Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia/Archive 4

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Centro Galleria

This extract from the history section of Centro Galleria doesn't sit right with me:

"Centro Galleria was officially opened in 1973 by Westfield Group it was largely demolished in 1989 to make way for a newer, larger shopping centre. The shopping centre reopened in 1994 after a five year long major redevelopment, and has had incremental expansions over time since then. The shopping centre was built by the Coles Myer Group, and Collier road was re-routed around the center."

I thought Morley just had a freestanding K-mart store (now part of Galleria), maybe a freestanding supermarket, the burnt-down Boans and that other complex that's still there on the northern side. Was there a Westfield on the site before the big 1994 construction, can anyone recall? And what are these incremental expansions to the centre since 1994? I don't know of any, unless it's a car park or something equally minor. - Mark 09:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't recall (I lived SOTR in those days), but here's some semi-related background including a nice photo of the Boans fire, which should at least be mentioned as site history. Moondyne 08:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Henrietta is always good for a giggle

• http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search~S1?/Xboans+morley&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=D/Xboans+morley&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=D&SUBKEY=boans%20morley/1%2C14%2C14%2CB/frameset&FF=Xboans+morley&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=D&9%2C9%2C
• [Fire destroys Boans shopping complex at Morley.] Sunday times (Perth, W.A.), 22 June 1986, p.3,
• see also http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search/X?SEARCH=boans+morley&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=D
• see also http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search/X?SEARCH=galleria+morley&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=D

That should keep you out of mischief for a few secs - I am going to be having a henrietta and wikibreak soon - It is well worth trying henrietta first - oggle has nothing in comparison on such subjects SatuSuro 10:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Original Research warning

From my memory of Morley of the late 80's there was four main buildings divided by Collier road that ran more or less north south. The land and buildings of the area became Galleria

1. Boans was on the eastern side of Collier road set back in the carpark and had a string of about 4 small shops with open verandah, the building was a two story steel, concrete, asbestos construction. The Boans building was the one destroyed by fire the shops were were damages by smoke and water but closed due the extend of the damage and concerns about asbestos at the site.
2. The Generator Hotel, was also on the eastern side of Collier road but set at the intersection of Wellington, Walter, & Collier. It continued to operate well after the fire and during the most of the construction. I spent many a Friday night there mainstay of the bands was the Jetz. I think it closed/demolished within months of the official opening and was just turned into carpark.
3. Kmart/Coles building this building was a free standing building faced north, was on the western side of Collier. Behind this was a large sump/swamp/drain feed from the carpark. Kmart remained open during construction, the footprint of the store has remained basically unchanged. Coles was along side(east of Kmart) and both faced the carpark there was a enclosed glass walkway in front/joining the two stores. During early construction coles continued to operate at some stage coles moved into its current location, though not sure if it traded uninterupted, but it did trade for a reasonable length of time(months) before the centre opened.
4. Target/Woolworths This was the newest of the buildings it was on the southern side of the sump and the western side of Collier rd. The building was a T shape shopping center with Target and Woolworths kinda facing off (entrances offset) on the southern end, running across the top of the T was a number of shops. These continued to trade uninterupted during construction, target, woolworths are also on the same footprint they had prior to construction, only the right top of the T was altered.
   

There wasnt any building I can recall as being title Westfield, though I suspect it was the Target complex if any that would have been named in 1973 as it was the last of the shopping areas to be built and had an actual shopping centre layout. I dont recall a Westfield brand named complex until Carousel was refurbished at around the same time, then both Galleria and Carousel started using the name. The significant alterations was rerouting of Collier road, which would now run across the actual footprint of Boans. The sump/swamp still affects the site is the reason why the building orientates eastwards. There was a street that ran east/west across the front of Kmart thats been all but absorbed into the carpark it does have lights on Russel. The buildings that house Fast Eddies, Etamougha Pub etc were late additions that area was were the Generator was and it became carpark. All of the are that includes Myers was built during the 1994 works. There was a Bunnings, the building is still there but its tennent has changed this was on the eastern side of collier originally but with the rerouting its now on the western side. There was also a Drive in Cinema on Walter rd east of Boans that closed around the same time as the fire occured, I dont think its land was incorporated into the footprint of Galleria or Collier road. Gnangarra 13:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/images/pd258/258,208PD.jpg is a good reminder for oldies as to where the drive in was SatuSuro 13:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

nice it was where I remebered, but being so young well....Gnangarra 14:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I have an idea your "Target/Woolworths" building might have been named "Morley City". Hesperian 22:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The sump is still there, by the way. It is the only structure to have survived. Ironic? Hesperian 22:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I think Morely city was to the northwest of the Kmart site whos basic structure still exists. Gnangarra 10:47, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't that Morley Markets? Or was it the other way around? Hesperian 10:50, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I've whipped up a vector map of the Morley shopping district from 1975 LISWA aerial photos. Any help with identifying the buildings would be appreciated. - Mark 15:43, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I can help with that, having been closely involved with the Morley shopping precinct between 1975 and 1983. The main elements were Progress Street with Morley Markets on the Walter Road side and Coles-K-Mart on the other. (Morley City was further up Russell Street.) A big battle was fought over several years by a union of Bayswater Shire personnel and developer Colonial Mutual to close off Collier Road and reroute all traffic to the developer's wishes. They were opposed in a big campaign by established traders in the centre, including Morley Markets, Coles/K-Mart, the Morley Park Hotel, etc. D'Orazio became shire president when his predecessor's supporters were thinned out at the annual election in 1983. I may have some old maps in my archive. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 03:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like the Eastern Reporter or its predecessors may be of use too from that period. Orderinchaos 07:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

WA Inc, Bevan Lawrence, etc

Recent publication of Prof. Quentin Beresford's The Godfather: the life of Brian Burke (Allen & Unwin 2008) now provides much-needed impeccable citations for resurrection of an article on Bevan Lawrence which was deleted for inadequately stated reasons. I am prepared to initiate this work. Can anyone access a copy of the deleted material for private reference, please? The new book is also, of course, a mine of citable data on the Burkes and their notable associates before, during and after the WA Inc era. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 03:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I've emailed it to you. Restoration of the article will be slightly problematic and you will need to tread carefully. The article was clearly removed on notability issues, hardly "for inadequately stated reasons", and the discussion blanked for BLP reasons. A new source won't necessarily improve notability. Please don't restore or userfy it until these issues are addressed. –Moondyne 04:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Ta. Rest assured I have no significant interest in Carmen. His PFFOG stuff is more notable and in need of being placed on wider record, and there's no hurry. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 07:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Essentially an article which is simply a coatrack for allegations against his sister would not be acceptable. It's worth noting our current BLP policy and the two ArbCom decisions related to it which emphasise the seriousness with which such issues are viewed. Quite separately, Bevan would also need to meet Wikipedia's notability standard, too. As a curiosity I do intend to work on Brian Burke and some other premier articles next year and possibly get them to FA - Burke's is actually a very interesting tale and a lot more complicated than the papers like to paint it, either now (godfather/antihero) or at the time he was popular (Mr Everything/saviour of the state etc). Orderinchaos 07:22, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Christ Church Grammar School

Hi, could I get someone to look at the article - User:Topology Expert has wandered by and is convinced the school is some sort of inhuman sports camp, inserting his POV into the article with unreferenced and OR statements. I've repeatedly asked for citations but he's just ignoring me and making things up. TRS-80 (talk) 08:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

article improvement

The article History of Western Australia needs an improvement in the lead section. I'm likely to forget, and not likely to do it soon. Does someone want to have a go? cygnis insignis 16:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree, it needs major work. Feel free. ;) –Moondyne 02:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I've taken a swing past added bits 'n peices and created a 3 para lead though this still needs some tinkering with Gnangarra 13:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Suburb Info box

