Puriri Change Lab

April 1-3, 2008 Dear Participants,

Proceedings
This document outlines the proceedings from the Puriri Change
Lab held in Auckland from April 1-3, 2008.
This document reflects the proceedings as we were best able to
capture them and it is necessarily an incomplete record. Many
critical discussions take place in private settings or outside of
formal sessions.
We hope, however, that the following document will be useful in
your ongoing work.
If you have any feedback or comments we look forward to hear-
ing from you.

Generon Reos, LLC

Thank you,
One Broadway, 14th Floor LeAnne Grillo and Jeff Barnum
Cambridge, MA 02142
Special thanks to Sarah Milne and Erin Mansell of Framework,
who provided notes on the proceedings and the photos from
which this document was produced.

May 2008
 1:50pm Opening

Introduction and Welcome, Process Description, Debate

After the welcoming Powhiri and meal and an introduction and
waiata, Tui Taurua Peihopa presented a baby Puriri tree that
she planted with this journey began for her last November,
explaining the different parts of the tree and their symbolism.
Tarn Crewes shared a metaphor from the kitchen to describe
the process of bringing everyone together (combining ingredi-

Day One ents) in order to create a new whole. LeAnne Grillo and Jeff
Barnum introduced themselves as facilitators. They opened
with a “Cynics and Believers” debate in order to surface the
viewpoints participants held about the potential of this work-
shop.

April 1, 2008 From the Cynics:

“We can’t forget ‘what if.’”
“All words no actions.”
“We have done this before.”
“Why do we need people from overseas – we are the people that
this effects.”
“Is it going to be real or is it just going to be for managers?”
“We’ve heard it all before – there’s nothing here that I can’t get
on the internet.”
“Where is the evidence for your approach?”
“Is this the best place to put our money? Should we not put
it into something that is already out in there (in the commu-
nity)?”

From the Believers

“Systems need to be changed – there either needs to be more
involvement from consumers or there needs to be more needs
being met.”
“This will be built on values and beliefs.”
“This is a unique way to look at new ideas.”
“This is trying something new with the hope and belief that it
will work.”
“This workshop will create awareness and trust.”
“It is always valuable to have other peoples’ opinions (espe-
cially opposite opinions) heard so that other ideas and perspec-
tives can be seen.”
“We hold hope for this workshop as we hold hope for the
people we work with.”
“This will be a validating experience.”
Jeff then talked about the U-Process and Change Lab methodolo-
gies, because of questions regarding its efficacy, asked LeAnne to
talk about another of their longstanding projects, the Sustainable
Food Lab.
LeAnne explained that while it was a different project, the Food Lab
is an inspiring example of how conflicted interests can collaborate
using the U-Process approach as a framework.
Some critical points about the process are:
There are three phases: Sensing, Presencing, Creating. Sensing is
being able to see the system with new eyes, and from others’ points
of view. Presencing in becoming present to our highest future
potential as individuals and as a collective, and making personal
commitments to act from a space of this potential. Creating is the
working together to evolve the current reality into a way of working
together that is better suited to the whole.

Agenda Review Framing Question

Tuesday Wednesday Thursday

1 Welcome and introductions 9 Co-sensing 9 Check in The framing question at the heart of each Change
Check in Learning journey prep Co-creating Lab. It can evolve as needed, but gives everyone a
Cynics and believers Depart on learning journeys Crystalisation focal point for structuring the rest of the co-creative
Overview of methodology 12 Return from journeys, debrief Design studio process. The P Management Team, the Lab’s
Agenda review 1 Lunch Initiative synthesis conveners, drafted the question for this lab before
Ground rules Synthesis Action Plans beginning the workshop.
2 Co-sensing Co-presencing 1 Close
Introduction to the Studio Solo
Dialogue interviews Debrief How can we capture and embody
Levels of perspective Co-creating
6 Dinner Design studio
Close Close hope and unity as a richly
diverse community of peers and
Ground Rules
supporters, in which a consumer
ºº Be Present governed organisation can be
ºº Speak respectfully
ºº Ask questions developed, thrive and serve?
ºº There is choice here - no imposed commitment
ºº Make yourself comfortable
3:20pm Introduction to the Studio

Cafe tables: Death of a Matador, by Picasso

Everyone was asked to sit with the people with whom they began this
journey and to whom they typically went to discuss possible forms for
the new CGO. Jeff presented a short film of Picasso painting “Death of
a Matador” (1957). He posed the question: We’re looking at Picasso in
order to learn something about the creative process; what did you see?

Some of the comments and questions:

“He continually changed the way that he wanted to convey the idea.”
“He had a basic idea to begin with, but didn’t know what the end product
was going to look like.”
“He started with the background, then the foreground, then he filled in
the details.”
“We are basing our interpretation of Picasso’s painting on our emotions;
actually, we don’t know what emotions he had while painting. We can
only know what emotions his work stirs in us.”
“Which came first? The name of the painting, or the idea for the paint-
ing? How was the idea of the painting born? Was it there in the begin-
ning, or did it emerge as he painted?”

Jeff played the film again, coaching participants to look at specific parts
of the painting, especially the bull’s head. He called this the “sacred cow”
and said that in creative work, it’s often the case that a key part of the
work around which the composition is created is the very part that must
be given up in order for the work to reach its full potential.

Comments after it was played the second time were:

“We have done the sketches.”

“Our organisation will go through many changes as we have seen the
painting go through changes – even when it looked finished, there were a
lot of changes made after that point. The work is in constant evolution.”

The DVD shown was The Mystery of Picasso, distributed by Image Entertainment.
Model building

Participants emptied their pockets and handbags, and gathered various

other small, everyday objects, placing them all in the center of their tables.
They were asked to build models of their visions of the future CGO. The
coaching for the exercise followed the examples seen inthe Picasso film:
What are your sacred cows - the essential things around which you have built
your model, which, when brought into a collaborative space, will inevitably
change, just as the bull’s head changed?
When they were finished, they were given yellow cards, on which they were
asked to describe the main idea of their model. This exercise was designed
to get a first round of ideas about the CGO into the common space - and to
allow participants to see their “sacred cows.”
Groups chose a representative, who presented the main ideas of their mod-
els one at a time, each addressing the group from his or her table.
5:50pm Interviews and Journaling

The debrief sessions following the Introduction to the Studio focused on expanding the
“Sensing” part of the Change Lab. Using the models as a starting point for understand-
ing how the participants see themselves and the future CGO, the facilitators suggested
that participants “dig down” into the background, the formative ideas, of the models, and
of the ideas they embody.
This would be a process of interviewing each other in a particular way, journaling about
their learning, and exploring their thoughts and core beliefs.

Dialogue Interviews

People paired up - ideally with people they didn’t know so well - and interviewed each
other. They were asked to suspend their judgement of what was said and encouraged to
listen “alongside” their partner--to put themselves in their partner’s shoes. Afterwards,
they journaled:
ºº What did I hear?
ºº What did I notice about my hearing and listening?
ºº Were there any “ah-hah” or learning moments for me in the interview?
Given the idea that the only tool to change a system is ourselves (if we are not to act
violently), participants reflected on their own experience in the effort to create a CGO,
noting what particular strengths and passions are with them from their pasts as they move
forward in the effort. The facilitators asked participants to reflect and write on the fol-
lowing question: What personal experiences have I had in the effort to create a new CGO
that speak of this system’s current state of hope, unity, and diversity, with reference to the
framing question?
LeAnne and Jeff walked around the room answering questions of groups and individuals
as they wrote, and then asked groups to share with each other: Do you see any patterns
here? Are there experiences that a number of people have, and/or that seem to repeat
themselves? In general, many people showed that indeed, they were seeing a broad array
of common experiences in this regard.
Events, Structures, Mental Models

Jeff and LeAnne now asked

the participants to think about
their experiences as headlines in
a newspaper. These headlines
would describe “events” that
for them said something sig-
nificant about the state of their
current system with regard to
the framing question. Groups
generated flipcharts of these
“headlines” as shown in the
accompanying images.

Going now one layer deeper into systems thinking, LeAnne

and Jeff then coached the group to consider the “structures”
beneath the events and experiences they had just described.
Structures are policies, power dynamics, physical layouts and
architectures - anything that sets the pattern for the way things
get done and the way people relate to each other.
Beneath structures are mindsets or mental models. Mental
models were defined as core beliefs, assumptions, cherished
ideas, motives, and strongly held values at the roots of why we
think and behave in particular ways. The participants explored
both of these layers of their system, writing out key compo-
nents of their mental models on large hexagonal stickies, and
hanging them together on the wall. With this gesture, said the
facilitators, mental models are “suspended” - as if hanging from
a string in front of us. The coaching was to begin to see the
mental models at work in the system.
 12:30pm Voices from the Field
Upon their return from the Learning Journeys, the group assembled in the main

Day Two
meeting room in a circle, standing. One at a time, participants stepped forward,
and quoted a person they had met on their Learning Journeys, speaking in the first
person. These quotes were statements that they found striking, statements that
told them about how the other organizations work, and statements that inspired.
Through this exercise, they brought the larger system into the room with them.

“We learned something about the importance of language along the way – and
April 2, 2008 changed from Foundation for the Blind to Foundation of the Blind.”
“Every person in our organisation has something to do with the ways the organisa-
tion runs.”
“We do things this way because it is what’s right for the children.”
“The main reason that we are successful is that we narrow our focus on our ser-
Learning Journeys vices.”
“We deal with conflict by looking at our core values.”
As John LeCarre said, “The desk is a dangerous place “We have 180 employees and 200 volunteers, and have a waiting list for volunteers.
from which to view the world.” Learning Journeys give We treat them the same as we treat employees.”
the group a chance to experientially see their system “We sought to change our community’s view of what we do.”
through other people’s eyes. Participants signed up for “At first, we placed all these restrictions on the kids. Then we asked the doctors,
Learning Journeys to various locations and departed who said they could do anything – so we changed our thinking about how we work
after some brief instruction and preparation. Again with the children!”
the group was asked to suspend judgement and see the “We run some programmes so that people put their hands on their hearts and oth-
places they were going to visit with “fresh eyes.” ers so that they put them in their pockets.”
“Our users are called members.”
The documentation team went with only one of the “We have 1000 staff, and what binds us together is that we know we all share values
learning journeys, but received notes from all, which and passion.”
are included in this document as an appendix. “We deliberately avoid government funding as it gives us more freedom.”
“I started this because there was no support for me – I needed to find what would
support me.”
“We would love to come to your opening. We would love to help!
“We are the guardians of your treasures.”
“Maori and Pacific Islanders are interested in a lot more than just things about
Maori and Pacific Islanders.”
“We wanted to make a place where people felt comfortable and to which they want
to return.”
“Our structure is made up of trustees and kaumatua.”
“We base services on need.”
“We rely on small amount of funding from tax payers.”
“We have to do a lot of fundraising to fill in the shortfall.”
“We serve 85% of NZ population and we need these structures to support us.”
“Nothing is more important to us than our core values.”
“We publish a newsletter that is nothing to do with work and is all about our staff.”
After this exercise, participants journaled on questions that are living for them now.
1:40pm Seeing and Mapping Our Mental Models
Sitting in groups of three and starting from the previous day’s mental models exercise, participants reviewed their recent journal entries and sought to bring
forward any further cherished ideas, beliefs, assumptions, fears, and dogmas, they see active in the effort to create a new CGO. They wrote short phrases
describing these, read them aloud to the group, and placed them on a large white wall, facing the wall as an audience faces a theater.

Several members of the group agreed to help cluster the hexagons This exercise culminated in a few minutes of silent relfection and journaling,
by theme and labels were created for each cluster (on green hexa- with an optional “gallery walk” - a chance to get up close to the hexagons
gons), representing an overarching theme. They read, from left to and study them. The question for reflection was:
right, as follows.

Which of these mental models is operative in me?

“We need to view mental health and addiction with new eyes.”
“The structure must be consistent with who we are.”
“Mental health and AOD have different needs.”
“Peer support is beneficial and possible.”
“If we don’t compete, we won’t survive.” Which of these is shaping the way I think, the way
“I believe: less talk, more action.”
“We aren’t in control.” I engage, and the way I interact with others?
“Our own fear will hold us back.”
“We have doubts.”
“Our diversity and uniqueness are strengths.”
Letting Go, Letting Come
Participants had 50 minutes to walk through the grounds of the hotel, and were encouraged to take no cell phones, no distractions, and no notebooks - noth-
ing to distract. This was meant to be time alone and in silence, letting go of anxieties and the need to find a resolution for the challenge at hand. This is
“walking away from the mess,” a “structured sleep.”

Upon returning, participants shared regarding what is becoming clear to them - with attention to the idea that individuals are the primary tool for changing
social realities. Some of the insights were as follows.

“What is important to me is making sure that there is diversity – no matter “The image of a pendulum comes to me. There are so many different
what our culture is, we should have the opportunity to stand without be- opinions and ideas. There are lots of similarities within the mental health
ing judged.” and AOD and we need to work together.”

“This process has made me understand more of what we are looking for “Being out in the world alone is fearful – fear is the mind killer. We all
in this CGO – and how we can make a difference.” have our own fears but the joining of our minds here has allowed us to
form a nucleus, which comforts me = - united we stand alone we fall.”
“I have identified strongly with fear – I had to find my path in this sector.”
“At my best I will challenge authority and be there for my people, at my
“I feel strongly about working with different cultures and the movement worst I feel fear – that I may loose some of what I’ve got if I do say what
in New Zealand at the moment – with what is going on within this sector. I stand for. Supporting people to believe in their selves – challenge the
I want to help and contribute.” stereotypes have a voice – that’s what I want to do – to be there for my
people. I need to do that so I feel that I am alive. I know I can do that so
“For me, the key word is creativity – the Picasso clip said a lot to me – a I want to be able to give that.”
lot of my ideas pop up outside work.”
“Wearing the hat of the CEO of the org that has a contract in this CGO
“Customer focus, respect, integrity, compassion – I look in myself, and see – I have realised that I am driven by fear of the possible failure – more
my own biases. The journey starts with myself – with what can I offer to so than I realised. This has interrupted my productivity. In order to be
this process.” productive I have to recognise the components of the fear that I am expe-
rienced to allow others to help me with me with that.”
“What stands out for me is the importance of networking and getting dif-
ferent people together. I am also frustrated that this has not already been “Personal growth has become intertwined with this project. This project
done. There are many hurdles to get through – and I’m just wanting to has bought both the best and worst out of me. Stress anxiety and frustra-
get it underway and not being able to get it done now.” tion. My journey is about being more tolerant and more understanding –
this is what I have to bring to this project.”
“It may take longer to find the clarity about what this is. There are many
people that can contribute to the CGO that aren’t in it at the moment.” “There is a need for reassurance – we can give each other that. Part of
the reassurance is due to the ownership. No one has the ownership is
“This is not the end; it’s only the beginning – there is a purpose.” both a mental health and AOD project. We need to remember and reas-
sure others of this. Each is not a tag-on to this project – they are a joint
“The building of the Picasso painting had a profound effect on me – my venture. So we are equally fearful. It will be owned by both parts of the
life’s journey is to be here at this time and be a part of this journey. Trust- sector.”
ing each one of us that we can do this and we can do it in a safe environ-
ment. Everyone’s journey has been different and everyone’s journey may “I thought there was going to be nothing in the room when we came
not continue with this journey. I feel at peace with this project.” back. I wasn’t going to speak but I am. There are 2 emotions in this
world – love and fear. We have had a chance to voice these fears. Fear
is false evidence appearing real. If this fear is false there is another side our work will be emergent to us. I brought assumptions with me on how
of love that will come through. I know we can all get on the side of love to run organisations, and I need to let those beliefs go – needing leaders,
and move together with love. What blocks people is the fear and what for example.”
unblock people is moving through the fear with love.”
“I am both sides of the scale here. I am trying to educate myself and I
“What is it you need from me? To be part of this CGO? I had a few am grateful to be here. Mental and ADA go well together; I am proof. I
revelations; one is that my alcoholism has ruined both of my marriages. hope that my kids wont go through what I went through, but I would like
My marriages were great: when I praised my partner and when I got loved to think that there will be somewhere that they can go should they need
back – that’s what I feel I can offer…I can be one with this organisation. help with the same issues.”
I truly want the very best for this organisation.”
“A few things have surprised me over the last few days…there are some
“What I see is that this looks beautiful because of our diversity. I am a cultural differences that need to be worked out. I have a sense of over-
drop of water in the ocean. I bring myself fully into this project. We can responsibility and I need to create a balance between my life and my re-
choose to either pick it up and run with it or drop it and run away. I feel sponsibility for part of this project. Life balance is something I will have
strong in this room.” to think about. I am fearful of what may result, but it is important to get
the basics right at the beginning.”
“I feel strong now. I want better things for myself. We all deserve the
best and we have the ability to change this and make this the best for this.” “I am split down the middle, part burocrat and part radical. If this is to
be owned collectively, we need to listen to each other. My fear is what I
“Everyone could be a consumer at some stage in his or her life – I feel have to bringI’m afraid that my experience and knowledge will be per-
like there is a lot of history in this room. I am finding it hard to let go of ceived as overbearing. If you want it you can have it, and if you don’t I
my preconceived ideas. We can’t be afraid of failure – we can learn from am fine with that.”
failure… there are options and we can choose. Consumers should have
the power to choose which way through the system they want to go.”

“There are only 2 kinds of people in the world those who have a diagno-
sis and those who haven’t got one yet. If we sat down and wrote down
al the skills, knowledge and experiences it would be amazing. We are all
to the point where we can make a commitment to work together to get
the maximum benefit. I am praying that we will have jurisdiction over
the growth and the development. I have some thing to share and I feel I
have a responsibility to share it. Both AOD and mental health have a lot
to teach each other – if we can’t get the resources then we need to get out
there and find some. I want to share as much as I can.”

“My walk created many thoughts….we can have a small focus, we can
be small; but if we are effective and efficient then we can be of great
service.”

“I have full faith that we have all the skills and compassion to make this
work. Any masterpiece takes time – we have the capacity to make this
happen.”

“Being labelled as a consumer, I feel really constricted. We don’t sub-

discriminate. We don’t label ourselves in different ways like other sectors.
Will we discriminate ourselves by doing this?”

“This process of creating this organisation is unique, so the way we do

Day Three
April 3, 2008

9am Check In, Reflect, Move Forward

Participants learned of the death of a close colleague, and held a minute of silence in his
honor. The reflections continued around the theme of freedom as a basis for healing,
growth, and moving forward: the space between a stimulus and a response. Participants
journlaed on their own highest future potential, and on what they have energy to do in the
efforts to create a new CGO, given everything they had experienced so far.

Initiative Seeds

What do you personally have energy to do? Participants wrote their answers to this
question in short statements on blue cards, and, standing in a circle, shared them with
the group. People listened for “allies” - those inclined in a similar direction, even if they
don’t agree on specific action steps and priorities. Allies then banded together in order to
establish working groups.
Participants then returned to the Studio in order to model initiatives.
The Studio

The final session of the workshop was held in the Studio. Bringing to bear all that participants
had learned and experienced, they were asked to model their new intiatives from natural ma-
terials. The groups took turns coaching each other by asking questions to help facilitate new
insights. Afterwards, the initiative groups had the chance to revise their models. Several of the
models changed dramatically and were made stronger through this process.
The studio concluded with a presentation of initaitive ideas using the models shown on an
LCD projector for a reference point. Moving from the metaphor of the models to the tangible
activities they represented, teams wrote down the main features of their intiatives, including
concept, purpose, and people needed to realize the effort.

