Cotard Syndrome - Dhamma Wheel

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boris
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Cotard Syndrome
by boris Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:55 am
P
o
Thomas
Metzinger :
s
t

Obviously, any good future philosophical theory of mind should be able to incorporate the
existence denial exhibited by Cotard subjects as an important phenomenological constraint,
one to be satisfied by its own conceptual proposals. There exists a whole range of neurological
disorders characterized by an unawareness of specific deficits following brain injuries, all of
them falsifying the Cartesian notion of epistemic transparency for phenomenal selfconsciousness, i.e. the idea that one cannot be wrong about the contents of ones own mind,
that unnoticed errors are impossible because the light of knowledge shines through and through
the self. In pure and extreme versions of the Cotard delusion we are confronted with a
particularly interesting example of this type of representational configuration: Patients may
explicitly state not only that they are dead, but also that they dont exist at all. In other
words, something that seems an a priori impossibility on logical groundsa conscious
subject truthfully denying its own existenceturns out to be a phenomenological reality.
And phenomenology has to be taken serious. In this case the first lesson to be drawn is this:
You can be fully conscious and still truthfully describe the content of your own phenomenal
self-experience as non-existence. In other words, there are actual, nomologically
possible representational configurations in the human brain, which lead truthful subjects
into logically incoherent autophenomenological reports.

I think with some corrections Cotard syndrome can be freed from incoherency, and become
logically sound.
1 I can assert my existence or I can deny it, but in order to do either I must exist; for it is I
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=21411&p=303953[13/8/2558 0:07:52]

Cotard Syndrome - Dhamma Wheel

myself who assert it or deny it. Any attempt I may make to abolish my existence tacitly
confirms it; for it is my existence that I am seeking to abolish. Nanavira Thera
This is the problem. It can be avoided by replacement of negation of my existence, by
statement, that I cannot localize myself in time and space. While for most people it still
sounds crazy, nevertheless from philosophical side, more, from Dhamma point of view it can
be asserted without danger.
2 Perhaps to insist that I am dead should be change, for I never was born.
After these modifications, I think it is very difficult to recognize difference between Cotard
syndrome, and let say a non-returner. But maybe even we don't have to talk about
modification; while in many cases Cotard Syndrome is associated with other severe mental
sickness, some cases are different, patient apart of his basic condition, seems to be normal,
and even ready to discuss his case from philosophical point of view. Unfortunately, financial
limitations does not allowed me to say more here, professional medical books are expensive,
and all my knowledge base on material available on the net.
One remark is necessary, in order to avoid confusion, we must be able recognize difference
between individual - puggala, and person - sakkaya. Without this even with suggested
modifications, Cotard Syndrome will remain for philosophers logically incoherent.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space
and time.
Nicols Gmez Dvila
o
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Re: Cotard Syndrome

by cooran Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:05 am
P
o known as Cotard Delusion:
Also
s
t

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotard_delusion

cooran
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---The trouble is that you think you have time-----Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe-----It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

o
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Re: Cotard Syndrome

by Mkoll Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:33 am
P
o is a mental illness associated with
This
s
t

brain damage.

Wikipedia wrote:
Mkoll
Posts: 4842
Joined: Wed Dec 05,
2012 6:55 pm
Location: California, USA

Cotard's syndrome usually is encountered in people afflicted with a psychosis (e.g.

schizophrenia), neurological illness, mental illness, clinical depression, derealization, and with
migraine headache.[11] The medical literature indicate that the occurrence of Cotard's delusion
is associated with lesions in the parietal lobe. As such, the Cotard-delusion patient presents a
greater incidence of brain atrophy especially of the median frontal lobe than do the people

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Cotard Syndrome - Dhamma Wheel

in the control groups.

~~~

boris wrote:

After these modifications, I think it is very difficult to recognize difference between Cotard
syndrome, and let say a non-returner.

Have you actually met someone with Cotard's Syndrome? Have you actually met a non-returner?
I'd wager the answer to both is no. And even if you had, you'd be making a hasty generalization
based on a tiny sample size. So it appears your claim is groundless.
Honestly, I don't understand the point of comparing mental illness and/or the results of brain
damage to Buddhist concepts.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
o
p
boris
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Re: Cotard Syndrome

by boris Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:15 pm
P
o
s
Mkoll wrote:
t

Honestly, I don't understand the point of comparing mental illness and/or the results of brain
damage to Buddhist concepts.

Yes, that is the problem, you don't understand. I am interested in one point, absence of
subject, cessation of person -sakkaya. And as I said, there are cases of this syndrome which are
not associated with other symptoms of mental illness, they seem to be quite clever guys, able
to lead philosophical discussion which deal with their experience - this I know from extracts
which are not in English, so I can't quote them here.
So, thank you avuso, that you have expressed your opinion. If you are not interested in such
investigations - absence of subject, you don't have to take part in discussion, and continue to
be active in such topic as music and so on. You like talk about such things, fine. But do not
disturb discussion of others. Of course, if you can bring some positive input in to topic, you are
welcome. Or perhaps no one is interested, then I let this topic die. Why should subjects which
participate in this forum to be interested in their cessation?
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space
and time.
Nicols Gmez Dvila
o
p

Re: Cotard Syndrome

by daverupa Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:51 pm
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o
s
boris wrote:
t

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=21411&p=303953[13/8/2558 0:07:52]

Cotard Syndrome - Dhamma Wheel

I think with some corrections Cotard syndrome can be freed from incoherency, and become
logically sound.

daverupa
Posts: 5317
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011
6:58 pm

I think Cotard + corrections = non-Cotard. Also, about half of these folk experience feelings of
immortality; I think it's just a disorder, not a peep at nonreturnership.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit,
development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way
that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience,
harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one
protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
o
p

boris
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Re: Cotard Syndrome

by boris Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:55 pm
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o
s
daverupa wrote:
t

boris wrote:

I think with some corrections Cotard syndrome can be freed from incoherency, and become
logically sound.

I think Cotard + corrections = non-Cotard. Also, about half of these folk experience feelings of
immortality; I think it's just a disorder, not a peep at nonreturnership.

1) Are you really sure, that there are no cases of Cotard suggested by me? From what I have
read, in Cotard syndrome like schizophrenia individual cases may be quite different, and I
believe if someone is talking about his inability to localize himself in time and space, is very
likely that he will be classified under Cotard syndrome.
2) So according to you feeling of immortality and experience of non-returner are contradictory?
But if your vision of Dhamma is such, may I ask how do you see relation between deathless
element and non-returner? I must admit, that if your first objection has some justification, in
the second case you use the same argument against similarity which I without hesitation can
use to prove similarity of both cases.
Anyway, it shows, that it's good idea to start this topic, because it looks like there is profound
difference in our understanding of Dhamma. And while I don't think that just one discussion
can level such difference, at least can give us some food for thought.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space
and time.
Nicols Gmez Dvila
o
p

Re: Cotard Syndrome

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=21411&p=303953[13/8/2558 0:07:52]

Cotard Syndrome - Dhamma Wheel

by daverupa Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:53 pm
P
o
s
boris wrote:
t

I must admit, that if your first objection has some justification, in the second case you use the
same argument against similarity which I without hesitation can use to prove similarity of both
cases.

daverupa
Posts: 5317
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011
6:58 pm

Cotard + corrections = non-Cotard. This is a simple matter of definitions. It might be Cotardesque, Cotard-like, but it wouldn't be Cotard and using Cotard as the foundational reference
would be a choice worth examining the motives for.
Additionally, feeling that one is dead is only one component of the disease; have a look at a
more detailed examination of this & related disorders.
(That link may not work since I have University access to papers and so forth; the cite is:
Delusions of Death and Immortality: A Consequence of Misplaced Being in Cotard Patients
Garry Young
Philosophy, Psychiatry, & Psychology, Volume 19, Number 2, June
2012, pp. 127-140
2012 by The Johns Hopkins University Press)
This was the first objection. In the second case I implied that a feeling of personal immortality
was anathema to nonreturnership. You seem to wonder about how the Deathless Element
would be experienced, hinting perhaps that this could count as a feeling of personal
immortality. But I don't see how this could be.
Perhaps I don't understand what you mean.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit,
development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way
that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience,
harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one
protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
o
p

Re: Cotard Syndrome

by Mkoll Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:48 pm
P
o
s
boris wrote:
t

Mkoll wrote:

Mkoll
Posts: 4842
Joined: Wed Dec 05,
2012 6:55 pm
Location: California, USA

Honestly, I don't understand the point of comparing mental illness and/or the results of
brain damage to Buddhist concepts.

Yes, that is the problem, you don't understand. I am interested in one point, absence of subject,
cessation of person -sakkaya. And as I said, there are cases of this syndrome which are not

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=21411&p=303953[13/8/2558 0:07:52]

Cotard Syndrome - Dhamma Wheel

associated with other symptoms of mental illness, they seem to be quite clever guys, able to
lead philosophical discussion which deal with their experience - this I know from extracts which
are not in English, so I can't quote them here.
So, thank you avuso, that you have expressed your opinion. If you are not interested in such
investigations - absence of subject, you don't have to take part in discussion, and continue to be
active in such topic as music and so on. You like talk about such things, fine. But do not disturb
discussion of others. Of course, if you can bring some positive input in to topic, you are
welcome. Or perhaps no one is interested, then I let this topic die. Why should subjects which
participate in this forum to be interested in their cessation?

You're right, I don't understand the benefits of this venture of drawing comparisons between
psychosis and Buddhist spiritual attainments. I think that it will just make you and those who
actually take this seriously with you more confused, not less. If you want to think this way to
yourself, fine, no one's stopping you and I've nothing to say. But if you're going to talk about it
publicly, I'm going to post my opinion by warning people not to be lead astray by delusional
comparisons of Dhamma and psychosis.
~~~

