Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive803

wikihounding by Zipvox

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Brand new account Zipvox, created account today, and immediately proceeded to propose mergers for 3 articles I have created, on 3 unrelated subjects. [1] No discussion or rationale for any of the proposals. 2 of the articles contain extensive citations and signs of notability, the third is a simple legal term, with notable examples of the use of that term. Highly likely this is a sock, of somebody I have annoyed, but I have no idea who. Request a trouting, warning, possible SPI, and reversion of the merge requests as wikihounding. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:08, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

SPI needs some information about the sock puppet or puppeteer too (Please use this instead for a SPI complaint). A user asking for a merge is not a bad thing and anyway the merge wont happen unless it is reasonable. With your interaction with the user already you could have asked this question politely on the editors talk page too instead of dragging this to the ANI, which I don't say is a wrong thing, but i feel you should utilize personal communication with the user as a first try.  A m i t  ❤  16:58, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Further hounding and stalking from the same user. And for the record, I did comment about this on the user's page prior to reporting, and he replied "glad you like it". He has nominated an additional article I have created for deletion. The article is somewhat borderline, but this user clearly has some sort of vendetta against me and is crawling through my contributions. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:18, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

One merger proposal is not a bad thing. That's very different from three merger proposals in two minutes for articles that are completely unrelated to each other (Innominate jury, Player preferences among new and old violins, Sonata Mulattica) except for their creator. And then you go and create Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of artworks with contested provenance a few hours later — again, totally unrelated except for the creator. Near the top of the page right now, there's a debate about wikistalking: "If I counted correctly there are about 9500 edits in the same time period [six months]. Which means the 22 edits identified are less than one quarter of one per cent of Andy's edits. This isn't presented as definitive proof, but if editor A targets editor B in violation of policy, I would expect significantly higher percentages." Here we have someone who begins his editing career with 100% of his edits following someone else's. This is intentional beyond a reasonable doubt, so my next edit will be the placement of {{SockBlock}} on User talk:Zipvox. Nyttend (talk) 20:05, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Anonymous IP accusing me of being a sock of JarlaxleArtemis

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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IP address 64.134.67.33 left a rather uncouth message on my talk page, accusing me of being the notorious sockmaster. Needless to say, this accusation is 100% inaccurate. It's one of only two edits made by this IP, so I'm assuming he's edited under another name before? Perhaps CU could help here. Dozzzzzzzzzing off (talk) 15:23, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I see no such accusation. What specifically about the message leads you to infer that the editor thinks you are that particular vandal, and what makes you believe that this is a matter for WP:ANI? We don't haul users over to SPI just because they're precocious. If we did then you yourself would have been the subject of such a report. —Psychonaut (talk) 15:40, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

He accused me of being "a perma 15-year-old who's fucked with Wikipedia with laserlike asspie focus for almost a whole decade"---that does kind of narrow it down, no? Moreover, it's the day after I made some minor (grammatical) edits to JA's LTA page. No, an SPI report on him is not necessary, and I did kind of jump the gun in that regard. I just thought such an accusatory (some might say defamatory) message was worth reporting to somebody. Dozzzzzzzzzing off (talk) 15:49, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

• Blocked 12 hours for trolling. That is a hotspot IP, it seems, so that is about as good as we can do. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | © | WER 17:13, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I don't think anything more than that should generally be done to a public IP, anyway; too much collateral damage. (Of course, that's just my two cents.) Dozzzzzzzzzing off (talk) 20:07, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Longtime admin needs advice about WP:BITE

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User talk:Ceilingtile1234 has seen a rather harshly worded block, and I wonder if anyone can offer the administrator concerned some advice about WP:BITE. I also wonder if someone can help out the presumably well-intentioned new editor involved.

I looked for a less confrontational way to raise this, since I have already given the admin some advice on his talk page in the past, but WP:WQA seems to have been discontinued. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:43, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

The person had this previously explained to them. I don't see a problem here. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 02:47, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Whatever happened to this? Granted, it may appear as a SPA - however, a less harsher explanation about our policies would have been a better path. The user did state "I am..." which indicates it's a singular individual. "We" was in reference to the "Board of Commissioners". The user was obviously reaching out for the best way to offer the knoweldge and information they wanted to share. I don't actually see anything wrong with the account. Dusti^*poke* 02:51, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

IMHO, this report is highly inappropriate because Demiurge never even contacted Orange Mike about his concerns in this matter - regardless of any previous, similar matters - let alone have a discussion with him about it. Coming straight to AN/I and completely bypassing less hostile options - regardless of whether OM's tone or decision was appropriate or not - will certainly not earn my support. And contrary to the claims that Ceilingtile intended to be the only one using the account to make edits, his comments clearly indicate otherwise. S/he said, "our organization has a vested interest in the content written on the Wikipedia page" and "we recently established a Wikipedia account to offer edits and improvements to the page" (emphasis added). Further, Ceilingtile makes it clear that their purpose in creating the account is "to provide residents, visitors, and external viewers with the most up-to-date and factual information regarding St. Johns County". In other words, they want to use the Wikipedia article as a promotional tool for their county. The editor goes even further by saying, "our organization has a vested interest in the content written on the Wikipedia page", which only reinforces the fact that the account was to be used solely for promotional purposes. While I commend Ceilingtile for acknowledging their intention to share the account and to use it to promote the county, we have clear guidelines about how to address those two issues. And perhaps some are not aware of this, but OM did not say that the PR people involved could not create individual accounts and edit properly to avoid any COI improprieties. In fact, he said in the help desk discussion that they could do that. Again, I credit the county's PR/communications representative for posting at the help desk and admitting their role and purpose, but this AN/I report is about the alleged inappropriate behavior of an admin before anyone even had a conversation with him about it. That's just wrong. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 03:36, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

We get a lot of these on IRC as for the help channel; while this is not an IRC matter; the nature of the "we" and this issue is really common. The editor made one content edit and posted good-faith attempts to inform and explain to the responders and connected people. The user behind this may represent a county, but such the reaction was over the top and severe. AGF applies and this matter has typically been resolved through proper discussion and not a block. I've experienced dozens of such cases. Most of the information they put up is beneficial, but with a bad promotional tone that belies knowledge of what Wikipedia is. We are not a social or business site; assume ignorance before malice. I'll make a comment on the talk page for the user about the issue. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:08, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Chris. While I respect your obviously well-meaning comments, I feel they miss the most important point. Demiurge started this report solely to address Orange Mike's alleged bitey tone to Ceilingtile, yet never spoke one word to him about it. In fact, no one ever had a conversation with OM about this matter - either about his tone or the block itself. Since when do we bring an experienced editor, let alone an admin, to ANI before they've even been given a chance to say one word about a matter? Frankly, I think it's outrageous that Demiurge brought this here under these circumstances. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 05:31, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your words of wisdom here, IP. Actually, you seem misinformed. I had already asked OrangeMike, as recently as 17th June, "may I ask, Orangemike, why you reverted unsourced contentious material back into a biography of a living person?" OrangeMike, for whatever reason, was unable or unwilling to provide a rational explanation for having done so.

And no, there is no "let alone an admin" here... admins are expected to set a higher standard and to display, at the least, competence. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:44, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

The issue is his editing. Are you able to offer him advice about that? Let's hope so. Because otherwise, sooner or later, either a topic ban from BLPs or a topic ban from causing trouble at the helpdesk, is going to be the next step. Possibly both. Advise him while you can. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 07:00, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Demiurge, your explanation for completely bypassing any attempts at discussion about this matter with OM makes no sense at all. It makes me even more concerned about your actions and now possible motives. What you have just said is that you came straight to ANI about this matter because of the fact that you talked to OM about a revert he made 11 days ago. What in heaven's name does an edit he made a couple weeks ago have to do with today's issue? And although you showed the diffs for the June 17 revert and your comment about it on his talk page, the diff you failed to show us here is OM's response to you just 23 minutes later, which was very courteous and explained what happened. However, you falsely presented the situation in a way that made it seem like he had terrible motives and acted poorly. Now, as far as this issue, you claimed at the top of this thread that you "looked for a less confrontational way to raise this" before coming to ANI. So please show us the diffs of where you had a discussion with Mike about the matter with Ceilingtile, or even brought your complaint to his attention. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 07:31, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

You can impugn my "motives" all you like, but I think they are crystal clear - I don't want an admin stalking help pages to hand out blocks every time they see a good faith request for help from someone who might have a COI. Especially not when the same admin appears not to understand or respect a basic policy like WP:BLP. You not understanding that either does indeed give me pause for thought, but I don't think we'll be dealing with that in this thread. You and your orange-coloured friend have been given a chance to clean up your act. You can take it or leave it. That is all. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 07:41, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Demiurge, it's amazing how you started this report by talking about one allegation about OM: that he was bitey to a new editor. There wasn't one word about any other issues with him. Yet now, all of a sudden, you claim that the "issue is about his editing" and that he should be topic banned from BLPs and the help desk; and, worse, you present absolutely no diffs to back up any of these new allegations. What exactly are you trying to prove? You sarcastically asked me if I am able to offer OM advice. Actually, I think that the one who clearly needs "advice" is you. I'm sorry, but it would definitely not be unreasonable for an editor to seriously question your motives? You bring an admin you had a problem with recently to ANI, without any attempt at discussion whatsoever; you misrepresent his behavior on an edit from a couple weeks ago, and now you completely change your reason for starting this discussion and expand it into something even more sinister. You also falsely claimed that I said we should "let alone an admin". Anyone can read exactly what I wrote (above): "Since when do we bring an experienced editor, let alone an admin, to ANI before they've even been given a chance to say one word about a matter?" You apparently don't understand that the term "let alone" in that context means "especially". And, most importantly, you also failed to reference the key part at the end of the sentence about bringing him here without ever talking to him about it. Your behavior in this matter is very inappropriate and really needs to stop. And comments like "You and your orange-coloured friend have been given a chance to clean up your act" are definitely not going to be productive for you. That comment in itself shows that you cannot be taken seriously. I would suggest withdrawing this report and doing what you should've done in the first place: talking to Orange Mike directly, on his talk page. Otherwise, I think you should be blocked for bit if you continue your disruptive actions here. Btw, you still haven't shown us any diffs that prove your claim that you "looked for a less confrontational way to raise this" matter before coming to ANI. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 08:07, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I would ask that an admin please review Demiurge's behavior in this thread. Besides the sarcasm, condescension and overall incivility, more importantly the drastic changes in his reasons for filing this report, his multiple allegations against Orange Mike which have no diffs to back them up, his misrepresentation of certain facts, and of course his apparent failure to attempt any discussion of the issue (whichever one it is) with the editor being reported. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 08:27, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

This is about par for the course for the interactions I've seen or been involved with Demiurge, he acts like a jerk most of the time. That being said his behavior here is not block worthy it's just an example of bad faith and a slight bit WP:POINTy. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 08:59, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I just noticed that the instructions at the top of this page say, "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page." That clearly was not done, nor or even attempted. Therefore, I would suggest closing this discussion, before Demiurge ends up getting himself blocked. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 09:28, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Did you miss the point where Demiurge has discussed this in the past with OrangeMike ... I think as recently as June 17th? Your participation in this thread is becoming disruptive, and your suggestions are merely making a mockery of things. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:20, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, I can't tell if you're even being serious. But, I'll assume you are. So... he discussed what with OrangeMike?? The completely unrelated issue, about a revert made almost two weeks ago? The one where Mike responded courteously minutes later and explained what happened? Where's the discussion with OM before coming here about this issue with Ceilingtile? And what exactly is the issue? First, it was about OM being mean to a new editor. Then it became about his overall editing. Then it was about his BLP and help desk participation. So which one is this about? And what suggestions are a mockery? The one where I told him he should have discussed this matter with OM on his talk page instead of coming straight to ANI? Or the one where I told him not to misrepresent the facts and to present diffs to back up his various allegations. Maybe you are just joking around, I don't know. ;) --76.189.109.155 (talk) 11:53, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree with BWilkins. You're mischaracterizing a good faith effort to get more input to this (relatively minor) issue and you're doing it disruptively. Please stop. Let Orangemike join the discussion and speak for himself. I'm sure that he was doing what he thought was right, and a gentle nudge to dial it back a little can only benefit editor retention. - MrX 12:30, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, considering Orange Mike has the "editor retention" tag on the talk page. Editors are not here 24/7, but he is capable of speaking for himself. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 12:45, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, exactly... OM is capable of speaking for himself. So why didn't Demiurge even give him the opportunity to do that... on his talk page.. before reporting him at ANI? MrX and Chris... you seem very nice, but the point is that Demiurge made zero attempt to discuss this matter with OM before coming here. That's the long and short of it (putting aside all of the unsubstantiated claims, condescension, etc.) We should not even be here discussing OM's block of the editor since Demiurge didn't even attempt to have a conversation with him about it. ANI's own instructions say to talk to the edtior on their talk page first about the matter before coming here. Was that done?? I see that MrX was respectful enough to start a courteous conversation on OM's talk page. But then, instead of waiting to give OM the opportunity to respond - it was late in the evening and OM was apparently done editing for the night - Demiurge inexplicably chose to file a report here just 15 minutes later, and then of course post the ANI notice on OM's page, right below MrX's comment. So Demiurge was able to take the time to start an ANI and post the notice, but he couldn't just post a comment to OM to begin with, stating his concerns about the block? And just wait for a reply? I'm sorry, but none of Demiurge's actions make sense; even if he's totally correct about the legitimacy of the block or the tone with which it was delivered. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 13:01, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

This is your final warning. Any further posts by you in this thread will result in a block for wP:DISRUPT - your actions show a lack of understanding of Wikipedia and it's methods. Indeed, you should be well-aware that OM has been brought to AN/ANI numerous times for this same situation (go ahead, look it up). I almost removed the above post as trolling - which it is - however, it made more sense to provide you one final warning to stop (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:16, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Not quite, Bwilkins. In the future, I suggest you stop abusing your authority by attempting to censor editors through basless block threats. I also would advise you to carefully read the wise words of some of your great admin colleagues, like Bbb23, DGG, and Bushranger, regarding this situation. And your attempt to smear OrangeMike's reputation by bringing up alleged past incidents, which have absolutely no relevance to this matter, was highly improper. The fact remains that ANI has a basic, primary instruction: "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page." Just today, another fine admin, Kim Dent-Brown, made the importance of that instruction clear, when he said in another thread, "the original complainant was wrong to come straight here without addressing the IP editor first".[2] Bbb23 said, "Demiurge should have discussed the current problem with Mike before coming here. Just because he has discussed what he believes to be a pattern doesn't justify not giving Mike a first opportunity to reply."[3] But perhaps Bushranger put it best in this discussion when he said, "regardless of whether or not the block was valid, regardless of past communications (or lack thereof), and regardless of any biting, the fact that there was no communication with OM before he got dragged here is very disturbing".[4] So while you won't accept this point from an IP like me, perhaps will you will listen to some of your highly-respected admin colleagues. Finally, anyone who ignores or downplays policies like WP:NOPAY, WP:NOSHARE, and WP:NPOV, are being disruptive with regard to our duty to protect the project and its integrity. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 05:21, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Let's discuss this with Orangemike, Bwilkins, you and me. It is totally unacceptable to block a user for posting a transparent statement at the help desk. If there a problem with a shared account (which was not necessarily the case here) the first step is to tell the user that shared accounts aren't allowed for copyright attribution reasons, and that they have to each make their own account. If the user, agrees, problem solved. Second, for PR people, they have every right to participate here. When Wikipedia writes about a person, place or company, that person, place or company is affected, and they have a right to state their case. For instance, if we have an error in coverage, they should be able to point it out on a talk page. The blocked user should be commended for being honest, unblocked, welcomed back, and guided in a productive direction. Jehochman ^Talk 13:24, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

My post is probably not going to be popular here, but here are my points in no particlar order of importance:

• The new editor's posts were clearly promotional, no matter what he said in his edit summary. Mike apparently wasn't the only one who thought that as User:Cuchullain thought so in the first of the two reverts with the edit summary "Removing some over the top promotional material, more to come."
• I don't see any need for the new user to post the same message in so many places after being criticized for what they did.
• The article's history indicates that there have been quite a few SPAs trying to add promotional material to the article. Whether this new editor is a sock I don't know, but clearly someone in the County's offices repeatedly adds promotional material to the article: see, for example, User:Mdsoto and User:SJCGov.
• Demiurge should have discussed the current problem with Mike before coming here. Just because he has discussed what he believes to be a pattern doesn't justify not giving Mike a first opportunity to reply.
• The IP should not be blocked for his conduct here. He has a bad habit of repeating himself and being overly persistent, but he's being pushed, at least in this thread, as he's in the minority. That said, @76., pull back some. Your repetitiveness doesn't help. You don't need to make the same points over and over just because someone new disagrees.
• I don't care much where the source of Mike's interest comes from. I often am clued into a problematic editor from other boards. The issue is whether the user's conduct is sanctionable, not how you learned about it.
• All that said, I personally would not have blocked the user without first attempting to talk to them. If they had peristed in editing the article, that would have been different, but at the end of the day, they made only one edit, and they didn't do what some promotional accounts do, which is to create crappy new promotional articles.

--Bbb23 (talk) 13:50, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Bbb. You said it all. So now I will take your friendly advice and pull back even more than "some"; I'll pull back completely. (This is where you breathe a huge sigh of relief. And a few others cheer loudly. Haha.) I really appreciate your thoughtful, well-balanced comments. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 14:13, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

A brief timeline with links

16:48, 11 June	Ceilingtile1234 adds new facts, updates some stats and adds some puffery to St. Johns County, Florida
21:26, 26 June	Admin Cuchullain wikifies Ceilingtile's contribution
19:45–20:07, 28 June	Ceilingtile asks for help from the help desk and seven editors who have previously edited the article
20:16-18, 28 June	Canoe1967 replies on help and Ceilingtile's talk page explaining shared accounts and pointing to User:CorporateM/How WP:COI would read if I wrote it
20:21, 28 June	76.189.109.155 alerts Orangemike that "...a communications/PR person hired by St. Johns County, Florida, posted these comments at the help desk."
22:02, 28 June	Admin Orangemike blocks Ceilingtile
22:10, 28 June	Orangemike leaves this message on Ceilingtile's talk page: We don't permit shared accounts and you admitted yourself that this is a shared account, one intended for marketing and general promotion: [5] " provide residents, visitors, and external viewers with the most up-to-date and factual information regarding St. Johns County" is another way of saying "promote our county".
02:43, 29 June	Demiurge1000 opens this thread
02:44, 29 June	Demiurge1000 notifies Orangemike on his talk page

Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:36, 29 June 2013 (UTC) Corrected per Demiurge1000 17:22, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

The description of the second entry is misleading. In the two consecutive edits by Cuchullain, they removed 1,438 characters of text. The first edit expressly refers to the puffery added by the user.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:53, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

E&O in timeline pointed out and fixed
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
That timeline is clearly incorrect - the section ("thread") on Orangemike's talk page that you link to, was not created (opened) by me. I merely added an ANI notification to the thread (like everyone else, I am required to notify people when starting a discussion about them here). --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:41, 29 June 2013 (UTC) I think it's also worth adding 20:21, 28 June 76.189.109.155 alerts Orangemike that "...a communications/PR person hired by St. Johns County, Florida, posted these comments at the help desk." I was the one who opened the thread on Orangemike's talk page. - MrX 16:56, 29 June 2013 (UTC) I misread that, so I've corrected the timeline, and added IP76 to the timeline. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:22, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, the wording of the block was the standard one, and fully justified by the declared purpose, which was very specifically promotion. I might well have blocked at that point also, but I probably would have used a custom wording, along the lines of "you can't do this here, & our policy is that the account has to be blocked." The difficulty here is how to deal with what I will call good faith promotional editors, by which I mean editors who are openly and honestly trying to do promotion, but honestly do not realize that it is unacceptable. It may seem strange to us that someone making edits in this manner would think it acceptable, but experience shows that a great many people in the world do not really understand the difference between information and promotion. Personally, I think it's caused by the extent to which both open and disguised promotion has permeated the ordinary channels of communication. (I almost said, spread into the channels, but it's not a new development--news sources in previous centuries were even more blatant than at present.) Perhaps at this point we are the one major worldwide channel that tries seriously to be free of it, a position which we must defend, defend both effectively and politely. Advertising and promotion is not intrinsically dishonest, and we should not treat it as a heinous behavior. It's totally inappropriate here, but everyone who tries it needs this to be patiently explained, and if possible explained so carefully that they become convinced of it. I find they often say at the end something like: "I still think you should allow it, but I accept that you don't." Trying to do this properly is a problem for two reasons: first, the immense and increasing number of promotional editors, and second, that the majority of them are not really honest, but are simply hoping to get away with it. Thus we can have the feeling that it is necessary to firmly stop it at the first provocation. And it is. OM has taken a very large share of the unpleasant burden, and if he sometimes is impatient, perhaps it needs more effective participation from the rest of us. Altogether too many of us tend to ignore it unless it's truly awful. DGG ( talk ) 20:24, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I will point out that Demiurge is by no means the first person to accuse me of being overly harsh with COI and promotional editors; whereas I am on record as feeling that I am generally appropriately harsh with spamsters and spin doctors, a class of editors I consider barely above vandals in that they willfully seek to destroy NPOV, usually for pay. He may feel, therefore, that bringing the issue up on my talk page constitutes an exercise in futility. Obviously I disagree; but I acknowledge that some folks see me that way; it's certainly the way I'm caricatured at a certain other website. I do wish to thank DGG, a fine editor with whom I've disagreed on a number of occasions about notability and inclusivist/deletionist matters, for his defense of my efforts to battle against the Magic Firehose of Sewage pumping advertisements into our articles. --Orange Mike | Talk 01:02, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, this has been an enlightening conversation. I hadn't realized there are so many editors who think it's acceptable to simply ignore WP:NOPAY, WP:NOSHARE, and WP:NPOV. And I hope those, including a couple admins, who ignored some important facts and whose comments served to characterize a longtime editor and hard-working admin like OrangeMike as a villain are proud of themselves. Thank goodness we have admins like DGG, whose comments were well stated and on point. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 02:06, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Btw, I have no idea what useful purpose the extremely detailed timeline/table served, but the essential facts are all that were needed. It's very simple. A paid employee/contractor of St. Johns County created a shared account for the sole purpose of using the county's article as a promotional tool. The account's first action was to inappropriately edit the article's mainspace. The user then admitted to their COI and the promotional intent of the shared account. (The person's apparent friendly nature and cooperative spririt are irrelevant with regard to the relevant policies.) The account was then blocked by an admin. Then some edtiors thought the admin was mean and shouldn't have blocked the account. Others disagreed. The admin was then taken to ANI without any disussion with him beforehand. There's your timeline. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 02:57, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• I believe most points brought up by all are valid. Has anyone written an essay that reflects OM's view on COI paid spam? That could be linked as a 'harsh and valid' counter essay to the one that I linked. This way new editors that have messages on their talk pages could see both sides. I usually just link User:CorporateM/How WP:COI would read if I wrote it but a link to a counter 'defend NPOV at all costs' essay may be helpful as well.--Canoe1967 (talk) 02:59, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• Frankly, the moment I saw firm evidence that there was a shared account in play here (which there has seemed to be), combined with what is obviously a promotional intent, the block button would get punched. If there was just one or the other, a warning would be called for, but the combination is a sign of somebody who is here to promote, not to improve the encyclopedia. And regardless of whether or not the block was valid, regardless of past communications (or lack thereof), and regardless of any biting, the fact that there was no communication with OM before he got dragged here is very disturbing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:27, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• Is the "firm evidence that there was a shared account" the post that starts with the text "I am a communications specialist..." (my emphasis) - or some other post? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:37, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• This is difficult. OM shouldn't be allowed to communicate with - let alone block - other editors, he's so rude. But the alternative to the present situation is you, me or some other lazy arse having to patrol and deal with commercial COI. I find dealing with most polite COI editors horrendous, because regardless of what they say, at least half of them turn out to be sociopathic, POV-pushing time-thieves. My real concern here is the IP76, whose behaviour and attitude is eerily reminiscent of a recently spectacularly-banned editor. He may not be that editor - I haven't a clue - but deserves watching carefully. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 05:24, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I have faith in this IP76 because I think it may be IP 76.189.111.199 who has done some good work for the project. I think the MO is similar. They may tend to speak a little much at the wrong time and places but I think they mean well. Just my opinion though.--Canoe1967 (talk) 05:51, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

"The person's apparent friendly nature and cooperative spririt are irrelevant with regard to the relevant policies" (from the possibly spectacular IP)... and some wonder why the wider world perceives Wikipedia as a bureaucracy that is out of touch and has lost its way. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:31, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Shri Brahm Sarup Singh

It appears that the referenced article has been created by User talk:Princessshrutisingh (an WP:SPS) several times only to be deleted. The latest version of the article is currently BLP-PRODed. Andrew³²⁷ 16:17, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

 Done--v/r - TP 17:26, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

attack on tanning industry propaganda turns into personal attack on editors

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We have a problem with user: 68.148.184.208 He is a doctor in Alberta Canada who persists in lengthy attacks on the tanning industry in the article on Propaganda. He gets reverted of course. Now he's using my talk page to attack me and he seems to demand some action from Wikipedia. He writes: "Please let me know how I can report you for being a moron, and we can take this to court of public opinion and you will lose after someone with actual integrity and half a brain reviews the references. Or are you simply working for the industry? How do I complain about you for being an idiot? Where can I report you? " this attack apepars on my talk page at User talk:Rjensen#Re: Propaganda Rjensen (talk) 07:53, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I am reporting an attack that shakes the integrity of wikipedia. I inserted a section of the propaganda article about the tanning industry, based on actual facts. This is not a "point of view" piece, unless you neglect the collective opinion of the World Health Organization, Dermatology Associations worldwide. I have added a very informative interesting piece about the actions of the tanning industry that meet the definition of propaganda. All my sources were included and this includes an article written by the Canadian Pediatric Society. But the segment has been removed by binkerstreet and Rjensen because they claim I am writing an opinion piece. It is not an opinion piece, and frankly, I am disgusted that such individuals think that they are above the law and can claim that I am being biased in my article content. It is actually quite ironic that they are showing a bias against this article contribution by repeatedly removing it despite attempts made my be to make it as unbiased and objective as possible. They are doing a great disservice by removing content without knowing anything about it. If they actually had knowledge in such a matter, then they would realize that this information belongs in the article. Neither have presented any rational counter-argument, and their rights should seriously be re-considered or they will continue to make a mockery of this site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.184.208 (talk) 08:01, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I have added this since reading this Rjensen and his/her piece. It is mind-boggling that he/she thinks things are personal from my end, but then chooses to act as a hypocrite by posting unnecessary personal information about me. Rjensen is crying foul and has no evidence to prove this is an "attack piece." It is factual. Unlike Rjensen, I included information and sources in my article to clearly show this is a factual assertion. I welcome anyone to read the edits that I made to the propaganda. If everyone believe this is an "attack" on the tanning industry, then I will accept the decision made, but will lose complete faith in this website to present balanced and objective data. The use of propaganda by an industry to promote an unhealthy product that is proven a carcinogen is worth including in the propaganda page. Perhaps it is harsh to use words just as idiot when dealing with Rjensen, but I certainly believe I have a case when I am telling him/her that it is ignorant to not accept peer-reviewed literature and an adequate description of examples of the use of propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.184.208 (talk) 08:13, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

He/she furthers the posts with what I feel, ironically, are attacks on my character without evidence.

"Your problem is that you are only interested in attacking or exposing the tanning industry but are writing about it in the article on Propaganda. You seem to have little interest in the scholarship on propaganda, but are just using a platform-- indeed seizing control of a huge amount of space in the Propaganda article to vent your anger and frustration." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:68.148.184.208 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.184.208 (talk) 08:50, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Seven paragraphs about the tanning industry is rather excessive for the article on propaganda. Adds quite a bit of undue weight to the subject. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 09:03, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, 68.*, you need to stop, it's as simple as that. You have been editing in a way that aggressively pushes your cause. This is not what Wikipedia is for. Criticism of the tanning industry can suitably be covered – in a detached, neutral fashion – in the tanning article or other similar places, but pushing it right into the middle of the propaganda article (and with such a quantity of material as you did) clearly means unilaterally promoting an opinion as fact and gives it a hugely exaggerated amount of weight. Please stop this now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:04, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

FPaS, you probably mean the Sun tanning article, which does have a controversy section. Of course, any large scale addition of the sort that have been made to the propaganda article needs to be discussed on the article talk page to get some sort of consensus and to try and avoid weight issues - discussion on article talk pages seems to be distinctly absent in this case so far.Nigel Ish (talk) 09:15, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, thanks for correcting the link. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:18, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

While I am not hopeful about this IP editor, the original complainant was wrong to come straight here without addressing the IP editor first. I have left some advice on their talk page. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 10:17, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

You've obviously never tried to communicate with an IP editor via talk pages before... Carrite (talk) 16:52, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I actually posted this in response to Rjensen, who posted this without contacting the IP editor first, so please leave your advice with him.70.73.141.146 (talk) 05:41, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, I do so often. The screed at the top of this page says "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page." It doesn't say that IP users are exempt from this consideration. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 19:40, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that many IPs are dynamic - while this one may be semi-static, many times attempts to communicate with IPs are doomed to failure before they start because of the very nature of IPs. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:18, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

"Well, 68.*, you need to stop, it's as simple as that." I will not add the edits back, but I am not done engaging with you people who think you know what I am doing.

"You have been editing in a way that aggressively pushes your cause." I don't know why you cannot have a cause. The cause that most writers push for on this encyclopedia is knowledge. That is what I have done, and not one of you have proven otherwise. This is not an agenda, and these personal attacks by people like you are nothing more than pushing your agenda.

"Criticism of the tanning industry can suitably be covered" This is not criticism of the tanning industry. It is factual. Again, and I think this must be in capital letters so you actually read it, NOT ONE OF YOU FOLKS HAVE PROVEN IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT WHAT I HAVE CONTRIBUTED IS ANYTHING BUT FACTS, RATHER THAN "ATTACKS". I used several peer-reviewed articles that scientifically prove that what the industry has done is a form of propaganda.

"in a detached, neutral fashion – in the tanning article or other similar places, but pushing it right into the middle of the propaganda article" Is that not a non-neutral statement? I actually put it at the end of the article, in an organized fashion (I was careful to do so), and I am sorry but you are blind or just plain stupid if you think I put it "right into the middle," unless you learned somewhere that the end is equivalent to the middle.

"(and with such a quantity of material as you did)" I have offered to shorten it, and it is ironically you folks who are foolishly pushing your agenda now, not even giving me the opportunity to do so. Now who is biased?

"clearly means unilaterally promoting an opinion as fact and gives it a hugely exaggerated amount of weight." I NEED YOU TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING. If you want to make a public encyclopedia, it needs to involve contributions from individuals who have knowledge in the area. What you are now saying here is dangerous and horrendously false. My views on the tanning industry and my assertion (not a point of view) is based on facts. I have used such facts in my contribution to the site. Again, NOT ONE of you has published any information to prove that this is an opinion. Several Dermatology Associations, Pediatric Organizations and the World Health organization have listed UV radiation from tanning beds as a Carcinogen, along with tobacco. The tanning industry had placed attacks at the medical institutions without facts and are running campaigns against the government funded public health system in Canada. I don't see how anyone with KNOWLEDGE about this topic (and it seems as though absolutely nobody above who has posted does) can rationally tell me that I am speaking as a matter of opinion.

My last point, and this is a crucial one here that you all need to understand - You are claiming that my scientific knowledge about the harmful effects of indoor tanning, in addition to my elaboration of the industry's tactics (which have been well-documented and cited from peer-reviewed literature) is an "attack" on the tanning industry - this implies that the industry is innocent until proven guilty at running propaganda. This is FALSE.

From the Canadian Pediatric society(http://www.cps.ca/en/documents/position/tanning-facilities): "At a time when health issues surrounding the use of artificial UVR are mountintg [4][7][13], the industry’s reaction and recent behaviors have been reminiscent of the tobacco industry [68][69]. The tanning business is seeking to establish and maintain a client-base among teenagers. Tactics include championing teen access to tanning salons, challenging the authority of opinion- or policy-makers to deny parents the ‘right’ to permit their teen’s tanning activities [70][71], placing advertisements in high school newspapers, providing coupons for discounts, and offering unlimited tanning deals [72]-[74]. Their marketing and lobbying practices have served to obscure or even deny the hazards and potential carcinogenicity of tanning beds. However, industry efforts to frame artificial UVR as a product associated with health and fitness [75]-[77] have not gone unchallenged [78].

"In Canada, industry representations generated a complaint by the Canadian Cancer Society to the Competition Bureau in 2005. The subsequent consent agreement with the largest chain of tanning salons in the country stipulated that they must: “stop making representations to the public linking indoor tanning with the unproven benefits of vitamin D”; acknowledge in any promotion of artificial UVR that: “Tanning is not required to generate vitamin D. Vitamin D levels in the body may be maintained by oral supplements without tanning”; and “pay an administrative monetary penalty of $62,500” [78]. Legal action, based on damage to health, is at a formative stage in the United States [79]."

If you can see below, there is both ethical and legal precedents, challenging all of your claims that this an attack piece.

If you have nothing more to add, "Future Perfect at Sunrise," "Rjensen," I will rest knowing that you two came to this battle completely unarmed and will be foolishly removing a piece WITHOUT ANY RATIONAL THOUGHT. And if this decision is allowed to stand, then for shame and this site is nothing more than a disgrace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.73.141.146 (talk) 04:57, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

This material belongs at the Sun tanning and Tanning bed articles, not at Propaganda. Binksternet (talk) 05:44, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

the persistent doctor is back and gets reverted again. He can't accept the strong suggestions of multiple editors that the Propaganda article is the wrong venue for his attacks on the Canadian tanning industry. Rjensen (talk) 08:07, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Mmm. You're on the wrong article. The problem isn't the truth or not of what you're adding, it's the undue weight you're giving to one example of propaganda. We could possibly use an article entitled Propaganda in the tanning bed industry or something along those lines, if you can find enough "secondary" sources. In fact, I'd welcome a good article on that. But you will need to read WP:OR and WP:NPOV, if you don't want to waste a lot of time. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:12, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Anon user blocked (on their current IP 70.73.141.146 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)) for edit-warring and personal attacks. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:20, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

And after posting one of the more virtiolic screeds I've seen on his talk page, talk page access has been revoked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:06, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

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User:Bhaskarbhagawati

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Bhaskarbhagawati (talk · contribs) is POV pushing and preventing constructive editing on Kamapitha.

• He removed duly referenced texts because the text did not agree with his point of view (diff).
• To buttress his claim, he inserted two new references (diff).
• I examined those sources and found that they did not support BB's claim; and so I filled the details from the two references (diff, diff).
• BB did not contest the my edits, but he removed them claiming they are confusing, even though all I did was provide the details from the references he had himself inserted (diff).
• I tried to reinstate the details (diff), which BB again reverted (diff), asking for a "consensus".

I don’t know how to come to a “consensus”, when all I am doing is inserting details accurately from references that BB had himself inserted. I need help in keeping the duly referenced texts in the article and the details in them, which BB keeps removing.

Chaipau (talk) 16:15, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

As this is a content dispute, have you followed the suggestions in WP:DR ... specifically taking this to the dispute resolution noticeboard? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:27, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I do not see this as a content dispute, but a behavior issue. BB has not disputed the content. After all, he has himself inserted the references and removing referenced texts. Chaipau (talk) 17:09, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

This is in fact a content dispute, and WP:CONSENSUS is achieved by discussing on the article's talk page, which is what should be done here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:01, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

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Bollfooot making non-constructive edits.

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Bollfooot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Keeps on adding incorrect information on this article when the official website says otherwise. 24.212.195.135 (talk) 00:32, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• To the administrators who knows about football, I am sure you know uefa.com is the official website of the aforementioned competition and hence should be the primary source. Bollfooot provided sources that differs from the primary source but as UEFA.com is the official website, when there is a discreprancy, the official source should be the one taking precedence. Bollfooot needs to learn on the subject of reliable sources. Also, Nmk829 was the first person who added the correct information based on the official website. Bollfooot's first edit summary on 17:59, 28 June 2013 to him was "are you idiot or what?" That is highly inapproprate. 24.212.195.135 (talk) 01:32, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

This item was also posted at WP:AIV -- Diannaa (talk) 01:07, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

And I posted about the matter at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Flyer22 (talk) 01:09, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• I've full protected 3 days. I'm not familiar with the material, so will leave any blocks to another admin if they are needed, then they can remove the protection. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:31, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• Note: Despite what I stated at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection about the IP likely not knowing about the WP:Edit war policy, the IP's talk page shows differently. Flyer22 (talk) 01:46, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Neither one of them are models of good behavior. Again, I'm clueless on the content and if someone thinks they both need blocks and wants to unprotect, it won't hurt my feelings. Protection was the fast and easy way to just stop the war. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
• Comment from a WP:FOOTBALL member: IP, do you have any idea what source Bollfooot is basing this on? The UEFA source is obviously reliable, but then it is possible Bollfooot is looking at a club's site, which may represent things differently. As to the referee's surname, it is very likely that "Colţescu" is more accurate than "Coltescu", as the guy is Romanian, but "Sevastian" is also more likely than "Sebastian". Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:51, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• Having gone digging myself, it appears that Bollfooot is using this source: [6]. As I suspected above, this is the official website of this club, and the ground is the club's normal ground. This gives us quite a dilemma as to which is more accurate! Personally, I think we should leave it blank until the match has been played, and the official results are accessible - I note that there are a couple of referees missing from the list, so it's not like this is an unprecedented idea. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:04, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• All of that should be on the article talk page rather than here. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 14:21, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

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Bmotbmot Problem continues

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Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive802#User:Bmotbmot, presumably this fell into the archive automatically? No sign of problem abating. User responded to messages in English and Chinese by blanking his Talk page. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:51, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Unarchive it? Crazynas ^t 08:18, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I've blocked User:Bmotbmot for an indefinite length of time; when they are willing to come to the table and actually discuss the concerns others have raised then they can be unblocked. Simply blanking warnings and continuing on with the same contentious edits is disruptive and certainly does not lend itself to collaborative editing.--Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 16:35, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

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Here we go again

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No feeding
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CU needs to be done on User:Pointer22, look at contribs, we have another Technoquat here. Similar Helpdesk posts and the usual crap. --AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:09, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Impersonator indef blocked - they'd even copied the entirety of the real AndyTheGrump's talk page! -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:28, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

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Black July Image Removal on Sri Lanka Page

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I have replaced the the following image deleted;

File:ColomboburningBlackJuly1983anti-TamilpogromSriLanka 1 - from Commons.jpg

Black July, 1983. Rioters from a section of Sinhalese community set fire to Tamil homes and businesses.

by

File:Black July 1983 Sri Lankan Policeman.jpg

Black July, 1983 - Sri Lankan soldier kills a Tamil.

And requested to discuss any amendments with rationale.

User: Cossde raised the question, "Can you please give RS to verify that it is a Sri Lankan soldier killing a Tamil?"

My response is as below;

That is a flickr image and uploaded by User: Share Bear (talk | contribs) on 18 August 2011 on Wikimedia Commons.

The images on the same flickr on Black July, 1983 are - image 1, image 2, image 3, image 4(The Image in Use), image 5 and image 6

If every other images can be attributed to the 1983 Black July in Sri Lanka; the Image in Use also from Sri Lanka and belongs to Sri Lankan Soldier according to the source.

I need Administrator intervention to avoid the removal of the image and not to make the Wikipedia Page of Sri Lanka is rather a promotional piece of the Sri Lankan Government than an encyclopedic one.HudsonBreeze (talk) 14:23, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

This is most definitely a content dispute and we don't intervene to avoid anything in content disputes. You'll need to talk it out or seek dispute resolution. However, I would say any image that comes from a source who calls himself on Flickr "Viva Tamil" is probably not a neutral source for images about Tamil's being killed.--v/r - TP 14:26, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I know it is a Content Dispute but I have only replaced an Image which was there for a long time.

If I want to agree with your statement that - "However, I would say any image that comes from a source who calls himself on Flickr "Viva Tamil" is probably not a neutral source for images about Tamil's being killed.", do you think there were international media presence at that time of Black July to cover the pogrom? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HudsonBreeze (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I will replace the image by an image either from the image @ The Guardian(UK) or from an image @ dbsjeyaraj.com under non-free historic image rationale. dbsjeyaraj.com is used as a source for more than 40 articles on Wikipedia.HudsonBreeze (talk) 16:37, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

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Tabarez = 2.178.188.74

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Hi everyone. I think it may be possible that User:Tabarez (banned indefinitely on 11 June 2013 for copyright violations) returned again, now as 2.178.188.74. This IP has similar edits on sport and Iranian politics as Tabarez did. So far, Tabarez tried to evade his indefinite block on numerous occasions, with this usernames and IPs:

• User:Tabarez2
• User:Namejavid
• 2.178.181.147
• 2.178.181.45
• 2.178.185.87

It just takes to look at contributions of Tabarez and 2.178.188.74 to see they are the same person (WP:DUCK). It really looks like another block evasion of Tabarez to me, so I guess an admin should look at this. Cheers! --Sundostund (talk) 19:42, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• This belongs at WP:SPI, although Tabarez2 is clearly going to be either Tabarez, or an impersonator. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
• None of the IPs has edited since June 15.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:13, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Yes, but 2.178.188.74 edited today. It really looks like its Tabarez again. --Sundostund (talk) 22:34, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

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Alexander Montagu, 13th Duke of Manchester and canvassing at Wikipediocracy

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A recent AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander Montagu, 13th Duke of Manchester ended in deletion. This AfD was raised as a direct result of canvassing at Wikipediocracy, by an account there claiming to be the subject of the article. The AfD was raised by one of those most active at Wikipediocracy, supported by another.

It would be fair to describe the AfD as 'heated', particularly the comments on it at Wikipediocracy where outing and crude insults "What a nasty little scumbag." were the order of the day, most of the article's past editors being seen as fair game. Civility? Not it seems if it's off wiki, even between identifiable editors.

Some related threads at

• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Peerage_and_Baronetage/Archive_9#Duke_of_Manchester (2011, same issues though)
• Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Alexander_Montagu.2C_13th_Duke_of_Manchester
• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Peerage_and_Baronetage#Roll_of_the_Peerage (the technical issue of "duke or not?")

The article was deleted, then re-created as a redirect. An interesting approach (redirects can be made more easily by editing), but of course it also has the side-effect of blanking debate or access to the article history.

An uninvolved editor then popped up today on the redirect's talk page and enquired what had happened. I answered (and although not inline citing everything on a mere talk page, there was nothing claimed there isn't already linked from the AfD). Mostly to point out that whatever Montagu thinks, the WP article was being held carefully to BLP and that everything else on the web is far worse, and that he's now facing a bit of a Streisand effect. After a request to the closing admin by the original AfD nominator, colleague of Montague at Wikipediocracy and author of the "nasty little scumbag" comment, the talkpage was very promptly wiped too. However per WP:CBLANK "This generally is not done except under rare circumstances" (and a bunch of other policy, none of which appears to have been followed here)

In the absence of the article itself, I refer those interested to the AfD, the Wikipediocracy thread and (for a quick summary, if you can see the history) Talk:Alexander Montagu, 13th Duke of Manchester.

Are we now using "Delete on request" as a BLP policy, provided that it's first posted at Wikipediocracy to canvas up a few loyal subjects? Andy Dingley (talk) 21:42, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Wikipediocracy is too often the only place where you hear the truth, so that's the problem you ought to be addressing. Eric Corbett 21:44, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

The WP:TRUTH? I'd pay a lot for that. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:50, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I doubt you'd recognise it. Eric Corbett 22:06, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure someone with a fancy green sig knows so much better. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:15, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

We cannot and should not dictate whether "outing and crude insults" are used at Wikipediocracy; they have been in the past and they will be in future. The purpose of such attacks, especially outing, is to suppress or prevent individuals from speaking freely here - the best solution to such behaviour is not to be suppressed or intimidated.

The AfD is clearly problematic, since the delete !voters were almost without exception either Wikipediocracy staff or Wikipediocracy contributors. There is therefore an unsolved problem here that needs fixing.

The individual making the complaint at Wikipediocracy does not seem to have had things all his own way there either; his incoherent ramblings were more than once pulled up by other contributors who wanted to know exactly what it is that he was saying, asking, or demanding.

I was canvassed to comment here by Charmlet, but this had no effect on my comment because I had already decided to comment here. Charmlet, correctly, did not give any indication of how he thought I should comment. He also later commented that he was "kidding", and his invitation to comment had been accompanied by a smiley. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:50, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

And also. WP:BLP rightly includes a clause suggesting that the subject's wishes should be taken into account in deletion discussions. (It's pretty sad that some of the people who are noisiest on this topic didn't even know this until this week.) However, that is not the same as "delete on demand", and "delete on demand" should not be something that we allow. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:55, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Can't really see this ANI thread as much else but forum shopping. The deletion discussion was valid and was correctly closed; if you think it wasn't, there's always DRV for you. The fact that Wikipediocracy played a role in this is really neither here nor there – personally, I detest some of the low-lifes on that website and their nastiness as much as the next guy, but some people over there do often have a correct feel for BLP issues, and this may well be such a case. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:07, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I didn't raise this as a result of the AfD, or even the insults or outing. This is here now because of blanking the talk page. We're not only blanking articles at Montagu's whim, we're blanking discussion about them at the demand of his supporters. WTF happened to NOTCENSORED? Andy Dingley (talk) 22:15, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't see what your issue with the talk page is. As far as I'm aware, it's standard practice for talk pages to be deleted too when their article is deleted. It also has nothing to do with the creation of the redirect. The only thing that makes the situation a bit confusing is that before the redirect was created, the deleted page was moved to yet another location (Alexander Montagu), so that's where the deleted talk page history is now too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:24, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:CBLANK will make some novel reading for you then. This is content that was added after the article page had been deleted, discussing its deletion. Also it was Talk:Alexander Montagu, 13th Duke of Manchester, not any other page. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:33, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Wikipediocracy controls WP now. Get used to it. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:17, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Delicious carbuncle is correct. Really, Andy has brought this to the wrong forum. Whether Wikipedia policy and consensus can be over-ruled on the say-so of half a dozen individuals of dubious credibility on Wikipediocracy, should be discussed at the Village Pump, not here. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:22, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

::::::Really? I thought our supreme overlord was the Flying Spaghetti Monster.--v/r - TP 22:19, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• Quoting Demiurge above: The AfD is clearly problematic, since the delete !voters were almost without exception either Wikipediocracy staff or Wikipediocracy contributors. There is therefore an unsolved problem here that needs fixing.. I'm not about to research the delete voters at the AfD to see which of them have indeed at some time posted to Wikipediocracy. (Demiurge might perhaps like to do that.) But I want to state unequivocally that I don't mind having my opinion dismissed along with that of Newyorkbrad, Reaper Eternal, Stuart.Jamieson, Peter cohen, or Anthonyhcole. On the contrary, it's an honor. Bishonen | talk 22:26, 30 June 2013 (UTC).

