Talk:Seoul

Archived discussions Talk:Seoul/Archive 2003-2012

Incheon Airport

I believe that Incheon airport is of a significant size, and like Singapore Changi Airport deserves its own page. Please comment here if you disagree. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:48, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I understand that the page for Yeongjong Island was considered the source for Incheon airport, however I believe it is more logical for the airport to have its own separate entry. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:01, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Defining City Borders

There is a note on the front page for this. Is anybody watching this since the wikitravel migration? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 14:08, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

The district discussion tag was added nine months ago by Globe-Trotter . But the last comment here concerning the districts of Seoul was posted in 2010, so there's hardly any "discussion" going on. Besides Seoul is already divided into districts. I'll remove the tag. Ypsilon (talk) 19:47, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

One thing that needs to be done, though, is to move specific sights, restaurants and such from this article into the appropriate districts. To do that one should preferably be familiar with the destination, so could you Andrewssi2 maybe consider the task? Ypsilon (talk) 20:27, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I have some knowledge of Seoul (having lived there for a month), so I could try and give this a go. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:59, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Seoul might be divided into some districts, but its division does not encompass the entire city. We don't have a lot of people here familiar with the city, so if you could draw up a district division that would be great. Globe-trotter (talk) 03:36, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Seoul definitely needs a cleanup! There are 9 districts defined, of which 6 have articles. I will proceed to move listings down into them. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:38, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Count me in as someone who's interested in cleaning up and writing more stuff about Seoul. I read this way back when it was still a single article and thought it was excellent but sorely needed districts and a map. The districts do need to cover the whole city, though I don't have any good ideas about that. Your work has been great, and if Ypsilon joins in that would be cool. -- torty3 (talk) 01:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Great! I think Seoul (like Busan) may need a combination of distinct districts and general areas. Gangnam definitely is district that should have its own article, although the south Western part of the city probably should have a combined article. I'll also start looking at creating maps.

As per Busan, I will create a 'first cut' of regions here on the talk page to be improved over the next few days. Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Looks good at a first glance. ϒpsilon (talk) 13:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I like it. It's usually the outer districts that are pesky, what happens to the southern districts like Dongjak-gu and Gwanak-gu? -- torty3 (talk) 11:18, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the list below doesn't cover every single official district of Seoul, however the missing ones do not exactly have a lot going for them. (for the most part simply apartment blocks). Is it OK to go with the list below and add the others as and when they become relevant? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 11:06, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I get what you're saying. I'm trying to remember where the fish market I visited is - looks like Dongjak-gu? For the core six that's pretty much set and anything is better than what the article is now. -- torty3 (talk)

Good catch! I've been there many times but for some reason I had thought it was on the north side. Anyway yes it should be in Dongjak, and I think an article for 'South Seoul' covering DongJak, Gwanak and Seocho is needed. Andrewssi2 (talk) 11:26, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Also I think two sections of Regions (See Beijing for an example of multiple regions) would suit Seoul better. this would be North and South of the Han River:

Why not? The district list is already divided into two sections like that. On the other hand, seven districts aren't that many (London's district list could use a little organizing...). When it comes to the "South", "West" and "North" articles, I think we could go ahead and create them too, even if they wouldn't have much content as for now. ϒpsilon (talk) 12:12, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Wow, London is complicated! Also, conceptually London and Seoul are similar in that both a split in the middle, east to west, by a major river as well as being of a somewhat similar size. How does the update above look? Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:25, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I think it looks quite good. Anyone volunteering to draw the map? ϒpsilon (talk) 13:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Just to be open about my process, I have now begun to move all individual listings from Seoul down to all the district articles that exist. This will leave a few listings that have no associated article, and that may better inform which remaining articles need to be created. Please bear with me, it shouldn't take too long. Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:37, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Although not an expert cartographer, I have some map experience. Check out Busan, Haeundae and Lantau to see examples of my work. All I need to do is work out the transparency overlay to make up the individual districts. Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:37, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

It's OK, we're not in a hurry :). You probably know the city better and there will just be edit conflicts if many people edit the article at the same time.

