Talk:Wilhelm Keitel

Wilhelm Keitel has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: October 31, 2019. (Reviewed version).

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A fact from Wilhelm Keitel appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 21 December 2019 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Wilhelm Keitel was promoted to Chief of the Armed Forces High Command because of his craven willingness to function as Adolf Hitler's mouthpiece?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2019/December. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Wilhelm Keitel.

Wikipedia

A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on September 22, 2020.

Moved here

Some believe the hanging violated the rules of the Geneva conventions for how to treat Prisoners of War. There needs to be more detail here if it is to be included. Roadrunner 21:05, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Personal life / iron cross

I'm looking to ref his personal life and his awards or delete them if they fail WP:V. They are the only part of the article currently failing WP:V Any ideas? Szzuk (talk) 12:55, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Szzuk: I'm not able to find anything either; should probably be removed. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:32, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I removed it. I've referenced everything else that was outstanding. Is this anywhere near good article? Szzuk (talk) 19:08, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedit

@K.e.coffman:, @Szzuk: are you looking to take this to GA? If so, I can comment anything that needs changing, if you would like. Regards, Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 09:59, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Before:Keitel was born in the village of Helmscherode near Gandersheim in the Duchy of Brunswick, the eldest son of Carl Keitel (1854–1934), a middle-class landowner, and his wife Apollonia Vissering (1855–1888). His plan to take over his family's estates after completing his education at a gymnasium foundered on his father's resistance.

After:Keitel was born in the village of Helmscherode near Gandersheim in the Duchy of Brunswick, Germany. The eldest son of Carl Keitel (1854–1934), a middle-class landowner, and his wife Apollonia Vissering (1855–1888), he planned to take over his family's estates after completing his education at a gymnasium but this foundered on his father's resistance.

Any comments on this change? I think it reads better, but I may have the changed the meaning a little. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 10:34, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

'In the autumn of 1932, he suffered a heart attack.[6] Shortly after his recovery, in October 1933, Keitel was appointed as deputy commander of the 3rd Infantry Division; in 1934, he was given command of the 22nd Infantry Division at Bremen.'

I presume the recovery was in October 1933? Please clarify that this was the time of recovery and I will be happy to change it to sound better. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 10:51, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The changes you've made are good. Thank you. I only have phone access until next week and will check sources then. Szzuk (talk) 11:17, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

'a 1939 application for membership was discovered in the archives' what archives? Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:08, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

'As Hitler related after the explosion' what does related mean? clarification needed. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:11, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The end of the 'Role in the Holocaust' section becomes a bit unfocused. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:24, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have the source, but I think this needs some clarification: 'Keitel's body, as those of the other nine executed men and the corpse of Hermann Göring, was cremated at Ostfriedhof (Munich) and the ashes were scattered in the river Isar.' Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:34, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedit all Done, any questions, or any more requests, please do contact me. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:35, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Section "Role in the Holocaust"

Preserving here by providing this link: [1]. My rationale was that the content is somewhat tangential; Keitel committed plenty of this own crimes, directly, and the article should reflect those instead. --K.e.coffman (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The last couple of sentences, perhaps, but the rest is about him and should remain. (Hohum ^@) 19:34, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I restored a shortened version, focusing (as it seems was the Browning's intent) on the invasion of Poland: [2]. The version I originally removed was confusing as it talked about "systematic genocide" (in 1939), which was not the case. The genocide of the Jews started with the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. --K.e.coffman (talk) 20:02, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Craven Willingness"

Why is the phrase "craven willingness", a clear opinion on someone's character (craven = cowardly), allowed in an encyclopedic article? To make it factual, it seems to me it should be changed to "considered to be craven willingness... ... by X" where X is the holder of that opinion. This is appearing on the Wikipedia front page as a "Did you know..." fact. Look, I'm no fan of Nazis either, but let's keep the distinction between facts and opinions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:6000:CDC8:8000:6C82:8F98:A732:9485 (talk) 15:20, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Wilhelm Keitel/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Fiamh (talk · contribs) 06:41, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()

3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()

Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

What makes Traces of War an RS?
- Removed as these details were not significant. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Can we get a page number on ref #17 (Burleigh) for verifiability, or cut it if it's in the other ref?
- Removed as duplicate. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not related to GA criteria but one minor quibble with the lede: no need to say 'dependable sycophant and habitual "yes-man"', it's redundant.
- Shortened. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Great work on this article!

Suffocating Death "Struggle" that Lasted 24 Minutes?

It is well understood by medical science that victims of hanging lose consciousness almost without exception in less than a minute after suspension. They do not regain functional consciousness at any point. Reflexes and muscles spasms are not a "struggle"...and yet we see this fallacy repeated all over the place. Wikipedia should not be a place of misinformation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.88.37.238 (talk • contribs)

Possibly wrong info on arrest date in may 1945

Sorry to create different thread but there seems to be discrepency:

"On 7 May 1945, Alfred Jodl, on behalf of Dönitz, signed Germany's unconditional surrender on all fronts. Joseph Stalin considered this an affront, so a second signing was arranged at the Berlin suburb of Karlshorst 8 May. There, Keitel signed the German surrender to the Soviet Union. Five days later he was arrested along with the rest of the Flensburg Government, at the request of the U.S.[31]"

Another wikipedia article with source states that government had been dissolved and members arrested on 23rd.

Churchill withdrew his protection once it became clear that the Soviet High Command would otherwise have to be represented in the liaison mission. On 21 May the SHAEF acceded to Soviet proposals that the Flensburg Government be dissolved and its members arrested as POWs. The dissolution was carried out on 23 May. On that day, a British officer went to Dönitz's headquarters and asked to speak to the members of the government. Dönitz, von Friedeburg and Jodl were then taken aboard the Patria, where Maj. Gen. Rooks informed them of the dissolution of the government; placing them under arrest, and ordering that they be stripped and searched for concealed phials of poison.[21][22]

I dont have any other sources to back this but video from historian mark felton on yourube with unknown sources which also states that flensburg government was acting until 23rd here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y99DxDKhOPw&list=PLx2GRxi-rDiE2XSGOAe82lZSG_QcIEgJ9&index=26

If this thread should not have been created, please delete it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:AB04:251:D500:912E:D1E6:8C1F:DAB3 (talk) 23:27, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

May 13 appears to be the correct date; see also here: "On May 13, 1945, Keitel was arrested with the rest of the Flensburg Cabinet." from USHMM. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:34, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]