Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 108

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A curious war

A new article Mauritania-Israel war of 1967 is up for MILHIST assessment. It is fairly straight start class but - here is the weird question - is this war notable from a military point of view? It seems to have been entirely diplomatic, featured no military activity and, allegedly, one side was not aware that it was at war with the other. So, query is - are all wars notable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Monstrelet (talk • contribs)

It's not really a war. Should be upmerged to provide better context, possibly in something like Mauritanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 1967 war articles, or Mauritania-Israel relations if that article exists. Buckshot06 (talk) 12:49, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Unless there's any disagreement, I intend to merge the whole thing into Foreign relations of Israel with a note at the relevant Mauritania article. Buckshot06 (talk) 12:54, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Anotherclown (talk) 13:01, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

:Maybe worth preserving current page as a redirect to where you place the content, to prevent accidental duplication in future?Monstrelet (talk) 13:03, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course. The redirect is not deleted - that would require going to RFD. On this note, since there's no effective WP Foreign Affairs as far as I know, I believe we should merge History of the foreign relations of Mauritania into Foreign relations of Mauritania. Any comments/thoughts? Buckshot06 (talk) 13:28, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

A-Class review for List of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross recipients (E) now open

The A-Class review for List of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross recipients (E) is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 12:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Merge discussion for 2nd Battalion, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

An article that you have been involved in editing, 2nd Battalion, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders , has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. NtheP (talk) 17:59, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

USAF template

For information the Current weapons of the United States Air Force navbox (actually called USAF weapons) has been nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2011 December 27#Template:USAF weapons. MilborneOne (talk) 22:42, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

May Revolution

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/May Revolution, a current A-Class nomination, is likely to be closed in a pair of days or so. So far, there had been just two reviews. May I ask someone else to have a look at it? Either to pass the nomination or to fail it with a clear idea of things to fix would be a better outcome than a nomination failed because of lack of reviews during the month Cambalachero (talk) 00:45, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Academy

Hello everyone. As mentioned in this month's Bugle, there is also an ongoing effort to complete and standardize the Academy, Milhist's effort to create an online training school to assist all editors, old and new. Some ideas for missing articles can be seen in the redlinks here, but ideas, possibly including the redlinks, for what is missing from the current Academy page are needed. Thoughts? Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 10:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Just one: rename the "handling FAC" redlink to "getting handled by FAC". - Dank (push to talk) 15:10, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I have not got a suggestion for what's missing, but would like to raise the issue of what is appropriate. To cut to the chase, is Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Academy/Becoming an Administrator really something that should be part of the academy? Becoming an admin isn't specifically a Milhist issue and my impression was that the academy was there to provide advice for editors who wanted to improve their articles, not gather user rights. There are plenty of other user essays out there offering advice to admin hopefuls, what does this add to people from WP:Milhist? Nev1 (talk) 15:16, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Also, if you show up at RfA saying that you followed some guide to becoming an admin, that will definitely count against you. - Dank (push to talk) 16:46, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Nev. Shouldn't be part of the Academy, as it's too broad for Milhist. Buggie111 (talk) 18:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Then delete it. No sense in having it if we do not need it. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:54, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Well now, there's something to be said for a guide that explains what adminship is, just not in Milhist. Would you like to make that a user essay, Tom? Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 07:18, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Assistance Requested at West Point Cadets' Sword‎

Can some members of this project please help at West Point Cadets' Sword‎? An eager new contributor very much wants to add lots of material to this article. I've tried to provide guidance but my patience is wearing thin. He is very good-natured but my suggestions don't seem to be making much of an impact so I think it's time for others to step in to see they can help more than I can. Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 09:51, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Decisive victories

There is currently a discussion here on the use of the term “decisive” to describe the victory.
Are there any guidelines on the use of the term “decisive” in infoboxes (or elsewhere) to describe victories (or defeats come to that)? Has this been discussed here before? (I feel I’ve seen it on article talk pages before, but can’t think of any at the moment) Xyl 54 (talk) 20:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

HMS New Zealand FAC needs reviewers

The Featured Article Candidacy for HMS New Zealand needs reviewers. Please stop by and offer your comments.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:59, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

First new History A-class review

I have opened the first History A-class review in a while; it's for Ionian islands under Venetian rule. DCI traveling Talk 21:17, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

The History A-class reviews can be found here: Wikipedia:History Review Department/A-class review. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 21:55, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

How to stop an IP editor?

How do I stop an unknown IP editor from repeatedly changing the article Alfred-Karl Smidt without presenting new references. My sources which are listed in the article clearly name him as Alfred-Karl Smidt, sometimes only called Karl Smidt. MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:57, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, we could always protect it but I'd rather you try to start a discussion with the IP on the article's talk page first, after leaving them a courtesy note on their talk page. Also note that I redirected Karl Smidt to this article based on your reading of the sources. The IP used WP:AFC and the reviewer didn't check or notice the duplicate article (which is worrisome for copyright issues – not even Googling one random phrase? – but that's an aside). I've left them a note about it. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 07:14, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

After I had a look at the sources the IP used and the focus on the awards within the article I would say ask de:Benutzer:PimboliDD in the german Wikipedia if he is this IP. --Bomzibar (talk) 14:13, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually the IP editor is his grandson. I am in contact with him via email. He provided sufficient evidence that he is correct and that the books are wrong. MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:26, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

At most of the books I wouldn't wonder if this is true. --Bomzibar (talk) 14:51, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

From perusing the German page and the references etc. it appears that his name really is Karl (or Karl E.) Smidt. Don't see where the problem lies. Hohenloh ⁺ 15:40, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

And this is why discussion between edit-warring editors can be helpful. :-) Nice job MB, I'm glad this was worked out successfully. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 07:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

NARA on-wiki ExtravaSCANza participation

Please see User:The ed17/NARA to brainstorm ideas and a structure on how we can help make the National Archives ExtravaSCANza a success, in the hope that such events will continue in the future. Thanks, Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 09:49, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Operation Locker

Operation Locker, which aims to provide comprehensive coverage of all ships lost during the period 1939-45 has been launched. Assistance from members of this WikiProject in achieving that aim is welcome. Please discuss this project at the relevant talk page. Mjroots (talk) 15:46, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

A-Class review for Battle of Arawe now open

The A-Class review for Battle of Arawe is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Nick-D (talk) 06:36, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Citation help

For the past few days I have been editing the Lewis Nicola article, and I am a bit confused on how I am supposed to cite certain things. One in particular is letters. I found this, a letter from George Washington to Lewis Nicola, at the Library of Congress, but I do not know which cite template to use, so I picked cite web. I was hoping someone at the Military history WikiProject would be able to help. Thanks in advance!
—Michael Jester (talk · contribs) 10:25, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Cite web is generally appropriate in situations like this. I've used it to reference primary sources in online collections in featured articles without any complaints. The Lewis Nicola article is looking really good by the way. Nick-D (talk) 10:31, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the quick reply, Nick. Also, thanks for the clarity and compliment!
—Michael Jester (talk · contribs) 10:57, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Problem with shipclass template

The {{sclass}} is producing a dab problem when linking to minesweepers. Aparrently the ship type is not the primary article on Wikipedia, but is located at minesweeper (ship). I don't want to see Bangor-class minesweeper (ship) displayed as a link all over Wikipedia. (the correct link is Bangor-class minesweeper) Therefore it would seem that the template needs to be tweaked to produce the correct link so that minesweeper displays as a single word and links to the article on the ship type. Anyone have any idea on how to do this? Mjroots (talk) 11:13, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Apparently also happening with cutter. Mjroots (talk) 11:21, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't it already do this? The template has a section about disambiguated terms and how to deal with them. NtheP (talk) 13:31, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, so there's a workround, but that isn't what I was asking. Is it possible to tweak the template for known cases so that one doesn't have to remember a long list of links which need a dab and those that don't. IMHO, the ship type should be the primary use of minesweeper, and the stuff currently listed under that title should be housed at Minesweeper (disambiguation). Mjroots (talk) 18:17, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Totally agree that the primary use for minesweeper should be the ship type. I don't know how many other ship types are affected, cutter for example might be harder to make out as a primary topic. NtheP (talk) 18:42, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I've raised the issue at WP:RM. Mjroots (talk) 06:35, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

You would struggle with Monitor (warship) as well. Benea (talk) 06:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

The distinct smell of essay...

...comes from this. Should it be prodded or is it potentially salvagable? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:41, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Prod with no mercy. Buggie111 (talk) 14:49, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

You dare agree with me?! Prepare to meet your horrible DOOM!! ;) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:57, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class review for Thomas J. Hudner, Jr. now open

The A-Class review for Thomas J. Hudner, Jr. is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 02:45, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class review for Jesse L. Brown now open

The A-Class review for Jesse L. Brown is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 02:45, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Unusual problem

So, I'm trying to use this book for some articles, but the pages don't have numbers. Not only are they unnumbered in print, but electronic copies seem to ignore page numbers completely and it's impossible to tell where I am in the book. If it were a small book I'd just count manually, but it's 352 pages long. Any ideas on how I can use it as a source? —Ed!^(talk) 04:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Does the book have identifiable chapters? If so, just quote the chapter number/title. If not, just give the page number as "not cited". Mjroots (talk) 06:25, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Chapters with paragraph numbers are probably the best way to go. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 07:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

B class Assessment Backlogs

I don't know who is helping me with the backlogs of the 26,395 that require "B class" to be completed. I appreciate the help whoever they maybe. I'm sure a few weeks ago, it was around 26,750 B class unassessed articles for our WikiProject, we are doing a good job. Once again keep up the good work and it'll be down to around 26,100 by the end of January next year. Honestly, I am amazed how many the people who have helped me get through this backlog. The reason why I am leaving the American Civil War articles is because I'm getting the Conpendium the 3 Volume set which are on about 530 articles of the American Civil War, that is why I'm not doing those articles quite yet. Once again I appreciate the help with the backlog and anything in return that I'm able to do, feel free to ask on my Discussion page! Adamdaley (talk) 17:08, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Anytime--MOLEY (talk) 01:45, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I can help with some as well. I noticed there are quite a few non-articles (such as Categories) that contain the B-Class checklist and I will start by removing them. That should reduce the list by 50 to 100 right off. I have also wondered what the value of having the B-Class checklist on stubs was. If an article is assessed as a stub it sorta goes without saying that it probably doesn't meet more than 1 or 2 of the criteria. --Kumioko (talk) 16:35, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

The checklist isn't supposed to appear on stubs or non-article pages. If you see any instances of it showing up on those, please let me know, as that most likely points to a bug in the auto-assessment code. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 16:39, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Is this an automated thing, Kirill? While I know this is policy, I've come across stubs with B class lists before so I've assumed they can be inserted manually. BTW, is a start without a B class checklist at all count as an incomplete? Monstrelet (talk) 18:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I guess all the non article ones were cleared out. I only found about 5 and fixed those. I have also seen many many stubs with the checklist but I don't know if it generates the categories or not. --Kumioko (talk) 18:54, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

The checklist can be manually added to stubs, but it should only be displayed and generate categories once the article moves up to Start-Class. In particular, the "missing B-Class checklist" category shouldn't include any stubs; if it does, that's a bug in the template. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 19:28, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking about something that might help speed this up. WikiProject Aviation and a couple of other also use B class checklists and often times they are populated when ours is not. I could rather easily program something that could inherit the B-class criteria from another WikiProject, Say WPAviation for example so that if ours was blank then it would populate with the other templates data. Of course this won't work for everyone and there is of course a degree of error but I thought I would mention it anyway in case there was interest in doing something like this. The same is also true of some other things as well. For example, if the article contained an Unref or refimprove tag then we could populate the appropriate B-Class section with No. --Kumioko (talk) 04:35, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

better to check by eye and cut and paste the checklist rather than assume that the other checklist was filled out correctly and that there haven't been constructive/destructive edits to the page since the assessment was made. Instead how about a category of "articles with B-class checklist from another project", or "category with differing assessments". GraemeLeggett (talk) 13:05, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

If someone is doing WikiProject Military History "B class" sometimes there are "B class" on other WikiProjects so it is quick to check at their WikiProject and add the "B class" unassessed and leave a note on their page about the "B class" on whatever the article is. That's team work! Adamdaley (talk) 15:02, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

We are certainly going down quickly with the numbers! At the moment there is 26,128. I hope by the end of this year we'll be 26,000 "B class" assessments left. I feel that the people who have helped not only write new articles for our WikiProject but have the faith in us to help them in return they do their best to make a good article. With the backlogs, those who have helped, I cannot take all the credit, I would like to just say that I hope I gave others the incentive and motivation to help get the backlog numbers down to a reasonable standard that "we" as WikiProject are happy with. All of you deserve a Barnstar for your work, whoever you maybe! Adamdaley (talk) 17:52, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I'll try over Christmas to ensure everything on my watchlist has its B class list filled in (where class-appropriate). I haven't got the biggest watchlist, so it shouldn't be hard. Perhaps others would like to have a go at this too? The advantage of starting from your watchlist being you actually have some chance of being able to make a fair assessment where subject specific criteria are in use (particularly B2).Monstrelet (talk) 11:12, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Any chance we'll see another B-class assessment drive any time soon? That could always help. —Ed!^(talk) 18:37, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

I would support another assessment drive like the one done in March 2011 (although due to personal commitments I probably won't be able help with coordinating). It could be set up the same way, with points awarded for criteria met on articles, and awards given at the end of the month. If enough interest is generated perhaps, it could be made into an annual event. Wild Wolf (talk) 01:45, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. This is a problem that tends to creep back slowly after drives. It does need a periodic cleaning. —Ed!^(talk) 21:42, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I can get to it tommorrow. Buggie111 (talk) 21:44, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

So when will this contest get started? 76.7.231.130 (talk) 01:00, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Someone is getting this contest started, right? 76.7.231.130 (talk) 15:16, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

We're talking about something in March, if I'm not mistaken. Certainly, a major drive of this sort is going to need a bit more than a day's worth of planning. ;-) Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 02:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Just checking something. I've done a few B class lists today. I've been doing Medieval battles in particular. I've come across four so far which claim to be incomplete and aren't (out of about ten). Is someone else working on these and the backlog is not keeping up or is there a glitch in the bot that checks whether the list is filled in? Monstrelet (talk) 17:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

