Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kenan (son of Noah)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. No sources. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 07:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kenan (son of Noah)

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Original research, only primary sources. Kenan does not appear by name in the Qu'ran, and, apparently, there are no secondary source saying that the son in that passage is called "Kenan". For context, see WP:ANI#Seeking_3_month_topic_ban_for_User:Imadjafar. Enric Naval (talk) 17:58, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Kenan is simultaneously "mentioned in the Qur'an but is unnamed". A clear oxymoron. Doesn't make any sense Someone65 (talk) 18:09, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep. There's no question that this is a figure discussed in the Koran; it's mostly the name and some of the details that are disputed. We actually do have some lengthy articles on Biblical figures with a similar situation, such as Saint Dismas - a Biblical figure of some significance who is given no name in the Bible, who has a traditional name and biography originating from outside the Canon. Likewise with the traditional names of the Biblical Magi, and with other material we cover that originates from the Golden Legend as opposed to scripture. The naming issue here is of the same character as these, and ought not to be a bar if it is not in those cases. Having said that, this article is sorely in need of real sourcing, and in particular of secondary scholarly sourcing rather than quotes from scripture; while I dispute that the reason listed in the nomination is sufficient, sources must be found and added in order for the article to be genuinely supportable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gavia immer (talk • contribs) 18:50, 2011 January 28

Keep and (of course) improve, if only because minor characters in notable stories are usually deemed worthy of articles. As stories go the story of Noah is just about as notable as they come. Kitfoxxe (talk) 19:57, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Minor characters are kept if they have RS talking about them. Star Wars is very notable, but many of its minor characters were merged in List of Star Wars characters. The mother of Anakin was merged into Skywalker family (relevant AfD) --Enric Naval (talk) 20:21, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Anyways, if it's kept as a minor character then it should be renamed. Anyone got a good idea? I can only think of Son of Noah in Islam). --Enric Naval (talk) 20:21, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. -- Jclemens-public (talk) 23:26, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:59, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Methinks, as the article currently stands, with no source reference for the name Kenan (since the Qu'ran does not mention the name), the title of the article could be something like The illegitimate son of Noah in the Qu'ran. Otherwise it will be an illegitimate article about an illegitimate son. Nipsonanomhmata ^(Talk) 22:56, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment As of now this article has nothing in the way of sources to prove that it is notable. I have found very little (in English) that uses the name 'Kenan' to reference the unnamed son of Noah in the Qur'an. There may be (and I believe likely is) material relating to him in Qur'anic commentary, but the article is in dire need of an Arabic speaking expert in the area. Unless sources are added, due to WP:V, I think this will have to be deleted. And as a side note, the mention of him in the Qur'an doesn't satisfy WP:V as it does not mention him by the name in the article. Ravendrop (talk) 04:03, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any Arabic-fluent participants on Wikipedia who can verify if Kenan is mentioned in Arabic language references? Regent of the Seatopians (talk) 13:59, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Did a search for "Noah" on Greek Google and got the names of three sons as Ham, Shem, and Japheth. No Kenans. Also get the same names on Google.com. I've worked out where the "Kenan" name comes from. Ham is the father of "Canaan". I suspect that the Islamic transliteration is "Kenan". That would make sense. Nipsonanomhmata ^(Talk) 03:56, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment/Clarification You are confusing persons, and making connections where they don't exist. The person in question of this article is Noah's son. The Qur'an makes this very, very clear (see Sura 11:41-46). Islam does not have the exact same characters as the Christian/Jewish Biblical traditional story of Noah. Yes, in the Jewish/Christian tradition Noah's son Ham had a son name Canaan, but that is a completely different person to the one in this article. The name of the person in this article is not mentioned in the Qur'an, but rather is (from my understanding, though lacking the reference we need as the sources are all in Arabic) a later Oral tradition addition. Ravendrop (talk) 21:51, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

*Merge and redirect with a new article called Canaan (grandson of Noah). i.e. include mention of this Quranic transliteration of Canaan's name which appears to be "Kenan". Also, he isn't the son of Noah. He is the grandson of Noah. Noah's son Ham had a son called Canaan. Nipsonanomhmata ^(Talk) 04:01, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. (see above also). Unless you can provide reliable references for this 'error' in transliteration that you claim, your proposal is entirely WP:OR and is not valid.Ravendrop (talk) 21:54, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete ~~Undecided~~ I have not suggested that there is an "error" in transliteration. On any search on Google the names Canaan/Qinan/Kenan are noted as common transliterations. I will also note a coincidence. In the Bible, Ham had an illegitimate son called Canaan/Qinan (from Hebrew)/Kenan (from Arabic). The Qur'an says that Noah had an illegitimate son but gives no name (the Bible doesn't mention that son). However, it should be noted at the top of the article "Not to be confused with Noah's grandson Canaan/Qinan/Kenan". However, I also note that the Qu'ran does not mention a name for the illegitimate son of Noah. Whatever the source is that gives Noah's illegitimate son the name Kenan must be disclosed. Nipsonanomhmata ^(Talk) 22:39, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Agree with you completely then. Anything unreferenced at this point is just pure speculation on our part, and therefore violates WP:OR. Ravendrop (talk) 01:22, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Completely unsupported article. There are no sources and the ones provided are falsified, because none of them supports anything. --Brunswick Dude (talk) 23:40, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.