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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/People questioning the 9/11 Commission Report (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. --Ezeu 01:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

People questioning the 9/11 Commission Report

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Original research, POV fork, indiscriminate list with vague requirements for inclusion, redundant see:9/11 Truth Movement, Scholars for 9/11 Truth, and Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 DCAnderson 04:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Should't you have stated that this is a second nomination? See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/People questioning the official American 9/11 account. --LambiamTalk 11:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Title is "Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/People questioning the 9/11 Commission Report (2nd nomination)".--DCAnderson 12:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Oh, come on... not again. As I said on the article's talk page when this was proded eight hours ago, these reasons for deletion don't hold water. 1 - "original research" - If the claims are properly cited then it's not original research. Since we have the citations for the people being kept on this list it's not original research. It's as simple as that. 2 - "POV" - What POV? How is the article expressing a POV by listing those who question the report? It's not. 3 -"redundant see:9/11 Truth Movement, Scholars for 9/11 Truth, and Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11" - The people listed on this page need not be part of the Truth Movement, need not be scholars or reaserachers. So how is it redundant? This is a much more inclusive list, therefore it doesn't fulfill the functions of more specialized lists. 4 - "vague requirements for inclusion" - If people question the report they're in. What's vague about that? -- noosphere 04:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentThe article is a POV fork attempting to avoid the scrutiny of the more heavily enforced 9/11 pages. It is also very indiscriminate in definition, as it means if you have questioned the 9/11 report at all you're automatically lumped in with the controlled demolitions and conspiracy theory loonies.--DCAnderson 05:00, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The page exists to show off how many people disagree with the official account. The POV is that there is something wrong with the official account. It's a fork because it is a POV seperated from the other 9/11 pages describing the official account.--DCAnderson 05:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where does the article express the POV that "there is something wrong with the offical account"? Listing those people that take such a stand doesn't mean Wikipedia is endorsing the stand itself. Otherwise we should delete the 9/11 Commission Report article itself as endorsing the POV that "there's nothing wrong with the official account", which is ridiculous. -- noosphere 05:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:POVFORK says, "Since what qualifies as a "POV fork" is itself based on a POV judgement, do not refer to forks as "POV" — except in extreme cases of repeated vandalism. Instead, assert the application of NPOV policy — regardless of any POV reasons for making the fork, it still must be titled and written in an NPOV-consistent manner." So, once again, I ask what POV does the article express? -- noosphere 15:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • No vote yet. Question: can you answer the assertion that the article is an "indiscriminate list with vague requirements for inclusion"? Because it seems like one to me. I'm satisifed, however, that this is not original research (fully verified and sourced throughout), it does not push a particular POV within the article, and I can understand that there is a difference between the pressure group Scholars for 9/11 Truth, professional researchers working full-time on their particular conspiracy theory, and this grouping of random individuals worldwide who have questioned the 9/11 events. Vizjim 10:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep per every single word writen by Noosphere, im feel really happy that there are people who what to defend wikipedia from this kind of afd. Keep up the good work! As for "indiscriminate collection", it is not. Ther are "researchers" that question. A researcher researchs new facts. Ordianry people only agree with the facts researched. See list of christians, List of humanists, List of transhumanists, List of anarchists, List of communists and List of people by belief. Any more questions? There is not a single valid reason to delete this. --Striver 10:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is a lot easier to judge whether someone is say "a christian" or "an anarchist" because they would refer to themselves as being members of these groups or ideoligies. This article is very vague, because as near as I can tell you could make just about any criticism of the report, and suddenly you're a feather in the hat of the "9/11 Truth Movement".--DCAnderson 12:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So it's not vague at all, since you've just stated the exact criteria for inclusion. You just have a problem with with those people being in the article, which is a different criticism than having a vague criteria for inclusion. -- noosphere 15:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Those are ideologies. Criticising the 9/11 Commision report is not an ideology. i.e. Anarchists and Christians share a set of world views and philosophies on life. Criticising something just means you expressed an opinion about one specific thing. This doesn't represent an all-encompassing view on the world.--DCAnderson 17:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but you just lost me. Are you suggesting that only people expressing "all-encompassing views on the world" could be included in an article like this?
Also, you did not address my point, which was that the criteria for inclusion wasn't ambiguous since you yourself seemed to have no problem applying it when you said, "you could make just about any criticism of the report, and suddenly you're a feather in the hat of the "9/11 Truth Movement"." That means that you know, unambiguously, when people fit in to this article (which isn't the Truth Movement, by the way... but the point holds for this article as well). -- noosphere 15:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I vote for a rename to People who have questioned the findings in the 9/11 Commission Report. but this article can not be merged into the researchers article, however, maybe that article can be merged into this one.--Striver 17:44, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • But these aren't all researchers! That's the real problem with merging it in to an article on researchers/scholars. Some of the people here are neither. -- noosphere 15:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify, your addition came in between about twenty or more deletions of information by Tom harrison, and I intended to revert the deletions not your addition. I am actually all for adding details about why a given person questions the report. Reverting your addition was a mistake, and I've put it back in the article now. Sorry about that. -- noosphere 21:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • This article presents serious problems with WP:V, and WP:RS. Even the mainstream media has problems with cherry-picking quotes from what people say, and out of context they can imply something different than what the person really intended and not capture nuanced views well. This issue of cherry-picking, misinterpretations, and misrepresentation is all the more serious with sources used in this article, such as prisonplanet.
    • Some users have attempted to clean up this article, but nonetheless its daunting and a problematic article for Wikipedia. Maintaining this article requires extreme due diligence, as these are all Living people; I'm concerned a list like this may misrepresent some people's viewpoints, or mistakenly include people. Should these very people see this page, there is potential for causing another controversy and embarassment for Wikipedia (e.g. John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy).
      • In light of a recent message from Jimmy Wales on the enwiki mailing list, he strongly suggested a preference for "Zero information preferred to misleading or false information". [3] This article is a perfect case, for where this should apply. --Aude (talk | contribs) 18:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If we know that the information is misleading then we should not add it in the first place, or delete it. I think we can all agree about that. However, just because a quote could be taken out of context doesn't mean that we should not add information based on that quote.
We should create articles based on the best of our knowledge and not pussyfoot around living people just because they may, possibly not have meant something they said. But, of course, if there's evidence they didn't mean what they said by all means show us that evidence, and if it's valid then we'll remove that person from the list. -- noosphere 21:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I do like the idea of explaining in what maner each person questionend the reportes finindings, i think ill start doing that, as soon as i take some time. No reason to delete the entire article.--Striver 19:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I could agree with this merge proposal.--Striver 08:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Above anon user's first contribution[4].--DCAnderson 15:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • To quote Noosphere, "WP:POVFORK says, "Since what qualifies as a "POV fork" is itself based on a POV judgement, do not refer to forks as "POV" — except in extreme cases of repeated vandalism. Instead, assert the application of NPOV policy — regardless of any POV reasons for making the fork, it still must be titled and written in an NPOV-consistent manner." " —204.42.17.108 15:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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