Do you recall that student back in middle school, frantically waving his hand trying to get the teacher to call on him? That’s how I feel when I read the following sort of news story:
As the US economy hums along month after month, minting hundreds of thousands of new jobs and confounding experts who had warned of an imminent downturn, some on Wall Street are starting to entertain a fringe economic theory.
What if, they ask, all those interest-rate hikes the past two years are actually boosting the economy? In other words, maybe the economy isn’t booming despite higher rates but rather because of them.
It’s an idea so radical that in mainstream academic and financial circles, it borders on heresy — the sort of thing that in the past only Turkey’s populist president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, or the most zealous disciples of Modern Monetary Theory would dare utter publicly.
Most mainstream economists view MMT as a crackpot theory, and they are probably right. But there’s another “MMT” that actually can explain these recent trends:
But the new converts — along with a handful who confess to being at least curious about the idea — say the economic evidence is becoming impossible to ignore. By some key gauges — GDP, unemployment, corporate profits — the expansion now is as strong or even stronger than it was when the Federal Reserve first began lifting rates.
That MMT is called “market monetarist theory”. And unlike the other MMT, it is perfectly consistent with mainstream economic theory. So why does the press do so many stories about the fringe MMT, and almost none about the more reasonable MMT? I suspect it is because market monetarism doesn’t give easy answers. Journalists wish to know how to interpret rising interest rates, and we respond that one should not even try to interpret rising interest rates. To do so would be to engage in the fallacy of reasoning from a price change.
In the fringe MMT, there is no natural rate of interest. Tomorrow, the Fed could wave a magic wand and set nominal interest rates at zero, without impacting inflation. It’s simple, easy to explain.
In contrast, we emphasize that central banks usually respond to changes in the natural interest rate. They are roughly as likely to overreact as they are to underreact to a rise in the natural rate, and thus we should not expect to see any clear correlation between rising rates and changes in aggregate demand. And we don’t.
In fairness, the trendy new Wall Street theory does have an “it depends” aspect:
This is, the contrarians argue, because the jump in benchmark rates from 0% to over 5% is providing Americans with a significant stream of income from their bond investments and savings accounts for the first time in two decades. . . .
In a typical rate-hiking cycle, the additional spending from this group isn’t nearly enough to match the drop in demand from those who stop borrowing money. That’s what causes the classic Fed-induced downturn (and corresponding decline in inflation).
The fallacy here is pretty obvious. In terms of the effect on income, interest payments are always a zero sum game. One person pays money and another person receives money. It’s true that bondholders are now getting a larger flow of interest income from the government, but that’s always true of higher interest rates (and was even more true in the early 1980s, when much higher interest rates preceded two recessions.)
In contrast, the market monetarist explanation doesn’t rely on any implausible assumptions. Rather we simply assume that the natural (or equilibrium) interest rate is hard to estimate (a generally accepted claim), and that the Fed will attempt to move interest rate targets to an appropriate level (another generally accepted claim), and that an unbiased central bank will make errors in both directions. Thus, rising interest rates should have no reliable impact on aggregate demand.
But that’s so much less interesting to journalists than the ideas of MMTers, Turkish political leaders and Wall Street traders dabbling in folk economics.
PS. Those on the other extreme from MMTers are equally off base:
To be clear, the vast bulk of economists and investors still firmly believe in the age-old principle that higher rates choke off growth. As evidence of this, they point to rising delinquencies on credit cards and auto loans and to the fact that job growth, while still robust, has slowed.
That’s equivalent to saying the vast bulk of economists and investors engage in reasoning from a price change. Of course job growth has slowed, as unemployment has fallen to the natural rate. Unlike in 2020-21, we no longer have a vast reserve army of unemployment to hire from. But job growth is still extremely high for a period of sub-4% unemployment. The economy is still overheated. We are still waiting for the tight money policy to begin.
HT: Michael Darda
READER COMMENTS
Kenneth Duda
Apr 16 2024 at 8:34pm
Scott, I both enjoy and hate reading your posts. I enjoy learning so much about economics from them, but it’s so depressing how little good economic thought penetrates the mainstream. I frequently have conversations with sophisticated non-economist friends, who start with variants of the conventional wisdom (“higher rates choke off growth” sort of thinking), and if they let me, I get started — and 45 minutes later, they’re just nodding, and thinking, and wondering how it could be that everything they hear about economics from the mainstream media is so naive.
Anyway, thanks for what you do.
-Ken
Ahmed Fares
Apr 16 2024 at 9:46pm
The natural rate of interest is zero!
Jon Murphy
Apr 16 2024 at 10:49pm
Good stuff Scott. In my classes, I always ask an exam question designed to see who is reasoning from a price change. It’s always a little frustrating to see so many who continue to make the mistake even when told I’m doing this.
