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how we include the concept of ruminating thoughts

Through a long conversation with Health Researcher, in tandem with independent research on the topic using Google Scholar, I have come to understand what he intended to convey by writing the sentence given below in Meditation#Definitions and scope, realized the importance of the idea behind that sentence, found a number of sources which clearly and explicitly talk about the idea, and changed my stance so that whereas before I felt the sentence should be removed altogether I now feel the idea should be included in a different way.

This article mainly focuses on meditation in the broad sense of a type of discipline, found in various forms in many cultures, by which the practitioner attempts to get beyond the reflexive, "thinking" mind[58] (sometimes called "discursive thinking"[59] or "logic"[60]) into a deeper, more devout, or more relaxed state.

The topic of that discussiong with Health Researcher, seen in the section on this Talk page entitled quieting the thoughts, was what we called variously, ‘ruminating’, or ‘discursive’, or ‘reflexive’, or even, at one point, ‘logical’, thoughts, or ‘spinning’, which I feel now is best captured by the following phrase from a very well-cited article which was the product of several meetings that aimed at hashing out a clear and meaningful operational definition of mindfulness, a word, practice, and idea, which has become so popular in the West, in addition to its now almost two thousand five hundred year-old history in the Buddhist tradition, as step seven along the eightfold noble path, in addition to its role in other traditions as well.

"The self-regulation of attention also fosters nonelaborative awareness of thoughts, feelings, and sensations as they arise. Rather than getting caught up in ruminative, elaborative thought streams about one’s experience and its origins, implications, and associations, mindfulness involves a direct experience of events in the mind and body (Teasdale, Segal, Williams, & Mark, 1995). Note that mindfulness is not a practice in thought suppression; all thoughts or events are considered an object of observation, not a distraction. However, once acknowledged, attention is directed back to the breath, thereby preventing further elaboration. This is thought to inhibit secondary elaborative processing of the thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise in the stream of consciousness. Thus, mindfulness practices are though to be associated with improvements in cognitive inhibition, particularly at the level of stimulus selection. This can be objectively measured using tasks that require the inhibition of semantic processing (e.g., emotional Stroop; Williams, Mathews, & MacLeod, 1996)." - Mindfulness: A Proposed Operational Definition

So, I feel that this change needs to be made for a number of reasons,

• 1) Clarity. An easy and honest way to do this would be to replace the sentence with the quote from the study given above. The current sentence leaves the uninitiated without much of an idea as to what is meant, quite simply. For instance, the use of the word ‘thinking’ is too vague, and ‘logic’ is just not quite appropriate either. I could go into further details, but I think that this point is clear enough.
• 2) The topic is important enough to be included because of the details given earlier regarding the ancient history of the concept in Buddhism and its widespread use in modern Western therapy.
• 3) The concept might be included as a part of the typologies section as well. For instance see Jon Kabat-Zinn’s highly cited article, Mindfulness-Based Interventions in Context: Past, Present, and Future wherein he writes,

”In this regard, mindfulness certainly received its most explicit and systematic articulation and development within the Buddhist tradition over the past 2,500 years, although its essence lies at the heart of other ancient and contemporary traditions and teachings as well, approaches that can be of great value in refining one’s own practice, insight, and teaching (see, for example, Chuang Tsu, 1964; Krishnamurti, 1999; Lao-tsu, 1988; Maharaj, 1973; Maharshi, 1959; Thakar, 1972;Tolle, 1999).”

• 4) The characterization of this aspect of mindfulness as applying to all the multitude of methods of meditation is simply incorrect. There is just very little, in practice, which one will find to be true of all the literally hundreds of styles of meditation. The whole idea that’s being made, in the article quote above and in other sources as well, is that this is a corresponding result of specifically mindfulness-based practices. There are a number of practices that are specifically done to cultivate mindfulness, and there are a number of practices which are not done for the express purpose cultivating mindfulness, and this mindset, as well. For instance, compassion meditation is done to cultivate compassion and goodwill, and anapanasati is done to cultivate mindfulness and awareness of the present moment. There are several sources which verify that this change is associated specifically with mindfulness, including this excellent, explicit and brief video interviewing Mark Williams on Mindfulness-based Cognitive Therapy, in addition to many, many other sources.

At this point, I really feel that I have made what is an obvious point, and an obvious change to the page, in a clear and simple way, and that more conversation is simply not going to help the cause of changing this page in any meaningful way.

I appreciate, as nearly always, your constructive tone, Health Researcher. After all, I have benefited from these conversations and have been motivated and enlightened, so to speak, in my own practice with mindfulness.

makeswell (talk) 14:22, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Makeswell, thank you for your kind words. But with regard to your 900-word post above, please note that it is about 9 times the length recommended in WP:TALK for good practices. With regard to its advocacy of changes to the page: 1) I find it hard to figure out what precise changes it may be advocating, and 2) Over decades, the generic literature on meditation rarely if ever tries to define "nondiscursive" or "logic relaxation" in great detail. That strongly suggests that WP will have a hard time doing a whole lot better. 3) Meditation is not equivalent to mindfulness, and the mindfulness literature is mostly relevant only to Buddhism, so it won't solve our generic problem on this page. Personally, I suspect we can't do much better in explaining "nondiscursive" than we do already -- just as an article about musical tones can only go so far in explaining the musical scale to someone who is deaf. I think you should be prepared to "let go" of this issue. Health Researcher (talk) 21:10, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