A district map is a little bit different compared to the maps you've made; those are better for navigation. Meanwhile I can give the map a try. Basically I plan to use the current map as a base, color the districts according to the division above, make it more or less template compliant and perhaps add some roads. This will be my fifth map ever so it will probably be decent but not perfect (check out Helsinki's district maps made from scratch in a week with no Inkscape experience :P, plus Northern and Southern Finland from the Finland map). ϒpsilon (talk) 10:44, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm actually in China right now, which means I can't see most WikiMedia images and therefore can't comment. :( I'll be spending sometime outside the PRC next week so hopefully I can engage the map discussion then. Andrewssi2 (talk) 11:31, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

OK. I'm drawing the map now. Should we put Yeongdeungpo and Geumcheon in West or South? If West is short of content, I suggest putting them there (it’s easy to change it later if needed). ϒpsilon (talk) 12:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Ops, I think I'm late since you already started to draw the map but let me know if I can be of any assistance. --Saqib (talk) 13:00, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm thinking Yeongdeungpo needs it own article (being the 'Manhatten of Seoul'). Geumcheon should be South Seoul. Andrewssi2 (talk) 13:27, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Just looked at the Helsinki map (special method) and it looks great. Someone has done something similar with Shanghai. Andrewssi2 (talk) 13:40, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Saqib for the help offer and Andrew for the compliment ^_^. I'll probably have the map finished in an hour or two. And if it looks too ugly, Saqib can download it from Commons and tidy it up. ϒpsilon (talk) 13:57, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

By the way, the colors in the region list are up to you. We can change to whatever looks good on the map. Andrewssi2 (talk) 14:17, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

And here's the map. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:00, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Great job! I've made some changes to map. --Saqib (talk) 16:25, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm Korean and live in Seoul now. It's already really well divided. Wonderful. So I hope to add some more infos. This is my suggestions. --거북이 (talk) 16:30, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

1. Jongno (종로) : old city center
2. Jung (중) : old city urban area
3. Seodaemun-Mapo (서대문/마포) : univ and nightlife
4. Yongsan (용산) + Yeongdeungpo : Yeongdeungpo and Yongsan is linked with subway line 1 and there are many related mood.
5. Gangnam (강남) + Seocho (서초) : most rich people live in this two district.
6. South : DongJak, Gwanak, Geumcheon : southern mountain area
7. West : Gangseo, Yangcheon and Guro : bedtown
8. North : Gangbuk, Dobong and Nowon, Eunpyeong : northern mountain area
9. East : Songpa & Gangdon : bedtown

Yeah. 거북이's suggestion is basically right. But Gangdon should be Gangdong, as 강동. And some areas are missing; in North, it lacks Jungnang (중랑). I don't have much time to find out what's missing, but there are something missing. I also had lived in Seoul. Jytim (talk) 17:23, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Saqib. 거북이 and Jytim, "welcome on board". Let's wait for Andrewssi2's comment until we put the map on the article itself. I actually thought Gangdon without a g sounded a bit odd. As for now the North article includes a whole lot of districts: Eunpyeong, Seongbuk, Gangbuk, Dobong, Nowon, Jungnang, Dongdaemun, Seongdong, and Gwangjin. I'm not familiar with this part of the city, having been only to the more central "touristy" parts of the city. I'll change the map if Saqib didn't already. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:48, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

And, of course, let's also let Andrewssi2 have a look at Geobugi's suggestion for division. User:Torty3 is maybe also interested. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:05, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

OK great. I'm good with the suggestion that Gangnam + Seocho should go together and the districts in South, North, West and East look right.

I'm not so sure about putting Yeongdeungpo and Yongsan together however. Yongsan is to the north of the river and Yeongdeung is to the south which makes a big geographical separation in my mind. (i.e. you can't walk between them). Additionally Yongsan has a lot of content already.

Please see updates below and awaiting further comments :) Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:11, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

There is a really wide river between Yeongdeungpo and Yongsan but many buses and subway are there also. ^^ Noryangjin and Yongsan subway stations are right next in subway no.1. So the life style is related and similar Yeongdeungpo and Yongsan. And there are less contents in Yeongdeungpo and Yongsan I think. Just corrected suggestions. --거북이 (talk) 05:51, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks 거북이. My problem is just that the Han river is REALLY wide. Much wider than the Thames in London, the Seine river in Paris or the Huangpu river in Shanghai. In these cities the river does represent a distinct boundary. There may be great transport connections, however it still feels very strange to me. Can anyone else comment on this?