Moving Forward: Cultivation

These ideas are seeds for a future effort involving all collected stakeholders and their con-
stituencies. Their strength lies in their diversity and their novelty, and they need good soil and
care in order to be born and grow. To this end, the group held an afternoon session with the
framing questions “How can we cultivate the seeds we’ve planted? What is needed from us as
a group?” The session was somewhat squeezed in terms of time, and concluded with a listing
of who needs what and who can offer what. This “needs/offers” exchange was documented
to be taken forward by the project management team.
Appendix: Learning Journeys •
other
All new members get mentors to walk alongside them
• 50% of staff are members (visually impaired)
• And you can’t use your blindness as an excuse
St John • The mix brings a rich of talents
• Some members don’t want to be a part of the organisation just to receive
What stood out? its services.
• Criteria for membership can be a problem – the ? and experience are not
• Diversity the same
• Clarity, identification and commitment to core values • The foundation has many different funding sources
• Core values • This was an inspiring visit to an organisation that embodies evolution –
• Structure keeping well being in place they are still continually refining what they do
• On the wall was a poster showing a golf course:
What struck you? • “Commitment - The distance to success is measured by you own
DRIVE”
• Welcoming and knowledgeable • Another poster on the wall:
• Diversity threading core values blend paid and voluntary • “Working together – coming together is a beginning. Keeping together is
• Recognising conflict progress. Working together is a success”
• Role of history in foundation order of St John
Barnardo’s
• Judgement of crusades
• Order of St John (closed sense i.e. Masons) • Introductions
• Positive and negatives • Overview of CGO project
• Constantly evolving • Acknowledgement of the project from Beth (Barnardo’s)
• 120 years still there, resource, structure and sense of purpose • Few years ago came up with ½ values: Integrity / Respect / Passion /
• Evolving from community essential in rural Success. Barnardo’s has been functioning approx. 30 years. Document
• How much have to rely on fund raising taken to all staff re: values. Needed buy in from staff. Reflecting back
• Balance of business sales of First Aid Kits – service not core business  the values needed good values. Since being in place has utilised the values
we do this to make up ‘shortfall’ when supporting/working with each other.
• ‘offender’ for someone who did not reflect core values • Discussion about Barnardo’s nation wide and it began – history – of the
• Definitely wanted to have 2 people in room, 1 Communication Manager service. Dr Barnardo working with the homeless. Began in Mangere for
• Assumption 2 young young mothers. Flats in Mangere.
• ? did not want negative feedback going to DHB • Struggle in some communities
• Good reputation over the years
Foundation of the Blind • Restructured often. Have 5 Management units around Auckland. Have
area managers and team leaders
• We were surprised and amazed at the similarities between our journey and • Often Family support / supervised visits
theirs. • Barnardo’s have managers who look after the teams. Monthly meetings
• The importance of words: from Foundation “for” the Blind to Foundation • Communication can be hard
“of ” the Blind (2002) • Strengths in formal support/supervision
• It’s all about the members!! (Consumer = member) • Good mix of staff
• “The Foundation is the people” • Funding comes from govt for family support services i.e. Plunket, MH,
• The happiness of the members is important and District Health. Work with client 1:1. Negotiated rates/hours.
• Members can phone the chief executive Develop relationships
• Members CHOOSE what they want • Domestic violence work funding sought from Govt.
• Members VOTE for the board and 3 out of 9 are members • Roll over contracts may put $$ in other areas
• Members tell staff what to do BUT this is new and it is hard to motivate • CYF drive the needs for various areas
people to vote • Manage supervised visits between parents at day care centre
• Members form community committees and provide peer support to each
• Fundraising money assists the day care centre Liberties – take ownership. This is what we will do, stick to it, commit to
• Barnardo’s reviews funding annually nationwide via Regional Manager purpose, narrow focus
• Have history/data that back up and support financial assistance etc. • Continuity – commit to 2 years – don’t denote
through the lengths of time Barnardo’s have been around. • Managing fake mentality
• What can we do or service are going to support a CGO? Why reinvent • Nurturing leadership from grass roots
the wheel? • Natural being in service – less
• Focus on parenting/teenage etc • Seed funders – govt take over funding
• Opened teen mothers group – via approached Barnardo’s • Potential linkages
• S.W.O.T analysis – making it rough for children. Strengths / Weaknesses • Branding Consultation
• Core business – priority • Similarity under label
• Core values, beliefs, principals. Vision • Volunteer board
• Strategic plan, goals driven by local group, annual plan • Community participation
• Work with age 0-17 year olds • Every consumer quizzed – accountable to
• Conflict with PORES other service • When people start jump on the same boat “one team”
• Audited by EROS • Peer support
• Passion of the staff keeps them motivated. • Piercing clarity of role
• To do “get the passion, vision, core values, governance, leadership, heart • Rewarding volunteers, training
of the matter.

What is our core business?

• Work alongside services that are already working

• What’s right for the consumer/us?
• Have the passion = having the heart
• Not to turn anyone away. Non judgemental
• Links back to the children – the visions – the core business
• Is it looking at the vision, core values.
• Govt dictates the funding as well as pilot projects
• Money sought with backing from research
• Need buy in from the staff. Encouraging people
• Knowing the values and living with them
• Communication hard due to distance/regions
• Gone through structures and found something that works, enhancing and
enabling communication

Canteen

• Apprehensive, personal loss, social

• Gaps in system
• New Experiences – T.V
• Thinking, arriving on time
• Xmas cards / bandana, contract
• Inspirational
• Are having fun not I’ll have some fun.
• Looking forward
• Continuity of funding important
• Negative – life withering – pot plants
• Positive – huge amount to structure. Independent of Govt and cannot ?