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Flag of the President

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In this very recent BBC news story, the video of President Saakashvili has another flag: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7548715.stm

Anyone know which presidential flag this is?

Azalea pomp (talk) 17:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of presidents

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Table will probably have to be later re-edited to include all leaders since the creation of the republic. 66.59.156.141 (talk) 20:22, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Commons files used on this page have been nominated for speedy deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:52, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge of Administration of the President of Georgia into President of Georgia

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As written it's not clear how the "Administration of the President of Georgia" is distinct from the office itself; we do not typically create separate articles for a given executive office's staff. It seems like it would be most useful to readers to have this information all in one place, namely President of Georgia signed, Rosguill talk 18:55, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  checkY Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 11:56, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New president on Monday

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[1] This says the president's term ends Monday, i.e. Dec. 16, 2024, so I suppose the new president also takes office that same day. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 19:44, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[2] Her term ends Dec. 16 and his inauguration is scheduled for Dec. 29. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 22:11, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[3] According to this, her term ends Dec. 29, so we have contradictory sources. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 19:03, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Her term is supposed to end on December 29, no December 16. According to some constitutionalists and all political opposition, she will continue to be "legitimate" president even after Dec 29th depending how things happen.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 20:19, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Next big event likely on 29 Dec: subsection/later split

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@Coppertwig and LeontinaVarlamonva: I started the subsection President of Georgia#2024 succession dispute, which might need to be WP:SPLIT off depending on what events happen on 29 Dec, and if western mainstream media decide to focus lots of attention on those events. I suggest that interested editors start off by developing this section within this article, and considering a split if/when it becomes too big out of proportion to the overall topic of President of Georgia. For a descriptive article WP:TITLE, rather than 2024 Georgian presidential succession dispute, I would suggest 2024–2025 Georgian constitutional crisis, since the topic really concerns both the parliamentary and presidential elections, and whatever happens 29 Dec and later, and is related to 2024 Georgian post-election protests, but is not the same thing. A WP:COMMONNAME title might emerge later. In principle, 2024–2025 Georgian constitutional crisis could be started now, although the risk is that it only be a re-hash of other existing content; it's not clear if the sources agree that this is a constitutional crisis (I haven't actually searched, though); and we can't yet be sure that the crisis will continue into 2025 (even if that seems likely). Boud (talk) 16:35, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think waiting and seeing what happens on 29 is good. And there are definitely sources describing this as constitutional crisis so don't think that will be an issue with article naming. Not clear how much time I can find for this over holidays but will keep eyes on it if too many things are added.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 19:11, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@LeontinaVarlamonva: You're right about the sources. 2024 Georgian constitutional crisis  Done and can be shifted to 2024–2025 Georgian constitutional crisis if it continues more than a few more days. Boud (talk) 10:48, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Succession dispute subsection

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@Szekere07: In this edit, you removed the excerpt to 2024 Georgian constitutional crisis. I reverted that. If you have a good reason for not using the excerpt, please explain it here so that consensus can be obtained. Please also preferably edit individual sections so that different components of the text can be discussed as individual issues. Boud (talk) 11:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think I did a mistake about removing the excerpt, apologies Szekere07 (talk) 11:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Boud (talk) 12:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV wording of lead

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Currently we have the current president is Mikheil Kavelashvili, although this is being disputed by opposition forces[4]. This makes it sound as if the sources primarily see Kavelashvili as legitimate. Given that there is no clear consensus among Georgian political groups or political scientists or independent legal experts, I propose rewording this to something like: "the current president is either Mikheil Kavelashvili according to Georgian Dream or Salome Zourabichvili according to opposition parties".

Are there any objections to this wording? Boud (talk) 12:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with that change. Current wording cannot remain because it is very one sided. Kavelashvili is openly disputed not just by opposition but others internationally, like high ranking officials.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 12:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like the wording with "either" because it makes it sound as if the two are equivalent. I think a better reflection of the source would be something like "Mikheil Kavelashvili has been sworn in as the new president, amid dispute by Zourabichvili and others over the legitimacy of his presidency." [4] ☺Coppertwig (talk) 14:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The non-equivalence is to do with the timeline. Keep in mind that we use the meanings of sources, not necessarily their specific wording. So a new proposal: "On 29 December 2024, Mikheil Kavelashvili was inaugurated as the new president. Opposition parties considered the inauguration to be invalid and that Salome Zourabichvili continued to be the president." Boud (talk) 14:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Boud's new wording sounds to me to very closely reflect what the sources are saying. [edited my comment] ☺Coppertwig (talk) 18:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose the current wording of the article, "the presidency is disputed between...", for the same reason I oppose "either", and prefer it be replaced by something better expressing what the sources say, such as Boud's last suggestion above. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was born in a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio; I don't care who the president of Georgia is. But when I read this article I'm confused. I see Biden's picture for the article for President of the United States of America -- even though it was (hyper and dangerously) disputed.
This is insane; MK is the president de jure and de fact. That is; we're done. (And whether it's contested, disputed, or what-ever-other past participle of your choosing -- well, that's a whole different thing. What are we doing here?)
Who is the President of Georgia? I should know that as soon as I read the article. Here, I'm engulfed in the murky waters of a far-away land's potentially contested election. But I'm just trying to find out who was elected president of Georgia in 2024. This article makes me somehow stupider for having read it. 8.20.65.4 (talk) 15:53, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You say "I don't care who the president of Georgia is" but leave page long essays anyway? because for some reason you do care? Thank you for this valuable contribution. Your opinion of Biden is not relevant to this. Same can be said about all these large number of newly created accounts that first comment on Kavelashvili and advance his presidency (for unclear reason).--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 17:36, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is very different from the case of Biden. I think nobody or practically nobody is claiming that Biden is not president. There could be lots of people saying he shouldn't be, but not that he isn't. Not the same type of situation at all. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 02:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Choice of picture in infobox

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@Uzenaes, Szekere07, PeterWikiSK, Labrang, PLATEL, Dhlkjigyuvhjbiygh, and Quinnnnnby: To bypass the WP:EDITWAR that has been going on today, please give arguments for why the infobox should either:

Boud (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Either neither or both - As of 29 Dec 2024, the presidency of Georgia is disputed, with no clear consensus (per currently used sources) among either Georgian political groups, Georgian constitutional experts, or international constitutional experts or political scientists or governments from around the world. Neither and both are both (currently) WP:NPOV. Boud (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kavelashvili was elected through a legit constitutional procedure, and was sworn in on this day. Zourabichvili said she would "not leave the palace" but she left nevertheless, paving the way for Kavelashvili to assume the presidency. I think we should put his picture, therefore Option K. We can then add a note saying that the opposition disputes his election, although it is already mentioned in the article. Szekere07 (talk) 14:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option K. Kavelashvili took the oath today, and at about the same time Zurabishvili left the presidential palace. Of course, we can argue about the legitimacy or illegitimacy of these elections (although personally I do not want to take part in this debate), but Zurabishvili does not currently have power in Georgia, although she has great support among opposition supporters and among some foreign countries. I can compare this situation with 2020 Belarus, when the protest movement and some countries of the world recognized Tikhanovskaya as president, but Lukashenko remained the only person with power in the country. I think the right option would be to leave Kavelashvili only, but add a note that his legitimacy is disputed by the Georgian opposition and some international states that recognize Zurabishvili as president. I also support equal representation of Kavelashvili and Zurabishvili in infobox if Zurabishvili creates an alternative government that is not a government in exile, which would lead to dual power on Georgian territory.  PLATEL  (talk) 14:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Although Zourabichvili initially said that she would stay in Orbeliani Palace, and later changed her mind, the political power connotations of leaving it are not the same as if a leader physically leaves a well-established leadership residence such as 10 Downing Street or the US White House. Zourabichvili was the first president to stay in Orbeliani Palace instead of Avlabari Presidential Residence.[1] Boud (talk) 15:05, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree with Boud. President can stay in Orbeliani but doesn't actually live there as primary residence. Zourabichvili had her own house this whole time. In any case she stated Orbeliani is just a building and she remains legitimate president with center elsewhere.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 09:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Depends (though generally support neither or K). I am of the view it would depend on is put as the president in the text; if both, then it should be neither; if Kavelashvili, with '(disputed)' or a note or whatever, then it should be K. In the longer-term, the likely situation is that Kavelashvili will act as president though his legitimacy will still remain contested, so I think whatever happens it is important to keep the disputed bracket and potentially a note with sources explaining the opposition forces' position. Quinby (talk) 14:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regardless whether Kavelashvili was 'legitimately' selected through the procedures as Szekere argues (I think there is a legal argument from constitutionalists the correct procedures were not followed, making the process at least in violation with the law - on top of the disputed appropriation of the allocation of local representatives to GD in the electoral college) - he is de facto the president holding the office. Whether we like it or not, whether it is disputed or not. Foreign (non-)recognition is not going to change that either. So - that would mean I'd say K. Disgruntingly. Labrang (talk) 14:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • More important: we NEED a BETTER photo!!!! These two photos [or actually screenshots!] are terrible!!!! Labrang (talk) 14:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I’d also say k, however, until a decent picture is found it’s better to have nothing at all neither Zlad! (talk) 15:57, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its unfair saying "Foreign (non-)recognition" won't change fact of Kavelashvili presidency. There is widespread non-recognition within Georgia as well. Regardless where is the rule that says this page must have a photo of anyone? Why can't it just remain presidential standard like it is now?--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 14:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Without photo is fine for me as well. I am not a hard nutshell. Labrang (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Both - Wikipedia should not choose sides with disputes in nations, and joining in by putting only one image or the other is not helpful. This has been done before and there even is a template for several images in an infobox. There is a better photo needed of Kavelashvili but there should not be a biased selection of one instead of the other. Especially this is important while editors are edit warring on other articles to remove tags that are showing the office is disputed. It is only right to show that it is disputed with either both or neither, and it should include both names as a disputed office. CIN I&II (talk) 18:05, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option K per PLATEL. I would add that regardless of whether the process to elect him was legitimate, Kavelashvili was today sworn in as president. We regard presidents who seize power in coups as presidents even when they are not duly elected. Kavelashvili is the president of the country starting today and should be listed in the infobox. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option neither: The holder of the presidency is clearly disputed, so it would be wrong to put in a photo of either. Both would have a weird implication of power being divided. I think neither is the best and the status quo should be kept.
CrazyPredictor (talk) 00:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option Z is preferred by me since there is many evidence of election fraud and the fact that parliament that elected Kavelashvili was convened by breaking the constitution without invitation of the president (This is not something I'm saying but what constitutional experts said, source is already in article). Option neither is also acceptable since some people feel strongly against having only one person shown.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 09:31, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How Kavelashvili became the president of Georgia is a completely differerent question. Unless there is some doubt that he is currently the only one performing the functions of the president, his picture should be the only one in the info box. Heptor (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Of course theres "some doubt" Kavelashvili is the only one performing the functions of president. Zourabichvili literally setting up presidents office, physical office, right now and will announce soon she told media. In coming weeks we will probably see official visits by Zourabichvili abroad where she will be given official welcome and that can be cited also here.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 16:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option K. Per arguments made by Selfie City, Szekere07, and Labrang. Nivzaq (talk) 11:33, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option K Salome Zourabichvili is not president of Georgia anymore. Until 29 December, there could have been the benefit of doubt awarded to her claim, because she was still in office and saying that she would not leave the presidential palace, but on 29 December she just left the palace voluntarily and vacated it to Kavelashvili. If she is president, why exactly did she leave her palace and vacate it to the "illegitimate president"? Moreover, she can not be considered as president because she was only elected for the term of 6 years in 2018. Her term expired in 2024 and she was never re-elected by anyone. So even if we assume that she is "legitimate", we can only claim that she is "acting president" and nothing more, because she has no legitimacy to be a full-fledged president anymore. But she can not even be considered as "acting president" because based on what did she assume this position? There is no law or constitutional provision which grants her this power by saying that "former president can assume the role of acting president if the elections were rigged" or something like that. So, she is only claiming to be a "legitimate president" out of thin air. But most importantly, how can she be considered still a president when she exercises no authority of president? Right now (since 29 December) she has totally 0 power. She did not set up alternative administration which would have challenged the Kavelashvili administration in any way.
Even when the opposition disputes the presidency and alleges that the elections were rigged, in cases of Belarus and Venezuela for example, those actually in power, Lukashenko and Maduro are mentioned as presidents on President of Belarus and President of Venezuela pages and their pictures are provided. There are notes on both pages saying that a number of foreign countries and opposition figures don't recognize Lukashenko and Maduro as presidents. This is the best outcome for this page too and would be in line with Wikipedia standarts. However, none of this situation is similar to Georgian one, because both in Belarus and Venezuela the opposition at least tried to create an alternative administration, which would have at least somehow substantiated the seriousness of their claims, but not in Georgia. What is the guarantee that in one year Zourabichvili will not be in Paris working on some French diplomatic mission and everone would still remember her claims of being the "only legitimate president of Georgia"? Rutdam (talk) 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option K. There are many other cases where the integrity of elections has been disputed, and power can shift through completely different means than a plebiscite. Heptor (talk) 21:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Just note/reminder that "consensus" is not just counting hands. If 6 people out of 10 have drastic views that doesn't mean it can completely erase valid points made by others. Number of users have flexible views as shown above and it should all be evaluated to reach some ground.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 15:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Salome Zurabishvili to relocate Presidential Residence from Avlabari to Orbeliani Palace". Agenda.ge. 29 November 2018. Wikidata Q131584019. Archived from the original on 29 December 2024.
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