Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive101
Collect
[edit]| Article fully protected indefinitely. Any proposed edits must satisfy the requirements in the restriction applied by Sandstein. T. Canens (talk) 17:05, 9 November 2011 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Collect[edit]
Per Wikipedia:DIGWUREN, the editing restrictions had been applied to the Mass killings under Communist regimes article which prohibit any non-minor edits to that article without obtaining consensus on the talk page. (For the details, open up the box marked 'Procedural details' in the editing restriction and look at item #2) Collect made the following edits that violated the edit restrictions imposed on the MKuCR article:
As per Wikipedia:DIGWUREN, Collect was placed on notice. In addition, during the long discussion on the article's talk page[4] Collect's violations had been explained to him in details. Since Collect had been actively participating in this discussion, I assume he has read and understood these explanations. In addition, after Collect made his edit #2, his mistake has been explained to him by several users. I asked Collect to self-revert and gave him 48 hours for doing that. However, he rejected my request.
The prehistory of this incident is as follows. Since the controversial edit that is a subject of this thread was initially made by TLAM, and re-inserted (or expanded) by other three users (Smallbones, Collect and Vecrumba), I was initially contemplating to file a complaint against four users (TLAM, Collect, Vecrumba and Smallbones), however, after discussing this AE draft with all of them I decided not to report them. Instead, we agreed to temporarily leave these controversial edits in the article and start an RfC about new lede. However, since the RfC hadn't lead to any progress, I decided to restore status quo ante bellum editorarum (i.e. the last stable version before the edit war). However, this my step was immediately reverted by Collect (the edit #2, see above), hence this AE request.
Comments by Paul Siebert[edit]@Martin (Nug).
@ Smallbones. Please, do not re-iterate the same false arguments: no consensus had been achieved regarding the version reverted by me, so to request for consensus to revert the edits that had been made against consensus is totally illogical. Re Collect's "subtract editors". You again missed the point. Firstly, vote counting is explicitly prohibited by our policy and guidelines, however, even if we decide to count the votes, that should be done fairly: as I already explained, I, as a proposer of one of the versions, abstained from vote, but Smallbones/TLAM (the authors of the second version) didn't, so they votes in support of they own version (and against my one) are included in total vote count.
On Sandstein's edit restrictions[edit]In my opinion, the restrictions contain a critical hole, namely, whereas the procedure describes in details the mechanism of modification of legitimately added content, it does not define a procedure for removal of illegitimately added content. In that situation, we must apply common sense. I see three different possible ways, according to which the illegitimate content can be removed:
Since the procedure of removal was not specified by Sandstein, we are free to choose from all these three options. I acted according to the option # 4, and I do not see why it constituted a violation of the Sandstein's rules: if no concrete procedure for removal is specified, any actions allowed by our policy are legitimate.
@ EdJohnson. Firstly, whereas I assume I have a 'right to revert' any content that I feels to have been added in defiance of the restriction, I am ready to take a responsibility for my actions if my assertion appears to be wrong, so my rights are balanced with my responsibilities (a prectice that is common for all normal societies). In summary, if you see the editing restrictions in such a way, feel free to modify them, write new detailed procedure, and we will follow it. However, unless that has been done, it is ridiculous to sanction users for violations of ambiguous rules that allow multiple interpretations.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC) More on Sandstein's sanctions[edit]Yesterday, I discussed the details of Sandstein's rules with him (I hadn't done that before because I know that he is not active in this area any more), and I have to concede that EdJohnson interpreted them more correctly than I did (although that is totally counter-intuitive). According to these rules, the only possible ways to revert illegitimately added materials are: (i) to try to obtain consensus to remove them, or (ii) to file an AE request every time some material has been added illegitimately. I doubt the way (i) will work, because (as we can see in this case) several users acting in concert can easily block achievement of consensus by post factum approval of illegitimate changes during talk page discussion. Therefore, the only approach that will work is "(ii)". I am very reluctant to use this approach, however, I see that Sandstein's restrictions leave me no choice. Unfortunately, I will have to resort to this approach in future.
Discussion concerning Collect[edit]Comment by Collect[edit]I am aghast. [8] shows me in direct contact with the admin who made the ruling. Thus it is he, if anyone, who would have the right to make any enforcement. The edits on the article were:
Note that no one had ruled, other than Paul himself, that the other edits violated anything.
Sandstein's rules are as follows:
Paul's edit was not minor, was not a revert of vandalism, was not correction of any [[WP:BLP]\] violation, and did not have consensus. Failing on every single count. A revert of such an edit (which qualifies as vandalism when it violates every single rule placed on the article) is properly revertable.
As I specifically and properly went to Sandstein rather than make the AE complaint myself, as Sandstein suggested, I find this request to verge on "abuse of the noticeboard." Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:58, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
I trust this lays this "complaint" to rest, since the admin who was directly involved sees it as a possible proper complaint against Paul Siebert. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:04, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Note: With regard to looking at numbers of edits: On the article in question, I have made 43 edits, Paul has made 143 edits. On the talk page, I have made 428 edits, Paul has made 1614 edits. The same ratio applies pretty much to all Communism related articles. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:15, 1 November 2011 (UTC) Note: Paul shows an edit by me on 21 September and one on 29 October. Well over a month apart. 18 edits made by a number of editors intervened - without Paul appearing to object to any of them. What he did was to unilaterally and without proper consensus (heck - no consensus at all) to revert the claim that estimates of large numbers of deaths should be reduced to "tens of millions" when the consensus was clearly opposed to such a wondrous elimination of so many lives <g>. It WP:BOOMERANG ever applied, this is the time and place. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:26, 1 November 2011 (UTC) @PS -- this means if one gets rid of enough editors and subtracts them from a consensus that the consensus automatically has changed? I do not find that in WP:CONSENSUS nor in any Wikipedia policy or guideline. Might you show me where that is stated? IIRC, "lede 3" seems to be a consensus version on the article talk page. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:05, 1 November 2011 (UTC) @EJ I am aghast even more -- as I specifically asked Sandstein, and he appears to have seen no violation by me at all. What is clear, moreover, is that Paul absolutely did directly violate the Sandstein restrictions, and did not even deign to post on Sandstein's page. Therefore I find the suggestion to block me to be unwarranted - Wikipedia is not here to punish those who earnestly try to conform in all particulars with proper procedures, and such a block would send the mesage that trying to do things the right way is punished. I would certainly and absolutely appeal any block on this one. I also suggest Paul be treated as he would have had me treated - that any edits he makes must be proposed on a talk page and accepted by consensus for at least 72 hours before he makes any edit. Cheers - I hate Wikidrama, and this is a splendid example thereof. Collect (talk) 22:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC) Note: I find Paul's statement above:
to be a clear indication that he does not "get it" and that such an ultimatum to abuse this board is, per se, actionable here. I suggest that not only should he thus be topic banned indefinitely from all Communism articles and talk pages, broadly construed, but that he be noticeboard banned as a result of his obvious ultimatum. I had sought most earnestly to avoid all "drama" but it appears Paul is seeking to "up the ante" on drama here - which is contrary to the best interests of Wikipedia. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:10, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Nug[edit]Paul Siebert has made an edit to the lede that was stable since September without concensus[13] (note that this edit was made 9 days after the last edit) with a misleading edit comment "Reverted the changes that have been made in violation of the editing restrictions. See talk page", there is no discussion on talk about reverting back to some prior edit, but in fact a discussion about three alternative ledes here and here. Since when did Paul assume WP:OWNERSHIP of that article that he could unilaterally decree "I decided to restore status quo ante bellum editorarum", when that edit war in fact happened over a month ago. Apparently this edit was precipitated by Paul's proposed lede being rejected at 7 against with only 2 supporting, so it seems somewhat WP:POINTy and disruptive to efforts to build concensus for one of the three alternative ledes proposed on talk. WP:BOOMERANG may be in order here and suggest that Paul Siebert be given a formal WP:DIGWUREN warning. --Nug (talk) 06:09, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Vecrumba[edit]Lastly, Paul Siebert and I are both involved at the Holodomor mediation. His conduct there has been constructive, proving he is (a) well aware of the norms for collegial behavior and (b) his belligerent—being against an opposing editor—AE request here appears to be a deliberate violation of those norms once constructive conduct was not getting him to his desired results. I regret his conduct here given slow progress, but progress nevertheless, at Holodomor; strictly for myself, his action here calls into question his ability to deal in good faith @Holodomor going forward in case he is less than satisfied with results. This sort of AE request undermines collegial activity at more than just the article in question. PЄTЄRS
Comments by Greyhood[edit]As was already said, the initial edit by TLAM was a violation of the procedure. Staying intact in the article for about a month does not make it legitimate; this is just a consequence of Paul's hypercourtesy in editing: he tried to give extensive explanations why the edit was wrong, and tried to achieve a consensus on the new lead as a whole instead of further reverting and reporting TLAM or other users (which he was perfectly eligible to do). GreyHood Talk 13:36, 1 November 2011 (UTC) @Vecrumba. Collect is not a participant of that mediation, so this is not really related to this discussion. Your teachings on belligerent behaviour and AE usage in relation to Paul are highly inappropriate, given the facts that Paul is an extremely rare user of AE to initiate complaints here (unlike you), and he does not use it quickly and eagerly (unlike you) and without significant pre-consideration and discussion with involved users. Looking through the editing history of the discussed article, Paul does not appear the only major or primary contributor, and the sheer quantity of his edits in recent history speaks against any accusations in WP:OWNERSHIP. GreyHood Talk 14:33, 1 November 2011 (UTC) @EdJohnston. This doesn't make sense. Paul attempted to uphold the procedure by reverting edits that are against the procedure. If he was not eligible to do so, and the only way to revert some edit is via addressing the admins, than what was the sense in that procedure at all, why it is such a legal trap and why not simply edit-protect the article continuously? GreyHood Talk 19:51, 1 November 2011 (UTC) Also, judging by the discussions on the talk page and the editing history of the article, me, TFD, Paul and Collect were sure that the procedure does not prohibit reverts which are in certain cases justified (though we three had a different opinion from Collect on when there is a justification). And now it appears that so many editors suddenly got wrong in their interpretation of the procedure and some of them are suggested to be sanctioned for that. Should we really suppose bad faith in so many editors, or the procedure itself was unclear and problematic? GreyHood Talk 20:07, 1 November 2011 (UTC) Sandstein's procedure only says that "editors who violate this editing restriction may be sanctioned" and that one can request admin's opinion on whether there is consensus for a proposal. It does not elaborate how exactly situation should be monitored, how violations should be reported, and how the already made violations (past violations included) are dealt with, and who exactly dealts with them. In such a situation without clear instructions it is natural to suppose that some authority in enforcing the guidelines is left with common editors (as is normal situation on Wikipedia), not ony with admins, and apparently most or even all editors of the article and it's talk page perceived situation exactly in the way described. GreyHood Talk 20:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC) Taken into account the pre-existing wide-option perception of Sandstein's procedure as described by Paul and apparently shared by engaged users, and the new more specific perception as stated by the admins reviewing this request, it seems that we have the case of ex post facto law here. GreyHood Talk 22:21, 1 November 2011 (UTC) @EdJohnston This your comment suggests that there are too different ways of the development of the situation. In one, an appeal to admin likely leads to admin-instated revert and sanctions on the violating user; in other, lack of such an appeal in due time, or a good-natured attempt to solve the issue by discussion instead of seeking admin intervention could lead to the unclear situation with consensus and impasse. This fork of options is an obvious opportunity to game the system. GreyHood Talk 22:40, 1 November 2011 (UTC) @EdJohnston This diff shows that you were aware of the problems with the page a month ago, right after the first problematic edits as well as the first pair of reverts were made. Those reverts without consensus were obvious violation of the procedure as interpreted in your recent explanations. Yet you haven't taken any action then, saying "I don't see that the discussion required by Sandstein's editing restriction has taken place yet. Until then, it is premature to ask whether consensus has been reached." Thus you have encouraged editors into continuing the discussion and enhanced them in their feeling sure that they hadn't done anything against procedure at that point. Nor you had informed the involved parties at that point that their reverts were violating the procedure, which eventually led to a second pair of reverts by Paul and Collect after fruitless discussion. So I must ask admins, why the procedure was not properly explained so long ago when there was an opportunity to do so, why the further procedure-violating reverts were not prevented at that point, why it is only now that we are informed on the issue of illegal reverting? One should not so easily interpret unclear guidelines this or that way at different points of time and then use ex post facto law after a new interpretation was made (and if the interpretation is not new, the parties should have been informed long ago). GreyHood Talk 23:28, 1 November 2011 (UTC) @Biophys You should have watched the page even more closely. Paul reverted TLAM's edit in the first place, and TLAM clearly had violated the procedure by his edit. Then Collect reverted Paul. Clearly Paul attempted to uphold the procedure as he and everyone (including Collect) understood it, though Paul and Collect differed in the question whether TLAM's edit had consensus. I could not approve EdJohnston suggestions, because