The formatting of the box was altered at some stage now all surrounding suburbs are automatically linked, which was a good idea but the reality of the situation given that we dab all Australian place names isnt so good. An example is Ashfield, Western Australia only one of the Bayswater links are to the local burb the other is to Bayswater in the UK. Either we need to embark on a burb by burb dab or have the info box changed, any thoughts on which way to go? Gnangarra 01:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Good point actually. Was done when we did the infobox but when one thinks logically through it, there seems no good reason to maintain autolinks on those fields, so I've undone it on the template. Orderinchaos 09:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Early Days

Does anyone have access to Vol. 6 Part 3 1964? Specifically looking for "The foundation of British rule in the West: H.M.C.S. Amity and H.M.S. Success" by Marcus Conrad, starting p.62. Thanks. –Moondyne 12:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I will look in UWA tomorrow (am there for other reasons already). Orderinchaos 12:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks mate. –Moondyne 01:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Apologies about this one - I will get it tomorrow or the following day. I haven't actually been to UWA yet. Orderinchaos 13:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Not me. Hesperian 12:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Need RS re gay venues

You wouldn't have thought it was so difficult to find a reliable source which says the Court Hotel and Connections Nightclub are the two main gay venues in Perth (for the most part the only gay venues, but anything else that does spring up is temporary). It's common knowledge, but the only RS I can find for it is the front page of the Guardian Express in an article that quotes press releases from a Perth councillor and the Court themselves. I've hunted Factiva and even the academic sites - any ideas, anyone? Orderinchaos 09:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

maybe we are an enlightened bread here in Perth and such trivial information just isnt notable or we west ostriches keep our heads in the sand... Gnangarra 13:24, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe try

Lingane, Dennis.(1999) "Drag on draught", Sunday times (Checkout section), 20 June 1999, p.10.

Hesperian 23:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what's more embarrassing - knowing where to find RS for gay venues, or claiming that the Slimes -and the checkout section in particular - is a RS! Are there any mentions in hansard or CofP council meetings - or maybe court case reports of hate crimes? The-Pope (talk) 23:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what's more embarrassing - knowing where to find RS for gay venues... "... not that there's anything wrong with that", right? Hesperian 23:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

If the article isnt about the Court Hotel its self then court Hotel website offers some stuff alternatiev gay in wa has [1] this on a Court Hotel AHA award. Gnangarra 23:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Get a print copy of Lonely Planet Western Australia. That usually includes that sort of info. Here's the online entry for Perth entertainment - Gobeirne (talk) 23:54, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Ah thanks. :) Will try Lonely Planet. Orderinchaos 13:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

As a complete aside (and continuing on embarrassing) - I just realised our annual Pride Festival doesn't have an article of any kind. I don't even know where to *start* with that one as I'm not an arts/culture kind of person, but I note the Adelaide and Melbourne varieties have articles. Orderinchaos 13:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Career Fire and Rescue Service of Western Australia → Fire and Emergency Services Authority of Western Australia ?? –Moondyne 07:00, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Have to agree the WAF&RS should be included as part of the history of FESA not a separate article.Dan arndt (talk) 07:12, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done –Moondyne 09:09, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Fremantle harbour

I'm going to have a crack at this. But should it be called Fremantle port? Davidcohen (talk) 07:48, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Fremantle Harbour looks good. Well done. –Moondyne 08:24, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Penguin Island

I'm really not in the mood to write in an article right now, but I saw a fairly decent article about the history of Penguin Island in the travel liftout of today's West Australian. Hopefully one of you will feel inclined to harvest it for suitable material for our article about the island. - Mark 11:05, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

notin the mood to write an article right now; I hope you're feeling better soon. Hesperian 11:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Interwiki project

Main page: User:Orderinchaos/Interwiki WA

Just to cast out a bit wider what I've been working on - over the last few days I've conducted an audit of the Western Australian articles hosted on other language Wikis. The state of both the articles and the level of coverage really varies quite widely, from pretty good on German and French to pretty weak on dozens of others. 20 wikis have non-trivial coverage of WA topics, whilst 45 have WA and/or Perth only as articles. This may be overstating it a bit, as at least one wiki had "Australia's province" and a map from Commons as the only content for Western Australia, and the Estonians created a heap of substubs for small WA towns starting with A and B.

I've talked to someone else who ran a similar project in their area of interest and got some ideas. One thing that came up is the need to develop clear, straightforward articles in basic English which are suitable for unambiguous translation. (Note that this is not the same standard of English which may be suitable for en.wikipedia.) These can be offered to any project that wants them.

I've already engaged five native-language editors on various wikis who are willing to help correct the machine translations for grammar and meaning once we have the end products. I was surprised at the level of interest especially from German, Italian, Dutch and former Yugoslav editors to have vastly improved Australian coverage.

Ultimately the end result, if successful, will be that several different languages will be able to offer a meaningful, locally-vetted collection of information about Western Australia to their readers. I think this is a good aim. It may also set an interesting challenge for the other Australian projects.

I'm going to be on Wikibreak for three weeks, but I thought I'd chuck this out for ideas as to:

1. what people think the scope should be (I favour a limited but useful one)
2. see who is interested in helping to develop this resource on the English end
3. find out if anyone here speaks any other languages well (preferably natively but doesn't have to be)
4. any other issues, challenges or ideas.

Unless other people volunteer, the development idea I have in mind is that I write the articles, others check them over / suggest improvements, and then as a job lot, we get them distributed. Orderinchaos 07:17, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Sounds interesting; I'd be happy to help out. Do you have an example article that shows general content and writing style?

In regards to point 3, I wanted to write "I used to know Japanese" in Japanese, but all my rusty brain can work out in that sentence is "私は日本語を..." which only mentions the words "I" and "Japanese", and nothing useful at all (and took forever to enter - I probably should uninstall the Japanese language stuff from my computer and save myself the hassle). So, I'll volunteer for writing in English, but certainly not for translating anything! Somno (talk) 13:27, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks :) Translation isn't the greatest need - it seems to be there's just about no wiki where there aren't bilingual speakers and translators, and we can get a machine translation (with a fair bit of checking) to do 75% of the work so they just have to check our version for grammar etc. Given the breadth of coverage on French, German and Dutch I'm probably going to try working with them first, and that will allow us to refer strong speakers in those languages who may not be as strong in English on other wikis to those versions. With Afrikaans, which we don't have a translator for, the quality of the articles they're producing themselves on WA topics is quite high (their wiki has featured one of them!) and it may just be a matter of assisting those already doing the excellent work over there. Might also try and get Serbian going as it seems once you've done that, you have the basis for about 4 or 5 language wikis (Croatian, Serbocroatian (yes, they have a separate wiki!), Bosnian, Macedonian and likely others), plus I have a friend who speaks that as a native language and can check them before they're posted. Estonian will be the interesting challenge - they've produced loads of substubs for us which I'd rather like to see improved. So the main task is just getting it right at our end. Orderinchaos 20:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi. An interesting project. Feel free to throw a couple of discrete tasks my way if you want. My 'other language' skills don't extend beyond rough conversational French & Japanese (just enough to draw puzzled expressions from native speakers of those lanaguages) and thus of no use to your project but I'll do what I can in terms of generating or refining suitable content in English. A couple of observations: Seems the greatest effort required will be in the translation and ongoing 'management' eg translating future edits, monitoring changes etc. Also - I don't see that much is achieved by having an article about a small town or a regional highway tranalated into 30 or 40 languages. For both these reasons, I'd suggest (at least initially) limiting the scope to a small number of large articles - enough to provide broad understanding and coverage of WA, and focussing the effort on getting a few articles in good shape across multiple Wikis. Without seeing the numerous Estonian stubs (starting with the letters A and B) you referred to, I can't see that having 200 small WA towns C through to Z covered by Estonian sub articles would achieve more international understanding of WA (if that's the objective) than would a dozen 'high-level' articles polished up and properly translated into 50 languages. Still, anything is possible with enough resources.GlenDillon 03:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Totally agreed. et:Baandee is a good example of the Estonian stubs, by the way. Their admins have no interest in deleting them (I asked). The "dozen high-level articles polished up and properly translated" is pretty much my aim here. Orderinchaos 05:03, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

