Talk:Charles the Bold

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Sources and stuff

More sources

Biographie universelle ancienne et moderne: Histoire par ordre alphabétique de la vie publique et privée de tous les hommes, vol V 56-562.
Boehm, L., 'Burgundy and the Empire in the Reign of Charles the Bold', The International History Review (1979)
Brown, A.,'Bruges and the Burgundian ‘Theatre-state’: Charles the Bold and Our Lady of the Snow', History (1999)
Evans, J., 'The Garter of Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy', The Antiquaries Journal (1952)
Mantel, G., The Encyclopedia of Diplomacy: Charles the Bold (1433-77)
Smith, J., 'Portable Propaganda—Tapestries as Princely Metaphors at the Courts of Philip the Good and Charles the Bold', Art Journal (1989).
Walsh, R., Charles the Bold and Italy 1467-1477: Politics and Personnel
Weightmann, Margaret of York, Duchess of Burgundy, 1446-1503

Mine Puttnam and Vaughan to a far greater degreee than they are used already. Lose the old PD sources, and while biographies of Charles' contemporary rulers might be useful for gleaning material—particularly international relations—Charles Ross's or Michael Hicks's Edward IV would be more useful than JA-H. By that token, also look at James Cleugh's 1970 Chant Royal: The Life of King Louis XI, and find something about Fred III. Ceoil, have you done something on either his tomb or book of hours? And Johnbod, was it Max Ernst who did a curious thing with Jean Hatchett and Charles the Bold? If so, we can add that to 'Cultural depictions' section and get rid of some of those books. SN54129 15:10, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have Vaughan at hand but it's probably available at archives.org. Victoria (tk) 15:38, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have Bart van Loo, The Bugundians: A Vanished Empire, 2021, Head of Zeus, ISBN 9781789543438 (a lucky charity shop buy) with 65 pages on Charles' reign. He's not an academic historian though. Sorry "Max Ernst who did a curious thing with Jean Hatchett and Charles the Bold" rings no bell with me (or Google) - ok this. It is Jeanne Hachette, not "Jean". Johnbod (talk) 22:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That produced the moronicwiki gem "She is currently known for an act of heroism on 27 June 1472, when she prevented the capture of Beauvais by the troops of Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy." Johnbod (talk) 01:55, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks both! Johnbod, I've never heard of 'moronicwiki' before (but then, IIRC, you were also the one who introduced me to 'cite banditry' too!), but thanks for listing that source here. I'm going to dig out a few in French too, there must be plenty. Yes, that collage was the Ernst piece I was thinking of, although on a re-read, I see that my original comment (Max Ernst... did a curious thing with Jean Hatchett and Charles the Bold) has a certain innuendo to it, fnarr fnarr! Thanks again, SN54129 14:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Copy edit questions

> Charles was around this age when he began partaking in public affairs of his father's duchy.

Is this the age of 8 when Philip appointed d'Auxy as Charles's guardian? Or is this in 1445 (age 12) when Charles accompanied Philip to Holland and Zealand?

He was born in 1433, so the latter.

> During the actual journey, Charles managed to break sixteen or eighteen lances and received prizes from two princesses.

What is the "actual journey"? Is this an actual tourney and not the practice tourney?

Yes, in that 'journey' is a mistransliteration for 'tourney'

> He returned to his lines before getting captured.

In the Battle of Montlhéry, Charles was not captured, correct? 🌊PacificDepths^talk|contrib 18:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No he wasn't; does the article say so? I couldn't see it. Thanks for addressing the copy edit PacificDepths, much appreciated! ——Serial Number 54129 20:21, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The prior wording was unclear. I tried to make it more clear.

About about the other questions about "actual journey" and Charles's age when he began to engage in public affairs? 🌊PacificDepths^talk|contrib 05:49, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PacificDepths: Indeed, I answered inline. ——Serial Number 54129 10:57, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello @PacificDepths, thanks for all the work! Regarding your questions, 1. the actual tourney is the correct wording. 2. The source itself does not actually specify his age. It says 'tender age' between 1440 and 1453. Amir Ghandi (talk) 09:33, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello User:Amir Ghandi and User:Serial Number 54129: I believe I have finished my copy edits. Please review for correctness. Some general thoughts:

The article states that Charles struggled for power before he became Duke. There could be more examples.
I'm confused about the enmity between Charles and de Croÿ.
Background is still too long and can be shortened.

🌊PacificDepths^talk|contrib 05:46, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, @PacificDepths, can you please elaborate on your second point? What is confusing about the Charles-de Croy rivalry? Regarding your first point, I don't think there's anything else we can add. And unfortunately, I must disagree with you on the Background section. See Henry IV, whose background was twice as long as this article. Amir Ghandi (talk) 20:14, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What was the cause of the feud between Charles and Philip de Croÿ? Was it a struggle for power in Philip the Good's court? Was it a suspicion of motives?

> Charles resented de Croÿ, whom he considered at fault for his father's humiliation by the king of France, as Charles VIII had reportedly bribed de Croÿ numerous times.

When was Philip the Good humiliated? And is Charles VIII correct? If it's the French monarch contemporaneous with Philip the Good, would it be Charles VII? I might rewrite this as:

> Charles suspected that Philip de Croÿ accepted money from Charles VII to undermine Philip the Good.

For other points, that's fine. 🌊PacificDepths^talk|contrib 00:50, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good amendment. Done. Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bart van Loo

Hello, @User talk:Serial Number 54129, with the copyediting done, I was thinking to nominate the article for FAC, though I have one concern. It seems Bart van Loo's book, The Burgundians: A Vanished Empire is not considered a reliable source. Will I have to delete this source all together? Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:06, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Seems" how? I'd think it is reliable for facts, but rather opinionated. Johnbod (talk) 12:56, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It might be my misunderstanding but it seems this discussion deems the source as unacademic. Amir Ghandi (talk) 13:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well it isn't an academic work for sure - nor are others you use. Quoting from that discussion "...a topic with more than its fair share of Serious Academic Commentary. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!)". The trouble is, Van Loo's 8 page introductory note to his 20 page bibliography lists 4 biographies in French and 2 in German from recent(ish) years. None of these are used here (though some articles etc by the same authors are). I don't think the copyediting is done btw - not to FAC standards. The English needs attention. Johnbod (talk) 13:47, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of the books, I can only find two others (Potter and Querengässer) that I might be slightly leery of—but not badly so, and among everything else, that's pretty insignificant. There is no major problem with Van Loo as long as he's not given weight over, say, Vaughan. And the articles and 'paedias used are all high quality. I agree with JB wrt the copyedit. It's a great improvement, but not so great it cannot be further improved. SerialNumber54129 14:38, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]