Also it isn't a big problem if Yeongdeungpo has a low amount of content. Yansan already has enough to be a standalone article. Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:35, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't find Yansan on the Seoul map? I remember the Han river almost as a narrow lake. It is wider than I thought - over a kilometer! Ten times wider than Seine, four times wider than Thames and even double the width of Daugava in Riga which is very wide. The Yongsan article looks quite OK already. If we have enough content to make a separate article for Yeongdeungpo it should absolutely also have its own article. I would say, let's create an article for Yeongdeungpo and if it's turns out really hard to find content for the article we could merge it with some neighboring district. ϒpsilon (talk) 09:50, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Apologies, I meant 'Yongsan' not 'Yansan'.

I didn't realize the Han was more than a kilometer wide! I think that in itself would constitute a separate destination for a traveler to the city, cultural similarities aside. I'm OK to create appropriate content for Yeongdeungpo. The close transport connections can be referred to in the respective 'Understand' sections. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:10, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

OK, but I don't recommend Yeongdeungpo for a one day trip. Hard to find travel contents. Yongsan is good for shopping or visiting museum. So I combined Yeongdeungpo and Guro. But still I don't want to recommend for visitors. :-) --거북이 (talk) 13:51, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi talk, thanks I am OK with your suggestion. Please bear in mind that creating an article for a city area is not the same as making a recommendation. For example, a foreigner might be visiting a friend in that area and wants to know what is around. One question: You say that the fish market is there, however the address I have is in Nodeul-ro, Dongjak-gu (동작구 노들로). Is this incorrect? Andrewssi2 (talk) 14:39, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

yes Nodeul-ro, Dongjak-gu. I thought it is Yeongdeungpo-gu, it's wrong. thanks for correcting. --거북이 (talk) 15:22, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

1. Jongno (종로) : old city center
2. Jung (중) : old city urban area
3. Seodaemun-Mapo (서대문/마포) : univ and nightlife
4. Yongsan (용산) : Electronics market, National Central Museum and Itaewon.
5. Gangnam (강남) + Seocho (서초) : most rich people live in this two district.
6. Yeongdeungpo + Guro : fish market, stock trading, venture company cluster.
7. South : DongJak, Gwanak, Geumcheon : southern mountain area
8. West : Gangseo, Yangcheon and Guro : bedtown
9. North : Gangbuk, Dobong and Nowon, Eunpyeong : northern mountain area
10. Songpa & Gangdon : bedtown
11. East : Dongdaemun, Jungrang, Gwangjin, Seongdong : bedtown and some grand markets

OK updated the list below. Can you please verify?

Another WV question: When putting two districts together, should the page name convention be Songpa-Gangdong ? Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Don't know about any official WV standard for naming districts. In London's articles, when many districts are combined they seem to be written with a dash between. On the other hand "&" clearly states that it is two different (administrative) districts. Here, I think we should decide upon one standard; either "A and B", "A & B" or "A-B", otherwise things are going to look confusing. And let's decide upon the final names and colours before editing the map again. ϒpsilon (talk) 05:28, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I checked once again. Very fine~ --거북이 (talk) 07:57, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

OK, we use format "A-B" because Seoul/Seodaemun-Mapo is already using it.

ϒpsilon please feel free to use this as the final list, and do adjust colors as you see fit. Thanks! Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:42, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

And now I've updated the map! ϒpsilon (talk) 16:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Looks awesome! Many thanks Ypsilon, let's put this up right away.

아름다워요~(beautiful!) --거북이 (talk) 10:07, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Seoul

Jongno (종로) The Joseon-era historical core of the city with the famous Joseon Palace, Gyeongbokgung. Bukchon has beautiful traditional Korean house and Insa-dong has the largest antiques market street in Seoul. Cheongyecheon has a renovated stream and park that runs through the heart of the downtown area.

Jung (중) This district makes up the other half of the historic core as well as the shopping districts if Myeongdong and Namdaemun Market. This area contains Seoul Station and Namsan Mountain, with the Seoul Tower at its summit.

Seodaemun-Mapo (서대문/마포) These two districts lie immediately west of Jongro and Jung, and contain dozens of universities and colleges. As such, this area is home to some of Seoul's most active nightlife districts: Hongdae (홍대) and Sinchon (신촌).

Yongsan (용산) Yongsan is home to the US Army Military Base as well as one of the largest electronics markets in the world, Yongsan Electronics Market. This is also where you'll find Itaewon (이태원), perhaps the most culturally diverse area in Korea and home to dozens of restaurants featuring cuisine from the world over, numerous shops selling everything from custom-tailored suits to antiques, and several Western pubs and bars.

