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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Amakuru (talk | contribs) at 17:12, 25 May 2016 (→Requested move 9 May 2016: re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. It is clear from the direction of the discussion that concerns over recentism are sufficiently strong such that no consensus to move the article will be reached at this time. Xoloz (talk) 22:17, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

– The TV series is currently one of the most talked about series on television, garnering critical acclaim and a large fan following. The magazine article is a stub with one reference from 2008. Page views over 30 days (1,512,822 vs. 72,069) and 90 days (2,175,517 vs. 100,717) clearly indicate which article is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC at present. A disambiguation page is not necessary, per WP:TWODABS. Trut-h-urts man (T • C) 22:44, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Pornographic Photo in Episodes Table

In the table of episodes, there is a big old pornographic picture that I'm pretty sure doesn't belong there. But I cannot decipher the code enough to figure out how to remove it. danzig138 (talk) 00:18, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

International airing?

The article seems exclusively concerned with US airing. I believe it is/was available in other countries via other channels than HBO (Sky Atlantic in the UK, I would imagine). Adding non-US detail to the article would be much appreciated. Anna (talk) 18:48, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Individual articles for each episode

Seeing as how extremely popular this show has become, I think it's justified that each of the eight episodes get their own articles, which cast listings, plot summary, production details and critical reception. Anyone else agree? --The monkeyhate (talk) 13:53, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Nope. I think the episode table on this article page is sufficient for now and there will be little worth expanding at this time beyond those plot summaries since the other information is generally the same. I think the policy against content forking should prevent this expansion of articles because at this time the material in each article will be largely redundant--copying the same production information, cast, and plot summaries already at the parent article, contra WP:REDUNDANTFORK. The critical reception for each episode would be more effective at the parent article level given the show's complex narrative arc and that a lot of the extant critical reception is for the series as a whole. Further, we ought not get into a minutiae of an episode's symbol analysis since again, that kind of material would be more effectively as a whole at the parent article level. The material isn't developed or developable at this point to warrant related articles or spinoffs per WP:RELART, WP:SPINOFF. I also think that the notability guideline on derivatives articles regarding book characters/minutiae would be worth applying here--"it is a general consensus on Wikipedia that articles on books should not be split and split again into ever more minutiae of detail treatment, with each split normally lowering the level of notability"--while some shows that are more developed have articles for each episode, I don't think at this time such article forking will be useful or effective here, and think WP:BKD should have an application with TV shows. Maybe in the future such an idea would be warranted--that time is not now. --ColonelHenry (talk) 15:31, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Throughly Thoroughly disagree with ColonelHenry. If you want to create an episode article, be bold and do it. There is plenty of commentary online to cite regarding production and reception sections of each episode. I'd say go for it. -- Wikipedical (talk) 17:46, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Then you can "throughly" (sic) disagree when I boldly merge any of his forking articles back into the main article per WP:CFORK and WP:BKD.--ColonelHenry (talk) 18:05, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • You're serious? Individual episode articles do not fail WP:CFORK, and there's plenty to say on each True Detective episode. That may apply to thousands of Law and Order episodes, but not HBO's new prestige drama, which has hundreds of articles of commentary in major news sources. If The monkeyhate or another user can find the reliable sources to create an article, that is completely reasonable. You should not discourage editors from helping to expand the encyclopedia. -- Wikipedical (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • Hey, I like the show too, but I also liked Steven Bochco's Murder One (TV series) which was ABC's "new prestige drama" at one point and went on for two seasons (with a lot more episodes) without anyone writing an episode guide. There isn't enough about individual episodes that can't already be properly addressed at the main article. Be bold and create cruft, be bold and merge cruft. Potato Potahto. Policies support both positions, reliable sources and the quantity of quality content determine otherwise. I don't think, in my estimation and after several searches through reviews, etc., there's enough at this point to warrant crufting 8 new, separate articles that are already adequately addressed and can be appropriately expanded in one place where it is already for the time being. Fan-sites and blogs don't count and there's only so much a TV critic will put in an 800-word column on what's new and hip in TV. When people write books and journal articles analyzing the episodes beyond some TV-beat reporter's recap of an episode I'll be monkeyhate's cheerleader. So, for the time being...yes, I am serious. "Merge that shit" will be my mantra.--ColonelHenry (talk) 21:46, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • And pop-culture editors pushing out cruft on their favourite TV shows aren't expanding the encyclopaedia, they're creating a fanguide...nothing more. Wikipedia isn't IMDb. If monkeyhate spent his time turning Monkey or Hatred into an FA, that would be expanding and improving the encyclopaedia.--ColonelHenry (talk) 21:56, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pretty much everything ColonelHenry said about possible sources is wrong. There WAS extensive analysis of every episode posted by significant sources (NOT blogs, NOT fansites, and NOT mere recaps). His response was irrational and ignorant. I hope nobody took it seriously. --SubSeven (talk) 21:01, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah. Thanks for the insult. When there are books and scholarly journal articles, go right ahead...until then, all I seem to find is newspaper television columnists and bloggers with next-day recaps, of the first 20 google hits, 60% are not acceptable under WP:RS or WP:BLOGS, and the rest are either reddit, Wikipedia, HBO, or amazon.com saying it's available on DVD and Blu-Ray, and two (from The New Yorker and The Atlantic) that address the series as a whole. Thus I'm still ready to merge fancruft.--ColonelHenry (talk) 21:06, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, you're just a big ol' Wikipedia bully, aren't ya? That's twice you've threatened to merge an article without even reading it or looking at the sources. How about this, if you merge a properly sourced episode article for True Detective that establishes the episode's notability, I'll undo the merge. That sound like a plan? --SubSeven (talk) 05:19, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be great to have articles for each season and possibly for each episode, assuming someone is willing to flesh out the individual articles so that they include plot and reception sections (with ratings and critical reception info). ---Another Believer (Talk) 13:44, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