• I haven't seen an ANI filing this frothing and semi-coherent in quite awhile. While I post at Wikipediocracy at times, I took part in neither the discussion there nor this AfD, so looking through the deletion discussion I see nothing untowards about any of the calls to delete. I do see several rather weak calls to keep though; as "dukes, and people descended from dukes, are noble and are usually notable" and "He has generated his own notability" are particularly vapid. Whether there are editors there who are also Wikipediocracians is as irrelevant as complaining that a an AfD of a female bio is full of members of the Gender Gap mailing list. (Sadly, that actually happened recently) As long as they are editors on this project (with an actual history here, not just sign-up-that-day-and-comment), then where they discuss bad articles in need of deletion should be irrelevant. WP:CANVAS is far too often abused by simplistic bellyachers who find a discussion closed against them. Tarc (talk) 22:42, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

(EC} Demiurge conceded above that not everyone in the Wikipediocracy thread was impressed by all that Montagu had to say. Therefore the suggestion that there was a rigid party line according to which everyone from there voted is nonsense. Andy's unseemly rush to WP:COIN and to here also does strike me as forum shopping.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

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wrongly accused/blocked

Probably of a sock is close to 1. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
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[[7]] this user overreactted to anoter user (witch i will not name) by wrongly accuse the user of [[8]] and wrongly handed it by wrongly blocked the user AzraelTheQuietWatcher (talk) 22:27, 30 June 2013 (UTC) The question now is whose sock are you? Apologies but when a new account's first edit is to AN/I with something like this good faith is very hard to assume. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:47, 30 June 2013 (UTC) I would put my money on Digifan23 (talk · contribs) being either the owner of this sock account, or the account for which this sock is white knighting. Resolute 22:57, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

ROMUALDEZES ISLAMIC JIHAD GROUP

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Does anyone think the former contents of User:ROMUALDEZES_ISLAMIC_JIHAD_GROUP is anything but a hoax? Toddst1 (talk) 03:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

At first glance, I'm pretty sure that the account is another sock of HENRY APPLEGATE. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 04:14, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

And  Confirmed. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 04:19, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

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IP-hopper has returned on previous targeted articles

IP user 78.160.81.47 (78.160.xxx.xxx) started his/her Turkification, falsification, and POV-pushing quest again. Some targeted articles:

• Mamluk Sultanate (Cairo)
• Timurid dynasty
• Seljuq dynasty
• Great Seljuq Empire
• Xiongnu
• Hephthalite Empire
• Golden Horde

An IP-range block or page protection is necessary. Admins please see this (old and archived thread/section about this user): Administrators' noticeboard – How can we deal with 78.160.xxx.xx? Hundreds of disruptive edits per week. Zyma (talk) 09:01, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Engaged in falsification persion is you. I'm writing is trues. I don't propaganda just like you. 78.160.7.226 (talk) 13:39, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Looks like most edits of 78* are indeed meaningless POV edits, like adding the Turkish language template in the first place (!) to Xiongnu; however some of their edits seem to have some meaning, like in Timurid dynasty. I am afraid we need to identify specific questions, and discuss them separately. I do not see grounds to block them right now (though one more revert in Seljuq dynasty may earn both of you a day of rest from Wikipedia).--Ymblanter (talk) 14:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Ymblanter, I disagree. Right now admins are going around protecting the pages he has edited so far, so a better solution is to block the range, as this protects the whole encyclopedia. I have blocked 78.160.0.0/17 for two weeks. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:22, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

You do not need to be sorry. A closer look shows indeed they are mainly destructive.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:24, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

And a goodd thing too....thanks for that, Diannaa (I can not bring myself to use the thank-thingie....); I never learned to do rangeblocks either. Lectonar (talk) 14:26, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

User:NuclearWarfare once famously taught User:Bishonen how to do range blocks, using words of one syllable! That's how I learned to do range blocks. Unfortunately to date the Japanese translation is still not available . The link in this diff is 404; the tool is now at http://toolserver.org/~tparis/rangecontribs/. There's also a range block calculator at http://toolserver.org/~chm/blockcalc.php. These tools and other handy stuff are in the quick-links boxes at the top of my user page. -- Diannaa (talk) 16:09, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again, will try when appropriate....and regarding syllables: is "eye" as in "eye-peas" a one-syllable word? Lectonar (talk) 16:14, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Personal attack by admin Arthur Rubin

I am a software engineer postgrad who has academically studied formal methods and who uses them in my vocation and have recently been editing formal methods-related articles on Wikipedia. Admin Arthur Rubin has aggressively reverted my edits, proposed my articles for deletion and personally attacked me ("Nonsense. As usual, when you attempt to talk about mathematical concepts.") I find his behavior to be very antagonistic and quite frankly if his adversarial editing continues I have no desire to continue using Wikipedia. I wouldn't complain if Arthur was just a user but I am surprised an admin would behave this way. I did have a problem with my signature that I didn't realize was happening - as soon as I was alerted to the problem I fixed it and apologized. I have tried to collaborate but he seems totally uninterested in meeting me half-way. Eptified (talk) 09:13, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• If you want to prove a pattern of behavior, you'll have to provide more than one diff. I looked through Arthur's edits and found two instances of his reverting you, here and here. Perhaps I'm wrong, but neither of those looks aggressive to me. Perhaps there are more, and if so, you should provide diffs. As far as deletion goes, I see one deletion he proposed, at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_June_23#Category:Iterated_binary_operations. About the nonsense comment, few people who attend this board are going to be fluent in the mathematical details you're talking about, so most of us have no idea whether its right or wrong to refer to your comment as nonsense. The solution to everything you've brought up is simply to pursue dispute resolution, get more people involved. If there really is a pattern of Arthur antagonizing you, show it with diffs - don't offer up one and expect us to hunt down the rest. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:47, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• Your "I tried to collaborate" diff is a message you left on Arthur Rubin's talk page only a few hours ago. I don't see any reply from him there. I also see that he hasn't edited the articles in question (Term graph and Abstract semantic graph) since you posted that message. What leads you to believe that he is totally uninterested in meeting you halfway, or indeed that he's even seen your message? Can you provide some diffs of his from the past few hours which shows he's refusing your request to collaborate? —Psychonaut (talk) 09:57, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• There is probably some history which is not apparent in the above. One of those links shows Arthur Rubin's contributions, but it's not very clear what we are supposed to look at. I see two sections where you have posted at User talk:Arthur Rubin. The second is currently visible at the bottom, and does not show any problem. The first was removed by yourself and concerns a question over your signature. Here is the diff of your post, and the whole section can be seen in this permalink. User talk:Eptified has two posts by Arthur Rubin. They weren't welcoming, but they were standard—again, I'm assuming that some disagreement has occurred regarding articles. There is a CfD here, but I do not see a problem there. Can you identify an article or a talk page which shows a problem? One of your links (diff) shows "Nonsense. As usual, when you attempt to talk about mathematical concepts." which is unpleasant, but the background would have to be investigated to decide whether such bluntness was appropriate. A good place for opinions on mathematical issues is the active wikiproject. Johnuniq (talk) 10:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• back in the day much worse would be commonplace, i am sure AR meant nothing by it. ps, kudos for mastering the learning curve so fast, your edits in the first month here demonstrate an advanced understanding of the project. Darkstar1st (talk) 10:44, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • First month? He's been around since March 2009, having previously edited under the account Factomancer (talk · contribs). —Psychonaut (talk) 10:51, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• Even in disagreement with Arthur Rubin, I've seen nothing, but respectful dialog and concern for collaboration with Wikipedia's best interest at heart of the matter! While the tone may be a bit harsher to some, everything needs context and perspective. I am sure Arthur Rubin can defend himself, but of the instances found, one doesn't pass MEDRS (October 2012) and the other seems to be problematic at first glance. The one for Morgellons was really contentious to boot. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:47, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• I apologize for assuming that Eptified is in the pro-Morgellons gang. However, he has failed to provide a WP:MEDRS source for the assertion that Morgellons isn't a psychiatric illness. As for the mathematical concepts, he seems to conflate iterated binary operations (analogous to summation) and iterable binary operations (analogous to addition). As for my "nonsense" comment: it is nonsense in set theory and in universal algebra, where I am expert; it may make sense in category theory. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Anonymous vandalism through proxy server

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When looking at vandalism (on an article on my watchlist) perpetrated by an anonymous user on IP 8.37.224.64 I noticed that Whatismyipaddress says that the IP is a confirmed proxy with a dial-up connection owned by Wangsu Science And Technology (a satellite provider, meaning that there is no way to tell where in the world a vandal is operating from), and also that the IP is included in a large number of spam blacklists. The vandalism so-far through the proxy is limited, but that trickle could soon turn into a mighty river if the proxy is left unchecked. Thomas.W (talk) 13:01, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• You are misreading that spam list. See the green checkmarks? That means they are ok - a red x would indicate a problem. They list all those places for every IP, then rate them with the marks. They only have two edits here. There are a lot of satellite IPs around here that we don't block. There is no problem being a confirmed proxy here, only open proxies are blocked. I checked, this isn't an open proxy. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:54, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

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Editor continues to add copyvio despite warnings

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I am involved in disputes over original research and sources with Valentino2013 (talk · contribs) so I am loathe to block him despite his continued addition of copyvio. At Haplogroup J-M267[9] is an edit using his IP address which is copyvio from [10] which is not a reliable source in any case, being by a lawyer who is an amateur geneticist. This edit of his there[11] added material from [12]. At Ishmaelites he has been continually adding material from the same sources despite being reverted and warned (and the genetic sources do not mention Ishmaelites in any case - there's a discussion at WP:RSN on this). I question his competence - two editors have added speedy tags to some of his new articles, he doesn't seem to understand the genealogy material he is adding and there are problems with virtually all of the numerous articles he's created (a recent series presents traditional Arabic/Muslim genealogies back to Abraham and Adam as fact, but that's another type of issue). But the main problem here is persistent copyvio. Dougweller (talk) 16:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I will add the differentials for the many times Dougweller deleted my addition to many artickes even though they are supported by legible referencesValentino2013 (talk) 16:47, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Doug, a quick look didn't make the copyright violation obvious to me. Can you point out what you believe to be an excessively close paraphrase or an excessively long unattributed quote?—Kww(talk) 16:53, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I mean, the second edit that Doug linked is directly plagiarized from the source and not attributed as a quote, it's not about a paraphrase. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:15, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Must have gotten my diffs crossed up. No problem seeing it this time.—Kww(talk) 17:21, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

My inclination is to block on WP:COMPETENCE grounds, but I will give the softer-hearted a chance to chime in before I do.—Kww(talk) 17:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

His reply at WP:RSN#Can these sources be used to genetically trace Arabs (or rather 'Ishmaelite Arabs') to Abraham? gives you some idea of his competence and English. Dougweller (talk) 17:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

And he's continuing to editwar. I warned him for 3RR and he reverted me again.[13]. Hopefully this can be resolved here so I won't report him yet, and another editor has reverted him for obvious WP:SYN. Dougweller (talk) 17:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Doug's point about the editor's command of English is pretty valid. Based on his writing elsewhere, I would venture to suggest than any coherent addition to an article is a copyvio. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:40, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I have been partially involved in this because of his edits at Ishmaelites. Valentino2013's sole purpose seems to be to 'prove' the authenticity of traditional Muslim genealogies. His material is often difficult to decipher, but it's clear there are bucket-loads of WP:SYN. He throws arounds statements about haplotypes, mingles this with bits of history and then connects it to Biblical narratives. It's virtually impossible to "unpack" much of this material, and discussion with the editor appears to be fruitless. He just makes long barely-readable dogmatic pronouncements. Even stylistic improvements get wiped out in the edit wars Valentino2013 provokes. Paul B (talk) 17:48, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Blocked.—Kww(talk) 18:17, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Kww, what's the rationale behind an indef block on this user? I can understand temporary blocking for the reasons you cited, even for a long period of time, but an indef as the very first block on that account seems a bit excessive to me. I'm not familiar with the issues at hand, though, so I just want some clarity. Thanks. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 18:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

It would appear to me that a block for any definite period would demonstrate that Kww knew the exact moment that this user would catch a clue. An indefite block is not the most severe, it's the block one uses when one has to wait on the blocked to let us know when they are ready to edit. Tiderolls 18:40, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

That, and it would mean that I would have to have some reasonable expectation that that exact moment would ever arrive.—Kww(talk) 18:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, though the AGF part of me wants to believe that, given a month, the user would either decide to leave on his own or come back and try again with a better idea of how things work here. That's more of a "wait and see" approach, though. But I'm not involved, so I won't contest. :) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 19:11, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

With a fixed-length block, the user could simply resume the problematic behaviour when the block expires. With the indef-block, the user has to talk to us, via the unblock notice, and demonstrate that he/she understands the expectations for this website. In the case of copyright violations, a policy is being violated that has legal implications, so it's pretty important that they not resume editing until they assure us that they understand what they did wrong and won't do it again. - Diannaa (talk) 21:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

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Questions

Hi. I am a new user, and I had two quick questions.

1. I want to edit a redirect page, but don't know how. I recently wrote an article about BioLite and was hoping to have it redirect from Biolite, as many people don't include the second capitalization. There already is a redirect page. How do I change this?

2. Is there a way to change the privacy of a page? I love that anyone can edit most articles, but what do you do if you want there to be a little more security? How can I achieve this?

Thank you so much for your assistance.

EJLefever (talk) 19:55, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Hi EJ-- this is the administrator's noticeboard. Questions regarding how to use and edit on Wikipedia are better directed at The Teahouse or The Help Desk. I'll drop you an invite on your talk page. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 20:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Mike Bithell

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Resolved

 – Semiprotected for 3 days, reverted. Materialscientist (talk) 01:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Anyone mind taking a look at this? Something's going on with it, and I don't know what. A bunch of anonymous IPs, and a couple of registered users, seem to be using it as a vandalism sandbox. I haven't notified anyone because there's like twenty different users/IPs involved, and each one appears to make only one or two edits before vanishing. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 00:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Updated to add...I've begun notifications, as much as I can. But it's a bit like getting in front of the sea during flood tide... --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 01:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

...and WP:BLPPRODed to boot. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

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Reposting

I am reposting since this was archived without any response or action. If this report shouldn't be here, please say so and why. A response from an admin one way or the other would be appreciated.

User:Spanglej has reverted disputed content currently in discussion at the article Dimensionaut (link to discussion here:[14] and relevant prior discussion here [15]). The disputed content reverted back into the article remains unverified and unreferenced. The original editor putting the content in the article used both original research and synthesis and admits there is nothing verifiable to support the content. After being advised to do so by an administrator, I started a discussion that would hopefully lead to consensus yesterday. Today, Spanglej reverted the disputed content back into the article and about an hour later put some comments into the discussion. There is a possibility she was unaware there was consensus-seeking discussion occurring when she made the reversion, however, there was no question she knew after she posted on the talk page because she commented in the section clearly labeled "Discussion and consensus building on disputed content". No consensus has been reached, no real discussion has taken place. This action of reverting disputed content in discussion by Spanglej has all the earmarks of blatantly tendentious editing, poking, and disruption to make a point. It's pretty disappointing that I did exactly what an administrator (User:EdJohnston) advised me to do (links here:[16] [17]) and then an experienced editor refuses to take part in true and fair consensus building by choosing instead to act in a hostile and non-productive manner. I would appreciate someone looking into this and helping us toward a resolution. I have notified Spanglej of this request for administrator assistance. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 15:41, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I've invited a neutral 3rd (4th really) party to lend their experience here. I'll be watch lisaddressed days article. You've reverted that content 6 times since the beginning of the month and you currently have two users disputing your change and no one supporting it. I'd suggest you stop using the revert button immediately because you're facing a block.--v/r - TP 17:38, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

WTF? I stopped reverting days ago and started the discussio/consensus seeking as suggested by an admintrator. You comment is neither helpful nor addressing why I brought the situation here. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 22:05, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

You're lucky no one had seen your revert war days ago or else you'd have been blocked right now. You'll not find an administrator who would take action right now, especially not against those other two users. Let me point you at my new essay WP:ANI Advice.--v/r - TP 22:13, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Again, WTF? The admin who responded to the edit warring situation advised me to try for discussion and consensus - which I did - as well as promise to stop reverting - which I did. So, your assertion that "I'm lucky no one had seen" what was happening is not just innacurate, it's far from assuming good faith. Not to mention, still unhelpful. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 22:43, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I appreciate you bringing the situation to someone who has more knowledge regarding album articles. I just don't appreciate the threat of a block when that was already addressed by another administrator. He was certainly more lenient than you say you would have been, but at least he looked at the entire situation more objectively. It's always been my understanding that blocks are to be preventive and not punishment. From what you said and how you said it, you seem to be more interested in the punishment angle. EdJohnston dealt with the situation accordingly and correctly, in my view. After all, I did what was asked and kept to my word, even after Spanglej reverted inappropriately. From that situation alone, it's obvious the preventative occurred without the block. Everyone here has a learning curve, Ed Johnston seems to understand that. And truthfully, I wish more administrators did. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 22:54, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Winkelvi: The WP:3RR policy is very clear and is a hard policy, specifically meant to prevent edit warring like the type that happened in that article. It makes no difference what the merits of the content are - if you keep persistently reverting an article in cases where it's not clear vandalism, it's considered disruptive.

As TParis said, you're lucky an admin hadn't seen that war at the time - it's likely you would have been blocked temporarily for violating that rule had it come to one's attention. The proper channel is to take it to the Talk page and, if necessary, get third parties involved. Since you're now doing that, I doubt admins need to be involved at this time. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 17:44, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Having a real hard time understanding why admins keep bringing up edit warring when that issue is dead and long over with. It's no longer an issue and was dealt with by an administrator already. It wasn't even an issue when I brought this report here. I get that edit warring is disruptive, okay? I got it when Ed Johnston posted on my talk page about it more than a week ago. That's why I said I would stop doing it and followed through by no longer doing it. Isn't it time to drop the splintered and heavily used stick on that subject? All I wanted was some advice on what to do (if anything could be done) or to see some appropriate action taken in regard to Spanglej reverting disputed content when a discussion had been started. It's obvious no one is interested in anything other than beating me over the head about edit warring. Could someone just close this report out, please? -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 04:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

For my part, I was just trying to help explain the policy and the fact that it's enforced equally without regard to the content. I left you a more detailed message on my talk page. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

IP 91.155.236.125 edit-warring fringe theories

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Could I get some eyes on 91.155.236.125? They have returned after a block for edit-warring poorly referenced fringe material based on the theories of Kalevi Wiik and have made a threatening post at User talk:Thomas.W. I have warned and done one revert but am involved. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd block for a month or two, but as I was the one who did the previous two blocks, maybe it would look nicer if somebody else did the honours this time? Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Gave them a month. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 07:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

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wikihounding by Eodcarl as well as Sock puppetry by the same user.

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I'm being wikihounded by Eodcarl. I believe it stems from his editing of my comments on a talk page located here: [18] . He did not like my comments so tried to delete them initially and then edited them when I restored my comments. When that failed he then deleted his comment in which my comment was in response to. Now whenever I make an edit on any page on wikipedia he shows up on that page either deleting them (the page or my edits) or making edits to them. He initially deleted this page: [19] after I had created it, but then later reinstated it with some superfluous edits. Previously all of his edits have been to a very narrow set of pages, but now he's editing virtually every page I have recently edited. For instance, I edited the pages [20] and [21] on June 30 and magically this user shows up and edits them again later that day and edits the exact part of the page I just edited in 1 of those cases. Here's the diff for my edit: [22] and here's his: [23] . I've edited those 2 pages before and Eodcarl has never edited them until yesterday.

More examples are I also edited the page [24] , and Eodcarl shows up to make his first ever edit to this page yesterday as well. Again, I've edited this page several times before while that was the 1st edit to that page by Eodcarl. Also, I edited the pages [25] , [26] , and [27] back on June 4 and magically Eodcarl shows up on June 11 and deletes all of my legitimate edits. Here are the diffs for them [28] , [29] , and [30].

Some of the edits following mine seem superfluous while others are merely petty or confrontational in their nature. He's now established a pattern of wikihounding my contributions to wikipedia without cause other than to confront or annoy me, or to otherwise inhibit my contributions. It's also quite clear that his only reason for being on any of these pages was because he saw I had edited those pages recently through checking my "user contributions".

In addition to all of this, he created the sock GenericEditorName for editing both the talk page and the main page of [31]. As evidence that this is a sock, not only did he almost immediately begin making edits in favor of his Eodcarl identity on the talk page in addition to supporting edits (of Eodcarl) on the article itself, but he also first edited the page [32] with that sock which is meaningful because EODcarl clearly, as alluded to in his name, was an EOD technician. It's no coincidence that GenericEditorName almost exclusively edited 2 pages that Eodcarl had an ongoing interest in and the edits on the Border War talk page were all in backing up Eodcarl's POV. Kmanblue (talk) 18:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

All of my edits have improved articles, in all of the cases referenced here. Other than when appropriate, I added my own edits to improve the mentioned articles. I cannot speak to KManBlue's speculation about me personally or to the creation of a "sock." Based on this rant, I would appreciate it if KManBlue would leave me alone to my editing. I think you'll find I've edited quite a few pages exclusive to those visited by KManBlue. Eodcarl (talk) 01:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

That's utter non-sense. You're wikihounding me and making superfluous or erroneous or confrontational edits and deletions to pages you have no interest in nor any knowledge of the subject at hand. You would NEVER be on any of these pages at all if you were not wikihounding me. Now it looks like the sock [User:Aridy the Grurnp] is now wikihounding me as well. Your edits have been at best superfluous and at worst petty and confrontational. Are you denying that [user:GenericEditorName] is your sock puppet now? How odd that that user immediately joins in the editing of your most watched over page as well as the EOD section of the United States Navy page in addition to you responding to comments I had made directed at that user name. Is there any administrator around here willing to do something about this harassment? Kmanblue (talk) 06:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

KManBlue seems to be checking on the edits I make completely independent of him [33] and reverting them. As I said, I would prefer if he would stop this bullying behavior. My only interest in editing is making articles better in content, citations, grammar, spelling, etc. If I'm supposed to stay away from any articles KManBlue has ever edited, I will do that, but that should not be necessary. Eodcarl (talk) 10:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

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request for close at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Omar Todd (3rd nomination)

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I haven't notified anyone, because I am not asking for any action against anyone. This AfD has I believe, run as long as it is supposed to run and there appears to be a clear consensus. Please for the sake of all that is good in the world would someone close it before it gets any more dramatic? Gtwfan52 (talk) 07:58, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

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multiple ip vandalism on Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang

the page Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang is currently heavily vandalised by multiple ips. requesting page protection and rollback to this version from 1. July. --Doppelback (talk) 16:56, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Mattythewhite appears to be on it. DMacks (talk) 17:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

wikihounding by Eodcarl as well as Sock puppetry by the same user.

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I'm being wikihounded by Eodcarl. I believe it stems from his editing of my comments on a talk page located here: [34] . He did not like my comments so tried to delete them initially and then edited them when I restored my comments. When that failed he then deleted his comment in which my comment was in response to. Now whenever I make an edit on any page on wikipedia he shows up on that page either deleting them (the page or my edits) or making edits to them. He initially deleted this page: [35] after I had created it, but then later reinstated it with some superfluous edits. Previously all of his edits have been to a very narrow set of pages, but now he's editing virtually every page I have recently edited. For instance, I edited the pages [36] and [37] on June 30 and magically this user shows up and edits them again later that day and edits the exact part of the page I just edited in 1 of those cases. Here's the diff for my edit: [38] and here's his: [39] . I've edited those 2 pages before and Eodcarl has never edited them until yesterday.

More examples are I also edited the page [40] , and Eodcarl shows up to make his first ever edit to this page yesterday as well. Again, I've edited this page several times before while that was the 1st edit to that page by Eodcarl. Also, I edited the pages [41] , [42] , and [43] back on June 4 and magically Eodcarl shows up on June 11 and deletes all of my legitimate edits. Here are the diffs for them [44] , [45] , and [46].

Some of the edits following mine seem superfluous while others are merely petty or confrontational in their nature. He's now established a pattern of wikihounding my contributions to wikipedia without cause other than to confront or annoy me, or to otherwise inhibit my contributions. It's also quite clear that his only reason for being on any of these pages was because he saw I had edited those pages recently through checking my "user contributions".

In addition to all of this, he created the sock GenericEditorName for editing both the talk page and the main page of [47]. As evidence that this is a sock, not only did he almost immediately begin making edits in favor of his Eodcarl identity on the talk page in addition to supporting edits (of Eodcarl) on the article itself, but he also first edited the page [48] with that sock which is meaningful because EODcarl clearly, as alluded to in his name, was an EOD technician. It's no coincidence that GenericEditorName almost exclusively edited 2 pages that Eodcarl had an ongoing interest in and the edits on the Border War talk page were all in backing up Eodcarl's POV. Kmanblue (talk) 18:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

All of my edits have improved articles, in all of the cases referenced here. Other than when appropriate, I added my own edits to improve the mentioned articles. I cannot speak to KManBlue's speculation about me personally or to the creation of a "sock." Based on this rant, I would appreciate it if KManBlue would leave me alone to my editing. I think you'll find I've edited quite a few pages exclusive to those visited by KManBlue. Eodcarl (talk) 01:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

That's utter non-sense. You're wikihounding me and making superfluous or erroneous or confrontational edits and deletions to pages you have no interest in nor any knowledge of the subject at hand. You would NEVER be on any of these pages at all if you were not wikihounding me. Now it looks like the sock [User:Aridy the Grurnp] is now wikihounding me as well. Your edits have been at best superfluous and at worst petty and confrontational. Are you denying that [user:GenericEditorName] is your sock puppet now? How odd that that user immediately joins in the editing of your most watched over page as well as the EOD section of the United States Navy page in addition to you responding to comments I had made directed at that user name. Is there any administrator around here willing to do something about this harassment? Kmanblue (talk) 06:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

KManBlue seems to be checking on the edits I make completely independent of him [49] and reverting them. As I said, I would prefer if he would stop this bullying behavior. My only interest in editing is making articles better in content, citations, grammar, spelling, etc. If I'm supposed to stay away from any articles KManBlue has ever edited, I will do that, but that should not be necessary. Eodcarl (talk) 10:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

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request for close at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Omar Todd (3rd nomination)

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I haven't notified anyone, because I am not asking for any action against anyone. This AfD has I believe, run as long as it is supposed to run and there appears to be a clear consensus. Please for the sake of all that is good in the world would someone close it before it gets any more dramatic? Gtwfan52 (talk) 07:58, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

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multiple ip vandalism on Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang

the page Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang is currently heavily vandalised by multiple ips. requesting page protection and rollback to this version from 1. July. --Doppelback (talk) 16:56, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Mattythewhite appears to be on it. DMacks (talk) 17:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Difficult user

I am having some difficulty dealing with a user in Species in Defiance. the user 173.2.197.76 who recently started logging in under his/her account of [[[User_talk:Vi_Veri_Veniversum_Vivus_Vici|n]]. The article, which someone tried to speedy delete shortly after its creation, contains an enormous amount of poorly- or un-cited material. After posting about the need for this in article talk, I made a removal of material that wasn't only uncited, but simple OR. It was reverted, and I decided to stop trying to deal with the user; they aren't listening and are apparently operating with an understanding of Wikipedia that seems out of sync with everyone else here. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Do you mean Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici (talk · contribs)? If so, you needed to notify the user on their talk page. I've taken care of this. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 19:52, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that was me editing anonymously. I believe Jack Sebastian is at fault here. Yes it was my fault in not adding in citations to the page earlier...but now Jack says that even links to information posted on the official website of the TV series are not a "reliable source", which is truly baffling. Once more, the drama begins...--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici (talk) 19:57, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Links to the "official" site are handy to show a fact or two, but they don't prove it passes WP:GNG. To show a topic is "notable" (Wikipedia's definition, not yours or mine) it requires press or similar coverage outside of the ownership of the topic, from a website that passes WP:RS, ie: mainstream websites, newspapers, books, etc. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I am not opposed to the article's existence; the assertion that my issues (with the the way the article is being constructed) are all about the Deletionist Vs. Inclusionist drahmaz is simply childish. I just want the article (any article I work on, really) to actually have a chance to reach GA status. Species in Defiance is unlikely to survive an AfD in its current state (and I cannot submit it for such, as I would surely come across as having a vendetta), and that would simply be a damn shame. Rather than making this about me, I think that V⁵ should spend his/her time actually working to improve the article, not just stuff it with an indiscriminate collection of facts and hope that something sticks. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:34, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

My earlier posts were made out of frustration; I put more time into adding citations for everything, though now what constitutes a good "citation" is being debated. But I did need to get those initial citations done. I don't understand what needs to be improved to avoid AfD status.--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici (talk) 20:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

IP address causing problems

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An IP address who has been blocked twice before due to his/her disruptive edits is back at it again. He/she is removing highly relevant material without any sort of edit-summary and playing around with population statistics and figures without any references to sources. He/she is also distorting sourced information that is relevant to the article and subject. See: 1,2,3, 4, 5. Proudbolsahye (talk) 05:56, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

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Edit Warring by user Viriditas

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Despite a recent two-week block and a warning by an admin to not edit war, the user is engaging in the same problematic editing style, this time by the user's who not only initiated a wholesale deletion of sourced material that either included material that the user deemed appropriate or of a nature that three users (including myself) judge legitimate for inclusion, but did not even discuss the user's reasons for the deletion on the talk page. Usually 3O, DRN or even arbitration would be okay to handle a situation, but given this user's yen for edit warring I believe administrator intervention is necessary (or at least be helpful). Gobbleygook (talk) 05:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I have not been involved in any edit warring at this time. The opposite is true. Gobbleygook returned on 30 June from an extended absence to make an unbelievable six reverts, stalk me to Sally Field, an article he never edited before that I was currently editing, and continue his stalking over at Talk:March Against Monsanto:

• 15:37, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+220)‎ . . The Young Turks ‎ (inclusion of material approved as per 3O)
• 15:40, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+324)‎ . . Cindy Sheehan ‎ (Undid revision 560856752 by Viriditas (talk) as per talk)
• 15:47, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+1,018)‎ . . Glenn Greenwald ‎ (→‎Political views: OR)
• 15:51, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+97)‎ . . Molly Ivins ‎ (Undid revision 560856889 by Viriditas (talk))
• 16:11, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+1,286)‎ . . Cenk Uygur ‎ (as per talk, at least two editors have already noted the issue of removing description of Uygur as a progressive. Also add citation sourced by user Viriditas)
• 16:42, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+316)‎ . . Cindy Sheehan ‎ (→‎Political views: secondary sources)
• 16:53, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+88)‎ . . Sally Field ‎ (→‎Activism)
• 03:04, 1 July 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+299)‎ . . Talk:March Against Monsanto ‎ (→‎Tag re-added)

Putting aside the fact that the edit summaries are completely false (he edits weren't approved by 30, the 30 actually recommended against his edits, and this edits weren't "per talk" at all), what's even stranger is that his recent absence from 05:31, 21 June 2013—15:37, 30 June was filled by the instantaneous appearance of new user Gretchen Mädelnick (talk · contribs), a user who has now just as suddenly "disappeared" upon Gobbleygook's return to Wikipedia. As I've said several times before, this editing behavior is identical and indistinguishable to the now indefinitely blocked Festermunk (talk · contribs)[50] who had a reputation for using sock puppets, ignoring the outcome of discussions, edit warring over his disputed additions, including an obsession with labeling BLP's as "leftist" and "progressive", and stalked users to articles they never edited before, Unfortunately, an SPI did not turn up any matching technical data, with the CU saying they were editing from different continents. Viriditas (talk) 08:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Get over yourself. The world doesn't evolve around. Nobody is chasing you, other than the creatures in your fantasy. Maybe it's actually your behavior which attracts edit warring. I'm noticing you're halting the addition of even harmless non-controversial information, always under the guise of 'we' and whatnot. Basically borderlining gaming the system. Also, I told you before, I'm sick of your accusations towards my direction here and there. I have decided to file a complaint against you. It's time you need to learn to put a sockpuppet in your mouth now and then, before making allegations. It's also time you learn that not everybody has as much time to spend on the Wiki boards as you do, hence the 'disappearances' as you call it. Gretchen Mädelnick (talk) 15:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

As your second edit to Wikipedia - the day you signed up - was to award the Resilient Barnstar to Gobbleygook, stating "Tries to post the truth despite heavy opposition, opposition may include Wiki's own [biased] administrators", I would say that if you ain't got much time or interest for admins affairs, you are at least a quick study! Iselilja (talk) 16:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the compliment. Which reminds me of the fact that I need to improve that somewhat. Gretchen Mädelnick (talk) 17:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I can tell you are most definitely on your last editing legs with those wild accusations. An SPI cleared me of sockpuppetry and if you bothered to actually go through Festermunk's edits, my editing style with that user's editing style are totally different, but you still won't drop the insinuation that I am Festermunk. It's telling that you never addressed my point about your edit warring over the Cenk Uygur article, but I'm sure your sockpuppetry discussion would give the admin's here more than a hint as to why you didn't want to address that issue. Gobbleygook (talk) 19:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Where are the diffs, Gobbleygook? Stop needlessly harassing an esteemed editor of this encyclopedia who is actually here to build content productively, and go back to forming cabals of POV-pushers for political advantage with other Wikipedia social networkers. This is one more reason why all noticeboards and WP:AE should be replaced with magistrates' courts, where each side can present evidence, where the police and judicial aspects of adminship can be separated, and where impartial and dispassionate administrators can make informed decisions. Wer900 • talk 20:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

[sidenote] Appeal to authority is borderline instigating and by no means not convincing. Secondly you're making assumptions here. Anyone trying to improve and help Wikipedia doesn't make a - supposedly - esteemed editor always right nor righteous. For example, as I mentioned before, V. even holds back non-political non-offensive additions. He may mean it well, but that doesn't make his decision right. Gretchen Mädelnick (talk) 20:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

At least you've shown more insight than Viriditas's blocking admin JamesBWatson (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). Wer900 • talk 20:29, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

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Edit warring and personal attacks by user Wran

Whenever me or others ask User:Wran to justify her/his controversial changes s/he replies with comments that could be described as either upsetting [51][52][53][54] [55][56], or as personal attacks [57][58][59] ("you are the one who needs to learn how to read") [60] ("you're blithely fooling around") [61] ("adapting the same language used against me"). S/he keeps (i) removing cited content without giving a comprehensible justification [62][63], (ii) tampering with quoted/referenced material in violation of WP:INTEGRITY [64] (this is explained here), (iii) breaking 3RR [65], (iv) engaging in lame edit-warring [66][67], (v) misquoting policy to justify original research [68][69], and (vi) employing circular sourcing [70]. Furthermore several of her/his edits indicate that s/he has insufficient competence to edit: [71][72][73]. I have opened eight threads so far on her/his talk-page to ask her/him to give reasons for her/his actions but Wran's responses were highly contentious and failed to address any of the concerns I raised. I would like to stress that this is neither a content dispute nor a personal dispute. Wran regularly refuses to work together functionally, declines to communicate with anyone, and has repeatedly shown bad faith. S/he employs trolling and harassment tactics instead of carefully explaining her/his "corrections" to articles. This sort of activity is not just the sign of her/his poor understanding of Wikipedia policies but also a sign that s/he is disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Despite the fact that Wran has been given a reasonable timeframe (nearly two years) to reflect on her/his actions, her/his activity continues to cause a major disruption. —Omnipaedista (talk) 13:32, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Postscript: An apparent sockpuppet has just begun to mass-revert me using the same idiosyncratic edit summaries as Wran did [74][75]—in an attempt at retaliation, I guess. --Omnipaedista (talk) 14:37, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Interesting case. In the matter of content, Wran is correct (in the half dozen edits I looked at), and you are wrong to make reverts like this. In the matter of behavior, they're in the wrong: they are indeed rude and boorish. Then again, comments like "Wran has been given a reasonable timeframe (nearly two years) to reflect on her/his actions" is incredibly patronizing. As for the troll, I'd welcome a CU pushing some buttons, where we'll probably find that an LTV who enjoys watching this board and fucking around with us has adopted Wran's persona for a day. If CU establishes that the Male Member is indeed Wran, I'd be very surprised but there's blocks right away; if not, perhaps an interaction/hounding ban could be a solution. Drmies (talk) 15:05, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. One comment regarding content: I admit that this revert was hasty. It was made after I saw Wran's tampering with citations in a relevant article [76] (and have explained why the latter edit was inappropriate). I had no objections when Wran reverted me on this one [77]. I do not deny that several of this editor's contibutions are of value; that is why I do not see this as usual content dispute. I realize that the tone of the last sentence may sound patronizing but that wasn't my intention; I only want to stress that I have tried so many times to establish a proper conversation with Wran but her/his responses were always disorienting and arrogant. I cannot see why I should assume good faith anymore. Should I have to make a CU request personally? --Omnipaedista (talk) 15:45, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, admins with CU probably also patrol this board. I could say something like Hey! CU requested! and maybe they'll hear that. I think it should be done if only to clear Wran (if possible, of course) and focus the discussion. I don't know to which extent you and Wran overlap in editing interests, and it would be beneficial to hear from them here. Given y'all's difference in number of edits and articles edited, I imagine that an interaction ban would not necessarily be a big issue for you. Drmies (talk) 16:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I assume the latter includes: "undo editor Y's edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means)." You see, I have been editing Greek philosophy and mythology articles for the past five years and I consider myself to be a fairly established user editor on these topics. Wran has recently started to make some undeniably unconstructive edits to those areas. So, I fail to see how would an interaction ban be helpful. In any case, I am curious to see the CU results. --Omnipaedista (talk) 21:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

User: 71.70.201.160

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User:71.70.201.160 vandalized the Beyoncé Knowles discography page, and then went on to do the same to the talk pages of Beyonce Knowles and Jay-Z. I was going to warn for the instances as normal, but then realized they were on a L4 warning for disruptive editing on Knowles' tour page last month. —JennKR | ☎ 00:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Please use administrator intervention against vandalism. WP:AIV  A m i t  ❤  04:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Uhh, no, probably not since AIV usually refers LTV elsewhere, like here. Seeing as the IP was blocked 4 minutes after this was posted at ANI, I'm closing this. Rgrds. --64.85.217.52 (talk) 10:51, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

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Threat of future disruption to Wikipedia if changes not made

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• BlazeT3ck (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Operation: Bot Roast (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

User has twice threatened (in this edit summary and this talk message) to "let millions of people not have access to this place". While not a legal threat, this threat of a denial-of-service attack is clearly designed to have a chilling effect. —C.Fred (talk) 12:52, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Petty threats to me. Obviously not here to edit constructively. Elockid ^(Talk) 12:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Indeffed. WP:Not here and pure vandalism for removal of very clearly referenced information. Pay no more attention. Canterbury Tail talk 13:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Is that Wiki-terrorism? -- Jodon | Talk 13:23, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Not to reward bad behavior, but since the person being removed doesn't have an article and is only "accused", doesn't naming them go against WP:BLPCRIME? "For people who are relatively unknown, editors must give serious consideration to not including material in any article suggesting that the person has committed, or is accused of committing, a crime unless a conviction is secured." --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

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Closure at Port Moresby International High School

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This Afd was closed by someone who is not an admin( just stating fact, not taking issue with that person). There are concerns with the keep rationales which ultimately has lead school article to be kept. None of the rationales are showing any sort of notability at all, the comments are all aimed at "We keep all high school articles" Which I believe is in contravention of WP:ORG which states "No company or organization is considered inherently notable. No organization is exempt from this requirement, no matter what kind of organization it is. If the individual organization has received no or very little notice from independent sources, then it is not notable simply because other individual organizations of its type are commonly notable or merely because it exists". The other thing being linked and conveniently ignored where it suits is Wikipedia:Notability (high schools) which further states "However, this is not a loophole in Wikipedia's guidelines or policies. Like any other topic, articles on schools must be able to meet notability standards, such as those at Wikipedia: Notability and Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) specifically" Either way I don't believe that policy is being followed or are there valid rationales on why this school is notable. I have not raised this issue on the talkpage because as stated the closer is not an administrator and DRV didn't seem appropriate as it was not deleted. I have not notified anyone of the discussion because I largely think that what they will say is irrelevant to a reviewing admin. If anyone feels differently please notify whoever you think should be. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 08:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• There is an accepted notability for high schools that has been around since the 2005s and many bytes and bits have died before and after that arguing the point. On that basis, a keep close is consistent with the community norms for this kind of article and DRV is highly unlikely to overturn the close - and DRV is absolutely the place to have this discussion. DRV reviews the closure of all xFD discussions, not just deletions. I suggest you open a discussion there is you do want to contest this. Spartaz ^Humbug! 09:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The common outcomes is at [78]. Spartaz ^Humbug! 09:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
    • I will take it to DRV. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 09:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

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• Unfortunately, it's very easy (especially on en.wikipedia) to mistake descriptive documents for prescriptive ones. This has, at times, led to circular reasoning which is very hard to break out of, and leads to "keep" or "delete" decisions divorced from policy because, hey, we kept/deleted some similar articles last year, and those in turn were kept/deleted because of a document describing the outcomes of AfD discussions on other articles...
• AfD is surely a place to assess each article on its merits. It is perplexing that discussion on an article's AfD can be overriden by the result of a discussion on a previous AfD of a different article. I have unhappy memories of a time when this circular reasoning delivered results which directly contradicted the outcome of an RfC... this isn't a failure of one particular notability guideline but rather of how we think about process and precedent. (Sorry, somehow managed to start typing a reply to Spartaz without getting an edit-conflict with subsequent edits closing the thread &c...) bobrayner (talk) 14:32, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
  • A certain degree of consistency is appropriate for an encyclopedia. We can best attain this by having criteria that are unambiguous and not subject to interpretation, with as few borderline cases as possible. The virtue of the high school practice is that it does just that,avoid the previous situation with a dozen high school AfDs a day that yielded results not much better than random, and creating a situation where nobody could tell in advance if their work on an article of this type would be wasted. The flip side, that we almost never accept primary schools, is equally useful in advising people. DGG ( talk ) 17:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Medea statue in Batumi, Georgia

I'm a little concerned about the fact that several Georgian editors have appeared out of the woodwork to support an image which barely has a chance of surviving a deletion discussion, let alone a chance of passing at FPC. It was nominated by Giorgi Balakhadze (talk · contribs), and Fiqriasidamonize (talk · contribs) (who has only a couple of other edits), MIKHEIL (talk · contribs), Medgeorgia (talk · contribs), ITshnik (talk · contribs) and Jaba1977 (talk · contribs) (all of whom otherwise haven't edited in weeks) all arrived in quick succession, supporting the image without comment. It's clearly been advertised somewhere, but it is not clear where, and this just reeks of meatpuppetry and/or canvassing. What is the procedure, here? J Milburn (talk) 23:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

It's ok, it was my first try and I made some mistakes, in the future I'll be more careful, by the way at the time when they supported that image, it hadn't been nominated for deletion.--g. balaxaZeႫ 01:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

No, it isn't OK. Where did you advertise this nomination? J Milburn (talk) 09:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I found it. It's on there (translation. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 15:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

That's probably the most blatant canvassing I have ever seen. J Milburn (talk) 16:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Thomas Paine1776 move warring and content warring at Decline of Detroit

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Take a look at the log of Decline of Detroit and you will see User:Thomas Paine1776's repeated attempts to whitewash the article of negative content and to move the title to a more bland name. This editor has been overly promotional and disruptive in the past at the Detroit article but had seemingly accepted consensus by staying away from it for the month of June. Now he's on the move again. Binksternet (talk) 01:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• This strikes me as an editing matter for the talk page of the piece. TP1776 clearly has concerns with the POV of the piece and I'm not sure that he's in the wrong about them. Carrite (talk) 02:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• It became a behavioral matter when TP1776 repeated his move after being reverted by two editors, when he repeated his deletions/whitewashes after being reverted by two editors.[79][80][81][82][83] The guy is uncommunicative, so your suggestion we engage his concerns on the talk page is impractical. There is a long history here, with lots of discussion visible at Talk:Detroit,_Michigan/archive6#Decline_of_Detroit_Section and four more threads underneath that one. You can see TP1776's talk page contributions stopped on March 15, 2013, though we were talking through April about issues crucial to him. Binksternet (talk) 02:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Well, the move bit is simple. It's protected for now, and any move should follow an RM discussion. Placing a note on the talk page with some diffs should help the next time this comes up, if there is a next time. And I do believe that talk page sections/comments are the best way to win an audience for you--more helpful than just diffs. Drmies (talk) 02:37, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with Carrite--I don't really see the whitewashing in their edits. I do, however, believe that the title is itself POV since it's recentist. But moves should be properly discussed, and thus I've move-protected the article for two weeks. Odd how empty the talk page is. Hint. Hint. Drmies (talk) 02:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• POVFork. AfD nuclear may become an option. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 03:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• No, it is a valid topic, supported by dozens of books that bear on the issue of Detroit's decline. Detroit's decline is the top example of urban decay in the US. Binksternet (talk) 03:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

"Detroit's decline is the top example of urban decay in the US." Is POV. We don't write titles to state a thesis. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• It is not a POVFork. It is an expansion of the section found in Detroit, referenced by multiple sources. According to your logic, Fall of the Western Roman Empire is a POVFork of Roman Empire. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

According to Fall of the Western Roman Empire, it occurred 1500 years ago. So, no the same logic does not apply. According to your logic, where is the article Decline of Britain? It was surely the world super-power that is no more. Where is the Decline of the British Empire? Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Valid topics. I look forward to you starting the articles. And if "Decline" is POV, so are "Growth", "Boom Years", and "Recovery", all of which are pretty commonly used. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

What articles are you talking about with those titles? Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

"Decline of Detroit" is recentist as well as POVish. The Roman Empire fell, that can't be denied, and we've had 1500 years to ponder that. This one, we're right in the middle of it. But "decline" isn't even defined--in economic terms, social terms, what? The wildlife living in those urban prairies or whatever they're called won't think of it as a decline. Maybe the morals of the people of Detroit have improved greatly, or their health, now that they have vegetable yards on every block. Moreover, this is probably going to be over in a few years, at which point it will be clear that the title should have had some years attached to it as well. But we should discuss this on the article talk page. Drmies (talk) 14:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The article takes the name of the section header in the Detroit article. Here's one with similar headers: History_of_the_Las_Vegas_Valley. Here's a FA with "decline": [[Parthian_Empire]. Here's one with "economic collapse", "chaos", and "economic miracle": History_of_Germany --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Context. It needs context and perspective. We don't have New York Dropping Dead ref: [84], and we don't want Wikipedia buries Detroit. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to hash out a proposed name somewhere that isn't ANI? The article appears to be move protected, so there is no imminent threat of shenanigans - so how's about we all have a nice cup of coffee and discuss it somewhere? UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 14:47, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh no, no more coffee. Why don't you putzz your moneyzz where your mouth izz and clozze thizz thread? Thankzz, Drmies (talk) 18:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Stacking sources in a list in the discussion page illustrates it is not balanced, and hardly encyclopedic content, WP:Is not a newspaper. Actually, its the complaining editor that appears disruptive - removed a good citation regarding revitalization investment previously to begin balancing the section - and seems to have a history of receiving comments regarding behavior. The city is in the midst of a major revitalization, so inserting a 1970s view is an out of date view of the city and gives undue weight. Many cities saw change after the construction of freeways in the 1950s, again not notable, so Detroit's newer configuration, investment, and migration patterns are typical of cities like Atlanta, thus an assertion of decline is opinion. The Detroit region is actually much more populous and probably more prosperous at present than it was in the 1950s, apart from the 2009 recession and subsequent recovery. No mention is given to the role of public sector unions and union agreements in straining the cities finances, the city presently takes in quite a bit of money from casinos, large corporations, and contains massive Chrysler assembly plant, has a major university employer as well. The city of Detroit proper at present has a much higher population density than Atlanta for example, similar in demographics to Detroit, with suburbs and freeways. The comprehensive study of city's residential property does not support the blight theory, in spite of assertions, the Detroit Free Press noted that the good news from the study was the city of Detroit properties are mostly in good condition, the comprehensive study recommended only 1% of properties needed demolition and a substantial portion of those have been demolished or are being demolished, a collection of commercial buildings await developers, or need permits to demolish, thus the pessimistic view is more WP:Funcruft and WP:Coatrack, and not realistic or encyclopedic. The stats also show 2.9% homeowner vacancy in the city of Detroit which is in line with the national average, as opposed the pessimistic assertions of so called sources and blogs, and the city's 15% apartment vacancy rate is not untypical, especially in light of redeveloped high rises seeking tenants. The numbers of crimes in the region have decreased with the suburbanization of the area. The FBI has cautioned not to use its crime data to generate crime rates to compare cities and the American Association of Criminologists has denounced the use of crime rates as an "irresponsible misuse" of data, this is noted in the city's crime article, the use of weasel words such as 'dangerous' cities should be removed, such words are media hysteria, not for and not encyclopedic in tone. The Forbes source (cited by the CBS source) discourages using crime rates as well, such usage is arguably not encyclopedic, and needs to be rewritten in the article. Sources cited are loaded with opinion. One of the sources added is a blog. There is need to clean-up these additions to make them encyclopedic. Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 22:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Sorry, but that's not to the point and it needs paragraphing. This is not the place to wage this content discussion in this way and, at any rate, this didn't address the non-consensual moving you did. Someone close this? Drmies (talk) 22:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The move is basically to a neutral title for that article, which it should have. Have also sought to accommodate and include the encyclopedic content and reasonable concerns of others including the editor in question.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 23:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Strange username/IP and the Dantherocker1 association

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I discovered this afternoon that my talk page was vandalized by a strange name: 2602:304:cd01:1f59:54d7:14eb:ae2f:5335. Furthermore it appears to have used by a sock farm from 2011, (original account User:Dantherocker1), who caused a major disruption throughout Wikipedia and eventually started harassing me on Wikipedia and YouTube. NHRHS2010 the student pilot ✈ 21:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

You can't claim that an IP is being used by the same person who was using it in 2011, without some evidence to back that up. Do you have any? 78.149.172.10 (talk) 21:45, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I am being suspicious because the Dantherocker1 sockpuppets have targeted me in the past. So it could be either him or someone copying him. NHRHS2010 the student pilot ✈ 21:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• The "strange name" is just an IPv6 address. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

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User:Dougweller misuse of full protection

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Dougweller fully protected this page directly after editing to his favored version. The protection policy states that "Administrators should not protect or unprotect a page to further their own positions in content disputes." Which this user is apparently doing. He continues to edit through the full protection, despite consensus currently running counter to his views on the talk page. An administrator editing through their own full protection is a clear COI violation. In summary, the protection was out of policy, and the protection to a favored version even more so. His claim in the protection summary, that it is a BLP issue, is not, as far as I can tell based in policy, since "BLP applies to all material about living persons anywhere on Wikipedia" while an external link is clearly not 'on Wikipeida'. Regards, Crazynas ^t 19:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Seems like a clear case of WP:IAR to me. And he did say anyone who wanted to challenge the edit could do so privately. Perhaps that would have been a good idea. As the website in question routinely outs Wikipedia editors, I assume that's the reason for him removing the URL (and that's all he did). §FreeRangeFrog^croak 19:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I did contact him first. Crazynas ^t 21:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd close this, but I'm walking out the door. Suffice it to say that DougWeller has asked for advice and the matter is being discussed. IAR is a perfectly valid policy for this action, which cannot be discussed on wiki. Any questions, feel free to pass them to the Arbitration committee. There is no rush for the article to be unprotected until this is resolved. Worm^TT(talk) 19:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

WTT, just to be clear, you're invoking a Smoke-filled room in this case? Crazynas ^t 19:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

ECx2 - I agree with the above. Dougweller made only two edits - both removing the URL to the subject website. Since the website contains or has contained material that violates our BLP policy, removing a link to that website is reasonable - the content might not be on wikipedia, as Crazynas correctly notes, but it is the inclusion of the material via the link that causes the problem. Given that the inclusion of the link is under discussion at the article's talk page, I'm not sure what else needs to be done here. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 19:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Doug has no authority to protect a page based on his not liking something. He removed the external link, whose presence follows weeks of contentious debate, and was likely disruptive editing in itself. A minute after his removing the link to Wikipediocracy.com, he locked the page, so misusing the tools to get an upper-hand in a content dispute (in which he did not even allow others the opportunity to engage). He has admitted to these gross errors of judgment, but still has not removed the page lock. He should be desysopped immediately. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC) 20:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

It is possible that the reason the article is still protected is because no one wants to touch it with a ten foot pole. And given the reception Doug got when he took administrative action there, I can't say I blame them. Doug seems to have conceded that he overreacted, discussion is now ongoing, and there is no requirement that we have a link to that website RIGHT NOW. Given that consensus in that discussion seems to agree that the link is appropriate, I expect it will be restored shortly. And the earth will continue to spin. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 19:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

This is all a bit silly, since (a) we've seen this movie before and we all know how it turns out; (b) Dougweller left a link to wikipediocracy.com in the article; and (c) there is nothing preventing anyone from creating links to [the web site outside of that article. Perhaps the real issue here is that Dougweller has not sufficiently explained why he took these actions, or what these actions are meant to accomplish. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Might I suggest that all combatants put down their clubs and parse WTT's statement very carefully, but I'll provide a crib sheet for those who don't have time. An Arbitrator has indicated that the admin in question is seeing advice about how to defuse this. The arbitrator further indicates that IAR is applicable and cannot be discussed in public. The arbitrator requests that questions be directed to ArbCom. While I have disagreed (both privately and publically) that ArbCom has made bad decisions in the past, I see no reason to doubt the necessity of restricting the editing of an article about a webiste that is critical of wikipedia. Hasteur (talk) 20:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Dougweller has already admitted his error in protecting the page because he did not like something he'd just removed, the gravity of which increases the longer the improper page-protection stays. ArbCom really has no moral authority to lecture the community about its private wisdom, after its repeated and shameless outing of Malleus F. Next year's ArbCom may have some credibility. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)(Damn, I thought I'd done this when I got home an hour ago, didn't notice the edit conflict - I apologise for that, but my wife was waiting for me to come watch TV.).It's a bit odd that although there was a discussion about my actions at Talk:Wikipediocracy that this was brought here by someone who wasn't involved there and after I posted as follows: "Ok, any Admin who wishes to revert, go ahead. I've managed to get some advice on this and although I don't like links like this specific one at this specific moment, we evidently do allow links that attack or out editors here no matter what they say. Dougweller (talk) 4:27 pm, Today (UTC+1) Dougweller (talk) 4:27 pm, Today (UTC+1)" And yes, this was about outing. Although I may have encountered this editor before, I don't recall any such encounters. I really don't understand what's going on. I thought someone would have unprotected it by now, so I look at the talk page and see a request to add the protection template, which I've done. Now I'm being accused of being involved in a content dispute (which I gather is about links but as I haven't actually been involved in it I'm not aware of it) and an immediate de-sysop is being requested. I have not admitted to gross errors of judgement (check the talk page to see what I actually said) and there is a discussion as to whether the link should be restored. I repeat here, any Admin who wants to unprotect is free to do so without me suggesting they are wheelwarring. Dougweller (talk) 20:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for removing the protection. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. Ironically I think it would have been removed at RPP in my absence(since I'd made it clear I wouldn't object) if this thread hadn't been opened. Note that I saw my action as short term and not involved in whatever content dispute there was about badsites or whatever. And I'm still not convinced that protecting privacy is less important than having an url in an article for something that can easily be found with a search engine. Dougweller (talk) 20:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually I have the feeling it is a good thing you did remove the full-protection yourself. Lectonar (talk) 20:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• This drama was a good way to attract attention to that website normally ignored by most. Streisand effect and all that. Someone not using his real name (talk) 21:19, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• [85] Crazynas ^t 21:25, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• I had never seen that site before. But this project does have problems which should be highlighted. Taroaldo ✉ 22:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Between editor troll Keifer and your own posts Crazynaslt it surely is a Streisand effect. Perhaps not pointing it out may have helped? Complex stuff, clearly. Pedro :  Chat  21:31, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Implying that we, not the incorrect full-protection was the cause of the effect? Crazynas ^t 21:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Not exactly, no. Implying that by banging on about it you get the effect. Complex stuff, as I said. Pedro :  Chat  21:49, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Why is it that whenever an admin does something controversial, someone is bound to demand a de-sysop? Some people can hardly wait to gripe about admins. AutomaticStrikeout  ?  21:34, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• As far as I'm concerned the issue is resolved (Dougweller unprotected the page). Crazynas ^t 21:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Indeed. Close anyone..? Pedro :  Chat  21:52, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Arbcom

If anyone missed it, the drama continues at WP:RFAR. Someone not using his real name (talk) 01:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• @Automatic Stikeout above. Because abuse of administrative tools should be cause for desysopping abusive administrators, plain and simple. Does this rise to that level? Maybe, maybe not. It's certainly discussable... I personally have no tolerance for an administrator making an edit and then using full protection to enforce that edit. Having deletion and protection buttons does not make Administrators the "boss" of content any more than an untooled editor. Carrite (talk) 02:23, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • In general I agree it's a bad idea. But inflexibility is rarely a good thing, and if in a BLP article there is repeated addition of offending content and an Admin removes that and protects the article, it's certainly acceptable. This was, IMHO, similar, although I can see now that there is strong feeling that we should link to the home page no matter what it says. I'm not convinced. From my perspective, I saw a problem and tried to deal with it. It didn't occur to me to read the talk page first - maybe I should have, but as they say hindsight is 20/20. I then asked for advice, listened to it and what was said on the talk page, stated that I was ok with being reverted, told the Admin who had thought of reverting me, and posted to RPP repeating that. I then went about my real life affairs. When I found out that nothing had happened I unprotected the page. I don't think my actions were those of an abusive administrator. Other people will no doubt disagree with me. Dougweller (talk) 05:03, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
    • FWIW, I think AGK's analysis at the RFAR page is pretty close to the mark. And, whatever one thinks of that website, you have to agree that the epic flipout about your protection should give them content for weeks. There was no abuse here - you acted boldly, saw that consensus leaned in a different direction, and approved someone reverting. I still think no one reverted because that article (and its topic) are a goddamn trainwreck of drama and outing and wtfomgbbq. So you came back later, shrugged, and reverted yourself. That's not the hallmark of an admin drunk with power. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 12:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

      Unilaterally removing the content (http://wikipediocracy.com) was likely disruptive, given the weeks of discussion on the Wikipediocracy article, with extensive discussion of the external link, but even more likely done in good faith.

