Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/El Gaucho (Israeli restaurant)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:02, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

El Gaucho (Israeli restaurant)

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Had a PROD that was removed without reason. Reason for PROD was "Created by a sockpuppet of globally-locked User:Tyciol, glaring fail of WP:NCORP, unambiguous WP:PROMOTION." Which I think is totally valid. There is only one source that seems legitimate. The rest are either primary or trivial coverage and I was unable to find any other sources, in-depth secondary ones or otherwise, by doing a search. So, it clearly fails WP:CORP. Adamant1 (talk) 06:46, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 06:53, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 06:53, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 07:05, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Wikipedia is not a directory. Almost all of it is sourced to the restaurant's own website, or eLuna. One review in the Jerusalem Post is woefully undersourced, and doesn't come close to meeting WP:NCORP. We're not yelp, or the yellow pages, and we don't run ads. Vexations (talk) 12:08, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Most of the references are to the company's own website. Number 5 7 13:08, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The two people who said delete appear to only be looking in the article, unlike the nominator. The sources need to exist to establish notability, not just in the article. I have added about 4 sources to the article which are more than enough to meet the criteria for WP:GNG. There are many more out there, a search in Hebrew will come up with plenty of sources, searching in English will not, but being that this is an Israeli chain it makes sense to find mind in Hebrew. - Galatz גאליץ ^{שיחה Talk} 17:00, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Galatz, kindly refrain from insinuating that participants in this discussion have not done due diligence. Vexations (talk) 19:37, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Vexations: Ok let me rephrase. The two people who have commented have only mentioned the status of the article at that time. The status of that article has nothing to do with whether or not an article meets WP:GNG. Sourcing not included in the article should be considered when determining notability however neither has mentioned this. Better? - Galatz גאליץ ^{שיחה Talk} 20:40, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  Galatz, if you look at my contributions, you'll notice that I sometimes list all the sources ever used used in an article, or (earlier today) point out all sources added by a specific editor. I do my research. Do not suggest that my !vote is deficient because of some hypothetical omission. If you think that there are sources that meet the requirements of WP:NCORP, point out which ones specifically meet those requirements: excluding the links to elgaucho's own website and neto, a dead link, that leaves: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]
  
  [8] Not one of those meets NCORP. I stand by my comment that we're not a directory Vexations (talk) 21:01, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:GNG trumps WP:NCORP and those 8 sources are more than enough to meet GNG. - Galatz גאליץ ^{שיחה Talk} 12:59, 27 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vexations: What makes you convinced that the references provided by Galatz do not establish notability? Can you please take the time to give an analysis of the sources. Also, do you speak/read Hebrew?4meter4 (talk) 01:52, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
4meter4, As you can see on my user page, I speak Dutch, German, English and French. I also speak some Spanish and Italian, which I haven't mentioned, because I'm not good enough to have an unmediated conversation with a native speaker, though I do occasionally translate from Spanish and Italian. I rely on google translate for reading other languages. I have a fair bit of experience with using machine translation though. In a previous career, I worked with teams that spoke only Japanese or Arabic, and I have worked with clients that spoke Russian or, yes, Hebrew. I think I have a fairly good idea of what a Hebrew source has to say about a subject.
Let's take https://www.maariv.co.il/news/israel/Article-594855 published by Maariv_(newspaper) for example: the translation is pretty crappy, but we can find out a few things about the restaurant: Elazar Shlomi is the director or branch manager of El Gaucho. It's not immediately clear of which branch, but given the photo credit, and the mention of "Dan District"( במרחב דן) it is likely the Ramat Gan location. (That location closed in 2018, but the source is from 2017). Shlomi claims that the restaurant was a "a truly kosher kosher restaurant". It's not immediately clear to me if that means kosher mehadrin, but I think it does (כשרה למהדרין ). And that's it; there is not other information about the restaurant. It is where something newsworthy happened; a woman died of suffocation despite receiving early medical attention. There is hardly any usable information in that article: We wouldn't have mentioned the name of the manager of a closed branch anyway, and it's also doubtful that we would have mentioned that that branch was kosher. As unfortunate as the death of the poor woman was, a restaurant is not notable because someone died there.
To me this looks like reference stuffing: add lots of citations, no matter how trivial, irrelevant, or outdated to make the subject look notable. Do I really have to do this for all the citations, or can I ask that instead the keep proponents tell us which two sources are the best ones to show that the subject has received the kind of news coverage that WP:NCORP and the GNG require? Vexations (talk) 13:14, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vexations: Considering that you are the one claiming that the sources in the article don't meet W:NCORP, then I think you should take the time to give us an analysis of the individual sources given that they are not in English and other reviewers may not have your experience with machine translations or be so well versed in navigating foreign languages in general. This is particularly important because another editor claims the sources meet the threshold of GNG. Best.4meter4 (talk) 14:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
4meter4, alright. Two articles in colbonews.co.il, https://www.colbonews.co.il/haifa-news/70486/ and https://www.colbonews.co.il/haifa-news/70641/ discuss an order by the Ministry of Health to close the restaurant due to "serious deficiencies that endanger public health" on 24 December 2019 and again on 9 January 2020. The order was rescinded after a third review on 12 January 2020. I think that colbonews I can't find anything in the two articles that actually says anything about the restaurant that one might use to create an encyclopedia article. They were shut down temporarily an re-opened. Does this meet the requirement "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"? I don't know much about colbonews (it is only used as a source in one other WP article), but it appears to have some relationship (owned by?) Haaretz. The articles don't read like press releases by the restaurant so I'd be inclined to say it both an independent and a reliable source. Is it significant? No. The only claims that we can make about the Haifa branch of the restaurant chain (based on these two articles) are: The restaurant is located on Yefe Nof Street in the Carmel Center in Haifa, it was closed and reopened. This source, therefor meets neither WP:GNG nor WP:NCORP Vexations (talk) 16:06, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

4meter4, then there's Globes, also a generally reliable and independent source (I've counted 1469 citations). There are again, two articles: one from 2010; https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000580296 and one from 2012; https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000763189

The first is an article in the business section. It has some information that might be usable: Adi Ezra is the owner of El Gaucho. (The article doesn't mention it, but he's Bar Refaeli's husband. El Gaucho is investing 2 Million NIS (+/- 600,000 USD) in upgrading their processes, marketing and branding. They import meat from Argentina. They have been in business since 1982. They had eight restaurants in 2010. They hosted more than 500,000 diners per year. (This is a bit vague, we're not sure when that was). Does this source meet GNG and NCORP? It's independent, outdated and not very clear on visitor numbers. I've not be able to verify the ownership elsewhere. The facts reported by Globes are WP:ROUTINE and nearly impossible to verify, although there is a brief mention of El Gaucho in https://hollywoodmask.com/entertainment/adi-ezra-net-worth-bio-wedding.html.

The other article in Globes is a restaurant review of sorts. It doesn't state any facts, other than that El Gaucho was (when?) listed in the results of a survey (which one?) as "he best meat restaurant in the country". It then goes on to provide a long list of better places to eat a steak, and points out that the Tel Aviv branch has closed. The reviewer then mentions that he once enjoyed a good steak in the Eilat branch. There is no information about the business.

So, neither of these two sources gives us significant coverage either, and the do not meet the GNG and NCORP. Vexations (talk) 16:54, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per Vexations. Fails WP:GNG and WP:NCORP.4meter4 (talk) 17:56, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.