My point is that we use the quote,

"The self-regulation of attention also fosters nonelaborative awareness of thoughts, feelings, and sensations as they arise. Rather than getting caught up in ruminative, elaborative thought streams about one’s experience and its origins, implications, and associations, mindfulness involves a direct experience of events in the mind and body (Teasdale, Segal, Williams, & Mark, 1995). Note that mindfulness is not a practice in thought suppression; all thoughts or events are considered an object of observation, not a distraction." - Mindfulness: A Proposed Operational Definition

to replace,

"This article mainly focuses on meditation in the broad sense of a type of discipline, found in various forms in many cultures, by which the practitioner attempts to get beyond the reflexive, "thinking" mind[59] (sometimes called "discursive thinking"[60] or "logic"[61]) into a deeper, more devout, or more relaxed state. The terms "meditative practice" and "meditation" are mostly used here in this broad sense."

and place this in the Typologies section. makeswell (talk) 19:45, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

This page is not accurately portraying meditation. I have provided references to demonstrate this point, including several highly cited article, and one study funded by the U.S. government. Despite this, your blockades have shown the weakness of Wikipedia, that good edits can be stopped by bad reversions.

You have failed to recognize the central issue, that what you've been talking about as 'meditation' is actually 'mindfulness'.

More talk will not achieve anything, obviously. I have made my points simply and clearly. I have not let go of my opinions, but do realize that this much talking is fruitless. I really suggest that you try to formulate an argument as to why discursive thought is associated with mindfulness, contrary to an article cited 418 times. I also suggest that you try to formulate an argument as to why the sports analogy does not apply directly to the quotes given in the chart. Then, if you do not realize the faultiness of your logic, at least we can all have a good laugh at your expense.

You have been laughably off target, and I commend you, sir, for your good deeds at making this page worse in this respect. makeswell (talk) 19:55, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, maybe we could add a few videos from youtube and improve the scholarly quality that way. History2007 (talk) 20:04, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

It's a joke that you try and use a study that's been cited by two other articles to refer to a topic that has been in the Buddhist traditions since 2,500 years ago. hahahahahahaha makeswell (talk) 20:17, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

You have failed to recognize the central issue, that what you've been talking about as 'meditation' is actually 'mindfulness'. -- Makeswell 19:55, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Makeswell, I think your sentence above about "the central issue" is quite revealing of how you are blind to your own POV-pushing. Suppose someone came along and wanted to insert into the definitions section the sentence "meditation is actually just developing Christ-consciousness". That might be true, in some sense, from their own philosophical perspective. But it wouldn't be appropriate for an article such as this which is centered, to borrow History2007's word, on a more "generic" approach (while leaving sections for tradition-specific perspectives). There is no body of scholarship that has determined that all forms of meditation reduce to mindfulness (though perhaps someone has hypothesized it). The definitions section needs to rely on scholarship that has addressed the question of common features of meditation across traditions, and that's what we've been doing -- despite your increasingly tiresome resistance. Health Researcher (talk) 00:06, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry for being unclear. I do not think that all the wonderfully diverse styles of meditation reduce to mindfulness. I think that mindfulness is just one of these many styles of meditation. Sincerely, makeswell (talk) 18:28, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I have added a section on specifically mindfulness-based practices in the Western Typologies section. I did not remove the sentence which you have been saying belongs on this page in its current form. I would like to simply reword that sentence so that it does not refer to 'all' or 'most' meditation styles, but rather to specifically the mindfulness-based practices. It is a commonly understood fact that a lack of ruminating thoughts is characteristic of mindfulness-based practices. Although it is not likely I will find a source supporting this claim, and that is because there are a potentially infinite number of things that can be said, to which nobody would respond, at the same time, there are in fact a large number of books and teachings on the role of mindfulness in developing nonelaborative thoughts. I can and will provide specific books if asked to do so. makeswell (talk) 18:28, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I think that if I were to read the Shapiro and Bond studies which have been cited before in quieting the thoughts, then I may also have thought that all meditation practices lead to a state of 'logic relaxation' or a reduction in ruminating thought, and not yet realize that this is a part of a much, much, larger context of teachings.

I think lastly, there there is reason to believe that the Shapiro and Bond studies are referring to mindfulness and mindfulness-based practices. I can give specific reasons for this statement if called upon to do so. makeswell (talk) 18:28, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Create a separate page for postures?

In my opinion there is probably too much space given here to physical positioning -- i.e., separate subsections for crossing legs, uncrossed legs, hands, and eyes. Space on this page is at a premium. Someone has worked hard on those sections (maybe Makeswell?), and I don't see anything major wrong with their content. They are an asset to WP. But their length here strikes me as probably WP:UNDUE when space on this page is at such a premium. In many traditions, postures are not given a great deal of emphasis (since meditation is viewed as an internal discipline), and devoting so much space on this page almost sends the message that WP thinks postures should be given a lot of attention. And WP is not a "how-to" manual. I propose that a separate page be created for postures in meditation, created from the Postures section on this page (leaving aside chanting, which can perhaps stay here). Then the other page could be cited, and the postures material on this page could be summarized in about 1/4 to 1/6 of its current length. What do others think? Health Researcher (talk) 17:28, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Those sections are mostly unreferenced anyway. Yworo deleted them, then someone restored them! And they do not apply across the board, e.g. Islamic/Jewish/Christian meditation do NOT use them. I say send them into exile anyway. History2007 (talk) 18:57, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

I like this idea. I could do this if you guys want me to. makeswell (talk) 17:48, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Please, be my guest. History2007 (talk) 18:00, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

-> Meditative_postures

Encyclopedia of youtube?