      • The pre-emptive page-protection was the serious misuse of tools, a clear violation of several policies, the reversal of which Doug approved rather quickly. The "epic flipout" was by administrators not correcting the policy violations as soon as they were recognized. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:51, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

        Shit happens. It was a mistake that was corrected as soon as the person making it realised that there was a discussion about it. We're all allowed to make mistakes, so get on with your life. Making this kind of big drama of it is just plain silly. And requesting a de-sysop for it is clearly over the top. Thomas.W (talk) 13:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• • • • (ecx2) But that's my point. The protection caused drama, which almost immediately spawned a fairly heated talk page thread and an equally heated ANI thread (and now, indirectly, an RFAR). And that drama, for good or ill, likely gave some admins pause - I'm sure as hell not going to wade into that sort of a dispute by doing anything that might be seen as wheel warring. I think this topic gets a lot of editors on both sides of the discussion very very angry - as your comments yesterday demonstrate. You feel very strongly about this issue, as do others - and that's not always a recipe for calm and reasoned discussion. Not assigning blame, but everyone reacting to everyone else just escalated the issue and pissed a lot of people off. I think that whether Doug should be sanctioned for protecting the article should be less of a topic for discussion than why he believed (as I and others did) that the article needed to be protected in the first place. The discussion at the talk page (and, God help us, at RFAR) could serve to clarify that question. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:24, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Page protection against administrators?

• • • • • The article has a history of inducing bizarre behavior in normally reliable administrators. Salvio Guiliani removed a request for an outside administrator (and threatened blocks) to remove the protection (with the approval of Doug), Bbb23 blocked me for "edit warring" (one of the reverts being restoring a needed hyphen), etc. Perhaps there should be a protection on the page against administrators? Maybe administrators should be required to get prior approval from ANI/AN before using/abusing their tools? There is more of a history of administrative abuse than of edit warring. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:14, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

        • • • What I, as an until now totally uninvolved editor, see when looking at the article and its edit history is a systematic attempt by one or more users to use the article, and the drama created around it, to draw attention to the subject of the article. Or in other words a series of deliberate attempts to create controversy here in order to promote the other site. Thomas.W (talk) 14:21, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

You don't seem to be an administrator or a regular around these here parts. Names and diffs are required from the lower classes. Just a friendly warning.... Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:46, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Not being a regular here adds extra weight to my comments as it makes me see things clearer. Just FYI. As for "lower classes" I guess that says a lot more about you than about me or anyone/anything else, because I don't see any stratification here, or any "us vs them". But I do see people who seem to get a kick out of creating unnecessary drama. Thomas.W (talk) 15:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Kiefer.W: "The lower classes"? There's no such distinction - being a regular only means you have a reputation. Being an admin only means you have access to some extra tools. But being a new editor, a new visitor to AN/I, or even an IP editor doesn't make someone a member of a "lower class", and people here really ought to know better than that. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 17:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

@K-Skunk: K-Wolf forgot to use the sarcasm font. Carrite (talk) 18:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

All too easy for sarcasm to be lost in translation. I advise being careful with it. :) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 19:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Thomas.W,

Names and diffs, please. Why are you badmouthing editors without naming them? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

<Yawn>. More drama. Don't you have anything better to do than this? Thomas.W (talk) 20:04, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Insults and harassment against a French sysop

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Hello,

Please check this, that can be translated by « You know who I am ? You bloody vermin, you will suffer when I am back ». We don't know who this account belongs to on WP:fr but can you please block it ? Thanks by advance. — S t a r u s – ¡Dímelo! – 20:05, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Username seems to be the same on fr.wp and is indefinitely blocked there. The user is clearly here (as there, apparently) only to harass. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The username on WP:fr is supposed to be a sockpuppet but we have no information yet about it. — S t a r u s – ¡Dímelo! – 20:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:11, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your action - --Lomita (talk) 21:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Though the account is blocked now, nobody seemed to care to remove the not so veiled threats against 2 other :en-accounts from User talk:DieuDuSite. Also, the content on User:DieuDuSite isn't that appropriate. IMO, both pages should be blanked and eventually a block-note added. --Túrelio (talk) 06:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done now by Future Perfect at Sunrise. --Túrelio (talk) 13:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Apparent block evasion by RetroArch editor

Not sure if this is true block evasion or just that the editor in question has more than one IP address to begin with (or, perhaps, that there's more than one insane individual in that camp), but 77.166.85.169 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is now going around to the same spots as our friend at 84.26.108.111 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (who was blocked on Friday), once again accusing people of being "technically challenged", playing favorites with Higan (emulator) (and on his own talk page), etc.

The attitude is just the tiniest bit calmer at the moment, but otherwise the same as 84.26. We do happen to have a merge discussion underway at Talk:Higan (emulator), which I was going to formalize today when I had time. But yeah, same general pattern of paranoia, makes me believe this is the same person. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 15:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, as you probably saw, I came to this conclusion as well, and outright asked him. I figured he'd probably answer honestly, as he's been rather open and brash about not following policy, but he hasn't edited since... Sergecross73 msg me 15:46, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Possibly meat puppetry, but my money is on sock puppetry. Either way, there is puppetry going on. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 15:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Labels like "insane" can be provocative; let's not add more fuel to the fire. bobrayner (talk) 17:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry. It's just that there's been such a history with this person/team that it's hard to imagine what might be going on with them. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 17:49, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This is the original IP he was using. Then he switched to another one, and then back to this one. It's probably a work/home thing. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 05:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Funny how a holy trio (Harizotoh9/KieferSkunk/Sergecross73) are colluding at every opportunity with their paranoid and delusional fantasies that the same person they previously banned is trying to '*ban evade*' / *stalk* / whatever irrational accusations they can come up with.

Funny also how they are allowed to get away with this to the point where they start making inflammatory comments regarding an entire community/team - and how the other Wikipedia admins just allow them to run roughshot with this.

Funny also how these same trio are end-user videogame skiddies - totally unqualified to actually make any decisions at all on any of these subjects since their technical merit is rather .... lacking.

Oh well, I'm glad at least one person in here picked up on the rather personal bias that is peppering KieferSkunk's allegations so far (accusations such as someone being 'insane', whatever). I'm wondering - what do your lovely 'Wikipedia policies' have to state about ad-hominem attacks, ganging up, stalking and not allowing an entire team to correct you on obvious misinformation?

Frankly, like Squarepusher, I can no longer be bothered to talk to you guys - it looks more and more like a desperate clown show to try to get you guys educated on *anything* in particular. So continue spewing forth your misinformation, delete what you like - it's obvious to three guys in particular, 'neutrality' can not be assumed and it's just a matter of trolling (as evidenced by KieferSkunk's earlier comments - 'Merge: At this point, I have to agree with the folks below that there doesn't appear to be enough reliable source material to warrant a full article. I say merge and redirect. (And that has only a little to do with the rather long and vitriolic dispute with the IP editor claiming to be this project's lead developer.) ' (backtracking on earlier 'votes' he makes because he doesn't like the person). One other example - "Perhaps I've given you way too much slack, and we should have just blocked you four hours ago. Certainly would have been less disruptive" - delusions of grandeur believing he is solely in charge of such decisions. ONe more example - oh wait - that already passed by the Administrators' noticeboard - where you admitted to *trolling* just because you don't like the person involved.

Anyway, since a holy trio has decided to set itself up as judge, jury and executioner, I'd have to say - delete any page you want, censor anything you want, create as much misinformation as you want, believe things based on ignorance - we as developers will no longer try to factually correct you since it seems the facts don't matter.

I have to agree with Squarepusher - you've made yourself look quite bad. I can no longer take this 'encyclopedia' seriously - if this kind of activity and 'decisionmaking goes on', people could rightfully call this the 'Reddit/4chan of encyclopedias'. 77.166.85.169 (talk) 10:06, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Wow, another anti-Wikipedia rant... Sergecross73 msg me 13:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Not that I expect it'll make much difference, but people are allowed to change their minds. I voted to give you more time to establish notability in your article. Nothing came of it - only a couple of marginally acceptable sources were offered up at any point in your long diatribes against Wikipedia. Based on that (and that ALONE, I'll add), I opted to change my vote to support the redirect - I added the note about the dispute because part of my decision was based on how it didn't appear that you were willing to work constructively with us and nobody else appeared to be willing to work on the article at all.

And as for my "trolling": I apologized directly for engaging in trollish behavior. This is me taking responsibility for actions that were unconstructive. It's me admitting that, yes, I can get riled up, and I occasionally do let people get under my skin, and sometimes I don't handle it the best way possible. I like to think it reflects a level of maturity and self-awareness that people appreciate in communities like this one. Perhaps you might give it a try sometime? — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Last note, btw: You said "we as developers will no longer try to factually correct you since it seems the facts don't matter." As a matter of fact, the applicable policy to that one is Verifiability, Not Truth. Wikipedia readers must be able to independently verify your factual statements. Otherwise, it puts your article in the category of "Just take our word for it", which is not how things work here. If you have a problem with that policy, you should take it up at the policy page itself. Keep in mind, though, that that policy is one of Wikipedia's core policies, and has gone virtually unchanged for more than a decade, with the consensus of thousands of users. You are certainly welcome to contest it if you think it's wrong, but I'm just guessing here that you're not going to get very far with it if you go in with the attitude you've been displaying here. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

And lest I be accused of playing favorites with other articles that don't abide by the Notability and Verifiability policies, Wikipedia editors are not omniscient. We aren't capable of knowing every single article on the project that doesn't meet those standards. We rely on alert editors who find such content and flag it for review, or in more obvious cases just correct the problem. Someone just pointed out that the MAME article doesn't even meet the standards in its current form. That will need to be addressed too. I just wanted to head off that particular argument at the pass, since I know it would be coming otherwise. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Further disruption by IP

The IP, out of arguments, has resorted to tagging all my articles for "notability". He made a very clear declaration of doing so in bad faith. I've warned him several times to stop, of no avail. Normally, I'd feel this is so overt that it would invoke the "any reasonable admin" clause of INVOLVED, (Many of his comments show he absolutely has no conception of the GNG, or willingness to learn it, so its impossible for this to be done in good faith anyways) but this guy's already so full of conspiracy theories regarding Wikipedia and its editors, I'd really prefer to have someone else help me with this. Sergecross73 msg me 14:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Likewise, that's why I'm not enforcing a block on this user either - he's already accused Sergecross, myself and Harizotoh of being part of some "holy trio". Of course, he's also accused Wikipedia of being a "hive mind", so I guess it probably doesn't matter that much. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 15:36, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:DUCK

To avoid erroneous accusations in the future, RetroArch is in no way associated with Retrolord. Just thought I'd let y'all know. ★★RetroLord★★ 14:45, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Retrolord, you weren't mentioned anywhere in this thread. Are you not topic banned from "all admin pages (including talk pages), including ANI, AN, AN3, ARB and others"? I don't see how commenting here is at all helpful or necessary.--Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 16:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by drg55

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Wrong venue
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED). Appealing user drg55 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Drg55 (talk) 06:04, 4 July 2013 (UTC) Sanction being appealed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Drg55 Administrator imposing the sanction Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Notification of that administrator http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise&diff=562793562&oldid=562793465 Statement by drg55 1. Rush to judgement, I was topic banned from Scientology and religion before I had a chance to respond. 2. I am being accused under Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology#Single purpose accounts with agendas I have exposed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bare-faced_Messiah#Complaints_by_User:Drg55 that user MartinPoulter has an agenda against Scientology, http://infobomb.org/ Not only is he giving talks "around the country" (usually in pubs) http://biasandbelief.wordpress.com/martins-talks-and-lectures/ but he has a 20 year history of attacks on Scientology in alt.religion.Scientology http://www.spaink.net/cos/mpoulter/scum.html ("Three religions take your pick" by Martin is incoherent undergraduate abuse) Martin mentions "bias research" on his user page, but does not mention his history of antagonism to Scientology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MartinPoulter#Scientology.2FDianetics He claims credit for writing the Bare-Faced Messiah page along with Prioryman who complained about me leading to my block. 3. Scientology is one of the most popular items on the internet in Wikipedia we out rate Christianity yet what is characteristic is a new form of fascism which is intolerant of other points of view, I described it as (unreconstructed neo fascist) hence the rush to block me contrary to neutral point of view. 4. The edit which resulted in a warning for me was my deletion of a line from a newspaper article which was factually incorrect by comparison with the book. Prioryman calls this original research, I call it an unreliable source. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=560476870&oldid=560410248 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=559685829&oldid=550158142 Additionally in the summary of the book I added in that disaffected Scientologists were a source, Prioryman said that was original research, so I deleted the lines about FoI docs and stolen diaries being used in the book, as they were not sourced either. I think a little common sense would apply as per WP:IAR. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=560477183&oldid=560476870 5. Fut.Perf says: "I don't think I need to read much further than the "unreconstructed neo fascist" bit or the "our critics are generally insane" bit here [86]. Topic-banned. Fut.Perf." Actually our critics are generally insane and go completely overboard applies mainly to the sources used in the book and some of the other attackers over the years and is one reason why we are still here. It is a bit of a freudian slip where Fut.per identifies editors as critics. 6. The article has a section "Reaction from Hubbard's followers", surely here one would find some comments. I put some in http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bare-faced_Messiah&diff=562506859&oldid=562495611 Prioryman called them bad sources. There is a difference I have had trouble getting across to him that while yes a blog may not be a very good source, just like newspaper articles which are rushed and rewritten from previous articles as source, but if a person makes a personal statement in a blog, and the object in this case is the "Reaction from Hubbard's followers" then it is factual and valid. Similarly with the Scientology website and and Independent Scientologist website on Bare-Faced Messiah (wise old goat - Michel Snoeck), which is referenced here http://scientologistsfreezone.com/links.shtml. As it happens while I used to be an official for the Church and I have discussions with them from time to time I have been told they don't like me referencing Freezone Scientology, and they would prefer if I wasn't editing Wikipedia Scientology references for that matter. I don't happen to agree with the Free zone, but then I don't always agree with current management either, however I support the Church for pragmatic reasons, more right than wrong. I put these quotes in because Prioryman wanted me to get a source to say that BFM was based on disaffected Scientologists so I found one. He deleted it and I admit I put it back in with further comments. I might get a better source later on if I am permitted to continue editing. 7. I therefore request that the block be lifted, or if I am to be blocked Martin Poulter is also blocked. I still don't know Prioryman's orientation because he didn't answer my questions, but it can be expected that at least half of editors in Scientology issues are from opposed sources. The answer I think is a bit of tolerance all round. 8 The internet war with Scientology began originally by anti religious kidnappers and skeptics, the article "cult" (the most visited in Wikipedia) states that ideas of "brainwashing" in new religious groups are discreditted "In the late 1980s, psychologists and sociologists started to abandon theories like brainwashing and mind-control. While scholars may believe that various less dramatic coercive psychological mechanisms could influence group members, they came to see conversion to new religious movements principally as an act of a rational choice" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult#Anti-cult_movements_and_their_impact Legal victories such as the destruction of Cult Awareness Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_Awareness_Network played a part. Scientology now has sufficient religious recognition that views otherwise should be viewed as prejudice. However pockets remain and Martin Poulter thinks we are a cult and it certainly drives the skeptics to drink. I don't really mind contrary views in wikipedia as long as I can get in balancing statements. I appeal to administrators to allow me to continue. Statement by Fut.Perf Apparently Drg55 thinks that calling other people "unreconstructed neo-fascists" and "insane" is okay if it's not directed at fellow editors but at people outside Wikipedia. Well, it is not. Moreover, the "neo-fascist" bit clearly was directed also at fellow editors. Drg55 apparently cannot see anything wrong with it, and just wants to be allowed to continue editing as before. Recommend speedy closure and rejection of this appeal, and possibly a block for repeating the insults even in this appeal. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:29, 4 July 2013 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 1) Statement by (involved editor 2) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by drg55 (1) I see one editor hereunder ridiculing a certain belief system, and calling names that Future Perfect says shouldn't be called. No belief system can be judged rationally, there is a belief system that considers that all women are descendents of a mother female who was made by a superior being from the ribs of a male. Or that a certain human was born asexually, or that the world was created in six days and the male being who created it rested on the seventh. So beliefs are beliefs. Since I'm uninvolved I haven't checked on the issue so I can't comment on Wikipedia violations by the editor being discussed. I like others would need time. (2) It is also seen that there wasn't too much discussion on the enforcement request, and opportunity to respond was not afforded. (3) I also suggest that the said editor strike out the fascist comments, and apologise for hurt they cause, whether intended or not. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:16, 4 July 2013 (UTC) I also don't understand why Saedon and Thomas are using the sub-section reserved for admins? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC) Result of the appeal by drg55 This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. No idea why this is on AN/I, but let's be direct here: scientology is a ridiculous cult and we do not need members of said cult to build our articles on the subject. Your violations of policy aside, after reading your contributions it's clear you lack the competence to contribute to WP in a constructive fashion. I understand we have a certain level of decorum here, wherein we generally don't call out editors on their beliefs, but in cases where editors are attempting to push an abjectly inane belief system we need to drop the facade and simply call a spade a spade. Sædontalk 09:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC) I'd like to chime in here too (starting by saying that I'm uninvolved on WP but not totally uninvolved in discussions regarding the cult of Scientology since I was actively involved in the often very heated discussions on alt.religion.scientology during the 1990s). Giving mouthpieces for the so-called Church of Scientology free rein on articles about Scientology on Wikipedia is like giving members of the propaganda ministries of the most extreme right and left wing political groups free rein on articles regarding their organisations and the activities of said organisations. So I most definitely support slapping editing restrictions on drg55. Thomas.W talkrap sheet 09:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC) Wrong purview This does not belong here, and no further comments should take place here. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:52, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(ec) To be fair, last time I looked the rules seemed to say that appeals can be both at AE and at other noticeboards, but if anything, AN would certainly be more suitable than ANI. Why not simply copy it over to AE now? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit Warring by user Viriditas again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Despite a recent two-week block, a warning by an admin to not edit war and a recent AN/I report, the user is engaging in the same problematic editing style, this time by the user who initiated a wholesale revision of currently disputed material despite being notified (by me) of the proper editing Wikipedia procedures in cases of dispute over contentious material, starting with 30 (or RFC), then DRN, etc. The editor doesn't seem to understand the basic Wikipedia principle of trying to collaborate in cases of disagreements, so at this point somebody has to just step in and do something about this user's habit of edit warring. Gobbleygook (talk) 07:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

The recent ANI report you refer to was filed by yourself, and I believe you were told not to file more of these ANI reports. Regards,Iselilja (talk) 08:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't told not to file more of the AN/I reports, what was written (and the reason for which the AN/I was closed) was that "sniping is not permitted at WP:ANI." I'm not sure what "sniping" means but if the admin is insinuating that the reports are frivolous, then I absolutely disagree as you have an editor who is habitually disregarding fundamental Wikipedia editing norms and regulations. Gobbleygook (talk) 10:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Gobbleygook Edit Warring notice board is Thataway. I am not a big fan of viriditas, however I believe you should withdraw this complaint as I believe it will probably Boomerang back on you. VViking_TalkEdits 11:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fixing the bad sitenotice for VisualEditor

Not an ANI matter, bring it up on VPT. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:32, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
When doing a live beta, letting people back out is crucial to avoiding discontent, as well as providing a place to post bugs. Neither of these have been done. As such, I would suggest the following sitenotice be added immediately. Wikipedia is happy to announce the live Beta of VisualEditor, a tool that offers a way to edit pages without needing to learn wikimarkup. This has been automatically activated on all accounts. If you need to edit without VisualEditor, you can choose "Edit source" instead of "Edit". For bug reporting, go to Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback. To opt out of VisualEditor, simply go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets, scroll down to "Editing", tick the box labelled "Remove VisualEditor from the user interface", then scroll to the bottom and click "Save". You can reactivate it at any time by unticking the box. I've used a little colour to make sure people see it. I suggest Sitenotice, as whatever hack is being used for the uninformative message literally takes 3 seconds before it appears on the otherwise completely-loaded page. This provides the necessary information, explains what's happening, and tells people where to report bugs, and how to opt out - things that should have been done 15 hours ago. Thank you. (Crossposted to WT:Sitenotice) Adam Cuerden (talk) 14:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Looks good to me. I've already disabled VisualEditor, as it is only half functional, and I prefer editing manually/properly anyway. I also object to the primary "Edit" button taking you to the VisualEditor, given the fact it's only half-finished - it should say "Edit with VisualEditor", and the "Edit source" button should still be the primary edit button, for the short term at least. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:44, 2 July 2013 (UTC) comment; you realise that this site notice would display to all logged-in and anonymous users (who don't have the VisualEditor), with absolutely no way to disable it, yes? This is not a workable solution. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC) From the top of MediaWiki talk:Sitenotice: Wikipedia has five kinds of top of page messages that can be used to convey information or announcements to readers and editors. The "Sitenotice", found at MediaWiki:Sitenotice, is displayed at the top of all pages for all logged-in users, and for anonymous users if MediaWiki:Anonnotice is empty; this latter message can be used to display information only to readers, not editors. Alternatively, by 'blanking' the anonnotice and replacing it with , the sitenotice can be used as a "logged-in-notice" to display information only to editors. But, again, with absolutely no way to disable or hide the message. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Site notices are dismissable. It's the current hack-y notice that you're using for VisualEditor that isn't dismissable. That's why sitenotice id has to be incremented when a new sitenotice goes up. Adam Cuerden (talk) 14:56, 2 July 2013 (UTC) They are? Huh. And: we're not using a hacky notice, we're using CentralNotice - if it's not dismissing for you, we have a problem and that's a distinct bug report I'm happy to happen. I this move would be highly damaging, and to be blunt while I'm not in a position to speak for the Foundation I strongly suspect that making such a prominent notice will not be appreciated. If you want to talk through interim steps to see if it helps - listing the gadget in the FAQ, for example, comes to mind - I'm happy to do so, but I'd ask that we wait for a couple of hours at least until more people have woken up (particularly those in the office). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Are you seriously trying to claim that explaining where to report bugs and how to opt out of a beta are bad things, but having an uninformative, undismissable message isn't? Adam Cuerden (talk) 15:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC) I'm saying that going "there's new stuff, here's how to opt out of it" rather than "there's new stuff" is likely to lead a lot of people instinctively reacting by disabling it. I know full well that a lot of people instinctively react to new software or changes (heck, I'm still on monobook. I definitely know that). What I think we want to avoid here is crossing too far to the other side - at the moment, people struggle to find out how to turn it off if they dislike it. But I don't want us to be in a situation where we've enabled people to, en-mass, opt-out without giving it a look or testing it solely because it's new. The software eventually being workable depends on the idea that many eyeballs make bugs shallow. Without some attention, this will be a lot suckier for a lot longer than it can be. I want to keep people informed, and I'm happy to discuss how we can go about increasing the prominence of the escape route, as it were. But we have to strike a balance between damaging the software greatly and damaging the community greatly. I think this solution falls too far on one side. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 15:06, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Comment - I'm in favor of Adam's suggested notice. The VisualEditor rollout was not done correctly. Are there any UX people employed by WMF and are they familiar with the concept of banner blindness? You can stick notices up there all day that features are going to be rolled out but generally users ignore banners. The banners that appear on this site are usually asking for money, or inviting people to events or straw polls that have extremely limited appeal to casual editors. Hence, they are conditioned to ignore them. I personally use this site dozens of times per day and the VisualEditor rollout caught me completely by surprise. I was then irked that it was not immediately apparent how to turn it off, and the preference is buried in the "Gadgets" tab which is the opposite of intuitive. Get the banner up there so people can turn this off. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 15:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC) If banner blindness is the reason that people are unaware this is going on, I'm not sure a new banner will help. :/ I agree with Adam that this information needs more prominence, but note that it is now the first thing people see who follow the link in the existing banner. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 15:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Is it the best banner, no, but the proposed one is useless for IP editors. How VE caught you off guard is your own issue; its been everywhere I've been and I have seen a lot of discussion for it. Its sort of saying Wikipedia's disclaimers on editing, which appear on every page you edit, are non-existent or not noticeable. Some personal responsibility has to exist, and if you have been on Wikipedia in the last month, you should be well aware of VE. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Count me among the dumb ones, then. Drmies (talk) 19:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC) I don't know about you, but that wraps strangely on my monitor. Lots of white space with line 2 only 25% of the size of line 1, and line 4 has only 3 words. Also, I don't think it is necessary to put the opt-out instructions in the site notice itself. Having a link to such instructions, i.e. one click away, should also work fine. Perhaps something like: Wikipedia is happy to announce the live Beta of VisualEditor, a tool that offers a way to edit pages without needing to learn wikimarkup. This has been automatically activated on all accounts. If you need to edit without VisualEditor, you can choose "Edit source" instead of "Edit". For bug reporting, go to Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback. To opt out of VisualEditor, simply follow the directions at SOME LINK PAGE. Dragons flight (talk) 15:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Just Curious - why is this in ANI?  A m i t  ❤  17:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Because we're trying to protect the encyclopedia from further damage while this thing is still unusably bad? The notice that now appears at teh top of the info page is a great help, thanks. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Just positing out loud, but I seem to remember that the last couple (in my mind) UX changes (Notifications, Watchlist changes) have been met with "Fire and Pitchforks mobs. While it's not appropriate for here, I would like the UX team to come up with a way of communicating change prior to implementing it as the current user acceptance is not working for a portion of the community. Hasteur (talk) 20:17, 2 July 2013 (UTC) There were big "VisualEditor is coming!" threads at just about every project page I watchlist, several weeks ago I think? Presumably the people who are vehemently opposed to major UI changes decided to vote against its coming by not raising their concerns... *shrug* --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:34, 2 July 2013 (UTC) How patronising. I was caught off guard because i don't watchlist lots of project pages, and those i do don't get visits from me all the time. Maybe they didn't "decide to vote" but weren't aware.... That being said, when i tried to edit this morning and the edit button went to some bizarre unrecognisable place, it didn't take me long to cancel, hunt around, and learn how to edit the way i understand already. A site notice is likely a good idea. A working Visual Editor is a better one. An opt-out of something that doesn't work (yet) is the best. Cheers, LindsayHello 22:11, 2 July 2013 (UTC) UI changes often meet resistance; it's hardly specific to enwiki. How do people deal with this problem in the rest of the world? bobrayner (talk) 23:11, 2 July 2013 (UTC) I'm no expert, but from what I've read, they deal with change by making lots of announcements in advance, offering an early opt-in to the curious (if possible), an opt-out in early days to the change-averse (if possible), and then pretty much waiting until everyone's had a chance to get used to it, which normally takes somewhere between a few days and a few weeks. Change—even a tiny change—is painful for power users. Complaints of the "I hate it" variety from power users in the early days really translate as "it's different" instead of "it's wrong". Someone mentioned Notifications above; it's an instructive case study. People were very upset when it appeared, and now everyone basically likes it overall. We editors have gone from "kill the devs!" to requests for small changes, like diffs (supposed to be working now!), plain-text email, and for people mentioned in Signpost articles not to get hundreds of notifications that amount to "guess who else subscribes to the Signpost!" VisualEditor is a bigger change and a more complex product, but I think you will find the same general pattern happening with it (although, due to size, it will probably take longer). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC) I had to disable it because it didn't work when I used it. Viriditas (talk) 23:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC) It seems impossible to disable now. I had checked the option earlier, but the VE just comes back! Someone not using his real name (talk) 00:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC) I'm editing logged out until this crap is fixed. It seems the only way to get rid of it right now. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 00:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC) I find it interesting that this is listed under gadgets. This is at least the second gadget being on by default that has raised major concerns in the past week or two. The other being HotCat. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:27, 4 July 2013 (UTC) "Happy to announce" is not NPOV Personally, I would change this to read . I seriously doubt that I will get consensus to do that, but please don't speak in the voice of English Wikipedia and say that we are "happy to announce" this change.—Kww(talk) 21:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC) Moral Support. I agree with the general sentiment, although that notice is obviously unacceptable. Tazerdadog (talk) 04:39, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Prolongued incivility and possible indef. block evasion concerns

UrbanNerd (talk · contribs) has been persistently incivil to a number of editors (myself included) over an extended period of time. Generally, he is ignored, though, from time to time, he receives a message reminding him of WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:AGF, and the like, and he has been blocked numerous times for personal attacks already. Still, the ignorance seemingly enables him to continue and the warnings/reminders/bloks are simply dismissed.

Some examples:

• 22:44, 2 July 2013: "Moxy, may I remind you this is not the place to gossip with the ladies... thanks. Once again Miesianiacal believes that BRD doesn't apply to him and he can add his usual british trash to every article and when reverted just reinstates and starts an edit war. I have never seen an editor with such a enormous bias and such disregard for BRD still editing here."
• 05:06, 2 July 2013: "Please follow BRD when your nonsense edits get reverted."
• 05:05, 2 July 2013: "Miesianiacals bias additions -- You added material which was filled with british trash as usual..."
• 21:34, 30 May 2013: "Even more Monarchist crap -- i've removed yet more monarchist rhetoric by everyones favorite monarchist editor..."
• 00:28, 29 May 2013: "Are you high on meth? Seriously?"
• 03:59, 22 May 2013: "[N]o one here is an 'idiot' besides yourself..."
• 16:30, 21 April 2013: "I can assure you pal that I have lived in Ottawa for MANY years... more than your 26 years on this earth. I also have studied the city formally for years. So I can assure you I do in fact know this city better than most, including you. So your opinion of me is irrelevant and i could really care less. Your out of date 'inner-greenbelt' mentality at looking at the city as if it was 1988 and you were 65 years old is laughable."
• 19:53, 2 March 2013: "Wow, I'm going to try and stay civil here, but your comments/actions are so far beyond comprehension i don't know where to even start. You can't be that simple, you have to be putting on an act."
• 18:08, 24 January 2013: "remove excessive canadian bias by known bias monarchist editor, and general pain in the a**."
• 03:01, 19 December 2012: "We both know that no one at the NBA article objects to your little pansy team count. No quit being a ass clown as usual. You're a terrible editor."
• 02:57, 7 November 2012: "Wow, your lack of intelligent contributions is breath taking... Stop making up fake consensuses and edit warring."
• 14:41, 25 October 2012: "it was changed to DMY yesterday moron..."
• 03:30, 25 October 2012: "Probably added by a useless Ozzy like yourself. Now go back to being irrelevant."
• 02:23, 16 October 2012: "Hey buddy, has your acne medication gone to your pee brain? F*ck right off with your attitude. At the time the news story came out it read that he resigned affective immediately. It has since been updated. It's easy for someone like you that sits at his computer all day dreaming of having any resemblance of a social life or even a single friend to get updates and then criticize others/act tough. You're not tough, you're an jag off. Please don't be so abrasive in the future. Thank you."

On a related but tangential matter, there's much to suggest UrbanNerd is the new user name of the indfinitely blocked Po' buster (talk · contribs) (that being the subsequent user name of the indefinitely blocked PhilthyBear (talk · contribs)): the general attitude illustrated above, plus the content and target of some of the attacks, as well as many similarities in patterns of editing (southern Ontario and Canadian urban-related matters, populations/demographics, lists of largest buildings, Ottawa, the National Capital Region, Toronto, Fanshawe College, Gangs in Canada, removing French language material, etc.), the very short time between when Po' buster was blocked and UrbanNerd began editing, and more.

Since UrbanNerd has been editing under that name now for over three years, I am not sure whether or not a sockpuppet investigation or checkuser is of any value anymore. Perhaps others who know better can advise on that.

I do believe, though, that, for however long UrbanNerd continues to edit here, some serious civility restrictions need to be placed upon him by the community. Do we have a precedent to follow? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• The block log, together with this edit summary from today, suggest to me an editor that simply can't edit collegially. I'd be interested in what others think. Black Kite (talk) 20:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

  AGFing that edit summary, that could simply mean he is removing a "strange" message. However, the edit to his userpage that caused it to be speedy deleted as an attack page yesterday is quite illuminating. Resolute 21:55, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I have made a number of comments in recent discussions about the lax attitude the Wikipedia community seems to have about chronic incivility. I have pointed out that this has a negative effect on productive editors and can eventually cause people to give up on the project. This seems to be another good illustration of the ongoing problem. (This user had a nice attack page deleted just yesterday.) Taroaldo ✉ 20:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I am surprised, and disappointed, that UrbanNerd has gone on for so long in this fashion. (Interestingly, UrbanNerd's talkpage has just been sanitized since this ANI was posted.) The examples given are not just disruptive, they are abusive. It is time to put the burden on UrbanNerd to overcome this sad legacy. I recommend an WP:INDEF, and then let UrbanNerd plead a case for unblocking. – S. Rich (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• It's a wonder he's not been indef'd already for a slew of policy violations. I'd support S. Rich's proposal of an indef. Dusti^*poke* 21:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Btw - let's add this to the mix. Dusti^*poke* 21:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• The suggestion that the UrbanNerd account is a sock is interesting. I don't have knowledge of the previous user names, and I think 3 years is well beyond the stale range for a CU anyway, so that could only be judged on behavioural evidence. That, however, may not really be required. UrbanNerd is an alright content editor, but he is singularly incapable of interacting with people. Any edit he dislikes, or any of his edits that get challenged are inevitably responded to with a barrage of insults. The examples Miesianiacal notes above are really just a small sample set. Even if he evades one now, an indef block is inevitable unless UrbanNerd learns to interact with others. Resolute 21:55, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• For what it's worth I also believe that this user does more harm than good. I am struck by their constant assumption of bad faith/stupidity on the part of other users (ie. [87], [88] among many others. Follow almost any discussion they're in, and you'll see much the same) and a general failure to discuss changes substantively (ie. [89]). The pattern is repeated and constant. I tried to engage the user as kindly as I could, but was called "queer" and my message was deleted ([90]). I think it's best to spare other editors the headache and time lost arguing constantly with someone who simply won't engage in a proper substantive debate.Peregrine981 (talk) 22:29, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• UrbanNerd should of course be given a chance to respond, but there is compelling evidence here of a long-standing problem that requires intervention. Gamaliel (talk) 22:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indef block. Off-the-charts incivility including very childish name-calling, over a period long enough that they can't claim they just had a bad day... or week... or month. Wikipedia isn't the schoolyard. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indef block given the block history and continuing disruptive beahviour. Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite block. Multiple persistant and continuing behavioral problems make this user a net negative to the project. Inability to collaborate with others is more than amply demonstrated. This block is long overdue. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

If I may add another example:

• 07:24, 1 March 2013: "reverting to 21:20, 16 February 2013‎ revision by User:Ccyyrree per WP:BRD and WP:STATUSQUO"
• 13:02, 1 March 2013: "Undid revision 541454110 by 117Avenue (talk) Revert back to longstanding as per WP:BRD"
• 02:12, 2 March 2013: "To what long standing version are you talking about"?
• 19:53, 2 March 2013: "your comments/actions are so far beyond comprehension i don't know where to even start. You can't be that simple, you have to be putting on an act."

117Avenue (talk) 06:06, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support I could add many more diffs to examples that are similar to the ones above but at this point I think its pretty clear that he needs an indef block as the many blocks he has received so far haven't helped him see the issue. -DJSasso (talk) 14:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Involved editor - Simply put this user is a determent to the project (200 examples here if requested).Moxy (talk) 16:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support - I've thought there was something fishy here for a while but couldn't put my finger on it and didn't have time to cite him for his civility issues. I was however heavily involved in the other two users named (Po'Buster and PhilthyBear) and now that someone else mentions it yes, I completely agree there. Looking back through UrbanNerd's edits, even recently, there are massive violations of WP:OWN, good faith and just basic civility not to mention edit warring but using terminology to seeming get out of it by covering them as procedural or vandalism etc. Continually claiming BRD (which incidentally isn't a policy, it's an essay) isn't a way to get out of blatant edit warring. I'm surprised no one has jumped on this sooner. Really surprised. I'd like more admins eyes on this one before any action is taken. Canterbury Tail talk 17:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• 'Support. I was unaware of how bad it was until reading all these comments. This is why people leave Wikipedia. 117Avenue (talk) 02:47, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Eyes Needed

Looks like the kids on summer vacation are bored and causing problems. Already seen 3 brand new accounts pop-up on my watchlist and all vandalism-only accounts. Eyes are going to be needed at WP:AIV, the Oversight account (or wherever Oversight requests go) and here on ANI. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 18:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

37.117.127.158 is doing disruptive editing again.

The user with this IP address 37.117.127.158 is at it again. He has committed disruptive editing on film infoboxes on The Lone Ranger (2013 film), as you can see it here and here in Transformers (film series).

The user with this IP address has done this before and was discussed and archived here. This user was warned by Dennis Brown on his talk page and was quiet for a few days until he came back to do his disruptive film editing on the film infoboxes. BattleshipMan (talk) 22:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I think a block may be required to stop the disruption, but want more input. I think my request for him to "stop" on his talk page could not have possibly been more obvious. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • You forgot to notify him so I did it myself. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:50, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
    • One of the negatives of the new, "quieter" message notification system is it's harder to assume anyone's definitely seen their warnings. I guess a short block is the way to go, proceeding to a longer one if they come back and keep it up. Infobox formatting is pretty minor disruption though, and it's possible they genuinely think it looks better that way. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:52, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Do you think he'll ever stop his disruptive editing on film infoboxes after we blocked him for a short time. BattleshipMan (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Blocked 72 hours. He can come back and continues to edit and refuses to engage about this problem. The only time he has used his talk page was to say that he didn't have time to talk. Now he has three days. I suggest talking with him there, politely and trying to help him understand why his actions are so disruptive. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I send him a message on his talk page here about the reason he's been blocked for 72 hours. BattleshipMan (talk) 07:30, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Jc37 and edit-warring

Please can some uninvolved admins cast their eyes on the rather complex case listed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Jc37_reported_by_User:BrownHairedGirl_.28Result:_.29?

I thought that WP:AN3 was the best place to report this issue, tho it's not a perfect fit. If another forum would be more suitable, I would welcome suggestions. But whatever the venue, it would be good to have assistance in resolving this. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

There is an RFC at WikiProject Ireland, where I think it is more suitable to take this rather than pursuing the conduct issues.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I hope that the RFC will produce a consensus outcome. But RFCs remain open for a long time, and in the meantime Jc37 continues to edit-war, citing a CFD close which didn't even mention his desired change ( a change which got no support at CFD, or in the RFC). Is there any way of persuading him to just accept the the status quo ante pending the RFC outcome? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be any harm in allowing the discussion to resolve the matter. Should consensus stay where it appears to be then Jc37's edit will be undone. As long as he accepts what the RfC decides there is no disruption to prevent.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:14, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

First off, thank you TDA for the AGF.

BHG has left out a few things, such as I was the closer of the discussion, then I implemented the close and a few others have tried to revert it based upon their personal declared POV/biases. That's textbook disruption. But rather than be a rouge admin, and implement some variation of WP:RBI for disruption (as all too many admins all too often do), I chose instead to try to engage with them, and suggested that the subpage one editor wrote up as a proposed synthesis of several discussions be now proposed as a guideline. If this has actual consensus, then an rfc should be fairly simple SOP. Discussion, regardless of outcome, is a good thing.

But impatience apparently set in, and despite the fact the "there is no deadline", they've continued to revert the close.

Proof? read User talk:Fayenatic london#Ireland_categories, my talk page, User_talk:BrownHairedGirl#Note, and of course the edit history of the category in question.

Closers simply should not be attacked like this. If they're doing this to me, someone who even they have professed to have liked at some point, how then are they treating other closers?

Oh and, as I asked for the discussion, I'll obviously respect it. Indeed, my intention has been to add a note to the cfd close after the rfc closes, noting the result of the rfc. (Though I would hope that the rfc was advertised at least at one or more of the WP:VPs.)

All this aside, I'm very disappointed in the editors with whom I have worked with, discussed with, etc., over the last several years. I have little doubt that they now have few kind things to say about me (How dare I implement a close contrary to their interpretation of my close!), but I guess c'est la vie. - jc37 09:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I am saddened by the disingenuousness of that reply. My post above links to the AN3 report, and asks others to cast an eye over it. That report says: "In a nutshell, this is a strange case of a closing admin edit-warring to uphold a decision which he made subsequent to a CFD closure, and which which was neither mentioned in the closure nor supported by any participant in the CFD discussion. In the subsequent discussions, no other editor has supported the closer's actions."

Yet Jc37 claims I omitted this fact.

Why? What's the point of misrepresenting me so blatantly? An admin should know better than to do that.

If Jc37 had intended the close to mean "remove Northern Ireland from Ireland", then that point should have been included stated in the CFD closing statement. If it had been in the closing statement, this could have been sorted long ago at DRV, because there is nothing in the discussion to support that perverse outcome. (The long-standing status quo has been that Category:Ireland contains subcats Category:Republic of Ireland and Category:Northern Ireland, and similarly Foo in Ireland has subcats Foo in NI and Foo in RoI).

Instead we are in limbo, with a closing statement which doesn't say that "Northern Ireland should not be a subcat of Ireland", so there is nothing to take to DRV. If Jc37 intends his closing statement to say that, then please amend the closing statement to make that clear, and we can take it to DRV.

Instead, we are in a weird limbo land. Nobody else reads Jc37's closing statement the way he reads it, and nobody supports the substance of his interpretation. Despite this, he has been edit-warring. Every closer has made some closes that don't go quite right, but when you are in a hole, stop digging.

If Jc37 believes that his closing statement justifies his subsequent actions, then the simple solution is to list it himself at DRV.

It's sad too that Jc37 claims he is being "attacked". An admin should be accountable for their actions, and the discussions at User talk:Jc37#Category:People_by_city_or_town_in_Northern_Ireland and User talk:Fayenatic_london#Ireland_categories show several editors politely asking Jc37 to reconsider. At no point in those discussions does Jc37 make any attempt to explain why he interpreted the CFD discussion as providing support for the actions he took. Why is he surprised that this has escalated after he dug in, when there were several routes he could have taken to resolve this quickly?

What we have instead is a CFD closer edit-warring to uphold a point not mentioned in his close, and insisting that his edit must stay pending an RFC. Nobody has objected to the opening of the RFC ... all we are asking is that the status quo ante be restored pending the outcome of the RFC.

The AN3 report has been closed as I think it's stale for now, but a block is in order if he reverts again. Another editor has restored the status quo ante, and I hope that Jc37 will leave it at that rather than risk a block.

If he will stop edit-warring, we are all done here. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. I think everyone involved in the RFC should just wait for it to be closed before worrying about restoring the categories to their preferred set-up. I don't understand what the hurry is and the way the RFC is going it should produce a result everyone can be happy about. I know—users are attempting to restore the status quo ante—but really, if all users were just patient for the RFC to close, there would be no problems at all. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 00:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

  The default duration of an RfC is 30 days. The RFC was opened on 28 June, which is 13 days after the CFD was closed.
  What is the procedural or substantive purpose of allowing Jc37's personal preference to stand for 43 days, when it is unsupported by any other editor, unmentioned in his closing statement, and not based on the CFD discussion? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

  No. 1—Avoidance of the need for this discussion entirely. #2—No edit wars. #3—Respect for the process. #4—Some users could add to their patience and tolerance (no. 4 is just a side benefit). Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:11, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

  • The point about the RfC is that it should never have been opened in the first place. In the long history of WP:WikiProject Ireland the question has never been raised whether "Foo in Northern Ireland" should be a sub-cat of "Foo in Ireland". It has always been accepted, by editors of every political persuasion, that it is. This RfC was opened by Fayenatic London only because Jc37 would not budge unless such a discussion was opened. You can see by the responses to it that WP:IE participants are bewildered by it. We all believe we have a good guideline which should be adhered to, and can't see why we should be obliged to re-affirm it. You might as well open an RfC on whether the world is round, and then say everyone involved in the RFC should just wait thirty days for it to be closed before worrying about fixing things. The RfC should be closed per WP:SNOW, and people should be allowed to get back to things that actually matter. Scolaire (talk) 12:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Scolaire is right that the status quo was not a matter of controversy until Jc37 took it upon himself to start his edit war. There are a lot POVs in relation to Ireland, but this is not something which has ever been controversial.
      Sadly, Jc37 has now chosen to claim that this is all a matter of several editors who have a a clear bias regarding uk and ireland topics. This is nonsense; nobody of any POV agrees with Jc37's view. And it's a rather nasty attempt to smear those who have been trying politely for weeks to dissuade him from his little edit-war. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Just everyone be patient. It's not that hard. It takes two or more to edit war. The self-righteous attitudes being expressed in this section are borderline sickening to me. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
        • Jc37 also has the option of being patient, instead of throwing around accusations of bullying. This is not about a content dispute, it is about user behaviour. Being a closer does not entitle someone to make the kind of personal attacks that would get an "ordinary" user blocked. "Self-righteous" and "borderline sickening" are not particularly good examples of civility, either. Scolaire (talk) 07:37, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
          • I said "everyone" needs to be patient—why did you assume I was excluding jc37? I also said nothing re: this being a content dispute. In fact, all my comments in this thread have focused on recommending particular user behaviour—patience. (I personally don't care one way or the other on the content issue.) I confirm that I have seen a lot of self-righteous comments on this thread, and it has risen to a level that can make one do a double take or be colloquially "sick"—that is actually a relatively a civil way of putting it. Had I been uncivil, I would have said I see some particular users acting like dicks. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 10:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Alleged hounding by Badmintonhist

User:Badmintonhist's behavior, largely but not exclusively in recent days, indicates that thwarting my editing constitutes a substantial part of his participation on Wikipedia. He has followed me to article after article (here is a warning I left him earlier today about it, which did not stop him from continuing). In this edit to a talk page, he states that he is unwilling to accept any version of an article that I propose. He has lately decided that my disagreement with him must mean I have Asperger's. I would like to request administrator intervention (whether a sanction or a friendly push) in order to get Badmintonhist to stop harassing me through hounding and comments. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps she can't help herself but Roscelese habitually makes snarky, insulting comments, in edit summaries and the talk pages, about pretty much everyone who disagrees with her, particularly if the subject is a political hot button issue. It would behoove a fair minded administrator to follow this pattern which will reveal one of the most consistently rude editors in the Wikipedia enterprise. Everyone gets testy at times. In the case of Roscelese, however, insulting what she perceives as the political opposition is simply her standard modus operandi. 02:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)Badmintonhist (talk) 02:18, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This has every appearance of WP:HOUNDING. I note that Badmintonhist says nothing in defense of the purported hounding or stalking activities. Binksternet (talk) 02:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The editor interaction chart is here. Most of the interaction is Roscelese editing an article first, then Badmintonhist coming in afterward. Binksternet (talk) 02:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, Badmintonhist, if you're going to make claims of an editor making insulting comments or that she has a pattern of this behavior in regard to political opposition, I'd suggest posting some evidence. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 02:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC):

A fine idea. Since I don't generally find myself if this sort of forum I'm rather naive about them. For starters let's say that her most recent exchange with me: "Do you or do you not know what a press release is?" followed by "welp" (edit summary) "So that's a 'no'. Good to know." is quite typical. She generally likes to claim that folks who disagree with her are incompetent. Give me a little time and I'll find plenty of examples. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC)PS As for the supposed hounding we are attracted to the same kinds of issues and I often find her editing contentious and partisan. By the way, I've been somewhat successful in amending articles that Roscelese and also Binksternet (who has weighed in here on her side) have tried to steer in a different direction, which may help to explain things a bit. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC) PS: The articles on Pro-life feminism and Maafa 21 are examples.

