrapeÔiV avTOV

epcoTav rojv 'EAAt^vcdv to) ôvXafievu) 6 rt dv rts
PovXrjrai, /cat ovSevl oro) ovk dTTOKpivo/jievos. ev-
264
MENO
[or on VIRTUE: testing]
CHARACTERS
Meno, Socrates, Meno's Boy, Anytus
MEN. Can you tell me, Socrates, whether virtue

can be taught, or is acquired by practice, not teach-
ing ? Or if neither by practice nor by learning,
whether it comes to mankind by nature or in some
other way ?
soc. Meno, of old the Thessalians were famous
and admired among the Greeks for their riding and
their riches; but now they have a name, I believe,
for wisdom also, especially your friend Aristippus's
people, the Larisaeans. For this you have to thank
Gorgias ; for when he came to that city he made
—
the leading men of the Aleuadae among them
—
your lover Aristippus and the ThessaUans generally
enamoured of wisdom. Nay more, he has given
you the regular habit of answering any chance
question in a fearless, magnificent manner, as befits
those who know for he sets the example of offering
:
himself to be questioned by any Greek who chooses,

and on any point one likes, and he has an answer
for everybody. Now in this place, my dear Meno,
265
;
PLATO
uaoe 8e, îXe yievoiv, to ivavrtov TrepiearrjKev
co
71 axTTTcp rrjs ao<j)ias yeyovev, /cat Kiv-

avxfJ'OS rt?
Svv€V€L e/c TcovSe Twv roTTcov Trap' vfids otxâdat
7] ao(f)la' el yovv riva ediXeis ovrcos ipeadai rcov
evddSe, ovSelg o'crris" ov yeXdaerai /cat ipel' c5
$dv€, KivSvvevco aoi hoKeZv jxaKapLos ris elvai,
dperrjv yovv etre StSa/crot' et^' oro) rpoTTcp Trapa-
ytyverat etSeVat' iyoj Se roaovrov Seco etre
LoaKTOv etre /u.i) oioaKrov eLoevai, coot oyoe auro,
o Ti TTor' ecTTt TO TTapaTTOv dperrj, rvyxdvco elSios.
B 'Kyd) ovv /cat aurds", cS MeVcuv, ovrcos e;;â>* ctu//.-
TrevoyLtat rot? TroAiVat? tovtov rod Trpay/xaros", /cat
ifiavrov /caTa/xe/x<ô/xat cu? oi5/c etSco? Txept dperrj's
to TTapaTTav o Se ^mt) oiSa rt ecTt, ttoj? av otto 101/
ye Tt eiSelrjv; ^ So/cet croi otdv re clvac, octtls
MeVctJi'a /i'17 ytyvtocr/cei to Trapdnav oaris iari;
Tovrov elhevai etre /caAos" etre TrXovaios elre /cat
yevt'atds' iariv, etre /cat rdvavria tovtcov; 80/cet
CTOt oidv T etvai;
MEN. Oj)/c efioiye. dXXd av, c5 HcoKpareg,
C dXrjdcos ou8' o Tt dpeTry eo-Tiv olada, dXXd ravra
TTeplaov /cat ot/caSe aTrayyeXXcofiev
2n. Mt) fxovov ye, c5 iralpe, dXXd /cat ori ou8*
aAAo) TTCO everv)(ov eiSoTi, co? e/xot 80/cco.
MEN. Tt 8e; Fo/jyta ou/c ivervx^s ore ivddBe
2n. "Eycoye.
MEN. Etra ou/c eSd/cei crot eiSerat;
2X1. Ov TTCtvy ei/xt fxvqfxajv, co MeVcov, toore
oy/c e;)(Co eiTretf «' toj Trapovri, ttojs p.01 rore
cboêv. dXX tCTco? e/cetvds' t€ oiSe, /cat cry a
D e'/cetj/os eAeyei'* dvdfjivrjaov ovv /xe, ttcoj eAeyev.
266
MENO
we have a contrary state of things a drought of :
wisdom, as it were, has come on and it seems as

;
though wisdom had deserted our borders in favour of

yours. You have only to ask one of our people a
question such as that, and he will be sure to laugh
and say Stranger, you must think me a specially
:
favoured mortal, to be able to tell whether virtue

can be taught, or in what way it comes to one so :
far am I from knowing whether it can be taught or

not, that I actually do not even know what the
thing itself, virtue, is at all.
And I myself, Meno, am in the same case ; I
share my townsmen's poverty in this matter I :
have to reproach myself with an utter ignorance about

virtue ;and if I do not know what a thing is, how
can I know what its nature may be ? Or do you
imagine it possible, if one has no cognisance at all
of Meno, that one could know whether he is hand-
some or rich or noble, or the reverse of these ?
Do you suppose that one could ?
MEN. Not I. But is it true, Socrates, that you
do not even know what virtue is ? Are we to return
home with this report of you ?
soc. Not only this, my friend, but also that I
never yet came across anybody who did know, in
my opinion.
MEX. What ? You did not meet Gorgias when
he was here ?
soc. I did.
MEN. And you
didn't consider that he knew?
soc. I have not a very good memory, Meno, so I
cannot tell at the moment how he struck me then.
It may be that he did know, and that you know
what he said : remind me therefore how he expressed
267
PLATO
el 8e jSouAet, avros etVe'' So/cei yap S^ttov aot
direp iKeivo).
MEN. "E/Liotye.
5n. 'E/cetv'ov' jLtev roivvv eco/xev, €7T€cS-f] /cat
aneaTiv' av Se auro?, oi Trpo? dewv, MeVa>v, Ti
^27? dperrjv elvau; clttov Kal jjurj (ftdovTâr^g, tva
evrvxâraTOv j/reucr/xa eipevafievos a), av (f>av7Js
crv p.kv etSo)? /cat ro/ayia?, eyci; 8e elprjKcbs p.rjBevi
TTcoTTore eiSoTt evrervxf]KevaL.
E MEN. 'AAA' ou pâAeTTot', c5 HcoKpares, eiTretv.
TTpcjTov fxev, el ôvXet avhpos dper-qv, paSiov, on
avTT) dvhpos dpeTi], Ikovov elvai ra rrj?
icrrlv
TToXeoiS TTpdrreiv, Kal Trpdrrovra rovs fiev îXov;
eS TTOielv, Tovs S' ixdpovs KaKcos, /cat avrov
evXaêtadai p,r]S€V roiovrov Tradetv. el Se ôvXei
yvvacKos dper'qv, ov ^P-XeTTOv hieXdeZv, on Set
avTrjv TTjv olKiav eS oIk€lv, acoôvcrdv re ra evSov
/cat KaT'qKOov ovaav rov dvSpog. /cat dXXr] earc
TTaiSos dpeTT], /cat O'qXei.as /cat dppevos, /cat Ttpe-

a^vrepov dvSpos, eXevdepov, el Se
el fxev ôvXei,
72 ôvXei, hovXov. /cat aAAat dperaiTTCt/XTroAAai

elaiv, oiore ovk dTTopla elnetv dperrjv Trepi o n
eon' Kad^ eKdarrjv yap twv Trpdêoiv Kat rGiV
•r]XiKioiv TTpos eKaarov epyov eKaano r/jjicov rj aper-q
ecrnv cbaavrcos Be, ot/xai, d) ljd)Kpares, Kat rj
KaKia.
2n. YloXXfj ye nvL evrvxô- eot/ca Kexpyjodai,
CO MeVcoi/, el fxlav ^rjrojv dperrjv ap,rjv6s n dv-
rjvpyjKa dperibv napd aol KeifievcDV. arap, d)
MeVojv, Kara ravrrjv rrjv elKova rriv irepL ra
B op-iQViq, el p,ov epop,evov fieXirrrjs Trepi ovaias
^Q9
MENO
it ; or if you like, make your own statement, for I
expect you share his views.
MEN. I do.
soc. Then let us pass him over, since in fact he
is not present, and do you tell me, in heaven's
name, what is your own account of virtue. Speak
out frankly, that I may find myself the victim of a
most fortunate falsehood, if you and Gorgias prove to
have knowledge of it, while I have said that I never
yet came across anyone who had.
MEN. Why, there is no difficulty, Socrates, in
telling. First of all, if you take the virtue of a man,
it is easily stated that a man's virtue is this that —
he be competent to manage the affairs of his city,
and to manage them so as to benefit his friends and
harm his enemies, and to take care to avoid suffering
harm himself. Or take a woman's virtue there
:
is no difficulty in describing it as the duty of ordering
the house well, looking after the property indoors,

and obeying her husband. And the child has
—
another virtue one for the female, and one for the
male and there is another for elderly men one,
; —
if you like, for freemen, and yet another for slaves.
And there are very many other virtues besides, so
that one cannot be at a loss to explain what virtue
is for it is according to each activity and age that
;
every one of us, in whatever we do, has his virtue ;

and the same, I take it, Socrates, will hold also of
vice.
soc. I to be in a most lucky way, Meno ;
seem
one virtue I have discovered a whole
for in seeking
swarm of virtues there in your keeping. Now,
Meno, to follow this figure of a swarm, suppose I
should ask you what is the real nature of the bee,
VOL. IV K 269
; ;
PLATO
o Tt TTOT ecTTi, TToAAo,? /fttt TravToSaTToLs' eAeye5
aura? elvai, tL av aTreKpivoj (jlol, ei ae -qpofi-qv
apa rovrcp ^fjs TToXkas kol TravrohaTras etuai
Kal hiaêpovaas dAATÂoji', rep p,eXLTTas eiiâi;
T] rovrcp p,kv ovhev Staêpouatv, aAAa> Se r(p,
OLOV 7) /caAAet iq fxeyedei •^ ctAAoj rep rcov roiovrtov
61776, Tt av a7T€KpLva) ovrojs epiorrjdeis
MEN. Tout' eycoye, ori ovSev Sta(f)€povai,v,
Tj fxeXirrai elaiv, rj irlpa rrjs erepag.
^ 2n.Et ovv eliTov pier a ravra' rovro roivvv
pLOL avro €L7t4, o) MeVcov a) ovhkv 8t,acf)€povat,v
oAAo. ravrov claiv aTTaaai, ri rovro (f>rjs elvai;
etês" ^rjTTov av ri pLOL elTreZv;
MEN. "Eycoye.
2n. Ovroi 8rj Kal Trepl ru)V dpercov kSlv el
TToXXal Koi TTOvrohaTTai elaiv, iv ye rt elSos ravrov
aTTacrai exovai, 8t' o elalv aperai, els o koKojs
7TOV eêi ano^Xeipavra rov aTTOKpivopievov rep
epcorrjaavri eKeZvo SrjXaxrat,, o riry)(avei ovaa
D aperrj' ri ov puavOaveis 6 ri Xeyoi;
MEN. AoKw ye pLoi pt,av9dvet,v' ov pLcvrot a>?
ôvXopiai ye tto) Kareô) ro epojrcopLevov.
2n. Uorepov Se Trepl dperijs p-ovov aoL ovrcu
SoKel, (L MeVojv, ciAAt^ p,ev dvhpos elvai, dXXr] Se
yvvaLKOs Kal rcov dXXa>v, ^ Kal Trepl uyieta? Kai
rrepl pceyedovs Kal Trepl laxvos coaavnos; aXXir]
pt,ev dvSpos hoKel aot, elvai vyieia, dXXr] 8e yvvai-
Kos; 7} ravrov Travraxov elSos eariv, edvTrep

E vyieia 7], edvre ev dvSpl idvre ev dXXco orcpovv 'fj;
270
MENO
and you replied that there are many different kinds
of bees, and I rejoined Do you say it is by being
:
bees that they are of many and various kinds and

differ from each other, or does their difference lie
—
not in that, but in something else for example,
in their beauty or size or some other quality ? Tell
me, what would be your answer to this question ?
—
MEN. WTiy, this that they do not differ, as bees,
the one from the other.
see. And if I went on to say Well now, there
:
is this that I want you to tell me, Meno what do

:
you call the quality by which they do not differ,

but are all alike ? You could find me an answer,
I presume ?
MEN. could.
I
soc. And
likewise also with the virtues, however
many and various they may be, they all have one
common character whereby they are virtues, and
on which one would of course be wise to keep an
eye when one is giving a definitive answer to the
question of what virtue really is. You take my
meaning, do you not ?
MEN. My impression is that I do but still
; I
do not yet grasp the meaning of the question as I
could \vish.
soc. Is it only in the case of \irtue, do you think,
Meno, that one can say there is one kind belonging
to a man, another to a woman, and so on with the
rest, or is it just the same, too, in the case of health
and and strength ? Do you consider that
size
there is one health for a man, and another for a
woman ? Or, wherever we find health, is it of
the same character universally, in a man or in
anyone else ?
271
. ;
PLATO
MEN. *H avr-q fxoi SoKel vyieLo. ye elvai Ka\
dvSpos Kal yvvaLKos.
sn. OvKovv Kal fieyeOos Kal Igxvs; edwep
laxvpa yvvrj rj, ra> avro) e'lhei Kal rfj avrfj IcrxvC
laxypo- ecrrat; ro yap rfj avrfj rovro Aeyco* ovhev
Staêpet Tvpos ro lax^s elvat rj Icrxvs, idvre iv
dvBpl rj Idvre iv yvvaiKL' •^ So/cet ri aoi Siaê'/aetP';
MEN. OvK efjbotye.
73 2n. 'H Se dperrj Trpos to dperrj eivai Stotcret ri,
idvre iv TratSt rj idvre iv rrpea^vrrj, idvre iv
yvvaLKl idvre iv dvSpi;
MEN. "EjLtotye TTCDS SoKet, u) HwKpares, rovro
ovKeri, ofjLOiov elvai rols dXXois rovroLS.
2n. Tt 8e; OVK dvSpos p-ev dperrjv eXeyes
TToXiv ev StotKeXv, yvvaiKos Se olKiav;
MEN. "Eycuye.
2n. *Ap' ovv olov re ev StotKelv t] ttoXlv rj
OLKLav iq dXXo otlovv, pLrj CFa)(f)p6va)s Kal Si/cato)?

SioLKovvra;
B MEN. Ov Sijra.
2fl. OvKovv dvrrep St/cat'o)? Kal a(o(f)p6va)s
SioLKoJai, BiKaioavvr] Kal aco(/)poavvrj StoiK'qcrovatv
MEN. 'Amy/cr^.
5n. Tcov avrcov dpa dp.cl)6r€poL heovrat, enrep
fieXXovaiv dyadol elvat, Kal r) yvvrj Kal 6 dvqp,
BcKaiocTvvrjs Kal aa)<j>poavvrjs
MEN. âivovrai.
2X1. Ti Se TTals Kal rrpea^vrrjs ; p-cov d/co-
Xaarot ovres kol aSt/cot dyadol dv rrore yevotvro;
MEN. Oi5 Srjra.
2X1. 'AAAa adxjjpoves /cat Si/catoi;
272
MENO
MEff. I think that health is the same, both in
man and in woman.
soc. Then not so with size and strength
is it
also ? If a woman
is strong, she v,i\\ be strong by
reason of the same form and the same strength ;
by " the same " I mean that strength does not

differ as strength, whether it be in a man or in a
woman. Or do you think there is any difference ?
MEN. I do not.
soc. And will virtue, as virtue, differ at all whether
it be in a child or in an elderly person, in a woman
or in a man ?
MEN. I feel somehow, Socrates, that here we cease

to be on the same ground as in those other cases.
soc. Why ? Were you not saying that a man's
virtue is to manage a state well, and a woman's
a house ?
MEN. I was.
soc. And is it possible to manage a state well,
or a house, or anything at all, if you do not manage
it temperately and justly ?
MEN. Surely not.

soc. Then whoever manages temperately and
justly will manage with temperance and justice ?
MEN. That must be.
soc. Then both the woman and the man require
the same qualities of justice and temperance, if
they are to be good.
MEN. Evidently.
soc. And what of a child or an old man ? Can
they ever hope to be good if they are intemperate
and unjust ?
MEN. Surely not.

soc. Only if they are temperate and just ?
273
PLATO
MEN. Nai.
C 2n. YldvTes ap* avdpcoTToi rut avrcp rpoino
dyadoi elai' rcov avrcbv yap Tvxdvres dyadol
yiyvovrai.
MEN. "Eot/cer.
2n. OvK dv Stjttou, ei ye fxr] 'q avrrj dperrj
r/P avTcov, rw avrco dv rpoircx) dyaOol rjaav.
MEN. Ov Srjra.
2n. 'EttciSt^ roivvv rj avrrj dperrj ndvrcjv
eari, Treipo) eirrelv Kat avajjLvrjadfjvai, ri avro
^Tjai Vopyias etvai /cat av jier* eKeivov.
MEN. Tt (xAAo y rj apxî-v olov r etvai ra>v
J) dvdp(i}TT(x)v; e'Lirep ev ye ri t^yjrels Kara Trdvrcov.
xn. 'AAAo. fi-qv ^rjrco ye. aAA' dpa /cat
TratSo? rj avrrj dperrj, cS MeVcoi/, /cat SouAoy, dpêiv
OLcp re elvai rod Secnrorov, /cat So/cet aoi en dv
SovXos elvai 6 dp^cov;
MEN. Ov rrdvv jxoi hoKeZ, tS HiOKpares.
2n. Ov ydp €lk6s, c5 dpiare. eri, yap /cat
ToSe OKOTTef dpxîv (f)fjs olov r elvai' ov Trpoa-

drjaojiev avroae ro St/catcoj, dSt'/co;? 8e \jJj;
MEN. Oljiai eyoiye' rj ydp SiKaioavvrj , c5
JlcoKpares, dperrj eartv.
E 2n. Ilorepov dperrj, u) yievojv, rj dperrj rts;
MEN. Hcbs rovro Xeyeis;
2n. 'Q? TTepl dXKov orovovv. olov, el fiovXei,
arpoyyvXorrjros Trepi etVotû. ai' eycoye, on a^rjlâ
Tt ear IV, ovx ovrcos ctTrAcDs' on ax'fjp-a.. 8id
ravra Be ovrcog dv etVot/xt, on /cat aAAa can
axT^fJ'Cira.
MEN. Ôpdcbs ye Xeyojv av, CTrel /caj eyo) Aeytu
ov jjLovov SiKaioavvTjv aAAa /cat aAAa? eivat dperds.
274
:
MENO
MEN. Yes.
soc. So all mankind are good in the same way ;
for they become good when they acquire the same
qualities.
MEN. So seems.
it
soc. And presume, if they had not the same
I
virtue, they would not be good in the same way.
MEN. No, indeed.
soc. Seeing then that it is the same \irtue in all
cases, try and tell me, if you can recollect, what
—
Gorgias and you in agreement with him say it is. —
MEN. Simply that it is the power of governing
mankind — if you want some single description to
cover all cases.
soc. That is just what I am after. But is virtue
the same in a child, Meno, and in a slave an ability —
to govern each his master ? And do you think he
who governed would still be a slave ?
MEN. I should say certainly not, Socrates.
soc. No, indeed, it would be unlikely, my excellent
friend. And again, consider this further point
you say it is " to be able to govern " shall we
—
not add to that " justly, not unjustly " ?
;
MEN. Yes, I think so for justice, Socrates, is

;
virtue.
soc. Virtue, Meno, or a virtue ?
MEN. What do you mean by that ?
soc. WTiat I would in any other case. To take
roundness, for instance I should call it a figure,
;
and not figure pure and simple. And I should

name it so because there are other figures as well.
MEN. You would be quite right ^just as I say there
are other virtues besides justice.
—
275
PLATO
74 sn. TtVa? ravrag; etVe- olov Kal iyw aoi
eiTTOLfXi av Kal d'AAa axr}ixara, et jxe /ceAeuots"
/cat crj) ovv ifxol eiTre aAAa? dperds.
MEN. H dvhpeia roivvv e/Ltoiye 8o/cet dperrj
eiv-at /cat aoi(j>poavvrj /cat ao(j)ia /cat fieyaXoTTpe-jre la
/cat d'AAat TrdfiTToXXai.
2n. IlaAti^, c5 Met'toi', rauToi' TreTTovdafiev
TroAAd? au rjvp-qKafiev dperds /itav ^rjTOVvres,
dXXov rpoTTOV -^ vi't'Si^- TT^v' 8e ju.tat', -^ Std TrdvTwv
rovTcov lariv, Swdfjueda dvevpelv.
oi)
B MEN. Oi) yd/3

hvvaiiai ttco, cS Sco/c/aares-, co?
CTi) i,7]r€is, fJitav dperrjv Aaêtv /card Trdi^Tcui/,
(vaTTep iv Tolg dAAoiS".
2n. Et/cdrcDS' ye* dAA' eyo) TTpodvixrjaop,ai,
eav OLOS r c5, i^/zd? Trpo^L^daai. p,avddv€is
yap 7TOV, on ovrojOL €)(€l Trept Travros' et rt's" ce
avepoLTO rovro, o vvvhrj iyd) eXeyov, tl eoTi ax'rjP'O-,
w Mev'cov; et avrco eiires otl arpoyyvXorrjs, ei!
aoL €L7T€V ttTTe/j eyco, TTorepov a)(fjpLa rj arpoy-
yvXorrjs icrriv t] axrjP'd tl; etnes St^ttov av on
axrjiid TL.
MEN. Wdvv ye.
Q, 2n. Ou/cow Std TavTa, otl kol dXXa ecrri
ax'^p-aTa;
MEN. Nat.
2n. Kat et ye TrpoaavrjpcoTa cre oTrota, eAeye? av;
MEN. "Eyoiye.
2n. Kat av et 7re/oi ;^/oa)/xaTOS' (LaavToy? dv-
rjpeTo o TL kari, /cat etVdvTOS" croy, ort to Aeu/cdv,
/Ltera raura vneXaêv 6 ipcoroJv, rrorepov to
XevKov xP^H'd ioTLV rj xP^f^d tl; etTre? av OTi
XpoJp,d TL, SioTi KOL dXXa TvyxdvcL ovTa;
276
MENO
What are they ? Tell me. In the same way
soc.
as can tell you of other figures, if you request me,
I
so do you tell me of other virtues.
MEN, Well then, courage, I consider, is a virtue,
and temperance, and wisdom, and loftiness of mind ;
and there are a great many others.
soc. Once more, Meno, we are in the same
plight : again we have found a number of virtues
when we were looking for one, though not in the
same way as we did just now but the one that ;
runs through them all, this we are not able to find.

MEN. No, for I am not yet able, Socrates, to follow
your line of search, and find a single virtue common
to all, as one can in other cases.
soc. And no wonder but I will make an effort,
;
so far as I can, to help us onward. You understand,

of course, that this principle of mine applies to
everything if someone asked you the question I
:
put to you just now : What is figure, Meno ? and

you replied : Roundness ; and then he said, as I did :
Isroundness figure or a figure ? I suppose you would

answer A figure.:
MEN. Certainly.
soc. And for this reason that there are other —
figures as well ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. And if he went on to ask you of what sort
they were, you would tell him ?
MEN. I would.
soc. And if he asked likewise what colour is,
and on your answering " white " your questioner
then rejoined Is " white " colour or a colour ?
:
your reply would be A colour ; because there are

:
other colours besides.

VOL. IV K 2 277
;
PLATO
MEN. "Eycuye.
2n. Kat
et yi ae eVe'Aeue Ae'yeiv aAAa xpf^H-o-ra,
D e'Aeye?av a'AAa, a ovhev rJTTOv rvyxdvei, ovra XP^'

fxara rod XevKOv;
MEN. Nat.
2n. Et ovv cooTTep iyw /nerTyet tov Xoyov,
Kal eXeyev on del els ttoXXo, d(f>LKVovfi,€6a, dAAd
/LIT] /xot ovrcos, aAA eireihr] rd ttoAAo. ravra ivi
rivi vpocrayopeveis dvojxaTi, Kal (^r^s
ovSev avrcov
o TL ov ax^P'O. etvaL, /cat ravra Kal evavria ovra
dXXiqXoLS, 6 rt kart rovro, o ovSev y^rrov Karexei
ro arpoyyvXov ^ ro evdv, o hrj ovofxaêis ax^jp-a
E 'cat ovSev fxaXXov (f>fjs ro arpoyyvXov ax^jpo. elvai
7^ ro evdv; tj ovx ovrco Xeyeis;
MEN. "Eycoye.
2n. Â/)' ovv, orav ovrco Xeyrjs, rore ouSev
fidXXov (f>f)S ro arpoyyvXov etvai arpoyyvXov rj
evdv, ovhe ro evdv evdv -^ arpoyyvXov
MEN. Ov StJttov, (5 TiOiKpares.

2n. 'AAAct/iTyi' ax'fjP'd ye ovSev p,dXXov <j)fj^
etvat ro arpoyyvXov rod evdeos, ov8e ro erepov
rov erepov.
MEN. 'AXrjdi] Xeyeis.
2X1. Tt TTore ovv rovro, ov rovro ovofxd ecrrt,
TO ax^p-o.; TTeipo) Xeyeiv. et ovv ra> epojrdJvrL
75 ovruis Tj TTepl axrjP'aros rj XP^P'^^°^ etnes on

dAA' ovSe fxavddvo) eycoye o n
ôvXei, c5 dvdpcDne,
ovSe ol8a 6 n
Xeyets' laois dv edavfiaae Kal
eiTTev ov fiavdaveLs , on ^rjrcb ro enl irdai rovrois
ravrov; t) ovSe enl TOUTOt?, ci) MevoiV, epôt? dv
278
MENO
MEN. It would.
soc. And if he bade you mention other colours,
you would tell him of others that are colours just as
much as white ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. Now suppose that, like me, he pursued the
argument and said We are always arri\ing at a
:
variety of things, but let me have no more of that :
since you call these many things by one single

name, and say they are figures, every one of them,
even when they are opposed to one another, tell
me what is that which comprises round and straight
—
aUke, and which you call figure including straight
equally with round under that term. For that is
your statement, is it not ?
MEN. It is.
soc. And in making it, do you mean to say that
round is no more round than straight, or straight
no more straight than round ?
MEN. No, to be sure, Socrates.
soc. What you mean is that the round shape is
no more a figure than the straight, or the straight
than the round.
ME\. Quite right.
soc. Then what can this thing be, which bears the
name of figure ? Try and tell me. Suppose that,
on being asked this question by someone, either
about figure or about colour, you had replied Why, :
I don't so much as understand what you want,

sir, or even know what you are saying he might
:
well have shown surprise, and said Do you not

:
understand that I am looking for that which is the

same common element in all these things ? Or
would you still be unable to reply, Meno, if you were
279
; ;
PLATO
> \
eiTTeiv, et ti? epcorcor]' eanv em
tl rep arpoy-
yvXcp /cat evdel Kal eirl rols dXXoLs, a axripiara
S-q
KaXels, ravrov ctti Trdac; TreLpw enrelv, Iva koL

yevqrat, croi ixeXerr) npos r-qv Trepc ttjs aperrjs
aTTOKpiatv.
B MEN. M77, dXkd av, (3 TicoKpares, etVe.
2fl. BouAei aoi ^(apiaoipiai
MEN. Yldvv ye.
2n. 'EêATyCTCt? ovv Kal av ep,ol elirelv nepl
rfjs dperijs;
MEN. "lîyojye.
2n. Upodv/JLTjreov roivvv dîov yap,
MEN. Yldvv fxev ovv.
2n. êpe Sij, TreipcofieOd aoi emetv, tl eart
ax^P'O.. aKorrei ovv el roSe dTTohexjj avro eli'ai-
earo) yap Srj 'qp.lv rovro ax'fjp-a, o p,6vov tcov

ovroiV Tvyxdvei ;^pci>/xaTt del eiropêvov. iKavaJs
aoi, "q dXXcos ttojs t.rjTels; eydi yap Kav ovrojs
dyaTTwrjV el p,oi, dper-qv etTrois".
C MEN. 'AAXa rovTO ye eirqdes, c5 HcoKpares.

2n. HdJs Xeyeis;
MEN. "On ax'qp-d ttov eari Kara rov aov
Xoyov, o del XPoa eTrerai. elev el he Srj r-qu
Xpdav Tis P''q <j>airi elhevai, aXXd (Laavrojs dTTopol

warrep irepl rov axTJp-o-Tos, ri av olei aoi aTTO-
KeKpiadai
2ri. TdXridrj eyojye' Kal el p,ev ye rcov ao(f)cov
ns eiT^ Kal epiariKaJv re Kai aycoviaTiKiov 6
D ep6p,evos, et770t/x' dv avrcp on ep,ol pêv etp-qrai'
el 8e p,rj opdcbs Xeyo), aov epyov Xap-^dveiv Xoyov
Kal eXeyxîv. el Se cjoTrep eyco re /cat av vvvl
<j)iXoi ovres ôvXolvto dXXiqXois SiaXeyeaOai, Set
280
;
MENO
approached on other terms, and were asked What :
is it that is common to the round and the straight

and everything else that you call figures the same —
in all ? Try and tell me it will be good practice
;
for your answer about virtue.

MEX. No, it is you who must answer, Socrates.
soc. You wish me to do you the favour ?
MEN. By all means.
soc. And then you will agree to take your turn
and answer me on virtue ?
MEN. I will.
soc. Well then, I must make the effort, for it is
worth our while.
MEN. Certainly.
soc. Come now, let me try and tell you what
figure is. Just consider if you accept this description
of it : figure, let us say, is the only existing thing that
is found always following colour. Are you satisfied,
or are you looking for something different ? I am
sure I should be content vnth a similar account of

virtue from you.
MEN. But it is such a silly one, Socrates.
soc. How do you mean ?
MEN. Well, figure, as I understand by your account,
is what always follows colour. Very good but if ;
some one said he did not know colour, and was in the
same difficulty about it as about figure, what answer
do you suppose would have come from you ?
soc. The truth, from me and if my questioner
;
were a professor of the eristic and contentious sort,

I should say to him I have made my statement
:
if it is wrong, your business is to examine and refute

it. But if, like you and me on this occasion, we were
friends and chose to have a discussion together, I
281
; ;
PLATO
^rj TTpaorepov ttojs koL StaXeKTiKcorepov oltto-
Kpiveadai. eari 8e taws to SiaXeKriKcorepov firj
fjLovov rdXrjdrj aTTOKpiveudai, aXka koL hi eKeivwv
<hv av Trpoao/jioXoyfj eiSeVat o ipajrcu/xevos. Tret-
pdcrofiau St] /cat iyco aoi ovtojs etVeit'. Aeye
yap fMOi' TeXevTrjv KaXeZs ri; roiovSe Xeyco olov
E TTepas Kol eaxo-rov Trdvra ravra ravrov tc Xeyw
tacos S' dv r][XLV YlpoSiKos hiaêpoLTO' dXXd av
yi 7TOV KaXels TreTTepdvdai tl Kal TereXevrrjKevaf
TO TOLOVTOv ôvXojjiaL Xiyeiv, ovhev ttolklXov.
MEN. 'AAAd KaXw, Kal olfjLai p,avddv€iv 6
Xeyeis.
7(5 2X1. Tl S'; iTTLTreSov KaXeis rt,, Kal erepov
av arepeov, olov ravra rd ev yeojyLerpiais
MEN. "Eycuye /caAcD.
2n. "HStj roivvv dv piddois p-ov eV rovrcov,
CT;)^r^/xa o Xeyco. Kara yap Travros axT^p-o-Tos
rovro Xeyco, els oto arepedv rrepalvei, rovr^
elvai ax^P'O.' drrep dv avXXa^div eLTTOtp.t arepeov
TTepas axrjP'O- elvai.
MEN. To 8e XP^H''^ ''"^ Xeyeis, d> HcoKpares
2n. 'Y^piarijs y' et, c5 Mevcov dvSpl rrpea^vrrj
Trpdyp,ara Trpoararreis arroKpiveadai, avros Se
]3 ovK eê'AetS" dvap,vr)adeis elireiu, 6 rl TTore Xeyei
Vopylas dperrjv elvai.
MEN. 'AAA' eTTeiSdv p,oi av rovr' eiTTjjs, w
ILwKpares, epd) ooi.
2Xi. Kai' KaraKeKaXvp.p.€vos ris yvoir], Jj
Mevcov, SiaXeyopevov aov, on KaXos el koi epaarai

aoi en eiaiv.
282
;
MENO
should have to reply in some milder tone more suited
to dialectic. The more dialectical way, I suppose,
is not merely to answer what is true, but also to
make use of those points which the questioned
person acknowledges he knows. And this is the
way in which I shall now try to argue with you.
Tell me, is there something you call an end ? Such
a thing, I mean, as a limit, or extremity I use all —
these terms in the same sense, though I daresay
Prodicus ^ might quarrel with us. But you, I am.
sure, refer to a thing as terminated or ended
something of that sort is what I mean nothing —
complicated.
MEN. Yes, I do, and I think I grasp your meaning.
SCO. Well then, you speak of a surface, and also
—
of a solid the terms employed in geometrical
problems ?
MEX. I do.
soc. So now you are able to comprehend from all
this what I mean by figure. In every instance of
figxire I call that figure in which the sohd ends ;
and I may put that more succinctly by saying that
figure is " limit of sohd."
MEN. And what do you say of colour, Socrates ?
soc. How overbearing of you, Meno, to press an
old man with demands for answers, when you >vill
not trouble yourself to recollect and tell me what
account Gorgias gives of virtue !
MEN. WTien you have answered my question,

Socrates, I answer yours.
will
soc. One might tell even blindfolded, Meno, by
the way you discuss, that you are handsome and
still have lovers.
1 Cf. Protag. 337 a.

283
;
PLATO
MEN. Ti S-q;
2fl. "On ovSev dAA' 7] eTTirdrTeig iv rols
Xoyois' OTtep TTOLOvaiv ol rpv^covres, are rvpav-
vevovres, eos av iv wpa (Lai. /cat ap,a e/xov
C tcrcog KareyvojKas, on elpl rjrrwv rcov KaXCJv.

XO'pi'OV[xat, ovv (TOL Kal a-noKpivovjxai.
MEN. W.dvv fiev ovv ;)â/3iaat.
2n. BovXet ovp aoL Kara. Vopyiau diroKpi-

vojfxai, -^ av av fidXicrTa aKoXovdiâacs
MEN. BovXofxai- TTCJs yap ov;
2n. OvKovv Aeyere aTToppods nvas rd>v ovrwv
Kara 'E/XTreSo/cAea;
MEN. ll<f>6bpa ye.
2n. Kai TTopovs, els ovs Kal 8t' wv at aTToppoal
TTopevovrai;
MEN. YVdvv ye.
2n. Kat Tcbv aTToppoajv rag fiev dppiOTreiv
D ivLois Tcov TTopcov, TOLS 8e iXdrTovs 7] fxeiôvs
eivai;
MEN. "Eart ravra.
2n. OvKovv Kal otpiv KaXels rt;
MEN. "Eycoye.
2n. 'E/c Tovrcov Srj ^vves o rot Xeyco, e<j)-q
T{ivhapo<5. eart yap

XP'^^ aTTopporj axrip-driov
oipei avjJip.erpos Kal alaOrjTos.
MEN, "ApLord fioL boKels, c5 JjcoKpares, ravrrjv
rrjv aTTOKpLoiv elprjKevat.
2n. "laws ydp aot Kara avvt^deiav etpT^rai'
^ There something of Gorgias's stately style in the

is
definition that follows but the implication seems mainly to
;
be that the substance of it will be familiar to Meno because

284
;
MENO
MEN. Why so ?
soc. Because you invariably speak in a peremptory

tone, after the fashion of spoilt beauties, holding as
they do a despotic power so long as their bloom is
on them. You have also, I daresay, made a note of
my weakness for handsome people. So I will indulge
you, and answer.
MEN. You must certainly indulge me.
soc. Then would you like me to answer you in
the manner of Gorgias,^ which you would find easiest
to follow ?
MEN. Ishould like that, of course.

soc. Do not both of you say there are certain
effluences ^ of existent things, as Empedocles held ?
MEN. Certainly.
soc. And passages into which and through which
the effluences pass ?
MEN. To be sure.
soc. And some of the effluences fit into various
passages, while some are too small or too large ?
MEN. That is so.
soc. And further, there is what you call sight ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. So now " conceive my meaning," as Pindar'
says : colour is an effluence of figures, commensurate
with sight and sensible.
MEN. Your answer, Socrates, seems to me excel-
lently put.
soc. Yes, for I expect you find its terms familiar
he was a pupil of Gorgias, who had learnt his science from
Empedocles.
* Empedocles taught that material objects
are known to
us by means of effluences or films given off by them and
suited in various ways to our sense-organs.
» Fr. 82 (Bergk) ; c/. Aristoph. Birdg, 939.
285
,
PLATO
Kal afxa, offJLai, ivvoelg, on eôis av €^ avrrjs
etVetv /cat ^covrjv, o eari., koL oafjirjv Kal oAAa
E TToXXa Tcbv TOLOVTWV.
MEN. riaVU fl€V ovv.
2n.TpayLKT] yap iariv, c5 Mevcov, rj aTTOKpiais
ware apecKet aoi jxdXXov rj rj Trepl rod axTjixarog.
MEN. "E/xoiye.
2n. 'AAA' OVK eoTiv, c5 iral 'AAe^tSrjjLtou, (hs
iyo) ijjLavTov Treido), aAA' eKelvr] êXrlcov oifJLai.
Se oyS' av aol Soâi, el firj, (Zcnrep x^^^ eXeyes,

avayKalov ctol amevai Tcpo twv fxvarrjpiwv, dAA
et TrepLfielvaig re /cat jxvqdeL-rjs.
77 MEN. 'AAAo. av, w JjcoKpares, et

7re/>t/ieVot/x'
jLtotTToAAd roLavra Xiyois.
2n. 'AAAo, /XT^v TTpodvpbia? ye ovhev aTroAeti/'a),
/cat crou eVe/ca /cat e/jLavTOV, Xeyojv roiavTa- oAA'
OTTOJS pur] ovx Old? T ecrojLtat rroAAd roiavra Xeyeiv.
dAA' t^t St) TTeipco /cat cti) e/xot ri^t' U7rdcr;iêo-tv'
dTToSowat, Kara oAou elTTcbv dpeTrjs Trept, 6 ri eart,
/cat navaai ttoXXol ttoiojv e/c tou et'd?, OTrep âcrt
TOWS" avvTpifiovrds rt eKaarore ol aKcoTTTOvres, dAA'
B edaas oXrjv /cat vyirj etVe rt eariv dpeTiq. rd Se
ye TTapaheiypiara Trap' ip,ov eXXT](âs.
MEN. AoKel roLVVv /Ltot, 65 JlcoKpares, dperrj
eivai, Kaddnep 6 TroirjTrjs Xeyei, xp-ipeiv re KaXotai
Kal SvvacrdaL' Kal eyoj rovro Xeyco dperrjv, CTrt-
Ov/JLOvvra rwv KaXcov Svvarov etvai TTopiêadai.
211. Âpa Xeyeis rov rcov KaXcov e7nOvp,ovvra
ayaOcov eTTLdupLrjrrjv elvai;
MEN. MdAtCTrd ye.
2n. *Apa d)s ovrcDV rLvcov ot rojv KaKa>v iiri.- <
^ Perhaps from Simonides.
286
MENO
and at the same time I fancy you observe that it
enables you to tell what sound and smell are, and
numerous other things of the kind.
MEN. Certainly.
soc. It is an answer in the high poetic style,
Meno, and so more agreeable to you than that about
figure.
MEN. Yes, it is.
soc. But yet, son of Alexidemus, f am inclined
to think the other was the better of the two and
;
I believe you also would prefer it, if you were not

compelled, as you were saying yesterday, to go
away before the mysteries, and could stay awhile
and be initiated.
MEN. But I should stay, Socrates, if you would
give me many such answers.
soc. Well then, I will spare no endeavour, both
for your sake and for my own, to continue in that
style ;but I fear I may not succeed in keeping for
long on that level. But come now, you in your
turn must try and fulfil your promise by telling me
what virtue is in a general way and you must stop
;
producing a plural from the singular, as the wags

say whenever one breaks something, but leave
virtue whole and sound, and tell me what it is.
The pattern you have now got from me.
MEN. Well, in my view, Socrates, virtue is, in the
poet's words, " to rejoice in things honourable and
be able for them " ^ ; —
and that, I say, is virtue to
desire what is honourable and be able to procure it.
soc. Do you say that he who desires the honour-
able is desirous of the good ?
MEN. Certainly.
soc. Implying that there are some who desire
287
;
PLATO
irepcov Be ot rcbv dyadcov; ov Travres,
9vfxov<7LV,
C wptare, boKoval aot raJv dyadajv emdviielv
MEN. OvK e/xotye.
2X1. 'AAAa TLves Tcbv KaKcov;
MEN. Nat.
2Xi. Olofievoi rd Ka/ca dyadd eivai, Xeyeis, ^
Kol yiyvcoaKovres , ori. /ca/ca iariv, oficos ctti-
dvfiovatv avrcbv;
MEN. *AfJi(f)6T€pa €fJiOt,y€ SoKcl.
2n. *H yap So/cei tls crot, c5 Mevcov, yiyvaxTKcov
rd /ca/ca ort /ca/ca iart,v o/aoj? eTTidvpêZv avrix>v;
MEN. MaAiorra.
2n. Tt iTndvfieLV Xiyeis ; rj yeveadai avrco;
D MEN. TeveaBai' ri ydp aXXo;
2n. XVorepov -qyovfjievos rd KaKd coêAeti'
eKCLVov CO dv yevrfrai, 7] yiyvcoGKCOV rd Ka/cd otl
S dv Trapfj;
jSActTrret
MEN. Etai /Ltev ot riyovjJievoi rd KaKd (hêXelv,
elal 8e Acat ot yiyvcoaKovres on ÂctTrret.
2n. '^H /cat SoKToyat crot yiyi^djcr/cetv rd /ca/ca,
on /ca/ca iartv, ol 'qyovfievot, rd KaKd dxfieXelv;
MEN. Ov iravv [XOL So/cet rovro ye.
2n. Oj5/cow STyAov oTt ovrot p,ev ov rtov KaKcov
iTTiOvfjiovcriv, ot dyvoovvres avrd, dAAd eKeivoiv, d
E wovro dyadd etvai, eari 8e ravrd ye /ca/cd* ware
ot dyvoovvres avrd /cat olofievoi, dyadd etvai SijXov
on rcbv dyadcov eTnOvp-ovaiv rj ov;
MEN. YiivhvvevovaLV ovrol ye.
2n. Tt 8e; ot rcov KaKcov p,ev eTTidv/xovvreg,
ws (f)fjs ov, 'qyovfievoL 8e rd KaKd ^Xdrrreiv eKclvov,
<L dv ytyvrjrat, yiyvcoaKOvai SrjTTOV on ^Xa^njaovrai
VTT* avTcov;
288
MENO
the evil, and others the good ? Do not all men,
in your opinion, my dear sir, desire the good ?
MEX. I think not.
soc. There are some who desire the evil ?
MEX. Yes.
soc. Thinking the evil to be good, do you mean,
or actually recognizing it to be evil, and desiring
it nevertheless ?
MEN. Both, I believe.

soc. Do you really believe, Meno, that a man
knows the evil to be evil, and still desires it ?
MEN. Certainly.
soc. What do you mean by " desires " ? Desires
the possession of it ?
MEN, Yes ; what else could it be ?

soc. And does he think the evil benefits him who
gets it, or does he know that it harms him who
has it ?
MEN. There are some who think the evil is a
benefit, and others who know that it does harm.
soc. And, in your opinion, do those who think
the evil a benefit know that it is evil ?
MEN. I do not think that at all.
soc. Obviously those who are ignorant of the evil
do not desire it, but only what they supposed to
be good, though it is really evil ; so that those
who are ignorant of it and think it good are really
desiring the good. Is not that so ?
MEN. It would seem to be so in their case.
soc. Well now, I presume those who, as you say,
desire the evil, and consider that the evil harms him
who gets it, know that they will be harmed by it ?
289
; ; . ;
PLATO
MEN. ÂvdyKT).
78 2n. 'AAAa rovs ^Xanrofxevovs oSroi ovk oiovrat
ddXiovs elvai /ca^' oaov ^XdrrTovrai
MEN. Kai rovro dvdyKH).
2n. Toy? Se ddXiovs ov KaKoSaifiovag
MEN. Olfiat eycoye.
Sn. "Eartv ovv 00x19 jSouAerat ddXiog /cat /ca/co-
haijxtov elvai;
MEN. Ou /xot So/cet, c5 HcoKpares.
2n. Oy/c apa ôvXerac, c5 MeVwr, ra /ca/ca
ouSet?, e'lTTep fjurj ôvXerai tolovtos elvai. ri yap
dXXo icrrlv ddXiov elvai, tj emdvfieZv re twv KaKcov
/catKrdaQai;
B MEN. KtvSuveueis' diXrjdrj Xeyeiv, oJ Sco/cpare?-
/catouSet? ôvXeadat, rd /ca/ca.
2n. Ou/cow vw St) eAeye?, on earLV rj dperij
ôvXeadai re rdyadd /cat hvvaadat;
MEN. EtTTOi' ydp.
5n. Oi3/cow rou^ XexBevros ro jxev ôvXeadai
irdaiv VTrdpx^t, /cat ravrrj ye ovhev 6 erepos rod
erepov êXricxiv
MEN. OatWrat.
2n. 'AAAa SrjXov on, elirep earl êXrimv
aXXos dXXov, Kara ro hvvaadai dv etrj dfieivcDv.
MEN. Yldvv ye.
2n. Tout' eanv dpa, (Ls eoiKe, /caret rdv adv
C Adyov dperrj, Svvafiis rod rropLêadat, rdyadd.
MEN. IlavTaTraCTt jjlol So/cet, llcoKpares,
c5
ovrcos ^x^LV, cos aru vvv VTToXa/x^dveLs
2n. "IScoiJiev 8rj /cat rovro el dXrjdes Xeyeis-
io-a)s ydp dv ev Xeyois. rdyadd (f)fjs olov r eXvoL
TToplêaOai dperrjv elvai;
290
—
MENO
MEN. They needs must.
soc. But do they not hold that those who are
harmed are miserable in proportion to the harm
they suffer ?
MEN. That too must be.
soc. And are not the miserable ill-starred ?
MEN. I think so.
soc. Then is there anyone who wishes to be
miserable and ill-starred ?
MEN. I do not suppose there is, Socrates.
soc. No one, then, Meno, desires evil, if no one
desires to be such an one for what is being miserable
:
but desiring evil and obtaining it ?

MEN. It seems that what you say is true, Socrates,
and that nobody desires evil.
soc. Well now, you were saying a moment ago
that virtue is the desire and abihty for good ?
MEN. Yes, I was.
soc. One
part of the statement the desire —
belongs to our common nature, and in this respect
one man is no better than another ?
MEN. Apparently.
soc. But it is plain that if one man is not better
than another in this, he must be superior in the
ability.
MEN. Certainly.
soc. Then virtue, it seems by your account, is
ability to procure goods.
MEN. I entirely agree, Socrates, with the \iew
which you now take of the matter.
soc. Then let us see whether your statement is
true in another respect for very likely you may be
;
right. You say virtue is the ability to procure goods ?

* TOV Ast : TOVTOV M39.
291
PLATO
MEN. "Eycoye.
2fl. 'Ayaâ 8e KaXeis ov^l olov vyUidv t€ kol
ttXovtov ;
MEN. Kat p^puCTiW Aeyct) /cat apyvpiov Kraadai

Koi TLfias €v 77oAet /cat dpxds.
2n. Ml) aAA arra Aeyei? rdyaâ •^ rd roiavra;
MEN. Oy/c, dAAd TTOLVTa Xeyco rd roiavra.

D sn. Etev ;!(/oucrtov Se Si^ Kat apyvpiov TTopi-
^cadai dper'q iariv, a)s (ftrjcri Mevojv 6 rov fieyaXov
âaiXecos rrarpiKos êvos. irorepov TrpoariOeis
rovrcp rep TTopcp, c5 MeVcov, to SiKaicos /cat dcrto)?,
7] ovSev CTOt Sia(f)€pei, dXXd kov dSiKcos ris avrd

TTopi^Tjrai, ofioiojs <jv avrd dperrjv /caAet?;
MEN. Oj5 S'qTTOV, u) ^coKpares.
2n. 'AAAd KaKiav.
MEN. Hdvrojs Sr^TToy.
2n. Act dpa, <x)s eot/ce, rovrcp rep iropcp St/caio-
avvqv T] aco(j)pocrvvr]v •^ oaiorrjra Trpoaeivai, rj aXXo
E Tt popiov dperfjs' et 8e /xt^, ovk earai dper-q, /cat-
Trep eKTropiôvaa rdyaOd.
MEN. Hois' yci/D dvev rovrcov dperrj yivoir dv;
2n. To Se /xt) €K7Topi^€iv ;^pi'o-tov' /cat dpyvpiov,
orav p,rj St'/catov Ty, /xTyre aura) /iT^re dXXtp, ovk
dperrj /cat auTT^ iariv 7] diropia;
MEN. OatVerat.
2n. OuSev dpa pdXXov 6 iropos rcov roiovrcov
ayaddjv r} r] airopia dperrj dv etr^, dAAd, d)S eoiKcv,
o pikv dv fJiera SiKaioavvrjs yiyvrjrai, dper'q earai,
79 o S' dv dvev Trdvrcov rdjv roiovrcov, /ca/cia.
292
MENO
MEN. I do,
soc. And do you not mean by goods such things
as health and wealth ?
MEN. Yes, and I include the acquisition of gold
and silver, and of state honours and offices.
soc. Are there any things besides this sort, that
you class as goods ?
MEN. No, I refer only to everything of that sort.
soc. Very well : procuring gold and silver is
virtue, according to Meno, the ancestral friend of
the Great King. Tell me, do you add to such procur-
ing, Meno, that it is to be done justly and piously,
or is this indifferent to you, but even though a man
procures these things unjustly, do you call them
virtue all the same ?
MEN. Surely not, Socrates.
soc. Rather, vice.
MEN. Yes, of course.
soc. Then it seems that justice or temperance
or holiness or some other part of virtue must ac-
company the procuring of these things otherwise
;
it will not be \irtue, though it provides one with
goods.
MEN. Yes, for how, without these, could it be
virtue ?
soc. And not to procure gold and silver, when it

would be unjust —
what we call the want of such
—
things is virtue, is it not ?
MEN. Apparently.
soc. So the procuring of this sort of goods will be
no more virtue than the want of them ; but it
seems that whatever comes accompanied by justice
will be virtue, and whatever comes without any such
quality, vice.
293
;
PLATO
MEN. AoKct fioi dvayKalov etvai (I)s Aeyet?.
sn. OvKOVv rovTCov eKaurov oXiyov irporepov
fxopiov dpeTTJg eâ/xev' elvai, rrjv SiKaioavvrjv Kal
aco(f)poavvr]v /cat TTovra rd roiavra;
MEN. Nai.
2n. EiTtt, c5 M.€V(xiv, Traiêt? Trpo? /ue;
MEN. Tt 817, 60 HcoKpares
2n. "On aprt e/zou SerjdevTos aov fjirj Kar-
ayvvvat {xrjSe K€piiarit,eLv ttjv dperrjv, Kal
Sovtos
TTapaheiyiiara Kad^ d Scot dTTOKptvecrdai, tovtov
fj,€V rjfjieXrjaas, Aeyet? Se jjlol, otl dperi] icrnv olov
B t' elvai rdyadd Tropiêadai fierd SiKaioavvrjS'

TOVTO Se (f)f)s fMopiov dperfjg elvai;
MEN. "Eycoye.
2n. OvKovv cwixâivei €$ a)v av o/xoXoyets, ro
fierd fxopiov dper-qs TrpdrTCiv, o re dv TTparri],
TOVTO dpeTTjV elvai' ttjv yap SiKaioavvrjP pLopiov
elvai,, Kal eKaara roxrroiv. Tt ovv Srj
(f>fjg dpcTTJs
TOVTO Xeyoi; ore ifMOV Serjdevros oXov elvelv rqv
dperrjv, avrrjv fiev ttoXXov Set? etTretv o Tt eort,
TTaaav 8e (f)fjg
irpdîv dperrjv elvat, iavrrep fxera
C fiopiov dperrjs TTpdrrrjraL, oxnrep etpr^Kdjg o ri
dperrj eari to dXov /cat rjhrj yucoaofievov efjiov, /cat
edv av KaraKepixaTit,rjS avrrjv Kara /JLopta. Selrai

ovv aoi TrdXiv i^ dpXTjS, d>S ifiol 80/cet, tt^S" avrrjs
ipcor-qaeojg, c5 ^lAe Mevujv, ri iariv dperrj, el fierd
/jLopiov dperrjg irdoa Trpdîg dperrj av e'lrj; rovro
yap eari Xeyeiv, drav Xeyr) Tt?, OTt Trao-a rj /xera
SiKaioavvrjs irpdîs dperrj ecrriv. 'q ov 80/cet crot
ndXiv 8etcr0at T'^S' avrrjs epayrrjaeois, oAA otet Ttva

tlSevai fiopiov dperrjs 6 ti eariv, avrrjv fxrj etSora;
294
MENO
MEN. I agree that it must be as you say.
soc. And were we saying a little while ago that
each of these things was a part of virtue justice —
and temperance and the rest of them ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. And here you are, Meno, making fun of me ?
MEN. How so, Socrates ?
soc. Because after my begging you not to break
up \irtue into small change, and gi\ing you a pattern
on which you should answer, you have ignored all
this, and^ now tell me that \-irtue is the abihty to
procure good things with justice ; and this, you teU
me, is a part of virtue ?
MEN. I do.
soc. Then it follows from your own admission
that doing whatever one does with a part of \-irtue is
itself \irtue for you say that justice is a part of
;
virtue, and so is each of such quahties. You ask the

meaning of my remark. It is that after my request-
ing you to speak of virtue as a whole, you say not a
word as to what it is in itself, but tell me that every
action is virtue provided that it is done with a part
of virtue ;as though you had told me what virtue
is in the whole, and I must understand it forthwith
— when you are really sphtting it up into fragments !
I think therefore that you must face the same

question all over again, my dear Meno What is —
—
virtue ? if we are to be told that every action
accompanied by a part of virtue is virtue ; for that
is the meaning of the statement that every action
accompanied by justice is virtue. Or do you not

agree that you have to meet the same question
afresh ? Do you suppose that anyone can know a
part of virtue when he does not know virtue itself ?
295
PLATO
MEN. OvK ejxoiye So/cet.
D 2n. El yap koX [xefjivrjcrai, or eyco aoi apri
OLTTeKpivdfxrjv irepl rod
ax^P'O.ro? , aTreâAAo/xeV
TTov Trjv ToiavTTjv aTTOKptaiv rrjv Sia rchv en 1,7]-
Tovfieviov /cat [xi^ttco (hpôXoyiqixivoiv eTTLX^Lpovaaf
OLTTOKptveaOai.
MEN, Kai opdcos y€ aTTeâXXofiev, a) ^coKparcs.
Sn. M.r) TOivvv, CO dpiare, jjLTjSe av en t,rjTOV-
fxevrjs dpeTTJs oAtjs" o n eo'TLV olov Sia ra)v ravriqs
fxoplcov diTOKpivopLevos BrjXd)aei,v avrrjv orwovv, ^
E d'AAo oTLOvv TovTCo TO) avTcp TpoTTCp Xeycov, dXXd
TTaXiV ri]g avTTJs herjaeadai epcoT-qaecos, rivos
ovros dperrjg Xeyeus a Ae'yeis" t] ovhev aoi Bokoj
Xeyeiv ;
MEN. "E/xotye SoKet? opdcos Xeyeiv.
2n. ^ ATTOKpLvai roivvv ttoXlv e^ dpxyj?' tl <f)fis
dperrjv elvai Kal av /cat o eraZpo's aov;
MEN. ^Q. HcoKpares, tJkovov piev eycuye Trplv
80 /cat avyyeveaQai aoi, on av ovBev dXXo rj avros
re diTopeZs /cat Toys' aAAou? TTOieis diropeiv /cat
vvv, ws ye jLtot 8o/cet?, yorjreveis /u.e /cat âpp^drreig
/cat drexyois KareTraSeis, ware piearov avopias ye-
yovevai' koX 8o/cet? /xot TravreXcos , el Set ri /cat
aKcoi/jai, 6p,oi6raros eivai ro re etSo? rdAAa /cat
ravrrj rfj TrXareia vdpKT) rfj OaXarria. /cat yap
avrT] rov del 7rXr]aidl,ovra /cat aTrropievov vapKav

voiei' Kal av So/cets" P'Oi vvv ip,e roiovrov ri
TTeTTOirjKevai {yapKav^} dXrjdws ydp eyojye /cat
R r7]v ^v)(y]V Kal ro arofxa vapKco, Kal ovk e)(Oi o n
dTTOKpivcopiaL aoi. /catVot pivpiaKis ye Tiepi aperrjs
^ yapKav seel. Dobree.