I have counted at least 6 youtube references here, the whole thing looks like a thinly veiled infomercial for the guy in the videos. It just looks shallow and less than intelligent to be doing this type of referencing with plenty of solid books on the topic out there. And I do not see these as WP:Reliable references at all. Not at all. And the points made in them, such as "there are many meditation methods" do NOT require a video. So why make Wikipedia look liek an infomercial for a specific person? I suggest replacing these with solid, WP:Reliabe references, to avoid the trend of this page hitting a new low in banality. History2007 (talk) 19:11, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

History2007, I agree completely, as I said in a post a month ago (12 Oct 2010) that's now archived HERE. I can't imagine that anyone could win an argument that these references should be kept, or at least not kept when there are alternatives. I suggest a two-pronged approach: 1) Immediatly delete any new you-tube refs that are added; 2) When there's available time, delete (that'd be OK with me!!!) or replace the existing youtube references. It would be great if multiple people pitch in (even if just to wield the knife... since I don't see these as WP:RS reliable sources...). Health Researcher (talk) 01:54, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree that additional references are useful to back up video references.

I feel like the addition of YouTube references might depend on who is speaking in that video. For instance, a video of H.H. The Fourteenth Dalai Lama giving a public speech, on say, impermanence, would be credible, while, on the other hand! a reference from Chi-City saying that different girls like different drank, would not be appropriate to reference on Wikipedia!

In lieu of additional references, I feel that every effort needs to be made to preserve the material of all edits made here on Wikipedia. To give breath to diversity. makeswell (talk) 18:41, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, all that we need now are scholarly girl videos here.... How about a video of Janet Yellen on economics? Is that scholarly or girly? You decide. But what is clear is that your view is the minority here. In my view these videos are in the "infomercial zone". If we try to add a video of the Pope's Angelus address to a various pages in Wikipedia, hell will break loose. The same should apply here. Let us leave it at that. History2007 (talk) 19:16, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted the deletion of numerous video references on Meditation. The video sources were fine in my opinion. Please do not revert my change until further discussion is made. makeswell (talk) 19:22, 17 November 2010 (UTC) The sources included: a Google Tech Talk given by Jon Kabat-Zinn; Yogis of Tibet, which is a documentary about the rare practices of Tibetan yogis; one of the talks given at a Mind and Life Dialogue, which is an annual meeting of leading scientists with The Fourteenth Dalai Lama. I feel like all of these sources are scholarly, and also understand that we should be cautious when including a reference from a video on YouTube. Thanks. makeswell (talk) 19:22, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the videos once again. They appear to be excessively promotional, unnecessary (used for citation on content that is already well-cited in academic sources) and of dubious reliability. It is also very difficult to verify the accuracy of a statement in a two-hour video when no context or timestamp is provided. I think we should stick to published sources, especially in an article like this where NPOV would seem to be an issue. Uncle Dick (talk) 19:38, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Uncle Dick. History2007 (talk) 19:43, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Is the concern with video references in general or with these specific video references? makeswell (talk) 20:19, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

My concern is both with these specific references and the context in which they are used. For the most part, they are completely unnecessary since there are already citations to support statements to the effect that there are many different methods of meditation. They are also unhelpful, since there is no way to discern where in a two hour lecture the cited content can be found. Finally, they appear to give undue weight to a specific school of meditative practice and their repetition throughout the article seems excessively promotional. Uncle Dick (talk) 20:39, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that is a key point beyond the infomercial issue. Technically the difference between Sequential access vs Random access, as in page number. History2007 (talk) 20:50, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

There is, unfortunately, no timestamp for the video of the speech given at the Mind and Life Dialogues. I don't think it's common place to delete references because they don't have a timestamp or a page number. Is it?

I actually agree entirely that the hundreds of styles sentence is written too frequently in the article.

There's a difference between dozens and hundreds, though maybe not mathematically, in language they seem to imply something different. Therefore there is not any other reference to support the claim of 'hundreds', which is much more than 'dozens'. I understand that this is nonmajor, but given that there isn't any substantial reason for deletion either, let's keep them.

By the sentence, "they appear to give undue weight to a specific school of meditative practice" are you referring to Buddhism as a specific school? In that case then, including the promotional point, let's simply reduce the number of times that the sentence occurs in the article.

The following source backs up the claim that mindfulness has become mainstream in Western psychology,

"In the last 20 years, mindfulness has become the focus of considerable attention for a large community of clinicians and, to a lesser extent, empirical psychology." - Mindfulness: A Proposed Operation Definition

This could be used in the Buddhism section to give a date to the increased use of mindfulness ideas in Western psychology. Do you guys approve?

Lastly the reference about tummo was also deleted. I see no reason why this should be the case nor has any been given. The reference is Yogis of Tibet, which is a documentary about Tibetan practices. 21:09, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Look, 3 editors have expressed the opinion that those videos are in effect infomercials. End it now. Are we having another verbosity Marathon here? History2007 (talk) 21:22, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I am fine with the removal of the quote from the Mind and Life Dialogues about 100s of styles of meditation. makeswell (talk) 14:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I have gone through the trouble of finding new references to make similar, but distinct, sentences about tummo and mindfulness. I have added these new sentences along with their new references to the page. makeswell (talk) 14:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

M's attempt to define mindfulness as central (section for WP:BRD discussion)

I have reverted the material that Makeswell added today to the definitions/typologies section (DIFF). There are a number of issues raised by Makeswell's edits. I suggest this may be an occasion where the community should exercise extra caution about these issues, requiring that mindfulness-related material by Makeswell be developed first on the talk page and approved. He seems very attached to this issue, but his additions raise many questions. These include:

• Mindfulness is already mentioned in the typology section in the (inset) quote from Bond et al. What is the basis for giving it more attention here, rather than, say, simply in the Buddhism section? (NB: I am not advocating we rule out more attention, but I am saying we must be clear on why)
• M included a quote that "Mindfulness is a theme in a broad spectrum of traditions and individuals, including..." and seemingly cited it to Kabat-Zinn (2003), page 3 (the correct page is actually 146). So what? There are many shared themes across the world's religious wisdom traditions - such as cultivation of character strengths and virtues, etc. This page is about meditation.
• Makeswell seems unaware that the psychological definition of mindfulness that he cites to a paper called "Mindfulness: A Proposed Operational Definition" (by Bishop et al, 2004, not Shapiro et al) has been critized by Buddhist scholars as "oddly at variance" with Buddhist tradition itself. For example, B. Alan Wallace points out that the modern psychology mindfulness literature, and the Bishop paper in particular, use modernized definitions of mindfulness (sati) that are in some ways diametrically opposed to much of Buddhist tradition. This is in his book Attention Revolution (2006, on Google bookview, ISBN 0861712765), especially pages 59-66. I will put some longer excerpts below, but here is one example: "the modern understanding departs significantly from the Buddha’s own account of sati, and from those of the most authoritative commentators in the Theravada and Indian Mahayana traditions" (p. 62).
• M's statement that "Mindfulness is popularly incorporated in both of the meditation styles, focused attention and open monitoring, described below" is unsourced. A key issue issue here and elsewhere with regard to Makeswell's material is whether people using a particular methods (e.g., focused attention) themselves conceive of their method as "incorporating" mindfulness. This nuance seems to escape Makeswell's (tin?) ear. If we want to make claims about an etic category (external external to a tradition) , it should be on the basis of careful/substantial scholarship that documents bases for claim in detail. Otherwise, why not say that cultivation of "Christ consciousness", or "Krishna consciousness" is at the heart of every method? Such claims might merit inclusion as philosophical views within the section on particular traditions, but not (unbalanced by views from multiple traditions) in the overall definitions section.

In sum, there are numerous problems with Makeswell's attempt to force WP readers to regard an etic (external) category, mindfulness, as central. About the only argument in favor of inclusion is that, indeed, "mindfulness" is a hot topic in modern psychology at the moment. If this were not the case inclusion of an etic (external) category from one contending tradition (ie Buddhism) would be a total nonstarter. So possibly there may be some notability derived from its current trendiness in science. But when one looks at the details, there are enormous questions about whether there is an appropriate scholarly fit with this page. Given Makeswell's apparent attachment to this issue, I suggest that the community ask him to propose all text first on the talk page and get approval.

I will need to be away from WP for a few days but before I go I will put some more excerpts from B. Alan Wallace's criticisms of modern psychological mindfulness in a collapsible box below. Regards -- Health Researcher (talk) 23:15, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Comments/critiques on mindfulness (psychology) by Buddhist scholar B. Alan Wallace