List of World War II firearms of Germany

I have been going through the lists of WWII weaponry and have seen misrepresentation of weapons. Germany did utilize much of the captured weaponry it acquired during WWII but to say many of the weapons are firearms of Germany is extreme to me. I was planning on turning the list into an article for weapons adopted by the German military and not the hodgepodge of weapons listed. Should the captured weapons get their own list? I personally think the list should be split because technically any weapon a soldier picks up and fires is a Firearm of Germany by current standards. Input would be appreciated. --MOLEY (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

iMO, captured weapons aren't "weapons of Germany". "Used by Germany", yes. They don't belong on the same list. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 23:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Except I'd assume the list would be "firearms used". Perhaps a seperate "Captured weapons" sub-section? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:02, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm also not convinced weapons captured by Germany deserve their own article, unless Germany significantly modified them into new weapons. Using captured equipment is common to all wars. —Ed!^(talk) 01:04, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm with Ed!; captured weapons don't deserve a separate article or even a subsection as that would include most every firearm in Europe.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:11, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I did work on the topic in my sandbox here. If you look at every pistol ever utilized by German forces it begins to look like a list of every pistol made in Europe. I already inserted the pistols purposely made for Germany in the List of World War II firearms of Germany.--MOLEY (talk) 02:23, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

"Except I'd assume the list would be 'firearms used'". I wouldn't. I take it to be "made by" or "issued to armed forces of", with the second being the preferred cut IMO. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 02:28, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

A list like this would be further confounded by the variety of weapons, especially later in the war when some in the German Army had to use personal weapons, and we'll probably never find reliable sources to complete the list. —Ed!^(talk) 14:02, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

The problem with this is that if it is limited to weapons issued to the German forces, there are some units that were issued and used mainly captured weapons. Just being devil's advocate here. Peacemaker67 (talk) 00:03, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Talk:West Point Cadets' Sword

Talk:West Point Cadets' Sword (edit | article | history | links | watch | logs) needs cleanup, Andy2159 (talk · contribs) keeps deleting the talk page, by my count, it has been wiped atleast 3 times, without being archived. Can someone go through the history and properly archive it per WP:TALK (WP:ARCHIVENOTDELETE) ? 76.65.128.132 (talk) 09:31, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't mean to be be unkind, but is anything stopping you from doing that? Or asking Andy to do it on his talk page? Nick-D (talk) 09:50, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Some Page Patrollers seem to think archiving talk pages is equivalent to vandalism, so I don't archive large amounts of material from talk pages anymore (Why are you doing that? Why is an IP editor doing maintenance? Stop doing that, anonymous editors are not allowed to do maintenance.) There's also a bot running that will revert major archivals anyways, so there's no point in an IP editor doing that.

As Andy has been warned by a patroller before for blanking the talk page, but repeated the action, it didn't seem the productive pathway to take.

76.65.128.132 (talk) 11:26, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes it does need to be cleaned up and I have put a lot of work on it this weekend discussion page. Yes I have deleted this page a few times, I did not know that it could of been archived if I knew I would of done it correctly. The reason I deleted the information was I could no longer enter any new information. I do not remember being warned about anything but an image that I posted with the copy right information incorrectly entered in the correct fields. I'm been on this site for a long time and I do have problems with the way things are formatted in Wikipidia, its a handicap and I'm working on it but my intent is to work with in the system not against it.Andy2159 (talk) 05:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Reliability of www.axishistory.com

G'day all. Could I get some views of experienced editors on the reliability of axishistory.com? I have read a short discussion on archives several years ago, but wanted to get a current view. Thanks. Peacemaker67 (talk) 05:19, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As far as I'm aware, its still not considered a reliable source. It doesn't say where its content is sourced from or who wrote it. I haven't seen the site referenced in serious history books. Nick-D (talk) 05:31, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

No, see [1]. He is not a published author or scholar in the relevant field. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 05:33, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Depends case by case, it is not reliable source in itself directly however some of the articles within the site are properly sourced, see for example [2] or [3]. That being said i would probably use it only as a reference as to which actual sources to find from library or elsewhere instead of actually citing the site itself. - Wanderer602 (talk) 10:08, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks all. Peacemaker67 (talk) 00:05, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

GA Review of Russian battleship Petropavlovsk (1897)

I'm currently reviewing Russian battleship Petropavlovsk (1897) article. As the article uses mainly offline sources as reference, I need some help with verification. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 16:07, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class review for Battle of Radzymin (1920) now open

The A-Class review for Battle of Radzymin (1920) is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 13:20, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class review for Battle of Bautzen (1945) now open

The A-Class review for Battle of Bautzen (1945) is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 13:20, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class review for HMS Argus (I49) now open

The A-Class review for HMS Argus (I49) is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

FAC for Nyon Conference

FAC now open, any further input appreciated! Thanks, Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 19:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Mil map abbreviations

Quick translation question. What are the English abbreviations for infantry division, panzer/armored division, guard (army, division, corps)? This is related to those maps. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 23:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

current NATO abbreviation or the abbreviations used at the time? Peacemaker67 (talk) 00:00, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Not an easy one, unless you use NATO abbrevs. They are Inf Div (or ID), Pz/Armd Div (or AD), Gd Army, Gd Div, Gd Corps. Depends on how much room you've got whether you use the full abbrev. It'd be clearer using the slightly longer version unless you were going to add a legend to the map. I'll dig up a ref. Peacemaker67 (talk) 00:34, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Here's a ref with abbreviations of the Soviet ones. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=33g3ujB6mAoC&pg=PR30&lpg=PR30&dq=guards+division+soviet+abbreviation&source=bl&ots=H17p9ZXJKl&sig=hqUyOuT2T45CFdL-4Gyo9tt-_Ak&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uaEDT4-SFYSaiQeKqPizBg&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=guards%20division%20soviet%20abbreviation&f=false, and a contemporary American translation of German terms. http://downloads.sturmpanzer.net/mlw/GermanMilitaryAbbreviations.pdf Hope they help. Peacemaker67 (talk) 00:54, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone add anything to these?

• Bobby Royle, Alf Williamson, Alex Duncan, Tommy Corrigan, Mal Kennedy (footballer), Jim Park, Harold Parker (footballer), Lewis Blackmore, and Jack Shelton. Thanks. Lindsay658 (talk) 07:14, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

US and CS Navy ship images up for deletion

Several USN and CS Navy ship images have been placed for deletion as providing no source. The description pages show a claim of US government ownership of the images. See Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2012 January 3 -- 76.65.128.132 (talk) 07:54, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Do we run separate Milhist Peer Reviews anymore

I'm confused - I cannot find the Milhist Peer Review instructions. Do we run there separately anymore, or do we just use the main PR process? Buckshot06 (talk) 00:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

G'day, Buckshot, the Milhist peer review system was rolled up a little while ago. We now use the main process here: Wikipedia:Peer review. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 00:53, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks - good to confirm that. Buckshot06 (talk) 12:09, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

And there are shorter lists you can look at that hopefully will include all the Milhist reviews: the history-related articles at WP:PR, which you can view at WP:PRH, and various Milhist templates, such as {{WPMILHIST Review alerts/Enhanced}}. - Dank (push to talk) 12:50, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Islam and war

Article has been brought to the attention of WP:RSN because of discussion as to whether Andrew Bostom is an appropriate source. But the article seems to need an enormous amount of attention: sourcing, structure, NPOV, formatting. It isn't in your WikiProject at the moment and if it is to be kept I'm sure you will think that it is in scope. I'm also posting on WikiProject Islam, as it would seem that a lot of eyes are needed. Regards. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Peer review for Lewis Nicola now open

The peer review for Lewis Nicola is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 19:20, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Battle of Tali-Ihantala RfC

Hello WP MilHist editors - if you have a spare moment, your comment is requested over at the MedCab mediation on the Battle of Tali-Ihantala, which I am mediating. We've run into a small issue that I think would be resolved best by outside comment, and I would appreciate it if you could go over and take a look. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 03:15, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class review for Roy Dowling now open

The A-Class review for Roy Dowling is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Ian Rose (talk) 06:29, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Category:Royal Air Force stations in England

Having a tidy up yesterday and removed the Category:Royal Air Force stations in England parent cat from RAF stations included directly in the England category as they were all in the sub-cats for individual counties. It seem to have annoyed User:Hugo999 who has been adding the England cat to qoute from my talk page I added that for a reason, so that articles on English RAF stations can be found wothout having to know or hunt through the “county” subcategories. Hugo999 also uses the fact that an "Allincluded" tag is available then that is an acceptable practice. If users have to use the England or country cat rather than county cats then perhaps the argument is why use the sub-cats at all. We cant have every cat in the tree on an article you could argue they should also all be in the United Kingdom cat if users dont known the England/Wales/Scotland/Ireland split. Just looking for opinions, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 13:11, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Strongly support your opinion, MilborneOne - otherwise we may as well abandon the whole hierachical category structure (!) Buckshot06 (talk) 19:33, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Buckshot06. There is a good reason for having a category hierarchy (usually size). Mjroots (talk) 15:39, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I objected to the removal of the tag “non-diffusing category” for the main category Category:Royal Air Force stations in England; it is a recognised Wiki tag. The purpose of having RAF stations in the main category as well as the subcategories for RAF stations by county (or former county in the case of Yorkshire) is so that articles eg for RAF Little Snoring could be found without having to know that it is in Norfolk. I was not proposing to add eac RAF station in England to “every” category, just two. This is done for various categories where the main category has a significant number of subcategories eg Category:Royal Air Force stations in England, or where most articles are in the main category with a few in two or three small subcategories eg Category:Bridges in New York City (see for templates used). Hence there is no need to hunt through a significant number of subcategories for an article. There is no problem in navigating say 480 articles for all RAF stations in England, with a template to go directly to the initial letter (see for exampleCategory:Royal Air Force officers). Only with Category:Living persons containing over 552,000 articles and the need to use a template based on the first two letters does finding names take some time. PS: I have been moving RAF station articles from Category:World War II airfields (which at present is largely RAF stations) to Category:Royal Air Force stations of World War II in the United Kingdom; as “in the United Kingdom” seems an adequate breakdown for WWII. This means that they apear as a subcategory of Category:World War II sites in the United Kingdom. USAAF airfields in the UK is also a subcategory. Hugo999 (talk) 21:56, 5 January 2012 (UTC) PS: For more on this recognised Wiki policy, see

.

I am sorry but I dont see any support here for this approach on using parent cats in this instance, users can use the list of RAF stations to find any station that they are interested in not the parent category. Just because we have a non-diffusing category tag for exceptional use doesnt allow it to be used without consensus which you dont appear to have. As nearly every RAF station was in use in world war two they are also all in Category:Royal Air Force stations of World War II in the United Kingdom which doesnt make it a particularly defining category but better than the world war II airfields. MilborneOne (talk) 20:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Rename Russian and Soviet military history task force

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force Mike Cline (talk) 13:21, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

---

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Russian and Soviet military history task force → Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Russian, Soviet and Commonwealth of Independent States military history task force – If the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Russian and Soviet military history task force includes the military history of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) states after 1991 the task force should be renamed to the NPOV name: Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Russian, Soviet and Commonwealth of Independent States military history task force. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 13:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support. See above. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:24, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Seems like a good idea, since the task force covers wars in the CIS where neither Russia nor the Soviet Union participated. I cannot think of any reason not to change the name. Nanobear (talk) 17:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support with proviso: CIS please. Adding 'Commonwealth of Independent States' is a awful long name. Buckshot06 (talk) 18:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Comment why not Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Russian, Soviet and CIS task force ? There's no need to repeat "military history", since it is a MilHist task force, and a subpage as well, and as it isn't an article, I don't see the need to expand the acronym. 76.65.128.132 (talk) 04:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Repeating "military history" in every task force name is actually quite deliberate; in many places (such as the WP1.0 ratings tables, the assessment categories, etc.) the task force is identified only by its name, not by its parent project. Without the inclusion of the "military history" in the name, we'll wind up with things like "B-Class Russian, Soviet and CIS articles", which gives the average viewer no indication whatsoever that the articles in question have anything to do with military history. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 06:44, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support rename to "Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force"; given that the task force's scope already includes the military affairs of the entire CIS, I don't see any reason not to mention it in the name as well. As Buckshot points out, however, "CIS" is far more manageable than the full title as far as the length of the resulting name is concerned. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 06:44, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support CIS name, seems obvious. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 07:01, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support – go for it.. whatever works. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 20:29, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - including the CIS should simply be WP:COMMONSENSE, we don't need to spell out every little thing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:19, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• What about Georgia, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania? Buckshot06 (talk) 18:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

The Baltic states have there own Military task force; according to the current Scope Georgia is not covert in the "Russian and Soviet military history task force anyhow"... (maybe events that happened before 18 August 2008?). Something strange with the Scope anyway since it states: the military histories of the other pre-Soviet states are not included if they cannot be considered Russian. Of course the only military historie that can be considered Russian is the Russian one (since 1991)... That should be rephrased in "cannot be considered connected to the Commonwealth of Independent States" (not?). The question if Georgia belongs in the "Russian and Soviet military history task force" is something that can be separately discussed. I do not mind the name "Russian, Soviet and CIS and Georgia military history task force" . I would not mind the creation of separate task forces for all CIS countries but I am afraid they will be just as unfruitful as the WikiProject Crimea I once started and it probably would divide knowledge rather the adding knowledge to the different taskforces. Somebody wants to start a “Georgia military history task force"? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 19:24, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• This seems long. What about abbreviating it to "Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force"? -Fnlayson (talk) 18:56, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Support'. Fine by me! — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 19:25, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• Yulia, would you consider the euphemism 'Newly Independent States' - all fifteen republics? Do people think that 'Russia, Soviet, and NIS' would be a good idea? Buckshot06 (talk) 19:30, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd say no. There are many definitions of newly (year, decade, century), while CIS is the official name. Buggie111 (talk) 19:43, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

NIS states is also a problem since the Baltic states have there own Taskforce... "'Russia, Soviet, and Post-Soviet republics as of 1939" would sound really strange to most.... I would rather stick with CIS... The Balticas where never a member of CIS. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 20:20, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment: it seems a very long name. What about just "russian military history task force" and clarify the scope in the lead section? After all, "Russians" can be either meant to be for citizens of Russia or for the whole group of people living in countries of russian heritage. Just clarify it's the later, and that's it. After all, this is not WikiProject Russia but a military history wikiproject (with the word "history" in it), so it shouldn't be strange for anyone if we take a "historical" perspective Cambalachero (talk) 19:56, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Most people living in CIS states are not ethnic Russian.... Declaring all Post Soviet sytates as states that are "of Russian heritage" is highly POV... Maybe calling South America of Spanish heritage is no problem but I can positively say that I will have no problem in finding millions of Ukrainians who do not like to be called "of Russian heritage"... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 20:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

This all seems very uncontroversial (especially as these task forces are essentially defunct). I'm not sure why it went to a vote in the first instance, but meh. Nick-D (talk) 06:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

To be honest Nick I completely agree with you. But it's in human nature to care about how things are designated .. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:57, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

A name that better represents the scope is likley to atract more members of the taskforce. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 20:20, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Source spotcheck help requested

Greetings and thanks to MILHIST members for help thus far with the FAC of Boeing 767, an aircraft with military applications. The review is nearing completion, but needs a contributor to perform source spotchecks (check select citations to verify article text). Links, PDFs, scans/images have already been prepared for convenience, and are ready to be provided. Thanks in advance for any assistance. Sincerely, SynergyStar (talk) 23:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Source check has already been done, no longer needed. SynergyStar (talk) 22:48, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Norwegian book about militarization violations of the Svalbard Treaty

The book Satellittkrigen, published in 2011, has been reviewed in Finansavisen (2011-12-31 "Selvrettferdig flisespikkeri" page 35 ): "[The book] Manages to substantiate the probability [sannsynliggjøre] that Norway does not abide by treaties regarding the militarization of Svalbard and Antarctica".