The question involves a grocery worker who witnesses both price rise and quantity demanded rise. This worker declares the Law of Demand incorrect. I ask my students to analyze his claim and explain. A good many of them will say “he is correct. The Law of Demand has been proven incorrect by the empirical data.” They miss the point that empirical data actually verified the theory. A secondary lesson is to avoid overturning well-established theory based on loose evidence.
Modern Monetary Theory is making the same mistake. Why throw out the baby with the bathwater when neither are bad?
Thomas L Hutcheson
Apr 17 2024 at 5:53am
How should the Fed adjust one or more of it’s monetary policy instruments to bring PCE inflation to its optimal rate? Or NGDP growth to its optimal rate?
Pointing out the errors of newspaper pundits is shooting fish in a barrel and fish too small for a decent plate of fish and chips. 🙂
Scott Sumner
Apr 17 2024 at 11:16am
It’s not possible to determine where to set rates until you determine the goal. The Fed’s been very vague about its goals—what does FAIT actually mean? Do they want inflation to average 2%, or something higher?
It also depends on the forward guidance, and the pace of asset sales.
I’d prefer to set rates at a level where the market expected 4% NGDP growth.
Thomas L Hutcheson
Apr 17 2024 at 5:25pm
I take the Fed at its word. It believes that 2% PCE inflation going forward is optimal. [That is hypothesis that has not been falsified.]
Since I do not think the Fed can know in advance what settings of its policy instruments it will think are best for achieving that goal, it should not speculate about what those setting might be.
Scott Sumner
Apr 18 2024 at 3:58pm
“I take the Fed at its word.”
Which word? Average inflation targeting?
Jose Pablo
Apr 17 2024 at 10:19am
Unlike in 2020-21, we no longer have a vast reserve army of unemployment to hire from.
We do have one. We just don’t let it get legally into the country.
vince
Apr 17 2024 at 12:53pm
What do you propose–no borders? No vetting?
Jose Pablo
Apr 17 2024 at 6:41pm
Not very much into borders. These arbitrary lines in the sand do more harm than good. They do cloud people’s minds!*
Any vetting you want to do will work. No problem with that.
Bear in mind, though, that there are around 100 million criminal record holders in the US (around 1 in 3) and we let most of them roam free.
And also, that the US has a murder rate of 6.4. Among the highest in the world for a developed country. We sure should warn the people who want to get in about this fact! After all, they are going to be overrepresented among the victims.
* Just but one example of this. A country of 3,7 million square miles could, very well, start WWIII (which could, very easily be “nuclear”) just to move its border 36 thousand square miles further away. Less than 1% gain. Isn’t that the very definition of “insanity”? Ah, borders … what a childishness!
vince
Apr 17 2024 at 11:37pm
With no borders, there’s no nation. With no nation, who vets?
Jose Pablo
Apr 18 2024 at 7:55am
Yes! … it is all advantages!
A 5,500 million strong workforce. Without artificial barriers to find the most productive use for their human capital.
The gains would be staggering!!
Anonymous
Apr 18 2024 at 3:55pm
The losses would be staggering as we descend into anarchy. I can hear your cries now: “anarchy would be great!” Well, maybe so, but what’s the probability on that? What would the chance of catastrophic failure have to be for you to still want to try it?
Jose Pablo
Apr 18 2024 at 9:57pm
Anonymous, we are doomed anyway with our present nationalist-controlled system
https://thebulletin.org/doomsday-clock/
Time to try a different mindset. We have nothing to lose. Well, maybe 90 seconds.
Jose Pablo
Apr 18 2024 at 10:30pm
And more than any other thing, all these “my country is greater than yours” or “my people’s greatness should be restored” or “Allah is greater than Yaveh” (or the other way around, I never remember) or all the idiocies of this kind, are just so incredibly boring. Almost subhuman from an intellectual point of view.
The fact that defining whether or not Ukrainians and Russians are historically “a unity” or deciding whose this tiny island “belongs” to, can put us on the brink of extinction should be enough to ban nationalism (and borders) from the face of the Earth.
And we even will get individuals living whenever they please the most, as a very nice positive side effect.
Vincent P
Apr 17 2024 at 7:21pm
It makes sense that there is no natural interest rate, but I am curious. Is there a real vs. nominal interest rate in the same way that there are nominal and real wages? For instance, when the money supply increases, my understanding is that the interest rate drops in the short term (I hope I have that right). Would that be the real interest rate, while the nominal rate is sticky and doesn’t move? Just a student here trying to understand. Love the posts–learning so much. Thank you!