296
—
MENO
MEN. No, I do not.
soc. And I you remember, when I
daresay
answered you a while ago about figure, how we
rejected the sort of answer that attempts to proceed
in terms which are still under inquiry and has
not yet been admitted.
AiEX. Yes, and we were right in rejecting it,
Socrates.
soc. Well then, my good sir, you must not in
your turn suppose that while the nature of virtue
as a whole is still under inquiry you will explain
it to anyone by replying in terms of its parts, or by
any other statement on the same lines : you will

only have to face the same question over again
What is this virtue, of which you are speaking all
the time ? Or do you see no force in what I say ?
MEN. I think what you say is right.
soc. Then answer me again from the beginning :
what do both you and your associate say that

virtue is ?
MEN. Socrates, I used to be told, before I began
to meet you, that yours was just a case of being
in doubt yourself and making others doubt also ;
and so now I find you are merely bewitching me
with your spells and incantations, which have reduced
me to utter perplexity. And if I am indeed to have
my jest, I consider that both in your appearance
and in other respects you are extremely like the
flat torpedo sea-fish for it benumbs anyone who
;
approaches and touches it, and something of the sort

is what I find you have done to me now. For in
truth I feel my soul and my tongue quite benumbed,
and I am at a loss what answer to give you. And
yet on countless occasions I have made abundant
297
PLATO
TrafjLTToXXovs Xoyovs etprjKa koI irpos ttoAAous", koX
TTavv €v, oj? ye ijxavTco iSoKovv vvv 8e oi)S' o ri
ecrrt ro TrapaTrav ejô) eiTretv. /<rai /x.o6 So/cet? eu
ôvXeveaOai ovk CKTrXecov ivdevhe ouS' OLTToSrjiJiCJV'
el yap feVo? eV aAATy TrdAet rotavra TTOtolg, rd^

dv COS yorjs d.7Ta^Qeirj£.
2n. liavovpyog ef, c5 MeVcav, /cat oAi'you e^-

TjiraTrjads fie.
MEN. Tt fidXiara, cu Soj/cpares";
C 2n. riyva»cr/c6o ou eveKd fxe et/cacra?.
MEN. TtVo? 817 otei;
2n. "Iva ae dvretKdaoj. eyco 8e toOto '^
otSa
7re/3t TravTojv rcov koXcov, on ^(âipovaiv et/ca^dêvoi.
AuortreAet yap auroi?* KaXai ydp, olfMac, roJv
KaXoJv /cat at euKoveg. dXX ovk avreiKdaofxai ae.
iyd) Se, et /xev rj vdpKrj avrrj vapKcoaa ovrco /cat
Tovs dXXovs TTOiet vapKav, eot/ca avrfj' et 8e /xt),
ou. 01) avTos tovs dXXovs ttolco dno-

ya/3 evTTopcbv
petv, dXXa TTavTos fJidXXov avros aTTopajv ovrojs /cat
D TOWS" aAAou? TTOLCO aTTopelv. /cat vvv Trepl dperrjs,
o eoTLV, iycb p.kv ovk otSa, av puevroL tacos Trporepov

pi€V jjSiqada rrpiv efiov dipaadaL, vvv fMevTOi opiotos
et OVK et8drt. opLcos 8e ideXco //.era aov aKetJiaadai
/cat av^rjrrjaat, 6 ri ttotg icmv.
MEN. Kat TtVa rpoTTov iC,ii)TriaeLS , co TicoKpares,
TOVTO, o p,7] olada ro Trapdrrav 6 n earn; ttoZov ydp
Sv OVK olada Trpodepievos l,r]rriaeis ; ^ on
et /cat
pLoXiara evrvôis avrut, ttcos ctarj on rovro ianv,
o av OVK rjSrjada;
298
— —
MENO
speeches on virtue to various people and very good
—
speeches they were, so I thought but now I cannot
say one word as to what it is. You are well advised,
I consider, in not voyaging or taking a trip away
from home for if you went on Uke this as a stranger
;
in any other city you would very likely be taken up

for a wizard.
see. You are a rogue, Meno, and had almost
deceived me.
MEX. How is that, Socrates ?
soc. I perceive your aim in thus comparing me.
MEN'. What was it ?
soc. That might compare you in return. One
I
thing I know about all handsome people is this
they delight in being compared to something.
They do well over it, since fine features, I suppose,
must have fine similes. But I am not for playing
your game. As for me, if the torpedo is torpid
itself while causing others to be torpid, I am like
it, but not othervvise. For it is not from any sure-
ness in myself that I cause others to doubt : it is
from being in more doubt than anyone else that I
cause doubt in others. So now, for my part, I
have no idea what virtue is, whilst you, though
perhaps you may have known before you came in
touch with me, are now as good as ignorant of it
also. But none the less I am willing to join you in
examining it and inquiring into its nature,
MEN. Why, on what lines will you look, Socrates,
for a thing of whose nature you know nothing at all ?
Pray, what sort of thing, amongst those that you know
not, will you treat us to as the object of your search ?
Or even supposing, at the best, that you hit upon it,
how will you know it is the thing you did not know ?
299
—
PLATO
2n. MavddvcD otov ôvXcl Xeyeiv, co Mevcov.
fc' opSg TOVTOV (x)s epLCTTLKOv Xoyov Kardyeis, cos ovk
apa eari ^rjrelv dvOpcoTTO) ovt€ o olSev ovre o fir)
oiSev; ovre yap dv 6 ye olhe ^rjTot' otSe ydp, kol
ovhev Set r(x> ye tolovtco ^rjrrjaecos' ovre o firj
olSev ovSe ydp olSev 6 rt, ^rjrtâeL.
"1 MEN. OvKovv /caAcD? aoi So/cei Xeyecrdai 6
Xoyos oStos, CO HcvKpares;
2n. Ovk epiOLye.
MEN. "Yi-xêts Xeyeiv 07777;
2n. Eycoye* aKrjKoa ydp dvSpcov re /cat yvvat,-
Kcov ao(f)d)v TTepl rd dela Trpay/xara

MEN. TtP'a Xoyov Xeyovrcov;
2n. AXrjOi], epLOiye SoKelv, Kal KaXou.
MEN. TiVa rovrov, /cat rtves oi Xeyovres;
2n. Ot pLev Xeyovres elai ra>v lepecov re Kal
lepeicbv oaoig pLepLeXrjKe Trepl wv pier axe ipit,ovraL
Xoyov otots" t' etvai SiSovai* Ae'yei 8e /cat HtvSapos
B /cat aAAoi TToXXol rdjv rrotrjrcov, oaoi deioi elaiv.
d he Xeyovai, ravrl eariv dXXd oKorrei, el aoi
SoKOVOLV dXrjdrj Xeyeiv. (f>aal ydp rrjv i/ivx^v
rov dvdpcoiTov etvai dOdvarov, Kal rore p,ev
reXevrav, o Srj dTroOvrjaKeiv KaXovai, rore he
TTaXiv yiyveadai, dTToXXvadai 8' ovSeTTore' Selv
Srj 8id ravra oj? oaicorara SiapcaJvaL rov ^lov
ydp dv
otCTi —
êpaeôva Troivdv TraAaiou nevdeos
heêrai, els rov vnepOev dXiov Kelvcov ivdrcp ere'C
dvBiSoL t/jvxds ttoXlv,

300
—
MENO
soc. I understand the point you would make,
Meno. Do you see what a captious argument
—
you are introducing that, forsooth, a man cannot
inquire either about what he knows or about what
he does not know ? For he cannot inquire about
what he knows, because he knows it, and in that
case is in no need of inquiry ; nor again can he
inquire about what he does not know, since he
does not know about what he is to inquire.
MEX. Now does it seem to you to be a good
argument, Socrates ?
soc. It does not.
MEN. Can you explain how not ?
soc. I can ; for I have heard from wise men and
women who told of things divine that
MEN. What was it they said ?
soc. Something true, as I thought, and admirable.
MEN. What was it ? And who were the speakers ?
soc. They were certain priests and priestesses
who have studied so as to be able to give a reasoned
account of their ministry and Pindar also and
;
many another poet of heavenly gifts. As to their

words, they are these :mark now, if you judge
them to be true. They say that the soul of man is
immortal, and at one time comes to an end, which
is called dying, and at another is bom again, but
never perishes. Consequently one ought to live
all one's Ufe in the utmost hoUness.
For from whomsoever Persephone shall accept requital

for ancient wrong,^ the souls of these she restores in the
ninth year to the upper sun again ; from them arise glorious
1 vivOoi (" afiSiction ") in mystic language means some-

thing like "fall" or "sin." These lines are probably from
one of Pindar's Jjiryes (Bergk, fr. 133).
VOL. IV L 301
PLATO
C e/c rdv âaiXrjes dyavol
/catadevei Kpanrvol ao(f)La re fj-eyiaroi
dvSpeg avôvT* } is Se rov Xolttov xpovov TJpcoes
dyvot TTpos avdpwTTOiv KaXevvrai.
"Are ovv 7} ipvxrj dddvaros re ovaa Kal TroAAa/ct?
yeyovvla, /cat ecopaKvla Kal id evddSe /cat rd
iv "AlSov Koi Trdvra ;^p7^/xaTa, ovk ecrrtv 6 ri
ov fJLeixddrjKev ware ovhev dav/jLacrrov /cat Trepl
dperrjg /cat nepl dXXcov olov re elvai avrrjv dva-
fivqadrjvai, a ye /cat Trporepov rjTTLararo. are ydp
D rrjs (j>vaeo}s aTrdcr-qs avyyevovs ovcrrjs, /cat /xe/xa-
drjKvlas rrjs 'pvx'rjs drravra, ovSev KcoXvet, ev fxovov
dvafivqadevra, o 8r] /xdOrjaLv koXovolv dvdpcoTTOL,
rdXXa Trdvra avrov dvevpeZv, edv rt? dvhpeZos fj /cat
fjLT] dTTOKdfxvr) ^TjrdJv' ro ydp ^rjrelv dpa /cat ro
fjbavddveiv dvdfivqcrcs oXov eariv. ovkovv Set
ireideadai rovrio rw epiariKw Xoyui' ovros jxev
ydp dv rjfxds dpyovg TTOi-qaeie /cat eari rots fiaXa-
Kols rdjv dvdpdiTTiov i^Sy? d/coycrat, oSe Se epya-
E (jriKOVs re /cat ^rjriqrLKovs rroieZ' co eyoj Tnarevcov
dXrjdel elvai ideXco fierd aov ^rjrelv dperrj 6 ri eariv.
MEN. Nat, c5 HcoKpares' aAAa ttcos Xiyecs
rovro, on ov p,avddvopiev, dXXd -qv KaXovfiev
uddrjcTLV dvdpLvrjais eariv; €X€is p-e rovro StSaât
cos ovrois e'xî;
2n. Kat dpri, Mevcov, on, iravovpyos
cIttov, oj
el, /cat vvv epooras ae StSaât, os ov (f)-qjXL

el exo)
82 StSap^T^v etvat dXX dvdfivrjaiv , tva Stj evdvs (f)aiv(x)-

/^tat avros e/JLavrcp rdvavria Xeycov.
MEN. Ov p,d rov Ata, cS TiCOKpares, ov Trpos

rovro ^Xeifjas eiTTov, dXX^ vtto rov edovs' dXX' e'i
^ aOôvr' Boeckh aCôvrai mss.
:
302
MENO
kings and men of splendid might and surpassing wisdom,
and for all remaining time are they called hoh' heroes
amongst mankind.
Seeing then that the soul is immortal and has been

born many times, and has beheld all things both in
this world and in the nether realms, she has acquired
knowledge of all and everj^thing ; so that it is no
wonder that she should be able to recollect all
that she knew before about virtue and other things.
For as all nature is akin, and the soul has learned all
things, there is no reason why we should not, by
—
remembering but one single thing an act which
—
men call learning discover everything else, if we
have courage and faint not in the search ; since,
it would seem, research and learning are wholly
recollection. So we must not hearken to that
captious argument : it would make us idle, and is
pleasing only to the indolent ear, whereas the other

makes us energetic and inquiring. Putting my trust
in its truth, I am ready to inquire >\ith you into the
nature of virtue.
MEX. Yes, Socrates, but what do you mean by
saying that we do not learn, and that what we call
learning is recollection ? Can you instruct me that
this is so ?
soc. I remarked just now, Meno, that you are a
rogue ; and so here you are asking if I can instruct
you, when I say there is no teaching but only
recollection: you hope that I may be caught
contradicting myself forthwith.
MEN. I assure you, Socrates, that was not my
intention ; I only spoke from habit. But if you can
303
;
PLATO
ncLg fioi €X€LS evSeiâadaL, on e;êi cucrTre/a Aeyet?,
2n. 'AAA' eoTt /Ltev ov paSiov, ofjbojg Se ideXco
TTpodvfxrjdrjvai aov eveKa. dXXd jxoi TrpoaKoXeaov

rajv TToXXaJv aKoXovdcov rovrcovl rojv cravTOV eva,
B ovTLva ôvXeL, tva ev Tovrcp crot eTriSei'fcu/xai.
MEN. ye. WdwSevpo irpoaeXde.
2n. "KXXrjV fiev ian /cat iXXrjvlêi;
MEN. Ilai^y ye a(f)68pa, oiKoyev-qs ye.
2n. Ilp6ae)(e brj rov vovv, orrorep' dv aoi <f>aLvr]-
rai, iq dvantpLvqaKoijievos rj p,avddv(x)v Trap* ifiov.

MEN. 'AAAa TTpoae^co.
2n. EtTTC St] fioi, o) TTal, yiyvcoaKeis rerpd-
yiovov )(Uipiov on tolovtov eanv;
nAi2. "Eycoye.
C 2fl. "Kariv ovv rerpdyajvov ^(ôopiov laas ^X'^^
Ttt? ypa/xpuds ravras irdaas, rerrapa^ ovaas
nAi2. Xidvv ye.
ici. Ov /cat ravraal rds 8ta jxeaov earlv laas
exov;
HAIS. Nat.
10.. OvKovv etr) dv tolovtov ycop^^^ '^^^ fielôv
Kal eXaTTOv;
nAi2. Hdvv ye.
2n. Et ovv etrj avTT] -q irXevpd Svolv ttoSolv /cat
avTT] Svotv, TToacov dv etrj ttoBcjv to oXov; SSe
8e GKonet.' el ^v TavTjj Svolv ttoSoXv, TavTj] Se evos
TToSo? flOVUV, dXXo TL UTTa^ dv "qv Svolv TToSoiV TO
XOipiov;
nAl2. Nat.
D 2n. 'ETretSi^ he hvolv rrohoiv /cat TavTTj, dXXo
TL rj his hvoZv yiyveTai;
304
MENO
somehow prove to me that it is as yoti say, pray
do so.
soc. It is no easy matter, but still I am willing
to try my
best for your sake. Just call one of your
own troop of attendants there, whichever one you
please, that he may serve for my demonstration.
MEN. Certainly. You, I say, come here.
soc. He is a Greek, I suppose, and speaks Greek ?
MEX. Oh yes, to be sure born in the house. —
soc. Now observe closely whether he strikes you
as recollecting or as learning from me.
MEN. I will.
soc. Tell me, boy, do you know that a square
figure ^
is like this ?
BOY. I do.
soc. Now, a square figure has these lines, four in
number, all equal ?
BOY. Certainly.
And these, drawn through the middle,^ are
soc.
equal too, are they not ?
BOY. Yes.
soc. And a figure of this sort may be larger or
smaller ?
BOY. To be sure.
soc. Now if this side were two feet and that also
two, how many feet would the whole be ? Or let
me put it thus if one way it were two feet, and
:
only one foot the other, of course the space would

be two feet taken once ?
BOY. Yes.
soc. But as it is two feet also on that side, it must
be twice two feet ?
^ Socrates draws in the sand.

• i.e. the middle of each side of the square.
30.5
;
PLATO
nAI2. Ftyverai.
2X1. AvoLV dpa Sis yiyverai ttoScov;
nAi2. Nat.
2n. Uoaoi ovv elalv ol Suo his TToSes; Xoyi-
adjxevos eliri.
nAl2. Terr apes, a> ^coKpares.

2n. OvKovv yevoir' dv rovrov rov ^cupiou
erepov SiTrXdaiov, rotovrov Se, teas' e;\;ot' Trdaas
rds ypa/jL/jLas cSaTrep rovro;
nAi2. Nat.
2n. IToCTcoi/ oi;j/ earai 77o8ct>v;
nAi2. 'O/cTO).
2n. Oepe hrj, Treipdj p,OL eliTelv ttt^Xikt] ris earai
E e/cetVou T^ ypa^jjbrj eKdarrj. rj pLcv yap rovSe Svotv
TToSoLV ri Se rj €K€lvov rov hnrXaaiov
nAi2. A-Âov hrj, (L HcoKpares, ore StTrAaata.
2n. Opas, c5 Mevcuv, co? eyco rovrov ovSev
OLoaaKO), dAA' epcordj irdvra; /cat I'w ouro? oterat
etSei'at, onota iarlv d(f}' tjs ro oKrcjirovv xixjpiov
yevqaerai' •^ ou So/cet aoi;

MEN. "EjLtoiye.
20. OtSev ow;
MEN. Ov Sfjra.
Oterat 8e ye avro r^? StTrAacrta?;
2n.
MEN. Nat.
2n. ©ecD St) avrov dvafXLfjbVTjoKOfxevov €(f)€^rjs,
d)S Set avafxifJivtâKeadaL. av Se //.ot Aeyc (ztto
83 TT^S StTrAacrta? ypap.ixrjs (f>rjs ro StTrActcrtoj^ )((joplov
ylyveadai; roiovSe Xeyco, fir} ravrrj pukv fxaKpov,
rfj Se ^pax", dXXd 'laov -navraxj] earco djairep rovri,
306
MENO
BOY. It is.
soc. Then the space is twice two feet ?

BOY. Yes.
soc. Well, how many are twice two feet ? Count
and tell me.
BOY. Four, Socrates.
soc. And might there not be another figure twice
the size of this, but of the same sort, with all its sides
equal like this one ?
BOY. Yes.
soc. Then how many feet will it be ?
BOY. Eight.
soc. Come now, try and tell me how long will
each side of that figure be. This one is two feet
long :what will be the side of the other, which is
double in size ?
BOY. Clearly, Socrates, double.
soc. Do you observe, Meno, that I am not teach-
ing the boy anything, but merely asking him each
time ? And now he supposes that he knows about
the hne required to make a figure of eight square
feet ; or do you not think he does }
MEN. I do.
soc. Well, does he know ?
MEN. Certainly not.
soc. He just supposes it, from the double size
required ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. Now watch his progress in recollecting, by
the proper use of memory. Tell me, boy, do you
say we get the double space from the double line ?
The space I speak of is not long one way and short
the other, but must be equal each way hke this one,
307
; ;
PLATO
StTrAacriov Se rovrov, oktcottovv aAA opa, et ert
CTOt OLTTO rrjs StTrAacria? So/cet eaeadat.
nAi2. "EjMoiye.
2n. Ot5/cow StTrAacrta auxT^ ravriqs yiyverai,
av irepav rocravTrjv TrpoaOM/Jiev ivdevSe;
nAi2. Oavu ye.
2n. 'Atto ravrt]?
Stj,
^J^?, ecrrai to oKTOiTTOvv
av rerrapeg roaavraL yevcovrai;
)(copi.ov,
nAi2. Nat.
B 2n. ÂvaypaifjcopieOa Sr] a.'n avrrjs taag rer-
rapas. aAAo rt, rj tovtI dv etrj o (f)7js to oktcottovv
etvai;
nAi2. Wdw ye.
2n. €V aVTU> eCTTt TOVtI T€TTapa, OiV
OvKOVV
CKaaTOV taov tovtco eoTi tco TeTpaTToSi;
nAi2. Nat.
2n. Yloaov ovv ytyverai; ov tctpolkls tooov-
Tov;
nAi2. ricD? S' ov;
2n. AnrXdaiov ovv eVrt to TCTpaKis tooovtov;
nAl2. Ov (Jid Aia.
2n. *AAAa TToaaTrXdaiov
nAI2. Ter/jaTrAacrtov.
C 2X1. tt^? StTzAaata? apa, tS Trai, ov
'Atto Si-
TrAaatov dAAa TeTpaTrXdcriov yiyveTai )(UipLOV.
nAI2. 'AXrjdrj Aeyet?.
2n. TiTTapa^v yap Terpa/cts' eCTTiv eKKalSeKa.
ovxi;
nAi2. Nat.
2n. *0ktco7tovv S' ttTTo TTOtaj ypafifirjg; ovxl
OLTTO fj,€V TavT7]s T€Tpa7rXaaiov
nAi2. ^rj/JiL
308
MENO
—
while being double its size eight square feet. Now
see if you still think we get this from a double length
of line.
BOY. I do.
soc. Well, this line is doubled, if we add here
another of the same length ?
BOY. Certainly.
soc. And you say we shall get our eight-foot space
from four lines of this length ?
BOY. Yes.
soc. Then let us describe the square, drawing
four equal lines of that length. This will be what
you say is the eight-foot figure, will it not ?
BOY. Certainly.
soc. And here, contained in it, have we not four
squares, each of which is equal to this space of four
feet?
BOY, Yes.
soc. Then how large is the whole ? Four times
that space, is it not ?
BOY. It must be.
soc. And is four times equal to double ?
BOY. No, to be sure.
soc. But how much is it ?
BOY. Fourfold.
soc. Thus, from the double-sized line, boy, we get
a space, not of double, but of fourfold size.
BOY. That is true.
soc. And if it is four times four it is sixteen, is it
not ?
BOY. Yes.
soc. What line will give us a space of eight feet ?
This one gives us a fourfold space, does it not ?
BOY. It does.
VOL. IV L 2 309
.
PLATO
2n. TerpaTTOvv Se drro rrj? rjfjiLcreas ravT7]al
Tovri;
DAIS. Nat.
'ZCl. "EileV TO 8e OKTCOTTOVV OV TOvSe fJ,€V 8l-
irXdaiov iaTL, tovtov Se rjixiav;
nAl2. <Nat>^.
2n. OvK ttTTo fjiev ixeitjOvos earai iq roaavrrjg
D ypo-iJ-fJirjs , ttTTO eAciTTOvos 8e ^ roarjaSi; •^ ou;
nAi2. "EjLiotye So/cet ovtcos.

2n. KaAcDs" TO ya/3 ctoi So/cow tovto aTTOKpivov
Kai jJLOL Aeye* ou;)^ rjSe jxev Svotv TToholv -qv, 'q he
reTTapojv ;
nAi2. Nat,
2n. Act apa Tf]v rov oktcottoSos ;â)ptou
ypafxixTjv pL€it,cxj fxev etvai rijabe rrjs SlttoSos,
iXoLTTOi Se Trjs TerpcxTToSos.
nAi2. Aet.
E 2n. UcLpco 8'q Xeyetv vtjXlktjv tlvo, (f)fjs avrrjv
elvai.
nAi2. T/otTToSa,
. 2n. OvKovv dvnep rpiTTOVs fj,
ro -fjniav ravrrjs
TTpoaXrjifjojJLeOa Kal hvo {xev yap
ecrrai rpi-nov?;
otSe, o 8e els' /cat ivOevhe coaavrcos Svo fxev oiSe,
d 8e ets" /cat yiyverai tovto to ^(^(opLOV o (j>rJ9'
nAl2. Nat.
2n. OvKovv dv f) TrjSe Tpicov Kal TrjSe Tpicbv, to
oXov x<^Pôv Tpicbv Tpls TToScjv yiyveTai;
nAi2. OatVerat.
2n. Tpet? Se Tpls TToaot elal ttoScs;
hais. 'Eiê'a.
2n. 'ESet Se TO SinXdaLov Ttoaoiv elvai ttoScov;
^ Nai ora. MS3.
310
MENO
soc. And
a space of four feet is made from this
line of halfthe length ?
BOY. Yes.
soc. Very well ; and is not a space of eight feet
double the size of this one, and half the size of this
other ?
BOY. Yes.
soc. Will it not be made from a line longer than
the one of these, and shorter than the other ?
BOY. I think so.
soc. Excellent always answer just what you
:
think. Now tell me, did we not draw this Une two
feet, and that four ?
BOY. Yes.
soc. Then the line on the side of the eight-foot
figure should be more than this of two feet, and
less than the other of four ?
BOY. It should.
soc. Try and tell me how much you would say it is.
BOY. Three feet.
soc. Then if it is to be three feet, we shall add
on a half to this one, and so make it three feet ?
For here we have two, and here one more, and so
again on that side there are two, and another one ;
and that makes the figure of which you speak.
BOY. Yes.
Now if it be three this way and three that
soc.
way, the whole space will be thrice three feet, will
it not ?
BOY. So it seems.
soc. And thrice three feet are how many ?
BOY. Nine.
soc. And how many feet was that double one to
be?
311
;
PLATO
riAis. Oktcx).
2n. Oi5S' apa OLTTO ttjs rpiTToSos ttco to oktojttovp
XiopLOV yiyverai.
riAIS. Ov Brjra.
2n. 'AAA' dvo TToias ; Treipco rjfitv eLTretv aKpi-
64 fiws' Kal el firj ôvXei dpiOfMelv, oAAa Selôv (xtto
TTolas.
nAl2. 'AAAct fxd rov Ata, a> JlcoKpares, eycuye
OVK otSa.
2n. 'Ewoet? OLV, c5 MeVcoi/, ov iarlv rjSr) âhil,(x)V
oSe Tov dvapîpLvrjaKeadai; on ro fiev irpoiTOV
^Sei pikv ov, rj tis" eariv rj rov oKr(x)TToSos ;âj/3tou
ojanep ouSe vvv ttoj otSev, oAA' o^ aiero y
ypajxpLTi,
avTTjv t6t€ elSevai,, /cat dappaXeojs aTreKpivero cu?
elScos, Kal ovx rjyetro aTTopeiv vvv 8e rjyeLraL
aTTopetv '^Stj, Kal warrep ovk olSev, ovS oterai
B eiSeVai.
MEN. ÂXrjOfj Aeyei?.
2n. OwKow i^w êXriov exî rrepl to TTpdyfia o
OVK rjSeL;
MEN. Kat TOVrO fXOL SoKcl.
2n. Ârropelv ovv avrov TTonâavres Kai vapKav
oiOTTep 7] vdpKTj, fidJv TL i^Xdifiaficv
MEN. Ovk ejJLOiye hoKeZ.
2n. Ylpovpyov yovv tl TreTTOiT^Kafiev, co? colkc,
TTpos TO iêvpelv otttj ex^c vvv pêv yap /cat t,rjTrj-
aeiev dv rjSecos ovk elScos, Tore Se pahicos dv Kat
TTpos TToXXovs Kal TroAAa/ct? ip€T* dv €v Xeyeiv Trepl
C TOV hnrXaaiov ;â)/3toy, cu? Set SiTrAaaiav n^v ypap,-
flTjV €X€VV fJ.'qKei.
312
MENO
BOY. Eight.
soc. So we fail to get our eight-foot figure from
this three-foot line.
BOY. Yes, indeed.
soc. But from what line shall we get it ? Try
and tell and if you would rather not
ns exactly ;
reckon it out, just show what line it is.

BOY. Well, on my word, Socrates, I for one do
not know.
soc. There now, Meno, do you observe what
progress he has already made in his recollection ?
At first he did not know what is the line that forms
the figure of eight feet, and he does not know even
now : but at any rate he thought he knew then,
and confidently answered as though he knew, and
was aware of no difficulty ; whereas now he feels the
difficulty he is in, and besides not knowing does not
think he knows.
MEN. That is true.
soc. And he not better
is off in respect of the
matter which he did not know ?
MEN. I think that too is so.

soc. Now, by causing him to doubt and giving
him the torpedo's shock, have we done him any
harm ?
MEN. I think not.
soc. And we have certainly given him some
assistance, would seem, towards finding out the
it
truth of the matter for now he will push on in the
:
search gladly, as lacking knowledge whereas then ;
he would have been only too ready to suppose he

was right in saying, before any number of people
any number of times, that the double space must
have a Une of double the length for its side.
SIS
;;
PLATO
MEN. "Eoi/cev.
2Xi. Otet ovv dv avTov Trporepov eTn-)(<eiprjaai
tjiTeZv ri fiavddveiv tovto, o a>eTO elSevai ovk

etScas", TTplv els aTTopiav KareTreaev rjyrjadiJ.evos fi^
etSeVat, /cat eTTodrjae ro etSeVat;
MEN. Ov fxoi SoK€L, CO TicvKpares*

5il. 'Q.vrjTO dpa vapKiqaas
MEN. Ao/cei /xot.
2n. TiKeipai Srj e/c ravr-qs ri]s aTTopias o tl /cat
dyevpriaei t,T]ru)v pêr ip.ov, ovhev dAA' -^ ipcoTwvTOS

D e/zou /cat ou StSdaKOVTOS' ^vAarrc 8e av ttou
€vpr)s fx,e StSacr/covra /cat Sieîovra avrco, dX\d

fjLrj rds rovTOV Soâs dvepcorcovra.
Aeye ydp /xot cru' ov to fxev TeTparrovu tovto
rj[xXv e'cTTi ;!^6u/3toi/; pâvddveis
nAi2. *'Eya>ye.
2n. "Y/repov 8e aura) TrpoaOelfiev dv tovtl
taov;
riAiS. Nat.
2X1. Kat TpiTov ToSe iffoi' cKaTepcp tovtcov;
nAi2. Nat.
2n. Oi)/cow 7TpoaavaTTXr]p(jDaalp,€d^ dv to iv
Tjj ycovia roSe;
nAi2. Hdw ye.

2n. "AAAo Tt out' yivoiT dv TeTTapa laa xaypia
TdSe;
E nAi2. Nat.
314
MENO
MEN. It seems so.
soc. Now do you imagine he would have attempted
to inquire or leam what he thought he knew, when
he did not know it, until he had been reduced to the
perplexity of realizing that he did not know, and had

felt a craving to know ?
MEN. I think not, Socrates.
soc. Then the torpedo's shock was of advantage
to him ?
MEN. I think so.

soc. Now you
should note how, as a result of this
perplexity, he will go on and discover something by
joint inquiry with me, while I merely ask questions
and do not teach him ; and be on the watch to see
if at any point you find me teaching him or ex-
pounding to him, instead of questioning him on his
opinions.
Tell me, boy : here we have a square of four feet,^
have we not ? You understand ?
BOY. Yes.
soc. And here we add another square ^ equal to it ?
Bov. Yes.
soc. And here a third,^ equal to either of them ?
BOV. Yes.
soc. Now shall we fill up this vacant space * in the
comer ?
BOY. By all means.
soc. So here we must have four equal spaces ?
BOY. Yes.
m »
»
ABCD.
CHGF.
« DCFE.
BIHC.
315
; ;
PLATO
sn. Ti ovv; TO oXov ToSe iroaaTrXaaiov touSc
yiyverai;
nAi2. TeTpanXdaiov.
2n. "ESet 8e Si.7rXdaiov 'qfilv yeviadai' ^ ov
nAi2. Yidvv ye.

2n. OvKovv icTLV avni) ypafXfM-r) e/c yojvias els
85 ycoi'tai' Teivovaa, refivovaa Slxcl eKaarov tovtcov tcov
Xcopicov;
nAl2. Nat.
2ri. OvKovv rerrapes avrac yiyvomai ypafifjuai
taaL, TTepiexovaaL rourl to x^^Pôv;
nAi2. TiyvovTat yap.
2n. JjKOTTet, St^' TTTjXlKOV tL eOTL TOVTO TO
XOipiov;
nAl2. Ov fxavdavo).
2n. Ovxji TeTTapcov ovtcov tovtojv -rjfiLav Iko.-
OTov eKaarrj -q ypafifjirj d7TOT€Tfir]Kev evTos; t] ov;
nAI2. Nat.
2n. Hocra ovv T7]XtKavTa iv tovtco evecmv;
nAi2. TeVrapa.
2n. Hocra Se ev TwBe;
nAi2. Avo.
2fl. Ta Se TCTTapa tolv Svolv tl eoTiv;
nAi2. AtTrAacTta.
B 2Xi. ToSe ouv TToadTTOvv yiyveTai;
nAl2. Ôktcottovv.
2n. 'Atto TToias ypap,p,rjs
nAi2. 'Atto Tavrrjs.
2n. 'Atto ri^? e/< ycovias els ycovlav TCLVovcrqs
Tov TeTpd-nohos
nAi2. Nat.
316
MENO
soc. Well now, how many times larger is this
whole space than this other ?
BOY. Four times.
soc. But it was to have been only twice, you
remember ?
BOY. To be sure,
soc. And does this line,i drawn from comer to
corner, cut in two each of these spaces }
BOY. Yes.
soc. And have we here four equal lines ' contain-
ing this space ^ ?
BOY. We have.
soc. Now consider how large this space ^ is.
BOY. I do not understand.
soc. Has not each of the inside lines cut off half
of each of these four spaces ?
BOY. Yes.
soc. And how many spaces of that size are there
in this part ?
BOY. Four.
soc. And how many in this * ?
BOY. Two.
soc. And four is how many times two ?
BOY. Twice.
soc. And how many feet is this space ^ ?
BOY. Eight feet.
soc. From what line do we get this figure ?
BOY. From this.
soc. From the line drawn comer-wise across the
four-foot figure ?
BOY. Yes.
» BD. » BD, DF, FH. HB. » BDFH.

* ABCD. • BDFH.
817
; ;
PLATO
2n. KaAoucrt 8e ye ravT-qv Siafxerpov ol ao(f)i-
arai' ojctt et ravrr) hiajxerpo's ovo/jia, airo ttjs
Siafji€Tpov dv, (hs (TV </>J]S, CO Ttal Meron'os", yiyvoir'
av TO SlttXolglov )(iopiov.
nAi5. Udvv fxkv ovv, cS Hd)KpaT€S-
2n. Tt aoL SoK€L, c5 Mevojv; eomv rjvTLva Soâv
ovx avTov ovTOs aTTeKpivaro
C MEN. OvK, aAA' iavrov.
2n. Kat )u,i7i' oy/c ^8et ye, cl>? eâ/zev' oAtyoi'
Trpore/ooi'.
MEN. ÂXrjdrj Aeyets".
2n. 'Ei'Tycrav Se ye aura) aSrat at Sofat* ^ ou;
MEN. Nat.
2n. la> oy/c etoort apa Trepi cuv ar /lit) etOT^
evetcriv dXr)6€LS Soât 7re/)t rovrcov <ov ovk otSev;

MEN. OatVerat.
2n. Kat vw jueV ye avro) warrep ovap dprt,
dvaK€KiVT]VTai ai Soâi awraf et Se avrov rt?
dvepTâerai TroAAa/ct? to, aura ravra /cat TToXXaxJ],
olad^ OTL reXevTcbv ovhevos ^rrov dKpL^cjs eVi-
D CTTTâerat 7re/ot toutcov.
MEN. "Eot/cev.
2fl. Oj5/cow ouSevo? SiSaâvTO? dAA' ipiorrjaav-
Tos eTTLarrjaerai, dvaXa^cbv avros ef aurou Tqv
eTnaTr]pLT]v
MEN. Nat.
2n. To Se dvaXafjL^dv€Lv avrov iv avrcp eTnarr]-
ixrjv OVK dvafxipLvrjaKeadai iartv;
MEN. Udvv ye.
2n. *Ap' ovv ov ry]v iTTiarrjpi,riv , tjv vvv ovtos
e;(et, rjTOi eAape ttotc t] aei ei;êi'
MEN. Nat.
318
MENO
soc. The professors call it the diagonal :so if the
diagonal is its name, then according to you, Meno's
boy, the double space is the square of the diagonal.
BOY. Yes, certainly it is, Socrates.
soc. What do you think, Meno ? Was there any
opinion that he did not give as an answer of his
own thought ?
MEN. No, they were all his own.

soc. But you see, he did not know, as we were
saying a while since.
MEN. That is true.
soc. Yet he had in him these opinions, had he
not?
MEN. Yes.
soc. So that he who does not know about any
matters, whatever they be, may have true opinions
on such matters, about which he knows nothing ?
MEN. Apparently.
soc. And at this moment those opinions have just
been stirred up in him, like a dream but if he were
;
repeatedly asked these same questions in a variety

of forms, you know he will have in the end as exact
an understanding of them as anyone.
MEN. So it seems.
soc. Without anyone having taught him, and only
through questions put to him, he will understand,
recovering the knowledge out of himself ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. And is not this recovery of knowledge, in
himself and by himself, recollection ?
MEN. Certainly.
soc. And must he not have either once acquired
or always had the knowledge he now has ?
MEN. Yes.
319
; ;
PLATO
2n. OvKovv ad /cat ^v linarri-
€1 jxev ad ctxev,
fjLcov ovk av ev ye rep vvv îo)
el 8e eAajSe ttotc,
E elXr]<f)cbs eX-q. rj SeStSaxe ris tovtov yecoiierpetv
ovrog yap TTOiiquei -nepl TTaarjS yecofierpLa? ravra
ravra, /cat rcoi' dXXcov fxadrjixdrcov a-navrcDV.
ear IV ovv octti? tovtov vravra SeSt'Saxe; St/cato?
yap 7TOV el etSeVat, aAAa>? re eTreihr] ev Tjj afj olklo.
yeyove /cat TedparrTai.
MEN. 'AAA' otSa eycoye oti. ovSelg irioTTOTe
eSiSaêv.
2n. "Eêt 8e TavTag to,? So'la?, "^ ovxt-;
MEN. 'Avay/crj, c5 Sto/cpare?, âtverat.

2n. Et 8e /XT7 eV Tot vw jSt'o; XaôiV, ovk TJSrj
86 TOUTO STyAov, OTt e'l^ aAAco TW't XP^'^'f' ^*X^ '^^'
epLefxad-qKei;
MEN. OatVcrai.
5n. Ou/cow ouTo? ye eartv o XP°^°^> °^' °"'^ '^*'
dvdpcoTTos ;
MEN. Nai.
sn. Et oui/ ov t' av* ri vpwoi^ /cat ov av firj ^
avupcoTTog, eveaovrai avrtp aAiqveLS oog-atj. at epajT-q-
aei eTTeyepdelaai e-maTijfMaL yiyvovTai, dp' ovv rov
del [xep,ad7]KVLa eWat ri ifjvxr) avjov;
XP^^°^ ^
hrjXov yap on tov TrdvTa xP^vov eoTLV rj ovk eaTiv

dvdpCOTTOS.
MEN. OatVerat.
2n. OvKovv el del rj dX-qdeia r]fxlv rdjv ovtojv
B earlv ev rfj ^vxf}, dddvaTOS av rj tfjvxr]^ îr], ware

dappovvTaxPV' ^
eaTLV o
M
rvyxdveis eTTtaTafievos vvv,
ixeixviqp.evog , eTTixîpeiv t,r]Telv
TOVTO S' p,rj
Kal dvapLiixvqaKeadai
1 6v t' ftv Baiter : Srav, or &u Mss.
320
MENO
soc. Now if he always had it, he was always in
a state of knowing and if he acquired it at some
;
time, he could not have acquired it in this life.

Or has someone taught him geometry ? You see,
he can do the same as this ^vith all geometry and
every branch of knowledge. Now, can anyone have
taught him all this ? You ought surely to know,
especially as he was born and bred in your house.
MEN. Well, I know that no one has ever taught
him.
soc. And has he these opinions, or has he not ?
MEN. He must have them, Socrates, evidently.
soc. And if he did not acquire them in this present
life, is it not obvious at once that he had them and
learnt them during some other time ?

MEN. Apparently.
soc. And this must have been the time when he
was not a human being ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. So if in both of these periods —
when he was
—
and was not a human being he has had true opinions
in him which have only to be awakened by question-
ing to become knowledge, his soul must have had
this cognisance throughout all time ? For clearly
he has always either been or not been a human being.
MEN. Evidently.
soc. And if the truth of all things that are is
always in our soul, then the soul must be immortal ;
so that you should take heart and, whatever you do
—
not happen to know at present that is, what you
do not remember— you must endeavour to search
out and recollect ?
321
PLATO
MEN. Eu fjLoi 8oK€LS Xeyeiv, w TicoKpares, ovk
ofS' OTTCOS.
2n. Kat yap iyui ifj-oi, a) MercDV. Kal ra fxeu
ye dXXa ovk av ttolvv virep rov Xoyov Buaxvpiaaiix-qv
OTL 8' ol6p.€Voi Seti' ^rjTCLV, d p,rj rt? otSe, ^cXtlovs
dv elixGV /cat avhpiKOirepoi, Kal rjTTov apyoi rj ei
oloLfieda, d /x-jy eTnaTOLfieOa, Svvarov eivat

jJirjSe
C evpetv jLtT^Se Selv ^rjTetv, Trepl rovrov irdw dv 8ia-

[xaxoifXTjv, el otos re etrjv, /cat Xoyo) /cat kpycp.
MEN. Kat TOVTO fiev ye So/cet? /not eiJ Aeyeiv', o)
Sco/cpare?.
2n. BouAet 051/, eTTeiSri ofjiovooOfxev, otl ^rj-
TTjreov TTepl ov fjL-q ns oiSev, ^TTixîprjaoipiev Kotvfj

l,r)Tslv tL ttot* ear IV dperrj;
MEN. Wdvv fxev ovv. ov ixevTOL, & JjivKpares,
aAA' eycoye eKeZvo dv T^Stcrra, oirep 7]p6p,r]v ro
TTpu)TOV, /cat aKeipaifjLrjv /cat aKovaaipn, TTorepov
cos StSa/cTo) ovTL avro) Set iTTtx^Lpelv, ^ cos (f>vaeL
D rj cos TiVi TTore rpoTTCp TTapayiyvojxevrjs rots dvOpco-
TTOLS rrjs dperrjs.
2n. 'AAA' el fJbev eyco rjpxov, u) M.evcov, jxr]
[xovov ifxavrov dXXd /cat aov, ovk dv iaKeipdjJLeoa

TTporepov etre StSa/crov etre ov StSa/cror rj apertj,
TTplv 6 Tt ear I Trpcorov el,rirrjaa}xev avro' eTreihrj oe
av aavrov fxev ouS' eTrtxeipeis apx^t-v, tva Siy
eXevdepos '§s, ifxov Se eTTixetpels re dpxîv /cat
dpxîs, avyxojp-qaofxai aov ri yap XPV rroielv;
E eoiKev odv aKenreov etvai, votov ri eariv d ix-qnoi
' Socrates characteristically pretends to be at the mercy

of the wayward young man.
322
—
MENO
MEN. What you say commends itself to me,
Socrates, I know not how.
soc. And so it does to me, Meno. Most of the
points I have made in support of my argument are
not such as I can confidently assert ; but that the
belief in the duty of inquiring after what we do not
know will make us better and braver and less help-
less than the notion that there is not even a possi-
bility of discovering what we do not know, nor any
—
duty of inquiring after it this is a point for which
I am determined to do battle, so far as I am able,
both in word and deed.
MEN. There also I consider that you speak aright,
Socrates.
soc. Then since we are of one mind as to the duty
of inquiring into what one does not know, do you
agree to our attempting a joint inquiry into the
nature of virtue ?
MEN. By all means. But still, Socrates, for my
part I Avould Uke best of all to examine that question
I asked at first, and hear your view as to whether
in pursuing it we are to regard it as a thing to be
taught, or as a gift of nature to mankind, or as
arriving to them in some other way which I should
be glad to know.
soc. Had I control over you, Meno, as over
myself, we should not have begun considering
whether virtue can or cannot be taught until we
had first inquired into the main question of what
it is. But as you do not so much as attempt to
—
control yourself you are so fond of your liberty
and both attempt and hold control over me,^ I will
—
yield to your request what else am I to do ? So
it seems we are to consider what sort of thing it is of
323
PLATO
tafiev 6 Ti. eariv. el fxt] tl ovv aXXa a/xcKpov ye
fioL rrjs o-pxrjs xctActcrov, /cat avyxioprjaov e'f vtto-
Oeaecos avro aKOTreladat, etre StSa/crov eariv eire
OTTOjaovv. Xeyco 8e to i^ VTTodeaeoJS c58e, axnrep
OL yeojfxerpai, TroAAa/cts' OKOTTovvrai, cTretSar ti?
eprjTai avTovs, otov Trepl ;)(CL>/5toy, et otdt' re ej
87 Tovhe Tov kvkXov roSe to x^Pôv Tpiyoivov ev-

Tadrjvai, eiTTOt av rt? otl ovrroi ot'Sa et eart tovto
TOLOVTOV, dAA' oiairep p.ev Tiva VTTodeaiv rrpovpyov
oi/xat ^X^'-^ npos to Trpdy/Jia roi,dvSe. el p,iv
eoTL tovto to ;^w/^lO^' tolovtov, olov rrapa ttjv
hodetaav avrov ypafifirjv TrapaTeivavTa eXXetTreiv
ToiovTcp x^P^V> oôv dv avTo to TTapaTera/xevov
^, aAAo Tl avpLâiveiv p,OL So/cet, /cat dXXo av, el
dSvvaTov ecTTt Taiha Tradelv VTrodefxevos oSv

edeXo) elTTelv aoL to ovfjiâlvov Trepl ttjs evTaaeco^
B avTOV els TOV kvkXov, etre dSvvaTov etre p,-q.
OVTU) 8r] /cat Trept. apeTTJs rjfiets, eTTeihr) ovk tapiev
ovd' 6 TL icTTLV ovd^ OTToZov Tl, V7To9ep.evoi aVTO
OKOTTcopLev etre StSa/cror etre ov StSa/crov earii/,
cSSe XeyovTes' el ttoIov tl eaTi tcov Trepl ttjv
*P^XW ^VTCov dpeTiq, hihaKTov dv eir] ^ ov StSa/croj/;
rrpcvTOV pev el eoTiv dXXolov rj olov eTTiaTijpi'n,
324
—
MENO
which we do not yet know what it is ! Well, the
least you can do is to relax just a little of your
authority, and allow the question —whether virtue
comes by teaching or some other way to be —
examined by means of h}ôthesis. I mean by hypo-
thesis what the geometricians often do in deaUng
with a question put to them ;for example, whether
a certain area is capable of being inscribed as a
triangular space in a given circle : they reply
" I cannot yet tell whether it has that capability
;
but I think, if I may put it so, that I have a certain

helpful hypothesis for the problem, and it is as
follows : If this area ^ is such that when you apply
it to the given line ^ of the circle you find it falls
short ^ by a space similar to that which you have

just applied, then I take it you have one conse-
quence, and if it is impossible for it to fall so, then
some other. Accordingly I wish to put a hypothesis,
before I state our conclusion as regards inscribing
this figure in the circle by saying whether it is im-
possible or not." In the same way with regard to our
question about virtue, since we do not know either
what it is or what kind of thing it may be, we had
best make use of a hypothesis in considering whether
it can be taught or not, as thus what kind of thing
:
must virtue be in the class of mental properties, so

as to be teachable or not ? In
^ the first place, if it is something
' The problem seems to be that

of inscribing in a circle a triangle
(BDG) equal in area to a given
rectangle (ABCD).
2 i.e. the diameter (BF).
' i.e. falls short of the rectangle on
the diameter (ABFE).

325
.
PLATO
S,pa 8i8a/CTOv -^ ov, t] o vvv St] iXeyojJLev, dvafxvrjaTov
hta(f)€p€Ta) Be fxrjSev rj/jLiv oTTorepco av ra> ovofxaTi
C ;^pajju-eâ* aXX dpa SiSaKTov; 'q rovro ye Travri
BrjXov, on ovhev aAAo StSaa/cerat dvdpojiros t]
iTTLcrrrjfxrjV ;
MEN. "E/Ltotye So/cei.

2n. Et 8e y' ecrrtt' eTnarrj^T] tls rj dper'q, SfjXov
on SiSaKTov av eLt].
MEN. licjs yap ov;
2n. ToTjTOV fjiev dpa raxv dTrrjXXdyfxeOa, on
TOiouSe fJiev ovros hihaKTOv , roiovSe S ov.
MEN, Haw ye.
2n. To Srj fierd tovto, to? colkc, Set aKeipaadai,
TTorepov iariv eTnoT'qfnj rj dperr) iq dôlov eTTi-
aTrjpir]£.
D MEN. "E/xoiye hoKeZ tovto [jceTa tovto aKeiTTeov
elvai.
2n. Tt Se 817; aAAo Tt ^ dyaôr ayrd (fja/xev
elvai TTjV dpeT-qv, Kal awTT^ 17 VTTodeai'S fMevei rjfXLV,

dyadov avTo elvai;
MEN. ndvu jLtev oui/.
2n. OuKow et fxev ecmv dyadov /cat dAAo
tl
XOJptôpêvov eTTLaTrjixris , Ta^ dv etr, rj dpeTiq ovk
eTnaTTjfMT] tis' et 8e fxrjSev eoTW dyadov, o ovk
iTTLOT-^fXTj TTepteX^l, eTTLOTTjliriV dv TLV aVTO VTT-
OTTTevovTe^ eXvai opddj? inroTTTevoifxev
MEN. "EoTt TavTa.
2fi. Kat jjbrjv dpeTjj y iafxev dyaOol;
MEN. Nat.
E sn. Et Se dyadoi, ciê'Ai/iOf TravTa yap dyadd
cuêAt/xa. ov-)(i;
MEN. Nat.
326
MENO
dissimilar or similar to knowledge, is it taught or
—
not or, as we were saying just now, remembered ?
Let us have no disputing about the choice of a name :
is it taught ? Or Is not this fact plain to everyone

— that the one and only thing taught to men is
knowledge ?
MEN. I agree to that.
soc. Then if virtue is a kind of knowledge, clearly
it must be taught ?
MEX. Certainly.
soc. So you see we have made short work of this
—
question if virtue belongs to one class of things it
is teachable, and if to another, it is not.
MEN. To be sure.
soc. The next question, it would seem, that we
have to consider is whether virtue is knowledge,
or of another kind than knowledge.
MEN. I should say that is the next thing we have
to consider.
soc. Well now, surely we call virtue a good thing,
do we not, and our hypothesis stands, that it is
good ?
MEN. Certainly we do.
soc. Then if theresome good apart and separable
is
from knowledge, it may be that virtue is not a kind

of knowledge but if there is nothing good that is
;
not embraced by knowledge, our suspicion that

virtue is a kind of knowledge would be well founded.
MEN. Quite so.
soc. Now it is by virtue that we are good ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. And if good, profitable for all good things
;
are profitable, are they not ?

MEN. Yes.
327
; ; .
PLATO
2fl. Kat 7] aperrj Sr) (LcfyeXifjiov €(ttlv;
MEN. 'AvdyK-q e/c tcov (LfxoXoyqfjbeuojv

2n. HKeipwfieda 8rj Kad^ eKaarov dvaXafX-
^dvovTeg, nold iariv d rji^ds cuêAet. vyieia,
(pa/xev, /cat laxvs Kal /cctAAos" Kal ttXovtos S-q
ravra Xeyofiev /cat rd roiavra cttêAi/xa. ov)(t;

MEN. Nat.
68 2n, TauTO. 8e ravrd â/xei' eviore /cat ^XdrrTetv
•q av dXXois (br]S rj ovrcos
MEN. Ou/C, aAA' OVTCOS.
2n. S/coTret 8?y, orat' ti eKacrrov rovrcov
TjyrjraL, cuêAet rjfJLds, Kal orav rt, ÂaTrrei; dp' o?5;^
orav /xei' opî^ XP^^^^> tiêAet, orav 8e ^t^, ^Xdnrei;

MEN. riap'i; ye.
2n. "Ext roivvv /cat to, Kara n^v 4'^XW 0''^^"
tfjcLfieda. aax^poavvrjv ti /caAet? /cat SiKaioavvrjv
Kal avSpeiav Kal evixadiav Kal /JLVijiJLrjv Kat fxeyaXo-

TTpeTTeiav Kal Trdvra rd roiavra;
B MEN. "Eycjye.
2n. TiKOTTCL Si], rovrcov drra crot So/cet /at;
iTTiar-qfjir] etvat dAA' aAAo emar-qfjirjs, el ovxl rork

fxkv ^XdnreL, rore 8e (l)(j)eXel; olov dvhpeia, et fxr]
ecrri, <f)p6vrjcng r) dvSpeia aAA' otov Qappos

ovx rt'
orav [JL€V dveu vov dapprj dvdpwTTOS, ^Xdnrerai,

orav 8e crvv vco, (l}(f)eXeZrai
MEN. Nat.
2fl. OvKovv Kal a'0)(f}poavvr) (haavrojs /cat €V-
fxaOta' fx,€rd fiev vov Kal p,avdav6p.€va /cat /car-
aprvofxeva a»<êAt/xa, dvev 8e voiJ ^Xaêpa;

328
—
MENO
soc. So virtue is profitable ?
MEN. That must follow from what has been
admitted.
soc. Then let us see, in particular instances,
what they are that profit us. Health,
sort of things
let us say, and strength, and beauty, and wealth
these and their like we call profitable, do we not ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. But these same things, we admit, actually
harm us at times or do you dispute that statement ?
;
MEX. No, I agree.

soc. Consider now, what is the guiding condition
in each case that makes them at one time profitable,
and at another harmful. Are they not profitable
when the use of them is right, and harmful when it
is not ?
MEN. To be sure,
soc. Then let us consider next the goods of the
soul: by these you understand temperance, justice,
courage, intelligence, memory, magnanimity, and
so forth ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. Now tell me such of these as you think are
;
not knowledge, but different from knowledge do —

they not sometimes harm us, and sometimes profit us ?
For example, courage, if it is courage apart from
prudence, and only a sort of boldness when a man :
is bold \\ithout sense, he is harmed but when he ;
has sense at the same time, he is profited, is he not ?

MEN. Yes.
soc. And the same holds of temperance and
intelligence things learnt and co-ordinated with
:
the aid of sense are profitable, but without sense they

are harmful ?
329
PLATO
C MEN. Ilavi; a(f>6Spa.
2n. OvKovv Travra ra rrj? ^'^XV^
avXXT]^Sr]v
eTTixeLp-q/jLara Kal
Kapreprjfiara 'qyovfjLevrjg fxev
(f)pov'qa€cos els evhaipioviav TeXevra, d(f>poavv'r]g
S etV Tovvavrlov;
MEN. "Eot/cev.
Et dpa dperr} tcov ev rfj tffvxf] tL iari Kal
2n.
avayKalov avTco (h<i>eXipi,cp etvai, ^p6vrj(TLv avro
del etvaL, eTreihrjTrep Trdvra rd Kara rrjv ifwx'fjv
avra jxev Kad' avrd ovre ciê'Ai/xa ovre ^Xaêpd
ecTTt, TTpoayevofievrjs Se (ftpovrjaeois rf d(fipoavvr]s
D ^Xaêpd re koX (LcfidXcfxa yiyverai. Kara Brj
rovrov rov Xoyov <h(f)eXLp,6v ye ovaav rrjv dperrjv
(f)p6vrjaiv Set riv* elvai.
MEN. SoKet.
"EijjLOiye
Sn. Kat jxev hrj Kal rdXXa, a vvv Srj eXeyofxev,
rrXovrov re Kal rd roiavra, rore /xev dyadd rore
he pXaêpd elvai, dp* ovx axTTrep rfj aAATy if^vxj] "^
<l>p6vri(jLS rjyovfjLevT) axfjeXifxa rd rrjs ^vx^j'S erroieL,
E 7y Se d<f>po(jvvrj ^Xaêpd, ovrcos av Kal rovrois rj
ipvxr) opdcos fxev XPÎ^^Î '^'^^ rjyovnevr] ciêAi/xa
aura TTOtel, firj opdcos Se ^Xaêpd;
MEN. Yldvv ye.
2n. *Opddjs Be ye tJ eyi^puiv "qyelrai, "qfiaprq-
fxevcos S' 7] d(f>pa)v;
MEN. "Ectti ravra.
2n. OvKovv ovrco Br) Kard Trdvrcov elrTelv
earn, ra> dvdpcoTTCp rd p,ev aAAa vdvra els rr)V
tpvxrjv dv7]prrjadat., rd Be rrjs ^vx'fjs avrrjs els
89 (^povrjOLV, el pueXXei dyadd etvaf Kal rovrcp rep
Xoycp (f)p6vrjais dv etrj ro <x>êXt,p,ov âp.ev Be rrjV
dperrjv a)(j)eXipiov elvai;
330
MENO
MEN. Most certainly.
soc. And in brief, all the undertakings and
endurances of the soul, when guided by wisdom,
end in happiness, but when foUy guides, in the
opposite ?
MEx. So it seems.
soc. Then if \-irtue is something that is in the
soul, and must needs be profitable, it ought to be
\visdom, seeing that all the properties of the soul
are in themselves neither profitable nor harmful,
but are made either one or the other by the addition
of wisdom or folly ; and hence, by this argument,
virtue being profitable must be a sort of wisdom.
MEN. I agree.
soc. Then as to the other things, wealth and the
like, that we mentioned just now as being some-
times good and sometimes harmful are not these —
also made profitable or harmful by the soul accord-
ing as she uses and guides them rightly or wrongly :
just as, in the case of the soul generally, we found

that the guidance of wisdom makes profitable the
properties of the soul, while that of folly makes
them harmful ?
MEX. Certainly.
soc. And the wise soul guides rightly, and the
foohsh erroneously ?
MEX. That is so.
soc. Then may we assert this as a universal
rule, that in man all other things depend upon the
soul, while the things of the soul herself depend
upon wsdom, if they are to be good ; and so by
this account the profitable will be wisdom, and
virtue, we say, is profitable ?
331
;
PLATO
MEN. Haw ye.
2n. ^povrjatv dpa â/ter aperrju eTvaL, rjroi
avfXTTaaav iq /xepos rt;
MEN. Ao/cei fioi KoAoj? Xeyeadai, cS Sco/cpare?,
rd Aeyo/xeva.
2n. OvKovv el ravra ovrojg ^xî, ovk av eiev
(f>va€i ol dyadoL.
MEN. Ov fXOI, SoKel.
B 2n. Kat yap dv ttov kol toS' rjv et (f)va€i ol dya-
dot iytyvovTO, "âdv ttov dv rjjjitv ot iylyvoiaKov
Tcov V€(x)v Tovs dyadovs ras (f)vaei.g, ovs rjfieXg av
TTapaXaôvres €K€ivcov dTTO<f>r]vdvrcov e^vXdrrojxev
ev aKpoTToXei, KaraarjfMrjvdixeuoL ttoXv fxaXXov 7} to
Xpvalov, tva /x.TjSetS' avTovs hUcjydetpev, dXX €7761817
d(f)lKOLVTO els Trjv rjXLKiav, "xpriaiijioi yiyvoivro raZs

TToXecriv .
MEN. EiAro? yd rot, a> HcoKpareg.
2n. Âp' ovi> €7761817 ^'^ (f)Vcr€L ol dyadol ayadoi
C yiyvovTai, dpa iiaQiqaeL;
MEN. AoK€i fioL rjSrj dvayKatov etvai- Kal SfjXov,
c5 HcoKpares, Kara ttjv virodeaiv, etrrep eTTLaTrjpir]
iarlv dpeTTjy on 8i8a/CTOv ioriv.
2n. "Icro)? vr] Ala' dXXd jxr} tovto ov KaXcog
(ofjioXoy-qaafiev
MEN. Kat pi-qv e8oK6i ye dpri KaXws Xeyeadai.
2n. AAAd ptrj OVK iv rep dpri pt-ovov Ber) avro
So/cetv KaXoJs XeyeaOat, dXXd Kal iv rep vvv /cai
ev ro) eTTCLra, el pceXXet rt, avrov i5yte? etvat.
D MEN. Tt ovv 817; 77/30? Tt ^XcTTOJV hvoxepalveis

avro Kal dmareZs per] ovk eTnar'qpir] rj 17 dperrj;
332
MENO
MEN. Certainly,
soc. Hence we conclude that virtue is either
wholly or partly wisdom ?
MEN. It seems to me that your statement,
Socrates, is excellent.
soc. Then if this is so, good men cannot be good
by nature.
MEN. I think not.
soc. I presume, we should have had
No, for then,
this result good men were so by nature, we
: if
surely should have had men able to discern who of
the young were good by nature, and on their point-
ing them out we should have taken them over and
kept them safe in the citadel, ha\ing set our mark
on them far rather than on our gold treasure, in
order that none might have tampered with them,
and that when they came to be of age, they might be
useful to their country.
MEN. Yes, most likely, Socrates.
soc. So since it is not by nature that the good
become good, is it by education ?
MEN. We must now conclude, I think, that it is ;
and plainly, Socrates, on our hypothesis that virtue
is knowledge, it must be taught.
soc. Yes, I daresay but what if we were not

;
right in agreeing to that ?

MEX. Well, it seemed to be a correct statement
a moment ago.
soc. Yes, but not only a moment ago must it seem
correct, but now also and hereafter, if it is to be at
all sound.
MEN. Why, what reason have you to make a
difficulty about it, and feel a doubt as to virtue being
knowledge ?
VOL. IV M .S33
PLATO
2ri. 'Eycu aoL ipco, c5 Meva>r. to /xev yap
SiBaKTOv avro elvai, eiTrep eTTLCTT'qfxrj iarlv, ovk
avaTidejxai. jxr] ov KaXcog Xeyeadai' on 8' ovk
eoTiv iinaTqjxrj , tr/cej/rat cdv aoL Sokw clkotcos
aTnarelv. roSe yap fioi el-ne' el eart SiSa/crov
OTiovp TTpdyfia, fir) fxovov dper-q, ovk dvayKaiov
avTOV /cat StSaCT/caAou? Kal {xaOrjrds elvai;
E MEN. "KjjiOLye SoKret.
2n. Ov/fow TovvavTLOV av, ov jx-qre StSaa/caAoi
/x'^TC fiad-qral etev, KaXcos dv avro eiKaôvres
elKdlôifxev p,rj SiSa/crov ctvai;
MEN. "EcTt raura- oAA' dperrjs StSacr/caAot ou
hoKovai croi elvai;
2n. IIoAAa/ft? yow t,rird)V, et rtve? ctev avrrjs
SiSdaKaXoi, irdvTa ttolcjv ov Svvap,at, evpeZv.
KairoL fierd ttoXXojv ye ^rjTco, Kal tovtcov /xaAtcTa,
ovs dv OLcofxat, einreipordrovs elvai rov Trpdyfiaros.
Kal St) Kal vvv, c5 MeVa;v, et? KaXov r^p.Zv "Avvros
90 oSe TTapeKadet,ero, o) fxeTaSw/xei' rfjs t,rjTT]aeo)S •
eLKOTCDs 8' ai' fxeraSoliJLev "Avvros yap o8e Trpdjrov

fiev eoTL TTarpos nXovalov re /cat ao<j)OV *Av6efjLLOJ-
vos, OS eyevero irXovaios ovk dTTO rov avrofidrov
ovhe hovros rivos, wcnrep 6 vvv vecoarl elX-qcfxhs
TO. HoXvKpdrovs XPVH'^'''^ ^lafxrjVLag 6 GrjâTos,
dXXd rfj avrov aoîa Kmrjcrdfievos Kal eTTifxeXeLa,
eireira Kal rd dXXa ov^ V7Tepi]<f)avos Sokcov eivai
B 'TToXir7]s ovhe dyKcoSrjs re Kal eTTa)(drjS, oAAa
KoofjiLos Kal evaraXrjg dvqp' erreira rovrov ev
edpeifse /cat e-naihevaev , ws SoKel *Adr)vala)v ru)
1 A democratic leader at Thebes who assisted Anytus

and the other exiled Athenian democrats in 403 B.C., shortly
S34
MENO
soc. I will tell you, Meno. I do not withdraw
as incorrect the statement that it is taught, if it is
knowledge ; but as to its being knowledge, consider
if I have grounds for misgiving.
you think For tell me
now anything at all, not merely virtue, is teach-
: if
able, must there not be teachers and learners of it ?
MEN. I think so.
soc. Then also conversely, if a thing had neither
teachers nor learners, we should be right in surmising
that it could not be taught ?
MEN. That is so but do you think there are no
:
teachers of virtue ?
soc. I must say I have often inquired whether
there were any, but for all my pains I cannot find
one. And yet many have shared the search with
me, and particularly those persons whom I regard
as best qualified for the task. But look, Meno :
here, at the very moment when he was wanted, we

have Anytus sitting down beside us, to take his
share in our quest. And we may well ask his
assistance for our friend Anytus, in the first place,
;
is the son of a wise and wealthy father, Anthemion,
who became rich not by a fluke or a gift like that —

man the other day, Ismenias ^ the Theban, who
has come into the fortune of a Poly crates ^ but as the —
product of his own skill and industry ^ and secondly, ;
he has the name of being in general a well-conducted,

mannerly person, np^ insolent towards his fellow-
citizens or arrogant jnd annoying and further,;
he gave his son a good upbringing and education,

as the Athenian people think, for they choose him
before their return to Athens and the supposed time of this
dialojrue (about 403 b.c). Cf. Rep. i. 336 a.
^
Tyrant of Samoa about 530 b.c. Cf. Herodot. iii.
39 foU. » As a tanner.
335
; ; ;
PLATO
irXi^deL'alpovvrai yovv avTov irrl ras fxcyicrrag
dpxds. hcKaiov Srj fxerd rotovrcov ^rjrelv dpeTrjg
TTepi StSaaKciXovs, etr' elarlv eire /xiy, /cai oitlvcs.
av ovv rijJi.lv, cS "Avvre, (w^'qTT]aov, i/jboi re /cai to)
aavrov êvo) M.€VCt)VL rwSe, Tvepl tovtov rov Trpdy-
fxaro's, TLvesav etev SiSacTKaAot. cSSe 8e aKei/jaf
el ôvXoLjjLeda Mevoira rwSe dyadov larpov yeveadat,
C TTapd TLvas dv avrov TrefnToipêv SiSaaKaXovs

dp^ ov TTapd Tou? larpovs;
AN. Yidvv ye.
2n. Tt S' el aKvroTOjxov dyaOov ôvXoijxeda
yeveadai, dp* ov rrapd tovs aKVTOTopLOVs
AN. Nat.
2fi. Kat ToAAa ovTCDs;
AN. Ildvv ye.
2n. ^D8e 8-q fjiOL ttoXlv TTepl rtov avrcov etTre.
TTapd TOVS larpovs, (pa/xev, TTCfiTTovres rovSe
KaXcos av eTTep.TTop.ev, ôvX6p,evoi larpov yeveadaf
D dp^ orav rovro Xeycop-ev, roSe Xeyop.ev, on TTapd
rovrovs rrepLTTovres avrov aoi<^povoZp.ev dv, rovs
dvrLTTOiovp,evovs re rrjs re)(yrjs pbdXXov ^ rovs
{xrj, KoX rovs p.iaQdv TTparrop,evovs ctt' avro)
rovrcp, dTTO(f)-qvavras avrovs SSaoKaXovs rov
ôvXopêvov levat re /cat p,avddveiv ; dp* ov Trpos
ravra ^Xetpavres KaXdJs dv Trep^TTOiixev
AN. Nat.
2n. OvKOVv /cat Trepl rwv dXXojv
avXrioeois /cat
rd avrd ravra; ttoXXt] avoid eon ôvXop,evovs
E avXrjrrjv rtva TTOcrjoai, TTapd p,ev rovs VTTiaxvovpe-
vovs SiSdêtv rrjv rexvrjv /cat pîadov Trparrop,evovs
fir) edeXeiv TrefjuTTeiv, dXXots 8e rtcrt rrpdyfiara
trapexeiv, ^rjrovvra p,avddv€iv Trapd rovrwv, oi
336
MENO
for the highest offices. This is the sort of man to
whom one may look for help in the inquiry as to
whether there are teachers of virtue or not, and
who they may be. So please, Anytus, join îth
me and your family -friend Meno in our inquiry
—
about this matter who can be the teachers. Con-
sider ^ thus if we wanted Meno here to be a good
:
doctor, to whom should we send him for instruction ?

Would it not be to the doctors ?
AX. Certainly.
soc. And if we wanted him to become a good
cobbler, should we not send him to the cobblers ?
AN. Yes.
soc. And in the same way with every other
trade ?
AN. Certainly.
soc. Now let me ask you something more about
these same instances. We
should be right, we say,
in sending him to the doctors if we wanted him
to be a doctor. When we say this, do we mean
that we should be wise in sending him to those
who profess the art rather than those who do
not, and to those who charge a fee for the particular
thing they do, as avowed teachers of anyone who
-wishes to come and learn of them ? If these
were our reasons, should we not be right in sending
him ?
AN. Yes.
soc. And the same would hold in the case of flute-
playing, and so on with the rest ? \\Tiat folly, when
we wanted to make someone a flute-player, to refuse
to send him to the professed teachers of the art,
who charge a regular fee, and to bother mth requests
for instruction other people who neither set up to
337
. . ;
PLATO
fi'qre trpoaTTOiovvrai SiSaa/caAoi efj'ai iirjr'
avrihv fiadrjTTjs /xr^Set? rovTOV rov âdi]ixaro^,
o rjfxeis d^Lovfiei' fiavddveiv Trap* avrojv ov av
TTefnTOJ/Jiev ov ttoAAt^ crot SoKet aAoyta eti'at;
.
AN. Nat fjid Ata efiotye, /cat dpLaOia ye irpos.

2n. KaAoi? Aeyetj. vw roivvv eêari ae
91 /xer* e/xoy Koivfj ôvXevecrOai Trepl rov êvov
TOVTOvt Mevcovos. ovTOS yd-p, to "Avvre, TraAat
Aeyei Trpd? /u.e, on eTndvp,el Tavrrjs rrjs cro^t'a?
/cat dpeTrjs, ^ oi dv9pa>7TOt rds re ot/cta? /cat
ra? TToAet? /caAcDs' Stot/couCTi, /cat revs yoveas

Tovg avrcov depanevovai, /cat TToXlras /cat îvovs
VTToheâaBai re /cat dTTonefii/jai, eTriaravrai d^Lcos
B di'Spos" dyadov. ravrrjv ovv r-qv dperrjv <p,adria6-
fxevov>^ OKOTTei Trapd. rivas dv Tre/xTTOvres avroi^
dpdojs irefXTTOinev. t] SijXov 8r) Kara rov dpri
Xoyov, oTt Trapo. rovrovs rovs VTTiaxyovfjLevovs
dperrjs StSacr/caAoy? etrat Kat dTTO(f)r]vavras avrovs
KOLVOvs rcbv 'EAAt^vojv rep ôvAofievcp p,avddveiv,
fitadov rovrov raâp,evovs re /cat Trparrofievovs
AN. Kat TtVaj Aeyetj rovrovs, c5 Jla)Kpares;
Sn. OtaOa S'qvov /cat crv, on ovroi eloLV
ovs ol dvdpcoTTOi KoXovuL cjo(f)i,ards
C AN. 'Hpa/cAets", ev(j)ripLeL, c5 XcoKpareS' /xrjSeva
rcov y' efxiov^ fi-qre OLKeiojv /ju-qre (f)iXcov, pLrjre
darov fjLrjre êvov,Xdôi, coare

roiavrr] fiavca
Trapd rovrovs eXOovra Xa}^T]6rjvai, eTvel ovroi ye
âvepd ecrri Xio^rj re Kal 8(,a<f>dopd rGiV avy-
yiyvofievojv
2n. riois" Xeyets, co "Avvre; ovroi dpa [xouoi.
^ fiaOrjffdfxei'ov intercidisse coni. Cobet.

* y' i/jL&v Burnet : yefiwi/, avyyevCiv mss.
338
MENO
be teachers nor have a single pupil in that sort of
study which we expect him, when sent, to pursue !
Do you not consider this would be grossly

unreasonable ?
AN. Yes, on my word, I do, and stupid to boot.
see. Quite right. And now there is an oppor-
tunity of your joining me in a consultation on my
friend Meno here. He has been declaring to me
ever so long, Anytus, that he desires to have that
wisdom and virtue whereby men keep their house
good order, and honour their parents,
or their city in
and know when to welcome and when to speed
citizens and strangers as befits a good man. Now
tell me, to whom ought we properly to send him
for lessons in this virtue ? Or is it clear enough,
from our argument just now, that he should go to
these men who profess to be teachers of virtue and
advertise themselves as the common teachers of
the Greeks, and are ready to instruct anyone
who chooses in return for fees charged on a fixed
scale ?
AN. To whomare you referring, Socrates ?

sec. Surely you know as well as anyone
; they
are the men whom
people call sophists.
AN. For heaven's sake hold your tongue, Socrates !
May no kinsman or friend of mine, whether of this
city or another, be seized with such madness as to
let himself be infected with the company of those
men for they are a manifest plague and corrup-
;
tion to those who frequent them.'^

soc. What is this, Anytus ? Of all the people
' Anytus' vehemence expresses the hostility of the
ordinary practical democrat, after the restoration of 403 b.c.,
towards any novel movement in the state.
339
PLATO
rcbv avTiTTOtov/jLevcov ri emaraaQai evepyereiu
roaovTOV rajv aXXiov 8ia(f)€povat,v, oaov ov fxovov
ovK u)(f)eXova(,v axnrep ol dXXoL, o ri av ns avroZg
,
D TTapahoj, dAAa /cat to ivavriov hLa(j)deipovaL;

K<XL rovrcov (f>avep6jg )(pijp,aTa ol^lovcl TrpaTTeadai;
eyd) jxev ovv ovk exô ottcos aoi Tnarevcrco' olba
yap avSpa eva Upcorayopav TrXeico XPVI^^'''^
Krr]fjap,evov airo ravrr]? rfjg ao(f>ias rj êihiav re,
o? ovrui 7T€pL(f)avwg KaXa epya €ipydt,€TO, /cat
dXXovg 8e/ca rcov dvSpLavTOTTOLcov /catVoi repas
Aeyet?, et ot fiev rd inroS-qfiara ipyaôfxevoi rd
TTaXaia /cat ra lixaria eâKOVfievoi ovk dv Svvaivro
E XaQelv rpidKovd^ rjfiepas fioxOr^porepa aTToStSot'Tes'
rj vapeXaôv ra l/jbdrid re /cat vTroSyj/xaTa, dXX' el
roiavra TToioZev, ra^v dv rep XipLco diroddvoiev,

Upcorayopas Se dpa dXrjV rrjv 'EAActSa iXdvddve
8tacf)deLpa)v rovs avyytyvofievovs /cat p-oxdiqpore-
povs dTTOTTefXTTOJV t) TTapeXdfiâve irXeov rj rerra-
paKOvra err)- otfiaL ydp avrov drrodaveZv iyyvs
/cat e^SofMT^Kovra err] yeyovora, rerrapaKovra
Se ev rfj rexyrj ovra- /cat ev dnavri rco xP^vcp
rovrcp en els ttjv r]p,€pav ravrrjvl evSoKLficov
ovSev TTerravrai' /cat ov p,6vov Uporrayopas,
92 dAAa /cat ctAAot 7rd/x7ToAAot, ot /xev Trporepov yeyo-
vores eKelvov, ol Se /cat vvp en ovreg. TTorepov
Sr) ovv (f)(OfJiev /card rov aov Xoyov elSoras avrovs
eânardv /cat Xoi^dadai rovs veovs, rj XeXrjOevaL

/cat eavrovs; /cat ovrco fialveadai dîioaofxev
TotJTOvs, ovs evioi (f>aat ao(f)cordrovs dvdpconcov
etvac;
AN. HoXXov ye heovai /xatVecrât, c5 HwKpares,
dXXd TToXv /xdXXov ol rovrois SiSovres dpyvpiov
840
MENO
who set up to understand how to do us good, do you
mean to single out these as conveying not merely
no benefit, such as the rest can give, but actually
corruption to anyone placed in their hands ? And
is it for doing this that they openly claim the pay-
ment of fees ? For my part I cannot bring myself

to believe you ; for I know of one man, Protagoras,
who amassed more money by his craft than Pheidias
— so famous for the noble works he produced — or
any ten other sculptors. And yet how surprising
that menders of old shoes and furbishers of clothes
should not be able to go undetected thirty days if
they should return the clothes or shoes in worse
condition than they received them, and that such
doings on their part would quickly starve them to
death, while for more than forty years all Greece
failed to notice that Protagoras was corrupting his
classes and sending his pupils away in a worse state
than when he took charge of them For I believe
!
he died about seventy years old, forty of which he

spent in the practice of his art ; and he retains un-
diminished to this day the high reputation he has
—
enjoyed all that time and not only Protagoras,
but a multitude of others too some who lived
:
before him, and others still living. Now are we to

take it, according to you, that they wittingly
deceived and corrupted the youth, or that they were
themselves unconscious of it ? Are we to conclude
those w ho are frequently termed the wisest of man-
kind to have been so demented as that ?
AN, Demented ! Not they, Socrates far rather
:
the young men who pay them money, and still
VOL, IV M 2 341
PLATO
Ttov vioiv Tovroiv S en fxaXXov ol rovrois iin-
B rpetrovTes, ol TTpocrT]KOvr€g' ttoXv 8e ixaXicrra ttolvtcov
at TToAei?, ecoCTttt avrovs elaacfiLKveLadai /cat ovk
eêXavvovaaL, etre tls $€vos iTnêipel rotovrov
Ti TTOLcXv etre aoros".
2n. Horepov 8e, a» "Avin-e, rjSLKrjKi ri'S ae
Tcbv ao(f)iara)v , 7) ri ovtcos avrols xctAeTro? et;
AN. Oi)8e fia Ata eycoye avyyiyova. TTioTTOTe
avTU)V ovSevL, ovS* dv aAAoj/ idaaipn ra)v ifxajv
ovSeva.
211. "Anecpos a.p el TravrdTracn tcov dvhpihv;
C AN. Kat etrjv ye.
2n. ncD? ovv dv, c5 Saifjiovte, elSelrjg jrepl
TOVTOV Tov TTpdy/juaTos, eire ri dyadov e;êi ev
eavTcp etre (f)Xavpov, ov iravrdTraaiv aTreipos
et-qs;
AN. 'PaSlcos' Tovrovs yovv oiSa ot elaiv,
ciT* ovv dneipos avrcJov elfil elre pu-q.
2n. mavTts et ktco?, co Avvre' errei ottcos ye
dXXojs olada rovroiv rrepi, ef c5v avros Xeyeig
6avfJidt,oLpi dv. aXXd yap ov rovTovg eTTL^rjTovfjLeu
D TLVes elai, Trap' ovg dv Mevcov dcfuKoixevos pboxd-qpos
yevoiro' ovtoi jxev ydp, el ot) ôvXei, earcov ol
oroîorrar dXXd 8r] eKeivovs elire rjijitv, /cat rov
TTOTpiKov Tovhe eraZpov evepyer-qaov , (f)pdaa<; avro),
TTapd rlvas d(f>LK6fX€vos ev roaavrrj TToXei rr)v
dpeTTjV 7]V vvvSrj eydi SirjXdov yevoiT dv dîos
Xoyov.
AN. Tt he avTcp ov av e(f)paaas;
2X1. 'AAA' ovs p-ev iyd) wfirjv SiSaa/caAoys'
TOVTOJV elvai, elTTOv, oAAo. rvyxdvo} ovSev Xeycov,
E dis (TV <f>'!^S' Kol taojs Tt Xeyeis. dXXd aii 8rj ev
342
MENO
more the relations who let the young men have their
way and most of all the cities that allow them to
;
enter, and do not expel them, whether such attempt

be made by stranger or citizen.
soc. Tell me, Anytus, has any of the sophists
WTonged you ? What makes you so hard on them.?
AN. No, heaven knows I have never in my life
had dealings with any of them, nor would I let any
of my people have to do with them either.
soc. Then you have absolutely no experience of
those persons ?
AN. And may.

trust I never
soc. How my
good sir, can you tell whether
then,
a thing has any good or evil in it, if you are quite
without experience of it ?
AN. Easily the fact is, I know what these people
:
are, whether I have experience of them or not.

soc. You are a wizard, perhaps, Anytus ; for I
really cannot see, from what you say yourself, how
else you can know anything about them. But we
are not inquiring now who the teachers are whose
lessons would make Meno wicked let us grant, if
;
vou will, that they are the sophists I only ask you to
:
tell us, and do Meno a service as a friend of your

family by letting him know, to whom in all this
great city he should apply in order to become
eminent in the virtue which I described just now.
AN. Why not tell him yourself ?
soc. I did mention to him the men whom I
supposed to be teachers of these things ; but I
find, from what you say, that I am quite oif the
track, and I daresay you are on it. Now you take
343
;
PLATO
rep fiepei avro) cIttc napa rlvas cXOrj *A9rjvalo}V'
eiTre ovofia otov jSouAet.
AN, Tt 8e ivos avdpoiiTov 6vop,a Set aKovaai;
OTCi) yap av ivrvxi) 'AdrjvaLcov rcov koKcov Kaya-
6<jov, ovSels eoTLV os ov êXria} avrov vociâet, rj
o'l aoîaraiy eavrrep ideXrj ireideadai.
2n. Yiorepov 8e ovtoi ol /caAot Kayadol oltto
Tov avTOfidrov iyevovro toiovtol, Trap* ovhevo?
fxadovres opucosdXXovs SiSdaKeiv oloi re
pLevroi
93 ovres ravTa, a avrol ovk €p,adov;
AN. Kat TOVTovs eywye d^LOj rrapd tcov Trpori-
pcov padeZv, ovrtov koXwv Kdyada>v' tj ov hoKovai
aoL TToAAot /cat dyadol yeyovevai iv rfjhe rij TrdAet
dvSpes;
2n. "EjLtotye, c5 "Avvre, koI etj/ai Sokovglv
ivddSe dyadol rd TroAtrt/ca, /cat yeyovevai, eri,
ovx '^TTOv 7] elvat,' oAAo. fxcov /cat StSaa/caAot

ayaôt yeyovacri rrjs avrcov dperrjs; tovto ydp
ear I Trepl o5 6 Aoyo? r/fitu rvy^dvei, cov ovk el
B elalv dyaOol t) p,rj dvSpes evddhe, ouS' el yeyovaaiv
€V ra> TTpoadev, aAA' et StSa/crot' iartv dperrj TraAat
OKOTTovpLev. rovro Se (jKOTTovvres rohe gkottov-
fiev, dpa ol dyadol dvSpeg /cat rcov vvv /cat rcjv
TTporepcov ravrrjv rrjv avrol dyadol
aperrjv, 7]v
"qaav, rjTTLaravro /cat dXXo) TrapaSovvai, ^ ov

TTapaSorov rovro dvdpconip ovSe TrapaXrjTrrov dXXo)
Trap' dXXov. rovr^ eariv o TrdXai ^7]rovpev eyu) re
/cat MeVojr. coSe ovv OKOTret e/c rov aavrov Xoyov
C QepLiaroKXea ovk dyadov av (f>airjs dvSpa yeyovevai
AN. "Eyojye, Trdvrcuv ye pLdXtara.
844
MENO
your turn, and tell him to whom of the Athenians
—
he is to go. Give us a name anyone you please.
AN. Why mention a particular one ? Any
Athenian gentleman he comes across, without
exception, viiW do him more good, if he will do as
he is bid, than the sophists.
soc. And did those gentlemen grow spontaneously
into what they are, and ^Wthout learning from
anybody are they able, nevertheless, to teach
others what they did not learn themselves ?
AN. I expect they must have learnt in their turn
from the older generation, who were gentlemen or :
does it not seem to you that we have had many

good men in this city ?
soc. Yes, I agree, Anytus ; we have also many
who are good at politics, and have had them in the
past as well as now. But I want to know whether
they have proved good teachers besides of their own
virtue : that is the question with which our dis-
cussion is actually concerned not whether there
;
are, or formerly have been, good men here amongst

us or not, but whether \irtue is teachable; this has
been our problem all the time. And our inquiry into
this problem resolves itself into the question : Did
the good men of our own and of former times know
how to transmit to another man the virtue in
respect of which they were good, or is it something
not to be transmitted or taken over from one
human being to another ? That is the question I
and Meno have been discussing all this time.
Well, just consider it in your own way of speak-
ing: would you not say that Themistocles was a
good man ?
AN. I would, particularly so.
S45
PLATO
2X1. OvKovv Kal SiSdcTKaXov ayadov, eiTrep
ris oAAo? TTJs avTOV dperrjg SiSdaKaXos "qv, /ca-
Kelvov etvai;
AN. Of/xat eyojye, elirep iôvXero ye.
2n. 'AAA', oUl, ovk dv eôvX-qdrj dXXovs
re Tivas KaXovs Kdyadovs yeveaOat, /LtaAtcrra 84
TTOV TOV vloV TOV aVTOV ; o'Ul aVTOV (f)doV€LV
•>)
avTCp Kal iêTTLTTjSes ov TrapaStSovai ttjv dper-qv,

D r]v avTos dyados rjv; tq ovk dK-qKoas, on Oe/xt-
aroKXrjg KAeo</>av'TOV rov vlov iTTTrea jjiev eSiSaâro
dyadov; yovv inl tcov lttttcjv opdos
ivefjieve
iarrjKcos, Kal rjKOVTLêv arro rcvv lttttcov opdos,
Kal dXXa TToXXd Kal davixaard elpydêro, a eKelvos
avrov iTTatBevaaro Kal iiroirjae aoôv, daa StSa-
GKdXujv dyaddJv etx^ro- t] ravra ovk dKT]Koas
Tcbv TTpea^vrepcov ;
AN. 'A/c7^/coa.
2n. Ovk dv dpa rtjv ye <jivaiv rov vUos avrov
rjTidaar* dv ti? eiiâi KaKrjV.
E AN. "Yaois OVK dv.
2n. Ti 8e ToSe; co? KAeotâvroj o 0e/xt-
otokXIovs dvrjp dyados Kal cro(f)6g iyevero drrep
6 TTarrip avrov, rjh-q rov dKiJKoas "^ vecorepov r)
TTpea^vrepov ;
AN. Ov hrjra.
2n. *Ap' ovv ravra pikv olo/Jieda ôvXeaOac
avrov TOV avrov vlov TraiSevaai, tJv Se avros
ao(f)Lav "^v ao(f)6s, ovSev rdjv yeirovcov jSeAricu
7T0LT]aai, eirrep rjv ye SiSaKrov r) dperr];
AN. "Ictoj? /xa At" ov.
2n. OuTO? /xei^ S17 crot rotouro? 8iSacr«-aAos
346
MENO
soc. Andif any man ever was a teacher of his own
virtue, he especially was a good teacher of his ?
AN. In my opinion, yes, assuming that he wished
to be so.
soc. But can you suppose he would not have
wished that other people should become good,
—
honourable men above all, I presume, his own son ?
Or do you think he was jealous of him, and deliber-
ately refused to impart the virtue of his own goodness
to him ? Have you never heard how Themistocles
had his son Cleophantus taught to be a good horse-
man ? Why, he could keep his balance standing
upright on horseback, and hurl the javelin while so
standing, and perform many other wonderful feats
in which his father had had him trained, so as to
make him skilled in all that could be learnt from
good masters. Surely you must have heard all this
from your elders }
AN. I have.
soc. Then there could be no complaints of badness
in his son'snature ?
AN. daresay not.
I
soc. But I ask you —
did you ever hear anybody,
old or young, say that Cleophantus, son of Themis-
tocles, had the same goodness and accomplishments
as his father ?
AN. Certainly not.
soc. And
can we believe that his father chose to
train hisown son in those feats, and yet made him
no better than his neighbours in his own particular
—
accomplishments if virtue, as alleged, was to be
taught ?
AN. On my word, I think not.
soc. Well, there you have a fine teacher of virtue
347
,
PLATO
aperrjs, ov Kat av o/xoAoyet? €v rols apLarov twv
94 TTporepcov elvai' dXXov 8e Sr] (TKeipcofieda, 'Apt-
aTeihrjv tov Avaipidxov rj tovtov ovx o/xoAoyeis
ayadov yeyovevai;
AN. Eyojye, TrdvTOJS hiqirov.
2n. OvKOVV /cat OVTOS TOV vloV TOV aVTOV
Avaip-axov, oara fjbev SSacrKaXcov ei;(eTo, KaXXiara
Âdrjvatcov eTralSevaev , dvhpa he êXrioi 8ok€l
aoL OTOVOvv 7Te7TOirjK€vai; rovrcp yap ttov Kal
avyyeyovas Kal opas otos eariv. el Se ôvXei,
B XiepiKXea, ovtco fieyaXoTrpeTTOJs ao(^6v dvSpa,
olad* on Suo vlels edpeipe, UdpaXov Kal advd-
ITTTTOV;
AN. "Eyojye.
2fl. Tovrovg /Jievroi, ofS" olada Kal av, LTTTrla^
fjiev eSiSaêv ovSevos ;êtpoi;s' 'Adrjvalcou, Kal
fjLovaLKTjv raAAa eTraiSevaev, oaa
Kal dycxiviav /cat
rexyrfs ex^rai, ovhevos ;(et/3ous'* dyadovg Se dpa

dvhpag ovk eôvXero TTOLrJGai; So/ecu fJiev, eôvXero,
dXXd firj OVK rj hihaKTOv. tva he [J,rj oXlyovg
oirj Kal Tovs (fiavXordrovs ^ Adrfvaiajv dhwdrovs
Q yeyoi'eVat rovro to Trpdyfia, evdvfi-qOrjTL oti Qovkv-
hihrjs av hvo utei? edpeipe, MeXrjatav Kal YiTe(f)avov
Kal tovtov; eTraihevae Td re aAAa ev Kal eTrdXataav
KoXXioTa ÂSr]vaiit)v tov p,ev yap Savdia ehcoKe,
TOV he Eu8a>/3a>* ovtol he ttov ehoKOVV tcov TOTe
KoAAtCTxa TTaXaietv rj ov /xe/xvTjaat;
AN. "Eycoye, aKofj.
^ Thucydides (son of Melesias, and no relation of the
historian) was an aristocrat of high principle and con-
348
MENO
who, you admit, was one of the best men of past
times. Let us take another, Aristeides, son of
Lysimachus do you not admit that he was a good
:
man ?
AN. I do, absolutely, of course.

soc. Well, did he not train his son Lysimachus
better than any other Athenian in all that masters
could teach him ? And in the result, do you consider
he has turned out better than anyone else ? You
have been in his company, I know, and you see what
—
he is like. Or take another example ^the splendidly
accomplished Pericles he, as you are aware, brought
:
up two sons, Paralus and Xanthippus.

AN. Yes.
soc. And, you know as well as I, he taught them
to be the foremost horsemen of Athens, and trained
them to excel in music and gymnastics and all
else that comes under the head of the arts ; and
with all that, had he no desire to make them good
men He wished to, I imagine, but presumably
?
it not a thing one can be taught. And that

is
you may not suppose it was only a few of the meanest
sort of Athenians who failed in this matter, let me
remind you that Thucydides ^ also brought up two
sons, Melesias and Stephanus, and that besides
giving them a good general education he made them
the best WTCstlers in Athens one he placed with
:
Xanthias, and the other with Eudorus masters —

who, I should think, had the name of being the
best exponents of the art. You remember them,
do you not ?
AN. Yes, by hearsay.
servative views who opposed the plans of Pericles for

enriching and adorning Athens.
349
;
PLATO
2n. OvKOVV SrjXoV OTL OVTOS OVK aV 7TOT€,
ov ix€v eSet haTravoijxevov hihdaKeiv, ravra fxev
D eSiSaê rovs nalSas tovs avrov, ov Se ovSev
eSet dvaXcoaavra dyadovs dvSpas TTOirjoai,, ravra
0€ OVK iSiSaêv, el SiSaKTOv rjv; dXXd yap tacos
o QovKvblSr^s (f)avXos '^v, Kal ovK âav avro)
TrXeiaroL ^t'Aot Âdrjvaioiv Kal tcov avfifidxojv
/cat oLKLas /JieydXrjs rjv kol eSwaro fieya iv rfj
TToXei Kal €V Tols dXXois "EAAtjctiv, ware eiTrep
rjv rovro SiSa/CTov", iêvpelv dv oaris efieXXev
avTov TOVS vUls dyadovs TTOi-qaeLV, -^ rcov CTnxojpicov
E TLs y} Twv êvcov, el avros p^r) eaxdXaê 8id ttjv
TTJs TToXecos eTn/xeXeiav dXXd ydp, c5 eraipe
.
Avvre, p,rj ovk rj StSa/CTOv d/aexTy.

AN. *n YiCJoKpares, paStco? /moi hoKels KaKcbs
Xeyeiv dvOpcLvovs. iyd) p-ev ovv dv aoi avp,-
fôvXevcraipn, , el eOeXeis ep,ol TrelOeadai, evXa-
êladat- chs tcro)? p,ev Kal ev aAAr^ TToAet paov^
iari KaKa>s TTOieiv dvOpcoTTOVs ^ ed, ev rfjSe Se
95 Kal irdw olp,ai 8e ae koI avrov elSevai.
2X1. *n MeVojv, "AvvTos /i.eV /xoi 8o/cet ;â-
XcTTaivetv Kal ovSev davp,dlô)' oterat, ydp p,€
TTpcoTov p,€v KaKTjyopelv rovrovs rovs dvSpas,
eVetTa rjyelrai Kal avros elvai. els rovrcov. oAA
ovros p-ev edv Trore yvo), olov eart ro KaKCJS
Xeyeiv, iravaerai ;âAe7raiVa;t', vvv 8e dyvoeZ' av
Se p,oi eme, ov Kal Trap' vp,lv elal KaXol Kayadol
dvSpes;
^ pq.6v Buttmann pg.5i.6v mss.
:
^ Anytus goes away. His parting words show that (in

Plato's view) he regarded Socrates as an enemy of the
restored democracy which, he hints, has popular juries only
too ready to condemn such an awkward critic.
350
MENO
soc. Well, is it not ob\ious that this father would
never have spent his money on ha\ing his children
taught all those things, and then have omitted to
teach them at no expense the others that would
have made them good men, if virtue was to be
taught ? Will you say that perhaps Thucydides
was one of the meaner sort, and had no great number
of friends among the Athenians and allies? He,
who was of a great house and had much influence
in our city and all over Greece, so that if \irtue were
to be taught he would have found out the man who
was likely to make his sons good, whether one of
our own people or a foreigner, were he himself too
busy owing to the cares of state Ah no, my dear
!
Anytus, it looks as though virtue were not a teach-

able thing.
AN. Socrates, I consider you are too apt to speak
ill of people. I, for one, if you will take my advice,
would warn you to be careful in most cities it is
:
probably easier to do people harm than good, and

particularly in this one ; I think you know that
yourself.^
soc. Meno, I think Anytus is angry, and I am not
at all surprised : for he conceives, in the first place,
that I am speaking ill of these gentlemen ; and in the
second place, he considers, he is one of them himself.
Yet, should the day come when he knows what
"speaking ill" means, his anger will cease at present ;
he does not know.^ Now you must answer me are :
there not good and honoiu-able men among your

people also ?
- This is probably not a reference to a prosecution of
Anytus himself, but a suggestion that what he needs is a
Socratic discussion on "speaking ill," for "ill" may mean
" maliciously," " untruthfully," " ignorantly," etc.
351
; ;
PLATO
MEN. Ildvv ye.
B 2fl. Tt ovv;
edeXovaiv ovtoi Trapexîv avrov?
StSacTKaAous' Tots" viois, Kal oôXoyeZv hihaoKaXoi
re €Lvai. /cai hihaKrov dper-qv;
MEN. Ov fjid rov Ala, c5 TicoKpares, dAAa
Tore jxev dv avTU>v aKovaais cos StSa/crov, rore
e ct)? ou.
2n. Oco/xei' ow Touroys' SiSacr/faAoi;? etvat
Tovrov rov Trpdyfjbaros, ots fMrjSe avro rovro
ojxoXoyelrai
MEN. Ov pLOL SoK€L, J) HcoKpareS'
2n. Tt 8e Si]; ol aocf)Larai aoi ovroi, OLirep
C piovoL enayyeXXovraL, SoKovat Si8acr/<:aAot eluai
dperrjs;
MEN. Kai Fopyiou ptdXicrra, cS llcoKpares,
ravra dyapuai, on, ovk dv TTore avrov rovro
aKovaais vmcrxvovpievov, dXXd Kai ra>v dXXojv
KarayeXa, orav dKovaj] VTTia-)(yovpievoiv dAAa
Xeyeiv o'ierai heZv TToieZv heLVovs.
2n. Oi5S' dpa aol Sokovclv ol aocjuaral 8i-
SdaKaXoL elvai;
MEN. Ovk €)((jo XeyeLV, c5 HcoKpares. Kal
yap avros orrep ol ttoXXoI Trerrovda' rore p,ev
pLOt, SoKovai, rore 8e ov.
2n. Olada 8e ort ov pLovov aoi re Kal rots

D dXXoLS rols TToXtriKolg rovro So/cet rore puev
elvai BiSaKTOv, rore 8' ov, dAAct Kal Oeoyviv rov
TTOtrjrrjv otad* on ravrd ravra Xeyei;
MEN. Ev TTOLOLS erreaiv
2n. 'Ev rots' eXeyeioLS, oS Xeyei —
Kal rrapd rolaiv rrZve Kal eadte, Kal pt,era rolaiv
tê, /cat av8ai'e rot?, (Lv pieydXrj Svvapas.
352
—
MENO
MEN. Certainly.
soc. Well then, are they willing to put themselves
forward as teachers of the young, and avow that they
are teachers and that virtue is to be taught ?
MEN. No, no, Socrates, I assure you sometimes
:
you may hear them refer to it as teachable, but

sometimes as not.
soc. Then are we to call those persons teachers
of this thing, when they do not even agree on that
great question ?
MEN. I should say not, Socrates.
soc. Well, and what of the sophists ? Do you
consider these, its only professors, to be teachers of
\irtue ?
MEN. That is a point, Socrates, for which I admire

Gorgias you will never hear him promising this,
:
and he ridicules the others when he hears them

promise it. Skill in speaking is what he takes it
to be their business to produce.
soc. Then you do not think the sophists are
teachers of virtue ?
MEN. cannot say, Socrates. I am in the same

I
plight as the rest of the world sometimes I think
:
that they are, sometimes that they are not.

soc. And are you aware that not only you and
other political folk are in two minds as to whether
virtue is to be taught, but Theognis the poet al§o
says, you remember, the very same thing ?
MEN. In which part of his poems ?
soc. In those elegiac lines where he says
*'
ELat and drink with these men ; sit with them, and be
pleasing unto them, who wield great power for from the
;
353
PLATO
eadXcov fi,€V yap cltt' eaOXa StSdêai' t]v 8e
E KaKoZaiv
avixfiLayrjs, oLTToXe ts Kal rov iovra voov.
olad^ on iv tovtols fiev co? StSa/croiJ ovarjs ttjs
dpeTTJs Xeyei;
MEN. OatVerat ye,
2X1. Ei^ aAAoi? Se ye oXiyov juerajSa?,
€t 8 ^V TTOlTjTOV, (fiTjai, KOL CvdcTOV dvSpl VOTjfjta,
Ae'yei ttcos on
TToXXovs dv fiiadovs Kal fieydXovs €(f)€pov
ol SvvdflCVOl TOVTO TTOielv, Kal
ov 7TOT dv €^ dyaOov Trarpog eyevro KaKos,
96 TTeidofievos jxvdoLaL aa6<f)poaLV. dXXd hihaoKOiv
ov TTore TTOi-qaecs tov KaKov divSp* dyadov.
iwoets OTL avTos avrio irdXiv Trepi rdjv avrcov
rdvavTia Xiyei;
MEN. OatVerai.
2n. ''E;êts' ovv elireiv dXXov otovovv Trpdyjxarog,
oS ol fiev (f)daKovT€s StSacr/caAoi elvai ovx ottojs
dXXcov SiSdaKaXoi o/JLoXoyovvrat, aAA' oySe avrol
B eTTiaraadai, dXXd irovqpoL elvai Trepl avro rovro
TO TTpdyfia oS <j)aal StSdaKaXoi etvai, ol 8e o/xoAo-
yovjjievoL avrol koXoI Kdyadol Tore fiev âaiv
avro SiSa/CTOv elvai,, rore Se ov; rovs ovv ovrco
rerapay/xevovs nepl orovovv Satrjs dv av Kvplcos
hihaaKdXovs elvai;
MEN. Ma A" ovK eycoye.
2fl. OvKovv el fXTQre ol aoîarai [xrjre ol avrol
1 Bergk, 33-36. « Bergk, 434-438.
354
— — :
MENO
good wilt thou win thee lessons in the good; but mingle
with the bad, and thou wilt lose even the sense that thou
^
hast."
Do you observe how in these words he implies that

virtue is to be taught ?
MEN. He does, e\idently.
soc. But in some other lines he shifts his ground
a little, saying
" Could understanding be created and put into a man "
(I think it runs thus) " many high rewards would they
obtain " (that is, the men who were able to do such a thing)
and again
" Never would a bad son have sprung from a good father,
for he would have followed the precepts of wisdom but not :
by teaching wilt thou ever make the bad man good."*
You notice how in the second passage he contradicts

himself on the same point ?
MEN. Apparently.
soc. Well, can you name any other subject in
which the professing teachers are not only refused
recognition as teachers of others, but regarded as
not even understanding it themselves, and indeed
as inferior in the very quality ofwhich they claim
to be teachers ; while those who
are themselves
recognized as men of worth and honour say at one
time that it is teachable, and at another that it is
not ? When people are so confused about this or
that matter, can you say they are teachers in any
proper sense of the word ?
MEN. No, indeed, I cannot.
soc. Well, if neither the sophists nor the men
S55
; . ,
PLATO
KaXol Kayadol ovres SiSdcrKaXoL elai rov Trpdyfxaro?,
BrjXov on ovK av dXXoi ye;
MEN. Ov flOL 8oK€L.
C 2n. Et 8e ye {jlt} SiSdaKaXot, oi3Se /xa^Tyrat;
MEN. Ao/cet /xoL ex^LV (Ls Xeyeis.
2n. 'Q/xoXoyT^Kanev 8e ye, Trpdyfiaros ov fxrJTe
Si8aa/caAo6 yuiyre fj,adrjTal elev, rovro firjhe 8i-
SaKTov etvat,;
MEN. 'Q.fjLoXoyqKafxev.
2n. Ou/cow dpeTTJs ovSafjiov <f>aLVOvrai SiSa-
a/caAot;
MEN. "Ecrrt Tttura.
Sn. Et Se' ye /at) StSaa/caAot, oi58e fiaO-qrai;
MEN. OatVerat ovrcus.
2n. Âperrj dpa ovk dv eh] StBaKTOv;
D MEN. Oy/c eoiKev, eiTrep opdcbs r}fJ.€LS iaKepL-
/xeda. axrre /cat davfidô) 87^, cS Scu/cpare?,
TTorepov TTore 01)8' dyaôi ai'8/3es', '^ riV ai/
etcrtv
et?^ rpoTTOS TTJs yevdaecDS tcov dyaOdJv yiyvofievcov
2n. KivSwevofiev, c5 Mei'aiv', eya> re Kal av

(f)avXoL TLves etvat dvBpes, Kal ere re Fopy ta? ov^
LKavcos TTeTTaiBevKevai /cat e/xe YlpoBiKos. Travros
fiaXXov ovv TTpoaeKT€ov rov vovu rjplv avrols, /cat
tpTjrririov oans i^/xa? evt ye tco rpoTTO) êXnovs
E TTOtT^cref Ae'yoj Be ravra d-no^Xeipas Trpog rrjv
dpri t^rinqaiv, d>s KarayeXdcrrcos
ripids eXade
OTL ov fj,6vov eTnarrjyLrjs rjyovfxevrjs opOcbs re /cat
ev TOis dvOpcoTTOis TTpdrreraL rd TrpdypLara, fj^
tacDS Kal Biaêvyei rjfjLds to yvdjvai, Tiva irore
TpoTTOV yiyvovrai ol dyadol dvBpes.
MEN. IlcDs" rovro Xeyets, c5 IjcoKpares
^ iQ Madvig : i) mss.
356
MENO
who are themselves good and honourable are teachers
of the subject, clearly no others can be ?
MEN. I agree.
soc. And if there are no teachers, there can be
no disciples either ?
MEN. I think that statement is true.

soc. And we have admitted
that a thing of which
there are neither teachers nor disciples cannot be
taught ?
MEN. We have.
soc. So nowhere are any teachers of virtue to be
found ?
MEN. That is so.
soc. And if no teachers, then no disciples ?
MEN. So it appears.
soc. Hence
virtue cannot be taught ?
MEN. It seems
likely, if our investigation is
correct. And that makes me wonder, I must say,
Socrates, whether perhaps there are no good men
at all, or by what possible sort of process good people
can come to exist ?
soc. I fear, Meno, you and I are but poor creatures,
and Gorgias has been as faulty an educator of you
as Prodicus of me. So our first duty is to look to
ourselves, and try to find somebody who will have
some means or other of making us better. I say
this with special reference to our recent inquiry,
in which I see that we absurdly failed to note that
not only through the guidance of knowledge that
it is
human conduct is right and good and it is probably ;
owing to this that we fail to perceive by what

means good men can be produced.
MEN. To what are you alluding, Socrates ?
357
. . ; ; ,
PLATO
3n, *Q8€" oTi fjiev Tovs dyaOovs avhpa^ Set
(h(f>eXiiiovs elvai, opdcbs (LixoXoyi^Kaficv tovto
97 ye, OTi ovK av oAAcos' ^xor 17 ydp;
MEN. Nat.
2n. Kat OTt ye wcfieXifioi, eaovrai, av opOoJs
rifiZv TjycovTai rcbv TrpaynaTCov, /cai tovto ttov
/caAcDs" cofioXoyoOfxev
MEN. Nai.
2n. "On S' OVK eaTiv opOcbs rjyeladaL, eav
[MT] (fjpOVlflOS flj
TOVTO OfXOLOL €(TfJI,€V OVK OpdoiS
wfioXoyrjKoaLV
MEN. ncD? S17 [op^cD?] Xiyeis
2n. 'Eya> epcD. et tis elhcjs ttjv 6S6i> ttjv
els Adptaav t] ottol ôvXei dXXoae âhit,OL koI
dXXoLS -qyoLTO, dXXo tl opOcos dv Kal ev rjyoLTo;
MEN. Udvv ye.
B 2n. Tl 8' €1 Tl? opddJs fxev Sofa^cov, t^ti?
eoTLV 7) ooos, eArjAvocDS oe {Jbij fj,7]o eTTiaTafxevos
ov Kal ovTOS av opdcos "qyolTo;
MEN. Ilai'y ye.
2n. Kat eojs y av ttov 6p9rjv Soâv exj) Trepl
(OV 6 eTepos eTTLaTTipLriv , ovhev ;êi/36t)V rfyepicbv
ecrrat, oio/xevo? fxev dXrjdi], <j>pova)v Se ii-q, tov
TOVTO (f)pOVOVVTOS
MEN. OvSev ydp.
2n. Aoâ apa dXrjdrjs trpos opdoTrjTa Trpdêcos
ovSev ;êtpajv T]yefxd)v (fjpovâecos' Kal tovto eoTLV
o vvvSrj TTapeXeLTTOfiev ev ttj irepl rfjs dpeTrjs
C OKeifjei, OTTOLOV Tt €117, XeyovTes on (f)p6v7]aLs
fiovov rjyelTaL tov opdcJbs TrpaTTeiv to Be dpa
Kal Soâ ^v oAi^^t;?.
358
MENO
soc. I mean that good men must be useful : we
were right, were we not, in admitting that this
must needs be so ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. And in thinking that they will be useful if
they give us right guidance in conduct : here also,
I suppose, our admission was correct ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. But our assertion that it is impossible to give
right guidance unless one has knowledge looks very
like a mistake.
MEN. What do you mean by that ?
soc. I will tell you. If a man knew the way to
Larisa, or any other place you please, and walked
there and led others, would he not give right and
good guidance ?
MEN. Certainly.
soc. Well, and a person who had a right opinion
as to which was the way, but had never been there
and did not really know, might give right guidance,
might he not ?
MEN. Certainly.
soc. And so long, I presume, as he has right
opinion about that which the other man really knows,
—
he will be just as good a guide if he thinks the
—
truth instead of knowing it as the man who has the
knowledge.
MEN. Just as good.
soc. Hence true opinion is as good a guide to
Tightness of action as knowledge ; and this is a
point we omitted just now in our consideration of
the nature of virtue, when we stated that knowledge
is the only guide of right action ; whereas we find
there is also true opinion.
359
; . ;
PLATO
MEN. "EotKe ye.
2n. apa rjrrov
OvBev wêXu/xov iariv opdr)
Soâ €7n(mjp,r)s
MEN. ToaovTO) ye, cS Ticokpares,on 6 pikv
rrjv eTTLarrjpirjv ex<Ji>v del av eTnrvy)(dvoL, 6 8e
rriv opdrjv Soâv rore fxev av rvyyavoi, rore 8'
OV.
2n. Ylws Xeyeis; 6 del exojv opdrjv Soâv
ovK del rvyxdvoi, eojarrep opdd So^dôi;
MEN. AvdyKT] jxoL (f)aiveraL' coare davfidôj,
D c5 TtcoKpareg, rovrov ovrois exovrog, on B-q TTore
TToXi) nfiicorepa rj eTnarrjjJir] rrjs opdrjv So^rjs, /cat
St o n TO jxev erepov, to 8e erepov eanv avTcbv.
2n. OlaOa oSv St' o rt 6avfidt,€is, 7] iyw croi
e LTTO)
MEN. WdvV y' 61776.
2n. "On rot? AatSaAoy dydXpLaaiv ov Trpoa-
eax^Kas rov vovv taojs Se ouS' eart Trap' Vfxtv.
MEN. Ylpog n 817 TOVTO Xeyeis
Se
2n. 'Ort /cat raura, eat* /xev /ii^ SeSe/xeVa i),
aTToStSpaa/cet /cat hpanerevei, eav Se SeSe/xeVa,
TTapa/jieveL.
E MEN. Ti ow Sry;
2n. Tcoi' eKeivov TroirjpLarcov XeXvfxevov p,ev
eKTrjadai ov ttoXXtjs nvos dîov ecrn TLfxrjs, oiairep
Spanerrjv dvOpcoTTOV ov yap Trapafievef SeSefxe-
vov Se TToXXov dîov ttovv yap KoXd to, epya
eari. 77/30$" ri ovv 8r) Xeyco ravra; Trpos rds
Soâs rds dXrjdets. Kal yap at Sofat at dAr^êts',
* Cf. Euthyphro 1 1 Socrates pretends to believe the old

.
legend according to which Daedalus, the first sculptor, con-

.^60
MENO
MEX. So it seems.
soc. Then right opinion is just as useful as
knowledge.
MEN. With this difference, Socrates, that he who
has knowledge will always hit on the right way,
whereas he who has right opinion will sometimes
do but sometimes not.
so,
How do you mean ? Will not he who always
soc.
has right opinion be always right, so long as he
opines rightly ?
MEX. appears to me that he must

It and there- ;
fore I wonder, Socrates, this being the case, that

knowledge should ever be more prized than right
opinion, and why they should be two distinct and
separate things.
soc. Well, do you know why it is that you wonder,
or shall I tell you ?
MEN. Please tell me.

soc. It is because you have not observed with
attention the images of Daedalus.^ But perhaps
there are none in your country.
MEN. What is the point of your remark ?
soc. That if they are not fastened up they play
truant and run away ; but, if fastened, they stay
where they are.
MEN. Well, what of that ?
soc. To possess one of his works which is let
loose does not count for much in value ; it will not
stay with you any more than a runaway slave :
but when fastened up it is worth a great deal,

for his productions are very fine things And to
what am I referring in all this ? To true opinions.
trived a wonderful mechanism in his statues by which they

could move.
361
; . .
PLATO
oaov jxev av -^povov Trapaixevoiai, koXov to xPVH''^
98 /cat TTavra rayada ipydtôvrai,' ttoXvv Se XP'^^^^
OVK iOeXovoL Trapa/xeVetv, dAAa hpaTrerevovaiv ck
rrjs 'pvxrjs rov dvdpa)TTOv, ware ov ttoXXov dîai
CLGLv, eojs av tls avrds S-qarj alrias Aoy tCT/xa)
TOVTO 8' iariv, ^'iivcov eTolpe, dvdfxvrjGLs, cos ev
Tols TTpoadev TjULV ihfjLoXoyrjTai. ineLSdu 8e Se-
ucoaL, TTpoJTov fxcv eTTiaTrjjxai yiyvovrai, eVetTa
fxovtfxof Kal Sta ravra Sr] TLfMicorepov eTnarT^fir]
opdrjs So^Tjs icTTL, /cat Staêpet Sea/ioi eTTLarrjp.iq
opdrjs 86^r]s.
MEN. N17 TOP Ala, J) Sco/cpare?, eoi/ce roiovro)
TivL
B 5n. Kai fXTjv /cat iyoj co? oj3/c eiSco? Aeyco,
aAA' eLKa^cuv otl 8e cctti Tt dAAotoi' dp^T) 8dâ
/cat ov irdw jxol So/cdi rovro et/cdêiv',
eTTiaTTJu-q,
dAA' €L7T€p Tt dAAo (f>aLr)v dv et8eVai, oAtya 8' dt"
(f)aLT]v, ev 8' ow Kat tovto eKeivoiv detrjv dv cov
olBa.
MEN. Kat opdtbs ye, c5 Sco/cpaTej, Aeyei?.
2n. Tt 8e;Td86 ou/c opdcos, on dXrjdrjS 8dâ
T^yovfJievr) to epyov eKdaTrjg tyjs irpdêcos ovSev
X^tpov aTTepydêrai r) eTnar-qixr)

MEN. Kat rovro hoKels fioi dXrjdrj Xeyeiv.
C 2n. Ou8ei' dpa dp^T^ 8dâ iTnar-q[xr]s ^êipov
ovSe rjrrov wcfteXifir] ecrrat et? rag Trpdêty, ou8e
dn^p d €x<jov dpdr^v hoâv -q 6 imar-qix-qv
MEN. "Eari TaiJra.
5fl. Kat fxrjv o ye dyados dvrjp tti0eAtp,os
•f]p,iv (LfxoXoyrjrai elvai.
362
MENO
For these, so long as they stay with us, are a
fine possession, and effectthat is good
all ; but
they do not care to stay for long, and run away
out of the human soul, and thus are of no great value
until one makes them fast with causal reasoning.
And this process, friend Meno, is recollection, as
in our previous talk we have agreed. But when
once they are fastened, in the first place they turn
into knowledge, and in the second, are abiding.
And this is why knowledge is more prized than
right opinion the one transcends the other by its
:
trammels.
MEN. Upon my word, Socrates, it seems to be
very much as you say.
soc. And indeed I too speak as one who does not
know but only conjectures yet that there is a differ-
:
ence between right opinion and knowledge is not at

all a conjecture with me but something I would
particularly assert that I knew there are not
:
many things of which I would say that, but this one,

at any rate, I will include among those that I know.
ME\. Yes, and you are right, Socrates, in so saying.
soc. Well, then, am I not right also in saying that
true opinion leading the way renders the effect of
each action as good as knowledge does ?
MEN. There again, Socrates, I think you speak the
truth.
So that right opinion will be no whit inferior
soc.
to knowledge in worth or usefulness as regards our
actions, nor will the man who has right opinion be
inferior to him who has knowledge.
MEN. That is so.
soc. And you know that the good man has been
admitted by us to be useful.
363
PLATO
MEN. Nai.
5n. lETreiSTj roivvv ov jxovov Si* eTTtaTTîxiqv
ayadol avSpeg av etev Tat? iroXeaiv,
/cat oxêXiiioi
e'lTTep eiev, dXXa Kal St' opdrjv Soâv, tovtolv Se
ovBerepov (f)va€L earl rots dvOpconoLS, ovTe ini-

D anqpLT) ovre Sdâ dXrjd-qs, ovr^^ €7TLKT7]ra
7J
So/cet —
aoL (f)va€t. oTTorepovovv avrolv evtau;
MEN. OvK efMotye.
2n. OvKovv e7T€t,Srj ov ^vaei, ovSe ol dyadol
<j)va€i elev dv.
MEN. Ov hrJTa.
2n. 'ETretS?) §e ye ov <j>vaei, iaKorrovfiev to
fierd TOVTo, ei StBaKTov iariv.
MEN. Nat.
2n. OvKovv StSa/cTOJ/ eSoêv elvai, el <j>p6vT]aL9
rj dpeTiq;
MEN. Nat.
2n. Kav et ye StSa/croi' et?^, (ftpovqaig dv elvai;
MEN. riavK ye.
2n. Kai et jiteV ye StSaa/caAoi etev, BtSaKTov
E ai' ett'at, p.r) ovtcov Se oi) StSa/crdv;
MEN. OvTCOS.
2n. 'AAAd /A7)v (hfxoXoyiJKafiev firj etvai avrov
SiSaaKaXovs ;
MEN. "EcTTi ravra.
2n. 'QfMoXoyqKafxev dpa /xi^re StSaKTOV ayro
/xT^re (f)p6vr)aLv elvai;
MEN. Ilai'i; ye.
2n. 'AAAo. /LtT^v dya^dv ye auro o/xoXoyovfjiev
etvac;
MEN. Nat.
^ CvT"' Apelt : oCt' MS9.
S64
—
MENO
MEN. Yes.
soc. Since then it is not only because of know-
ledge that men will be good and useful to their
country, where such men are to be found, but also
on account of right opinion and since neither of ;
—
these two things knowledge and true opinion
is a natural property of mankind, being acquired
ordo you think that either of them is natural ?
MEN. Not I.
soc. Then if they are not natural, good people
cannot be good by nature either.
MEN. Of course not.
soc. And since they are not an effect of nature,
we next considered whether virtue can be taught.
MEN. Yes.
soc. And we thought it teachable if virtue is
wisdom ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. And if teachable, it must be wisdom ?
MEN. Certainly.
soc. And if there were teachers, it could be
taught, but if there were none, it could not }

MEN. Quite so.
soc. But surely we acknowledged that it had no
teachers ?
MEN. That is true.

soc. Then we acknowledged it neither was taught
nor was wisdom ?
MEN. Certainly.
soc. But yet we admitted it was a good ?
MEN. Yes.
VOL. IV N S65
;
PLATO
2n. ^Q.(j>e.\inov Se /cat ayadov elvai to opdcbs
Tjyovfjievov
MEN. Udvv ye.
2n. Ôpdcos §€ ye 'qyeladai 8vo ovra ravra
99 fJiova, S6âi> re dXr]drj /cat eTnariqixrjv , d exoiv
dvdpcoTTOS opdcog rjy eiTai. rd yap diro rvx^S
yiyvofjueva ovk dvdpojTTLvr] 'qye/xovLa yiyveraf cov 8e
dvOpojTTOs rfyepLcov eariv eirl to dpdov, Svo raura,
8oâ dXrjdrjg Kal imaTT^fir}.
MEN. Ao/Cet p,0(. OVTCOS.
2n. OvKovv eTreihrj ov StSa/crov eoTiv, ouS'
eTTLaTTjfxr) Brj ert yiyveTai rj dpeTifj;
MEN. Oj) âiveTai.
B 5n. Ayoiv' d'pa ovtolv dyadoZv koL (h(f)eXifXOiv to
[jL€V eTepov aTToAeAyrat, /cat oi5/<r dv etr) ev tto-
XiTiK-fj Trpdêi eTTLaTTifXT] rjyejxcov.

