Talk:Voiceless alveolar lateral affricate

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Mexican Spanish also have this sound

Nahuatl spoken in Mexico influenced Spanish spoken in Mexico and nowdays words such as "tlapalería" and "atlas" are pronounced with /tɬ/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuuagso (talk • contribs) 19:09, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. I recently read that somewhere and added it to Spanish phonology. Now I've put it in this article. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 20:52, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for add Mexcian Spanish, but I just wanted to say that Xóchitl is pronunced /'sotʃitɬ/, I mean that "x" at the beggining is pronounced like /s/ and not like /ʃ/. Yes the "x" can have that sound, specially in words taken from Nahuatl like "axolotl", but in some words like "Xochimilco" or "Xochitl", the "x" is pronounced /s/. I'm Mexican.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuuagso (talk • contribs) 03:13, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have some doubts about the existence (or better usage) of /tɬ/ in most Mexican Spanish accents.

1) The source provided states that Mexican Spanish have 3 additional realizations from Nahuatl origin: /ʃ/ (transcribed by Lope with "š"), /ts/ (transcribed with "ŝ") and the sound described in a non-standard Spanish as "l licuante de t", which stems, according to the author, from the denti-alveolar (lateral) affricate in Nahuatl. This sound hasn't only merged with /t.l/ (Atlántico 'Atlantic') in Mexico and Mexican-influenced dialects across Latin America, but also with /tl/ (Tlemcén 'Tlemcen') and /te/ (aguacate 'avocado') according to my analyses, and in the case of /te/ also according to several studies.

2) Most speakers I've listened on Forvo, use /tl/ and [(tᵊ)l] (note the insertion of an epenthentic vowel or the production of a vocalic release (ɨ, ʉ, ë̞/ə, etc.) between an obstruent and a liquid usually occurs in Spanish, Catalan and Portuguese. Some Catalan accents, for instance, merge sequences of obstruents + /ə/ + rhotics with sequences of obstruents and rhotics (e.g. pro 'pro' and però 'but'). In addition, the same accents also reduce obstruents + /ə/ + rhotics to obstruents + rhotics (veritat → vritat, cf. Portuguese para → pra 'for'). Therefore, the final sequence /te/ in aguacate and coyote is probably linked to this process as well as to coda simplification produced by the contact with the Iberian languages (notably Spanish), rather than being a positional allophone in Nahuatl.

To conclude I have some questions, 1) How should l liquante de t be interpreted? 2) Are there any Mexicans who don't replace /tɬ/ by /tl/ (and perhaps /te/) when speaking Spanish? 3) Would be relevant to use /tɬ/ in Spanish transcriptions (e.g. are there any names or last names pronounced with it?)? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 18:16, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've just checked Tenochtitlan is transcribed [tenotʃˈtitlan]) in Spanish and [tenoːtʃˈtitɬan] in Nahuatl, so I suppose this is how it should be pronounced and adapted in Spanish. This is similar to how final ll [l] from Catalan names are adapted in this language (Ripoll), therefore I’d say we don't need to transcribe /tɬ/. (I would like to add /ʃ/ is also replaced by other phonemes, however unlike /tɬ/ and final /ʎ/, /ʃ/ has more prestige and is more popular (among some groups) due to its usage in international loanwords from English and French). — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 18:22, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is it used in the Klingon language?

Isn't this also the sound represented by "tlh" in the Klingon language? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TristanAidan (talk • contribs) 20:37, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Probably, but we're only adding modern natural languages. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 20:57, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a short comment like "this phoneme was also chosen by linguist Marc Okrand as part of the phonological ivnentory of the Klingon language" after the table depicting natural occurances is in order? 188.169.229.30 (talk) 23:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't seem notable enough to me. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 04:24, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]