That review also states that the book has been reviewed by Klassekampen and Ny Tid.

Other links,

• "Claims that SvalSat is being used in warfare - The satellites are used for military purposes, in violation of the Svalbard Treaty, claims a new book about the attractive commercial satellite station SvalSat. The satellites have also been used in the warfare in Libya."
• No one controlling downloaded data from the satellites (Svalbard's head of law enforcement, Sysselmannen, is of the opinion that the oversight at SvalSat is good, despite that there is no control (ingen kontrollerer) of the stream of data from the satellites.
• Hevder Svalbard brukes til spionasje

(Links to Danish and Norwegian wikipedia articles regarding the Svalbard Satellite Station, [4], [5].

Is the book notable for an article?--Chadburrey (talk) 11:38, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Much better to create an English wikipedia article on the Svalbard Satellite Station, and add the information there. Buckshot06 (talk) 18:44, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Opposition against merging the article about the book with an article about the satellite ground station

I have created the article Satellittkrigen. I think that the book is notable in its own right, and should not be merged with a future article about the satellite ground station.

The following text is probably all notable, and belongs in the article about the book (but all of the text about the reviews, might not belong in an article about the Svalbard Satellite Station:

"Satellittkrigen is a Norwegian book published in 2011, written by Bård Wormdal.

In it the author claims that Norway is still using Svalbard for military purposes that breach the Svalbard Treaty.

The book's title is made up of two Norwegian words, their meanings being "satellite" and "the war".

Svalbard Satellite Station is still being used for espionage and warfare, in violation with the Svalbard Treaty, the book claims.

The law enforcement, Sysselmannen, has resources at its disposal to enforce the Svalbard Treaty — equalling one 50 % position of employment (et halvt årsverk).

Finansavisen in its review of the book, said that it "Manages to substantiate the probability [sannsynliggjøre] that Norway does not abide by treaties regarding the militarization of Svalbard and Antarctica".

The book has also been reviewed by Klassekampen and Ny Tid. "--Chadburrey (talk) 14:25, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

References

Featured article candidacy for South American dreadnought race now open

The featured article candidacy for South American dreadnought race is now open. Comments from reviewers are needed to help determine whether the article meets the criteria for featured articles; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 09:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

USNS Montana?

I've come across a reference to a USN tanker named Montana. was this an SS Montana or a USNS Montana? Mjroots (talk) 12:03, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The USNS designation didn't come into being until the creation of the Military Sea Transportion Service (now Military Sealift Command) after World War II; before that any ship that wasn't a commissioned naval vessel (USS) was simply SS (or occasionally MV). During the war there was no tanker 'Montana' in the Naval Vessel Register (the name in fact was assigned to a battleship that was never built); see United States Navy oiler. --Solicitr (talk) 14:58, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Which begs the question "which ship did John Morgan collide with?" Anyone know? Mjroots (talk) 19:44, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Could it have been SS Montana (1942)?

Featured article candidacy for German battleship Bismarck now open

The featured article candidacy for German battleship Bismarck is now open. Comments from reviewers are needed to help determine whether the article meets the criteria for featured articles; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Parsecboy (talk) 23:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class review for Ionian islands under Venetian rule open

You are still welcome to participate in the first new review of the restructured Review Department of WikiProject History. The reviews can be found here: WP:History Review Department/A-class review. DCItalk 00:27, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Portal:History up for FPC

Blah blah blah, required canvassing, blah blah, there. ResMar 03:49, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Featured article candidacy for Hector Waller now open

The featured article candidacy for Hector Waller is now open. Comments from reviewers are needed to help determine whether the article meets the criteria for featured articles; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Ian Rose (talk) 05:15, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Comparison of the AK-47 and M16

Not my area at all but I just noticed Comparison of the AK-47 and M16, I though the general idea was that we do not do comparisons but this appears to have survived a number of attempts to delete! MilborneOne (talk) 19:46, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, we've deleted several attempts to create "Comparison of the Iowa class and Yamato class" (or something like that). I feel like this falls under the same umbrella, but the last AfD was unanimous in saying "keep". Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 20:51, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflice) Surprising given the large amount of synth and OR required to assemble it! I see a lot of specifics referenced but very little appears to be comparisons made by experts. The previous discussions seem to not been based sufficiently on policy to succeed. GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:57, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

How about creating an article about the TV program(series?) "Great Battles: AK-47 vs M16", Military Channel documentary, and then merging the discussed article into this.

The program probably makes notable claims, and notable contradictory claims from the discussed article, can be merged?--Chadburrey (talk) 11:50, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

looks like a refight of Vietnam to me. Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:48, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

...as well as rehashing a longstanding Internet flame war. Good troll bait.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 14:09, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

It reminds me of the furore surrounding Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparison between Roman and Han Empires (2nd nomination) (the article eventually got completely rewritten and moved to a new title). IMO comparative articles are prone to struggle from issues of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Nev1 (talk) 14:46, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I've tagged the article for OR. I'd also suggest a merge. Buggie111 (talk) 14:21, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

• Wiki does not prohibit comparisons
• The Iowa class and Yamato class battleships never engaged in battle. Also, the Yamato’s rest at the bottom of the ocean and the Iowa’s are museums. So, they will never face each other. Therefore, any comparison has no encyclopedic or historic value, as it would be speculative, at best.
• The AK-47 and M16 type rifles have faced each other on battlefields around the world for 50+ years and continue to do so to this day. It clearly has encyclopedic and historic value, especially to those who are fighting for their lives and are looking for any advantage to kill their opposite.
• The AK-47 vs M16 debate has been the subject of many comparisons in magazine articles, books, government documents, etc. Also, as “Chadburrey” pointed out TV programs and as “Berean Hunter” stated Internet debate. This comparison survives all attempts to delete because the Wiki users (or us trolls) have shown an interest in the article. Therefore, the AK-47 vs M16 comparison clearly has both encyclopedic and historic value.
• Expert “opinions” are often anecdotal and by their nature bias, and as such may violate Wiki bias policy. Therefore, the comparison states the facts, specifications, historical background and significant events. This comparison is also one of the most heavily referenced articles on Wiki. Therefore, the comparison provides the information necessary to allow the readers draw their own conclusion. Again, this falls within Wiki policy guidelines.
• The AK-47 and M16 faced off for first time during the Vietnam War. Therefore, the comparison must start with the Vietnam War. Then follow the evolution of both systems, in a measure vs counter-measure chronological format. As stated earlier both systems and their descendents are still in use around the world today.
• Merging with a single one-hour TV program on the Military Channel that draws conclusions would be foolish and violate Wiki bias policy. Also, this assumes that the program is the only definitive source of information. When in reality the program draws information from various “unknown” and “unverifiable” sources, which would violate Wiki reference policy. Whereas, published sources are fully reference and can be independently verified by the reader. This allows the readers draw their own conclusions.
• Any talk of deleting this article should be done on the AK-47 vs M16 discussion page. Where the average user (or us trolls) has the ability to read and express their opinions. Not here in the back-room. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 (talk) 05:55, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Anyone interested in photos from these military history museums in Europe?

I'm in the process of going through the photos I took during my recent(ish) trip to Europe to identify ones which would be useful on Wikicommons, and am wondering if anyone has any requests from the following museums I visited and took lots of photos of:

• Dutch Navy Museum (photos of all ships and many exhibits and buildings)
• Nederlands Scheepvaartmuseum (Netherlands Maritime Museum - some photos of the interior taken a few days after it re-opened). As a travel tip, this museum isn't very good, and is massively over-priced.
• Bundeswehr Military History Museum, Dresden (limited photos of the interior, and lots of the exterior, including the large display of tanks next to the building)
• Königstein Fortress
• Monument to the Battle of the Nations, Leipzig (lots of photos, but most of them aren't very good as the weather was turning nasty)
• Les Invalides, Paris including the Army museum (limited photos)
• Bayeux Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemetery (lots of photos)
• Mémorial de Caen (lots of photos)
• Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial (lots of photos)
• Pointe du Hoc (some photos)
• Royal Air Force Museum London (photos of most of the aircraft on display and some exterior shots)
• National Army Museum, London (some photos)

For the record, I did go to lots and lots of non-military history related places :p Nick-D (talk) 05:39, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

If it works, I'd love to see some D-day-related photos on 29th Infantry Division (United States), 2nd Ranger Battalion (United States) and 5th Ranger Battalion (United States)...good illustrations for Pointe du Hoc and Normandy landings relevant to those units is surprisingly difficult to find online :P —Ed!^(talk) 09:02, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

You're in luck: I visited the Charlie (westernmost) sector of Omaha Beach where C Company, 2nd Ranger Battalion landed, and took photos looking east towards Dog Green sector where the elements of the 29th Landed. Nick-D (talk) 10:18, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Do you have any photos of aircraft or submarines? --Sp33dyphil ©^hat_ontributions 10:33, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I took lots of photos of the submarine Hr Ms Tonijn at the Dutch Naval Museum (I've already uploaded a few of these, which are available in the Commons category here but I could add more) and lots of photos of aircraft at the RAF Museum in London. I wanted to go to the Luftwaffe Museum in Berlin but ran out of time. Getting back to Omaha Beach, I've uploaded two photos of Charlie Sector: [6], [7] and two of Dog Green Sector [8], [9]. Unfortunately the weather was gloomy at the time, but the tide level was apparently about the same as at the time of the landing. Nick-D (talk) 10:46, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the photos of the Dutch sub. This is a pleasant break from the usual and dead-boring external photos of submarines. --Sp33dyphil ©^hat_ontributions 11:02, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, did you snap anything at Les Invalides relating to Napoleonic Wars, Napoleon, the French Revolution, etc? Cheers, Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 11:10, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I took photos of Napoleon's tomb and the coat of a cavalryman from 1812. The museum was about to close when I was in the pre-WW1 section, so I didn't take many photos I'm afraid. Would either be of use? Nick-D (talk) 23:10, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

There are a fair few pics of Les Invalides on Commons already, both inside and out.. would dearly like to go there one day, pay tribute to a great and deeply misunderstood man. Will save you time and not ask for those, given how many photos you must be trying to upload already. But I would be interested in seeing the cavalry uniform, might be able to find a place for it. Thanks Nick! Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 23:39, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Here you go Nick-D (talk) 23:56, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Ooh shabby; looks like it's seen some mileage! Thanks. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 01:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

If you had any photo of small arms of the German or Italian infantry during WWII that would be really helpful. --MOLEY (talk) 12:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

The only photo I took along those lines was this one depicting a bike fitted to carry Panzerfausts. Nick-D (talk) 23:10, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, and I know this is a great deal of work, but if I were you I would search for every subject you photographed where you have a reasonably high-quality image, and if there are no existing shots on Commons (or yours are better), then upload them. You never know when someone is going to come along and start making use of the material. If you need to prioritise, then focus on the things you most think deserve coverage. Only a tiny fraction of the potential users of your shots will see this talk page :-) The Land (talk) 00:21, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I'm doing exactly that :) I'm just interested in seeing if there are any particular requests. Nick-D (talk) 00:28, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Ribbons in articles

This is a courtesy notification to let anyone interested know that there's a discussion at the Australian Wikipedians' notice board regarding use of ribbons in articles. The discussion may be found here. --AussieLegend (talk) 12:14, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

WT:WikiProject_Guild_of_Copy_Editors/Coordinators#Archiving proposal

The GOCE would like a more efficient archiving system for completed requests ... please weigh in over there if anyone has a suggestion. - Dank (push to talk) 00:44, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

RFC to make FA leaders elected, not appointed

An RFC is underway to consider a proposal to make the Featured Article leadership elected.