Yeongdeungpo-Guro Covering a large island in the Han as well as an area on the south side, this is often referred to as the 'Manhattan of Seoul'. Guro is one of the IT venture company clusters.

Gangnam (강남) & Seocho (서초) Recently famed for 'Gangnam Style', this affluent area is the glitzy center of modern Seoul, home to hundreds of glass and steel skyscrapers, neon billboards, and some of the most expensive real estate in the country.

Songpa-Gangdong A residential district east of Gangnam where you'll find Lotte World, Olympic Park, Seoul (Jamsil) Sports Complex, and the Sincheon nightlife district. Currently defined in WV as Seoul/Songpa

North Northern area including Gangbuk, Dobong, Eunpyeong and Nowon. Mt. Bukhansan and Mt. Dobongsan area.

South Area south of the Han river including DongJak, Gwanak and Geumcheon. This is where you can enjoy fresh seafood at the huge Noryangjin fish market.

East Dongdaemun, Jungrang, Gwangjin, Seongdong

West Western area south of the Han river and including Gangseo and Yangcheon

Copy of old region text

North of the River

• Jongno (종로) – The Joseon-era historical core of the city, containing most palaces and government offices. This district, along with Jung (중) district immediately to the south of it, makes up one of the main centers of the city. Here you can find the most famous of the Five Grand Joseon Palaces, Gyeongbokgung, with a long avenue leading up to the main gate. To the east of Gyeongbokgung are clustered Changdeokgung and Changyeonggung, two more of the Five, and Jongmyo Shrine, the main Confucian shrine in the dynastic era. Sandwiched between these two areas is Bukchon, a quaint housing area filled with 'hanok', beautiful traditional Korean houses that also date back to the dynastic era. South of Bukchon is Insa-dong which is the largest antiques market street in Seoul, and further south is Cheongyecheon, a renovated stream and park that runs through the heart of the downtown area.

• Jung (중) – This district makes up the other half of the historic core, with Cheongyecheon stream as its northern border. It holds some of the few remaining European-style government buildings left over from the Japanese era - the City Hall and the Bank of Korea, both in the west, centered around a large plaza often serves as a rallying point for protests and soccer games. Immediately to the southwest of the City Hall is Myeongdong, an large upscale shopping district that gets extremely busy at night and on weekends, and one of the top ten most expensive shopping districts in the world by rent. To the south of the City Hall is Namdaemun Market, another large shopping district that is decidedly cheaper than neighboring Myeongdong. Further south of Namdaemun is Seoul Station and Namsan Mountain, with the Seoul Tower at its summit. Finally, the eastern part holds Dongdaemun, an enormous fashion district with dozens of clothing malls, complexes, wholesalers, and department stores.

• Seodaemun-Mapo (서대문/마포) – These two districts lie immediately west of Jongro and Jung, and contain dozens of universities and colleges. As such, this area is home to some of Seoul's most active nightlife districts: Hongdae (홍대) and Sinchon (신촌). Sinchon is close to Yonsei University, one of the most prestigious in Korea, and has hundreds of restaurants, bars, clubs, and stores that are open well into early morning, packed with throngs of students during the weekend. Hongdae is famous for being the center of Seoul's indie and underground arts scene – expect to see street performers, indie rock bands, graffiti, and independent stores. During the night, Hongdae really comes alive, even more crowded than Sinchon and absolutely enormous – it's easy to get lost inside this huge nightlife district, and has the second highest concentration of foreigners, after Itaewon.

• Yongsan (용산) – Yongsan is home to the US Army Military Base as well as one of the largest electronics markets in the world, Yongsan Electronics Market. On the top floor of this market is a Starcraft Arena - and yes, computer-obsessed Korea does, in fact, regularly broadcast Starcraft matches on national television. This is also where you'll find Itaewon (이태원), perhaps the most culturally diverse area on the entire peninsula and home to dozens of restaurants featuring cuisine from the world over, numerous shops selling everything from custom-tailored suits to antiques, and several Western pubs and bars. Itaewon also has the only mosque in Korea, and as such there are a growing number of Middle Eastern and Pakistani immigrants. Talks are also finalizing on Yongsan International Business District, a $28.8 billion dollar project that when completed, will have a 665m centerpiece tower, the second tallest in the world.