True Detective Episode Wikipedia Page

I think it would work out best if we made a Wikipedia page for all the True Detective episodes.--Einsteinbomb (talk) 22:56, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Further Influences

This series also bears some resemblance to the 2011 film, Texas Killing Fields, about two detectives trying to solve a series of murders of young girls in the creepy bayou region between Houston and Galveston. The 2015 book, Deliver Us, was also based on these murders, but it is unclear if the film makers used these crimes as source materials. Kundera707 (talk) 04:39, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]


The first season is clearly influenced by the McMartin Preschool incident and the documentary film Paradise Lost. Can this be added to the influences section? Or am I off my rocker... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.181.240.195 (talk) 14:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Find a reliable source that discusses this and then it can be added. Drovethrughosts (talk) 14:36, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reception

The writer Ben Lawrence isn't the football player, unsurprisingly. I have removed the link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.162.12.14 (talk) 14:57, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Season articles

The main article is getting pretty large, and I feel there's enough content for season articles to be created. I've made a draft for a season 1 article in my sandbox (User:Drovethrughosts/sandbox). Since TD is an anthology, most content is going to be very season-specific and I'm assuming the article will expand futhur with content regarding season 2. To break it down, the changes would/could be:

  • The conception section could be moved to the season article, but a trimmed version would stay in the main article.
  • The cast and crew info moved to the season article, and only a list of characters stays in the main article.
  • Opening sequence section could also be moved to the season article since it's season 1 specific, but a trimmed version could stay in the main article.
  • I've used the expanded version of the critical response section (before it was trimmed several months ago) for the season article, while the (newly) trimmed version stays in the main article.
  • The table for the accolades is moved to the season article (because it contains all awards), while the shorter, prose version (which only lists major awards) stays in the main article.
  • I've created a more detailed subsection for its viewership for the season article.
  • Themes and influences could be moved (because it's only specific to season 1), but, a trimmed version could stay in the main article.
  • The episode list would get moved to the season article, but a transluded version would remain in the list of episodes article (see List of Game of Thrones episodes if you're not aware of what that means).

Thoughts? Suggestions? Thank you. Drovethrughosts (talk) 14:30, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely! I think there should be articles for each season, and possibly even for individual episodes (each one gets a lot of press coverage). @Drovethrughosts: Knowing your work, I strongly support your efforts here. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:39, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Another editor has gone ahead and created the articles (True Detective (season 1), True Detective (season 2)). They're definitely looking great, however, like I said above, some content from the main article needs to be trimmed now. Pinging relevant editors: @Another Believer:, @Captain Assassin!:, @DAP388: and @Rhain1999:. Drovethrughosts (talk) 13:49, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this article has a lot of fat that needs to be trimmed. Here are some of my own suggestions:
    • The accolades section actually has more than enough content to warrant its own separate page. A simple paragraph or two summarizing the major awards and the number of awards should suffice for the main article. I created a draft for this a while back. Feel free to add to it!
    • I agree that content relevant to a specific season should be removed. That includes the opening sequence section (unless more information about season 2's opening title is released) as well as information pertaining to the supporting cast. I think the main article should only touch on the principal cast. The intro, while not now necessarily, will eventually need to be more concise as the show unfolds in the future.
    • To me, the conception section is important in showing readers how the series came to be. I'll see if I can polish that section up a bit, but I feel like a lot of that content merits staying on the main article. Ditto to the themes section as there is a lot of coverage on the topic, although I do think there is more than enough room for tidying in prose and content.
Momentarily working on getting the season 1 article to GA quality, but I will see what I can do in helping out with the main article. —DAP388 (talk) 15:18, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Great work DAP388! As for the main article trims, I'm all for cutting the recurring cast and just listing the primary cast. What about the casting, should it stay, or just be housed in the season articles? Basically, should the cast section for the main article just be a simple list? Also, I restored the article's original, more lengthier reception section in my sandbox, do you feel this should be used for the season article? I also think the Themes and influences section would need a trim. Drovethrughosts (talk) 21:17, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think prose would be better for the main article. Perhaps a little polishing, specifically for season one, would suffice, as it doesn't need to be as comprehensive compared to the season articles. Just a concise summary will do. The season two cast section is about as concise as it can get to me. I kind of see what you mean about the themes section; a trim would be fine, or remove it all together as content analyzing themes isn't necessary unless the article is FA quality.
I was looking to bulk up the reviews section in the season one page, so feel free to add that content from your sandbox and I will make the finishing touches once added. :) —DAP388 (talk) 04:25, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I trimmed the season one cast section here. I eliminated the bullet points, converting it to prose (with some minor changes, although improvements probably could be made). I cut the bulk of recurring cast, except for two (Dunn and Daddario), who are both are notable and are cited. What do you think?