WA has a town called Baandee? Learn something new every day... How do we decide which places to focus on initially? Population? Somno (talk) 09:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Population and then, below a certain level, importance, I'd say. Definite absolute musts are our five cities (Albany, Bunbury, Geraldton, Kalgoorlie, Mandurah) plus Fremantle. As a bit of a test, I wrote stubs for the regionals in Arabic today. Got back to en and the bot had already figured it out and added them as interwiki links. Gotta love automation. Orderinchaos 10:11, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

In that case, someone should break the news to Joondalup that it's not a city... I would add our common tourist destinations (not to "promote" them to other countries, but rather because they may have heard of these places and be interested in reading about them): Monkey Mia, Margaret River and Broome. Somno (talk)

Also places of major industrial importance such as Dampier. (Those three you mention are quite well represented across the 20 wikis with more than trivial coverage of WA.) Orderinchaos 08:53, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I thought I posted this last week, but it seemed to disappear, or never appear, so I'll say it again. This is where the importance category should be of use. I would guess that every article in Category:Top-importance Western Australia articles should be translated into every wiki. Most articles in Category:High-importance Western Australia articles should be targetted to be translated as well. Mid or low importance articles are likely to be translated only if there is a specific reason - ie some of the more obscure Dutch explorer articles are more likely to show up in the nl.wikipedia than in the ja.wikipedia. Conversely it's a good chance to review the allocation of importance on all the articles that you are considering for this project - you might find an article that has been marked as mid or low, that you feel is really a more important one and should be marked as such - or have some top or high articles that aren't really that important. Obviously the importance should pertain primarily to the en.wiki but this is a good question to ask. Is this top importance article worth translating to other wikis? The-Pope (talk) 12:07, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

For WA project attention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Gerald_Glaskin - has been offered for some odd reason. SatuSuro 02:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Solved. The offshoot of this is that Glaskin's identity as one of the early homosexual writers ( he didnt 'come out' until later in life) in Perth - as a consequence the now vigorously politicised and present community in perth has a media presnce, members of parliament identifiably of the lgbt persuasion and all - anyone any material for an article for Perth?

Also for the scandal enthusiastic - Saturdays West has a revamp of the Shirley Finn story that does not go away - but interestingly the names of those involved that have circulated over the last couple of decades are in print (the most common story doing the rounds was it was a hitman from east who was paid for by a politician and some tops cops who didnt like the heat being put on by shirley) SatuSuro 12:06, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I arrived in South Perth from Sydney only weeks before Finn was executed in her 'Mafia staff car'. I was soon made aware of an earlier, possibly linked, episode in which a middle-ranking cop called 'Spike' Daniels sought to expose illicit police involvement in brothels. I understand that 'Spike' was sent for the customary psychiatric branding and ruthlessly ejected from the fraternity. Bjenks (talk) 00:27, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Karratha, Western Australia

I've had a crack at cleaning up this article and would welcome any assistance in improving it. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 15:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks great to me - good work :) Should we have articles on the suburbs? Orderinchaos 15:58, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

You choose! I've also had a crack at Pannawonica, though my personal experience of it goes back about 30 years. Bjenks (talk) 16:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

{{Heritage Council of Western Australia}}

In case anyone else finds it useful, I thought I'd mention that I just created {{Heritage Council of Western Australia}}. Hesperian 13:38, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Densities

A user Geoking66 has been popping up all over my watchlist adding densities to Perth suburb articles. Quite aside from the fact precision is impossible as the ABS only provide areas to 1dp (2-3sf), I would question its usefulness as a measure. Any thoughts? (I would deal with it myself but I'm very busy offline.) Orderinchaos 05:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Would have to agree - residential densities are misleading when used as Geoking66 has been doing - simply because the land area for the suburb includes more than just the residential land area (i.e. bushland, road reservations, commercial and industrial areas) therefore a suburb might have a high residential density for its residential areas but because the balance of the suburb is commerical (with no residential component) the overall density is lower. Town Planning professionals only apply densities to residential areas and not overall suburbs (precisely for the reason I have described). Will need to revert all the edits made in this respect. Dan arndt (talk) 08:00, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I've reverted the ones I can find. Orderinchaos 08:21, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

While I'm away...

Might want to keep a watch on Landsdale, Western Australia. It's been a problem for a while. Orderinchaos 10:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and someone adding racist crap to Padbury, Western Australia, and trying to add "affluent" to the lead of Applecross, Western Australia. Safe to assume I won't be here at all until Tuesday. Orderinchaos 14:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Prose review

For reasons unrelated to Wikipedia, I'm absolutely zonked and my wording is wonky, but I am not seeing how to fix it. Could anyone with a few moments cast their eye over the "Overview" section of Court Ministry (about the Charles Court ministries of 1975-1982), which I created over the last few days, and review the prose so that it reads well in English? Would be much appreciated. Orderinchaos 00:34, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

done. your's was fine. I only tweaked it. Doh! I just checked back - you said Overview - I only looked at the lead-in. Okay - I'll do Overview tonight and I'll read your messages more carefully in future. GlenDillon 08:56, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Forgot to note here - thanks to you and Djanga for improving the above article :) Was much appreciated - I was able to get the content but was too tired/preoccupied to word it. Once I finish the offline work I'm doing now I plan on improving the ministry and elections articles I've already completed and doing separate "Government" ones. I'll update here when that's happening - I probably have my own biases and this stuff is and should be way bigger than one person, and sources can be selective (i.e. Political Chronicle which I'm using as a main source may well omit interesting stuff which occurred and which isn't picked up by other sources). So just an advance notice that 1970s-2000s WA politics is going to be getting a lot of attention shortly. (I'll complete ministries articles back to whenever but they'll probably be just lists) Orderinchaos 05:54, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Coordinators' working group

Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot (Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 06:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

and here's me thinking this a collaborative effort that anyone can cintribute to.... :{ Gnangarra 14:31, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

You would've been right, if you actually did think that or made some attempts to discuss it. Instead, launching this MFD straight away is interesting; apparently, fellow Wikipedians don't deserve 'a fair go', let alone basic courtesy. I'm not sure my message at the MFD is getting through to you (maybe it's my English...I don't know), so I'm noting it here in the hope that someone else from the project may be able to better communicate my point to you - I myself can't think of any other way to word it. Thanks. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:07, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I was unhappy about this new group too. Quite a number of us kicked up a stink about it, as a result of which it has been, and is being, rescoped. I suspect that the group was never quite as clubby as the above spam made it out to be; and to the extent that it was clubby, I think it is gradually being fixed.

At present the "coordinators' group" looks like becoming an open working group on WikiProject assessment. I can't think of anyone in this project who is really deeply involved in assessment; mostly we've outsourced our article assessment to a small group of enthuastic WP:AUS assessors. But maybe I've overlooked someone. It doesn't really matter, I suppose, because so long as this new group remains open to everyone, we need not endorse a representative for this project; anyone with an interest can put their names down. Personally I can't think of anything duller.

Hesperian 03:21, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Satu and myself have probably been the most active WP:WA-based assessors - that being said, I have very few opinions on wider assessment, it's meant to have a use and I think people try to draw out more meaning from the assessment system than is actually required. I tend to rate rather subjectively (size, language and references), and I'm happy they introduced the C class assessment as that filled a gap for too-good Starts and not-good-enough B's, but yeah. Orderinchaos 05:49, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry - as far as WA assessment I am nowhere compared to Djanga's previous incarnation's WA assessments (which were significant contributions the WA project status as a well managed project), my assessments in the WA project are but a mere bootstrap - I assess very much larger numbers of Indonesian and Tasmanian project pages. Or tag category pages. I have strong opinions on tagging and assesment that do not belong here - lets hope the group sorts its purposes out to not be elitest SatuSuro 12:40, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

The effective demotion of WP:Perth as a separate project to a taskforce (whatever that is) of WP:WA mid 2008 caused a bit of a flurry, but since then its a matter of just keeping on top of things. I keep an eye on Category:Unknown-importance Western Australia articles and Category:Unknown-importance Western Australia articles, making sure both stay empty (there's also links to both of these at the top of this page if anyone is interested). Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Western Australia articles by quality log gives a fairly good idea of what's happening behind the scenes if you can be bothered.