South of the River

• Gangnam (강남) – Gangnam is the glitzy center of modern Seoul, home to hundreds of glass and steel skyscrapers, neon billboards, and some of the most expensive real estate in the country. The core business district runs along Tehran-ro from Samseong Station to Gangnam Station. Gangnam station is the true center of Gangnam - with dozens of high rises, hundreds of restaurants and bars, and thousands upon thousands of neon signs lining Gangnam street, this area is not only a major commercial and nightlife center for young adults, it is Korea at its futuristic, digital, high-tech best. Samseong station at the other end of Tehran-ro is connected to COEX, a huge underground shopping mall with a movie theater, aquarium, hotels, food courts, and a Hyundai Department Store. To the north of this business district (but still in Gangnam) is Apgujeongdong and Cheongdamdong, some of the most affluent areas in Seoul, and home to hundreds of upscale luxury brands and department stores. And yes - this is the place the Korean artist PSY sings about in his hit "Gangnam style".

• Songpa – a primarily residential district east of Gangnam where you'll find Lotte World, Olympic Park, Seoul (Jamsil) Sports Complex, and the Sincheon nightlife district. Lotte World is an unusual place - just a few bus stops away from COEX, it is yet another enormous shopping and entertainment complex, but with a twist: It holds one of the largest ice-skating rinks in Korea, and the largest indoor theme park in the world. Good for families with children, but be warned: on a rainy day, the shortest lines may be an hour or longer. Sincheon (신천, not to be confused with Sinchon, 신촌) is a large, crowded nightlife area, mainly populated by an older, local business crowd due to its location near Gangnam.

• Gwanak (관악) – A residential area at the Southern end of Seoul, bordering Gwacheon with Gwanak Mountain in between, a favorite for local weekend hikers. It is also home to Seoul National University, one of the most prestigious universities in South Korea. Near Seoul National University is Nakseongdae Park where the famous Korean general Gang Gam-chan is said to have been born, which houses a traditional shrine to honor the Goryeo Dynasty hero. Despite the historical Korean architecture, it is more of a weekend outing place for locals rather than a glamorous tourist attraction.

• Yeongdeungpo ((영등포-구)) – An island in the Han River and the closest Seoul gets to Manhattan with skyscrapers, the National Assembly and the Seoul Stock Exchange. Though it may seem attractive for tourists, in reality there isn't too much to do here, and the island gets pretty desolate during the weekends.

• Yangcheon – a district of western Seoul with the Mok-dong area at its centre, home to some of the tallest residential buildings in Seoul, a large Hyundae department store and an ice rink.

Universities

The following content has been added by TheDog2 and removed by myself

+++++++++++++++++++++

Seoul is home to many of South Korea's most prestigious universities, with admissions to any of the Top 3 listed below being extremely competitive. Korean high school students are often subject to immense pressure in their final year of high school to score well to gain admission to one of these.

• Seoul National University (서울대학교, 서울大學校), . The undisputed number one university in Korea, the entrance exams for local students are fiendishly difficult, and admission is extremely competitive.

• Yonsei University (연세대학교, 延世大學校), . One of the most prestigious private universities in Korea (unless you ask a Korea University student). The oldest university among Korea's Top 3.

• Korea University (고려대학교, 高麗大學校), . The most prestigious private universities in Korea (unless you ask a Yonsei University student).

++++++++++++++++++++

I have removed because:

1. There is no information in the text that is useful in any way for the visitor to Seoul
2. Student visitors will also not be helped in any way with this very high level description.
3. The 'Learn' section is for visitors who want to learn something during their visit, such as language or cookery. (Note that this could be at a university)

--Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:04, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I do think that there will be people who wish to visit Seoul for an extended period and immerse themselves in modern Korean culture, and going there as an international or exchange student is one of the legal ways to do so. I believe that while we should not give a comprehensive listing of all universities in Seoul, given that it will be very cluttered, I think that at least the famous ones should be listed as this is useful information for potential international students. You do not need to be resident in Seoul to go to university there, and international students are officially considered to be long-term visitors, not residents. In fact, should you want to attend university in Seoul as an international student, you will need to apply from your home country, receive an admission offer, then apply for your visa in your home country before you go. This information will allow potential international students to have an idea of what universities are reputable, and thus make a more informed decision on which university to apply to. The dog2 (talk) 02:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

The contention that we should list Seoul universities because students will visit them will be a 'slippery slope' in WikiVoyage terms. Many international business people visit Seoul, therefore should we list the major companies and the business chambers of commerce? Ultimately Universities are not travel destinations in themselves.