EXCERPTS FROM: Wallace, B. Alan. The attention revolution: Unlocking the power of the focused mind. Boston: Wisdom Publications, 2006 (on Google bookview, ISBN 0861712765). FROM PAGES 59-62: In the Indian and Tibetan Mahayana traditions, mindfulness is defined as the mental faculty of maintaining attention, without forgetfulness or distraction, on a familiar object. Since mindfulness prevents the attention from straying from one’s chosen object, it acts as the basis for single-pointed, focused attention, known as samadhi [sic]. Asanga defined mindfulness as “the nonforgetfulness of mind with respect to a familiar object, having the function of nondistraction.” Likewise, his brother Basubandhu defined it as not losing the object of the mind. [END 59, BEGIN 60] In recent years, a growing number of psychologists have been conducting research on mindfulness and its relevance to stress reduction, depression, and the alleviation of many other physical and mental problems. But they have characterized it in ways that are very different from the above description. According to one psychological paper on the topic, mindfulness is “a kind of nonelaborative, nonjudgmental present-centered awareness in which each thought, feeling, or sensation that arises in the attentional field is acknowledged and accepted as it is.”[FOOTNOTE 31 TO Bishop SR, Lau M, Shapiro S, Carlson L, Anderson ND, Carmody J, Segal ZV, Abbey S, Speca M, Velting D, & Devins G, Mindfulness: A proposed operational definition. Clinical Psychology: Science & Practice, 11(3), 230-241, 2004] The authors of this paper propose a two-component model of mindfulness, the first involving the self-regulation of attention so that it is maintained on immediate experience, and the second involving an orientation that is characterized by curiosity, openness, and acceptance. The modern psychological account of mindfulness, which is explicitly based on the descriptions of mindfulness presented in the modern Vipassana (contemplative insight) tradition of Theravada Buddhism, differs significantly from the Indo-Tibetan Buddhist version. The modern Vipassana approach views mindfulness as nondiscriminating, moment-to-moment “bare awareness”; the Indo-Tibetan tradition, however, characterizes mindfulness as bearing in mind the object of attention, the state of not forgetting, not being distracted, and not floating. The scholar and teacher Bhante Gunaratana gives a clear description of the Vipassana view of mindfulness in his book Mindfulness in Plain English. There he describes mindfulness as nonconceptual awareness, or “bare attention,” which does not label or categorize experiences. “Mindfulness,” he says, “is present-time awareness...It stays forever in the present...If you are remembering your second-grade teacher, that is memory. When you then become aware that you are remembering your second-grade teacher, that is mindfulness.” While Gunaratana’s description is representative of the current Vipassana tradition as a whole, it is oddly at variance with the Buddha’s own description of mindfulness, or sati: “And what monks, is the faculty of sati? Here, monks, the noble disciple has sati, he is endowed with perfect sati and intellect, he is one who remembers, who recollects what was done and said long before.”[FOOTNOTE 34 TO Samyutta Nikaya V, 197-198] In contrast to the Vipassana tradition’s insistence that [END 60, BEGIN 61] mindfulness stays forever in the present, the Buddha states that it recollects events that are long past. Indeed, it is well known that the Pali term sati has as its primary meaning “recollection,” or “memory,” which is a conceptual faculty with which we recall past events. In addition to its connotation of “retrospective memory,” sati also refers to “prospective memory,” which enables us to remember to do things in the present and future, and this requires that the mind engage with concepts. The Milindapanha is possibly the earliest attempt in Buddhist literature to state fully just what sati is. Questioned by King Milinda about the characteristics of sati, the monk Nagasena replies that it has both the characteristic of “calling to mind” and the characteristic of “taking hold.” He explained further, Sati, when it arises, calls to mind wholesome and unwholesome tendencies, with faults and faultless, inferior and refined, dark and pure, together with their counterparts....Sati, when it arises, follows the courses of beneficial and unbeneficial tendencies: these tendencies are beneficial, these unbeneficial, these tendencies are helpful, these unhelpful.[FOOTNOTE 35 TO Milindapanha 37-38] So, rather than refraining from labeling or categorizing experiences in a nonjudgmental fashion, in the earliest, most authorititative accounts, sati is said to distinguish between wholesome and unwholesome, beneficial and unbeneficial tendencies. The contrast between the ancient and modern accounts is striking. With his usual meticulous care, Buddhaghosa, the most authoritative commentator of the Theravada tradition, wrote: [Sati’s] characteristic is not floating; its property is not losing; its manifestation is guarding or the state of being face to face with an object; its basis is strong noting or the close applications of mindfulness of the body and so on. It should be seen as like a post due to its state of being set in the object, and as like a gate-keeper because it guards the gate of the eye and so on.[FOOTNOTE 36 TO Buddhaghosa, The Path of Purification, XIV, 141] [END 61, BEGIN 62] The modern description and practice of mindfulness are certainly valuable, as thousands of people have discovered for themselves through their own practice. But this doesn’t take away from the fact that the modern understanding departs significantly from the Buddha’s own account of sati, and from those of the most authoritative commentators in the Theravada and Indian Mahayana traditions. FROM PAGES 65-66: Introspection is a mental faculty having the function of monitoring the state of one’s body and mind. With this faculty we note when the mind has succumbed to either laxity or excitation, and as soon as we do so, it is imperative to do whatever is necessary to overcome these imbalances. Mindfulness and introspection go hand in hand, as described in the above passage and countless other Buddhist meditation treatises. While the modern Vipassana tradition emphasizes that in the practice of mindfulness we must accept our faults without making any attempt to change them,[FOOTNOTE 42 TO Gunaratna, Mindfulness in Plain English, p. 166] this advice is a departure [END 65, BEGIN 66] from the Buddha’s teachings and the writings of the great masters of the past. If you don’t balance your attention when it strays into either laxity or excitation, you will only reinforce these mental imbalances, and the quality of your mindfulness will remain flawed indefinitely. FROM PAGES XI-XII: Truly effective meditation is impossible without focused attention...the cultivation of attentional stability has been a core element of the meditative traditions throughout the centuries.... [END XI, BEGIN XII] Remarkably, however, many contemplative traditions today put very little emphasis on developing sustained attention.... I find it astonishing that the training of attention has been so marginalized both in modern science and in many contemplative traditions. I have written this book in part to help remedy this neglect in the scientific and Buddhist communities.

By the way, that was a correct application of WP:BRD to mindfulness by Health Researcher, it was done on a major edit which had no consensus, unlike the video issue that had pre-existing opposition and was non-major. History2007 (talk) 22:58, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I think you have a valid point Health Researcher. It does seem to be the case that mindfulness is defined in different ways in different traditions.

The reference from Jon-Kabat-Zinn frames his mindfulness in terms of other people's mindfulness, so that he supports his version of mindfulness with the writings of others, rather than vice versa, which could then be used as a typology. makeswell (talk) 18:44, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

If you think that Bond (2006) is about mindfulness, then why don't we work together to include mindfulness in the typologies section? makeswell (talk) 19:57, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Mindfulness already receives significant coverage -- perhaps appropriate, or perhaps slightly too much, in the typologies section. Health Researcher (talk) 21:30, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

To be honest with you Health Researcher, it's silly that you are making the claim that there are numerous versions of mindfulness, that mindfulness is associated with 'logic relaxation', and yet also that, "This article mainly focuses on meditation... by which the practitioner attempts to get beyond the reflexive, "thinking" mind (sometimes called "discursive thinking" or "logic")". If there are numerous versions of mindfulness then how much more numerous (and variously defined) are the styles of meditation, of which mindfulness practices are a subdivision?

If you think that Bond (2006) is about mindfulness then why not mention this explicitly in the article? Considering the article Mindfulness: A Proposed Operational Definition, about how mindfulness and the, "self-regulation of attention fosters nonelaborative awareness of thoughts, feelings, and sensations as they arise. Rather than getting caught up in ruminative, elaborative thought streams...," why don't you want to link the idea of mindfulness to the sentence above about, "the reflexive, 'thinking' mind"?

Notice also the similarity between the sentence quoted above from Mindfulness: A Proposed Operational Definition and the sentence you brought in from Shapiro (1982), "Using attentional mechanisms as the basis for the definition, therefore, we may state that meditation refers to a family of techniques which have in common a conscious attempt to focus attention in a nonanalytical way and an attempt not to dwell on discursive, ruminating thought." The single difference seems to be the use of the word 'mindfulness' where 'meditation' was previously used. Why do you resist this point? makeswell (talk) 18:00, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Makeswell, the topic of this page is meditation, not mindfulness. Your attempt to push mindfulness as central would, to borrow words from Uncle Dick, "give undue weight to a specific school of meditative practice", and be "excessively promotional". Portraying mindfulness as central to all meditation would also either be horrendously WP:UNDUE or would constitute prohibited original research. Your indiscriminant persistence in this issue makes me, and I suspect others, regard you more and more as a dedicated POV-pusher. Health Researcher (talk) 21:30, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay. It just seems that the inclusion of the idea of 'logical rumination' is the inclusion of the idea of 'mindfulness' and so what applies to one applies to the other. makeswell (talk) 13:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Also, you have not responded to my point that 'logical rumination' is the same as the concept of mindfulness. Why is that and how can we work together on that topic?

