Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Incivility by User:TechnoFaye

Resolved

No action taken on TechnoFaye and mediation on Race and intelligence prolonged for at least another two weeks, following the suggestion of Ludwigs2

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I have previously created a thread here but was referred to WP:WQA. However the thread to Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:TechnoFaye has not been taken seriously. It is not the first time, WQA has numerous problems and at present is not adequately equipped to handle civility problems. I am aware of the policy on forum shopping but I have felt it necessary that this issue be handled at ANI, because there are many more experienced editors here. My main complaint is that TechnoFaye keeps on saying "Blacks are stupid". I find these comments offensive, and have tried to ignore them and put them in context. But because she keeps repeating them, I felt it necessary to get outside input. Some of the quotes include So how is R/I different? Eye color = self-reported race, and 11 toes = stupid (or whatever the polite word is). Why is this a false analogy?. [1] My best guess is that, like Gould, some well-meaning editors feel that a genetic basis for blacks being stupid should be denied 'even if it is true.'[2] "It's not about the data-centric structure; that's just the disingenuous cover story. It's about pushing a political POV, and is just like naming the article "Why Blacks are so stupid".[3] What do you think of the theory that the IQ difference is due to everyone else believing that blacks are stupid[4] No, it means it's extremely unlikely that one exists, because it would have to be something powerful enough to make a whole race of people stupid, yet hidden and secret enough that no one ever thought of it[5] These comments have been occurring over a period of at least one month. According to the user's Block log, the user has prior blocks for incivility. Wapondaponda (talk) 19:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC) I would echo the comments made at WQA; these edits are not incivility. Also, it seems to me that you're putting words in her mouth when you say she "keeps on saying 'Blacks are stupid'.". An uninhibited exchange of ideas is usually a good idea during a mediation. I encourage you to disagree politely with her comments, but not characterize them as uncivil. I'd recommend no action here. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC) Floquenbeam, TechnoFaye is not having words put into her mouth. To quote from her MySpace blog on the topic of the Race and intelligence mediation: "Why is "they're stupid" an okay explanation for everybody else's low IQ score, but blacks' score of "retarded" is due to some mysterious, unknown reason other than that they're retarded?" and "negroes are so abysmally stupid."[6]Her blog is v NSFW Repeated racism does fall under WP:CIVIL as far as I'm concerned. If she can't reign herself in to refrain from making bigoted and inflammatory language, she should be indef blocked (regardless of her autism). Fences&Windows 22:22, 23 March 2010 (UTC) Rubbish. It seems to me that either a deliberate misunderstanding of what she is saying is being used against her and/or the quotes are being used massively out of context. I can't see any racism or bigotry, at least not from TechnoFaye. What I do see are kneejerk reactions to non-politically correct statements of unpopular realisations. Personally I see her autism as a perfect way to be unencumbered with the pervasive and ever-present PC bollocks screwing up this project. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 23:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC) All I can say is that her tale of a crazy-bum-woman-living-in-the-forest to suburban-sex-slave-who-wants-to be-raped transformation story on her blog was one of the more disturbing things I have seen in a while. I couldn't get past that to actually look into the on-wiki dispute. In fact now I think I'll sign off for a while and go take a long walk. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:31, 24 March 2010 (UTC) Whereas all I see on that page is someone wanting to do exactly what they want to do with their own life... --Fred the Oyster (talk) 11:21, 24 March 2010 (UTC) If one says "blacks are stupid" once, it may be said in context, it may be literature or a creative way to discuss something. I would be willing to overlook a one-off statement. But to repeat the same statement 6 or 7 times is no longer creative or an uninhibited exchange of ideas, its more like taking advantage of the fact that nobody is complaining. Wapondaponda (talk) 16:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC) @Fred: Not to wander too far off topic here, but I never suggested she was not free to make those choices, just that I personally found it very disturbing, and frankly indicative of deep-seated mental health issues that cannot be explained by autism alone. But of course none of this is actually relevant to her on-wiki actions with regard to possible racist comments. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:16, 24 March 2010 (UTC) As I said, I don't believe her comments are racist. They can appear so when listed like they are above, but that is of course Muntuwandi's intention to strengthen his/her case. As usual it's politically incorrect to refer to possible deficiencies in ethnic minorities and as ever there is always someone wanting to appear to be a crusading liberal. If anyone is causing disruption it's Muntuwandi with his/her forum shopping. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 19:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC) To set the record straight, the complaint here is specifically about incivility. Unless there has been a major paradigm shift that I missed, but according to my understanding it is generally uncivil to refer to any individual or ethnic group as stupid. WP:CIVILITY specifically states: The following behaviors can all contribute to an uncivil environment: 1. Direct rudeness (a) Rudeness, insults, name-calling, gross profanity or indecent suggestions; (b) personal attacks, including racial, ethnic, sexual and religious slurs, and derogatory references to groups such as social classes or nationalities; Without Wikipedia's civility policy, we would not be able to discuss difficult, controversial or politically incorrect subjects. The complaint is not about the subject matter, that remains an independent matter altogether. If we were editing an article about how to bake cookies and an editor persistently stated that an individual or ethnic group were stupid, I would still bring it up as an incivility issue, because it distracts from editing the article and creates an "uncivil environment". I have noticed a few editors want to blame the messenger for bringing this up, but I have done so not to score political points. I would like to know if it is now acceptable in wikipedia discussions to refer to any ethnic group as being "stupid". Wapondaponda (talk) 00:59, 25 March 2010 (UTC) Wapondaponda: just as an aside - the nature of this article means that we have to treat civility issues with circumspection. a few editors on the page (Faye included) stray over the line into personal attacks on other editors, and that needs to be dealt with, but Faye's racial comments aren't so much incivility as a deeply held belief that there is a biological/genetic/racial basis of some sort to intelligence. I'm pretty sure she's guilty of syntehsis from published materials on this point, but I don't think she's trying to be uncivil or racist as much as she's trying to be (what she views as) accurate. she has an extreme view, and a fairly ham-handed way of presenting her opinions which comes off a lot worse-sounding than it actually is. I'm less worried about the implicit racism than about the implicit synthesis, but I haven't yet got her to see that. --Ludwigs2 09:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC) I didn't realise that Faye had not been alerted to this thread. I have notified her (Wapondaponda, here's a trout slap for you) and I have given her notice that she will be blocked if she continues to make derogatory comments about groups of people. This is not about "political correctness", this is about Faye being deliberately offensive. Arguing that the average IQ of black populations is lower than that of other populations and discussing why that might be is OK. Saying that "black people are stupid" is not OK. Fred, do you see the difference? One is acceptable scholarly discourse, the other is derogatory and inflammatory. Fences&Windows 02:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC) Of course I understand the difference, I'm also able to read at a sufficiently advanced level to understand that she didn't actually say that "black people are stupid". She asked a question about a theory, someone else's theory, she did not say that she held with that theory or even accuse anyone, let alone Blacks, of being stupid. All people seem to be doing is seeing those 3 little words "blacks are stupid" and instantly go into paroxysms of spluttering and the equivalent of "you can't say that these days". The point is that some people DO think blacks are stupid, some of them even scientists who aren't being racist. Therefore it's, in my humble opinion, fine to ask the question she asked, It isn't fine to say that she thinks they are, it isn't fine to accuse any particular person of stupidity, but in this world there are a lot of stupid people, some of them do happen to be black. Similarly an awful lot are caucsian/asian/chinese/manchunian/blonde/freckled/female/lactose intolerant. In her defence her autism is going to be a distinct disadvantage due to the social filters not functioning properly, after all it is a communication disorder and I believe she should be given more latitude than normal. It's not her fault she doesn't have that little voice over her shoulder warning her "don't say it quite like that". It would also be helpful if there wasn't so many knees moving through 90 degrees from the faux liberals. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 02:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC) My error, I apologize for that, I did inform her of the thread at WQA where the user did respond and I posted a link from WQA to this thread. But I should have specifically informed the user about this thread. I agree with Fences and windows that there is a difference between scholarly discussion of group differences and referring to certain groups in a derogatory manner. I think latitude has been given, these comments have taken place over a period of 5 weeks so this not a knee-jerk reaction. Regardless of the user's condition she is aware that she makes offensive statements. Obviously one needs a thick skin when editing controversial articles, but even with thick skinned editing, the above comments are quite unhelpful. Wapondaponda (talk) 05:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC) A little off topic... but has anyone else noticed that User:TechnoFaye's user page displays what appears to be a giant naked photograph of her? I'm aware of WP:NOTCENSORED but as far as I'm aware user page content is supposed to be at least marginally related to Wikipedia. - DustFormsWords (talk) 06:54, 25 March 2010 (UTC) yeah, I scratched my head over that too. I figured it's relatively tasteful, and wasn't overtly violating any policies, so it got filed in the 'too trivial to worry about' category. --Ludwigs2 09:40, 25 March 2010 (UTC) <- TechnoFaye (talk · contribs) claims to have taken this picture [7] herself File:Bpesta.jpg. This is clearly not the case and is a copyvio. Why did she lie? Mathsci (talk) 07:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC) Faye has (as should be evident, and as she herself admits) some form of mild autism (or perhaps some other minor developmental disorder - I'm not sure if her claims of autism stem from self-diagnosis). I have been trying to be tolerant of that, and guide her towards some more socially acceptable modes of interaction, with limited success. however, because of this thread (and Mathsci's complaints below) I am putting the mediation discussion on a strict civility program; I am going to start insisting on 3-day breaks from the discussion for any editor who cannot refrain from making disparaging comments about other editors. I'm going to try a firm hand for a little while on the page, and see if we can capitalize on the progress we'e made and break through the points of stubbornness that are currently plaguing the page. If you ask me, we can close/table this discussion for a week and see what progress a new approach can make. --Ludwigs2 09:06, 25 March 2010 (UTC) I think she's likely a fantasist, that's not really relevant except in that it informs judgment of her on-wiki behaviour. Which is ... eccentric. I think there is a need for a mentor of some kind. Guy (Help!) 10:05, 27 March 2010 (UTC) Criticism of mediation on Race and intelligence Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-12/Race and Intelligence Race and intelligence I looked at the main page to which TechnoFaye contributes and there seems to be a much deeper problem. Mediation started in November on this topic, initially under the supervision of Reubzz (talk · contribs), who shortly afterwards disappeared and had no prior experience at all as a mediator. The mediator was changed to Xavexgoem (talk · contribs) and then Wordsmith (talk · contribs). At present mediation is unsupervised - a completely chaotic free-for-all. At the very beginning of mediation last year, there were sensible statements and discussions. That does not seem to be the case now. Various users involved in the mediation are no longer present (eg myself, on wikibreak in Cambridge, and Ramdrake (talk · contribs), who hasn't edited wikipedia for 2 months). Currently the page does not seem to be serving any useful purpose. It seems to be frequented largely by WP:SPAs and a coterie of highly problematic users, with some exceptions (eg Slrubenstein (talk · contribs)). TechnoFaye's contributions and directing of the mediation page do not seem to be particularly helpful, nor her choice of language. The page is in no way a mediation page any more. Please could administrators or mediators explain what is going on and attempt to restore some order? There is no record on the page as to who is moderating at present (surely not Ludwigs2 (talk · contribs)?). Mathsci (talk) 05:59, 25 March 2010 (UTC) I am not quite sure how this kind of poorly written synthesis[8] by an anonymous IP from Brussels Race_and_intelligence#Ten_argument_supporting_the_existence_of_race_differences_in_IQ_scores_between_whites_and_blacks.5B71.5D from a single questionable source (Richard Lynn) made its way into the article Race and intelligence. I'm afraid this kind of writing reminds me of what can be read on far right websites like Stormfront (website), except their English is better. It is some of the worst writing I have seen on wikipedia to date, ungrammatical, picked from one dubious source and sometimes making little or no sense. It shows that there is a major problem with the article and mediation. The article has never been in such an unbalanced and unreadable state before. SPAs, who now seem to dominate the article, have left this unencyclopedic and completely WP:UNDUE material in the article, still claiming there is some kind of neutral mediator in their recent edit summaries. That does not seem to be the case. Mathsci (talk) 06:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC) Mathsci - nice of you to ask me, but yes, I am still mediating there. I've been letting the page run a bit, for a number of reasons: (1) to save myself from burnout (it's a difficult crew) (2) to keep myself looking draconian (I have the urge to impose order severely at times, but I resist - don't see that as my position), and (3) to let some of the steam of the participants burn off. if you have a problem with my mediation style, you are free to use my talk page to discuss the matter with me, but I'd prefer that you don't go posting notices about me on ANI without notification. since you've brought it up, however, would you like to discuss the matter now? --Ludwigs2 07:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC) My comments make it quite clear that I had no idea who the mediator was. It is not announced on the page. Presumably, since I was inscribed early in the mediation, you should have sought my approval. Unfortunately I think there have been many long term problems with your own edits on wikipedia, which indicate that you are not a neutral party and completely unsuitable as a mediator. Your edits are wikilawyering par excellence - you've been doing so above. From the archived talk page, you appear to have hijacked the initial stages of mediation conducted under the two experienced mediators mentioned above. I suggest the mediation be terminated and the article returned to some previous state, so that it looks slightly less like illiterate right wing propaganda. No experienced mediator would have allowed this nonsense to stay in the article for two weeks. This is just disruption, Ludwigs2, and possibly worthy of a block of some kind. This should be discussed here by administrators and experienced mediators, not hidden away on your talk page. Mathsci (talk) 08:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC) <- Just a reminder of what you as mediator allowed in the article for two weeks: Ten argument supporting the existence of race differences in IQ scores between whites and blacks 1. The two races have evolved independently of one another and in different environments over a period of one hundred thousand years. When two populations evolve in isolation from one another during such period there are differences that appear in all areas where there are possibilities of genetic variation. The extreme environmentalist position, assuming there are no intellectual differences between races defy the general principle of biological evolution and can be seen as impossible. 2. The Africans obtain an I.Q quite similar in many different locations: this must be regarded as evidence of a strong genetic factor. 3. The high heritability found among twins in America, Europe, Japan and India shows that intelligence is largely determined by genetic factors. 4.The cranial volume differences between Caucasian and black show the existence of genetic factors, because the heritability of cranial volume is 0.9 and the correlation between intelligence and cranial volume is 0.4. 5. Many egalitarians have suggested that white racism could reduce the IQ of blacks, but there is no explanation that can explain how racism might reduce IQ, and then why the IQ of black Africans in Africa would he 67? If racism diminishes intelligence, it is curious that the Jews of America and England have an IQ of 108, then they have been exposed to racism for centuries. The high IQ of American Jews is well known since 1930. 6. Black children adopted by white parents get the same scores as predicting racial. There is still difference of 17 IQ points between whites and blacks raised in the same conditions. Being raised by white adoptive parents had no positive effect on the intelligence of blacks. 7. The IQ of hybrids is intermediate between the two parental breeds, as well as the cranial volume, which is also the intermediary between the two parental breeds. 8. It has been shown a significant difference between races in terms of reaction time. The reaction time is correlated with IQ, because both of them are eficiente signs of central nervous system. The average Caucasian react more quickly to a stimulus. 9. The more white admixture, the greater the average brain weight of an African high (genetic testing beyond the color of the skin). 10. Racial differences in cranial capacity are correlated with 76 musculoskeletal traits identified in standard works of evolutionary anatomy as systematically related to an increase in cranial capacity in hominids. Mathsci (talk) 08:37, 25 March 2010 (UTC) I offered to take over the mediation a good long while ago, when the last mediator quit in frustration: there was a sizable discussion about it, and the editors who participated in the discussion all agreed. I'm sorry you missed that discussion, but there's not a whole lot I can do about it now unless you want to reopen the issue on the mediation page. I have been expecting the participants in the mediation to reach some consensus which would mean a major revision of the entire article, and I was aware that the participants were monitoring the article itself for changes. sorry this bit slipped in, but it would have been gone by now had the consensus been reached In deference to you, I've gone ahead and announced a stronger approach on the mediation page, and will begin pursuing it tomorrow. beyond that, I am not concerned with your (thoroughly misguided) impressions of me. As I said, if you have a problem with me personally, take it up on my talk page (or through one of the numerous dispute resolution processes wikipedia has to offer). However, if you just want to talk shit about me, no one is interested. --Ludwigs2 08:49, 25 March 2010 (UTC) The article is in a hopeless state. I have no idea why you sought to mediate such a controversial article, given your own record on wikipedia. (It is not dissimilar to GoRight offering to act as Abd's mentor.) That you missed the above glaringly awful insertion, until I pointed it out now, is a clear sign that you don't have the qualities required to mediate. At least User:Reubzz left personal messages on talk pages and clearly edited the mediation pages to explain what was going on. You don't even seem to have bothered monitoring the article recently. Please stop treating wikipedia as some kind of game. Mathsci (talk) 09:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC) again, this is a topic you should bring up on the mediation page. if you don't want me as mediator, I'm certainly not imposing myself on the situation, and a nice discussion of the matter there would resolve the issue. or is there some reason you keep wanting to harp on it here, where it won't do a darned bit of good? with respect to your problematic passage - if you have good reason to remove it, remove it. you don't need a mediator for that, unless it becomes a matter of contention between you and another editor. as I said, it is not my place as mediator to make content decisions for you. --Ludwigs2 09:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC) Incidentally, Mathsci, we have you yourself not removed this section, since you seem to object to it? I am mediating this article, which limits my capacity to make editorial decisions (I'm not here to take sides in editorial disputes, but rather to try to develop some kind of consensus). as an interested editor, you should be the one monitoring the article for inappropriate material. --Ludwigs2 08:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC) In its present state I wouldn't touch the article - this was only one of the things wrong with it. I wrote above that it should be returned to a much earlier state. I see very little hope for it at the moment, given the current circumstances. Mathsci (talk) 09:08, 25 March 2010 (UTC) if you are not going to touch the article, then shall I remove your name from the list of mediation participants? The possibility of reverting the article to an earlier state was discussed in mediation, but there was no consensus on the matter, and I didn't want to impose a solution. the issue will be resolved as soon as we reach a consensus in mediation, since the entire page will be revised, or you can reopen that thread for further discussion if you like. so, now, what is your reason for wanting this section removed? is it unsourced? no. is it a misrepresentation? I don't know, do you? is it clear synthesis? not that I can see, but I'm willing to be convinced (because I don't like the passage any more than you do). give me an argument for removing it and I will remove it; don't expect me as mediator to remove material that (superficially, at least) seems to conform to wikipedia's policies and guidelines. --Ludwigs2 09:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC) I only add citations and sources to that article, and very seldom. I am aware, however, of the academic literature. I'll leave you to figure out on your own what is wrong with the above passage and why it blatantly violates several of wikipedia's core policies. As a clue, here is an article edit I made yesterday.[9] Mathsci (talk) 09:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC) well, thanks for the hint, but I have no idea what it means. are you making some comment about referencing or complaining that the statistics in the section is bad? can race be modeled using hermite polynomials? and what does this have to do with core policies? --Ludwigs2 09:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC) If you're asking questions like that, you seem clueless about editing wikipedia. The statements are improperly sourced from a single source. Statements like "The high IQ of American Jews is well known since 1930" need some kind of inline citation and exact quotation. Controversial statements, that are improperly sourced, are not normally permitted on wikipedia. Likewise the statement about the average African IQ. Honestly, Ludwigs2, your statements about editing articles are singularly clueless. With less than 1,500 article edits to your name, that doesn't seem very surprising. Your replies at the moment are verging on "trolling". Mathsci (talk) 15:05, 25 March 2010 (UTC) I agree with some of Mathsci's observations, some oversight by experienced editors may be necessary. I get the feeling that this mediation is taking place tucked away in a hidden corner of wikipedia and without the support of the broader community. It would be also useful if some experienced editors could evaluate whether the mediation in its current state has the potential of being fruitful. If it has no potential, then maybe as Mathsci suggested, it would be best to have it terminated. If there is still hope, then some supervision would be necessary to ensure that the mediation process and its results are consistent with the views of the broader community. Wapondaponda (talk) 14:46, 25 March 2010 (UTC) @ Mathsci:If that's your belief, then again, I don't know why you haven't removed the passage. someone else went ahead and did it, and so the problem is obviated, but still... @ Wapondaponda: again, I'm not doing this for love or money. if you don't want me to mediate, bring it up on the mediation talk page as a matter for discussion. I'm not interested in being supervised (though I'm happy to take any advice anyone has to offer). if you want another mediator to take over, find one and suggest them Now, let's close this discussion (which is not an ANI matter in any sense of the word) and reopen it on the mediation talk page if you so desire To be precise the material was removed [10], then reverted [11], then removed again [12]. Hardly straightforward. If I hadn't pointed it out, this nonsense would still be in the article. How I edit has nothing at all to do with what is being discussed. When mediation started I made a careful statement about what should happen to the article, which had consensus. Your own actions as self-appointed "mediator" have not helped in the slightest. I only see complete disarray. Mathsci (talk) 18:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC) Ludwigs, I have not made any comments concerning you being a mediator. My concern is with the process in general. With the persistent incivility, I have just gotten the feeling that the mediation is on autopilot, and nobody cares. Currently Slrubenstein is probably the only experienced editor participating in the mediation. I would be happier if there were more experienced editors who are not effectively WP:SPAs looking at the article. Wapondaponda (talk) 18:03, 25 March 2010 (UTC) <- I have to agree with Muntuwandi here. Slrubenstein is one of the few experienced editors remaining in the discussions. My own feeling is that an administrator experienced in mediation, such as Shell Kinney or WJBscribe, should be consulted about the current anomolous situation. Since Ludwigs2 (talk · contribs) is relatively inexperienced both as an editor and a mediator, he should certainly not be trying to suppress discussion, which involves his role amongst other things. Mathsci (talk) 18:46, 25 March 2010 (UTC) There also seems to be an inaccessible part of the talk archives result from this edit.[13] That is now in Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-12/Race and Intelligence/Archive 0. It contained the opening statements amongst other things. I have no idea how that can be corrected. Mathsci (talk) 19:49, 25 March 2010 (UTC) okie dokie. feel free to continue this discussion and let me know if I'm needed. for my part, I will ignore this thread (and and any results it produces) and wait for you to open a discussion of the topic on the mediation page, where it belongs. thanks for sharing, though. --Ludwigs2 19:39, 25 March 2010 (UTC) For the record: Ludwigs did not "appoint himself" mediator. We held a discussion about Ludwigs taking over the role of mediator, and all of the then-active editors (myself, Ramdrake, Slrubenstein, Aprock, Alun, Mikemikev, Captain Occam, TechnoFaye) agreed to it. I think Ludwigs is doing just fine given the circumstances, and I don't think the hyper-criticism taking place here is helping anything. --Aryaman (talk) 19:54, 25 March 2010 (UTC) Ludwig is not doing an unreasonable job, although he certainly has a hands off approach, and seems to be aligned with a specific faction of editors. This hasn't been a huge problem, but it does creep out from time to time. A.Prock (talk) 02:46, 26 March 2010 (UTC) So, you're saying that the mediator is not impartial, but aligned with one of the factions involved in the mediation, and he allows stuff to go into the article without check (just curious - is it stuff that's favored by the faction he's aligned with?), but all that is just peachy with you and he's doing a bang-up job, all considered? Is that the gist of what you've just said? Who's in charge of that zoo? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:45, 26 March 2010 (UTC) There are two things you ought to keep in mind about this. The first is that assuming Aprock’s opinion here is the same one he’s expressed on the mediation talk page, his opinion is that Ludwig is biased against his side, not in favor of it. So if Ludwig’s possible bias against Aprock’s position isn’t enough to bother Aprock, that should mean it probably isn’t enough to matter significantly. And the other thing to keep in mind is that both of the “factions” involved in this article have claimed that Ludwig is biased against them. If you look at some of TechnoFaye’s posts on the mediation talk page, you’ll see that she’s accused Ludwig of being biased against her position at least as often as Aprock has accused him of the same thing in his own case, even though within the context of this debate, TechnoFaye’s and Aprock’s positions are pretty much exact opposites of one another. Ludwig gets accused of being biased against both positions about as frequently as one another, and which it is depends on the position of the person making the accusation—everyone always claims he’s biased against them, not in favor of them. I don’t think it’s possible for Ludwig to be simultaneously biased against both of the two groups that are debating over this article. What looks more likely to me is that both of these groups are unhappy with having to compromise, so Ludwig’s unwillingness to concede to all of the demands from either side is being mistaken for bias. And that’s a problem with some of the users involved in the article, not with Ludwig. Personally, I’ve found Ludwig’s hands-off style of mediation to be bothersome on occasion (such as when he didn’t intervene in situations where we’d asked him to, or where he’d told us he was going to), but bias is one problem that I don’t think he has. I’m also expecting the inaction problem that I mentioned to improve now that he’s promised to become more actively involved in the mediation. I think that Ludwig’s ability to continue mediating the article at all says a lot about his ability in this respect, considering that two mediators with considerably more experience (Xavexgoem and The Wordsmith), working together, gave up on this after spending less time on it than Ludwig has. Based on what happened with Xavexgoem and The Wordsmith, I suspect that almost any two mediators placed in Ludwig’s position probably would have given up long before this. --Captain Occam (talk) 07:47, 26 March 2010 (UTC) <- Ludwigs2 has longstanding problems on wikipedia. In the past on Race and intelligence, there have been a series of problematic editors. Fourdee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was banned by Jimbo; MoritzB (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was indefinitely blocked; Jagz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was a long-time problematic editor who with Zero g (talk · contribs), was taken under Elonka's wing. Ludwigs2 was one of the few users who claimed that Jagz should return to editing (he used to make good edits to scouting articles, as Rlevse pointed out). Ludwigs2 is currently having a feud with BullRangifer/Fyslee and has a history of pushing fringe science ideas on altmed articles. His cavalier attitude to the nonsense that was inserted into R&I underlines why he is totally unsuitable as a mediator in a controversial article where the mainstream academic viewpoint has to be made crystal clear. His reaction to this material seemed to be an attempt to game the system rather than assume the reponsibilities of a mediator: he immediately personalised the discussion in a kind of wikilawyering way, asking why I didn't like the material and why I had not removed it; at no stage did he recognize it for the blatant violation of multiple wikipedia policies that it evidently is. It might be that he has been sympathetic to users pushing a certain point of view, like Captain Occam and Varoon Arya. Irrespective of this, however, his past and present activities on-wiki disqualify him from acting as a mediator. There seems to be no good reason for continuing mediation in these circumstances. It started off fine, once events had moved past the brief guest appearance of would-be mediator Reubzz (talk · contribs), but is now in a total mess. Those pushing minoritarian points of view might possibly benefit from this mess, but the article certainly won't. Mathsci (talk) 10:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC) As I see it, mediattion is not about control of a page, it is about resolving disputes among editors. So far, mediation has focused on resolving disputes among a list of editors who have been regular or active contributors to the page; the mediator has focused on disputes among these individuals, and has not focused on the article itself. I have no problem with this - I think the plan is IF we can all agree on the overal structure and contents of the article, at that point the entire article will be redrafted. Again, I have no problem with this. Ludwigs2 is mediating because no one else would. I think that the mediationis taking a long time and could use a more forceful mediator, but given the questions about Ludwigs2's sympathies, i can understand why he has not been very forceful. Mathsci, are you volunteering to take over mediation? Is there someone else who is qualified, acceptable to parties, and willing? I will tell you my major complaint about the mediation and the mediator. Several people who signed on as parties to the mediation - Wobble, Ramdrake, and Futurebird, among others - have not participated for some time. This in my mind realy delegitimizes the mediation, because it is no longer a mediation between editors who are in conflict, it is becoming a discussion board for editors who all agree with one another (Varoon Arya, Captain Occan, Mikemikev, Technofaye, to a lesser degree DJ). I am not saying that these people should in any way be silenced or their views deprecated. I am saying that when the people who have most been in conflict with the parties I just named ar not actively participating in the mediation, then it is no longer a mediation, it is no longer a form of dispute resolution - it is turning into a wikiproject run by Varoon Arya and Captain Occam and friends. I do not want Varoon Arya and Captain Occam to leave - they are important parties to the mediation. But if this is to be an honest form of conflict resolution, then the parties n conflict with Varoon Arya and Captain Occam have to participate too. I do not know why Futurebird, Ranmdrake, and Wobble are not active. There may be other editors who have contributed to the article and who have been in conflict with Varoon Arya or Captain Occam, who have not been actively participating in the mediation. (Maybe including MathSci??) I think one of the tasks of the mediator is to ensure that an environment that makes parties feel that their participatin in the mediation is worth it, be maintained. Rather than question the mediators motives or agenda, I ask him simply to contact those partices to the mediation who seem to have disappeared; find out why they are no longer active; if any of their reasons have to do with the dynamics on the mediation page, then I think themediator has a responsibility to change the dynamics so that all parties feel that the mediation is making progress and that their participation is worth it. Ludwigs2, you could start by communicationg with Futurebird, Ramdrake, Wobble, I suggest off-wiki - to learn their perceptions and views and discuss what kinds of changes could bring them 9and others) back, and then consider whether such changes really would help the mediation. But when half the parties to mediation have disappeared, I take it as a sign that there is a major problem with the diation. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:20, 26 March 2010 (UTC) And while the mediator is concentrating on the parties and ignoring the article, we're presenting very egegious misinformation to the public. The mediation process must take a reasonable amount of time, it can't go on for so long that the project's quality control suffers. WP:FRINGE needs to be applied to this topic. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:40, 26 March 2010 (UTC) @Slrubenstein. Thanks for commenting here. You bring up several important points. I think it is absolutely essential that mediation concentrates on the article not on the behaviour of contributors. It is also very worrying that the editors you mention have left the article during mediation (I would add T34CH): this does not help in reaching consensus, particularly if most of the participants that are left favour a minoritarian point of view. My own feeling is that an extremely experienced senior mediator is required for this kind of controversial article: someone who has contributed significantly to mainstream articles and several other mediation cases. However, since two such mediators have abandoned mediation, finding such a mediator does not seem very realistic. Mathsci (talk) 15:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC) move to close by Ludwigs2 Allow me to point out that User:Mathsci and user:Beyond My Ken have hijacked this thread entirely to make bizarre and uncivl attacks on me and my character. let's point out some basic facts: The thread was originally about user:TechnoFaye, but that discussion seems to have disappeared The consideration of whether I should stay or step down from mediation belongs on the mediation page. I'm happy to do so if that's the consensus, and will not do so if the consensus there is that I should remain The issue of whether the mediation has failed and should be closed belongs on the mediation page The issue of the state of the article itself is irrelevant: I'm not an admin, I'm not the page watchdog, and I am trying to maintain a neutral position in any disputes. The issue of whether I have a particular bias, while relevant, belongs on the mediation page with respect to point 1. I don't personally believe I've displayed anything like a bias on the page (and have made an effort to keep my viewpoints, where and when I have them, strictly private). I have had disputes with both of these editors before, and apparently they are holding a pretty strong grudge against me, but that is not an excuse for them to go off spitting and screaming whenever they see my name mentioned in any context. If they have some actionable claim to make against me, let them make it in a proper place and context. If they don't, to hell with them both. ANI is not the correct place for a pair of editors to indulge in overt idiocy of this sort. I'd like an admin to formally close this discussion as a witchhunt, please, otherwise I will be obliged to open a new section on this page asking for sanctions against these editors under wp:NPA, and this situation will get progressively more unpleasant. --Ludwigs2 16:31, 26 March 2010 (UTC) Ok, no response. with that in mind, I will once again archive the above section as non-ANI material. Fair warning: any editor who wants to unarchive it should first provide a detailed explanation of why this is an issue needing ANI attention, in this section, or I will ask to have you blocked for personal attacks and disruptive editing. --Ludwigs2 (adding belated sig) It's unlikely that such a demand would have any effect other than to get you blocked for WP:OWN and WP:DE. 24 hours is the usual minimum time allowed for people to make comments, not five. People here come from every time zone on the planet. Guy (Help!) 09:51, 27 March 2010 (UTC) Yes. indeed. I can only say that Ludwigs2 is quite mistaken and again, by his intemperate and exaggerated response, illustrates his unsuitability for any role in supervising other users' edits on wikipedia. Since Ludwigs2 is now using intemperate words like "idiocy", here is a reminder of the opening statement in mediation, incorrectly archived in Wikipedia_talk:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2009-11-12/Race_and_Intelligence/Archive_0. "I by and large agree with Slrubenstein's statement, particularly that the focus of the article should become stable and that the article talk page should not become a forum for open-ended debate. The article at present does not cover all of the recent major academic contributions to this debate and should make every attempt to do so in an even-handed way. The hereditarian point of view should be carefully outlined, but without giving a false impression of its degree of acceptance. As Slr has written the "open letter" in the WSJ by a self-selected and like-minded group of academics should not receive WP:UNDUE weight, if other distinguished academics have expressed disagreement (as is the case). At present there has not been a systematic attempt to ensure that the broad spectrum of mainstream academic opinion has been properly represented. One problem is that the very narrow topic of a possible correlation between race, whatever that means, and intelligence, whatever that means, has not been widely studied in academia. This makes it hard to write an article on it for an encyclopedia, since many aspects will remain inconclusive because they either have not been sufficiently studied or have not been deemed worthy to be studied. Scrupulous attention should be paid to not ignoring or dismissing important sources, particularly those by eminent academics. Perhaps the most important point is that all key sources should first be carefully identified. These should be carefully summarised in the article, without prejudice. If only a handful of academics favour a particular viewpoint, i.e. it is a minoritarian viewpoint, that should be made clear. There does not seem to be any evidence that "Race and Intelligence" is a major topic of research, discussion or debate in the majority of academic departments specializing in psychometrics or related disciplines. We should be extremely cautious not to approach the writing of this article with that viewpoint. Mathsci (talk) 23:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC) Ludwigs2 is not assisting in any way in helping the article to become stable as I described in November. Quite the contrary - there has been a proliferation of minoritarian viewpoints. The threats, bullying language and unsupported insults that Ludwigs2 has now resorted to are inadmissible. Mathsci (talk) 11:12, 27 March 2010 (UTC) Other users - please do not edit my comments. That is a blockable offense. Mathsci (talk) 00:38, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Proposal The evidence presented by Mathsci above indicates that Ludwigs2 lacks the necessary experience to mediate such a contentious case, and some questions have been raised about his impartiality. I think we should thank Ludwigs for trying to help, but ask that he step aside and allow someone with more experience, especially in judging and weighing academic sources, to take over. Guy (Help!) 09:57, 27 March 2010 (UTC) I disagree with this proposal. Two mediators with considerably more experience than Ludwig, Xavexgoem and The Wordsmith, have already attempted to mediate this article and given up after approximately a month. Whatever you think about Ludwig’s lack of experience, he’s been able to accomplish more in terms of reaching consensus than these two experienced mediators were able to accomplish working together. We now have a list of resolved points that all of the editors actively involved in the mediation have reached consensus about, and we’re also very close to reaching consensus about the article’s overall structure. And this isn’t just because certain perspectives about this topic aren’t being represented in the mediation case: even :though Alun and Ramdrake have stopped participating in the mediation, their perspective about this does not differ significantly from the perspective of Slrubenstein, Aprock and Muntuwandi, who have been included in the consensus we’ve reached about the items I mentioned. Experience evidently isn’t the only thing that matters here, since a pair of experienced mediators were able to accomplish virtually nothing with this article, while Ludwig has enabled us to reach consensus on a fair amount. If Ludwig is replaced with another mediator based on this criterion, it will most likely be a repeat of what we experienced while Xavexgoem and The Wordsmith were mediating it. Mathsci was part of the mediation for this article early on, but for some reason he dropped out of it shortly after it began. Since he hasn’t been able to influence the direction it’s taken beyond that point, some of what the rest of us have decided since then evidently differs from what he would have preferred. If he had continued to participate in the mediation over the past four months, this might not have happened. But it has, and that’s really what this discussion is about, apart from the personal conflicts Mathsci is bringing up that he’s had with Ludwig in the past. If Mathsci is dissatisfied with the direction this article’s mediation has taken, the proper place to bring it up would be in the mediation itself. He’s been signed into it for months; he’s just been choosing to not participate in it, and now he’s bringing up his resulting disagreements with it at AN/I instead. I agree that this discussion doesn’t belong at AN/I. Where it belongs is on the mediation talk page, and if Mathsci were to bring up his issues there in the same way as everyone who has expectations for this article, then Ludwig would probably listen to them in the same way that he’s listened to the same thing from everyone else there. You’ll notice that everyone commenting in this thread who’s actively involved in the mediation, regardless of the position they take, approves of the job Ludwig has been doing with this. All of us who are actually subjected to his authority think he’s using it in an acceptable manner, and the only person who thinks otherwise is someone who’s been voluntarily choosing not to participate in the mediation since before Ludwig was in charge of it. --Captain Occam (talk) 12:35, 27 March 2010 (UTC) This series of comments beginning with Mathsci's interjection represents exactly the kind of "accusations and side-discussions within a discussion" which are supposed to be avoided on this page. I request that an administrator put a halt to this "discussion" and instruct Mathsci to discuss this issue with Ludwigs, either on his talkpage or on the mediation discussion page. --Aryaman (talk) 13:24, 27 March 2010 (UTC) I agree with this proposal. Mediation has gone on now too long (five months) without much to show for it, except a much worse article, and seems in disarray. It could be that Ludwigs2's participation benefits the above two editors, who appear to favour a minoritarian point of view : Race and intelligence is one of the principal articles they concentrate on in mainspace. The unchecked comments of TechnoFaye about the intelligence of population groups on the mediation page are just another symptom of the fact that the mediation process is in disarray. This is an appropriate public place to discuss this point, not in some hidden-away corner of wikipedia. Again, the problem is with the mediator and his editing history. Mathsci (talk) 14:32, 27 March 2010 (UTC) Mathsci has not tried to discuss these concerns of his in the mediation, where this kind of criticism can be properly addressed. Instead he is using AN/I as a platform to give air to his sudden lack of good faith in the goals of the mediation, to defame editors he apparently does not like and to seek support for torpedoing a mediation he chose to stop participating in some time ago. He was not pushed out of the mediation, and his views/suggestions/comments were not marginalized or disregarded. These charges of incompetency on the part of Ludwigs are unsubstantiated, and Mathsci summarily ignores all the progress which has been made during the mediation under Ludwigs' supervision. Again, I request that an administrator put an end to this "proposal" and direct interested parties to either the mediation discussion page or to Ludwigs' talkpage. --Aryaman (talk) 15:03, 27 March 2010 (UTC) Regrettably, the mediation process has run aground. That seems to be what Slrubenstein is also saying. The process is delegitimized when a large group of editors abandon the mediation process, leaving mostly those representing a minoritarian point of view. The mediation pages are not the appropriate place to discuss this - they are a hidden little corner of wikipedia, currently for the most part frequented by like minded editors. FYI, my absence is explained by a wikibreak, a reduction in editing due to the teaching of a graduate course in Cambridge - that happens each year. Although Ludwigs2 offered to be mediator in good faith, from my point of view he does not have sufficient editing/mediation experience or impartiality to act as a mediator on such a complex article. Mathsci (talk) 15:26, 27 March 2010 (UTC) The mediation process can only "run aground", as Mathsci puts it, when disgruntled editors leave the mediation (and possibly start reproachful threads on AN/I) instead of discussing their concerns in the mediation. There is no reason to assume Mathsci's concerns would not be properly addressed in the context of the mediation. In fact, Ludwigs has invited Mathsci to return to the mediation and make mention of his concerns. If Mathsci wants the mediation to make what he sees as "improvements", it is incumbent upon him to help improve it through his active participation. At any rate, I (still) see no need for external administrator involvement at this time. --Aryaman (talk) 16:10, 27 March 2010 (UTC) I think you would find that a more skilled and experienced mediator would have avoided the drift away and would also (importantly) have helped to deliver markedly better content by now. This article certainly does not show the benefit of what should have been a process of intense focus and rigorous re-examination. Far from it. Guy (Help!) 18:15, 27 March 2010 (UTC) None of the participants in the mediation have edited the article since the inception of the mediation process other than to revert contentious edits made by external parties. We decided as a group to refrain from editing the article until we were able to agree upon an outline for our first major revision (the current topic of discussion), which is likely to begin sometime this coming week. It has taken a great deal of discussion to develop an outline with which everyone agrees, but we all acknowledge that this is a key factor in the hoped-for stability of the future article. As far as I know, Ramdrake suffers from serious health issues which prevent his being able to contribute for extended periods of time - something for which Ludwigs can in no way be held responsible. Other editors indicated early on that they would not be participating, either out of a lack of interest or a lack of time. Again, this has nothing to do with Ludwigs' qualifications as mediator. The reasoning behind this proposal is specious and the proposal itself is entirely uncalled for. --Aryaman (talk) 18:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC) Mathsci apparently had believed that the article mediation was going to result in a consensus that suited him. He has not been participating in the mediation and is instead now trying to derail the mediation by complaining to administrators. While his mathematical abilities are impressive, he has a history of problematic interactions with other editors on Wikipedia. I can understand why Wikipedia administrators are loathe to risk alienating Mathsci given his contributions to certain articles such as the ones on mathematics (that only other mathematicians can fully appreciate). Ludwigs2 seems to have been doing a reasonably good job and those involved in mediation should be glad he hasn't abandoned the mediation like three other mediators have already done. Perhaps the complaints against Ludwigs2 (which Captain Occam anticipated happening in February) are an attempt by Mathsci to redirect the mediation in a direction that he had originally anticipated it would go. Why would Mathsci choose to first raise his objections on this page instead of on the mediation page? As far as any changes to the article itself since the mediation began, a note at the top of the article states, "This article is currently being discussed in mediation. Please check with the mediator or other mediation participants before making any significant revisions, as the outcome of that discussion may involve major restructuring of the article." --74.178.247.39 (talk) 19:04, 27 March 2010 (UTC) The comments above, the first edits by this anonymous IP, make hardly any sense. My editing history shows that I have only edited mainstream articles on wikipedia - my edits on this particular article having been restricted to sources and citations. I have created articles in several parts of the arts and sciences - in mathematics, French culture, the history of art, classical music and biography. I am not an WP:SPA. I think I have enough experience, possibly more than the commentators above, to say when attempts at mediation have collapsed. Occasionally my professional academic life prevents me from regularly contributing to wikipedia at certain times of the year. That seems quite normal. Mathsci (talk) 00:21, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Proposal 2 Based on the the following observations. Undercurrent of hostility The initial mediators, Wordsmith and Xavexgoem, who I gather have some experience with mediation procedures, felt mediation was not worth pursuing. Xavexgoem specifically stated prior to leaving: "I'm having one helluva time figuring out where to go from here. The straw-poll established nothing, and I'm surprised to see the level of anger among some of you. I still have the suspicion that there's an undercurrent here that I'm not aware of. It's fairly obvious to think of what that would be. Anyone care to fill me in?"[14] I agree that the current atmosphere is not suitable for a productive mediation point. The incivility by User:TechnoFaye is also additional evidence of an environment not conducive to Mediation. This incivility has either been viewed as acceptable or may even have been tacitly supported. A few editors may have devoted most, if not all of their wiki-time to this dispute, and this may go 4 months back to before the mediation commenced. Though there is no policy against such, it is obviously not the most productive form of editing. Due to these observations, I propose the following. Suspend the mediation process Revert Race and intelligence to a stable pre-Mediation version. This is because when we signed on to the article, we agreed not to edit the article, and many of us have complied over the 4 months. Protect the article Race and intelligence for a month. There maybe editors who are itching to eidit war. Protection would allow a cooling down period, and would give editors and opportunity to reflect and asses what better ways exist to resolve this dispute. revisit the mediation in 1 month. These comments by Muntuwandi (talk · contribs) seem sensible. Mathsci (talk) 00:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I disagree with this proposal. I may have more to say about this later, but for now I’d like to point out that the article hasn’t existed in a stable state since late 2006 and early 2007. Lack of significant changes shouldn’t be mistaken for stability, because in this case the only reason for the lack of changes is because all of the editors who attempted to change anything became mired in endless discussions on the talk page about topics like the meaning of “race”, which made it impossible to obtain consensus for changing anything. Actual stability would involve the article being supported by consensus, rather than being uneditable because there’s never any consensus for either the article’s current state or any proposed changes. Resolving these questions is one of the purposes of mediation for this article. Most of them have been resolved by this point, which will hopefully result in the article soon becoming stable again for the first time in three years. If for some reason that ends up being impossible, I suppose reverting the article to the state it had before this became a problem would still be an improvement over the current version. However, reverting to any version more recent than that would not be any more stable than the article’s current state. Incidentally, is anyone going to respond to Varoon Arya’s point about accusations and side-discussions within a discussion being explicitly disallowed here? This thread was about possible incivility from TechnoFaye, and according to the policies for AN/I, everything we’ve been discussing that isn’t about that doesn’t belong here. --Captain Occam (talk) 01:04, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I wonder if this discussion doesn't show a certain amount of escalation that we should try to show is not necessary. If Mathsci has concerns with a mediation, then it seems these should be heard on the mediation page. Presumably then others can weigh in, and maybe solve the problem right there. If any editors wish to end a mediation, or even reject a particular mediator, isn't that their option to begin with? Requiring editors to come here, or requiring mediators to justify themselves here, don't either seem good for mediation generally. Mackan79 (talk) 01:44, 28 March 2010 (UTC) As has been said already, Mackan79, the mediation process has been delegitimized by the fact that many editors who had initially signed up for mediation (Ramdrake, futurebird, T34CH, Wobble) had stopped participating, leaving mostly those representing a minoritarian point of view and similarly minded newcomers. Aside from any other problems, the acting mediator had apparently not taken that into account. There were other anomalies (all the opening statements were buried away in a hidden talk archive). In circumstances like that I can't see that at any reasonable discussion of the process could take place on the mediation page; which is why I brought it here for wider input from the community, The edits of TechnoFaye acted as a kind of warning flare. I thank Xavexgoem for closing the case. Mathsci (talk) 08:56, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Closing the case sounds fine to me, certainly. Mediation is supposed to be entirely voluntary, and if someone who has been involved has such strong concerns it is hard to imagine it going forward. However, I also find this discussion a bit troubling. Consider perhaps your initial suggestion, that maybe Ludwig was doing such a bad job that he should even be blocked. Does a mediator deserve that? Presumably we shouldn't have to block a mediator just to end a mediation. It should be simple, I hope you agree. My thought is that it should be in everyone's interests to make sure concerns are addressed without things going so far into mutual recriminations. Mackan79 (talk) 19:38, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Closing the case I haven't read most of the thread, but I see a lot of politics. No mediation process is compatible with that, certainly not the mediation cabal. Currently, the case is so advanced that relisting it as new would be extremely taxing on the participants and the mediator (informal) that would pick it up. It's worth noting that this case went through four mediators: first Reubzz, who was run off[15]; then Wordsmith -- I can't speak for him -- then me, out of frustration. Then Ludwigs, who did get acceptance for taking over the mediation (that's why I left it open). I'm closing the case now. How editors choose to work with each other after that is entirely up to them. I'm not optimistic; show me something new. Xavexgoem (talk) 05:45, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Reubzz showed a lot of promise. That was extremely unfortunate. I am very concerned you would close this without reading it. We're really on the point of a solution, and this is a last ditch attempt by a dubious coterie of POV pushers, including Mathsci, to derail a neutral implementation. I believe, Xavegoem, that as someone who 'gave up' (in your own words), you are unsuitable to make this decision. mikemikev (talk) 08:50, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Ahem, Xavexgoem is chairman of the Mediation Committee. I agree with him about Reubzz; it's a pity he couldn't have started on a less contentious mediation case. I have no idea why Mikemikev, an editor with very little experience in editing wikipedia outside this area, calls me a POV-pusher: that is a wildly inaccurate misrepresentation of both my editing record and the opening statement in mediation reproduced above. Mikemikev could get blocked if he continues making unsupportable personal attacks like that. Mathsci (talk) 09:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Note that Ludwigs2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has ignored the closure of mediation by Xavexgoem. He has left messages at several users' pages. [16], [17],[18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24]. He is acting as if mediation has not formally been closed. He describes Xavexgoem, the chairman of the mediation committee, as a "third party" [25] He is engaging in disruptive wikilawyering. Not for the first time. Mathsci (talk) 11:37, 28 March 2010 (UTC) As Xavexgoem states, they "haven't read most of the thread", "the case is so advanced that relisting it as new would be extremely taxing on the participants and the mediator", and that several mediators have already quit. If mediator Rebuzz was run off, it was primarily because of complaints by Mathsci. Yet, Xavexgoem seems to be bowing to the complaints of a couple of squeaky wheels and attempting to close mediation without discussion on the mediation page, despite the fact that mediation was on the verge of leading to a rewrite of the article. Why scuttle mediation at a time when it was finally getting ready to bear fruit? --74.178.247.70 (talk) 15:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I have reopened the case, yes. it's voluntary process, and there has been no discussion on the talk page about closure, and precious little deliberation about it here. what we have is one single mediation participant (Mathsci) who has not contributed anything to the mediation page in months, deciding to to play wiki-politics here instead of discussing the issues there. That is his prerogative, I suppose, but I don't see that it really matters. Xavexgoem, if you would like to discuss closing the case peremptorily, I've opened a thread on the Mediation Cabal talk page for that purpose. But as far as I a can see, if the mediation participants themselves do not want a closure and that matter has not been discussed on the mediation page at all, then there is no grounds for any action by non-participants. --Ludwigs2 11:55, 28 March 2010 (UTC) MedCom has nothing to do with this; this is MedCab. I won't argue against consensus, so you can keep the case. Just don't needlessly drag it on. (I'd also like to say that Ludwigs has been doing a fine job, despite MathSci's and Guy's appraisals calling into question). Xavexgoem (talk) 15:00, 28 March 2010 (UTC) And I'm sorry. sigh. I reverted Ludwigs' reversion and left him a note. I think Xavexgoem is on the money, it's extremely unlikely that Ludwigs will be able to steer this to any kind of resolution at this point not least because at least some participants appear to be unwilling to accept him as mediator any more. It's not the first time a mediation attempt has failed, it's not a black mark or anything, but this one is probably in need of some new approach. Guy (Help!) 17:06, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Aaaaand, predictably, he reverted again while I was typing this note. So, we have someone who is determined to try to keep a stalled mediation going forever in the face of opposition from some of the parties. Will that produce better content? Um, probably not. Guy (Help!) 17:11, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Allow me to repeat the same points, once again: There is no consensus here at ANI to close the mediation There is no consensus at the mediation page to close the mediation There is no discussion at the mediation page to close the mediation Every other participant in the mediation who has shown up here is arguing against closure There is only you and Mathsci suddenly appearing out of nowhere like avenging angels (though I have no idea what it is you are avenging) Now, if you want to open a discussion in the mediation about closing the mediation, please do so - if that is the consensus, then that will be fine. but please do not try to impose your will by edit-warring the case closed.--Ludwigs2 17:38, 28 March 2010 (UTC) The mediation is stalled due to this disruptive ANI thread. --98.82.13.18 (talk) 18:05, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I'd suggest that anyone who wants to close the mediation should register that opinion on the mediation page, where it could be discussed. Assuming it is a good faith request from someone interested in the article, I don't see how the mediation could go forward. It is a little peculiar if Mathsci wants to close it, but does not want to participate in editing the article, which isn't to say that is reasonable or unreasoanble. In that case perhaps someone who Mathsci has expressed faith in, such as Slrubenstein, could offer a meaningful thought on whether the mediation should be scrapped. I don't think it would take consensus to scrap the mediation, probably at most a single person who is interested in editing the article and rejects the mediation. Unfortunately it's hard to tell whether there is any meaningful communication taking place. Mackan79 (talk) 19:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I don't think a numerical count of votes on the mediation pages is helpful. 4 out of the original 10 who subscribed to mediation in November 2009 are no longer involved; none of them have been pushing the minoritarian point of view. I agree that Slrubenstein is one of the few editors whose views on mediation would be valuable (this is not the first time that mediation has occurred on the article). I have edited the article only to add sources and citations, but help more on the talk page with this (eg I pointed out the contributions of Richard Nesbitt and requested that the section on racial stereotypes be removed). Like cold fusion, Race and intelligence is not a properly encyclopedic article and probably never can be; however, scrupulous attention to the quality of sources can at least keep it under control. In other words the same core criteria for editing wikipedia articles should be used as on any mainstream article. Let's put it this way. The group of editors now left in mediation, with the exception of a small number including Slrubenstein and Aprock, all favour the minoritarian point of view. No meaningful consensus can be achieved in those circumstances. Since Ludwigs2 was a would-be participant in mediation and would-be editor of the article, he is more than aware that is what has happened. In those circumstances there is no legitimacy in continuing mediation. Ludwigs2 is a problematic editor, apparently now determined to keep his role as mediator, even after most of the editors who initially subscribed to mediation have abandoned it. One of my worries with most of the editors favouring the minoritarian point of view is that most of them have hardly any experience in editing normal mainstream articles. Some could be described as WP:SPAs, with an interest in articles such as Race and crime, eugenics and dysgenics. Possibly some want readers of wikipedia to be able to see some form of unqualified statement on wikipedia that some races are genetically more intelligent than others; this seems to be what for example TechnoFaye has been writing. That is the problem that has beleaguered the article since Slrubenstein or I started watching it four or more years ago (in his case longer). Ludwigs2's continued presence is simply facilitating the editing of these SPAs. This nod to fringe science was exactly the problem with Ludwigs2's edits to altmed articles and part of the reason he is currently involved in a feud with User:BullRangifer, formerly User:Fyslee. It would appear that Ludwigs2 has some kind of agenda on wikipedia and lacks the neutrality of Wordsmith or Xavexgeom. Certainly Ludwigs2's pushing for banned user User:Jagz to continue editing Race and intelligence on wikipedia a while back was hardly a good sign. There is no sign that he has changed. Nor was it a good idea for someone with an interest in editing the article, and therefore probably having an idea what content he wanted removed or added to the article and ideas on overall balance, to then suddenly switch to mediator. His dealings with Fyslee show that he is a problematic editor. On a contentious article, that and his poor mainspace edit count disqualify him as a mediator. If mediation is driving editors away from an article, that is the time to stop it. There was already an error in trying to have Reubzz (talk · contribs) as mediator, when he had no experience on wikipedia at all (barely 2 weeks). Now we have a fourth round of the mediation process which seems to be driving mainstream established editors away from the article. That is a serious problem. If Slrubenstein and Aprock are uneasy about being among the sole editors to represent the mainstream academic viewpoint in the article - which by the way is the core purpose of wikipedia - something has gone very badly wrong here. Ludwigs2 and others seem to want this unfortunate state of affairs to continue. Mathsci (talk) 04:46, 29 March 2010 (UTC) Reubbz was and would have been fine. I will protect his name without exception. We all start somewhere, and if after 2 weeks he decides he wants to be a mediator -- a kind of peacemaker -- that is (was) a good thing. We learn quick. Picking up a big case is ambitious, and we would have all had his back. My first case was an Israeli/Palestinian case. My second case was a 9/11 conspiracy theory case. They didn't work out, but not because of my abilities. They didn't work out because the situations were plainly not suited to mediation. This may be one of the articles - and now that I'm hearing suspicions that supremacy is indeed one of the biases (another reason I left the case -- the ambiguity was too great, and my beliefs too strong), I really do think it would be hard to close this as successful. But Ludwigs2 has done a good job by the standards, far and above the standards folks are lowering him to. We're giving him and the case 2 more weeks. The success or failure of this case is not contingent upon him, since it's the parties to the disputes' job to actually put into place NPA, CIVIL, NPOV, etc. Not his or any other mediator. All he can do is suggest, after all. Xavexgoem (talk) 05:38, 29 March 2010 (UTC) You had far more editing experience before starting as a mediator. As far as I can tell from your editing history, your first mediation case was on Mucoid plaque in January 2008, not a controversial article in the same way as Race and intelligence. Seeing that two experienced mediators were unable to deal with R&I (I'd stopped participating), in retrospect this was clearly not an article for a mediator to cut their teeth on. There had also been a previous unsuccessful attempt at mediation on it. I would personally wait to see what Slrubenstein thinks. I have never seen an editor of an article become a mediator before and certainly not one with an editing history like that of Ludwigs2. Unfortunately I don't quite follow why a mediation process that has been abandoned by a set of long term editors and now mostly involves those promoting a minoritarian point of view can have any validity, but we will see. Mathsci (talk) 08:54, 29 March 2010 (UTC) This helps me understand the issue, at least, although I'm still not totally clear on what makes Ludwig problematic. I don't know if he has a PhD in dispute resolution, or if Wikipedia's mediation system generally operates on a purely professional level. It seems to me that it operates (like one might expect from volunteers) on a join-in-if-you-think-you-can-help basis. If the mediation is pushing away other editors that's a concern. My thought would nevertheless be, if one believes in mediation generally, that the mediation team should get a first crack at the problem. A side benefit is that this would clarify what outsiders on a board like this might need to look at if things nevertheless don't work out. Incidentally, the "ten arguments" material you presented here obviously does look awful. I just looked, though, and it seems to have been an anon IP that briefly got it into the article.[26] The account that re-added it has been blocked. I don't know if this was mentioned above, but at least that doesn't seem to have resulted from any part of the mediation, one hopes. Mackan79 (talk) 06:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC) If two experienced mediators have abandoned the process, along with a fair number of users initially signed up for mediation, and the remaining mediator is a former would-be editor to the article, there is a problem. I don't have very high hopes for what will happen to the article in the near future. That is probably why I stick to editing mainstream articles, even if they can be very hard work requiring a lot of thought and preparation before applying fingertips to keyboard (as at the moment). Mathsci (talk) 08:54, 29 March 2010 (UTC) Yes, the "ten arguments" section has been added several times since March 11. [27] [28], [29], [30]. The last editor (perhaps also from Belgium) was blocked on March 25 because of copyvio on the global bell curve. Mathsci (talk) 09:21, 29 March 2010 (UTC) Just a comment I would just like to note that I've been browsing the edit filter logs, as I often do, and noticed that someone tried to remove the "list of 10" from the article but was stopped from doing so by a bug in the edit filter. This particular filter would not have stopped most registered editors from deleting the text, but it did stop an IP. —Soap— 14:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Two week extension of mediation Xavexgoem's suggestion that the present mediation continue for a further two weeks seems like a fair compromise. After that I understand mediation will be ended and unmediated editing will recommence. Mathsci (talk) 10:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC) actually, that was my suggestion, and you have misrepresented it a bit. the agreement is that I would suggest closure in two weeks if there was no significant improvement in the article (or the debate, by extension). there are, as I see it, three options: two weeks pass and the situation has not improved - that would be grounds for closure two weeks pass and the situation has mostly resolved itself - that would also suggest closure two weeks pass, decent progress has been made, but the mediation participants think that some further discussion would be helpful. in that case, they have the right to leave the mediation open if there is a consensus there to do so. just so that we are clear on the issue. --Ludwigs2 19:19, 29 March 2010 (UTC) Dispute resolution may be in order for Mathsci and Ludwigs2. Mathsci has criticized Ludwigs2 for something Mathsci has done.[31] --Cryptofish (talk) 20:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC) Ah a diff from October 25 2008. After this edit, where and when do you think you might make your second edit to this encyclopedia? Mathsci (talk) 21:13, 29 March 2010 (UTC) I looked at the mediation talk pages to see what has gone on so far in mediation. On the basis of that I think it highly unlikely that any significant or reasonable modifications can be made to the article within the next two weeks, i.e. before April 14 2010. I could be wrong. After that I assume mediation will be closed by Xavexgoem. If even one editor (eg Slrubenstein, Aprock or Muntuwandi) disagrees with a proposed extension, I don't see how mediation could continue after that. One other thing I noticed, which surprised me, was the discussion during mediation of the article becoming "data-driven" (whatever that means). Usually when writing wikipedia articles, the principal sources are located, possibly making a selection of the best ones if there are too many, and then the article is written based on what is stated in those sources. I've never heard of wikipedians gathering or evaluating data when writing articles. Mathsci (talk) 21:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC) Mathsci, as a start, you may want to revert yourself.[32] --Cryptofish (talk) 21:19, 29 March 2010 (UTC) I spoke too soon. You might like to look at this. You look a bit like a sockpuppet account don't you? Mathsci (talk) 21:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC) This entire discussion seems to be primarily a collection of personal attacks from Mathsci against other users: me, Reubzz, Varoon Arya, (especially) Ludwigs2, and now this person who Mathsci is accusing of being a sockpuppet. This is happening in a thread that was posted about possible incivility from TechnoFaye, in which everything Mathsci has brought up over the past four days is clearly off-topic, and a violation of one of this board’s rules: “Please do not clutter this page with accusations or side-discussions within a discussion”. If this were happening on any other talk page where I was participating, I would be posting at AN/I about Mathsci hijacking a discussion with repeated personal attacks, but in this case AN/I is where it’s happening already. For at least the third time, could an administrator please look at this and do something about it? --Captain Occam (talk) 22:14, 29 March 2010 (UTC) Captain Occam, please calm down. Then perhaps you can explain who this new user Cryptofish is, who appeared just over an hour ago and has made just two edits here, Special:Contributions/Cryptofish but seems nevertheless to have complete familiarity with diffs, page histories and this noticeboard. Mathsci (talk) 22:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC) How should I know? I’ve never seen him before either. And I also don’t see why it should matter who he is, since either way it isn’t acceptable to publicly accuse another user of socking during a discussion about something unrelated. --Captain Occam (talk) 23:08, 29 March 2010 (UTC) I'm sorry but you're wrong there. Almost everything you've written in this section is an exaggerated misrepresentation. While I have been keeping discussions here, you have been trying to activate a wikifriend of mine User:Dbachmann against me on his talk page. User_talk:Dbachmann#Possible_abuse_of_AN.2FI Exactly as the newly arrived editor Cryptofish did above, you complained to Dieter that I had removed a message from my talk page. But surely you know that I can do that to any message on my talk page (except possibly a block message). I did some content editing today [33]. I don't think you've added any content in the last week. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 23:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC) How is any of this relevant? The point of mentioning the message you removed from your talk page is just to show that you were aware of the mediation case for Race and intelligence, and had no interest in participating in it or discussing it with anyone other than in this thread at AN/I. I really don’t care whether you bash me for my lack of activity here, or accuse me of exaggerating and misrepresenting things. The important thing is that when you make personal attacks against five different users in a single thread at AN/I, none of which have any relevance to the actual topic ng of the thread (which is about TechnoFaye), you’re the person who ends up looking bad as a result. --Captain Occam (talk) 23:38, 29 March 2010 (UTC) You're putting words into my mouth which I have never written. It's true that the current fourth stage of mediation does not seem successful at present. Even though I was on wikibreak while teaching in Cambridge, I did make this comment a day or two before a fourth mediator was chosen.[34] From your editing record, you appear to be a single purpose account. You are attacking me for no apparent reason, except that I have criticized the editing procedures of your favourite article in a public place. I also note that you have been blocked by MastCell for edit warring on the article during mediation. Good night, Mathsci (talk) 23:50, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

user:Zlykinskyja's conduct at AFD page

Unresolved

 – The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:40, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The overall problems on the Murder of Meredith Kercher article have been submitted for mediation here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2010-03-26/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher Zlykinskyja (talk) 13:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

This does not change the fact that this thread, originally, dealt with the way you behaved towards other editors, you disagreed with, and not with the content dispute... Salvio ( ^{Let's talk 'bout it!}) 16:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Please re-read the content of the thread to understand my responses and why I have filed for mediation here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2010-03-26/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher . Thank you. Zlykinskyja (talk) 17:09, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Misusing AFD page for personal attacks and unrelated personal "disputes" after several explanations and warnings. I think she has reached a limit that warrants a strong warning or even a short block if that is what it takes to stop the disruption. User is currently also discussed at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts# user:Zlykinskyja. Repeated violations of civility in edit summaries and talk pages (conserning Murder of Meredith Kercher but stale right now. The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 20:29, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I kindly tried to ask her to refrain from assuming bad faith, here, but she first shifted the topic here and, then, one minute later, she erased all, as can be seen here. Salvio giuliano (talk) 20:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree that Zlykinskyja seems to be assuming bad faith in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Delayed grief and is making a lot of accusations against Magnificent Clean-keeper for things like alleged "wikihounding". I raised concerns about Zlykinskyja's previous personal attacks on me in the Wikiquette discussion mentioned above. I am concerned that, in response, she seemed extremely reluctant to take responsibility for her actions and instead suggested that the remedy for the problem would be some sort of mediation. She received some good advice from independent editors, there, but does not seem to be taking note of it. However, I'm not an independent editor: I have disagreed with a lot of her edits in the Murder of Meredith Kercher article and, as mentioned, have been on the receiving end of a lot her personal attacks. Bluewave (talk) 22:13, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

This latest attack against me by The Magnificent Clean-Keeper comes after a few days ago when he and Salvio Giuliano agreed that they would start using "vinegar" against me after I failed to respond to their "honey". What this "honey" has actually been involves a long pattern of harassment and hostility against me by The Magnificent Clean-Keeper. He has recently engaged in trying to instigate incidents by WikiHounding me --following me to other articles. This is against Wikipedia policy. He has also made the threat to "get rough" with me. He used profanity against me, although he would know that most women would be offended by the "F" word. He refers to my comments as "B.S." or rants. Most annoyingly, he has engaged in a pattern of repeatedly deleting my work, over and over in a most unreasonable manner, trying to instigate an edit war. I feel that he should be sanctioned for harassing me and WikiHounding me. Under WikiHounding policies, it is considered harassment to follow someone to another article to interfere with another editor's enjoyment of editing. That he has certainly done to me on the Linda Carty article, and now in another manner on the new Delayed Grief article. I feel that he is trying to instigate and provoke disputes, intimidate me and bully me from participating in writing on this website. He has the support of some biased allies, including Bluewave and Salvio Giuliano, who support him in his efforts to cause difficulty for me in having my edits included on the Murder of Meredith Kercher article. I did report this on ANI several days ago, but the report was ignored. I hope that ANI will provide me with some assistance so that I can participate in Wikipedia without feeling intimidated by him and the allies who support such wrongful conduct. I have said that this started as a content dispute on the Murder of Meredith Kercher article, but he is now trying to make it personal and extending things beyond that one article. He has made it clear for a while now that his intention is to get me banned or blocked as a form of intimidation in connection with the editing disputes on the Murder of Meredith Kercher article. Zlykinskyja (talk) 22:36, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

And again, like she did at Wikiquette, she keeps on accusing me and other editors w/o any diff's to proof. What she is basically doing is making accusations to try to turn the sword against me (while doing quite the opposite at the Murder of Meredith Kercher's article). Although the latter seems somehow funny, It is not to me. I was hoping for some minor difference to her usual response but I guess I expected to much as she just replied with the same old unfounded accusations like she has it still saved in her mouse. I would like to remind everybody, that this thread that I started is about Zlykinskyja's behavior problems, not mine, and I told her on several occasions that if she has a complain against me she can file one at several available boards, including here at ANI but instead, her preference still lays in engaging in unfounded complains and incivility on her talk page (where she constantly deletes and changes headings although only the ones that doesn't suit her well) and elsewhere.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I did raise this issue at ANI a few days ago, as a comment in a complaint someone else filed against The Magnificent Clean-Keeper, but my issues apparently were overlooked. I am not someone who goes around filing complaints about people and trying to intimidate people, as he does. I have never filed an official complaint against anyone. But looking at the official ANI records, his name comes up as someone who seems to go after people a lot. Well, that isn't my style. I tried to raise the issue as a comment on ANI, but the information was overlooked, and then things with him only got worse. But I do think his conduct which is provoking my distress should be considered. If you look at the article deletion page he refers to, I was trying to raise the same issues I tried to raise previously on the ANI in the complaint that was promptly closed. His behavior is a problem, a BIG problem for me. Zlykinskyja (talk) 23:25, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Let me help you out. This was the "incident" that was closed rather quickly and for good reasons. If you have a complain, file it or leave it.

This was the ONLY incident I ever filed at here (and it was about you under your old user name).

I'm not aware of ANI other report I filed regarding you or any one else. Any diff's to proof me wrong? Guess not as always. So proof it or loose it.

And stop trying to make this thread about me and respond to your conduct which is in question here.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:47, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

• BTW. About the ANI thread you mentoned and commented on: If you jump on a wagon make sure it goes in your direction.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:55, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Then why does your name come up 28 times in the ANI records when I put your name in? You seem to have been in a lot of these types of disputes, even if someone else filed the complaint. Your name must be popping up a big number of times in the official records for a reason. Zlykinskyja (talk) 00:06, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Put an admin's name in the search box and you'll get plenty of hits too. Can you please start making sense and respond to the thread or just stop commenting like this and waste editors time as their time is at least as valuable as yours (and they don't have a SPA-account [single-purpose account] like you) but don't complain about it as you constantly do?The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:24, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

[ He moved my Comment out of time sequence] So that is what you meant when you said you were going back to the "old type of editor that no one would want to see", and that you intend to "get rough" with me? You intend to very agressively go after me, swear at me, WikiHound me, post on my Talk page over and over even though I pleaded with you to leave me alone, over and over I asked you to please leave me alone. But you just won't do that. It is not acceptable conduct. As I told you, I am taking care of an extremely ill family member. I just can't put up with your horrible conduct towards me while I am under a lot of stress and have to put the care of a terminally ill person first and foremost. But you just continue on and on stalking me. I have asked you over and over and over and over to please leave me alone. Zlykinskyja (talk) 00:21, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

• I'll not respond further to your accusations. Talk to my hand.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I am confused. Are you now saying that you are an administrator on Wikipedia? Zlykinskyja (talk) 00:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Here is a link to a Talk page discussion in which he tried to provoke a distressed response from me by: 1) following me to a new article in which he had never been involved; 2) deleting a large number of my edits without justification; 3) then deleting more of my work without justification; 4) posting helpful hints on my Talk page without acknowledging that he had just deleted most of my work; 5) thereby prompting my distressed response to his continuing pattern of deleting my work, while he deceptively looks like he is just trying to post helpful suggestions on my Talk page; 6) then linking the incident that he intentionally schemed and provoked to a discussion page (about my supposed lack of civilty towards him) on the Wikette page, and falsely using the incident to claim continuing uncivility by me. This is just one example of the nonsense I have to put up with, and why it is unreasonable to demand that I continue to assume "good faith" when dealing with him. [35] Zlykinskyja (talk) 01:02, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Further comment (having had time to think carefully about why I'm contributing to this). My perception (just one person's point of view, of course) is as follows. Zlykinskyja's main interest in Wikipedia has been the Murder of Meredith Kercher and it is clear that she has passionate views about the subject. I think other editors actually respect this and have shown Z quite a lot of tolerance, though she probably wouldn't believe me. The article itself is quite controversial and Z herself has a history of making controversial and tendentious edits. A good example would be a recent case where there was some discussion, and an apparent consensus on the talk page, about a rewrite of a section of the article.[36] Although, Z did not contribute to the debate, she set about making some 20 edits to the text as soon as it was in place in the article. When her edits were reverted, she immediately started making personal attacks on the editors concerned, including labelling me as an "anti-Knox" editor.[37] So this is a good example of unwillingness to participate in creating a consensus, making controversial edits and then making personal attacks on people who disagree with Z. When I suggested that she raise her concerns on the talk page, so that they can be discussed, she responded by saying "take the material that I tried to include as my comment": in other words she tends to push the debate out of the talk page and into article space, where it turns into an edit war.[38] Magnificent Clean-keeper raised the issue of Z's conduct at the Wikiquette noticeboard. I thought that this might lead to some advice from an uninvolved editor and I raised my concerns there too. It did indeed lead to some good advice but there was a great reluctance by Z to accept that she is responsible for incivility that others find quite unpleasant. From Z's contributions to the AFD and recent edits to the Kercher article, I don't think she has taken on board the guidance that has been given. Hence, I think there is the need for someone who has the power of sanctions to examine the case. Bluewave (talk) 12:50, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Bluewave's comment discusses an incident which reflects the ongoing problems over the content of the Murder of Meredith Kercher article. There has indeed been a big problem on the article in terms of having both sides of the story included, BLP respected, and NPOV achieved. This is why I had suggested mediation, but it seems that there has recently been an attempt to make things "personal" so that the conflict now looks like interpersonal disputes, when the underlying dispute has been over the content of the article. (I do not think that is the case with The Magnificent Clean-Keeper any longer though. I think he has an anger towards me that has become personal and that his intention now is to give me a very hard time and ultimately to get me banned or blocked.) In terms of the content dispute, the problem is that most of the editors edit in a consistent pattern that can be described as the "pro-prosecution/anti-Knox/pro-guilt" side of the story. In terms of the "other" side of the story, which can be described as "pro-Knox/anti-prosecution/pro-innocence" side, it is primarily just me. Another poster named Wikid77 sometimes edits on that side as well, but sometimes edits on the other side too. He does not seem to contribute on a regular basis any longer due to the disputes. Because it is often just me up against Bluewave, Salvio Giuliano, The Magnificent Clean-Keeper and a few others on the other side of the case, I have been given a very difficult time and my work is often deleted or challenged and then deleted. But BOTH sides of the story need to be included in order for NPOV to be achieved and BLP to be respected. The defendants in the murder case are still "presumed innocent" until the judicial process is completed and their guilt or innocence finally determined, which will take a few years. In the meantime, both BLP and NPOV require that BOTH sides of the story be included--which means that information both as to their possible guilt and as to their possible innocence should be included. But most of the editors will allow only information tending to show their guilt to be included. So we have a struggle as to including both sides of the story, achieving NPOV and complying with BLP. But for Bluewave or any other editor to say that this dispute is all my fault is not truthful or sincere, since my struggles are to try to include the information which they do not want in the article--which shows the "other" side of the story. Without my lonely struggles to include the "other' side of the story, this article would read like Amanda Knox was a terrible person who sexually assaulted, stabbed, strangled, beat, stabbed and killed her roomate, when none of this has been finally determined. Knox stands innocent until proven guilty and she faces another trial in the Fall in which she could be acquitted. Large numbers of people in the U.S., including public officials and public figures, believe that she has been unjustly accused and never harmed her roommate. Until her guilt or innocence is finally determined, BOTH sides of the story, including the possibility of her innocence should be allowed in the article. It would be helpful if an administrator could help emphasize that NPOV and BLP require that these editors allow BOTH sides of the story in the article, and that they cannot reach a "consensus" to do otherwise. Thank you. Zlykinskyja (talk) 16:50, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

No, this is not about the content of the article; it's about the way you behave towards all those who don't agree with you; that can be seen on the AFD page, but I can provide tons of diffs if needed. Please, try not to shift the topic, here. Salvio giuliano (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment from User:Wikid77 - I have been very busy on other articles (and fixing complex calculations in Template:Convert), but I noticed that User:Zlykinskyja has been warning people of WikiHounding activities. I did not realize, until today, that WP:Wikihounding (formerly called "wikistalking" until 27-Oct-2008) is part of WP:Harrassment and is a formal behavior problem that can quickly result in users being blocked. User:Zlykinskyja has been a part-time user, someone working on relatively few articles, and now working to improve articles on legal topics, such as the convicted Linda Carty. I think the claims of wikihounding are correct, and User:Zlykinskyja is in need of protection, at this point, at least in warning other users to not follow along, not hound, and not revert corrections to the next article being edited. Some users seem to have crossed the line, such as User:The Magnificent Clean-keeper, by twice reverting major improvements/corrections to another hounded article ("Linda Carty"), perhaps at the suggestion of another user to target that article, as a form of collusion in hounding. I'm not sure that any of them knew about policy WP:Wikihounding, but User:Zlykinskyja certainly asked them to stop, multiple times, both on article talk-pages and on their user-talk pages. They can't pretend they haven't been warned. I realize evidence is needed to support my views, so I suggest the history of article "Linda Carty" (the British/American woman on death row in Texas). I finally took time to review the many improved edits made by User:Zlykinskyja, who corrected errors in that WP:BLP article (ranks #2 in Google, with 46,000 hits about Linda Carty), and then added sources, and then expanded the text. However, User:The Magnificent Clean-keeper decided to revert most of the improvements to article "Linda Carty", 2 times, and restored glaring errors, such as Linda Carty charged with "Capital Punishment" which, of course, is a punishment, not a criminal charge. Those erroneous reverts to "Linda Carty" were shocking:

• 1st revert re-adding errors (18:14, 13 March 2010): diff@revision 349650340
• 2nd revert re-adding errors (19:47, 13 March 2010): diff@revision 349666236

I was shocked about anyone wanting to de-correct a WP:BLP article, anyone wanting to re-introduce errors 2x, when User:Zlykinskyja had improved the notable article about this dual-citizen (of interest to both British & American readers) and had described her fate at Mountain View Unit (women's death row), on that very real hillside midway between Houston and Dallas, Texas. Why would someone risk scrambling and hacking such an article, twice, on Wikipedia? Articles about British-American citizens on death row should not be hacked and have errors re-added. So, if perhaps User:Zlykinskyja seems a little upset, please understand the prior massive rescue to a high-profile article on Wikipedia and having to correct problems 3 times, in total, to make Wikipedia seem a better source about such an important legal issue: the execution of a British citizen when capital punishment has been banned in the UK. I advise: tell other users to stop the wikihounding, stop reverting improvements to high-profile articles, and stop submitting frivolous ANI reports about User:Zlykinskyja. The future contributions of User:Zlykinskyja are incalculable to Wikipedia, and I've worked on many thousands of articles, so I think I know whereof I speak. Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:02, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Wikid77. I do feel that I can contribute a lot to Wikipedia in the long run, if only those pushing their own obvious agendas on the Murder of Meredith Kercher article--to present Amanda Knox as guilty of a violent sexual assault and murder--would stop trying to block my participation with these unfair and unethical tactics. These tactics of reporting me on trumped up charges, WikiHounding, intentional provocations, making threats, repeatedly deleting my work over and over and over, are really all aimed at one thing---preventing me from adding the "other side of the story" to the Kercher murder article. The aggressiveness that has been used to try to block and intimidate me from including the "other side of the story" has indeed been shameful. And it needs to come to a stop. Amanda Knox, a young student from Seattle, Washington, is a real person, a living person who is entitled to the protections afforded by the BLP policy on Wikipedia. Yet, there are a few editors who have gone to great lengths to block me from trying to provide some control on the article in terms of defamation. I have had to remove, modify or correct a great deal of information in the article that has been false and defamatory towards her and Raffaele Sollecito and in violation of BLP policy. I have tried to add information that tends to show that she is innocent until proven guilty in a final judicial proceeding, and that no final determination of guilt has yet been made. For this effort, a huge number of hours of my time has been taken up trying to stop these same editors from removing my corrections and edits. Yet, my editing has been in compliance with BLP policy, while some other editors are working against BLP policy. Now they have gone to the next step of aggression by trying these personal attacks to get me blocked or banned. It is not a coincidence that the edits of The Magnificent Clean-Keeper, Salvio Giuliano, and Bluewave and a few others of their group have been virtually ALL tending to show Amanda Knox in as negative and GUILTY a light as possible, and they object to most all my edits adopting a more tolerant view of her---and now they are trying to say these disputes occur because of my "conduct." No, the overriding "conduct" in this situation is that a clique of editors is trying many tactics to block me from participating, so that they can write up Amanda Knox in the article to look as guilty as possible, and that article will be on display for the world to read as she goes for her second trial this Fall. This whole thing, in my opinion, is morally and ethically wrong, and could end up violating the rights of Amanda Knox to be free of defamation and adverse unfounded negative pre-trial publicity, and violates many Wikipedia policies including NPOV and BLP. There should be no such thing as a criminal Trial by Wikipedia. Amanda Knox remains innocent until her judicial proceedings are concluded and her guilt or innocence is finally determined. I respectfully request that these editors be admonished to cease trying to block my participation on the Murder of Meredith Kercher article, and from WikiHounding me to any other article as further intimidation against my participation. Thank you. Zlykinskyja (talk) 00:36, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Trying to bring this discussion back to the subject in hand...namely Zlykinskyja's conduct...I think some of her posts above illustrate very well the points that I was trying to make earlier.

• It appears that Z thinks she is on a mission to insert a particular point of view into the Meredith Kercher article: she says, for example, In terms [of editing] ... the ... "pro-Knox/anti-prosecution/pro-innocence" side, it is primarily just me.
• She assumes bad faith on the part of most other editors: most of the editors edit in a consistent pattern that can be described as the "pro-prosecution/anti-Knox/pro-guilt" side of the story.
• Whenever incivility is mentioned, she cites content disputes as the cause. This suggests that, based on her belief in the bad faith of other editors, she thinks she is justified in being uncivil.
• She assumes consensus will go against her and doesn't accept the need to engage in the consensus process [policies] require that these editors allow BOTH sides of the story in the article, and that they cannot reach a "consensus" to do otherwise.

All these things are driving other editors to despair. Bluewave (talk) 10:34, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not 100% educated on this discussion, but Zlykinskyja, as far as your arguments, I think you might want to read WP:TLDR. Erpert (let's talk about it) 11:46, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Summary: this editor has been assuming bad faith on the part of other users ever since she started editing the MoMK article — a few examples out of many here she immediately assumes censorship, after her edit was reverted; "Now this is really disgusting. Someone, likely FormerIP, has gone and had this article locked so that only certain people can edit the article. That is truly disgusting. The locking of this article was NOT due to any vandalism. It was due to an attempt to block alternative viewpoints. This is the most extreme form of censorship."; claims of defamation; "The bullying and rudeness going on with this article has to stop."; claims of "Conspiring to Obstruct another Editor"; "The rules for this article are more: 1)if it makes Knox look good, it must be deleted; 2)if it makes Knox look bad, it stays."; "But wouldn't something like that be best to do all off-line so the Knox-haters can't trash it?"; "The anti-Knox editors should not be deleting, censoring and blocking contributions by pro-defense editors"; "Efforts by Anti-Knox Editors to Restrict Participation By Pro-defense Editors"; "They have the "consensus" and it does not include US. "They have the "consensus" and it does not include US."; "I guess rather than mediation, Magnificent Clean-Keeper would rather fight. It is all such a waste of time."; do I have to continue? BTW, sorry, if I have been verbose, here ;) — was blocked for sockpuppeting and legally threatened the admin who had blocked her [39], after wikilawyering. She thinks that all those who don't agree with her are wrong, trying to censor her or wikihounding her. The episode of alleged wikihounding took place a week or so ago, but she was lamenting our censorship way before then; she is apparently confusing the correct succession of events.

Here she clarifies her "agenda". Salvio giuliano (talk) 14:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I see that in response to my sincere statement on the extended content dispute over the Murder of Meredith Kercher article, the same editors who have been part of the improper effort to obstruct my efforts to participate to present the "other side of the story" in the article are now throwing the kitchen sink at me. This is part of their continuing effort to divert attention from the major problem with the article--their own efforts to allow only one side of the story in violation of the fundamental policies of NPOV and BLP. It will take me a while to do the proper research to respond to these additional accusations: I am still trying to learn how to do diffs, but will try to collect some to provide further information. I intend to return to provide a response as soon as I can reasonably do so, given illness in the family and other real world obligations. Thank you for your patience. I will just reply briefly now that there is nothing that I have ever said or done that excuses the WikiHounding that has occurred. WikiHounding is a form of harassment under Wikipedia policy, and trying to cast the person who was subjected to it as the wrongdoer can never be justified. It is not improper to object to WikiHounding, it is the effort to engage in WikiHounding that is wrongful. Zlykinskyja (talk) 15:28, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

So, now I am one of the baddies? It's not what you wrote three days ago "Salvio has not harassed me by repeatedly deleting my work on the Kercher article." Anyway, for me, this stops here. I will try to avoid you in the future and all will be well, hopefully. Salvio giuliano (talk) 17:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry. She said that I'm the leader of the so called anti Knox crowd so I'm the vampire who bit every one and therefore I must be held responsible for everything ;) The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 22:59, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I've reinstated this discussion which had been archived (I hope I've done it right). The issue has not been resolved and I think the recent lack of activity was because Zlykinskyja asked for additional time to respond to the allegations. Bluewave (talk) 09:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I left a message on Zlykinskyja's talk page suggesting that she gives us an update on her response, as she asked for more time. I noted that she had made over 50 edits to Wikipedia since her last one here (and has made a lot more since then) and I hoped that this meant she had also had some time to work on her response. However, she didn't respond or reply to my message. I'm reluctant to enquire further, because it will probably be interpreted as wikihounding. Can someone independent please check what's going on? Otherwise this thread will keep disappearing into the archives. Thanks. Bluewave (talk) 08:32, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Bluewave: I believe you are well aware that I have been tied up as of late--first there have been continuing efforts by The Magnificent Clean-keeper to block me from going forward with my new proposed article on Delayed Grief, despite my complaints here that that effort is connected with WikiHounding in retaliation for the content dispute on the Murder of Meredith Kercher article. Second, your group or a member of your group has filed a new complaint against me at the NPOV Notice Board on the Murder of Meredith Kercher article. That new complaint is at this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Murder_of_Merdith_Kercher

I think that the new complaint at the NPOV Notice Board demonstrates what I have been saying all along--that there is huge underlying content dispute on the Murder of Meredith Kercher article which is the fundamental problem that needs to be resolved. I have noticed that on the NPOV Notice Board they say that large NPOV issues within an article should go to Mediation or a Request for Comment. I totally agree, and am now going forward with my own filing seeking help along those formal lines today on the basis that the participants on the Murder of Meredith Kercher article need formal guidance on how to comply with NPOV and BLP in such a complex and contentious story involving major international controversy. Zlykinskyja (talk) 15:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

For anyone who has read this far down the thread, without losing the will to live: as a matter of fact I do have a group, but it's the kind that plays music and is not notable enough to feature here. I don't have "a group" on Wikipedia and I resent the allegation that I do. There is indeed a posting on the NPOV Notice Board relating to some further controversial editing that Zlykinskyja did on the Murder of Meredith Kercher article, yesterday. However, I disagree that someone has "filed a new complaint against [Zlykinskyja]". It looks to me like they have filed a request for help with the content and it is only Zlykinskyja who is trying to make it personal. Bluewave (talk) 15:58, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Bluewave, please stop assuming bad faith on my part. I have tried very hard to try to focus on the content dispute despite the many personal attacks against me on this thread and in other places, which is what Wikipedia policy emphasizes. According to Wikipedia policy, the focus should be on the content, not on the editors. I could have responded here with many examples of instances of how I have been treated very badly by the members of the group of editors involved in the Murder of Meredith Kercher article who post with an opposing point of view to my view concerning the murder. I chose instead to comply with Wikipedia policy of putting primary focus on the content and trying to avoid the focus on the personal. That is what I will continue to focus on as I bring the Murder of Meredith Kercher article forward today for formal Dispute Resolution. Zlykinskyja (talk) 16:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

For anyone who has read this far down the thread, without losing the will to live ROTFL. And, by the way, the request filed to get help sorting the POV issue out was not and is not against you personally. And please stop trying to shift the topic, here: it has nothing to do with any content disputes, but with the way you behave towards other editors. I really do hope some admin steps in and takes it over from here... You can call me Salvio (talk) 19:38, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Salvio: I could make an issue here of the very upsetting way that you behave towards me, but I have not done that. I have tried to focus on the main issue, which is constructing a well written article about a still unsolved murder mystery that complies with BLP and NPOV, despite all the controversy in three countries surrounding the Amanda Knox trial and case. To say that the controversy in the article is all due to me is disingenuous to say the least. The finger could be pointed at you and others as well. But the main issue, the content dispute, is well demonstrated by the NPOV dispute now underway at this thread http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Murder_of_Merdith_Kercher It is the complex issue of how to handle the content in an article about a murder mystery that is not yet solved that needs to be addressed, and that I am working on now and expect to have a Mediation request filed by today. You can continue to do just what the Wikipedia policy says not to do---make the dispute about the editor--but the real unresolved issues about BLP and NPOV and the content will still impose turmoil in the article, and very much need to be resolved. Zlykinskyja (talk) 21:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• Do you still intent to back up your accusations (the ones you made here at least) as you promised and also respond to your own behavior as editor as this threat is actually about you?The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 21:06, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

(No admin comment yet: please do not archive.) Bluewave (talk) 17:20, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Anyone interested in the ongoing dispute over NPOV and BLP in the Murder of Meredith Kercher article might want to watch a documentary on this murder case which will be on T.V. tonight, Sunday, March 28 on The Learning Channel, at 8 pm and 11 pm Eastern Time, 7 pm and 10 pm Central Time. The name of the documentary is "The Trials of Amanda Knox." I think the documentary will show that it is far from a settled "fact" that Amanda Knox sexually assaulted, strangled, beat, cut the throat, and murdered her roommate Meredith Kercher, and that this Wikipedia article needs to include more than just the "guilty" POV in order to achieve NPOV and comply with BLP policies. Thank you. Zlykinskyja (talk) 22:05, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

As a follow up to this discussion and tonight's T.V. documentary, I would like to note that the primary focus of the documentary supported the essence of what I have been trying to say here about the content of the article. According to the documentary: "Knox's image itself became a central battleground" of the trial in Italy. She was called "Foxy-Knoxy, whose reputation threatened to overwhelm the case." "The question of which Amanda is the real one would become central to winning in the court of public opinion and in the court of law." "They created a new character called Foxy-Knoxy and convicted her." "There was a trial by media, so that the public could make up its own mind", prior to the trial. "Leaked information was a major part of the trial by media." According to Judge Heavey of Washington, "She was demonized in the media....There were a large number of leaks (by the prosecution) and the leaks were false." The demonization of Amanda Knox continues even now all over the Internet and in newspapers outside the U.S.. Such demonization should not be going on in Wikipedia, but that is precisely what is happening. There are attempts to block the other side of the story--the side claiming she is innocent. Information favorable to her is repeatedly deleted or obstructed. What is going on is simply wrong. Amanda Knox is entitled to her good name if she is innocent of this crime, and her guilt or innocence has not yet been finally determined. Until she is finally determined to be guilty or innocent, these efforts on Wikipedia to make her look as guilty as possible, or to block information that is favorable to her, are profoundly unfair, and not in compliance with NPOV and BLP policy. "Trial by Wikipedia" is just as wrong as "trial by tabloid" or "trial by media." Accordingly, the focus in this article needs to be on allowing BOTH sides of the story. Thank you. Zlykinskyja (talk) 03:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I would like to request that an administrator kindly close and archive this thread. I have submitted a request for informal Mediation, which is where this dispute belongs for ongoing supervision and dispute resolution. Thank you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2010-03-26/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher Thank you. Zlykinskyja (talk) 04:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Er...is it usual for the person whose conduct is being examined to announce that the thread can be closed? Bluewave (talk) 09:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

To be more specific, is Zlykinskyja saying that now she has requested formal mediation:

• She will no longer be supporting "spinoff articles" from the Murder of Meredith Kercher, such as the one on Delayed grief discussed on her talk page, here[40].
• If there is an AfD discussion about such an article, she won't try and turn it into unsupported accusations of "wikihounding"[41]
• She will stop making personal attacks on me, such as these:[42],[43], [44], [45], [46],[47][48],[49]
• That when a consensus has been achieved on the talk page, such as this thread[50] she won't immediately start making changes against consensus, such as this[51] and the 20 edits that immediately follow it in the edit history.
• That she will no longer make the sort of accusations that she has in this thread (see above), about me supposedly having some sort of group with an "anti-Knox" agenda.

If that is what she is saying, perhaps she has a case for asking for this thread to be closed. Bluewave (talk) 10:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

(No admin comment yet. Please do not auto archive.) Bluewave (talk) 07:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I wish to request that an administrator close this endless thread. This thread has been going on for ten days now. The dispute here has gone nowhere and will not resolve anything because the proper place for a dispute like this growing out of BLP and NPOV issues is in mediation. Mediation is clearly the proper format for this discussion. I have submitted a request for mediation here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2010-03-26/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher and that is where the discussion should take place going forward. Please close this thread so that the time, energy and effort can be spent in a constructive manner focused on the Murder of Meredith Kercher article, rather than in a destructive manner consisting mostly of intimidation against a minority editor. Thank you. Zlykinskyja (talk) 14:10, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

• Falsely claims my edit to be vandalism and received a notice from user:EdJohnston.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 18:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

So? You have attacked my edits as being vandalism, but more importantly you have reverted, and reverted, and reverted, and reverted, and deleted, and deleted my work over and over. THAT is part of the issue, which needs to be addressed in Mediation, as I have filed for. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2010-03-26/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher Zlykinskyja (talk) 22:56, 30 March 2010 (UTC) Administrator: PLEASE close this ten day old thread. Thank you,Zlykinskyja (talk) 22:56, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Quote:"You have attacked my edits as being vandalism,..."

More false accusations that you don't back up, as usual and so I take it as a plain lie since I can't even imagine that I did this.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:10, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Request for community input on User:GoRight

On February 7th, I made a conditional proposal[52] for GoRight's unblock after a lengthy WP:RFU request. He had previously been blocked by 2/0 for multiple breaches of policy which culminated in a de facto community ban.[53] I took responsibility for acting as an uninvolved third party to monitor GoRight's edits and provide guidance where necessary.

Presently, I'm less than happy with GoRight's progress in overcoming the behaviors which led to his indefinite block. Specifically, I'm seeing incidence of disruption,[54] harassment,[55][56][57][58] wikilawyering,[59] and failure to assume good faith.[60][61]

At this point, I would like to bring the issue for community review and input. Whenever I have blocked or unblocked in the past, my criteria has always come down to a certain formula: Does this editor's positive contributions outweigh his negative ones? I believe that everyone deserves second chances, and that's exactly why I offered to unblock GoRight after his RFU. However, at this point I'm having a very hard time justifying his continued presence. His helpful edits since the time of his unblock do not outweigh the additional time and effort that his less than helpful edits have posed on other editors. I would much rather see a change of editing patterns than another community ban, but at this time I feel that greater input is needed as that that dysfunctional editing pattern seems to be escalating rather than improving. Trusilver 01:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure what I am expected to say here. I believe that all of my edits are defensible in that there is a story behind them but if the community agrees with Trusilver's assessment of them then the best course of action is to block or ban me. I will respond to direct questions otherwise this is all I really have to say. I appreciate Trusilver's assistance in the past and I accept that he is acting in the best interest of the community. --GoRight (talk) 01:22, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

History shows a recurrent pattern: (1) GoRight gets blocked; (2) GoRight promises to do better and gets unblocked; (3) GoRight behaves quite well for a while; (4) GoRight gradually lapses back to his former provocations, bad-faith assumptions, etc; (5) eventually GoRight crosses the line; return to (1). We are now in phase (4). Whether GoRight continues to steps (5)->(1) is up to him, though my understanding is that the terms of his unblock allow others to short-circuit the loop. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

The overwhelming majority of GoRight's edits are in talk and project space - this month alone disrupting existing disputes and filing frivolous ones, ignoring arbitrators, encouraging problematic editors, spraying talk pages with distracting requests, making thinly veiled threats, proposing sanctions against other editors, telling people to mind their own business while refusing to do so himself, ridiculing and annoying people, atrocious wikilawyering, etc. Those that aren't tend to be minor reverts of vandalism (and warnings for same). Indeed I've just scanned his contributions all the way back to the start of the year (over 1,500 edits) and was unable to find even a single substantive edit in main space.

While I would support restoring the community ban, I would equally support an MYOB sanction as suggested by TenOfAllTrades, likely modeled after Abd's editing restriction. This would be his third and final opportunity to prove himself by taking the Swiss Family Robinson option and finding somewhere quiet to edit in main space. -- samj _in^out 02:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• I just kind of stumbled across this discussion and checked a few things and want to make a statement. The pattern that Short Brigade points out is fact and in my estimation will probably continue. but I like the suggestion of Samj, and I would make sure GoRight understands this is his LAST option. I suggest the the Swiss Family Robinson option and finding somewhere quiet to edit in main space. Just an outsiders thought. Mlpearc MESSAGE 02:44, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
• Agree with comments from Mlpearc. There's a lot of work that could use the help of editors like GoRight. Would GoRight be interested in working on non-admin maintenance tasks? What about creating requested articles or helping cleanup articles? Viriditas (talk) 03:22, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

  This is a possibility for sure. Do you have some pointers to the types of things you mean by "non-admin maintenance tasks"? Creating requested articles may also be an option, but where does one go to find such requests? --GoRight (talk) 03:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

  Wikipedia:Requested articles exists, but perhaps a more important task that needs doing would be [62]. If you worked on those articles (I probably should be taking my own advice), I am sure that the community would be very grateful. NW (Talk) 04:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

There is tons of copy editing to do at Guild of Copy Editors; if you have good English skillz this is a place where wikignomes can thrive. Any help would be appreciated. Diannaa ^TALK 04:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Something also that I've been doing a little of, and not even scratching the surface, is checking school-related articles. These have a much higher than usual tendency for vandalism, and that vandalism very often gets by the recent change patrollers. Trusilver 06:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

You can help source Category:Unreferenced_BLPs, clean spam and cruft from Category:Wikipedia external links cleanup. Hell, there is a lot of stuff at Category:Wikipedia_maintenance. Another option is commenting at deletion discussions, you can pick the one you like more: WP:AFD, WP:MFD, WP:TFD, WP:CFD, WP:RFD, WP:IFD or WP:DRV. Or just visit articles at random until you find one that a) you like the subject and b) it's underdeveloped; you can then expand it at will. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:44, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support (with equal preference) site ban or SamJ's proposal to impose a similar Abd restriction on GoRight. Only a few hours before commenting here, GoRight demonstrated that he already knew what a wikignome is and was tendentiously arguing that his contributions have been improving the project when by contrast, many incidents and existing sanctions suggest otherwise. If this was an editor who genuinely doesn't know what wikignome is, I'd be piling on the advice/guidance above, without any support for an involuntary restriction. But the very meaning of "final warning" or "unblock conditions" appears to be becoming meaningless. I cannot ignore what Short Brigade Harvester Boris has described, or the diffs in SamJ's comment, or the fact that this situation is not improving with mere voluntary measures and advice. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:31, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• Proposal for GoRight to consider The main problem seems to be that you have a very strong urge to get involved in subjects on which you have a very strong opinion (e.g. climate change) which you feel isn't covered neutrally on Wikipedia. But you have to understand that the way things are covered is almost always consistent with community consensus, and changing that is not an option. A better way to do something with your ideas in these matters is to write up an essay in general terms in which you explain what in your opinion is not going well on Wikipedia and then discuss that essay. Such activities are not disruptive. Count Iblis (talk) 15:26, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
• Agree on Essay with Count Iblis ... working on essays is a productive path for GoRight to adopt. I proposed in the past that GoRight submit an essay to 2over0 as an unblock condition with demonstrated content production. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 17:55, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I have been intentionally mostly avoiding GoRight's edits after they were unblocked - why give myself the headache when the wonder of the wiki model is that we all provide checks on each other? The diffs above (and a little digging to be sure that the context is clear) indicate that they have not taken to heart the lengthy unblock discussions, past sanctions and formal and informal warnings, and advice from numerous editors. I am glad that other editors were willing to undertake this experiment, as I think GoRight genuinely cares about this project; I maintain that even editors with few edits to the mainspace can be very productive in generating quality articles. In the absence of a dramatic improvement in their approach to editing, however, I support a new indefinite block. Mandating that they go edit areas where they have not experienced conflict (viz. completely new areas of the project) could be a solution, but please please word the sanction extraordinarily carefully and clearly. - 2/0 (cont.) 19:31, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I asked, indeed urged, GoRight to avoid involvement in climate change articles during the early unblock period, but he has devoted most of his efforts to that field. Had I known that GoRight would also want to involve himself in the Abd fuss, I would also have counseled against that.

But GoRight is so clearly an intelligent and often insightful contributor that I cannot help but think that his skills would be wasted on wikignome work. He has some King Charles' heads, and he needs help with them. Some kind of behavioral ban would work well here, I'm sure.

2over0's original framework incorporated the following suggested limitations [63]

1. Some form of civility parole, as I view this as the main issue - antagonizing other editors is just not on, even in a toxic editing atmosphere. As I mention above, I do not think that these sorts of provisions have a stellar track record, so the wording here will need to be very clear to avoid frivolous reports of violation while still having teeth that an unfamiliar admin would feel comfortable invoking. I am not at all convinced that you understand my reasoning behind each of the diffs above, but if you are willing to give it a go there is some chance that this condition could be productive.
2. Topic ban from climate change related articles for six months. This is not the maximum allowed under the community probation, but rather the minimum I see as likely to be useful to the project. I am sensitive to the concerns of systematic bias you raise in your most recent email, but this does not extend to a tolerance for disruption.
3. Some form of ban from all disputes and noticeboard threads in which you are not a named party or otherwise clearly and directly involved, with the possible the exceptions of ArbCom and RFC/U. This is also easily open to conflicting interpretations, and I would want additional input before settling on clear wording that carries the same meaning both to the two of us and to people unfamiliar with the background to the restriction. I also consider it important not to restrict legitimate pursuit of dispute resolution.

I thought 2over0 had hit the nail on the head at that point, and it's a matter for some regret to me that he had not the time to follow through. Perhaps we should reconsider this rather than going for something more draconian. --TS 20:57, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

It was less an issue of time than that I decided with some regret that if I had not by the point I gave up after three weeks of intense discussion been able to communicate to GoRight why and how their editing had been detrimental to the project, then I would not be able to. I freely admit that I am not the most socially ept editor in the bin, but neither am I alone in being able to convince GoRight to change their approach. If the community can fashion a workable system under which this project can continue to benefit from their contributions without suffering the all to common negatives, I would support that unreservedly. - 2/0 (cont.) 23:49, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• I support Tony's proposal above, and also suggest that some sort of Chinese wall be erected between him and Abd as they appear to feed each others' worst instincts. I just found this blog from GoRight, with an attendant troll from Thegoodlocust. I change my view: let him hang. Guy (Help!) 23:55, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I read it. Is it really that bad? I'm convinced we should embrace our critics, not ban them. I must say, I don't like how GoRight uses the term "pro-AGW". Nobody is "pro" AGW. Can we please use accurate terms? Viriditas (talk) 02:40, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

    *sigh* My off-wiki activities are not germane here. The "About" page on the site tells you all you need to know. I am unaware of any policy that I am violating by running an off-wiki blog, but if such a policy exists please bring it to my attention so that I can take appropriate corrective action. Another user, much more prominent that myself, similarly runs a blog as well where he likewise comments on the comings and goings here, amongst other things. His blog has been discussed many times and the result is always that there is no problem with him doing so.

    @Viriditas : To be specific, the blog is NOT critical of Wikipedia in general but the Climate Change pages and the editing environment there specifically, that is to the extent that it actually is "critical". Regarding "pro-AGW" do you have some alternative that you feel would be more appropriate. --GoRight (talk) 03:09, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

    • I agree that GoRight's blog postings should not be used to sanction him on-wiki, regardless of how constructive or unconstructive those postings may be. If we go that direction there are many so-called "respected admins and content contributors" who could be held to account for far worse postings in other venues. As for "pro-AGW," think about what that literally means: if anything, it is GoRight and like-minded editors who are "pro-AGW." Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:32, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
      • I disagree. Off-wiki actions should be held accountable on-wiki. If we loose "respected" admins and content contributors, so be it. -Atmoz (talk) 05:18, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
      • Right, while we have little or no control of what happens off-wiki I see no problem with taking it into consideration when discussing on-wiki activities. While the discussion appears fairly benign, Guy obviously takes offense and it's hard to see how commentating on a running dispute via a one-way channel could be anything but disruptive (imagine if everyone was doing this). -- samj _in^out 08:47, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

        For the record, everyone is welcome to comment there ... including Guy. --GoRight (talk) 05:51, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

    • Is it "that bad"? Depends on how you define "that bad". It's the usual conspiracy theory bullshit, it further stirs already muddy waters and as a result of reading around his writing off-wiki I now believe that his aim ere is to see his POV better represented, rather than to collaborate. Where he says his off-wiki activities are not relevant to Wikipedia, this is the precise opposite of what he's arguing in the case of the disruptive IP at AN. Obviously I find him tiresome, persistent and frustratingly tenacious in advocating what seems to me to be a politically motivated campaign to reduce the emphasis on the scientific consensus behind global warming, he's also given spectacularly bad advice to Abd who has quite enough problems of his own to be going on with, and he piles into any dispute where he perceives that science might be winning, the difference the blog post makes is that it persuades me that he's here for advocacy not out of genuine concern for the project. We have no shortage of tenacious advocates who cause a lot less friction than GoRight. Guy (Help!) 09:45, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I respect 2over0's and Trusilver's opinions that the attempted rehabilitation has failed. At this point the most appropriate action might seem to be indefinite block (a de facto ban) with user talk rights, so as to permit the continuation of good faith discussion of GoRight's editing rights.

As GoRight has indicated that he doesn't welcome my input. I would also respect that and would not participate in discussion on his talk page unless invited by him.

I do not endorse Guy's opinion of GoRight's blog posting. Although I do not agree with it I do not think it betrays Wikipedia's principles. There are some websites that are well known troll-friendly venues, and I've been unstinting in my criticism of such activity both on and off Wikipedia, but I think GoRight's intent is altogether more wholesome. --TS 00:34, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Not an admin, nor uninvolved, but I support a total ban of GoRight. He's a troll. He has always been a troll. He always will be a troll Has never once contributed anything positive to Wikipedia, except when he thinks he's going to get banned. Then he'll do some menial task until the shitstorm blows over, and then he'll continue on with the trolling. Repeat ad nauseam. -Atmoz (talk) 02:08, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Didn't GoRight have something to do with the recent CRU rename? Whether you agree with the rename or not, his participation in the original discussion could be perceived as positive. I think he deserves a strongly worded "last chance" with a line drawn in the sand. Viriditas (talk) 02:35, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

You are thinking of this. The final discussion was unrelated but generally consistent with it. --GoRight (talk) 03:17, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• ~5,000 words were spent discussing 2 (changing 'hacking incident' to 'email controversy') and as an outsider applying the WP:DUCK test it's got POV pushing written all over it. Let's just agree to disagree that this should be "perceived as positive". -- samj _in^out 16:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

  Unsolicited feedback. --GoRight (talk) 02:38, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• while (1 > 0); last_chance (GoRight); end Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:44, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
• while (2 + 2 = 5); climate_change_articles; end Alex Harvey (talk) 13:04, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - almost everyone asking for a ban on this thread is involved either with Abd or climate change articles, both of which would place them in direct conflict with GoRight. ATren (talk) 16:57, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

  ATren, be very careful, see here why "2) Count Iblis, David Tombe, Likebox, and Hell in a Bucket are indefinitely restricted from advocacy for or commenting on Brews ohare, broadly construed." This is what I did to get in trouble. Count Iblis (talk) 17:16, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• One does not have to go anywhere near Abd or climate change articles to end up "in direct conflict with GoRight"... visiting his talk page (or waiting for him to visit yours) is more than adequate. That's exactly the problem we're trying to solve - many of the areas GoRight works are existing debates (or turn into debates when he arrives) so we can either keep him from debates (MYOB sanction) or keep him from editing altogether (community ban). -- samj _in^out 17:29, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
• I find it severely obvious that only people who have interacted with GoRight have an opinion on him. On the other hand, I find it interesting that you claim that every editor involved with Abd or climate change "automatically" is in direct conflict with GoRight. That does seem to indicate a problem. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:56, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment I find it very interesting that those wanting to ban GoRight have had some of their actions highlighted on the blog he started. TheGoodLocust (talk) 17:20, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I disagree that it's interesting or in any way unexpected, for reasons that should be obvious. An argument that people he has mentioned on his blog are prohibited from commenting on his actions is -- well, let's call it curious, and leave it at that. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:37, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, a couple of the editors have also tried (and failed) to get websites deleted from wikipedia that were critical of them (e.g. encyclopedia dramatica). I think if these people can't laugh off criticism then they shouldn't be on the internet and certainly shouldn't be trying to ban people due to their own personal issues. TheGoodLocust (talk) 17:50, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

This seems like a red herring. GoRight's problematic behavior is on-wiki, and was already evident before the blog was started. Indeed the oldest posting on that blog was made either at the end of his last indefinite block from Wikipedia or at most a few hours afterwards. I also find the notion that Trusilver and 2over0 are posting about GoRight's problems in order to get back at him for the blog somewhat improbable. Let's concentrate on GoRight's actual problematic behavior, not his claims on an external site about the behavior of others. --TS 18:25, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

What Tony said, plus most of this predates most of us even knowing the blog existed. Mind you, by the "logic" you used in respect of the "link" between me and Quiggin and Lambert, you and GoRight are practically married as a result of your posting comments there and you are therefore disqualified from participating in this debate. Sauce for the goose, as they say. Guy (Help!) 18:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Well Guy is the one who brought it up, and he seems to have a habit of taking his off-wiki critcisms on wiki (e.g. [64]) and he isn't the only one advocating a ban (e.g. Atmoz) who have also been criticized on the blog. TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I would be interested to see how neutral you would be about a website that published an article about you written by someone who had taunted you about your sister's death and stating that your recently deceased father was a paedophile. I'd say describing it as "worthless" is comparatively mild, actually I think it's a cesspit and I can't wait for the day it runs out of cash, hopefully assisted down that route by a series of lawsuits for the egregious defamation they publish. Guy (Help!) 11:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Note: Thegoodlocust is also an active contributor and commentator "on the blog [GoRight] started", which apparently routinely criticises editors off-wiki. -- samj _in^out 19:15, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I never said I wasn't a contributer which is why I decided to comment unlike the other people who are most obviously involved in a COI with regards to GoRight. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:48, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Broad consensus that a problem exists: suggest MYOB restriction

There seems to be broad consensus that GoRight's conduct remains problematic and the community would benefit from restrictions. While there is some sentiment that such restrictions should be regarded as the Last Chance Saloon, I don't think this would necessarily be productive because it might encourage some editors to try to trip him up. How about a simple Abd-style "Mind Your Own Business" restriction enforceable by blocks of escalating duration? --TS 19:19, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

MYOB wouldn't do anything about other problems such as attempts to provoke others. Further, since GoRight seems to be using Abd as his role model, any attempt hold him to account likely will be met with similar drawn-out and draining debate. I'm personally getting fed up riding this merry-go-round: at this point I'm willing simply to declare that GoRight is exempt from Wikipedia's behavioral standards and leave it at that. It would save all the block, unblock, reblock drama and the resulting megabytes of argumentation. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:53, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

If we're going to put him in a special category, why not just block him indef, that's pretty special. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:32, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

He was indeffed, but then he was unblocked with a "final warning". Now it's clear that the problem behavior continues, yet nobody has rolled up their sleeves to reblock. Instead, some users were advocating yet another final warning in the form of SamJ's proposal (which I was barely ready to support, but I thought ok - equal preference to a ban is at least generous). Now, it's become even more hilarious with one user suggesting we shouldn't impose final warnings because "it wouldn't be very productive". This resembles a debate about weeds. There are people who appreciate its problematic existence and try to cut its source (that is, at its roots) so that the rest of the garden doesn't become adversely affected by the weed. Yet, some people protest with "no, this weed is a plant in the garden, don't harm it, don't uproot it, its presence is productive, if you think it's causing problems, just trim the top off and it will solve everything". For those of us who have had experience with weeds, that sort of comment is frustratingly clueless or foolish, depending on who it comes from, because it's known that nothing will change until the weed is uprooted. Alas, the sad fate for the Wikipedia garden. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:41, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

People are not "weeds" nor do we treat them as outcasts. Your words are virtually identical to those of every dictator who tried to eliminate the opposition or tyrants who created scapegoats to blame for their problems. We should not dehumanize those who we view as at fault, but rather try to uplift them and give them our hand, even as they bite it. The old thinking that we are separate from everybody else, even our perceived enemies, is no longer valid. GoRight's faults are our own. This view is the only way back to the garden, where weeds and pests are an integral part of the discourse, a mosaic, a web of life. Viriditas (talk) 04:38, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with your angle here, Viriditas. Comparing Ncmvocalist's frustration with a twice-indef banned user to the actions of a dictator trying to eliminate his opposition is taking an argument too far. Dayewalker (talk) 04:50, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Viriditas off-topic, blocked for incivility

Note: I've responded on your talk page. Viriditas (talk) 08:04, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Viriditas seems to have continued to take his argument too far: "The blocking policies are a childish and immature response to a problem that will not go away. Virtual communities require a broad range of users to survive. When you narrow this pool to such an extent, the community will die...it should be easy...allowing problem users to enroll in a trainng program that will enhance their understanding of the site." Does anyone, other than myself, have four words in response to that? Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:26, 28 March 2010 (UTC) More importantly and to the point, Wikipedia was not meant to be used as an MMORPG for noticeboard addicts and people with too much time on their hands who should be busy writing an encyclopedia or helping others write it. It's all about editors and readers and improving the relationship between the two. Too much time is wasted playing "noticeboard" and very little time is spent on improving editorial skills and retaining users. The threat of blocking and being blocked is about as effective as the prison system; In other words, it doesn't work at all. People come here because they want to contribute in some way. Everybody has a special skill or talent, and some bring real knowledge and expertise. That's what we need to tap into and develop; Everything else is pure fluff and a waste of valuable time. We don't need another little dictator who sees people as weeds ripe for the Roundup. Time to grow up. Viriditas (talk) 08:50, 28 March 2010 (UTC) And now you are making personal attacks, being uncivil, and soapboxing, which is in line with some of the misbehavior that has been brought up about you not that long ago. The community disagrees with your view about tendentious editing as it is counterproductive to either writing an encyclopedia, or helping others write it. Addressing tendentious editing has become no different to the weed comparison I brought up above, and it's a pretty understandable frustration. Nobody denies the fact that people come here wanting to contribute in some way; that they cannot do so constructively and use Wikipedia as a game, a battleground, and as something that does not comply with our core policies (be it NPOV, BLP, or others) is indeed the problem. That you (a) suggest I see people as weeds when I don't and (b) personally attack me by calling me a little dictator, when you'd already been told you were going too far, suggests that no amount of training (even by you) would satisfactorily improve the situation. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:48, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I'm sorry you feel that way. In the above, you explicitly compared editors to "weeds" who should be "uprooted". I responded by pointing out that this type of dehumanization was and is the preferred rhetoric of historical dictators and tyrants. Sadly, this aggressive POV is to blame for the disruption and disintegration of virtual communities and leads to their eventual downfall. I'm not sure, but it could be a symptom of hormones. If true, Wikipedia needs stable, mature people with real world experience making unemotional decisions about how to work with editors, not immature MMORPG addicts playing "noticeboard", and racking up blocks. We are dealing with real people, not blips on the screen. We all need to try harder to treat editors as real people, and deal with them on that level. Viriditas (talk) 10:15, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I don't think you are, otherwise you wouldn't continue being uncivil. I compared Wikipedia to a garden and tendentious editing to the weeds that we find in the garden. I maintain that until the weeds are uprooted, there will be no satisfactory change in the long term - and this means removing the source of the problem. I'm sorry if you still feel "dehumanized" by such frustration. Even if I was to play along with your uncanny misinterpretation, that would still not warrant the uncivil comments (and personal attacks) that you've been making overall and the way you've tried to disrupt this thread. I request that someone prevents Viriditas from continuing to engage in such unseemly conduct. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Note: Viriditas has been blocked for repeatedly engaging in the incivility above. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

It may be worth taking into account GoRight's interpretation of Abd's MYOB sanction (as clarified: "The rule is simple: never comment about any conflict between two or more people who are not you."). Here's the money quote: "Please note that the meanings of the words 'discussing any dispute' and/or 'comment about any conflict' are distinct and non-overlapping with the words 'participating in a dispute'". The moral of the story is that if the MYOB sanction is not 100% water tight then GoRight won't WP:HEAR it until we've all been dragged through clarification after clarification after clarification after clarification as we have with User:Abd (who has since declared that he'd rather retire than be forced to mind his own business). Sometimes the pursuit of justice just isn't worth the effort - there comes a point where we need to cut our losses.

Between this epic wikilawyering, the personal attack against User:William_M._Connolley a day or two ago and today's sporadic reshuffling of the municipal broadband article I'm leaning more and more towards restoring the indef block and leaving the onus on GoRight to explain (on his talk page) under what conditions he should be allowed to participate. -- samj _in^out 04:26, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

TheGoodLocust off-topic discussion of WP:NPA

You call that a personal attack? I've seen far worse - especially from the "victims" you are presenting. Besides, it is a valid point considering the whole Essjay business - some people will put forward their so-called academic credentials as a way to bend the wiki-winds in their favor. TheGoodLocust (talk) 06:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Yes, this is a clear and recent violation of WP:NPA: criticising someone for displaying their academic credentials and cherry-picking quotes out of context is hardly WP:CIVIL - comment on the content, not the contributor. Essjay is irrelevant - there's no doubt that William_M._Connolley holds a doctorate, nor any imperative for other editors to take that into consideration. -- samj inout 11:50, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Wow that's how you read that? What specifically was GoRight's criticism - tell me his actual words that you find so offensive and not your interpretation. The fact of the matter is that WMC and Short Brigade (the other editor pushing for a ban) were criticizing people in actual sources for their PhDs - there was no criticism from GoRight that was just a lighthearted joke on his part. Anyway I could care less if WMC has a PhD, I have no idea if he does or not, his article doesn't have a source supporting that claim (last time I checked anyway), and it doesn't really matter since his PhD doesn't deal with the group of articles that he edits.TheGoodLocust (talk) 17:50, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Yeah nice try changing the subject there, but this is about GoRight's conduct, not WMC. GoRight is already on a last-last chance-- he shouldn't be running around causing trouble, he should be keeping his head down and avoiding controversy. Obviously this is impossible for him, thus, out the door he should go. Jtrainor (talk) 11:35, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Broad consensus for ban

I think it's clear that my suggested sanction would not be appropriate. GoRight's propensity for wikilawyering and antagonistic engagement would not really be addressed. I believe there is currently sufficient consensus to support withdrawal of the "final chance" and implementation of a ban from Wikipedia. --TS 12:13, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support for reasons stated above, though if GoRight were subsequently able to construct and explain suitable editing restrictions on his talk page (so as to demonstrate his understanding of the spirit of MYOB restrictions rather than trying to WP:LAWYER around them) then I would be happy to give him a last, last, last chance to prove his potential with substantive edits in quiet areas. -- samj _in^out 15:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• I agree with this assessment. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:17, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Neutral. If you can pick through the shitstorm that occurred in the edits above, I think that Ncmvocalist made some pretty good points. Wikipedia is not therapy, and should not be treated as such. There are only two types of editors, in my mind, the ones that add to the project, and the ones that don't. Now, there are quite a few more respected editors than GoRight who I feel are a bigger liability to the project than he is, and they are in no danger of being kicked out the door. But still, my rationale behind giving GoRight a second (or third, fourth, whatever) chance was that he being contributing to the encyclopedia in an appropriate manner. He did this for a short time, then fell back into his old patterns. My first choice for a sanction would be a broadly construed MYOB and stay away from EVERY article that's even mildly contentious. Every person that edits on Wikipedia is a volunteer, we all sacrifice our time in the pursuit of knowledge. Because of this, every editor on the project deserved dignity and respect - This is why I'm usually the first to suggest that someone be given a second chance. But my patience isn't infinite, and something needs to be done. A ban is my second choice, I'd rather not jump immediately into it, but neither am I going to stand in the way of it. Trusilver 18:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• What would be the point? If he's banned/blocked he'll just cajole a well-meaning admin into unblocking him like he's done all the other times, and we'll be back here again in a couple of months. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
  • If this turns into another defacto ban, and an admin gets cajoled in that manner, we can pass it off to ArbCom as it would be clear sufficient evidence that the community cannot resolve this issue with its own mechanisms. If this is a formal ban however, an admin would not be permitted to touch the ban without community consensus (if they did without a consensus, then again, it'd be passed off to ArbCom). As a community, we agree that there's a problem and it needs to be addressed - we need to demonstrate that we've attempted to address and resolve the issue through the mechanisms that we have available to us, whether it's through agreement, disagreement, consensus, or even no-consensus. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
• A ban is fine by me, if he's allowed to stay then he needs a MYOB sanction and topic bans from controversial areas as Trusilver suggests, but to be honest I can't see the point. Guy (Help!) 21:59, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
• Yeah, unless someone can work out something truly brilliant along the lines of what TS quoted above from my unblocking discussion with GoRight. The Ban Appeals SubCommittee is probably the best place for any appeals. - 2/0 (cont.) 22:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

User disregarding consensus and guidelines, forcing edits through

User:Magicianbink has been continually forcing his edits through on the Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 article and other video games in the same series. Me and several other editors have opposed his edits which consist solely of adding lists of music used in the game(s), and his responses so far have been: Personal attacks[65], forcing his edits through[66](by his own admission), and just circumventing the consensus, which is against adding the listcruft he wants to add. We have explained why the information is inappropriate, which guidelines apply, we have tried explaining how he could go about it in another way, the general response is: The rules support what HE is saying. So, the next logical step is bringing it here. Eik Corell (talk) 02:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

- Hello this is magicianbink, I have tried on numerous occasions to work with both Eik Corell and Falcon9x5 to find a way that i can update the article and provide information that is relevant to the the Tony Hawks Pro skater series, while i understand the a basic list of songs Isn't conducive to a good article i have explained my intentions of improving that format, which has only been met with further negativity. As a person who has followed the series and have used these articles for reference i can safely say that the consensus has in the past leaned toward content edited in a somewhat similar fashion to my own, and those editors have also been met by pressure and bullying by users that by my own experience have no inclination to compromise. I understand there are rules but there are also exceptions to these rules otherwise why would there be any debate at all or the need for any means of consensus if these rules were so set in stone Magicianbink (talk) 19:28, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Just like to point out that Magicianbink hasn't tried to "find a way" to update the article, and has essentially ignored the four separate times I've tried to give advice on how to include the music[67][68][69][70], three separate times on the alternate ways he can work on the list without leaving it half finished on the article itself[71][72][73], and has instead repeatedly reinserted the list (which I and Eik above feel is gamecruft, listcruft etc) without modification. Thanks! Fin©™ 20:02, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Hello again, I have been slowly working on the article leaving it edited but functional, i have tried to come to an understanding about the relevance of the the music to this style of game and how i would like to slowly improve it. but instead of actual constructive feedback i got dismissive remarks and "wiki bullying". I understand their concerns but i have no intention of harming the article only to add to it and improve the overall value of the information contained thank you Magicianbink (talk) 00:59, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Additionally i would like to point out the both Eik Corell and Flacon9x5 have been accused of over-zealously removing content by many other users, my goal was to reestablish what was there in the past only to have it once again removed Magicianbink (talk) 02:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Problem on Race and Intelligence mediation

because of the spurious ANI proceedings initiated by Mathsci, here - Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Criticism_of_mediation_on_Race_and_intelligence, I now have had user:JzG close the mediation case without cause or discussion. I've reverted and left him a note on the matter, but if it happens again I am stuck, because I do not want to get in an edit war over the matter. I do not know precisely how to deal with an admin who would unilaterally close a mediation, against consensus (as there is no consensus to close the mediation in the thread above on even an attempt at establishing consensus in the mediation itself), and without any discussion anywhere on the matter.

I've had enough of this, and I would appreciate some administrative action on this matter now before it spins farther out of control. --Ludwigs2 17:17, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

my mistake - I just now noticed that JzG and Guy are the same user, so he did indeed participate in the above discussion. however, the rest of what I said still stands. --Ludwigs2 17:25, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Um, "spurious?" I don't think so. But yes, your mistake: you have been getting admin action, Xavexgoem and I are both admins. Oddly, the two admins involved are the ones whose actions you reverted and then asked for admin intervention. Ironic, no? Guy (Help!) 18:45, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

spurious, yes. Closing the mediation is a matter that Mathsci could have quickly and easily handled on the mediation talk page. Instead, he chose to hijack a thread on a different subject and turn it into a vindictive attack on me for no particularly good or useful reason. I don't share his taste for drama-trauma, and I'm sorry if you do. However, all I am asking is that you respect what seems to be the actual mediation consensus that we should push ahead with it a while longer. I don't quite see what the problem is with allowing that, and I'd be happy to have you explain.

And just so you know, my attitude on admins is that they are just editors with a decent amount of experience and some extra powers. getting a sysop bit set does not make one smarter, wiser, more noble, or more correct than any other editor, and if an admin starts behaving as though that's what the sysop bit does, s/he should have it taken away immediately. I respect you for your experience, Guy, and normally I would listen to your advice. But when it comes to consensus decisions you get to argue your case in a proper discussion just like the rest of us more proletarian editors. or am I wrong? --Ludwigs2 19:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

It is a fairly well-known fact that any issue brought to the admin boards can and often will turn round into an investigation of wider issues - especially in the not infrequent episodes of foot-shooting we see. Mathsci raised, in my view, valid points which you chose to try to deny. If you think admins are nothing special (which is true) then why are you soliciting admin action here? We don't usually take sides just because someone says we should. You have admin attention in the other thread, you've chosen to revert the actions of those admins and then come here asking for admin action to stop the admin action, which is bordering on surreal. Guy (Help!) 19:34, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

to answer your first question: you'll notice that I am not objecting to Mathsci's concerns about whether the mediation should be closed, or that I might not be the best person to handle it. that is certainly something that should be discussed, if that's the way he feels, and I would be happy to discuss it. However:

1. There is nothing in that discussion that currently requires administrator intervention. The idea should have been shifted to the mediation talk page and carried out there, and we would have quickly come to some kind of resolution about it.
2. Mathsci never attempted to discuss the issue, he simply launched into an extensive diatribe in which he dragged out every thing he thinks I've done wrong since the first day I joined wikipedia, and kept harping on it endlessly. It was rude, uncivil, and totally uncalled for in any context, much less this one. I'm actually shocked that an administrator (such as yourself) didn't rein him in and insist that he adopt a more civil, productive tone; If someone had, we would have quickly come to some kind of resolution.

In short, Mathsci chose to ignore a number of quiet, simple, civil ways in which he could have expressed his concerns and resolved the issue, and reached instead for a protracted personal attack against me which quickly went beyond any mediation issues into pure nastiness, with no hope or possibility of a civil ending. I hope he got some pleasure out of it, because I can't see what other value taking that particular approach has.

To answer your other question, I came here because you seemed to be acting in bad faith, and I don't have the special powers of an admin to keep you in check. I was (frankly) worried that you were going to tendentiously edit war the mediation into closure against consensus, and then use your admin powers to block me if I tried to prevent you. with that in mind I came here looking for someone uninvolved who could match the special powers you have been given, and hopefully give myself a little breathing room. thankfully it turned out I was wrong, but you can see why I might be concerned about that kind of bad behavior, given the comments you've made about me here and in the thread above. --Ludwigs2 20:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Interesting but unsurprising that Ludwigs2 created a new thread without informing me. Mathsci (talk) 22:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

There are still problems with mediation on Race and intelligence. Another editor emailed me about this exchange between Ludwigs2 and Xavexgoem.[74] [75][76][77] In the meantime I left this conciliatory message on Ludwigs2's talk page.[78] Mathsci (talk) 08:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Admin email phishing

Archiving per WP:DENY. NW (Talk) 17:50, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Now resolved, Arbcom does not need further copies of the emails. Thanks all. Risker (talk) 02:20, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Just received this email: “ Dear Islander, We tried to get in contact with you almost a year ago, detailing our desires to utilise your account to help rid Wikipedia of the corruption and bureaucracy at every level that continues to plague it to this very day. We are hoping that, almost a year on, your circumstances may have changed and you may be more willing to aid us in achieving our goal. At the end of the day we all want the same thing - an encyclopedia that is informative and accurate, but one that is also run in a fair manner so all can contribute on an equitable level. As a reminder, here is an extract from our original message: "We are currently expanding our portfolio of administrator accounts, and as yours remains dormant perhaps you could consider donating it to us - to do so will take you only two minutes: change the password (if desired) and then reply to this email with your login details. We'll do the rest!" Once more, thank you for your time and consideration, and naturally do not hesitate to contact us if you have any questions. Kind Regards, The Wikipedia Freedom Fighters ” It's strange, a) because they actually think I'd give them my account, and b) 'cause I'm not actually dormant - much less active than I used to be, but not dormant. Anyway, this isn't so much a plea for help or anything, just an FYI - apologies if I should have posted elsewhere. TalkIslander 14:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Quite a concern if any admin ever took that seriously. Did the email come from an account? If so,, which one? SGGH ping! 14:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC) There is a similar report at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#admin phishing attempt. ≈ Chamal talk ¤ 14:55, 28 March 2010 (UTC) The email came from User:WFFighter and he is already blocked. Off2riorob (talk) 14:57, 28 March 2010 (UTC) It should be investigated if WFFighter's account was created by Scibaby. Count Iblis (talk) 14:58, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Also blocked WikiFreedomFyta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and 4 others (check my log - I'm not exactly active) for the same reason. The user names aren't exactly subtle.--Nilfanion (talk) 15:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I have a feeling it might either be a bot, or someone with too much time on their hands. I also got this exact message this morning. nat.utoronto 15:35, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Well, now this guy made User:Moresubtle. I guess that's more subtle... (X! · talk)  · @742  ·  16:48, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I also received the message from WikiFFighters (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). ~MDD4696 15:43, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I got the same e-mail as well, from WikiFFyta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). VegaDark (talk) 16:21, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Blocked 6 more. Then I get a message, probably from WFF: [79] (X! · talk)  · @734  ·  16:37, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Add me to the list of people who received this. I immediately thought it looks like a phishing scam. I don't recall ever being contacted by these people before, and although I scaled down my involvement in Wikipedia by about 99% about 18 months ago (for various reasons), I still log in on occasion and so calling my account inactive is incorrect. I did a Google search and saw some bot got this same message, too. Another bit of fishiness is if this an actual movement, why would they wait "nearly a year" before following up? 23skidoo (talk) 16:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Me too. I blocked him immediately. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:45, 28 March 2010 (UTC) And this is why I only use my email account for site identification purposes. HalfShadow 16:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Just received one of these emails too, from User:Moresubtle namely. --Angelo (talk) 16:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Goldfishhunting (talk · contribs) This is another one. -- Cirt (talk) 16:58, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Just got one from WikiFreedomFaccount. I don't issue blocks; could another admin please do so if the account isn't already blocked? Thanks. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 16:58, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I feel special. Searchingfortuna (talk · contribs) sent me one. I'm tempted to mention a random word, see if they create a username based on it. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 17:02, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I got one from Goldfishhunting22222 (talk · contribs). —David Eppstein (talk) 17:06, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Got one from (and subsequently zapped) UsernameinspiredbyBloodRedSandman (talk · contribs). Heh. EVula // talk // ☯ // 17:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I whacked Goodthingsplanned (talk · contribs). DMacks (talk) 17:13, 28 March 2010 (UTC) OK, so now he's just enjoying the attention, or he's truly jobless... ≈ Chamal talk ¤ 17:16, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Just got one from Nevergonnastopever. What confuses me is, don't you have to be a verified user to send emails? These accounts were made minutes before the emails were sent. --Golbez (talk) 17:22, 28 March 2010 (UTC) nope, any account can--Jac16888Talk 17:26, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Doesn't have to be autoconfirmed as long as you have your email address verified. ≈ Chamal talk ¤ 17:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I got one from WikiFreedomFighteraccount (talk · contribs). This concerns me a great deal. – Quadell (talk) 17:26, 28 March 2010 (UTC) We might need a CU or a range block. SGGH ping! 17:39, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I got one from Nothingtodowithwff (talk · contribs). Could we have a checkuser identify and block the underlying IP range, please? Horologium (talk) 17:43, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Yes please, I've also had one from Goodthingsplanned. Maybe everyone is getting one. That would make sense. Dougweller (talk) 17:47, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I just got one from the same account. --Dinoguy1000 (talk · contribs) as 67.58.229.153 (talk) 17:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC) So everyone knows, the Arbitration Committee is aware of this - we've been forwarded three emails so far - and I've looked into this with checkuser. Unfortunately, these accounts are coming from a range too large to block, and in many cases too busy for checkuser to be effective in finding any unblocked accounts - although the timeline of events shown in this thread leads me to believe that there aren't any sleepers to look for, anyway (cf the BloodRedSandMan account). Sorry, all. Please don't give out your passwords - I would assume those of you blocking these accounts won't, but at the rate these emails are going out, they're bound to find someone willing to do so. Please don't add to that number. Hersfold (t/a/c) 17:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I've had one now, I don't wish to continue giving ammunition however the account (which I have indef'd) was called "100moretogo" which suggests they have some and are counting (though I doubt it). Sad. SGGH ping! 18:22, 28 March 2010 (UTC) This isn't the first time that someone has tried this stunt. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 18:20, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Very strange phishing email Just received the following email: “ Dear active administrator, As an advanced user here at wikipedia, I am sure you are familiar with the corruption and bureaucracy that exists at every level, with the site effectively being run by a clique of editors who are only looking out for their own interests. Heck, maybe you are one of them! Hopefully though you are not, and would be willing to help us restore fairness and integrity to the project... We are currently expanding our portfolio of administrator accounts and perhaps you could consider sharing yours with us - to do so will take you only two minutes: change the password (if desired) and then reply to this email with your login details. We'll do the rest! Thank you for your time and consideration, and naturally do not hesitate to contact us if you have any questions. Kind Regards, The Wikipedia Freedom Fighters -- This e-mail was sent by user "Genuinelyawikiquizzling" on the English Wikipedia to user "Masem". It has been automatically delivered and the Wikimedia Foundation cannot be held responsible for its contents. ” Searching gives nothing for "Genuinelyawikiquizzling" or "The Wikipedia Freedom Fighters". Very very curious. --MASEM (t) 17:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Same e-mail here, reporting the email address to google as a phishing email. --Michael Greiner 18:02, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I just received the same message from "Nevergonnastopever." ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:05, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Email requesting my Wikipedia password I just received an email that said what you see below. It requests my password that I use for logging in to my Wikipedia user account. Michael Hardy (talk) 18:33, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Dear active administrator, As an advanced user here at wikipedia, I am sure you are familiar with the corruption and bureaucracy that exists at every level, with the site effectively being run by a clique of editors who are only looking out for their own interests. Heck, maybe you are one of them! Hopefully though you are not, and would be willing to help us restore fairness and integrity to the project... We are currently expanding our portfolio of administrator accounts and perhaps you could consider sharing yours with us - to do so will take you only two minutes: change the password (if desired) and then reply to this email with your login details. We'll do the rest! Thank you for your time and consideration, and naturally do not hesitate to contact us if you have any questions. Kind Regards, The Wikipedia Freedom Fighters -- This e-mail was sent by user "Genuinelyawikiquizzling" on the English Wikipedia to user "Michael Hardy". It has been automatically delivered and the Wikimedia Foundation cannot be held responsible for its contents. I got this too, from User:Saynotoarbcomclique. I indeffed the account; a CU is probably in order to catch other socks. Ucucha 18:35, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Got the same thing myself just now, except this one came from User:Adnimsarestupid. Hopefully no-one is stupid enough to actually do this... Tabercil (talk) 18:36, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Also see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#admin_phishing_attempt Equazcion (talk) 18:37, 28 Mar 2010 (UTC) I got one from User:Nevergonnastopever. Yes, a CU might help. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:38, 28 March 2010 (UTC) This thread was archived prematurely, as I just got an email from User:Epicwin4me. It was already blocked, but a CU would be advisable to avoid even more wasted time. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:47, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I got one too! I'm special! Tony Fox (arf!) 18:56, 28 March 2010 (UTC) ArbCom is aware of this (having been alerted by over half a dozen admins so far), and are looking into any possible action that checkusers could take. NW (Talk) 18:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Given phishing like this is generally illegal, might it help to have these emails forwarded to the offending user's ISP? Resolute 18:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Please forward these emails to ArbCom for tracking purposes. Hersfold (t/a/c) 18:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I'm monitoring the User creation log for any suspicious looking usernames, and I'll forward any that I see to somebody on IRC. The Thing // Talk // Contribs 19:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Not much point; emailed every single admin with emailuser enabled now :D 86.181.40.68 (talk) 19:05, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Hersfold, which address should we use? I don't think you want us all to send them to the mailing list; it'll get clogged up very quickly... Horologium (talk) 19:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Is it any wonder that between AN and AN/I we have five threads on this topic since they getting collapsed with a pointer toward WP:DENY? Perhaps rather than prematurely archiving all of the threads, we could have one, well named thread open where admins who have been contacted can look for and receive information for what they need to do. — Kralizec! (talk) 19:04, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Just send the emails to [email protected] and let them deal with it. A lot of admins got it, and it seems it went by A-Z order (I was one of the last to get an email). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:11, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Also received one, I will forward. Useight (talk) 21:17, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Thanks to those who have forwarded their emails - at this point we've gotten the info we need, so we probably don't need any more. Thanks much! Hersfold (t/a/c) 23:22, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Sorry, just sent mine then came here. User (UsernameinspiredbyBloodRedSandman) already indefed I was happy to see. Why do they bother? This is so hamfisted and useless—as if any admin or experienced user would actually give their login details.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC) Email I just received this email. Not sure what if anything to do with other than ignore it.RJFJR (talk) 19:04, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Dear active administrator, As an advanced user here at wikipedia, I am sure you are familiar with the corruption and bureaucracy that exists at every level, with the site effectively being run by a clique of editors who are only looking out for their own interests. Heck, maybe you are one of them! Hopefully though you are not, and would be willing to help us restore fairness and integrity to the project... We are currently expanding our portfolio of administrator accounts and perhaps you could consider sharing yours with us - to do so will take you only two minutes: change the password (if desired) and then reply to this email with your login details. We'll do the rest! Thank you for your time and consideration, and naturally do not hesitate to contact us if you have any questions. Kind Regards, The Wikipedia Freedom Fighters -- This e-mail was sent by user "Bringerofmuchlulzeth" on the English Wikipedia to user "RJFJR". It has been automatically delivered and the Wikimedia Foundation cannot be held responsible for its contents. The sender has not been given the recipient's email address, or any information about his/her e-mail account; and the recipient has no obligation to reply to this e-mail or take any other action that might disclose his/her identity. For further information on privacy, security, and replying, as well as abuse and removal from emailing, see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Email>. See the "Email requesting my Wikipedia password" or "Very strange phishing email" or "Wikipedia Freedom Fighters" threads above. — Kralizec! (talk) 19:07, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I just saw it. I was removing my post when I got an edit conflict with your reply. (Sorry, should have checked first rather than post first.) RJFJR (talk) 19:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC) A quick google search shows that a run like this happened last may. Wikipedia Review thread --Michael Greiner 21:39, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Request for my inactive account. Just saw this in my mailbox. Dear KnowledgeOfSelf, We tried to get in contact with you almost a year ago, detailing our desires to utilise your account to help rid Wikipedia of the corruption and bureaucracy at every level that continues to plague it to this very day. We are hoping that, almost a year on, your circumstances may have changed and you may be more willing to aid us in achieving our goal. At the end of the day we all want the same thing - an encyclopedia that is informative and accurate, but one that is also run in a fair manner so all can contribute on an equitable level. As a reminder, here is an extract from our original message: "We are currently expanding our portfolio of administrator accounts, and as yours remains dormant perhaps you could consider donating it to us - to do so will take you only two minutes: change the password (if desired) and then reply to this email with your login details. We'll do the rest!" Once more, thank you for your time and consideration, and naturally do not hesitate to contact us if you have any questions. Kind Regards, The Wikipedia Freedom Fighters Just thought I'd give ya a heads up KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 23:22, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Aye, we've all had one ... look up ^^^^ Black Kite 23:23, 28 March 2010 (UTC) See WP:ANI#Admin email phishing. -FASTILYsock(TALK) 01:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

What to do if you receive one of these emails

• Please don't forward the e-mails to the arbitration committee mailing list. We already have enough samples and any more will not be helpful. If someone could track down all the discussions about this and redirect towards a single location, telling people what to do and retracting the previous messages to forward the e-mails to arb-l, that would be appreciated. I hear that there was also a message on IRC asking for the e-mails to be forwarded to the arbitration committee - if that could be retracted as well (or however that is done over there) that would be good as well. Carcharoth (talk) 01:55, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
• So what should we do? Just ignore it? I'm half-tempted to send this luser a fake password for my Wikipedia account, then disable my email link & take a month-long WikiBreak. (That would give him something to do with all of that spare time.) -- llywrch (talk) 04:25, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Just ignor it, and indeff the sender if not already done. Mjroots (talk) 05:47, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Don't forget to disable email =) –xeno^talk 13:01, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Giggle and ignore. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

  Giggle, ensure that the sender is blocked, then ignore. Future commenters: please consider not commenting to this thread, as the goal is likely drama—don't feed the trolls. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits|⚡}} 20:43, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

  Maybe commenting here is drama, maybe it's simply the fact some of us don't visit the Noticeboards on a regular basis, & feel compelled to say something along the lines of "WTF???" (And for any Admin who is compelled to say something else, like "Screw the ArbCom, I wanna discuss this!" go to this thread.) -- llywrch (talk) 22:48, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• If whoever is doing this really wants recognition, [80] has some law enforcement links. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 06:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Improper DYK hook for Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories

Resolved

 – Wrong venue. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 21:34, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

This is a crosspost from Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Poor hook for Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories

There is a hook on the main page for Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories that reads:

... that although U.S. President Barack Obama is Christian, high-ranked al-Qaida member Ayman al-Zawahiri has falsely claimed that Obama secretly "pray[s] the prayers of the Jews"?

I don't believe that such a hook should have been approved. This hook violates the neutrality criteria required by DYK which states focus unduly on negative aspects of living individuals should be avoided. I would also like to point out that the article Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories does not state that al-Qaida member Ayman al-Zawahiri claims are false. Am I the only one who is dissatisfied with such a hook?Smallman12q (talk) 21:27, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

WP:ERRORS is the venue for this. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 21:34, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

So we've got members of the extreme right claiming Obama is a secret Muslim, and we've got Muslims claiming he's a secret Jew. Priceless. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

That is pretty freakin funny. I think I'll start a rumor that he's really a Hindu and plans to free all the cows... Beeblebrox (talk) 19:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

It's all quite ridiculous, because the evidence is clear that he's been a secret druid for years. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

We need to complete the circle and have Jews claiming he's a secret Christian. --Carnildo (talk) 01:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Or worse yet, a secret Republican. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:52, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I know a few of those actually. They smoke weed and drink beer every night and all weekend long then go back to work and loudly complain to their co-workers about lazy liberals ruining the country. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:16, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Questioning User:Arthur Rubin's actions on Kent Hovind

Yep, it's me again, questioning my own actions. I reverted 96.42.14.229 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) a number of times on Kent Hovind, and finally blocked him. However, as not all the edits were vandalism, and I've previously been active in the article, I thought I'd put my own actions up for review. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

That looks like a good block to me - the editor was appropriately warned and pretty much all their edits were vandalism. Nick-D (talk) 09:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Good block. Taken together, I would consider all the edits vandalism. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Silly vandalism on a WP:BLP. Sound block. Guy (Help!) 08:30, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Younus AlGohar & MFI disputed articles

Can some administrators look on above mentioned articles, as the editors of these articles are very biased and using WP for advertising. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.71.16.225 (talk) 11:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

1. All wp:SPS references have been used.
2. They using WP to preach their dogmas.
3. Above mentioned articles urgently needs a clean up.

As I have mentioned earlier that Omi & Nasir are biased & using WP for advertisement, nasir is constantly violating wp. This is the evidence, another evidence —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.71.16.225 (talk) 11:32, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

See next entry: probable sock of banned sockmaster Iamsaa (talk · contribs) Esowteric+Talk 11:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

No, you are wrong as I am not sock of banned sockmaster Iamsaa (talk · contribs).

• Younus AlGohar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) was riddled with statements that he has performed miracles <ref>youtube video</ref> and the like, I have trimmed out some of the more obvious puffery but this clearly needs more attention and potentially redirecting to another article if the subject is as minor as he appears to me. Guy (Help!) 13:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your help, Guy. It's true that these articles suffer from a lot of puffery and substandard sourcing. — Scientizzle 13:35, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Sock of Iamsaa at it again?

Looks like an ipsock of sockmaster Iamsaa (talk · contribs)

• 116.71.15.170 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

and in the above AN/I entry:

• 116.71.16.225 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

bopping all over the place

• 116.71.2.101 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Reverting previously deleted malicious talk page content; etc. edit diff Esowteric+Talk 11:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Sock or not, the edits are disruptive, uncivil and attack identifiable living individuals. Blocked 2 weeks. The talk page can be sprotected if necessary. Guy (Help!) 13:35, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks Guy and Scientizzle. The sad thing is that he does have a point, but has not been going about it the right way. "I'm watching you ..." here on my talk page doesn't help one jot. Esowteric+Talk 13:46, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree, he has a point but that's not the way to pursue it. I have done some pruning but I really need people with much deeper subject knowledge on new religious movements and ideally understanding of the languages so that sources can be evaluated; this looks like a walled garden to me:

• Kalki Avatar Foundation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Mehdi Foundation International (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Interfaith Institute of Divine Love (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Younus AlGohar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Ra Gohar Shahi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I don't see a lot of mainstream sources in these articles, it looks like one of those tiny cults that spring up around individual gurus, and much of the text in the articles is in-universe descriptions of wonderful works, miracles and such, cited back to YouTube or a small group of websites dedicated to promoting the movement. I get an itchy delete finger looking at this stuff so more eyes would be greatly appreciated. Guy (Help!) 16:33, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks again. Have left a note at the New Religious Movements workgroup talk page here. Regards, Esowteric+Talk 18:28, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I've been accused of being related to AlGohar (maybe because of my surname) and promoting the interests of the MFI or Shahi, however, I deny it all. I've only been interested in these few subjects, hence decided to help out regarding the articles. What I've come across, whilst researching Shahi, the MFI and AlGohar is that the mentioned are not at all a petty cult, and have sprung about the world, quite a bit more than just often. E.g. Newspapers around two years ago mentioned the then President of the U.S. being in talks with the then Chief Minister of Pakistan, regarding Shahi and the MFI, however, the MFI always seems to lack coverage from the Media, hence (Help! seems to think that this is just another cult. I've witnessed some of the activities that this organization has come about with a bit closely, and my personal observation wouldn't say that they are a cult, rather promote the interests of Shahi and purport him to be the syncretic fulfillment of the mainstream religions of this era.

Try looking into their websites for a possible broader view. ----  Nasir | ناصر یونس  have a chat  19:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Thank you all for comments on above. Could anybody direct me how do I pursue this matter. You can get information on MFI by clicking here. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.71.21.214 (talk) 06:15, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The article certainly educates the reader about the POV of "the opposition", but as Omirocksthisworld (talk · contribs) noticed, the references look impressive at first glance ... until you actually click on them. Esowteric+Talk 09:30, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I already knew that Omi would refuse this article and lame reasons were presented from Omi as per my calculations, but this is up to the Wikipedia:Verifiability and you can't ignor it, as it contains true information, a lot of research work and even the author took interview of younus on telephone.--116.71.7.194 (talk) 09:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

You should take the article to the Reliable sources noticeboard and ask uninvolved parties there. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Esowteric+Talk 09:37, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

User:Huckamike and non-free images

Resolved

User:Huckamike joined the project on 11 February 2010. Since that time, non-free images have been removed from his userpage seven times, by two editors and a bot.

• 21 February 2010 [81] by DASHBot.
• 27 February 2010 [82] by DASHBot.
• 1 March 2010 [83] by DASHBot.
• 2 March 2010 [84] by Rockfang.
• 3 March 2010 [85] by DASHBot.
• 3 March 2010 [86] by Hammersoft.
• 4 March 2010 [87] by Hammersoft.

Huckamike was informed that the use of such images violates policy by DASHBot, by Rockfang, by myself and by me again. In this last post to his talk page, he was warned that violating WP:NFCC #9 again would result in me recommending he be indefinitely blocked until he agrees to stop violating our policies. He chose to ignore this warning, and placed File:Krispy Kreme logo.svg on to his userpage [88]. I have subsequently removed the image.

I am asking an administrator to please block Huckamike and prevent his editing of his userpage until such time as he agrees to abide by our non-free content policy. Huckamike has been informed of this thread. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 15:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I redirected his user page to his user talk and protected the redirect, as a less brutal solution than blocking. I also left instructions for him on how to get the protection reversed. CIreland (talk) 16:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Thank you! --Hammersoft (talk) 14:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Catholic Church

POV and accuracy tags installed by me and detailed on the talk page [89] [90] were removed by an admin, UBER ^(talk) without resollving the dispute. He is edit warring with me as well. He has recently exhibited an ownership mentality of the page and his removal of these tags is further evidence of the problem. NancyHeise ^talk 16:28, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

First of all, I am not an administrator, and I cannot understand such a blatantly false assertion. The above user wants to include a POV tag in the article while the article is actively undergoing improvements and while there is an outstanding RFC on its content and structure. I reverted her twice but now I'm done. As I explained in the talk page, I don't want to get bogged down in an edit war.UBER ^(talk) 16:35, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Nancy: A review of the dispute indicates that you are attempting to bend the article into a sympathetic PR piece for the Catholic Church. This does not mean that the current version of the article is perfect either, but the direction in which you are attempting to move the content, and the manner in which you are doing it, is easily construed as disruptive. Use your most recent posts on the article's talk page to flesh out the ideas that you feel are represented poorly, using reliable sources, and then begin enhancing the article. Hiberniantears (talk) 16:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I have listed the items on the talk page as an alert to the article's editors of the problems that exist in the article. I resent the statement "attempting to bend the article into a sympathetic PR piece" as a violation of WP:assume good faith. I have repeatedly asked the article's editors to go see other encyclopedias articles on the Church to be able to understand my complaints about the current article's problems. The items I am asking for are already part of other encyclopedias such as World Book Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Americana as well as univeristy textbooks on the Church and scholarly sources. The present article's omissions make it a POV problem as well as the items it chooses to emphasize. NancyHeise ^talk 16:40, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, and you have posted the same items at the RfC. So either let the issue play out in the various forums in which it is currently under debate, or return to the article and focus on building the content one issue at a time. For example, spend a week focused on just the contribution to global education by the Church. I'm a Catholic, and I can tell you that my POV is that the Church is currently lucky this article isn't solely about pedophilia at this point. I commend you for trying to expand content on the "good" still done by the Church, but bear in mind that the "evil" done by the hierarchy outweighs the good in the mind of many, Catholic or otherwise. A truly balanced and complete article on the Catholic church is going to have detailed examinations of the Church's charities, educational institutions, care for the poor and sick, hospitals, etc... but it will also have things like the Inquisition, Pogroms, warrior Popes, hereditary Popes, fascism/autocratic partnerships (see Italy, Spain, or just about any Latin American country), pedophilia, and a current Pope who in addition to fighting in the Nazi army, also appears to have been a career-long cover up artist for child abuse. The fact is, you're dealing with a complex 2000 year old institution that has been more focused on power than faith for the majority of its history. That, to me, sounds like the makings of a highly complex and interesting article, which necessarily requires a diversity of views, your's included, to be meaningful. Hiberniantears (talk) 16:55, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I cannot believe this appalling list of misapprehensions and urban legends about the Church! Sounds a bit like Dan Brown's "history". The pope "fighting in the Nazi army!" A "lifelong cover-up artist for child abuse"! Catholic pogroms! "hereditary popes" ? Where do you get this stuff! This is why we need a balanced position on the article with people here who do not drink in every negative claim - however wild - made against the Church and want to publish it as true. Rigour in an article needs all sides present, and presenting information on the basis of reliable sources and consensus. Xandar 20:17, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Aye. He was only in the Hitler Youth, and he only spent a few years burying evidence of paedophile abuse by priests, hard to see why anyone would criticise him for that. Oh, wait. Guy (Help!) 22:25, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Xander clearly knows what he's talking about: List_of_sexually_active_popes#Sexually_active_during_their_pontificate... :-) Plus, there is this, and this. Never mind this little ditty. Hiberniantears (talk) 03:38, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I believe that we have illustrations of all the issues you bring up in our long version of the article here User:NancyHeise/Catholic Church. These were cut by the present article's creators. In the long article, we provide Reader with all points of view about the issues as opposed to eliminating all mention of them entirely as the current article does do. Although I have been accused of lacking good faith for trying to include article text that meets WP:NPOV by including both viewpoints on controversial issues, I have never been accused of trying to cover up "evil" done by the Church. In fact, one of the most important issues of the 20th century that the current article omits is John Paul II's numerous apologies for past Church sins and the Church's efforts at improved relations with people of other faiths and Christian denominations. These exist in the long version (see Industrial Age section under WWII paragraph[91].) The medium version of the article listed at the RFC is the long version minus all the quotes from scholars supporting article text and some pictures.[92] I improved the sexual abuse section of that article as well. As for your assertion that the institution has been more focused on power than faith, I have tried to include mention of the summary provided by Francis Oakley that the Church's contribution to society, in spite of its corruptions of the past, were to expose the people of Western Civilization to the Gospel and that this alone was the key ingredient that transformed Western society. Francis Oakley's book is a university press and the quote is on googlebooks here [93]. I think the same situation exists today, the present scandal exists not because people were following the Gospel but because they weren't. NancyHeise ^talk 17:12, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

(ec)May I note that you, NancyHeise, frequently removed the exact same tags from other versions of the article? I have no problem with the article being tagged, however, I think it is disingenious to do so when there is an ongoing RfC on which version of the article to use as a base of improvements. Those tags could serve to tilt opinions toward your proposed solution and away from this version. I request that one of two things happen: a) the tags remain on the article but others may tag your proposed versions as well or b) no tags on the article or its suggested replacements until after the RfC closes. Karanacs (talk) 16:58, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I do not think that I was removing tags until the dispute had been resolved in favor of the consensus which is different from the present sitation where no attempt was made to address the issues before removing the tags. NancyHeise ^talk 17:12, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you please address the concerns that this may be skewing the RfC? Would either of my proposal be acceptable? Karanacs (talk) 17:17, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Purpose of tags - is to alert the 5000 Readers that come to the article every day to find out information on the Church. Since the article has so many POV and factual accuracy issues, we have an obligation to alert those Readers about them until the article is fixed - an effort that everyone admits is in progress but not finished. These admissions are even part of the RFC so I don't see how they can skew it. NancyHeise ^talk 17:20, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, per Template:POV The purpose of this group of templates is to attract editors with different viewpoints to edit articles that need additional insight. This template should not be used as a badge of shame. Do not use this template to "warn" readers about the article. . If notifying readers is your sole purpose in adding the tag, then I respectfully request that you remove it as being a violation of the intended usage. Having the tag on only one of the three proposed versions in the RfC definitely has the effect of making one seem even more sub-standard than the others. As there are already admissions at the RfC that all three versions are flawed, may we then add tags to the other two proposed versions? Karanacs (talk) 17:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The other two versions do not exist on the main article page. They are sandbox versions at present. If the RFC results in those versions being chosen, you are more than welcome to add tags and present a list of their problems on the article page. NancyHeise ^talk 17:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

NancyHeise, your battle ground and ownership on the article needs to stop, and if you can't stop, it should be stopped for you. After years of complaints that the former, overly long and poorly sourced version was POV, a shorter version was put in place, and at your insistence, Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Catholic Church was launched-- this time, insisting that you not canvass. This effort to install POV tags-- which you wouldn't accept on your versions-- looks like yet another attempt to derail dispute resolution. I agree with Karanacs that if you want to install POV tags on the current version of the article, they also need to be installed on the older versions contemplated in the RFC, which were resoundingly rejected at mutliple FACs as POV and poorly sourced. By doing this now, in the midst of good-faith RFC, you have prejudiced yet another RFC: this behavior needs to stop. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Sandy, the present RFC explicitly states that there are deep flaws with all three versions. The tags do nothing but alert Readers and editors to the POV and factual accuracy issues listed on the talk page. How do we get help if we don't tag? In addition, A POV DISPUTE EXISTS - fact - thus the article needs a tag. The tagged article is the one that exsists on the main article page. I think that not having the tag makes that version appear to be more legitimate than the other two - one of which was inappropriately eliminated from the page via a straw poll that was deemed inconclusive. I started to the RFC to amend that problem. NancyHeise ^talk 17:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

You have yet again -- exactly as you did with canvassing in the straw poll-- prejudiced and undermined a good faith attempt at dispute resolution in an RFC that you called for and launched. Most clearly, tagging one version in the RFC as POV-- when the other two are resoundingly and long-condemned as POV, while the newer, shorter version is less so-- and then forum shopping to ANI during an RFC, prejudices the outcome. That you don't apparently see this is the highest hubris I have seen yet on this article, and that says a lot. The RFC that you launched is not going in your favor, so you tagged the article POV in the midst of an RFC you called for, for comparing several versions, when the other were long condemned at FAC as POV? This is utterly astounding ... it appears that you are unwilling and unable to let consensus and dispute resolution work on Wiki. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:52, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Bottom line, for unvinvolved administrators: There are three versions of the Catholic Church article up for review at an RfC filed by NancyHeise. One of the versions is the current version of the article, the other two are proposals created by NancyHeise. All three versions face assertions that they do not meet NPOV and may not accurately represent their sources. Nancy just added tags to the current version of the article, and does not want them on her two sandbox versions. This appears, to me, to be an attempt to skew the RfC, yet none of us are willing to participate in an edit-war. What is the appropriate procedure? Karanacs (talk) 17:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The sandbox versions are not the current versions. They not be a NPOV, but they are in her userspace and technically she can have what she likes there. The current version is the one that every person sees, so perhaps it makes sense for that one to be tagged, rather than other versions. If any of the other versions were the current article, they should be tagged as appropriate too. Aiken ♫ 18:01, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Comment While I don't agree with tagging only one version of the article, I just want to point out that the RFC points at a specific version of the article as the "short version", and that version doesn't have tags on it. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:02, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Is there really administrative action called for here? I've seen this dispute going on for weeks and it seems to be like mud wrestling without the dignity. Can't it be kept to the handful of admins who have intervened and choose to get their hands dirty, without clogging up AN/I with what will be an endless stream of text?--Wehwalt (talk) 18:25, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

As SandyGeorgia noted, this looks like forum-shopping by NancyHeise. There is nothing that needs to be done here, not yet at least while the RFC is ongoing. Better let admins like Karanacs & SandyGeorgia who already intervened get on with it. Aiken ♫ 18:57, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Not at all. If UBER and Karanacs are supporting removing valid POV tags via edit-warring, that needs to be stopped. Articles have been to RFC with POV tags on them. The POV tags actually help notifying readers and editors that there is a dispute going on concerning the drastic non-consensus changes wrongly made to the page. I'm not sure how notifying editors to the dispute can possibly be "skewing the RFC", when the whole purpose of an RFC is to attract new editors to comment. I do feel that some seem to be trying to conceal the RFC by giving it minimal publicity and trying to stop others publicising it. As far as the dispute goes, it was set off by UBER's open breach of WP procedure through drastic non-consensus changes made to the article, which weren't stopped at the time. Since then I have proposed numerous compromise suggestions, which have not been taken up by UBERs party - who have remained totally intransigent. Xandar 20:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

"Uber's party" being roughly equivalent to "every other editor who's looked at the article recently", yes? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:13, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Not at all. UBER's party being the group that has driven off most of the other editors on the article with their constant personal attacks on other editors, failure to Assume Good Faith and refusing to edit collegially otr attempt to come to compromise. (Diffs can be provided if necessary.) Xandar 20:20, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The only page that matters, for anyone who's interested, is this one—you know, the one about that RFC you all wanted. 17 people have endorsed Vulcan's and Hesperian's comments about working from the current version. How many people have endorsed your comments? A grand total of two. You and Nancy.UBER ^(talk) 20:29, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Largely because neutral editors and others opposed to you have not yet been properly notified of the RFC's existence, while your team were there on the page at once. And your counting is faulty again anyway. Xandar 20:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Discussion about NPOV concerns should continue on the article talk page. Further discussion here seems irrelevant to me. Sunray (talk) 21:47, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Help would be appreciated

Wehwalt mentioned the handful of admins getting their hands dirty, but in fact it's currently only me. Sarek was working on it, but he took part in the RfC and so can't admin the dispute now, which leaves Sunray and me to work out how to proceed. Sunray's not an admin so if the tools have to be used, it's going to be down to me, and I'm not particularly comfortable with that, given the arms and legs the thing has. Therefore if any other experienced editor, and particularly any other admin, would be willing to help oversee the dispute, that would be most helpful. Sunray and I had been discussing it by e-mail, but I set up a talk page today for us to do that publicly. Anyone willing to help would be most welcome there. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 19:03, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I appreciated your comment on my talk page. However, for various reasons, I think it better that I not get involved as an admin.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:47, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

If we're getting to the stage where we've run out of people willing to deal with this, maybe the next stage would be appropriate? :) Aiken ♫ 19:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it's inevitable that it will end up there, but my hope was that we could at least get through the RfC without further problems. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 20:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I certainly hope that it is not inevitable that this will go to ArbCom. If it is a content-related dispute, mediation would be more appropriate, IMO. Sunray (talk) 21:47, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem was the non-checking of UBEr when he started ignoring all rules. I don't want a lengthy arbcom, which would have to cover everyything that happened since March 9th, but the refusal to compromise by UBER and clan is what has led to these disputes. There are still compromise offers on the table. Xandar 20:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Article should be removed from good article status, the review was recently and it has basically failed, article is disputed and in edit wars and unstable. Off2riorob (talk) 20:37, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• I think that's the responsibility of the reviewer (SilkTork), but any person can probably update the page. Aiken ♫ 21:17, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I've dropped SilkTork a note - I think our GA re-review has basically been overtaken by other events, but he's the lead reviewer so I think he should be the one to make any decision. EyeSerene^talk 08:04, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Struck some of the above - my apologies, I'd got the dates we'd look at the article mixed up. EyeSerene^talk 09:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks EyeSerene, my pointing this out was to try to get editors to realise that instead of this minor point of view issue where someone thinks that some small point in the article is not in his opinion correct, this Good article status is what they all should be working on and now there is to be a lengthy arbcom case taking up even more of quality editors time while the article loses its good status? Off2riorob (talk) 14:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Question about filters.

There are a couple of pages I keep a particularly close eye on and often someone from a 69.151 prefix shows up and adds nonsense to these pages. As the second and third parts of their address change every time they log in, it's not a matter of dealing with a 'single' IP. I could request semi-protection, but A) they (currently) don't show up often enough to warrant it, and B) most of the IPs editing the page are making helpful edits and this would block them out.

As this is the only user editing the pages who uses a 69.151. prefix, is there any way to set a filter to the pages in question that would either block or autorevert any edits coming from this prefix? HalfShadow 18:28, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Rangeblocks would work, assuming a sufficiently narrow rangeblock could be tailored. Rangeblocks are usually only implemented for frequent abuse though, since they run the risk of blocking large numbers of legit users. —ShadowRanger ^(talk|stalk) 18:50, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Sounds like a question for one of our edit filter experts. —DoRD (talk) 18:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Well this is almost a literal list of the IPs he's using. As you can see, they change almost daily, but the first two numbers stay constant. (I'm not editing the page in question, it's just beyond vandalising the pages I'm referring to, that's literally all he edits.)HalfShadow 18:55, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

More appropriate is semiprotecting the articles. I semi'ed Turbo Dogs (your example) for a bit but it seems like they're not actually vandalizing there, so I undid it. What articles do need protecting? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:48, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but that's just it; A good amount of the IP edits are actually helpful. He's not actually showing up that often, so he is manageable; I was just thinking if there was an automated way of cleaning up after him it'd be one fewer thing to do. HalfShadow 19:50, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

If there are articles they're consistently problematic on, semiprotect those. If they're being helpful on other articles, leave them alone.

Unless they are consistently vandalizing in the same pattern, pattern detection with the edit filters is pretty difficult.

IMHO, at least. Someone else may have a better idea. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:10, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

It looks to me like the Extension:AbuseFilter does support an "ip_in_range" pattern ([94] line 381) even though the documentation doesn't seem to mention it. Obvious thing to do is apply it to that group of pages. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 04:41, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

That could work so long as you narrow down the address space. The 64 address space is huge. It's probably much better if you identify the ISP and determine that address range. Shadowjams (talk) 09:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

ranges are 69.151.144.0/20 and 69.151.192.0/19, it's a southwestern bell dsl range in metro houston —Crazytales (talk) 21:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

User Tisqupnaia2010

Tisqupnaia2010 have called me a fascist, racist and a terrorist a several of time now. At first I ignored it, but it's starting to get annoying someone calling me these things in everything he writes to me. He have already been warned that he should not use these word, but keeps doing that. Shmayo (talk) 19:25, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

this edit is hugely inappropriate and the user should be spoken to, but other than that I can't find any diffs, please provide some for us? SGGH ^ping! 19:55, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I've also given a warning regarding their attack in that AfD. Regardless of content dispute, Wikipedia is not a venue to chuck around accusations of fascism. SGGH ^ping! 20:40, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Some of the edit summaries seem pretty harsh, but I did find these posts: [95], [96] and [97]. I wonder if there is something going on here to trigger such hostility though. Didn't look deep enough to check on that, just some quick digging for the terms the OP mentioned. Ravensfire (talk) 21:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Did a quick read through one of the threads the diffs cover [98], and I'm not seeing too much from Shmayo beyond fairly polite disagreement. No idea about other discussions, but just not seeing anything there that Shmayo did wrong. Ravensfire (talk) 21:21, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I've sort of been playing referee at Talk:Tel Skuf, but mediating a conflict with religious/ethnic overtones is not really my thing. There have been some rather nasty remarks there that more or less amount to telling users who aren't from there to go away. The underlying content dispute seems to be about what sect or ethnicity the residents of this village are considered, and I frankly have no idea who is right, which is why I have repeatedly urged them to seek some formal WP:DR, but so far that hasn't happened. I'm bowing out of this one, ethnic feuds make my head hurt. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I've been stumbling around at Talk:Tel Skuf and Talk:Chaldean Christians, but the main issue is at Assyrian people and how that spills over. Fundamentally, User:Tisqupnaia2010 and another user (whose username is a Syriac squiggle) are offended by the very article that subsumes their claimed ethnicity (Chaldean) under the umbrella name of "Assyrian". It's nothing specific that User:Shmayo has said other than, basically, "you're just Assyrians, everyone agrees on that". While calling someone an "Assyrian" doesn't mean anything to most of us, the Chaldeans apparently take great offense at that. That doesn't excuse Tisqupnaia's calling Shmayo a "fascist", but it explains where the vitriol is originating and why you can't find an easily identifiable trigger for the hostility. (Taivo (talk) 22:34, 29 March 2010 (UTC))

Shamyo's basic problem is that he has mistaken the title of Wikipedia's article on the Assyrian, Syriac, and Chaldean groups ("Assyrian people") for actual fact and is applying it beyond just the title of the Wikipedia article. He is using the weak consensus that was built for changing the title of that article, which did not apply to any content or any other articles, to try to force through "Assyrian" as the universal name for the Chaldeans. He will have further problems with other Chaldeans (and he will have little support from non-Chaldean editors) if he persists. (Taivo (talk) 23:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC))

Okay, that seems to sum up the genesis of the hostility toward Shamyo. It doesn't, however, provide reason for the personal attacks. It seems that what needs addressing is Shamyo's improper labelling of editors ethnicity by means of a carefully worded note to their talkpage (which can then be raised to the level of a warning if continued, because deliberately doing so can only be to irritate the other party), and a straight forward level3 warning to Tisqupnaia2010 to desist from personal attacks. I am a little time constrained so cannot do it now, but will do so later if no-one else has. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:51, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I got an apology to me (?!) on my talk, and advised Tq2010 to apologise to Shamyo. I then noted that he has apologies to other users which suggests he has behaved like this to more than one person. SGGH ^ping! 13:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

A couple of days ago there was a very heated exchange between Tq and Shmayo at Talk:Tel Skuf or Talk:Chaldean Christians that I deleted. My edit summary told them to both shut up with the ethnic slurs. Tq's apology to me was because of that exchange (even though I was not part of the exchange). While Tq's "facsist" comments directed at Shmayo are inappropriate and the warning is justified, I haven't seen him go beyond his comments to Shmayo at this time. I can't vouch for his past. However, the Assyrian Fascism article that he created also needs to be deleted. (Taivo (talk) 13:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC))

Legal Threat?

Resolved

 – Not deemed to be a legal threat Excirial ^{(Contact me,Contribs)} 21:50, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

In this edit Bsw123 seems to make a legal threat towards editor Off2riorob. BSW123 was already at a level 4 warning and this edit caused an AIAV report, but it is always better to create to many reports, then having to little of them. Excirial ^{(Contact me,Contribs)} 21:34, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't see that as a legal threat in any way. Can you please expand on your thinking? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any legal threat. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 21:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't see a legal threat, I dont know what results filters suggest, the editor has a last warning from me for inserting uncited synth content in the article.. this is the content ..In spite of her moral conservatism, Widdecombe currently writes a weekly column for the Daily Express, which is owned by a publisher of pornography, Richard Desmond.http://express.co.uk/search/Ann%20Widdecombe/1/created/40 the citation supports the fact that she writes a column for the express the rest is opinionated uncited synth. Off2riorob (talk) 21:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I guess i am a little bit to jumpy today. "I will be reporting you for abuse of Wikipedia and seeking help in resolving this issue." sounded a tad like a legal threat, so i decided to just report it as such. If Off2riorob doesn't perceive it as one, ill just mark the case as resolved. Excirial ^{(Contact me,Contribs)} 21:50, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

It's apparent there is no threat of any kind there. I have tried to engage Off2riorob through his/her edit warring but he/she has refused to engage. I have now reported that user on the Administrators' Noticeboard for edit warring.Bsw123 (talk) 21:59, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Which I've marked as no violation, and I suggest you take note of what I wrote there. To give an idea of why your repeated additions are synthesis and personal opinion, consider this similar - but equally invalid - sentence: "Despite being a member of a white supremacist organisation, person X still lives in America, where Barack Obama is President". Does that make it clearer? Black Kite 22:28, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's quite dissimilar in format to the statement I contributed (not least in that "still living in a country" is very different from opting to undertake (additional) work for a publisher of pronography) I assume then that the following would be acceptable: "Anne Widdecombe writes a column for the Daily Express, which is owned by a publisher of pornography"; i.e. acceptable if the introductory "Despite her moral conservatism" is omitted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsw123 (talk • contribs) 22:35, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

No, because you're still synthesising a charge of hypocrisy against Widdecombe based on two unrelated facts. Try this hypothetical one - "Despite being the owner of Apple, Steve Jobs is known to use a Windows PC" - the two unrelated facts synthesising an accusation that Jobs doesn't believe his own company's computers are as good as a PC. WP:SYNTH is quite clear on this issue. Black Kite 22:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I bet he loves Windows 7 :p --Fred the Oyster (talk) 22:46, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Wow, how grown up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsw123 (talk • contribs) 22:50, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional --Fred the Oyster (talk) 23:37, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

For future reference, those sort of 'I'm going to report you' threats happen all the time, usually from editors somewhat unfamiliar with policy who think there's some sort of central administrative body who rules on editing disputes and/or hands out penalties for ill behaviour Nil Einne (talk) 22:21, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Armenia-Azerbaijan, Yeghishe Arakyal Monastery, Amaras Monastery

Please note that a person has been edit warring on the above mentioned articles, POV-ing them by adding the Azerbaijani names of Armenian monasteries. He has been edit warring for weeks now, and the user User:Quzeyli also sockpuppets using an IP, I request banning the individual and protecting the articles. Stepanakertsi (talk) 00:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Articles are protected as there is an edit war going on over content. One week semi-protect for both. SGGH ^ping! 11:07, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Result: new problematic (see my posts on the respective talk pages: [99], [100], [101] and [102]) reverts [103] and [104] by Quzeyli... Sardur (talk) 20:18, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Ruby Gloom Book War

I created the Books section on the Ruby Gloom article but it seems 142.177.43.159 she just don't like the books section because she keeps removing them. And its really starting to annoy the living crap out of me. When she had the account User:Queen kitten She removed the same freaking section and it was the BOOK section AGAIN.

If I was to remove something from the Care Bears or Rescue Heroes articles She would go off her head. And act like she did nothing wrong like SHE IS THE VICTIM....

I am really really getting tired of finding out that she keeps removing the books. Black Rose (talk) 01:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Try talking to them about this. If all else fails, goe to WP:Dispute Resolution. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 03:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Behavior of Breein1007 making fun of user who cant speak english well

There is this user Ani medjool, he cant speak English very good. So this Breein1007 (talk · contribs), not only follows him around and reverts all his edits, but also makes posts at talkpages making fun of Ani medjools english: [105] [106] [107] I'm sure there are many more posts by Breein1007 just like these, but these were all I could find right now.

The edits are at Arab-Israel articles which I think some sort of general sanction apply, and I'm sure this is unacceptable behaviour. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 01:21, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Please notify the user first. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 01:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, we are a broad church, and should be tolerant of different cultures; however, this is the English language Wikipedia, and could reasonably expect a basic level of communication in the English language; in this case, I don't see any "making fun", and I don't see any attempt to reach out to help this editor. That's unhelpful, but it's not an admin issue. Please try to talk to both parties rather than bring it here. Rodhullandemu 01:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

(ec) If Breein1007 is reverting edits because Ani medjool's command of English is not sufficient to provide high-quality English text, that's one thing, and legitimate (although the nice thing to do would be to fix the edits to bring them up to snuff), but I agree that making fun of Ani medjool's writing on talk pages by using pidgin English is uncivil and uncollegial, and he or she should knock it off. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:37, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

No, he's clearly mimicking a bad english writing style to mock the user. He should be blocked given his other recent trolling. This has nothing to do with the other user being able to communicate and has everything to do with this user following him around mocking him.--Crossmr (talk) 01:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

We have to apply some good faith when it comes other user's command of the English language. Afterall, we put up with American English. raseaC^{talk to me} 01:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

@Rodhullandemu - Here is a randomly selected talk page comment by Breein1007:

"My knowledge of Arabic doesn't make me anything close to an etymologist. :) Anyway, based on the etymology, wouldn't it be appropriate to have the French word as well? I don't know what the word is, otherwise I'd put it in myself." [108].

Given that is their normal way of writing, this is making fun:

How know we that they no speek arab? It not for us to make guess like this because we no have reliable source to inform about this. So then we must to assume yes they speek arab.

This is making fun:

You" no make any "sense" when you post "your" comment like these one.

This is making fun:

But I only agree with you in you say that we need article on Israel steal everything in their "culture", "cuisine", "people", "language", "weather", etc! You bring up idea here so why I do not able to support? If you no want people agree with you then please no bring up ideas in wrong place.

They should stop. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I have to admit to a certain temptation to make fun of this whole conflict, as it mostly about middle eastern food, not any of the more relevant issues in the complex relationship between Israel and it's neighbors. (indeed there is already an entry at WP:LAME regarding hummus) Of all the ridiculous nationalistic arguments we have on Wikipedia, the ones about whose culture "owns" which foods are among the most ridiculous. That being said, clearly Breein is being deliberately nasty and should cut it out. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:06, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree, this is particularly unclassy move, and one that goes against our general policies on user interaction and the proscriptions of the ArbCom I/P sanctions. Unomi (talk) 06:02, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I notice that the reporting user failed to notify, as required, the user they reported, but invited the third party to comment. Notification now done. —DoRD (talk) 02:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to assume good faith and say that he is simplifying his words in order not to use big words that will confuse the other user. And a certain amount of frustration has to be allowed for (if the misspelling "speek" was intentional). I would suggest that cautioning the user would be sufficient. Blocks are not for punishment, after all.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

No, he's clearly being scornful about the other editor's poor English skills. However, I agree that a warning would be sufficient if he cuts it out from now on. Edit: so I've done that, marked this resolved.Black Kite 07:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I have a slightly different take on this situation, having fixed some of Ani Medjools previous edits, and taking a closer look at his contributions aftwerwards. Since I think this requries admin acdtion as well, I'm unmarking as resolved. Feel free to re-close it if you think no further action is needed.

I agree that Breein 1007 is likely mocking Ani Medjood, and that this needs to stop. But what is being missed is that more than likely, Ani Medjool is not a new user, and is only pretending to have poor English skills.

He is using an exaggerated form of what he imagines a non-native speaker would use, but such a charade is difficult to keep up, and he slips up here and there, enough for the facade to be transparent. For example, perhaps the clearest, "signature" of AM's edits is improper use of the verb "To be", incorrectly writing things like "They all be by editor" instead of "they all are by ..." , or "this be disruptive edit" instead of "This is ...". but elsewhere, he lapses , and shows that he does do know the proper usage, as in here: [109] - "Israel is..", "Za'atar is not native".

Other examples include improper spelling of "Photo" - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMarkook&action=historysubmit&diff=351662249&oldid=292617019 - but here [110], which is earlier, he correctly spells it, consistently, several times, as well as here:[111]

Looking into AM's editing history, there are curious inconsistencies, and ample evidnce that this is not a new account which is quite capable of writing proper English. Consider his 3rd article edit, with the perfectly correct edit summary "added sourced information about adoption of arab food by Israel", or even his very first: "add more sourced information ..." - but a few weeks later, he has suddenly "forgotten" how to use the past tense: [112] -"this is source information" but still knows how to properly use "to be" - "the proof is shown" - (sadly, even this knowledge was lost a few weeks later :()

His first edit to wikipedia, BTW, includes a perfectly formatted "cite news" template, and is written in grammatically correct English: "Even in the United States, a country traditionally considered an ally of Israel, news media like the Santa Fe New Mexican state that..." His second edit is not just a revert, but one made with an edit summary that uses the uniquely Wikipedia-ish shorthand of "rv" for a "revert"

"Early" in his WP editing carrer, he knew how to properly address other users, even correctly embedding thier user name in edit summaries with the User: designation, as in here, but later, there was a curios regression to calling and addressing users as "the breein user" [113]

or consider this edit, (by an IP which is clearly the same user, as this edit shows) : "i did not vandalize. please do not accuse me of such things. vandalism is when destruction or damage is done under false pretense. i did not destroy or damage your page under false presence. other users have now notified you of your violation of the revert rule, so why do you not call their action vandalism? do you have something against me and my edits? " - is this someone with poor English skills? It is obvious that if AM is capable of producing the previous, that he is only pretending when he write something like "Breen user, please stop personal attack of me by patronize me bad english, as this be disruptive edit too. This be discuss of article, not "make fun of Ani Medjools english". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tzu Zha Men (talk • contribs) 20:37, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, you convinced me, and you've made a record incase anyone holds that warning against B1007. Many thanks for your analysis. That being said, I would suggest we reclose.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:06, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

ducky socks

Resolved

Are these obvious enough for anyone or do we need an SPI?

• 70.83.96.235 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Babkockdood (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Matgam1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

For quite some time there has been a user or a couple users who have been trying to turn PlayStation Portable homebrew into a fanboy site rather than an encyclopedic article with excessive detail on firmwares and no sources. Matgam1 first added it then apparently got logged out and edited from the IP. After being reverted, the ip tried to insert it again. Couple days later the ip is back and after a few edits a couple minutes later the changes are being made from babkockdood. I'm torn between calling them ducky and filing an SPI just to make sure there aren't any other related accounts waiting to repeat the edits.--Crossmr (talk) 01:34, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

It looks to me like the recent edits are enough to warrant page protection, regardless of the status of those accounts. rʨanaɢ (talk) 01:49, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Its actually been quite awhile since anyone has tried to push that info back onto the page, about a year and a half. Not sure what's prompted the latest go at it. But if you think it warrants protection go ahead, probably if the socks are blocked it would have the same effect.--Crossmr (talk) 02:37, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

SPI just in case anyone thinks its necessary.--Crossmr (talk) 02:43, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• note, I brought this back. The clerk has declined it and gives some blocking instructions. if an admin could do that, that would be great.--Crossmr (talk) 11:41, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Two gone, IP gone for one month with acc blocked. SGGH ^ping! 11:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks!--Crossmr (talk) 13:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Draža Mihailović article

Resolved

 – All edit-warriors blocked.  Sandstein  17:24, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I appear to be completely unable to keep sourced information in the Draža Mihailović article. A group of Serbian users (namely User:BoDu and User:FkpCascais) got together and edited-out everything they did not like about the article [114], afterwards simply edit-warring until their version remains on top. No matter how many sources I bring forth, no matter what I do on the talkpage, there is no way to convince these users to stop with the POV vandalism and leave the sources alone. I've also come under personal attack. [115][116] I recently finally decided to report User:FkpCascais for this [117], he has been blocked for a week but is still demanding that I restore his edit - I have no doubt he will resume as soon as he is able. User:BoDu is still here however, and has once again begun edit-warring the disruptive edit into the article. [118]

I am talking about this edit. The text has been radicalized to the extreme. Not only are the edits contrary to sources, not only do they delete sourced information, they also actually alter quoted historical documents, discriminate against professional scholarly sources on the basis of ethnicity and ethnic sentiment, destroy the neutrality of the text by incorrectly utilizing ideological labels in a childish POV manner, and generally ruin the quality of the text with appalling grammar and syntax. Nothing helps, it honestly seems like there is no way to keep the sources in there. I'm frankly at a loss. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 14:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Brittanica claims that this issue is disputed. Serious historians such as Walter Roberts, Matteo Milazzo, Lucien Karchmar, Simon Trew, Heather Williams etc, claim that Mihailovic was a resistance fighter until the end of World War II. Therefore, it is clear that Wikipedia must not claim that Mihailovic was a quisling. BoDu (talk) 14:53, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The above is simply not true. :P None of these authors actually oppose the ones deleted from the article, the user is merely playing word games around the term "resistance leader". Draža Mihailović was in fact a resistance leader that collaborated with the Axis. Britannica is a misquoted tertiary source and refers to the legitimacy of post-war events. This is not at a dispute at all, but an attempt to edit out information personally disliked by the user. It may be useful to note that this matter had been brought up before, and that in blocking User:FkpCascais, Black Kite specifically listed this edit as one of the prime causes of the block, citing "exceedingly obvious" disruption. [119]

In either case sourced information is being removed for weeks now. Admin attention is sorely needed. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 15:12, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Enough. There is a good faith content dispute there. This is not the forum, though certainly an admin may want to keep an eye on the article.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:15, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

No, there is actually no content dispute at all. The matter was plainly not even investigated properly, and the silly listing of obviously fake sources above has unbelievably managed to end all hope of assistance. The matter is very, very simple. Two users do not personally like the sourced information so they keep removing it and edit-warring over it without any listed references whatsoever. This is the most ridiculously obvious case of sources removal, yet there seems to be no alternative but to try and edit-war the sources back.

Unbelievable, anyone out there can remove five scholarly university publications and the text they support if he's just willing to edit-war enough about it. Good to know, next time I want to force an alteration into an article, I won't be so stupid as to spend weeks on research. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 15:33, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

1) A few months ago I read several works on an issue, I did the research, I explored the position of the scientific community. It lasted a few weeks. 2) I posted the information in the article, listing five scholarly university publications as sources. 3) Two users arrived and removed it, then edit-warred to keep the information out. 4) I reported the matter on WP:ANI, nobody bothers with it, as we can all see.
How do I enter sourced information in Balkans articles of enWiki? Why do I even bother with sources and policies? What is the point of listing references in articles? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 15:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The content removals look like fairly blatant POV edit warring to me. I've blocked BoDu for 24 hours for WP:3RR and given them formal notification of WP:DIGWUREN. As the two edit-warriors are both now blocked there seems to be little point in protecting the article as well, but this can certainly be considered if disruption resumes when the blocks expire. Hope this helps. EyeSerene^talk 16:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Concur. I've now also blocked DIREKTOR, who has made an additional revert subsequent to your block of BoDu, thus breaking WP:3RR. I am also marking this as resolved given that all involved editors are now blocked.  Sandstein  17:24, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Uff, maybe I should have protected the article. You can't win some days; I assumed he realised he was right on the edge of 3RR which was why he came here... EyeSerene^talk 20:32, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

droop speed control

Resolved

Revision history of Utility frequency

(cur) (prev) 15:27, 30 March 2010 Wtshymanski (talk | contribs) (26,438 bytes) (Please stop. This is just wrong and irrelevant. Undid revision 352963354 by Wdl1961 (talk)) (undo)

pls have some degreed electrical engheadline Subject/headline preview: (→droop speed control: new sectionrs stop this Wdl1961 (talk) 15:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I think you mean this edit to Utility frequency. Please discuss this on the article talk page or with Wtshymanski himself (note, copy and pasting the history is not discussion) before you make an ANI report. Also take care to mind the three revert rule, and advise the people you discuss in this thread of its presence. I have done so for you this time. SGGH ^ping! 15:51, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

And also, making requests in non-moon language helps other editors who don't speak moon language. Syrthiss (talk) 15:52, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I have left the following message with the other user:

Please be aware of an ANI thread another user raised regarding your edits to Utility frequency. It appears to be a content dispute at the moment with no need for admin attention, but if you could explain for the user who raised the thread (either on their page or the article talk) why you have made these changes it would be helpful. Also please take care to remember the three revert rule which applies to all edits other than those reverting obvious vandalism. Happy editing.

This should suffice, please try to engage them in discussion before you make an ANI report. If there are no further issues this can be closed. SGGH ^ping! 15:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

this has been discussed before. it is deletion of facts that makes wiki unreliable .moonlanguage there aint nothing there.Wdl1961 (talk) 16:04, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Please do not copy/paste this into the article's talk page again as it serves no purpose there. Thanks —DoRD (talk) 16:23, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I found a clearer source on "droop control" which may clear up the problem, from the PJM Interconnection online training materials for their power system operators. It's now linked on Talk:Utility frequency. --John Nagle (talk) 20:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Repeated POV-pushing by RevSpitz

RevSpitz has engaged in a pattern of POV-pushing edits despite numerous warnings. Most recent example is this one. Groupthink (talk) 16:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Two edits in the last three months hardly constitute "a pattern". No admin intervention appears necessary for an account that is barely active. caknuck _° needs to be running more often 00:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Personal Attacks

BlackJack here has unleashed a torrent of abuse at me which includes numerous personal attacks, can he please be blocked. --88.111.55.202 (talk) 18:26, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

His comments seem pretty fair to be honest. raseaC^{talk to me} 18:31, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Could you explain why calling somebody a cretin, coward and scum is fair? --88.111.55.202 (talk) 18:35, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

In answer to someone who has conducted via several IP addresses a campaign of invective, including numerous personal attacks, that is designed to provoke; and given that you have called me "bitter, twisted" and a "compulsive liar", it is hardly surprising that I have reacted as I did. By the way, RaseaC, I apologise for losing my temper but being called a liar is extreme provocation.

I would also like to draw admin's attention to this person (88.111.55.202) launching an edit war in Marylebone Cricket Club and Variations in first-class cricket statistics by removing source information and ignoring a reasonable request to discuss the proposed changes on the talk pages first. He carried on a similar edit war yesterday on an AfD page by persistently reverting to an irrelevant point. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 18:41, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

In every conversation I've had with you, you've lied time and again therefore calling you a compulsive liar is a pretty fair description. Being called scum is also extremely provocation but did I start chucking insults at you? The external links I've removed are spam that were added by the site's owners, the website is entirely unreliable. I would like to draw an admin's attention to the fact BlackJack was indefinitely blocked until 12 days ago, having been given a second chance any normal person would be on their best behaviour not to repeat the experience. --88.111.55.202 (talk) 18:55, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

88.111.55.202 is just the latest in a long line of dynamic addresses used by this person to attack me over some apparent grievance of which I have no knowledge. Yesterday he was using 88.111.63.26 to wage an edit war in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Blackmore. Other IPs he has used include:

• 88.111.48.107
• 88.111.39.197
• 88.111.60.218
• 85.210.127.158
• 85.210.83.167
• 88.109.8.46
• 88.110.56.81
• 85.210.135.210

I believe he has a WP account but he will not use that when he is acting as a vandal. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 18:58, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

As for the reliability of the website in question, I suggest that members of WP:CRIC decide on that, which is why I requested a discussion on the article's talk page. Since no one in WP:CRIC has objected to the site previously, I see no reason why it should suddenly be a problem now. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 19:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Where did this discussion take place? The only discussions on WT:CRIC I can find are all uncertain [120], quite negative [121] and very negative [122] about the source. --88.111.55.202 (talk) 19:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh dear, oh dear. The second one was way back in 2007 and was clearly a misunderstanding about copyright. The first was an honest question by SGGH. The third was a routine piece of trolling by User:Richard Daft. There has not been a formal discussion: I said that no one in WP:CRIC (except a known troll) has objected to the site being used and some have even quoted it in their edits. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 19:37, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

As for him "not chucking insults at me", how about this one? ----Jack | ^{talk page} 19:12, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

So accusing three well-respected WP:CRIC members of being sockpuppets without any evidence are the actions of a fair and reasonable person? --88.111.55.202 (talk) 19:35, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

That was a mistake as I thought one of them was you, having been given incorrect information by a well-meaning colleague. I have apologised to all three people and two of them have graciously accepted while the third is not active today. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 19:41, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I would like to make a formal complaint about the activities of the person currently active as 88.111.63.26. He has previously been warned by admins on this page and WP:AN and he has alienated just about every member of WP:CRIC by his vindictive conduct. I recoomend a 24-hour block of the current IP and the establishment of a precedent to block any IP he uses in future. He is using the site to wage a war but he will not admit his reasons. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 19:25, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

You need to take a step back mate, you've alienated just as many members of WP:CRIC as I have. How exactly do my actions merit a blocking? --88.111.55.202 (talk) 19:35, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay, WP:ANI is no place to continue a dispute, it is where people go to have problems taken care of. I advise both users to disengage, step back and breathe. Stop posting on each others talk pages, and stop posting here. An uninvolved administrator (which I am happy to state I am not) will come along and see if there is anything to be acted upon. You could both end up defending your own position so strongly that you end up with admin attention on you even if you are the victimised party. My two cents. SGGH ^ping! 19:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I could not agree more. I will withdraw and I have nothing further to say. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 19:44, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Moved from archive, unresolved. --88.111.36.3 (talk) 17:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm withdrawing from this one now, because I have become too involved to remain objective since my investigations so far have led me too far down the road to believing that the two above IP addresses are involved (and should be added to, IMO) Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Richard Daft. I hand the baton to the next admin who wishes to take a more objective approach than I could now manage. My apologies. SGGH ^ping! 18:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

User page redirected to article space

I'm not sure what the correct venue for this is, so I'm asking here (WP:UAA seems to be for abusive usernames, which this isn't). A user (Docjudith (talk · contribs)) appears to have moved their page to article-space (at David Whiffen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)). Verifiability of the article-space page aside, it makes it difficult to get ahold of this person, as they'll only receive "you have a new message" notices for changes to their old talk page. I'm assuming they've been acting in good faith, but is the page supposed to be there, and if not, how would they be appropriately encouraged to perform a proper user-space name change?

(ANI thread notification is here, though I have no idea if they'll see it, per above.) --Christopher Thomas (talk) 19:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. --Smashville^talk 19:26, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 19:32, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

In future you can simply blank the userpage and boldly move the talk page back where it belongs. –xeno^talk 19:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

AnonMoos -language (or: things are heating up in the I/P-area again)

What is acceptable language on Wikipedia?

AnonMoos (talk · contribs) presently insists on the right to call Egyptian Muslim scholar Yusuf al-Qaradawi for "that asshole" and a "bloodthirsty hatemongering racist", is this ok?

User:Tiamut and myself have tried to get him/her to retract his words here. We have also discussed it here. However, two other editors, Breein1007 (talk · contribs) and No More Mr Nice Guy (talk · contribs) seem to agree with AnonMoos.

If this is accepted to stand, does that mean that in the future any editor on Wikipedia can write: "as my considered honest opinion, sincerely arrived at after intellectual deliberations and the consideration of various facts over a number of years -- that Israeli leader <fill in name here> is a bloodthirsty hatemongering racist"? (see: [123]) --and not be blocked? ---Cheers, Huldra (talk) 19:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

My only contribution to this issue was to point out to Tiamut and Huldra that obviously AnonMoos does not agree with their reading of BLP and that posting about it repeatedly on the talk page is not going to solve the problem. Huldra apparently thinks she's ethically bound to post something bad about an Israeli now. Go figure. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. Calling living persons names like that, also repeated here March 28, is an unambiguous violation of WP:BLP. I am blocking AnonMoos for 48 hours in enforcement of that policy and am also warning him about possible WP:ARBPIA sanctions. I will redact, also as a policy enforcement measure, the current versions of the talk pages concerned. As to Huldra, you are getting very close to violating WP:BLP and WP:POINT yourself with your reply cited by No More Mr Nice Guy above, and I strongly suggest you remove it soon.  Sandstein  20:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the reaction. I was trying (after rather long arguments, both from Tiamut and myself) to get AnonMoos to see what kind of atmosphere their language could create, it was meant as a hypothetical situation. But in any case; I have redacted it. And I am relieved that this language is not found acceptable: it should´t be. Thanks, Huldra (talk) 21:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Having just read the guy's own words in his article, AnonMoos' assessment of the guy is not unjustified. He's progressive in many ways, but stained with hatred of Israel. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:52, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Another sock of User:Roman888

Hi there, could someone please block User:BastilaShan987? Their sole contribution has been to create Scandals in the Malaysian Armed Forces, which is a recreation of Malaysian Military Scandals, deleted as a copyright violation (now existing as a protected redirect). The user is undoubtedly a sock of prolific copyright violator and sockfarmer User:Roman888 so I ask for the user to be blocked as well. Cheers --Mkativerata (talk) 20:02, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Gone, however made threat to return again (and again). I suggest a range block in consultation with SPI or whomever is appropriate. SGGH ^ping! 21:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for that. He's already been through SPI once where it was determined a rangeblock wouldn't be feasible for him. So just going to have to keep up the chase! --Mkativerata (talk) 22:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Block stats, if such a thing was important. SGGH ^ping! 22:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

WikiRecontributer47

I've recently nominated an article by this individual (under his former username, User:Alexking321, which was changed this morning at his request) for AfD, so I'm already involved and probably not the best person to deal with this. I'm just concerned (and puzzled) by recent events, such as [124] this one, where he gives another editor a final warning (as a first warning, and for what I'm not precisely sure), and [125], where he adds a spurious semi-protection template to an article. Essentially, this individual has created two articles, Chana Shapiro and Ariel Israel Zeckler, and seems to feel he owns them. I've nominated the first at AfD. Will someone uninvolved have a look at this editor's brief history and do whatever seems necessary? It might just be some friendly guidance that's required, but the pattern of edits and the lack of communication concerns me. Accounting4Taste:talk 20:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I erred a bit -- it seems as though he contributed two more articles, one of which was deleted, and has a 12-hour block in his log that I forgot to mention. The ownership issue still applies, though. Accounting4Taste:talk 20:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I Have an issue with the username change, which I have just flagged up on the Talk page of the admin who did the change Nihonjoe (see here) - in summary a 'new' user called Alexking321 was crated 1 min after the user change and has been editing articles that the original user edited. Codf1977 (talk) 20:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can see, this has nothing to do with a name change specifically. If he's abusing multiple accounts, I see no problem with blocking both accounts. Otherwise, there's nothing for me to do here. The username change was handled entirely appropriately. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:26, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the way the change of user name request was handeled was correct - my issue is with the underlying reason for his/her request in the first place. Sorry if my comment was misleading in anyway. Codf1977 (talk) 21:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Clearly this is someone who has figured out how to game the system in order to avoid scrutiny. I've been seeing this more and more lately... an SPA account will pop up, make some edits, create some junk articles, request a rename... it's all just smoke and mirrors. It's pretty unlikely that someone else would randomly create another account named Alexking321. Both accounts should be blocked, Alexking permanently and the other one until he promises to stick to one account and stop creating promotional articles about non-notable people. Burpelson AFB (talk) 00:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

They're not adverse to blatant copyright violation either File:Anne-Marie-Hutchinson.jpg --Fred the Oyster (talk) 00:29, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Privacy-invading troll User:Reportinprivacyviolation returns...

Resolved

 – -- user blocked. --Rrburke^ekrubrR 21:52, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

as Privacyproblemsbydavidtroll (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). --Rrburke^ekrubrR 21:51, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive mass nominations at AfD

BrownHairedGirl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The above user has been repeatedly mass nominating bus route articles at AfD, despite calls from various users to take part in a centralised discussion already taking place. Since this user is an admin, she obviously feels she is above logical discussion and prefers to act in a disruptive manner, ignoring everyone else on WP.

There is a discussion ongoing at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_London_Transport#London_bus_route_articles, and has been for about a week now on how to handle non notable bus route articles, and the general consensus is just to redirect them. Currently there are several users going through each article individually and attempting to source where appropriate, and if the route is just not notable, make the redirect. This user is ignoring what is currently going on and has set upon her on mission to eradicate every bus route article from the face of the earth.

What do I hope to achieve from this thread? An admin with an ounce of common sense should step in and close all these discussions, pointing the user to the ongoing discussion linked above, and telling her to stop being disruptive. Thanks for taking the time to read this. Jeni ^(talk) 00:13, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Note, the admin in question has now resorted to calling me a troll.[126] Is this really the example admins should be setting? Jeni ^(talk) 00:25, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

• No action is warranted here. There is no reason to assume these nominations are not in good faith. It is quite clear from the nomination statements that the nominator has followed WP:BEFORE in a genuine effort to not nominate the routes that are notable. Indeed, when one looks at this raft of unsourced, unverified tracts of original research, it is clear that the nominations are quite proper. The community at large decides on the notability of articles, not individual wikiprojects.--Mkativerata (talk) 00:22, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually I think the best course of action would be for BHG to stop nominating articles for now, but the ones already open should be left as they are, as people have commented on them. Consensus may well be different to that on the bus talk page, and the talk page discussion does not trump the policies of WP:V and WP:NOR which are the main concerns - lack of sources to assert notability, and original research.

I think you should tone down the hyperbole a bit though, Jeni. Saying things like "[This user [...] has set upon her on mission to eradicate every bus route article from the face of the earth" helps nothing. Aiken ♫ 00:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh dear, I wondered how long it would take Jeni to try this.

Firstly, I am not on a mission to "eradicate every bus route article"; I have sought community consensus on deleting some of the most egregiously non-notable ones. Most of the articles I have nominated abysmally fail all wikipedia's notability standards, but rather than comment on content, Jeni has set out to simply derail the consensus-building process at AFD by disruptively posting attacks on me which have nothing to do with the articles under discussion.

I have since found that Jeni and a few other editors interested in buses have been using set of notability criteria (at Wikipedia:UKBRQDRIVE#What_qualifies_as_a_route_notable_for_an_article.3F_ which take no account of established Wikipedia inclusion guidelines such as WP:GNG and WP:INDISCRIMINATE.

It appears that I have inadvertently stepped into a walled garden, which is why evidence of the utter non-notability of most of the articles I have nominated for deletion is being met with diversionary accusations of misconduct.

Please can we just use AFD for its normal purpose of discussing the notability or otherwise of the articles concerned? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:34, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

BTW, Jeni says "The above user has been repeatedly mass nominating bus route articles at AfD, despite calls from various users to take part in a centralised discussion already taking place. Since this user is an admin, she obviously feels she is above logical discussion and prefers to act in a disruptive manner, ignoring everyone else on WP"

Actually, I have repeatedly asked Jeni to provide some evidence of the notability of articles whose deletion she opposes, and have consistently been met with abusive refusals to do so. I invite anyone interested to read the AFD discussions and make up their own minds on who is putting themselves above logical discussion.

Oh, and for the record, I finished processing my list of bus route articles to scrutinise. We'll see what the outcome is of open AFD discussions on these articles, and then I will be happy to discuss with the bus projects how to move forward. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I would say that Jeni's !votes and lack of AGF are bordered on disruptive.--Crossmr (talk) 00:48, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

• I looked into one of these cases in detail and found that the supposed lack of notability was false - a simple book search turned up numerous references, as one would expect for this famous form of transportation. This and other aspects of the matter indicate that the deliberations mandated by our deletion policy are not being followed. As the volume of nominations is already causing editors to give up in disgust, so that proper consideration cannot be given to the topics, these nominations seem quite disruptive. It may also be that nationalism comes into this - I seem to recall BHG and Jeni going at it over the naming of motorway articles and the animus generated by this may be spilling over into other transportation articles. Colonel Warden (talk) 00:50, 31 March 2010 (UTC)