Talk:Fakhr-ol-dowleh Mosque

Definitely machine translation

I got some low-hanging fruit, but some of this is really going to require a Persian speaker. Since this is not me, I defaulted to leaving unchanged what I did not understand Elinruby (talk) 04:46, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Re-wrtie

Moved from User talk:Jeeputer § Fakhr al-Dawla Mosque

I actually had some questions. Does “brickyard” mean “courtyard”? There is mention of a Honeysuckle mosque. Is that this mosque? Also, when you say “before” the princess’ palace, are we saying it’s on the property? Literally in front of her house? Seems slightly odd, and I don’t speak Farsi so I can’t certify the translation, but answering these questions should deal with the slightly strange way it reads. Elinruby (talk) 00:48, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

@Elinruby Hi. As i can see in the Persian article, brickyard meaninglessly refers to Shabestan (at least it tries to do so!).

Honeysuckle, in Persian language, is called Pich-e Amin al-Dawla; and Amin al-Dawla mosque (which is translated by the machine to Honeysuckle mosque) is another name of this building, named by the lady after Mirza Ali Khan Amin al-Dawla (father of the lady's husband) and is designed by Nikolai Markov. Fakhr al-Dawla mosque is what people call it these days and is frequently used by the sources.[1] actually, as i can see now, the Persian article is not in good condition and part of it is copied from here. I will rewrite both articles.

And no, it's not on the property, but is just facing the house (Her house is located at the corner of the main street, south of the mosque's location on the map provided here). Jeeputer (talk) 06:33, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Well the building certainly is historic. I would use a different word than “before”, which is sort of archaic and formal. Usually used in something like “the brave knight stood before the dragon.” Elinruby (talk) 06:43, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

As for the MT, yeah, that’s how you get this kind of stuff. But was the mosque actually known as “honeysuckle”? Because if it had a nickname that’s one thing, ok, but if not maybe just reword this? Elinruby (talk) 06:50, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Never mind, on re-reading, I think you are saying that this man’s name means honeysuckle also? I know nothing. Those are the questions I had trying to read it, and if you have the fluency to rewrite, a suggestion for clarification Elinruby (talk) 07:05, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

@Elinruby The mosque is not known as Honeysuckle, actually it's name was Amin al-Dawla mosque (not a nickname) at first, but as the original founder of the mosque was the lady, the name was changed later. the flower probably took its name from someone named Amin al-Dawla and put the machine in trouble. :) in other words, Amin al-Dawla is not a translation of Honeysucke, it's a different name for the flower named after someone.

The article is now under rewrite and i'm trying to find more reliable sources to write the exact history of the building. Jeeputer (talk) 07:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

I would like to encourage you to work on the article. I suspect there is a lot of history there that could be expanded if some Farsi speaker wanted to ;) thanks for picking it up ;) Elinruby (talk) 07:38, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Ps: I still find the honeysuckle thing confusing, but if there is history there maybe start a history section and expand on it a bit? Elinruby (talk) 07:49, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

@Elinruby name of the "Builders" section has been changed to History now. going to rewrite and expand other sections.

About the honeysuckle, consider that "Pich-e Amin al-Dawla" (name of the flower in my language) is a local name. "Pich" in this name, refers to the nature of the flower, wraping around trees (see Vine, plants "pich"ing and climbing trees), and Amin al-Dawla part, is name of a person (probably the plant was confiscated by one of the royal family members!). For example, a Screwdriver in Persian language is called Pich Gooshti. if you want to translate the name to English, you can call it "fleshy screw". :D which means nothing in English. simply, Honeysuckle has nothing to do about the mosque or its name and was just a mistake made by the machine translator, as the name of the mosque was also Amin al-Dawla. Jeeputer (talk) 08:13, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Vast is my incomprehension, although I do understand now that the plant was named after a person. I think? Leaving that to the side for the moment, the name of the lady is given in different ways, and you should pick one, at least for within this article. It is also possible that somebody has determined what the Wikipedia standard is for this lady. This too is offered as an attempt at helpful suggestion. I like the detail of the shabestan, actually, if that is what the Farsi says  ;) but don’t mind me, I am just glad somebody is working on this ;) Elinruby (talk) 08:43, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

@Elinruby That's correct. sorry, i'm not a native English speaker and maybe i couldn't explain what i meant to say. i am gald you got your answer.

I corrected the name and moved the article to Fakhr-ol-dowleh Mosque. added map to the infobox and rewrote the content based on sources (not a translation from fawiki now). can you please review the text and correct them where needed? i may had some grammar errors when writing, as i am not a good English speaker. i think the map and coordinates may need to be reviewed too, as i'm not familiar with those templates.

Btw, it's first major edit i made to an article on enwiki and that was a great experience. :) Jeeputer (talk) 11:11, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

@Elinruby Forgot to ask: please move this discussion to the article's talk page. I don't know how you do that in this wiki, but i know it's done in a different way from my home wiki. Thank you. Jeeputer (talk) 11:15, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

All I know is cut and paste. I will re-read in the next day or so. I do not know how to check coordinates. Lots of Farsi at. WP:PNT ;) Elinruby (talk) 11:35, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

@Elinruby That's ok. there's no hurry. I really appreciate your help. I moved the discussion here the way i knew and that looks the same as what we do on fawiki. will find more articles to re-write on WP:PNT (found this one there too). Regards. Jeeputer (talk) 14:50, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

look on the talk page also. There is a list of Farsi language articles that need help. Let me know if you don’t find it ;) as far as I know nobody else is doing Farsi. (I sometimes fix up articles in other languages if I think I understand them, but am only authoritative when it comes to French.) Elinruby (talk) 23:17, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment on English, minor: if “lady” is used a a title, it should be capitalized as it is then part of a name. So the princess (one, unspecified but definitely a specific princess) but Princess Diana, a doctor (one, but indefinite which one) but Doctor Jeckyll. SpellIng this out because I seem to remember Farsi doesn’t have “a” or “the”. Fixed this a couple of times, but there may be more. Also, “in front of” the palace is much better than “before” as it avoids the archaic overtones, but it still sounds like it is on the same lot as the palace, and didn’t you say it was across the street? This sounds like some of the royal palaces in Paris. If we get too stuck on the right word, I can look at how this got handled in those articles. But clarify for me the exact location of the mosque, will you? I will do my best to help. Elinruby (talk) 23:37, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

also, “frontage” to me means the edge of a highway, which is probably not the case here. Maybe “facade” is the intended meaning? Also, please do not be abashed by these questions; the article is already vastly more useful than it was Elinruby (talk) 23:48, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

@Elinruby: Hi. As this discussion is moved to article's talk page, i didn't get notified about your new comments and i'm sorry about the delay. Whenever i come to enwiki, i'll export a template or category to fawiki, or will edit some Persian/Iran-related articles. so you can count on me wherever a related article needs to be reviewed/edited/translated/etc.

• "lady" is not a title for this person and i think it shouldn't be capitalized. She is a random lady named "Fakhr-ol-dowleh" and that's it.
• I agree, "in front of" is better. Because the mosque is actually facing the house, and yes, it is in the same lot and at the same side of the street (I know it's original research, but we are talking about choosing the correct wording). this is reflected in sources but you can choose wording to describe this better than i can.
• Indeed, i chose "frontage" using google trans and not sure if it's correct. you can look at my query here. In this case, حریم is the area which is protected by the National Heritage authority and people and construction companies are forbidden to build specific structures with certain specifications (such as higher than a specified height) in that area. I hope it helps rewriting that sentence with a better wording. Jeeputer (talk) 12:51, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

I think I understand the part about “in front” and “frontage” — will think on this. It is ok if you are not a native English speaker; this is the case with the authors/editors of many articles about other cultures and histories. I like to help improve such articles and am happy to answer questions. Or ask them ;) Elinruby (talk) 05:52, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

vastly better. I deleted “Lady” as we discussed, made some minor changes to idiom. I am still thinking about “frontage” and will investigate what word is used for this in other articles. There is a protected area like that in DC and possibly in Paris. I left “frontage” for now Elinruby (talk) 14:25, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

More overthinking about “front”

Not a priority but still thinking about how to translate this. I changed it to “front”, because I got the impression that the concern was to keep the mosque visible from the street. But actually that’s 7 meters, not 7ft, so I think I may be wrong about that. The article about Washington DC doesn’t use a special word for the height restriction there; it just gives the name of the law and explains a complicated formula for the maximum building height based on the width of the street. Paris isn’t much help either.

My objection to “frontage” was that I associate it with Frontage road which is clearly not what we are talking about here. However, this meaning is pretty specific to western North America, or at least I had never heard of one before I got here.

And it turns out that Google knows another use for “frontage” that may apply; it’s a real estate term for the boundary of a property with the street. So. In the Damage section, I probably need to amend the changes I made. Can you tell from the way the Farsi is worded, @Jeeputer:, whether the construction was between the mosque and the street, or on an adjacent lot, or actually on the property lot of the mosque? (My current wording implies the latter, and I am starting to think it is wrong).

I have actually found that machine translation does quite well with technical terms — it is old cultural words with dozens of meanings that it often gets wrong, like “wave” or “piece”. So if the Farsi means between the mosque and the street, maybe frontage is right after all. Maybe I can find a map or a photo.

Earlier in the article where we say she built the mosque “in front” of her palace, what I am imagining is a palace with rather extensive gardens and grounds (like Versailles) with the mosque built on the palace grounds between the palace and the street. Again, maybe I ban find a photo. Elinruby (talk) 10:53, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

@Elinruby: Take a look at the map i made on my sandbox (probably the most ridiculous map ever). as you can see, the commercial complex is in the protection area of the mosque (what i call frontage). actually, what i mean of frontage is the area in which no high-rise structure is allowed. in this image (photographer facing north) you can see the complex and in this image (photographer facing south) you can see some dirty walls which are the walls of the palace. in other words, in the first image, the palace is right behind the mosque.

Based on the map (table, actually) on my sandbox, i think you can choose a better alternative for 'frontage'. sorry i couldn't find any better word for that concept and put you into trouble. Jeeputer (talk) 11:52, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

You can also search for 'Fakhr Mosque' on Google Maps to find the location of the mosque relative to the palace and/or the high-rise complex. Jeeputer (talk) 12:02, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

no no it is actually interesting, no apology is needed. And this is work I would be absolutely unable to do alone. I did look at pictures and now understand that Versailles is the wrong analogy, but the maps I found were of course labeled in Farsi, which, again, I do not speak at all. They locate the mosque but my question is where the mosque is in relation to the residence. “”Right behind” helps, but I am going to go look at your sandbox now. But above all, do not feel a need to apologize. Elinruby (talk) 12:09, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

So the map was actually quite helpful. Maybe the term we want is “buffer zone” as discussed here for a different historic building in Tehran. If it’s accurate, it is also an easily understandable term. So is it correct to say that the restriction is with respect to specific buildings (not entire neighborhoods) and involves a maximum height within that zone? (So, not across the street where the Portuguese embassy is, because it isnt in the zone, but does it apply on the other side of the building on the same block? It sounds like this zone isn’t a set number of feet wide, but is set on a case by case basis? I will re-read and wait for your response before making any changes.

As for “in front of”, having seen the pictures I think that’s probably accurate, but it may convey the layout better to say “in the forecourt of”, what do you think? Elinruby (talk) 12:40, 8 October 2021 (UTC)