• Far more concerning is this edit summary; an editor who thinks that edit-warring is OK if your fourth revert is 24 hours and 1 minute past the first one is someone who hasn't read WP:EW, which states "Any appearance of gaming the system by reverting a fourth time just outside the 24-hour slot is likely to be treated as a 3RR violation". I almost always block editors I find gaming the system like that, so I would strongly suggest that you don't. Black Kite (talk) 13:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Not only that, but the three edits from today at this article suggest that a reading of WP:BRD might not go amiss either. The IP does not need consensus to revert Badminstonhist's edit, and BH should not have immediately re-reverted. The more I look at this, the more problematic it appears to be. Black Kite (talk) 13:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• But these reverts mentioned above by this IP edit's and its summaries bring doubt too(these are the only two edits done by this IP). This might be just an involved editor logged out to make a point.  A m i t  ❤  17:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I assure you, it's not me. I would not have been violating 1RR in order to revert, so had I desired to do so, I would have done so under my own account. Whether it's someone else, I don't know. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I went back about 15 months ago figuring that this was around the time I first had significant interaction with Roscelese [91]. Instead I found a series of what are supposed to be "edit summaries" directed at her fellow editor Collect, who, judging by his numerous barnstars, at least, seems to be a respected contributor. Here's some examples:

• enough trolling
• ahaha so much fail, Collect
• blah blah blah
• I'm seeing some real WP:COMPETENCE issues here
• Supporting what you write with sources? That's crazy!
• How many times will I have to repeat myself
• Oh yeah, I'd forgot you're one of those people who wave the BLP flag to cover up POV-pushing
• More nonsense from edit warrior

Those are just her "edit summaries." I didn't look too closely at the actual "dialogue" which took place at the Talk page for Pro-life feminism but I did catch this one:

Where the hell do you get the idea that you can make these rubbish claims about the monolith of Irish women?

Around this same time she told another editor "your edits are ridiculous" and chided someone else on his/her presumed bigotry. I'm sure I'll have more examples of the Rosclese style later. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:31, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This is all very interesting (and I'm sure it will be even more interesting to read that discussion), but none of it explains or justifies your hounding, stated intention to prevent me from editing, or "diagnoses." Does this mean that you recognize that you were wrong and are planning to change your behavior? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:54, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This really doesn't have anything to do with what appears to be, at first glance, a pretty clear cut case of hounding. If Collect has an issue with Roscelese, he can bring it up himself, and Collect is no stranger to commenting on noticeboards and such. Can you address the issue of what appears to be a case of you following around another editor to unrelated articles and not bring up irrelevant comments that are over a year old. Gamaliel (talk) 17:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

[objectionable comments removed] Regarding my supposed hounding, as I have said, we tend to be on different sides of topics we are both interested in. As for the article on Care Net I had already effectively relented on the point about CommonwelthCitizen's version rather than Roscelese's version being our starting point, by editing from Roscelese's version. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Here's an idea. Instead of self-righteously declaring yourself superior based on someone else's alleged wrongdoings and your own amateur psychoanalysis, you ditch this sort of behavior entirely, then you report it when someone else engages in it. The issue here is your uncivil behavior, which you're beginning to escalate yet again. I've talked to you about this before, and you are well aware this is a problem. I suggest you both avoid each other for a few days before trouts and blocks result from this discussion. You've already crossed the line with your comments above, please try to control yourself. Gamaliel (talk) 18:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm utterly puzzled by what you found objectionable about my previous comment. Surely not the term "aspies" which people with Asperger's syndrome themselves use, and even if you did object to that, which you shouldn't, what was objectionable about myfirst sentence? I find this all quite curious. The foulest of four letter words can pass muster here but a comment that someone finds vaguely insensitive gets canned. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:58, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

You should not be commenting in such a personal matter about other editors, especially ones you are in a conflict with. I don't understand why that would be such a curious concept. Gamaliel (talk) 19:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I think User:Badmintonhist is being a hypocrite when he criticizes Roscelese: "insulting what she perceives as the political opposition is simply her standard modus operandi" because this is exactly how I see Badmint's behavioral pattern on talkpages. He seems to prefer taking jabs at other editors rather than discuss content issues, and takes disagreement personally. He has also encouraged battleground behavior in other editors, e.g. at the SPLC and Media Matters articles, so I'm not surprised to see his conduct brought here for further scrutiny. El duderino ^(abides) 03:56, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Commenting to make sure this doesn't get archived without a resolution. That will only allow it to happen again. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't have much experience in the area of topic bans but perhaps we can craft some sort of prohibition on the types of comments they can make towards one another and make it enforceable with immediate blocking. It appears that Badmintonhist feels that either Roscelese's alleged behavior gives him license to violate rules of civility, or that his comments are not uncivil at all. This seems to me to be a contradictory stance that smacks of wiki lawyering, but I will agf and assume it is genuine. So if this is the case it seems the solution is to prohibit such comments altogether, from either party. Gamaliel (talk) 14:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm less concerned about the comments themselves (water off a duck's back, as they say) than about Badmintonhist's intention, evident in comments and in hounding, to prevent me from editing. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:36, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Threat of violence on my talk page

Due to a recent revert on Mongolian language that I made,

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mongolian_language&diff=562761021&oldid=562108558
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mongolian_language&diff=562761598&oldid=562761021
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mongolian_language&diff=562765395&oldid=562761598

Orgio89 (talk) has made the following edit on my talk page:

Chi yahlaaraa Mongol helnii huudsiig hyatad hanzaar bohirlood dairaad baigaa yum be! Chi germand torj osson hari evrop setgelgeetei novsh baina. Mongold baigaa irged Mongol helniihee huudsiig oorsdoo zasaad medeed hiij baina Mongoliig hel soyld bitgii gai bolood baigaarai. Bolohgui bol evropt baigaa Mongolchuudaar chamtai tootsoo bodoj chadna shuu!!!

The text reads in translation:

'How can you / dare you pollute the page on the Mongolian language with Chinese characters? You are a German-born, foreign-thinking piece of garbage. The Mongolian citizens take responsibility for the page on their Mongolian language themselves. Stop being an obstacle / pain in the ass to Mongolian culture. If you don’t, I can contact Mongolians in Europe and make you pay!'

The crucial last sentence can be glossed as follows:

“Bolo-h=gui bol evrop-t bai-gaa Mongol-chuud-aar cham-tai tootsoo bodo-j chad-na shuu!“ (become-future.participle=negation if Europe-dative be-imperfective.participle Mongolian-plural-instrumental.case(“by”) you-comitative(“with) bill think/calculate-converb can-future/generic illocutionary_particle(“I tell you”))

While I don't think that this threat is concrete or that this user could identify me, this is the first threat of violence that I have experienced on Wikipedia. As I am fairly sure that Orgio89 wouldn't be impressed by any form of polite answer (in contrast maybe to Ancientsteppe where a similar angry argument without threat started on my talk page, but became somewhat more peaceful in the course), maybe some kind of administrative intervention / block would be appropriate.

As a sidenote: the issue at hand (about which both Orgio89 and Ancientsteppe are unhappy) is

• the classification of Mongolian (=Mongolian, Buriat, Oirat instead of those three being separate languages, a very reasonable position held by most Mongolian scholars, while English Wikipedia currently follows the equally acceptable stance held in most of Europe and Russia), all other Mongolic languages being spoken by racially different people who might be short of being Mongolians (a position unrelated to linguistics)
• all things Chinese must be unrelated to Mongolian. The current version of the loanword section is a bit too Chinese-heavy, but editing here must be done in a reasonable way so as to give prominence to different semantic fields. The inclusion of Chinese characters here has its pro-s and con-s. The Secret history, in contrast, happens to be transmitted only in Chinese transcription, so it must be included as it is.

(As I don't really intend to discuss the issue, but rather Orgio89's aggressive behavior, I have not notified Ancientsteppe about this discussion.)

Best, G Purevdorj (talk) 23:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

"""1.""" Sorry on my some little too far type of rant on your talk page!

"""2.""" Purevdorj G. does not have official education about the subject on Mongolian language that he is editing on Wikipedia, which he states on his front page that he has non Mongolian motherlanguage and ways he edited the disputed wiki page. Wikipedia information supposed to be created as close as possibly scientifically accurate but this english version of the page is the most vandalised page version compare to other language versions. Here is original Mongol version and German version and Russian version of the page which in both Germany and Russia there are far more Mongolian language and culture researchers or their expatriates who lived in Mongolia concentrated than other countries. Which these 3 versions are interestingly in very close format than English version plus in English version there are third language scripts this time Chinese writings involved. Why in most probable accurate 3 versions there no any 3d language writings involved but in English?! """3.""" From East German era there are thousands of east German expats and educators lived and worked in Mongolia from 1950-1989 period so there are at least hundreds of Germans who has certain competitive level of Mongolian language unofficial education with obvious reasons. In this German version page I checked Purevdorjs edit contribution in history section and he has contributed only once in Nov 2008 for its 8 years of history others were all native Germans edited the page. If Purevdorj has German motherlanguage and some "confident level of Mongolian language level" why cant he integrate the German format with English version ways he editing like "supposed official Mongol linguist"?! """4.""" Here are the daily Mongolian news sites that could support my edit effort of Mongolian language page: mongolnews.mn news.mn ; and this is Mongolian government public outreach page: zasag.mn . From these websites facts you cannot find any 3d language writings like Korean or Hindi or Chinese except some English brand name terms on news site. """5.""" Based on these unruly incidents of Purevdorj any admin please please ban him or block his access to Mongolian language so contributors with realistic knowledge can edit the desputed page. Thank you. Orgio89 (talk) 02:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Plus my edit efforts of Purevdorjs vandalized Mongolian language page actually started in March 2013, it is months of ongoing effort against vandalisms made by limited knowledge contributors not a recent incident as Purevdorj originally trying to claim. Orgio89 (talk) 03:23, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

If this admins board might include anyone who has certain good linguistic knowledge base please carefully assess this vandalism situation and please stop this very sophisticated vandalism going on this Mongolian language page relative to these other formats: original Mongol version and German version and Russian version. Thank you. Orgio89 (talk) 03:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Aside from the above example, you can also track the edits made by the user in question to Aeroflot, where their addition of a video has been removed by at least three other editors (including me) after being restored by Orgio89. To honor the truth, and unlike with G Purevdorj's example, my contact with Orgio89 was not that tough. I do not speak Mongolian, but if the translation above is true, both examples show that we're having an editor that behaves not precisely in the expected collaborative way.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 01:40, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Jetstreamer your interest of taking down any one who is not obedient to your interest sounds pretty amazing! That video was clearly in the subject details of the page and was very informative addition to the page which in point of origin Russian version of the page it well passed their local mods regular monitoring. So why do you need to bring "this huge issue" who is not obedient to your personal interest to this notice board?! Orgio89 (talk) 02:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Whether or not someone has "official education" on a subject isn't relevant. Any editor can edit Wikipedia. If the edits are not helpful, they will likely be reverted. Disagreements should be discussed on an article's talk page (which appears to have been occurring in this case). The issue here at ANI is a personal attack/possible threat, nothing else. It is clear that such actions are unacceptable and are never tolerated in Wikipedia. Who made what edit in which linguistic version of the Mongolian language article is just a smokescreen which obscures the issue at hand. Taroaldo ✉ 04:02, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec)Orgio, regardless of the content matter, you cannot ever threaten other editors. You need to immediately withdraw that threat (cross it out if you know how, or simply state that you withdraw it here and on G Purevdorj's page, or you will be blocked from editing. You must discuss matters civilly, or you cannot edit here. Let's deal with that matter first, before we figure out how to recommend dispute resolution on the topic. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm, Orgio89 should be blocked, but I will give him/her a chance to apologize and withdraw the comments in the manner you specified before I block. Gamaliel (talk) 04:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

But my months of editing effort against vandalism on Mongolian language done by other contributor should not be ingored here, I provided clear facts that how the page getting vandalized relative other pages plus local information facts. I explained and asked sorry in the first place in my post how else do I need to ask sorry on his obvious vandalism effort?? Orgio89 (talk) 04:17, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Orgio89, I accept that you're now apologizing, which is good, but at the same time, you're actually making things worse. His edits are very very much not vandalism. Wikipedia has an extremely strict definition of vandalism, which you can read at WP:VANDAL; the short version is that it only means someone either spamming or trying to make Wikipedia worse, like saying, "<Person> is a stupid poo-poo head! LOLOLOL". Just because you disagree with his edits does not make them vandalism. When you disagree with someone, what you need to do is go to the article talk page and discuss the matter. If you can't agree between the two of you, then you need to get help from others via dispute resolution. Hwoever, the matter that Jetstreamer raises is also a problem--you can't just try to force your opinions onto Wikipedia. You may be right, but you've got to follow a reasonable, civil process to discuss the matter and get to the "better" version. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Qwyrxian thank you for your reply and explanations! Just in case I request that any 2-3 of you please carefully consider this Mongolian language page vandalism matter and solve the vandalisms on information accuracy relative to other valid versions please? : original Mongol version and German version and Russian version , Spanish version. Orgio89 (talk) 04:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Plus in my initial post there are clear facts supporting that how the inaccuracy vandalism is going on on that page. Admins should not ingore vandalisms! just compare with my provided 4 other language versions please. Orgio89 (talk) 04:47, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The editor has not apologised nor withdrawn the remarks on the user's talk page, and does not appear to understand how inappropriate his/her behaviour was. I would suggest proceeding with the block. Taroaldo ✉ 04:39, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I have withdrawn my post and my request on admins assessment on vandalism alert or intended innaccuracies/vandalism alert on disputed page must not be ignored by admins! Orgio89 (talk) 04:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

This Indiana University Mongolian study program is likely the biggest in English accuracy source in the west for any admins assessment process. Orgio89 (talk) 05:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Orgio89, this is now the absolute final warning to you: if you misuse the term "vandalism" once more, you will be blocked, for as long as it takes for you to understand what's wrong about it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:19, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, scrap that. Having looked a bit more into this editor's conduct and the way he's been involved in tendentious edit-warring ever since he arrived, I come to the conclusion that the time for more warnings is over. This discussion here is proof that Orgio89 is not yet prepared to learn what it means to edit in a collaborative environment, where editors are expected to respect each other's contributions and viewpoints. I'm indef-blocking, until such time as he gives a credible commitment that he is prepared change perspective. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

FPoS, I know that this is usually your style, but was it really necessary to jump to an immediate indef? Isn't it possible that the user first needed a clear statement that said "No, really, we mean it", with a time limited block, that would get him/her to come to her senses? While you and I understand "indefinitely" means "Until you show us you've changed/understood", most people read it as "Forever". I wonder if it wasn't possible that we could first give a block of a few days, and then rapidly escalate as needed. Again, I do appreciate that you have chosen to deal with the worst of the POV pushers, and I've certainly benefited at times from your willingness to make them go away, but maybe, here at least, starting off somewhere below indefinite might have given an overall better result. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

This seems reasonable in this case. This user made a serious threat of violence and doesn't seem to understand why that's a problem at all, instead complaining that we aren't focusing on his edit conflict with this user, calling this conflict 'vandalism'. Even if this block is overturned, I think it is necessary to impress upon this user the seriousness of this issue. Gamaliel (talk) 14:03, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Good block by FP, in response to the obvious threat of violence. Orgio89 has made further comments above, but it's not an adequate apology, even if it's an apology of any kind. He still thinks he was right and he's calling others' edits vandalism. EdJohnston (talk) 15:49, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Good block. As a side note, if most people read it as "Forever", then they should stop doing so. If we create a climate where it usually means "Forever", we should stop doing so. If we don't, "indefinite" will come to mean "Forever". Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:36, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

In any case, I think I told him quite clearly how it's meant and what he has to do to get it lifted. Ball's in his court now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Galician people

Galician people (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hi. There's an IP editor behaving disruptively in this page, deleting one time and again referenced info relative to Galician language in the lead section. I've already contacted him/her in his/her talk page, with no response.--Froaringus (talk) 12:14, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

In fact, he/she is using several IP addresses!!--Froaringus (talk) 12:17, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

This is why WP:RFPP was invented. I have, however, semi'd it for a period of time. The IP should start to understand that WP:OR cannot trump WP:RS (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! --Froaringus (talk) 14:42, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Mostridge removing speedy deletion tags

Mostridge (talk · contribs) created the article Big Band Blast, which was tagged for speedy deletion. He has removed the speedy deletion tag from this article 5 times, despite multiple warnings. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 16:00, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

49.176.163.95 (talk) has now removed the speedy deletion template as well. As the article has no other contributors and that IP has no other edits, I believe it is likely that 49.176.163.95 is Mostridge's logged-out IP. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 16:24, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Article deleted. User very briefly blocked (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

BLP semi?

I just discovered that Sherman Alexie has spent the last two weeks in a vandalized state (due to IPs) while two registered users touched it without noticing the vandalism.[92] The page has been viewed almost 14,000 times in the last month.[93] If this is happening on a page like Sherman Alexie, I'm concerned that the system for catching vandalism has broken down. Is there any good reason not to semi all BLPs at this point? Viriditas (talk) 10:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:VPP Sædon^talk 10:19, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Or WP:RFPP? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I have pending changes protected for a month.....Lectonar (talk) 12:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I also went to pending-changes protect the article, but Lectonar got there before me. Bwilkins, it makes no sense to refer Viriditas to WP:RFPP, as this wasn't a request for protection but a request for input on whether all BLP's should be semi-protected. I suppose WP:VPP is your man per Saedon, yes. But I'll say I'm in favour of general semi of BLP's, despite the obvious objection that that'll make it even more frustrating for the non-wiki-savvy person who tries to remove negative stuff about themselves. Bishonen | talk 13:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC).

VPP might be the place to go, but one does not have to be a prophet to see that this will never catch on; I'd be in favour of pd lvl. 1 for BLP's....but neither that nor semi will catch dedicated people who really want to do harm (imho, the worst BLP violations come from registered autoconfirmed users anyway). Lectonar (talk) 13:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:RFPP would be the right place if Viriditas was requesting protection for a single BLP but if we're talking about all BLPs then that would need to take place at WP:VPP. As an aside, I would wholly support such a proposal, if not protection then at least pending changes. Sædon^talk 20:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Let's hear it once again for IP editing... Ya wanna smack down vandalism, banning IP editing and requiring sign-in-to-edit would vaporize between 50 and 90 percent of it in an afternoon, I'm guessing. Carrite (talk) 18:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I think that's a really good policy suggestion. Was the vandalism really severe/obvious or was it more subtle (like changing dates)? (It's hard to tell from the link since it's no diff. DrPhen (talk) 22:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • And what percentage of good quality edits would that also prevent? Vegaswikian (talk) 22:21, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

An anecdotal guess, based on the edit histories that I look at — something in the range of 5 to 10%. And how many of those never would have registered if they had to? Carrite (talk) 22:27, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• These things aren't unusual. The Sherman Alexie page supposedly has 64 page watchers, but I'm sure most of those people are irregular editors, or abandoned the site years ago. Zagalejo^^^ 23:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive editing and intervention

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I have volunteered to mediate DRN regarding Morgellons. It's clearly said that any editor can mediate a DRN.

However, instead of discussing the issue, several editors are discussing myself at the venue of the DRN itself, disrupting the process and using a wrong venue for such a discussion.

It's in my opinion that the DRN process is independent and informal. I wouldn't like to be pressured by any editors or admins while I'm trying to resolve it. Thank you. InLoveNoi (talk) 15:19, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Note that prior to appearing at DRN, this user had made no edits whatsoever, [94] and has given no indication of understanding how dispute resolution works. Note also that this user is him/herself offering evidence in the DRN discussion, rather than participating as an outside mediator. There have been multiple attempts to persuade InLoveNoi that such behaviour is inappropriate and disruptive - to no avail. Prior to InLoveNoi posting here, I was prepared to assume good faith - but frankly, I am beginning to suspect that disruption was intended from the start. I would suggest that InLoveNoi be given one final warning that any further participation at DRN will be strictly as a participant in the discussion, and that any further disruption of the process will result in a block and/or a topic ban. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Registering and then jumping right over to DRN is at best a little odd. I find it hard to believe someone could be familiar enough with policies and generally with how stuff works around here to do the job at DRN usefully. Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Even if someone were familiar with the process, it would clearly be inappropriate for anyone to simultaneously 'mediate' the discussion and participate by offering up evidence. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:36, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Especially as the evidence for the clear position taken by the DRN volunteer from the outset is based on entirely inappropriate sources - something any Wikipedia editor who has done even a little content development would know, and is critical knowledge to ensure a DRN discussion is based in content policy. Zad68 15:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support (as involved editor) final warning requesting InLoveNoi to step down from volunteer position, followed by block or topic ban if they won't. Please read through InLoveNoi's participation in the DRN discussion here and also the meta-discussion here. Zad68 15:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm the most frequent volunteer at DRN and have been asked by Zad68 to become the lead DRN volunteer in the case in question. I'd like to give InLoveNoi a chance to withdraw voluntarily from the DRN mediation in this case voluntarily. If that does not happen, then a topic ban limited to just that role might be appropriate. DRN guidelines make it clear that s/he is free to participate as a general community member in any discussion which eventually starts there, but in light of his clearly partisan position in this matter the best thing would be for him to be listed as a involved editor in the dispute. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support - a final warning to InLoveNoi to cease acting as a DRN volunteer on a topic where he is obviously involved. EdJohnston (talk) 15:52, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support (as involved editor). Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I find it odd that Zad68 is picking up a volunteer to resolve the DRN. Does he hold any special privileges to do so?

I hold no partisan view, in fact I have stated that my personal view correlates with the mainstream's. And I have stated, that I'll mediate objectively. InLoveNoi (talk) 15:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

TransporterMan was actually mistaken in saying I asked him to become the lead DRN volunteer - In the talk page discussion I only asked for an experienced DRN volunteer to review the situation, and I didn't even name TransporterMan, although I highly value his DRN experience and it'd be great if he took the discussion.

In you very first edit ever to Wikipedia, taking the DRN discussion as volunteer, you give your own opinions about the cause of the condition, and the support you provide for your views you state comes from a TV show you saw on a Russian channel, as you describe it. Any editor experienced with the DRN process and Wikipedia content development would understand how your statement is inappropriate. Zad68 16:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I was more mistaken than just that: It was AndyTheGrump who "asked" me in the hatnote at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Talk:Morgellons discussion, but that was actually only an acknowledgement that I had already weighed in to try to control this problem by shutting off the premature discussion, which InLoveNoi ignored. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support Also, anyone else getting a bit of a Technoquat vibe? Sailsbystars (talk) 15:59, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The thought had crossed my mind... AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:01, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Technoquat! LOL.... oh man, I feel like I'm on Candid Camera! Zad68 16:05, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support. (as involved editor). Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 16:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support (as involved editor). Even if InLoveNoi were an established editor, and he/she did not propose a result before all the comments were in, it's clear from the (now collapsed) discussion at DRN that he/she will not be accepted by the involved parties. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Final warning - Let me offer a final warning and an explanation. InLoveNoi, disengage from DRN now. Failure to do so will be construed as intentionally disrupting the discussion and will be sanctioned accordingly (ie: I will block you). At DRN or any other discussion that requires mediation, if the parties do not have faith in the mediator, then that mediator should disengage and not push themselves on the involved parties. This is based on WP:COMMONSENSE as mediation is the act of helping different parties reach a compromise, facilitated by the mediation of a well trusted and neutral party. No new editor should be mediating at DRN, no matter how clever they are, as they lack the sufficient history to instill faith and trust from the parties. Once a mediator refuses to disengage after the parties have clearly indicated they do not trust his judgement, he has proven them right. Anyone with good judgement would have instantly disengaged once it became clear that multiple parties objected. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:20, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) So, we have an ANI (e.g., a dispute) about the DRN which involves a dispute on an article talkpage about a subject which is subject to dispute itself. What's next? An ANI about a DRN which involves a dispute on Talk:Controversy (or Talk:Dispute resolution)? In any event, InLoveNoi – with this very first appearance on WP – has not established her/himself as an experienced editor. – S. Rich (talk) 16:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Apparent strange long-term grudge by IP

This IP vandalised my user page on 19 May (only just noticed). This seems to be the result of some sort of strange long-term grudge stemming from discussions on Talk:Great Heck rail crash in March 2011. Nick Cooper (talk) 15:30, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

And you want us to block for something that happened then stopped 1.5 months ago? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:23, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

No, but I thought some sort of warning would be in order, and I didn't want to rattle their cage by doing it myself. Spiteful behaviour is spiteful behaviour, no matter how intermittent it may be, especially when it seems to be suspiciously similar to the insidious edits around the same time by IP 86.141.79.152 - an IP which, like 157.203.254.2, has edited VolkerRail and Peter Levy (presenter). Massive coincidence, or the same person? Nick Cooper (talk) 20:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The IP 157.203.254.2 is a confirmed proxy server, so it is unlikely that a warning issued now would reach the intended recipient. It geolocates to London. The other IP geolocates to Driffield, in East Yorkshire. -- Diannaa (talk) 21:39, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, there's another connection - immediately before vandalising my Talk page, 157.203.254.2 edited Eastrington railway station, which is in East Yorkshire. A pattern of rail-related edits is common to both IPs. Nick Cooper (talk) 21:59, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Please delete (accidentally?) created user pages

Don't know what Balti sahib is up to but can an admin delete all the user pages he's created [95]. I would blank them but some users like having a redlink to their user page so... --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:16, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I think they're just tagging any user who edited the Gilgit–Baltistan page. If anything, it seems like they are trying to help, although I really don't know what their rationale behind it is. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 20:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Please note that the Balti sahib UP was created by Special:Contributions/محمد_افضل. – S. Rich (talk) 20:48, 5 July 2013 (UTC) "Never mind". 16:30, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm inclined to leave it - those editors can remove the tag from their userpages or request deletion if they want to. I've left a note on the user's talk page suggesting that they avoid doing this kind of thing again. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 22:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Dynamic IP/IP-hopping vandal

Someone, most recently using 2600:1005:B028:FFD7:2129:587:1C38:6FD2 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) but who is currently blocked under 2600:1006:B12D:B804:E2F8:EABA:AB30:754E (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and has edited as 2602:304:AF53:3E99:31EC:6415:6846:32AD (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 2602:304:AF53:3E99:C1CD:C4F5:41CA:D57E (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), is inserting misinformation and reverting to old versions of articles (with deleted categories and interlanguage links). The user sometimes uses vague or threatening and abusive edit summaries. Should the IPs be blocked as they appear? Is a rangeblock possible? Pseudonymous Rex (talk) 21:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Consistent vandalism at Coup d'état

I thought I should point out that the page Coup d'état is being consistently vandalized by editors with POV issues regarding the 2013 Egyptian coup d'état. Notably, Adly Mansour is consistently being removed from the section 'Current leaders who assumed power via coups d'état'. It is multiple editors, all of whom I have contacted about the issue on their respective talk pages, which is why I haven't reported any one of them for 3RR or ongoing vandalism, and I'm not sure if the page is notable enough for semi-protection, which is why I didn't post a request for such. I've posted the issue here because I am unsure what action if any should be taken. Apologies if I should have posted this elsewhere. Samuel Peoples (talk) 17:21, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi there Samuel Peoples. It's removal of sourced content, if they wish it removed they need to initiate a talk page discussion or come up with sources that call it something other than a coup. I have protected the page for 3 days. -- Diannaa (talk) 17:44, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Samuel Peoples (talk) 17:47, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Samuel, a page doesn't have to be "notable enough" to warrant semi-protection. It depends most on the activity in the article and partly whether the problematic edits relate to WP:BLPs. See WP:PP.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:57, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Request histmerge

A disruptive move occurred at Deadmau5 discography which caused it to be moved to the incorrect title of Deadmaus discography and another user did a copy-paste move to restore the article to it's correct title. Could an administrator please correct the history of that article. Thanks in advance! PantherLeapord (talk) 22:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I just took the liberty of moving the talk page back to the correct location as due to the copy-paste move it was still at the incorrect title. PantherLeapord (talk) 22:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Malik Shabazz has performed the necessary moves. I've move-protected it for a month to prevent further disruption. FYI, Panther, please don't move talk pages to the correct titles when the articles are in the wrong place. I know this sounds counterintuitive, but it makes it more complicated for the admin who performs the delete-and-move work for the articles. Nyttend (talk) 01:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

No worries. I will remember that if this ever comes up again (Hopefully it won't!) PantherLeapord (talk) 01:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Probably won't. This is the second time I've seen this kind of thing in recent months, but I don't remember ever running across it otherwise. Nyttend (talk) 02:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

IP spamming talk pages

Could someone please look into this IP's edits and correct cases where they have spammed the same section on the same talk page. Thanks in advance! PantherLeapord (talk) 05:21, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

You've never tried to discuss it with them, nor have you provided any warnings to them, but instead came direct to ANI? Your first requirement is to deal with the editor directly. I have mass-rollbacked all the additions, and dropped at least a L2 warning (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

promotional userpage

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The userpage of Bryancalabro (talk · contribs) seems to intend mainly the promotion of his own business. --Túrelio (talk) 08:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Notified. Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Bryancalabro. Best to discuss first. Shirt "TL;DR" 58 (talk)-- 09:46, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article Head East

Hello, please forgive if I've posted this in the wrong place but I've come into a situation I'm not sure how to handle and need "fresh (and more experienced) eyes" on this matter. On 5 July 2013 an editor purporting to represent the American band Head East made substantial changes to the article. Key among them was removing the explanation of how the bands unusual name came about. The information was properly referenced -- it came from an interview of one of the bands founders -- so I restored it. I also tried to explain why to the editor, Headeastweb. However, they replied making noises about how the information is incorrect, slanderous, libelous, damaging to the band, etc.

I don't want to create a situation that would cause any legal difficulties for Wikipedia (or myself for that matter), but yet I feel that the inclusion of the information is relevant to the bands history and properly referenced. Please help with guidance and instruction on whether to remove the informaton or not. Is this a situation where it's just not worth the hassle regardless of whether I'm in the right or not? Much thanks! Sector001 (talk) 12:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I have added a clarifying word to the article, welcomed the offending editor with welcome-coi, and left them a fairly clear yet stern note on their talkpage regarding their edits to the article (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Rauzaruku

User:Rauzaruku has claimed that the Portuguese word "estado-unidense" (something like "United Statian", that is, American) has an offensive meaning in Brazil, even worser than the the one that the English word "nigger" has in the USA. Two different editors, as well as I, opposed his view. When we requested sources, he used insults to answer. He couldn't stop insulting everyone, which made him be blocked by User:Acroterion for 48h.

Since he never brought any reliable sources to back his claims I decided to revert his edit (he had removed the word "estado-unidense" from Portuguese language). His first action once the block expired was to revert me. Since I'm unwilling to enter in an edit war and even elss to discuss with him, I came here to ask for help.

Rauzaruku claimed (and this is not a joke) that: "Just going to tell you something very serious: who speaks 'Estadunidense', as a rule, want to see the U.S. atomized, covered in blood, all Americans dead, like Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. I'm really defending your country and your people."[96] It's impossible to talk with someone who accuses other editors of being terrorists.

A few other comments he made:

• "What you should realize is that these two users [who opposed Rauzaruku's views] are Brazilian leftists, trying to defend the spread this word via Wikipedia. Wiki-PT have a large influx of communists, socialists and left-lists using your structure for spreading ideological ideas ..."[97]
• "Who supports this kind of thing on Wikipedia are just political agitators who want to use Wikipedia for their personal purposes."[98]
• "So, who uses it today, is a political agitator or a truly ignorant. Your argument is a lie, and clearly you are here by political interests."[99]
• "A famous type of trolling."[100]
• "Brazilian coward way to resolve disputes: 'source, source...' (that's common in internet, little brazilian kids defeated in discussions do this...)."[101] (his opinion about the other editors who requested sources)
• "It's "coward way" because when brazilians discuss, they don't try to accept nothing and don't try himselves to find sources."[102] (the same as above)
• "As this word... is used as a means of spreading hatred."[103]
• "Anyone who says otherwise, is lying."[104] (anyone who doesn't agree with him)

His words carry a harsh meaning and I believe others would know what to do with him better than I do. --Lecen (talk) 19:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

There's been no personal attacks since he returned from his block, so I don't see a need for further action at this point. I would also note that, while some of his comments were inexcusable, he's only one side in a dispute with gross personal attacks on both sides. It's probably worth watching how this develops, but I'd rather hold off any action until there's an obvious need to intervene. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 22:16, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to point that there were no "gross personal attacks on both sides". There were two editors fighting over the matter. Then, the administrator, myself and another editor appeared asking bot to stop and then we shared our views. Your message seems to imply that I and the other editor also used "gross personal attacks". --Lecen (talk) 22:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I see no need for action at the moment. Rauzaruku and User:Cristiano Tomás indulged in a nasty edit-war with lots of personal commentary, but stopped after warnings from me: Christiano apologized to Rauzaruku [105]. Rauzaruku continued to attack other users after a second, very specific warning from me, so I blocked him for 48 hours. He's made two article edits reflecting his point of view but hasn't indulged in personal reflections, so for now it's just a content dispute requiring no administrative action. Acroterion (talk) 23:52, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Lecen, to clarify, I wasan't accusing you of making personal attacks - sorry if I gave that impression. I was referring to Cristiano Tomás' edit summaries, some of which I RevDelled as gross personal attacks. Still, I don't think we need any administrative action for now. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 16:46, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Administrator The Rambling Man

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The Rambling Man (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This article was nominated for deletion[106] today. The article's creator[107] shortly afterwards sought out three editors so I referred[108] the editor to WP:Canvassing.

Rambling man wrote[109] in reply- "Godot13, in reply to your message, yes, getting involved with aviation articles will doubtless lead you to the cabal that believe they own all aviation articles across Wikipedia', which is a real shame. We had a good start, and even MilbourneOne's comments were being addressed on the talkpage, yet the trigger-happy owners of such articles'Bold text have deemed this one ready for deletion already. I'm sorry about that, although it's somewhat outside my edit zone. I've had a number of very bad experiences with some editors at the "aviation "project", and I suppose I'll just add this to the list. However, the one thing I've distilled out of it which I agree with (and I noted at the FLC) was the fatality %. I'd axe it. In other news, I've yet to do a proper review, so there may be other issues I could find, but the whole AFD thing is a sorry tale of presumed project ownership gone bad".

He accused the editors of the Aviation and other associated task forces that tend to aviation crash articles of conspiring to commit WP:OWN. This because some editors hold a differing view than his own. Note how he puts aviation project in quotes. Somebody will say this is a mild case of WP:NPA but this is an administrator with an extensive edit history. If an administrator thinks a whole project is conspiring to commit a violation of WP policy, then he either needs to put up or face discipline himself. If a administrator violates WP:NPA how can he be expected to uphold it?...William 01:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

First off, why bring this here without talking with him first? Barring emergencies, you shouldn't bring something here first. Secondly, I've checked your diffs, and between them and the comments you quote, I don't see anything deserving sanction. I don't say this because TRM is an admin; general statements like this one aren't NPA violations if made by non-admins any more than they are if they're made by admins. Nyttend (talk) 02:11, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

He also accused the project of WP:OWN here[110]. It is not a one time occurrence and he gives no prove of what he is saying. Is accusing a project multiple times of violating WP policy acceptable behavior for an administrator? The project is over 200 editors BTW....William 02:29, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

First off, TRM's admin status is irrelevant here; admins and non-admins are equally responsible to follow NPA and all other policies. Secondly, this really isn't a personal attack, and it's really not actionable otherwise. Nyttend (talk) 02:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll second what Nyttend said here. NPA does not make all people immune from criticism. This is not a personal attack. --Jayron32 02:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Are we done wasting the community's time here? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

What is being said here is that an administrator can accuse community members of violating some WP policy without a shred of proof and face no punishment for it. Rambling Man has done it on at least two occasions. That is just one more reason I'll say- There are two sets of rules around here one for administrators and one for everyone else. A perfect example of which is this at Arbcom where an administrator who was taken to ANI over what he said off wiki and had people calling for him to be stripped of administrator status(but only see nothing happen here when he clearly violated[111] WP:CIVIL) now lead the case[112] against other editors for their off wiki behavior. An administrator can prosecute but not be found guilty of the same. Two sets of rules around here....William 14:55, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Take it up with Arbcom. There were no personal attacks, as evidenced by the editors above who you've just ignored. And just for kicks, this was my other experience of the aviation project trying to push an agenda: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2013 Vauxhall helicopter crash. (You want evidence, you got it). Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WilliamJE

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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WilliamJE (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I wrote and recently published List of aircraft accidents and incidents resulting in at least 50 fatalities, which is currently a FLC, and has been referenced above.

This list was proposed for deletion yesterday stating that it “appears to be a jargon filled duplication of other lists already on Wikipedia.” My response can be seen here. An hour later this was followed by this AfD.

I am assuming that this is not the place to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) surrounding the AfD.

Upon notification, I further inquired and requested advice from three other users (as WilliamJE has pointed out above). He was very swift to remind me of the policy on canvassing to which I informed him that I had left messages for one of the directors of FLC as well as two editors who are actively reviewing the list, letting them know and asking them (as editors with far more experience than me) if they had any advice on how I should proceed. I also asked WilliamJE to assume good faith, which seemed to be lacking, and that I felt watched by the suddenness and tone of his message. The bulk of the discussion can be seen here. WilliamJE subsequently accuses me of being uncivil, then threatens an ANI, accuses me of threatening him, I respond, and in the meantime he takes Rambling Man to ANI, and then, I think, both threatens me and gloats about it at the same time. I did not address this on WilliamJE’s talk page based in large part on his threatening stance.

Regarding a circle of specific aviation editors-- Since I can’t seem to post inquiries on other user talk pages without observation, I will ask here: what are the elements necessary to establish a case of WikiBullying? Thank you.--Godot13 (talk) 04:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Godot, is it possible that you're a bit peeved that an article you started is currently at AFD, and you're a little sensitive? "Warnings" are not "threats". Being advised that your edits might be against policies such as WP:CANVASS is not harassing, or an attempt to drive you off this project. As your edits are viewable to the entire world, reviewing someone's edits to see if they might be problematic is not hounding. I see nothing in your diffs that suggest incivility, attacks, attempts to drive you off the project, or anything of the sort (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• • It is possible... I withdraw my complaint.--Godot13 (talk) 16:44, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Rossen4's conduct

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Rossen4 (talk · contribs)

I running against a wall of how to collaborate with Rossen4. In approximately 5 years of editing, Rossen4 has never used an edit summary, despite a request made in 2011. They almost never discuss their edits on a talk page. To be clear, I don't think a block is the correct next step. I'm just not sure what is the correct next step...

My involvement with Rossen4 came recently at the Modern Buddhism, where they have been edit warring to keep their preferred version in. At first, I tried to explain the problem with the edits in my edit summaries, but Rossen4 just reverted without explanation. Rather than cross the 3RR line myself, I 1) cautioned about edit warring, 2) again asked Rossen4 to use edit summaries, and 3) invited Rossen4 to join a discussion I started at the article's talk page.

Rossen4 ignored all my messages, and continues to edit without responding to my concerns. I'm really not sure what to do next... Singularity42 (talk) 13:31, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I left a note on their talkpage urging to engage. I noticed that they have never engaged in discussion on their talkpage, so I don't know how provicient they are with talkpages. They have to start responding to editing concerns. If they are unwilling to discuss, then they should not edit articles where someone disagrees with them. That's a very bad starting point for a collaborative project though. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Martijn. Unfortunately, Rossen4 has continued to edit since you posted your message on their talk page, without responding to your message... Singularity42 (talk) 18:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Rossen4: I simply deleted a doubled link. The link in the third entry of the page went to the same page as the link in the second entry of the page. I didn't actually delete any info. Just removed the second instance of the same link. Hello. There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Rossen4 is now communicating on their talk page, and the most recent edits now have edit summaries. Now that the edit in question has been explained, I have no issue with it. I hope Rossen4 keeps up the willingness to communicate and collaborate. At this point, as the OP, I believe this thread can be closed. Singularity42 (talk) 20:42, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Looks promising. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 21:17, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Closing a requested move

Talk:South_Robertson,_Los_Angeles#Requested_move. Only one "weak oppose" there. No response to the main argument that "South Robertson" and "Pico-Robertson" are two different places. Los Angeles Times uses "Pico-Robertson, " and that is what the article should be named. GeorgeLouis (talk) 02:59, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

There is a backlog at Requested move (WP:RM#Backlog); it will be closed in time, in turn. -- tariqabjotu 03:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Sanctions enforcement requested

On Purewal, User:Kironbd07 Karan Purewal (talk · contribs) has repeatedly inserted unsourced information about the caste, reverting to preserve the information, including after I both explained the issue with unsourced edits and warned the user of the sanctions on all South Asian caste articles (see WP:CASTE). As the sanctions were community imposed rather than Arbcom imposed, I've brought the further violations here to request a block or other sanction. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:20, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

That is not the correct username. You mean Karan Purewal (talk · contribs) i presume. -- Diannaa (talk) 05:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, thank you; I had too many tabs open. OMG, and I just realized I failed to notify the user. Doing so now. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

He has stopped editing for the moment; perhaps your template re: sanctions has been read and understood. It was received on his talk page the same minute during which he made his last edit. -- Diannaa (talk) 05:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Review requested - Sandstein's block of Saedon

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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During an arbitration enforcement discussion centred around Scientology, User:Saedon made a comment that (in part) reads "scientology is a ridiculous cult and we do not need members of said cult to build our articles on the subject". This is quite clearly inappropriate, and so User:Sandstein blocked Saedon for 48 hours for "Personal attacks or harassment". This block was (quite reasonably) documented here, where it was made clear that is was done as an individual administrative action rather than as an arbitration enforcement action, and is thus something any admin can undo, and something that can be discussed at AN/I.

Both User:Dennis Brown and myself questioned the necessity of the block; I can't speak for Dennis, but my area of concern mostly centred around the lack of any kind of warning. While warnings are not required for blocks, I usually interpret this (perhaps wrongly) as basically saying that if someone is being obviously, actively disruptive, we don't have to jump through the hoops of going "level 1 warning. Level 2 warning. Level 3...." before blocking; Saedon, is a user with no block log and to my knowledge no record of this sort of behaviour, whose contributions after the offending edit showed disengagement from the area. Even if he wasn't showing disengagement, there are ways to solve for user misbehaviour that are below the level of a block.

To his credit, Sandstein quickly responded to the concerns I and others raised. His argument for the block being preventative, rather than punitive, was based around comments from Saedon's unblock request, which confused me greatly since it doesn't seem appropriate to justify the necessity of an action based on things that happened after it. His next comment here was "the block will reduce the likelihood of similar misconduct by you and possibly others in the future". I'm interpreting this (perhaps uncharitably) as suggesting that Sandstein sees one of the legitimate uses of blocking as, essentially, a "time out"; that a block forces a user to adjust his behaviour, and furthermore that it sits as a warning to other users. Unlike the Royal Navy, we do not shoot one admiral to serve as an example to others; blocks should be in response to an active threat, not as a way of chilling others. Chilling negative behaviour vicariously is a side-effect of blocks, not a justification for them. I'm coming to AN/I to request wider comment as to the validity of the block, and as to the spin Sandstein seems to be putting on the blocking policy. Ironholds (talk) 22:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• I support unblocking. Oliver and I agree on every point above. Saedon has a long record of nothing but productive work and a warning should have been tried first. Nothing personal against the blocking admin, but blocking should have been the last resort, not the first. Saedon's wording was a mistake, but a mistake that a warning could have cleared up. There is no pattern of behavior to "deter" here, making this block unnecessary. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Good decision to block, but the duration was too long for a first warning. Two hours would have been better. Suggestion that other editors are not welcome is a serious matter, but the point is made with an initial short block. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Unblock - The comment was fairly uncivil, but Saedon should have first been warned and given the opportunity to retract the unpleasantness. I think Sandstein operated in good faith, but erred in using the hammer so freely. - MrX 22:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Note: Saedon wishes to communicate " I understand that my status as a regular does not allow to act with impunity, only that it should afford me a discussion... I did not word that well in my unblock request and do not want people to think that I think I am "above the law," or so to speak." Ironholds (talk) 22:57, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Unblock Bad block, worse response. In a situation where a warning to remove the material would have easily sufficed, we have an admin blocking a long-time editor with a clean block log for two days, then compounding the insult by using the obviously frustrated editor's unblock request as grounds for the initial block. This is the kind of action that loses long-time editors. Mistakes are made, and both parties seem to have made one. Deciding to dig in your heels and justify a bad block after the fact is just a slap in the face, and that's the kind of insult that causes editors to become understandably frustrated with the entire process. This block isn't "preventing" anything, and an admin needs to lift it immediately. Dayewalker (talk) 22:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Unblock - Warning would have been the best action, the block is not necessary - I'd consider this "lesson learned" and leave it at that. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Bad block - Compared to others discussed somewhere else (ahem) Saedon has no history of incivility and to jump straight to a block without talking to him and gauging his reaction is ridiculous. There's a double standard here. Why? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:03, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Unblock. It is true that scientology is a ridiculous cult, but obviously one cannot say that "we do not need members of said cult to build our articles on the subject", certainly not in the context of an AE discussion because you then blame whatever the discussed problem was there on merely scientology membership. However, one shouldn't block people without warning when they make such mistakes the first time here. If this were repeat behaviour, it would be different. Count Iblis (talk) 23:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• I have unblocked Saedon based on the consensus of the discussion above. --Jayron32 23:25, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Jayron32 has just unblocked me and I wanted to take this opportunity to say a couple things. Firstly, thank you very much to Ironholds and Dennis for helping me throughout this ordeal. I also want to thank all those above who supported me being unblocked and Jayron32 for pulling the proverbial trigger. Secondly, I would like to acknowledge that I understand my comment was very poorly worded and those who know me know that I generally have a more professional decorum. I also agree that Sandstein acted in good faith and harbor no ill will towards him, though I would ask him to consider far less drastic measures in the future when dealing with editors who have broken a rule but who do not have a history of doing so. Like Ironholds, I am concerned that Sandstein's interpretation of the blocking policy is not in line with that of the community but I do not think it needs to be discussed further - I am sure there will be self reflection on both our ends (and this is not to diminish his hard work at WP:AE, where he is actively dealing with some of the most difficult cases on WP).

Lastly, I plan on abandoning my Saedon account and I am going to resume editing on my original account, User:Noformation. The reason being that my original account has a fair number of talk page watchers who may have been able to expedite this process today (not that I plan on getting blocked in the future :D) while User:Saedon does not have enough to even register a number. Anyway, I'm glad to be back so let's get on with the editing! Sædon^talk 23:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to Jayron32 for unblocking. Tony (talk) 09:28, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Good call, Jayron, and the others who helped sort this out. Neotarf (talk) 12:28, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• I thought "Saedon" was a pretty cool username. Mindy Dirt (talk) 17:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, it's my real first name so I still get to use it a lot :). N^oformation ^Talk 22:51, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• • Wouldn't it have made more sense (not to mention less drama-inducing), to have simply asked Saedon something like this, "Hey, I think you crossed the line with this comment. Can you please refactor or remove the comment?" A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

It might have ... however, an attack on someone's faith is one of the big no-no's in most environments. Indef until they agreed to retract/remove would be appropriate as it would be in any work environment (✉→BWilkins←✎) 17:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I dare say that anyone who calls scientology a cult is unlikely accepting the notion that scientology is a faith, and thus does not agree that he is attacking anyone's faith. --Conti|✉ 20:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and that's part of the problem. Certainly Scientology appears to be very problematic in various respects as an organization, and its tenets of faith very peculiar even by the standards of religious beliefs. And editors are free to say so. But as a matter of simple decency, nobody on Wikipedia (or in any other group) should tolerate that others are attacked as a person merely for adhering to a faith or other moral conviction. I've discussed this at some length on Saedon's talk page.  Sandstein  21:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of whether a block or a warning combined with a request to strike would have been the best approach to take, what Saedon said was an absolute textbook example of the kind of personal attack this project's policy says will not be tolerated. You can't have a policy like that and then not enforce it. It just looks like hypocrisy. In this case, at least Sandstein did something to uphold policy. Nobody else did. Given the choice, I prefer Sandstein's approach. Andreas JN466 01:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'll take note that the community (as represented by the veteran editors commenting here) prefers warning veteran editors before blocking them, even for such acts as aggressively disparaging the faith of others. That's understandable in terms of our social dynamics, but it reinforces my impression that too many are perhaps unconsciously adopting a mindset that treats Wikipedia as a social network rather than a serious, rule-based collaborative work. It particularly reinforces the impression that administrators and other veteran editors can get away with much more misconduct just because they have plenty of friends. The opposite should be the case. As Bwilkins says, conduct that would result in an immediate suspension or similar in a real-life work environment should result in the same here – because Wikipedia too is a work environment, not a playground. (Though I should add that I much appreciate Saedon's, Ironholds's and Dennis Brown's measured and polite approach to our disagreement.)  Sandstein  20:40, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Awwwww, somebody's gwumpy. Here Sandy, this is something that is sure to cheer you up.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:28, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Sandstein, the workplace analogy is a bunch of nonsense and always has been. What workplace allows people with aims that run counter to the company's goals to show up and undo/screw with the good work people who actually want to work for the company have done, and it takes months to get such people thrown out? None that I'm aware of, and if there is such a place, I'd wager there's a heck of a lot of swearing and name-calling there, too. That is exactly what Wikipedia does in allowing POV pushers and trolls to have their way with this site. It is unrealistic to expect this place to act like a workplace. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but that's not a reason not to do to anything about it. We are Wikipedia, and it is we who are responsible for allowing disruption by tolerating it.  Sandstein  07:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

What should be done about it is to treat the disease, POV pushing and abuse of our content policies, rather than the symptom of incivility. Blocking people for incivility here makes about as much sense as firing the people who swear at the folks undermining the company goals rather than the people actually doing so. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 08:30, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• Add me to the list. Bad block. Carrite (talk) 22:24, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I can certainly understand your perspective here and in fact I agree with it - I don't think veteran editors should get away with more misconduct so let me elaborate my position. Suppose you have three editors, A, B, and C. Editor A signed up two weeks ago, made 3 innocuous minor edits and then on his 4th edit he went to Talk:Israel and accused all the editors of being Zionists trying to spread Jewish propaganda and he used racial slurs. Editor B has had an account for a year and has made 500 edits, while normally collegial she crosses the line one night and makes a comment that clearly falls within WP:NPA. Editor C started off a lot like editor B but as time passes he makes more and more disruptive, rude comments; administrators have tried talking, but talking has lead to no changes.