TCO (talk) 05:05, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Continuing problems regarding Anzac/ANZAC/Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division

The following inconclusive discussion has been copied from the Battle of Romani discussion page -

Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division has been used to prevent edit war between ANZAC and Anzac. Jim Sweeney (talk) 10:37, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

If interested the Australian War Memorial does use ANZAC [10] Jim Sweeney (talk) 15:31, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Seems logical to me. Anotherclown (talk) 20:16, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

But its not accurate the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps did not operate in the Sinai and Palestine campaigns and this corps was not formed into a mounted division, although some light horse brigades served in both. --Rskp (talk) 03:13, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

It is accurate as its the name for the division, and has nothing to do with the separate corps. Or are you now saying the Australian War Memorial have their facts wrong. Jim Sweeney (talk) 05:20, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

As I've said before, the literature regarding the Sinai and Palestine campaign refers to the 'Anzac Mounted Division'. See Hill 1978 p. 96, Powles 1922 p. 22, Wavell 1968 p. 90 et al. Bostock served in the 3rd Light Horse Brigade; when his brigade moved to the Imperial Mounted Division, he wrote - "The Anzac Mounted Division still kept its name and was combined with the 1st and 2nd Brigades, New Zealand Mounted, and the 22nd Yeomanry. The new division was called the Imperial Mounted Division and consisted of the 3rd and 4th Light Horse Brigades and the 5th and 6th Yeomanry. We of the 3rd Brigade rather resented the change, as we lost the old name of Anzac. [Bostock 1982 p.62] None of these published sources use ANZAC. --Rskp (talk) 23:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The now archived discussion headed 'ANZAC' on the Military History Project's discussion page concluded with -

The Official history uses ANZAC for the corps and Anzac for the men, the cove, and the biscuits. Its British counterpart uses Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division throughout. I think the use of ANZAC in capitals is a misunderstanding. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:43, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Despite all this Jim Sweeney continues to replace Anzac with ANZAC or the unwieldly Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division in the Battle of Mughar Ridge article, when both the Anzac and Australian Mounted Divisions were involved. Currently this article mentions the Australian Mounted Division, the Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division and the ANZAC Mounted Division. [11]

Does anyone else think Jim Sweeney should be stopped from replacing Anzac with both or either of his alternatives?--Rskp (talk) 02:20, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Rskp, I don't want to inflame the situation further because I really am just trying to help you all solve it, but I will provide you with my opinion. If you don't want to take it on board, that is fine and I will back off. Personally, I think that in order to solve this problem it requires collegial discussion between all parties. So far I've not seen that. I haven't really even been involved in these disputes and I've found that when I've asked a number of questions (here and here) I am simply ignored. Both Jim and Anotherclown have raised valid points and, although maybe they haven't been very accomodating in the way they have communicated them with you, neither have you been willing to listen to them. If you wish to solve the issue you need to discuss it calmly and accept that other people can also hold opposite, but also equally valid, points of view and that Wikipedia works on consensus. Regarding this issue, in my experience the sources out there vary greatly in the way that they choose to present these units. Some use "Anzac" and some use "ANZAC" etc. It requires editors to work together and reach a consensus using common sense and choose one style. My personal preference is for "Anzac" when it is "I Anzac Corps", "Anzac Mounted Division" etc. because that is how Bean's official history seems to deal with it (at least the 1941/42 editions). However, it is a very minor issue and it is probably best not to get too worked up about it. For example, when I wrote I Anzac Corps, I used "Anzac", because my sources used that. However, another user decided to move the article to I ANZAC Corps. As they provided a decent rationale, I accepted it and moved on to more important things. That is my suggestion to all involved here. If you don't wish for me to participate in the conversation again, please let me know on my talk page. Personally I think that all of you are great contributors and I hope that you can resolve the situation amicably. Apologies for the long post. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 04:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks AustralianRupert. The first question which you say was ignored was to do with the casualty figures for Magdhaba which I answered. On 31 December you offered to do the edit which I thought, did not need an answer. Regarding the second question, I thought I had answered this question in full elsewhere and didn't want to waste time repeating myself. Jim Sweeney and Anotherclown have both adopted a special style in all their communications with me, such that they leave no space for positive dialogue. I'm sorry to have to disagree with you but the name of a mounted division which took part in fighting in 1915, 1916, 1917 and 1918 is not, to me minor and recent edits have resulted in the Battle of Mughar Ridge having the Australian Mounted Division, the Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division and the ANZAC Mounted Division all noted on the one article. --Rskp (talk) 05:01, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Gday AR. No requirement to apologise in my book and you shouldn't need anyone's permission to edit wikipedia or to offer your opinion about how to improve an article (except maybe the missus). Indeed all editors should feel free to contribute. In the past I have voiced my concern about issues of article ownership on a number of pages related to the Sinai and Palestine campaign so I hope that this is not becoming an issue again, although I wouldn't at all be surprised if it was. When one editor holds themselves to be an infallible expert and repeatedly reverts or questions the motivation of even minor edits to improve grammer or MOS compliance I think that is distruptive. Other than the odd professional historian hiding in our ranks we are all amateurs here and the sooner that is recognised the better. That doesn't mean we should not insist on the highest standards though of course. Anotherclown (talk) 09:21, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Hullo all. First off, AC, I don't think I'd gainsay anything you just wrote. Secondly, as a fellow Aussie I feel obliged to weigh in on this one but I'm afraid I can't get worked up about it. Clearly there are documented circumstances where either ANZAC or Anzac predominates but, frankly, I'd tend to treat this the same way we treat date format in a US military article, or Engvar for a non-English-speaking subject, i.e. accept the preference of the article creator and/or chief improver, and be consistent throughout the article. I will of course listen to anyone who wants to poke holes in this suggestion -- but not for very long as there are far more important things to do... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:55, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Makes sense to me Ian, and it seems a sensible compromise (like you said there are far more important things to write and talk about). Personally I have no strong opinion about the "ANZAC" vs "Anzac" debate either (my involvement is more pheripherial). Cheers. Anotherclown (talk) 10:06, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

G'day all. Must say I'm a little surprised there is big debate over this, but here's my 10c worth. Bean uses Anzac to refer to the Anzac Mounted Div, Vol 7 Chap 5 pg 57. The only reason that Chapter has ANZAC in the title is because all the chapter titles are fully capitalized. The 1921 legislation protecting the word Anzac also used the initial capital only. Personally, that would be enough me, but maybe the Kiwi's treat it differently in their official history. Peacemaker67 (talk) 10:49, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Hmm first of all there are no continuing problems as suggested by the section header, it the same problem as high lighted before. Also there was no conclusion to the previous discussion despite what is suggested above and I have not continued to replace ANZAC as from the link you can see the edit was on the 9 December with the edit summery Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division to stop edit war over ANZAC Anzac which seems reasonable as I had started a discussion on the article page and at MILHIST to attempt to resolve the problem. Also Currently this article mentions the Australian Mounted Division, the Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division and the ANZAC Mounted Division. The Australian Mounted Division and the ANZAC Mounted Division are two different formations and the only place the full name Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division is used that I can see is in a direct quote. As I initiated the discussions I will of course follow the community decision so I don't think there was any need for Does anyone else think Jim Sweeney should be stopped from replacing Anzac with both or either of his alternatives hope that satisfies Roslyn SKP. Finally this has also been discussed at WP:Australia ANZAC or Anzac? which seems to suggest that military/all-caps usage has consensus at this time.Jim Sweeney (talk) 11:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, it does seem a little strange that this is now being brought up again over month later. Anotherclown (talk) 12:12, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• • Thanks Ian Rose but that's not the way Jim Sweeney edits Wikipedia in the Sinai and the Levant of WW1. Anotherclown your personal attack on me is entirely unwarranted - I have done no more than defend the integrity of my references NO MORE. But its Jim Sweeney who waged an edit war on ANZAC/Anzac Mounted Division during the GA review of Magdhaba which resulted in its failure. Jim Sweeney's contribution above is ambiguous - what does he propose to do? And what of the mess he created in Battle of Mughar Ridge on 15 December,[12] and all the other articles where he has been so busy with his unhelpful edits; adding red links, cutting functioning links and replacing Australia and New Zealand with British Empire in infoboxes? See the bracket in the first sentence of the Battle of Magdhaba for another example of his work in this theatre. --Rskp (talk) 05:30, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

So is this an attack on me or a discussion about the Anzac/ANZAC/Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division as the section header suggests. In connection to the above I don't propose to do anything, mainly because I don't know what your talking about. Jim Sweeney (talk) 06:00, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Please, everyone, stop discussing editors and focus on the content. Rskp, I agree with Jim here, whether you intended it or not, your posts here look like an attack on him and a number of your other posts on other talk pages demonstrate issues with WP:OWN as others have pointed out. As with many of these issues related to the Sinai and Palestine campaign, all of you - Rskp, Jim and Anotherclown - have raised valid points; if only you would all discuss them objectively, they would be resolved easily. Regarding the issue at hand, Ian Rose raises a possible solution. Because many reliable sources will choose either "Anzac" or "ANZAC", for me it becomes a matter of personal style. Jim and AC, if you agree, why don't we just go with the style employed by Rskp ("Anzac") as they are the original main contributor? This is such a minor issue, so why not solve it that way and move on to the more important issues in the articles? With constructive criticism and collaboration the articles in the Sinai and Palestine campaign could all easily become GAs or higher, but not when editors won't work together. AustralianRupert (talk) 07:02, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Rskp, I seriously think it would have been best for you to wait for the others to weigh in to my suggestion before changing it back. They may well have been happy to accept this solution, but by unilaterally making the change as you have, it's probably not going to reduce the tension. [13]. AustralianRupert (talk) 07:45, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought everyone had had their say. And really they have, except for AustralianRupert. Jim Sweeney, this is not about you but your edits. I'm sorry if I have not been able to make that clear to you. --Rskp (talk) 08:06, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I have had my say: I suggested a possible solution. It required input from both Jim and Anotherclown before being implemented. That is part of building consensus and resolving a dispute amicably. You decided to implement it without giving them a chance to comment. As you do not appear to want my help, I am done here. I'm sorry I wasted everybody's time. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:55, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

• • I'm sorry you feel that way AustralianRupert. --Rskp (talk) 01:16, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Slightly aside from the main discussion; regarding RSKP's comment "Jim Sweeney's contribution... he has been so busy with his unhelpful edits; adding red links...", you might want to check out Wikipedia:Red link. A further thought; if it's anything like the work did on airborne formations recently, I doubt they'll stay red for very long. Ranger Steve ^Talk 09:35, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree, Jim has done excellent work recently creating articles for all of the Australian light horse regiments recently too. AustralianRupert (talk) 09:55, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

So RoslynSKP has changed back to Anzac despite this ongoing discussion and consensus at WP:Australia to use ANZAC for the military. This together with his claim of the mess I made of the article on 15 December [14] just highlights the problem with the series of articles on that campaign a bad case of WP:OWN. I would suggest that RoslynSKP takes this to WP:Australia as its always going to be open to change, quoting their consensus reached. Jim Sweeney (talk) 13:05, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

• • Jim Sweeney, its you who has gone willy nillie through this theatre of war first changing Anzac to ANZAC and then to Australian and New Zealand without any consensus, without giving any rationale and ignoring the Wikipedia convention of accepting the preference of the article creator and/or chief improver. There is no WP:OWN here or on any article I have an interest in, as I welcome positive contributions. The link I provided above was not to Maghdaba but to the Battle of Mughar Ridge which has suffered from your "Clean up". See here [15] so that now there is the ANZAC and the Australian and New Zealand Mounted Divisions as well as the Australian Mounted Division, which was in the field by then. AustralianRupert thinks this is an unimportant issue [see his edit above of 04:04, 4 January], but the general reader will currently be completely confused by the names of all these mounted divisions; are there two, three or one? This is an urgent issue as the Battle of Mughar Ridge article is in urgent need of editing, but I can't do anything because I don't want to trigger another edit war as you waged in the Magdhaba article during its GA review. --Rskp (talk) 01:16, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

There is consensus for ANZAC at WP:Australia, and you have already changed it back. There is no Wikipedia convention of accepting the preference of the article creator and/or chief improver, its just a suggestion above and it does not override consensus. Accusations of me waging an edit war are unfounded, as seen above I attempted to prevent one by using the divisions full name. Jim Sweeney (talk) 03:06, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Ian Rose says the convention exists. Your use of the full name is unhelpful as it is unwieldy and can be confused with the Australian Mounted Division. Using Anzac is consensus here and I believe should be adopted. Changing the place of this argument is not useful or fair as its an issue which involves the whole of the MilHist community, not just Australians. Yesterday when I made the changes, I genuinely thought the issue was resolved. I can assure you I will not make any further changes to the names of this mounted division, nor will I make further comment (unless someone asks for more from me) until someone tells me the outcome.--Rskp (talk) 04:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Rskp, reference your comment: "Anotherclown your personal attack on me is entirely unwarranted - I have done no more than defend the integrity of my references NO MORE..." I didn't even mention your username in my post above so I fail to see how its a personal attack (although the fact that you recognise your behaviour in my comments seems instructive). Reference your next nugget: "Jim Sweeney and Anotherclown have both adopted a special style in all their communications with me..." I haven't edited one of YOUR articles or your talk page in nearly a month. Regardless, my "communications" with you on your talk page and a number of article talk pages are plain for anyone to view and form their own opinions (and I welcome anyone that can be bothered to do so). That your attempt to "report" this "communication" went no where should indicate that such accusations are baseless though. Editors before me have raised the issue of your article ownership (such as here), I've raised it repeatedly, Jim has raised it, and now AR has raised it. Are we all crazy? Lastly, why have you revived this issue again long after it seemed to have run its course? That hardely seems like an act of good faith. Anotherclown (talk) 08:58, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Anotherclown your post is another example of the special style of communication you employ when addressing me. I carefully did not mention your editing style because your edits of articles were not in question, but your communication style on talk pages while its Jim Sweeney's edits of the name of the Anzac Mounted Division in articles which is the subject of this dispute. I invite everyone to follow your link to the Battle of Jerusalem talk page to see what a spurious argument you are making.--Rskp (talk) 02:19, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Anotherclown I remind you "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks do not help make a point; they only hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping to create a good encyclopedia. Derogatory comments about another contributor may be removed by any editor." [16] Its worrying to me that the Military history project seems to sanction the style you employ for your talk page edits regarding myself.--Rskp (talk) 02:41, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

You really need to follow your own advice Comment on content, not on the contributor. Jim Sweeney (talk) 10:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

• The reasons are as stated. Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division was, in practice, too cumbersome a name, so "Anzac Mounted Division" came into use. The all caps usage is muddle headed. This is the consensus of military historians and I see no reason not to follow. (Aside: I have never seen a class that knew what an "Army Corps" is.) Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Falklands and request for input on the use of the infobox

Hi all,

After a short break, the discussion I started about the Falklands War article has been consigned to the archives. In short, to answer some of the questions left there, a task force of some description might be a good idea, but I believe it might be a little bit late now given that the anniversary is only a few months away. Personally, what I’d like to see is as many people who can, chip in on the main article on an ad-hoc basis and get it suitably ready for a GA review, so at least an article of some merit can be ready for the “On this day” page. Basically just a quick drive to get some quality article work done in the next couple of months.

On that note, there’s already a bit of a long-standing issue at the article, which I would welcome some input from any editor on. Having achieved a consensus of opinion that it would be good to include Margaret Thatcher in the infobox, given her status as Prime Minister during the conflict, one editor has insisted that this is only acceptable if every member of the entire War Cabinet (established and chaired by Thatcher) is also included. Not only does this seem to go against the established consensus that I (and other editors) see at other war articles and the guidance at the infobox page, but it also seems to make a rather unattractive infobox (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Falklands_War&diff=470083750&oldid=470000247).

Could I please get some opinions on this matter? Whilst I accept that all the members of the war cabinet are notable people in their own right, I don’t believe their role was notable enough to have them included in a summary box (nor do several other editors). I’d have thought that the PM alone was enough (being the head of the cabinet and the country).

The full (long winded) discussion on the subject is at Talk:Falklands_War#Margaret_Thatcher. I’ll leave it to other editors to decide what they think of it, but speaking personally, I think it reeks of Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and I’m quite frankly sick of the whole thing.

Any reasoned input is appreciated! Cheers, Ranger Steve ^Talk 14:50, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Except this isn't a long standing issue. And rather than Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT more of a case of Wikipedia:YOUDIDNTHEARTHAT. One editor didn't insist one editor suggested that the War Cabinet be included. He didn't actually demand that the whole War Cabinet be mentioned, he pointed out that listing solely Margaret Thatcher implied a presidential style of Government rather than the collective responsibility practised by the War Cabinet. And editor who is still prepared to consider alternatives but here you go poisoning the well. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:46, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure that and the most recent edits to the talk page speak for themselves. You're missing (or rather ignoring) the point that everyone else has made at the talk page. There is no question that the war cabinet was important and they're quite welcome in the article. However, they're not notable enough to be in the infobox- even in your most recent form. I invited you dozens of times to discuss their inclusion on a wider platform (here), and you repeatedly refused. You've also changed your argument when your previous argument has been refuted several times whilst ignoring and then misrepresenting everyone else's stance. You haven't proposed or considered any other alternatives to listing the war cabinet in the infobox either. Your clever wording above ("He didn't actually demand") does nothing to change the essential fact that you have continually lobbied and reverted to include the entire war cabinet ever since it was agreed to include Thatcher. In fact, I just looked for some diffs to support this and found 9. I can't be bothered to include them all, so here's a smattering: [17] [18], [19]. Ranger Steve ^Talk 18:20, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Steve, all you demonstrate with those diffs is that I've been prepared to compromise on my edit proposal. Consistently. As to discussion on a wider platform, I have responded to you here [20] noting that rather than general guidelines it should be considered on an article by article basis. One size doesn't fit all. Wee Curry Monster talk 23:43, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Having read none of the discussion at the article talk page but looking at the "War Cabinet included" version (which I agree is unwieldy), I'd suggest a middle road. Is there a British War Cabinet of the Falklands War article around (or alternatley, an article created that list the whos and whens of the cabinet, along with dates of establishment and disbanding, major decisions, and internal politics? That could be linked in the infobox as "Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and the War Cabinet" - gets the name in there, without the overly long list of names. -- saberwyn 22:39, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

It is an option, and the reason I've pressed repetitively (on the Falklands War talk page) for a wider discussion about the infobox is because doing so has implications on how we represent politics or leaders in the infobox at this, and other articles. Unfortunately the discussion there has just become bogged down in accusations of bad faith, cabals and even bullying now I notice. My thought is that the Falklands War article itself will be doing exactly what you suggest in its content, which seems like the best place to have it all, and that for a summary box that should include the main players, the PM alone is notable enough. War cabinets have been formed for numerous conflicts in which the UK has been involved, but we don't include them in infoboxes at WWI, WWII, Gulf War, or (as far as I can work out) any of the relevant wars during the war on terror. I also wonder if it's a touch WP:undue Ranger Steve ^Talk 23:06, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Saberwyn, there is such an article and I did that here [21], the relevant article is War Cabinet but it was simply reverted. Is this an unreasonable edit? Its sourced per WP:RS and WP:V but reverted by editors referring vaguely to style guidelines and "precadent and practise". I would ask editors to note that I have been quite happy to accept such a suggestion [22].

Have I lobbied to include the entire War Cabinet, no, I simply suggested it should be mentioned. Show me one diff where I demand every member of the War Cabinet should be mentioned, in fact I positively urge uninvolved editors to examine the diffs provided above by Steve or my comments on the talk page. You have to ask why there is this constant effort to paint an editor with a differing opinion as making unreasonable demands. I make a reasonabe point and not unreasonably object when it is airily dismissed. I don't make accusations of bullying, bullying is definitely going on right now and its frankly ridiculous over such a minor point. Wee Curry Monster talk 23:22, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I know you feel aggrieved, you've gone to some length to make that point over and over again. For everyone else's benefit, here is your response to Sturmvogell66's comment on the talk page, after his attention was drawn to the article by my request for input here (I'd also point out that I haven't had any contact with Sturmvogel for at least a year and wouldn't necessarily class him as a mate - no offence Sturmvogel!). Characterising such a contribution as canvassing and bullying is pointless, irrelevant and extremely bad faith, but it does seem to be your main editing style.

We are here to discuss the appropriateness of including a war cabinet in an infobox, as it is something that isn't done anywhere else, and because several (5 I think) editors find it inappropriate. I've never accused you of 'demanding' their inclusion, but you certainly are of the opinion they should be are you not? Why else would you continually insert them into the article? Your 'compromise' has only come about in the last 24 hours and I'm afraid that I personally don't agree with it anyway, and nor I suspect do the other editors who oppose you - they are quite clear that they think it should be Thatcher in the infobox alone.

If it is as simple as "I simply suggested it should be mentioned", accept the fact that the consensus is that they shouldn't. As you say, this is a minor point. So, in the face of so much resistance to your stance, why don't you drop the stick? Ranger Steve ^Talk 12:15, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I quote "I've never accused you of 'demanding' their inclusion" - except yes you did "one editor has insisted that this is only acceptable if every member of the entire War Cabinet". Its in your very first post. I wouldn't care, its simply another example of how you claim one thing, while doing another but its right there above. You started this thread here, with a blatant call for action against another editor, who you painted as the devil incarnate. Your comments were not a neutral call for opinion, you were lobbying for other editors to weigh in on your side. And funnily enough you got an editor you've previously worked with to do precisely that. I don't see a consensus, there has never been a willingness to discuss a proposal or consider how it might be included. I have been prepared to make compromises or consider alternatives, clearly you're not under any circumstances. What I proposed added 4 words. Whilst I would prefer to discuss content, I constantly find that I'm having to defend myself against your accusations. Frankly the way you've gone about this is rather ridiculous, and in return why don't you drop the stick. Wee Curry Monster talk 17:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Cologne in WWII

Hello. There's a dispute about the fall of Cologne in 1945 involving contradictory sources. Help would be appreciated at Talk:Cologne. Thank you, Pichpich (talk) 16:11, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Shawinigan Military College

see Talk:Shawinigan Military College, where the existence and what this is, is under discussion. It currently redirects to the CEGEP, which is wrong, but what to do with it is being discussed. 76.65.128.132 (talk) 09:13, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

FAC spotscheck

Obviously I'd like comments in general, but I thought the spotchecking tasks for Nyon Conference (FAC here) might in particular suit a military historian. Enough of them come from PDFs that I can, and will, email upon request. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Military Biography importance

How come there are over 30,000 articles in the bio task force that aren't rated for importance? 76.7.231.130 (talk) 13:42, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

MILHIST doesn't use the 'Importantance' ranking, I believe? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 13:49, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, there are 7,500 articles in that task force that do have importance rankings. 76.7.231.130 (talk) 13:52, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Those are derive from the WP:WPBIO tags on the articles. It's an artifact of the joint task force structure; the Biography WikiProject uses the ratings, but we don't. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 13:56, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Kirill once mentioned something about, if WP:Biography project tags articles within their "importance" scale, but the articles are also in the WP:MilHist scope, we see the importance results on the Assessment tables here. Something like that... Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 13:58, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Speak of the Devil... Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 13:59, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Just checked the American Civil War and American Revolutionary War task forces and their articles are divided into importance rankings as well. So if importance rankings isn't part of MILHIST then something fishy is going on here. 76.7.231.130 (talk) 14:00, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

That case would be Wikipedia:WikiProject United States. Buggie111 (talk) 14:01, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Any way of getting the two separated? 76.7.231.130 (talk) 14:03, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I seriously don't think so. Buggie111 (talk) 14:05, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps something could be done about the "coding" behind these wikiprojects which allows for the "spillover". 76.7.231.130 (talk) 14:14, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Or is this a problem which can't be fixed? 76.7.231.130 (talk) 15:17, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

It's not really broken or a problem to be fixed.. it's just superfluous to this WikiProject. On the optimistic side, it may even have the effect that editors unaware that we don't use it but seeing articles as "Low" in importance try to add more notable information to them thus increasing their quality for MilHist and possibly importance for other projects. Other than that, I'd say just ignore it.. doesn't harm the project whether it shows or not. It's a highly speculative scale anyway.. personally, I'd hate to have to determine who or what is more important from a historical perspective, because what's unimportant to me, might be crucial to others, depending on their interest, culture, etc. Better just to rate by quality, I think the whole idea of expressing importance is pointless anywhere on Wiki, and can only lead to conflict. We do right to ignore it. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 17:17, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I apologize for that. I didn't realize it would affect this project when I created those since it isn't in the template coding and the template doesn't use the WPBannershell. I think its because its in Milhist subcategory tree. I could try changing it to fall under WPUS to see if that makes them go off this project. To answer a comment above, to me, its more what the importance of the article is to the project than to the topic necessarily. But thats just my opinion. So ys as someone said above its very subjective and really only gives a bit of a guide to help focus efforts that's all.--Kumioko (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

In any joint project, you would have the difficulty of criteria. For example, an article on JFK would make most people's list of important biographies but, if you simply took a look at his military career, you would rate him much lower. So MILHIST would need to decide the basis of importance, which would need to be somewhere in the realm of importance to military history. Then we'd have to argue relative importance of weapons, tactics, battles, people. And then random editors would ignore all this and rank people as highly important because they are a personal hero or they have a love affair with a certain military formation. I really can't see us introducing importance ratings without a lot of work Monstrelet (talk) 09:52, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with that. David Chandler's book "A Guide to the Battlefields of Europe" has a "four star" importance-rating system, which I dismiss, as it is completely subjective and all depends on what the historian considers "important", especially in the mid-range.. obviously battles like Waterloo and Gettysburg are major, but it's dodgy ground rating battles and events, let alone weapons, regiments, people, etc. Such things are going to vary based on many biases, nationalistic views, etc, which just won't work on Wiki in favour of NPOV. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 10:12, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I totally understand that with perspective to this project due to its fairly broad scope and relatively contentious article list. Many of the articles under this project invoke strong feelings and I certainly understand. Additionally I also agree it is a fair bit of work and I personally tend to look at the importance listings with slightly more than a grain of salt and if someone wanted to insist an article was a top priority I wouldn't bother arguing (unless it was clearly obvious to all it was not of course). Here is an example of how we do it in WPUS but it does differ by the project supported such as the state or city projects. WPUS Importance scale--Kumioko (talk) 13:52, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Monstrelet and MarcusBritish make good points. If MILHIST prefers not to use importance ratings, then perhaps looking into fixing the "spillover" would be worth the trouble. 76.7.231.130 (talk) 04:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I'm certainly not one to try and make anybody do anything. I'll take a look at fixing that tomorrow. At least for the ones affected by WPUS. Unless someone beats me to it that is. --Kumioko (talk) 04:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Both the ACW and ARW task forces are still rated by importance, so apparently this hasn't been fixed. 76.7.231.130 (talk) 22:02, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Is anyone trying to fix this? 76.7.231.130 (talk) 04:21, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

There's probably no real way to fix this given the way the assessment system uses categories. The assessment statistics are generated from category contents rather than from the template tags which generate those categories; since the task force categories are fed by both MILHIST and non-MILHIST tags, the statistics for them will reflect both sets of tagging schemes. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 19:14, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Pathfinder (RAF) & No. 8 Group RAF

These two articles have one hell of a lot of overlap because the history of 8 Gp in WW2 is the history of most of the life of the Pathfinders. Should they be merged? NtheP (talk) 22:05, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

They've been on my mental to-do list for ages.. merge away ! Buckshot06 (talk) 22:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

There's some minor quirks to encompass along the war - the No. 8 group of 1918/9 and the bomber group of the early part of the war, plus 5 Group using their own Pathfinders and the 8 Groups Mosquito LNSF that didn't do any pathfinding. GraemeLeggett (talk) 22:59, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Thankyou Graeme, it appears that my redirect of Light Night Striking Force was incorrect some time ago. I'll change it. Cheers Buckshot06 (talk) 12:23, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Its probably possible to write a separate article on the LNSF itself, but in the short term that section could do with expanding. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:45, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The reason there's an overlap is that at some point in the past someone has copied the stuff at Pathfinder (RAF) over to No. 8 Group RAF. The logical thing to do would be to delete it again. As Graeme says, the two aren't synonymous, although 8 Group carried out the pathfinder function (most of it) for most of the war. The 8 Group article should discuss the unit history (1st and 2nd World Wars, and both WWII incarnations (like all our other RAF Group articles); the Pathfinder article is the place for the development, techniques, major operations and politics involved in pathfinding. But if you feel a merge is more appropriate, I would suggest opening a merge discussion on the article page, and see what support it gets. Xyl 54 (talk) 13:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't sure a merge was needed, hence my asking here first. There's certainly some separating out needed along the lines you suggest and some rigourous monitoring afterwards to keep them split and discrete. NtheP (talk) 16:20, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Following on from this, I’ve posted the suggestion here. Xyl 54 (talk) 01:15, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica

Just a heads up it appears the Encyclopedia Britannica is not classed as a reliable source see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Is Encyclopedia Britannica a reliable source?. I have only seen it used a few times in MILHIST articles, but anyone thinking of using it should be aware. Jim Sweeney (talk) 10:24, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

G'day, Jim. Thanks for this link. I really need to spend more time reading over the RS noticeboard as it is something that I've neglected in my wiki-education. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 21:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Only by some. It's a perfectly acceptable source and at least as reliable as quoting random journalist in the daily paper which Wiki is littered with! --Bermicourt (talk) 06:44, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:East Germany#Satellite state of the USSR or not

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:East Germany#Satellite state of the USSR or not. Should this article describe East Germany (the former German Democratic Republic) as a satellite state of the former USSR?"" Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class review for John Sherman Cooper now open

The A-Class review for John Sherman Cooper is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 23:56, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Infobox template needed

I have started revamping the WW2 Tehran Conference page and intend to do the same for the other main conferences of WW2 (should include Cairo, Potsdam, Yalta, Casablanca etc). I have searched for a suitable infobox template to use for this type of conference and decided to use Template:Infobox conference as a work-around in lieu of anything better. This template is not particularly suited to the requirement - any ideas or recommendations? Thanks. Farawayman (talk) 20:41, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Try Template:Infobox historical event. NtheP (talk) 21:21, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Still not perfect, but a major improvement on the previous one! Thanks. Farawayman (talk) 21:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

"Battle of" disambiguation pages.

Greetings. In case anyone is interested in doing a bit of fun cleanup, here are the current top 12 most linked-to "Battle of" disambiguation pages:*

1. Battle of Ypres (35 links)
   • Actually, there still seem to be a large number of incoming article links to "Battle of Ypres". If these are intentional, they should be piped through [[Battle of Ypres (disambiguation)Battle of Ypres]] so they don't show up as errors on the "what links here" page. Cheers! bd2412 T 23:15, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
     • Note that some editors think linking through a redirect is a mistake and will remove the specifier... 76.65.128.132 (talk) 08:56, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

   I've had another go at the "Battle of Ypres" list. A number of them refer to the battles as a whole, so the dab page is the target; we have a Battles of Ypres page, which redirects to the dab page, so I've changed the link to that. It makes more sense on the page that way (viz). Xyl 54 (talk) 04:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

2. Battle of Chattanooga (34 links)
3. Battle of the Marne (33 links)
4. Battle of Arras (30 links)
5. Battle of El Alamein (30 links)
6. Battle of Manila (29 links)
7. Battle of Bull Run (28 links)
8. Battle of Corinth (27 links)
9. Battle of the Atlantic (27 links)
10. Battle of the Aisne (26 links)
11. Battle of the Lys (26 links)
12. Battle of the Scarpe (23 links)

Any help correcting the links to these pages so that they point to the correct battle would be most appreciated; completed lines can crossed out. *Battle of the sexes left out for obvious reasons; thank goodness that one doesn't fall under this project. Cheers! bd2412 T 03:53, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I've done what I can for the Battle of Lys entries. A lot of the links are to talk pages, though, so I've left them. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 06:24, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Did correct around 15 for Battle of Ypres and had a look at all the the rest: it is either talk page links or wiki page links or it is impossible to discern what battle is meant (or all the battles are actually meant). So I think Ypres can be crossed out now. noclador (talk) 11:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

One oddity. The Scarpe page has a "links to" for this, but AFAICT, no link back to the dab page... TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 12:57, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Ignore my last... I missed it. :( TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 12:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I've done the Battle of Bull Run with the already stated exceptions of talk pages etc. NtheP (talk) 14:09, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Presuming I haven't missed any...Scarpe is done, too. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 16:28, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Atlantic & El Alamein battles done. NtheP (talk) 18:16, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Battle of the Aisne done (except the usuals) Xyl 54 (talk) 01:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Also Battle of Arras. Xyl 54 (talk) 04:26, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

All that's left now is Chattanooga, Manila, and Corinth. bd2412 T 21:42, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone who is working on this. We generally do not fix links on user pages or talk pages, but focus instead on links in articles, images, categories, and portals. Cheers! bd2412 T 22:01, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

FAC discussion on electing leadership

A discussion is underway at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates, regarding electing leaders. Sorry, the discussion is long and heated and no simple section to send you, but see the whole page.

Milhist coordinator leadership and elections have been mentioned as one model to learn from. Appreciate any insights and participation.

(And this is not "canvassing". Please give whatever insights you have pro/con or expecially in terms of expanded learning. You can feel free to drop TCO-recruit for 20 pushups or mountain climbers, too.  ;-))

TCO (Reviews needed) 20:03, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Heh, not so much "long" as "You'll go blind and insane if you try to read the whole thing" :) Where we are now is, User:Mike Christie has put up a poll to determine which of the multitudinous issues we're going to tackle first. At the moment, it looks like first up is going to be a discussion about the current FAC leadership, specifically User:Raul654. I don't think anyone has to worry that they're going to "miss out" if they don't track every edit; as each question comes up for voting, everyone will repeat the important points. My best guess for the section to keep your eye on if you don't want to miss a chance to vote (or not-vote) is WT:FAC#Leadership structure and current leadership, and I'll make a post when the vote starts. - Dank (push to talk) 23:44, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, been following it as best I can but have refrained from weighing in as pretty well anything I might add has already been said half a dozen times already. May stop in at the actual vote but that's probably about it... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:59, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, the voting page just went up, although I don't know when the vote is coming: WP:Featured articles/2012 RfC on FA leadership. - Dank (push to talk) 03:49, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Combatants in infoboxes

A number of infoboxes in the Sinai and Palestine theatre of WW1 have seen the countries involved in the combat cut, leaving only 'British Empire'. Two reasons have been given a)that the countries are all in the British Empire, and b) that it brings combatants1 and combatants2 into line as only the Ottoman Empire is mentioned. See [23] for an example.

The trouble is, as I see it, countries like Australia, India and New Zealand in particular, which all played significant roles in the campaigns, don't get a mention at the top of the article. This has the potential to put off readers who may be looking for operations involving one of these countries. Do you think this is ok? — Preceding unsigned comment added by RoslynSKP (talk • contribs) **I'm sorry I forgot to sign this.--Rskp (talk) 23:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

To be frank, I really think that you guys need to set up a RfC or some other 'big picture' solution. Repeatedly raising issues with one another on an ad-hoc basis isn't the best way to sort this out, particularly as you all seem to be editing in very good faith and the issues which are causing so much discussion are really at the margins of the articles. Nick-D (talk) 07:21, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Within a specific military campaign infobox there should be enough room to fit the individual contributors as an indented list below "British Empire", particularly when it was under a central authority. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:14, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more? Several issues stand out to me. Firstly, whilst I understand why this approach has been taken, I really think it is wrongheaded to treat the Ottoman Empire the same as the British Empire during the First World War. Firstly, Australia and New Zealand were separate countries, and whilst hey weren't entirely independent of Britain with regards to foreign policy, their key roles in the campaign in the Middle East should be properly recognised in the infobox of these articles. Secondly, given their contribtion, it is appropriate to identify them as being involved. Peacemaker67 (talk) 11:56, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

There is plenty space for all of them see Battle of Megiddo (1918), the problem is you can not just cherry pick which one you want to include. If ones in they all have to go in (see example). The Ottoman and German side does have a problem, as sources for what states provided forces for the campaign are not available. So its a bit one sided just filling in the British side. Jim Sweeney (talk) 13:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Echoing Nick-D There is room for all but there needs to be some sort of guideline about what and who is appropriate e.g. is it belligerent countries or nationalities of participants. I know that on Battle of Britain there has been dispute about showing Poland as one of the particpating nations because although Polish aircrew played a significant role in the battle, the state of Poland wasn't a belligerent (or was it?). NtheP (talk) 17:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

There is a significant difference between the Ottomans, being a diverse empire of provinces etc, but not comprising internationally recognized countries, and the British, comprising some states such as Canada, Australia, NZ etc as well as the Indian Empire, which was under British rule. It seems to me if a state was involved it should be in the info box. What states existed in the German empire? Peacemaker67 (talk) 20:07, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

The German Empire included states like Prussia, Baveria etc there is a full list here List of historic states of Germany. The Ottoman Empire stretched from Bosnia and Bulgaria in the north to Palestine, Saudi Arabia and Iraq in the south and east. There is a map available File:Map-of-Ottoman-Empire-in-1900-German.svg. Jim Sweeney (talk) 20:41, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Germany was unified in 1871, none of the states you refer to were separate state entities any more than New South Wales in Australia at the time. The Ottoman Empire did not include any independent States either. This argument is a canard. Peacemaker67 (talk) 21:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

From the German Empire article - The German Empire consisted of 27 constituent territories (most of them ruled by royal families). Some formed their own military formations see 6th Bavarian Reserve Division (German Empire) a unit of the Royal Bavarian Army. Jim Sweeney (talk) 21:39, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Bavaria retained control of its own aircraft production for most of the war and fielded its own distinct squadrons, as did (if I recall correctly) Saxony. Both states allowed central government control of their forces, but they were technically independent. I don't think New South Wales had the same status, although Australia as a whole might have when considered in the context of the British Empire.Intothatdarkness (talk) 21:41, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

The info box template says the countries involved, although sometimes larger entities such as alliances. Australia was a separate country. Not including Australia, or other countries involved does not aid understanding for the reader. Peacemaker67 (talk) 22:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I wonder how much of this is due to the limitations imposed by the infobox format? It can be very difficult to encapsulate a complex idea in a few lines and bullet points. A couple of solutions that have worked for me in the past have been to footnote the infobox summary with a fuller explanation, or to link to the appropriate section of the article if one exists. EyeSerene^talk 14:20, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid this is probably simpler than that. It seems to me that there is some other motivation for this. Perhaps Jim could explain his rationale further? Peacemaker67 (talk) 14:25, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

My only rationale is that if not using British Empire than all involved have to be included, not cherry picking. Jim Sweeney (talk) 15:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd imagine only significant contributors might need to be recorded, though that opens a debate about what was a 'significant contribution'. A division? A regiment? One naval ship? It's certainly more straightforward to keep the infobox to a bare minimum, but I do understand why some might find "British Empire" to be uninformative (it was a big empire after all!) EyeSerene^talk 17:34, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Medals as decoration

For once, not the usual debate on medal ribbons!

I've just been pointed to John Basilone, which has a 15px floating Medal of Honor in the upper right corner above the infobox. Have we clear policy on this sort of thing? The top icon seems very likely to be against MOS, and it reminds me I've always been a little concerned about displaying the MoH in the infobox alongside the photograph anyway - I think we may have discussed this before, but I don't remember what if anything the consensus was.

Thoughts? Shimgray | talk | 18:26, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't recall discussing this particular variant on the medal ribbon issue before, but I've gone ahead and removed the icon. Apart from anything else it clashes with the GA/FA symbol area, both of which have gone through community approval processes to be able to use that location (at least I know the GA icon has & I'm assuming the FA icon did at some point!). IMO it ought to be removed from the infobox too, and we have a 'salad bar' further down the article along with another picture of the MoH. Three pictures and a ribbon is, I think, excessive. EyeSerene^talk 20:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

(EyeSerene removed the icon but it can be seen in this version of the article.) IMO it's not a useful thing to have because at that size it's not clear what it is, and it's not something instantly recognisable so readers might not know what the medal means in any case. Add to that the redundancy EyeSerene pointed out and I'm not seeing a reason to have it at all. Nev1 (talk) 21:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I would say the only reason it would be helpful in the infobox would be at its current usage (alongside the photo) or if a photo is absent entirely. —Ed!^(talk) 02:41, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

German Field Armies of WWI & WWII

I am fairly new to editing, so please bear with me if this question has been asked (and resolved) previously. I note a series of articles on German Armies e.g. 1st Army (Germany) which cover the armies of WW1 and WW2. I believe that these should be separate as the two formations had no direct lineage link in a manner analogous to 1st Division (German Empire) and 1st Infantry Division (Wehrmacht). I do not know how to go about spliting / renaming / whatever these articles. Would redirection be needed? Or disambiguation? Hamish59 (talk) 15:34, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

My suggestion would be to create two new articles called 1st Army (German Empire) and 1st Army (Wehrmacht) and convert the former 1st Army (Germany) to a disambiguation article pointing to the two new articles. And then the fun begins identifying every article pointing to the disambiguation article and redirecting to the respective correct new article.MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:02, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

To name it (German Emprie) and (Wehrmacht) would be wrong as one names a state and the other a force. I know the problem as the official name of the forces of the Empire is Deutsches Heer which could be mixed with the Heer of the Bundeswehr but there should be some continuity in name giving. So the names should be (German Empire) and (Third Reich) or (Drittes Reich). Otherwise could be (Deutsches Heer) and (Wehrmacht). --Bomzibar (talk) 14:46, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Bomzibar, you are completely correct. Unfortunately we've just had a long discussion (check archive 115, I think it is, or the thread collection in Talk:German Army) about naming suffixes for German units, and we've just evolved the mismatched system that you identify. But you are completely correct, so I suppose it's time to reopen the discussion.

Therefore question. Should we go by the name of the state, or the army? The ()s at the moment are (German Empire), (Wehrmacht), (Bundeswehr) and the putative, in-reserve for when it gets necessary (East Germany). East Germany is a special case and I believe it should remain that way. I believe that we should rename (German Empire) to (Deutsches Heer), because the alternative is to rename all the Wehrmacht articles (Third Reich) and the (Bundeswehr) articles (Federal Republic of Germany) which would be much more work and a really clumsy disambiguator for the FRG articles. What do other people think ? Buckshot06 (talk) 15:56, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, articles about other countries armies are all on one page, and titled number, unit, country (eg 1st Army (United States), 1st Army (Bulgaria)); in what way are the armies of Germany different?

And if we are going to change the format, we should definitely use english, so Deutsches Heer would be plain wrong. In fact, I've no idea why the German Army article is entitled "Heer"; it isn't a term that's in common use in english at all. Xyl 54 (talk) 13:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Xyl54, have you reviewed Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history/Archive_106#German formations? Suffice to say, many other countries can trace historical continuity between their 1st Armies, such that they can be in the same article. This is not possible for Germany because of the Nazi period. Regarding the German Army article, it is at German Army; this is not in dispute. But what your post points out is the WP:UE difficulty caused by consistent naming across the units and disambiguators. Buckshot06 (talk) 15:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I’ve had a look at the archive; the suggestion there seems to be that articles on the English WP about German military units need special treatment because to do otherwise might upset public opinion in Germany. That doesn’t sound like a good reason to do anything here; if the German WP chooses to handle it that way, that's up to them, surely? I don't know that the continuity is that much different; if a British Army unit was disbanded, and the designation re-used for a newly-raised unit we put them on the same page, in separate sections; I don't see why is that so problematic for pages on German units.

Also, what UE difficulty? There are English terms for the German Empire, Nazi Germany, East Germany, West Germany, the German Federal Republic, all in common use; there is no necessity (and good reasons not) to use non-English terms.

And the “Heer” article I was thinking of is this one. Xyl 54 (talk) 03:11, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Xyl54, first, I think renaming Heer 35-45 to German Army (1935-1945) would be just fine. The suggestion in Archive 106 was to use different disambiguators for different periods, because historical continuity cannot be traced between units. Look on plwiki for a similar example, which we may end up using here as well - (Second Polish Republic), (Third Polish Republic) etc. Beyond that, the existing term 'Wehrmacht' has been adopted because we're using it already, and I for one personally do not want to go changing diambiguators for fifty plus corps, two hundred divisions, and around twenty armies, plus smaller units. Consensus in the Archive 106 discussion indicates that most people here are happy with using a number of German loanwords, and certainly Wehrmacht is a term familiar to many English-speakers interested in World War II. Names for German states are complicated ; 'Nazi Germany' is not the correct name of the state, and the German Federal Republic is West Germany - the name of the state did not change in 1990. To sum up, we have existing precedent with existing disambiguators, and a consensus in the Archive 106 discussion, and any change would require a large amount of article title changes. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:44, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

If by loanword you are meaning non-english words that have come into common use in English, and are as likely to be found in English text as the equivalent English ones, then yes, I would agree Wehrmacht probably qualifies. The same cannot be said, though, for Deutsches Heer, or Dritte Reich (or, for that matter, Nationale Volksarmee, Kaiserliche Marine, Luftstreiteskrafte, or many of the other terms that have found there way here).