@Mkativerata: I welcome the decision to revert the article to the original version before any procedure-violating edits. Without the revert, irrespective of sanctioning or not sanctioning the involved users, the underlying problem with the page would not be affected. And according to the procedure, an admin intervention to the article is really necessary. Also I should note that a similar decision to revert the article to the state before edit-warring was recently taken on Holodomor article, which made the article stable and led to the mediation case where we already successfully negotiated some problematic questions. GreyHood Talk 14:13, 6 November 2011 (UTC) Comment by Smallbones[edit]Paul is clearly wrong here. His revert to the version of two months ago is clearly against consensus. His update of that version was rejected in an RfC by !votes of 2 for and 7 against. TLAM, when he put in the current version, did assert consensus, which was by my count 5 for and 1 against, though he didn't follow all the extra rules imposed (then deserted by) Sandstein. Sandstein's extra rules clearly aren't working, but, as suggested by Ed Johnston, we started an RfC which has worked, at least to the extent that a "compromise version" seems to have a lot of support. We could continue that process, but Paul seems to be saying "my way or the highway." I particularly object to Paul's threats to use this page to get his way at the article, e.g. he told me at one point that I had to revert back to the old version, which I knew was against consensus and misrepresented the source cited, or he would start an action here against me. Paul's effective claim of ownership of this article should not be supported here. Smallbones (talk) 15:45, 1 November 2011 (UTC) Comment by Biophys[edit]Such editing restriction was only an experiment, and I agree with T. Canens that full protection could be better. Yes, Paul widely advertised his intention to submit this request [17] (and I tried to say that it was a bad idea [18]). Speaking about the essence of the dispute, I think this is all about WP:SYN and proper sourcing. Regardless to the question who started the most recent round of reverts, the edit by Paul in the left part of this diff tells something that is not in quoted source, and the edit by Collect describes claims by quoted source exactly. I think that Paul is engaged in original research by making synthesis of numbers from different sources. There were no good answers to simple questions like that. Biophys (talk) 16:25, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
@Greyhood. According to sanction by Sandstein, "No editor may make edits to the article unless such edits are either" minor, fixing vandalism, or "have consensus as described below, and the edit summary contains a link to the talk page discussion establishing that consensus.". There was no consensus and no link. Uninvolved admins have no obligation to block a user or to explain anything to him if they take no action. They may do it, unless they prefer do not interfere and allow the parties to resolve their differences themselves. Biophys (talk) 13:20, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Writegeist[edit]It seems to me that both Paul Siebert and Collect acted in good faith; and further that PS, in good faith, made his revert in good faith, having misunderstood the sanctions in respect of a revert of a non-consensual edit. I imagine that both have learned what they needed to learn from this. Surely none of this is serious enough to warrant blocks. Writegeist (talk) 02:14, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Mr. Stradivarius[edit]I thought I should leave a comment here regarding Paul Siebert's participation in the MedCab Holodomor mediation. I'm sure that most administrators here are well aware of this mediation, given the AE thread involving it which has recently closed. I do feel I should point out, though, that any sanctions which restrict Paul's participation in it will likely interrupt the mediation process. The argument here is the same as it was for the previous AE thread; namely, that if we try and proceed without Paul and have him join the mediation again after sanctions are lifted, then we may have to backtrack to issues that were previously thought to be resolved, and that this could cost a lot of time. I won't comment on any of the events at the Mass killings under Communist regimes article, however, as I have not been following the situation. Regards — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 15:56, 2 November 2011 (UTC) @Lothar von Richthofen - Yes, copying comments over from his talk page would be workable, and probably wouldn't slow the mediation down all that much. As long as he isn't restricted from taking part altogether then there shouldn't be a problem on the mediation side of things. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 16:28, 4 November 2011 (UTC) Comment by Lothar von Richthofen[edit]To Mr. Stradivarius: I personally don't feel that involvement in a mediation should exempt a user from sanctions incurred by engaging in extramediatory conflict on a related article. Mediation shouldn't be a get-out-of-jail-free card. As long as Paul still has talk-page access (if he is to be blocked), there is nothing stopping him from participating, if one of the mediators is willing to perform the small task of copying his comments over from user talk. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC) Result concerning Collect[edit]
Closing as fully protected. I don't see strong admin support or opposition to the idea of reverting the article to the pre-TLAM state, so any uninvolved admin may perform an administrative revert (see WP:PREFER) at their own discretion. T. Canens (talk) 17:05, 9 November 2011 (UTC) |
Russavia
[edit]| Russavia and Volunteer Marek blocked for interaction ban violation. No further action taken. See WP:A/R/C#Russavia, Biophys, etc.. T. Canens (talk) 18:00, 9 November 2011 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Russavia[edit]
Just to summarize, not only Russavia willingly violated his ban, but he gamed other people in violating their bans.
Looking at statements by Russavia, I do not see any indications that he is going to improve. He only asks to sanction others and paints himself as an innocent victim of harassment. How come? Editing articles is not harassment, unless this is edit warring. But I did not revert any edits by Russavia in Aeroflot. It was him who reverted my edit. Asking Russavia to self-revert and comply with his editing restrictions is not harassment. Reporting to AE is not harassment because this request has merit. What remains? "Attention, EEML!"? Can you drop the stick please? Here are some facts related to my interactions with Russavia during last year. First, I did not revert any edits by Russavia anywhere, including two articles where we had serious content disputes in the past and Aeroflot where we had no previous disputes with him. Second, I did not even talk with Russavia for a long time except one case when he reverted my edit in a similar situation a month ago. Third, I never asked for sanctions for Russavia, prior to submitting this request, even when he reverted my edits in two articles. In essence, I did not interact with Russavia, even though I do not have an interaction ban with him. Finally, even now I gave him an opportunity to self-revert and have the issue closed [21][22], but it was clear from his response and actions (reverting edits by Marek) that he is not going to comply. This is actually the problem: Russavia honestly believes that he is "above the law" and has no obligation to comply with Arbcom decisions [23] and follow WP:BAN ("editor X is not permitted to ... undo editor Y's edits to any page"). Hence I had no other choice, but to submit this request. @Greyhood. The i-bans do not prevent Russavia from editing any article he wants, as I tried to explain here, second paragraph. He can also post a comment at article talk to explain his edit, without addressing any editors with whom he has an i-ban. However, it prevents him from: (a) talking with certain editors and commenting about them, and (b) reverting their edits. This brings him only one problem: he must be able to tolerate edits made by editors with whom he has an i-ban. This is a very mild restriction, compare to a topic-ban, but he apparently was unwilling or unable to tolerate it. After thinking more carefully about this, I have to strike through my diff 8. Biophys (talk) 00:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Concluding remark.