MEN. Ov fXOl 8oK€L.
2n. Ovk dpa ao(j)ia Tivl oj)8e ao(f)ol ovTeg ot
ToiovTOL dvhpes rjyovvTO rats' TToXeaiv, ol dp,(f)L
Oe/xtCTTOKAea re Kal ovg dpTi "AvvTog dSe eXeye-

8to Kal ovx OLOL re a'AAous' TTOteXv toiovtovs o'lol
avTOL etatv, S/re ov St' €7naTT]ixr]v 6vt€s tolovtoi.
MEN. "Eot/cer OVTCOS ^X^''^> ^ ^coKpaTeSy cos
Xeyeis.
2n. OvKOvv el fir] eTnaTijp.r), evSo^ta Sr] to
C XoLTTOv yiyveTai- fj
ol ttoXltlkoI dvhpes ;)(/>a>/xevot
Tas TToXeis dpOovaiv, ovhev SLa(f)ep6vTOJS exovTes

vpos TO ^poveZv T] ol ;)^/37ô'jLt6j8ot T6 /cat ot deo-
fiavTeis' Kal yap ovtol Xeyovai fiev dXrjdi] Kal
TToXXd, taaai 8e ovSev Sv Xeyovaiv.
S66
MENO
soc. And that which guides rightly is useful and
good ?
MEN. Certainly.
soc. And that there are only two things true —
—
opinion and knowledge that guide rightly and a
man guides rightly if he have these for things that
;
come about by chance do not occur through human

guidance but where a man is a guide to what is
;
—
right we find these two things true opinion and
knowledge.
MEN, I agree.
soc. Well now, since virtue is not taught, we no
longer take it to be knowledge ?
MEN. Apparently not.
soc. So of two good and useful things one has
been rejected: knowledge cannot be our guide in
political conduct.
MEN. think not.
I
soc. Therefore it was not by any wisdom, nor
because they were wise, that the sort of men we
—
spoke of controlled their states Themistocles and
the rest of them, to whom our friend Anytus was
referring a moment ago. For this reason it was
that they were unable to make others like unto
—
themselves because their qualities were not an
effect of knowledge.
MEN. The case is probably as you say, Socrates.
soc. And if not by knowledge, as the only alter-
native it must have been by good opinion. This is
the means which statesmen employ for their direc-
tion of states, and they have nothing more to do
with wisdom than soothsayers and diviners for ;
these people utter many a true thing when inspired,

but have no knowledge of anything they say.
367
PLATO
MEN. }^lvSvV€V€L OWTCO? €X€LV.
2n. OvKOVv, a> yLeviov, d^Lov rovrovs Oetovs Ka-
Xetv Tovs dv^pas, OLTcves vouv fxrj exovres ttoWo, /cat
/xeyaAa Karopdovaiv oJv TrpdrrovaL /cat Xeyovaiv;
MEN. Udvv ye.
2n. 'Opdcos dp* dv KaXoLfxev delovs re, ovs
D vvvS-q iXeyofjiev xPV^f^V^^^^ '^"^ fxavreis /cat tovs
7TOi7]TiKov? aTTavras' Kal rovg ttoXltikovs ovx
TjKLara rovrcov (patfxev dv deiovs re elvai /cat
€vdovaidt,€LV, eTTLTTVOvg dvras /cat Karexop-ivovs
e/c rov deov, orav Karopdcbai Xeyovres troXXd
/cat jLteyaAa 7Tpdyp,ara, p,rjB€v elBores (Jiv Xeyovaiv.
MEN. Yidvv ye.
tCi. Kat at ye yvvaiKes S-qnov, co Mei^cup', rov?
ayadous dvSpag deiovs KoXovof /cat ol Aa/cojve?
OTOV TLvd iyKOJ/jitdôjaLV dyadov dvSpa, Oelos
dvrjp, (f)aaLV, ovrog.
E MEN. Kat <j>aivovrai ye, a> HcoKpares, opdcog
Xeyecv. /catVot tacos "Avvros obe aoi dxderai
Xeyovn.
2n. OuSet'
pLeXei e/xotye. rovrcp fiev, co Me-
vcov, avdis BiaXeôpêOa' el Se vvv rjpels ev
/cat
TTOvrl rep Xoycp rovrco /caAcDs" e^rjr-qoapev re Kat
IXeyopiev, dperr] dv €lt] ovre ^vaet ovre StSa/crov,
aAAa êto. p,oipa 7Tapayiyvop,evr] dvev vov, ols
100 dv TTapayiyvrjr at, el pîj ris etrj rotovros rd>v
TToXirtKajv dvBpdJv, otos /cat aAAoi' TTOirjaai ttoAi-
riKOV. el Se etr^, axeSov dv ti ovros Xeyoiro
TOLOvros ev rots ^dJcnv, olov €(f>r) "Op,rjpos ev
rots redvedjai rov Teipeaiav elvai, Xeycov Trept
avrov, on olos TreTTVvraL rd>v ev "AtSoy, at Se
a/ctat dtaaovai. r avrov dv /cat evddSe 6 roiovros
368
MENO
MEN, I daresay that is so.
soc. And may we, Meno, rightly call those men
divine who, having no understanding, yet succeed
in many a great deed and word ?
MEN. Certainly.
soc. Then we shall be right in calling those di\-ine
of whom we spoke just now as soothsayers and
prophets and all of the poetic turn ; and especially
we can say of the statesmen that they are divine
and enraptured, as being inspired and possessed of
God when they succeed in speaking many great
things, while knowing nought of what they say.
HEX. Certainly.
soc. And the women too, I presume, Meno, call
good men divine and the Spartans, when they
;
—
eulogize a good man, say " He is a divine person."
MEN'. And to all appearance, Socrates, they are
right though perhaps our friend Anytus may be
;
annoyed at your statement.

soc. For my part, I care not. As for him, Meno,
we will converse with him some other time. At
the moment, if through all this discussion our queries
and statements have been correct, virtue is found to
be neither natural nor taught, but is imparted to us
by a divine dispensation without understanding in
those who receive it, unless there should be some-
body among the statesmen capable of making a
statesman of another. And if there should be
any such, he might fairly be said to be among the
living what Homer says Teiresias was among the
—
dead " He alone has comprehension the rest are ;
flitting shades."^ In the same way he on earth, in
> Od. X. +94.
869
PLATO
cScTTrep TTapa aKLa<; dXrjdeg av Trpdyfia etrj irpos
dpcT-qv.
B MEN. KaAAiara SoKclg fxot Xeyeiv, w HtxyKpares.
2n. 'E/C fM€U ToivVV TOVTOV TOV XoyiajJLOV , (L
MeVo)!', deia fxoipa rjfjilv (jyaiverai TrapayLyvofxevr)

Tj dperrj olg TrapayiyveTaf ro 8e aa(f)eg nepi
avTov orav rtplv cotlvl rpoTTU) rots
elaofjieda t6t€,
dvdpcoTTOis TTapayiyverai dperrj, rrpoTepov CTn)(€i-
p-qacoyiev avro Kad" avro t,7]relv ri ttot eariv
dpeTq. vvv 8' e/iot yckv ojpa ttol livai, av 8e
ravra direp avros TreVeiaat ireWe Kal rov êvov
TovSe "Avvrov, tva -n-paoTepo? fj' ct)? eav TretoTys
TOVTOV, eoTLV 6 TL Kal * Adrjvaiovs dvryaeis.
370
MENO
respect of virtue, will be a real substance among
shadows.
MEN. I think you put it excellently, Socrates.
soc. Then the result of our reasoning, Meno, is
found to be that virtue comes to us by a divine
dispensation, when it does come. But the certainty
of this we shall only know when, before asking in
what way virtue comes to mankind, we set about
inquiring what virtue is, in and by itself. It is
time now for me to go my way, but do you per-
suade our friend Anytus of that whereof you are now
yourself persuaded, so as to put him in a gentler
mood for if you can persuade him, you will do a
;
good turn to the people of Athens also.
371
EUTHYDEMUS
VOL. IV n2
INTRODUCTION TO THE EUTHYDEMUS
This dialogue isremarkable amongst Plato's writ-
ings for the keenness and brilliance of its comic satire.
In the main it is a relentless exposure of the
" eristic " or disputatious side of the higher educa-
tion which was fashionable at Athens towards the
end of Socrates' life :the plot of the Uttle drama
is designed to ridicule the mischievous quibbles of
two professors who are trying to captivate the mind

of a handsome and promising youth. But at the
same time it is plainly the work of an ardent teacher
of philosophy, who is clearing the ground for the
construction of what we now call a system of logic.
The spurious argumentation of certain popular
sophists had to be demolished before the Socratic
method of " dialectic " could be exhibited in its full
dignity and value.
There are good reasons for believing that the
Euthydemus was written and published after the
—
Protagoras and Meno, about 390 b.c. some ten
years after the death of Socrates, and not long
before Plato founded the Academy in 387. Beneath
all its mockery and laughter runs an eager tone of
protest, which is only half muffled by the genial
banter of Socrates. His manner towards the
professors is throughout deferential and diffident,
but the famous " irony " only serves to bring out
375
PLATO
in sharper relief the unscrupulous audacity of these
sham philosophers. After allowing for some artistic
selection and we may probably take
intensification,
it as a truthful picture of the actual Socrates in
contrast with two attractive and successful educators
of the day but we cannot help perceiving also the
:
zeal for true education which is steadily impelling

Plato himself towards his high and responsible
position in the intellectual world.
The form of the dialogue is notable in itself,
for it is the only instance in Plato of a narrated
conversation which is broken by remarks of the
hearer (Crito) upon the story as told by Socrates,
who discusses it with him. The account of the
contest with the two sophists is moreover followed
by some serious talk between Socrates and his
friend about a person who stands half-way between
philosophy and politics, and who has hastily spurned
the former of these pursuits after listening to Euthy-
demus and Dionysodorus. Whether (as seems prob-
able) the reference is to Isocrates, or to someone
else, this epilogue serves to point the important moral
that, despite the unworthiness of her ministers,
Philosophy abides, ever undefiled, august and
supreme. In relation to her, the half-way men are
as worthless as her showy professors. It seems likely
that Plato felt some apprehension lest the dramatic
and literary skill with which he had represented,
through the mouth of Socrates, the verbal antics
of the two sophists had endangered the impression
which he wished to leave of his master's and his own
—
great interest in life the right education of able
and aspiring youth. Thus the whole piece is to
be regarded as a comedy annotated, as it were,
S76
INTRODUCTION TO THE EUTHYDEMUS
with a \-iew to serious instruction, or an educational
manifesto half concealed by lively scenes of satirical
drama. Its art is entertaining in itself, and significant
also for an understanding of the Aristophanic side
of Plato's nature. Its real meaning, however, shows
him treading in the steps of Socrates, and especially
developing for his o^vn ends his departed master's
views on rhetoric and politics.
A useful modern edition of the Euthydemus by

E. H. Gilford was published by the Clarendon Press,
Oxford, in 1905.
S77
ET0TAHMOS
[h EPI2TIK02* ANATPEHTIKOS]
TA TOT AIAAOrOT nPOSfiHA

KPITON, 2nKPATH2, ET0TAHMO2, AI0NT20AnP02,
KAEINIA2, KTH2inn02
St.
J.
KPI. Tls 'qv, c5 TicoKpares, (S X^^^ ^^ AvKcico
SieAeyou; rj ttoXvs vfzds oxôs TrepieLar-qKei, coctt'
eycoye ôvXopLevos a.Kov€i,v TrpoaeXdojv ovSeu otos t'
^ OLKOvaai aa(f)€S' vrrepKui/jas pbevroi KareZhov, Kai
fjiot cBoêv elvai êvos rig, a> SteAe'yoy. tls '^v;
2n. Horepov kol ipcoras, (v K^plrcov; ov yap
els, dXXa Sy' -qarrjv.
KPI. "Ov fJi€V eyoj Xeyoj, €K Se^tds rpiTOs oltto
B (Jov Kadrjaro' iv fieaco 8' vficov to 'A^to;ôu fxeipd-

KLov rjv. Kai fidXa ttoXv, co HcoKpaTes, eTrtSeSoi/ceVat
fioi ehoêv, Kai tov rjjjieTepov ov noXv Ti ttjv -qXiKLav
Sia(f)€p€i,v J^pLTOôvXov. ttAA eKGLVOS ficv okXt]-
(f>p6s, ovTOS Se 7Tpo(f)epris /cat KaXos /cat ayaôs" ttjv
OlpLV.
2n. oStos eoTLV, cL KptTcov, ov
EivdvSrjfxos
cpcoTas' 6 8e Trap e'/xe Kadi)pevos e^ dpcaTepds
dSeAô? TOVTOv, AiovvGoSwpos' pL€T4)(jei Se /cat
OVTOS TCOV XoycDV.
378
;
EUTHYDEMUS
[or on DISPUTATION: refutative]
CHARACTERS
Chito, Socrates, Eothydemus, Diontsodobus,
Cleinias, Ctesippus
cRi. Who was it, Socrates, that you were talking

with yesterday at the Lyceum ? Why, there was
such a crowd standing about you that when I came
up in the hope of hstening I could hear nothing
distinctly still, by craning over I got a glimpse,
:
and it appeared to me that it was a stranger with

whom you were talking. Who was he ?
soc. About which are you asking, Crito ? There

were two of them, not one.
CRI. The man whom I mean was sitting next but
one to you, on your right between you was
:
Axiochus' boy and he, Socrates, seemed to me to

:
have grown a great deal, so as to look almost the

âme age as my Critobulus, who is rather puny
whereas this boy has come on finely, and has a
noble air about him.
soc. Euthydemus is the person to whom you
refer, Crito, and the one sitting on my left was his
brother, Dionysodorus. He too takes part in our
discussions.
379
PLATO
KPl. OvSerepov yiyvcjaKoj, cS TicoKpares. Kawol
C TlVeS O-V OVTOL, OJS €OLK€, oo(f)i,aTai' TToSaTTOi; Kal
ris rj ao(f}La;
2n. OvToi TO
fi€v yevos, <bs €y<LfxaL, ivrevdev
TTodev eluLV Xtou, dTTWKrjaav 8e is Qovpiovs,
e/c
êvyovres 8e eKeWev ttoAA' ^'St^ errj Trepl Tovabe rovs

TOTTOUS" SiaTpLôvatv o Se cry epcoTas ttjv ao(f>iav
avTOLV, davfxaaia, w KptVcov TraaaocfiOi drexi^cbs t(o
ye, ovS 6 Ti eiev ol Tray k par laoTaL
rjSrj Trpo rov,
TovTco yap iarov KOfxihfj TrajM/xct^^co ov Kara, ru)
'AKapvdve iyeveadrju toj TrayKpaTiaaTa dSeA<^co*
D eKeivo) fiev yap ro) aanxari. fiovov oto) re iid)(êadaL'
TOVTOi Se TTpCOTOV fJL€V TCV ac6/XaTl SetVOTCtTtO
ioTOV Kal fJidxi), '§ rrdvrcDV eari KpareZv eV
ottXois yap avroi re ao(f)d) iravv fxdxâdai Kal
272 dXXov, OS dv StScp fxiadov, olio re TTOirjaaf eiretTa
T7]v iv TOLS hiKaarripiois Kal
fjbax'fjv KparioTOi
dyiDviaaaOai Kal dXXov SiSaât Kal Aeyetv re
avyypd<êadai Xoyovs otovs els Tct hiKaoTiqpLa.
npo rov ixev ovv ravra Seivci) rjar-qv fxovov, vvv Se
reXos eTTiredrjKarov rrayKpariaariKfj rixvrj. fj yap
rjv XoiTTT] avrolv p^d^f] dpyos, raijrrjv vvv eêipya-
adov, oiare p.r^^ dv eva avrols olov r elvai /mt^S'

dvrdpai,' ovrct) Seivoj yeyovarov iv rots Xoyois
fj,dx€adal. re Kal iêXeyxciv to del Xeyofievov, 6p.oiu}s
B idv re tpevSos idv re dXrjdes rj- iyd) p.ev ovv, cS
\{.piTajv, iv vo) exoi rolv dvBpolv jrapaSovvai ijxavrov
Kal ydp <f>arov iv oXiycp XP^^V TTOLrjaai dv Kal
1 The phrase refers especially to a very vigorous sport

which combined wrestling and boxing.
380
;
EUTHYDEMUS
CRi. Neither of them is known to me, Socrates.
A pair of fresh additions, I suppose, to our sophists.
Where do they hail from, and what science do they
profess ?
soc. By
birth I believe they belong to these parts,
that is to say, Chios they went out as colonists to
;
Thurii, but have been exiled thence and have spent

a good many years now in various parts of this
country. As to what you ask of their profession,
it is a wonderful one, Crito. These two men are
absolutely omniscient I never knew before what
:
" all-round sportsmen "^ were. They are a pair of

—
regular all-round fighters not in the style of the
famous all-round athletes, the two brothers of
Acamania ; they could fight with their bodies only.
But these two, in the first place, are most formidable
in body and in fight against all comers for they are —
not only well skilled themselves in fighting under
arms, but are able to impart that skill, for a fee, to
another and further, they are most competent
;
also to fight the battle of the law-courts and teach

others how to speak, or to have composed for them,
such speeches as may win their suits. Formerly
they had merely some ability for this but now they ;
have put the finishing touch to their skill as all-

round sportsmen. The one feat of fighting yet
unperformed by them they have now accomplished,
so that nobody dares stand up to them for a moment
such a faculty they have acquired for ^^•ielding words
as their weapons and confuting any argument as
readily if it be true as if it be false. And so I, Crito,
am minded two gentlemen's
to place myself in these
hands ;they say it would take them but a little
for
while to make anyone else clever in just the same way.
381
. . ;
PLATO
KPi. Tt Se, (L HcoKpares; ov <ô^rj ttjv -qXiKLav,
fxrj rjS-q Trpea^vrepog fj<s
2n. H/cicrTCt ye, c5 Vs^pircov iKavov reKixiqpLOV

e^co /cat TTapafxvdtou rod fxrj (fyoêladai. avrcb
yap rovro), (hs erros etTreli', yepovre ovre rjpid-
adrjv ravrrjg rrjs ao(f)ias, ^s eycoye eTndujxa), rrjg
C epiariKrjg' irepvaiv 7) Trpoirepvaiv ovSenco TJarrjv
ao<j>(x). dAA' eyoi ev fiovov (j)oôvpiai, /xr) aS
oveiSos roLv êvoiu TrepLaiJjco, ojorrep YJ)Vvij^ rep
Mr^rpo^Lov, ro) Kidapiarfj, os ifxe StSaa/cet eVt Kal
vvv Kidapitêiv'opwvres ovv ol TratSe? ol aviJi<f)OL-
rr^ral fiov epLOV re KarayeXcom Kal rov }^6vvov
KaXovai yepovroSiSdcrKaXov firj ovv /cat rolv .
êvoiv Ti? ravro rovro oveiSlarj' ol 8' avro rovro

taaJ9 c/)oPovfievoi rdâ fxe ovk av ideXoLev Trpoa-
Seâadat. eyco 8', fxev dX-
cu Kplrcou, eKelae
Xov? TTeneiKa avfjLfxaOrjrds p.oL <f>oirav Trpea^vras,
D evravda Be ye erepovs Tretpacro/xat rreldeiv. Kal
(TV ri ov avjjLôLrag ; cos"' 8e hiXeap avrolg dôêv
rovg GOVS vie Is eîefxevoi yap eKeivoiv otS' on

'
Kal rjfids TTatSevGovcTLv

KPI. 'AAA' ovSev KO)Xv€L, CO JjcoKpares, edv ye
aol hoKjj. TTpaJrov Se jxoi SiijyrjaaL rrjv ao(j)iav
roLV dvSpoLV ris eariv, tva etSco o ri Kal jJiadrj-
aofxeda
2n. Ovk dv
<l>9dvois aKovcov d)s ovk av ejôt/xi
ye eLTTeZv, on
ov repoaelxov rov vovv avrolv, dXXd
rrdvv Kal TTpoaei-)(ov Kal jxejxvripLai, Kai aoi veipa-
E aojxaL e^ dpxrjs drravra Sir^yqaaaOai. Kara deov
* So Winckelmann : aii tL ttov o-uMôiVa t(rais iiss.
382
EUTHYDEMUS
CRI. What, Socrates ! Are you not afraid, at
your time of life, that you may be too old for that
now ?
soc. Not at all, Crito I have enough proof and

:
reassurance to the contrary. These same two

persons were little less than old men at the time of
their taking up this science, which I desire to have,
of disputation. Last year, or the year before,
they were as yet without their science. The only
thing I am afraid of is that I may bring the same
disgrace upon our two visitors as upon Connus, son
of Metrobius, the harper, who is still trying to
teach me the harp so that the boys who go to his
;
lessons with me make fun of me and call Connus

" the gaffers' master." This makes me fear that
someone may make the same reproach to the two
strangers ; and, for aught I know, their dread of
this very thing may make them unwilling to accept
me. So, Crito, just as in the other case I have
persuaded some elderly men to come and have
lessons with me, in this affair I am going to try and
persuade another set. Now you, I am sure, will
come with me to school and we will take your sons
;
as a bait to entice them, for I have no doubt that

the attraction of these young fellows will make them
include us also in the class.
CRI. I have no objection, Socrates, if you think
fit to do so. But first you must explain to me what
is the science these men profess, that I may know
what it is we are going to learn.

soc. You shall be told at once ; for I cannot
plead that I did not give them my attention, since
I not only attended closely but remember and will
try to expound the whole thing from the beginning,
383
.
PLAIO
yap Tiva ervôv Kad-qixevos evravOa, oSrrep av fie
cfSes", iv TO) aTTohvrrjpicp puovog, Kac r]8rj iv va>
elxov dvaarrjvaL- dvLarafievov Se fiov iyevero to
elcodos to haipLoviov
aripêlov ttoXlv ovv e/ca-
.
273 deSôfxrjv, Kal oXlycp varepov elaepxâdov tovtco,

6 t' KvOvSrjjjios Kai 6 AiovvcroSajpos, Kai aAAoi
fiadrjTal dpua av ttoXXol i/xol Sokclw elaeXdovre
8e TTepieTTareirrjV iv rep Karaareytp Spojxcp. Kal
OVTTO} TOVTCO Sv*^ TpeiS SpOfXOVS 7T€pLeXT)Xv96T€
rjaTrjv, Kal claepx^rat KXetvias, ov av (j)r]s ttoXv
eTTtSeSoj/ceVai, dXrjdri Xeycov omadev Se avTOV
epaoTal ttovv ttoXXoI t€ dXXoL Kal RrT^criTrTro?,
veaviaKos ti? Yiaiavievg, fxdXa KaXos re KayaOos
TTjV (f)vaiv, oaov firj vPpiaTrjs Sid to veos CLvai.
B ISwv ovv /xe o K.XeivLas dno Tjjg eiaoSov puovov
Ka6-qpL€VOV , dvTiKpvs ld)v TTapcKadeêTO e/c Seîds,
cooTTep Kal av (f>^S' lSovtc 8e auroi^ o re Aiovv-
aoScopos Kal 6 lS,vdvST]p,og rrpwTOV fiev emaTavTe
hteXeyead-qv dXX'qXoiv, dXXr]v /cat dXXrjv drro-
^XeTTOVTC els 'qp^ds' Kal yap rrdvv avTolv Trpoa-
eZôv Tov vovv eneiTa lovTe o p,ev Trapa to
pLeipaKiov eKadeêTO, 6 EivdvSrjpios, 6 Se Trap
avTov efxk iv dpiarepd' oi S' aAAot cus eKaaTos
iTvyx^-vev
C 'HcTTraô/LtTyv ovv avTih are Sia XP^^*^^ icopaKms'
pbeTa Se Tovro elirov Trpog tov KAetrtW, ^Q. KAeivia,
TCuSe pievTOi TO) dvhpe aocfxx}, ^vdvhrjpios re /cat
^Lovvaohcopos , ov rd a/xLKpd, dXXd rd pêydXa' Ta
^ This gymnasium (the Lyceum) was a pubhc one, open
to persons of all ages, and was a common resort of Socrates

and the sophists.
^ Socrates believed that his conduct was occasionally
S84
EUTHYDEMUS
By some providence I chanced to be sitting in the
place where you saw me, in the undressing-room ,i
alone, and was just intending to get up and go but
;
the moment I did so, there came mv wonted spiritual

sign.2 So I sat down again, and after a little while
—
these two persons entered Euthydemus and Dionv-
—
sodorus and accompanying them, quite a nimnber,
as it seemed to me, of their pupils the two men
:
came in and began walking round inside the cloister.^

Hardly had they taken two or three turns, when
in stepped Cleinias, who you say has come on so
much, and you are right behind him was a whole
:
troop of lovers, and among them Ctesippus, a young

fellow from Paeania, of gentle birth and breeding,
except for a certain insolence of youth. So when
Cleinias as he entered caught sight of me sitting there
alone, he came straight across and sat beside me on
my right, just as you say. Dionysodorus and Euthy-
demus, when they saw him, stood at first talking with
each other, and casting an occasional glance at us—
for my attention was fixed on them —
but then one
of them, Euthydemus, took a seat by the youth,
and the other next to me on my left the rest,
;
where each happened to find one.

So I greeted the two brothers, as not having seen
them for some time ; after that I said to Cleinias :
My dear Cleinias, these two men, you know, are

skilled not in httle things, but in great. For they
guided by a spiritual voice or sign peculiar to himself. Bv

lato's account it was always negative, but the present
instance shows how Xenophon might have some reason for
saying that it was sometimes positive.
^ The cloister ran round the central open court,
and was
reached by passing through the imdressing-roora.
385
.
PLATO
yap TTcpi Tov TToXe^xov Trdvra inLaTaadov, oaa Set
Tov fieXXovra arparr^yov eaeaOai, ra? re raêis"
Kai ras rjyefxoviag tcov cFrparoTreScov koI oaa ip
ottAoi? /Jidxeadai StSa/creov otco re Se Kai iroirjaai
Svvarov elvai avrov avTw ôrjOeXv ev rols St/ca-
aTiqpLOLs, dv rij avrov dSiKjj. €l7TU)V ovv ravTa
D KaTe(f)povr]drjV vtt' avrocv eyeXaadrrjv ovv dfx,<f)CO
^Xeifjovre etV aAAiÂo;, /cat o Eu^ySTj/xo? eiTTev'
OvToi en ravra, to HcoKpares, CTTrouSaô/Ltev, aAAa
TTapepyoLS avTols ;)(/366/xe0a. /cdycu Oavfidaag
eiTTOv KaAot' dv rt ro epyov vp,djv €irj, ei nqXi-
Kavra Trpay/jbara ndpepya v/jlIv rvyxdvei ovra, kol
77/00? êcDp' etTrerov ôt, ri eari rovro to KaXov.
ApeTiqv, €(j)rj, o) HcoKpares, olofxeOa otco t' etrat
TTapaSovvai /caAAtCTr' dvdpcoTTCov /cat Tdxtora.
E Q
Zeu, otoi', -î/ S' eycti, Xeyerov Trpdyfia- TTodev
TOVTO ro epfiaiov evperrjv;
8e Trept Vfxdjv iyco
Sievoovfirjv en, otairep vvv
eXeyov, d)s ro ttoXv
Sr)
rovro Seivolv ovroiv, ev oirXots p-dêadai, /cat ravr*
eXeyov irepl ctôjv ore yap ro rrporepov ineSr)-
p,r]aar7]v, rovro fMefxvrjixat a(f)d) eTrayyeXXofxevoj
et oe vvv dXT]6d)s ravrrjv rrjv eTTiarrnxr^v e^^TOV,
lAeo) etfjrov drexvcos yap eycoye a<j>d) voairep decj
TTpoaayopevo), avyyva)ixr]v Seo/xevos ^X^''^ /^°'' '''^^
274 e/jLTrpoadev elprjfxevojv . aAA' opdrov, <L Eu^yST^/xe
re /cat yap
fîovvaohcupe, el dXrjdrj eXiyerov vtto
rod fxeyedovs rov eTrayyeXfiaros ovSev davp,aar6v
aTTLcrreZv.
AAA ev 'ladi, u) TicoKpares, eârov, rovro
ovrcos ^xov.
Ma/ca/)t^6L» a/a' vfids eycoye rov KT^fxaros voXv
S86
;
EUTHYDEMUS
understand all about war, that is, as much as is
needful for him who is to be a good general both ;
the tactics and the strategy of armies, and all the

teaching of troops under arms and they can also
;
enable one to get redress in the law courts for a

wrong that one may have suffered.
When I had said this, I saw they despised me for
it, and they both laughed, looking at each other
then Euthydemus said No, no, Socrates, we do
:
not make those matters our business now ; we deal

with them as diversions.
At this Iwondered and said Your business must
:
be a fine one, if such great matters are indeed

diversions to you ; so I beseech you, tell me what
this fine business is.
Virtue, Socrates, he replied, is what we deem
ourselves able to purvey in a pre-eminently excellent
and speedy manner.
Good heavens, I exclaimed, a mighty affair
indeed Where did you have the luck to pick it
!
up ? I was still considering you, as I remarked

just now, to be chiefly skilled in fighting under arms,
and so spoke of you in those terms for when you :
visited our city before, this, I recollect, was the

profession you made. But if you now in truth
possess this other knowledge, have mercy you see
I address you just as though you were a couple of
—
gods, beseeching you to forgive my former remarks.
But make sure, Euthydemus and Dionysodorus,
that you spoke the truth for the vastness of your
:
promise gives me some excuse for disbelieving.

You may be sure, Socrates, they replied, it is as
we say.
Then I congratulate you on your acquisition far
387
PLATO
fidXXov rj jiiyav âaiXea rrj? dpxrjs' roaovSe 8e'
fxoi €L7T€Tov, el €v vcp cx^Tov CTnSeiKvvvai, Tavrr]v
rrjv ao(f)[av, iq TraJS" a(f)cpv êôvXevrai.
'Ett' avro ye rovro Trdpeafxev, <L HcoKpares, co?
B eTTiSecôvTe /cat SiSdôvre, edv Tt? eOeXr] pâvddveiv.

'AAA' on fxev edeX-qaovaiv diravTes ol firj exovres,
iyd) vfilv eyyvaJ/jLat,, Trpcoros" /xev eyco, eTretra 8e
KAetvta? ovTooi, rrpos 8' rjfilv Kr-qaLTnTos re oBe
Kal ol aAAot ovroL, rjv 8' eyco SeLKvvs avrco tovs
epacrrds rovs KXeLvtov ol 8e ervyxdvov rj/jids rjSrj
TTepLiardfievoL. 6 yap KxTycriTrTro? ervx^ TToppoj
Kadel,6fMevos rov K.XeLvtov, e/xol SoKeiv ws 8'
irvyxo-vev 6 ^vdvSrjfios efxol SiaXeyofievos TTpo-
Q vevevKd>s els to TrpoaOev, ev jxeao) ovrog -q/xdiv tov
KXeivLov erreaKOTei rto K.Tr}orL7T7r(x) rrjs êa?" ôv-
Xofxevos Te ovv dedcraadai 6 Krr^crtTrTros" to, TraiStKo.
Kal dpua (f)iXi]KOOS d)V dvaTrrjS-qaas npajros rrpoa-
eoTi-] rjp.lv ev ra> KaravriKpv' ovtcos ovv Kal ol
dXXoL eKeivov Ihovres TrepLearrjcrav r]p,ds, ol re rod

KAetvtou epaaral Kal ol tov Kvdv8-qp,ov re Kal
AiovvaoScopov iralpoi,. rovrovs Srj iyd) Sei/ciû?
eXeyov tcu KvOvS-q/xo), on Trdvres eroLp.oi elev
p,av6dveLV 6 re ovv Kr-qaLTTTTog (jvve<j)rj pdXa
D TTpodvfxcos Kal ol aAAot, Kal eKeXevov avrdy KOLvfj
Trdvres emheiâadaL ttjv 8vvap,t,v rrjs ao(f)las.
E 17701^ ovv eyco, ^Q. E,vdvSr]p,€ Kal AtovvcroScope,
Tidvv p.ev ovv TTOvrl rpoTTU) Kal tovtols ;;â/3tcracrôj^
Kal epLOV eveKa eTTiheiâTov. rd pev ovv TtXeZara

hrjXov on ovK oXlyov epyov eTTihelâL' Td8e he p.oi
CLTreTOV, TTorepov TreTreiapevov rjS-q, d)s XPV "^^9
vp,d)v fjLavddvetv, SvvaLod^ dv dyadov TTOifiaai dvSpa
E fiovov, iq Kal eKelvov rov pnqiroi TreTretapLevov 8td to
388
—
EUTHYDEMUS
more than I do the great king on his empire :
only tell me whether you intend to exhibit this
science of yours, or what you have determined to
do.
We are here for the very purpose, Socrates, of
exhibiting and expounding it to anyone who wishes
to learn.
Well, guarantee that all who do not possess it
I
will to
^vish —
myself to begin with, then Cleinias
here and, besides us, Ctesippus and all these
others, I said, showing him the lovers of Cleinias,
who were by this time standing about us. For
Ctesippus, as it happened, was sitting some way
from Cleinias, I noticed and by chance, as Euthy-
;
demus leant forward in talking to me he obscured

Ctesippus 's view of Cleinias, who was between us.
Then Ctesippus, desiring to gaze on his favourite
and being also an eager listener, led the way by
jumping up and placing himself opposite us ; and
this made the others, on seeing what he did, stand
around us, both Cleinias 's lovers and the followers of
Euthydemus and Dionysodorus. Pointing to these,
I told Euthydemus that they were all ready to leam ;
to which Ctesippus assented with great eagerness, and
so did the rest and they all joined in urging the
;
two men to exhibit the power of their wisdom.

On this I remarked My good Euthydemus and
:
Dionysodorus, you must do your very best to gratify

my friends and, for my sake also, to give us an
exhibition. To do it in full, of course, would ob\-iously
be a lengthy performance but tell me one thing
:
vriW you be able to make a good man of him only who

is already convinced that he should leam of you, or
of him also who is not yet so con\'inced, owing to
389
. ;
PLAIO
/Jbrj oieadai oAco? to Trpdyixa Trjv apeTrjV ixaBrjTov
eivat ri fxrj cr^cu elvaL avTrjg StSaaKraAo); (f)€pe, Kai
rov ovTcog eôvra rrjs avrrj^ rex^r}? epyov Trelaai,
cos /cat SiSaKTOV rj dperr] Kal ovTOt Vfiels eore.
Trap CUV civ KaXXiaTa tls avTO fiddoi, ^ aXXr^g;
TavTTjg jxev ovv, €(f)rj, ttjs avrijs, c5 2to/c/oare?, o
AiovvaoScvpos
'Y/xet? dpa, -^v S' iyo), o) AtovucrdScope, twv
vvv dvdpcoTTOJV /caAAtcrr' dv TrpoTpeifjaire els (f)i\o-
275 (joîav /cat dperrjs eTTLfieXeiav

Oio/Jieda ye 8-q, a) HcoKpares.
Tcl>v fjiev roivvv dXXojv rr]v eirlheiîv rifuv, e(f)r)V,
elaavdis drrodeadov, tovto 8' avro eTriheiâadov
TovTovl TOP veavLGKOv TTeiaarov, d)s XPV ^tAocro-
(f)eLV Kol dperijs eTTifMeXeladai, Kal pâptetaôp' ep-oi
re /cat rovToial Trdai. avfjLê^rjKe yap tl toiovtov

TO) fieipaKio) rovro)' eyd> re /cat otSe iravres
rvyxdvojjiev eTndvfiovvTes <jos êXrioTOV avrov
yevecrdai. eari 8e ovros Â^loxov puev vlos rov
B 'AA/ct^ta8oy Tov TraAatou, avraveifjcos 8e rov
vvv ovros ' AA/ct^taSou •
6vop.a 8' avro) KAetvta?.
eari 8e veos' <f>oôvp,e9a Br] Trepl avrcp, olov et/co?
TTepl vicp, jxrj ris <I>6tj rjp,ds evr' d'AAo tl eTTiTriSevixa
rpeiffas ttjv SidvoLav Kal hiacfideipr]. a(f)d) ovv -fJKe-
rov els KaXXiaTov dAA' et fXT] tl hia<j)epeL vfxlv,
Xdêrov Trelpav tov p.eipaKiov /cat SiaXexdTQTOv

ivavrlov rjfxcbv.
EtTTovTos" ovv ejxov axeSov ri avra ravra o

KvdvSrjfjios dfxa dvSpeicDs re Kal dappaXecos, 'AAA'
390
EUTHYDEMUS
an absolute disbelief that virtue is a thing that
can be learnt or that you are teachers of it ?
Come now, is it the business of this same art to
persuade such a man that \irtue is teachable and
that you are the men of whom one may best learn
it, or does this need some other art ?
No, this same one can do it, Socrates, said Dionyso-

dorus.
Then you two, Dionysodorus, I said, would be the
best persons now on earth to incite one to the pursuit
of knowledge and the practice of virtue ?
We think so, at least, Socrates.
Well then, please defer the display of all the rest
to some other occasion, I said, and exhibit this one
thing. You are to persuade this young fellow here
that he ought to ensue ^\^sdom and practise virtue,
and so you will oblige both me and all these present.
This youth happens to be in just the sort of con-
dition I speak of and I and all of us here are at
;
this moment anxious for him to become as good as

possible. He is the son of Axiochus, son of the former
Alcibiades,^ and is own cousin to the Alcibiades that
now is his name is Cleinias. He is young ; and so
:
we have fears for him, as well one may for a young

man, lest someone forestall us and turn his inclina-
tion to some other course of Ufe, and so corrupt
him. Hence your arrival now is most happy.
Come now, the same to you, make trial of
if it is all
the lad and talk with him in our presence.
When I had thus spoken, in almost these very
words, Euthydemus answered in a tone both manly
^ the famous Alcibiades, who died in 404 b.c. at the

i.e.
age of The supposed time of this discussion must be a
44.
year or two before Socrates' death (399 b.c).
391
. .
PLATO
C ovSev 8ia(f)ep€i, a) HcoKpares, ^<f>'^> ô-v fxovov
ideXrj aiTOKpiveadai 6 veaviaKOS.
'AAAct ixkv 817, €^7]v ly<x>, TovTo ye Kal eWicrraL'
dajxa yap avrw otSe Trpocnovreg ttoAAo, ipojTcoai.
T€ Kal StaAeyovrat, ware eTneiKcos Oappet to
OLTTOKptvaadai.
Td Srj fiera ravra, c5 Kplrojv, ttcos av koXcos
aoL SirjyrjaaLfjL-qv ; ov yap afXLKpov to epyov, Svva-
adai dvaXaêlv SteîovTa ao(j>iav afxrj-)(avov oar]V'
D oj(jT eycoye, Kaddirep at TTOi-qTai, heofxai o.pX^'
fievos TTJs Bir)yâ€cos Movaag re Kal Mv/nx-qv
eTTiKoXeladaf rjpâTO S' ovv ivdevSe 6
TTodev
^vdvS-qfjios , (x)s iycLfxat.- ^Q, KAetrt'a, noTepoL elai
TOJV dvdpCOTTCOV ol fiav6dv0VT€S, ol aO(f)ol 7] OL
djxadels;
Kat TO ixeipdKLov, are /xeyoAoy ovTog rov epco-
TrlfiaTos, rjpvdpiaae re Kal diroprjaa? e^Xerrev eis
i/xe' Kal iyd) yvoiig avTOV TeOopv^rjixevov , Qdppei.,
rjv eyo), c5 KXeivLa, Kol dTTOKptvai dvSpeioJS,
S'
E oTTOTcpd aoi <f>aiv€Tai.' lacos ydp tol coêAet ttjv
fieyiaTrjv (I)cf)eXetav
Kat iv TOVTO) 6 AiovvaoScopos TrpoaKVipag fxoi,
apLiKpov TTpos TO ovs, Trdvv fiecSidaas tco TrpoacoTTCo,

Kat p-riv, ^4'V> ^^^> ^ ^coKpaT€s, TrpoXdyco, otl
OTTOTep* dv dTTOKpivr]Tai to pbeipdKLOV, eêXeyx^^-
acTai.
Kai avTov fxeTo^v raura XeyovTos 6 KAetvta?
€tvx€V dTroKpivdfxevos , a>aT€ ovSe TrapaKeXevaaadai
276 /iot e^€y€V€TO evXa^7]drjvat to) fieLpaKtco, dXX
drreKpLvaTO, otl ol ao(f>ol etev ol fiavdavovTes
Kat o KvOvBrjfxos, KaAet? 8e rtva?, €(f)r], 8t8a-
OKoAovs, ^ ov; 'Q,fjboX6y€L. Ovkovv tcov fiav-
392
EUTHYDEMUS
and dashing : Oh, it is all the same to us, Socrates,
provided the youth is \\-ilhng to answer us.
Why, in fact, I said, that is just what he is used to :
these people here are constantly coming to him and
asking him a number of questions and debating vrith
him, so he is a fairly fearless answerer.
WTiat ensued, Crito, how am I to relate in proper
style ? For no shght matter it is to be able to
recall in description such enormous knowledge as
theirs. Consequently, like the poets, I must needs
begin my narrative \A-ith an invocation of the Muses
and Memory. Well, Euthydemus set to work, so
far as I remember, in terms very much the same
as these Cleinias, which sort of men are the learners,
:
the wise or the foohsh ?

At this the young man, feeUng the embarrassment
of the question, blushed and glanced at me in his
helplessness. So I, perceiving his confusion, said :
Have no fear, Cleinias ; answer bravely, whichever

you think it is for perchance he is doing you the
:
greatest service in the world.

Meanwhile Dionysodorus leant over a little to me,
with a broad smile on his face, and whispered in my
ear : Let me tell you, Socrates, beforehand that,
M-hichever way the lad answers, he will be confuted.
While he was saying this, Cleinias made his reply,
so that I was unable even to advise the boy to be
wary he replied that it was the wise who were the
:
learners.
Then Euthydemus asked And : are there persons
whom you call teachers, or not ?
He agreed that there were.
393
. ;
PLATO
davovrojv ol StSaa/caAoi StSacr/caAoi elcnv, cuaTrep
o Kidapiarrjg /cat o ypaiiixaTtarrjS SiSctcr/caAoi
St^ttou •i^crai' crou /cat tcDp' aAAoji/ TralScov, vfielg Se
fjiaOrjTaL; Hvve^T). "AAAo rt ouv, rjVLKa i/xav-

6dveT€, OV7TCH -^TrlaTaade ravra, a ifjiavdaveTG
B OvK e(f)rj. Âp* ovv ao(f)ol rjT€, ot€ ravra ovk
TjTTLaTaade ; Ov Srjra, rj 8' o?. Oukovv et jxrj
ao(f)OL, dfjLaOeLs; Udvv ye. 'T/iet? apa /xavda-
vovres a ovk r^TTiaraade, afxadels ovreg ijxav-
ddvere. 'ETreVeucre to jxeipdKLov. Ot dpiadeZs
dpa fxavOdvovatv, c5 KXetvia, dAA' oi);^ ot ao(f)OL,
o)S av otet.
TatJr' ow etTTOVTo? auToy, oiairep vtto StSaa/caAoy
Xopog dnoarjfnjvavTos, a/xa dvedopv^rjadv re /cat
eyeXacrav ot eTTOjxevoL eKelvoi fierd rod Aiovvcro-
C Scopov re /cat EuûST^/zoy •
/cat TT/ati' dvairvevaai
KoXios re /cat ey to fieipdKiov, e/cSe^ct/xevo? o
AtovyodScopos', Ti 8e, a» KAeti^ta, €(f)y],
o-nore
aTToarofjiarLÔL vfitv 6 ypafMfMartarTjs , norepoi,
i/jidvdavov rcov TraiSiov rd dTTOcrrofMariôfieva, ol
ao(f)ol -^ ot dfiadels ; Ot cro(f)oi, e<j>'q 6 KAetvta?.
Ot ao(j)oi dpa fxavddvovoLV, dAA' ovx ol dpuadeZs,
/cat OVK ev av^ dpri KvdvS-qfio) aTre/c/otVoj
D 'Evrauâ Sr) /cat Trdvv eyeXaadv re /cat eOopv-
^rjaav ot epaaral rolv dvSpolv, dyaadevre? rrj<;
ao(f)ias avrolv ot 8' dAAot r^p,eZ? eKTTeTr\'r]yp,evoL
iaicoTTCofiev . yvovs 8e 7)p,ds 6 lEivdvSrjfxos e/c-
* e5 av Burnet : evdvs mss.
394
EUTHYDEMUS
And the teachers of the learners are teachers in
the same way as your lute-master and your ^^Titing-
master, I suppose, were teachers of you and the other
boys, while you were pupils ?
He assented.
Now, of course, when you were learning, you did
not yet know the things you were learning ?
No, he said.
So were you \vise, when you did not know those
things ?
No, to be sure, he said.

Then if not wise, foolish ?
Certainly.
So when you learnt what you did not know, you
learnt while being foolish.
To this the lad nodded assent.
Hence it is the foolish who learn, Cleinias, and not
the wise, as you suppose.
When he "had thus spoken, all those followers of
Dionysodorus and Euthydemus raised a cheer and a
laugh, hke a chorus at the signal of their director ;
and before the boy could fairly and fully recover
his breath Dionysodorus took up the cudgels and
said Well now, Cleinias, whenever your writing-
:
master dictated from memory, which of the boys

learnt the piece recited, the wise or the foolish ?
The wise, said Cleinias.
So it is the wise who learn, and not the foolish :
hence the answer you gave just now to Euthydemus
was a bad one.
Thereupon arose a great deal of laughter and loud
applause from the pair's adorers, in admiration of
their cleverness while we on our side were dismayed
;
and held our peace. Then Euthydemus, observing

395
PLATO
TTeirXriyixevovs , Iv* ert fidXXov 9avfj,dl,oifj,€v avrov,
ovK dvUi TO ixeipoLKiov , aAA' rjpcoTa, /cat uiOTrep oi
ayadol 6p)(r](yraiy SlttXS, eaTp€<j>e rd epcorrjixara
TTcpl Tov avrov, /cat e^ry Ylorepov yap ot jxavdd-
vovres fiavddvovaiv d eTTiaravraL •^ a fXT) eTTt-
arav'Tat;
Kat o AtovyadSoj/ao? ttoXlv puKpov npos fie tpi-
E dvpicras, Kai tovt\ ^(f^t], io H(x)KpaT€s, erepov
TOLOvrov, otov TO TTporepov.
*D Zeu, €(/)'r]v iyco, 7y fjbrjv /cat to Trporepov ye
KoXdv vfiLv €(f>dvr] to ipcoTtjua.
rTarT , ^(f>y),
a> TicoKpaTes, ToiauTa ry/xet? epcoToj-
fxev d(f)VKra.
ToiydpTOi, "^v 8' ey^' hoKeZri fioi evSoKtfielv
rrapd to is p.ady]Tals.
'Ev 8e rovTU) 6 fiev KAcivia? Toi EwûSt^/ao;
d7T€Kpivaro, on p,avddvoi,€v ol p.avddvovT€S d ovk
eTTLaTaiVTO' 6 8e rjpero avTov Sid tu>v avTtov
277 diVTTep to TtpoTepov Tt hi; rj S' o?, oi5/c eTrtCTTaaai
CTj) ypd/xfjiaTa; Nat, e^'*?- Ou/cow aTravTa;

'Q/LtoAdyet. "OTav' ow Tt? dTTOcrTop,aTL^r) otiovv,
ov ypdfMfxara dTToarofxaTLêL; 'D/itoAdyet. Oy/c-
ow a/v Ti ot) eTrioTaaai, e(f)ri, dTroaToixaritêi,
€L7T€p TrdvTa emCTTaoat; Kat tovto cofioXoycL.
Tt ovv; rj 8' o?, apa av fiavdaveis aTT dv avo-
OTOfiaTL^rj Tt?, d 8e jui) errtCTTa/xev'o? ypa/xfiaTa
[xavOdvei,; Ovk, dAA', 7^
8' d?, fxavddva). OvK-
ovv d iTTLGTaaat, €<f>r], fiavddveis, ei irep ye dnavTa
396
;
EUTHYDEMUS
our dismay, and seeking to astonish us still further,
would not let the boy go, but went on questioning him
and, like a skilful dancer, gave a twofold t\vist to his
questions on the same point Now, do the learners
:
learn what they know, he asked, or what they do

not?
Then Dionysodorus whispered to me again softly :
Here comes a second one, Socrates, just hke the first.

Heavens I replied surely the first question served
! :
you well enough.

All our questions, Socrates, he said, are like that
they leave no escape.
And consequently, as it seems to me, I remarked,
you have this high repute among your disciples.
Meanwhile Cleinias answered Euthydemus, that
learners learnt what they did not know ; so he had
to meet the same course of questions as before :
Well then, asked the other, do you not know your

letters ?
Yes, he said. ,
All of them ?
He admitted it.
Now when anyone dictates some piece or other,
does he not dictate letters ?
He admitted it.
And he dictates things of which you know some-
thing, sinceyou know all of them ?
He
admitted this too.
Well now, said the other, surely you do not learn
whatever such a person dictates it is rather he
;
who does not know his letters that learns ?

No, he replied I learn. ;
Then you learn what you know, since you know

all your letters.
VOL. IV o 397
PLATO
B ra ypd/x/xara cVtWacrai .
'
Q.ixoX6y7]cr€V . OvK
apa opdcos oLTTeKpLvoj, e^rj.
Kat ovTTOJ a(j>6hpa tl ravTa etprjro ro) Euû-

orjfxcp, Kat 6 AiovvcroScopog (Zavep aâipav eVSeâ-
fxevos Tov Xoyov ttolXiv €aToxo.i^€TO rod pLeipaKiov,
Kal emev 'EâTrara ae E,vdvbr)fMos, cu KAetv'ta.
eiTTe yap fioi, to p.avddv€iv ovk i7naTrjp,7]U ecrrt
Aap,^dv€iv TOVTOV, ov dv ris p.avddvr}; 'ClfioXoyei

o KXetvias. To S' imaTaadaL, J7 8' os, dXXo ri
Tj €X€iv eTTLGT'qfirjv tJSt] iaTLV; Jlvv€(f>rj. To apa

C p,7j imaraadac p,rjTTCi) ^xeiv iTnaTT^fxrjv icrriv;
Q/xoXoyei, avTO). YioTepov ovv elalv ol Xafi^d-

vovres OTiovv oi exoures rjSrj t] ot du p^rj; Qt dv
p,7] exioaiv. OvKovv d)poX6yr]Kas etvai rovrcov
Kat Tovs p,rj iiTiarapivovs , rd>v p,rj ixdvTcov;
Karevevae. Tcov Xap,âv6vT(x}v dp* elalv ol p.av-
ddvovres, dXX oi) tcov cxovtcdv; Hvvi(f>rj. 01 p,r)
eTTLcrrdpevoi, dpa, e^ry, pavddvovatv, u> KAeiv'ta,
aXX ovx ol iTnardpevot.