And, I agree Nazi Germany may not be the correct term for that particular German polity, but it is the common English name; if that isn’t acceptable (and I for one wouldn’t want the term "Nazi Germany" emblazoned over the titles of a couple of hundred articles here) then Wehrmacht seems a reasonable compromise. But it should not be the thin end of a wedge; the further we depart from common English terms to use (in this case) German ones, the more pretensious it all sounds. Xyl 54 (talk) 16:00, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

PS: Following on from this, I’ve put a RM at Heer (1935-45), here. Xyl 54 (talk) 01:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

On the same topic, I have been working on the three Croatian 'legionnaire' divisions of the Wehrmacht in WW2 (369, 373 and 392 Infantry), and the two articles currently live are now titled 'XXXxx (Croatian) Infantry Division'. Before I put my draft of the third one up, I am wondering if they should all be renamed to add either (Wehrmacht) or (Germany) after each one. The other German divisions seem to be mostly using (Germany), but a few use (Wehrmacht), like 1st Mountain Division. Any suggestions on this one? Thanks. Peacemaker67 (talk) 04:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I think I've found my answer at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history/Archive_106#German formations. I'll go with (Wehrmacht). Peacemaker67 (talk) 05:31, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

The three Croatian Divisions were part of the Wehrmacht, so you can use (Wehmacht). Otherwise you also could use there nicknames, for example 369. Infantry Division "Teufelsdivision" which would be a lot more complicated.

I wonderes about the German Wikipedia because we use (Deutsches Kaiserreich) for German Empire Divisions too. As I asked, it is because Deutsches Heer is the official name of the army of the German Empire but it also is a disambugation because every german army in fact is a Deutsches Heer. --Bomzibar (talk) 11:01, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Peacemaker67 may wish to note 3rd Algerian Infantry Division, a similar article title situation but concerned with a colonial unit of the French Army. Also note that if the unit identification number is historically unique, then a further identifier such as "(Germany)" is unnecessary. W. B. Wilson (talk) 18:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

The consensus, then, seems to be 1st Army (Germany) as a disambiguation page with 1st Army (German Empire) (for pre-1918) and 1st Army (Wehrmacht) (for WW2 era). The question I now have is: how do I go about this?

• Do I rename 1st Army (Germany) to 1st Army (Wehrmacht)? If so, how?
• Or do I create 1st Army (Wehrmacht) and copy most of the content of the existing 1st Army (Germany) into it? But wont this lose edit history, discussion, etc?

Help would be much appreciated, as I expect to repeat the exercise for 2nd Army (Germany), etc. Hamish59 (talk) 19:10, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Surely this can be automated by means of a script - replace all "n Army (Germany)" with "n Army (Wehrmacht)" etc. I am certain there is a MilHist SQL Guru around who could write such a script in a few minutes! Farawayman (talk) 19:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, have tracked down how to change (use a "move"). I will wait to see if an automated script comes along. If not, I will have a go. Hamish59 (talk) 13:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

AutoWikiBrowser might be of some assistance with this (I'm not speaking from experience, I've never tried it). However, if you're planning a large number of automated edits you might need to get bot approval first (see WP:BOT and WP:BAG). EyeSerene^talk 14:29, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I have moved 1st Army (Germany) to 1st Army (Wehrmacht), removed the WW1 stuff and added a topnote to a new article 1st Army (German Empire) with the WW1 stuff from the original article. 1st Army (Germany) is now a rediect page. I have ploughed through all the "what links here" for all 3 articles to tidy up (lots!). Some I have not touched - links to talk pages or sandboxes. Problem: we now seem to have no less than 4 redirect pages

six pages (5 talk, 1 sandbox) links to 1st Army (Germany)

one page (talkpage) links to First Army (Germany)

no pages link to German 1st Army

two pages (sandboxes) link to German First Army

All of these will go up once I commit this edit! How does this redundancy get dealt with? Hamish59 (talk) 10:16, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Two options: first, set all the redirects to point to 1st Army (Germany), or send the excess redirects through Redirects for deletion (WP:RfD). Buckshot06 (talk) 11:05, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Buckshot06. I think I will go for the former. Duplication does not seem to be a criteria for deleting redirects according to WP:RfD Hamish59 (talk) 12:17, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Military history of Canada

I have taken the time to update add refs etc.. to Military history of Canada. I an interested in seeing how far away from GA level the article would be under this projects idea of what a GA article is. Could I get someone with knowledge of the topic to read over the huge page tell what they think. After a quick read over from the experts here I think a formal review is in order then GA assessment would be next. What do you think am I close or still lots to be done?Moxy (talk) 19:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

The refs are looking much improved - nice work. A quick read through suggested to me that most of the obvious issues seemed to involve copy-editing, which could be dealt with at GA assessment. One gap might be the relationship of the Canadian military to groups such as the NWMP - a very Canadian solution to this kind of frontier soldiering, I've always thought. My advice would be to give it a once over for any paragraphs with hanging sentences which lack references (I spotted at least one); check the references for any stray ones (e.g. fn 167), but then consider going for either a Peer Review or straight to GAR and work with the reviewer on the various bits and pieces that it will throw up. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:23, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the info - and thanks to User:Jim Sweeney for his "quick pass some obvious cn tags added ". I have taken care of all the reference problems raised. I will work on a sentence or 2 about the relationship between the NWMP and forces. Yes interesting relationship - James F. Macleod would be the cause military and police man at the same time :-) ..but i will read up on it more then add info. Moxy (talk) 04:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

As some quick comments, the article seems unduly weighted towards recent Canadian military history. Canada's minimal involvement in the 2003 Iraq War gets as much coverage as its active role in the 1991 war, and there's more on the several-month long operations against Libya by a single fighter squadron than there is on the activities of the Canadian brigade group over several years in Korea, for instance. The material on Afghanistan is now out of date given that the main Canadian force has been withdrawn. I'm not sure why Multiculturalism is being described as a geo-political/military strategy (I think that some variant of 'multilateral' was meant). Nick-D (talk) 07:30, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Agree the Iraq War and Afghanistan section can be trimmed and updated. As for Multiculturalism think it was a typo..as multilateral is what the ref say. Will work on all points raised latter today.Moxy (talk) 18:25, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

 Done - I have done what I can do. Pls all jump-in copy edit at will. I will let the article sit for a bit then go for a review.Moxy (talk) 23:27, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Peer review/Military history of Canada/archive2.. Moxy (talk) 23:45, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Contest

How come nobody has totaled up the article count for December's contest? January is nearly half done and nobody has even checked the contestants' entries! 76.7.231.130 (talk) 04:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

On that note, whatever happened to military historian of the year? —Ed!^(talk) 15:48, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation by branch of service

Hi interested editors may want to comment at Talk:George Clinton (Royal Navy officer). it been requested the disambiguation is changed to (naval officer). This would have a huge impact of this project as several articles use (Royal Navy officer), (Royal Air Force officer), (British Army officer) and (Royal Marine officer), when a disambiguation title is required. Jim Sweeney (talk) 10:12, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Hermann Fegelein

I am seeking consensus on whether the portayal of Hermann Fegelein in film, tv shows, etc. should be part of the article. Please visit the talk page. MisterBee1966 (talk) 17:48, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

"Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein!" (sorry, couldn't resist) Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 17:59, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

In general, I don't have a strong opinion on its inclusion or not; with that said, I disagree it would be "pop culture trivia", such as, Youtube clips/internet parodies - they are in bad taste; these would be dramatic/historical film portrayals. If included, main works should be stated and not every small possible mention that may have occurred on TV or in film. Kierzek (talk) 18:32, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Peer review for Military history of Canada now open

A peer review for Military history of Canada is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Nick-D (talk) 00:42, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Help finding out about a campaign

I worked on getting James Inglis Hamilton to GA-class about a month ago. I decided to pick back up the article and add some more information. One thing I am confused about is this sentence: "Hamilton was the colonel of the 15th Regiment of Foot [...] during which he took part in the 1790s West Indies Campaign." I have looked about books and such, but I cannot find anything on this West Indies Campaign. Is there anyone on WP:MILHIST who can help me out? Thanks in advance!
—Michael Jester (talk · contribs) 23:03, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I think it was more of a exploratory campaign to colonise the West Indies, rather than a military campaign. Looking at history of the British West Indies I see nothing to suggest otherwise. Being a British Empire colony, it would have been garrisoned by British troops, however. You may need to carry out a little more research to confirm this though. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 23:33, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh, ok. Thank you for your input, Marcus.
—Michael Jester (talk · contribs) 01:07, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

There was a fair amount of fighting with the forces of Revolutionary France in the 1790s. —Simon Harley (Talk | Library). 14:45, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Michael, try "René Chartrand; Paul Chappell (15 May 1996). British Forces in the West Indies 1793-1815. Osprey Publishing. ISBN 978-1-85532-600-2.". It's an Osprey "Men at Arms" book, the 1996 edition is number 294 in the series. There is some mention of the activities that went on against the French, in the Chronology, which might satisfy your needs as a source. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 15:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes; it was a campaign as part of the French Revolutionary Wars. Per Battle Honours of the British and Commonwealth Armies, p. 258, the 15th Foot was awarded the battle honour Martinique 1794 (5 Feb-25 Mar), and also saw service at Guadeloupe (12 Apr) the same year, which wasn't given as an honour to any of the participating regiments. They don't seem to have served in any other major engagements in the West Indies during the campaign. There's a brief mention of this at Campaigns of 1794 in the French Revolutionary Wars. Shimgray | talk | 18:35, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Despite no articles on any "West Indies Campaign", I just found this: Template:Campaignbox Napoleonic Wars: West Indies, strangely enough, although it only covers 1804–10 battles rather than 1790s. After a bit of searching Haitian Revolution is all I can really find of any relevance to the 1790s (see GB in infobox), although it's mostly about slave revolts. Dunno if they're any help, but best I could find here on Wiki. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 23:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

To everyone: I really appreciate all this help. With the sources given, I've found some information about it. Thanks again!
—Michael Jester (talk · contribs) 01:48, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I have digitizes the book above and this one--> (hope you can see them) Roger Norman Buckley (1998). The British Army in the West Indies: society and the military in the revolutionary age. University Press of Florida. ISBN 978-0-8130-1604-7.......... Moxy (talk) 18:16, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

There is an extremely good book on the background to the colossal amounts of money Britain poured into her Caribbean campaigns in the 1790s: Soldiers, Sugar and Seapower by Michael Duffy. I haven't looked at it in six years, but as the price suggests it is much in demand. —Simon Harley (Talk | Library). 11:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

B class assessment wording

There has been some discussion of the wording of the introductory paragraph at B class assessment "If you have made significant changes to an article and would like an outside opinion on a new rating for it, please feel free to list it below. Requests for formal A-Class review should be made at the review department. B-Class requests are assessed using the five B-class criteria(FAQ). Please consider entering articles you have worked on in the military history article writing contest." It is a working assumption that the first sentence is not the only reason why an editor can bring forward an article for assessment i.e. any editor coming across an article he/she finds that is thought to be of possible B class quality can ask the opinion of other editors through this mechanism. Can we confirm consensus on that and rephrase the paragraph to reflect this interpretation? Thanks Monstrelet (talk) 14:39, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

B class in an individual assessment, if I come across an article that IMHO meets the criteria I just change the classification. The important words here are If you have made significant changes to an article if we allow every start/stub class article to be added it would just bog the assessment system down. Jim Sweeney (talk) 16:11, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I've always operated on the assumption that an article should be improved by the nominating editor. We don't allow drive-by nominations for anything else, so I don't see why this should be any different. If an editor is concerned with an out-of-date rating, it's not a difficult task to update it yourself, as Jim points out. Parsecboy (talk) 16:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the biggest problem is knowing how to assess an article to begin with. B-class isn't as arcane as the higher classes but still has rules. Until you are clear how that works, having a place to check your thinking is valuable. B-class assessment is available to any editor - I think we need some safety net while responsible editors learn the ropes. I think allowing an editor to test their opinion in a supportive framework (feedback is usually constructive and contains tips on what needs to be done) is of valueMonstrelet (talk) 18:57, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with User:Jim Sweeney. The opening sentence is worded with the intent of preventing (or at least discouraging) a conflict of interest for a primary contributing editor. If a new editor is uncertain of the B-class criteria, it is not difficult to look at the example articles provided and compare the work. If the article is improperly or inadequately assessed, there are no sanctions against the inexperienced editor, and (s)he learns by experience. Boneyard90 (talk) 19:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Agree with User:Jim Sweeney. There's already a separate list of unassessed articles, and I don't like them being dumped in the Requests for Assessment. If an editor did not work on the article, then that editor can assess it themself. Reassessment is to avoid the conflict of interest in re-grading articles yourself. Nor do I see much value in re-assessing articles as less than B class. The main reason I submit articles for re-assessment is to lift articles above stub class so they can be submitted to DYK. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:16, 14 January 2012 (UTC

Also with User:Jim Sweeney. If an editor needs help learning on how to B-Class assess articles they are more than welcome to ask me or other editors for help. --MOLEY (talk) 22:46, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I've noticed that a few newer editors request reviews of articles they haven't worked on for B class status while also reviewing other articles for this status themselves. While I'm not sure what the motivation for this is, it seems reasonable to think that this is being done to benchmark their own assessments. As such, while I basically agree with Jim I'm also in favour of allowing some leeway on this topic. Nick-D (talk) 22:53, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

To tackle a few of these points. Anyone can assign a B class rating and I've seen plenty of self assessments that are not consistent with the way it is done on the request for assessment page. To me , this is a problem. My interest is in getting a consistent approach to B class assessment. Secondly, relatively few people are involved in assessment at all, other than self assessment. We don't have the person power to deploy experienced editors on clearing up mis-assessed articles. We need a way to grow people to do this. I and others have used the request for assessment page as a learning tool in the past. If we remove that, what alternative we use? It is positive that MOLEY is offering help but how would a new editor, keen to do his/ her bit, know to make the contact. I'm happy to go with a consensus but I remain worried about how we create an consistent skilled assessment team. And on the point of unassessed articles, I don't see the point of dumping them into Requests for Assessment either but most R for A are actually reassessments so this doesn't apply. Finally, for those not interested in the assessment of articles below B, that's OK. But they are the majority of our stock and somebody in the project has to work in this area. Adam's behind the scenes cutting back of assessment backlogs and completing B class checklists, others attempts to remove stub tags from non-stubs ans reassess articles to start or C where they've been improved is all vital work in maintaining article stock and a creditable project. More power to their elbow Monstrelet (talk) 09:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