Statement by Russavia[edit]Please note, that there is likely to be collateral damage in relation to both User:Vecrumba and User:Tammsalu. Given interactions at Talk:Estonian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic#Dubious, and given Vecrumba's revert of problems here, as per Talk:Courland_Pocket#McAteer.27s_book. If interaction ban sanctions are placed on me for my edit on Russia Today, then interaction ban sanctions should also be placed on these two editors. However, one will notice that I havnot reported anything to AE in these recent instances, because I refuse to use interaction bans and AE as a battleground tool to get sanctions placed on other editors, and there is a somewhat informal agreement between us to interact in instances which are productive. This is backed up by Vecrumba or Tammsalu not filing AE reports either. Biophys and Marek, on the other hand, have questions to answer in relation to their stalking of my edits. And using interaction bans as a battleground weapon. Biophys' arrival at Aeroflot, an article which I have been working on expanding and improving, was a case in point of Biophys using an interaction ban as a battleground weapon. Talk:Aeroflot is where the discussion is at. Note, that my removal of information is also supported by WP:BLP. His inclusion of Ivanov’s being in FSB insinuates that this position is somehow related to his position as Chairman on the Aeroflot board. This is a BLP violation, so my revert was more than warranted on that basis alone. I did post this on Igny’s talk page, but not as a call to arms, but rather exactly what was written; for advice on how to deal with Biophys’ obvious harrassment/hounding of myself. Given Biophys' continued veiled assertions to other editors that I am employed by the Russian government, and his provocative edits on Aeroflot, I did in fact retire. But, I refuse to be hounded from this project. Biophys has not edited the RT nor Controversies and criticisms of RT in the past, nor has he commented on the talk page. After his hounding of myself on Aeroflot, and his stalking of me to (article started by TLAM which I nommed for deletion), it is obvious he continues to stalk and hound me. He has admitted to stalking me in the past. Given Biophys’ further hounding at User_talk:Russavia#Hi, and given interactions by other editors with myself, one should ask Biophys why he has not also posted such messages on Vecrumba’s and Tammsalu’s talk pages. One can fairly assume he is using the interaction bans as a weapon. Therefore, I ask that Biophys, under WP:DIGWUREN discretionary sanctions, also be placed under a likewise interaction ban with myself, and given his blatant hounding, and BLP violation on Aeroflot, a topic ban from Aeroflot (and all associated articles, broadly construed). Marek is exactly the same. He has never edited the RT or Controversies article before, nor has he used the talk page. His appearance at Controversies and criticisms of RT is obvious stalking and baiting, in addition to a violation of his interaction ban, as per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern_European_mailing_list#Radeksz and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern_European_mailing_list#Editors_restricted. Claims of how they found articles should be dismissed, as per previous precedent at Wikipedia:EEML#Improper_coordination, and Biophys’ admission of past stalking. Marek’s assertion of myself stalking Vecrumba should also be dismissed outright, as I have edited the RT article before, and it is one of the few articles still on my watchlist, as I have plans in future to do some rewriting (in addition to trying to get video released under CC licence). I do concede to the point raised by Marek in there not being anything on the talk page of RT, this was a ‘’mistake’’ on my part, in that I did write up an explanation of why I removed information from the article, and also why I merged the POVFORK back to the main article, however due to having a million tabs open, and working on different things at the same time, it appears that I forgot to save it. It was an honest oversight on my part, and I apologise for that. If admins don’t see my ‘’partial’’ revert (this is not an outright revert of this) on RT as disruptive, and given that there have been continued mutual interactions between myself, Tammsalu and Vecrumba recently, I ask that the request against myself be dismissed as an obvious attempt by Biophys to use interaction bans as a weapon, and for WP:BOOMERANG to apply to him as per above evidence. If blocks for interaction ban violations are placed on myself, then it is not fair in any sense for this to only apply to myself, but on all editors. Russavia Let's dialogue 20:34, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
The following was copied from from Russavia's talk page:
Copied by SoWhy 15:11, 29 October 2011 (UTC) While I have been blocked for breaching my interaction ban, the issue of stalking/harrassment/hounding/baiting by both Biophys and Volunteer Marek is still active; even though Marek has been blocked for a week for breaking his interaction ban, the above is a separate issue that needs to be dealt with appropriately. In considering this, it is inherently going to be claimed that previous harrassment upon myself is an unproven meme. If one reads Wikipedia:EEML#Improper_coordination, it states:
Wikipedia:EEML#Editors_restricted is an indication of who was harrassed. Previous harrassment on myself is not a meme, it is evidential fact. To the current harrassment, information has already been provided in the request. I also am not assuming that there is any EEML-type co-ordinated harrassment on myself, but rather Biophys and Marek have each acted independently in their stalking/harrassment/hounding/baiting. FPaS has also noted that claims by Marek are unfounded. Marek's breach of the interaction ban on myself is a separate action to his stalking/baiting that needs to be dealt with. I would like this separate issue with both editors dealt with accordingly at this AE request. Russavia Let's dialogue 17:05, 27 October 2011 (UTC) copied by Jab7842 (talk) 01:04, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Russavia[edit]Comment by Volunteer Marek[edit]It was my understanding after the last round that "content edits" did not fall under the interaction ban. This was the excuse Russavia used last time, for his perennial kicking over of ant hills, and that is why he was let off the hook previously. But if that is true then the edits above are not part of the interaction ban. However, Russavia posting threats and insults to my talk page (he spared me the personal emails this time) [31] IS a violation of his interaction ban. And no, there was no "stalking" going on here. I noticed the page because of edits made by User:Galassi [32] and User:Lvivske [33] (note that these are two more editors whom Russavia is essentially reverting here) As to the content of the dispute, basically Russavia is trying to delete an article he doesn't like by first gutting it [34], [35], [36], [37] and then saying "oh look this article has hardly anything in it, let's just merge it into another article [38], tooh tooh dooh, nothing to see here, nope". Of course the proper thing to do in such situations - especially with controversial articles such as this one is to either start an AfD (which Russavia is not doing because he knows nobody will agree with him) or put an "Request for merge" tag on the article (ditto). Russavia claims that there's some discussion about this but I see nothing on the original talk page [39] and no comments by Russavia at the other article's talk page either [40]. All I see there is a discussion between Vecrumba and Galassi on one hand and User:Voyevoda and some fairly new user who's making personal attacks at Galassi, on the other. So if there's stalking going on, it's Russavia stalking Vecrumba not other way around. @TC: Nowhere have we allowed so-called "content edits" to be an exception to an interaction ban, and for good reason. - ah, ok, then I confess that I am honestly confused as to what does and does not fall under interaction bans. Last time I thought the argument was that content edits are not covered by them which is why Russavia was