Please note that saying that 'logic relaxation' or 'reduced rumination' is the same as mindfulness is not original research because it is the position taken in Mindfulness: A Proposed Operational Definition which was quoted above. makeswell (talk) 13:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Makeswell, I'm sorry, I simply can't support you in where you want to go. I think many of your statements reflect serious confusion. You seem to read into the texts the things that you want to see. The literature (e.g., Bond et al) views "mindfulness" as one approach that leads a meditator to refrain from "logical rumination", but there are others, such as concentration on a single focus ("concentrative meditation"), that also lead one to refrain from "logical rumination". Bond et al mention mindfulness only a small number of times (4 total). Their paper is intended to apply to methods of meditation that employ mindfulness, but it is not primarily about mindfulness -- it is about finding a generally applicable definition (or at least "demarcation criteria") for meditation. Isn't this obvious from the title? Bishop et al define mindfulness as "involving" reduced rumination, but also (if you read their whole "two-component" definition) involving other things -- so they are not defining mindfulness as equivalent to logic relaxation or refraining from rumination. These ideas should not be hard to grasp. Please try to assimilate them, and then move on (and avoid falling into WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT - after a certain amount of repetition, we'll have no obligation to answer). Health Researcher (talk) 05:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay.

So, there are two points being raised here,

1) mindfulness practices are associated with (though not equivalent to) nonelaborative thought, in the general Western scholar community. Examples include Jon Kabat-Zinn's definition of mindfulness as 'moment-to-moment nonjudgmental awareness', where nonjudgmental means nonelaborative (or not ruminating, nondiscursive, logic relaxation, and so on) and the highly cited article Mindfulness: A Proposed Operational Definition wherein the claim is made that mindfulness is characterized by, "nonelaborative," awareness, and the Bond et al. study, which, according to Health Researcher, labels as a component of mindfulness a reduction in judgmental, ruminating, elaborative thought processes.

2) nonelaboration is a characteristic of a larger number of practices than only mindfulness-based ones. This point seems true. Tibetan Buddhists believe in union with the nondual nature of reality, or Mahamudra. The Dalai Lama has described human cognition in his book The Path to Enlightenment as producing concepts from reality, which are then differentiated and we then like or dislike (please excuse any inaccuracies I have made in my attempt to paraphrase His Holiness' words.) Nondualism, or nonjudgmentalism, is prevalant, each in their own way, in Buddhist traditions. The nondual state has a correlate in Hinduism, and union of one's atman with the omnipresent and nondual Brahman is sought by this meditation. Eastern Orthodox Christians, who seek union with God through hesychia, believe that God is not accessible to the human logical intellect. In my limited knowledge the nondual is present in numerous traditions indeed. I would like to learn about nondualism in multiple cultures and the specific variations of this idea.

It seems that me and Health Researcher have agreed that nonelaboration is considered by Western scholars to be a characteristic of mindfulness. I'd propose then, that in the Western typologies section, we mention mindfulness alongside a mention of nonelaboration.

Health Researcher has pointed out that there are many considerations of mindfulness according to the many traditions of Buddhism. Because we are writing in a Western schemas section, I propose that we use a Western description of nonelaboration.

I am open to mentioning the prevalence of nondualism in multiple religious traditions. It seems almost funny to use Bishop et al. to introduce this point because it is so important to many traditions as mentioned above. How and whether nondualism is included in this page does not appear to bear on the question of whether mindfulness is commonly associated with nonelaboration and whether this is included in the article.

Lastly, anapanasati, or watching the breath, was taught by The Buddha 2,500 years ago, as described in the Satipatthana Sutta as cultivating mindfulness, or nonjudgmental awareness.

Health Researcher wrote above that concentrated attention, of which anapanasati is a subtype, also leads to the development of nonelaboration, but not of mindfulness. Health Researcher cited Bond et al. to support this claim which is contrary to the circa 2,500 year old Satipatthana Sutta given by The Buddha.

I do not wish to discourage Health Researcher from giving his opinion. I do wish to mention that the point I have been making since the beginning, that mindfulness is associated with nonelaborative awareness, is very common in Buddhist and Western thought.

Let's finish this enormous discussion (Talk:Meditation#quieting the thoughts, Talk:Meditation#how we include the concept of ruminating thoughts and now this section Talk:Meditation#M's attempt to define mindfulness as central (section for WP:BRD discussion)) by mentioning mindfulness alongside nonelaborative awareness.

"The self-regulation of attention also fosters nonelaborative awareness of thoughts, feelings, and sensations as they arise. Rather than getting caught up in ruminative, elaborative thought streams about one’s experience and its origins, implications, and associations, mindfulness involves a direct experience of events in the mind and body (Teasdale, Segal, Williams, & Mark, 1995). Note that mindfulness is not a practice in thought suppression; all thoughts or events are considered an object of observation, not a distraction." - a highly cited Western study, Mindfulness: A Proposed Operational Definition

Note how they consider 'nonelaborative awareness' as an alternative to 'ruminative, elaborative thought streams' as a part of 'mindfulness' practice. makeswell (talk) 02:31, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose. This page is about meditation, not mindfulness. Makeswell's enormous post offers no relevant arguments not already refuted. His enormous convoluted rambling comments are a chore to read, and discourage responses and wider participation on this page. His practice of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT constitutes disruptive editing. Health Researcher (talk) 16:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

My point is that if we mention a reduction in nonelaborative thought on the page then we should link this to mindfulness, which is appropriate given that this topic is in the Western schemas section.