However, would you consider putting this information on the South Korea page instead? The top three universities of Seoul are also the top three of Korea, and it is that Article where people would look for general information about the country rather Seoul where they are looking for specific things to do in the city? You could then link to the main page from the Seoul articles 'Learn' section? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I still do think it warrants at least a brief mention. After all, they are located in Seoul. How about something like this:

"Seoul is home to many universities, including Seoul National University, Yonsei University and Korea University, the three most prestigious universities in Korea. There are opportunities for potential international and exchange students to enroll in these universities and live in Seoul for an extended period of time. Many of these universities also conduct Korean language classes to foreigners."

This would bring in more in line with the section about universities in the Shanghai article then. The dog2 (talk) 06:25, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd say "Korean language classes for foreigners", not "to foreigners", but otherwise, I like your proposed brief paragraph, except that I have a question: Are some of those language courses short-term (e.g., 1 month or less)? If so, that's worth a brief (even parenthetical) mention, in my opinion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree the dog2's proposed change for the Seoul page. I would also encourage use of Ikan Kekek's suggestion, since I believe that would bring it much closer to the purpose of the 'Learn' section. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:31, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

You're right. That was a typo on my part. It should be "for foreigners". I had a look and yes, those three universities all have 5 week intensive summer programmes for people who wish to learn Korean. The dog2 (talk) 15:21, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Terrific! That's information travelers can really use. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:09, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Region category

I ran a report on South Korea and noticed that Seoul was the only city not belonging to a province. Technically I understand that Seoul is actually its own region surrounded by Gyeonggi, however I felt for the purposes of traveler categorization it would be better to categorize inside Gyeonggi itself.

This was already the convention for other cities such as Busan that are in the same situation.

Does anyone disagree? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:50, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

See and Do

It seems as if the See and Do sections of the main article should have much more information for those of us who aren't sure what the main tourist attractions are in Seoul. Maybe we either add a summary or move some of the more important attractions up from district articles. Altaihunters (talk) 06:48, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that is my fault actually. We recently had a drive to create district articles and moved all the listings down. It now means the top level article needs to have summaries created. Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:54, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I started to expand 'Do', although unfortunately colorful prose is not my forte. Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:45, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Seoul banners

I've been looking at the Seoul banners and wanted to make a summary of the current status. Some of the following are mine but not all:

Main article banner. I don't really like this because it shows very little.

Jongno

Jung

Seodaemun-Mapo

Yongsan

Gangnam-Seocho

North

South

East

Seoul/West, Seoul/Songpa and Seoul/Yeongdeungpo-Guro are still outstanding. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:54, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

My impressions, as someone who's been to Seoul exactly once, for a day and a half in 1975 (and then a change of planes in the airport in 1987, which really doesn't count on several grounds): The main article banner gives me the impression of a claustrophobic city.

I like the Seoul/Jongno banner very much because of its pretty, symmetrical composition.

Seoul/Jung is a crowded street and a very good composition.

The picture of the market in Seoul/Seodaemun-Mapo is a good one, not the run of the mill.

Does "pink" in the Seoul/Yongsan banner refer to a sex shop, as in places like France? Because that's the impression I'm getting from the banner. [Edit: Maybe not, as there is another bar (?) called Green on the other side of the street, but without copious green lighting on the exterior.]

The Seoul/Gangnam banner is another crowded street scene, but not nearly as good a composition as in the Jung article.

Seoul/North is quite nice, a beautiful scene.

Seoul/South is a bit posed (I think I count 5 vendors looking at the camera), but I think that's OK and again, it's a nice image of a market scene, with a lot of depth.

Seoul/East is striking me as a very nice composition and a good "old/new" contrast picture.

Seoul/Yeongdeungpo-Guro now has a banner, a nice bridge and river scene.

Seoul/Songpa's banner is of the Olympic Stadium with fall foliage. The weather was a little hazy on the day the source image was taken, so a better picture is definitely imaginable, but I think most anyone would agree that this banner is perfectly acceptable.

Seoul/West still has no banner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:09, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm trying to get Seoul to at least Usable in the next few weeks.