daverupa wrote:
boris wrote:

I must admit, that if your first objection has some justification, in the second case you use
the same argument against similarity which I without hesitation can use to prove similarity
of both cases.

Cotard + corrections = non-Cotard. This is a simple matter of definitions. It might be Cotardesque, Cotard-like, but it wouldn't be Cotard and using Cotard as the foundational reference
would be a choice worth examining the motives for.

[my emphasis added]

This, boris.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
o
p
boris
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Re: Cotard Syndrome

by boris Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:13 pm
P
o
s
daverupa wrote:
t

You seem to wonder about how the Deathless Element would be experienced, hinting perhaps
that this could count as a feeling of personal immortality. But I don't see how this could be.
Perhaps I don't understand what you mean.

You quote as an authority psychiatry which base on puthujjana knowledge, and for what my
answer can be, that one claiming that he is unable to localize himself in time and space would
be described as a case of mental illness ... But let it be, let us stick to second objection: yes

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Cotard Syndrome - Dhamma Wheel

you don't understand on what ground we are trying to lead this discussion - that is on
impersonal level, while you by arbitrary decision shift discussion on sakkaya level by naming
feeling of immortality here as a personal But let us come to details. In order to be personal
things has to be identified as a self, but exactly lack of self is our starting point here. If
someone cannot localize himself in time and space, it is so exactly because there is no
embodiment, no self-identification.
So you take for granted, that someone who say that he does not exist is a case of mental
sickness. But it could be just the case of lack of self-identification, making improper attempt
to describe his own experience, falling by this into logical contradiction. But it does mean only
that he is unskilled in ways of description of experience, not that he does not experience
certain things (here cessation of sakkya-ditthi).
But case suggested by me is free from such contradiction, and as I see it it's quite normal for
him to be certain of his immortality, and to name this immortality personal delusion is wrong.
Such experience is personal that is individual, particular to one specific puggala, but such
experience is possible exactly because of lack personal self-identifications - sakkaya-ditthi.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space
and time.
Nicols Gmez Dvila
o
p
chownah
Posts: 3666
Joined: Wed Aug 12,
2009 2:19 pm

Re: Cotard Syndrome

by chownah Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:53 am
P
o
Knowing
the miserable state of psychiatric diagnosis it is not
s
single
cotard
syndrome and that it is just a similarity that is
t

at all unlikely that there is no

noted among certain people and
that cotard is used as a catchall for anyone who presents with certain characteristics. Given
this, it is not at all unlikely that an enlightened person could be classified as cotard by some
psychiatrist. This says very little about what cotard is or what the enlightened person is.....it
just reflects that some psychiatrist made certain observations and based on them resorted to
name calling.
chownah

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