allowed to go around reverting people he has an interaction ban with. But if it is as you say, then that's actually a good thing - I very much agree that "content edits" should NOT be an exception to the interaction ban. Volunteer Marek 17:51, 26 October 2011 (UTC) @Tim - If you think that was an interaction ban violation, ok fine. But as Colchicum and Collect point out below, Russavia has been making these kinds of "interaction ban" violations (and even worse) for weeks and months, and nothing has been done about it. In the few times that somebody brought it up here on AE, AFAICR nothing was done (except OTHER editors were threatened), Russavia was not sanctioned for this behavior and there was some discussion somewhere about how content edits are not part of the interaction ban. So forgive me if all that past history gave me the wrong impression. If due to this report this interaction ban is finally going to be taken seriously and actually enforced (and this means allowing editors to bring these issues up without fear that Russavia's going to do his best to turn the whole thing around on them) then this positive - if it is real - trumps whatever (hopefully short) block you want to slap me with. As far as I'm concerned putting a stop to this bi-weekly practice of Russavia's of stirring shit up just to see if he can get away with it and in order to provoke others (so that he can turn around and cry about how they're stalking him), is the key here. If I could, I'd self revert that edit, now that apparently it seems IT IS an interaction ban violation. But Russavia's already done that for me. Volunteer Marek 20:39, 26 October 2011 (UTC) @Tothohwolf - Ok. Let's get this straight. NOBODOY'S HOUNDING OR STALKING RUSSAVIA. What has been happening over and over and over again over the last few months is that Russavia has decided that the interaction ban doesn't apply to him, and/or, that he wants to use it as a way of provoking conflict. So he has REPEATEDLY gone out there and made some very provocative edit which is at the same time a violation of their interaction ban - nominating another editor's article for AfD, going to articles another person is working on and slapping it up with nasty tags, and this time around deleting out-of-process an article by gutting it then changing it into a redirect. Then, when somebody says "you shouldn't do that, you violated your interaction ban", Russavia freaks out, starts launching threats and attacks at the person who brought up the interaction ban violation, screams to high heavens that he is being persecuted, posts to a whole bunch of people that he is being hounded, wraps himself in a cloak of victimhood, threatens everyone with boomerangs, and engages in embarrassing to watch displays of self pity. Then if it looks like all the above is not going to work to prevent a sanction, Russavia does things like claims that 'content edits are not covered by interection ban' or say "I will reply in the future, I have lots of evidence to show you" - and then stall for a week, present nothing except more hysterical accusations and have the request closed as "stale" (it freakin' works too! Ask TC) And if that doesn't work put up a "Retired" template on their talk page for a week. Let's get this crystal clear, cuz I'm so sick of having to put up with this sociopathic behavior: Russavia is the aggressor here, not the victim. He has been in all these past cases over the last year. And if you let him get away with, he will continue to do this to people. (My favorite is when he starts demanding that people 'assume good faith' towards him, in the very sentence in which he demands that the person who's supposed to agf him is banned from wikipedia) And as an aside, the way Miacek/Estlandia is trying to pursue personal grudges here is very disturbing. Volunteer Marek 14:29, 27 October 2011 (UTC) @FP@S - no, let's get something straight here. Neither myself, nor Vecrumba nor anyone else ever goes into articles which compromise something ilke 95% of Russavia's edits (stuff about aviation and diplomatic relations between countries) and starts fucking with him there. I, and others actually observe the interaction ban up to and including making "accidental" edits to articles Russavia edits. Every single one of these instances over the past year has involved Russavia going into an article that somebody else (that he has an interaction ban with) is active on and doing some big provocative edit just to stir up trouble or, hell, I dunno, because he can't help himself or something. Then you can argue about whether subsequent comments and edits AFTER Russavia kicked over yet another ant hill are also "interaction ban" violations or not. But jeez christ guys, this has been going on for at least six months now, the pattern of how this unfolds is obvious, and has been the same each time, so it's not like it's hard to tell who the instigator here is (hint: the same person in all these cases). So it's simply NOT TRUE that These people will edit the same articles, and they will have disagreements over them. - I stay away from topics Russavia is really interested in as do other people. It's ALWAYS Russavia coming in to mess with someone else's work. Just because Russavia is incapable of observing the interaction ban does not mean that interaction ban simply doesn't work - by saying that you're just legitimizing his actions here, which have been atrocious. Interaction bans would work just freakin' fine if the admins here had the commons sense and the will to enforce them, rather than letting it turn into this stoopid drama each time. This is why I'm perfectly fine with Timothy slapping a block on be for my revert of Russavia, as long as from now on - and you better believe I'm going to hold you to it - the interaction bans are actually enforced. This nonsense has to end. @PF@S - oh for christ sake, did you actually look at the history of the page or just bought in 100% into misinformation that Miacek/Estlandia fed you? The whole thing started because Russavia went into the article to revert Vecrumba (interaction ban violation but only if content edits fall under the scope) and then Russavia decided to pour salt on the wound by gutting the article and turning it into a redirect - apparently it's not enough for him to just revert somebody he has an interaction ban with but he also HAD TO make sure Vecrumba got the message by shatting all over that article. And yes I find this kind of vicious behavior - by somebody who's not even supposed to be anywhere near Vecrumba's edits - disgusting (asterisk). Which is why, after seeing it for unrelated reason, I reverted Russavia's out-of-process-deletion of the article. Which was an interaction ban violation only if content edits fall under the scope of the interaction ban. If Tim is right below, then yes, I shouldn't have done it. Doesn't change the fact one bit that this was another instance where Russavia started up shit and everything else was/is just a response to it. Here, let me spell it out, since some people have trouble seeing the pattern: An algorithm for perpetual trouble at AE 1. Russavia goes in and does some kind of big provocative edit to some article as a display that he is flaunting the interaction ban. Some instances of this have involved:
There's more examples but I don't feel like looking through the history (lest I be accused of stalking). See comments by Colchicum and Collect below. 2. The person who is being reverted/attacked is not sure what to do. If they revert back that could be an interaction ban violation. If they report it to AE Russavia will start with his accusations, hysterics, demands for BOOMERANG and this kind of stupid drama will ensue. Based on previous experience (iterations of this algorithm) they know that AE is a spin of the roulette wheel (ever since Sandstein left anyway). If they do nothing and ignore it then go back to step 1, as Russavia is only encouraged to try his luck further. 3. If the person who is being reverted/attacked decided to take it to AE it goes to AE. If they decide to revert or comment on it it still goes to AE because Russavia (who's lying above about the fact that he doesn't use AE to get his opponents banned. He's filed quite a number of AE reports over the years) or one of his friends files a report on the revert. If they decide to leave a polite comment - as Biophys (who doesn't have an interaction ban with Russavia) to the effect that this was an interaction ban violation - Russavia responds with threats, attacks, and insults. Calls people "fools" and worse. One way or another it still winds up at AE. 4. At AE it always starts simple and then turns messy very fast. Usually Russavia stalls by claiming he has some "evidence" or is "in contact with ArbCom" or some other nonsense which never seems to pan out. People who have no clue comment. People who should have a clue but don't comment. Sometimes Arbs get involved. Drama ensues. Eventually either Russavia gets a slap on the wrist (that has actually only happened once so far), somebody says something confusing like making a claim that content edits are not covered, it gets closed as stale or Russavia puts up a "Retired" tag on his talk page and waits out the storm. 5. Fast forward two weeks. Go back to step 1. Seriously, you could program bots to both generate this drama and admin it it's so repetitive and predictable by now. (asterisk)(and the fact that some people are keen to enable this behavior and then they turn around and shake their heads and say "oh these Eastern Europeans, they'll always fight amongst each other, there's no hope" after they pretty much ensured that these problems don't get solved, is hypocritical, self-righteous and frankly deeply misguided. Let me go into Macedonian topics, spent my time defending whoever happens to be causing the most trouble there and pontificate about how Future Perfect and his Balkans are just predisposed to perennial trouble. Please!) Comment by Colchicum[edit]This is not restricted to RT (TV network). Not sure about the others, but Russavia has been violating his interaction bans for weeks, behaving as if they didn't exist. Look at this comment. Such a comment on a partisan user's talkpage certainly cannot be construed as an instance of necessary dispute resolution. See also his edits at Aeroflot and Talk:Aeroflot, in particular this one: "I really don't care if I am banned from interacting with you Biophys.". See also this amendment request. Colchicum (talk) 19:25, 26 October 2011 (UTC) Neither Courland Pocket nor Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic are within the scope of Russavia's day-to-day editing. Vecrumba, to the contrary, has been one of the main contributors to these articles. So Russavia's edits look very much like yet another example of the behavior described by VM here, which was found concerning by several arbitrators. Colchicum (talk) 20:57, 26 October 2011 (UTC) @FPS (1) And you are wrong here. Vecrumba edited RT (TV network) before Russavia arrived there with his merge of Controversies and criticisms of RT (2) Biophys is not subject to any interaction ban. Colchicum (talk) 22:25, 27 October 2011 (UTC) Comment by Collect[edit]Russavia has done her best to make those who were willing to give her leeway (such as I) rethink that position. I have always spoken against Draconian solutions, but Russavia has operated on the misapprehension that all who do not back her are her enemy (sigh). In the case at hand, "blocks all around" would reward her behaviour, which I fear is unwise. The iterated debate system of saying that one will respond at a future date, or that one is "retired" for some small period of time, especially when such a responses is not then made, is also a problem. Collect (talk) 19:44, 26 October 2011 (UTC) Comment by Lothar von Richthofen[edit]Blocks, bans, and other assorted sanctions aside, I think that Russavia is in dire need of a wikibreak. The language used in his posts here and the pages brought up by other editors is alarmingly aggressive and paranoid. I can understand perhaps that he is feeling rather stressed by what he perceives to be stalking and hounding, but editing here has clearly become a major psychological stressor for him, and it will make him difficult to deal with here. Maybe a block would have the effect of forcing him to take a break, but I can't imagine that said break would do anything to ease the tension evident here; more likely, it would just make things worse. A voluntary break from all of this, on the other hand, would I think be the best way for him to cool off. IMO.... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:02, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
As far as "hounding" goes, it should be mentioned that User:The Last Angry Man has announced that he is leaving Wikipedia due to constant persecution by other editors. He specifically mentions repeated accusations of sockpuppetry. Russavia participated in this to a significant extent; for example, we see here a highly abusive post by Russavia ("Ummmm, is anyone ignoring the fact that TLAM is 110% a sockpuppet of User:Marknutley? Why on earth is ANY admin considering anything but placing a "Banned for sockpuppetry" notice on the userpage of TLAM.") directed against TLAM. I recall other incidents, though I would have to dig around a bit. Russavia's squawking about persecution looks a little like unclean hands in light of this. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:22, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Greyhood[edit]As far as I understand, Russavia is perfectly entitled to edit the articles he wants to edit, including the article RT (TV network). But the interaction ban as interpreted by people here effectively bars him from editing certain articles, which means depriving him of a basic editor's right. Or perhaps he is just not expected to make edit summaries addressed to the people he is prohibited to interact with? But the edits on contentious subjects should be properly explained, and it doesn't make sense when upholding the interaction ban leads to the breaking of a basic Wikipedia policy. And doesn't the necessary edit summaries fall into the category of the "necessary dispute resolution", which is stated in the restriction? GreyHood Talk 21:28, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Vecrumba[edit]Given various requests against myself including my violation of the interaction ban (I have my reservations about interaction bans according at least temporary article ownership between two editors, but another topic), Russavia would be fully aware of the consequences of his revert. Regarding the content at RT, indications of state ownership had been removed and replaced with RT publicity statements some time ago. I had re-inserted cited content from unbiased, non-aligned sources which appropriately indicates RT is Russian state owned and state controlled media, a reference for each aspect: both ownership and control. IMHO, Russavia's revert (any mention of the Russian state from the lead) is compounded by his deletion of appropriately sourced content with unsourced allegations of POV, that is, classic WP:BATTLEFIELD edit warring. As for "hounding" allegations, that would appear to be any content edit that disagrees with Russavia's personal POV. I resent Russavia's continuous blatantly false and tiresome victimology that paints myself and others out to have nothing better to do than to attack him—and that such conduct continues to be coddled and even excused by other editors. (While I don't like bringing up EEML, I did read through my personal archive at one point and I mentioned Russavia less than a handful of times and never in regard to anything other than his editorial content contentions.) Russavia has clearly and repeatedly proven themselves incapable of civil conduct regarding any content having to do with the Soviet legacy. (PЄTЄRS P.S. Russavia can continue to edit outside the Soviet geopolitical/historical legacy and representations of official Russia all he likes, I have no desire to ban constructive contributions of content. No one is seeking to "hound" Russavia from anything. PЄTЄRS P.P.S. As for "partisanship", it doesn't get much more partisan than Russavia immediately reporting me for editing Aspic. So let's not go there and let's please stick to the topic. PЄTЄRS
I struck my comment on welcoming debate and dialog as the allegations of harassment and hounding continue. Let's just stick to Russia Today for the moment.