Health Researcher has used a source to mention nonelaborative thought as if it referred to all types of meditation, yet himself says that the source article mentions mindfulness 4 times, while simultaneously claiming that the article is not talking about mindfulness, but about all meditation styles.

The further confusion of Health Researcher as to what constitutes mindfulness practices, including concentrated attention meditation, makes one wonder how well he has interpreted the study he has used to construct his argument that all meditation styles include an element of nonelaboration.

I have not read the study he has used as a source. As I mentioned above, his reason for believing that nonelaboration is a feature of more than only mindfulness-based practices is that the authors of his source mention other types of meditation involving nonrumination, such as concentrated attention. It is the case, however, that concentrated attention, such as watching the breath, is a type of practice that leads to mindfulness. My source for this is the Anapanasati Sutta and Satipatthana Sutta#Contents, two popular sutras given by The Buddha himself 2,500 years ago.

Therefore the whole point which he has been making, that 'all', or actually he's changed it to the weasel word 'most', types of meditation, involve, or as he put it, lead, to nonrumination, is thrown into question.

I've given his point of view perhaps too much credit by saying that perhaps the authors are referring to nondualism, which is broader than mindfulness. However, in a common sense way, it does not seem that the source he's using does actually refer to nondualism, but rather, that he is only misinterpreting the words of that single, poorly cited study.

Regardless of how and whether nondualism is included in this page, the concept of nonrumination or nonelaboration is commonly linked to mindfulness, as argued in the post above, and in the quote above, from a more well cited study (419 times versus 2 for the study sourced by Health Researcher) Mindfulness: A Proposed Operational Definition.

I usually try and keep to the topics, but Health Researcher has not responded, despite numerous appeals, to the point of how nonelaborative awareness is associated with mindfulness. Yes, the page is not about mindfulness, I know. Still, the inclusion of the idea of nonelaboration means that mindfulness, with which nonelaboration is commonly associated, should be mentioned as well.

The problem here of blanket statements about meditation, saying that 'most' or 'all' styles of meditation lead to nonelaboration, reflects a basic misunderstanding of meditation, shown, for one, by Health Researcher's ignorance of the basic fact that anapanasati was taught by The Buddha as a way to cultivate mindfulness. This is part of a larger problem, which Health Researcher has created, with the Western schemas section on this page as pointed out in this section of this Talk page.

I do not really intend to continue this discussion with only Health Researcher because, due to his ignorance of the basics, it ain't goin nowhere. makeswell (talk) 19:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Watchers of this page should know

Watchers of this page should know that Makeswell yesterday filed a request for a third opinion, HERE (DIFF), with regard to the BRD section issues (he also lists the "ruminating" section). He characterizes this as a disagreement between him and me. Unless it would constitute "forum shopping" (which I don't think it does), I would encourage editors already watching this page to register their perspectives on these issues -- even if only a subset of these issues -- here on this talkpage, whether or not any outside 3rd opinions are forthcoming. Health Researcher (talk) 18:38, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes.

I mentioned Talk:Meditation#how_we_include_the_concept_of_ruminating_thoughts in addition to this section of the Talk page.

Briefly, my aim is to include Mindfulness (psychology) alongside the concept of nondiscursive thought already present as the last paragraph in the Definitions and scope section of the article.

I also have made the case that nondiscursive thought is inappropriately applied to 'most' meditation styles. I am not moving to change this at this time, but would be open to more discussion on this topic, especially in relation to nondualism.

Happy editing! makeswell (talk) 17:22, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

I will refrain from rebuttals. Other editors should weigh in - if only to ask for things that could help you participate more easily. -- Health Researcher (talk) 18:07, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

3O

Hello, I took up the 3O request and removed it from that list. I notice there have been other recent 3O interventions. The issues raised here are complex and, as in many cases, seem to me to rest upon a page and citation structure that has some basic problems of its own which, perhaps, exacerbate these difficulties. Let me please make a few remarks of my own, in order to invite comment and perhaps find clarity;

1) "Meditation", as is stated, translates various terms in various traditions but was not originated for this purpose, adding to the complexity of definition. It is, perhaps, mistaken to attempt to clarify these differences too much on a sect-by-sect basis as this prevents comparison and differentiation. It might readily be stated, for example, that the stated goal of spiritual practice (melite, sadhana) will differ radically in theistic and non-theistic systems of thought. On the other hand, use of means such as seclusion, chanting, beads, visualisation etc. are almost universal in major religions - though not, of course, in all forms of meditation.

2) "Mindfulness" is a major part of Buddhist meditation and Buddhism is perhaps the most widespread system that depends upon meditation. Without a doubt it should be mentioned here, yet there are many Buddhist pages on related subjects, while there are many forms of meditation that have little in common with "mindfulness" as Buddha defined it.

3) Blanking the mind - a very common notion of meditation, almost as common as the idea that one should join ones fingers and thumbs, sit cross-legged and chant "OM". And indeed the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra - perhaps the most complete list of methods in existence - includes both of these, more or less. However, a person like Krishnamurti will solidly deny that such things are "meditation". As I understand it, meditators hold that thought introduces a "veil" between subject and object. For example, I may be thinking about you with such concentration that I do not see you are there. The use of terms such as "rumination" and "discursive", which appear to carry a special but unspecified meaning in this context, is perhaps unwise. Further, it is often held, logically enough, that the aim of a "blank mind" is an aim of the mind itself that similarly creates a "veil", the mind being filled and preoccupied with this non-existential desire for "blankness" itself, which is absurd. "Blanking the mind" may be a meditation method, may be commonly cited, yet it can hardly be cited as necessary, either as a method or as a result. Other parameters, such as relaxation, awareness and so on must be seen as equally important at least.