Now, one might argue that an offense is an offense and none of the cases above should be judged except on the merits of the case. Here's why I think that's wrong: editor A came to Wikipedia like a bull in a China shop: here to push an agenda and demonstrates almost immediately that he has trouble working in a collaborative environment. Blocking him immediately (though I don't even agree that all new editors should be blocked for policy violations, I used a rather harsh example here only to demonstrate my point)has both the effect of preventing further outbursts through technical means, and of sending a clear message that this is not how Wikipedia works - both of which I think are in line with blocking policy. Editor B, on the other hand, has demonstrated that they can and normally do work in a collaborative environment, but for what ever reason crossed the line on a particular occasion. A block here does not, in my estimation, accomplish the goal of preventing damage directly. It does, I think, accomplish the second goal - sending a message of what is and isn't acceptable - but blocking as the first means to dispute resolution can often have the effect of producing more heat than light. The reason that editor B should be given the benefit of the doubt is because editor B has already demonstrated she can be collaborative and so I think we should work under the assumption that a conversation can probably solve the problem. And if a conversation can solve the problem then a block is unnecessary.

The main difference between editors B and C is that editor C was given the benefit of the doubt but refused to either acknowledge or change his behavior, and when that happens there is a clear and present need to block both to prevent damage and to demonstrate what we can and cannot tolerate.

So it is not that veteran editors should be able to get away with more misconduct, it is that editors with a track record of collegiality should be assumed to be able to respond collegiality to other editor's concerns. When that is demonstrated not to be the case - whether the editor has 10 edits or 10,000 - then I think a block is wholly appropriate.

As an aside, I don't agree with the idea that faith is a specially protected position. The fact of the matter is I shouldn't have attacked an editor period, whether over his/her faith or anything else. N^oformation ^Talk 22:39, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The approach you describe certainly has merit, and I would agree with it, were it not for the following: Conduct enforcement on Wikipedia (especially towards established editors) is spotty and haphazard at best, simply because few administrators are willing to engage in it in their spare time, just to get nothing out of it except the certainty of loud criticism by their colleagues (as this case demonstrates). That being so, whenever it is undertaken, it should be done effectively and visibly, in order to produce a deterrent effect on others, even though that may not be perceived as fair by the user who is (somewhat randomly) affected.

Secondly, your approach focuses on what is best for the offender. That's understandable but, I think, mistaken. An effective anti-harrassment policy should focus on the victims of harrassment. A person who is being harrassed on Wikipedia, just to be told that "oh, he's a good guy really, just a little cranky today perhaps, I'll go have a word with him", will not feel that they are being taken seriously. They'll only see a clique of insiders protecting each other. And they'll leave. And retaining these many people (often women, I assume, based on our gender balance) who may be driven away by a culture of unmindful impoliteness is far more important to me than retaining the relatively few, but noisy, veteran editors who are not willing to conform to the necessary rules of a collaborative workspace. (Just to be clear, I don't mean you; as I said I much appreciate your approach to this situation.) For these reasons, in your example, I would block A, B and C, but only A and C indefinitely.

Incidentally, this discussion is similar to one ongoing in the (Anglosphere) SF/F fandom concerning harrassment policies at fan conventions, where there seems to be a similar cultural disconnect between male scene veterans and others, notably women, who demand effective protection from harrassment. See, for instance, this blog post by author John Scalzi – I couldn't help but think of Wikipedia.  Sandstein  07:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• I am a strong supporter of significant blocks for chronic incivility. However, in this case, we appear to have only a moment of crankiness. Certainly nothing to warrant a block. Taroaldo ✉ 05:59, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• The question of whether members of a particular group should be allowed to edit articles on that topic has come up before. For example the TM and Scientology groups come up for discussion in an arbcom discussion here. Neotarf (talk) 06:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
• Very Bad block. And it would have been just as bad a block for a new, inexperienced user who cannot be expected to know all policies on Wikipedia, and even less, where the excact line is drawn for different topics. I too want civility on Wikipedia, but we should not expect people to be perfect all the time. Friendly advices and then warning can go a long way. Most users want to follow the rules,when it is laid out for them. Blocks should only be used when a user indicates by his words and deeds that they more generally have no ability or wish to follow the policies; it should not be used because users as humans beings naturally make this or that mistake or misjudgement. We all do, also Sandstein. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 07:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• Really bad block and shows a trend. A moderator is a better moderator if he can empathize with people (including the "criminal"). In particular emphasize with someone spouting off in a moment of frustration. Instead of lowering the hammer, try reaching out to the fellow or using a little humor or just doing something to put oil on the water. I think Sandstein has been acting the heavy so long (for years) that it has gone to his head.TCO (talk) 21:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
• Comment and support for the blocking admin: I'm not a pro-block kind of a person, and I'm not gloating about the block, I however feel that Sandstein's arguments that the user is experienced enough not to make mistakes etc. that newbees make are very sound. I had commented that Saedon's comments were simply unnecessary as they were about a belief system and Wikipedia editors have no right to badmouth belief systems. Having said that, Saedon has apologised for his comments here. "Absolutely ridiculous" is no way to start an unblock request. I'm sure if he had apologised for the same during his unblock appeal, the block would have been affected sooner and without unnecessary drama. All of us learn lessons and I hope the right lessons have been learnt here. Happy editing Saedon! Nothing personal and no hard feelings! Yogesh Khandke (talk) 06:30, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User: Amaury

(The following is copied and pasted from User talk:Beeblebrox)

Amaury is abusing Huggle again. I know that your away, but I don't know where else to put this. 71.255.81.232 (talk) 07:21, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

(Talk page stalker) The links you added were not appropriate wiki material. Additionally, if you had a problem with my revert, why did you not come to my talk page like the message on your talk page said and ask about it? And no, the comment you inserted in a random place does not count. - Amaury (talk) 16:48, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Whether or not my edits were good is besides the point. The point is that my edits were not spam. I went to your talk page and saw that someone else was also complaining about you making false accusations. You said that this edit edit by 96.246.214.161 appeared "to constitute vandalism". The user was simply reorganizing the article in a way that made sense, possibly because incognito mode is a feature that has nothing to do with privacy from external sources, which is what privacy usually refers to regarding browsers, and Google has been criticized for user tracking. Regardless of whether you agree with the change, it was wrong to accuse the user of vandalism. I looked at your history and searched your many usernames in the administrators' noticeboard and saw that you have made false accusations many times and have been informed and told to stop many times. Examples [113] [114] [115] [116] [117] [118] [119] [120] [121] [122] [123] [124] [125] [126] [127] [128] [129] [130] [131] [132] [133] [134] [135] [136] [137] [138] [139] [140] [141] [142] [143] [144] [145] [146] [147] [148] [149] [150] [151] [152] [153] [154][155] [156][157] [158][159] [160][161] [162][163] [164][165] [166][167] [168][169] [170][171] [172][173] [174][175] [176][177] [178][179] [180][181] [182] 71.251.46.57 (talk) 07:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

(End paste)

I am willing to wait for Beeblebrox to come back from his vacation. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 07:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Amaury does one revert which includes removing blog and Youtube links and you're dragging him to ANI and providing diffs from 2009? Why? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 08:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It is not about removing blog and Youtube links. As you can see, he has been informed of his actions and told to stop many times. I am concerned that his behavior is driving other editors away. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 08:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you have diffs from the last year that indicates this is still an issue? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 08:29, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

This is about false accusations, such as those of vandalism and spam. Recently, he used his edit summary to accuse me of spamming and accused 96.246.214.161 of vandalism, which I described above. 96.246.214.161 wrote about it on Amaury's talk page[183]. I also commented, but Amaury removed my comment. The diffs that go back to 2009 are to show that Amaury has already been informed of the issue many times. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 08:49, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

More from this year (not included above) [184] [185] [186] [187] [188] [189] [190] [191] [192] 71.251.46.57 (talk) 09:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

He just recently deleted messages intended for other users[193][194] without initial permission[195] and gave high level vandalism warnings for the messages[196][197]. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 10:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

But it does seem that you were spamming Wikipedia with links to blogs and youtube ... so their actions towards your edits and the associated warnings do appear correct (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Um no, I don't know what you were looking at, but I was not spamming external links[198] as he said, so his accusation in his edit summary was incorrect. I used one blog source and one Youtube source in addition to 2 mainstream news sources in an attempt to contribute to an article. The blog and Youtube source could be considered using unreliable sources. It was not spamming external links[199] to the article[200].11:27, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Here[201] he gives a user a level 2 vandalism warning for trying to insert an image into an article missing an image instead of fixing the formatting or explaining what was wrong. The image did appear to be relevant to the article. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 11:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

But they tried to insert a picture 332 pixels by 332 pixels ... which is not kosher (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:16, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not vandalism though. It was an attempt from the user to insert an image of the article subject. Amaury could have gave a proper explanation instead of making a vandalism accusation. Whether the edits made by other users were good for the articles is not the point, although he has called a lot of good edits vandalism. The point is that the edits were not vandalism, spam, personal attacks, or whatever other false accusations he makes them to be. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 12:17, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It could easily be argued that your links to a blog and youtube were spam. It could easily be argued that inserting such a large image was intentional disruption, and therefore vandalism. Yes, I agree that Amaury needs to be more careful with their use of automated tools, but I'm not sure you're painting a picture where some form of direct blocking is required (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I seriously do not know what you are talking about. He accused me of adding external links. External links are the links at the bottom of the article under the section labeled "External Links"[202]. The image added was not that large and is in fact the same image that is currently in the article[203]. And even if you can argue it, you are supposed to assume good faith. This[204] editor also explains the importance of the issue. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 12:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I know what an external link is, and I know what WP:AGF is...you might actually want to learn to practice it yourself :-) So, seeing as you cannot see the opposite point of view, even when provided by a neutral third party supported by policy, I'll ask you a question: what do you expect to come out of this filing? A block? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:56, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that Bwilkins and the IP are referring to different edits here - the IP seems to be referring to this [205], which contains no URL or other link. It looks to me to be a mistake in image formatting syntax, rather than anything else. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

There are two separate instances being referred to by Bwilkins. The first is when a paragraph was newly written that contained 4 citations. One source was from a blog, another was from a Youtube video, and the other two were from mainstream news sources. Some of the sources could be considered unreliable sources, not spamming links to external sites (exact wikilink Amaury used) like Amaury accused[206]. The second incident was what Andy put, which was not vandalism. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 13:39, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Seeing as clicking a youtube link to a video increases the view-count on that video thus increasing its popularity rating, it most certainly can be called spam (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:49, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Youtube links can be used as sources. It was one Youtube link in one article and was relevant to the sentence that it was being used for as a citation. In this case, it could be considered unreliable as a source, but can hardly be considered spam, especially if considering good faith, and it wasn't in the external links section. I guess any content can be considered to be spam if you assume some sort of ulterior motive, but to make the accusation and include a wikilink to external links would be wrong. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 14:16, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I do expect some sort of measures to be taken, considering that he has already had automated tools revoked from him at least 3 times already and he has been warned numerous times on this issue. I am not sure how much of his behavior is due to automated tools, but he has full responsibility. A block seems necessary as people telling him over and over again has not worked. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 13:24, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

What would a block of x hours achieve? He already knows his edits are under greater scrutiny. As it seems he's greatly improved from 2009/2010, a reminder to use the correct warnings (as Bwilkins as done) should be enough. Should problematic reverts continue, deal with them then. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Greatly improved? He's had a bunch of reminders/complaints in the past month! 71.251.47.138 (talk) 00:22, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm...I posted hours ago, but it's gone missing. First: the IP does not appear to have taken the time to discuss this (not template) with Amury - that's job #1 before coming to ANI. Second, nothing blockable here ... the IP needs to learn that AGF applies to them, as well as everyone else. Finally, Amury's post here recognizing his errors, and identifying his way forward is positive. Your next complaint mechanism is WP:RFC/U and not ANI, should it come to that ... however, you will NEED to try and resolve this with the editor FIRST next time - no exceptions. We all need the occasional remidner to slow down every now and then ... when you revert 1000 pieces of vandalism a day, 5 "wrong" is not a horrid ratio (✉→BWilkins←✎) 00:30, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I thought that the many other users telling him about his behavior counted.

Another "reminder" today[207]. Amaury reverted the edit and gave a level 2 vandalism warning when the editor made a good-faith attempt to add content to an article. Amaury claimed that he was unfamiliar with the content. If he knows nothing about the content, then why is he calling it vandalism? Who is he to be an authority on something he knows nothing about? Even if the edit were not good for the article, the edit was not vandalism and a different message should have been used. 71.251.47.138 (talk) 01:19, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. YOU are required to try and resolve the issue directly with the editor. "Others" only count when certifying an RFC/U ... which, as you have already been told, is your next step. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

User:HashtagGags

This is the third time I've been here concerning User:HashtagGags (previously User:GagsGagsGags), I filed my first report here and my second here, of which the consequence of the latter was to be indefinitely blocked. The user appears to have come back again and re-created the hoax live album The Mrs. Carter Show... Live in Antwerp for what is perhaps the third time (I think another variation is "The Mrs. Carter Show: Live in Antwerp"). I know the usual process is to warn, and I've left a lengthy talk page note trying to encourage the user to be involved in the project in more constructive ways, but I was unsure whether this was the correct way to proceed considering the user's history and the fact that even indefinite restrictions don't seem to disparage him/her. —JennKR | ☎ 13:21, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

_{I hope you don't mind, but I corrected the link to User:HashtagGags. S.G.^(GH) ping! 13:35, 7 July 2013 (UTC)}

_{Of course not! Thanks! —JennKR | ☎ 13:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC)}

User:John seems to have done the honors. I don't think there is anything else here to do. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 13:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Rangeblock for Zombie433

Well, it's time to move on. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Community banned Zombie433 (talk · contribs) is back, I've just found and tagged and reverted 25+ IPs used in the past 3 weeks; up to his usual tricks of mis-using sources on BLPs and related articles to vandalise. If you don't remember him then search the ANI archives or look at the SPI or Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Zombie433. He is editing from 79.214.xxx.xxx - any chance a more technical minded admin can place a rangeblock please? I've semi-protected the article I caught him at to prevent disruption in the short-term. GiantSnowman 16:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC) Blocked 79.214.192.0/19 (8192 IPs); 79.214.128.0/18 (16384 IPs) for two weeks. There might be some leakage so please collect IPs if you notice any further edits and we can try to lay down the tightest possible range blocks. The more IPs you can collect the easier it is to do blocks that don't involve good faith users. -- Diannaa (talk) 21:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC) Thanks, much appreciated. GiantSnowman 09:30, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

User constantly adding unreferenced material to a BLP

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Totalrecall999 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been constantly adding unreferenced controversial information to Joshua Sridhar (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) - see here, for example. I have warned him twice, but he continues to add the material back in. StAnselm (talk) 07:27, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

This appears to be a content dispute where one party claims the information is in the references, and another does not. Please try the dispute resolution noticeboard and this one to confirm the reliability of sources (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:30, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Really? Have you looked at the article? There are no references. StAnselm (talk) 12:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I suggest that Bwilkins takes another look at what was being added - per WP:BLP policy, there is no way that such material can be added without cited in-line references. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:35, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe I meant WP:BLPN? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Totalrecall999 and an IP - presumably the same user - are still edit-warring with multiple editors over this, and as a clear violation of WP:BLP policy this needs to be stopped. This isn't remotely a content dispute, and foisting it off to WP:BLPN isn't going to solve it. Totalrecall999 has however posted on the help desk - maybe my response might finally get the message accross. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with Bwilkins' reading of the issue here and have blocked the relevant account and semi-protected the page. I would have revision-deleted the problematic revisions but the material is too mixed up in the page history. CIreland (talk) 13:49, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I think I managed to rev-delete the most egregious part of the BLP violation from the article history.--Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 15:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I have gutted the article. Not sure if he's even notable. GiantSnowman 15:40, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help, people. StAnselm (talk) 20:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit war—FAC instructions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There's a heated discussion here and related edit-war on the FAC instructions—I count 10 contentious back-and-forths in the past 15 hours, by arbs, ex-arbs, admins, normal people.

Could this page be locked for a couple of days as a cooling off measure? Tony (talk) 02:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Protected for three days. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User who previously admitted to sock-puppetry now renouncing their admission

Can an uninvolved editor review Leoesb1032 (talk · contribs)? The related sock-puppetry case can be found at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Leoesb1032/Archive.

I had opened the sock-puppetry case; they first denied having a sock, then admitted to it. Now they are denying it again, claiming that they were intimidated into giving a false confession. Note: the reason I know about their change is due to their using 68.84.125.66 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) to post about it on my talk page. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 05:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The username is a huge match. However, allowing for the possibility that the master is telling the truth, I suspect this may be an impersonation attempt by a troll (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Djapa84/Archive). I would recommend a CheckUser be run. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:16, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

One way or the other, the IP is evading the block, so I've blocked it for 10 days (the remainder of Loesb1032's block). If someone decides to unblock Loesb1032, he should undo the IP block as well.—Kww(talk) 05:22, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you both. A new SPI case is now opened at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Leoesb1032. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 05:54, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The case came back positive. I left a note on Leoesb's talkpage requesting clarification. I'm not immediately inclined to increase the block length, but I want to hear what they have to say first. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, that was effective. So, what to do now? holding their head under until they say uncle or go away is the only option I can think off, and that is a very bad option. Does anyone have an alternative? Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:33, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Why is that a bad option? It seems that he can't be honest about his edits, so why would we want to keep him around?—Kww(talk) 18:09, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The user already has over a week remaining from their second block. I do have concerns with the user's ability to become a constructive member of a collaborative community, given their repeated pattern of deception and misrepresentation.

Normally, I would suggest giving them one last chance once their current block runs out. But, given their continued denial of socking despite the positive technical results from the SPI case, I'm forced to doubt the benefit of any more chances. Not sure where that leaves us - but I would not be opposed to an indefinite block at this time. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 18:35, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Old Time Music Fan

I ran across Old Time Music Fan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) via the Recent Deaths page, where he had created a stub article for a recently deceased 12-year-old climber with no sourceable notability I could locate. Having perused OTMF's user talk and contribs page, he has a pattern of creating articles on the same day as the obit entries, and often with only one source (and one line). I can supply diffs, but it is readily apparent on brief perusal of either page.

For that reason, many of his articles are AfDed and speedied. Some of his choices are likely future articles, many of them are not, and as the choice seems arbitrary and not dependent on OTMF knowing anything about the topic, I do not believe that his pattern of behavior is contributory to the encyclopedia, as we are not here to simply generate pages, but to create informative work. We have had issues with poor stub articles in the past (even to the level of a part of an ArbCom case), and therefore I am not sure if this is a mentoring issue or an enforcement issue. Could somebody clarify this as needed and take the appropriate action? MSJapan (talk) 23:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It's as MSJapan says. I've rescued one or two of his articles, and deleted one or two. He seems to be creating them on the basis of brief news articles, often articles recording someone's death. Sometimes the person is notable, sometimes not; however, except by accident, the information he includes does not go far enough to show it. I support viable stubs, but a viable stub is one that indicates there is likely to be enough material to show notability, even if the stub itself does not fully demonstrate it. Some of his article subjects have articles in other WPs, and he makes the links (or they're made automatically), but he does not use the material, there, even to the extent of copying over the references. I have the impression than some of the article subjects are in fields he isn't knowledgable about,; this can be done, if one realises it is still necessary to at least find substantial references; I have the impression he doesn't really know what are standards are. Keeping track of news reports is not a bad way to build WP, but he needs to show some degree of selectivity, and do more work himself and leave it so much of the work for others. I'll try to explain to him. DGG ( talk ) 02:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

No apparent effect, given Solomon Oboh. MSJapan (talk) 23:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Renamed account

Someone explain, please: why would User:Juanpa Grondona redirect to what appears to be their old account, User:Jpgfuru, talk page and all? Thank you. (Not an "incident" per se, but something that someone might shed light on. Will notify.) Mindy Dirt (talk) 00:50, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

That's weird. However, I see no reason for sanctions/warnings/other intervention, except for the redirecting of the user talk page; see what I said to the user, plus the fact that this can result in people editing the other talk page without Juanpa noticing. Nyttend (talk) 01:14, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Nyttend. I wasn't even sure on which page to notify them. Mindy Dirt (talk) 01:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Re-creation of Han-Nom

The merge discussion on the above was closed, after a long time, as merge. Since then, User:Kauffner has been edit-warring to re-create it. I just discussed it with him on his talk page, and he said "Go take it to AfD already". Is that necessary or correct? Could someone try and engage with Kauffner. I'm afraid I lose my patience with him rather easily. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:18, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

For background, the merge discussion is here; all participants but Kauffner were in favour of a merge to Chữ nôm, which was done after further discussion here. (disclosure: Itsmejudith and I both participated in that discussion, and I performed the merge.) Kauffner asked about AFD here and was reminded of the difference between deletion and merging. Kanguole 23:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

It seems that there is no contradiction in copying my writing while condemning me for writing it. Anyway, if Team Harassment wasn't busy with this one, I'm sure it would be some other article I wrote, or something else. I have a dream in which certain editors put less effort into stalking me and trying to destroy my articles, and more effort into writing their own articles. Kauffner (talk) 01:00, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comments - while one can sympathize with an editor with only a few article creations to see an article merged, the fact is that as Kanguole says above the article creation was largely duplicate of the existing Chữ nôm article.

(1) this issue has already been at ANI once to caution Kauffner for repeatedly removing User:BabelStone's original merge tag (a User who has no history with Kauffner and whose User page identifies himself a published academic authority on early Chinese), although it is difficult to find the specific ANI among all the other Kauffner ANIs.

(2) the root problem is partly WP:COMPETENCE in that Kauffner believes (to put into a parallel presented to Kauffner by vi.wp/en.wp editor User:Mxn) that "Graeco-Roman" refers to one subject with a script "Graeco-Roman" or a language "Greek-Latin". But this isn't the case; Vietnamese written with Vietnamese demotic characters (Nôm), and Chinese written with Chinese characters are two different languages with two different scripts.

(3) related to this root problem has been (i) creation of the Han-Nom article above, (ii) editing [within articles] of Template talk:Infobox Chinese to create [activate on articles] a category "Han-Nom" - ignoring the problem that many Vietnamese books, gods and places have both Vietnamese and Chinese names. (iii) creation of additional templates and insertion across the WikiProject Vietnam article corpus example (iv) moving and locking (as sockpuppet User:TenMuses for which Kauffner was just un-blocked) the article Institute of Hán-Nôm Studies (equivalent to a Department of Greek and Latin at western universities).

(4) And all this accompanied by the form of Talk page communication illustrated by the reply to Kanguole and Itsmejudith above. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

ACTION: the problem is not just the duplicate article, but looking at this is assigning Kauffner a 1RR limit an option on all these "Han-Nom infobox" additions across the WikiProject Vietnamese article corpus? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:22, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• I just noticed the title of this section, which is quite misleading. No, the page was never deleted. I was simply reverting. We did this same song-and-dance over at page protection just a few days ago. The descriptor "Han-Nom" had been on both Template:Infobox Chinese and Template:Infobox Vietnamese for years. I wrote the Han-Nom article so that this descriptor would have a place to link to. The article itself has a collection of references that use the term. Kauffner (talk) 02:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

That was reasoning to use in the merge discussion, not here after Kanguole's closing of that discussion. Admins, if Kanguole was correct in closing with a decision to merge, the article shouldn't be re-created, am I correct? Itsmejudith (talk) 07:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It's a good thing that people here get to see the kind of lies I've had to put up with. No, nothing was ever closed. The discussion is at Talk:Chữ_nôm#Proposed_merge. Kauffner (talk) 09:44, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

The (rather lengthy) merge discussion was actually here; your link is to a follow-up discussion about implementation. There was no formal close, but as I mentioned above, all participants in that discussion except you were in favour of a merge to Chữ nôm, and it was on that basis that Gaijin42 redirected the article and I performed the merge. Kanguole 16:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Could a completely uninvolved admin have a look at what has been going on? Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Re-created again. What happens next? If the merge wasn't correctly closed - and it was open for months - what now? Itsmejudith (talk) 18:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• 08:07, 8 July 2013‎ Kauffner (31,546 bytes) (+31,522)‎ . . (Reverted 1 edit by Dominus Vobisdu (talk) to last revision by Kauffner. (TW)) (undo | thank)
• 07:37, 8 July 2013‎ Dominus Vobisdu (talk | contribs)‎ . . (24 bytes) (-31,522)‎ . . (Undid revision 563341741 by Kauffner (talk). Clearly against consensus.)
• 07:14, 8 July 2013‎ Kauffner (talk | contribs)‎ . . (31,546 bytes) (+31,522)‎ . . (Undid revision 563317428 by Gaijin42 (talk)) (undo | thank)
• 02:28, 8 July 2013‎ Gaijin42 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (24 bytes) (-31,522)‎ . . (redirecting per strong consensus.) (undo | thank)
• 16:40, 7 July 2013‎ Kauffner (31,546 bytes) (+31,294)‎ . . (revert blanking) (undo | thank)
• 23:32, 5 July 2013‎ User:Dominus Vobisdu (-31,294)‎ . . (Undid revision 563014358 by Kauffner (talk). Clearly against consensus.) (undo | thank)
• 19:39, 5 July 2013‎ Kauffner (31,546 bytes) (+31,294)‎ . . (Undid revision 562985382 by Cuchullain (talk)) (undo | thank)
• 15:18, 5 July 2013‎ User:Cuchullain (-31,294)‎ . . (Revert edit warring against clear consensus.) (undo | thank)
• 12:17, 5 July 2013‎ Kauffner (+31,294)‎ . . (revert blanking) (undo | thank)
• 02:20, 1 July 2013‎ User:Gaijin42 (-31,344)‎ . . (Reverted to revision 562326669 by In ictu oculi: afd not needed when consensus clear. . (TW)) (undo | thank)
• 01:57, 1 July 2013‎ Kauffner (+31,344)‎ . . (Undid revision 562326669 by In ictu oculi (talk) take it to AFD already) (undo | thank)
• 01:18, 1 July 2013‎ In ictu oculi (-31,344)‎ . . (Undid revision 562324043 by Kauffner there was a 6-1 support for this merge) (undo)
• 00:52, 1 July 2013‎ Kauffner (+31,344)‎ . . (Reverting vandalism) (undo | thank)
• 14:12, 19 June 2013‎ Gaijin42 (-31,340)‎ . . (redirecting to chu nom per merge discussion.) (undo | thank)
• merge performed by Kanguole

Note: User:Dominus Vobisdu and User:Cuchullain were not involved in the discussion to merge. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:16, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Somebody man up and take this to AFD already. Kauffner (talk) 09:08, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:MERGE "mergers are generally not proposed from the onset of Articles for Deletion (AfD) discussions" - this was a merge discussion. No one denies the subject is notable, which is why there was already a large longstanding article. But can an uninvolved admin please look at the merge discussion and per Judith's question "If the merge wasn't correctly closed - and it was open for months - what now?" In ictu oculi (talk) 09:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

In the merger discussion, you argued that the idea of Han-Nom was original research. That's certainly a basis to go to AFD. Han-Nom is all my writing, with a lot of it based on Vietnamese-language sources. So the content at the time of the discussion was quite different than that of chu Nom or any other article. Stuff gets copy-and-pasted on Wiki all the time. I can't stop people from copying material I write, copying being the sincerest form of flattery and all. Kauffner (talk) 10:38, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Kauffner is now in violation of 3RR on this topic. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:01, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I was incorrect, however, he has been blocked for 72 hours for edit warring and calling other editors vandals. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

To be clear, it was basically just the edit warring that the block was for; the vandalism accusations, while not helping his case, aren't really part of the blocking grounds. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 15:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Multiple promotional accounts

• Fact reporter (talk · contribs)
• Fact reporter1 (talk · contribs)

Both accounts are being used for promotional purposes by same user or group of users, as admitted here [208]. 76.248.151.159 (talk) 18:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this seems to very obviously be the case. However, it is more pertinent to note that the account is being used by someone being paid to edit on behalf of two individuals to produce Wikipedia articles, and this firm may have done the same in the past. I've created a sockpuppet case to dig deeper. I am also trying to inform the individual of the problems their edits have caused.—Ryulong (琉竜) 18:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Well noted--thank you. 76.248.151.159 (talk) 18:51, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Fact reporter1 has written Yes I work for the individuals in order to create blogs, web pages and wiki page upkeep. They are television celebrities and have hired my group to oversee all. [209]. Additionally, they are persistently accusing those cleaning up after them of vandalism. 76.248.151.159 (talk) 19:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Just for clarity, these are the claimed vandal IPs:

• User:204.602.032.27 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• User:151.164.129.3 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• User:204.602.03227 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• User:151.164.129.2 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• User:151.164.112.18 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• User:151.164.129 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• User:151.164.61 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

--Auric talk 20:56, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Only the second, fourth, and fifth of those are actually valid IPv4 addresses, and those have no contributions. The first and third, if punctuated differently, might be interpreted as 204.60.203.227, which is a valid address, but which also has no contributions. The sixth and seventh addresses have only three octets and are thus not valid. JanetteDoe (talk) 22:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Those are the IPs claimed to be vandals by the accused party in this case, which I've already dismissed for the reasons JanetteDoe points out. And I had somehow inserted a period into one of the IPs when trying to figure out what this guy was talking about so I've modified it in Auric's comment above, showing that this person we're working with is full of malarkey.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:02, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Graham87

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Sorry for the bother, but I've tried to work this out to no avail. I created a new article Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome (HPS) and Graham87 (talk · contribs) moved the page to Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome and then undeleted redirects and wiped out my credit for having created the page. In the first place, Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome is known by the title I gave it in the article. He claims it's not allowed per Wiki policy. There are several pulmonary syndromes, in the medical literature it is referred to as Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome (HPS) which is why I gave it that title.

He did not attempt any talk page discussion or come to my talk page to ask me about it. Instead, he simply moved the page. When I mentioned the bit about losing the credit for creating the article, he said he doesn't care about that. I care, in the same way I'm sure other volunteer editors would care. His comments:[210]. My comments on his talk page: [211].

WP:COMMONNAME

• [212]
• [213]
• [214]
• [215]
• [216]

I'd like my credit restored for having created the article and I'd like to be able to title the article as it should be. In addition, I'd like to restore the taxbox. It is important for it to be there as HPS is caused by several strains of Hantavirus and the taxbox sorts that quite well. Thanks. Malke 2010 (talk) 04:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Most articles in Wikipedia are linked to from some other article and therefore the article title that is most natural to use in ordinary writing is the preferred title. In a medical report it's good to introduce an unfamiliar term by using an acronym or alternate name in the beginning, as you've done with Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome (HPS), but you wouldn't keep on using the double name throughout the entire article, would you? —Soap— 04:27, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't. I would refer to it as HPS. Malke 2010 (talk) 04:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Regarding credit, I've checked the edit history, and all your edits are there. —C.Fred (talk) 04:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

But in the list of articles I've created, it's no longer there. Malke 2010 (talk) 04:26, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Regarding article titles, it would be highly unusual to include an abbreviation in the title as a parenthetical. For example, the article is titled Federal Bureau of Investigation, and not "Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)". The use of a parenthetical after the name of something is used frequently in texts to indicate that further referrals to the concept will be by the abbreviation. So, when you see "Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome (HPS)" written somewhere, that just means the author is saying "Look, I'm going to use this abbreviation from now on, so I want you to know up front what that abbreviation means". The title is correct as it is now, we don't need to include the abbreviation in parentheticals in the title. It's fine to do so in the article text, just to alert the reader of what the abbreviation means later. But that's not something we do in the title. --Jayron32 04:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

He also undeleted the redirects and wiped out my article creation credit. He says, The only thing I did that was slightly irregular was undeleting the redirects – but that sort of thing is also generally uncontroversial. (A couple of articles of mine are in a similar situation). I think you should sleep on this issue and contact me again tomorrow your time. Graham87 03:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC) Malke 2010 (talk) 04:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

He could easily fix the situation he's made. Malke 2010 (talk) 04:44, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

What's broken? --Jayron32 04:46, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

As I've said above, I'd like my credit for creating the article to be restored. Malke 2010 (talk) 04:50, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Malke, So basically you are saying because the actual content you created has been moved to a page (which was initially a redirect page created by azhyd, this did not count as your new article and is being counted under azhyd's created articles? atleast as per the history here. This is a very unlucky scenario at-least as per me, That's how the move works. And also the page doesn't seem to be having severe issues that need to be resolved. As for the credit - I don't think that you could get back the article created count anymore. Is that article count really such a serious thing to worry about to bring it to ANI? Other than the page creation count - is there any other issue?  A m i t  ❤  04:56, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Per Amit, if that's what this is all about, I'm not sure we have anything to do here. Every edit you made is properly attributed insofar as they contain your name next to the edit in the article history. The fact that some utility isn't incrementing some counter the way you want it to doesn't seem like a problem that needs fixing, really. --Jayron32 05:02, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I came here because the admin is taking advantage with the tools. He didn't engage in any discussion. He could have simply given me a notice that the title needed changing. There was no need to undelete the redirects. He had to know what that would do, or if he didn't then perhaps he shouldn't have the tools. Malke 2010 (talk) 05:15, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

And I note he doesn't respect the process enough to even comment here. Malke 2010 (talk) 05:16, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Please lets not show haste, its been just an hour or two since you logged the ANI, it is usually good to wait a day or even two in most circumstances due to timezone differences.  A m i t  ❤  05:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I was listening to a radio program when you brought forward the ANI; I've only just noticed it. I knew what undeleting the redirects would do, but I didn't think there would be a problem with it. I believe it's important to preserve the history of redirects (there was a redirect at that title in *2004*, and there's no reason for that fact to be only verifiable by admins). We're here to write an encyclopedia, not to inflate people's egos. Graham87 05:26, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Personal attacks are inappropriate. Malke 2010 (talk) 05:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

@Malke, you still get credit for creating the article. It is clear from the edit history that you created the article from a redirect. Graham edited the article exactly the way I would have edited it.

@Graham, we are not here to inflate people's egos, and equally we are not here to deflate them. Writing an article can be hard work, not really valued by many other editors on Wikipedia. Editors who do write articles should not be marginalised and put down to the extent that they all too often are. --Epipelagic (talk) 05:50, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Apparently he makes a lot of page moves. Does he routinely undelete all the redirects for those pages? Malke 2010 (talk) 06:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

That's a pretty blatant bit of ABF. The move was uncontroversial. Graham summed it up when he said The fact that it deprives you of credit for creating the article according to tools like the "Articles created" program is unfortunate, but not a big deal as far as I'm concerned;Wikipedia is far bigger than you and me, and I very strongly believe that all edits should be visible to everyone where possible (my emphasis). Your edits are preserved in the history so demanding to be "able to title the article as it should be" smacks of ownership. Blackmane (talk) 10:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

It makes zero sense to keep a redirect from the original title in this case ... someone would find the actual article before they got to the misguided "(HPS)". Feel free to create a redirect from HPS (or at least add it to a disambig list if one exists there). (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Bwilkins et al here. While the OP should get credit for their contributions, they already do by the attribution history. If anyone ever disputes the OP's contributions the OP is welcome to show the attribution history to them. If the OP has a complaint about some tool not acknowledging their work, they should speak to the author of the tool or make a suggestion somewhere appropriate like WP:VPT or WP:VPP to change the tool, either way it's not an ANI issue nor does it concern Graham87. I don't even understand why the OP cares so much about the older redirect creation. No one is going to think someone creating a redirect was the major contribution to the article. It's far better for the OP that they get the attribution for the work they actually did in writing the article, not for creating the older redirect. In the event someone writes an article over an existing redirect which likely happens a resonable amount, people are going to acknowledge the person who did this made the bigger contribution in regards to the article then the person who created the redirect. (And of course even though this didn't happen here remember it's inappropriate to use a different name instead of a redirect if that's the best location just to be the one who 'created' the article. Similarly we're not going to delete a redirect just so someone can create a new article and be said to be the one who 'created' it. Amongst other things, creating useful redirects is still part of creating the encyclopaedia we call wikiedia even if a single redirect is not generally a big achievement, so we should not destroy that attribution history either.) Nil Einne (talk) 12:26, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

The OP is placing far too much emphasis on receiving "credit" as opposed to appropriate attribution in the article history, and is assuming bad faith about Graham87, who's probably done more than anybody else on Wikipedia to ensure that the full histories of articles extending back to 2001 are visible and attributed. Wikipedia isn't about receiving credit. Acroterion (talk) 12:46, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't really understand BWilkin's comment. It makes zero sense to keep a redirect from the original title in this case. What does that mean exactly? I created an article because there wasn't one. I titled it as I believed it should be titled. Graham87 came along, and without any discussion copied the content, deleted the title I'd given, and put the content to a 9 year old redirect. He could have simply moved the article to the title he says is the more appropriate one per wikipedia rules. His insistence that the history of the redirect must be preserved seems disingenuous, as he even admits it was "irregular." It's a 9 year old redirect that nobody, including the creator of the redirect, turned into an article. It could easily have gone back to being a red link. And sorry, but this admin has behaved badly. He's shown no consideration, has been dismissive, and violated WP:PA. He's abused the tools and his position. And I don't see him here addressing his behaviours, instead, I see his only comment being an abuse of the editor. Malke 2010 (talk) 14:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Go up to the Wikipedia seach bar ... start typing the name of the article ... the first one you'll see is the current title. Just because you named it something wayyyy off of the manual of style does not mean we should keep it - the new title is identical except 5 characters shorter. If you're saying we need some kind of history merge, then say so. Right now you're simply arguing the original title needed to stay, which it didn't and shouldn't, and you've been around long enough to know that. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:43, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

BWilkins, I'm not arguing to keep the title I gave it. Sorry for any confusion. Malke 2010 (talk) 16:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Malke, Lets not try to Make a mountain out of a molehill. The count could probably not be reverted back, now whats next? It is better to let it go and sleep on it, than try to vent your frustration through this venue. - Being an experienced knowledgeable editor there would be hundreds of more articles for you to count ahead in future and these are really small unfortunate one time incident. Almost everyone in this forum has had some incident or other such as this due to the technical limitations of tools and issues with the system itself. If this repeats and you find yourself being targeted to such issues you are welcome to this board again and I am sure admins here would try to make it full. But for this instance, lets take a deep breath spend the time writing a new article than here :-)  A m i t  ❤  14:54, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Malke, this is the second time I am aware of you coming to a dispute resolution forum with an incorrect understanding of Wikipedia guidelines and policies, and statements that do not appear to engage WP:AGF. As I reminded you last time (here responding to your allegations here), please take time to familiarize yourself with WP:MEDMOS and other Wikipedia editing guidelines, and please take care to assume good faith when viewing the actions of other editors. Perhaps you are unaware of the quality of Graham87's work here, or the knowledge that he brings to every edit he donates here; you might also be unaware that he reads Wikipedia with a screenreader and the time you have taken with this unnecessary complaint takes away his (indeed all of our) valuable editing time. I encourage you to better understand Wikipedia and its editing guidelines before coming to dispute resolution fora. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, this is the second time you've come to a dispute resolution forum with an incorrect understanding of what has transpired and misunderstood the evidence being presented. Do you believe that referring to an ArbCom case I did not bring, but contributed evidence to, will invalidate my complaint here? And I as recall at that forum, you parsed my comment to make it appear that it was not at all what it really was. You argued something that wasn't true at all. As for Graham87's use of a screenreader, I note that has not stopped him contributing to Wikipedia. Therefore, it shouldn't stop him answering for his behaviours now. And as I see it, his failing to discuss first, to point things out, has wasted my valuable time as well. Please remember, this is a dispute resolution forum, not a venue to attack editors. Malke 2010 (talk) 14:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Re: your concern about "parsing" of your comments-- the full comments are plainly linked. The request to please adjust your AGF-o-meter, and to understand MEDMOS, stands. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:02, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• (ec) From what I can tell, the OP wants the article to show in X!'s page creation tool. However, since the OP is no longer listed as the first person in the edit history due to a history merge (I can't tell for sure since I don't have the admin tools to see what exactly the history merge did), this causes the page to NOT show in the external tool. Is this correct? If that is the problem, then can the 1st 4 edits in the edit history be deleted since they are of zero content (only redirecting and fixing dbl rdr)? Is that a workable solution per our attribution licensing? I believe that will satisfy the OP's request. Rgrds. --64.85.214.103 (talk) 14:38, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, IP, exactly. That would work all around. The only content came from me. I could see it if there had previously been content, of course that history must be preserved, but a 9 year old redirect and nothing else? And as I said before, I came here because the admin is taking advantage with the tools. He didn't engage in any discussion. He could have simply given me a notice that the title needed changing. I could have moved the page myself. There was no need to take the measures he did, as even he admits they were 'irregular.' Malke 2010 (talk) 14:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Let me see if I have the timeline correct: You wanted to create an article but saw it already existed as a redirect. So instead you created it at a similar title. Then an admin moved it to the proper title but did a histmerge.

In a perfect world, here's what would have happened: You wanted to create an article but saw it already existed as a redirect. You instead create it as a user subpage and tag the desired article with {{db-move}}. An admin deletes the article and moves your user subpage to that correct article title, attribution intact.

So, it follows, (assuming my timeline is correct) that if the redirect would have been deleted per {{db-move}}, then the histmerge was improper. Can an admin check this out? Rgrds. --64.85.214.103 (talk) 15:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

That's a possible scenario, but it is equally possible for an editor to directly edit the redirect and replace it with an article. As with so many others here, I think the OP is far too concerned about getting credit in some obscure counting tool. I tend to agree with Graham that it is generally preferable for the complete edit history at a page (including redirections) to be readily apparent to anyone and not only to those with admin tools. older ≠ wiser 16:33, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Harassment over Sri Chinmoy article

The users Richard Reinhardt (talk · contribs) and Bipula Langosh (talk · contribs) have both been removing the Controversy section, or large portions of it, from the Sri Chinmoy article without reason. Another user reverted Richard Reinhardt's edits, and I reverted Bipula Langosh's edits. After doing this, Bipula Langosh created my user page (since deleted) with a paragraph berating me for restoring the removed content. Richard Reinhardt then posted a borderline personal attack to my talk page (diff) also regarding the same content. Also, given the similarities of the edits and the newness of the account, it wouldn't surprise me if Bipula Langosh were a sock of Richard Reinhardt. Can this be looked into? --71.199.125.210 (talk) 15:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Update: Bipula Langosh has posted a message to his talk page (diff) about this issue. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 03:38, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

So atleast now you could take it to her talk page and resolve the issue? Nothing left for admins to resolve here I guess.  A m i t  ❤  21:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Admin Qwyrxian

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Admin User:Qwyrxian declined my this edit request to fully protected article 2002 Gujarat violence. He made edit to the article as per another user's request and tagged article as 'disputed'. He acknowledge dispute and now he claim that he is commenting as uninvolved non-admin user in the dispute. Then he removed my Rfc tag in this thread claiming non-neutral drafting and he threatned me with something like topic ban in his admin capacity. I request you to tell admin Qwyrxian to stay away from the dispute. neo (talk) 14:14, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Your links seem to show that he was indeed acting as a thoughtful admin. What is the incident that you are bringing to everyone's attention? What's your point? Capitalismojo (talk) 14:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Looks like he did everything right there; there was no way he was going to revert a protected page to your preferred version (see this page for details) and your RfC was not neutrally phrased so it got removed. No problems with that. Black Kite (talk) 14:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I have let the very naughty admin know that you have dragged him here, can you take the time to it it yourself in future. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

He is switching between admin and 'uninvolved user'. Here he claims he is commenting as non-admin. Then he showed me this admin power. Is he commenting as admin or non-admin user? neo (talk) 14:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

That was not an admin action. Any editor could (and should) point you to that page to make you aware of it. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:58, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

What about this language? Pretending to be uninvolved non-admin and then showing reason/policy how admin can ban me is unacceptable. neo (talk) 15:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Don't see an issue with anything said there. You were told (by an editor) to behave, or else he'd have to strap on the guns and act like an admin. The smart person listens to the editor (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:16, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Agreed. This also doesn't mean that Qwyrxian is threatening any admin action against you. However, since you're being referred to that page, it's probably a good idea to read it and start following it so that another admin doesn't need to, either. Jauersock^dude?/_dude. 15:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the problem either. Capitalismojo (talk) 15:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Nothing happening here, No harassment, No abuse, probably just drama.?  A m i t  ❤  15:40, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

@Bwilkins and all - WTH? "I am telling you as editor to accept what I say, otherwise as a admin I will punish you". How can a editor discuss some issue under threat? I am being forced out of that discussion on Talk:2002 Gujarat violence under threat. This is admin abuse. BTW, one admin had made edits like this to force editor to accept what he says and it became evidence on judgment day. neo (talk) 15:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Neo, you're completely misreading what Qwyrxian wrote you. Try to assume that Qwyrxian is not an admin and is just a regular editor, then go reread what was written. You can't seem to get the "admin" part out of your head when you're reading that comment. Any editor could have made that comment and any editor should inform you of that link, which is exactly what Qwyrxian did. If you continue your behavior, any editor could ask for admin intervention. This doesn't mean that Qwyrxian is threatening any admin action. They've already recused themselves from that and therefore would request assistance from other admins as any other editor (including yourself) could - like you're doing here. The difference here is that there is no admin action necessary here... yet. Jauersock^dude?/_dude. 16:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Neo, Ryulong is not an admin. What exactly do you want here?. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:15, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: Neo I don't think it is right that you can have a RfC that says to the effect: I fear this is going to happen; please comment.[217] Having said that would Qwxryian kindly explain his remarks about Neo: However, your actions throughout this page are very rapidly beginning to cross the bounds of acceptable behavior, especially since this article is under WP:Discretionary sanctions, meaning that standards are held extra high. If you are unable to politely and civilly work with others, including dealing with the possibility that the version you like may not actually be the final consensus version, then you need to find a new topic to edit under. Where is evidence of Neo's lack of civility, why bring up the issue of sanctions that have a chilling effect, a look at the talk page indicates that it is one editor who is being considered wp:TENDENTIOUS, in that his edits are raising trouble as perceived by other editors. It is one against a consensus and Qwxryian's comments asking an editor (Neo) who is forming the consensus to walk out need explanation. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you mean Dharmadhyaksha for posting this little rant? Darkness Shines (talk) 16:46, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I've just removed that, it's clearly out of line on an article talkpage (or, indeed, anywhere). Black Kite (talk) 18:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

As admin Qwyrxian has jumped in that discussion with threats, balance is heavily tilted in his side. His comment like article had (2 lines of) BLP, hence entire article deserve replacement with totally different version is stupid. On previous occasion he had supported speedy deletion of 18 old articles because copyvio was found and had indirectly threatned me with block[218]. He keep citing some problem (which can be fixed) to justify deletion or replacement of whole article and use indirect threats. I won't participate in that discussion on '2002 Gujarat violence' until he is there. If article is replaced with Darkness Shines' version, I will write my own version of article to replace it. Thanks. neo (talk) 17:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying that you won't participate in dispute resolution process if it is ever opened or discuss the changes which User:Darkness Shines was trying to make? Rahul Jain (talk) 17:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

1. Comment: I see no evidence presented of threats or improper action by Qwyrxian either as an editor or admin. I think this ANI should be closed in the absence of evidence of bad actions. Capitalismojo (talk) 17:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I for one applaud Neo. for his willingness to rewrite this highly contentious article, I am curious as to how well balanced it will be given his views on the sources I used which he says are "academic crap which make up stories long after the incident" That the academics are "conspiracy theorists" That sources such as Princeton University Press, Oxford & The Johns Hopkins are "biased academic crap" Darkness Shines (talk) 17:42, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

@Darkness Shines: And you called article which uses sources like CNN and BBC as shite. That admin Qwyrxian is jumped in with gun to take your side otherwise I would have shown your POV. You can include your contents but why remove existing contents? Why tilt balance totally in one side instead of trying to balance it? Hindus killed muslims and then went on killing each other in hindu-hindu riot, police killed hindus, muslims almost killed nobody blah blah blah. Who will believe this crap? But all is not over. If article is replaced, I will include either my version or prev version and you will have to show what is wrong. neo (talk) 18:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I asked you a question on the article talk page some time ago, how about responding to it. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

That's court judgment that it was conspiracy and media all over the world has covered it, like BBC, New York Times. Are these sources reliable? neo (talk) 19:01, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User: ThinkingYouth - Behavior

As you can see from the edit summary for http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ThinkingYouth&oldid=563401275 ThinkingYouth's behavior has not improved.

I may be totally biased, but although there is a problem there, it doesn't seem something in need of a block. TY, I'd prefer if you would pick his words a little more carefully, as edit summaries like that are generally unhelpful and don't tend to diffuse conflict or help disputes find consensus. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 20:50, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Are the last edit summaries the real concern here? He is just pissed off and taking off from wiki or at-least showing signs of doing so. Is it bothering you? Those were his own talk pages and user pages. This is not a "major" concern until the user is disrupting anything else in article space. (read again - though it might be concerning it is not so major enough to bring it to ANI).  A m i t  ❤  20:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

That was what I referred to when I say a problem, just not a very big problem, or a problem in need of a block, yes. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 21:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

The edit summaries etc are not a problem. That they are frustrated is unfortunate and perhaps someone can spare the time to talk them round (their contributions were far from all being bad - they did some good work). - Sitush (talk) 22:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Repeated reverting at Asiana Airlines Flight 214

I know I'm supposed to go to WP:AN3, but things move at a glacial pace over there and conversation over there tends to begin and end with whether a particular party should be blocked.

The issue is in regards to Kennvido (talk · contribs), who has repeatedly been removing passenger and crew numbers from Asiana Airlines Flight 214, insisting that they cannot or should not be put into the article until the FAA confirms the numbers. It has been pointed out that several reliable news sources, citing Asiana Airlines, have reported the number of passengers and crew members on the flight. On the talk page, there appears to be a consensus that their inclusion is fine; at Talk:Asiana Airlines Flight 214#Passenger and crew numbers, I count at least five editors, including myself, acceding to including these numbers, with Kennvido being the lone dissenter.

