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Pidgins and creoles

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I would be interested in others' opinions on whether the modified English spoken by post-WWII European migrants constitutes a creole.

My parents came from [then] Yugoslavia and lived in a market gardening community where most interactions were with other Serbo-Croatian speakers. That community's uptake of English was therefore quite slow, until radio and tv and kids who were effectively bilingual made an impact. Talking to folks from other backgrounds - mainly Italians but also Greeks and more recent Middle Eastern migrants - there seems to be a fairly similar mix of scrappy English, particular pronunciation and grammar, and lots of hand gestures. Although I think it was barely intelligible at times to Anglo-Australians [who seemed to have trouble with anything other than standard English] it was reasonably intelligible between migrants from different countries. Now my parents have been here for more than 50 years and can carry on a reasonable conversation but still have the same grammar, so its got more English words but is otherwise still not English.

I have hear this referred to as 'Woglish' and it has been affectionately parodied by the Wogs out of World folk, and [much less funny to me] Mark Mitchell as Con the Fruiterer. Although its disappearing [I think as the local more recent Middle Eastern, Asian and African migrants seem to be working a different sort of way] it is a strong part of my upbringing and many other people's memories.

I look forward to hearing what other folk think [[[Special:Contributions/60.242.50.195|60.242.50.195]] (talk) 09:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)][reply]


A distinction needs to be made between a creole, and poorly spoken English, which appears to be the case here. Creoles have grammar structures and are amalgamations of two existing languages, and thus can be codified as languages in their own right. With English as a second language English, it has more to do with a misunderstanding and misuse of English, rather than a deliberate attempt to forumlate a new language. The fact that some of these traits are passed on to second generation family members does not indicate a creole, as it is evident that poor English skills are passed down generations regardless of the mother tongue of the parents.

No more so than am I inventing an English-Spanish creole every time I go on holiday, are these people creating new languages. The Red Threat (talk) 16:31, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment moved from article

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This edit was improperly made to the article. However, it may be worth referring to the link provided by the editor in case his or her challenge is valid. (I haven't checked it yet so I'm not sure)That link is here. --AussieLegend (talk) 18:19, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Official language of Australia

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I have reverted changes from July 2013 that changed the beginning of the article to indicate that English was the official language of Australia. The reference provided was a national fact sheet on Australia provided by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, which listed "English" in the "Official Language" field. I would be surprised if this document establishes an official language at law, and would be reluctant to allow this to completely change the polarity of the opening statement of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bilious (talk • contribs) 12:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Graphs on this page

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Are there any wikipedia guidelines that a graph has to actually have a key? a written description about what colour = what ethnic group on the map would not be very helpful to the color blind — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.96.16.58 (talk) 06:08, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Languages

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Ok, until the census results have released in September/August 2017, the page is using data based on ethnologue data from 2016.

Thanks, -The2016 The2016 (talk) 11:34, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted your changes, as I think there needs to be further discussion about the merits of the census and Ethnologue as sources. I'm not sure where you found the claim that only 68% of the Australian population speak any form of English, but it's pretty obviously incorrect. IgnorantArmies (talk) 17:09, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not. Thanks, you've just wasted what I've been working on for hours.

I don't know how to get sources on here.

It is a well trusted site https://www.ethnologue.com/country/AU 

The2016 (talk) 17:11, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I was planning to update this when the ABS released the results this year for 2016's Census. The2016 (talk) 17:14, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing, you're amazing. You revert to that users edits, not knowing jack shot about the 2011 census, which didn't include Tamil as 1.5%, it has 50,000 speakers. 


The2016 (talk) 17:20, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Can't respond, eh? The2016 (talk) 17:25, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This section of Ethnologue states there are 20 million L1+L2 English speakers in Australia. Even if you calculated the percentage based on the current population, this would still mean around 81% of the population spoke English. Your edit said "According to Ethnologue, 68% of people spoke English at home, including L2 speakers".
The two sources Ethnologue uses are a 2012 UNSD estimate (for L1 speakers) and a 2003 estimate by David Crystal (for L2 speakers). Neither would have surveyed the whole population, as the census does, so the census is clearly more reliable. If the census were much more out of date than the other sources, that might be a good reason to ignore the accuracy issue, but it's not. IgnorantArmies (talk) 17:30, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I can't wait for the 2016 census results, I'm gonna rub them in your face The2016 (talk) 17:32, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You deal with the English language, I'll deal with the others, because, all of them are 2012, not 2011, so they are more recent than the Census. They are also done by the United Nations, so, I Am going to revert your edit. You edit the parts about English, but until the census results are released in late this year, these are the most up to date sources. Also, I'm sorry for the percentages, I wrote in an edit summary I wasn't good at them. I hope this works out, thanks, The2016 (talk) 10:11, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please fix the remaining errors I made. Also, if you see the external links, Ethnologue Report for Australia is one of them. Again, I'm sorry for stuffing up the percentages. The2016 (talk) 10:16, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tamil is *not* an official language of Australia. 131.181.64.231 (talk) 00:01, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Australia has no official language.

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Australia has no official language, there is no although about it. --115.69.59.49 (talk) 05:01, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Immigrant languages

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Shouldn't "English" also be there? - Francis Tyers · 23:53, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

English

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Hello all 

I have expanded the content and added reliable sources. I have added a table. I have removed a redundant graphic. Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:00, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Aboriginal languages

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Hello all

I have changed the heading to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island languages, which is more accurate. I have updated the information to reflect the latest census and NILS data. I have added content to a number of sub-heading which were empty. Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:05, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Immigrant languages

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Hello all. This term is no longer used in the majority of reliable sources in Australia. I have changed this heading to Other languages which is neutral and descriptive. I have added content with sources. I have also moved some content from other sections here. Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:10, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Foreign languages

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Hello all. This term is no longer used in the majority of reliable sources in Australia. I have changed this heading to Language education which better describes the content. I have added content with sources. Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:14, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

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Hello all. I have changed the lead to better reflect the expanded content of the article and to better conform with MOS:LEAD Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Info box

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Hello all. I have simplified the info box in order to better reflect the content of the article. The infobox contained too much complex information and detail which was misleading and is better explained in the lead and the body of the article. See MOS:INFOBOX. Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Would love to see more "L2" information in Wikipedia

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This article, like many others, reports on native speakers and/or "speaks only (language) at home."  I don't have access to Ethnologue myself, but I look to articles like this to know what percentage of the population I can communicate with, not just how many are native speakers of (language).  Especially in countries where English is not common, and I wonder whether any of my other languages will be useful there.  People tell me "English is everywhere," but I've spent time in thirty countries (a month or more in eight) and I know it's not true. 伟思礼 (talk) 02:01, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox and images

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I have reverted or edited some recent changes. My reasons are:
1) The QWERTY keyboard image in the info box tells us nothing about the languages of Australia and doesn't help the average reader understand the article. The info box is supposed to summarise the key information in the article. MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE
2) The bilingual sign about crocodiles doesn't add anything to the article which is already crowded with images, one of which is a multilingual sign.
3) The map of Indigenous language groups needs to be reliably sourced.
4) There is no need to introduce hyperlinks in the info box as these links are already in the lead. Also the correct term is "Indigenous languages", not "Indigenous and Torres Strait Islander Languages" because Torres Strait Islanders are by definition Indigenous.
@Sheila1988 Happy to discuss and please refer to my two earlier messages about this on your Talk Page. I am sure a compromise or consensus can be reached if you are willing to discuss your changes.

Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:15, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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