I'll keep my opinion on the working group being discussed to myself. Djanga 13:07, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd second Satu's credit too :) I had entirely forgotten about that business... yeah the Perth thing was a bit strange but the lack of activity there I think meant that the people from here were maintaining that anyway so best to have it under one umbrella to reflect the totality of work going on for WA, as opposed to other states where the people working on the cities and on the country areas are almost mutually exclusive. Orderinchaos 13:32, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

It would be remiss of me to fail to remind all that OIC did the lion's share of the WP:PERTH project transitioning. Djanga 13:41, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I do think (from my own very weird and wonderful journeys into other projects and their tagging and assessment - either lack or chaos of) - that we should really give a lot of credit to those who have helped and who see legitimacy in keeping up with tagging and assessments here in the WA and Australia projects - we actually have a handle on what we have in the project and what we need to do - there are many out their in total ignorance of their own article count or category tree or anything really. SatuSuro 13:49, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Success Bank

Above redirects to Gage Roads which states they are one and the same. That is not my understanding—I'd always understood Success Bank to be a shallow E-W bank lightly to the south of the harbour entrance and Gage Roads to be slightly to the north. Does anyone have access to a decent map or some such reference? Djanga 12:22, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

My understanding is that Gage Roads is so named because it is a great place for ships to anchor off shore, because it is deep; on the other hand, I think that Success Bank is shallow, and therefore a navigational hazard. They are gazetted as distinct places.

Hang on a sec and I'll peruse my book shelf... here you go: from Page 204 of Sense of place:

"Cockburn Sound... is the southern part of a basin about 60 feet deep, lying between the mainland and the mostly submerged aeolianite ridge running from the island of Rottnest, through Garden Island to Point Peron. The basin is divided into three parts by two submarine banks, Success and Parmelia, with Gage Roads off Fremantle at the northern end, a small basin off Owen Anchorage in the middle, and Cockburn Sound at the south."

Hesperian 12:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Beat me to it - well done - good ref - they are very different - by nature of their names alone, the henrietta refs group:

• Changes in seagrass coverage on Success and Parmelia Banks between 1965 and 1995 / prepared for Cockburn Cement Limited ; prepared by National Geographic Information Systems (Australia) Pty Ltd., University of Western Australia, Botany Department, D.A. Lord & Associates Pty. Ltd.

Published [Perth, W.A.] : Cockburn Cement, 1998. ISBN 1876476001

• whereas the southern part of gage roads has been full of empty grain ships for weeks and weeks and weeks now - of which I have a range of very poor photos taken from scarborough SatuSuro 12:48, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh hell what an idiot I was when I was first editing - very very wrong - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Success_Bank&diff=230990919&oldid=33101036

Thanks for alerting to my geographically challeneged rubbish - please feel free to eliminate my early days mistakes - SatuSuro 12:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry about it mate. Your Henrietta ref above prompted me to find this which has a fairly clear map on page 19 of the pdf. I hadn't realised that Cockburn Cement do the dredging for the FPA and they call it sand mining. Djanga 13:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Portal

FYI, I have removed the "News" section of the WA portal because updating the section is not high on anyone's list of priorities (including my own) and it was out-of-date again. Mentioning it here in case someone wants to add the section back and maintain it, and for transparency because there's no hope of the WA portal becoming a Featured Portal without a news section, and some might disagree with a decision that takes it further from featured portal criteria. Somno (talk) 07:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

It would be worth considering an informal update collab perhap amongst the usual suspects if they piped in to volunteer for small short times with low pain threshold tasks - problem with the nature of the daily news in wa - some items come and go quickly while the least suspecting items linger - very hard to keep a balance - as to what is significant versus what the daily tv and paper emphasis versus what could follow up in a reasonable article imho. As for featured - hmm -= do we want to be that ambitious? I await the responses with interest. SatuSuro 08:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, maintaining a balance in the news items is one of the things I found the most tiresome. We could update the section daily with news about Ben Cousins, as the WA media likes to do, but he's not even from WA so it might be a bit of a stretch. Direct link to the news archive is here, FYI: Portal:Western Australia/Western Australia news/Archive. Somno (talk) 08:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

For the adminstratively minded

Or perhaps the curious - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Cities_of_Western_Australia - is a town always a town is a town? or should that be when is a town not a town? Anyone at a loss might peruse the talk page of the template - it probably should have been discussed here rather than there - if there is indeed a grading scheme for towns in the state - a good specific ref is needed to either fix this for once and for all - or otherwise it might fester into what orderinchaos calls creep SatuSuro 06:58, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

There is an actual defintion as to what constitutes a City in Western Australia - will try and chase down the specifics for you (examples include the City of Swan, which comprises the towns of Midland, Guildford etc). Am fairly certain that there is also a definition of a town as well as the small entity is a shire (ie Shire of Peppermint Grove & Town of Claremont). These definitions however relate to the Local Government Authority and not necessarily to the geographical entity. Dan arndt (talk) 08:02, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I support the template including cities only, unless a clear list of "major towns" in WA has been defined by a reliable source, rather than OR. Somno (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

The provisions related to the changes for Cities and Towns are contained within clause 2.4 of the Local Government Act, 1995 (as amended) which essentially state the Governor can make the following desingations for a locality:

• a locality can be designated a City (in the metro areas) where it has a population of more than 30,000 residents & more than half live in a urban area (rural areas) has a population over 20,000 & more than half live in an urban area
• a locality where more than half its population resides in an urban area can be designated a Town
• anything is designated a Shire

It's worth noting that even if there is any subsequent change to the population (ie it decreases below those thresholds) its designation continues to apply until the Governor makes an order for it to be changed (which I guess is why Cities like the City of Nedlands exists with a population of only 20,000). Dan arndt (talk) 08:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

The template even briefly contained "major Perth suburbs" with the localities in which seats of local government were based. It omitted Morley, Belmont and Cannington to name a few, while including Stirling. Orderinchaos 08:45, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Edited the template - creating Metropolitan Cities and Regional Cities. Dan arndt (talk) 09:05, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for the errors, I went too far with adding things. I fully acknowledge what I've done wrong. I have included the towns with a population greater than 10,000 - Ophiuchus14 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ophiuchus14 (talk • contribs) 13:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Article alerts

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Thanks. — Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 09:51, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

A note of thanks

Just to thank User:Digestible (née User:Bush shep) for their excellent work in rewriting the articles at User:Sarah/Copyvios - a key task for the Politics section of the WA WikiProject - as well as generating a fair few new ones, and in checking the lists I wrote in August and September for the various electoral terms - some have needed new disambiguations due to similarly named articles that have been written since I compiled the lists, and there were a handful of errors/oversights which needed correcting. As you may know I'm on extended wikibreak atm and have a range of tasks on my list so this Wikipedian's assistance was much appreciated. Orderinchaos 21:03, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

No probs. :-) Digestible (talk) 18:36, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

As a complete aside, could someone have a look at Tonkin shadow ministry? Any improvements to the lead would be much appreciated (they'll probably end up being reused in quite a few shadow cabinet articles once I can be bothered writing them). I should probably stop writing these things when I'm just about to go to bed :P Orderinchaos 22:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

WAM Song of the Year

Just noted that WAM Song of the Year has been proposed by some American editor for deletion as it is an Minor Award with no claim of Notabilty. Unfortunately I'm away at the moment - only logged on to check something - am concerned that it maybe put up as an AfD in the meantime - can anyone assist until I get back and provide references and/or justification. Dan arndt (talk) 00:12, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Long time no speak here

Cripes I really must be slipping up - no message here for oever 2 weeks.

Question - do fellow project participants who participate in this page see any problem with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pilbara_region_of_Western_Australia - where I have added a link to our portal?