When is deletion of an article (critical of official Russian state media) not a delete? When it is the "undoing of a POV fork" created without "discussion and consensus"--a complete and gross misrepresentation, as no content fork/duplication was ever involved. The dedicated controversies and criticisms article was created by editor Sleetman (not an "involved party") on May 5, 2011. That same day, Russavia was already in at the article with several edits, including tagging it as POV with no prior discussion, as indicated in the revert of said undiscussed (and therefore WP:IDONTLIKEIT) tagging. As already mentioned, the criticisms article was not a POV FORK (that is, duplicating content to make a POV point), it was the result of removing said content from the RT article to (IMHO) not overburden the RT article with criticisms, which could leave it open to charges of coatracking. Eventually, Russavia reintegrated the content (note the prior edit summary comment, after calling my noting in multiple source that RT is state owned and controlled "presenting a particular POV"--and what would that be? That RT is state owned and controlled is an opinion?) and then in a series of edits removed pro-Putin bias, and re-tagged as POV the controversies and criticisms--all flaunting the interaction ban at this point, and again, no discussion as to what POV was being tagged--in fact, Russavia's last comments there are back in May. Russavia rants about POV FORKS in his edit comments, and uses his rants as cover to delete separate articles, to merge content and tag said content without a single comment at article talk, etc., etc., etc. Clearly Russavia stalked my edit at RT and decided to deal with his dissatisfaction that I reputably indicated RT was state owned and controlled with a full frontal assault, IMHO, then waiting for the first person to note his disruptive behavior and then attack that individual or individuals for "hounding." That's rich. Talk about your classic victim-blaming load of utter and complete bullshit. Any further wielding of EEML as a shield for gross misconduct should WP:BOOMERANG. My well of WP:AGF regarding Russavia where the Soviet legacy and Russian politics are concerned is exhausted. PЄTЄRS Regarding Russavia's latest statement disputing Colchicum:
Russavia's sole purpose in showing up at any article having to do with the Soviet legacy or Russia's publicity image appears to only be to wipe out any content that fails to meet his Russophile anything-that-is-not-my-POV-is-"POV" agenda. Show me one positive contribution in that arena of articles that didn't disrupt an article and has associated with it a collegial edit summary, not one laced with innuendo, accusations, and expletives. Oh yes, the cherry on top of the cake, Russavia wraps their latest self-righteous total misrepresentation with let's WP:WHACK another editor who points out Russavia's conduct for what it is. PЄTЄRS As Biophys has had themselves deleted, I am formally requesting this remain open and a decision rendered that is more than "nobody's said anything the last few days, besides, the requesting editor has deleted themselves, stale and close." You who have volunteered to make WP a collegial place for editors working together, please render a decision which
Whatever follows hereafter, for better or worse, is of your making. PЄTЄRS
Comment by uninvolved Tothwolf[edit]I'm pretty much as uninvolved as it gets with regards to Russavia and their fan club, but having seen this flare up from various user talk pages and having witnessed the original EEML case, I have a few things I'd like to add myself. As some of the community and current ArbCom members know, I had my own very bad experience with being "hounded" here on Wikipedia, which after an ArbCom case that basically resolved nothing, included (among other things) a number of attempts to game AE to further harass. It was only after a lengthy AN/I discussion and a final attempt to game AE that it turned into a WP:BOOMERANG and was more or less resolved. What I gained from the awful experience was the understanding of just how easy it is for someone to game the system, and especially when more than one person is working together to do so. I made some comments about this during the AESH case which can be found here and here. (Further background for those interested can be found via the links at the top of my talk page.) My own background out of the way, if Biophys (or another editor) is indeed hounding Russavia, then it absolutely needs to be dealt with right away because speaking from first hand experience, ignoring such problems makes things much worse down the road. With regards to various interaction bans, if multiple editors are violating their editing restrictions, then either all need to be sanctioned, or none should be sanctioned. If they can collaborate and not be disruptive to the larger project (including being mindful of WP:BRD), then perhaps the editing restriction itself needs to be modified? Editing restrictions should (ideally) exist only to prevent disruption to the project and not to "punish" someone. On the other hand, if disruption of the larger project is still occurring, then various topic bans for all involved might be the only way to resolve things. Russavia, as far as "hounding" goes, I wish I could offer more advice, but about the only things I can suggest is keep your cool (I know, it's very hard), avoid the areas where the hounding occurs (yes, those who wish to hound will purposefully choose topics which you contributed to the most), work on something else (commons, etc), and keep an off-wiki timeline with diffs, dates, usernames, and notes (including hounding towards editors other than yourself by those who've hounded you). On the advice of a number of administrators and other community members, this is what I finally did, and I wish I had done it earlier on. Having that material available later was the beginning of finally getting my own "hounding" problem resolved because it allowed uninvolved members of the community a means to actually have a view of the larger picture and see the underlying behavioural patterns. --Tothwolf (talk) 07:11, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Estlandia[edit]I noticed Russavia's comment on Volunteer Marek's talk page, as I watchlist both VM's and Russavia's user (talk) pages and I decided to take a cursory look on the issue. As Volunteer Marek had indeed never edited the Russia Today or Controversies and criticisms of RT article before nor did he use the talk page, his appearance at Controversies can be seen as stalking, besides it was in violation of his interaction ban with Russavia (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern_European_mailing_list#Radeksz and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern_European_mailing_list#Editors_restricted). Whilst Russavia's reaction at VM's talk page was inappropriate, given the interaction ban, and he should have used proper channels, it was still a a reaction hinting to a problem. I suggest the arbitrators consider this issue carefully, since as Tothwolf has rightly said, ignoring the problem would let the matter get worse over time. Especially so, if we consider the chronic problems associated with some of the above mentioned accounts, Volunteer Marek included (tag-teaming and national POV pushing - as per Arbcom findings of 2009 -, nasty personal assaults to the point of comparing his opponents with Holocaust deniers [41] [42] (“I only have a problem with authors, German or otherwise, who engage in historical revisionism and Holocaust denial”), editors who make Molobo's/Volunteer Marek's unpalatable article more compliant with our guidelines supposedly produce “extremist right wing propaganda bullshit” [43] and so on and so forth). Ever re-surging problems with Volunteer Marek have been the subject of a number of arbitration enforcement requests [44], last time discussed in an arbitration enforcement thread just a couple of weeks ago, where it was decided not to take any action that time. I suggest taking action this time. Estlandia (dialogue) 12:41, 27 October 2011 (UTC) Comment by Piotrus[edit]Self-censored per [45]. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 01:45, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment by BorisG[edit]By blocking Russavia and another editor, the admins have asserted that the AE request has merit. Thus I cannot see why they are crticising Biophys for his action. Seems he has done the right thing. We are not here to analyse motivations, only actions and their consequencies. It would be a different story of course if he was under an i-ban. Does this make sense? - BorisG (talk) 15:02, 29 October 2011 (UTC) Comment by Paul Siebert[edit]This Lothar's post is hardly an indication of any misbehaviour of Russavia. When I read this it becomes clear that many users, starting from Sander Sade and ending with Prioryman are absolutely sure that TLAM and MN are the same person. Interestingly, Sander Sade genuinely believes that ArbCom simply authorised a third reincarnation of MN under the name "TLAM" (which obviously is not the case). I myself have a double feeling about that: although I was a person who placed a welcome template on the TLAM's talk page greeting him as a new editor, who was editing anonymously before, sometimes I have a feeling that when I am interacting with TLAM I am dealing with Tentontunic/MN. The problem is that ArbCom seems to have some very serious evidences that TLAM and MN are different persons (which seem to outweigh the behavioural evidences available for us), but decided not to explain us what these evidences are (even very generally). As a result, since we have no idea on what these evidences are, and since the behavioural evidences unequivocally testify that we deal with the same person, many users do the same mistake equating MN and TLAM. However, that is not a Russavia's fault. ArbCom should probably provide some additional explanations to dispel our doubts.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:38, 4 November 2011 (UTC) One more general comment. As we all know, User: Hodja Nasreddin is a new account that replaced the previous account User: Biophys. The history of the account "Biophys" is not available for ordinary users any more. This replacement seems to be made within the frames to the procedure that is called clean start. However, our policy specifies that the "clean-start accounts should not return to old topic areas, editing patterns, or behavior previously identified as problematic, and should be careful not to do anything that looks like an attempt to evade scrutiny. A clean start is permitted only if there are no active bans, blocks, or sanctions in place against the old account." In connection to that I would like to know if all these criteria have been met here, and, in particular, if this request is in accordance with Hodja Nasreddin's clean start.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:55, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Russavia[edit]
Note to admins: I have posted on EdJohnston and T. Canens talk pages advising them that the harrassment is going to be dealt with at this request. I am also asking other admins that, as per the big banner at the top of the page, all issues (read: harrassment) raised in this AE request be dealt with right here, right now. Unclean hands and all that. Russavia Let's dialogue 02:39, 27 October 2011 (UTC) Russavia and Volunteer Marek each blocked 1 week for violating interaction ban. Should that cover it, or did I miss someone? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:14, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Closing as no further action taken. See WP:A/R/C#Russavia, Biophys, etc.. T. Canens (talk) 18:00, 9 November 2011 (UTC) |
Brewcrewer
[edit]| No action taken. EdJohnston (talk) 03:50, 11 November 2011 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Brewcrewer[edit]
Which brings us to today. The very next edit that brewcrewer makes is likewise to a page that he had never edited, and likewise is an ill-advised revert that goes against established consensus (a bit like this one, but thats another matter). Brewcrewer's hounding has reached disruptive levels as he is not only annoying other editors, namely me, but he is also damaging the content of the encyclopedia. Serious editors should not have to deal with these dive-in attacks whose sole purpose is to instigate further edit wars. Brewcrewer is violating both the discretionary sanctions by behaving like this as well as WP:HOUND and he is ignoring guidelines that took years to establish a consensus for. Because there is nearly no actual content generated by brewcrewer in the topic area, I think a topic ban is called for. At least some way of ensuring that he is not able to continue disruptively and tendentiously hounding other editors.