4) What's worse, the word "meditation" is often used not only for the spiritual practice but for the resultant state of consciousness - for example, it might translate Patanjali's "samyama" and "samadhi". More generally all this raises the question of control, aim and intent. There's no doubt that Patanjali supports self-control as a part of yoga yet, once again, other schools might see this as creating mental activity rooted in non-acceptance. Hence the opening statement "Meditation refers to any of a family of practices in which the practitioner trains his or her mind or self-induces a mode of consciousness in order to realize some benefit" hardly applies to many methods, while the second para implies that meditation and prayer are one and the same, without discussion or citation - I'd suggest it would be far better to open with statements such as Naranjano's, which better prepare the reader for the controversy that is to follow. I do not doubt that the statement above is properly cited but, once again, someone like Krishnamurti would reject it completely as a definition. For myself, I am not sure even that consciousness has "modes" - as a reader I do not understand the statement, whoever said it: it requires clarification.

Enough for now. Please comment, if possible offering a CONCISE account of changes that are proposed and/or rejected. Redheylin (talk) 23:56, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

there are many forms of meditation that have little in common with "mindfulness"

This means - and I agree completely - that there's no basis for saying in the "definitions" section that "mindfulness" is an intrinsic component of all meditation. Health Researcher (talk) 01:22, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Since Redheylin seems to want to open up lots of issues, I want to remind everyone that there is an actual body of scholarship that seeks to make statements that are valid across multiple (many) types of meditation. This includes books such as Goleman (1988), Shapiro and Walsh (1984), papers such as Walsh and Shapiro (2006), and others highlighted in the table of definitions. This is the body of scholarship that is closest to dealing with the special challenge of this page (i.e., addressing meditation in general). I contend that any conversation about the desirable structure of this page is off-track if it ignores this body of scholarship. I have no additional suggestions to make at this time, except to say that I suspect a lot of editors are tired of enormous posts, especially if they are rehashing old issues. Health Researcher (talk) 01:22, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I apologise for the length of my own post: these issues are not "old" for me while it appears, as I say, that structural and citation problems are exacerbating things. The converse of the "mindfulness" matter may be found in the following rather sweeping comment from Osho on Vigyan Bhairav Tantra;

"These one hundred and twelve methods of meditation are exhaustive. There cannot be one hundred and thirteen. Everything that different human types will need is included in one hundred and twelve methods. And they are handed down from centuries. They are simple. The key in all those one hundred and twelve methods is witnessing -- in different forms, in different strategies -- but the innermost core is witnessing, awareness, watchfulness. You can call it anything, but it will be another meaning of witnessing."

"You can call it anything" - but "mindfulness" is certainly too much associated with Buddhism. And there are methods, such as Dervish whirling, that may bring about "blank mind" and "awareness" as a byproduct, but certainly do not in any way attempt them directly as a means.

Perhaps, User:Health Researcher, you'd be good enough to explain how you feel the body of work you mention relates to the present structure of the page. I am all for following an authoritative source for article structure itself. It's also arguable that "authority" in this matter may include first-hand experience of meditation, since many of the realities with which meditation claims to deal are subjective and cannot be otherwise studied - for example, nobody can decide, really, by thought and study and measurement, whether Buddha is "enlightened" or a "third eye" can really open! Redheylin (talk) 01:53, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I just think that there should be more sources and information there than there is now. The topic of nondualism is large, and there is alot to be said about it. I really don't have time to research the topic further, but I know that there are sources which discuss nondualism more in-depth, and it is present in many cultures, which I'm sure, as I've talked with my friends about, that this is a topic in modern scholarly works. So, I would propose that we broaden the topic and in the process mention and include the specific traditions/heritages in which nondualism or nonrumination, or something made clear on this page, in a cultural context, whatever whatever, ya know. makeswell (talk) 06:13, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe even just add a '(Also see Nondualism)' makeswell (talk) 06:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

5 cents

Immediately turned off by the beginning paragraphs of this article, which seem to promote a particular school of thought WRT what meditation proper ought to be. I've no qualms with the content per se (tho statements like "The purpose of meditation is based on the fact that the human mind is always in a state of flux" clearly needed to backed up). But such content needs to be placed in the descriptions of particular meditation styles/schools. I can see that there's already some discussion over this, but I haven't bothered to wade thru it all. I'm just going to add my 5 cents here in the hope of helping to prompt a more even-handed edit of this biased entry.

174.70.58.119 (talk) 04:17, 15 December 2010 (UTC)jamie b.

I removed the text. I don't think it was appropriate. TimidGuy (talk) 11:59, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Parking deleted text

I removed this text added to the lead a few days ago:

The purpose of meditation is based on the fact that the human mind is always in a state of flux. This constant restlessness prevents us from accessing our immense inner resources. Thus meditation practices, in general, aim at reducing mind chatter, so that we perceive reality as it is. Practitioners at various stages interpret the practice according to their levels of development. The term 'practice' can be questioned when looked at from the point of view of 'experience'. Meditation is not about verbalizing, it is about experiencing. Again, some amount of practice is required for the experience.

It's unsourced, and is in the style of a personal essay, especially with its use of first person. TimidGuy (talk) 11:56, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree with this observation. It needs to be rewritten. --BwB (talk) 12:14, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree. makeswell (talk) 21:31, 17 December 2010 (UTC)