I'll explain further. I am going through a very heavy bout of category tagging - (ok some would say it was fatal, ok) and realise that some Indonesian and Malaysian categories have literally nothing on the category page to identify which project they are connected to due to the lack of a word or two which thing they are in - so at some stage in the past one of the long disappeared Indonesian eds (I think havent checked) had been adding portal|Indonesia (inside curly brackets of course) as a means fo identifying where a caategory might link to a portal. I thought the same might be worth doing in some of our category pages - anyone with any good sound reasons against? SatuSuro 08:26, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, the only problem I can see is that the portal's "Selected article" is currently a redlink... I'll go fix that now. Somno (talk) 02:54, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

OK

Dead/quiet as a doormouse - another issues for the more see faring readers of this oh so busy noticeboard (sic) - Trepangging aka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%AAche-de-mer - we might have reason for a range of issues to arise from this vis a vis the wandering indonesian fishing persons coming into oz waters for such - any overview of the cucumber fish trepanging in oz waters range of arts or no arts would be appreciated - if anyone is the slghtest interested SatuSuro 01:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

And here was I never knowing that Sea Cucumbers were actually fish - will wonders never cease. Sato are you talking about illegal fishing within Australian maritime waters? Dan arndt (talk) 06:57, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Thems the damned complications - thats all mixed up with it SatuSuro 10:36, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

See also: Trepanging, Macassan contact with Australia and a bunch of other related articles. cygnis insignis 12:21, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Interesting one (or not)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Former_students_of_Guildford_Grammar_School is up for Prod and the parent category is up for AFD Category:Guildford Grammar School - any WA eds who have contributed to private school articles and categories might or might not be interested in the issues - cheers SatuSuro 15:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh quiet allley, dark corner etc etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_era_of_Western_Australia Looks like someone forgot to turn the lights out - a GA has slipped out and no one was looking? SatuSuro 11:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the GA Sweeps assessment - too many issues and seemingly too little interest to warrant putting the article on hold while the issues were addressed. Bit sad that it was demoted all the way to C-class though. Somno (talk) 14:05, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I think that was because of all the cn tags. Without those it'd be a B for sure. Orderinchaos 14:19, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with it too. I put a lot of effort into that article before the use of inline citations had been adopted. Months after I had moved on and lost interest in the topic, Ghostieguide nominated it for GA. It was put on hold because it lacked inline citations. Ghostieguide tried to sort out the issues, but as he hadn't written the article and didn't have the sources, he was floundering. So I went back, dug up my sources, and started re-citing the article. Before I had finished the job, the GA was passed! It should not have been. Hesperian 23:25, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes it feels like I've been editing here forever, and then a paragraph like that will remind me that there was once a time before inline citations... Somno (talk) 13:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Yagan, featured January 2006, was one of the first, if not the first, FA to use the <ref> system. Not that long ago really. Hesperian 13:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing became far stricter, especially on biographies of living persons, after the Seigenthaler incident, which became public in late November 2005. Before the release of the most commonly used footnote system in late December 2005, editors used Template:Ref and Template:Note, which I never quite understood. There was also a time when embedded citations were perfectly acceptable in Wikipedia articles. We've come a long way since then. Graham87 07:22, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Up, up and away!

I have always been fascinated by some of the toponymy of south western Western Australia, especially the number of places with names ending in "up". This is far too common and localised to be random and there must be a common meaning behind these names. In the process of attempting to save List of Australian repeated place names from deletion, I found the articles -land, -hou and -onna, a similar phenomenon.

My first thought that there would be scope for an article -up that would explain the derivation of the suffix and provide some examples of its use. Does this project feel there is scope for such an article? Is there available high quality sources for use in this article that explain the derivation of the name, the language it came from etc. Does the -up suffix have a role in WA popular culture at all? (fictional town name ending in -up, rhymes taking advantage of the similar suffix?) I There is a similar phenomenon in south east Queensland, northern NSW with the suffix "bah" or "ba" that I would also like to tackle. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 02:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

-up means "place of" in northern Noongar dialects; so, for example, Balgarup means "place of Balga", i.e. "place where Xanthorrhoea preissii grows".

In southern dialects, -in was used instead; so, for example Dowerin may mean "place of Dow-arn", i.e. "place with many ring-necked parrots".

Yes, I bet there are fictional towns that use it.

Hesperian 03:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Directions mixed up? the use of -up is common to the south and coastal area ie wagerup, nannup, kirup, boyanup where as -in is more use in areas northerly and easterly, ie Dowerin, Tammin, Wubin, Cunderdin etc. Gnangarra 06:23, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed - "up" seems to be used as far east as Esperance but only along the coast, and the entire South West corner and the Perth region. The closest-in "-in/ing" I'm aware of is Mundaring; as far as maps go I can find them as far north as Wubin on the Great Northern Highway, and inland from the west and south coasts (e.g. Duranillin). Past Wubin, a different language or dialect appears to kick in, as is the case past the Yilgarn heading east. Note all of this is very tired mapreading at 4am, so I may have messed something up. Orderinchaos 20:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

A prime example being Dorothy Hewett's (The Man from) Muckinupin :) Bjenks (talk) 05:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for all the above, I guess another example from popular culture would be Fourecks#Bugarup, even though it is based on Sydney! -- Mattinbgn\^talk 05:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Australian_repeated_place_names out of interest it seems that Matt is facing the usual circus characters who inhabit Afd - you might want to scratch the monkey next to you or make a comment - SatuSuro 06:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Check out Western Australian Place Name Trivia and see how many you can get right without reverting to WP. Dan arndt (talk) 07:03, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I have created a draft at User:Mattinbgn/-up -up (Now in mainspace, it would be difficult to speedy delete now). Assistance etc. would be welcome. Interesting to note some interesting pairs such as Wagin and Wagerup, Narrogin and Narrikup and Burekup and Burakin. A map or maps showing the locations of the towns would be a great addition if anyone has any skill at that sort of thing. An interesting contrast would be to have an "up" map and an "in" map together to demonstrate the separation. I must say that names like Bailup, Cookernup and Wonnerup look like a bit of a piss-take directed at eastern-staters like me! :-) -- Mattinbgn\^talk 08:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

If you are interested in place names there is some discussion on WA Indigenous place names and spelling here. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 09:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

None of those pairs are close to each other, by the way. Orderinchaos 13:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

What, not close geographically or not close in derivation? Wagin and Wagerup both claim to be derived from "place of emus". -- Mattinbgn\^talk 14:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I meant geographically. Sorry for not being clear. :) Orderinchaos 20:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation

From my talk page:

Yeah, they look fine. There are two other possibilities.

/uːp/ is the vowel of "coop". If you want the vowel of "foot" (and in US English at least, "woop" and "oops!"), it would be /ʊp/.

/ʌp/ is a full vowel, often transcribed with "secondary stress", as in "tea-cup" or "pick-up truck". If you want the reduced vowel of "gallop" or "bishop", it's /əp/.

kwami (talk) 00:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

What is the correct pronunciation of "up"? -- Mattinbgn\^talk 00:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Its "up" as in the direction up Gnangarra 10:26, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah it's the upside down v one you want. Manjimup in a broad country accent would sound like "MENNN-j'mupp". Cowaramup, which I've mispronounced for most of my life, is "kuh-WARR-uh-Mupp" (warr as in warren) Orderinchaos 13:15, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

FYI

One of our articles was mentioned in The West's Inside Cover yesterday. Issue is fixed now but just thought I'd bring it up in case it gets more attention or leads to anything else. Somno (talk) 03:17, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Opinions sought on possible cottesloe arts

Two articles for considertion would they meet notability, is there enough information out there;

1. John Curtin's House heritage listed and subject to a recent 500K funding for the national trust to restore/repair.
2. Cottesloe Ocean Pylon damaged today, but an iconic? landmark for the area.