Still, Kennvido has repeatedly, violating the three-revert rule (both in spirit and intent letter and spirit [-- tariqabjotu 02:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)]), reverted this information (often provided with in-line sources) out of the article, insisting that only FAA sources are acceptable (23:02, 22:59, 22:54, 22:14, 22:04, 21:44, 21:44, 21:36, 21:30, 21:13). Can I get some more input or perhaps action on this? -- tariqabjotu 23:09, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I am done on the article. I thought Wikipedia members would want 'correct' and 'official' info on the numbers, but evidently not. Let them go with 'unofficial' info. News conference 'officially' stated numbers still fluid and NOTHING EXACT. So, do what you want with the article. I certainly hope you note the others as well as myself taking down unofficial info from the article and tell those who insisted of putting unofficial info in, that Wikipedia wants true numbers and not guessed numbers, even if four or more sources are just guessing. Look at ALL TALK regarding this article as well please. Initially, I was WITH the putting in of the 'unofficial' info, due the media sources, but thought a tragic event like this should not be guessed with as far human lives when readers could know someone on this flight. This article should have been locked for ALL. Kennvido (talk) 23:16, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think this requires immediate intervention anymore, since it's calmed down as sources get updated on this issue. However, it would be nice to get an uninvolved admin to weigh in on the handling of the dispute by Kennvido. This issue was being discussed on the Talk page otherwise in a civil debate, which he probably should have engaged in when people brought it to his attention, rather than continue to revert. Frankly, he's been around long enough to know better. Steven Walling • talk 01:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• As I've pointed out before, with 'breaking news' stories like these, WP:3RR has to be rapidly ditched if we are to avoid handing over articles to the mob who seem to fail to understand the need for even the basics of sourcing, and who insist on filling articles with trivia, disinformation and copyright violations. I'm sure I've broken WP:3RR there - probably WP:10RR - but I'll stand by what I did in the article, on the basis that if I hadn't, the article would have been a whole lot worse. I think that all things considered, we managed between us to keep the article in a reasonable state, and if tempers got frayed, it is unsurprising. I suggest we put it down to experience, and all try to remember that we are supposed to be writing an encyclopaedia - where adding something an hour late shouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but getting it right does. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:14, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I don't think immediate action is necessary anymore either. Indeed, this is what I was talking about with AN3; at AN3, this would have ended with a "No action" and we'd be done.

Anyway, yes, I realize that 3RR becomes fluid on breaking news articles (I wouldn't be surprised if I reverted more than three times on that article). But that's just a violation of the letter of the law. As I said, I believe(d) his actions violated the rule not just in letter, but also in spirit. It was obvious he was reverting the same content repeatedly, despite and even after the remarks on the talk page. -- tariqabjotu 02:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

There's a difference between reverting more than three times to combat random IPs or brand new accounts adding misinformation, and revert wars between established community members with thousands of edits. When you know that, even if you disagree, there is a consensus developing on the Talk page, it's your duty to quit reverting for a bit and discuss the matter of contention. Otherwise it's just going to stay at an impasse and we get nowhere. So it's not about obeying the letter of 3RR and sacrificing WP:V, but rather about abiding by basic principles of collaboration. For the record: I don't think a block for violating 3RR is merited here, because it would clearly be punitive and not preventative. Steven Walling • talk 02:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think there is a problem here either. I was trying, among other members, to not publish erroneous info or info that was 'thought' to be correct. I have a radio and television background for over 40 years... I know it's difficult not to try to put something out immediately to make sure everything is up to date. I realize that at times during this event, multiple sources were saying the same thing, but it is still not official. In the future, I will do better in the area of deleted unofficial info when dealing with a current event. During past current event articles, I have never run into this. Maybe a rule should be added regarding an event like this, when info changes minute to minute. Something like when three separate sources are reporting the same info, but nothing has been given out officially, the author is required to put all three sources. Just trying to make things easier for everyone here, because we that are serious here are all striving to reach the same goal. Kennvido (talk) 06:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I support Kennvido's reverts, but only before we had Reuters (and others) saying that they got the numbers straight from the airline. We didn't have to wait for an FAA or NTSB or I-don't-know-whose press release. Anyway, I think this is very minor. — Lfdder (talk) 16:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

This comes up over and over, and we need to institutionalize the speedy incubate for breaking-news articles.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:24, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Hyacinth

Hello all. I'm not sure what else I can do... so I am bringing this here. Hyacinth (talk · contribs), an administrator here on the English Wikipedia, added a new field to Template:Infobox single. I asked him, polietely, what was up with the addition, as the template is "permanently protected from editing since it is a heavily used and/or highly visible template. Substantial changes should be proposed here, if the proposal is uncontroversial or has been discussed and is supported by consensus." and I saw none of the sort on the template's talk. I made a mistake in my comment, stating that the edit was done to Template:Infobox album, instead of Template:Infobox single, but I believe I was pretty specific to make this comment unnecessary. I corrected myself, and got an unsatisfactory response. I expressed my feelings of confusion over a conversation with an admin that I thought would be pretty clean; his responses came off rather cold and angry sounding to me.

I then decided to take this discussion to the template's talk page, to which another user, Adabow (talk · contribs), agreed with me. Throughout this, Hyacinth continued to add the new field he created to hundreds of articles, ignoring the two users on the talk page expressing dismay to its addition with consensus, as required. After Hyacinth broke the template, Kww (talk · contribs) reverts to the previous revision. Prior to this, Two editors noticed these issues and let Hyacinth know about them. Hyacinth declares that "If there is no opposition, hasn't consensus been reached?" and adds the field again. And continues adding the field to more articles.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 00:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Just to clarify, "After breaking the template, Kww ..." seems to imply that I broke the template. In fact, Hyacinth broke the template twice today (both here and here), damaging every article that uses {{infobox single}}. That's a lot of articles. There's no sign in his edit history that he tests his changes at all.—Kww(talk) 00:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Corrected my statement.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 00:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Much of this mess could have been avoided if Status would have written what he intended and so shown respect for Hyacinth's time, the way Hyacinth shows respect for the intelligence and time of others (by writing precisely and concisely).

There are other places to receive and offer "I feel" messages. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The other issue here is that he refused to stop adding unsourced director information to articles after multiple demands to stop and an explicit block warning, as well as refusing to discuss the fact that he was making untested changes to widely used templates. I've blocked him for that. Since he's an admin, that needs to be discussed here as well.—Kww(talk) 01:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

It does? I hereby Support admins being blocked if their actions are detrimental to the encyclopedia or to the improvement of the encyclopedia.

Oh, also the length of such blocks should be doubled, pour encourager les autres. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Kww, I've had a similar experience, though Hyacinth did eventually back off - but dinner's calling, I'll look in a bit. --Rschen7754 01:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Horrific block by an involved administrator who had no business leaving a "block warning" in the first place. Hyacinth explained that he incorporated information in the infobox that was already present in the category information of the articles. Thus, in the cases discussed on the talk page, Hyacinth did not add information to the article. The indefinite length of the block and the false charge are additional reasons that Kww should be desyssopped. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Real life intrudes, and I will be away for about two hours. Other admins, please watch and be liberal: if Hyacinth shows any signs of actually being willing to discuss things as opposed to plowing ahead, unblock him and let him discuss them.—Kww(talk) 01:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Found it, where he made a controversial edit to Template:Did you know, and gave a less-than-satisfactory response: User talk:Hyacinth/February 5 2012 - January 6 2013#DYK. --Rschen7754 02:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Hyacinth appears to have accepted Kww's conditions, and I have unblocked.-gadfium 02:19, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Another bad block by Kww. He was involved in a content dispute and misused his block button.

Kww was also bullshitting Hyacinth, raising BLP concerns about a video director being credited. Such a credit is hardly contentious or liable to be considered liable or slanderous. Kww's block threat was improper.

But threats, bs, and bad blocks from Kww are nothing new. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

If User:Kww simply failed to realized the information was already in the article, and then wasn't removed by User:Kww, then the conflict is explained as a misunderstanding on that user's part (and my inability to inform the user). Hyacinth (talk) 02:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

What about where you used your sysop tools to make controversial edits to protected pages? --Rschen7754 02:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Or where you made changes without testing them? Or continued to add unsourced information to the articles? You keep acting like the fact that someone had already invalidly categorized the articles in question gave you the right to continue to build on that unsourced foundation.—Kww(talk) 03:14, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

You could check Breathe (Blu Cantrell song) and Satisfy You and see if I am willing to collaborate with you. Perhaps you didn't notice that I asked you what to do about those pages and similar pages, since I have received no answer. Hyacinth (talk) 03:36, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

What I primarily noticed was that you continued to make the same change over and over to multiple articles that had the same problem. Why didn't you stop? When are you going to address the question of why you made changes to the template when you knew other editors objected、and why you continued to make changes to the template without testing them?—Kww(talk) 03:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Kww makes ultimatums, and when the sense in his ultimatums is addressed, Kww changes the subject (refusing to respond to Hyacinth's discussion) and makes new demands. Hyacinth is right to stop wasting his time with further bad faith discussions. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

What is the outcome or goal desired by the users commenting above? Do you wish me to defend myself or not? Do you wish to punish me somehow or not? Do you simply wish for me to say sorry or not? Hyacinth (talk) 03:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't care whether you are sorry. I want you to understand that you cannot continue to edit widely-used templates without testing those changes first. I want you to understand that you cannot add fields to the infobox template when other editors have objected before you get a consensus to do so. I want you to understand that if an article makes an unsourced claim about a living person, you can't simply keep repeating and expanding that unsourced claim without a source. I want you to understand that all of those things are a form of misbehaviour that will likely result in you being blocked again.—Kww(talk) 03:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Or more likely, get sent to ArbCom. --Rschen7754 03:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think that the goal is for you to realize that you changed a template without having consensus on your side, and that you reinstated the changes against consensus even when another admin reverted you. So, the problem is 1) You need to better listen when somebody objects, 2) Don't use your tools to gain advantage (the users objecting were unable to edit the protected page), 3) be more careful in the future when editing highly-visible pages. I think that if you aknowledge those things, nothing else would be needed. Cheers. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 03:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Saying "why is the sky blue" is not the same as asking "can we make the sky yellow again?". To expect a user to understand that you meant the later while saying the former is unreasonable. Hyacinth (talk) 04:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The template was full protected; you edited that template without discussion. That you see no problem doing so is concerning. That you did not stop and discuss your controversial editing when approached is concerning. That you demonstrate surprise at the result of your action is not concerning, it's the path to ArbCom. Tiderolls 04:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and the same with the DYK edits you made earlier. Administrators are accountable to the community; it's not like 2004 where you can do whatever the heck you want. The community needs to be reassured that you will not misuse the tools. --Rschen7754 04:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

If you don't think that people have been specific enough, here are the questions, numbered. Please answer each one.

1. After you broke every instance of {{infobox single}} twice in one day and two separate editors had complained about it on your talk page, why did you make another change without testing it?
2. When you were aware that other editors objected to you adding the parameter, why did you continue to add it?
3. Do you understand that you aren't allowed to edit protected articles and templates without consensus?
4. After I had objected multiple times to your expanding unsourced information without providing a source, why did you continue to do so?

—Kww(talk) 04:19, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Wait a second. Two things:

1. You keep saying he "broke" the template. That sounds as if he introduced some technical error that made it appear messed up or something. If that was the case, I must have missed where somebody pointed that out. So far, I'm only seeing that he added support to a parameter that some people think shouldn't be there. That's a different thing.
2. There are different situations about editing protected pages. Templates that are long-term protected as a matter of routine merely as a security measure against vandalism are quite different from, for instance, pages that are temporarily protected against edit-wars. With edit-war protections, it is indeed true that nobody, including administrators, ought to be making substantial edits without prior consensus. With routine-protected templates, my understanding of policy is that there is no such limitation in principle. Just as the fact that a page is semiprotected against vandalism doesn't prevent an autoconfirmed user to apply WP:BOLD editing it, the fact that a page is routine-protected should not prevent those who technically have that ability from applying WP:BOLD editing it. As long as a user does so responsibly (i.e. has taken due care to avoid technical mistakes that would break pages, and has no reason to expect his edit will be against consensus), I see no problem with such edits. The only caveat is that if such a bold edit meets with opposition afterwards, the admin who has made the edit ought to be prepared to reverse it pending discussion and consensus, to avoid the effect of imbalance of power. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, he "broke" the template. It was broken both here and here. What drew my attention in the first place was that the article I was looking at had an infobox that was displaying as a mutilated pile of wikicode and I couldn't see any error in the syntax. The those two diffs are at ANI and the topic of my very first message to Hyacinth. I'll agree that there are three or four issues here. The only reason why the sourcing issue (admittedly the weakest) keeps rising is because that is the only one he will talk about. He has not addressed his template editing anywhere.—Kww(talk) 14:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

As Hyacinth has continued editing elsewhere without responding here, I've requested that they clarify the situation. I'm seeking consensus for reblock if their reponse is not timely and direct. Tiderolls 05:16, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Send to ArbCom Indefinitely blocking an admin is pointless since they can undo the block. --Rschen7754 05:20, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

My concern is that they break more templates or edit BLPs without sufficient regard for that policy. I've seen the term "emergency desysoping" before; is there a mechanism in place for that possibility? Tiderolls 05:25, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• sigh* I haven't thought through all the ramifications yet... Well, ArbCom can always vote on a motion once the case is brought to them, or initiate L1 or L2 desysopping. Now if consensus at ANI was to block him, I don't know what ArbCom would do, if they would just go ahead and desysop him, or whatever. If he did unblock himself, that would qualify for L1, and may qualify for emergency desysopping by a steward. --Rschen7754 05:30, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Page is Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures. --Rschen7754 05:32, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Emergency desysopping by a steward would be very controversial, and I doubt any stewie would be willing to do that. This is not that urgent to warrant an emergency desysop. Also, a desysop would not solve all of the issue. Desysop would only mean that 1) He won't be able to edit the protected template again; and 2) He could not unblock himself, although I doubt he'd do that. Also, this may not warrant a case unless we can prove that this behaviour has been sighted in the past. What we can do is contact an arb ASAP. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 05:36, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Noting that I do support a reblock only as a stopgap measure. --Rschen7754 05:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Admins can be blocked just like anyone else. I've both done it and had it done to me. Unblocking yourself is grounds for an emergency desysop. I'm having a very hard time persuading myself that Hyacinth understands the limitations upon himself either as an admin or an editor. Given his refusal to answer direct questions at all, much less answer them in a way that reassures me that he is no danger to templates, I'd favor a reblock followed by an Arbcom case. As long as he didn't unblock himself, there's no emergency need to desysop him.—Kww(talk) 05:42, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• I support a reblock of Hyacinth. He clearly does not understand his actions and refuses to respond to them not just here, but on other talk pages as well. He was unblocked to discuss his actions here, which he has not done.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 05:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Might I add that I realize it could be late for him and he could have gone to bed, but even if that's the case, he didn't say so, so either way, it is avoiding the discussion.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 05:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I've e-mailed Newyorkbrad requesting input. It's late and he may not see the e-mail until tomorrow but another Arb may happen along. Tiderolls 05:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

(sigh) Note that editing a protected template is essentially 1RR, because both Hyacinth and Kww violated WP:WHEEL on the redo and re-revert respectively. If past history is any guide, Arbcom will do nothing with this, but realize that you both may be desysop'ed for that. Best wishes on a sensible outcome for all involved. Jclemens (talk) 06:04, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• WP:WHEEL? I will point out that this version wasn't reverted because of any dispute over consensus or methodology. It was reverted because every article in Wikipedia that used {{infobox single}} was broken. Hyancinth had inserted syntax error in the template. Note my initial comment, made before I was aware of any dispute regarding the template contents.—Kww(talk) 06:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • WP:WHEEL references administrative actions; every administrator editing through protection makes one each time they save the work. There's no exception built in for breaking Wiki-code, but IAR might well apply, although ArbCom could always decide it did not. If I had been in your shoes, I would have fired up IRC (I don't stay logged in much anymore), and gotten a hold of another admin to do the second revert, just to avoid putting myself at risk. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 05:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Putting on my arbitrator hat (something I generally avoid doing on noticeboards) I suggest that the community consider two courses of action: whether to initiate a discussion specifically about Hyacinth being restricted from editing any protected templates or starting a request for arbitration/desysop at the appropriate page. Editing of protected pages without discussion and testing, and/or against consensus, particularly when it causes widespread damage to many articles, is usually considered a serious lapse on the part of any administrator. Hyacinth, on your part, I suggest that you consider formally undertaking to *always* initiate discussion before editing protected templates (or any other protected pages, for that matter), and to thoroughly test any proposed edits to protected templates. Risker (talk) 06:21, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Four hours ago I would've accepted such a commitment from Hyacinth. Based on their less than forthcoming responses above, and edits elsewhere during this period, I have no confidence that they have sufficient grasp of the circumstances to make such a commitment. Tiderolls 06:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Pretty much ditto. He's engaged in discussion on the addition of the parameter he was adding, and he's been willing to at least talk about why he thinks expanding unsourced information is OK, but he has not once responded to a single question about the lack of testing his changes to an extremely widely used template.—Kww(talk) 06:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• I initially felt Kww's block was a bit WP:INVOLVED, but after reading his explanation above I am satisfied by his rationale. If indeed hundreds of thousands of articles were broken, then a block, imposed ASAP, would be necessary to prevent disruption. As for Hyacinth: 1) If a page is fully protection, it must be for a good reason. Don't change it unless you have consensus. 2) For widely used templates, always test first before deploying. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 06:27, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

  Your falsehood "hundreds of thousands of articles were broken" does not change Kww's involvement and consequent misuse of the block button. Kww should have asked for a competent uninvolved administrator to help resolve the dispute rather than misusing his tools to gain advantage in a content dispute.

I am curious when your "block first" policy will be applied to the administrators responsible for the latest WMF debacle, visual editor. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:35, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I will politely ask you to back off, Kiefer. If you have any grievances with the users above and below, I'll understand, but the mater at hand is very delicate and using a battleground behaviour is not going to solve it. We are not following (or at least I'm not) any punishments against Hyacinth; we just want him to aknowledge the situation, learn from it and move on. Otherwise, he will be at ArbCom's door sooner than later, which under my perspective is highly undesirable. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 16:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm discussing the matter at hand, which is closed. Hyacinth made a mistake, acknowledged it, and

Hyacinth needs to explain himself to neither you (particularly given how your RfA failed), nor Status ("how do you have the nerve?"), nor Kww. Your triumverate is not the victorious Roman Army, to the best of my knowledge, and in any event you don't have a yoke erected on the battleground under which you can force your victims to march. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:20, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I was trying to be nice, but seems like your cluelesness is between my efforts to actually be nice and a productive discussion between the two of us. Whatever, I prefer to have a failed RfA than a block log like yours. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 18:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Motion to close. Hyacinth has already addressed the substantive issues and apologized for his mistake on the talk page of the template. The hysteria here, the bad-faith escalations of demands, the emotive posturing of Status ("the nerve", etc.), and the aggression on Hyacinth's talk page are grossly inappropriate. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:48, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Hyacinth has made no statement demonstrating understanding the inappropriate nature of their actions nor the consequences of their actions. As a matter of fact, they have avoided making any such startement after many requests. Tiderolls 08:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Hyacinth is a he, not a they.

Hyacinth has responded several times. The problem is that the hysteria and cluelessnes make it unlikely that Hyacinth will waste further time.

Hyacinth has epilepsy and has requested time to sleep, repeatedly. So back off.

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz is referring here to lack of sleep being a trigger for seizures, and thus sleep being a requirement. Hyacinth (talk) 23:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll employ the personal pronouns I choose. Hyacinth has responded several times without addressing the concerns that prompted the original report. As for hysteria, I'll present this post responding to a post of mine where I inquired if Hyacinth required more time to craft a response. Perhaps you should consider backing off. Tiderolls 09:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• I would not see anything particular in blocking of an edit warrior if it were not an indefinite block. But Kww specified a condition of unblocking, and in any case the block is removed now, hence there is no point to argue about Kww’s actions. On the other hand, if Hyacinth appears to understand poorly WP:Verifiability and WP:Consensus, then certainly there should be a motion to strip his sysop privilege, but I can’t evaluate this matter from one isolated case. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 11:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Good block - sometimes admins do have to be prevented from breaking things when they're doing so carelessly or intentionally. Removing their own block would likely have been clear grounds for desysop. Time for a little re-training it seems. Yes, we could take this to ArbComm, but it would probably be dealt with by a slap-on-the-wrist motion (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

A clarification to something that people seem confused about. Yes, he broke the template. It was broken both here and here. When those two versions of the template were active, every invocation of {{infobox single}} displayed as a block of broken wikicode. I did not become aware of the issue regarding consensus for a parameter until researching Hyacinth's contributions: what brought me to his talk page was seeing that the article I was looking at had a pile of broken wikicode instead of an infobox.—Kww(talk) 14:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, thanks for the clarification; this had not been entirely clear from the initial posting of this thread. So, what it boils down to, for me, is not that Hyacinth edited the template "without prior consensus" (that, I would say, has been a bit of a red herring in this thread). The issue is also not about "verifiability" – modifying a template so that it can support a new parameter is one thing; filling that parameter with unverified values in articles is quite another. The real issue appears to be that he showed a lack of due care, in fiddling live with a high-use template when he evidently lacked some of the technical experience in coding these kinds of conditional parameters and ought to have done it in a sandbox first. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:59, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

It would be nice if people only made one mistake at a time so that we could keep better sorted discussions. I agree that the biggest problem is that he makes untested changes to high-volume templates and refuses to discuss that, which would normally indicate that he doesn't see it as a problem. As for "without prior consensus", it's a little stronger than that: he made the changes after he had received objections from multiple editors and support from none. The sourcing issue is minor in comparison to those two.—Kww(talk) 15:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no need to discuss his changes. He made an error, which has been fixed. (Compare the policy on deleting others messages on your talk page, which implies that you have read the message.) Hyacinth doesn't need to waste his time addressing Status's questions "why Hyacinth has the nerve..." or your false accusations that he's adding unsourced content by adding a field in an infobox. The indefinite block may be your worst block so far.

In the future, you could just use the coding in my regular tunings infobox, which allows optional sections and items. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

You neglect to discuss that after he broke the template twice in one day, he made another substantial change to the template, apparently without testing. It appears to be recklessness and willful disregard, not a mistake. He's been asked multiple times where he tested that change, and has made no reply to that issue whatsoever. He is required to answer questions about his use of tools.—Kww(talk) 18:27, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I apologize for my actions. I should have tested my edits to the template, even the last one which fixed it. I should have started a discussion before adding the parameter to the template, as it was protected. Hyacinth (talk) 23:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm satisfied with this, personally, and see no need to bring it to ArbCom. --Rschen7754 23:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Because I follow the page of one of the admins involved (we work on the same wiki projects often) I found myself reading over this bit of wikidrama and just wanted to make an observation that I find a bit troubling. I don't edit music articles pretty much ever but I get why you guys were so concerned about Hyacinth's originally disputed edits given how it seems you set up that template to function. I totally understand all of that. My concern is that when Hyacinth backed off the edits and started to try to propose his rationale for why he thought they were good edits, things got downright hostile on the template page real quick. It wasn't all of the involved editors but there was a definite gang up on the guy feeling to it with a slew of ad hominen attacks (and some use of words that aren't actually words that make me want to mock people, but that's not the issue here). I get that folks wanted to make sure Hyacinth recognized why his original round of edits were problematic; that's totally cool. It's just that... well for us non-admin types it was a little disheartening to see people going ballistic in quite that way. I won't be following the rest of this conversation as I have no actual stake in it. I just wanted to let you know that meeting problem edits with incivility looked, frankly, really piss poor and it made it hard to sort out what was going on. I hope you guys get it all worked out. Millahnna (talk) 05:14, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Risker has pointed out that one option here is to restrict Hyacinth from editing protected pages for a period of time.  My other comment is that the indefinite block seems excessive.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Harassment over Sri Chinmoy article

The users Richard Reinhardt (talk · contribs) and Bipula Langosh (talk · contribs) have both been removing the Controversy section, or large portions of it, from the Sri Chinmoy article without reason. Another user reverted Richard Reinhardt's edits, and I reverted Bipula Langosh's edits. After doing this, Bipula Langosh created my user page (since deleted) with a paragraph berating me for restoring the removed content. Richard Reinhardt then posted a borderline personal attack to my talk page (diff) also regarding the same content. Also, given the similarities of the edits and the newness of the account, it wouldn't surprise me if Bipula Langosh were a sock of Richard Reinhardt. Can this be looked into? --71.199.125.210 (talk) 15:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Update: Bipula Langosh has posted a message to his talk page (diff) about this issue. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 03:38, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

So atleast now you could take it to her talk page and resolve the issue? Nothing left for admins to resolve here I guess.  A m i t  ❤  21:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Admin Qwyrxian

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Admin User:Qwyrxian declined my this edit request to fully protected article 2002 Gujarat violence. He made edit to the article as per another user's request and tagged article as 'disputed'. He acknowledge dispute and now he claim that he is commenting as uninvolved non-admin user in the dispute. Then he removed my Rfc tag in this thread claiming non-neutral drafting and he threatned me with something like topic ban in his admin capacity. I request you to tell admin Qwyrxian to stay away from the dispute. neo (talk) 14:14, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Your links seem to show that he was indeed acting as a thoughtful admin. What is the incident that you are bringing to everyone's attention? What's your point? Capitalismojo (talk) 14:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Looks like he did everything right there; there was no way he was going to revert a protected page to your preferred version (see this page for details) and your RfC was not neutrally phrased so it got removed. No problems with that. Black Kite (talk) 14:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I have let the very naughty admin know that you have dragged him here, can you take the time to it it yourself in future. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

He is switching between admin and 'uninvolved user'. Here he claims he is commenting as non-admin. Then he showed me this admin power. Is he commenting as admin or non-admin user? neo (talk) 14:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

That was not an admin action. Any editor could (and should) point you to that page to make you aware of it. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:58, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

What about this language? Pretending to be uninvolved non-admin and then showing reason/policy how admin can ban me is unacceptable. neo (talk) 15:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Don't see an issue with anything said there. You were told (by an editor) to behave, or else he'd have to strap on the guns and act like an admin. The smart person listens to the editor (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:16, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Agreed. This also doesn't mean that Qwyrxian is threatening any admin action against you. However, since you're being referred to that page, it's probably a good idea to read it and start following it so that another admin doesn't need to, either. Jauersock^dude?/_dude. 15:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the problem either. Capitalismojo (talk) 15:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Nothing happening here, No harassment, No abuse, probably just drama.?  A m i t  ❤  15:40, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

@Bwilkins and all - WTH? "I am telling you as editor to accept what I say, otherwise as a admin I will punish you". How can a editor discuss some issue under threat? I am being forced out of that discussion on Talk:2002 Gujarat violence under threat. This is admin abuse. BTW, one admin had made edits like this to force editor to accept what he says and it became evidence on judgment day. neo (talk) 15:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Neo, you're completely misreading what Qwyrxian wrote you. Try to assume that Qwyrxian is not an admin and is just a regular editor, then go reread what was written. You can't seem to get the "admin" part out of your head when you're reading that comment. Any editor could have made that comment and any editor should inform you of that link, which is exactly what Qwyrxian did. If you continue your behavior, any editor could ask for admin intervention. This doesn't mean that Qwyrxian is threatening any admin action. They've already recused themselves from that and therefore would request assistance from other admins as any other editor (including yourself) could - like you're doing here. The difference here is that there is no admin action necessary here... yet. Jauersock^dude?/_dude. 16:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Neo, Ryulong is not an admin. What exactly do you want here?. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:15, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: Neo I don't think it is right that you can have a RfC that says to the effect: I fear this is going to happen; please comment.[219] Having said that would Qwxryian kindly explain his remarks about Neo: However, your actions throughout this page are very rapidly beginning to cross the bounds of acceptable behavior, especially since this article is under WP:Discretionary sanctions, meaning that standards are held extra high. If you are unable to politely and civilly work with others, including dealing with the possibility that the version you like may not actually be the final consensus version, then you need to find a new topic to edit under. Where is evidence of Neo's lack of civility, why bring up the issue of sanctions that have a chilling effect, a look at the talk page indicates that it is one editor who is being considered wp:TENDENTIOUS, in that his edits are raising trouble as perceived by other editors. It is one against a consensus and Qwxryian's comments asking an editor (Neo) who is forming the consensus to walk out need explanation. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you mean Dharmadhyaksha for posting this little rant? Darkness Shines (talk) 16:46, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I've just removed that, it's clearly out of line on an article talkpage (or, indeed, anywhere). Black Kite (talk) 18:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

As admin Qwyrxian has jumped in that discussion with threats, balance is heavily tilted in his side. His comment like article had (2 lines of) BLP, hence entire article deserve replacement with totally different version is stupid. On previous occasion he had supported speedy deletion of 18 old articles because copyvio was found and had indirectly threatned me with block[220]. He keep citing some problem (which can be fixed) to justify deletion or replacement of whole article and use indirect threats. I won't participate in that discussion on '2002 Gujarat violence' until he is there. If article is replaced with Darkness Shines' version, I will write my own version of article to replace it. Thanks. neo (talk) 17:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying that you won't participate in dispute resolution process if it is ever opened or discuss the changes which User:Darkness Shines was trying to make? Rahul Jain (talk) 17:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

1. Comment: I see no evidence presented of threats or improper action by Qwyrxian either as an editor or admin. I think this ANI should be closed in the absence of evidence of bad actions. Capitalismojo (talk) 17:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I for one applaud Neo. for his willingness to rewrite this highly contentious article, I am curious as to how well balanced it will be given his views on the sources I used which he says are "academic crap which make up stories long after the incident" That the academics are "conspiracy theorists" That sources such as Princeton University Press, Oxford & The Johns Hopkins are "biased academic crap" Darkness Shines (talk) 17:42, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

@Darkness Shines: And you called article which uses sources like CNN and BBC as shite. That admin Qwyrxian is jumped in with gun to take your side otherwise I would have shown your POV. You can include your contents but why remove existing contents? Why tilt balance totally in one side instead of trying to balance it? Hindus killed muslims and then went on killing each other in hindu-hindu riot, police killed hindus, muslims almost killed nobody blah blah blah. Who will believe this crap? But all is not over. If article is replaced, I will include either my version or prev version and you will have to show what is wrong. neo (talk) 18:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I asked you a question on the article talk page some time ago, how about responding to it. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

That's court judgment that it was conspiracy and media all over the world has covered it, like BBC, New York Times. Are these sources reliable? neo (talk) 19:01, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User: ThinkingYouth - Behavior

As you can see from the edit summary for http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ThinkingYouth&oldid=563401275 ThinkingYouth's behavior has not improved.

I may be totally biased, but although there is a problem there, it doesn't seem something in need of a block. TY, I'd prefer if you would pick his words a little more carefully, as edit summaries like that are generally unhelpful and don't tend to diffuse conflict or help disputes find consensus. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 20:50, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Are the last edit summaries the real concern here? He is just pissed off and taking off from wiki or at-least showing signs of doing so. Is it bothering you? Those were his own talk pages and user pages. This is not a "major" concern until the user is disrupting anything else in article space. (read again - though it might be concerning it is not so major enough to bring it to ANI).  A m i t  ❤  20:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

That was what I referred to when I say a problem, just not a very big problem, or a problem in need of a block, yes. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 21:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

The edit summaries etc are not a problem. That they are frustrated is unfortunate and perhaps someone can spare the time to talk them round (their contributions were far from all being bad - they did some good work). - Sitush (talk) 22:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz and Margo Feiden Galleries

Dear Administrators,

When Wikipedia changed its rules to allow an individual to edit content about him or herself, I finally allowed a friend, a professional technical writer, Robyn42, to contribute content to Wikipedia based on my career as a gallerist, an author, and a member of New York's professional theater community. Recently another contributor, Chicago57th, has also contributed content about me with my approval.

Suddenly a man identified as Hullaballoo Wolfowitz embarked on a strange (the kindest adjective I can use) campaign against me and my gallery, unilaterally deleting wholesale from Wikipedia content that mentions my name or my gallery. Further, of his many deletions Mr. Wolfowitz did not present even one for discussion within the Wikipedia community. Instead, Mr. Wolfowitz sought to justify his behavior not by offering good reasons that stand up to scrutiny but, instead, resorting to spurious attacks on my character and conduct.

In the article on Joel-Peter Witkin, Mr. Wolfowitz deleted my gallery’s exhibition for Witkin, saying that the text was “unsourced” and “promotional.”[221] As anyone can see, the "Chronology" section of Joel-Peter Witkin's article contains more than 100 similar listings for exhibitions of Witkin’s work. [222] Fewer than 10 of those exhibitions are sourced. Surely, each listing is equally “promotional” in mentioning the venue for the exhibition cited. What is the rationale for deleting only one, the exhibition at my gallery? If Mr. Wolfowitz were to delete each of the similarly unsourced exhibitions from this section, Joel-Peter Witkin would be left with fewer than 10 exhibitions, not the 100 exhibitions that remain in "Chronology" now.

In the article on Raphael Soyer, Mr. Wolfowitz again deleted my gallery from a list of galleries and museums where Soyer exhibited. [223] Mr. Wolfowitz also deleted my gallery’s highly-regarded, scholarly catalogue, “Raphael Soyer: Looking Over the Artist’s Shoulder.” [224] My gallery’s Soyer catalogue is in the collections of museums, libraries, and galleries all over the world. Yet Mr. Wolfowitz deleted it, saying (amazingly) that it was “off-topic.”

In the article on Kurt Vonnegut, Mr. Wolfowitz deleted Vonnegut’s exhibition at my gallery in the section “Art Career.” Our first contribution was a single sentence: “He exhibited at the Margo Feiden Galleries Ltd. in New York." Mr. Wolfowitz deleted this material, saying it was “unsourced” and “promotional." [225] We put it back, sourcing it with two university library archives that include the material. Mr. Wolfowitz again deleted our contribution saying that it was “spammery” and objecting to the library archives as sources. [226] We again posted our contribution, this time with additional material sourced with three newspapers. Mr. Wolfowitz deleted that as well. [227] Had all this behavior been a good-faith effort on Mr. Wolfowitz’s part, he could have used the Talk page to ask for even more than our five sources. The fact is that Vonnegut was represented by my gallery, which curated his art and gave him a one-man exhibition in 1980. Mr. Wolfowitz’s repeated deletion of this well-sourced exhibition makes it clear that his concerns are not as he states them to be. It is also clear that he is not concerned with the opinions of the Wikipedia community but is determined to delete my name and any reference to my gallery for reasons best known to himself.

In the article on the film The Misfits, Mr. Wolfowitz deleted the depiction of the film’s actors discussing the script with playwright Arthur Miller. [228] This "backstage moment" was drawn by the artist Al Hirschfeld. The production aspect of this film is a significant topic in American film history, and this image serves the article by being the unique visual documentation of it.

In another article, Mr. Wolfowitiz again deleted an Al Hirschfeld image and the accompanying text—this time for the celebrated canine actor Skippy. Mr. Wolfowitz described our content as “particularly outlandish promotional editing.” [229] However, this is a case where the subject’s portrayal by Al Hirschfeld, the chronicler of twentieth-century performing arts, truly contributes something substantial about the fame achieved by the article's subject, a dog. If Skippy, a dog, deserves his own article, should not that article include Skippy's rare distinction among animal actors of being portrayed by Al Hirschfeld? Doesn’t such a rare distinction at the very least merit discussion before the content is deleted?

Mr. Wolfowitz applied the same heavy hand in his deletion of Hirschfeld images, this time from the article on actress Dolly Haas. [230] Dolly Haas was married to Al Hirschfeld for 50 years. Two of the drawings Mr. Wolfowitz deleted served the article by documenting Haas’ American stage career, a topic that had been completely absent before we made our contribution.

Now to Valerie Solanas, where Mr. Wolfowitz has displayed a particular animus against me in his edits and comments. To begin with, he deleted the widely-published accounts of my meeting with Valerie Solanas on the day she shot Andy Warhol. [231] Once more, Mr. Wolfowitz made these deletions without any discussion on the matter. In point of fact, when another editor attempted to revert Mr. Wolfowitz’s edit and initiate a discussion within the Wikipedia community, Mr. Wolfowitz went into the article and deleted our contribution again, before the discussion had run its course. [232] What Mr. Wolfowitz called a “self-sourced account” was in fact sourced with three major articles and interviews: The New York Times, Interview Magazine, and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. The controversy is there for you to read in all its detail on the Talk Page Talk:Valerie Solanas.

In summation, one test of Mr. Wolfowitz’s behavior is this: what if every editor behaved as he did—deleting contributions without discussion, removing important exhibitions and catalogues of artists’ work, again without discussion, and removing objectively sourced and documented accounts with the claim that they are “self-sourced?” In short, if everybody behaved as Mr. Wolfowitz did, Wikipedia could not function at all. I will also add that Mr. Wolfowitz used inappropriate language throughout.

These are but a few examples of Mr. Wolfowitz’s behavior, by which he has gone through Wikipedia deleting my name and that of my gallery over and over and over again, almost everywhere that they appeared. In light of this pattern of behavior by which Mr. Wolfowitz is attempting to erase me, I am requesting that he be blocked from editing material relating to me or to my work.

Respectfully, Margo Feiden Factor-ies (talk) 06:53, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I went ahead and notified Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk · contribs) regarding this discussion. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 07:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Factor-ies (talk · contribs) followed shortly after: [233]. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 07:04, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I have not reviewed any of the content, and so I am making no comment on it. My general opinion: this is one example of why no one should edit articles about themselves or their corporations, or add/delete material about their activities or their corporations' activities in any articles (Snowden and the Booz Allen editors are a recent example). If a person's information is notable enough to be included, a third party will likely add it, and that's the way it should be. Taroaldo ✉ 07:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Granted, I have not looked thoroughly into Hullaballoo Wolfowitz's edits mentioned here, but so far, I am not seeing any problem with HW's edits. Unsourced edits are being added to these articles and HW is merely removing them. I suggest to the OP that if they want to add content to these articles, they should source these edits to third-party reliable sources. The fact that there is other content that is not properly sourced is not a reason to add more unsourced content. See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 08:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Please extend every courtesy to another scion of the Wolfowitz clan. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not sure Wikipedia ever specifically "allowed" someone to edit articles about themselves - even Jimbo's phrase was that they should only ever propose changes on the article talkpage. I usually go so far as to say that they can remove WP:BLP-infringing content if it's not properly sourced. Major changes should, ethically, never be done by the subject - period. No comment on HW's specific actions here, yet (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• There's a lot to digest here, but after a broad overview I'd say Wolfowitz acted appropriately and even commendably. Our policies relating to conflict-of-interest editing are, to be fair, somewhat complex. The reason it isn't utterly prohibited is because article subjects need the right to remove false information about themselves from articles. Also, some very broad types of COI are almost impossible to avoid: if neither believers or non-believers could edite articles on religion, there wouldn't be many editors left. Beyond that though, most other COI editing, and in particular spam and self-promotion, IS prohibited. To quote WP:COI, "You should not create or edit articles about yourself, your family or your close friends. If you or they are notable enough, someone else will create the article. You should also avoid writing about yourself or people you know in articles on other topics." Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• First, WP does allow people to edit articles about themselves and their interests, whether avocational or commercial. It very strongly and rightly recommends otherwise in the case of a strong commercial connection, but there has never been consensus to prohibit; although Jimbo is indeed one of those who advocates prohibition, he is not dictator, and his opinion should not be quoted as policy. I have looked at some of the edits. I'm pretty drastic myself at removing promotional links & mentions , but at least some of the items mentioned seem to at least need explanation: (1) For the Witkin show, I do not see the basis of rejecting this particular one, and I do not think it would have been removed had another editor added it. (2) The Vonnegut material was indeed documented from the first. The published Lily Library and University of Delaware archives descriptions are appropriate sources for plain description. In the past, many such descriptions were unpublished and cryptic, but the availability on the web has made these widely available (and used in WP), However (3) For the Soyer catalog, I do not see it in WorldCat. (4)For the Hirschfeld drawings, they were added as NFCC,and the criteria for their relevance is rather strict (in my opinion, stricter than it should be but that's another matter) Hirschfeld made a great many drawings, and illustrated large parts of the cultural world of his period in ways that add a justly famous degree of understanding, so the decision of which ones to add is exactly the sort of thing that is most subject to COI and is best done by a uninvolved editor. I note that the captions for them included, unnecessarily, the name of the gallery--including that is a very clear indication of promotional use, and would certainly lead any unbiased person to be exceedingly skeptical about their insertion. This illustrates the problem: a promotional editor may make good judgement, or not,and must be judged by the results. Had MF used better judgement in writing the captions, and judging what images to include, the effort would have been more successful.

DGG ( talk ) 17:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I don't see where the reporting party tried to work this out with HW before coming here. I would also note that COI editing is not against policy, no matter how unwise it is. Each edit is supposed to be based on its own merits. I suggest closing and taking any concerns to the actual editor on the article talk page. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• It is strongly discouraged for very good reasons. The number of reasonable COI editors I've encountered I can probably count on one hand. Most are blatant COIs and end up getting blocked, or everything they do is reverted because it does not fit within the scope of the project. Taroaldo ✉ 20:08, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Agreed. There is such a thing as a COI editor who makes positive contributions, but far more often they try to sell something, push an agenda, or just "get their name out there". The current case appears to be a mixture of all three. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Hullaballoo raised this at ANI a month ago [234].
• I agree with you, DGG. Many good editors edit about their avocational interests. Bearian (talk) 20:29, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dear A Quest For Knowledge: Thank you for your comments on this, and your even-handed approach. Speaking to the subject of sourcing, of course it is very important. However, Mr. Wolfowitz was not consistent in his treatment of what he terms “unsourced” material. If being unsourced is sufficient grounds for immediate deletion, why did Mr. Wolfowitz not delete all the other unsourced material in the same article? Mr. Wolfowitz specifically targeted material about me, using a rationale that he did not apply to any other equivalent material. However, Mr. Wolfowitz removed material that he termed “unsourced” when solid sourcing was clearly there for all to see. Factor-ies (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dear DGG: Thank you very much for your contribution to this discussion. The Soyer catalogue we published can be sourced, for example [235] [236] If unsourced material was Mr. Wolfowitz’s objection, I would have been happy to add a source. I am fairly new to Wikipedia and was guided by the other material on that page. As to the Hirschfeld drawings, which included the gallery’s name in captioning, it is commonplace in the art world, in fact the industry standard, that when art is reproduced its location is noted. Would you not, in captioning a photograph of the Statue of Libery, say that it stands in New York Harbor? It is important to know where the original art is located, and examples of this practice can be found within Wikipedia on the pages for Mark Rothko, Isamu Noguchi, Henri Matisse, and Paul Klee, and many others. If including my name in the caption was what bothered Mr. Wolfowitz, he could have, and should have, notified me. We could then have opened that discussion to the Wikipedia community. Thank you again for your discussion here. Factor-ies (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Ethically, you should have known not to add your name, period. No discussion needed. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dear Dennis Brown: Thank you for joining in on this discussion. You are correct that I did not try to work these problems out with Mr. Wolfowitz before reporting them here. After reading your comments, I think that perhaps I should have done so. I did know that it was an option, but Mr. Wolfowitz himself never engaged with me, although he clearly had reason to. He could have, and should have, asked for sourcing--although sourcing was already provided for content that he deleted as uncourced. Such was his demeanor that I felt I needed to go to the Wikipedia community. Factor-ies (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussing directly with the other edit is not just an option, it's a requirement. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dear Taraoldo: Thank you for your interest in these issues. I contributed content that I felt would stand on its own merit in an encyclopedic reference. Your experience with other COI editors is clearly unfortunate, but I feel certain that you would agree that my contributions should be judged on their own merits. Interested parties can help build Wikipedia and indeed, very often, interested parties have more knowlege and more accurate information than anyone else. On the other hand, third parties knowledgeable enough to write on a specific subject will almost never be purely unbiased. Let me ask you this: if Madame Curie suddenly came back to life, would you prohibit her from including her own biographical details in Wikipedia, or adding to articles on radioactivity? Of course not. The point is, if I am not able to add my gallery’s exhibition for Joel-Peter Witkin, and Joel-Peter Witkin cannot add it himself, would I have to rely on somebody that saw the exhibition in the Spring of 1970, remembered it, and cared enough to add it to Wikipedia? That scenario seems unlikely, and yet many people born after that exhibition should have the right to find that information on Wikipedia. Factor-ies (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

If nobody "cared enough to add it", then it likely was not at all worthy to be added by anybody (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

If such an event happened, I would respectfully discourage her, or any other historical figure, from adding to their own articles. Of course no one has greater insights into an individual's life than the person in question, but this project is an encyclopedia, not a collection of autobiographies and personal anecdotes. This means someone else should be capable of finding and adding the information if it is truly pertinent. If someone else doesn't add it, that should never green-light a COI edit. Taroaldo ✉ 04:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• I for one am totally supportive of Margo's position. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz is an extremely disruptive editor. One small glance at his "contribution" history shows that his edits are almost exclusively deleting huge chunks from every article he stumbles upon. This is, in my opinion, the complete opposite of Wikipedia's philosophy. In fact his talk page is simply littered with messages from puzzled editors complaining about his behavior or even asking that he stop threaten them! I myself have been recently dealing with Mr. Wolfowitz on several articles and even reported him due to edit warring on his part. I was unfortunately distracted by my personal life and the complaint was filed away, but he seems to be at it again and I may have to report him again as he refuses to engage in conversation and seems to simply believe his opinion to be fact. Wikipedia is collaborative. Wikipedia editors should strive to make each article better to the best of their abilities, reworking passages they find are awkward, finding sources when there are none, etc..., not deleting half an article simply because you do not agree with its content. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Happy Evil Dude (talk) 22:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it has in fact been proposed, and rejected, that illustrations as used in WP carry credit lines. The consensus view is that this belongs on the image description page , which is linked, and satisfy attribution requirements. This applies even to artists and other creators and would apply even more to the mere owner or supplier of the image. DGG ( talk ) 00:20, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• The real problem here is that Factor-ies had not received much guidance on what is acceptable editing. (She has 56 edits. Five-six!) I note that the particular edits and reversions (above) were done 6 months ago. I've posted a welcome message & further advice on her talk page. Perhaps when she reviews WP policies, guidelines, 5P, etc. she'll understand what's going on. Let's be careful not to WP:BITE. – S. Rich (talk) 01:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• While Factor-ies may be a new account, Feiden is likely not a new editor,and there is strong evidence of sockpuppetry. See my original ANI report here [237]. There is at least one Feiden edit as old as 2008. What underlies all this seems to be a long-running dispute over control of Hirschfeld's work, which at one point led to Hirschfeld suing Feiden, [238], and it's one facet of this that uploads of images by Feiden and related accounts pretty consistently failed to credit the origimal publication but listed the commercial gallery which sells them instead. Editors here should give Feiden's claims a more skeptical look. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:32, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Whatever Margo's experience (or alter-ego) is doesn't matter as far as this discussion goes. Her complaint is not well founded and I recommend that it be closed. – S. Rich (talk) 01:50, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Some of her complaint is not well founded, but at some much earlier point the underlying issues should have been discussed. The paragraph HW just contributed sheds more light on the matter for me than any previous discussion., and I wish they had said it a good deal earlier. The earlier AfD discussion HW mentions above is very relevant, and should have been followed up further. DGG ( talk ) 04:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator observation) (like others in this thread): Why does a Google search for news about "Margo Feiden" result in just one hit? Shouldn't a notable business have at least a few more non-industry-specific "newspaper" mentions? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 13:15, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

To be fair, you need to do a Google News Archive search. Google News searches default to showing only results from the last month/30 days. Google's "Any Time" button is rather misleading. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 14:27, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Date range yields some (but not all) results, too. Weird. Thanks. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 22:42, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dear All,

In the five sentences Hullaballoo Wolfowitz writes above, he manages to have at least an equal number of factual errors as well as disingenuous conclusions. When he deleted my contribution to the Valerie Solanas article, Mr. Wolfowitz ferreted out an assistant editor’s offhand response to an online comment. And, yet, Mr. Wolfowitz seems to have missed both the correction that is noted at the top of the May 17, 2000 New York Times article he links to, and, further, Al Hirschfeld’s statement, published in the NY Times on October 14, 2000 in which Hirschfeld lauds my integrity. [239]

The New York Times ran a sensational headline, “Al Hirschfeld Sues Gallery, Asserting it Cheated Him," and then retracted it, writing “[Hirschfeld] did not accuse Ms. Feiden of cheating him in the buying and selling of his work.” The Times article sensationalized the text just as they sensationalized the headline. The article was filled with errors of fact (even in the retraction), just as their headline was an error.

First, the dispute began not over the “control of Hirschfeld’s work,” but on the single issue of the appropriateness of a curator picked for a Hirschfeld museum exhibition. A part-time worker in my gallery, who was thrown out for stealing and serial lying, got himself hired by a museum to curate a Hirschfeld exhibition, using his experience at my gallery as his credentials to curate.

For now, the subject of this letter is the behavior of Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. Starting out with his own conclusion, Mr. Wolfowitz used blinders to extract only what he wanted--mixing and matching whatever supports that conclusion, and leaving unsaid all material that is exculpatory.

Referring back to his comment above, Mr. Wolfowitz writes that the artist and I had a “long-running dispute.” In fact Hirschfeld dropped the suit very quickly. And during this disagreement there was never a disruption in our working relationship. The fact is that Hirschfeld and I continued to work together, accomplishing commissioned drawings, limited-edition prints, reproductions of his art in books and magazines, etc. etc. etc.

Mr. Wolfowitz, talking as if he were an expert, accuses me, saying that I “failed to credit the original publication[s]” when contributing Hirschfeld images to Wikipedia. Instead, Mr. Wolfowitz should have asked me this properly on a Talk page. Had he done so, he would have learned that if I did not list a publication it was because the work was commissioned by me or by my gallery and did not run in a newspaper or a periodical. In some cases, the work was commissioned by clients, and when that is the case, I said so in the caption and/or in the text.

In an earlier letter, I said that I was fairly new to Wikipedia. In his five sentences above, Mr. Wolfowitz attacked that statement, saying that “there is at least one Feiden edit as old as 2008.“ Because Mr. Wolfowitz does not provide the user name that made the edit he credits me with, nor does he provide the subject matter or the article that the edit concerned, I cannot speak to this accusation. I am now aware only of a few contributions made at the end of 2011, followed by contributions made in October 2012. Compared with other editors, I am still green when it comes to Wikipedia (although I’m ripening very fast!).

Within his five sentences, Mr. Wolfowitz accuses me of sockpuppetry--essentially of the “use of multiple Wikipedia user accounts...to deceive or mislead other editors”. But I never made any attempt to disguise the fact that I and the two people contributing on my behalf have their own user names. They have their own user names because they have their own user names. It is that simple.

I have been in business from the time I was 16 years old. That was 50 years ago, and my record remains spotless.