In terms of the Seoul/Yongsan banner, you are right, it does look like a European style brothel. The area (Itaewon) is next to the main American army base in Korea and has a reputation for seediness. I actually don't know what kind of business the pink sign is advertising but my best guess would be a 'hostess club' (A place where businessmen can go, pay for expensive drinks and talk to ladies, which very occasionally can imply something 'extra' afterwards). Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:11, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Looking again, it is also possible that it s a hairdresser or nail salon :) Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:14, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Less districts?

As of now we have divided Seoul into 11 districts. Yes, I know well that Seoul is a gigantic city geographically and population-wise. Still, many of the peripheral articles are really short and hence it might be worth considering some mergers to get rid of 3-4 shorter ones. What do you think, Andrew and others?

Ps. remember the 7 2 recommendation, even if it's not mandatory for the lowest level in the hierarchy. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:51, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I suppose it would be possible to combine West, Yeongdeungpo-Guro, and South into one article (Southwest?) and combine East and Songpa into another (still named East?). That would take it down to 8 districts. However, I don't know if grouping those districts together would be awkward in terms of their atmosphere/generalities, and moreover, since our Seoul coverage is obviously underdeveloped, my main concern would be whether we wouldn't just wind up going back to this 11-district split once this city starts getting the attention it deserves. The current arrangement of 11 districts doesn't particularly strike me as unreasonably many for a city this size, if we could just get some decent coverage going on. Texugo (talk) 18:23, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

The other extreme, reverting to one single article, would not be a good idea. Seoul as one article would be very long, that's why it was districtified in the first place. The problem is that some of the outermost articles are really, really empty (while Jung and other some other central districts are already Usable). ϒpsilon (talk) 18:51, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I suppose my concern is, especially given that some districts are already Usable, that we need to be considering whether the potential content for those districts, once they reach usable, would or would not be reasonable compared to the existing districts. Is it a reasonable breakdown for which some districts simply haven't received enough attention? Wouldn't those empty districts, once properly filled in, be reasonable counterparts for those existing usable ones? The breakdown needs to be based on a consistent level of reasonable potential coverage, rather than simply basing it on what's been covered well so far and merging the rest. If West, for example, once brought up to Usable would be comparable in size and level of detail to one of the existing Usables, then merging with others prematurely would just mean that as soon as someone comes along to give proper attention, we'll be talking about splitting them out again. If, on the other hand, West, Yeongdeungpo-Guro, and South, once brought up to Usable, could still be merged reasonably in an article comparable to existing Usables, then maybe that's the way to go. But I get a feeling that what we have is already fairly proportional, if we just gave more attention to the empty ones. Texugo (talk) 19:21, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Usually suburban areas have little to offer compared to the central parts of a city. Though I guess it wouldn't be entirely impossible to get up all articles to at least usable status. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:35, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Actually last few days I have turned my attention back to Seoul and the much neglected outer districts.

I'd agree that Korean suburbia, perhaps more than many other countries, is rather boring. Endless white apartment blocks as far as the eye can see, interspersed with generic Korean bakery, fried chicken and pizza chains.

Nevertheless, the districts in question are massive :) Can you give me perhaps a week to bring them up to Usable? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:13, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Have a month or more if you need. Personally I don't really know much about the suburbs, but I'm pretty good at googling things :). I was thinking Seoul could be a nice DotM sometime in 2016; for that the article must be at Guide status and therefore all districts as Guide Usable status or better. ϒpsilon (talk) 09:21, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Maps in region articles

A couple of district articles e.g. Seoul/Songpa still have simple static maps showing where in Seoul the districts are. They don't look very pretty and other districtified cities don't have them either, so are there any objections to me removing them? ϒpsilon (talk) 17:35, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Personally I find them useful because I wouldn't know what part of the city I'm looking at from the dynamic map. That said if they are felt to be ugly then I don't strongly object to removing them. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 17:38, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

OK. Dynamic maps can of course be zoomed. So I'll remove the maps as of now to look what the articles look like but the maps can be added back if they are useful. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Wait, there was a weird way to mark out areas on dynamic maps with Template:GPX a bit like itineraries. That would be a much more elegant solution. Let's leave the static maps in the articles as of now. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:03, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Found out how to create the effect, it's apparently called Mapmask. I already added it to Seoul/Yongsan#Get in and will add it to other dynamic maps tomorrow. Ps. sorry for being blunt, I didn't notice it was actually you who had drawn (some of) the static maps. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:45, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

No problem to be blunt :) If something needs calling out then it doesn't matter who contributed. (Actually I just drew one map)

It would be good to use mapmasks. They are easy to technically define (just a long list of coordinates), but I never took the jump to find where those coordinates for city districts could be derived from. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:19, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

A brief guide: Mapmask data from OSM relations.