My thoughts are yes to both, I've already got some images. Gnangarra 10:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, both have been listed on the Register of Heritage Places by the Heritage Council of Western Australia, which also gives background information on both.[2][3] This information , together with information from current news stories on both and your photos should be enough to start two interesting articles. Melburnian (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, both are notable. Orderinchaos 13:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

started John Curtin's house already have added 8 red links for possible articles, ignored a few more names because they appear unlikely to meet notability :( oh there is so much still to be written about. Gnangarra 03:21, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

The further I get into Curtin house the more Elsie also warrants her own article, she has a rather impressive list of successes including a CBE in 1970. Gnangarra 07:56, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Graylands Teachers College

Is there an article that contains information on the late (and seemingly unlamented) Graylands Teachers College. I would like to add a link to it in the Kim Hughes article. Many thanks in anticipation. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 12:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

It became part of Edith Cowan University in 1989. Definitely something that needs more work but I'm not sure where to look for it. Orderinchaos 12:21, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. There isn't really even a section in the ECU article to link to, however, so I might leave Graylands Teachers College as a redlink in the article for now. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 12:35, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it's mistakenly called the Graylands campus. There were three teachers colleges (Graylands, Claremont and Churchlands), two of which merged with an advanced college of education in Mt Lawley to form WACAE which later was renamed ECU when it got a charter. Orderinchaos 13:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I've started a rudimentary stub. Melburnian (talk) 13:46, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Great stuff! Thanks very much. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 13:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks :) Orderinchaos 17:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Nice work. Any chance we could get articles on the other ones? Rebecca (talk) 14:25, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Claremont already seemed to have one but was in a poor state of repair. Churchlands as yet doesn't. Orderinchaos 17:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Boulder, Western Australia

I have removed the redirect and created a stub article, which I'll expand in the future. The Town is IMHO sufficiently notable to warrant an article as a town rather than just a brief paragraph in the Kalgoorlie article. Gnangarra 10:51, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Let me know if you need any photos.  florrie  11:30, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

What a silly question we need a photo of a beer on every bar in every pub still open in the town, please :) Gnangarra 11:40, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Kalgoorlie is a weird case in that it's the only regional city where we don't have suburb articles. Once I am free I am happy to address this if there is a consensus to do so. Orderinchaos 11:45, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

You might find these docs useful...[4] [5] ...although they use "precinct" names which don't necessarily relate to suburb names. Still, the history is there.  florrie  15:17, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I missed part 3...[6]  florrie  23:18, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Question from an ignorant easterner. Should the article Kalgoorlie, Western Australia be moved to Kalgoorlie-Boulder, Western Australia, currently redirected to City of Kalgoorlie-Boulder? This would be in line with the bolded title of the article and allow a new Kalgoorlie, Western Australia article created about the suburb? -- Mattinbgn\^talk 11:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

yeah, thats why I move the boulder article, though Kalgoorlie history etc is still more associated with K-B then the boulder history is. Gnangarra 11:53, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

actually on second thoughts no, because Kalgoorlie is how its known now rather than the K/B migh be something in a Kalgoorlie(suburb) article though Gnangarra 12:06, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. If that is the case the Kal article bolded title may need reviewing. I have created Category:Suburbs of Kalgoorlie-Boulder and Category:Kalgoorlie-Boulder should editors here wish to populate them. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 12:19, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

It is all rather confusing. There has historically been two separate centres, Kalgoorlie and Boulder, with the former being much greater in significance and appearing on world, national and state maps. Boulder is in effect a suburb of Kalgoorlie. The local government people decided to make it all confusing back in 1989 when they created the City of Kalgoorlie-Boulder. Since then there has been some confusion as to what the entity is called. (Another really confusing thing is that the City contains several thousand square kilometres of almost empty land that has nothing to do with the urban settlement.) Per Wikipedia's general guideline that we use the most commonly used name, Kalgoorlie, Western Australia should be the main location for the urban area, with Kalgoorlie-Boulder probably subnoted in the lead. Then we can have suburb/locality articles. I have yet to check the Battye for historic localities, but the following is reasonable as a list (all are officially recognised):

Kalgoorlie (basically a CBD suburb), Boulder, Binduli, Boorara, Broadwood, Brown Hill, Bulong, Fimiston, Hannans, Karlkurla, Lakewood, Lamington, Mullingar, Parkeston, Piccadilly, Somerville, South Boulder, South Kalgoorlie, Trafalgar, Victory Heights, West Kalgoorlie, West Lamington, Williamstown, Yilkari. O'Connor is in fact part of Somerville. Orderinchaos 17:05, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

For anyone outside of this to understand a little better - Boulder not only faced the humiliation of being 'absorbed' but a substantial part of its older area dissappeared into/out of the superpit :( SatuSuro 01:12, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I assume that also befell Brown Hill too. There used to be enough people there to have one of the 50 electorates in Parliament. Today it's empty. I'd love to get an old map and see what was there. Orderinchaos 11:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Ora Banda, Western Australia

Speaking of the goldfields, this needs some tlc. Cheers. Djanga 01:03, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bert Bolle Barometer

Western Australians may have more idea on this topic's notability than I. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 11:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

It's out

Historical_Encyclopedia_of_Western_Australia 100 dollars worth is out today - havent seen reviews of it yet - and interestingly its claim to comprehensiveness is rubbish - bit more of that if anyone is interested - the short article length renders a significant proportion of the articles useless - they dont have any system to their usage of regions - and not as tight as the wp wa project, etc etc SatuSuro 12:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

It mightn't be the most useful article source in history, but it looks potentially very useful for pinpointing a lot of holes in our coverage. Quite a bit of it just seems to be localised versions of general topics (bicycles?!?!? men's movement?!?!?), but I spot quite a few things we should have articles on. As it is, our coverage of all Australian history prior to about 1970 is pretty terrible, so it's good to have a bit of a heads-up as to where we should be looking. Rebecca (talk) 14:02, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Certainly not a bad way to form a checklist of sorts, I would think. Is it in any of the libraries? Orderinchaos 15:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

State Library search shows up a bunch of copies. Rebecca (talk) 16:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh wow, I'm at one of those libraries next week. Might take a look. Orderinchaos 16:37, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Funny somewhat related story today. I was in Battye today trying to get an item off stack to help me with Bronte Dooley. I had found the information in SLWA's catalogue. Unfortunately, for some bizarre reason, we couldn't, so the librarian turned to Google search and found my article, clicked on it and goes "Oh, that looks quite comprehensive indeed, do you want a printout?" :) Unfortunately I was looking to improve it so a hard copy of my efforts wouldn't have helped much. But was still flattering. Orderinchaos 15:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The holes are in both wikipedia and the encyclopedia - but the in between bits (like the absence of the centenary in the encyclopedia show the classic item made by a committee - where to prune and what to leave in) I would consider the compendium to tasmanian history (of which I have a copy as well) to be a superior reference item in comparison! and I would counsel against any enthusiasm for use as a checklist - when you see it you will understand - a non western australian will find it very frustrating - no lists of local government areas or regions (like we have) and very general topics with little handle on where to go next SatuSuro 03:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I know what you mean - what I was meaning was a checklist to see that we cover what they do (in addition to the many areas we cover that they don't). Orderinchaos 03:41, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

In the days when this project talk page had more regular visitors and real life wasnt in the way of most - there had been the 100 significant western australians (I will not use notable or important mind you) box and tasks related - I would suspect that of the 700 pages of short entries in the Historical UWA list - about 200 items (not pages) or so are possible gaps here in wikipedia wa project - I would be very suprised if some of the shorter entries (despite their context) would have sufficient notability or reliable sources for wikipedia to carry, or would be otherwise naturally subsumed into existing articles. SatuSuro 00:59, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Redlinks

Mornin' all,

I wrote a script to identify the most common redlinks in a category tree.

For Category:Western Australia, the most common redlink is Pithara, Western Australia, with 90 occurrences. This is not a very interesting case, as the number is heavily boosted by deployment of the {{Towns Wheatbelt South WA}} template. In fact, the majority of the top entries are redlinks in navigation templates. The most common "legitimate" redlinks seem to be the Legislative Council electoral provinces, with around 40-50 links each, from a range of politician and election articles.

If anyone is interested, the full list of double-figure redlinks is at User:Hesperian/Sandbox/Redlinks/Western Australia.