As I said in my AN/I report, it seems that Mr. Wolfowitz’s actions--that is, unilaterally deleting wholesale from Wikipedia content that mentions my name or my gallery--was embarked upon for his own personal reasons. Mr. Wolfowitz constantly impugns my integrity, but gave no basis for doing so. Now I see that Mr. Wolfowitz’s behavior was retributory for a perceived harm that he believed was done by me to Al Hirschfeld. I was Hirschfeld’s gallerist and agent when Hirschfeld was in his 60's, his 70's, his 80's, and his 90's. This dispute occurred when Hirschfeld was almost 100 years old.As the world knows, Al Hirschfeld and I had a relationship that lasted for all those decades and, in almost 40 years working together we had one single fight. What marriage can boast a comparable record?

Respectfully, Margo Feiden Factor-ies (talk) 09:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Enough is enough. Ms Feiden's last post is extraordinarily abusive, and contains grossly defamatory material concerning an identifiable living person of some prominence. Ms Feiden's comments make clear she is still carrying on the same external dispute that underlies the Hirschfeld lawsuit and other matters. It is clearly not appropriate for Ms Feiden and her associates/employees/friends/multiple accounts/or whatever to edit Wikipedia to promote their position. It is one thing to rail against the sins (sometimes real, I suppose, but mostly imagined) of The Big Bad Wolfowitz, but quite another to accuse an identifiable living person of criminal behavior - especially since the person involved is the "official archivist" of the Al Hirschfeld Foundation (Hirschfeld's widow is its President) and is prominently involved in its work, curating, for example, a Hirschfeld exhibit for the Library of Congress. As for the nature of the underlying dispute, Al Hirschfeld himself said, after the settlement, that his lawsuit was brought "in order to regain what I considered to be proper control over my artworks", and rejected some rather self-serving comments by Feiden in the Times piece she cites above [240]. We can bore the Wikipedia community to tears with the ground-level details of these arguments (and probably have to some degree); Ms. Feiden should be wary of the Streisand effect if this continues. Ms Feiden clearly dislikes me (I suspect more because I debunked a cherished myth in her (auto)biography at AFC [241] than for this particular dispute). Ms Feiden's campaign runs afoul of the principles set out by the Arbitration Committee in the recent Sexology case, although perhaps more subtly than the conduct involved there, and her gratuitous allegations of criminality against an identifiable person are wholly unacceptable. It is time for an uninvolved admin to close and hat this discussion with a suitable admonishment for Ms Feiden. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 02:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Wolfowitz,

I made the choice to be careful in not identifying the person about whom I wrote in my last post. I identified the person merely as a “worker.” In 44 years at the gallery, I have had a hundred workers. On the other hand, you have made it abundantly clear whom you think I am talking about. I will not confirm whether your identification of that person is correct or not, but I point out that while I behaved with discretion, you clearly did not. Although why you would get involved at all in this is very strange being that your knowledge of the situation is not firsthand.

I do not want to carry this argument any further on Wikipedia, as clearly this is a personal issue for you and is not Wikipedia-driven. You know how to reach me, and if you wish to further engage you may do so.

Now I am going to take the advice that members of the Wikipedia community have offered me: I shall propose my desired contributions on the appropriate Talk pages and wait for the community to respond before I add them to their respective articles. I shall be guided thus.

Sincerely,

Margo Feiden

Factor-ies (talk) 00:35, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

This is plainly not an honest response. Ms Feiden pretends she did not identify the person she, without any substantiation, accused of criminal behavior. However, anyone who reads the first New York Times article I cited (before she posted her accusation) will know exactly who she has accused. This is squalid and uncivilized behavior. Ms Feiden's ongoing string of innuendo, whether directed at me or others, is clearly not consistent with good faith editing or, for that matter, with simple human decency. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 02:33, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I note the instructions for this page say "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page." Perhaps newbie Factor-ies did not look carefully before starting the discussion above. But it seems that Hullaballoo is initiating/pursuing a new/different topic. E.g., Hullaballo has a complaint about the fact that this ANI was opened and the various statement that were made by Factor-ies. If so, then {{NOTHERE}} should be posted above to allow discussion on Factor-ies UP. In other words, why can't this thread be closed? I agree with Hullaballoo -- enough is enough. – S. Rich (talk) 02:51, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth, I believe Ms Feiden's gross and scurrilous violation of WP:BLP in her July 7 post here deserves a strong response before this thread is closed. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 02:57, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I think Feiden (or whoever is behind the Factor-ies account) is aware their conduct has been less than exemplary and that their original complaint is largely baseless and has been told so by several people. But I don't see any cause to further twist the knife. If Factor-ies and friends / other accounts agree to not insert mentions of Feiden and her gallery and instead bring it up on talk pages if there are any absolutely vital related edits to be made, then there's no need for further action. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 03:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Copyvio issues from Vlad4

Today, I found that Vlad4 (talk · contribs) had copied and pasted some episode summaries onto List of The Venture Bros. episodes. I know this for certain because one of the summaries he pasted has a misspelling of one of the characters' names. I then perused some of his edits to find that this is fairly common for him. His talk page is full of bot notices that have gone unheeded, showing that his problematic editing practices have gone unnoticed for quite some time. And he's made all of 3 edits to any of the talk spaces in his 5 years on the project. His tendency to plagiarize and WP:COPYVIO is something that needs to be addressed immediately.—Ryulong (琉竜) 22:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

There may be hundreds of missed copyvios in this guy's contributions, why has no one taken note of it?—Ryulong (琉竜) 11:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Vlad4 clearly needs to stop this (and thanks Ryulong for working on this). Vlad is not here every day, so not coming to ANI right now is somewhat understandable. I will request him to stop editing, and join this discussion so we can find out what needs cleanup and deleteion. I support a block if that doesn't happen to prevent further damage. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:25, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

  Vlad4 has not yet responded.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:08, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

  Thanks for keeping this on the radar, Ryulong. He hasn't edited yet either, so I'm unsure what, if any action should be suitable. There is some merit in an indefinite block, to ensure we can clear this up before anything else happens, but on the other hand, the stigma that a block unfortunately carries gives me pause. I guess we can wait a little longer. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:34, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

  "Indefinite" does not mean "infinite". It is surely within the blocking policy to block this editor as a preventative measure against further copyright violations.—Ryulong (琉竜) 19:54, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

  I understand what you mean, but I suggest holding off blocking before a reasonable chance is given to react. Although I have been checking his talkpage and contributions a few times a day, if this slips off the radar it would be a very bad thing. For now, keeping it on ANI prevents that though. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

  But if this conversation ceases at any point then the whole thread will be archived.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:31, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• Opened Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Vlad4. MER-C 04:44, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Coasterlover1994 undermined my gayness by posting to Wikipedia:UAA

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Coasterlover1994 posted this and stated my stupidity:

Violation of the username policy as an offensive username. Unless user identifies as such, "gay" is a modifier that links stupidity to homosexuality. Coasterlover1994^{Leave your mark!} 18:48, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

He did not withdraw his complaint. I believe undermined my gayness and further added insult. --Gay airline editor (talk) 04:50, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• Apparently they went offline before you posted your first note on their talk page. The "complaint" wasn't acted upon; Cullen328 agreed with you. Why not just wait until they get back on? 66.191.153.36 (talk) 05:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

DIREKTOR and Anon7mous

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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In 2007, User:Anon7mous was edited by User:DIREKTOR - [242] and [243] to point visitors from the former to the latter. In 2010, at User talk:Anon7mous the two accounts had this discussion. The other day, another three years later, Anon7mous goes on to resurrect DIREKTOR's proposal on WT:YU#Scope_.233. If this is an actual case of sock/meatpuppetry, it's got to be the silliest ever. I doubt DIREKTOR would do such a thing, I think it's actually more likely that that they made this series of silly mistakes involving the account of a real-life friend of his. The end result is confusing at best. Would it be inappropriate if I insisted that Anon7mous makes a clean start under a new name? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:24, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I think this should make everything clear [[244]]. I must also say that Joy and I are currently opposed in a debate on the scope of WikiProject Yugoslavia and this looks like some kind of "revenge". I am saddened to be so treated having only been editing for a few days. DIRECTOR and I do know each other and he is the user who invited me to join this amazing project. I did edit somewhat as an IP and I am eager now to contribute as much as I can about economics for example with my current account, because I use this nickname everwhere. Thank you Anon7mous (talk) 21:31, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Short answer: yes it would be inappropriate for you to insist Anon7mous make a clean start under a new name. It seems clear they have stated that they know each other outside of the project, and as long as they're not making inappropriate edits on each others behalf there's not a thing wrong here. Being friends with someone off-wiki isn't against the rules, and frankly asking Anon7mous to change his user name would only result in the same person making the same edits using a different user name. I'm not sure what the point of insisting on a name change/new account is, other than to make things more difficult for someone who has opposing views from yours. AniMate 02:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I think you missed one factoid: DIREKTOR edited Anon7mous's page to point to his own. As if it's his alter ego. This stood there for three years. Then they had this discussion explaining that they are friends. Yet the user page pointer remained in place until three days ago. The two of them have, explicitly or implicitly, been telling the world that they are the same person for six years on that page.

The accusation that I'm doing this out of a "revenge" for a content dispute is ludicrous. If I were doing that, I would have just applied my administrative powers, not asked other admins for advice.

--Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:12, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• I think Anon7mous should use a new account, given that Direktor appears to initially have been this user - this surely violates the shared account policy? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:34, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

This is weird. Years ago I asked DIRECTOR why my username is red on wikipedia and asked him to fix it if he can, then he created my userpage and added the box that he had on his userpage at the time [245], copy-pasting he probably forgot to fix the link so it leads to my talk page.

Nobody "misused" this account, DIRECTOR certainly did not use it ("shared account"?), in fact this account was practically inactive from the moment it was created six years ago. I counted that I only did 4 edits (while logged in) before I seriously started editing a couple of days ago. I don't see why I would need to change my username, I already have some contributions linked to this account and I don't see why I should lose them? Considering Joy and I right now disagree about something, I can't help but see this as malicius somehow. Anon7mous (talk) 10:29, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I looked into this a bit more in the course of the discussion at WT:YU#Scope_.233, and I think I should explicitly write it here, too: Anon7mous' first edits in 2010 were reverts on topics well-known to be DIREKTOR's favorites ([246][247]), and their first edits this year included an antagonistic discussion - saying someone else's edits made the article look "childish and pathetic" at Talk:Croats - and a salvo of talk page edits to add articles to this project twelve hours before DIREKTOR even added his proposed change: Talk:Croatia at 00:42 etc vs. WP:YU at 13:23. Even if the two of them aren't in collusion (violating e.g. WP:MEAT or WP:SOCK), this is hardly proper. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 10:35, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

On talk:Croats all I sad was that our infobox would look silly if we crammed in 28 people[248], and I still stand by that. As I already explained, concerning two 2010 reverts, DIRECTOR and I did know each other (we obviously share some interests). If I remember all he did was mention some articles on wikipedia and I had look when I came home. I did not know that people who know each other can not edit wikipedia together? Having explained that, I honestly don't see why I need to answer for two reverts three years ago? Anon7mous (talk) 12:12, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I joined this project to contribute to WikiProject Yugoslavia. Reading through the archives of past WikiProject discussions I noticed that the scope had been expanded by agreement and that DIRECTORs restriction seemed to have been lifted. Accordingly I added some of my favorite articles that I wanted to expand to the project. I did not realize that the scope had not been amended and that there was still some disagreement on this. I don't see what would be the point of me starting a different account? Anon7mous (talk) 13:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

If you want to accuse them of sockpuppetry, the best venue to do that would be WP:SPI. Asking Anon7mous to register a new account is probably without a doubt the stupidest thing you could ask for in this situation. Right now Anon7mous and DIREKTOR have clearly and unambiguously stated that they know each other outside of Wikipedia. If the two of them collude to violate 3rr or edit war, it is much easier to prove sock or meat puppetry with the connection already having been stated.

However, two people knowing each other and disagreeing with you isn't against the rules. They haven't violated 3rr and don't appear to edit war. Trying to get one or both of them blocked for disagreeing with you on talk pages and in a WikiProject is a pretty bad (and obvious) attempt to gain an advantage. Let this go and move on. AniMate 21:11, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

You've been terribly dismissive of my questions for reasons that aren't really apparent to me. I do not want to accuse them of sockpuppetry; I'm saying their own actions made them look unnecessarily suspicious, to the point where the benefits of a clean start may well outweigh its downsides. I also don't want to get them blocked, and I certainly am not raising this problem here just because they disagree with me. Your repeated assertion that I'm just doing this out of spite is in itself a gross violation of WP:AGF - you should know better and you should know that I know better. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 15:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

"Problem"? What problem? How am I supposed to assume good faith (as you seem to like to repeat) when you are reporting me here on the noticeboard for no apparent reason? Then you ignore me and my questions (that also seem to puzzle others) with regard to why I should supposedly start a new account. How would that benefit me or Wikipedia? I assumed there is something I don't know but others also don't seem to get it. I also thought you "knew better", but now I'm starting to think you're just trying to intimidate me with this (because we don't agree at WikiProject). You say you're an administrator? Anon7mous (talk) 21:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Kindly read what I already wrote above twice. For six years, the two accounts were made largely indistinguishable through edits made by one to another. If it even needs saying, the discussion three years ago doesn't have to mean much because it was not confirmed to be true by a third party, and even after it happened, the earlier edits were not undone until this year. And, again, if I actually wanted to intimidate you, I could have simply done something to that effect, which I didn't. Sheesh. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:15, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I would hope that you would not in fact, have been able to "do something to that effect" for no reason whatsoever? Otherwise Wikipedia has some problems. I ask again, what benefit would I or Wikipedia have from me abandoning my account. And what have I violated? When you deceptively say "associated for six years" you fail to mention that in those six years I have posted only 3 contributions while logged-in. Anon7mous (talk) 11:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Huh.. what's this now? :) I honestly wish you do indeed "know better" and are just WP:BITING newbies in your spare time, Joy. One of the more bizarre ANI threads I had the pleasure of being invited to. In the first place: on what policy-relevant grounds would you demand that Anon7mous (or I!?) start a new account? In the second place, of what conceivable use, to me or others, would such a course be? I was thinking of changing my username to "Director" at some point if possible, if it would make you feel better I could post a request.. -- Director (talk) 09:13, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive editing/Original research on Ottoman–Persian War (1821–1823) & Ottoman–Persian Wars

I started adding references to Ottoman Persian Wars & Ottoman Persian War (1821-1823)[249], making the result of Ottoman Persian War(1821-1823) war Treaty of Erzurum and "status quo antebellum" per ("A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East", Vol.III, ed. Spencer C. Tucker, (ABC-CLIO, 2010), 1140), when User:Someguy1122 starts adding "Tactical Persian victory".

I posted on the talk page asking for source(s) for this "Tactical Persian victory".[250] User:Someguy1122 responded with a link to the Battle of Erzurum stating, "As i wrote in the edit box, please read the article itself. The major battle of that war was the battle of Erzurum, which Persia won outnumbered. The treaty itself was based on that battle, hence the name treaty of Erzurum. Read the article itself for the sources:". Someguy1122 posted no published sources for his opinion.

After waiting a week and with no published sources to support his opinion, I removed "Tactical Persian victory". Someguy1122 returned to edit war his opinion back into the article. After I tagged both articles and added citations to his opinion, Someguy1122 is now using a reference(quoted;"The Persian invasion in the north culminated in the Battle of Erzurum, where Abbas Mirza with 30,000 men defeated a Turkish army estimated at 52,000. Peace was finally established by the Treaty of Erzerum; both sides agreed to maintain the status quo.") to force his POV.[251]

So now Someguy1122 is falsely using a source to push his original research. What can be done about this disruptive editor? --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:03, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Keep talking and follow other steps outlined in Wikipedia:Dispute resolution? Nil Einne (talk) 17:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Yep. Looks like a classic content dispute, only KB has the advantage of marginally more solid sources. SG1122 needs to find better sources, or should stop trying to re-add. Both editors seem to be using relatively weak google-searched sources; I imagine better ones exist but could require some effort to excavate. A strategic (not tactical) Persian victory seems a credible result to the entire conflict, as the sources I can find suggest Persia succeeded in winning concessions with few or no substantial losses. But without WP:RS which actually make that synthesis, its of no use to this article. --R.S. Peale (talk) 19:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

So it is perfectly acceptable for this editor to misrepresent a reference to support his OR? --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

If an editor misrepresents references, and add improperly cited OR, the appropriate remedy would be to proceed through Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. You may also invite him to this discussion. If you're expecting immediate, draconian sanctions to be applied, it's really a bit too soon for that. --R.S. Peale (talk) 19:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Someguy1122 has been notified of this. I wanted more input from the community at large, no draconian measures. If an editor can simply write "whatever" and use any source to support it, then why was Wikipedia:Original research even implemented as a policy? What is wrong with my sources?? --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:34, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Tucker's Chronology isn't a a bad source, but on the subject it's thin. The entire conflict gets two paragraphs, which only cover a few brief highlights. Not enough meat to inspire much confidence. However, it is a valid citation, cited properly, with no reason not to consider it a RS. If another editor were to dispute it, they would need to provide better sources with different conclusions. Someguy1122 attempted, but failed. (your diffs should stand, his should go) --R.S. Peale (talk) 21:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes in case my post wasn't clear, it's way too soon for administrative action and there's rarely much point bringing a content dispute to ANI if that isn"t needed. Note that if you have concerns with an editors behaviour but don't have very good reason to think they are not acting in good faith, you should nearly always speak to them first. And no posting at ANI and inviting them as required doesn't count as talking to them. Even an RFC/U can't be opened without having talked to the person first. (And do remember to WP:AGF, saying someone misrepresented a reference is can be quite a serious allegation as it can carry the implication it's intentional and this would generally need more evidence then a single incidence. Remember that there are many possible reasons why a source may be added to support something when it doesn't seem to actually support it, such as differing interpretations of a source, misremembering what the source said, misremembering which source or accidently citing the wrong source, in some cases although obviously not here the source may have changed, etc. All of which while not good, are not quite the same thing as using a source fully aware it doesn't support what you claim it supports hoping no one will notice.)

And if you need further input to resolve a dispute, there are plenty of ways to ask for that but ANI is rarely one of them (mostly only cases when it involves administrative actions).

All this and more is described in the dispute resolution and associated pages.

Nil Einne (talk) 21:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Guess you haven't taken the time to view the talk page then.[252],[253],[254],[255],[256],[257]. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:15, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, Kansas Bear is simply lying about the source. The source I put was not provided by me, it was provided by Kansas Bear himself in the Battle of Erzurum (1821) entry [258]. The article on the Battle of Erzurum, the major battle of that war, was previously sourced before Kansas put another. The article states that the battle of Erzurum 1821 was clearly won by the Persians. The only major battle won in a war is a tactical victory for the victor is it not? Thus I added the source which Kansas Bear had put in the battle of Erzurum entry, in the entries on the Ottoman-Persian conflicts. Furthermore I suggested twice in the talk page to Kansas bear that we should get an arbiter to settle it. He instead made a provocative and baiting post in talk page and reported me. He lied here about the source, he never mentioned that it's his own source and claimed it was something I made up, as visible in his post above. Moreover, he is still reverting sourced information in the very same article but made by other users: [259] SomeGuy1122 (talk) 10:09, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

It seems user R.S. Peale talk which is clearly on the side of Kansas bear here has also gone to the user and said this about me [260]. "Not too awful"? "history of aggressive POV pushing"? What do you base that on? Instead of concentrating on the problem, this user has called me names and judged me based on his POV. I still await your response on the post I made above, regarding the lies KB told to push his agenda. SomeGuy1122 (talk) 05:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

You need to retract that accusation of lying, preferably in the very next edit you make on this project, or you'll be blocked for personal attacks. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:51, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Request for immediate desysopping user:Tariqabjotu for failure to abide by civility, assuming good faith, making paranoid accusations, abrogating discussion, removing pertinent evidence, and behaving in a way incongruent with being an administrator

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Please note that Tariqabjotu has summarily foreclosed the discussion and repeatedly removed the evidence from his talk page. This is after he misunderstood and entirely failed to address the content of my initial message to him.

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tariqabjotu&action=history

-- Mareklug ^talk 03:16, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Tariq is allowed to remove your edits from his talk page without providing any explanation at all and you are likely to be blocked for edit warring and harassment if you continue to return them to his talk page. --Jayron32 03:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

You all right, Marek? You of all people should know that even if all of what you said were true, you can't just take someone to ANI and expect them to get desysopped. —Soap— 04:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Just two people annoyed at each other. Time to kiss and make up. — Lfdder (talk) 12:17, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Time wasting. Almost a boomerang case of incivility to boot. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:42, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"the page is reliable you (censored)!"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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No need for elaboration. Spacecowboi is throwing out stuff like this left and right. I'm surprised nobody actually came here - I posit that this requires immediate administrative action per the edit summaries alone on Then Jerico:

• the page is reliable you f******* n*****! F*** off back to pakistan you w**
• f*** off c***

This guy was already blocked for two weeks after this sockpuppet investigation. This, however, is totally different. I really don't think it requires any elaboration. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:17, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing you just chose the most eye catching title possible to get more eyes on this report. —Soap— 04:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

If you had reported earlier, it's a certain block for both edit warring and incivility. However, it's been over a day since they last edited and I'm not sure how much of a block would actually be WP:PREVENTATIVE. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:27, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

My intent was simply to get swift attention, not necessarily a lot of attention. I apologize if it was a bit too much, though, and have deleted the bad words. If the guy has already been previously blocked for sockpuppetry though, and this is the sort of behavior he displays when challenged, then what else is there to do? His edits are still the last on the article and it's possible that involved editors could decide to revert given the content disagreement. Is it really acceptable behavior that a person is allowed to behave this way on the encyclopedia? MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, tried to post this earlier and my computer decided to act up on me; not having seen your message, I went ahead and blocked. Until Spacecowboi can explain what the hell was going through his mind when he wrote those edit summaries, he doesn't need to be editing. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

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Edits by AldezD on Judith Barsi

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The user AldezD has been making some unnessecary removals of the article Judith Barsi. While he (or she) saids that all the info he's removing "violates WP:NOTMEMORIAL", though I do agree on a few things he removing that might be trivial, my concern is that the removals prevent this from being a very comprehensive and broad article, and would be going downhill into a start-class article. I don't see how his edits are trying to make the article more organized, as it look organized finely before, and I've been trying to have this article equal the quality of Heather O'Rourke and the good article Brian Epstein (out of terms of length). EditorE (talk) 17:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I have made multiple edits to the article's talk page explaining why the content EditorE re-adding to the article is not appropriate. The user's contributions on the talk page are nothing more than "I don't agree", after which he/she engages in edit war activity. I have not reverted EditorE's last edit to the article, but again re-stated why this information is not appropriate on the talk page. The user does not contribute to the discussion, does not explain why this information should be included, and again re-adds information that is not appropriate. AldezD (talk) 18:02, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Is the content the only issue between you two? Why not use WP:DRN  A m i t  ❤  18:14, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• This looks like a content dispute rather than a conduct issue, so it's essentially out of scope for ANI. That said, at a glance the bulk of the exicised material relates to detailed accounts of her family members' personal lives, including the names and ages of her half-siblings, accounts of things that happened long before she was born, and even a sentence about her mom's bad housekeeping habits. Most of this stuff is trivial and only tangentally related to the article subject and should probably not be re-inserted into the article. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 18:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• The post on DRN was closed and the post was removed from 3O, but no additional commentary has taken place on the article's talk page. Would you recommend waiting for additional activity to take place on the talk page from other editors and/or EditorE, or is it appropriate to now move forward with removing the details above listed by Starblind as not appropriate, without myself violating WP:EDITWAR? AldezD (talk) 19:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I've now provided a Third Opinion at the article page, sorry for being slow. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:56, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

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User:Mike Searson adding promotional material to multiple articles and creating purely promotional articles

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Mike Searson has created two articles (Vortex Flash Hider and Wind Talker sound suppressor) that I see as purely promotional and have nominated for deletion (through AfD), and has also added what I see as promotional material, with links to the two aforementioned articles, on a number of weapons related articles. Material that I have removed from the articles ([261], [262], [263], [264], [265], [266]) as being promotion but that is repeatedly re-added to the articles by Mike Searson, with edit summaries such as "revert vandalism and removal of sourced material". I don't want to be drawn into multiple edit wars with him, and risk crossing the magic 3RR-threshold, and at the same time I don't want to template him for adding promotional material since he seems to be an active and productive editor with good standing. So I would appreciate if one or more admins would take a look at the material to see if you share my opinion about it being promotional, and if that is the case give him a stern warning to stop adding promotional material and stop edit warring over it. Because I have a feeling that he would listen more to an admin telling him than me, a simple foot soldier, doing it. Thomas.W ^{talk to me} 19:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I think a certain editor needs to assume good faith. These are well-sourced articles of interest to people interested in firearms and inventions developed to make them more effective. I created the Vortex article and when there was a particularly notable firearm that used it, i linked to it. There are Vortex flash suppressors made for at least 20 firearms, but I only linked to the notable versions used by various militaries. That is called growing the encyclopedia.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think this qualifies as promotional, but many of the edits are inappropriate. These products are not the only sound supressor or flash hiders on the market, and generic terms should not be replaced with specific brands, unless it is in fact the only product that is used in that context. I believe the two articles should be redirected per WP:PRODUCT, but do not believe that any administrative action needs to be taken against Mike, except to point him to the relevant policies/guidelines to improve his editing going forward. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Well eventually the plan is to create more articles about specific sound suppressors. I just started where the most literature was available and the topics were inter-related. Specific examples were used where those examples were used specifically. The Windtalker was made to attach to the Vortex for use on the M21A5 (Crazy Horse), etc. The Canadian version of the Vortex is made for the Ops Inc. Suppressor. SureFire's Suppressors use their attachments. They started in the SEI article, but I felt they were big enough to stand on their own without making the article unwieldy.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:23, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• It seems like this is a mistaken in terms of the allegation. I would ask something specific of Mike though: Don't you write on the topic outside of Wikipedia? Has there been any sort of relationship with Vortex, such as free products being provided for testing etc? Niteshift36 (talk) 20:38, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I write on a lot of topics such as these outside of wikipedia. I write at least 20 articles a week about knives, guns, MMA, sound suppressors, fighting, self defense, firearms history, how-to guides, etc. I own a few Vortexs that I purchased with my own money back in 2005 before I even thought of becoming a full time writer. I evaluated a newer one for use with a sound suppressor for a publication a few months ago. Basically when you are given something to evaluate you have x number of days to return it or you have to buy it. If it is good I write an article about it, take photos and send it back. If it sucks, I send it back and tell the manufacturer I have no use for it. With some companies, you get a chance to buy it at a reduced rate. I think the only things I have ever kept as a writer were a few Metalform magazines for 1911s that the company told me to keep. Were I to write a review about a sound suppresor I would have to buy it and pay a $200 tax and wait 6-9 months for a tax stamp before I can so much as photograph it.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 21:52, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm quite familiar with how it works. I simply asked so we could head that off now, rather than have someone think it up later. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Understood. I just felt I'd clarify for those that did not. Some people mistakenly seem to think that we get piles of free guns and gear, etc for writing about them. :)--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:27, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I checked some of the diffs linked above and do not understand why some of the sourced material was removed as "promotional". Describing a product per third-party, independent reliable sources isn't "promotional" per se-- if using non-third-party sources, it often is. If there is concern that the sources are not neutral (third-party, independent), I would understand-- is that the case? As background, I have had Mike's talk page watchlisted since he helped write a dispatch after we noticed these types of allegations claiming that Featured Articles about products were "promotional", when they were in fact quite well sourced, neutral, and had been vetted at FAC: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-09/Dispatches. Also, a question: would it not be appropriate to see if these two articles survive AfD before bringing this to ANI? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:14, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with SandyGeorgia. None of these materials qualify as promotional. This is well sourced information about certain devices. This is no more promotional than article about Windows XP. My very best wishes (talk) 02:56, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment: This is the Administrator's Noticeboard and I came here for administrator advice, and in the hope that one or more administrators would look at the articles and edits and judge them according to the rules, but as far as I can see not a single one of the people who have so far commented on this matter is an administrator. So the comments don't really help. Thomas.W ^{talk to me} 06:47, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

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Blocked user Wiwoinc spamming talk page

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Wiwoinc (talk · contribs) was blocked for spamming earlier. Following the block, he replaced his talk page with a spam link. Can his talk page access be revoked and the spam deleted? --71.199.125.210 (talk) 23:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I've noticed Vsupply (talk · contribs) has done the same thing. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 23:48, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I've revoked Wiwoinc's talk page access. Someone else already deleted his spam. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 02:44, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

And Vsupply as well. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 02:49, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

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Unusual vandalism, quick action needed

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76.0.29.118 is vandalizing furiously and apparently removing entries at AIV. For hopefully obvious reasons I'm not going to give any notice. Looie496 (talk) 03:39, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I support your reason not to give notice per the Streisand effect. GSK ● ✉ ✓ 03:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Blocked. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 04:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. Looie496 (talk) 04:03, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

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Reserve Officers' Training Corps

Hello. This article's original title was "Reserve Officers' Training Corps". Some user disagreed with it and moved the article to "Reserve Officers Training Corps", removing the possessive form. Another user must have wanted to move it back to the original title, was stymied and opted to simply copy-and-paste the whole article's wiki markup into the redirect page; revision history got wiped out. Hope someone can help sort it out. Reserve Officers' Training Corps Current revision history — •KvЯt GviЯnЭlБ• ^Speak! 08:47, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done Bencherlite^Talk 10:20, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Sockblock requested

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174.226.192.25 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) 66.191.153.36 (talk) 04:57, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:SPI is thataway and it would be a good idea if you provide evidence of what editor or IP you think this is a sock of. MarnetteD | Talk 05:08, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I know where it is, thanks. Or, you could just look at the history of the RfA they're bitching about and see those recent IPs that forced Dennis Brown to protect it for two days. You might be interested in Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jackadvisor, which after two weeks is still waiting on closure. Or you could just block them for quacking, of course. 66.191.153.36 (talk) 05:11, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Blocked. Quacking is a very serious offense on Wikipedia and taken very seriously. Such an ugly and annoying sound to make, really. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:33, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

A rubber duck award for Fut.Perf., whose talk page I cannot edit, apparently. 66.191.153.36 (talk) 14:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

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Possible copyright violations

Perhaps someone who's also active on Commons, preferably as an admin, can have a look at the contributions of BLACKBOY135 (talk · contribs), who's been uploading images there like crazy and adding them to our articles here. A spot check of two of their images suggests that they've copied them from the internet before uploading them as their own. Or Blackboy is going through their archives, collected while they got a front row seat at major sports events all over South America. 66.191.153.36 (talk) 05:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for reporting; warned and reported on Commons. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I reverted his image additions. MER-C 12:39, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you both. Your bonus will be in the mail after the actual block, if that happens. There's no bonus payment for diplomacy. 66.191.153.36 (talk) 13:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

May need attention

The Tikun_Olam_(blog) article and the blog's author Richard Silverstein, appear to be under attack. Perhaps it's the same person that threatened to kill various people and bomb Wikipedia yesterday (here, who knows). Special:Contributions/Jonah_silverstein may need to be blocked, the article Tikun_Olam_(blog) semi-protected and perhaps the edits revdel'd. The account is, by the way, probably named after the subject's son. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:17, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Blocked and revdel'ed. Shall we wait with the semiprotection to see if it continues first? I'm not seeing a longer-term pattern at the moment except for this one account. (But no objection if somebody wants to be on the safe side and protect now.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:34, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I think they probably continued elsewhere via Special:Contributions/Hharghj, which has already been blocked. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:43, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Hharghj is clearly a Runtshit sock. JS probably is, too. RolandR (talk) 11:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Request speedy closure of BLP violating AFD

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Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_people_with_attention-deficit_hyperactivity_disorder looks like WP:SNOW, and possible G10, but one !vote has objected to speedy closure. If someone could take a look and take whatever action they think is appropriate... Gaijin42 (talk) 14:43, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

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Legal threat by User:Otisnaguzici

This editor, who also seems to edit as an IP, says " If you dare to remove anything i update on these pages ... your ip adress will be sent to bhutan royal police and the king jigme wangchuk himself will put you in jail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" PamD 15:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I have blocked Otisnaguzici indefinitely for the legal threat. If/when it is withdrawn, any admin may remove the block. I have also blocked the IP sock 78.3.30.101 for disruptive editing. -- Ed (Edgar181) 15:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive talk page notices by User:SPECIFICO

Stuck

 – This discussion has lost focus! – S. Rich (talk)

SPECIFICO (talk · contribs · count · api · block log)

As noted elsewhere, User:SPECIFICO explicitly has stated he is an Austrian School economist who thinks those connected to the Ludwig von Mises Institute which he sees as a competing economics faction are "hijackers" and "multi-level marketing" schemers. He has made biased edits and reverts on several related articles and his POV is so strong he fails or refuses per IDIDNTHEARTHAT to understand clear explanations of policy. He now has taken to leaving me eight questionable and even baseless Talk page "Notices" over the last two weeks, including three under one header, that look like attempts to disrupt my comments and editing. He is starting to do this as well to User talk:Id4abel who also has problems with his editing on these articles.

• June 15: Edit warring warning regarding this diff at Austrian economist Jesús Huerta de Soto article, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#SOTO.

This was a false accusation of 3rr where I had to explain his own edit warring to him.

• June 20: Three different warning notices at once regarding this diff at an RfC on another topic, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#Section_header.

I did launch into a general soapbox discussion of editing issues, but it obviously was not a personal attack on another editor, one who I was quite unfamiliar with. And I did strike it.

• June 21: Disruptive editing warning regarding this diff at WP:OR Noticeboard, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#OR_noticeboard.

Because I complained about User:SPECIFICO coming to the WP:OR noticeboard to dismiss policy issues and refusing to discuss policy. See the seven section discussion of his WP:OR entries to Huerta de Soto article.

• June 26: Edit warring complaint regarding this diff at Huerta de Soto article, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#Skousen.

My first revert of WP:OR discussed at both Talk:Jesús_Huerta_de_Soto#More_WP:OR_using_Skousen and Talk:Jesús_Huerta_de_Soto#Removal_of_Barry-related_WP:OR.2FSynth.

• June 27: Edit war warning regarding this diff at Austrian economist Murray Rothbard article, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#Rothbard.

My first revert of new POV controversial material. The article had been protected for two days previously because of my June 2 3rr/Edit Warring complaint about User:SPECIFICO trying to denigrate Rothbard. This time SPECIFICO was removing the fact that Rothbard is an economist from the first sentence, despite four solid refs saying so and despite previous talk page rejection of such a suggestion. This is a prime example of his extreme bias against competing Austrian economists which leads to his disruptive editing.

• June 28: Off topic personal remarks warning regarding this diff at Murray Rothbard RfC, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#June_2013.

After taking my advice to start an RfC on Rothbard as an economist, SPECIFICO objected that I wrote "Sources are what counts on Wikipedia, not editors' personal opinions and WP:OR." (This in reply to his criticizing my RfC support for economist.)

Thanks for any help. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 19:59, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

• Note At first glance, there does seem to be some merit as to the unnecessary aggressiveness. I don't have time to dig deep tonight, but hopefully someone will. Bumping because they needs to be addresses and not just archived. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Carolmooredc Addition: Thinking about it, realized the last three talk page notices came after I put a talk page message about Wikihounding on his talk page (corrected at this diff) because he followed me in 30 hours to 4 pages he had not edited before and there either reverted me or left a negative comment. So maybe this became his new mode of harassment. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 12:54, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

  Editor SPECIFICO seems to be in a habit of handing out Warning with citations to WP policies to any user who has reverted his change as seen here or here or here or here(even this editor warned him for wiki hounding) (and might be many more - as edit history for user talk shows a persistent trend of showering warning to a particular editor for a period of time and then moving on to some one else - depending on who he is having an argument with) -as this usually seems to happen to any editor he might be involved in argument over content - Carol Moore just might be his recent favorite.  A m i t  ❤  17:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

On the other hand this should be read through for the history these two editors have had  A m i t  ❤  18:51, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

[Insert]: FYI, I do refer to that ANI in my June 27th entry above. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 22:48, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The edit history shows a campaign to revise articles that touch upon Austrian Economics to push readers toward viewing that school of economics as a crank theory. Supposedly SPECIFICO is an Austrian economist so this whole thing makes little sense. I live in a mostly free country where people are allowed to support most any view they like, and advocate that view to others, but Wikipedia has different goals. The wikihounding that followed has not yet reached epic proportions, but it has grown well into the realm of unacceptable. Using reasonable sounding edit descriptions that conceal the actual actions taken, making a few useful edits to make finding the dishonest ones harder, citing respected sources and half sticking to what the sources actually said, deleting a claim with a valid cited source and attempting to defend the delete with no source whatsoever, and so on. It is masterful gaming of the system. I applaud the intelligence behind the campaign. There is dedication and craftiness that would be one of the biggest assets ever if applied to improving articles rather than used to push unsupported propaganda against a theory onto an unfamiliar population.

My first encounter with this editor was at 20:42 on 8 June 2013 where I replaced uncited and badly slanted text with cited text that better follows the neutrality policy within the Hans-Hermann Hoppe article. I think the second encounter is when the wikihounding began. This is were I think this Wikipedia system has a giant flaw in that it is much easier for an editor dedicated to making the article push one point of view rather than easier for the collaborative effort that Wikipiedia is supposed to encourage.

The first abuse of the edit war warning only resulted in a prolonged argument about how the three revert rule means whatever SPECIFICO says that it means.

The second abuse of the edit war warning had no response from SPECIFICO at all. Abel (talk) 17:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

User Abel's analysis of User:Specifico's modus operandi is excellent, though it would take a huge WP:ANI to document it all with diffs. It's just easier to document the most obviously behavioral manifestations.

As we all know, such subtle disruptive/tenditious editing can cause a lot of anger, hurts collaboration and can lead to edit warring. I'm quite burned out after a couple months of it with User:Specifico and barely have the energy to finish off several new or improved sections on articles on other topics that were interrupted when I first noticed this destructive editing pattern on a couple articles I've watched for a few years, as well as related BLPs. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 04:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• In my opinion, supported by my inspection of his editions and my encounters in talk pages with him, he doesn't edit articles about austrianism trying to enhance the material, with definitions, perspectives, and critics in a neutral way. Instead, I believe he destroy the articles when he tries to harm the intelectual reputation of austrian thinkers. He doesn't respect Wikipedia policies about consensus and references in the way to achieve the goal of destroy those reputations, and his way to talk to users is totally wrong, it seems he believes he is an battle field with "enemies" that should be exterminate. I don't know if he is concious of the diference of an hostile schoolar debate and what are the porpouses of Wikipedia talks.--Sageo (talk) 16:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• More evidence to support my point about how this system has an enormous design flaw in that it took SPECIFICO seconds to pepper[267] [268] [269] the article with failed verification, not in citation given, and such tags with completely blank edit summaries yet took me I don't know how long to hunt down and type up exact quotes to show how each and every one of those tags was complete and utter nonsense. Abel (talk) 18:58, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I should note that this one article alone has more of that type of attack. These three were together and so easier to find. Usually the attacks are performed with far more stealth. Also, this is just one article. Given the number of edits made, there are likely hundreds more to track down and correct. Abel (talk) 19:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• How many boards have you been to about Specifico now? As I recall they all failed to get any response. OR, NPOV, BLP etc Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

June 15th - Notice that you appeared to be edit warring. Edit warring does not require 3rr. You can edit war with less or more reversions. Given that you were repeatedly removing sourced content, this can be considered edit-warring without crossing the 3rr bright line.

June 21st - Given you had already raised this as various places, it could quite easily be seen as disruptive editing. Close to forum shopping.

June 26th - More reversion despite no traction on the OR arguments.

June28th - Given that you have repeatedly tried to get Specifico sanctioned for NPOV, OR, BLP violations at various noticeboards (and failed), your comments could certainly be taken by Specifico as a personal attack on his editing. I read that comment as you accusing him of editing out of his opinion and OR rather than from a source-base.

In short, specifico should not be templating you so much. You should not be dragging him to every noticeboard under the sun when you are in a content dispute. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

So those were all responses to CarolMooreDC's original dated comments above?Abel (talk) 21:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

To User:Only in death: First, of course, you only are summarizing his/her claims all still at User talk:Carolmooredc, not my responses and corrections. Also, note that two editors were against Specifico's addition of WP:OR content unrelated to the subject of the Biography on the talk page but we didn't want to edit war by reverting User:Specifico again. I went to WP:BLPN with the OR issue and no one responded; who knows why. I asked at Editors assistance (my question) if it would be ok to go to WP:ORN since no response. Two longtime editors said yes. So I did. So that is not "dragging him/her to every noticeboard under the sun when you are in a content dispute." And this WP:ANI is a behavioral issue.

Not to ignore your mention of NPOVN - This NPOVN was regarding another editor soapboxing; when Specifico demanded evidence, and since s/he often collaborated with that editor in soapboxing, I provided evidence of them both doing it together and/or in his/her biased soapbox. That was Specifico's disruptive behavior of the month of May. I'm sure after this ANI, whatever the outcome, Specifico will find a new disruptive behavior. The only thing that keeps Specifico from totally destroying BLPs of those s/he detests seems to be taking her/him to various noticeboards. And when there are only two or three editors on an article (and s/he ignores the other two even when they explain policy clearly) that is the standard WP:Dispute measure. (I'd try dispute resolution noticeboard but s/he tends to ignore or mock usual Wiki dispute resolution processes.) CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 00:06, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Id4abel has been canvassing like-minded users in order to bring them to this noticeboard thread.[270][271][272][273] — goethean 12:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

How is notifying people who are already involved but possibly not aware, regardless of their feelings, canvassing? Canvassing is trying to recruit people to jump on your side. I only asked that they share their experiences to make this report more complete. Abel (talk) 12:47, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Four points:

1. For CarolMooreDC (and Abel) – just what course of action would you recommend?

• You got me, what options are available? Abel (talk) 21:28, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

2. I have found SPECIFICO to be extremely reluctant to tone down the various warnings posted. This has been disappointing and frustrating for me because I've pointed out that the warnings were ill-founded.

3. Advice on Abel's user talkpage was posted about the need to be more neutral with ANI notification's. A positive response was made by Abel.

4. With this in mind, the concern about votestacking is not a major one. For myself, I consider myself more of a Wikipedian than "like-minded". – S. Rich (talk) 20:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Possible course of action: I can see from user contributions s/he is laying low right now, so I don't know if a short block would even phase her/him. I think User:SPECIFICO would take seriously something like a short topic ban, say a month from Austrian economics topics and related BLPs (and any related topics, like libertarian BLPs and topics, should s/he disrupt them). Then s/he might show some respect for Wikipedia processes and for other editors who have an interest in these topics.

Also, Austrian economics/libertarianism/various BLPs involved here are very complicated topics and there are a wide variety of views that different individuals can hold in relation to any of them. Therefore, it should not be assumed that those who are interested in a topic and argue to follow WP policies have some overwhelming bias regarding any topic that is in any way as strong as the explicit negative biases expressed by User:SPECIFICO in user and article talk pages, biases which have led to his/her repeatedly ignoring Wikipedia policies. This false and simplistic allegation has been made by User:SPECIFICO in the past with no real evidence and inferred by one or two others since then. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 21:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think a topic ban is appropriate. A substantial portion of SPECIFICO's topic edits have been worthwhile. He has more of a problem with editor interaction, which I've seen and described as high-handed at times. Rather, a one-way WP:IBAN would work better, where SPECIFICO could not violate the 4 restrictions described in IBAN. Who would be the beneficiaries of the IBAN? CarolMooreDC and Abel are certainly two candidates. For myself, I would not care to be included (as SPECIFICO may interact with me). If other editors wish to be included as beneficiaries of the IBAN, then (assuming they'd had some difficulties with SPECIFICO), they could say to him "I want your IBAN extended to include me because of ....." – S. Rich (talk) 02:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I do not dispute that 90% of User:SPECIFICO's edits were more or less within policy guidelines. The problem is the 10% which were very biased and where he refused to follow policy, or listen to other editors in regard to policy, and would ridicule other editors or the subjects of BLPs when he was challenged.

Moreover, User:SPECIFICO's refusal to interact and reply to policy concerns, including ones raised by you (SRich32977) on several articles, has been part of the problem, so it's not the solution. Only after I left the following in a response to one of his alleged edit warring alerts did he quickly respond to four or five outstanding issues raised on article talk pages. At this diff I wrote: Also note per various edits of yours, quoting WP:BRD, "If one skips the Discussion part, then restoring one's edit is a hostile act of edit warring and is not only uncollaborative, but could incur sanctions, such as a temporary block." And I've noted several cases on several articles where you have done problematic edits of materials others have reverted without bothering to respond on the talk page. Any IBAN would be just an excuse for User:SPECIFICO to keep doing biased edits and then ignore others complaints and revert them.

It would help if noticeboards were more responsive on complicated/abstruse/non-sexy economics-related issues we need to put before them. (And with BLPs it can be hard to figure out sometimes which noticeboard we should go to first, etc.) User:SPECIFICO has been known sometimes to give in to community opinions which go against him. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 13:25, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Carol makes a good point that an IBAN would likely lead to more of the problematic behavior rather than less. Clearly the recent lack of editing after prolific editing is mostly, if not completely, due to this discussion. Which suggests that some type of sanction is needed, and would likely be followed. Which would be a benefit to the entire project. Of course it also shows how a temporary ban of any kind will likely be followed, but not have any permanent impact on behavior. On the issue of duration, "Bans are not intended as a short-term measure. Sometimes a ban may be for a fixed period of some months. More often no period is specified, because the ban is a decision that the editor may not edit or participate in the specified matters on this site." That seems to suggest any limited ban should at least be a period of no less than a few months. That agrees with the evidence that a quarter or more might actually be seen as meaningful, and so has a chance of making a lasting impact on behavior. The topic ban looks like the most logical option. Abel (talk) 14:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I was tossing up commenting on this thread but I'm jumping in for a couple of reasons: 1, Carol's very first diff is from a conversation between myself and SPECIFICO - part of a 3-to-4-way discussion about cleaning up the walled garden that is the collection of Ludwig von Mises Institute-related BLPs. (Which brings me to...) 2, Carol's last point, which I think is the most pertinent one here. The community isn't responsive to threads like this because a few minutes of looking at the history suggests this is all one giant content issue, because there is one giant content issue here. Editor behaviour is distinct from that, and should be dealt with, but it is obviously difficult to separate the two when they are so intertwined. Without any prior knowledge or interest in the subject, I was asked by another editor if I could help clean up a couple of related BLPs. I did (a bit) and then organically progressed to a couple of related BLPs (and they are very much "related"). For notability, many rely almost entirely on "significant coverage" from other institute figures, whose articles in turn rely on coverage from other institute figures, whose articles in turn rely on coverage from other institute figures, and so on. Each is published extensively in blogs and journals and periodicals that are related to the institute because those are the publications most interested in their views. Very few of them would be considered "mainstream". That doesn't mean they aren't notable but many of the issues relate to how their work is responded to by institute colleagues. Should the views of institute colleagues count for more or less than external non-institute responders? Should we allow notability to be established only (or even primarily) by institute-related coverage given many are unquestionably reliable sources with regard to libertarian economic theory. Part of the problem is that the walled garden was established long ago and those responsible have had no desire to clean it up (some of those editors being the subjects of the articles themselves). Editors like SPECIFICO have tried to clean it up (that 90% Carol refers to) but being of a different school of thought there is obviously a motivation for doing so. Such a clean up requires some frank discussion, some hard decisions and some ruthless weed-whacking. The issue is where that weed-whacking becomes editor-whacking. If anything, I would suggest a short topic-ban to give SPECIFICO a chance to calm down and re-find that line between weed-whacking and editor-whacking, though it would seem he has self-imposed a short break as a result of this thread anyway. As for the content, there's probably a good opportunity for interested editors to get together and work on a mini-project/editing drive to clean up economics BLPs (and not just institute-related ones). Stalwart111 06:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for Stalwart111's comments. There's no doubt that many of the Mises/Rothbard/Rockwell/etc.-related articles are filled with WP:OR and primary sources by fans (and sometimes detractors). (I watched and tweaked Murray Rothbard for years but never bothered to correct the obvious issues; so many articles, so little time.)