Ert 8rj €771 TO rpirov KaraâXcov wairep ira-
Xaiapia <x)pp,a 6 Kvdv8r]pos tov veavloKov Kat

D iyd) yvovs âTTTit,6pevov to p,€i,pdKLOV, ôvXo-
pevog dvaTTavaat avTo, prj "qpiv dnoSeiXidaeie,
TTapapvdovpevos eiTTOV ^D KAetvta, p,r) davpalê,
€L CTOt (fyaivovTai di^deig ol XoyoL. taojs yap ovk
aladdvec^ otov TTOieiTov tcu feVa» nepl ad' TToielTov
398
EUTHYDEMUS
He agreed.
So your answer was not correct, he said.
The last word was hardly out of Euthydemus'
mouth when Dionysodorus caught, as it were, the
ball of the argument and, aiming at the boy again,
said : Euthydemus is deceiving you, Cleinias. Tell
me, is not learning the reception of knowledge of
that which one learns ?
Cleinias agreed.
And is not knowing, he went on, just having
knowledge at the time ?
He assented.
So that not knowing is not yet having knowledge ?
He agreed with him.
Then are those who receive anything those who
have it already, or those who have it not ?
Those who have it not.
And you have admitted that those who do not
know belong also to this class of those who have it
not?
He nodded assent.
And the learners belong to the class of the receiv-
ing and not to that of the having ?
He agreed.
Hence it is those who do not know that learn,
Cleinias, and not those who know.
Euthydemus was proceeding to press the youth
for the third fall, when I, perceiving the lad was
going under, and wishing to give him some breathing-
space lest he should shame us by losing heart,
encouraged him with these words Cleinias, do not
:
be surprised that these arguments seem strange to

you for perhaps you do not discern what our two
;
visitors are doing to you. They are acting just Hke

S99
PLATO
8e ravTov, onep ol iv rfj reXerfj tcov K-opvâvrcDV,
OTOV TTjV dpOVOiaiV TTOLcbai, 7T€pl TOVTOV, OV aV
fieXXcoaL reXeXv. /cat yap €K€l -xopeia rig iam
Kai TraiSia, et dpa /cat TereXeaat' /cat vvv tovtoj
E ovSev dXXo rj )(op€V€rov Trepl ere /cat olov opx^Xadov
TTalôvre, to? fierd tovto reXovvre. vvv ovv v6-
/jLcaov TO. TTpcora rcbv Upcov olkovclv twv cro(f)i,-
OTLKcov. npcoTOV yap, cS? (f)-qai YipohLKOs, Trepl
ovopidrcov opdoTTjTOs fxadelv Set* o 81) /cat evhei-

Kvvadov aoL rcb ^€vct), on ovk TjSeiaOa to fiavOdvctv
on OL dvOpcoTTOi KaXovai fiev evrt to) rotoiSe, OTav
TLS ii dpxfjs firjSefiiav €-)(OJV iTnaTT^fi'qv Trepl Trpdy-
fxaros nvos eTreira varepov avrov Xafi^dvr] t^v

278 eTTLGT-qfjLrjv, KaXovai Se ravro tovto /cat cTretSai'
eôiv rjSrj tyjv eTrtcTT'qixrjv Tavrr) Trj iTnaTrjfMr] Tav-

Tov tovto TTpdyp,a iTTiaKOTrfj rj TrpaTTOfxevov iq
Xeyofievov. fjudXXov fxev avTO ^vvievat, koXovolv

rj fxavOdveiv, eari 8' ot€ Kal ixavOdveiv ae Se
TOVTO, d)s ovToi ivSetKvvvTai, SiaXeXrjde, TavTo
ovofia eTT* dv6pd)TTOis ivavTiwg e)(ovaL KeLfievov, eTn
TO) re eiSoTi /cat ctti to) p,-^' TTapaTrXrjaiov Se
TOVTOJ /cat TO ev to) SevTepcp epcoT-qp-aTt, ev (h
B rjpwTcov ae, TTOTcpa fiavdavovacv ol dvdpcjTTOL d

eTrtcTTavTai, rj d pirj. TavTa Srj tcov pLadrjpdTOJV
TratSta eoTL' Sto /cat cf)r)p,L eyd) aoi tovtovs Trpoa-
TTatêw TratStai' Se Xeyo) Sia TavTa, otl, et /cat
TToXXd TLS ^ Kal TrdvTa ra rotaura piddoL, ra p,ev

TTpdyp,aTa ovBev dv pidXXov elBelrj tttj e;(et, Trpoa-
400
—
EUTHYDEMUS
the celebrants of the Corybantic rites, when they per-
form the enthronement of the person whom they
are about to initiate. There, as you know, if you
have been through it, they have dancing and merr}'-
making : so here these two are merely dancing
about you and performing their sportive gambols
^vith a view to your subsequent initiation. You
must now, accordingly, suppose you are hstening
to the first part of the professorial mysteries. First
of all, as Prodicus says, you have 'to learn about the
—
correct use of words the very point that our two
visitors are making plain to you, namely, that you
were unaware that learning is the name which
people apply on the one hand to the case of a man
who, having originallv no knowledge about some
matter, in course of time receives such knowledge ;
and on the other hand the same word is applied
when, ha\ing the knowledge already, he uses that
knowledge for the investigation of the same matter
whether occurring in action or in speech. It is
true that they tend rather to call it understanding than
learning, but occasionally they call it learning too ;
and this point, as our friends are demonstrating,
—
has escaped your notice how the same word is
used for people who are in the opposite conditions
of knowing and not knowing. A similar point
underlay the second question, where they asked vou
whether people learn what they knoM', or what they
do not. Such things are the sport of the sciences
and that is why I tell you these men are making
game of you I call it sport because, although one
;
were to learn many or even all of such tricks, one

would be not a whit the wiser as to the true state
of the matters in hand, but only able to make game
401
,.
PLATO
TTaiêiv Se otog r* av etrj rolg dvdpwTTOLS 8ia ttjv
rajv ovofxaTcov Sta(f>opav VTroaKeXilâjv /cat dva-
rpeTTCov, warrep ol rd GKoXvdpia rwv fieôvrcov
C KadiS^-qaeadaL VTToaTTwvres xatpoucri kol y€X(x)aiv,
eTTeihdv thoiaiv vtttiov dvareTpafifMevov. ravra
fjicv ovv aoi TTapd rovrojv v6fx,i^€ TraiStav yeyovevaL'
TO 8e //.era ravra SrjXov on rovro) yi aoi avrd) rd
arrovhaZa ivSeiêadov , Kal iyw v^-qyTjaopLai, avrolv
d fxoL VTTeaxovTO (XTroScocretv. €(f)drrjv yap em-
hîêadaO' rrjv TrporpeTrrLKrjV ao(f>Lav vvv 8e, /u,oi
SoK€L, (hrjd-^rr]v Trporepov hetv Tratcrat, Trpos ere.
ravra /xev ovv, cb lEvdvBrjiJLe re Kal Aiovvo'oScope,

D TTeTTaiado) re v/xlv, /cat tcroj? iKavais e;<€f ro 8e 817
fiera ravra imhetârov TrporpeTTOvre rd fxeipaKiov
OTTO)? )(^pr^ ao<f)ias re /cat dperijs eTTLfieXrjdrjvaL
Trporepov 8 eyoj (7(f)a)V evheiôfxai, olov avrd vtto-
XapL^dvoj /cat dlov avrov eTTLdv/xcv d/coucraf edv
ovv S6^<o vfXLV IStcoriKcos re /cat yeAotaj? avrd
TTOietv, yitiy fj,ov KarayeXdre' vtto TTpodvfjiLas yap
E rov dKOvaat, rrjs vfxerepas ao<f)ias roXjxrjao} dir-
avroaêSLaaat evavriov vfiojv. dvdo'xeo'dov ovv
dyeXaarl aKovovres avroi re /cat ol nadrjral v/jlcov
av Be jjiOL, c5 Trat 'A^topôu, dTTOKptvai.
*Apd ye Trdvres dvdpiorroi ôvXojxeda ev Trpdr-
reiv ; "q rovro p.ev epwr-qfjua cov vvv Srj e(f)0ôv[xrjv
ev rcov KarayeXdariov ; dvorjrov ydp St^ttov /cat ro

epcordv rd roiavra- ris ydp ov ôvXerai ev Tvpar-
279 reiv ; Ovhels oaris ovk, €(f)r] 6 KAetj/ta?. Efer,
171' 8 eyo)' rd Srj jxerd rovro, eTTetSrj ôvXofxeda
ev TTpdrreLV, ttcos dv ev Trpdrroifxev ; dp dv €t
* iiriSeiâffO ai mss. : iiridei^fffdai Stephanus.

402
:
EUTHYDEMUS
of people, thanks to the difference in the sense of
the words, by tripping them up and overturning
them ; just as those who slyly pull stools away
from persons who are about to sit down make merry
and laugh when they see one sprawling on one's back.
So far, then, you are to regard these gentlemen's
treatment of you as mere play but after this they
:
will doubtless display to you their o^vn serious object,

while I shall keep them on the track and see that they
fulfil the promise they gave me. They said they
would exhibit their skill in exhortation but instead, ;
I conceive, they thought fit to make sport with you

first. So now, Euthydemus and Dionysodorus, let
us have done with your sport I daresay you have
:
had as much as you want. What you have next

to do is to give us a display of exhorting this youth
as to how he should devote himself to wisdom and
\'irtue. But first I shall explain to you how I regard
this matter and how I desire to hear it dealt with.
If I strike you as treating it in a crude and ridiculous
manner, do not laugh me to scorn for in my eager- ;
ness to Usten to your \îsdom I shall venture to

improvise in your presence. So both you and your
disciples must restrain yourselves and listen without
laughing and you, son of Axiochus, answer me
;
this
Do all we human beings wish to prosper ? Or
is this question one of the absurdities I was afraid
of just now ? For I suppose it is stupid merely to
ask such things, since every man must Avish to
prosper.
Everyone in the world, said Cleinias.
Well then, I asked, as to the next step, since we
wish to prosper, how can we prosper ? Will it be if
403
PLATO
"qfjbtv TToXXa Kayada €irj; ») tovto €K€lvov €ti
evrjOearepov ; SrjXov yap ttov /cat tovto otl ovtcos

e;êi. Hvve(f)r]. Oepe 817, dyada Se TTola dpa
Ta)v ovTOJv Tvyxdvei rjfxlv ovTa; rj ov pâAeTrov
ovSe aefivov dvBpos ttovv ti ovhk tovto €oik€V elvat
evTTopeZv; ttols yap dv rjfxlv emoi, on to rrXovTelv

ayadov -q yap; Ildvv y , ^^f]- Ovkovv /cat to
vyiaivetv /cat to KaXov etvai /cat roAAa /caret to
B acjfia LKavcJbs TrapeoKevdadai ; Sui'eSo/cet. 'AAAa
firiv euyevetat re /cat hwdfxeis Kai rt/xat iv ttj
eavTov SrjXd ioTtv dyadd ovTa. 'QfioXoyei. Tt

oSv, €(f>7]v, CTi rjfxlv AeiTrerat tcDv dyadojv; tL
dpa eoTi TO aco<f)povd T€ elvai /cat St/catoi' /cat
dvSpetov; TTOTCpov Trpos Ato?, cS KAeivta, ijyet av,
lav TavTa rt^co/xev co? dyadd, opdojs rjfjbds d-qaeiv,
-q idv fi-q; tacos ydp dv ti? rjixiv dfjL(f)Lcr^7]Ti](T€L€'
aol Be 7TCOS So/cet; *

Ay add, e(f>-q 6 KAetvta?. Etei/,
C T^v 8' iyu)' Tr]v 8e ao(j)iav ttov )(opov Tdôfxev; iv
Tols dyaOoLS, rj ttws Xcyeis; Ei' rot? ayadoig.
*Eivdv[xov 817, pb-q Tt TTapaXeLTTCopLcv tiov dyaddjv, o
Ti /cat a^tov' Aoyou. 'AAAa /xoi 8oKOvp,€V, €(f)r),
ovBev, 6 KAeivta?. /cat e'yci; dvap,V7)ad€ls etnov
404
EUTHYDEMUS
we have many good things ? Or is this an even
sillier question than the other ? For surely this
too must obviously be so.
He agreed.
Come now, of things that are, what sort do we
hold to be really good ? Or does it appear to be
no difficult matter, and no problem for an important
person, to find here too a ready answer ? Anyone
will tell us that to be rich is good, surely ?
Quite true, he said.
Then it is the same ^vith being healthy and hand-
some, and having the other bodily endowments in
plenty ?
He agreed.
Again, it is surely clear that good birth and talents
and distinctions in one's own country are good
things.
He admitted it.
Then what have we still remaining, I asked, in
the class of goods ? What of being temperate, and

just, and brave ? I pray you tell me, Cleinias, do
you think we shall be right in ranking these as
goods, or in rejecting them ? For it may be that
someone vriW dispute it. How does it strike you ?
They are goods, said Cleinias.
Very well, I went on, and where in the troupe
shall we station wisdom ? Among the goods, or
how ?
Among the goods.

Then take heed that we do not pass over any of
the goods that may deserve mention.
I do not think we are leaving any out, said
Cleinias.
Hereupon I recollected one and said : Yes, by
o 2 -^05
VOL. IV
;
Pl.ATO
OTi Nat fia Ata KivSwevofiev ye to fjueyLarov twv

dyadcov TTapaXiTTeZv . Tt rovro; t^ S' os. Trjv
evTVxi'Oiv, <L KXcLvta' o Trdvreg (f>aai, koL ol ttolvv
(f>avXoL, fxeytarov tcjv dyadcvu etvai. ÂXtjdrj
X4y€is, €(l>r). Kol iyo) av ttoXlv fieravo'qcras etnov

D OTt 'OAtyoy KarayeXaaroi iyevofieda vno tojv
êviov eyoj re kol av, c5 TraZ *A^l6xov. Tt 8t],
€<f>ri, TOVTo; "On €VTVxio.v iv rotg efnrpoadev

OefJievoi vvv Srj au^t? Trept rov avrov iXeyofxev.
Tt ovv Srj TOVTO ; KarayeAaorov StJttov, o ndXai
Trpo/cetrat, tovto TrdXtv TrpoTtdevai /cat St? rauTo. Ae-
yeiv. Ylcbs, €(f>r), tovto Xeyeis; 'H ao(f>ia Sijirov,
•qv 8* eycx), eurup^ta eoTi' tovto Se kom 77a t? yvoirj.
/cat o? edavpbaaev ovtios €tl vios t€ /cat evijOrjg
iaTL- Kdyd) yvoiis avTov davixdôvTa, *Ap' ovk

E olada, ecfyrjv, aj Iêtvt'a, OTt Trepl avXrjfJbaTcov
evirpayiav ol avXr^ral evTvxecrTaroi elaiv; Hvv-

€(f>r]. OvKovv, -^v S' iyo), /cat Trepl ypafxfxdTOJv
ypa(f)7Js T€ /cat dvayvcoaeojs ol ypaixfiaTioTai

Yidvv ye. Tt 8e; irpos tovs ttjs OaXdTTrjs kiv-
hvvovs fjicov o'tei evrvxôTepovs Tivds etvai tcov
aocfxjjv KVêpvqTOJv, d)s CTrt Trdv enreZv; Ov SrJTa.
Tt 8e; oTpaTevofievos fierd TTOTepov dv tJSlov tov
1 ypafifjMTiffTal were the schoolmasters who taught reading

and writing and explained the difficulties of Homer in
primary education.
4.06
EUTHYDEMUS
Heaven, we are on the verge of onutting the greatest
of the goods.
What is that ? he asked.
Good fortune, Cleinias : a thing which all men,
even the worst fools, refer to as the greatest of goods.
You are right, he said.
Once again I reconsidered and said : We have
almost made ourselves laughing-stocks, you and I,
son of Axiochus, for our visitors.
What is wTong now ? he asked.
Why, after putting good fortune in our former list,
we have just been discussing the same thing again.
What is the point ?
Surely it is ridiculous, when a thing has been
before us all the time, to set it forth again and go
over the same ground twice.
To what are you referring ? he asked.
Wisdom, I replied, is presumably good fortune :
even a child could see that.
—
He wondered at this he is still so young and
simple-minded then I, perceiAing his surprise,
:
went on : Can you be unaware, Cleinias, that for

success in flute-music it is the flute-players that
have the best fortune ?
He agreed to this.
Then in writing and reading letters it will be the
schoolmasters.^
Certainly.
Well now, for the dangers of a sea-voyage, do you
consider any pilots to be more fortunate, as a general
rule,than the wise ones ?
No, to be sure.
Well, then, supp>ose you were on a campaign,
with which kind of general would you prefer to
407
,
PLATO
KlvSvVOV T€ Kol rijs TV)(7]S fl€r€)(OLS, ^€Ta ao(f>ov
arparrjyov rj fier* dfxadovs; Mera ao(f>ov. Tt

8e; dadevcov fxerd TTorepov av TjSecu? KivSvvevois,
fieTO. ao(f)OV larpov iq jx^t* dfjLaOovs; Mera ao<l)ov.
JoO Ap ovv, Tjv o eyco, on evrvx^crrepov av otet
TTpdrreiv nerd cro(f)ov TTpdrrcov rj pier* dfiadovg;

"E-vveâjpei. H ao(f)ia dpa Travra^ôv evrvx^lv
TTOiel Tovs dvdpcoTTovs. ov yap SrJTTOv dpâpTavoi
y* av 7TOT€ TLS ao(f)l.a dAA' dvdyKTj 6p6a>s TTpdrreiv

/cat rvyxdveiv rj yap av ovKeri ao(f>ia eh],
T,vva)fjioXoy7)adp,€da reXetrroivTes ovk otS' ottcos
B iv Ke(f>aXaiq) ovrco rovro e)(€iv, aoîas Trapovarjs
(L av TTapfj, p7]8ev TTpoaSelaOai evrvxiâs- eVetSi^ 8e

rovro avviofjLoXoyrjardp,€da, ttoXiv irrvvdavofjLrjv av-
rov rd rrporepov (hfjioXoyrjpieva ttu>s av rjp.Lv eôt.
'
Q.poXoyrjaap€V ydp, e(j>7]v, el -qplv dyadd TToXXd
TTapeirj, evSaLjjiovelv av /cat ei) nparreiv. lLvve(f)r].
*Ap' ovv evhaLp,ovolp.ev av Sia rd irapovra dyadd,

el p,rjSev rjpds dxêXoi -q el <h(f>eXoL; Et wcfieXoL,
e<f)r]. 'Âp' ovv av ri ctxêAot, et etr} p.6vov "qpiv,
C ;(paj/xeâ 8' avroZs p-rj; olov air La el qpiiv e'lrj
TToXXd, eadioipiev Se /xiy, tj rrorov, TTivoipiev 8e p-q,
ead* 6 Tt d)(f>eXo ipied^ av; Ov Sijra, e(f>r]. Tt 8e;

ol Srjp.iovpyoi navres, el avroig e'ir) ndvra rd
408
<
—
EUTHYDEMUS
—
share both the peril and the luck a wise one, or
an ignorant ?
With a wise one.
Well then, supposing you were, sick, with which
kind of doctor would you like to venture yourself
a wise one, or an ignorant ?
With a AAise one.
And your reason, I said, is this, that you would
fare with better fortune in the hands of a wise one
than of an ignorant one ?
He assented.
So that wisdom everywhere causes men to be
fortunate since I presume she could never err, but
:
must needs be right in act and result otherwise she

;
could be no longer wisdom.

Wê came to an agreement somehow or other in
the end that the truth in general was this when :
wisdom is present, he with whom it is present has no

need of good fortune as well and as we had agreed
:
on this I began to inquire of him over again what

we should think, in this case, of our previous agree-
ments. For we agreed, said I, that if many goods
were present to us we should be happy and prosper.
Yes, he said.
Then would we be happy because of our present
goods, if they gave us no benefit, or if they gave us
some ?
If they gave us benefit, he said.

And would a thing benefit us if we merely had it
and did not use it ? For instance, if we had a lot
of pro\-isions, but did not eat them, or liquor, and did
not drink it, could we be said to be benefited ?
Of course not, he answered.
Well then, if every craftsman found the requisites
409
PLATO
€7TiTrj8(ia TTapeaKcvaancva eKaario els to iavrov
epyov, xp<pVTo 8' avrols fM'q, ap* av ovroi ev irpdr-
Totev 8kx T171' KTTJaiv, OTC K€KTr]fM€VOL etev TToivra d
oel KCKTrjadai tov SrjfjLLovpyov; olov reKTOJV, el
TTapeoKevacrfjievosetrj rd re opyava aTtavra /cat
^vXa LKavd, reKTaivoiro he jxri, ead* 6 ri <h(j>e\oir^
D av ttTTo ri)£ KTrjoecos ; OvSa/xcu?, ^4''^- Tt 8e,
ei Tt? KeKTrjjjLevos elr] ttXovtov re Kal a. vvv 817
eAeyofjLev Trdvra to. dyadd, )(^pa)ro he avrois firj,
ap dv evSaifiovol Bid ttjv tovtcov Krrjaiv tcov

ayaQoJv ; Ov hrira, c5 TicJoKpares. Aelv dpa,
e<f)rjv, cos eoiKe, p,r) fiovov KeKT-fjadai rd roiavra
ayada tov fxeXXovTa evSalfiova eaeadai, dXXd Kal

Xprjodai avTols' tos ovSev 6<f>eXos Trjs KTiqaews
yiyverai. ÂXtjOt] Xeyeis. Âp* oSv, c5 KAeivta,
E -^87^ TOVrcD LKavdi^ Trpos to evhaijxova TTOirjaai. riva,
TO re KeKTTJadaL rdyadd Kal to xPV^^'^'- <^vtois ;
"EfjLoiye 80/cet. IloTepov, -^v 8' eyw, edv opOcos
XprJTaL Tis 1} Kal edv fJLiq; 'Eav opdcbs. KaAo)?
he, Tjv 8 eya>, Xeyeis. irXeZov ydp ttov, ot/xat,
ddrepov eoTiv, edv tls xPV'^^'' otcoovv jjut] opdcbs

vpdyfxaTi "^ edv ea- to piev ydp KaKov, to he oVTe
281 KaKov dyadov rj ovx ovrco (f)ap.ev; Zvv-
OVTe
exoipei. Tt ovv; ev ttj epyaaia re Kal ;^p7ycret rfj
TTepl Td ^vXa pLCOV dXXo Tt ean to dTrepyat,6p,evov
opdcbs XPV^^^'' V ^TrLaT'ii]p,rj rj reKTOVtKT]; Ov
' TOVTU iKavih R. G. Bury : tovto iKavbv, tovtij) KaWiip, tovtu)
KaWio} Mss.
410
EUTHYDEMUS
work all ready prepared for him,
for his particular
and then made no use of them, would he prosper
because of these acquisitions, as ha\-ing acquired all
the things necessary for a craftsman to have at hand ?
For example, if a carpenter were furnished \\-ith
all his tools and a good supply of wood, but did no
carpentry, is it possible he could be benefited by
what he had got ?
By no means, he said.
Well now, suppose a man had got wealth and all
the goods that we mentioned just now, but made no
use of them ; would he be happy because of his
possessing these goods ?
Surely not, Socrates.
So it seems one must not merely have acquired
such goods if one is to be happy, but use them too ;
else there is no benefit gained from their possession.
True.
Then have we here enough means, Cleinias, for
—
making a man happy in the possession of these
goods and using them ?
I think so.
Shall we say, I asked, if he uses them rightly,
or just as much if he does not ?
If rightly.
Well answered, I said ; for I suppose there is
more mischief when a man uses anything wrongly
than when he lets it alone. In the one case there is
evil ; in the other there is neither evil nor good.
May we not state it so ?
He agreed.
To proceed then in the working and use con-
:
nected with wood, is there anything else that effects

the right use than the knowledge of carpentry ?
411
PLATO
oijTa, €<pr). AAAa jjirjv ttov kul iv rfj nepl ra
GKevT] epyaata to opdcog eTnaT-qfxrj icrrlv rj oltt-
epyaô/jievrj. T,vv€(f)r]. 'Âp' ovv, ^v S' iyto, Kal
TTcpL rrjv xP^^'^v ^v iXeyo/jiev to vpwTOV Ta>v dya-

doiv, ttAovtov t€ Kal vyieias Kal /caAAoys, to opdws
TTaai Tols TOLovTOLs XRV^^^*- cvLaTrjfjLr] -^v rj^ rjyov-
B jxevT] Kal KaTopdovaa ttjv irpdîv, rj aXXo Ti; 'Evrt-
aT-qp,r], -q 8' os. Ov fxovov dpa einvxt-cv, aAAa

/cat evTTpayiav, to? €olk€v, t) eTTiaT-qixr) Trape'pêi eV
Trdarj KTtjaei re Kal Trpdêi. 'Q/itoAoyet. Âp*

ovv c5 TTpos Aios, ^v 8 iyc^), oêXo's Ti Tojv dXXcov
KTTjpidTiov dvev (f>povqaecos /cai ao(f)ias; dpa ye ai'
ovaiTo dvdpcoTTog ttoAAo. KCKTrjiêvos Kal ttoAAcx
TxpdTTOiv vouv fiT) e^wv, fJidXXov iq oXiya^; (hhe
8e OKOTrei' ovk iXdTTCo TrpdTTCOV eAaxTW dv i^-
C ap,apTdvoi, iXdTTco 8e dfiapTavojv '^ttov dv KaK(x>s
TTpaTTOL, rJTTOV 8e KaKCOS TTpaTTiOV ddXiO^ TjTTOV

dv eirj; Yldvv y\ ^(f>y]-
HoTepov ovv dv /xaXXov
eActTTOj Tis TTpaTTOL TTevT^s iov TTf TrXovoios ; Wivrjs,
€(f)r]. lioTcpov 8e dadevrjs rj laxvpog; 'Aadevqg.

IloTepov 8e evTifios •^ art/ios'; "Ari/Lio?. YloTcpov
be dvBpelos cov Kal aa)cf>po)v cAcittcd dv rrpaTTOi ^
' i) Badham.
' waXXoi' ^ dXlya lanibl. : rj fxaWov oKiya vovv ^x'^" MS3.
412
EUTHYDEMUS
Surely not, he said.
Further, I presume that in the working connected
with furniture it is knowledge that effects the right
work.
Yes, he said.
Then similarly, I went on, in the use of the goods
—
we mentioned at first wealth and health and
—
beauty was it knowledge that showed the way to
the right use of all those advantages and rectified
their conduct, or was it something else ?
Knowledge, he replied.
So that knowledge, it would seem, supplies man-
kind not only with good luck, but with welfare, in all
that he either possesses or conducts.
He agreed.
Then can we, in Heaven's name, get any benefit
from all the other possessions without understanding
and wisdom ? Shall we say that a man will profit
more by possessing much and doing much when he
has no sense, than he will if he does and possesses
little ? Consider it this way would he not err less
:
if he did less and so, erring less, do less ill ; and

;
hence, doing less ill, be less miserable ?

Certainly, he said.
In which of the two cases, when one is poor or
when one is rich, ^vill one be more likely to do
less ?
When one is poor, he said.

And when one is weak, or when one is strong ?
Weak.
And when one has high position, or has none ?
None.
When one is brave and self-controlled, will one do
less, or when one is a coward ?
413
PLATO
SeiAos-; AetAoj. Ovkovv /cat dpyos /xaAAov -q
epyarrjs; Hvvexcopei. Kat ^paBvg {jidXXov rj
D raxvs, /cat dfi^Xv opcov /cat olkovcov fiaXXov 7] of u;

ITat'Ta Ta roiavra ^vvexojpovfiev aAATjAot?.
Et* /ceâAatoj 8', e(f)rjv, co KAetv't'a, /cirSuveuet
av/xTTavra, d ro rrpcbrov eâ/xci' dyaâ elvai, ov irepl
TOVTOV 6 Xoyos avTOLS elvac, ottojs avrd ye ~kad^

avra ttc^vkcv dyadd, dAA' (1)9 colkcv c5S' €^€1' edv
fiev avTCJV rjyrjraL dfxadia, fjuciô) /ca/ca etvat rcov
ivavTiCDV, ocro) hwarwrepa vnrjpeTelv to) rjyov-
fjievo) /ca/coj ovtl' idv Be (f)p6vrjGLS re /cat ao(j>ia,
E /xei'ô) dyadd' avrd he /ca^' aura ovSerepa avrcbv

ovSevos d^ta elvat. OatVerat, 6^17, d)s eoiKev,
ovTcos, COS cri) Xeyeis. Tt ovv -qpuv avpLâivei e/c
Tcbv elprjfievcov ; aAAo rt rj rcov fiev dXXcov ovSev
ov ovre dyadov ovre KaKov, rovroiv 8e hvoXv ovtolv
7} fiev ao(j>La dyadov, rj Se dfiaOia kukov; Q.fjt,o-
282 Aoyei.
"Eti roivvv, e<j)rjv, ro Xoittov eTnaKeifxofieOa.
eTTeiBrj evSalfjLoves piev elvai Trpodvp,ovp,eda -ndvres,
e(j)dv'qp,ev 8e roiovroi yiyv6p,evoi e/c rov ;!^/3T^crât re
roXs TTpdyfiaai /cat opOcos XP1^^^''> '^^ ^^ opdo-
rrjra /cat evrvxâv e7TLcrrt^p,r) rj irapexovaa. Set h-q,
(OS eoiKev, eK rravros rpoTTOV dnavra dvSpa rovro

TTapaoKevdêadai, ottcos (os aocfxlyraros icrrai' rj
414
EUTHYDEMUS
A coward.
So too, when idle rather than busy ?
He agreed.
And slow rather than quick, and dim of sight and
hearing rather than sharp ?
We agreed with each other as to these and all
such cases.
To sum up then, Cleinias, I proceeded, it seems
that, as regards the whole lot of things which at
first we termed goods, the discussion they demand
is not on the question of how they are in themselves
and by nature goods, but rather, I conceive, as

follows : if they are guided by ignorance, they are
greater evils than their opposites, according as they
are more capable of ministering to their e\il guide ;
whereas if understanding and wisdom guide them,
they are greater goods ; but in themselves neither
sort is of any worth.
I think the case appears, he replied, to be as you
suggest.
Now what result do we get from our statements ?
Is it not precisely that, of all the other things, not
one is either good or bad, but of these two, wisdom
is good and ignorance bad ?
He agreed.
Let us consider then, I said, the further conclusion
that lies before us. Since we are all eager to be
happy, and since we were found to become so by
not only using things but using them aright, while
knowledge, we saw, was that which provided the
rightness and good fortune, it seems that every
man must prepare himself by all available means
so that he may be as wise as possible. Is it not
so ?
415
PLATO
ov; Nat, €(f)r]. Kat Trapa irarpo^ ye 87^7701* tovto
B ol6[X€vov Selv napaXafi^dveiv ttoXv fiaXXov 7] XPV'
[jLara, Kal Tra/a' eTTirpoTTCov /cat j)iXcov rcjv re dXXcov
Kat Tcov (fiaoKovTcov epaarojv elvai, Kal êvoiv /cat
TToXircjv, BeofjLcvov /cat LKerevovra aoîag fiera-

StSovat, ovSev alaxpdv, c5 KAeti'ta, ouSe vc/xecrqTOV
€veKa TOVTOV VTr-qperelv /cat SovXeveLV Kal epaarfj
Kal TTavrl dvdpcoTTO), otiovv iOeXovja VTTrjperelv rcov
KaXtov VTTrjpeTrjfjLaTcov , TTpodvpiovfievov ao<j>6v yeve-
adai' 1^ ov 80/cet aoi, €(f>'r]v iyo), ovTOiS ; Yidvv p.kv
C ovv €v fioi So/cet? Xeyetv, rj S' os. Et eo-ri ye, to
KAetvta, rjv 8' eya>, aoîa StSa/crdr, aAAa jxr^
r)
diTO Tavrojxdrov Trapayiyverai to 19 dvdpayTTOLs.

TOVTO yap rjfXLV ert daKeTTTOV /cat ovttoj SicofioXo-
yqfxevov efxoi re /cat aoi. AAA' eôtye, e^^y, c5
Scu/cparej, SiSa/crov etvat 80/cet. /cat eyto rjadel's
€L7Tov *H /caAcD? Ae'yets, to dpicrre dvSpuJv, Kal ev
iTTOiTjcras (XTraAAaâ? jiie crKei/jecos ttoAAt^s' Tre/at
TOVTOV avTOV, TTOTepov hihaKTOv Tj ov hlhaKTOV

rj ao(f)ia. vvv oSv eTreihrj croc Kal Bi-SaKTOv So/cet
D /cat /jLovov Twv ovTcov evSaiixova Kal evTVX^ ttolcIv
TOP dvdpcoTTOV, dXXo Ti ^ (f>aL'r]g dv dvayKaZov elvai
(f)LXoao<f)€LV Kal avros iv vw exîs avro TToielv;
Xidw /JLCV ovv, €(f}rj, c5 Scu/c/aarej, cos olov re

fidXiara.
Kdyd> TavTa dapievos aKOvaag, To piev ipiov,
€<f)rjv, TTapdheiypua, at AtovvaoBcope re /cat Ei5û-

87^/xe, otcov imOvpicb Tcup' irpoTpeTTTiKdJv Xoycov
etvai, ToiovTOV, tStajTt/cov tacoj /cat pioXis 8ta
416
EUTHYDEMUS
Yes, he said.
And if a man thinks, as well he may, that he
ought to get this endowment from his father much
more than money, and also from his guardians and
his ordinary friends, and from those who profess
to be his lovers, whether strangers or fellow-citizens
— praying and beseeching them to give him his share
of wisdom ; there is no disgrace, Cleinias, or repro-
bation in making this a reason for serving and being
a slave to either one's lover or any man, and being
ready to perform any service that is honourable
in one's eagerness to become wise. Is not this your
view ? I asked.
I think you are perfectly right, he repHed.
Yes, Cleinias, I went on, if wisdom is teachable,
and does not present itself to mankind of its own
—
accord for this is a question that we have still to
consider as not yet agreed on by you and me.
For my part, Socrates, he said, I think it is
teachable.
At this I was glad, and said Well spoken indeed,
:
my excellent friend How good of you to relieve

!
me of a long inquiry into this very point, whether

wisdom is teachable or not teachable ! So now,
since you think it is both teachable and the only
thing in the world that makes man happy and
fortunate, can you help saying that it is necessary to
pursue wisdom or intending to pursue it yourself ?
Why, said he, I do say so, Socrates, with all my
might.
So I, delighted to hear this, said There, Dionyso-
:
dorus and Euthydemus, is my illustration of what

I desire a hortatory argument to be —rough and
ready, perhaps, and expressed at laborious length :
417
; .
PLATO
fiaKpcov Xeyofievov a^cov Se OTrorepos ôvXerai,
ravrov tovto rexi'j) Trpdrrcov evihet^drto rjfjLtv. el
E Se fiTj TOVTO ôvXeadov odev iyoj dTreXiTTOV, to

,
i^rjs €TnheiâTov tw /i.etpa/cia>, TTOTcpov Trdaav

€TnaTi]fjirjv Set avTov KToiadai, rj ecrrt tls fxla, tjv
Set XaôvTa evSaL/xoveiv t€ koL dyadov dvSpa
clvat, /cat TtV auTT^, cos yap eXeyov dp)(6fievos,
7T€pl TToXXov rjfxiv Tvyxdvei ov TovSe tov veaviaKov
283 ao(f>6v re /cat ayadov yeviaOai.
'Eya> pikv ovv Taiha clttov, c5 KpiTCDV to) Be
ficTO. TOVTO eaofievo) ndw a(f)6Spa Trpoaetxov tov
vovv, /cat eireaKOTTOVv , Ttva ttotc TpoTTov dtjjOLVTO
TOV Xoyov /cat oTToOev dpôtvTO TrapaKeXevofxevoL to)
veavioKO) ao<f)iav re /cat dpeTrjV doKelv. 6 ovv
vpea^VTepos avTcov, 6 ALOvvaoSoipos rrpoTepos ,
tJpxcto tov Xoyov, /cat rjfxeZs TrdvTes e^Xenofiev

TTpos avTov cos avTLKa pdXa aKOvaopêvoi dav-
p,aaiovs Tivds Xoyovs' oirep ovv /cat avve^rj rjpuv
B davfiacTTOv ydp KpLTOJV, dvrjp KaTrjpx^
Tiva, co
Xoyov, ov aol dîov aKovaai, cos TrapaKeXevaTiKos 6

Xoyos Tjv ctt' dpeT-qv.
EtVe pLOL, €(1)7), d) TicoKpaTes Te /cat vp,€Ls ol
dXXoL, oaoL <f>aT€ €7ndvfj,€tv TovSe tov veaviaKov
ao(^6v yeveadai, noTepov Trat'^cre raura XeyovTes
iq cos dXrjdios iTndvfielTe /cat aTTOvSdêTe
Kdyo) SLevo-^drjv, ort ihrjdTyrqv dpa r]p,ds to

TTpoTepov TTait,eLv, 'qviKa eKeXevojjiev SiaXex6fjvaL
Tcp veavLCKU) avTco, /cat Sta raura TrpoaeTraiadTTjv
C re /cat ovk eaTTovSaadTTjv Taiha ovv Siavor]dels €tl
fidXXov eliTOv, oTi davfxaaTOis (TTTOvhdtôLjxev
Kat o Aiovvaohcopos, S/coTret fti^j^, e0>?, c5
HcoKpaTes, oTTOis fi'q eâpvos ecrei e vvv Xeyets.
418
EUTHYDEMUS
now let either of you who wishes to do so give us
an example of an artist's handling of this same matter.
If you do not wish to do that, let your display begin
where I-left off, and show the lad whether he ought
to acquire every kind of knowledge, or whether
there is a single sort of it which one must obtain
if one is to be both happy and a good man, and what
it is. For as I was saying at the outset, it really
is a matter of great moment to us that this youth
should become wise and good.
These were my words, Crito ; and I set about
giving the closest attention to what should follow,
and observing in what fashion they would deal \\'ith
the question, and how they would start exhorting
the youth to practise wisdom and virtue. So then
the elder of them, Dionysodorus, entered first upon
the discussion, and we all turned our eyes on him
expecting to hear, there and then, some wonderful
arguments. And this result we certainly got ; for
wondrous, in a way, Crito, was the argument that the
man then ushered forth, which is worth your hearing
as a notable incitement to virtue.
Tell me, Socrates, he said, and all you others who
say you desire this youth to become wise, whether
you say this in jest or truly and earnestly desire it.
At this I reflected that previously, as it seemed,
they took us to be jesting, when we urged them to
converse with the youth, and hence they made a
jest of it and did not take it seriously. This reflec-
tion therefore made me insist all the more that we
were in deadly earnest.
Then Dionysodorus said Yet be careful, Socrates,
:
that you do not have to deny what you say now.
419
PLATO
Ea/ce/ti/Ltai, -^v 8' iyco' ov yap fxiq ttot eâpvos
yevcofjLaL. Ti ovu; €(f>r)- (f>aTe ôvXecrdai avrov
ao(f)6v yeveaOai; Ilai'i' fxev ovv. Nw 8e, rj 8' 6s,
KAeivta? TTorepov ao(f>6s eartv r^ ov; Ovkovv (f)rjaL
ye TTco' eaTL 8e ovk dXat,(i)V. 'T/iet? 8e, e(f)-q,
D ôvXeade yeveaOai avrov ao<j)6v, dfiadrj 8e fxrj
elvai; '
Q.p.oXoyovpi€v . Ovkovv o? /xe^' ovk eari,
ôvXeade avrov yeveadat, o? 8' ecrrt vvv, fji,7]Keri
elvac. Kal iyo) OLKovaag idopv^-qdriv 6 8e {xov

Oopvôv/xevov VTToXa^cov, "AXXo ti ovv, e<f)r], CTret
ôvXeaOe avrov, os vvv earl, fi'qKcri elvai, ôv-

XeaOe avrov, coy eoiKev, aTToXuiXivai ; Kairoi ttoX-
Xov av dîoL ol roLovroL elev <j)iXoL re Kal epaarai,
otrives TO. 7rat8t/ca. irepl iravros av 7Ton]aaLvro
eôXcoXevai.
E Kat o Kr-ô-iTTTTOs OLKovcras rjyavaKrrjae re VTrep

rcov TTaL^LKibv Kal eLTTev ^Q. êve Qovpie, el p,r)
dypoiKorepov , €<fyrj, "^v elireLV, eiirov av, aol el^
Ke<âXrjV, 6 ri /xadcov p,ov Kal rcov dXXcov Kara-

xpevhei rotovro TTpdyfxa, o eyd) ol/jLai ovS oaiov
'
elvat, Xeyeiv, cos eydj rovSe ôvXoljxtjv av eôXco-
Xevai.
Tt 8e, e<j)ri, c5 l^rrjanrTTe, 6 Eiv6vBr]p,os, ^ SoKel
aoi olov r elvai ipevheadai; Nt^ Ai'a, e^^, el fxrj
fxalvofxai ye. Ilorepov Xeyovra ro vpayfia, Trepl
284 o5 av 6 Xoyos fj, •^ //.i^ Xeyovra; Keyovra, e(f)7].
Ovkovv etrrep Xeyei avro, ovk dXXo Xeyei rdiv

420
EUTHYDEMUS
I know wliat I am about, I said : I know I shall
never deny it.
Well now, he proceeded ;

you tell me you wish
him to become wise ?
Certainly.
And at present, he asked, is Cleinias wise or not ?
—
He says he is not yet so he is no vain pretender.
And you, he went on, wish him to become wise,
and not to be ignorant ?
We agreed.
So you wish him to become what he is not, and to
be no longer what he now is.
When I heard this I was confused and he, ;
striking in on my confusion, said Of course then, :
since you wish him to be no longer what he now is,

you wish him, apparently, to be dead. And yet
what valuable friends and lovers they must be, who
would give anything to know their darling was dead
and gone !
Ctesippus, on hearing this, was annoyed on his

favourite's account, and said Stranger of Thurii, :
were it not rather a rude thing to say, I should tell

you, ill betide your design of speaking so falsely
of me and my friends as to make out —-what to me is
almost too profane even to repeat that I could —
wish this boy to be dead and gone !
Why, Ctesippus, said Euthydemus, do you think

itpossible to lie ?
To be sure, I do, he replied : I should be mad
otherwise.
Do you mean, when one tells the thing about
wliich one is telling, or when one does not ?
When one tells it, he said.

Then if you tell it, you tell just that thing
421
PLATO
OVTCDV T] €K€Lvo 07T€p Aeyet; Ucos yap dv; €(f)ri o
RTTycrtTTTTos'. "El' fir]v KOLKeZvo y' ecrrt rwv ovrcov,
o Ae'yei, x^P^^^ "^^^ dXXojv. Hdvv ye. Ovkovv

6 €K€lvo Xcyoiv TO 6v, €(f)rj, Xeyei; Nat. 'AAAa
firjv o ye ro ov Xeyojv /cat to, ovra rdX-qdrj Xeyer
(Zorre 6 A.LOvva6Sa)pos , eiirep Xeyei rd ovra, Xeyet
rdX-qdfj Kal ovSev Kara aov i/jevSerat. Nat, e(f)r)'
B dAA' o ravra Xeycov, e(f>7j 6 KxT^crtTTTros', c5 ISivdu-
Sr]fjL€, ov rd ovra Xeyei. koX 6 EtJûStj/xos", To, he
fjuT] ovra, e(j>r], dXXo ri rj ovk eariv; Ovk eariv.
"AXXo Ti ovv ovSafxov rd ye firj ovra ovra ecrnv;
OvSafjiov. "EcTTtr ovv OTTOJS TTepl ravra ra pur]
ovra vpdêiev dv ris ri, coare /cat etiât^ TTOLriaeiev
dv /cat oariaovv rd p,7]8apLov ovra; Ovk e/xotye
So/cet, €<fyr) 6 Kr'qaLTTTTOS . Tt ovv; at prjropes
orav XeycoGLV ev rd) S-q/xa), ovSev rrpdrrovaiv;
Ylpdrrovai pêv ovv, rj 8' oj. Ovkovv enrep
C TTpdrrovcri, Kal ttoiovolv; Nat. To Xeyeiv dpa
rrpdrreiv re Kal iroieZv eariv; 'ClpuoXoyrjaev. Ovk

dpa rd ye pur] ovr , e(f)r], Xeyet. ouSet's" iroiol yap
av rjoT] ri' av oe copioAoyrjKas ro pLrj ov pbrj olov r
* Siffre Kal elvat Hermann : wo-t' dKecva, &s ye KXuvig. kt\. mss.
422
EUTm'DEMUS
which you tell, of all that are, and nothing else
whatever ?
Of course, said Ctesippus.
Now the thing that you tell is a single one, distinct
from all the others there are.
Certainly.
Then the person who tells that thing tells that
which is ?
Yes.
But yet, stirely he who tells what is, and things
that are, tells the truth so that Dionysodorus,
:
if he tells things that are, tells the truth and speaks

no lie about you.
Yes, said Ctesippus ; but he who speaks as he did,
Euthydemus, does not say things that are.
Then Euthydemus asked him And the things
:
which are not, surely are not ?

They are not.
Then nowhere can the things that are not be ?
Nowhere.
Then is it possible for anyone whatever so to deal
with these things that are not as to make them be
when they are nowhere ?
I think not, said Ctesippus.
Well now, when orators speak before the people,
do they do nothing ?
No, they do something, he repUed.
Then if they do, they also make ?
Yes.
Now, is speaking doing and making ?
He agreed that it is.
No one, I suppose, speaks what is not for thereby —
he would be making something and vou have agreed
;
that one cannot so much as make what is not so —

423
,;
,
PLATO
elvai jLtr^Se TTOielv ware koto, tov aov Xoyov oySets
i/jevSrj Aeyet, dAA' etnep Aeyei AiovvaoSojpos
raXrjdrj re Kai to. ovra Ae'yei. Nt) Ata, e^T^ d
KTTjcnTTTTOS', c5 EuûSTj/xe* dAAd TO, dvra /xev
rpoTTOv rtva Aeyet, oi) jxevTOt, cS? ye eêt.
riciis' Aeyety, e^Ty d Aiovvaohcopos , co K.rtâi7T7Te
T) elal yap Xeyovai ra TrpdypLara cos ^xî;

rives, ot
Etcrt fievrot,, €(f>r), ot /caAoi re Kayadol /cat ot ra-
Xrjdfj Xeyovres. Ti ovv; -^ 8' ds" rdyada ovk ev,
€(f)r}, €X€i, rd Se KaKo. KaKcos; 2we;\;cu/[)ei. Tovs
Se /caAouj re Kayadovs ofioXoyels Xeyeiv at? e;êt
rd TTpdy/jLara; *0/xoAoyd>. Ka/ccD? d/aa, e</)i7,
XeyovGLV, a> K^nâimrc, ol dyadol rd /ca/cd, ecrrep
(x)s cxî Xiyovai. Nat /id Ata, 17 8' ds", (7<f)6hpa ye,
Tous" yow KaKovs dvOpconovs' ct)V ov, eav /zot
E TTeidr], evXa^-qaei etvai, Iva fi-q ae ot ayadoi kclkcos
Xeycocnv. cos €V tad* on KaKcos Xeyovaiv ol

dyadol roiis KaKovs. *H /cat rovs p-eyaXovs,
€(f)7]
6 ^vdvS-qfxos , peydXcos Xeyovai /cat rovs
deppLOVs deppLws ; MdAtara hrjTTOv, e^-q 6 Kr'jâ-
iTTTtos' rovs yovv i/jvxpovs ifjvxp<^S Xeyovai re /cat
âot 8taAe'yeo'ât. 2y p.ev, 6 ALovvaoScopos
€cf)rj
XoiSopel, CO KTTjCTtTTTre, Aot8opet.Md At ovk

eyojye, rj 8' os, c5 AtovyadScDpe, evret <^tAd> ae,
dAAd vovdercb ct' (Ls eraZpov, /cat Tret/adi/xat Treideiv
pbTjSevore evavriov ep.ov ovrois dypoiKCos Xeyeiv,
^ The quibbling throughout this passage is a wilful con-

"
fusion of the different uses of the verb "to be
two very
(elvai), (a) in predication, where it has nothing to do with
existence, and (6) by itself, as stating existence.
"^
Euthyderaus seizes on the ambiguous use of /caKwj,
which may mean either " badly " or " injuriously."
424
—
EUTHYDEMUS
that,by your account, no one speaks what is false,
while if Dionysodorus speaks, he speaks what is
true and is.
Yes, in faith, Euthydemus, said Ctesippus ; but
somehow or other he speaks what is, only not as it ^
is.i
How do you mean, Ctesippus ? said Dionyso-

dorus. Are there persons who tell things as they
are ?
Why surely, he replied, there are gentlemen
people who speak the truth ?
Well, he went on, good things are in good case,
bad in bad, are they not ?
He assented.
And you admit that gentlemen tell things as they
are.
I do.
Then, Ctesippus, good people speak evil of evil
things, if they speak of them as they are.
Yes, I can tell you, very much so, when for instance
they speak of evil men among whom, if you take
;
my ad\ice, you will beware of being included, that

the good may not speak ill of you. For, I assure
you, the good speak ill' of the evil.
And they speak greatly of the great, asked
Euthydemus, and hotly of the hot ?
Certainly, I presume, said Ctesippus I know :
they speak frigidly of the frigid, and call their

way of arguing frigid.
You are turning abusive, Ctesippus, said Dionyso-
dorus, quite abusive !
Not I, on my
Dionysodorus, for I like you :
soul,
I amonly giving you a friendly hint, and endeavour-
ing to persuade you never to say anything so tactless
425
PLATO
285 OTL iyoj TorjTovs /SouAo/xai iôXcoXevai, ovg irepl
TrXelcrrov TToiovîat.
Eya> ovv, €7T€LS-q fxoL eSoKovv dyptcoTepcog Trpog
dXXrjXovs €X€iv, 'npoaeTTait,6v re rov IXTTJaL-mrov Kal
€L7Tov OTL '
Q. Kri^cnTTTTe, c/xot fxkv So/cet XPW^'-
rjfjid?irapa rcov êvcov Seêcrâi a Xiyovatv, edv
edeXojai SiSovai, Kal fiT) ovofiart hiaêpeaOai. el
yap eTTLaravraL ovtcos iôXXvvai, dvdpioTTOVs, axrr
€K TTOVTjpCOV TC Kttt d<f>p6vCOV XRV^^^^^ "^^ '^^'
efxcfjpovas Kal tovto ctre avroj evp-qKarov

ttolcZv,
B etre Kal Trap' dXXov rov ifxaderrjp (j>d6pov rivd Kal
oXedpov roLOVTov, aiare dnoXeaavTes TTOvrjpov ovra
XpyjoTov ttoXlv tovto eTriaTaadov
aTTO(f)rjvai' el —
hrjXov Se, OTL eTTLCTTaadov' yovv ttjv Te^rjv
€(f)dTr]v
a(f)(jjv elvaL ttjv veoicrTl evprjfievrjv dyadovg TTOLetv
Tovs avdpwTTOvs e/c TTOV-qpcov —-cruypôjpT^crajêi/ bvu

avTOLV avTO' dTToXeadvTOJV -qfjilv to fxeLpaKLOv Kal
(jipovLpLOV TTOLTjadvTOJV ,Kal dnavTas ye "qfids tovs
dXXov£. Se vfiels ol veoL ôêlade, ioatrep ev
el
C Kapt ev ifiol eoTco 6 klvSvvos' cos eyo), eireLSr]
Kal TTpea^vTTjs elfxl, irapaKLvhvveveLV ctolôs Kal
TTapahihiojxL ifiavTov ALOvvaoScJopcp tovto) uyairep
Trj MrjSeLO. Trj KoXxco' dTToXXvTO) fxe, Kal el /xei'
ôvXeTaL, eipeTOj, ei 8', o tl ôvXeTaL, tovto TrotetTOi-

fxovov j^^pTjcrrov Kal 6 J^ttJolttttos,
dTTO(f)r]vdTOJ .
'Eyoj Kal avTos, c5 HcoKpaTes, eTOLp,6s

fjiev, e(f)T],
elfiL TTapexeiv epâvTov tols êvoLS, Kal edv ôv-

Acot'Tai hepeLV ctl /xaAAot' •^ vvv hepovoLV, et p,OL rj
D hopd put] els doKov TeXevTrjoeL woTrep T] tov Map-
^ Lit. "
a Carian slave."
This satyr was fabled to have challenged Apollo to a
*
musical contest, and on his fluting being judged inferior to

426 .
EUTHYDEMUS
in roy presence as that I wish these my most highly
valued friends to be dead and gone.
So then I, observing that they were getting rather
savage with each other, began to poke fun at
Ctesippus, saying Ctesippus, my feeling is that we
:
ought to accept from our visitors what they tell us,

if they are so good as to give it, and should not
quarrel over a word. For if they understand how
to do away vrith people in such sort as to change
them from wicked and witless to honest and intelli-
gent, and that too whether they have discovered
for themselves or learnt from somebody else this
peculiar kind of destruction or undoing, which en-
ables them to destroy a man in his wickedness and
set him up again in honesty ; if they understand this
— and obviously they do ; you know they said that
their newly discovered art was to turn wicked
—
men into good let us then accord them this
power ; let them destroy the lad for us, and make
him sensible, and all the rest of us likewise. If you
young fellows are afraid, let the experiment be
made on me as a corpus vile ^ ; for I, being an elderly
person, am ready to take the risk and put myself
in the hands of Dionysodorus here, as if he were
the famous Medea of Colchis. Let him destroy me,
and if he hkes let him boil me down, or do to me
whatever he pleases only he must make me good.
:
Then Ctesippus said I too, Socrates, am ready

:
to offer myself to be skinned by the strangers even

more, if they choose, than they are doing now, if
my hide is not to end by being made into a wine-skin,
like that of Marsyas,^ but into the shape of virtue.
Apollo's harping he was flayed alive by the god for his
presumption, and his skin was hung up like a bag or bottle
in a cave ; ef. Herod. vU. 26.
4S7
PLATO
avov, aAA els aper^v. Kairoi, fxe oterai Aiowao-
ooipos ovToal -)(aX€TTaiv€iv avToj' eycu Se ov ;âAe-
TTaivoi, dAA' avriXeyoi irpos ravra, d jxol SokcZ
TTpos fie fiT) /caAcD? Xeyeiv dXXa av to avTiXeyeiv,
€(f)ir], cS yevvaie AtovvaoBcope, pbrj /caAet AotSopet-
adai' erepov yap ri eari to XoihopeZadai.
Kai o A.Lovv(j6Bojpos , 'n? 6vTO£, €(f)r], rov dvri-
Xeyeiv, aj KTTycrtTTTre, Trotet rovs Xoyovs; Yldvrojs
Stjttov, €(f>rj, Kol a(f)6hpa ye* rj av, cS AtovvcroScope,
E ou/c oiet elvai dvTiXeyeiv; Ovkovv av rdv, e<f>ri,
aTToSet'l'ai? ttcottotc dKovaag ovSevos dyriXeyovTOS

erepov erepcp. AXr]drj XeycLs; e(f)r)' dXXd aKOVCo-
fiev vvv, 61 croi aTToScLKW/Jit, dvTiXeyovros Kxr^cr-
Aiovvaohoipcp
L7T7TOV . H KoL V7T6a)(oi.s dv Torirov
TT'
A'oyov; llav'y, "J
ecpr^.
T""?
It oui^;
TO'" '*
^ o os" eiatv
iKaaTw rd>v ovroiv Xoyoi; Yidvv ye. Ovkovv d)s
Job eoTiv eKaarov rj cos ovk eariv; Lis eariv. Hit
yap fjieixvrjaat,, €<f)'q,

<x> Yi.rrâi'mte, koI dpri eirehei-
âpLev p-iqheva Xeyovra <1)S ovk eari' ro yap p.r] ov
ovoeLS ecpavr] Aeycov. It ovv orj tovto; tj o os o
Kr-^CTtTTTros" rjTTOv TL dvTiXeyofiev iyo) re Kal av;
Horepov OVV, "q S' os, dvTLXeyoipLev dv rov^ rod avTOV
TTpdypiaTos Xoyov diJi(f)6r€poL Xeyovres, t] ovtoj p,ev
dv BtJttov ravrd Xeyotp,ev; J!ivvex<x)p€i. 'AAA'
1 rbv add. Heiudorf.
428
EUTHYDEMUS
And yet Dionysodorus here believes I am vexed
with him. I am not vexed at all ; I only contradict
the remarks which I think he has improperly aimed
at me. Come now, my generous Dionysodorus, do
not call contradiction abuse abuse is quite another
:
thing.
On this Dionysodorus said As though there were
:
such a thing as contradiction Is that the way you

!
argue, Ctesippus ?
Yes, to be sure, he replied, indeed I do ; and do
you, Dionysodorus, hold that there is not ?
Well, you at any rate, he said, could not prove
that you had ever heard a single person contradicting
another.
Is that so ? he replied :well, let us hear now
whether —
can prove a case of it Ctesippus contra-
I
dicting Dionysodorus.
Now, will you make that good ?
Certainly, he said.
Well then, proceeded the other, each thing that
is has its own description ?
Certainly.
Then do you mean, as each is, or as it is not ?
As it is.
Yes, he said, for if you recollect, Ctesippus, we
showed just now that no one speaks of a thing as it
is not since we saw that no one speaks what is not.
;
Well, what of that ? asked Ctesippus are you

:
and I contradicting any the less ?

Now tell me, he said, could we contradict if we
both spoke the description of the same thing ?
In this case should we not surely speak the same
.vords ?
He agreed.
VOL. IV p 429
,
PLATO
orav /jLrjSerepos, €(f)rj, tov rov TrpdyfjiaTos Xoyov
B X^yj], Tore avTiXeyoLfiev av ; rj ovrco ye to Trapdirav
ovh dv jJieiJivrjfievos etrj tov TrpdyfiaTOS ovSerepog
q/JLcbv; Kat tovto cruvoJixoXoyeL. 'AAA' dpa, orav
eyd) p,ev tov tov Trpdyp,aTos Xoyov Xeyoi, av 8e
aAAou TLVos dXXov, TOTe avTiXeyofxev ; ^ eyd) Xeyco
fxev TO Trpdyiia, av Se ovhe XeyeLS to TrapdTTav 6
Se fxrj Xeyiov tco XeyovTi ttcos dv avTiXeyoi;
Kat o ixev KTriaiTTTros eaiyrjaev eyd) 8e dav-
fzdaas tov Xoyov, Yicos, €(f>r)v, u) AiovvaoSiope
C Xeyeis; ov ydp toi dAAo, tovtov ye tov Xoyov
noXXdiv St) Kal TToXXdKLs dKTjKodjs del Oavfjidlâ)
Kal ydp ol dfi(f)L UpcoTayopav a<f)6Spa expd)VTo
avTcp /cat OL ert naXaioTepoi,' ep.ol Se aet davfjiaaTOS
Tis SoKeX elvai Kal tovs re dXXov? dvaTpencov /cat
—
avTog avTov ot/xat Se avTov ttjv dXtÔeiav irapa
aov KoXXiOTa Trevaeadai. dXXo ri ifjevSi] Xeyeiv
ovK eaTi; tovto ydp Swarai o Xoyog' rj yap;
aAA T^ XeyovT* dXrjdrj Xeyeiv rj /jLTj Xeyeiv; Y^vv-
D e^dypei. Yiorepov ovv iftevSrj fiev Xeyeiv ovk eari,
ho^dl,eLV fxevToi, eariv; Ov8e So^dt,eLV, e^rj. OuS
dpa ipevhrjs, rjv 8' eyd), Soâ eari to TrapaTrav.
Ovk e(f)rj. Oi)8' dpa dfxaOia ovh^ dpiaOels dvdpoi-
TTOL- •^ ov rovr^ dv elrj dfiadia, eiTrep elvj, to ifjev-
SeaOai Td)V 7rpay/j,dTa)V ; Ildvv ye, €(f)r). AAAa

'The argument is that, if we cannot speak what is not, or
falsely, of a thing (this assumption being based on the old
confusion of being with existence), there can be only one
description of a thing in any given relation, and so there is
no room for contradiction. This argument is commonly
ascribed to Antisthenes, the founder of the Cynic sect and
opponent of Plato. It is not clear who exactly are meant
by *' the followers of Protagoras " or the "others before his
time."
430
—
EUTHYDEMUS
But when neither ot" us speaks the description of
the thing, he asked, then we should contradict ?
Or in this case shall we say that neither of us touched
on the matter at all ?
This also he admitted.
Well now, when I for my part speak the description
of the thing, while you give another of another thing,
do we contradict then ? Or do I describe the thing,
while you do not describe it at all ? How can he who
does not describe contradict him who does ? ^
At this Ctesippus was silent ; but I, wondering
at the argument, said How do you mean, Dionyso-
:
dorus ? For, to be plain -mth you, this argument,

though I have heard it from many people on various
occasions,
know the
—
never fails to set me wondering you
followers of Protagoras made great use
of it, as did others even before his time, but to
me it always seems to have a wonderful way of
upsetting not merely other views but itself also
and I believe I shall learn the truth of it from you
far better than from anyone else. There is no
—
such thing as speaking false that is the substance
of your statement, is it not ? Either one must
speak and speak the truth, or else not speak ?
He agreed.
Then shall we say that speaking false "is not," but
thinking false "is ? '
No, it is the same with thinking, he said.

So neither is there any false opinion, I said, at all.
No, he said.
Nor ignorance, nor ignorant men or must not
;
ignorance occur, if it ever can, when we put things

falsely ?
Certainly, he said.
431
PLATO
TOVTO ovK earcv, ^v S' iyco. Ovk e(f>T). Aoyov
evcKa, c5 AiovvaoSojpe, Xeyeis rov Xoyov, Iva hrj
aroTTOv Xiyrjs, r^ ws dXrjOcos So/cet aoi ovSels elvai
E afxadrjs dvdpcoTTOiv; 'AAAo. av, ^^y], eXeyôv. *H.

/cat €CTTi TOVTO KaTo, Tov GOV Xoyov , iêXeyâL,
fiTjbevos iftevSofievov ; Ovk eamv, €<f)Y) 6 EuûSry/xo?.
OuS' dpa cKeXevev, e^rjv eyu), vvv Srj ALOvvaoScupos
iêXiyâi; To yap firj ov ttcos dv tis /ceAeucrai; ai)
8e KeXeveis; "On, riv 8' iyo), c5 lEivdvSrjue, ret
ao(f)d Tavra Kal to. ev exovTa ov irdvv ti [xavddvco,

dXXd TTa')(io)s TTws ivvocb. tacos p.€V ovv (fyopTi-
KcoTcpov Ti ip-qaofiai. aAAa avyyiyvcocrKe, Spa

287 Se* ei yap jxt^Te i/jevSeaOat eoTi p^rfTe i//€vSrj So^d-
^tiv /jb-qTC dfiaOrj elvai, aAAo tl oj)8' iâfiapTdvetv
eoTiv, oTav tls ti TTpdTTT); TrpaTTOvra yap ovk

eoTiv d/xapraveiv tovtov o TrpaTTei' ov^ ovtco
XiyeTe; Wdvv y , e^rj. Touto iaTtv r]8r], rjv 8
eyoi, TO (f)opTLK6v ipcoTTjiJia. el yap p,7j apiapTavofMev
fiT^Te TTpdTTOvTes p^r^Te XeyovTeg p^rfTe Siavoov-
p.€VOL, vfxeXs, c5 TTpos Alos, el TavTa ovtcos ex^'»
TtVotf StSacTKaAoi rJKeTe; ^ ovk dpTi eâTe dpeTrjv

B KaXXtoT^ dv irapahovvai dvdpcoucov Tip edeXovTi
p,avddveLV ;
Etr', e<î7, cS HcoKpaTeg, 6 AiovvaoBcupos imo-

432
—
EUTHYDEMUS
But there is no such thing as this, I said.
No, he said.
Is it merely to save your statement, Dionysodorus,
—
that you state it so just to say something startling
or is it really and truly your view that there is no
such thing as an ignorant man ?
But you, he replied, are to refute me.
Well, does your argument allow of such a thing
as refutation, if there is nobody to speak false ?
There is no such thing, said Euthydemus.
So neither did Dionysodorus just now bid me
refute him ? I asked.
No, for how can one bid something that is not ?
Do you bid such a thing ?
Well, Euthydemus, I said, it is because I do not
at all understand these clever devices and palpable
hits : I am
only a dull sort of thinker. And so I
may perhaps be going to say something rather
clownish but you must forgive me. Here it is
; if
:
there is no such thing as speaking false or think-

ing false or being stupid, surely there can be no
making a mistake either, when one does some-
thing. For in doing it there is no mistaking the
thing that is done. You will state it so, will you
not ?
Certainly, he said.
My clownish question, I went on, is now already
before you. If we make no mistake either in doing
or saying or intending, I ask you what in Heaven's
name, on that assumption, is the subject you two set
up to teach. Or did you not say just now that your
speciality was to put any man who wished in the
way of learning virtue ?
Now really, Socrates, interposed Dionysodorus,
433
;
PLATO
AajSwp', ovTcog et Kpovos, ware d to TrpcoTOV
etTTo/xev vvv avafxifxvTâKei, Kal ei,' rt TrepvGLV elrrov,
vvv dvafivrjad-qaei., tols S' iv ru) Trapovn Aeyo/xeVot?
ovx ^$€is o TL xpfl> ôX yap, e<j>riv lyoi, xaXi.Tvol
eiat TTavv, eiKOTCos' Trapa ao<f)a)V yap Xeyovrai'
Kal rovrcp to) reXevraicp TrayxaXeTTov XP^^^~
evret
aOai ear IV, co Xeyets. to yap ovk eô) o ri

Xpcofiai ri TTore XeyeLs, <L ALOvvaoScope ; t) Sr]Xov
C on OVK exî iêXeyâi avrov; inel etTre, ri

CO?
aoL aXXo voel rovro to prj/xa, to ovk e;âj o ti
XP'>]aa)fiai rots Xoyois; 'AAA' o av Xeyeis, €(f)r],
rovrcp yôv ^ Trdvv xaXenov xpT](^0aL- errel aTTOKpivai,.
Ylplv ae oiTTOKpivaaOai, rjv 8' eyd), cS Aiovvaohojpe

Ovk oLTTOKpivci; ^<f>'f)- *H /cat SiKacov; At-
Kaiov fjLevrot,, Kara rlva Xoyov; "qv 8'
€(f)r].
iyo)' rj SrjXov on Kara, rovSe, on ai) vvv 7Tdvao<f>6s

ns "qfilv d(f)iâi Trepl Xoyovs, Kal olad* ore Set
d-noKpivaadai Kal ore firj; Kal vvv ovS^ av onovv
D dTTOKpivei, are yiyvwaKcov otl ov Set; AaAet?,
€(f)r], dpceXtâas drroKpivaaOaL- dAA', w ^yadi,
TTeidov Kal dTTOKpivov, eTreiS-^ Kal ofioXoyels pie
ao<j)6v etvai. Heiareov roivvv, "^v 8' eyco, Kal

dvdyKT], (Ls eoLKe- av yap dpxeis' dXX' epcora.
Ilorepov ^vx^v exovra voel rd voovvra,
ovv
rj Kal rd dipvxa; Ta ^vx^jv exovra. Otada ovv
1 y' oil Badharn : t(^ mss,
* i.e. voe7, " intend."

434
EUTHYDFAIUS
are you such an old dotard as to recollect now what we
said at first, and will you now recollect what I may
have said last year, and yet be at a loss how to deal
with the arguments urged at the moment ?
Well, you see, I replied, they are so very hard,
and naturally so ; for they fall from the lips of wise
men ; and this is further shown by the extreme
difficulty of dealing with this last one you put forward.
For what on earth do you mean, Dionysodorus, by
saying I am at a loss how to deal with it ? Or is it
clear that you mean I am at a loss how to refute it ?
You must tell me what else your phrase can intend,
" at a loss how to deal with the arguments."
But it is not so very hard to deal with that phrase ^
of yours, he said. Just answer me.
Before you answer me, Dionysodorus? I protested.
You refuse to answer ? he said.
Is it fair ?
Oh yes, it is fair enough, he replied.

On what principle ? I asked or is : it plainly on
this one —that you present yourself
to us at this
moment as universally skilled in discussion, and thus
can tell when an answer is to be given, and when
not ? So now you wll not answer a word, because
you discern that you ought not to
What nonsense you talk, he said, instead of
answering as you should. Come, good sir, do as I
bid you and answer, since you confess to my wisdom.
Well then, I must obey, I said, and of necessity,
it seems for you are the master here.
; Now for
your question.
Then tell me, do things that " intend " have hfe
when they intend, or do hfeless things do it too ?
Only those that have life.
435
,
PLATO
Ti, €<f>r], prjfjLa fpvx^v exov; Ma
At" ovk eyojye.
E Tt ovv apri Tjpov, 6 ri jxoi vooZ to prjfxa; Ti ctAAo
ye, rjv 8 eyto, •^ e^7]p,apTov Sto, rrjv ^XaKeiav; iq
OVK dAAa /cat tovto opdoJs cIttov,

€îqp,apTov,
elnoiv OTt voet ra puj/jiaTa; Trorepa (f>fjs eâp,ap-
rdveiv pie t] ov; el yap pirj i^rjpbaprov ouSe cru ,
f'êAeyêt?, KaiTrep ao<f)6g wv, oi38' €;^;ets o ti
}-pfj
to) Adyo)* et S' e^-qpLapTOV, ouS' ovtcos opOcos
288 Aeyet?, <f)daKO)v ovk elvai €âp,apTdv€t,v Kai
TavTa ov TTpos a
eXeyes Aeyo).
Trepvaiv aAAd
€otK€v, €(f)r)v eyo), a> AiovvaoScope re /cat Euî;8T7/Me,
OUTO? /xep* d Adyo? ev rauTo) fieveLV, Kal eTL coaTrep
TO TTaXaiov KaTaâXwv 7TL7TT€lv, Kal (LaTe tovto
fjir) 7Tdax€iv, oi'S' vtto ttjs u/ttrepas' ttco Texvr]?
eêvprjadai, Kal Tavra ovtojoI davpLaoT-qs ovar]s
els aKpiêiav Xoyiav.
Kat d
YiTrjaiTTTTOs , Savpudaid ye Aeyer', €(f)r],
B u) dvSpes QovpioL eire Xtot eW^ orroOev Kal ottt)
XaipeTov ovopiaôpLevoi' d)s ovSev vpXv /xeAet tov
TTapaXrjpelv.
Kat eyo) (f)o^rj9eLS, pLrj XoiSopCa yevrjTat, TrdXtv
KaTeirpdiivov tov l^TiqannTOV Kal eiTTOV Q. Ktt^ct-
177776, Kal vvv d 77pd? KAetvtav eXeyov, Kal
Stj
TTpos ore TavTO. raura Xeyco, oti ov yiyvoiOKeis

Tcbv êvoiv TTjV ao<j)iav, oti davp.aaia ecrrtV* dAA'
ovk edeXeTOV rjplu eTTiheiâadai OTTOvSdôvTe
dXXd TOV YlpojTea pLipLeladov tov AlyvTTTLOv ao<j)i-
1
Cf. above, 271 c.
Cf. Homer, Od. iv. 385 foil.
* Proteus was an ancient
seer of the sea who, if one could catch him as he slept on
the shore and hold him fast while he transformed himself
into a variety of creatures, would tell one the intentions of
the gods, the fate of absent friends, etc.
436
EUTHYDEMUS
Now do you know any phrase that has hfe ?
Upon my soul, I do not.
Why then did you ask just now what my phrase
intended ?
Of course I made a great mistake, I said ; I am
such a dullard. Or perhaps it was not a mistake,
and I was right in saying what I did, that phrases
intend. Do you say I was mistaken or not ? If I
was not, then you will not refute me, with all your
skill, and you are at a loss how to deal with the argu-
ment ; while if I was mistaken, you are in the wrong
there, too, for you assert that there is no such thing
as making a mistake ; and what I say is not aimed
at what you said last year. But it seems, I went on,
Dionysodorus and Euthydemus, that our argument
remains just where it was, and still suffers from the
old trouble of knocking others down and then falling
itself, and even your art has not yet discovered a
—
way of avoiding this failure in spite, too, of the
wonderful show it makes of accurate reasoning.
Here Ctesippus exclaimed : Yes, your way of
discussion is marvellous, you men of Thurii or Chios ^
or wherever or however it is you are pleased to get
your names ; for you have no scruple about babbling
like fools. 9
At was afraid we might hear some abuse,
this I
so soothed Ctesippus down once more, saying
I :
Ctesippus, I repeat to you what I said to Cleinias

just now, that you do not perceive the wonderful
nature of our visitors' skill. Only they are unwilling
to give us a display of it in real earnest, but treat
us to jugglers' tricks in the style of Proteus ^ the
VOL. IV p 2 437
.
PLATO
C arr^v yorjTevom'e i^/xa?. rjfjielg ovv rov MeveXaov
fjLLfxcLfxeda, Kal fir) aîtoêâ rolv dvBpolv, ecu?
civ r]fxtv €K(f)avrJTov, i(f>' w avrco aTTOvSaêTov

olfiaiyap ri avrolv TrdyKoXov <f)av€ladai, enei^dv
dp^wvrai oTTovSalêiv dXXd hecLfx^da Kal irapa-
Hvdcofxeda Kal TrpoCTeup^co/xeâ avrolv €K(f>avrjvaL.
lyu) ovv pLoi 8oK(o Kal avros TraAti' v^rjyrjcraadai.,

oloi TTpoaevxofiai avrd) <f)av7Jvai, ixoi- odev yap
D TO TTporepov dTreXiiTOV, to e^^? rovroi? TTeipdao/jiai,
oTTios dv Svvco/jiai, SieXdelv, idv ttcos cKKaXe-

aojfMai Kal iXeijcravTe /Lie /cat olKTeipavre avv-
reraixivov Kal aTTOvSdôvra Kal avrd) aTTov8dar)Tov
Hv 8e, CO KAeti'ta, ecfyrjv, dvafivqaov /x,6, nodev
ror (ZTTeAtTro/xev. c5? /xev ovv iyw/xai, evdivhe
TTodev. (f)LXocrocl)TjT€OV cofioXoy-qaafiev reXevToJVTes'
q ydp; Nat, rj h og. 'H 8e ye <f)iXoao<f>ia KTrjaig
iTTLaTijfxrjS' ovx ovtojs; €(f)r]v. Nat, ecf>r]. TiVa

ttot' ovv dv KTrjodfievoi iTnaTT^firjv 6pda>s ktt)-
E valfxeda; dp^ ov rovro [xev aTrXovv, tJtls rj/xag
ov-qaec; Hdvv y*, €(f)rj. Âp* ovv dv tl -qp-ds
ovrjoeiev, el iTnaraipêda yiyvcoaKeiv vepiLovreg,

OTTOV TTJs yrjg p^pyCTtov TrXeloTov KaropcopvKTai;
"laojs, ^cl)'rj. 'AAAd to rrpoTepov, i^v S iycj
rovTo ye i^7]Xeyâfxev, otl ovSev ttXcov, ouS' et
dvev irpaypLdraJv Kal tov dpvTTeiv ttjv yrjv to
TTOv -qpuv ;)(puaiov yevoiTO' tooTe oj58' el ra?
2S9 TTeTpas p^puaa? eTriorai/xeâ TTOtelv, ovSevos dv
»
Cf. Horn. Od. iv. 456. * Of. 282 d.
438
EUTHYDEMUS
Egyptian adept. So let us take our cue from
Menelaus,^ and not leave hold of these gentlemen
till they give us a sight of their own serious business.
I believe something very fine will be found in them

as soon as they begin to be serious. Come, let us
beg and exhort and beseech them to let their light
shine. For my part, then, I am minded to take the
lead once more in showing what sort of persons I
pray may be revealed in them starting from where
:
I left offbefore, I shall try, as best I can, to describe

what follows on from that, to see if I can rouse them
to action and make them, in merciful commiseration
of my earnest endeavour, be earnest themselves.
Will you, Cleinias. I asked, please remind me of the
point at which we left off ? Now, as far as I can tell,
it was something like this : we ended by agreeing
that one ought to pursue wisdom, did we not ? ^
Yes, he said.
—
And this pursuit called philosophy is an acquir- —
ing of knowledge. Is it not so ? I asked.
Yes, he said.
Then what knowledge should we acquire if we
acquired it rightly ? Is it not absolutely clear that
it must be that knowledge which will profit us ?
Certainly, he said.
Now will it profit us at all, if we know how to tell,
as we go about, where the earth has most gold buried
in it ?
Perhaps, he said.
But yet, I went on, we refuted that former pro-
position, agreeing that even if without any trouble
or digging the earth we got all the gold in the world,
we should gain nothing, so that not if we knew how
to turn the rocks into gold would our knowledge
439
PLATO
aî'a rj eTnarrijxrj etr]' el yap fxr) Kal j^p'^crât
€7TLaTr]a6[xeda tco ;^/?UCTta>, ovhev 6(f)eXos avTO

€<f>dvr) 6v "q ov fiefivrâaL ; ecfj-qv iyco, Flai-'U y ,
e(f>rj, fjL€fj,V7]fxaL. OuSe ye, a»? eoi/ce, rrjg dXXrjs
eTTLarri^r^S ockeXog y iyver ai ovhev, ovre ;^/3r^/xa-
TtaTLKrjg ovre larpLKrjg ovre dXXr]s ouSe/xia?,
17x19 TTOieZv Tt eTTLaraTai, ;^/3^cr0ai 8e fxrj co av

TTOi-qar)' ovx ovrcog ; Tivve(f)r]. OvSe ye el ris
B eanv eTTiarrnxT], cuore ddavaTOV? TTOielv, dvev

rov eTriaraadai tj] ddavaaia )(pr\adaL, oiiê ravrrjs
eoLKev oSeXos ovSev elvai, el rotg rrpoadev (h/xoXo-
yqixevois reKpLaipeadai Set. Sut-eSo/cet -qixlv
TTovra ravra. Toiavrrjs rivog dpa rj/juu evi-
aT7]fir)s Set, c5 KaXe TraZ, tjv S' eyu), ev fj

avpLiri-
TTTCOKev dp.a to re Trotett' kol to eTriaraaOai XP'^^^'^'-
TOVTO), o dv TTOLjj. OatVcTat, €(f>rj. IloXXou

dpa Set, a»s" eoiKev, rjfxds XvpoTToiovs Selv eiiât
C Kal TOLavrrjg rtvos eTnaTrjjxrjs eTT-qôXovg. ev-
ravda yap 8rj

x^P'-^ h^^ V "noLOvaa Texvrj, x^P'-^
Se 7] XP^H-^^V* Str^pTyrai 8e rov avrov irepf rj
yap XvpoTTOUKT) /cat rj KidapLaTLKrj ttoXv Sta-
(f)epeTOV dXXijXoLV' ovx ovrcos; Yivvet^rj. OuSe

^rjv avXoTTOUKTJs ye SijXop ort he6p,e9a' /cat yap
avTTj erepa TOLavrrj. TiVveBoKCi. 'AAAd Trpos
dean', e<f>r]v eyoi, el ttjv XoyoirouKrjv Texvqv fiddoi/xey,

440
EUTHYDEMUS
be of any worth. For unless we know how to use the
gold, we found no advantage in it. Do you not
remember ? I asked.
Certainly I do, he said.

Nor, it seems, do we get any advantage from all
other knowledge, whether of money-making or
medicine or any other that knows how to make things,
without knowing how to use the thing made. Is
it not so ?
He agreed.
Nor again, if there is a knowledge enabling one
to make men immortal, does this, if we lack the
knowledge how to use immortality, seem to bring
any advantage either, if we are to infer anything
from our previous admissions.
On all these points we agreed.
Then the sort of knowledge we require, fair
youth, I said, is that in which there happens to be a
union of making and knowing how to use the thing
made.
Apparently, he said.
So we ought, it seems, to aim at something far
other than being lyre-makers or possessing that
kind of knowledge. For in this case the art that
makes and the art that uses are quite distinct,
deahng in separation with the same thing ; since
there is a wide difference between the art of
making lyres and that of harp - playing. Is it
not so ?
He agreed.
Nor again, obviously, do we require an art of flute-
making for this is another of the same kind.
;
He assented.
Now in good earnest, I asked, if we were to learn
441
PLATO
apd iariv avrr}, fjv eSet K€KT7)ij,€vov9 rjfids evSai-
/jLOvag eivai; Ovk oljxai, e(j)r], lyoi, 6 KAeivta?
D VTToXafiwv. TivL T€Kixrjpii^, rjv 8'
eyiv, XPf)'>
*Opco, e(f)rj, Tim? XoyoTTOiovs, ot Tot? tStot?
Xoyoig, 019 avTol ttolovglv, ovk eTnaravrai )(pr]adaL,
woTTep ol XvpoTTOLol Tttt? Xvpais, aAAd Kal ivravda
dXXoi Svvarol xprjodai ols €K€lvol elpydcravTo, ol
XoyoTToielv avrol aSwaroi* hr]Xov ovv on kol
776/31 Xoyovs X^P'S" y] rod noielv ri'xyri koL -q rov
Xp-qadai.
'iKavov fjioi 8oK€LS, ecfyrjv iy(6, TeKjxrjpiov XeyeLV,
on ovx CLvrr) eanv rj tcDv' XoyoTTOiaiv re-xyq, rfv dv
KTrjad/xevo? ng evSaijXOJV eir). fcatrot eyco w/x-qv
iuTavdd 7TOV (l>avrja€adaL rrjv e7naTiqiJ.r]v, -qv 8rj
E TTttAai ^rjTovncv. Kal ydp /xoi ot re duSpcs dvrol

ol XoyoTTOioi, orav avyy€VO)p,aL avrols, vTr€pao(f)oi,
io KA€t^'ta, SoKovoLV elvai, Kal avrr] tj rexvq avrcbv

deaneala n? Kal vifs-qXn]. Kal fxivroi ovhkv
davfxaarov eon ydp rfjs rdjv eircoBdju rexyqs
290 P'Opiov ap-iKpo) re eKelvrjs viroSeearepa. rj p.ev
ydp rdJv e7Ta)SdJi> exechv re Kal cfyaXayyiajv Kal

aKOpTTLOJV Kal rd>v dXXcov diqpioiv re Kal voacov
KrjX-qais eanv, rj 8e SLKaardJv re /cat eKKXrjaiaarihv
Kal rdJv dXXcov 6xXa>v KtjXrjaLS re Kal TTapap.vdia
rvyxdvei ovaa' rj aoi, e(f)rjv eyd), dXXcog ttco? SoKel;
Ovk, dAA' ovro) /xot (f)aiverai, e(f>rj, cos crv Xeyetg.
Hot ovv, e(f>'qv eyoi, rpaTTOLp.ed dv en; em iroiav
rexvrjv; 'Eytu fiev ovk eimopd), €(f)r]. 'AAA',

qv 8' eyd), ep,e olfxat, evprjKevai. TtVa; e(f)rj o
442
EUTHYDEMUS
the art of speech-making, can that be the art we
should acquire if we would be happy ?
I for one think not, said Cleinias, interposing.
On what proof do you rely ? I asked.

I see, he said, certain speech-^\Titers who do not
know how to use the special arguments composed
by themselves, just as lyre-makers in regard to their
lyres: in the former case also there are other persons
able to use what the makers produced, while being
themselves unable to make the written speech.
Hence it is clear that in speech likewise there are two
distinct arts, one of making and one of using.
I think you give sufficient proof, I said, that this
art of the speech-writers cannot be that whose acqui-

sition would make one happy. And yet I fancied
that somewhere about this point would appear
the knowledge which we have been seeking all
this while. For not only do these speech-writers
themselves, when I am in their company, impress
me as prodigiously clever, Cleinias, but their art
itself seems so exalted as to be almost inspired.
However, this is not surprising ; for it is a part of
the sorcerer's art, and only slightly inferior to that.
The sorcerer's art is the charming of snakes and
tarantulas and scorpions and otlier beasts and
diseases, while the other is just the charming and
soothing of juries, assemblies, crowds, and so forth
Or does it strike you differently ? I asked.
No, it appears to me, he replied, to be as you sav.
Which way then, said I, shall we turn now ?
What kind of art shall we trj- ?
For my part, he said, I have no suggestion.
Why, I think I have found it myself, I said.
What is it ? said Cleinias.
443
.
PLATO
B KAetwa?. *H aTpaT7)yLKT] fioi. SoKet, ecftrjv ky<ji
ri'yvT] TxavTos [laXKov elvat, 7]^ av Tt? KTr]adfJL€VOS
cvSaifjLOJV etrj. Ovk e/MOtye SoKel. Hcos; '^v
S' iyo). QrjpevTiKTi ris i^Se yi iari T^xyi] dvOpco-
vcov. Tt 8rj ovv; ecf)r]u iyo). Ov8ep.i,a, €(f)r],
TTJS 6r]p€VTlKT]S aVTTJS €7tI TtXeOV €<JtIv Tf OOOV

drjpevGai /cat ;^€tpa)craCT0ai* eVeiSav 8e x^'-P^'
ocovrai rovro, o dv hvvavrai
drjpevojvrat,, ov
TOVTCp xprjodai, aAA' ot /xev KvvrjyeTai, Kal ol
dXiCLS roLS oijjOTTOiOLS 7Tapa8L86aatv, ol S' av
yewfierpaL Kal ol darpovofioi Kal ol XoyiarLKoi —
C OrjpevTiKol ydp elai Kal ovTOf ov yap Tioiovai
TO SiaypdfMixara iKaaroL rovrtov, dXXd rd ovra
—
dvevpioKovatv are ovv xpiâdaj. avTols ovk eVt-
arajxevoL, dXXd drjpevaai fxovov, 7Tapa8i86aai Stjttov
Toi? SiaXeKTiKOLS KaTaxp-fjadai avTcbv toIs (vp-q-
jxaaiv, oaoi ye avTd)V fxr) TravrdTraaiv dvorjroi elaiv.
tev, rjv o eyoj, w KaAAiaTe Kai ao<pajTare
KAetvia* TovTO ovrco^ ^X^*'
Hdvv fj,€v ovv Kal OL ye arpaTrjyol, ^(f>'Q, ovtoj
Tov avrdv Tpoirov, eTreiSdv ^ noXiv riva drjpevauiv-
D Ttti ^ arparoTTehov, TrapahihoaoL tols ttoXltlkols
dvhpdaiv avTol ydp ovk eTriaravTai XP"^^^^^
rovTOis, a edripevaav oiOTxep, oi/xat, ot oprvyo-
drjpai TOLS dprvyorpoôts TTapaSiSoaaiv. el ovv,
"^ S' OS, Seofjieda €K€lvt]s rrjs Texvrjs, rjns <S dv
KTT]<T7]Tai •^ TTOt-qaaaa t] dr]pevaap.€V7] avrr) Kai
eTTLcrriqaeTaL ;(/37^CTât, /cat 17 Toiavrrj -noi-qaei
rjfjid?fiaKapiovs, dXXrjV S'q riva, €(f>r), ^T^rrjreov
dvrl rrjs GTpar-qyiKrjs
^ i.e. geometers etc. are not to be regarded as mere
makers of diagrams, these being only the necessary and
444.
EUTHYDEMUS
Generalship, I replied, strikes me as the art whose
acquisition above all others would make one happy.
I do not think so.
Why not ? I asked.
In a sense, this is an art of hunting men.
What then ? I said.
•
No part of actual hunting, he replied, covers more
than the province of chasing and overcoming ; and
when they have overcome the creature they are
chasing, they are unable to use it the huntsmen or
:
the fishermen hand it over to the caterers, and so it

is too Aîth the geometers, astronomers, and cal-
—
culators for these also are hunters in their way,
since they are not in each case diagram-makers, but
—
discover the realities of things ^ and so, not knowing
how to use their prey, but only how to hunt, I take
it they hand over their discoveries to the dialecticians
to use properly, those of them, at least, who are not

utter blockheads.
Very good, I said, most handsome and ingenious
Cleinias ; and is this really so ?
To be sure it is ; and so, in the same way, with the

generals. When they have hunted either a city or
an army, they hand it over to the politicians since —
they themselves do not know how to use what they
—
have hunted ^just as quail-hunters, I suppose, hand
over their birds to the quail-keepers. If, therefore,
he went on, we are looking for that art which itself
shall know how to use what it has acquired either in
making or chasing, and if this is the sort that will
make us blest, we must reject generalship, he said,
and seek out some other.
common machinery for their real business, the discovery of
mathematical and other abstract truths.
445
;
PLATO
E KPI. Ti Aeyei? av, w Hcokpares , CKelvo to
fietpoLKiov TOiaur' €<f>diyâTo;
2n. OvK o'Ui, o) Kptrcov;
KPI. Ma A" ov fxevTOi. otfiai yap avrov
cyo), el ravr* elrrev, ovr* YtvBvhr^pLov ovre aXKov
ovhevos er' dvdpcoTTOV heladai els TratSet'ai'.
2n, AAA' dpa, J} TTpos Aios, p-r] 6 Kr-qaiTTTTos
•^v 6 ravr' elrrcov, eycb 8e ov p,ep,vrjp,aL;
291 KPI. IloLos KrTâiTTTTOS
2n. 'AAAa p,7]v TO ye eS ol8a, on ovre Eivdv-
Sry/xo? ovre AtovvaoSojpos ?jv 6 elnojv ravTa- aAA ,

c5 âLp,6vie KpiTCDV, p,-q ris twp Kpetrroviov Trapojv
avrd e^deyâro ; on yap rJKOvad ye ravra, ev
oiSa.
KPI. Nat p,d /S.ia, c5 Sto/cpare?* rcov KpeiTrovuyv
fievTOL ris ep.OL hoKel, koI ttoXv ye. dXXd pêra
rovTO en rivd et^rirriaare rexvy]v ; Kal rjvpere
eKeivrjv ^ ovx rjvpere, rjs evcKa etprjTelre;
B 2n. Ylodev, c5 piaKapie, evpop,ev ; oAA r^piev
TTovv yeAotoi, oiairep rd TraiSta rd rovs KopvSovs
htajKOvra' del coopêda eKdarrjv tojv eVcoTT^/xajv
avTLKa at S' del V7Teê(j)vyov
XrjtjjeaOaL, rd p,ev .
ovv TToXXd ri dv aoi Xeyoip,i ; IttI he 8r) rrjv âai-

Xlktjv eXdovres rexvrjv Kal hiaaKOTTOvp,evoL avrrjv,
el avTT] etr) rj rrjV evhaipoviav iTapexpvaa re
Kal d7T€pyaôp,evT] , evravda axnrep els Xa^vpivdov
ipuTTeaovres, ol6p,evoi rjSr] em reXei etP'at, Trept-
C Kdpipavres ttoAlv woTrep ev dpxfj rrjs Crjr-qaeios av-
e(f)dvr)p,ev ovres Kal rod taov SeopevoL, ocrovnep
ore TO vpcoTov e^r)rovp.ev.
KPI. IldJs 817 rovro vplv avve^rj, a> HwKparesi
446
EUTHYDEMUS
CRi. What is this, Socrates ? Such a pronounce-
ment from that striphng !
see. You do not believe it is his, Crito ?
CRI. I should rather think not. For I am sure,

ifhe spoke thus, he has no need of education from
Euthydemus or anyone else.
soc. But then. Heaven help me I wonder if it !
was Ctesippus who said it, and my memory fails

me.
CRI. Very like Ctesippus I
soc. Well, of this at any rate I am certain, that

it was neither Euthydemus nor Dionysodorus who
said it. Tell me, mysterious Crito, was it some
superior power that was there to speak it ? For that
speech I heard, I am sure.
CRI. promise you, Socrates
Yes, I : I fancy it was
indeed some superior power very — much so. But
after that, did you go on looking for a suitable art ?
Did you find the one which you had as the object
of your search, or not ?
soc. Find my
good fellow
it, No, we were in !
a most ridiculous state hke children who run after

;
crested larks, we kept on beheving each moment we

were just going to catch this or that one of the
knowledges, while they as often shpped from our
grasp. What need to tell you the story at length ?
When we reached the kingly art, and were examining
it to see if we had here what proxides and produces
happiness, at this point we were involved in a

lab}Tinth when we supposed we had arrived at the
:
end, we twisted about again and found ourselves

practically at the beginning of our search, and just
as sorely in want as when we first started on it.
CRI. How did this happen to you, Socrates ?
447
PLATO
2n. Eyco ^pdaco. eSoê yap Brj rijxZv -q ttoAi-
TLKT] Koi 7] âcnXiK-^ T€xvf] I? cLVTrj etvai.
Tt ovv S-q;
KPi.
TavTT] r-fj re^vr) rj re aTparrjyiKrj /cat at
5fl.
aAAat TTapabiSovaL apxeiv TCt)V epycov, (Lv avral

hrjjxiovpyoi elaiv, ws p-ovr) iTTiaTafxevrj y^priadaL.
aa<l>ws ovv eSo/cet rjiiZv avrrj elvai, rjv i^rjrovfxev,
D /cat rj airta rov opdibs TTpdrreiv ev rfj vroAet, /cat
drexvoJS Kara to AlaxvXov lafjiêlov p,6uT] iv

Tjj TTpvjJivrj KadrjadaL ttjs ttoXccos, TTavra KVêp-
vcbaa /catTrdvTiov dpôvaa TrdvTa ;^/37jo't/xa 770tetv.
KPI. OvKovv KaXws vfxlv eSo/cet, c5 HcLt/c/jarej;

2n. 2u Kptvels, c5 K/atTo;!', eav ôvAj] aKoveiv
/cat TO, /x€Ta ravra aujx^dvra rjixtv. avdis ydp
8r) -ndXiv iaKOTTOVfiev coSe ttojs' ê'/ae, irduroiv
dpxovaa rj âcnXiKT] Texvrj rl tj/jlIv aTrepydêraL
E epyov, T] ovhev ; Xldvrw? St^ttov, rjfiels €(f)afX€V
rrpos oXXtjXovs. Ov /cat ctu av ravra (f)aLrjs, cS
KpLTOJV;
KPI. "Eiycoye.
2n. Tt ow av âirjs avrrjs epyov etvai; Oiaircp
et ak iyd) epcorcLrjv, TrdvTOjv dpxovoa rj larpiKifj, cov
dpx€i, rl epyov Trapex^rai ; ov rrjv vyUiav âirjs;
KPI. "Eyojye.
Tt hi;
2n. rj vfjierepa rexvrj rj yecopyta, Trdvrcov
292 dpxovaa, wv apxî, ri epyov anepydêraL ; ov
rr)v rpocfyrjv dv (fjacrjg rrjv e/c rrjs yfjs napexeiv
rjliXv;
KPI. "Eycuye.
^
Cf. Aesch. Septem, 2 " Whoso at helm of the state
keeps watch upon affairs, guiding the tiller without resting
his eyelids in sleep."
448
EUTHYDEMUS
soc. I will tell you. We
took the view that the
statesman's and the monarch's arts were one and the'
same.
CRi. Well, what then ?
soc. To we thought, generalship and the

this art,
other arts handed over the management of the
productions of their own trades, as this one alone
knew how to use them. So it seemed clear to us
that this was the one we were seeking, and was the
cause of right conduct in the state, and precisely
as Aeschylus' line ^ expresses it, is seated alone at
the helm of the city, steering the whole, command-
ing the whole, and making the whole useful.
CRI. And surely your notion was a good one,
Socrates ?
soc. You shall judge of that, Crito, if you care
to hear what befell us thereafter. For later
on we reconsidered it somewhat in this manner :
Look now, does the monarch's art, that rules over

all, produce any effect or not ? Certainly it does,
of course, we said to one another. Would you not
say so too, Crito ?
CRI. I would.
soc. Then what would you say is its effect ?
For instance, if I were to ask you whether medicine,
in ruling over all that comes under its rule, has
any effect to show ; would you not say : Yes,
health ?
CRI. I would.
soc. And what about yoiu* art of agriculture ?
In ruUng over all that comes under its rule, what
effect does it produce ? Would you not say that it
supplies us with food from the earth ?
CRI. I would.
449
; ; ,
PLATO
sn. Ti Se; -q âaiXiKr^ Trdvrmv apxovaa, tSi^
^PX^'-' "^^ OLTrepydêraL; laojs ov Trdvv y evrropels.
KPI. Ma Tov Ata, CO Scu/cpare?.
2n. OvBe yap rjfMels, c5 Kplrcov dXXd roaovSe
yi olada, on eLvep icrrlv avrrj r]v rjfiels ^r]TOvp.€v,
(l}(f>eXLixov avTTjv Set elvai.
KPi. Udvv ye.
2n. OvKovv dyadov ye Ti. Set •fjp.lv avrrjv
rrapaSiSovai
KPI. ÂvdyKT], <L HicoKpares.
B 2n. Ayadov Se ye ttov (L/jLoXoyqaa/jiev dXXqXoig
eyoj T€ KttL KXeLvlas ouSev' etvai oAAo ^ eTTLaT-qiJLrjv
TLvd.
KPI. Nat, ovTcus eXeyes.
2X1. OvKovv TO, fjLev dXXa epya, d âirj dv rt?
—rroAAa Se
TToXiTiKrjs elvat rayr' dv olov
ttov etrj,
TrXovaiovg rovs TToXtras Trapexeiv eXevdepovs /cat
/cat aaraatdcrTovg —navra ravra ovre ovre /ca/ca
ayadd i(f)dvrj, eSet Se ao(f)Ovs TTOieZv /cat eTnGT-q/xrjg
/xeraSiSdi'at, etTrep efxeXXev avrrj elvai 7] d}(f>eXovad
C Te /cat evSaifjiovas iroiovaa.
KPI. EcTTi ravra' rore
yovv ovrcos VjxZv <hiio
XoyT]drj, cos ai)rovs Xoyovs diT'qyyeLXas.
5n. 'Ap ovv rj âaiXiKT] Gocf)ovs TTOiel rovs
avdpcoTTovs /cat dyaOovs;
KPI. Tt yap KcoXvei, c3 HcoKpares
2n. AAA' dpa irdvras /cat ndvra dyadovs; /cat
ndaav eTnar-q/j.rjv, aKvrorofxiKqv re /cat reKro-
vLKTjv Kai ras dXXas dirdaas, avrrj rj TrapaSiSovad
eariv;
KPI. OvK oi/xai eycoye, c5 HcoKpares.
D' 2n. 'AAAa TiVa Brj errKTrrjjxrjv ; ri xP'rjcrdjieOa
fj
450
EUTHYDEMUS
soc. And what of the monarch's art ? In ruling
over allthat comes under its rule, what does it
produce ? Perhaps you are not quite ready ydih.
the answer.
CRi. I am not indeed, Socrates.
soc. Nor were we, Crito yet so much you know,
;
that if this is really the one we are seeking, it must

be beneficial.
CRI. Certainly.
soc. Then surely it must purvey something good ?
CRI. Necessarily, Socrates.

soc. And you know we agreed with each other,
Cleinias and I, that nothing can be good but some
sort of knowledge.
CRI. Yes, so you told me.
soc. And it was found that all effects in general
that you may ascribe to statesmanship and a great —
many of them there must be, presumably, if the
citizens are to be made wealthy and free and immune
—
from faction all these things were neither bad nor
good, while this art must make us wise and impart
knowledge, if it really was to be the one which
benefited us and made us happy.
CRI. True so at all events you agreed then, by
:
your account of the discussion.

soc. Then do you think that kingship makes men
wise and good ?
CRI. Why not, Socrates ?
soc. But does it make all men good, and in all

things ? And is this the art that confers every sort
—
of knowledge shoe-making and carpentry and so
forth?
CRI. No, I think not, Socrates.
soc. Well, what knowledge does it give ? What
451
. ;
PLATO
rcjv jjiev yap epycov ovSevos Set avrrjv SrjfiLOvpyov
etvai Tcov fi-qre KaKCJV p,T]Te ayadcov, eTnarr'qiJ.rjv
he TTapahiSovai [xr]8ep,Lav dXXrjv ^ avrrjv iavrrjv.

Xeycofiev 8r) ovv, tls ttotc ecrriv avrrj, fj
ri p^pTjcro-
fxeda ; ôvXet (^cD/xer, c5 Kpi'rcDi', t^ dXXovs dyadovs
VOLTjaO/JL€V ;
'
KPi. W.dvv ye.
Sn. Ot Tt eaovTai rjfuv ayadol Kai tL )(prjaip.o(,
^ en Xeycofiev, on dXXovg TTOt-qaovcrLV, ol Se aAAoi

€K€LVOi dXXovs; 6 n 8e ttotc dyadoi elaiv, ovSa/xov
E rj/jiXv (f)aivovrai, eTTeiS-qnep rd epya rd Xeyofieva
elvai, TTJg TToXinKrjs rjnjjLaaafiev , dXX drexi^d)?
TO Xeyofievov o Ato? Koptvô? yiyverai, /cat oirep
eXeyov, rov laov rip.iv ivSel "^ en rrXeovos TTpos
TO elSevac, ns ttot eanv rj €7naTrjp,rj eKeivq, rj
'qp.ds evhaip.ova? TTOiiqaeL;
KPI. Nr) Tov At'a, cS Ti(x)Kpares, els ttoXXt^v ye
aTTopiav, dis eoiKev, d^LKeade.
2n. "Eyojye ovv kol avTos, c5 K/atVcDV, eTretSr)
293 ev ravrrj rfj drropia €ve7Te7Trd)K7] , Trdaav TJSr]
(f)iovr)v ri<f>i€iv, 8e6p,€VOS tolv êvoiv (Zarrep Aioct-

Kovpcov CTTLKaXovpievos adjaai rjp,ds, epue re kol
TO p,eLpdKLOV, €K rrjs rpiKvpiias rov Xoyov, koI
TTavrl rpoTTCp anouSdaai,, Kal aTTOvBdaavrag €7n-
Seiâi, Tt? ttot' earLV r] eTnarrjp,ri, rjs rvôvres
dv KaXd)? rov eTriXoLTTOv îov hieXdoipêv
KPI. Tt ovv; rjdeXrjae n
vplv eTnSeiâL 6
EuûSi^/xo?;
^ Nem. vn.Jin. Megara, a colony of Corinth,

Cf. Pindar,
revolted,and when the Corinthians appealed to the sentiment
attaching to Corinth us, the mythical founder of Megara,
452
;
EUTHYDF.MUS
use can we make of it ? It is not to be a producer
of any of the effects which are neither bad nor good,
while it is to confer no other knowledge but itself.
Shall we try and say what it is, and what use we shall
make of it ? Do you mind if we describe it, Grito, as
that whereby we shall make other men good ?
CRi. I quite agree.
soc. And in what respect are we going to have these
men good, and in what useful ? Or shall we venture
to say they are to make others so, and these again
others ? In what respect they can possibly be good
is nowhere evident to us, since we have discredited
all the business commonly called politics, and it is

merely a case of the proverbial " Corinthus Divine "^
and, as I was saying, we are equally or even worse at
fault as to what that knowledge can be which is to
make us happy.
CRI. Upon my word, Socrates, you got yourselves
there, seems, into a pretty fix.
it
soc. So then I myself, Crito, finding I had fallen

into this perplexity, began to exclaim at the top of
my voice, beseeching the two strangers as though
I were calling upon the Heavenly Twins to save
us, the lad and myself, from the mighty wave^ of the
argument, and to give us the best of their efforts,
and this done, to make plain to us what that know-
ledge can be of which we must get hold if we
are to spend the remainder of our lives in a proper
way
CRI. Well, did Euthydemus consent to proj)ound
anything for you ?
the Megarians drove them off. taunting them with using a

**
vain repetition."
* Lit. " the big wave that comes in every three.'"
453
PLATO
2n. Hats yap ov; /cai rjpâro ye, a) iralpe,
irdw fi€yaXo(f)p6v(x)s rov Xoyov cSSe*
B Ylorepov 8-^ ae, ccfnj, cS TicoKpaTeg, ravrrjv rrjv
€7TLaTT]iJ,7]v, 7T€pl Tjv TTCtAai OLTropelTe, 8i8aâ), rj
eiTLheiôi exovra; *Q. fiaKapie, rjv 8 *€ya>, cart 8e
6771 aoi Tovro; Udvv p,€V ovv, €<f)r]. '^mSeiôv

Toivvv lie VTj Ai*, €(f)'r)v iyo), exovra' ttoXv yap
paov T] fj.avddv€iv rrjXiKovSe dvSpa. Oe'pe S-q
fioi aTTOKpivai, €(j)7}' ear IV 6 ri eiriaraaai ; Wavv

ye, ^v 8' eyo), Kal noXXd, apuKpd ye. ÂpKel,
e(f)r]. dp* ovv SoKels olov re ti rdv ovrcov tovto,
o Tvyxdvet ov, axrro rovro /xtj elvai; 'AAAct fxa
C At" ovK eycoye. Ovkovv ov, e(f)rjs, eTriaraaai
tl; "Eyojye. Ovkovv eTncrT-qficov el, eiTrep e-m-
araaai, Ilai'i' ye, tovtov ye avrov. Ovhev

8ta(f)€pei,' dAA' p'k dvdyKT) ae exî Trdvra eTTiara-
adai eTnanjixovd ye ovra; Ma Ai", €(f)r]v eyw'
eirel TroAAa aAA' ovk eTrt'crra/iai. Ovkovv el tl
pur] emaraaai, ovk e-marrnioiv el. YiKeivov ye,
a) <j>iXe, "^v 8' eyco. ^Httov oSv ti, e^t], ovk
eTn<TTript,cx)v el; dpri he emaT-qfJicov e^-qcrOa etvai*
D Kol ovTU) Tvyxdvets cov avros oiros, os el, Kal
454
EUTHYDEMUS
soc. Why, certainly ; and he began his discourse,
my good friend, in this very lofty-minded fashion :
Would you rather, Socrates, that I instructed you

as to this knowledge which has baffled you all this
while, or propound that you have it ?
O gifted sir, I exclaimed, and have you the power
to do this ?
Certainly I have, he repHed.

Then for Heaven's sake, I cried, propound that I
have it ! This will be much easier than learning
for aman of my age.
Come then, answer me this, he said ; Do you
know anything ?
Yesj indeed, I replied, and many things, though

trifles.
That is enough, he said ; now do you think it
possible that anything that is should not be just that
which it actually is ?
On my soul, not I.
Now you, he said, know something r
Ido.
Then you are knowing, if you really know ?
Certainly, in just that something.
That makes no difference ; you are not under
a necessity of knowing everj'thing, if you are
knowing ?
No, to be sure, I repHed ; for there are many other
things which I do not know.
Then if you do not know something, you are not
knowing ?
Not in that thing, my dear sir. I replied
Are you therefore any the less unknowing ? Just
now you said you were knowing so here you are, ;
actually the very man that you are, and again,
455
,
PLATO
av TTaXiv OVK el, Kara ravTo. afxa. Efei', r^v S'
^yoi, ^vOvhrjixe' to yap Xeyofxevov, KaXa 817
TTavra Ae'yeis" ttcos ovv eVtara/naj €K€Lvr]v ttjv
CTnaT-q/ji-qv, tû et,r]rovix€v; d>s Sr] rovro aSvvaTov

€(7TL TO avTo elvai re /cat fxrj' eiTrep ev eTrt'orajMai,
airavTa eTnaTaâi' ov yap av etayv (.TTiaTrip-oiV
T€ Kai av€7ncn"qixcov a/Lta* irrel Se TrdvTa eTTtWa/iat,

KaK€lVr}V St) TTjV iTTLCTTI^fJ.'qV €X(J0' apa OVTOJS
Aeyeig, Kal tovto €gti to ao(j)6v;
E Ai5t6? aavTov yc 87) iêXeyxî?, î'l' ^ Sca/cpares'.

Tt 8e, :^p' 8' €yc6, (5 Euû87^/xe, ctu oy TTCTTOvdas
TovTo TO avTO Ttddos ; iyo) yap toi /iera aov
OTiovv av Trdaxcov Kal /xera AtovvaoSa)pov Tovoe,
(fylXr^S K€(f)aXrjg, ovK av rravv dyavaKToirfV . etVe //.ot,
crôj ov)(l TO. fxev eTricrraadov twv ovtcdv, to. Se

OVK eTTLOTaaQov ; "WKiaTa. ye, e<^7j, t5 HoiKpaTes
6 AiovvaoBwpos. Ilcos XiyeTov; €(f>r]v iyo)-
dXX* ovSev dpa eTriaraadov; Kai /xoAa, 77

8' oj.
294 ITafT' dpa, €(f)r]v iyu>, eTriuTaadov, iTreiS-qTrep Kai
oTLovv ; riai'T', e(f}rf Kal av ye irpos, eiTrep /cat
ev €7TLaTaaai, ndvTa eTTiOTaaai. *Q Zeu, €(f>riv
lyoi, d)s davjJLacFTOv Ae'yet? /cat dyaôp' /xe'ya
7r€(f)dv9aL. /Ltcot' /cat ot aAAot TrdvTes dvdpojTTOi
TrdvT' iTTLOTavTai, rj ovhev; Ov yap S-qirov, €(f)r],
ra fiev eTriaTavTai, to. 8' ovk eTrlaTavTai, Kai

€imv dfjLa i7naT7]fjLov€s re Kat dveTTioT'qfJLOves.
456
EUTHYDEMUS
not that man, in regard to the same matter and at
the same time !
Admitted, Euthydemus, I said as the saying

:
goes, " well said whate'er you say." How therefore

do I know that knowledge which we were seeking ?
Since forsooth it is impossible for the same thing
to be so and not be so by knowing one thing I
;
know all ; —
for I could not be at once both knowing
and unknowing ;
—
and as I know everything I have
that knowledge to boot is that your line of argu-
:
ment ? your wisdom ?

Is this
Yes, you see, Socrates, he said, your own words
refute you.
Well, but, Euthydemus, I continued, are you
not in the same plight ? I assure you, so long as I
had you and this dear fellow Dionysodorus to share
my lot, however hard, I should have nothing to com-
plain of. Tell me, you both know some existent
things, of course, and others you do not ?
By no means, Socrates, said Dionysodorus.
How do you mean ? I asked do you then not :
know anything ?
Oh yes, we do, he said.
So you know everything, I asked, since you know
anything ?
Everything, he replied yes, and you too, if you
;
know one thing, know all.

Good Heavens, I cried, what a wonderful state-
ment !What a great blessing to boast of And !
the rest of mankind, do they know everything or

nothing ?
Surely, he said, they cannot know some things
and not others, and so be at once knowing and
unknowing.
457
;
PLATO
AAAa Tt; ^v 8' iyco. Hdvres, rj 8' 09, TtdvTa
eTTLOTavTaL, eiTrep /cat ev. ^Q, irpos rcbv deujv,

B '^v 8' iyu), CO Ai,ovv(j68o}p€' S-qXoi yap fjioi iarov
7]8r] oTi aTTovSdêrov , Kal fioXts v[jLdg TrpovKoXe-
aafjLTjv aTTOvSdêiv avrd) roi ovtl Trdvra eTrlara-
adov; olov T€KTOVLKr)V KOL CKVTLK'qv; Hdvv y ,
6^17. *H KoX v€vpoppa(f)€LV Bvvard) iarov; Kal

val fid Ai'a KarrveLV, e^^. *H Kal rd roLavra,
Tovs aarepas, ottoctoi elai, Kal Trjv dfi/xov; Ildvv
ye, -^ 8' OS' etr' ovk dv otei ofjuoXoyrjaaL rjfxds
Kai d KrrjdLTTTTO'S VTToXa^cLv Upog Aid?,
C €0>?, AiovvaoSoipe, reKpLTjpiov ri fxoi rovrotv

iinSeLâTov roiovSe, ^ etaofxai, on dXqdrj Xeyefov.
Ti eViSetfci); ^(f>rj. Otada ^vOvBrjfJiov, ottogovs
oSovras €X€i, Kal 6 Kvdv8r]fj,os onoaovs , cni;
OvK iâpKel aoi, ^4>ri, aKovaai, otl Tidvra
eTTiaTafxeda;
MT^SayLict)?, rj 8' d?, dAAd. rovro €Ti 'qfitv [xovov
etnaTov Kal eTTiheiârov, on dXrjdrj Xeyerov Kal

idv €L7Tr)TOV, oTTocFovs cKaTepos ex^t, vfjidjv, Kai
(f)aiv'qa9e yvovres rjixajv dpidp.'qadvTOJV, rjSrj Tretao-
jjieda vfiLv Kal raAAa.

D 'Yiyovfjcevo) ovv aKcoirreaQai ovk -qdeXeTTjv, dAA'
(!}p,oXoyrjadT7]v irdvra XP'ÎH'^'^^ eTriaraadai, Kad
€V cKaarov ipcoratfievoL vtto K^rrjaLTTTTOU. 6 ydp
4,58
—
EUTHYDEMUS
But what then ? I asked.
All men, he replied, know all things, if they know
one.
In the name
of goodness, Dionysodorus, I said
for now can see both of you are serious ; before,
I
I could hardly prevail on you to be so do you —
yourselves really know everything ? Carpentry, for
instance, and shoe-making ?
Certainly, he said.
And you are good hands at leather-stitching ?
Why yes, in faith, and cobbUng, he said.
And are you good also at such things as counting
the stars, and the sand ?
Certainly, he said can you think we would not
:
admit that also ?

Here Ctesippus broke in Be so good, Diony-
:
sodorus, he said, as to place some such evidence

before me as will convince me that what you say
is true.
What shall I put forward ? he asked.
Do you know how many teeth Euthydemus has,
and does Euthydemus know how many you have ?
Are you not content, he rejoined, to be told that
we know everything ?
No, do not say that, he rephed only tell us this

:
one thing more, and propound to us that you speak

the truth. Then, if you tell us how many teeth each
of you has, and you are found by our counting to
have known it, we shall beheve you thenceforth in
everything else likewise.
Well, as they supposed we were making fun of
them, they would not do it only they agreed that
:
they knew all subjects, when questioned on them,

one after the other, by Ctesippus ; who, before he
459
;;
PLATO
KxTâtTTTTO? vdw diTapaKaXvTTTiOS ovSev o ri
ovK TjpwTa reXevTciJv, /cat rd ata-)(iaTa, el eTnarat-

aOrjv T(h Se avSpetoTara ofxoae tJttjv toIs epcDTTj-
pLaatv, 6pLo\oyovvT€S elhevai, atOTrep ol KaTTpot
ol 77/30? TT^v 7TXr]'yr)v o/jioae (JodovfievoL, cucrr eycoye
Kal avTos, c5 KpLTcov, V7T* aTTJOTia? 'rjva'YKda9r]v
reXevTcov ipeadai [tov KvdvSrjijLov],^ el /cat o/3;êt-
E aât €7Ti(TTaiTo 6 AtovvaoScDpog' 6 Se, Haw,

e<f>'r). Ov StJttov, rjv S' eyo), /cat es fxaxo-tpas
ye Kv^tardv /cat enl rpoxov SiveiadaL ttjXikovtos
cjv, OVTO) TToppoj ao<f)ias TJKets; OvSev, e(f)r], o
Ti ov. Horepov Se, rjv S' eyat, Trdvra vvv /xovov
eirlaTaadov t] /cat del; Kat del, e(f)r]. Kat ot€
TT-aiSia rjaTTjv /cat evdvg yeuofievoL -qTrlaraade
IlavTa, €(f)dTr]v dp,a dpLôTepto.
295 Kat rjfjuv fxev aTnarov eSo/cet to Trpdyfxa eivai,'
6 S' YjvOuhrjfMOS, 'ATrtcrTet?, e<f)r], w Sco/cpare?

TIXt^v y or I, <rjv 8'>^ eyco, etKos vfids icrrl ao(f>ous
elvat. 'AAA' rjv, ecfyrj, edeXiqar)? fiOL aTTOKplveadai,
eyu) eTTtSelôj /cat ae ravra rd OavfiaaTa ofioXo-

yovvra. 'AAAct /at^v, rjv S' eyco, rjSiara ravra
eêXeyxofiai. el yap roi XeXr^da ifxavrov cro(f)6^
(jjv, av he rovro eVtSei'êt? d)S rravra eTTiara/jiat

/cat aet, rl fxelôv ep/xatov avrov av evpoipn iv
rravri rw jSto);
ÂiTOKplvov Srj, e(f>rj. 'Q? drroKpLVOVfievov
* rbv Ev6v8r)fj.ov seel. Hermann.

• ^v S' add. Cornarius.
460
EUTHYDEMUS
had done v^nth them, asked them if they knew
every kind of thing, even the most unseemly, with-
out the least reserve while they most valiantly
;
encountered his questions, agreeing that they had

the knowledge in each case, like boars when driven
up to face the spears so that I for my part, Crito,
:
became quite incredulous, and had to ask in the end

if Dionysodorus knew also how to dance. To which
he replied Certainly.
:
I do not suppose, I said, that you have attained

such a degree of skill as to do sword-dancing, or be
whirled about on a wheel, at your time of life ?
There is nothing, he said, that I cannot do.
Then tell me, I went on, do you know everything
at present only, or for ever ?
For ever too, he said.