Hesperian 00:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Good work :) And I really should get around to writing the province ones. I did write one a while ago. Orderinchaos 02:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

So many rookies who fail WP:ATHLETE! Somno (talk) 01:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Inneresting

Robert_Krasker an ip placed this fella as Alexandria, Egypt birthplace - and most other stuff says Perth = just in case anyone is a better sleuth than i - to work out what is going on there - maybe the ip edit was by a rellie in the know = inneresting how things like that slip in SatuSuro 14:39, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm reverting the Aug 2008 addition. The only reference I can review or have been able to find clearly says he was born in Perth, so thats what we have to go with. The IP needs to provide a RS. –Moondyne 15:58, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Well at least someone else has had a look - my reference offline is about 20 years old - the ip edit looks like a once only and could easily have been correct but without a ref... well we cannot do it SatuSuro 12:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Nambung River

The article was tagged for merging with Geography of Western Australia. I have removed the tag but the article still needs attention. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 08:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The Cliffe

Is back the news again - my suggestion is conservative under-reporting on this issue (ie not naming names too much at this stage as it is still playing out) SatuSuro 00:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Would probably be a good idea to get an article on it. There's a tonne of stuff about it; hell, half my local paper seems to be about the ongoing battles every week. Rebecca (talk) 01:30, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Pardon my complete ignorance but what is the subject of this discussion? :) Orderinchaos 01:32, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The Cliffe, and this. –Moondyne 02:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

and The Triffids and David McComb![7] -- Mattinbgn\^talk 02:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

On things of much greater importance ...

A call to arms: There is a need for several photographs on this important article. If you're travelling through Donnybrook, Harvey, Meckering, Carnarvon or Eucla, please take a snap. –Moondyne 02:14, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:WA

Earlier today someone nicked our WP:WA shortcut, pointing it instead at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts. WT:WA still points at this talk page, however.

Do we care about the loss of this shortcut? It annoys me somewhat, but not enough for me to start a revert-war over it. I always figured we would have a fight on our hands at some point; though I had anticipated it would be with the yet-to-be-created WikiProject Washington. Of more concern to me is the loss of WT:WA, which is bound to happen eventually now that its WP: equivalent has gone.

Since I couldn't possibly bear the onerous burden of having to type in "Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia" in full every time I want to visit this page, do we want to come up with a new shortcut? Hesperian 00:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why we don't just keep WP:WA and have a note re Wikiquette alerts at the top. Orderinchaos 00:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm probably being melodramatic, but it strikes me as a microcosm of how process has become more important than content. Hesperian 00:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

That was my first thought exactly! Personally, I would send WP:WQA to the tip as a waste of valuable volunteer time. The suffocating levels of process, bureacracy and empire-building here on Wiki is suffocating and is starting to bury the whole concept of creating a free encyclopedia by providing content. This usurpation of the WP:WA short-cut is symbolic of this trend. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 01:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The sheer -centrism on the part of the mass of geographically challenged in this project encyclopeia should be challenged at every corner - that said - if orderinchaoses idea works lets keep it SatuSuro 00:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

• Note that Wikipedia:WikiProject Washington does exist with a WP:WPWA & WT:WPWA shortcut. Are more hatnotes (from both sides?) needed?The-Pope (talk) 19:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Popular pages

I'm about to sign up WP:WA to the Popular pages tool. The outcome will be listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Western Australia/Popular pages. Should be interesting to see the list.The-Pope (talk) 20:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. This (ie. Barack Obama) is understandable I suppose. I wonder what our big article will be. Any guesses? WCE perhaps?–Moondyne 01:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

It's boring, but Perth, Western Australia will be numero uno, and Western Australia will be thereabouts. Sadly, Gemma Ward will be right up there too. If anyone can be bothered tagging her in, Tahnee Atkinson will be near the top this month. I don't think West Coast Eagles will be on the radar. Hesperian 02:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I reckon Heath Ledger will smash them all. Hesperian 02:26, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Here's the number of article views for June:

Heath Ledger - 270,314

Perth, Western Australia - 65,456

Gemma Ward - 33,378

Western Australia - 31,122

West Coast Eagles - 6,713 --Melburnian (talk) 02:59, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Ahhh, data.

Bon Scott - 67766

Rove McManus - 26970

Megan Gale - 14464

Rolf Harris - 13706

Hesperian 04:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Celebrities can skew the results cygnis insignis 07:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Broome Race Riots of 1920

This new article may be of interest to contributors here. I am not sure I know enough about the topic to do anything other than tidy or wikify. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 23:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

WA radio station articles and lists of presenters

See Category:Radio stations in Perth (recent changes). I've just been bold and removed most of the "current lineup" and "notable past presenters" lists from these as they fail WP:RS and WP:NOTDIR. I suspect many are placed there by station staff as self-promotion. Some had been tagged for improvement for more than a year, and some had had tags removed (which I and others had added previously). The commercial FM stations are by far the worst. Grateful for more eyes on those articles please. –Moondyne 09:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Will try and let my eyes roam far & wide ... Dan arndt (talk) 09:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Watchlist

Hi, if people could watchlist Rockingham Shopping Centre (for spam/cruft) and Balga, Western Australia (for crass additions and POV), I would be most appreciative - I'll be away until the 12th. If anyone wants to have a go at improving them beyond my basic efforts (which were more about cleanup than writing excellent prose), feel free. Orderinchaos 00:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Edited Balga, so now watchlisted, perhaps removing the bold invitation to vandalise it. Where do I send the invoice? ;-) cygnis insignis 00:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

HEofWA

Our very own User:Davidcohen has published his review of the encyclopaedia at RottoBloggo, and he has some nice things to say about Wikipedia. Onya' Dave. –Moondyne 12:45, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Photos

I hate to nag, but there's a lot of glaring photo omissions on WA articles. See

• Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Perth, Western Australia and
• Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Western Australia

–Moondyne 12:35, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

The West

In case you missed it the The West Australian has moved from thewest,com,au to au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/ after a quick check it appears that all links to stories are now broken. Gnangarra 13:10, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

two WA-related articles at FAC

Just to let you know (and since the ArticleAlertBot is dead), there are presently two WA-related articles at FAC: Banksia prionotes and North Island (Houtman Abrolhos). Hesperian 12:31, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Pageview stats

After a recent request, I added WikiProject Western Australia to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at Wikipedia:WikiProject Western Australia/Popular pages.

The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. You can view more results, request a new project be added to the list, or request a configuration change for this project using the toolserver tool. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! Mr.Z-man 02:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Sam Worthington will be about #2 on the next pass (was just recently tagged as WA). –Moondyne 02:45, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The first Western Australian Wikipedian

I've done a bit of traipsing around in old edits, and I'm almost certain that the first Western Australian Wikipedian was WhyRossum - see this edit to his userpage from February 2001. I've known about this bit of trivia for a few weeks now but I had to wait until bug 19990 was fixed before I could properly move the old edits to his userpage. Graham87 11:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Very interesting. This dude was writing articles on how to test three phase pumps, seven months before anyone had thought to create Western Australia, and ten months before Australia. Hesperian 12:23, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Lol, I thought that was quite bizarre as well. :-) But not all the early history was saved, so the edits you mention are only the first edits to survive in the current En.wp database. There are some older edits at the Nostalgia Wikipedia, which is a copy of the Wikipedia database from December 2001; here's a version of the Australia article from 20 January 2001, which is also pretty funny in its own way. (See Wikipedia:CamelCase and Wikipedia about the title "AustraliA"). The WA article was certainly created in Sep. 2001 because of the edit summary of the first edit. Graham87 15:00, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Gosh, this is fascinating. It is more like archaeology than history. Do let us know what other artefacts you turn up. Hesperian 23:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Yep, this is fascinating stuff - I love this kind of work! Here's a bit more WA Wikipedia trivia. As far as I can tell, the first WA town to get a Wikipedia article was Margaret River, and the first part of Perth to get a Wikipedia article, besides the city itself, was ... drumroll please ... Gosnells! I found this out by checking what links to the "Local Government Areas of Western Australia" page. The what links here list is ordered by time of article creation, with the oldest page coming first, except when a page is deleted, when the software uses the time the article was re-created as a substitute. Most WA place articles use Template:Infobox Australian Place, which links to the Local Government Areas of Western Australia page, so I think this is a fairly reliable way to find out when articles on WA places were created. I've known about this for a while now, but I didn't think to mention it here; I don't have any more state secrets at the moment. :-) Graham87 07:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that method is entirely reliable; see my comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tree of life/Archive26#New pages. Hesperian 11:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Yep, all articles created when Wikipedia used UseModWiki will be listed semi-alphabetically, according to the title they had in January/February 2002, because Conversion script imported them in that order. By semi-alphabetically, I mean all the articles whose titles started with "A" in some seemingly random order, and so on with all the letters of the alphabet, then all the numbers from 1 to 9. See what links to "User:LMS", the old userpage of Larry Sanger, for examples of that. Some are wayyy out of order in that list because they were moved to different titles after 2002. Also, pages that were deleted and then undeleted will get a brand new page ID which blows another hole in the method. Cut-and-paste moves and history merges can mess up the page ID system as well. So the whatlinkshere method has plenty of flaws, but I think it works OK for articles that don't get moved around or deleted often. Graham87 15:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Meetup