However, when we actually start to beef up articles, there are lots of secondary credible and even notable sources that can be used. The Murray Rothbard lead and Jesus Huerta de Soto's whole article are perfect examples of improved material since SPECIFICO started complaining. But see the talk pages and they are filled with sections with a couple editors arguing with SPECIFICO about her deleting things that might make the individual or group look credible while adding questionable, biased or WP:OR/synth info. When s/he can't stop us from complaining about or modifying or reverting biased or policy-violating edits, or asking for help from other editors per WP:Dispute, s/he resorts to various serial questionable behaviors from soapboxing, to ignoring to templating. S/he needs to chill. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 18:11, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Specifico, as he has in all of these NB discussions, has laid low. In this case his behavior is a bit different. Not only is he letting the discussion go along without input, he's not edited anything for the past week. (Unusual for him.) So the "chilling" effect is in force, even without formal action. But what about those additional 90% positive edits that remain for future posting? Would a topic ban (e.g., enforced additional chilling) end up in a permanent retirement from WP? (I hope not.) But a topic ban, of whatever length, would not address the 10% problem, which is his interaction with other editors and POV. So, I will again argue for the IBAN. Specifico would not be able to post 3RR or OR or any other warnings. Specifico would not be able to castigate or admonish or correct or criticize other editors. His talk page comments, which should be focused on article improvement, would be tempered by the requirement to consider and heed IBAN restrictions. Any proposed controversial changes to articles would have to be resolved through other methods. An IBAN would be effective in achieving the goal of article improvement, which a topic ban cannot do. All Specifico has to do at this point is post a notice here that says "I agree to an IBAN with editors X, Y, and Z." Then we can close this and see if the results match my predictions. – S. Rich (talk) 18:35, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

You misunderstand. The 10% is the POV, WP:OR, edits or reverts he does that need discussion. If you want to talk about what percent of his talk page/noticeboard behavior is soapbox, mocking, irrelevant, non-constructive (or just ignoring people and threatening to take to edit warring if they revert him because he's ignored them), etc. you are talking 66% of his edits. So unless this means he cannot complain when we revert his problematic edits (or revert our reverts) - this makes no sense to me. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 18:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Take a look at the 4 restrictions that IBAN entails. He would not be able to make threats, mocking comments, NB postings, etc about you or other specific editors. The fourth restriction addresses your concerns about reverts. IOW, if he did not like an edit that you made, he'd have to post the reason on the article talk page and justify a desired change (without referring to you as an editor.) Then you (or someone else) could make the change to your edit. – S. Rich (talk) 22:47, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:IBAN#Interaction_ban: I should have read down to #4. Gave up too soon. Too good to be true! CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 00:07, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

With respect to both Carol and SRich, I really don't think an IBAN is the right solution for this particular problem and I'm questioning the wisdom even of a topic ban. These are long-term content issues that can really only be resolved by a group of editors working together. As Carol quite rightly points out, "so many articles, so little time". There is obviously a clean up effort underway, though still among a small group of "expert" editors. Banning one of those editors from interacting with some of the others is counter-productive, I think, especially when his remaining interaction/collaboration options will be limited to only those who agree with his world view. It creates an "us-and-them" mentality. I think he's frustrated by Wikipedia's long-term acceptance of questionable content in this particular area and then frustrated again when some of his enthusiastic efforts to clean it up have been delayed/questioned/opposed. He's taking that frustration out the editors themselves - "you haven't cared about cleaning this up for the 5 years it has been here, why are you opposing my clean up efforts now?" I think there is agreement from other editors that SPECIFICO's behaviour was unacceptable. I think there is tacit agreement even from SPECIFICO himself (given his self-imposed wikibreak). If it continues, I think there would be strong community support for sanctions to prevent further disruption. But I think anything now would be a punishment rather than damage-prevention. I've had positive, collegial interactions with almost everyone involved here so I know each person is capable of moving forward from this in a manner that lets bygones be bygones. I also think there's some value in everyone having a read of WP:DTR. Everyone involved is perfectly capable of crafting a well-written line or two and really nobody here should be using templates to "talk" to each other. New rule: if you add a template to another user's talk page about an economics BLP, it had better be a barnstar! Ha ha. Stalwart111 03:50, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

S. Rich has won me over to the permanent IBAN idea. Not an ideal solution, but probably the best solution available. Abel (talk) 06:31, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Surely the "best solution available" is to accept that Carol's well-explained post and your subsequent endorsement of it have together had the desired effect of prompting a wikibreak and a re-think? You'll not likely get community agreement for the implementation of, "not an ideal solution". Sanctions are for stopping disruption. The disruption has stopped. Anything beyond that is punishment, which is not what bans/blocks are about. Stalwart111 10:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

One-way interaction bans do not work, and have never worked. They are unfair in that almost always it takes two to cause an issue. Also IBANS are for problematic editor conduct towards other editors. Not for good faith content disputes. An IBAN would impact just as strongly on Abel or CMDC. You have issues over content, deal with it on the talk pages. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

The only reason the disruption stopped was the pending ban or block. Choosing no ban or block would put us all right back to disruption, making all this effort a pointless exercise in futility. Abel (talk) 14:20, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I did remain skeptical of IBAN despite my comments. RE:User:Stalwart111, obviously one reason an admin hasn't dealt with it by now is User:SPECIFICO's (probably temporary) disappearance. Hopefully later s/he will not claim that there was "no problem" and it was a "frivolous complaint" and start with some new disruptive pattern. Coming here with a new complaint now hopefully would be taken more seriously.

I just wish someone would look at and comment constructively Wikipedia:ORN#WP:OR.2FSynth_argumentation_in_biography, an aggravating dispute in all this. Even Specifico admitted s/he would not like it if I went around to his favorite economists' articles and added WP:OR mentions of Friedrich Hayek's views that contradict some point made by the economist; i.e., material from a source that makes no mention at all of the economist in question. (per WP:OR we only use "published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented"...) We really have to start beefing up community input with some sexy/exciting new program to get more former, experienced editors back. Sigh... CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 14:39, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• @Abel - there was no "pending ban or block". Bringing an editor here is no guarantee that a ban or block will be applied. There was a request for action which was effectively ignored by the wider community (as Carol pointed out above) not because it is without merit but because it is more complicated and there are obvious content issues involved.
• @Carol - I have little doubt that any subsequent meritorious complaint would result in action. If he feels this complaint was frivolous, he should have said as much and he had the chance to do so. Instead, he took a breather and self-imposed a wiki-break. I don't think he could now come back and claim otherwise and I, for one, would be back here calling for sanctions if he did.

On content - I'll have a look at your ORN post (for whatever little I could add) but part of the problem is that many of the articles I helped to clean up suffered from the same problem, but the other way around. In many cases BLPs included claims like x supported y and the citation was y's blog or journal article suggesting that the correlation between x's view and y's written work was self-evident, even though y's written work mentioned x not at all. Pure synthetic OR. Given that lax "standard", I think it is difficult for some editors to now accept that the same should not be done when talking about criticism or disagreement - ie. x opposes z, y supports z, therefore x opposes y, all cited to z's written work. Also OR. The other issue is with some of those "former, experienced editors" given many had obvious conflicts of interest. We don't want them back editing their own articles - that's how we ended up with the walled garden in the first place.

• I'm not out to have the last word on this but I really don't think we're going to get anything productive done by hanging out here for sanctions that aren't going to be imposed or by thinking that ANI can help resolve content issues. Can I suggest we allow an admin to close this and that we all get back to productive editing? Stalwart111 00:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I finally realized there actually is an essay called Wikipedia:Walled garden. Editor's laziness or lack of expertise in finding unrelated and outside sources should not be read as meaning no other solid WP:RS write about the topic. And it's particularly annoying when one brings in a good WP:RS from academic scholars and editor(s) who yell "Walled garden" try to remove them as not notable enough! (Not to mention removing good sources that actually compare Friedman and the economist in question.) Hopefully won't be a future problem... sigh... CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 03:48, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

A pending ban or block need not be inevitable, hence pending. The final results of this discussion could go any number of ways. You clearly favor doing nothing and hoping that an editor with an identified problem will mysteriously end that problem after experiencing no reprimand whatsoever. While that is certainly one possible outcome, I find it extremely unlikely. An outcome of zero reprimand sends a very strong and clear signal that the disruptive behavior will only bother a few editors that all-in-all no one really cares about, and so the disruptions can freely continue. Why would any rational person worry about a second incident when the first incident resulted in not even a slap on the wrist? They would not worry and should not worry. Sure the disruptive behavior was discussed. Some people mentioned a possible ban or block. With no sanction of any kind resulting from the identified disruptive behavior, the project obviously does not have any real plans to enforce any kind of punishment. Incentives matter. Doing nothing provides a powerful incentive. I prefer some type of action other than nothing. The sanction could be small, like S. Rich's proposed IBAN, but the sanction must exist in some form to avoid condoning the identified disruptive behavior. Abel (talk) 05:36, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

We don't reprimand, punish, slap on the wrist or ban to make a point, we prevent disruption. What disruption are you seeking to stop that hasn't already stopped? The disruption can't "continue" because it has stopped. It would have to "restart" which would then be considered obviously disruptive. By taking a step back he has acknowledged he has done wrong. Even if he hasn't, we have collectively agreed to interpret his actions that way and he hasn't sought to "correct" that. The idea is that we give him WP:ROPE - if he now chooses to hang himself with it, so be it. Stalwart111 07:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I’ve taken a look at this thread and I have a few thoughts:

The overriding problem on these articles is the dogged campaign of battleground and ad hominem which carolmooredc has pursued. This is manifest in various behaviors, among them, 1) a persistent strain of hostile personal remarks about other editors in her edit summary, article talk and noticeboard postings where the valid purposes of WP would be fully served by statements confined to WP content and policy. 2) A string of noticeboard postings that appear to be motivated either by personal animosity or her unwillingness to engage with those who disagree with her preferences regarding content. 3) A pattern of unsubstantiated statements and out-of-context or half-truth assertions on talk and noticeboard pages on which she is seeking validation for her views. (I am not saying these are intentional deceptions, but their effect is to confuse and derail the process on talk and noticeboard pages.)

All in, carolmooredc’s behavior is disruptive. She’s been told that on many, many occasions. Some recent examples:

• Here, she brought an ANI against me for using allegedly improper wording on various project pages to solicit comment on an RfC. After discussion by numerous editors, it was discovered that carolmooredc had posted wording substantially the same as my own on another project page. The issue boiled down not to what I had written but the fact that it had been I who wrote it.

[274] [275] [276]

• Here, with no prior warning, she brought another unfounded ANI against me:

[277]

• There are many more instances of her disruptive editing and personal attacks. Any reader who wishes to find them can do so on the noticeboard talk page and edit summary archives. Her messages are full of gratuitous ad hominems and other hostile remarks.

[278]

She’s been warned over and over about her disruptive behavior, for example: [279] [280]

With respect to the talk page templates referenced in this complaint: Each of them was preceded by my clear statement of the content and policy issues on the article pages. In each case, I posted the templates after the editors declined to respond to those statements. That is not apparent from the tone and content of OP’s complaint. Even if carolmooredc feels that 8 talk page templates were “baseless,” how does that stack up against the same number of noticeboards initiated by her, several of which resulted in her being rebuked for having brought them? She does not seem to get the message when others warn her about this behavior but I think it would be constructive for many articles if she would focus much more on content, and much less on editors, in her editing activity.
SPECIFICO talk 13:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Stalwart111, well put, thank you. Now I think I see how this is supposed to work. Doing nothing is not condoning. This is meant to be a notice that the behavior is now identified as disruptive. The editor is free to continue the disruptive behavior and face whatever comes with that, or change the behavior and happily ever after. Abel (talk) 14:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I hope editors will ignore User:SPECIFICOs exaggerated comments which are not supported by diffs. Regarding the actual diffs:

• After WP:DRN said cavassing was a behavior issue, I brought an ANI vs. SPECIFICO for doing 10 Wikiproject announcements which I thought at the time was totally out of proportion; as it happens others said that was too many. Live and learn. The closing admin did agree it was a "bit much." (I don't know what happened to the closing box; it's not in the archive.)
• Yes, I did a 3rr, after a brief notice; but SPECIFICO was busy removing so much generally positive info about Rothbard in a pattern of negative editing I'd see on other articles it seemed necessary; and the article was protected for two days because the admin did see that there was problematic editing going on.
• Actually the Talk libertarianism diff was a humorous one in the context of a group of disputing "radical" editors who would get the political point. But not relevant to our dispute.
• Re: the two diffs to User:SRich's comments. SRich comments constantly on other editor's alleged bad behavior, collapsing sections, removing comments, putting notices on user talk pages, etc. Sometimes he's right, other times he's being hypersensitive. But since he's good on editing policy issues, I cut him some slack. I don't see what he was commenting on but I have had to remind him a few times that Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Dealing_with_biased_contributors recommends we publiclly comment on biased editing. Since article talk pages are the first place to bring up issues under WP:Dispute, that's where I did so.

Obviously I have lost patience with User:SPECIFICO's biased editing. However, if I really was edit warring and those notices were legit I should have been taken to the appropriate noticeboard(s) long ago. The text of every notice and my responses are linked above and/or remain on my talk page. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 15:30, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I’ll respond to carolmooredc’s concern by giving two more examples, with diffs:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hans-Hermann_Hoppe&diff=561365894&oldid=561295338

carolmoore states she opposes user:Steeletrap’s edit due to the fact that it was Steeletrap who made the edit. carolmoore subsequently undid Steeletrap’s edit without further discussion or resolution of the matter on talk or elsewhere. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hans-Hermann_Hoppe&diff=561365157&oldid=561310951 carolmooredc’s derogation of user:Steeletrap and myself as “colleagues” and as “academics” is a persistent refrain.
There is no relationship between us. Per user pages: I am a businessperson. Steeletrap is a student.

• From this ANI: carolmooredc supports her condemnation of me writing: “Even Specifico admitted s/he would not like it if I went around to his favorite economists' articles and added WP:OR mentions of Friedrich Hayek's views that contradict some point made by the economist” [281] In fact I did not state or (nice word) “admit” that. She provides no diff and there is no such diff on WP. This kind of misstatement, (again I do not know or assert that it is intentional) is very damaging to the editing and dispute resolution processes here.

I stopped editing the Hoppe article due to carolmooredc’s harassment there. I also stopped editing Rothbard for an extended period but recently returned, erroneously thinking her behavior might not recur. Meanwhile, editor Steeletrap, who experienced these same behaviors from carolmooredc on a number of articles, appears to have left WP permanently. Any editor who is interested in looking at carolmooredc's tone in talk page, edit summary, and noticeboard comments will note that her statements habitually include gratuitous statements about editors and personalities instead of article text and policy.
SPECIFICO talk 17:25, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Again, User:SPECIFICO is blame shifting and focusing on me and others, rather than dealing with his/her specific incidents/behaviors listed at the top of this ANI. To reply: Re: this diff I provided ample evidence of the distain User:Steeletrap has for the subject of that BLP at this NPOVN. S/he doesn't try to dispute this in the relevant talk page section, does s/he? As for what I say SPECIFICO admitted, yes, I should have provided a diff. Saying he admitted actually was an overly generous interpretation of SPECIFICO saying "No" as his last entry in this talk page discussion. As you can see, he didn't bother to reply to my more important policy point regarding WP:OR. Thus I later removed the WP:OR in question. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 18:15, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that a frank discussion of our difficulties can be a constructive part of the ANI resolution process, per WP:BOOMERANG SPECIFICO talk 18:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Some comments on Abel’s remarks.

The first paragraph of Abels initial statement does not warrant a reply. It’s unsupported opinion and undefined accusations. Moving on,

1. Abel cites an edit of hers on the Hoppe article, 20:42 on 8 June 2013 [282]. The text Abel replaced was not written by me. I stopped editing Hoppe on May 24, Two weeks prior to Abel’s first edit of that article. I ask Abel either to explain the connection the inference he expects us to draw from his statement or to strike it through and retract it.

[Insert: text] Have never had a sex change. Have no plans to do so. Maybe one day I'll change my mind about that, but until I do, calling me a girl is inaccurate and not polite. Think SPECIFICO is right about Hoppe article. That interaction was actually from an anonymous editor who uses the exact same techniques as SPECIFICO, and while SPECIFICO has had plenty to say about that article, the edit that I was thinking was SPECIFICO's work could have been anyone. Abel (talk) 21:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

[Insert: text] Second time that I was called a girl by SPECIFICO. Seriously, this childish nonsense isn't helping you. Abel (talk) 23:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

[Insert: text] So after twice calling me a girl, SPECIFICO is now calling me a sexist. Abel (talk) 00:17, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

2. Abel says I began WP:HOUND him on June 21 at the Austrian school article. That’s an article I have been working on continuously and frequently for the past 9 months. Abel’s edits on that article are 2 edits in Feb. 2012 and 2 edits in June 2013. Abel, please review the policy statement that describes wikihounding and reconsider your statement that I hounded you at Austrian School. In the talk page comment Abel links at Austrian School, he complains that I reverted some text with a terse edit summary “removing unsourced content.” The text I reverted was in two parts, first an uncited and erroneous statement that the earliest group of Austrian economists included two later figures, Mises and Rothbard. The second part was Abel’s re-write of some text that had long been in the lede after extensive and detailed discussion on the article talk pages. Abel’s version, aside from not being supported by the cited reference, was poorly written and added a weasel reference to econometrics and some other very unclear text. My edit summary was terse but accurate and if Abel had posted a talk inquiry with anything less hostile than this out-of-the-blue personal attack on (me) [283] an editor he’d never previously encountered, the process might have gone perfectly smoothly. Instead, with some encouragement and ad hominem from carolmooredc, he posted an additional personal attack on me: [284] Another editor admonished Abel on his talk page and removed the second personal attack, [285], but Abel undid the removal and reinserted his personal attack on me at the article talk page and posted one more on Srich’s talk page. This is hard for me to understand. We’d never previously crossed paths and she has a detailed conspiracy theory to present.

[Insert: text] The hounding followed those edits, not a part of those edits. You followed me to another article that you had no interest in until I edited the Austrian School. Abel (talk) 21:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

3. Forgive me, I had planned to write about the rest of Abel’s complaint but I think that to do so would needlessly aggravate the discussion at this point. It is disappointing and troubling however that, after Srich had mentored Abel concerning his personal attacks on me, Abel then makes personal attacks in this noticeboard discussion. For the moment I am less optimistic than Srich that Abel has understood Srich’s remarks about good faith and civility. SPECIFICO talk 19:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

[Insert: text] So "would needlessly aggravate the discussion" is the same thing as "can't think up any nonsense that would sound plausible to someone who already agrees with me much less anyone else." I do like the cheap shot where you leave out that I discussed the personal attack claim with S. Rich and S. Rich agreed that his personal attack claim did not hold up. The only claim anyone had left against me was not assuming good faith. Ironically, this discussion has shown a complete lack of good faith, hence I did not need assumptions. The evidence that I considered to be obvious now has a plethora of support right here in this report. Abel (talk) 21:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

As before, I submit that an WP:IBAN is a viable solution for these editors. I suggested a one-way IBAN because SPECIFICO had not commented on this ANI. Now that he has, and reinforced the idea that this dispute is about the interaction between editors, I suggest the IBAN be two-three way. Give it a 30 day test run. Enforce it with blocks if an editor violates it. Editors should consider the wise words of WP:ANI Advice. To be truly courageous, mutually volunteer for the IBAN! Then we can post {{resolved}} at the top of this "discussion" and be done with the drama. – S. Rich (talk) 19:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Srich, I'm at a loss to understand why my silence would prompt you to propose a unilateral sanction against me. However, what's relevant at this point is that we should try to reach some common understanding of the problem before we moot various potential solutions. In short, I think you're jumping the gun here and we should let this discussion unfold according to the facts on the ground, so to speak. I would have remained silent were it not for several statements which seemed to indicate that some editors were taking my silence as an acknowledgement of the allegations presented here by carolmooredc and Abel. In fact, as you've noted before I have purposely avoided contentious noticeboard threads in the past and will do so in the future where silence is not seized on as an endorsement of various flawed accusations and misstatements. Anyway, first let's sort out the problem, then figure out the solution. There is some progress being made via the Hoppe, Rothbard, and Soto RfC and ORN threads, so it's all good. SPECIFICO talk 20:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

As a procedural matter, the ANI was focused on you, so I did not want to (and really could not) suggest a mutual IBAN without evidence – and doing so would have prompted more drama. (Moreover, I was not going to carry your water in this regard.) Consider, if the discussion had reached a conclusion during the week before you spoke up, then whatever sanction decided upon would be effective as to you. At that point, you could have brought up your points, in a new discussion, and argued for a mutual IBAN or relaxation of the uni-IBAN. (All you would have to do is say "I was out on a camping trip and didn't know the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor.") This particular ANI, in comparison to the other NB discussions, has more umpf to it, and I had expected a response from you. My suggestion was more geared towards getting a response. And now that you have responded, it reinforces my contention that this is an editor interaction problem. (Rember, I had suggested the IBAN for everyone in the past.) As you state above, there are a variety of accusations and misstatements. The accusations and misstatements are what have prompted this drama. Terse comments have not helped allay the tension. It is time for everyone to layoff from comments about each other and their particular edits. An IBAN, even if temporary, is the only way to go. – S. Rich (talk) 20:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

User:SPECIFICO: I think I stated the problem as I perceive it clearly in the first couple sentences of this ANI:

As noted elsewhere, User:SPECIFICO explicitly has stated he is an Austrian School economist who thinks those connected to the Ludwig von Mises Institute which he sees as a competing economics faction are "hijackers" and "multi-level marketing" schemers. He has made biased edits and reverts on several related articles and his POV is so strong he fails or refuses per IDIDNTHEARTHAT to understand clear explanations of policy.

You are under the impression other editors' POV is as strong as yours and that their opposition to your edits comes only because they have some "fringy" POV as opposed to your allegedly mainstream one. (Not that you can quote much evidence of that from Wikipedia postings in the case of the editors who have commented here.) You don't understand that long-term editors, no matter what their POV, develop a dedication to policy for more reasons than I can detail here. Hang around a few more years and maybe you will get that. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽

carolmooredc, your statement above this is entirely ad hominem and includes several of your personal speculations and inferences as to my beliefs and motivations. Please consider. Could you state your concern in a way that refers solely and specifically to editor behavior, which is the subject of the current ANI? I think it will be help focus and advance this discussion. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 20:50, 7 July 2013‎ (UTC)

Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Dealing_with_biased_contributors recommends bringing POV concerns to noticeboards as part of behavior, as I did earlier in greater detail at this NPOVN. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 21:00, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The harassment continues even now

• Yes, I screwed up the notice/question here but does that mean I have to endure intrusive comment after comment as I try to correct it? (just continue through the diffs to see them.) I just scratched the question because under that pressure it was hard to focus on what the general question that I was trying to direct only to the policy talk page was.
• Yes, User Abel screwed up the [Insert] format but SPECIFICO had to comment and criticize here and then comment and criticize in another thread on another topic here. S/he doesn't realize sometimes it's better to just let people screw up on talk pages rather than nitpick and harass them. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 23:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

At this point, it is all just sad attempts to avoid responsibility. Which leads me to, even more, see the value in Stalwart111's argument for largely doing nothing now, and just wait an see if the behavior continues or stops. Also, thank you to Carol for telling me about the [Insert] format, didn't know that was even a thing until you mentioned it. Abel (talk) 00:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Request for Dismissal as WP:Battleground. This ANI is a straightforward case of WP:Battleground. As SPECIFICO's numerous diffs posted above indicate, and I (or the talk page of any article where SPECIFICO and Carol are both aactive) can attest to, Carol's criticisms of SPECIFICO's edits are centered around personal attacks. The only references to content issues she makes in these criticisms are vague, unspecified charges rather than substantive citations of policy. For instance, on the talk page of Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Carol repeatedly asserts the term "BLP" but virtually never details specific BLP policies that are violated, instead focusing on how SPECIFICO or myself are out to defame people when she disapproves of edits we make to Hoppe's entries). This ANI is about a personal grudge, and therefore should be dismissed. Steeletrap (talk) 03:40, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

That WP:Battleground claim, which might be totally accurate for the interaction between Carolmooredc and SPECIFICO, completely ignores every diff I cited showing disruptive editing. There are many. Abel (talk) 13:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

(EC)Well lets see, you linked to his edit-history, not exactly useful as no one is going to trawl through it to find out what you think its showing. You accused him of wikihounding without providing any evidence/supporting diffs. Interacting with an editor who has been editing in that topic area needs more than mere accusations. For wikihounding you need to present clear evidence that the editor has followed your editing and has been making edits to be disruptive. Bear in mind, if an editor notices a problem with another editors editing, it is good practice to check they have not been making similar mistakes elsewhere. This is why its very difficult to proove wiki-hounding. Most of the rest of your links to revisions show SPECIFICO editing articles. You have not said *why* his editing is disruptive. Only that it is. Which is pretty much the same for both you and CarolMooreDC, lots of links and vague hand-wavy accusations but very little on outright evidence or explanations. This is why none of the previous noticeboards took much notice. Absent actual clear evidence and supporting diffs of policy-violating editing, nothing will be done. If you want something to be done, the clearest and best way is to say 'Here is the policy they are violating' 'here is a diff supporting it' 'this is why this edit violates it'. Merely being in a content dispute with another editor is not 'disruptive editing'. (EC) See below. Lots of accusations and soapboxing but no actual evidence Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:44, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Given this comment elsewhere by User:Stalwart111:

"The Mises/Austrian stuff has been going on for years but has been particularly nasty over the last 6 months or so. You are witness to the latest battle in a long-running war (I'm not sure whether you've experienced any of the history). Editors have been topic banned, indef'd, etc. and the POV has proven to go both ways. The benefit of the "walled garden" I've mentioned is that most of the conflict has happened behind those walls. But bringing it to ANI means more attention. Maybe that's a good thing for WP as a whole, but I don't think it would be pleasant for those involved."

It seems to me that I can no longer waste my time on any contentious articles - especially BLPs where I get most annoyed - since blatant POV pushing is dismissed even when several editors complain. I much better spend my time on personal writings and political activism than on trying to make Wikipedia editors abide by NPOV regarding people/views they despise, be it Palestinians/Critics of Israel/Austrian economists of one narrow school/libertarianism/libertarianism that's too capitalist or too socialist/Sexually abused women falsely accused of murder(Casey Anthony - IMHO)/Uppity Women, etc. So feel free to trash away, I won't be watching those pages any more. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 14:40, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

If by "elsewhere" you mean on my talk page in the context of a day-long conversation with the person who supported your complaint here, then yes. I made that comment and I stand by it. Even you have recognised and noted this thread is not the first "salvo" in this conflict. But I honestly have no idea what the connection is between that comment and "sexually abused women falsely accused of murder". You've lost me there. Stalwart111 15:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

[Insert: Just to clarify, I was moving from your good insight at your talk page to a generalization that was not about you, in case there's any confusion. Just ranting about too many articles I've wasted time on for 7 years where the bias and hatred were all pervasive and disruptive and appeals to the community were time consuming and effective only sometimes, and often then only for a short time. I'm taking the advice of editors who have said they just stay away from those types of articles to ensure a more pleasant experience. I've been waiting a while for the straw to break the sexagenarians back and blessed be!, it has finally floated down from the heavens! User:Carolmooredc 18:36, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Don't be a jerk now. Arkon (talk) 17:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing jerk-like about giving up on a horribly flawed system. Above Only in death does duty end said I had no support for my claims when that would only be valid if we were talking about SPECIFICO, yet I am not SPECIFICO. I can see how enough of that would drive anyone up a wall and giving up would become the only rational course. Abel (talk) 21:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

FYI, he's referring to one of my little meta messages which I put up temporarily when I'm annoyed but this is the first time someone noticed. I actually found an extremely similar and even better one I can use permanently, linking to Don't Be a Dick. Which not that I think of it neatly summarizes the basic message of this whole complaint and thread!

To quote the essay: "Don't be a dick" is a fundamental rule of all social spaces. Every other policy for getting along with other humans is a special case of it. Although nobody is expected to ban or block somebody for dickery (as this itself would be an instance of such), it is still a bad idea to be a dick. So don't be one. If a significant number of reasonable people suggest, whether bluntly or politely, that you are being a dick, the odds are good that you are not entirely in the right.

While not the best solution, good enough for this Specifico ANI, I guess. The end?? User:Carolmooredc 15:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

My experience suggests that Wikipedia policy means whatever the most aggressive person says it does. When it takes minutes to dismantle and hours to rebuild after who knows how much work, this whole system is a mess. Seems like any effort is just going to waste. Abel (talk) 20:47, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

So no one answers, and not only has this been archived, but SPECIFICO has returned to his disruptive editing. Which disproves the Wikipedia:ROPE theory. In searching the archive noticed that SPECIFICO has multiple reports of disruptive editing. One of which was closed in deference to this discussion that has produced nothing. I am inclined to call this more evidence for my theory that this system is horribly broken. Abel (talk) 13:48, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Daniel Case

I was surprised with Daniel Case (talk · contribs) would not act on a blatant username policy violation reported to UAA but really surprised when he chose to taunt on my talk page here when I questioned the decision. Is this the kind of behavior that other admins expected when he was granted admin privileges? This is not something expected of such an experienced editor. Some additional admin perspective on both the UAA decision and Case's comments on my talk page would be appreciated here.--RadioFan (talk) 03:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll leave it to others to comment on that, but one thing most people expect whether you're an admin or not is that you will notify people when you start AN/I threads on them and not leave it up to the notifications system. Daniel Case (talk) 03:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, which is why I did precisely that on your talk page here. You must have missed it since you posted the above 5 minutes after I added the ANI notice to your talk page.--RadioFan (talk) 03:34, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• The UAA decision was sound. Blocks are not enacted on editors that are not actively editing, period. If someone isn't editing Wikipedia, there's no need for any blocks. --Jayron32 03:53, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• My perspective is that the username was editing AFC pages for the same name (as its username) as seen by the history, this is promotional and should be blocked under WP:SPAMNAME, (Though this is admin discretion most times if they notice other aspects around it). This other than violating username policies is also a promotion only account dealing with edits with a promotional intent. As for the conversation issue brought here, WP is an area with a wide variety of admins and editors, from different regions and age groups. The kind of language some editors regard as cool or hip is sometimes termed as rude by others, I do see some issues with rudeness here but nothing to bring it to an ANI.  A m i t  ❤  05:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I concur with Jayron32. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 06:01, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Not sure where the taunting is... you were snarky to Daniel, and he was snarky right back at you... I would suggest dropping the WP:STICK. Crazynas ^t 06:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• There was no snark intended in my reply to the UAA or question posted on his talk page. Intention was to question the decision. --RadioFan (talk) 11:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

It certainly was snarky, and you know it. You know, User:Orangemike was brought to this very page a couple of weeks ago for instantly blocking usernames ... and WP:CONSENSUS has been to give the benefit of the doubt and give them a chance to change their username once they have been advised of their error. This is an editor who has not edited in exactly a week ... and you want them blocked? If they make a single additional edit that is promotional without changing the username, I'll block them myself ... but chastizing an admin for following consensus seems a bit odd. A block right now is most certainly not preventing anything ... except for perhaps your own aneurysm (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I actually think it's beyond snarky to say " I've reported many of these over the years as I new page patrol and I've never had something so blatant rejected." That is, to me, insulting. As if it's my job to just bow down, genuflect and execute what His Majesty pleases. It is deficient in good faith and in every way contrary to how Wikipedians are supposed to interact.

Further problematic is the fact that, after I explained briefly why I didn't make the block, he came right back with the same exact arguments as before. He also made sure to repeat them at UAA.

Sorry, I should just let him drop the stick but I felt the discussion was a little better with my perspective. Daniel Case (talk) 20:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Timeline

• 14:18, 6 July 2013 RF declines User:IntelCapital's AFC nomination
• 18:20, 6 July 2013 DC declines RF's UAA block request
• 19:30, 6 July 2013 RF questions DC's decision on UAA
• 19:21, 6 July 2013 RF questions the decision on DC's talk page
• 19:56–20:35, 6 July 2013 Discussion on RF's talk page
• 21:35, 6 July 2013 RF templates IC's talk page with user name warning
• 02:35, 8 July 2013 Discussion on RF's talk page continued

The user name warning that RF put on IC's talk page seems strange. In part it reads "I noticed that your username, "IntelCapital", may not meet Wikipedia's username policy because blatant violation of wikipedia's username policy." "Blatant" seems weird. The nearest likeness I could find was Template:Uw-username but it doesn't contain "blatant". Is it usual for patrollers to amp up the rhetoric on template warnings? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:02, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• I would also point out that 'Intel' has other meanings than just a chip company, which is why allowing them to actually edit is important. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 17:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• I think it reasonable to assume that the meaning here matches the meaning in the one and only article this user edited. --RadioFan (talk) 17:34, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• The last time I looked, an editor could be called Coca Cola provided they didn't edit Coca Cola. But that was a while ago and things may have changed. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:42, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I would still let someone edit under those circumstances. Daniel Case (talk) 20:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes true, it doesn't mean that if an id with name apple is there and he cannot edit apple inc's article. Unless the intent is not promotional it is not causing any issue. But in this case the only edits the user did was create an article of the same name and push for publishing of it in article space, i.e. it became the sole purpose of the account. That said - in this context - this is surely not an account naming issue.  A m i t  ❤  20:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

CFB North Bay and User:22WHERO

1. Conflict of interest: The CFB North Bay article has been mostly written by User:22WHERO, who has asserted many times he is an employee of the base. In fact, maintaining this article seems to be an official policy of the base: [the page] was a dog's breakfast of omissions and inaccurate data, that reflected badly on our base. Our command and senior staff were unhappy, to say the least. In 2011 we began a wholesale re-write of the page.
2. Unverifiable sources: CFB North Bay uses unusual and unverifiable sources, such as "22 Wing Heritage Office Photo Archives", "22 Wing/Canadian Forces Base North Bay Archives, various documents", "remark to NORAD officers in training at North Bay, fall 1986" and "E-mail to CFB North Bay Wing Heritage Office, 21 December 2011". In fact, a footnote explicitly says: "Referenced documents cited in this and following sections are from the air base's archives and active files, which have file numbers, publication numbers and registration numbers that may be unfamiliar to those without a military background, although the information's accuracy is assured."
3. Unreferenced material: Although some of the content has references (but mostly unverifiable), many large paragraphs and whole sections have no citations.
4. Improper behaviour: User:22WHERO has written on the talk page of several users who tried to modify the article and asked to refrain from modifying anything without contacting himself by using an official forces.gc.ca email address. The tone is rather striking: "we request that you contact me -- the Wing Heritage Officer -- by the Wikipedia Talk medium before attempting more edits. Not only am I the Wing Heritage Officer, official subject matter expert on 22 Wing/CFB North Bay and its history, but I am a NORAD officer with over 25 years' service on the base. You can also contact me at [email protected]"
5. Reverts: User:22WHERO has a habit of reverting edits without discussion or edit summaries. I have attempted to add OR, primary and refimprove notices, only to have them reverted twice today without discussion. I did not want to trap the user by allowing him to revert a third time. There has been several threads started on the talk page, but the main editors have never responded constructively.
6. Sockpuppets: It would seem that User:22wingheritageoffice is another account used by the base's employees to modify the article, but it hasn't been used since 8 September 2009, the same day User:Benlisquare notified the user on the talk page (last edit of 4) that his behaviour was inappropriate. User:22WHERO later attempted to remove this message, but User:Benlisquare restored it. User:22WHERO then added a personal attack as a follow up.

I'm not exactly sure what to do with this. The article is in a very poor state, but I'm honestly very uncomfortable with trying to do anything with it. The aggressive stance of User:22WHERO, as well as his credentials, made me hesitate before posting this. But I think it's important. I have no specific recommendations for now, I just wish to make this public and get advice on how to proceed. pm (talk) 15:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I have subsequently received a message on my talk page from User:22WHERO, but it was probably written before he had knowledge of this ANI. pm (talk) 16:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

It just occurred to be that all this may have been done in good faith. The latest message posted on my talk page gives me the impression that User:22WHERO has little to no knowledge of how wikipedia operates. pm (talk) 17:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I've left a personal note on 22WHERO's talk page, hopefully to get them to reduce (or stop entirely) blind reverts and use the article talk page. Personalmountains, you can also help by being more specific about your concerns (see my note on the article talk page about that) and trying to draw 22WHERO into discussions. I think there is some WP:OWN here simply from the massive amount of work that's been done. For better or worse, they are a WP:SPA but not a hostile one. Some patience and pointers/explanations/education about the various wikipedia policies may prove all that's needed here. Ravensfire (talk) 18:03, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I assumed that the user was aware of the various policies, which may have been a mistake. I felt the comments left on some of the editor's talk pages were highly inappropriate, but again, I may have read too much into them. I'm looking forward to reading 22WHERO's feedback.

As for specific concerns, the whole article is undercited, with complete subsections without references. I decided to put the refimprove on top because it applies to the whole article as well as several subsections. The original research and primary sources also apply to the article as a whole. The whole thing sounds like a personal essay from a base's employee (in fact, it was already tagged as such). I'd be happy to go into more details in the article's talk page once 22WHERO weighs in. pm (talk) 18:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Don't have time for more input, so I'll just comment on your #3 "Unverifiable sources". These definitely sound like high-quality archival sources, and any solid secondary source will use documents such as them — they're nowhere near unverifiable. The problem is that "22 Wing Heritage Office Photo Archives", "22 Wing/Canadian Forces Base North Bay Archives, various documents", "remark to NORAD officers in training at North Bay, fall 1986" and "E-mail to CFB North Bay Wing Heritage Office, 21 December 2011" are all primary sources, so we shouldn't be using them except in rare circumstances, and the extensive use you describe is inappropriate. Nyttend (talk) 19:39, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Without investigating further, those are not only primary sources, but self-published, and they are reported to be unduly self-serving. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:51, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

User:AndyTheGrump

WP:DENY. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Look at the contribs of User:AndyTheGrump, and you will begin to see a pattern of assuming bad faith. --ßaenburger (talk) 20:38, 9 July 2013 (UTC) Technoquat. New User. Vandalism: [286][287] followed by ref desk posting on 'The psychology of trolls and vandals' [288]. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC) I am a new user, but all I did was ask a question at the Ref desk, only for it to be deleted. Not a troll, not a vandal, just look at my edits and make up your own mind. AndyTheGrump is biting newcomers. --ßaenburger (talk) 20:44, 9 July 2013 (UTC) CheckUser supports AndyTheGrump's theory. ßaenburger (talk · contribs) has been blocked. Tiptoety talk 20:50, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Tony1

Tony1 (talk · contribs) to gain the advantage of a favored position, with any objections to the way he went about matters, which included email canvassing, for a proposal at WT:FAC, has three times moved edits which were properly put where they are, to a place where editors' eyes will not see the objections readily. In other words, he is edit warring. I would ask an admin to revert and to render a preventative sanction to Tony1 which is justified by his past record, which is not small. The reverts are here and here and [289]. The canvassing included this. Notice to him--Wehwalt (talk) 09:09, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Note that his initial statement there is far longer than fifty words. Why should he be entitled to set rules which he is not prepared to abide by?--Wehwalt (talk) 12:26, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Isn't it relatively commonplace to do this in RfCs? The initial proposal would obviously be longer than fifty words; I'm baffled as to why you think that's an issue, or why you're starting a storm in a teacup over this point... Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 14:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I do not think one person can fairly be both an advocate and a judge.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:27, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure this is WP:EDITWARRING?? Has the editor continued to move other editors comments after you said to him to not touch the comments. If not then this is a non-issue. If he is continuing to mess up other peoples contributions to the talk page then I feel he needs to be explained about what talk page vandalism means and in this case this is not the users talk page to set rules or own it in any manner.  A m i t  ❤  17:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Wehwalt, your first and third diffs are in fact two consecutive edits by Tony1, and thus would generally be considered a single revert (as a long-term admin, I'm sure you're aware of that). Your second diff precedes the first and third diffs chronologically, and appears to represent an initial move and not a revert. The way you've presented this edit-warring complaint makes it very difficult to parse. It appears that Tony moved the comments, you reverted, then Tony reverted you - that is, technically you're both at 1 revert. If I'm wrong, please correct me by providing a clearer chronology, as one would expect from a formal report on edit-warring.

  I'm not condoning any of the reverting; right now, I see two (well, actually more than two) editors who should know better arguing about incidentals like comment placement and length, and I see a discussion filled with so much personalized venom that it's impossible to make sense of the actual issue under discussion. I think all of you can do better. MastCell ^Talk 18:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

MastCell, please don't imply that any venom is coming from me. Tony (talk) 01:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• This would seem to be an interesting and instructive knee-jerk. WP discussions are usually resolved on a "weight of arguments" basis, but the supposed "upgrading" of vote seems to have been vendetta-backed and not policy-backed. -- Ohc ^¡digame!_{¿que pasa?} 02:02, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• It looks like the discussion is back on track now. [290] Hope everyone is well. Neotarf (talk) 03:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• I do not see that any sanctions are warranted, but I would like to comment that normally a proposal such as this[291] is discussed before presenting it as an RfC, and the 50 word limit is particularly unusual considering that the proposal consisted of over 300 words. Normally it is counterproductive for someone to attempt to micromanage a discussion by attempting to move user comments around from one section to another, and certainly the first thing that should have happened was a question on the offending users talk page, "do you mind if I move your comments to the discussion section", instead of just moving them. Apteva (talk) 03:10, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Assistance with Arizona State University

Hi all. I am hoping that someone might chime in on a minor ongoing dispute at Arizona State University. A while back, a new editor (often posting via IP, sometimes as JavierPHX2013), began making edits--some of which are fine, and some of which are a bit problematic. The general issue is that some of his edits are inserted without adequate sources, and the editor will claim "common knowledge" (see, for example, the discussion Talk:Arizona_State_University#Lede_-_to_Anon_editor here). Perhaps a bigger issue is that this editor inserts info first, and then reverts any attempt to change it, arguing that the burden is on me and others to prove that his info is not correct (even if it is unsourced). Perhaps it's because I'm geting old and cranky, but I can't stand to see somebody presenting unverified, opinion-based, or marketing-department info as fact. I think the editor means well, but nothing I say seems to sink in. One current example can be seen here, in which the editor claims that the school is a "metropolitan" university in the first sentence of the article. I don't know what that is, ASU doesn't claim itself to be that (except in random PR-text from a decade ago), no external source or official list defines what that is, and as far as I can tell, it's a totally arbitrary term. There is debate on the talk page about it, but this editor still reverts any attempt to remove the term while it's under debate. -Nick^talk 23:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, it sounds like they are engaging in sockpuppetry right now (or meatpuppetry at the very least), so they could be blocked for that, in addition to the above issues, which are concerning in their own right. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 05:52, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

User will not understand original research

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Could we have some OR-experienced eyes over at Talk:Manor of Molland, please? Lobsterthermidor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and I have reached a clear impasse there, and one of us must be completely in the wrong. Either he has been adding original research to many articles for a year or more, or I am obsessing about nothing at all. I'm asking here, rather than taking the dispute resolution route, because if I'm right he ought to be stopped quickly before he can damage WP any further. That he does not understand the significance of OR is indicated by this statement he made on 3 July: "I am acutely aware of the problem of OR, which is why I have been studying the WP guidelines on how to make citations."[292]

The discussion that led up to the impasse is on CaroleHenson's talk page here, though that was just the latest round of discussions that have taken place on several talk pages from earlier in June. Other relevant messages were posted on his talk page, from this one of 21 June onwards.

Other problems include incivility (some of which I summarised in para 2 here), and less importantly his failure to provide clear references (see 2nd collapsed list here, for example) and non-compliance with WP:MOS. I can provide more examples etc., if requested. Thanks,  —SMALLJIM  21:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Here are some diffs of removal or flagging of OR that was added by Lobsterthermidor: [293], [294], [295], [296] (see under Tardrew), [297] (removal by Lobsterthermidor), [298] (see bottom), [299], [300] (interpretation of primary source), [301].  —SMALLJIM  23:15, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

"I am acutely aware of the problem of OR, which is why I have been studying the WP guidelines on how to make citations" the purpose of which was so that I could add proper in-line citations to provide sources for text tagged OR! The context of that comment was during a very recent whirlwind series of edits to an article created by me (Annery, Monkleigh) by a third editor (auto-confirmed user) who changed all my citation styles to one preferred by her and gave me the impression that I had to follow that style. That I was determined to do, relying on her experience and authority, hence I decided to make no more edits, including supplying sources to OR tags, until I had learned the new style. (See my talk page 29 June 2013: "Thanks Carole, I think you'll like my citations better in future. It was a bit of a rough lesson, but if that's how it's got to be done, I'm willing to do it"). During that self re-education process, I learned to my surprise that I was perfectly OK to use my existing cite style (which doesn't use cite templates) per WP:CITEVAR.

There is no question as to my great goodwill to every aspect of the WP project or of my total good faith. To read that I am accused of "damaging WP" is a great surprise to me and wholly inaccurate. I think the good quality of any article I have created will support that. I don't claim any is perfect or error free, but I'm proud of all my work contributed and believe it improves Wikipedia.

I would estimate that over 95% of all my challenges in 3 years editing have come from this one editor above, (as my archived talk page will evidence) whose demands for sources are becoming in my opinion increasingly unreasonable, obsessive and hysterical. My article contributed on Manor of Molland already had over 100 line-refs provided and is well sourced, albeit not perfect. I'm trying to improve it and my other articles all the time. Why is no one else demanding sources from me all the time? Where are the OR and cn tags on all my other articles contributed which this editor hasn't critically reviewed? I draw the conclusion from lack of cn tags elsewhere that the community and readers are generally happy with my work.

See the latest exchanges on Talk:Manor of Molland between this editor and myself. Even when I have supplied a clear-cut source, most recently for example the simple and totally non-controversial fact stated by me in Manor of Molland "that the estate of Wonwell was in the parish of Kingston, Devon", (I replied: "My source given was Risdon, p. 182, which under the paragraph heading "KINGSTON" (in capitals), states 8 lines below "In this parish is Wonwell") he continues to challenge this simple point to an absurd quasi-forensic level. I have expressed my opinion to him on that article's talk page - in the most civil terms - that his behaviour has become unreasonable and is in my opinion bordering on the obsessive and that I will not be drawn into endless argument about a challenge I have sourced to the standard required by a reasonable person. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 23:21, 7 July 2013 (UTC))

Staying on topic of original research: I have yet to see sources provided where there are questions of original research or uncited information.

There seems to be a new tactic to cover up original research / uncited information of Prust family members by putting in notes instead of true citations, which makes it look on the surface that there's a citation: fifth paragraph of the Coffin section. I had researched Hugh Prust for the Annery, Monkleigh article to address the original research tag and not found sources for Hugh Prust at [302]--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I am confident that the matter can be resolved by reference to the will of Hugh Prust, which should qualify as a source under publicly available archival material in WP:Verify (in footnote 6). This is a source I am aware of, thus not OR, but which is difficult to obtain. I will order it by credit card and share the results with you. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 03:17, 8 July 2013 (UTC))

Will now consulted [303] and does not support my text. I was in error to mention Hugh Prust (d.1651) as "of Annery", I should have mentioned instead his brother Joseph Prust (d.1677) of Annery, where this fact is clearly stated on a verifiable source, namely his ledger stone in the Annery Chapel of Monkleigh Church, which I have myself transcribed as follows: "Here lieth interred Joseph Prust of Annerie gent...obiit (he died) Oct 1677...". I am able and willing to supply a photograph of this ledger-stone with inscription in evidence if required. This was careless with regard to proper sourcing, and would thus qualify as OR. I regret this error of mine and any similar I might have made in not following with adequate care WP guidelines in this area. I undertake to continue my editing activity with much greater regard to meeting this OR guideline. I trust this matter may now be adjudicated. Many thanks, and my apologies to the wider Wikipedia community for any breaches I have made. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 09:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC))

At this late stage let me try a different tack, Lobsterthermidor, because I still can't see that you understand. I hope you'll listen to me in this venue, because if I'm wrong I will be quickly corrected.

As the OR policy (not guideline) states in its nutshell: "Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source."

So the error you mention above regarding Hugh Prust is indeed technically OR, because there was no reliable, published source for it; but is of the very simplest sort – a mere mistake. OR goes far beyond this. It covers matters such as:

• making comments on sources: [304] (in reference), [305]
• personal observation: [306] (at bottom), [307]
• drawing inferences that the source does not state: example 4 on Talk:Manor of Molland and here under Tardrew
• interpretation of primary sources: [308]
• the expansion of text in an inscription: [309]
• and the addition of content that looks as if it's part of the source, but which is not: [310] (I've seen more examples of this, but can't locate at present).

This last example is potentially the worst because it also misrepresents the source and can mislead readers who don't (or can't) check.

Even if all of these additions are valid and correct, we cannot include them because WP does not publish material for which there is no reliable source.

Does that make it any clearer?  —SMALLJIM  13:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I have studied all your comments and the links given above and I fully understand the points you have made concerning OR. It does indeed make it very clear. I would like to confirm again that I regret these errors of mine I have made in not following with adequate care and attention the WP policy on OR. I undertake to continue my editing activity with very great regard to ensuring my full compliance with the OR policy. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 15:27, 8 July 2013 (UTC))

A quick comment. From what I've seen of Lobster's editing, I think he's making good faith edits. He clearly researches deeply into the topics concerned, cares passionately about the topics he edits and I'm strongly inclined to assume good faith in terms of any mistakes. I would urge him, though, to pay very close attention to the policies on OR, whether in terms of interpretation, speculation and use of primary sources; I can well understand the frustrations of others who are faced with checking the details of his edits! It would be a real shame to lose a committed and well-informed editor, but I can see that happening unless more care is taken on the OR front. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:07, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

This seems to be great progress - and I've seen a bit of good work on resolving a couple of uncited sentences for Talk:Manor of Monkleigh. Since there's acknowledgement that WP is not a forum for original research, and the need for reliable published sources, does it make sense to identify a couple issues to start with to tackle open issues from the Talk:Manor of Molland#There are still problems page/section?--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:52, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that's necessary, Carole. As I've pointed out, they are individually not very significant issues. I'll amend them and trust that Lt will agree with the (minor) changes.  —SMALLJIM  19:09, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec)

Thanks for that, Lobsterthermidor. On the basis of what you say, and in agreement with Hchc2009's remarks, I'm happy to leave this section to be archived now, even though we've had no true third party input. After archiving, I'll tag the pages with {{Original research}} (per this), add a brief talk page message pointing here (as it provides a good summary) and for ease of reference, will keep a temporary list of the pages so tagged at User:Smalljim/Pages I have tagged with OR. I'm sure that when we bump into one another again (as we doubtless will do somewhere in Devon-space) we'll both have benefited from what we've learned here. By the way, I sat in the sun this afternoon with a printout of the latest version of Manor of Molland and can definitely say that it reads better on paper.  —SMALLJIM  19:02, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

If there's an interest, LT:

• there's just a couple of minor things for Manor of Monkleigh - I've researched the best I could and there's just a little bit more information needed to create citations. See Talk:Manor of Monkleigh.
• citation needed tags for Joseph Watson, 1st Baron Manton‎. I couldn't find good info for Joseph Watson, so I did all I could there, too.
• Original research? tags and citation needed tags for Siston. This a work in progress.

There are other articles, too, but these are the ones needing the most work - or in one case, just needs a bit of info.--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Or, should I just assume that content is original research - and remove it - if I'm unable to find sources for it?--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

In general, yes. If there's no source in the article and you can't find one either, WP:OR is a good assumption. Don't get in over your head, though: if someone is looking at an article on particle physics and doesn't know a lot about particle physics, a lot of things can appear to be WP:OR when it's actually just a comprehension problem.—Kww(talk) 21:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Makes sense, thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 23:43, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I have benefitted greatly from all the points made by all the contributors above and my editing style will change to follow the OR policy, which I now fully understand, scrupulously. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 08:44, 9 July 2013 (UTC))

After all this conversation about uncited, original research information - there is continued attempts to add detailed and mostly uncited information to Annery, Monkleigh. See Talk:Annery, Monkleigh#Lots of biographical info duplicated in articles about towns, villages and manors.--CaroleHenson (talk) 17:32, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Continuing incivility

I pointed out in the first post here that one of the other problems with Lobsterthermidor is his incivility, and that I've cautioned him several times about this [311], [312] and here (point 1 and last para). Yet he persists, today, in belittling CaroleHenson when she makes a mistake [313] (edit summary), [314]. Since my last message to him about this behaviour he has also been extremely rude to me - in terms which do not bother me, but which, I am certain, would upset others. e.g. [315] (last para in particular), [316], [317] and [318] (on this page). I note that he was blocked when he was a newbie on a related issue. Might it be time to apply the cluestick a little harder? I'm obviously well involved, so can't do anything. Thanks,  —SMALLJIM  15:16, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I am very sad today because I thought we had made progress - and then I found messages on my talk page. Please see Talk:Manor of Monkleigh#Recent comments (original at User talk:CaroleHenson#Attention to detail. One of which he blamed me for something he did.--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.