What does this mean?

"Pizzolatto hired fellow novelist Scott Lasser to help break stories for the second half of the season." What does this mean? Is it a term of art? If so, it should be linked or explained. I don't have a clue what this means. --71.55.229.47 (talk) 20:44, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed it to read "to help develop and write stories". Is that more clear? I originally used "break" because that's what the source says. To "break" a story is like creating an outline or a basic idea of what the story would be. But yes, since that phrase is an idiom, it shouldn't be used on Wikipedia. Thanks for pointing it out. Drovethrughosts (talk) 23:01, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 9 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. It's a close one. Opposers make a good argument that the magazine has long term significance, but there's just enough consensus from supporters that the TV series is overwhelmingly what is sought at this title, and hence it's primary topic.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:44, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]


– The TV show is absolutely the primary topic. I'm actually doubtful the dab page is needed, because the essay isn't notable at all in comparison to the other two subjects. Unreal7 (talk) 12:30, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've stricken my support; I rewrote the magazine's article with two new sources and it looks like it has considerable long-term significance. I'm shifting to oppose, as the pageviews are overwhelming.--Cúchullain t/c 19:43, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, un-striking. The show also has long-term significance and is far and away what readers are looking for. In the current arrangement, we're sending virtually all our readers to dead end.--Cúchullain t/c 17:29, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Not the primary topic when considered historically and long-term significance cannot be determined yet even though the older magazine has endured in memory due to its cover art and "true-crime" stories. (at least, that's how I heard of it and only know of the television series in passing) Opencooper (talk) 16:37, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Secondarywaltz and IIO. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:48, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support due to OVERWHELMING gap in page views which supersedes the 'historical significance' criterion of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (note that the policy states that both criteria do not have to necessarily be met to establish a primary topic). Also, in this case, we have years of stats which we can use to reliably predict that this trend of the two articles' traffic will not change as time goes on (the recentism/historical argument). The traffic received by True Detective (magazine) is a trickle, at best, and there is no indication this will change. The TV series is a show that has recently aired and is boosted by that, yes. But for a couple of examples, compare to two past shows on the same network, Oz (TV series) and Six Feet Under (TV series). Despite their being off the air for over 10 years, and not having been as popular as True Detective to begin with, they still get over 40x as many daily page views as True Detective (magazine). I see several oppose arguments here that actually contradict the policy. 1) Both main criteria of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC do NOT have to be met (which of course is the case - if not, primary topics could never be established in favor of a newer entry until some amount of time had elapsed, which the policy might as well state explicitly) , 2) WP:BUTIDONTKNOWABOUTIT is not an argument for/against a primary topic candidate, and 3) 'who had the name first' is not an argument for/against a primary topic candidate. That is all right there in the policy. Please read the policy and apply it in a way which serves the user, which is what WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is all about. --SubSeven (talk) 19:57, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per SubSeven. Historical importance matters, yes, but it might yet be true that the TV show was more influential than the long-lived magazine. Longevity is not everything; a novel is only released once but can have huge long-term notability, more so than a magazine. Same with a TV Series. SnowFire (talk) 06:30, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

This looks like another page where Amakuru moved the article but not the talk page. They ought to be moved together, and that is the default action for a move. --David Biddulph (talk) 15:56, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@David Biddulph: apologies again. The problem is that if the target talk page has a nontrivial history (i.e. a non-administrator would not be able to move to that talk page location), then the talk page doesn't move with the article even if you tick the box to say move it. The target talk page has to be deleted first, and separately, just as an article would be. I'm quite new as an admin, and this problem never arose when I used to move pages in my non-admin days, because if the talk page can't be moved, then most likely the article can't be either. I will make sure to keep an eye on this more in future. I've now moved this talk page as required, anyway. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 17:12, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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