Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Witness Ministries

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep, notability is now established by recent changes, and POV material has been excised. The page still needs some cleanup work (keeping an eye on the POV issues), but that's not reason to delete in and of itself.Cúchullain ^t/c 20:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Christian Witness Ministries

Possibly non-notable church. Article created by a member of, or leader of , said church. The entire church has less only 8,000 people on it's email list. A Gnews search shows no articles, and the entire purpose of the church seems to be to deride the Assemblies of God church. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 12:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC) ---[reply]

Comment Like I have Mentioned CWM is not a "church" but an association of many people who have left the AOG and also who have been involved in churches in error, and have joined the group. As I pointed out on your talk page:

I just can't see why CWM and Powell with 1000's associated would not be significant, even with the Newsletter to 8000+ people [1], the books he has printed and authored [2], the secular newspaper articles from News Corp, ABC, Sydney Morning Herald etc, the affiliated churches, his own seperate church fellowship church in Brisbane which he runs, and the 100's of christian sites that use his material and publish his articles.

Also he was General Secretary of AoG in Australia - 1989 to 1992, which is now Hillsongs the biggest church in Australia. He also was part of Paradise Community church Leadership which Guy Sebastian is a part of. Aeron Morgon the former AOG leader in the UK is his co-author. These guys are huge in christian circles.

BTW I am not from Powells Church, I have one of his books and have used the CWM bookshop to get stuff, as they are the only Dave Hunt outlet here in Australia. I was just surprised that CWM or Powell are not mentioned yet in the Frank Houston artcile he is cited. Most articles in papers about Hillsong or AOG or Paradise quote Powell. He seems to be an authority on AOG/Hillsong matters as he personally knew Andrew Evans, Brian Houston (leader of Hillsongs), and Frank Houston. 124.184.2.54 (talk) 14:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC) — 124.184.2.54 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Powell alo appeared on 60 minutes a few years back when a story on Hillsong appeared. Ths guy is notable! 124.184.2.54 (talk) 19:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, doesn't seem to meet WP:ORG. Stifle (talk) 15:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. -- raven1977 (talk) 02:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or Stubbify This is a horrid article in its current state--it seems highly POV, with BLP leanings. Nuked or rebuilt, either would be a marked improvement. Jclemens (talk) 02:25, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete not notable and BLP concerns. RMHED (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but tag for POV and other problems. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Delete - as non-notable in the Wiki sense eg for lack of WP:RS - and there is also the huge problem of POV issues and allegations of sexual abuse listed as fact. Springnuts (talk) 12:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - it seems even the article about Michael Guglielmucci has been deleted also. [3] This is rather bizarre as he was all over the news a few weeks back in most major papers and on Today Tonight and reported on most TV News programmes in Australia. [4] Earlier this year, Mr Guglielmucci released a hit song, Healer , which was featured on Sydney church Hillsong's latest album. The song debuted at No. 2 on the ARIA charts, but is considered not notable in wikipedia??? Go figure. Hillsong is Australia biggest church and one of the biggest album sellers in Australia! Not notable?? [5]

I think that Many wiki editors in the US are deleting pages that relate to Australia, but have no idea how big these news stories are. This scam is like the Ted Haggart scandle, or Jimmy Swaggart scandle but now the entire artlice was deleted and he is unknown to anyone? What?? [6]

Also it must be noted that in Australia, Hillsong (the main 'mother' church for AOG, CLC, and ACC) has been known to sway vote on Australian Idol [7] it makes me wonder if there is a blackban on critical articles on wikipedia by Hillsong people (they had 30,000 at a recent conference) and are the main AOG/CLC/ACC church in Australasia. Australian Idol, Paradise Community Church, and Hillsong, promoted guy sebastian also.

It makes me wonder where wikipedia is headed when headline church stories and major record selling articts are shunned because of religious bias. No wonder I am having so much opposition to CWM and Philip Powell articles, Powell being Hillsongs MAIN critic in the media both secular and religious..

Keep – I do get a smattering of google news hits from a while ago (correction: the three 1986 articles appear to refer to a homonym, they don't mention Powell and would seem to predate foundation of this organisation), and the article cites one book mentioning the founder (non-self-published). There is also a Sydney Morning Herald article here. Google Books lists a handful of books published by CWM themselves, one Lulu.com publication which is irrelevant for present purposes, plus a mention in Business Review Weekly, which is more to the point. There may be more in local Australian papers. However, it may be better to create Philip Powell (pastor) (see Philip Powell) who as an individual may have more notability, and make this a redirect. POV etc. needs watching. Jayen 466 00:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Here's another source, [8], New Zealand Herald, there is enough significant discussion in sources independent of the subject to merit keeping the article. Cirt (talk) 11:43, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - An article that does not meet NPOV standards does not mean it should be deleted; it means it should be edited. Given the number of school and sports team articles about groups with just a few hundred people; more importantly the number of references that can be produced; this group meets notability requirements. --^StormRider 16:43, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete due to lack of notability and WP:BLP concerns. JBsupreme (talk) 17:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have removed unsourced (there were sources given, but not reliable sources saying what was stated) defamatory material from the article. Springnuts (talk) 17:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.