• Go to http://www.openstreetmap.org/ and search e.g. for "Songpa". Note the number of the relation .
• OSM Route Manager -- Exporting OpenStreetMap routes as a GPX track file. (Lookup/Add to personal route/download GPX).
• GPX Optimizer -- Simplifier/Optimizer for GPX files (Load local file/optimize/download).
• Gpx2mapmask -- Converting GPX track or route file to Mapmask format.

-- Joachim Mey2008 (talk) 05:33, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Alternative banner for this article?

Banner currently used in this article

Suggested new alternative banner

Banner 3

I created a new alternative banner for this article (I initially created it first and foremost so that it would be used at the top of the parallel article in the Hebrew edition of Wikivoyage, yet I later decided to also suggest that the English Wikivoyage community would consider using it here as well). So, which banner do you prefer having at the top of this article? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 12:46, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

I prefer the new banner, which provides the viewer some relief with the river and bridge. The current one, though, does effectively represent the excitement and claustrophobic feeling of a big city. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:47, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

The new banner has a really uninteresting sky... I don't see much improvement over the current banner. Danapit (talk) 18:11, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

The architecture and skyline of Seoul isn't exactly famous for a reason. Seoul is certainly a city more impressive at night time. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:58, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Current Syced (talk) 07:42, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

I just added a third option to choose from. The current one is still my favourite though. --Renek78 (talk) 00:06, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Wikidata items for dynamic map

Below is the map with all Wikidata items for the place. This should simplify the work in case we want to change the district set-up in the future. The tool Wikidata Extractor has been used to create the mapshapes.--Renek78 (talk) 20:48, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Danger? Warning?

The bluster & threats (or at least what I see reported) all seem to be coming from N Korea & the US, but S Korea is not uninvolved. Seoul is under 50 miles (80km) from the border. It is within artillery range & N Korea has had a lot of big guns (one report says 9,000) pointed at it for decades.

If the situation blows up, Seoul would certainly be shelled & might even be nuked. The North certainly has bombs & bombers. I'm not sure they have reliable rockets yet, but whatever they have would be more likely to hit Seoul than other targets they've threatened. They've claimed to have miniature A-bombs that could be delivered by artillery. I don't believe that, but I might be wrong. Reports claim they've got lots of chemical & biological weapons too.

I'm inclined to think the Hitchhiker's Guide's "Don't Panic" advice is excellent & would not advocate adding a warning box here (yet?). However it seems worth discussing whether a caution box is needed & what it might say. Pashley (talk) 22:35, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm reminded of the recent discussion to add a warning box to Guam, lest it get hit by a North Korean missile. We could also add a warning to New York City since in theory a North Korean missile could hit there as well.

Seoul has been dealing with this for 60 years now, and the threat hasn't changed much in that time Whether you risk being blown up by a small A bomb or a barrage of conventional shells doesn't really change things. It has always been a threat and I think adequately covered in the article as is. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:46, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

I think the fact that this is a time of increased tension should be mentioned, though; wouldn't you agree on that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:17, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

There have been multiple periods of 'increased tension' over the past 20 years, including actual artillery fire on South Korean islands and the sinking of a South Korean navel vessel. These were very serious incidents that also did not result in war.

What are we trying to say with 'increased tension' exactly? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:00, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

That the risk of war could be a bit higher than normal. Otherwise, "follow the news" is a constant, not something just for now. As for the serious incidents, I think they should have been mentioned on a cautionary basis at the time, if there had been a Wikivoyage then. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:55, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Moving or deleting the article about Gyeongbokgung

Gyeongbokgung article is already described in Seoul/Jongno, so I don't think it is necessary to describe in detail on this general Seoul page. I think merging the contents to Jongno article would be more organized. How does everybody thinks about this? Max980301 (talk) 08:01, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Korean text in "Do"

What is all that text doing? I don't know if it should be outright deleted or translated and integrated with the rest of the article. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:44, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Seoul North suggested to be split into two

Because right now it is weird, listing two groups of not connected neighborhoods - it is weird to group them together. See discussion Talk:Seoul/North; best comment there. Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 03:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC)