Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 185

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Proposal to add brief description of Trumpism in lead

Should the lead contain a brief description of Trumpism, which it currently mentions without further explanation? I added one, but Farkle Griffin reverted me, citing length concerns. I agree with the recent lead cuts, but the statement "Trump created Trumpism" without further description is meaningless, and I think it benefits readers to briefly explain what he stands for politically without requiring them to click through and read the lead of the other article. Here is a brief, 12-word proposal: "In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign which led to the Trumpism movement, characterized by right-wing populism, "America First" nationalism, protectionism, and loyalty to himself." See my new proposal below. The specifics are up for debate. — Goszei (talk) 21:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I completely disagree with this proposal. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a reason? — Goszei (talk) 08:33, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

@Goszei: there's an entire article (slightly biased against Trump) about Trumpism, in my opinion there's no need to create more material. JacktheBrown (talk) 13:12, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Neither support nor oppose here, but what are your thoughts on simply including it in a footnote? Farkle Griffen (talk) 22:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it's important enough to state outside of a footnote. — Goszei (talk) 22:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe something along these lines?

"In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign, during which he promoted nationalism, anti-establishment rhetoric, and conspiracy theories. His policies and rhetoric led to the Trumpism movement." Rexxx7777 (talk) 22:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I prefer a mention of "right-wing populism" to "anti-establishment rhetoric", as that is how this article currently describes his positions; the other article also helps connect Trump's rise to the global context of emergent figures such as Viktor Orbán, Giorgia Meloni, Jair Bolsonaro, and Javier Milei. I also think mentioning "'America First' nationalism" is better than "nationalism" alone, as that article helps explain the non-interventionist and economic protectionist elements of Trump's brand of nationalism, which is not implied by simply stating "nationalism". — Goszei (talk) 23:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

• At a minimum, this should be added to the body before considering adding it to the lede. Trumpism is not really discussed in the body. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  Perhaps not all in one sentence, but the body does in fact mention Trumpism, right-wing populism, America First, and protectionism, and even his cult of personality. I think my proposal does a good job of tying this all together. — Goszei (talk) 23:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  It doesn't relate these to Trumpism. It also doesn't mention the "loyalty to himself" comment. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  What is Trumpism but the rhetoric, ideology, and political actions of Donald Trump, which form the bulk of this article's content? The last part about "loyalty" I am less confident in than the rest, and will bow to opposition to it. — Goszei (talk) 23:57, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  I am not opposed, I am just asking that the lede doesn't develop separately from the body per the manual of style. The lede shouldn't be the only place that defines Trumpism. defines Trumpism. How you define Trumpism is also at odds with the lede of Trumpism: a political movement in the United States that comprises the political ideologies associated with Donald Trump and his political base.Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC) Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I am slightly modifying my proposal to this: In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign which gave rise to Trumpism, a political movement characterized by right-wing populism, "America First" nationalism, and economic protectionism. — Goszei (talk) 00:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I think loyalty to Trump is an important part of it.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's kinda implied by the name. Let's give our readers the credit of putting together that "Trumpists" are loyal to Trump Farkle Griffen (talk) 05:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

For a few weeks we have been discussing the need for this kind of addition in multiple talk pages. Some editors agreed, some didn't. For me this seems mandatory, since Trump winning the first election is the most notable event of his life and it needs proper context. In my opinion Goszei additions to the second paragraph manage to make that description clear and concise. Editor @Nikkimaria reverted them with explanation "overdetail". I disagree, there is a missing flow in the lead that is filled in by these additions, they are also not overdetailed and the second paragraph has space for them.

Goszei edit:

In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign which gave rise to Trumpism, a political movement characterized by right-wing populism, "America First" nationalism, and economic protectionism.

the reversion by Nikkimaria:

In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign which led to the Trumpism movement.

Also another detail that said "and focused on luxury accommodation" was removed. It helps to define what Trump was known for. Before that the lead went in even more detail with the kind of properties Trump invested in.

Similarly to what @Farkle Griffen is saying I do not believe that the "loyal to himself" part is needed.

I've done 2 reversions in the last 24h so I'll avoid going further, someone else can reinsert these if there is consensus. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 12:31, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

The lead does not need any more detail, particularly (as noted above) detail that is not in the body. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

but they do are in the body. you could argue there is a repetition from general rethoric before being a president to the official acts, but it's different imo.

and him having mostly luxury accomodations has now completelly disappeared, I'll edit that in since I don't see any reason to remove it and gives proper context. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 00:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Added the details back by connecting them directly on Trump and not on Trumpism, as it was noted here before. Should be good now. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 00:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Nope, definitely not good, those additions should be reverted until you've got consensus for them. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

The "luxury accomodations" part was present in the lead for a very long time in an even more developed form, so why revert that? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the main diff that has been reverted by @Moxy

In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign characterized by right-wing populism, "America First" nationalism, and economic protectionism, which led to the Trumpism movement.

How do other editors feel? Is this relevant enough for the lead and properly present on body?

@Goszei @Farkle Griffen @Rexxx7777 @Rollinginhisgrave @Jack Upland (editors that participated in this discussion) @JacktheBrown @Mandruss @Thistheyear2023 @Димитрий Улянов Иванов @PizzaKing13 @750h+ @BootsED (editors of the newer 50 edits)

If you got the time please motivate your reasoning in favor or against this addition, so that we can look for consensus. If this is too close I will consider doing a RfC for it. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd support it's inclusion as it appears to be an accurate description. Thanks, Димитрий Улянов Иванов (talk) 14:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Since you pinged me, I'll reply. I completely agree with Moxy's edit, and therefore disagree with the inclusion of content. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the most important thing is that it keeps mention of Trumpism. I like the edit before it was removed, and thus support the inclusion. If the consensus is to remove the edit, as long as Trumpism is still mentioned, I am okay with it. The page for Trumpism mentions how it is right-wing populist as nationalist. BootsED (talk) 20:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

What would this ass we do not already say? Slatersteven (talk) 13:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

For me it is a mather of order and logical steps. This is what he said and did before being a president, what made him popular. The formulation is in the right place in the lead (second paragraph) and feels more direct that just refering to policies later on. This is consistent with the lead of Hitler, for exemple (no comparison between individuals but of how to develop an high quality complex lead). Antisemitism is mentioned in paragraph 2, while he was not in power, despite references to his antisemitic policies obviously having a spot later.

For me, this how a lead should be written. Anything else is sloppy and with major logical holes. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

So this would not add anything, just change the order of the lead? Slatersteven (talk) 14:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

No, it does both. The current formulation does even worst. It removed elements that define his first political campaign, one of the most notable events of his life, and moved even the Trumpism reference to the last paragraph by making the reading full of holes. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 08:37, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Other editors opinions on order? Now the first political campaign is almost non existent on lead on a chronological order. Is this acceptable? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 08:48, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so I would propose simply mentioning that his rise led to the creation of Trumpism. I don't think we need a description of Trumpism in the lead. The page for Trumpism itself goes into detail of what Trumpism is. This would also remove any need to talk about right-wing populism or nationalism, as that would be covered by Trumpism. I think it is common sense that anyone who has a political movement named after themselves that is described as becoming the largest faction of a major political party should have that movement mentioned in the lead of their own article. BootsED (talk) 13:59, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

If we follow this logic we end up with a lead that his only links and has no summarization of informations. It doesn't seem good at all to me.

Other editors opinions? Or should we bring this to a RfC? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 08:46, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

In my view, if there is any piece of information that a reader should take away from reading the lead, it is that Trump politically stands for right-wing populism and nationalism. If the reader finishes reading without gleaning that knowledge, we have failed. — Goszei (talk) 20:44, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Goszei, and I especially find it relevant to highlight his first political campaign, which was the most notable event of his life and was commented and analyzed by countless sources. @Goszei since not many are answering this topic should we move forward with a Rfc? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:53, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I support the creation of an RfC. — Goszei (talk) 04:52, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Looks like the was no consensus here after my question and tagging of editors. There should be ground to open an RfC as per WP:RFCBEFORE. I would phrase it like this:

Do you agree to add this phrase to the Donald Trump lead to describe his first presidential campaign?

In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign characterized by right-wing populism, "America First" nationalism, and economic protectionism.

Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 16:09, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

The Tone of the Article.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I have read through the article and noticed it seems to have a tone that is very much against Trump and is quite a biased sounding tone. Could we edit certain parts of this article simply to give it a neutral tone? This is simply my opinion on a problem I think I have spotted with this page. I don't mean I think we should edit the whole page,simply parts of it to give it a neutral, non-bias tone. 2A02:8086:C99:AD00:6F34:22E:3366:6BBB (talk) 18:47, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

see FAQ Q1 at the top of this page. ValarianB (talk) 18:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Trump John, Donald" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Trump John, Donald has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 6 § Trump John, Donald until a consensus is reached. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:53, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 December 2024 Suggestion

In the section labeled 2024 Presidential Campaign: Please change, the text, "In late 2024, Time (magazine) named Trump its Person of the Year." to "On December 12, 2024 Time (magazine) named Trump its Person of the Year. That same morning Trump rang the opening bell of the New York Stock Exchange for the first time."

In addition to the source already cited for that line please also cite the following 2 sources: https://apnews.com/article/trump-stock-exchange-time-nyse-bell-ringing-91a59ff0f4ce77c0c6f87e55a38c6c75

https://time.com/7201565/person-of-the-year-2024-donald-trump-transcript/

Thank you! Middle Mac CJM (talk) 17:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:57, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Mandruss! This is my first suggested edit on a more protected article. I don't believe this change is controversial so I am looking to make it happen. What is the process for establishing a consensus on an edit like this? Should I just add a new topic section and let editors discuss or is there something else I should do to help move that process along? Thank You!

Middle Mac CJM (talk) 18:02, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Start a talk page thread asking for this edit, then get consensus. Slatersteven (talk) 18:06, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @Slatersteven! Sincerely, Middle Mac CJM (talk) 18:19, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Reverting consensus 20

Bringing two comments down from Talk:Donald Trump#Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8 to a new thread. They are addressing the sentence His election and policies sparked numerous protests in the lede.

I have no strong opinion on this one. But the mention of protests after his first election 100% is UNDUE in the lead. R. G. Checkers talk 00:08, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree on protests. They didn't lead anywhere.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support The lead in general needs to be trimmed, I think we should focus on the information with the most WP:RS coverage for the lead. I am not sure how we will determine what constitutes as "enough RS coverage for the lead," perhaps we will need another topic for this. Artem...^Talk 02:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Some of us think it should be "enough RS coverage for the body" and "enough body coverage for the lead". Body comes first. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that would be a good determining factor. I suppose it would then be down to "What constitutes enough body coverage for the lead?" But I am again getting off topic and will leave this for another discussion Artem...^Talk 02:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

The question is not of volume, but of quality. We need retrospective coverage that puts it into the context of his life/presidency to determine emphasis. And from this, as Mandruss notes, lead follows body. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support - Clearly UNDUE and maybe even RECENTISM that should have never been in the lead in the first place, and certainly not now. R. G. Checkers ^talk 03:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Could you expand on why you understand this fact is given undue weight? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 04:59, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

    Protests happen for every president. Just because the protest had a more people come does not mean it needs to be I in the lead. R. G. Checkers ^talk 03:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

    Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. What does your comment have to do with UNDUE? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

    Look at this sentence instead: Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery R. G. Checkers ^talk 05:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

    An article can discuss information in great depth, in a lot of text etc while still maintaining a neutral point of view. The way it can do that is by fairly represent[ing] all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. You need to determine the emphasis of reliable sources first: looking at information and thinking "that's a lot of detail [for something like this or otherwise]" is insufficient for determining if it is DUE. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 09:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support removal Needs to be significant trimming in the lead to fit in the 2nd term info. The protests against him are less important to cover relative to other infomation in the lead.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 06:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, as I think it's fair to say his latest election has also led to protests. Slatersteven (talk) 16:54, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Other stuff may happen that we may want to include" isn't a rationale for removing. The protests included the largest single-day protest in U.S. history at the time (it's been surpassed by the George Floyd protests in 2020). AFAIK, no other president's election has resulted in protests, especially not with the protesters far outnumbering the spectators at the inauguration. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:01, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  It is mentioned briefly in the body. This is not defining of trump himself. We don't need room for things that are going to happen we need room for things that already have happened. R. G. Checkers ^talk 03:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

• Question What has changed to constitute this change? DN (talk) 04:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  We (with Farkle Griffen doing most of the heavy lifting) are finally taking on serious lead reduction, essentially raising the DUE bar for the lead. The lead is down 40% from two weeks ago. Under discussion is whether this item still clears the bar. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support the poor pussyhats didn't accomplish anything. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Neither did Trump's photo-ops with Kim Jong Un (consensus 44). Misogyny still rules but, for a brief moment, by sheer numbers, it looked as though there was hope. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:47, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support. A little bit below the threshold of importance for inclusion in the lead. — Goszei (talk) 20:45, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support, not particularly notable. Irruptive Creditor (talk) 08:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Support. It's not particularly notable. Riposte97 (talk) 22:43, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support per above. Maybe instead:

His presidency saw a marked increase in political polarisation.

Kowal2701 (talk) 21:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support, as I think the get-togethers of groups of people with signs saying "orange man bad" isn't key for the reader base to understand Trump. I must say, it reeks of UNDUE and comes off as an artifact of RECENTISM. BarntToust 22:38, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

References