Discussion concerning Brewcrewer[edit]Statement by Brewcrewer[edit]Responding to the points above:
Nableezy's claim that I "do[] not add much content in the ARBPIA topic area" is both unnecessary and untrue. A perusal of my user page will reveal links to some of the articles I started, and includes 2004 Ashdod Port bombings, Roof knocking, Palestinian land laws, Palestine Regiment, among many others that I made substantial edits to without starting or that are just simply not listed. Indeed it is hard to make 50k+ edits without adding content. The rest of Nableezy's comment are addressed above and don't need repeating. I have thousands of articles relating to Israel on my watchlist. This stalking claim is baseless. I would kindly request that administrators analyze whether Nableezy is making disproportionate baseless claim here at AE. I don't want to get drawn into this drama fest so I will not be responding to further counterclaims. Any reasonable specific requests for clarification can be made on my talk page. Thank you.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:22, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Brewcrewer[edit]Statement by Pantherskin[edit]It seems that it is actually Nableezy who hounds Brewcrewer, see for example this edit [56] on an article that Nableezy never edited before. In any case, it does not seem they two get along well, and an interaction might be the best solution. Pantherskin (talk) 21:27, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Michael Netzer[edit]Nableezy's removal of "Judea and Samaria" from Alon_Shvut and attempted enforcement of an across-the-board ban of the term is not at all supported by WP:WESTBANK, but rather undermines the very reason the guidelines were drafted. There is no such policy there or anywhere else. His reasoning is strongly opinionated, as is his contempt for the term. This can cause agitation and make it difficult to discuss the essential issues in goodwill. He is also very sensitive to criticism, which I think is a redeeming virtue if it's not taken to an extreme. Still, it doesn't seem Brewcrewer intended what he said as a personal offense. MichaelNetzer (talk) 23:40, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Plot Spoiler[edit]How many more times are we going to allow Nableezy to abuse the AE system to intimidate and push around editors to get his way? Nableezy is a Battleground editor prima inter pares, and every time he pursues a frivolous AE it just inflames the situation further. Further, Nableezy actually employs the stalking and hounding techniques he accuses others of using. Wherever I go, he seems to quickly follow. He just made this first edits both to MV Mavi Marmara [57] and Emergency Committee for Israel [58] shortly after I appeared there. He also has a penchant for trying to afd articles I'm involved in [59]. All in all, a supreme battleground editor like Nableezy should be restricted in his use of AE and be sanctioned everytime he pursues a frivolous AE like this one. It's not fair for the admins that have to sort through all this garbage and all the other editors that Nableezy tries to drag down with him. Plot Spoiler (talk) 14:18, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Jiujitsuguy[edit]
Result concerning Brewcrewer[edit]
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Debresser
[edit]| Debresser's appeal of the topic ban imposed by Gwen Gale is declined. EdJohnston (talk) 03:43, 11 November 2011 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Statement by Debresser[edit]In the above link to my talkpage you will find the following:
To this I have replied there the following:
On the WP:ANI discussion I was referred here for this matter, which I hereby ask you to consider and rule upon. Debresser (talk) 14:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC) To elaborate a little upon the last point.
Of course you are right. But we are not talking about this being my everyday behavior. In addition, consider the possibility that my claim of antisemitism was correct. Surely in such a case it would have been a bad thing if I weren't allowed to make it. We would want to give free leash to that, would we? Debresser (talk) 15:45, 6 November 2011 (UTC) Statement by Gwen Gale[edit]Statement by EdJohnston[edit]
Statement by (involved editor 1)[edit]Statement by (involved editor 2)[edit]Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Debresser[edit]If someone doesn't have the common sense and decency as a human being to refrain from labeling other editors antisemites, then they should be removed from this project, IMO. This is why the I-P topic area, and related ones, are such a cesspool; deplorable people like this who feel it is their right to dismiss their wiki-opponents as racists. Tarc (talk) 14:18, 6 November 2011 (UTC) Result of the appeal by Debresser[edit]
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| Not a request for enforcement. EdJohnston (talk) 03:57, 11 November 2011 (UTC) |
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Wasn't that a block under ArbCom sanctions? Shouldn't it have been discussed here before being reversed? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 16:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
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Jonchapple
[edit]| Blocked three weeks for violation of his WP:TROUBLES topic ban. EdJohnston (talk) 03:59, 11 November 2011 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Jonchapple[edit]
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case Per Arbitation Enforcement imposed Topic Ban "Violation" Arbitation Enforcement imposed Probation "Violation" The article Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles, along with other articles relating to The Troubles, is currently subject to active arbitration remedies, as laid out during a 2007 Arbitration case, and amended by community consensus in 2008 and 2009. All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism
Discussion concerning Jonchapple[edit]Statement by Jonchapple[edit]Creating a new shortcut, reverting blanking/vandalism and removing excess blue links from disambiguation pages? Don't think you have a case this time. JonCTalk 16:07, 10 November 2011 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Jonchapple[edit]Agree with Mkativerata that the attempts to mislead on the removal of "Derry" by claiming he was only removing bluelinks calls for a longer block. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:43, 10 November 2011 (UTC) Result concerning Jonchapple[edit]
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nableezy
[edit]| Filer indeffed as a sock. |
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Request concerning nableezy[edit]
Discussion concerning nableezy[edit]Statement by nableezy[edit]Comments by others about the request concerning nableezy[edit]Result concerning nableezy[edit]
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