Its been a while folks, is anyone interested in a meetup, I've started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Meetup/Perth/6 Gnangarra 03:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Watchlist request

Secret Harbour, Western Australia may need a watchful eye. Pruned a heap of stuff out of it tonight, restyled it and put a lengthy justification on the talk page as my actions earlier today had been challenged by the same author. It was basically Satterley advertising in its previous form. I would normally just watch it myself but I'm so inactive these days due to offline studies that it could be days before I spot something. Orderinchaos 19:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The West

The West Australian's website has recently changed to being a subset of Yahoo!7. As far as I can see, this has resulted in broken links to old news stories. We may need to review references in our articles to see if they are broken. :( - Mark 12:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Popular pages

For those who aren't watching, Wikipedia:WikiProject Western Australia/Popular pages‎ has been updated. As Moondyne prognosticated, Sam Worthington has leaped almost to the top.

This is the last time I'll mention this page here, as I am now officially over it—it is too zeitgeist for my tastes. So if you want to track it, pull your finger out and put it on your watchlist. Hesperian 00:59, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Gledden Building pictures

Hey just wondering if anyone has good pictures of the Gledden Building...Hack (talk) 02:23, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Went out and took some last weekend have added one to the article. Dan arndt (talk) 02:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

New article

Any one else see a problem with Herald Review? cygnis insignis 16:47, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. I blatted it - it was created by the journalist who stood to gain the most from it, according to the history. Orderinchaos 01:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Port Vasse and Port Leschenault

Bunbury, Western Australia says the area was formerly known as PL. I'd always understood that PV became Bunbury, and PL was the area around Australind (f.1841). Collie's and Preston's journals (late 1829) imply PL was north of PV which supports that (and that they were two separate things). I've looked for a map or a clear reference have been so far mostly unsuccessful. I am aware Koombana Bay and the harbour has been substantially reshaped in the last 30 or 40 years, including construction of the Cut, built in 1950, but I assume there has always been an opening to the sea from the L. estuary. Does anyone have some insight into this? –Moondyne 06:36, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I think Port Vasse became Busselton. Hesperian 06:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

That does make more sense-silly me. Thanks. –Moondyne 07:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Port Vasse was the early name for Busselton, Port Leschenault was always Bunbuary area - from a slum in Delhi (sigh) SatuSuro 07:07, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I must have known that but just had a "moment". Please excuse. Glad to see the Internets is working. Last time I was there I lost a few kg, so watch what you eat cobber! –Moondyne 08:30, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Haha I did that in Istanbul. Moral of that story - never eat Western food in an Eastern city - they don't eat it themselves. Orderinchaos 14:42, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

For the sake of civility - decency and gastric comfort - this conversation should now proceed to off wiki space imho SatuSuro 17:50, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Heritage WA day

Just did the tour thingies today, interesting got some internal images of the maj, town hall, st georges and the old treasury. Keep an eye for an announcement on the future of the old treasury according to the person doing the tour its going to be turned into a hotel with a highrise in its back yard to do this a section of the building will be knocked down and other parts will be gutted, only the section that contains the rooms associated with the early parliament will be retain/restored. Gnangarra 08:14, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

some names of the builders

Father Brian Morrison

I have started an article its at User:Gnangarra/Sandbox/Father Brian Morrison please help expand, I'd like to see it have enough detail to be a DYK. Gnangarra 14:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/6541621/father-brian-dies-aged-75/ Gnangarra 09:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion based on the news releases as to whether Father Brian was 75 or 76 (The West) Dan arndt (talk) 03:07, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Its now at Father Brian Morrison I left the title in the article name because that is how he is known. If anyone thinks there's enough for a DYK go for it Gnangarra 15:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

They pass quietly in the night

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_December_12&action=edit&section=5 regarding a category of suitable nature to one of unsuitable misunderstanding of western australian railway systems SatuSuro 15:08, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Paddy O'Brien

I personally think it's worth having an article on him, but don't know where to start - came up as someone is doing an article on the republic convention. Orderinchaos 22:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

There was a discussion on his notability sometime in the distance past, WRT WA Inc IIRC. User:Bjenks would remember where. –Moondyne 04:25, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

See User talk:SatuSuro/Archive 34#oh dear. –Moondyne 04:32, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Coastline of Western Australia

Has just been created which is mainly to vacate many coastal features out of the broader category Geography of Western Australia into a tighter fit - just in case anyone wondered what was going on

• Islands remain in their own category (maybe 3 or 4 are double categorised)
• Coastal towns remain in their own category (maybe again 3 or 4 are doubled up on)
• Islands Groups are located as a sub category of the coastline category

So that in the end 'geography of western australia' should in theory no longer have any coastal features in the category SatuSuro 01:09, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Toodyay fires

• http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/30/2782839.htm,
• 2009–10_Australian_bushfire_season
• Toodyay,_Western_Australia#2009_bushfire,
• and discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Australian_Wikipedians%27_notice_board - for the latest entries re this situation SatuSuro 04:41, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Earthquakes in Western Australia

Has started - any help or assistance with cleaning it up would be appreciated - there are tables and things yet to be added - anyone have a good map of wa that isnt a big yellow blob ? SatuSuro 03:27, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

careful you dont end up on shakey ground :) Gnangarra 12:28, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Intelligent maps would be more helpful :) SatuSuro 12:43, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Your best friend in this situation is the Emergency Management Australia Disasters Database: "The EMA Disasters Database contains records of all natural and non-natural disasters within Australia (where information is available) dating from 1662 to present day." Hesperian 12:45, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Found it very useful already - have used it as a ref - thanks for that - cheers and happy new year to you! SatuSuro 12:49, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Oops

Have just created a geographic category Darling Range - then thought - the article is Darling Scarp- any feedback as to whether which one it should be as a category would be appreciated. As it will be a non controversial - it should go as a speedy if I can show evidence of agreement here - cheers SatuSuro 05:08, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

The landform is a scarp, not a range, and therefore those of us with an eye to geological reality call it the Darling Scarp. Nonetheless the gazetted name of this geographic feature is Darling Range.[8] I would be inclined to move the article to Darling Range on the grounds that this is both the official name and still the most common name. Hesperian 05:15, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that - but with very strong indicators of the ambiguity - ok that is sufficient to leave the category as that - unfortunately SatuSuro 05:30, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

WP 1.0 bot announcement

This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the WP 1.0 assessment system. On Saturday, January 23, 2010, the WP 1.0 bot will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's summary table will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the WP 1.0 project homepage. — Carl (CBM · talk) 04:09, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Loosley associated with this, I've been keeping an eye on Category:Unassessed Western Australia articles and Category:Unknown-importance Western Australia articles for some time, trying to keep them both empty, or small enough to be manageable. Would someone like to take this task over? If no-one specifically volunteers, casual monitoring by the group is fine. –Moondyne 13:49, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Roger over and out, got it caught by the talkable one there with the moustache :0 (was watching the doco about monty python last night) done - will watch wodger SatuSuro 14:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)