Scott Sumner
Apr 18 2024 at 4:00pm
There’s no consistent relationship between the money supply and interest rates (real or nominal.) It’s best not to focus on interest rates—they are very misleading.
vince
Apr 18 2024 at 9:35pm
Yet hasn’t monetary policy sadly become synonymous with interest rate policy?
Scott H.
Apr 17 2024 at 8:09pm
Modern Monetary Theory is the flat earth theory of economics. What are the key components of flat earth theory?
1.) A coherent model for the theory is never offered. The game plan is to throw out some basic concepts that never meld together, and then try to change the subject to items from #2.
2.) Attack real theories based on singular observations and isolated concepts that most laypersons aren’t prepared to argue off the cuff.
The advantage that Modern Monetary Theorists have over flat earthers is that flat earthers can only attack difficult to explain observations. MMTers can also attack unpopular observations! (Like MMTers fighting for 2% unemployment while mainstream economists are content to let the unemployed suffer.)
Jim Glass
Apr 18 2024 at 1:57am
Ah, and I was there at its creation. (Age can have benefits as long as memory lasts.)
MMT was conceived, such as it was, in the era before Twitter, social media and blogs, back in the late 1990s early 2000s, in usenet’s sci.econ newsgroup. This was a regular discussion home to a moderate number of professional and academic economists, informed economics amateurs, interested economics novices, pure amateurs, and bomb throwers of various ilks. (A small taste of what social media and Twitter would become.)
Warren had a sports car business and managed investment accounts. He was guru to a number of instinctively-reject-all-authorities “the system is corrupt” types. They were *very very very* impressed by the fact that money can be created from nothing! Just keystrokes!!!!
Warren’s big professional conclusion was that it is impossible for a government with fiat money to default on its debt because it always has more free money to pay with. So he pushed his investors to buy falling (cheap!) Russian bonds. Russia defaulted. His investors lost a publicly reported $850 million. Warren said he hadn’t been wrong, Russia just hadn’t acted like it should have with its fiat money (forgetting the meaning of “impossible”). The WaPo reported on this later when MMT became a thing, and he made the same claim to it. The Russians did him wrong. I’m sure it’s in the WaPo back issue files if you want to look it up.
Gee, I haven’t looked at my old newsgroup archives in a dozen years, it almost makes me feel middle aged again.
Factual refutation never daunting true believers, Warren and Minions remained true to the ‘money just appears’ creed. “You’re saying the supply curve for money is horizontal?” “Yes!” … Ergo: Central banks can’t cause inflation by money printing. The Weimar, Confederate, post-WW2 Hungarian hyperinflations happened because the people were poor with no resources, so they had high demand for money. (Post WW2 rest-of-central Europe didn’t because of reasons) … as modern money comes from nothing, its one true ‘backing’ that gives it value is the need to use it to pay taxes … and of course, deficits are savings, surpluses are debt, war is peace, freed — ooops, sorry … Warren: “So next time you hear ‘where will the money for Social Security come from’ go ahead and tell them – it’s just data entry. It comes from the same place as your score at the bowling alley comes from.”
I don’t want to be unfair, this was the baby crawling around era. They called all this “New Chartalism”. Later, somewhere, a few people with econ PhDs got interested and modernized (parts of it) with some 1940s Abba Lerner ‘functional finance’ ideas, I think, I dunno, I could never get two people to give me the same straight answer about anything so I stopped paying attention.
IMHO, the smartest person in the whole movement was whoever changed the name to Modern Monetary Theory. Could it ever have become so popular as “New Chartalism”? That was the best brand marketing move since Pemberton’s French Wine Coca Nerve Tonic changed to Coca-Cola.
And I was there at the very beginning. The next best thing to being in the bar knocking down drinks with L. Ron Hubbard when he said: “I’m going to start a religion”.
Ahmed Fares
Apr 18 2024 at 2:32am
A (very) oblique history of MMT, Part II: (Co-Authors, Mosler etc)
Ahmed Fares
Apr 18 2024 at 2:43am
A bit more to the story…
Jim Glass
Apr 19 2024 at 3:04am
Yup, Warren treated that trip to Italy like it was Moses going up the mountain and coming down with the divine word that fiat currency default is impossible. And Italy didn’t default! Proving to the faithful that Russia couldn’t either. Wait … what?
Indeed. With his clients not losing that $850 mil in Russia. And Americans today not being secure as we are in the knowledge that the funds needed to pay our future Social Security benefits will “come from the same place as your score at the bowling alley comes from.”
Don’t be modest, Brother. Amen.
Ahmed Fares
Apr 19 2024 at 4:37am
Greenspan: “There is nothing to prevent the government from creating as much money as it wants.”
spencer
Apr 18 2024 at 10:52am
https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2024/04/rates-related-to-monetary-policy/
Interest is the price of credit. The price of money is the reciprocal of the price level.
Comments are closed.