And when you were children, and were just bom,
you knew ?
Everything, they both replied together.
Now, to us the thing seemed incredible : then
Euthydemus said You do not believe it, Socrates ?
:
I will only say, I replied, that you must indeed

be clever.
Why, he said, if you will consent to answer me, I
will propound that you too admit these surprising
facts.
Oh, I am I replied, to be refuted
only too glad,
in the matter. For if I am not aware of my o^vn
cleverness, and you are going to show me that I
know everything always, what greater stroke of
luck than this could befall me in all my li\ing
days ?
Then answer me, he said.

Ask I am ready to answer.
:
VOL. IV O 461
,
PI.ATO
B cfjcora. *Ap ovv, ecftrj, c5 Ti(i)KpaT€S, imariqfxoyv
Tov et 7] ov; "Kycoye. Uorepov ovu co eTncrrrnxoiV
et, rovrcp /cat emCTxacrai, »} ctAAoj tco; ^Q.i ctti-
arrjâjv. ot/xai yap ae rr]v tpv^riv Xdyeiv iq ov

TOVTo Xiyeis ; Ovk alaxvvrj, €<f)r], cu Scu/c/oaTes";
ipajTcofxeuos avrepajTas; Etet', rjv S' iyco- dXXa

TTCJS TTOico; ovTio yap TTOL-qaco, ottcds civ av KeXevrjg.
orav [XT] elSio 6 n epcoras, KeXeveis /xe o/jlcds
aTTOKpLveadai, aAAa fjir) eTravepeadai; 'YiroXap.-
C pdvcis yap S-qnov tl, €(f)rj, o Xiyco; "Eycoyc, rjv
S' iyd). Ylpos TOVTO tolvvv diTOKpivov, o imo-

Xafji^dveis . Ti ovv, €(f)r]v, av av pbkv dXXr) ipojTag
8i,avoovjj,evos, iyo) Se dXXrj viroXd^co , eTretra npos

TOVTO aTTOKpivcofxat,, €âpK€L aoL, idv fi-qSev vpos
eTTos" dTroKptvojfiai; "E/zotye, rj S' 6s ' ov fievToi
aoi ye, co? eyoiâi. Ov tolvvv /xct Ata a.7ro-
KptvovfjLai, rjv S' iyio, TrpoTcpov, Trplv dv TTvdcop,ai.
Ovk aTTOKpivfj, €<f)r], irpos a dv del VTToXapi^dvris
D oTi ej^wi' <j)XvapeZs Kal dpô-ioTepos el tov SeovTos.
Kdyo) cyvcov avTov on fioi jjâAeiratVoi 8ia-
oreAAovTi ra Xeyopêva, ôvX6fj,€v6s /xe drjpevaai
Ta ovofiaTa TTeptcrr-qaag. dvefivqadrjv ovv tov

K.6vvov, OTL fioc KdK€Lvos ;âAe7ratVei eKaoTOTe,
oTav avTip fMTj VTretKOJ, CTretra jxov rJTTOV eVt-

462
EUTHYDEMUS
Well then, Socrates, he asked, have you know-
ledge of something, or not ?
I have.
And tell me, do you know with that whereby you
have knowledge, or with something else ?
With that whereby I have knowledge I think :
you mean the soul, or is not that your meaning ?

Are you not ashamed, Socrates, he said, to ask a
question on your side when you are being questioned ?
Very well, I said but how am I to proceed ? I
:
will do just as you bid me. When I cannot tell

what you are asking, is it your order that I answer
all the same, without asking a question upon it ?
Why, he replied, you surely conceive some meaning
in what I say ?
I do, I replied.
Answer then to the meaning you conceive to be
in my words.
if you ask a question with a different
Well, I said,
meaning in your mind from that which I conceive,
and I answer to the latter, are you content I should
answer nothing to the point ?
For my part, he replied, I shall be content : you,
however, will not, so far as I can see.
Then I declare I shall not answer, I said, before
I get it right.
You refuse to answer, he said, to the meaning you
conceive in each case, because you will go on (Level-
ling, you hopeless old dotard !
Here I perceived he was annoyed with me for

distinguishing between the phrases used, when he
wanted to entrap me in his verbal snares. So I
remembered Connus, how he too is annoyed with
me whenever I do not give in to him, with the
46s
PLATO
fieXeLTat, cos dfjiadovs ovtos' CTret 8e ovv Bievcvo'qurjv
/cat TTapa rovrov ôirdv, (Lijdrjv Selv vireiKeiv,
fi7] fi€ OKaiov rjyrjcrdjjLevos <f>OLT'r]Triv fxrj Trpoa-
SexoiTO. CLTTOV ovv 'AAA' et SoKet aoi, Ei3^ySTj/xe,

E ovroj TTOielv, TTOL-qreov orif yap ttolvtcos ttov koX-
Aiov eTTLGTaaai, SiaXeyeaOai ^ iyco, re^vr^v ej^cov
iBiiOTOV dvdpcoTTOV ipcoTa ovv tto-Xlv i^ dp)(rjs.
Attokplvov Si], ^<f>rj, irdXiv, TTorepov eTriaraaai
TO) d eTTtaracrai, rj ov; "Eycoye, €(f>7]v, rfj ye i/fvxfj-
296 Ovtos av, e^^y, TTpoaaTroKptveTat, tols ipojTco-
fievoiS' ov yap eycoye epcorco otco, oAA' et
cmoraCTat ro). IlXeov av, €(f>T]v iyco, rov Sfe'ovro?
dTTeKpLvdjj.'qv vtto dTraiSevcrlas' oAAa avy-

yiyvcooKe fxor diroKpLVOvixai yap -qSr) aTrXcos on
eTTiara/xat to) d eTrtarayuat. Uorepov, ^ S' 6s,
Tcp avTcp Tovrcp y del, t^ ecrri fxev ore tovto), earn
Se ore irepci); 'Aet, orav eTTLorcofjLai, ^v 8' eyoJ,
Tovrcp. OvK av, €(f>-q,

Travaei irapaÔeyyopLevos;
B 'AAA' OTTOJS p-ri Ti i^/xa? crâAei ro del rovro.
OvKOVV rip,as ye, e(f)rj, aAA' etirep, ere. dAA

dTTOKpivov ^ del rovrco evLcrraaai, ; 'Aet, -qv 8
iyco, eTTetBrj Set d<f)eXeZv to orav. Ovkovv aet
jjLev TOVTO) eTriaraaai' del 8' eTruTTdfievos norepov
464
EUTHYDEMUS
result that he now takes less trouble over me as
being a stupid person. So being minded to take
lessons from this new teacher, I decided that I
had better give in, lest he should take me for a
blockhead and not admit me to his classes. So I
said Well, if you think fit, Euthydemus, to proceed
:
thus, we must do so ; in any case I suppose you

understand debating better than I do you are
versed in the method, and I am but a layman.
—
Begin your questions, then, over again.
Now, answer me once more, he said : do you
know what you know by means of something, or
not?
I do, I rephed; by means of my soul.
There he is again, he said, answering more than
he is asked. For I am not asking what the means
is, but only whether you know by some means.
Yes, I did again answer more than I ought, I said,

through lack of education. But forgive me, and I
will now simply reply that I know what I know
by some means.
By one and the same means always, he asked, or
sometimes by one and sometimes by another .''
Always, whenever I know, I replied, it is by this

means.
There again, he cried, you really must stop adding
these qualifications.
But I am so afraid this word " always " may
bring us to grief.
Not us, he rejoined, but, if anyone, you. Now
answer do you know by this means always ?
:
Always, I replied, since I must withdraw the

" whenever."
Then you always know by this means that being
:
465
PLATO
ra fxev tovtco eTTioracrai at eTTLoraaai, to. 8' aXXco,
T] TOVTCO TTovTa; TovTM, €<f>r]v iyo), OLTTavra, a y

eTTiCTTa/xat . Tout' eKeivo, €(f)7]'
'qKci to avTO
7Tapd(f>d€yfjia. 'AAA' aâtpcD, €(f)r]v iycx), to d y
e77t<TTa//,ai. 'AAAd /XTySe €V, €(f)r], d(f>€X'r]g' ov-
C Se** yap GOV hiojxai.. oAAa fxoi diroKpivaf Svvaio

av arravTa e-niaTaaOai, el fxr] irdvTa emaraLo;
Tepa? yap dv eXrj, -^v 8' iyo). Kai os etTre*
YlpoaTiOci Toivvv rjSrj o ti /Soi'Aef diravTa

yap ofioXoyels iTrioTaadai. "Eot/ca, e<j)r]v lyoi,
iTTeiS-qnep ye ovhep,iav e^êi hvvap.iv to a

eTTtCTTa/xai, iravTa he erriaTapiaL. Ovkovv /cat aet
wfioXoyqKas eTTLOTaadat tovtco, (L emaTacraL,

evre oTav eTrlaTrj etre ottcds jSouAef aet yap
(hp,oX6yrjKas eTriaraaOai kol dp,a TrdvTa hrjXov
D ovv, OTi Kal Trals cov TjTTLcrTa), Kai ot eyiyvov,
/cat ot' €(f>vov' Kal irplv aino? yeveadai, /cat
TTplv ovpavov Kal yrjv yeveadai, t^tticttcu dnavTa,

eLTTep del eiriaTaaai. kol val /xd Ai'a, e<^77,
avTOS del eTriaTrjaei Kal aTravTa, dv eydi /SouAa>//.at.
'AAAd ôvXrjdeirjs , "qv 8' eyco, c5 7ToXvTip,r}T€
^v6vhr)p,e, €1 817 TO) ovTi dXrjOrj Aeyet?. dAA*

ov aoL TTOvv TTiarevco iKavco elvai,, ei p^rj aoi crvp,-
ôvX-f]deirj 6 dheX<f>6s crov ovToal Aiovvaohcopos'

ovTco Tdxa dv. eirreTov he p,oi, "^v 8' eya>'
466
EUTHYDExMUS
the case, do you know some things by this means
of knowing, and some things by another means, or
everything by this ?
Everything by this, I replied ; everj'thing, that
is, that I know.
There it comes ^
again, he cried ; the same
quahfication !
Well, I ^Wthdraw my " that is, that I know."

No, do not withdraw a single word, he said I :
ask you for no concession. Only answer me could :
you know all things if you did not know everything ?

It would be most surprising, I said.
Then he went on You may therefore add on
:
now whatever you please for you admit that you :
know all things.

It seems I do, I replied, seeing that my " that I
know " has no force, and I know
everything.
Now you have also know
admitted that you
always by the means whereby you know, whenever
—
you know or however you like to put it. For you
have admitted that you always know and, at the
same time, everything. Hence it is clear that even
as a child you knew, both when you were being bom
and when you were being conceived and before :
you yoiuêlf came into being or heaven and earth

existed, you knew all things, since you always know.
Yes, and I declare, he said, you yourself will always
know all things, if it be my pleasure.
Oh, pray let it be your pleasure, I replied, most
worshipful Euthydemus, if what you say is really
true. Only I do not quite trust in your efficacy,
if your pleasure is not to be also that of your brother
here, Dionysodorus if it is, you will probably
:
prevail. And tell me, I wênt on, since I cannot

467
PLATO
E Ta fxev yap ctAAa ovk exoj Vfxiu ttcjs d/x0ia/8ryToirjv,
omcos ei? ao(f)Lav reparcoSeaLV avdpojTTOis, ottojs
ov TTOLVTa eVt'crra/Liai, eVetSi] vfiels (jiarl- to. Se
TotaSe TTcD? <f>io eTTiWacrât, Eu0y87j/xe, 0)S ol
ayadol dvSpes ahiKoi elai; <f>€pe elne, tovto
€7TLGTafiai iq ovk eTTiarafxai, ; 'ETT-t'crracrai p,4vToi,
etprj. Tt; "qv S' iyo). "On ovk aSi/cot elaiv
Ol dyadot. Ilaru ye, qv S' iyu>, TraAai* aAA'
297 oi^ TOVTO epcoTcb' aAA' co? dhiKoi elaiv ol dyadoi,
TTov iyd) TOVTO efiadov; OvSafiov, €<f>r) 6 Aiovvao-
Scopos. Ovk dpa iTTLaTa/xai,, €(j)rjv, tovto iyo).
Ata^êtpeis", ^(f>'q,
tov Xoyov, 6 ^vdv8r]fMos rrpos
Tov t^Lovvaohcopov y Kol (ftavqaeTai ovToal ovk
eTncTTOifMevog, /cat €7T(,crTrjfxcou dfxa cov /cat dv-
emaT-qfiajv. /cat o AiovvaoScopog 'qpvdpiaaev.
'AAAa cru, "^v 8' iyo), ttcos Aeyet?, c5 EuûSr^/Ae;
B ov So/cet crot opOcljg dSeAtô? Aeyetv o ndvTa elScos;
'ASeAô? ycip, ^"^^j ^y<^ ^^/^' Ei3ûS7^/x.ou, Ta;^y
VTToXaôjv 6 AiovvaoSojpos ; /cdyco elvov, "Eacrov,
c5 *yad€, eco? av EuûSTy^Ltos' />te SiSd^r], co? €7rt-
GTafxai Toiis dyadovs dvSpag otl dhiKoi elai, /cat
/X17 /X.01 (f>dovqcrrjs tov fiad-qfiaTos . Oevyeis, €(f)r],
c5 TicoKpaTes, 6 AiovvaoScopos , /cat ou/c ideXetg

d-noKpiveaOai. Et/corco? y', eiTTOU iyco' rJTTOJv ydp
C et/iAi /cat ToiJ cTepov vfxd)v, cScrre ttoAAoiJ Secu /X17
ou 8uo ye (f)evyeiv. ttoXv ydp ttov el/xi (f)avX6-

Tepos TOV 'H/aa/cAeou?, o? ovx olos re •jî' tjj tc
y8pa Siafidxôdai, aocfyicrTpia ovcrr] /cat 8td tt^v
468^
2
EUTHYDEMUS
hope in a general way to dispute the statement that
I know everything with persons so prodigiously
—
clever since it is your statement how am I to say —
I know certain things, Euthydemus for instance, ;
that good men are unjust ? Come, tell me, do I

know this or not ?
You know it certainly, he said.
What ? I said.
That the good are not unjust.
Quite so, I said : I knew thatall the time but
;
that is not what I ask : tell me, where did I learn

that the good are unjust ?
Nowhere, said Dionysodorus.

Then I do not know this, I said.
You are spoiling the argument, said Euthydemus
to Dionysodorus, and we shall find that this fellow
does not know, and is at once both knowing and un-
knowing.
At this Dionysodorus reddened. But you, I said,
what do you mean, Euthydemus. Do you find that
your brother, who knows everything, has not spoken
aright ?
I a brother of Euthydemus ? quickly interposed
Dionysodorus.
Whereupon I said Let me alone, good sir, till
:
Euthydemus has taught me that I know that good

men are unjust, and do not grudge me this lesson.
You are running away, Socrates, said Dionyso-
dorus ; you refuse to answer.
Yes, and with good reason, 1 said for I am :
weaker than either one of you, so I have no scruple

about running away from the two together. You
see, I am sadly inferior to Hercules, who was no
—
match for the hydra that she-professor who was
VOL. IV « 469
PLATO
ao(f)iav dvtelar], ei filav K€(f)aXrjv rod Xoyov rts"
OLTToreixoi, ttoAAo,? olvtI rrjs jMta?, /cat KapKivo)

Ttvl erepcp aocjaarfj, e/c daXdrTrjs dîyixivco, vecoari,,
fJLOL hoKeZv, KaraTTeTrXevKOTL' os eTretSi^ avrov
cXvTrei ovTcos e/c tov en dpLarepd Xeycov Kal
SaKvcov, TOV 'loXeoiv rov dSeAîSow ô-qdov
D eneKaXeaaro, 6 8e avro) iKava>s iô-qOrjcrev. 6
8 ijjios 'loXecos [YlarpoKXrjsY ^^ eXdot, ttXcov dv
ddrepov TTOL-qareiev.
ÂTTOKpivat Sij, €<f)r) 6 AiovvcroSojpos, ottotc
aoi Tavra vpLvrfrai' TTorepov 6 'loAeoj? tov *Hpa-
kXcovs /xoAAoi' "qv dSeA^tSouj iq aos ; KpdriaTov
roivvv fxOL, (L AiovvaoScope, rjv S' iyco, dnoKpLva-
adai aoL. ov yap p,rj dvfjs ipcorcov, a;êSov' tl
iyd) TOVT e6 otSa, (f>dovu)v Kal SiaKaiXvcov, tva
fj,r] BiSd^T) p,€ EivdvBr)ijios eKelvo to ao(l>6v. 'Atto-
Kpivov hr^, €<f>rj. 'ATroKpLVOfxai 87^, einov, otl
TOV 'YipaKXeovs rjv 6 'IdAeo*? dheXîhovs, ifxos
E 8', CO? ifiol BoK€L, ovS' oTTCoaTiovv. OV ydp
IlaTpo/cA^S"
dXXd
"qv
TTapaTrX-qcrtov p,kv
avTW TraT-qp,
rowo/xa
6 'Hpa-
6 ifios
*I(f>LKXrjs,
dSeXcfyos,
I
kXcovs d8eA<ô?. IlaTpoKX-qs 84, rj 8' os, aos;
Udvv y\ €(f>rjv lyoi, op.op.-qTpios ye, ov p.ivToi
ofxoTrdTpios. ÂheX<f)6s dpa ioTL aoi Kal ovk
dheXcjios. Oi5x ofiorrdTpLos ye, S /SeArtCTre, e(f)7]V'
eKeivov p,ev ydp âLpeSrj/jLos rjv TraTTJp, efios Se
YiOJ^povioKOS. YiaTTip he rjv, ecftrj, YiCo^poviaKos
Kal âLpeSrjfxos ; Udvv y' , €<f)r]V' 6 p,ev ye efj,6s,
298 o 8e eKeivov. Ovkovv, q 8' os, eTepos ^v Xat/ae-
^ IlarpoKX^s seel. Heindorf.
^ i.e. any kinsman or helper I might summon would only
add to the number of your victims.
470
—
EUTHYDEMUS
so clever that she sent forth many heads of de-
bate in place of each one that was cut off ; nor
for another sort of crab-professor from the sea
freshly, I fancy, arrived on shore ; and, when the
hero was so bothered \vith its leftward barks
and bites, he summoned his nephew lolaus to the
rescue, and he brought him eifective relief. But if
my lolaus were to come, he would do more harm
than good.^
Well, answer this, said Dionysodorus, now you
have done your descanting : Was lolaus more
Hercules' nephew than yours ?
I see I had best answer you, Dionysodorus, I
said. For you ^vill never cease putting questions
I think I may say I am sure of this — in a grudging,
obstructing spirit, so that Euthydemus may not
teach me that bit of cleverness.
Then answer, he said.
Well, I answer, I said, that lolaus was Hercules*
nephew, but not mine, so far as I can see, in any
way whatever. For Patrocles, my brother, was not
his father ; only Hercules' brother Iphicles had a
name somewhat similar to his.
And Patrocles, he said, is your brother ?
Certainly, I said : that is, by the same mother,
but not by the same father.
Then he is your brother and not your brother.
Not by the same father, worthy sir, I repHed. His
father was Chaeredemus, mine Sophroniscus.
So Sophroniscus and Chaeredemus, he said, were
" father " ?
Certainly, I said the former mine, the latter his.
:
Then surely, he went on, Chaeredemus was other

than " father " ?
471
PLATO
Srjfiog rod narpos; Tovfxov y', €(f)rjv lyoi. *Ap'
ovv TTaTrjp "qv erepos u)V narpos; rj av el 6 avros
Tip Xidcp; Ae'Sot/ca p,kv eycoy* , e<j>r)v, p.rj (âvcb
VTTO aov o avTos' ov pêvroL poi So/co). Ovkovv

erepos el, c^r], rov Xidov; "Ere/oo? p,€VTOi. "AAAo
Ti ovu eTcpog, rj o os, cov Aloov ov AlUos et; Kai
erepos wv y^pvaov ov y^pvcros el; "Ecrri ravra.
Ovkovv /cat o Xat/aeSr^/xo?, e<^>7, erepos cov irarpos
B ovK av TTarrjp eirj. "Kolkgv, rjv 8' iyu), ov TTarrjp
eiP'at. Et yap S-^ttov, €(f)-q,
TraTrjp iariv 6 Xat-
pe8rjp,os, VTToXa^cov 6 l^vdvSrjpog, TrdXiv av 6
lL(x>(j)povi(JKos €T€pos cov TTarpos ov rrar-qp iariv,
oiore av, u) TicoKpares , aTrdroip et.
Kat o KT-qaLTTTTOs CKSe^dp-evos, *0 8e vpêrepos,

€<f)r), av TTaTrjp ov ravra ravra rreTTOvdev ; erepos
iari rovp-ov Trarpos; YioXXov y , e(j)rj, Set, o
l^vdvSrjpLOS. 'AAAa, 1^ S' OS, 6 avros; *0 avros
pevroi. OvK av avpôvXoi.p,r)v. dXXa TTorepov,
C cS KvdvSrjpLC, €p,6s piovos iarl TTarrjp ^ /cat rcbv
dXXcov dvdpcoTTCov; Kat rcov dXXcov, e<f>rj' rj otei
rov avrov Trarepa ovra ov Trarepa etvai; "Q.ipLrjv
Srjra, e<f)rj 6 l^rrjannTOS . Tt he; rj 8' oj" ;^pi'CTov
ovra p.rj xpvaov elvai; rj dvOpcorrov ovra prj
dvdpcoTTOv; Mrj ydp, e(f>rj 6 K^rijatTTTros, c5 Evdv-
*
Cf. Oorgias, 494 a, where " the life of a stone
" is given
as a proverbial example of a life without pleasure or pain.
472
EUTHYDEMUS
Than mine, at any rate, I said.
Why then, he was father while being other than
father. Or are you the same as " the stone " ? ^
I fear you may prove that of me, I said, though
I do not feel like it.
Then are you other than the stone ?
Other, I must say.
Then of course, he went on, if you are other than
stone, you are not stone ? And if you are other
than gold, you are not gold ?
Quite so.
Hence Chaeredemus, he said, being other than
father, cannot be " father."
It seems, I said, that he is not a father.
No, for I presume, interposed Euthydemus, that
if Chaeredemus is a father Sophroniscus in his turn,
being other than a father, is not a father so that ;
you, Socrates, are fatherless.

Here Ctesippus took it up, observing And your :
father too, is he not in just the same phght ? Is

he other than my father ?
Not in the slightest, said Euthydemus.
What, asked the other, is he the same ?
The same, to be sure.
I should not like to think he was but tell me,
:
Euthydemus, is he my father only, or everybody

else's too ?
Everybody else's too, he rephed or do you ;
suppose that the same man, being a father, can be

no father ?
I did suppose so, said Ctesippus.
Well, said the other, and that a thing being gold
could be not gold ? Or being a man, not man }
Perhaps, Euthydemus, said Ctesippus, you are
473
PLATO
Srjfie, TO Xeyofievov, ov Xivov Xivco avvaiTTeis'-
heivov yap Xeyeis TTpdyfj-a, el 6 aos Trarrjp iravriov
iari TTarrjp. 'AAA' ecrrtv, e<^77. Yiorepov av-
dpii)TT(i)v; ^ 8' o? o YirrjaiTTTTOS, rj Kol tmroiv;
D ri /cat rcjv dXXcov ttolvtcov t,aia)v; YidvTwv, €(f)rj.
^H /cat jJi-^Trjp 7) fiTjrrjp; Kat rj fi-qTrjp ye. Kat

Tcov ext-vcov dpa, e^T], r) crrj f^'qTrjp fiTjTrjp earl rcbv
OaXaTTtcov. Kat rj arj y* , e<j)rj. Kat ai) dpa
dheX<j>6s et Ttov kcoîcov koI Kvvapiayv /cat X^^P^'
Sicov. Kat yap av, €(f>rj. Kairpos^ dpa aoc
TTaTTjp eari /cat kvcov. Kat yap aoi, €<f)r).
AvTtKa 8e ye, rj S* os 6 AiovuaoSojpos, av fioi
aTTOKpivrj, c3 KrTjaLTnre, o/jLoXoyTjaets ravra. elire
yap fioL, eoTL aoi kvojv ; Kat fjudXa rrovrjpos, e^r)
Yj o KxT^crtTrTTOS". "EcTTti' ovv avTcp Kvvihia; Kat

pLoX , e(f)rj, erepa roiavra. Ovkovv nar-qp eariv
avTwv 6 kvcov; "Kyioye tol etSov, €(f>rj, avrov
oê'vovTa ttjv Kvva. Tt ovv; ov ao? iartv 6-
KViov; riai'u y', ^'i^'']-

Ovkovv rrarrjp cov cro?
earw, ware aos Trarrjp yiyverai 6 kvcov /cat av

Kvvapicov aSeA^d?;
Kat avdis ra)(V vnoXa^cbv a Aiovvaohcopos,
tva firj rrpoTepov ri etTroi d Kr-qacTTTTOs , Kai ert
ye jiOL pLiKpov, e^rj, drTOKpivaL' rvrrreis rov Kvva

^ Kawpos Badham : koX irpos mss.
^ i.e. treating two different things as the same.

474
EUTHYDEMUS
knotting flax with cotton,* as they say for it is a :
strange result that you state, if your fatlier is father

of aU.
He is, though, was the reply.
Of all men, do you mean ? asked Ctesippus, or of
horses too, and all other animals ?
Of all, he said.
And is your mother a mother in the same way ?
My mother too.
Andis your mother a mother of sea-urchins ?
Yes, and yours is also, he replied.
So then you are a brother of the gudgeons and
whelps and porkers.
Yes, and so are you, he said.
Then your father is a boar and a dog.
And so is yours, he said.
Yes, said Dionysodorus, and it will take you but
a moment, if you «illanswer me, Ctesippus, to
acknowledge all this. Just tell me, have you a dog ?
Yes, a real rogue, said Ctesippus.
Has he got puppies ?
Yes, a set of rogues Uke him.
Then is the dog their father ?
Yes, indeed I saw him with my own eyes covering
;
the bitch.
Well now, is not the dog yours ?
Certainly, he said.
Thus he is a father, and yours, and accordingly
the dog turns out to be your father, and you a
brother of whelps.
Hereupon Dionysodorus struck in again quicklv,
lest Ctesippus should get a word in before him :
Answer me just one more Uttle point do you beat :
this dog ?
475
PLATO
rovrov; /cat o Kri^crtTrTros' •yeActcras', N17 rov?
ueovs, €(f>rj' ov yap Swafxai ere. Ovkovv tov
299 oavTov irarepa, e(f>rj, rvTrreis. HoXv fievToc, e(f)7j,
oLKatorepov tov vfiercpov irarepa tvtttolixi, 6 tl

ixadwv aoôi)? vUis ovtojs €(f)vaev. dAA' 17 ttov,
u) ^v9vSr)iJL€, €(l>rj 6 KTrâtTT-TT-o?, TToAA' dyada dno

rrjs VfJieTepas ao<f)ias ravrrjs dnoXeXavKev 6 nar-qp
o vfierepog re /cat o rcov kvviSlojv. 'AAA' ovSev
oetrai ttoXXcov dyadcov, c5 KxryaiTTTre, ovt^ eKeZvos
ovT€ (TV. OvSe av, ^ S' o?, c5 ^vdv8rjp,€, avros;
Oi58e aAAoj ye ovSels dvOpcoTTOJV . eiTre yap fxot,
B CO Kn^CTiTTTre, el dyadov vofiiêis etvai daOevovvri

(f)dpjxaKov TTielv ^ ovk dyadov etvat So/cet aoi,
orav Serjrai,' t) els TroXepiov orav tr], oTrXa eôvTa
fiaXXov levat iq dvorrXov. "KfjLoiye, e(f)rj. KaCroi
olfiai ri ae rdv KaXcov epeZv. Su dpiara eicrei,
e<f)7]' dAA' dTTOKpivov. eTreiSrj yap chixoXoyeis

dyadov elvai (f)dpixaKov , orav Sei^, iriveLV dvdpcjiTCp,
dXXo TL TOVTo TO dyadov cos nXeZarov Set TLveiv,

/cat KaXcos eKeZ eêi, edv tcs avTcp Tpupas eyKepdcxr)
eXXeôpov dfxaâv; /cat o K.T'qaiTnros elne, Ildvu
C ye cr(f>68pa, cL ^vdvhrjfxe, edv fj
ye 6 ttlvcov oaos
6 dvhpids ev AeXcf)oZs. Ovkovv, e(f>r], /cat ev
Tw TToXeficp CTTeiS-q dyadov iaTLV OTrXa eêtv, cos
TrAeiCTTa Set exîv 86 para re /cat daTTi8as, e7Tei8'qiT€p

dyadov eoTLv; MdAa StJttou, e(f)r] 6 KT-qannTos'
476
—;
EUTHYDEMUS
Ctesippus laughed and said : My word, yes
since I cannot beat you !
So you beat your own father ? he said.

There would be much more justice, though, he
replied, inmy beating yours, for being so ill-advised
as beget clever sons like you. Yet I doubt,
to
Ctesippus went on, if your father, Euthydemus
—
the puppies' father has derived much good from
this wisdom of yours.
Why, he has no need of much good, Ctesippus,
neither he nor you.
And have you no need either, yourself, Euthy-
demus ? he asked.
No, nor has any other man. Just tell me,
Ctesippus, whether you think it good for a sick
man to drink physic when he wants it, or whether
you consider it not good or for a man to go to the
;
wars with arms rather than without them.

With them, I think, he replied and yet I believe:
you are about to utter one of your pleasantries.

You will gather that well enough, he said only :
answer me. Since you admit that physic is good

for a man to drink when necessary, surely one ought
to drink this good thing as much as possible and ;
in such a case it will be well to pound and infuse in it

a cart-load of hellebore ?
To this Ctesippus replied Quite so, to be sure,
:
Euthydemus, at any rate if the drinker is as big as

the Delphian statue.
Then, further, since in war, he proceeded, it is
good to have arms, one ought to have as many
spears and shields as possible, if we agree that it is a
good thing ?
Yes, I suppose, said Ctesippus and you, Euthy-
;
477
PLATO
av o ouK o'Ut, w KvOvSr^/xe, dXXa fiiav Kal ev
oopv; "Eycoye. *H koi rov Tiqpvovrjv dv, e^t),
/cat Tov IBpidpecov ovro) 8e ai) oTrXiaais ; eyd)
w/xr^vae Setvorepov elvai, are oirXoixdx'QV ovra, koI
Tovo€ TOV iraipov,
Kai o jjiev EvOvSrjfjios eaiyrjaev 6 he Aiovvao-
D Swpos TTpos rd Trporepop dTTOKeKpijxeva ra> Yirrja-
LTTTTO) 7]peTo, OvKovv Kal xR^^^ôv, Tj S' OS, dyaOov
So/cei (Toi elvai ex^tv; Udvv, Kal ravrd ye ttoXv,

€<f)r) 6 KrriGi7T7Tos Tt ovu; dyadd ov SoKel
.
aoi XPW^''^ ^^^ '^'

^X^*^ '^^'' 'n'avraxov; ll(f)68pa
y , €(f)7].
OvKovv Kai to ;fpyaioi' dyaOov ofioXo-
yeis eivai; 'Q.pboXoyqKa [xev ovu, "^ 8 os. Ovkovv
del. Set avTo exeiv Kal -navTaxov Kal to? fxaXiaTa ev
E eavTcp; Kal evr] dv euSai/xoveWaro?, el exoi
Xpvaiov Tpia TdXavTa ev Tjj yacTTpi, TdXavTov
fjiev
8 ev Tcp Kpavicp, aTaTrjpa 8e ;;^/>ucroi5 ev eKaTepcp

T(h(f}daXpi(i) ;âai ye ovv, w ^vdvSrjfie, ecfir) 6
K-T-qoLTTTTOs ,TOVTOvs evhat/JioveardTOVS etvai TiKV-
dd)v Kal dpioTovs dvSpas, oi ;^puCTtov re ev toXs
KpavLOLS exovoL ttoXv tols eavToiv, oiairep av
vvv Srj eXeyes tov Kvva tov iraTepa, Kal o dav-
piaai(x)Tep6v ye €tl, otl koi ttlvovctlv €K tcov eavTtbv
Kpavicov Kexpvaoipievoiv , Kal raura evTos KadopdJai,
TTjV eavTcbv KopvcjjrjV ev rat? ;!ê/3(Ttv exovTeS'
300 lloTepov Se opcoaLV, e(f)r] 6 KvdvSrjixos, Kal IjKvdat
T€ Kal ol (xAAoi dv9p(x)7roi ra BvvaTa opdv rf Ta
* Xpfivai Badham : xPWttra mss.
* Two
fabulous giants (Geryon had three, Briareus fifty,
pairs of arms).
478
EUTHYDEMUS
demus, do you take the other view, that it should be
one shield and one spear ?
Yes, I do.
What, he said, and would you arm Geryon also
and Briareus ^ in this way ? I thought you more of an
expert than that, considering you are a man-at-arms,
and your comrade here too !
At this Euthydemus was silent then Dionyso-

;
dorus asked some questions on Ctesippus' pre\ious

answers, saying Well now, gold is in your opinion
:
a good thing to have ?

— —
Certainly, and here I agree plenty of it too,
said Ctesippus.
Well then, do you not think it right to have good
things always and everywhere ?
Assuredly, he said.
Then do you admit that gold is also a good ?
Why, I have admitted it, he repHed.
Then we ought always it, and everywhere,
to have
and above all, in oneself ? And one will be happiest
if one has three talents of gold in one's belly, a
talent in one's skull, and a stater of gold in each
eye ?
Well, Euthydemus, replied Ctesippus, they say
that among the Scythians those are the happiest
and best men who have a lot of gold in their own
skulls —
somewhat as you were saying a moment ago
that " dog " is " father " and a still more marvellous
;
thing is told, how they drink out of their skulls

when gilded, and gaze inside them, holding their
own headpiece in their hands.
Tell me, said Euthydemus, do the Scythians and
men in general see things possible of sight, or things
impossible ?
479
,
PLATO
aovvara; To, Svvara SrjTTOv. Ovkovp /cat av,
€(f)r); Kdyu).'Opas ovv ra rjixerepa i/xaria;
âi. Avvara ovv opav eVrt ravra. 'Yirep-
^V(x}S, €(f>r] 6 Kr-qcTLTTTTOs Tt Se; -q 8' o?, Mrjhev.
.
av 8 tacog ovk otei avra opav ovrios rjSvg el.

aAAa fjbOL So/eels', ^vdvSrjfxe, ov KadevSoju irrLKC-
KOLfi-qadaL, Kal el olov re Xeyovra fxr^Sev Xeyeiv,
B Kal av TOVTO TTOieZv.
H yap OVK olov re, e^r; o AlOP'UCToSajpo?, ai-

ycovra Xeyeiv ; Oj38' OTTOJCTTtow, 17
8' o? f) Ktt^ct-
iTTTTOs. *Ap' ou8e Ae'yovra aiyav; "Ert tJttov,
€(^77. "Orav ow XlOovs Xey-pg Kal ^vXa Kal
aihrjpia, ov aiycbvra Xeyeis ; Ovkovv, et ye eyo),
e(f)rj, TTapepxofiai ev rols ;âA/cetoi?, dAAa (f)deyy6-

fxeva Kal ôcovra pLeyiarov ra aiS-qpca Xeyerai, edv
rts diftrjrai- ware rovro piev vtto ao<f)ias eXades
ovhev eLTTwv. dXX en fioi ro erepov emheiârov
C OTTOJS av ean Xeyovra aiyav. Kal fiot, e8d/cet
VTTepaycovLav 6 Kryâtmrog Sid ra TTaiSiKa. "Orav
aiyag, e(f>-q 6 ^vdv8rjp,og, ov irdvra acyas; "Eycoye,
^8' 09. Ovkovv /cat ra Xeyovra aiyag, ecTrep rcbv
diravrcov earl ra Xeyovra} Tt 8e; e^rj 6 Krrâ-
177770S", ov aiya Trdvra; Ov St^ttou, e^T] 6 Euû-
^ TO. XeyofTa Stephanas : to. XeyofjLeva mss.
* The quibble is on the double meaning of dwaTo. opav

— (a)" possible," and (6) " able to see." So in what follows,
ai-yOivTa Xeyetv may mean both "the speaking of a silent
person," or "speaking of silent things."
480
EUTHYDEMUS
Possible, I presume.
And you do so too ?
I too.
Then you see our cloaks ?
Yes.
And have they power of sight ? ^
Quite extraordinarily, said Ctesippus.
What do they see ? he asked.
Nothing. Perhaps you do not think they see
— you are such a sweet innocent. I should say,
Euthydemus, that you have fallen asleep with your
eyes open and, if it be possible to speak and at the
same time say nothing, that this is what you are doing.
Why, asked Dionysodorus, may there not be a
speaking of the silent ?
By no means whatever, replied Ctesippus.
Nor a silence of speaking ?
Still less, he said.
Now, when you speak of stones and timbers and
irons, are you not speaking of the silent ?
Not if I walk by a smithy, for there, as they say,
the irons speak and cry aloud, when they are touched ;
so here your >visdom has seduced you into nonsense.
But come, you have still to propound me your second
point, how on the other hand there may be a silence
of speaking. (It struck me that Ctesippus was speci-
ally excited on account of his young friend's presence.)
When you are silent, said Euthydemus, are you
not making a silence of all things ?
Yes, he replied.
Then a silence of speaking things also, if the
it is
speaking are among all things.
What, said Ctesippus, are not all things silent ?
I presume not, said Euthydemus.
481
PLATO
Srifios. 'AAA' apa, c5 jSeArtoTe, Aeyei to, Trdvra;
Ta ye St^ttou Xeyovra. 'AAAa, ^ 8' 09, ou touto

c poor CO, dXXa rd Travra aiya "q Xeyet; OvSerepa
D Kal dix(j)6Tepa, €(f)rj v(f>ap7Tdaas 6 ALovvaroStopog'
€v yap otSa on rfj diroKpLaeL ov)( eêi? o Ti XP??*
Kal 6 KTTjCTtTTTros", coCTTTe/j elcodei, /jieya ndvv dva-

Kayxdaas, ^Cl EuûSi^/xe, e'/'^> ° aSeAôs" crou
i^rjfKôTepLKC rov Xoyov, Kal aTToAoiAe re /cat
rJTTTjTai. Kal 6 KAetvta? Traiû t^ctî^ «cat iyeXaaev,
ware 6 KrT^crtTTTros' iyevero TrXelov ^ Se/caTrAacrio?'

d 8' olfxat,,^ Travovpyos o^v, 6 Y^Tr\annTO^ , Trap
avTcbv TOVTCov avrd raura TraprjKrjKoei' ov ydp

iartv dXXojv rotavrrj ao(j)ia tojv vvv avdpoiTTCOV.
E Kdyo) eiTTOV, Tt yeAa?, co KAeii^ta, iirl arrov-
BatoLs ovTO) TTpdyixaoL Kal KaXols ; Hi) ydp r]Br] ti
TTcoTTore elhes, & 'LcoKpares, koXov Trpdyfia; e(/)r] 6
AiovvcroScopos. "Eyojye, €(f)T]v, Kal iroXXa ye, a»
ALovvaoBwpe. 'Âpa eVepa ovra rod KaXov, €(f)r],
301 fj Tavrd rip koXw; Kayco iv Travrl eyev6p,7]v vrrd

aTTopias, Kol rjyovp.riv SiVata rreTTOvdevai,, on
eypvâ, ofxcos Se erepa €(f)r)v avrov ye rod KaXov'
Tidpeari pievroi eKdarco ainibv KdXXos ti. Edv
ovv, etfj-q, TTapayevrjraC aoi ôvs, ôvs et, /cat oti
vvv eyui aoi TidpeLpLt, Aiouvaobajpos el; EiV(f>-qp.€i
^ 5' olfxai Badhaiu : 5i uoi >iss<
482
—
EUTHYDEMUS
But then, my good sir, do all things sp>eak ?
Yes, suppose, at least those that speak.
I
But that is not what I ask, he said are all things
:
silent or do they speak ?

Neither and both, said Dionysodorus, snatching
the word from him I am quit^ sure that is an
:
answer that ^vill baffle you !
At this Ctesippus, as his manner was, gave a

mighty guffaw, and said Ah, Euthydemus, your
:
brother has made the argimaent ambiguous with

his " both," and is worsted and done for.
Then Cleinias was greatly dehghted and laughed,
so that Ctesippus felt his strength was as the strength
of ten : —
but I fancy Ctesippus he is such a rogue
had picked up these very words by overhearing the
men themselves, since in nobody else of the present
age is such wisdom to be found.
So I remarked WTiy are you laughing, Cleinias,
:
at such serious and beautiful things ?

What, have you, Socrates, ever yet seen a beauti-
ful thing ? asked Dionysodorus.
Yes, I have, I repUed, and many of them, Dionyso-
dorus.
Did you them different from the beautiful,
find
he same as the beautiful ?
said, or the
Here I was desperately perplexed, and felt that
I had my deserts for the grunt I had made how- :
ever, I replied that they were different from the

beautiful itself, though each of them had some
beauty present with it.
So if an ox is present with you, he said, you are an
ox, and since I am now present with you, you are
Dionysodorus.
Heavens, do not say that I cried. !
483
PLATO
rovTo ye, rjv 8' iyco. 'AAAa riva rpotrov, €(f>r],
erepov erepu) Trapayevofievov to erepov irepov av
B €17] ; *A/3a rovTO, €(f)7]v eyo), aTTOpels; rjSr) 8e

Tolv avSpoLV Tr)v aocfiiav eTrex^Lpovv jjufxetadat,
are €Tn6v[xa)v avrrjg. Ho)? yap ovk airopa), €(f)r],
/cat eycu /cat oi aAAoi a-navres dvdpajTTOc, o firj
eariv; Tt Xeyeis, -qv S' iyco, w AiowaoSojpe ; ov

TO KaXov KoXov €CTTt KOI TO oloxpov oioxpov; 'Eai'
efioLye, e<f>-q, Soktj. Ovkovv So/cet; Haw ye,
c<f>r]. Ovkovv /cat to ravrov ravrov /cat to CTepov

eTepov ; oi) yap hrjTTov to ye eTepov TavTov, dAA'
C eya>ye ovh av iralha (vfirjv tovto aTToprjaai, cu? ov

TO eTepov eTepov eoTiv. dAA', cS ^lovvaohojpe,
TOVTO fxev eKOJv TraprJKas, eVei to. dAAa fxot, So/cetre
woTTep oi SrjpnovpyoL, ols eKaoTa Trpoa-qKeL oltt-
epydt,eadai, /cat Vfxels to SiaXeyeadai Tray/cdAoj?

aTTepydêcrOai. Olada ovv, €(f)r], 6 Tt TrpocjrjKei
eKaoTOts Tcbv hiqpnovycjv ; TrpcoTov TtVa x'^XKeveLv
TTpoa-qKei, olada; "Eyajye* OTt ;âA/C€a. Tt Se

Kepafieveiv ; Kepa/xea. Tt 8e a(f)dTTeLv Te Kal
D eKhepetv /cat to. apuKpa Kpea KaTaKoiJ/avTa eif/ew
Kal OTTTav; Mdyecpov, rjv S eyo). Ovkovv edv

TiS, ^<i>f]i Tct TTpoarjKOVTa TTpaTTT), opddJs TTpdêi;
484
EUTHYDEMUS
But in what wav can one thing, bv ha\'ing a differ-
ent thing present with it, be itself different ?
Are you at a loss there ? I asked already I was :
attempting to imitate the cleverness of these men,

I was so eager to get it.
Can I help being at a loss, he said, I and likewise

everybody else in the world, in face of what cannot
be?
What is that you say, Dionysodorus ? I asked :
is not the beautiful beautiful, and the ugly ugly ?

Yes, if it seems so to me, he replied.
Then does it seem so ?
Certainly, he said.
Then the same also is the same, and the different
different .''
For I presume the
different cannot be
the same ; nay, I thought not even a child would
doubt that the different is different. But, Dionyso-
dorus, you have deliberately passed over this one
point ; though, on the whole, I feel that, like crafts-
men finishing off each his special piece of work,
you two are carrying out your disputation in excellent
style.
Well, he asked, do you know what is each
craftsman's special piece of work ? First of all,
whose proper task is it to forge brass ? Can you
tell?
I can :a brazier's.
Well, again, whose to make pots ?
A potter's.
Once more, whose to slaughter and skin, and after
cutting up the joints to stew and roast ?
A caterer's, I said.
Now, if one does one's proper work, he said, one
will do rightly ?
485
PLATO
MaAicrra. Tlpoa-qKei Se ye, to? ^7^?, tov fidyeipov
KaraKOTTTCiv koL CKhepcLv; cojUoAoyrycra? ravra ^
ov; 'QuoXoyqaa, e^rjv, dAAa (rvyyvcofjirjv /jloi
€;ê. ArjXov tolvvv, -q 8 o?, on av ti? cr^dâs

rov /xayeipov Kai KaraKoipas iip-qarj Kal OTrrtjarj,
ra TTpoarjKovra TTOL-qaec Kal idv rov )(aXK€a ns

avTov pâA/ceJiy Kal rov Kcpapiia Kepafievrj, Kal
OVTOS TO, TTpOarjKOVTa 7Tpd^€L.
E Q, IloaetSov, -^v 8 iyco, rjSrj KoXocj)a)va iiTiTidrjs
rfj ao<j>ia. dpd (xoi ttotc avrrj TrapayevTâeraL,

ojare fioi oiKeia yeviaOai; ^YiTTiyvoiris av avr-qv,
CO YittiKpare'S , €(f)7],
oiKeiav yevofievrjv ; 'Ea^' av ye
ôvXr), €(f)r]v eyo), SrjXov on. Tt 8e', rj 8' o?) ra
aavTov o'Ui yiyvcoaKeiv ; Et fji-q tl av dXXo Ae'yet?'
ttTTo aov yap Set dpxâdai, reXevrav 8' els ^vdv-

SrjfjLov TovSe. *Ap' ovv, €(f>rj, ravra rjyel ad
€Lvai, cov dv dp^-QS Kal c^fj aoi avrois XPW^^^ ^
302 Tl dv ôvXr); olov ôvs Kal rrpoârov, dp* dv
riyoLO ravra ad etvai, d aoi eêtyy /cat dTTOôadai
Kal hovvak Kal dvaac drip ôvXoio Oewv; a 8' dv
fXTj ovrcos ^xj}) ov ad; Kdyco, rjSr] yap on ef
avrcov KaXov n avaKvi/joiro rdJv ipcorrjfidrcov,
Kal dfia ôvXofievog rt raî'CTT aKovaat-, Haw

p,kv ovv, €(f>rjv, ovrojs ^X^^' "^^ roiavra ion puova
^ The Greek words follow a usual form of prayer or hymn
to the gods.
486
EUTHYDEMUS
Yes, to be sure.
And is it, as you say, the caterer's proper work to
cut up and skin ? Did you admit this or not ?
I did so, I replied, but pray forgive me.
It is clear then, he proceeded, that if someone
slaughters the caterer and cuts him up, and then stews
or roasts him, he will be doing his proper work ; and if
he hammers the brazier himself, and moulds the
potter, he will be doing his business likewise.
Poseidon I exclaimed, there you give the finishing-
!
touch to your wisdom, I wonder if this skill could

ever come to me in such manner as to be my very
own.
Would you recognize it, Socrates, he asked, if it
came to be your own ?
Yes, if only you are agreeable, I rephed, without
a doubt.
Why, he went on, do you imagine you perceive
what yours ?
is
Yes, if I take your meaning aright for all my
:
hopes arise from you, and end in Euthydemus

here.^
Then tell me, he asked, do you count those things
yours which you control and are free to use as you
please ? For instance, an ox or a sheep, would —
you count these as yours, if you were free to sell or
bestow them, or sacrifice them to any god you chose ?
And things which you could not treat thus are not
yours ?
Hereupon, since I knew that some brilliant result
was sure to bob up from the mere turn of the
questions, and as I also wanted to hear it as quickly
as possible, I said It is precisely as you say ; only
:
such things are mine.

487
PLATO
cfxa. Ti Se; ov ravra /caAei?, a av
ôJa, €(f)rj,
B ^vxrjv ^XU> Nai,'OfioXoyets o5v tcov

€(f>rjv.
t,a)cx>v ravra fxova etvat era, Trepl a av aoi iôvma
fj
iravra ravra ttol€iv, a vvv Srj eyoj eXeyov; 'Ojxo-
AoycD. Kal 6s, elptovLKibs ttolvv ima-)(^Li)V to? ri
fxeya aKOTTovjx^vos, EiTre /xot, ^<f>'^,
to YiWKpares,
eari aoi Zei)? narpcoos ; Kal iych VTcorrrevaas
Tjêiv rov Xoyov fJTrep ireXevr-qaev , airopov rtva
arpo(f>7)v e<f)€vy6v re Kal iarp€(f)6fJLr]V 17817 (Zanep
iv SiKrvo) elXripi}X€VOS' Ovk eariv, riv
8' eyd>, a»
^lovvaohaype. TaXaincopog apa ns av ye dvOpco-
Q 7TOS el Kal oi58e 'Aî7i'aros', <5 fi-qre deol Trarpcoot
elai {Ji'qre lepa fxt^re dXXo firjSev KaXou Kal dyadov.
Ea, rjv 8 iyco, tS AcovvaoScope ev(f)T]iJi,ei re /cat fir]
,
XOiXeTTcos fxe TrpoStSacrKe . ean yap epLoiye Kal

ficojxol Kal lepa ocKeZa Kal -narpcpa Kal rd dXXa
oaaTTep roXs dXXois *A9-qvaLOLS r(x>v roiovrcov.
Etra Tot? dXXoLS, e(f)rj, Adiqvaiois ovk ean Zey? o
TTarpa)os ; Ovk earw, rjv 8' eyay, avrrj tj eTTCovvfXLa
Iwviov ovhevi, ovd' oaoi e/c Ti7cr8e ti7S" TToXecos
aTTtpKiafievoL elalv ovd* "QP-^v, dXXd 'AttoAAwv
D TTarpa>os hid rov "Icovog yeveaiv Zei)? 8
rr)v
r^pZv TTarpcpos p,ev ov KaXelrai, epKeios 8e /cat
(/)pdrpios, Kal * Kdiqvaia} (f)parpLa. 'AAA' dpKel
ye, e(f)rj 6 ALovvaoSojpos ean yap aoi, (hs eoiKev,
.
'AttoAAcov re Kal Zei)? Kal Âdrjvd. Davy, ^v 8'

^ 'A^T/va/a Cobet : 'Ad-nvS. -mss.
^ Zeus was the ancestral or tutelary god of the Dorians.

*
Cf. Eurip. Ion, 64-75. Apollo begot Ion upon Creusa,
daughter of Erechtheus.
488
EUTHYDEMUS
Well now, he went on ; you call those things
animals which have life ?
Yes, I said.
And you admit that only those animals are yours
which you are at liberty to deal with in those various
ways that I mentioned just now ?
I admit that.
—
Then after a very ironical pause, as though he
—
were pondering some great matter he proceeded :
Tell me, Socrates, have you an ancestral Zeus ^ ?

Here I suspected the discussion was approaching
the point at which it eventually ended, and so I
tried what desperate wTiggle I could to escape
from the net in which I now felt myself entangled.
My answer was I have not, Dionysodorus.
:
What a miserable fellow you must be, he said,

and no Athenian at all, if you have neither ancestral
gods, nor shrines, nor anything else that denotes a
gentleman !
Enough, Dionysodorus speak fair words, and

;
don't browbeat your pupil For I have altars and

!
shrines, domestic and ancestral, and ever>i:hing else

of the sort that other Athenians have.
Then have not other Athenians, he asked, their
ancestral Zeus ?
None of the lonians, I replied, give him this title,
neither we nor those who have left this city to
settle abroad : they have an ancestral Apollo,
because of Ion's parentage.^ Among us the name
" ancestral " is not given to Zeus, but that of" house-
ward " and " tribal," and we have a tribal Athena.
That will do, said Dionysodorus ; you have, it
seems, Apollo and Zeus and Athena.
Certainly, I said.
489
.
PLATO
iycxi. QvKOvv Kol ovroi aol deol av elev; €(f)rj.
Ilpoyovoi, "^v S' iyio, /cai SecrTrdrai. 'AAA' oSv aol

ye, €(f>rj- rj ov aovs (L/xoXoy-qKas avTov^ eivai;
'Q.ljLoX6yr]Ka, €(f)7^v' tl yap Trddo); Ovkovv, €(/)rj,
/cat ^cod elaiv ovtol ol 6eoi; (LfxoXoyqKag yd-p,

E oaa ipvxyjv ^)(€L, ^cpa eivai. tj ovtol ol Oeol ovk
exovai ipvx'qv; "Epôucrtv, '^v S' eyco. Ovkovv
Kal ^cpd elaiv ; 'Lcoa, €(f>7jv. Tcov Se ye l,cocov, eî],
cofxoXoyr^Kas ravr* elvai ad, oaa dv aoi e^fj Kal

So wat Kal aTToBoadai Kal dvaat av deco otoi ai' ôvXr]
D.fioX6yr)Ka, €(f)r)v. ovk earc yap jxol dvdhvaig, c5
Ei)0i;87j/i,e , "I^t hrj fxoi evdvs, "q 8' os, cIttc
eVeiSi) aov ojLtoAoyet? clvat rov Ala Kal roiis

dXXovs deovg, dpa eêarl aoi avrovs aTToSoadai
303 7} Sovvai r) aAA' o ti dv ôvXr) ;^/37^CTâ6 (Zairep rots
dXXoig t,<i)o IS ; iydi fJ-ev ovv, cu Kplrcov, wairep
TrAr^yetS" ^776 tov Xoyov, iKelfJuqv d(f>a)vog' 6 Se
l^TrjaLTTTTos fjLOi Icov U)S PoT]d-âct)V , IluTrTra^ tS
Hpa/cAets', ecJiT], KaXov Xoyov. Kal 6 AiovvaoScopos,

Tlorepov ovv, e^Ty, o 'YipaKXrjg TrvTnrd^ iariv t)
6 TTVTTTTa^ 'UpaKXrjs; Kal 6 l^r'qaLTnros , *Q Ho-

aeiSov, €(f>r), SeivdJv Xoycov d(f>laTap.at' djj-dxoj
Toj dvBpe.
B ^vravda /xevTOi, c5 ^t'Ae K.plTa)v, ovSels oarcs
ov riov TTapovrctiv VTTepeTrrjveae rov Xoyov Kal rdi
dvhpe, Kal yeXwvres Kal Kporovvres Kal ;!(at/3ov'T6?^
oXlyov TTaperddrjaav . errl fxkv yap rols efiTrpo-
* 7eXcDi'r£j . . . KpoTovvres . . . xtt^povres Badham : êXuu'T*

. , . KpoTOvvre , . . ;tai/)OVTe MSS.
4<90
!
EUTHYDEMUS
Then these must be your gods ? he said.
Myancestors, I said, and lords.
Well, at least, you have them, he said or have :
you not admitted they are yours ?

I have admitted it, I replied what else could
:
I do?
And are not these gods animals ? he asked :
you know you have admitted that whatever has life

is an animal. Or have these gods no life ?
They have, I replied.
Then are they not animals ?
Yes, animals, I said.
And those animals, he went on, you have admitted
to be yours, which you are free to bestow and sell
and sacrifice to any god you please.
I have admitted it, I replied there is no escape
;
for me, Euthydemus.

Come then, tell me straight off, he said since ;
you admit that Zeus and the other gods are yours,
are you free to sell or bestow them or treat them
just as you please, like the other animals ?
Well, Crito, here I must say I was knocked out,
as it were, by the argument, and lay speechless ;
then Ctesippus rushed to the rescue and Bravo, —

Hercules ! he cried, a fine argument
Whereat Dionysodorus asked Now, do you mean
:
that Hercules is a bravo, or that bravo is Hercules ?

Ctesippus replied : Poseidon, what a frightful use
of words I give up the fight
! these two are
:
invincible.
Hereupon I confess, my dear Crito, that every-
one present without exception wildly applauded the
argument and the two men, till they all nearly died
of laughing and clapping and rejoicing. For their
491
,
PLATO
adev €0' eKaaroig Trdcn TrayKoiXajs idopvôvv fxovoi
OL Tov ^vdvSrjjjLOV ipacTTat, evravda 8e oXtyov /cat
OL KLOV€S OL €V TO) AvKCLO) idopV^Tjadv T 6771 Totv
avSpolv Kal rjadrjuav. iycb /xev ovv Kal avTos
ovrco hLeredrjV, ware. OfxoXoyeiV p.rjSei'as TxcoTTOTe
Q avdpcoTTOVs ovrco ao(f)ovs, kol TravraTTaaL
ISelv
KaraSovXojdels vtto ri]s aocf)Las avrolv em to
eTTaiveiv re /cai ey/cco/xtaêiv' avroj irpaTTOfirjv, /cat
€LTrov Q, ixaKoipioi acfxl) rrjs davfxaarrjs (f)va€a}s,
OLroaovrov TrpdypLa ovrco ra^v kol iv oXiycp xpovco
iêipyaadov ttoXXo. p.ev ovv kol dXXa ol XoyoL
.
vpLCJJv KoXd exovoLV, CO ^vdvSr}p,€ re Kal Aiovvcro-

Scope' €v 8e rots /cat rovro pLeyaXoTrpeTricrrepov
on rojv TToXXcov dvdpcoTTCov /cat roJv aepLvcov Srj /cat
SoKovvrcov Tt etiât ovBev vfxlv /xeAet, dAAa rcov
opLOLCjjv vpLLV pLovov .yap ev oiSa, on rovrovs
iyco
D rovg Xoyovs dv oXiyoL dyaircoev dvOpconoL
ttolvv p.kv
opLOLOL vpLLv, OL 8' ctAAot ouTOj voovcTLv avrovs, OiOr
ev oi8 OTt alayyvQe'lev dv p^dXXov eêXeyôvres
roLovroLs XoyoLS rovg dXXovs ^ avrol eêXeyxofievoi.
/cat roSe av erepov Srjp,oriK6v rL /cat Trpaov ev
Toi? Aoyots" OTTorav (f>rjre p^'Qre KaXov elvaL pirjSev
fjL-qre dyaOov TTpdypua pirfre XevKov p>rjS* dXXo rcov
roLovrcov p,rjSev, p,r]Se ro napdTrav erepcov erepov,

drexvcos pêv rep ovrL ^vppdirrere rd aropara rcov
E dvdpcoTTCov, oiOTrep kcjX (f)are- orL 8 ov p,6vov rd
rcjv dXXcov, dXXd hoâLre dv /cat rd vp.erepa avrcL,
rovro rravv ;!(aptei' re iarL /cat to erraxBes rcov Xo-
ycov d<f>aLpelraL ro 8e 817 peyLorov, on ravra
.
ovrcos ex€L vp,lv /cat rexvLKcbs eêvprjrai, cxxrre ttovv

oXiycp xpdvcx) ovrLvovv dv p.adelv dvdpcoTTcov, eyvcov
492
EUTHYDEMUS
previous successes had been highly acclaimed one
by one, but only by the devotees of Euthydemus ;
whereas now almost the very pillars of the Lyceum
took part in the joyful acclamations in honour of
the pair. For myself, I was quite disposed to
admit that never had I set eyes on such clever
people, and I was so utterly enthralled by their
skill that I betook myself to praising and congratulat-
ing them, and said Ah, happy pair
: ! What amazing
genius, to acquire such a great accomplishment so
quickly and in so short a time ! Among the many
fine points in your arguments, Euthydemus and
Dionysodorus, there is one that stands out in
—
particular magnificence that you care not a jot
for the multitude, or for any would-be important or
famous people, but only for those of your own sort.
And I am perfectly sure that there are but a few
persons like yourselves who would be satisfied with
these arguments the rest of the world regard them
:
only as arguments with which, I assure you, they

would feel it a greater disgrace to refute others
than to be refuted themselves. And fiuther, there
is at the same time a popular and kindly featiu*e in
your talk :when you say there is nothing either

beautiful, or good, or white, and so on, and no
difference of things at all, in truth you simply
stitch up men's mouths, as you expressly say you
do ; while as to your apparent power of stitching
up your own mouths as well, this is a piece of agree-
able manners that takes off any offence from your
talk. But the greatest thing of all is, that this
faculty of yours is such, and is so skilfully contrived,
that anyone in the world may learn it of you in a
very short time ; this fact I perceived myself by
VOL. IV R 493
. . ,
PLATO
tycoye /cat roi K.TrjmTTTTCp rov vovv 7rpocre;\;ajv, (hs
ra)^v V[xds e/c tov Trapaxp'rjfJ-CL fiiixeladai olos t'
r)v. TOVTO fxev ovv tov Trpdyixaros a(f>(I)v Trpo's p.kv
304 TO Ta^v 7TapaSi86vai KaXov, ivavTiov 8' dvdpcoTrojv
oiaXiyeadai ovk eTTtT-qSeLov, aAA' dv y i/Jiol irei-
drjade, evXa^rjaecrde {jltj rroXXaJv ivavTiov Xiyeiv, tva
H'V "TC-X^ eKfMadovTeg vplv /jLyj eiStucri ;\;a/)iv oAAd
fjidXiGTa fxev avTO) Trpos dXXijXco fMovto SLaXeyeadov.,
€t Oe fXT^, €LTT€p CtAAoU TOV ivaVTLOV, CKelvOV fJLOVOV,
OS dv vfXLV SiSoj dpyvpiov. rd avTa 8e raura,

B €av au}(l>povrJT€ , /cat rots' [xadrjTats cwfiôvXcvaeTe
fjLrjSeTTOTe fx-qSevl SiaXeyeadat, dAA' t]
dvdpcoTTOjv
v/juu t€ /cat to yap andviov, at ^vdvSrj/JLe,
avTOLs.
TLfjLLOV TO 8e vScDp CVCOVOTaTOV, dpiOTOV 6v, cu?
€<j>rj Ylivhapos oAA' dy€Te, "^v 8' iyco, ottcds Kafie
.
Kat, K^CLvtav TovSe Trapaheêadov

Tayra, c5 KptVcor, /cat dAAa ^paxâ 8taAe-
X^^VTes aTT-rjfjLev. a/cdvret ovv, ottcos avijL(f>OLT'qaeLg
C Trapd TO) dvSpe, cos e/cetVco âTov otuj t eivat StSctf at
TOV IQiXovT dpyvpiov 8t8di'ai, /cat ovtc <f>vaiv ovd
•f^XiKiav eêipyeiv ovSefxiav —o 8e /cat croi /xaAtcrra
TTpoai^Kei dKovaai, otl ovSe tov ;)(/)7j/LtaTtêaâi
(f>aTov SiaKOjXveiv ovSev — ov rrapaXaêlv ovtivovv
fir]
€V7T€Tcos TTjv a(f)€T€pav ao(j>iav

KPI. Kat P''^^, c5 HcoKpaTes, (j)LXrjKOOS fiev
eycoye /cat -^Seojs dv rt /xavdavoLpî, KivSwevco
fievTot Kdyd) els elvai tcjv ovx ofioicov EivdvBijpâ},
dAA' €K€LVCov, (x)v Bt] /Cat av eXeyes, rdjv rjSiov dv
J) iêXeyxofxevcov vtto tCov tolovtcov Xoycov t] e^-
eXeyxdvTCov. drdp yeXolov fxev /xot 8o/cet €tvai
494
—
EUTHYDEMUS
watching Ctesippus and observing how quickly he
was able to imitate you on the spot. Now, in so
far as your accomplishment can be quickly imparted,
it is excellent but for public discussions it is not
;
suitable : may advise you, beware of talking

if I
before a number of people, lest they learn the whole
thing in a trice and give you no credit for it. The
best thing for you is to talk to each other by your-
selves, in private failing that, if a third person is
;
present, it must be someone who will pay you a

good fee. And if you are prudent you will give
this same counsel to your pupils also that they —
are never to converse with anybody except you
and each other. For it is the rare, Euthydemus,
that is precious, while water is cheapest, though
best, as Pindar ^ said. But come, I said, see if
you can admit both me and Cleinias here to your
class.
This, Crito, was our conversation, and after ex-
changing a few more words we went off. Now you
must arrange to join us in taking lessons from the
pair ;for they say they are able to teach anyone
who is willing to pay good money, and that no sort
—
of character or age and it is well that you especially
should be told that they promise that their art is
—
no hindrance to money-making need deter anyone
from an easy acquisition of their wisdom.
CRi. Indeed, Socrates, I love listening, and would
be glad to learn from them but I am afraid I am
;
one of the sort who are not like Euthydemus, but

who, as you described them just now, would prefer
being refuted to refuting with such arguments.
Now, although I feel it is absurd to admonish you,
^
Cf. Pindar, 01. i., which begins ' kpuarov itkv vSup.
495
PLATO
TO vovdereXv ere, o/jlojs 8e, a y' tJkovov, iOeXco croi
aTTayyetXai. tcov d<f>^ ufxaJv olttlovtcov tad^ oti

TTpoaeXddyv rig fiot TrepnrarovvrL, dvrjp olofxevos
TTovv elvai croôs, tovtcov rt? rcou Trepl tovs Xoyovs
Tovs els TO, BiKaar'qpt.a Seiviov, ^D. KptTcov, ^(f^V'
ovSev (XKpoa rcovSe rcbv ao(f>a)v; Ov jxd rov Ata, ^v
S iyu)' ov yap olos r* rj Trpoaards KaraKovetv vtto
rov o^Xov. Kat fji'qv, €(f>r], d^Lov y r^v aKovaai.
11 oe; rjv o eyu). Iva TjKovcras avopoiv ota-
Xeyofjcevcov , ot vvv aocfxoTaroL elai rcov Trepl tovs\
TOLOVTOvs Xoyovs. Kayo) eliTov, Tt ovv i<j)ai-
vovro aoi; ll oe aAAo, rj o os, i] otanep aei av

T19 Tcov TOiovro)v aKovaai Xrjpovvrcov /cat nepl
ovSevos dîoiv dvaîav airovSrjv notovfjievcov ; ov-
Tcoal yap ttco? /cat elTre rots ovojxaai. /cat ly<x),
'AAAd jLteWot, €^171^, x^P^^^ y^ '^^ irpdyfjid iartv

rj (f)iXoaocf)la. Holov, ecj)-!), ^P-piev, cL /xa/ca/jte;
305 ovhevos fJ-ev ovv d^tov, dXXd /cat et vvv -napeyivov,
irdw dv arc otyLtat alcr)(wdrjvai vrrep rov aeavrov
iraipov ovriag tjv droTTog, ideXcov iavrov Trap-
ex^LV dvdpd>7Tois, OLS ovSev jxeXeL o ri dv Xeyaxrt,
TTavros Se p-qpLaros dvrexovrat. /cat ovroi, drrep
dpri eXeyov, ev rots KparicrroLs elal rcbv vvv.
dXXd yap, 60 Y^piroiv, €(f>rj, ro Trpay/xa avro /cat
ot dvdpcjTTOi ot eVt ru) TrpdyfxarL Scarplôvres

(f)avXoL elac /cat KarayeXaaroi . €p,ol hi, c3
HcoKpareg, ro Trpdyfia eSo/cet ovk op9d)s ifieyeiv
B ovd^ oSros out' €1 ris dXXos ipeyec ro fxevroi

496
:
;
EUTHYDEMUS
I wish nevertheless to report to you what was told
me just now. Do you know, one of the people who
had left your discussion came up to me as I was
—
taking a stroll a man who thinks himself very
wise, one of those who are so clever at turning
out speeches for the law-courts ^ and said — Crito, :
do you take no lessons from these wise men ? No,

in truth, I replied there was such a crowd that,
:
though I stood quite close, I was unable to catch

what was said. Well, let me tell you, he said, it
was something worth hearing. What was it ? I
asked. You would have heard the disputation of
men who are the most accomplished of our day in
that kind of speaking. To this I repUed Well, :
what did they show forth to you ? Merely the sort

of stuff, he said, that you may hear such people
—
babbling about at any time making an inconsequent
ado about matters of no consequence (in some such
parlance he expressed himself). WTiereupon Well, —
all the same, I said, philosophy is a charming thing.
Charming is it, my dear innocent ? he exclaimed :
nay, a thing of no consequence. Why, had you been in

that company just now, you would have been filled
with shame, I fancy, for your particular friend he :
was so strangely wilhng to lend himself to persons

who care not a straw what they say, but merely
fasten on any phrase that turns up. And these, as
I said just now, are the heads of their profession
to-day. But the fact is, Crito, he went on, the
business itself and the people who follow it are
worthless and ridiculous. Now, in my opinion,
Socrates, he was not right in decrying the pursuit
he is wrong, and so is anyone else who decries it
1 The allusion is probably to Isocrates.
497
;
PLATO
edcAeiv oiaXiyeoOai roiovrois ivavrtov ttoAAcuv
avdpcoTTCov opOcos /xot eSd/cet /xe/xêaât.
2n. Q. K^pLTiov, davfxdaioi elaiv ol roiovroi
av8p€9. drap ovno) olSa 6 n /xe'AAo) ipeXv.
TTorepcov r]v o TrpoaeXdcov aoi koI fi€fj,(f)6p,€vos ttjv
<f)iXoao(f)Lav ; TTorepov rcbv dyojviaaadai heiVMV
ev rols SiKaarrjpLOig, p-qrcop rig, -^ ru)V rovs tolov-
Tovs eiaTTepiTTOvTCxiv , TTotiqTr^s tojv Xoyiov, ols ol
ovTooes dyo)vit,ovrai
KPi. "H/ctcTTa 1^17 Tov Ata prfoip, ou8e of/xat
TTCxiTTOT avTov €7x1 hLKaaTTjpiov dva^€^r]K€vaf dAA'
€7Tatetv avrov (f)aai nepl rov TTpdy/xarog vrj tov
Ata Kal Setvov eluai /cat Setvovs Xoyovs avvTcdevai.
2n. "HSrj jjLavddvu)' Trepl tovtcov Kal avros
vvv 8rj e/xeAAov Xeyeiv. ovtoi, yap etcri /xev, lo
KptVcov, ovs €(f)r) YlpoSiKog fiedopia (f>iXoa6(f)OV

T€ dv8p6s KOI TToXlTLKOV, otoVTai 8' Ctl'at TTOVTOiV
aocfxLraroi, dvdpcoTTCOv, vpos Se to) €tvai Kal
8oK€iV TTOW Trapd ttoXXols, ojore irapd irdaiv
D :v8oKLfX€lv epLTTohdyv a(f)Lcrt,v elvat ouSeVa? dXXovs

r) rovs TTcpl (f)iXo(TO(f)iav avdpconovs. riyovvrai
ovv, idv TOVTOVS els 86âv KaraarrjacocrL firjSevos
SoKelv d^LOVS €Lvai, dvapL(jii(J^'qrrira)s tJStj Trapd
TTaai TO, VLKTjT'qpta et? Soâv otaeadaL ao(f)iag Tript.
etvai fiev yap rfj dXr]deia a<j)ds ao(f)0)Tdrovs , ev

8e rots' ISlols Xoyois orav aTToXei^dcjaiv , vtto rcov
dp,^l ^vdvSrjfxov KoXoveadai. ao(f)ol 8e r^yovvrai
elvai irdw cIkotcos' pêrpicos fJLev yap (f>LXoao(f)Las
e;(eiv, fxerpiojs 8e ttoXltikcov, ttovv i^ cIkotos
498
EUTHYDEMUS
though I must say I felt he was right in blaming
the readiness to engage in discussion with such
people before a large company.
soc. Crito, these people are very odd. But I
do not yet know what answer I shall give you. Of
which party was he who came up to you and blamed
philosophy ? Was he one of those who excel in
the contests of the courts, an orator ; or of those
who equip the orators for the fray, a composer of
the speeches they deliver in their contests ?
CRi. Nothing of an orator, I dare swear, nor do I
think he has ever appeared in court : only he is
reputed to know about the business, so they declare,
and to be a clever person, and compose clever
speeches.
soc. Now I understand : it was of these people
that I was just now going to speak myself. They
are the persons, Crito, whom Prodicus described as
the border-ground between philosopher and poUti-
cian, yet they fancy that they are the >visest of all
mankind, and that they not merely are but are
thought so by a great many people and accordingly
;
they feel that none but the followers of philosophy

stand in the way of their universal renoA^Ti. Hence
they believe that, if they can reduce the latter
to a status of no esteem, the prize of victory will by
common consent be awarded to them, without dis-
pute or delay, and their claim to wisdom will be won.
For they consider themselves to be in very truth the
wisest, but find that, when caught in private conversa-
tion, they are cut off short by Euthydemus and his
set. This conceit of their wisdom is very natural,
since they regard themselves as moderately versed
in philosophy, and moderately too in politics, on
499
PLATO
E Aoyov /xereêiv yap aj.i(borepu)V oaov eSei, cktos
8e ovfes Kivhvvojv /cat dycovcov Kapnovadat Tr)V
ao(f)iav.
KPi. Ti ovv ; hoKovai aoi rl, (L JjCOKpares,

Xeyeiv; ov yap rot aAA' o ye Aoyo? e;\;ei tlvol ev-
7Tp€7T€t,av raJv dvSpcbv.
2n. Kai yap e;êt ovtcos, c5 KpiTcov, evTrpcTTeiav
cOQ fxdXXov 7] dXÔeiav. ov yap pahiov avrovs
TTelaac, on Kal dvdpcoTTOi /cat rdAAa Trdvra, oaa
fiera^v tlvolv Bvolv earl /cat dfX(f)or€poiv rvyxdvei
IJi€T€Xovra, oaa jxev e/c /ca/cou /cat dyaôy, rod
fxeu êXnco, rod 8e X^^P^ ylyverav oaa Be e/c
Svotv dyadoLV fxrj irpos ravrov, dfxôlv ;(€tpa»,
TTpos o dp eKarepov fj XPV^'''^^ eKelvcov, e^ a)V

avveredrj- oaa he e/c hvoiv KaKoZv avvredevra
fxrj rrpos ro avro ovroiv ev rep pbiao) eari, ravra
B fjuova êXrlcx) eKarepov eKeivoiv eariv, (hv dix(f>orepo}v
p,€pos fierexovatv . et p,ev ovv rj (f)LXoao(jiia
dyadov eari /cat t] TToXiriKr) Trpd^ts, rrpos dXXo

he eKarepa, ovroi h afxôrepiov pêrexovres
rovrojv ev fieaco elatv, ovSev Xeyovaiv apôrepujv
yap elai (f)avX6repoi' el he ayadov /cat KaKov,
rojv fJbev êXriovs, rcov he ;!êtpous" et Se /ca/cct
dp,(f)6repa, ovra>s dv n Xeyoiev dXrjdes, dXXcog

8' ovhapa)S. ovk dv ovv olp,ai avrovs opoXo-
Q yrjaai ovre KaKOi avroj dp<j)orepo} etvat ovre ro
pev KaKov, ro he dyadov dXXd r<p ovrt, ovroi
dp(l)orepaiV p.erexovres dp(f>orep(x)V -^rrovs elal
500
EUTHYDEMUS
quite reasonable grounds : for they have dipped
into both as far as they needed, and, evading all
risk and struggle, are content to gather the fruits
of wisdom.
CRi. Well, now, do you consider, Socrates, that
there is anything in what they say ? It is not to
be denied that these men have some colour for their
statements.
see. Yes, that is so, Crito ; colour rather than
truth. It is no easy matter to persuade them that
either people or things, which are between two
other things and have a certain share of both, if
compounded of bad and good are found to be better
than the one and worse than the other ;but if
compounded of two good things which have not the
same object, they are worse than either of their
components in relation to the object to which each
of them is adapted ; while if they are compounded
of two bad things which have not the same object,
and stand between them, this is the only case
where they are better than either of the two things
of which they have a share. Now if philosophy
and the statesman's business are both good things,
and each of them has a different object, and if these
persons, partaking of both, are between them, their
claims are nought ; for they are inferior to both :
if one is good and the other bad, they are better

than the one and worse than the other : while if
both are bad, in this case there would be some truth
in their statement, but in any other case there is
none. Now I do not think they will admit either
that both these things are bad, or that one is bad and
the other good : the truth is that these people,
partaking of both, are inferior to both in respect of
VOL. IV R 2 301
. ,
PLATO
npos CKarepov, Trpos o 17 re ttoXltikti Kai 17 <îAo-
ao(f)ia a^luj Xoyov iarov, /cat rpcroi. ovres rfj
dXrjdeLa t,rjTOvai Trpcorot, SoKelv elvai. ovyyi-
yvcoGKCLv jxev ovv avTots XPV ""7^ eTTtdvjxias /cat
1X7] ;(;aAe7ratVeiv, rjyeladai fievTOi, tolovtovs elvai
oloi etcri- iravra yap dvSpa XPV osyaTrav, oar is
/cat OTLOvv Ae'yet ixo/xevov (fjpovqcrecos Trpdyp.a
D /cat dvhpeiojs eTreîcbv StaTroreirat.
KPi. Kat ix-qv, (L Saj/cpaTC?, Kai avTos irepl
rGiV viioiv, cocTTrep act Trpos ae Xeyoj, ev dTTopia
elfiL, rl Set avrols XPV^^^^'^''- ^ H'^^ ^^^ vedi-
repos €TL Kai apuKpos eart,, KpLTOôvXog S 1787^
rjXiKLav e;êt /cat Setrat tlvos, oans avrov oviqaeL.
iyoj iikv ovv orav aol ^vyyevcofiaL, ovrco Sta-
TLdefiai, ware fxoi So/cetv fxavtav elvat ro evsKa
rcjv TTaihoiV dXXojv fxev ttoXXcov aTTOvSrjv roiavrrjv
E eax''^K€vai, Kat Trepl rov ydfiov, orruis e/c yev-
vaiordrrjs eaovrat [xrjrpos, /cat Trepl rcbv xP'T)P'drojv
OTTOJS COS" TrXovanoraroL, avrdjv 8e Trepl TratSeta?
dfieXijaai' orav Se ets riva drro^Xeipco rojv (f>a-
aKovrcov dv TraiSevaaL dvdpcoTTOvs, eKTTeTrXrjyfMai,
Kai fjLOL 80/cet els eKaaros avrcbv aKovovvri tto.vv
307 dXXoKoros elvai, cu? ye Trpos ae rdXrjOrj elprjadat,'
ware ovk exoj ottojs TrporpeTTOJ ro /xeipaKLov
eVt ^LXoao(j)iav
2n. ^n ^t'Ae Kplroiv, OVK olada, on ev navrl
eTTLrrjSevfAarL oi p-ev (f>avXoL ttoXXol Kai ovêvos
d^LOL, ol 8e aTTOvSaXoL oXlyoi Kai Travros dîoi;
eTTel yvpivaariKTj ov KaXdv SoKel aoi eiiât, koX
XprjiJiarLariKr} /cat prjropiKrj Kat arpar-qyia;
502
— ;
EUTHYDEMUS
the objects for which statesmanship and philosophy
are important ; and while they are really in the
third place they seek to be accorded the first. How-
ever, we ought to be indulgent towards their
ambition and not feel annoyed, while still judging
them to be what they actually are. For we should
be glad of anyone, whoever he may be, who says
anything that verges on good sense, and labours
steadily and manfully in its pursuit.
CRi. Now I myself, Socrates, as 1 so often tell
you, am in doubt about my sons, as to what I am to
do with them. The younger is as yet quite small
but Critobulus is already gro^vn up, and needs
someone who ^vill be of ser\ice to him. WTien I
am in your company, the effect on me is such as
to make me feel it is mere madness to have taken
ever so much pains in various directions for the good
—
of my children -first in so marrying that they
should be of very good blood on their mother's side ;
then in making money so that they might be as
well off as possible while I have neglected the
;
training of the boys themselves. But when I

glance at one of the persons who profess to educate
people, I am dismayed, and feel that each one of
them, when I consider them, is wholly unsuitable
to tell you the truth between ourselves. So that I
cannot see how I am to incline the lad towards
philosophy.
soc. My dear Crito are you not aware that in
every trade the duffers are many and worthless,
whereas the good workers are few and worth any
price ? Why, do you not hold athletics, and money-
making, and rhetoric, and generalship, to be fine
things ?
503
;
,
PLATO
KPl, "E/MOiye rrdvTCOs St^ttov.
B 2n. Tt ovv iv cKaarr] rovrojv rovg ttoAAouj
TTpos eKaarov to epyov ov KarayeXdoTovs 6pa,s;
KPl. Nat /io, rov Ata, Koi fxdXa dX7]drj Xiyeis.
sn. H ovv rovTov €V€Ka avTos re (f>€v^€L
Trdvra rd iTTLTrjSevfiaTa koi to) vUX ovk iTnTpeifteis

KPl. OvKovv StKaiov ye, c5 T,d>KpaTes.
2n. Mi^ roivvv 6 ye ov XPV 'ôUt, uj Kpircov,
aAA idcras ;!ât/3eii' rovs inLTrjhevovTas (jiiXoao(f)iav
C eiTe XPV^'^'^^ elaiv etre TTOvrjpoi, avro ro Trpdyfxa

paaaviaas KaXdJs re /cat ev, edv fiev aoi (fiaivr]Tai
(f>avXov ov, TTavr dvBpa aTTorpeTre, fxr) fxovov tovs
vleis' edv Se (f)aivrjTaL otov olfiai, avrd eyoj etvai,
dappdjv SiojKe /cat doKei, ro Xeyo/xevov 8rj tovto
avTos re /cat rd TratSta.
504
EUIHYDEMUS
CRi. Certainly I do, of course.
soc. Well then, in each of these, do you not see
most men making a ridiculous show at their respective
tasks ?
CRI. Yes, I know

what you say is perfectly true.
:
soc. Then you yourself on this account eschew

will
all these pursuits, and not let your son have anything
to do with them ?
CRI. No, there would be no good reason for that,
Socrates.
soc.Then avoid at least what is wrong, Crito :
let thosewho practise philosophy have their way,

whether they are helpful or mischievous and when
;
you have tested the matter itself, well and truly,

if you find it to be a poor affair, turn everyone
you can away from it, not only your sons but if
:
vou find it to be such as I think it is, pursue and

ply it without fear, both you, as they say, and yours.
505
INDEX OF NAMES
Abdera, birthplaceof Protagoras, 95 Aristippus, prince of Larisa in
Achilles, 187 Thessaly, friend of Meno, 265
Acumenus, father of Eryximachus, Athena, 133, 489
physician, 113 Axioohus, son of Alcibiades and
Adeimantus, (1) son of Cepis (2) ;
father of Cleinias, 379, 391
Athenian admiral, son of Leu-
colophidas, 115 Bias of Priene (near Miletus),
Aeneas, 47 Ionian sage, 197
Aeschylus, Athenian dramatist Briareus, a hundred-armed giant,
(c. 525-456 B.C.), Septem, 449 n. 478 n.
Aexone, Attic deme or district,
69 n. Callaeschrus, father of Critias, 115
Agathocles, Athenian music- Callias, wealtliy patron of sophists,
teacher, 119 n. 89-91, 111 tf.
Agathon, Athenian dramatist (c. Carian slave, 35 n., 427 n.

447-400 B.C.), 115 Cepis, father of Adeimantus, 115
Alcibiades (c. 450-404 B.C.), 89-91, Chaeredemus, father of Patrocles
115 ff.; the younger, cousin of the half-brother of Socrates,
Cleinias, 391 471
Aleuadae, princes of Larisa in Charmides, son of Glaucon and
Thessaly, 265 maternal uncle of Plato, 113
Alexidemus of Thessaly, father of Chilon of Sparta, a sage, 197
Meno, 287 Chios, Greek island off the coast
Andron, son of Androtion, 113 of Asia Minor, 381, 437
Anthemion, a tanner, father of Cleinias, (I) father of Alcibiades,
Anytus, 335 95 ; (2) younger brother of Alci-
Antimoerus of Mende (in the biades, 127 ; (3) son of Axiochus,
Chalcidic peninsula Pallene), 3S5
113 Cleobulus of Lindus in Rhodes, a
Antisthenes (c. 444-365 B.C.), dis- sage of the time of Solon, 197
ciple of Socrates and founder of Cleophantus, son of Themistocles,
the Cynic philosopliy. 431 n. 347
Anytus, son of Anthemion, tanner Colchis, on the east of the Black
and democrat, accuser of So- Sea, native land of Medea, 427
crates, 262, 335 Connus, .son of Metrobius, a harper,
Apollo, 197, 427 n., 477 n., 489 383, 463
ApoUodorus, father of Hippocrates Corinthus, mythical founder of
and Phason, 97, 117 Corinth, 453 n.
Ariphron, brother of Pericles, 127 Oriso of Himera in Sicily, a runner,
Aristeides, " the Just," Athenian 175
statesman (c. 530-468 B.C.), 3, 9, Critias (c. 455-404 B.C.),son ol
349 Callaeschrus and pupil of So-
506
INDEX
crates ; afterwards oligarch, 90, Hippias, of Ells, sophist, 89, 90,
115, 177 113 ff., 179 n.
Crito, wealthy Athenian and de- Hippocrates, of Cos, physician
voted disciple of Soorates, 376 ff. (c. 460-380 B.a), 99
Critobulos, son of Crito, 379, 50-2 Hippocrates, son of Apollodorns,
Crommyonian sow, 67 n. young friend of Socrates, 89,
Ctesippus, of Paeania in Attica, 121 ff.
385, 389 ff. Hipponicus, father of Callias, 99,

113, 115
Daedaliis, legendary inventor of Homer, 117; (II. viii. 107-8) 47;
sculpture, 361 (x.224) 215 ; (xxi. 305) 187; (xxiv.
Damon, Athenian musician and 34S) 93 ; (Od. iv. 385) 437 n., (456)
sophist, friend of Pericles, 13, 439 n ; (x. 494) 369 ; (xi. 582)
71, 79 114; (601)113; (xvii. 347)81
Delinm, battle at (424 B.C.), 15 n.,
41 n. Iccus of Tarentum, athlete and
Dionysodorus, sophist of Chios trainer, 117 n.
and Thurii, brother of Euthy- lolaus, son of Iphicles and nephew
demns, 379 ff. of Hercules, 471
Dioscuri, or Heavenly Twins Ion, son of Apollo and Creosa,
(Castor and Pollux, sons of Zeus), 489 n.
453 Ionian mode in music, 39 n.
Dorian mode in music, 39 n., 57 lonians, 489
Dorians, 4S9 n. Iphicles, half-brother of Hercules,
471
Empedocles, of Acragas in Sicily, Ismenias, democrat of Thebes,
philosopher (c. 475-415 B.C,), 335 n.
285 n. Lsocrates, Athenian
rhetorician
Epimetheus, brother of Prome- (436-338 B a), 376, 497 n.
theus, 129 ff., 257
Eryximachus, son of Acumenos, Laches, Athenian general (d. 418
physician, 113 B.C.), 3, 4 ff.
Endorns, a wrestling-master, 849 Larisa, town on the Peneus in

Eurybatns, a rogiv 149 n. Thessaly, 265
Euthydemus, sophist of Chios and Lenaeum, Atbenian dramatic festi-
Thurii, brother of Dionysodorus, val, 149 n.
379 ff. Leucolophidas, father of Adeiman-
tus, 115
Geryon, a three-headed and six- Lyceum, gymnasium dedicated to
armed giant, 479 n. Apollo Lyceus, in an eastern
Glaucon, the elder, father of Plato's suburb of Athens, 379, 385 n.
mother, 113 Lydian mode in music, 39 n.
Gorgias, of Leontini in Sicily, Lysimachus, son of Aristeides, 8,
sophist (c. 490-395 RaX 265, 4 ff., 349
285 n., 353, 367
Marsyas, satyr flayed by Apollo,
Hephaestus, eod of fire, 133 427 n.
Hercules, 469, 491 Medea, sorceress and wife of Jason,
Hermes, 135 427
Hero<iicu3, of Sel)-mbria in Thrace Melesias, 3
(north of the Propontis), trainer Menelaus, king of Sparta, 439
and physician, 117 Meno, son of Alexidemus of Thes-
Herodotus (c. 484-408 &a — ix. saly, 263
61-2), 49 Metrobius, father of Connus, 383
Hesiod, 117, 189 a. Musaeus, early bard, 117
507
INDEX
Myfon of Chen (? in Laconia), a Protagoras, of Abdera on the south
sa-e, 197 coast of Thrace, sophist (c. 490-
415 B.C.), 86 ff., 341, 431 n.
Kicias, Athenian general (c. 4Y5- Proteus, wizard of the sea, 437 n.
Pythocleides, of Ceos, music-
413 B.C.), 3, 4 ff.
teacher, 119 n.
Oenoe, Attic deme or district near
the Boeotian border, 97 Satyrus, slave of Hippocrates, 97
Orpheus, legendary bard, 113, 117 Scamander, river-god in the Troad,
Orthagrras of Thebes, flute-player, 187
123 Scopas, Thessalian prince, 185
Scythians, 47, 479
raeania, in Attica, on the east side Simois, river-god in the Troad, 187
of Hymettus, 385 Simonides, of Ceos, lyric poet (556-
Paralus, son of Pericles and half- 467 B.C.), 88, 90, 117, 185, 287 n.
brother of Callias, 113, 151, 349 Solou, Athenian law-giver and poet
Patrocles, half-brother (on tlie (c. 638-555 a c), 37, 41, 197
mother's side) of Socrate.s, 471 Sophroniscus, Athenian sculptor,

Pausanias, of Ceiames (Attic deme), father of Socrates, 13, 471
115 Stephanus, son of Thucydides, 349
Pericles (c. 490-429 B.C.), 3, 12(, Stesilaus, master-at-arms, 21-3
153, 349 ; sons of, 113, 349
Persephone, 301 Tantalus, a king who betrayed the
Persians, 49 secrets of the gods and was
Phaedrus, of Myrrhinous (Attic puni.-hed after death by having
deme), friend of Plato, 113 his appetites tempted but never
Phason, brother of Hippocrates, gratified, 113-4 n.
97 Teiresias, blind soothsayer of
Pheidias, Athenian sculptor (c. 490- Thebes, 369
432B.C.), 101, 341 Tliales, of Miletus, Ionian .sage, 197
Pherecrates, Athenian comicdrama- Themistocles, Athenian statesman
tist(c. 460-390 B.C.), 149 (c. 514-449 B.C.), 349
Philippides, son of Philomelus, 113 Theognis, of Megara, poet (c. 5(0-
Philomelus, father of Philippides, 490 B.C.), 353
113 Theseus, 66 n.
Phrygian mode in music, 39 n. Thucydides, son of Melesias, leader
Phrynondas, a rogiîe, 149 n. of the aristocratic party in Athens
Pindar, of Boeolia, lyric poet (c.
(c. 490-430 B.C.), 3, 7,
349 n., 351
Thurii, Greek colony in South Italy:
520-440 B.C.), 285, 301, 4.i3 n.,
381, 437
Pittacus, Ionian sage and ruler ot
Mytiler.e in Lesbos (c. 630 b.c), Xanthias, a wrestling-master, 349
90, 185 n., 197 Xanthippus, son of Pericles and
Plataea, battle at (479 b.c.), 47-8 half-brother of Callias, 113, 151,
Polycleitus, of Argos, sculptor (c. 349
480-412 B.C.), 101 .sons of, l-il
;
Xenophon, son of Gryllus, Athenian
Polycrates, tyrant of Samos (c.
')30
soldier and writer (c. 444-356
B.C.), 335 B.C.), 385 n.
Poseidon, god of the sea and ol
horses, 487, 491
Zeus, 133 ff., 153, 489
Prodicus, of Ceos, sophist, 71, 80,
Zeuxippus (or Zeuxis), of Heraclea
90, 115 f., 179 n., 357, 499 450-
in South Italy, painter (c.
Prometheus, son of the Titan 123
370 B.C.),
lapetus, 129 f., 257
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:
Books I-IV. {2nd Imp.)

CuRTius, Q. History of Alexander. J. C. Rolfe. 2 Vols.
:
Florus. E. S. Forster and Cornelius Nepos. J. C. Rolfe.

;
{2nd Imp.)
Frontinus Stratagems and Aqueducts. C. E. Bennett
:
and M. B. McElwain. {2nd Imp.)

Fronto: Correspondence. C. R. Haines. 2 Vols. {2nd Imp.)
Gellius. J. C. Rolfe. 3 Vols. {2nd Imp.)
Horace : Odes and Epodes. C. E. Bennett. {I3th Imp.
revised.)
HoBACE Satibes, Epistues, Abs Poetica. H. R.
:
F»irclough.
{8th Imp. revised.)
Jerome Select Letters. F. A. Wright.
:
JuvEKAL AND Pehsics. G. G. Ramsav. {7th Imp.)

LivT. B. O. Foster, F. G. Moore, Evan T. Sage and A. C.
Schlesinger. 13 Vols. (VoL I 3rd Imp., Vols. II-VII,
IX-XII 2nd Imp. revised.)
LucAX. J. D. Duff. (3rd Imp.)
LccHETics, W. H. D. Rouse. {6th Imp. revised.)
Martial. W, C. A. Ker. 2 Vols. (Vol. I 5?/i /mp.. Vol. II
4th Imp. revised.)
MnfOR Latin- Poets : from Pcblilius Strcs to Rctiuus
Namatiasis, including Grattius, Calpursius Siculus,
Kemesiaxls, Aviasus, with " Aetna," " Phoenix " and
other poems. J. Wight Duff and Arnold M. Duff. (2nd
Imp.)
Ovid : The Art of Love axd otheb Poems. J. H, Mozley.
(3rd Imp.)
Ovid Fasti. Sir James G. Frazer. (2nd Imp.)
:
Ovid: Heroides AXD Amohes. Grant Showerman. {ithlmp.)

Ovid Metamorphoses. F. J. Miller. 2 Vols. (Vol. I
:
lOth Imp., Vol. II Sth Imp.)

Ovid Thistia axd Ex Ponto. .\. L. \STieeler. {2nd Imp.)
:
Petroxius. M. Heseltine ; Sexeca : Apocolocyxtosis.

W. H. D. Rouse. {Sth Imp. revised.)
Plautls. Paul Nixon. 5 Vols. (Vols. I and II 5th Imp.,
Vol. Ill 3rd Imp.. Vols. I\' and V 2nd Imp.)
Plix-y Letters.
: Melmoth's translation revised by
W. M. L. Hutchinson. 2 Vols. (Vol. I 5th Imp., VoL II
4th Imp.)
Plixy : Natcbal Histoby. H. Rackham and W. H. S.
Jones. 10 Vols. Vols. I-VI and IX. (Vol. I 3rd Imp.,
Vols. II-IV 2nd Imp.)
Pbopertius. H. E. Butler. {5th Imp.)
Prudextius. H. J. Thomson. 2 Vols. Vol. I.
QuixTiLiAX. H. E. Butler. 4 Vols. (27id Imp.)
Remaixs of Old Latix. E. H. Warmington. 4 Vols.
Vol. I (Ennius and Caecilius). Vol. II (Livius. Naevius,
Pacuvius, Accius). Vol. Ill (Lucilius, Laws of the XII
Tables). VoL IV (Archaic Inscriptions). (VoL IV 2nd
Imp.)
Sallcst. J. C. Rolfe. (3rd Imp. revised.)
ScRiPTOHES HisToniAE AuGusTAE. D. Magic 3 Vols.
(Vol. I 2nd Imp. revised.)
Seveca : ApocoLocyNTOsis. C/. Pethonius.
Seneca : Epistulae Morales. R. M. Gummere. 3 Vols.
(Vol. I 3rd Imp., Vols. II and III 2nd Imp. revised.)
Seneca Moral Essays. J. W. Basore. 3 Vols. (Vol. II
:
Srd Imp. revised. Vol. Ill 2nd Imp. revised.)

Seneca Tragedies. F. J. Miller. 2 Vols. (Vol. I 3rd
:
Imp., Vol. II 2nd Imp. revised.)

SiDONius Poems and Letters. W. B. Anderson. 2 Vols.
:
Vol. I.
SiLius Italicus. J. D. Duff. 2 Vols. (Vol. I 2nd Imp.,
Vol. II 3rd Imp.)
Statius. J. H. Mozley. 2 Vols.
Suetonius. J. C. Rolfe. 2 Vols. (Vol. I 7th Imp., Vol. II
6th Imp.)
Tacitus : Dialogus. Sir Wm, Peterson ; and Agricola
AND Germania. Maurice Hutton. {6th Imp.)
Tacitus Histories and Annals. C. H. Moore and J.
:
Jackson, 4 Vols. (Vols. I and II Srd Imp., \ols. Ill and

i\' 2nd Imp.)
Terence. John Sargeaunt. 2 Vols. (Vol. I 6th Imp., Vol.
II 5th Imp.)
Tertullian: Apologia and De Spectaculis. T. R. Glover;
MiNucius Felix. G. H, Rendull.
Valerius Flaccus. J. H. Mozley. (2nd Imp. revised.)
Vahro De Lingua Latina. R. G. Kent. 2 Vols. {2nd
:
Imp. revised.)
Velleius Paterculus and Res Gestae Divi Auoustl
F. W.Shipley.
Virgil. H. R. Fairclough. 2 Vols. (Vol. I nth Imp., Vol.
II I3th Imp. revised.)
ViTRUvius : De Ahchitectuha. F. Granger. 2 Vols. (Vol.1
27id Imp.)
GREEK AUTHORS
Achilles Tatius. S. Gaselee. (2«d Imp.)

Aeneas Tacticus, Asclepiodotus and Onasandeb. The
Illinois Greek Club. {2nd Imp.)
Aeschines. C. D. Adams. (2nd Lnp.)
Aeschylus. H. Weir Smyth. 2 Vok. (Vol. I 5th Imp^
\o\. II 4//i Imp.)
AixiPHBON, Aeliav and Philosthatus Letters. A. R.
:
Henner and F. H. Fobes.

Apollodohus. Sir James G. Frazer. 2 Vols. (2nd Imp.)
Apollokius Rhodius. R. C. Seaton. {ith Imp.)
The Apostolic Fathers. Kirsopp Lake. 2 Vols. (\'ol, I
7 th Imp., \ol. II 6fh Imp.)
Appian's Romav History. Horace WTiite. 4 Vols. (Vol. I
3rd Imp., Vols. II, III and IV 2nd Imp.)
Aratus. C/. Callimachus.
Ahistophakes. Benjamin Bickley Rogers. 3 Vols. (Vols.
I and II 5th Imp., Vol. Ill 4rth Imp.) Verse trans.
Aristotle: Art of Rhetoric. J. H. Freese. (3rd Imp.)
Aristotle Athenian- Constitution, Eudemian Ethics,
:
Virtues and \'ices. H. Rackham. (3rd Imp.)

Aristotle: Generation of Animals. A. L. Peck. (2nd
Imp.)
Aristotle: Metaphysics. H.Tredennick. 2Vols. {3rd Imp.)
Aristotle: Meteorologica. H. D. P. Lee.
Aristotle Minor Works. W. S. Hett. " On Colours,"
:
" On Things Heard," " Physiognomies," " On Plants,"

" On Marvellous Things Heard," " Mechanical Problems,"
" On Indivisible Lines," " Situations and Names of
Winds," " On Melissus, Xenophanes, and Gorgias."
Aristotle Nicomachean Ethics. H. Rackham. {5th
:
Imp. revised.)
Aristotle Oeconomica and Magna Mohalia, G. C.
:
Armstrong. (With Metaphysics, Vol. II.) (3rd Imp.)

Aristotle: On the Heavens. W. K. C. Guthrie. (2nd Imp.)
Aristotle: On the Soul, Pahva Natuhalia, On Breath.
W. S. Hett. (2nd Imp. revised.)
Aristotle Organon. H. P. Cooke and H. Tredennick.
:
3 Vols. Vol. I. (2nd Imp.)

Aristotle Parts of .Animals. A. L. Peck ; Motion and
:
Progression of Animals. E. S. Forster. (3rd Imp.)

Aristotle Physics. Rev. P. Wicksteed and F. M. Corn-
:
ford. 2 Vols. (2nd Imp.)

Aristotle: Poetics and Longinus. W. Hamilton Fyfe;
Demetrius on Style. W. Rhys Roberts. (-Uh Imp,
revised.)
Aristotle : Politics. H. Rackham. {'Uh Imp.)
Ahistotle Problems. W. S. Hett. 2 Vols. (Vol. I 2nd
:
Imp. revised.)
Aristotle: Rhetohica ad Alexandhum. H. Rackham.
(With Problems, Vol. II.)
Arrian : History of Alexander and Indica. Rev. E.
Iliffe Robson. 2 Vols, (i^nd Imp.)
Athenaeus Deipnosophistae.
: C. B. Gulick. 7 Vols.
(Vols. I, V and
VI 2nd Imp.)
St. Basil :Letters. R. J. Deferrari. 4 Vols. (2nd Imp.)
Callimachus and Lycophhon. a. W. Mair ; Ahatus.
G. R. Mair.
Clement of Alexandria. Rev. G. W. Butterworth. {2nd
Imp.)
CoLLUTHUS. Cf. OpPIAN.
Daphnis and Chloe. C/. Longus.
Demosthenes I Olynthiacs, Philippics and Minor
:
Orations I-XVII and XX. J. H. Vince.

:
Demosthenes II De Corona and De Falsa Legatione.

:
C. A. Vince and J. H. Vince. {2nd Imp. revised.)

Demosthenes III Meidias, Androtion, Ahistochates,
:
TiMOCRATES, Aristogeiton. J. H. Vincc.

Demosthenes IV-VI Private Orations and In Neaeham.
:
A. T. Murray. (Vol. IV 2nd Imp.)

Demosthenes VII Funeral Speech, Erotic Essay,
:
Exohdla and Letters. N. W. and N. J. DeWitt.

Dio Cassius Roman History. E. Cary. 9 Vols. (Vols.
:
I and II 2nd Imp.)

Dio Chrysostom. 5 Vols. \'ôls I and II. J. W. Cohoon.
Vol. III. J. W. Cohoon and H. Lamar Crosby. Vols. IV
and V. H. Lamar Crosby. (Vols. I-III 2nd Imp.)
DioDOHUs SicuLus. 12 Vols. \ ols. I-V. C. H. Oldfather.
Vol. VII. C. L. Sherman. Vol. IX. Russel M, Geer.
(Vols. I-III 2nd Imp.)
Diogenes Laertius. R. D. Hicks. 2 Vols. (Vol. I Uh
Imp., Vol. II 3rd Imp.)
DioNYSius OF Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities. Spel-
:
man's translation revised by E. Cary. 7 Vols. (Vols.

I-IV 2nd hup.)
Epictetus. W.
a. Oldfather. 2 Vols. {2nd Imp.)
Euripides. S. Way.
A. 4 Vols. (Vol. I 7th Imp., Vols.
IT and III 6th Imp., Vol. IV 5th Imp.) Verse trans.
EusEBius : Ecclesiastical History. Kirsopp Lake and
J. E. L. Oulton. 2 Vols. (Vol. I 2nd Imp., Vol. II 3rd
Imp.)
Galex: Ox the Natural Faculties. A.J. Brock. {3rd Imp.)
The Greek Axthology. W. R. Paton. 5 Vols. (Vols. I
and II 4th Imp., Vols. Ill and IV 3rd Imp., Vol. ^' 2nd
Imp.)
The Greek Bucolic Poets (Theocritus, Biox, Moschus).
J. M. Edmonds. {7th Imp. revised.)
Greek Elegy and Iambus with the Axacreoxtea. J. M.
Edmonds. 2 Vols. (Vol. I 2nd Imp.)
Greek Mathematical Works. Ivor Thomas. 2 Vols.
{2nd Imp.)
Herodes. Cf. Theophhastus : Characters.
Herodotus. A. D. Godlev. 4 Vols. (Vols. I-III 4/A /mp..
Vol. IV 3rd Imp.)
HEsroD ASD the Homeric Hyjiss. H, G. Evelyn WTiite.
{7th Imp. revised and enlarged.)
Hippocrates akd the Fhagmexts of Heracleitus. W. H. S.
Jones and E. T. Withington. 4 Vols. (Vols. I and II
3rd Imp., Vols. Ill and IV 2nd Imp.)
HosrEH Iliad. A. T. Murray. 2 Vols. {6th Imp.)
:
HosfER Odyssey. A. T. Murray. 2 Vols. {7th Imp.)

:
Isaeus. E. S. Forster. (2nd Imp.)

IsocRATES. George Norlin and LaRue Van Hook. 3 Vols.
St. Johs Damasceve Barlaam and Ioasaph. Rev. G. R.
:
Woodward and Harold Mattingly. {2nd Imp. revised.)

JosEPHUs. H. St. J. Thackeray and Ralph Marcus. 9 Vols.
Vols. I-VII. (Vol. V 3rd Imp., Vols. I and VI 2nd Imp.)
JuLiAV. Wilmer Cave Wright. 3 Vols. (Vol. I 2nd Imp.,
Vol. II 3rd Imp.)
LoxGus Daphxis and Chloe.
: Thornley's translation
revised by J. M. Edmonds and Pahthexius. S. Gaselee.
;
(3rd Imp.)
LuciAX. A. M. Harmon. 8 Vols. Vols. I-V. (Vols. I, II
and IV 2nd Imp., Vol. Ill 3rd Imp.}
I,YCOPHHOX. C/. CaLLIMACHUS.
Lyra Ghaeca. J. M. Edmonds. 3 Vols. (Vol. I 4th Imp.,
Vols. II and III 3rd Imp.)
Lysias. W. R. M. Lamb. {2nd Imp.)
Manetho. W. G. Waddell ; Ptolemy : Tetrabiblo3. F. E,
Robbins. {2nd Imp.)
Marcus Aubeuus. C. R. Haines. (3rd Imp. revised.)
Menandeh. F. G. Allinson. {3rd Imp. revised.)
Minor Attic Orators. 2 Vols. Vol. I (Antiphon, Ando-
cides). K. J. Maidment.
NoNNOs : DioNYSiACA. W. H. D. Rouse. 3 Vols. (Vol.
Ill 2nd Imp.)
Oppian, Colluthus, Tryphiodohus. a. W. Mair.
Papyri. Non-Litehary Selections. A. S. Hunt and C. C.
Edgar. 2 Vols. (Vol. I 2nd Imp.) Literary Selections.
Vol. I (Poetry). D. L. Page. (3rd Imp.)
Parthenius. C/. Longus.
Pausanias Description of Greece. \V. H. S. Jones. 5
:
Vols, and Companion Vol. arranged by R. E. Wycherley.

(Vols. I and III 2nd Imp.)
PiHLo. 12 Vols. Vols. I-V. F. H. Colson and Rev. G. H.
Whitaker Vols. VI-IX. F. H. Colson. (Vols. I, II, V,
;
VI and VII 2nd Imp., Vol. IV 3rd Imp. revised.)

Philostratus The Life of Apollonius of Tyana. F. C.
:
Conybeare. 2 Vols. (Vol. I -ith Imp., Vol. II 3rd Imp.)

Philostratus: Imagines; Callisthatus : Descriptions.
A. Fairbanks.
Philostratus and Eunapius Lives of the Sophists. :
Wilmer Cave Wright. {2nd Imp.)

Pindar. Sir J. E. Sandys. {7th Imp. revised.)
Plato I Euthyphho, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, Phaedbos.
:
H. N. Fowler. {9th Imp.)

Plato II Theaetetus and Sophist. H. N. Fowler. (4</i
:
Imp.)
Plato III Statesman, Philebus. H. N. Fowler
: Ion. ;
W. R. M, Lamb. {4.(h Imp.)

Plato I\' Laches, Protagoras, Meno, Euthydemus.
:
W. R. M. Lamb. (3rd Imp. revised.)

Plato V Lysis, Symposium, Gohgias. W. R. M. Lamb.
:
{4'th Imp. revised.)

Plato VI Cratylus, Parmenides, Greater Hippias,
:
Lesser Hippias. H. N. Fowler. (3rd Imp.)

Plato \'II : Timaeus, Critias, Clitopho, Menexenus, Epi-
stulae. Rev. R. G. Bury. (3rd Imp.)
Plato VI 1 1 Charmides, Alcibiades, Hippahchus, The
:
Lovers, Theages, Minos and Epinomis. W. R. M. Lamb.

Plato Laws. Rev. R. G. Bury. 2 Vols. (3rd Imp.)
:
Plato Republic. Paul Shorey. 2 Vols. (Vol. I 4,th Imp.,

:
Vol. II 3rd Imp.)
8
:

Pldtabch MoHALiA. 14 Vols. Vols. I-V. F. C. Babbitt
:
Vol. VI. W.
C. Helmbold Vol. X. H. N. Fowler. (Vols.
;
I, III and X 2nd Imp.)

PuTTAHCH The Parallel Lives. B. Perrin. 11 \'ols.
:
(Vols. I, II, III and VII 3rd Imp., Vols. IV, VI, VIII-Xl
2nd Imp.)
PoLYBius. W. R. Paton. 6 Vols.
Phocopius History OF THE Wars.
: H. B. Dewing. 7 Vols.
(Vol. I 2nd Imp.)
Ptolemy : Tetbabiblos. C/. Manetho.
QuixTUS Smyrxaeus. a. S. Way. {2nd Imp.) Verse trans.
Sextus Empihicus. Rev. R. G. Bury. 4 Vols. (Vols. I and
III 2nd Imp.)
Sophocles. F. Storr. 2 Vols. (Vol. I 9th Imp., VoL II 6th
Imp.) Verse trans.
Strabo Geography. Horace L. Jones. 8 Vols. (Vols. I
:
and VIII 3rd Imp., Vols. II, V and VI 2nd Imp.)

Theophhastus Characters. J. M. Edmonds
: Hehodes, ;
etc. A. D. Knox. (2nd Imp.)

Theophrastus Exquihy into Plants. Sir Arthur Hort,
:
2 Vols. (2nd Imp.)

Thucydides. C. F. Smith. 4 Vols. (Vol. I 3rd Imp., Vols.
II-IV 2nd Imp. revised.)
Tryphiodohus. Cf. Oppian.
Xenophon Cybopaedia. Walter Miller. 2 Vols. (Vol. I
:
2nd Imp., Vol. II 3rd Imp.)

Xenophon Hellexica, Axabasis, Apology, and Syiupo-
:
siuH. C. L. Brownson and O. J. Todd. 3 Vols. (\'ols. 1

and III 3rd/fnp., Vol. II 4^/i /mp.)
Xenophon : Memorabilia and Oeconomicus. E. C. Mar-
chant. (2nd Imp.)
Xenophon Scbipta Minora. E. C. Marchant. {2nd Imp.)
:
VOLUMES IN PREPARATION
GREEK AITTHORS
Aristotle : De Mundo, etc D. Furley and E. S. Forster.

Aristotle : History of Animals. A. L. Peck.
Flotixus. a. H. Armstrong.
9
LATIN AUTHORS
St. Augustine : City of God.

[Cicero :] Ad Herevnium. H. Caplan.
Cicero : Pro Sestio, In Vatinium, Pro Caelfo. De Pro-
viNciis CoNSULARiBus, Pro Balbo. J. H. Frcesc and R.
Gardner.
Phaedbus and other Fabulists. B. E. Perry.
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This book belongs to

t E. CAPPS, PH.D., LL.D. t W. H. D. ROUSE, Lrrr.D.

L. A. POST, M^. E. H. WARMINGTON, m.a., f.b.hist.soc.

Printed in Great Britain

came from the " mimes " of the Syracusan Sophron,

This was more promising : but it led nowhere

aim. Disappointed of an assurance that the universe

the soul. For some years before the master's death

not unhke what we have of the King of Laputa. Yet

the pretensions of the regular sophists, with whom

Laches and Lysis, show the manner in which he

prising that his city, in the effort of recovering her

must choose to ensue it. Further, this knowledge

atic coui-se of question and answer. He also be-

After the death of Socrates in 399> Plato spent

be perpetuated by continuing and expanding the

yoke of a systematic training. What that training

eliciting it. The method, as Plato soon perceived,

rapture over its certainty, which led him to picture

come to the front of his mind when he began to

sopher, through a series of ancillary sciences, for

knowledge is to be attained by a careful practice

If what we know is a single permanent law under

Socratic teaching is indicated by the literary form,

habituation to abstract thought will qualify rather

however, have come down to us in a much less

we may conjecture a late-found interest in the

them clearly and fairly is to \vin the privilege of

T. Gomperz : The Greek Thinkers, vols. ii. and iii. Murray,

Macmillan, 2nd ed., 1901,

„ ,, Plato's Doctrine of Ideas. Clarendon Press,

Plato and the Old Academy (Cambridge Companion to

The following are important editions :

J. Adam The Republic. 2 vols. Camb. Univ. Press, 1902

W. H.Thompson: The Phaedrus. Bell, 1868.

,, ,, The Timaeus. Macmillan, 1888.

„ ,, The Sojthistes aTid Politicus. Clarendon Press,

modestly disclaiming, in his usual manner, any

courage (192) and Nicias, working from a defini-

tion which he has previously heard from Socrates,

throughout is rather on the process of the Socratic

and invariability of the true objects of knowledge.

TA TOT AIAAOrOT nPOSOHA

p. 178 AT. TeOeaade fiev top avhpa iJLa)(6[ji€VOV iv onXois,

Tjyrjcranevoi Kal Ikouovs yvcovai Kal yvovras aTrXdis

LYS. You have seen the performance of the man

TToXXd Kal KaXd epya e;^et Xeyeiv rrpos rovs veavi-

rrjaSe rrjs TToXecos' 'qp.erepa 8' avrdjv epya ovS-

point the moral of it all to these young people,

* fiupdKiov is applied to youths from 15 to 21.

E Kol TOVTO TO fxddrjfxa, otl kuXov ett] tu) vico fxadelv

Vfieis idedaaade eTnSetKvvfievov, ko-t^ e/ce'Aeue

avvdeaTds, dfia 8e avfx^ovXovs re /cat kolvcjvov?,

CTratveaai piddiqp.a vicp dvhpl rf iTTCT-qSevfia, /cat

Tideadai. TavTa p.ev ovv KaXdjs Xeyeis, co AvaC-

come to be worthy of the names they bear. Now

fxevov, OTTOV ri eari rcbv tolovtcov (Lv crv t,rjr€ls

TTepl.TOVs veovs rj pidOrjfia 'q eTTLT-qSevfia KaXov.