William S. Clark

Hello, I wanted to drop a note here to let fellow Military History Project members know about an open FA nomination for William S. Clark. His article has recently been added to WikiProject Military History. Clark was a colonel during the American Civil War and an educator who helped establish the University of Massachusetts Amherst and Hokkaido University. I hope that some folks from this project might be inclined to comment. The nomination can be found here. Thanks. Historical Perspective (talk) 22:09, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

That's it I quit

I am washing my hands of this sorry project. Apprently simple concepts are beyond certain people's comprehention, like asking for ASSESSMENTS on the REQUESTS FOR ASSESSMENTS page! Nobody seems to be interested in doing anything about the assessments on these articles unless they have vested interest in getting their precious articles to the next level. I've also brought up several topics about problems I've seen but the problems still haven't been fixed. I'm done trying to fix anything here. 76.7.231.130 (talk) 04:08, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I think one of the problems you're referring to is being discussed above... Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 04:45, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

There's a relatively small number of editors trying to pitch in on what is essentially a vast, if not infinite, scale project. Don't be a WP:DIVA. We can't all drop what we're doing and come running everytime someone finds a minor fault. We discuss it first, look for solutions, see if anyone's willing to sort it out, then make it so. It's a process, not only because the number of active members is fairly small at present, but because we all have real life issues as well, and this project operates one of the most multi-national topics and memberships on Wiki. The only way things can gain priority and be efficiently tackled is governed by one thing: collaboration. Getting in a hissy over things like "importance scales" and "too many stubs" doesn't help matters and won't make people feel comfortable working with, and you'll have to excuse my frankness, an anonymous IP contributor. It's quite hard for established members to form a "working" relationship with someone they can't even put a name to, let alone accept demands to "jump to it" and run around seeing to all their concerns. I think that about sums up the truth as civilly as possible, and I'm sure a few members will silently agree. Either join the team, or work with it less insistently. Don't expect it to work for you, though. Anon IP or registered, we're all volunteers, and we're all here to enjoy ourselves, no matter how much or how little gets done. We're all working towards the same goals. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 06:14, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Marcus, I'm happy to agree with you out loud -- I think you put all that very well. I'm sorry to see someone, even an anonymous someone, get frustrated with the project, particularly when they clearly give a damn, but we have these conventions for a reason and most people seem to consider them reasonable. I hope you'll consider what we've said and return some time. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not being that dramatic. I've tried multiple times to get assessments changed ON THE ASSESSMENT PAGE and been repeatedly blocked for doing so and been threatened with having my IP address blocked for doing so. 76.7.231.130 (talk) 00:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand a) what you have been trying to achieve, and b) what you may have been threatened a block for. Some diffs might help, or examples of what you mean, and who is opposing it, and their reasons. Blocks can only be made within policy, so you must either believe whatever it is you want changing is legit, or they believe it is against policy. In either case, we need to determine who is right before proceeding further. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 01:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

IMO I think the IP editor is referring to the comment made here where coordinator Parsecboy brings the issue of WP:Competence for the IP editor repeatedly placing unimproved articles into the request for assessment page. It can be assumed that User:Wildwolf is familiar with the editor because of an outburst here and also on my talkpage here that is similar to this event under his user name. I have full faith Wildwolf isn't using a WP:Sockpuppet but I do believe this editor needs to be reminded of WP:Civil and that his contributions are valued greatly but as we are all volunteers with different opinions about how MILHIST should run he shouldn't become instantly offended when other editors disagree with him or do not do what he wishes as noted here. If the editor needs help with determining if an article is B-Class or not or if they would just like a second opinion I am more than willing to help.--MOLEY (talk) 02:03, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Wild Wolf is active above in dealing with lots of Gettysburg articles, so who is this IP of, given that they've indicated that they have an account which has been repeatedly blocked, as the IP has no blocklog. I don't see the need to be Anon for some edits, and not for others unless editing in a controversial area. Even then, it might be frowned upon. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 02:13, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Basically, create an account that won't be banned or blocked. Secondly, ask yourself is this article meet all the "Start" requirements. Thirdly, it's possible that someone is willing to re-assess it for you if it is asked nicely. Adamdaley (talk) 02:19, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

This entire scene appears to revolve around the usage of the Assessment Requests page. I think the most recent round of edits that prompted the above outburst started when IP 69.77.53.146 added 10 articles to the Assessment Requests page. Jim Sweeney reverted, directing the poster to the #B class assessment wording discussion above. IP 76.7.231.130 restores here, Jim reverts without explanation, IP 76 reverts back, then starts assessing them. Parsecboy then removes the IP's list with the edit summary "Please stop posting a swath of articles from the unassessed backlog. That is not what this page is for. Read the instructions.", then follows up with a null edit and the summary "if you can't follow simple directions, I'm going to start blocking your IPs" [24]. A response comes from Wild Wolf of "Fine, since a REQUEST FOR ASSESSMENT page is apparently not for ASSESSING articles, then I'll just do it myself without getting a second opinion from anyone and nobody will have the right to complain about it", although this may have just been the IP jumping on a public computer Wild Wolf forgot to log out of.

Other recent related incdents may include when IP 64.6.124.31 added 7 articles here, to be reverted by Molestach, who left a note on the IP's talk page, and this back-and-forth where Parsecboy removed a list added by 76.7.231.130 with the summary "this list is for articles you have improved and need an updated assessment", IP 69.77.53.146 restored, then Parsecboy revered again with "Please read what I wrote, then read the instructions for this page. Then stop posting these here." -- saberwyn 02:30, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Man, what a mess... this is why Wiki should require mandatory Registration, Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 02:41, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

So, you are saying that Wild Wolf is not socking, but does this very evidence show that they are? (or at the very least repeatedly not logging in to their acc and then appearing to be someone else unintentionally?) Chaosdruid (talk) 02:48, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

By Wild Wolf's wording, sounds like he's using a shared computer. I expect the IP would match him in any SPI, but that doesn't mean it is him.. and given that the IP wanted to walk away and Wild Wolf has continued editing, it is too hard to guess. If it is a shared machine, only Wild Wolf can confirm who it is shared with. If it is a shared IP on a network, maybe not. IDK. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 02:52, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Outsiders

I am not a member of this project, and have never written any articles on military history (though I have helped out with a few through reviews and such). Am I allowed to vote in the military historian of the year award when it opens? If not, I completely understand, and I'll leave you to get on with it. Thanks, J Milburn (talk) 23:04, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I have not been as active as I would have liked, mostly assisting with copy-editing—more of my energies have been going off-Wiki collecting materials. Nevertheless, I expect I'll vote and, given your interest, I would urge you to join the project and vote as well, assuming you've got editors in mind in light of particular contributions. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 01:01, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, people who haven't signed up to the project are very welcome to vote, and can also make nominations. Nick-D (talk) 10:22, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Change of unit name

The name of a battalion has been changed from how it appears in the literature cited, so I have added a note to that effect here [25]

This note has been undone here [26] with the explanation 'revert vandalism its cited so how does it not reflect sources used'.

Is this acceptable behaviour on Wikipedia? --Rskp (talk) 01:31, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

No, it isn't. It needs a citation, but it was not vandalism. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Adding "reference" was bad form IMO. That really belongs on the talk page, or, perhaps, a <!--hidden comment-->. Calling it vandalism? Bad, too... TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 07:29 & 07:31, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

This practice has taken place across a number of articles including the Sinai and Palestine, Battle of Romani, the Battle of Jerusalem articles so in desperation I brought it here. What can be done to stop this practice?--Rskp (talk) 06:17, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

January 2012 Newsletter for WikiProject United States and supported projects

The January 2012 issue of the WikiProject United States newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

 
--Kumi-Taskbot (talk) 18:14, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Call for spotchecks

If anyone is able to assist in spotchecks on sources for the Featured Article Candidacy of HMS Temeraire (1798), please stop by and comment here. Benea (talk) 21:20, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Anzac Mounted Division

A consensus has twice decided this is the appropriate name for this mounted division at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Continuing problems regarding Anzac/ANZAC/Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#ANAZC. Despite these protracted discussions which both accepted Anzac Mounted Division as the most appropriate, an attempt to move the page from ANZAC Mounted Division has been mired in more discussions. What remedy is there? --Rskp (talk) 01:45, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Australian Army History Research Grants Scheme applications now open

As a note to Australian editors, the Australian Army History Unit is currently accepting applications for the research grants scheme it administers. These can have a value of up to A$15,000. Details are available here. Nick-D (talk) 07:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Cite a photograph ?

How do I cite a photograph ? This memorial image File:Statues in Victoria Embankment Gardens - geograph.org.uk - 1729996.jpg lists the engagements the ICC were involved in. The problem is these engagements are not documented, the same, (some are some are missing) in any books or web sites that I can find. Jim Sweeney (talk) 23:58, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Cite this instead? http://www.londonremembers.com/memorials/imperial-camel-corps Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 00:07, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks never thought of searching for that. Jim Sweeney (talk) 08:25, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The transcript is best, certainly! In general, a good approach is a discursive footnote giving all the information you've got, and if necessary explaining why you've used the photo rather than something else. For example: "A list of all engagements of the ICC is found on the memorial statue in Victoria Gardens, London; see, for example, [this photograph]. Most are listed in (Book 1), though three are omitted; (Book 2) confirms the entries for 1918."

I've done similar things using captioned photographs before - note #23 in Reginald Pinney, for example, uses the captions from a book and from IWM photo records to determine which battalions were involved in a specific attack. Shimgray | talk | 10:23, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikimania

Hey everyone. Scholarship applications to attend Wikimania 2012 are now available. I'd like to see most of you there, so I hope y'all apply! In a related thought, is there any interest putting a presentation together? Perhaps on how/why our project is successful on-wiki and what others can adapt to their own projects? (other and better ideas are welcome) Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 08:08, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I might be able to make it if I can get a scholarship to cover the flight.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm actually considering doing some research in NARA this summer semester, if I can get the funding of course. If I do, I'm sure I'll be able to come for at least part of it. Parsecboy (talk) 15:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class review for List of battleships of Greece now open

The A-Class review for List of battleships of Greece is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 16:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

January 2012 USCOTM - The Star-Spangled Banner

Hello, WikiProject Military history/Archive 108! The Star-Spangled Banner has been selected as the United States Wikipedians' Collaboration of the Month article for January 2012 and we are looking for editors to help improve the article. You were identified as an editor or WikiProject with an interest in the article and we thought you might be interested in helping out. Thanks!!!

--Kumioko (talk) 20:24, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Ob'yekt, Obyekt or Object?

I was about to start a list article along the lines of List of Sd.Kfz. designations, but for Soviet/Russian GABTU vehicle designations but am stuck at the first hurdle; deciding the article name. "List of object names"? "List of GABTU object names"? (use object ob'yekt or obyekt?). Obviously I can make a bunch of redirects so people can find it, but wanted to start off on the correct foot. (Hohum ^@) 19:46, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

What about a descriptive title like "List of GABTU vehicle designations"? Something with vehicles at least. -Fnlayson (talk) 19:53, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I think most primary english speakers who have ever heard of the designations, know them as "object numbers". I was hoping to keep object or a variation in the article name as with Sd.Kfz. above, and FV in List of FV series military vehicles to create some standardisation in presentation. (Hohum ^@) 20:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Normally, I'd say Ob'yect, but given commonname. "object" seems the choice to use. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 23:40, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Our page on GABTU is very short. You could add the material directly to the GABTU page should you wish. Buckshot06 (talk) 11:33, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

That works for me. (Hohum ^@) 17:51, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Category: Australian military personnel killed at Anzac Cove on 25 April 1915

Please see the debate at [27] relating to a proposal from User:Good Olfactory to alter this very specific category (Australian military personnel killed at Anzac Cove on 25 April 1915) to the far more general and non-specific Australian military personnel killed at Anzac Cove. I hope that there is some support for retaining this special and very specific category. Thank you all. Lindsay658 (talk) 06:08, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Whitespace avoidance

Comments are requested re a solution to the avoidance of whitespace in the various lists of shipwrecks covering 1939-44. Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Shipwrecks#Avoiding whitespace in TOC, where your opinion is sought on the proposed solution. Mjroots (talk) 13:50, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Calling any medieval military historians...

Just to say that Henry II of England has been expanded recently, and would no doubt benefit from the eyes of additional medieval military historians! For those not into 12th century European history, Henry was the "Cold War" warrior of his day: at the age of 14 he invaded England with a few friends and mercenaries; he married the most glamorous divorcee in Europe and acquired a larger empire in France than the French king himself; he carried on fighting battles and wars and building castles until he was finally defeated by his own son... What more could you ask for? Anyway, any help or military history wisdom gratefully received! Hchc2009 (talk) 22:34, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Nominations for military historian of the year for 2011 now open!

Military historian of the year 2011

The time has come to reflect on the past twelve months to see which members of the project should be awarded this year's "Military Historian of the Year" award. Which editor in our project, in your estimation, contributed the most to the field of military history on Wikipedia over the course of 2011? Any Milhist editor may nominate up to ten editors – this is to prevent any of our resident geniuses from nominating the entire membership list! – but can vote for as many editors as they like. Self-nominations are frowned upon. The top three get the gold wiki, the silver wiki, and the bronze wiki respectively. All other nominees will receive the WikiProject barnstar.

Please nominate in the following format, with brief comments (twenty words max). Nominations are open until 23:59 (GMT) on 21 January. There will then be a one week long voting period. Please do not vote yet!

• [user name] [reason] ~~~~

Please nominate editors below this line. Thanks, and good luck!Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Nominations

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Parsecboy (talk · contribs), for his phenomenal output of high quality articles. MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:42, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
• Adamdaley. For his work behind the scenes at WP:MILHIST, completing B-Class check-lists, assessments etc. Not the most glamorous of tasks, and he may not have had an FA on the main page, but he has not gone unnoticed. Jim Sweeney (talk) 10:46, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Second; nominate Adamdaley. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 12:04, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
• Hawkeye7, for his quality articles on high-profile subjects, including J. Robert Oppenheimer, Manhatten Project, Relief of Douglas MacArthur and Thomas Blamey. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
• Nick-D, for the broad range of his quality articles, including air, land and sea engagements, biographies, and unit histories. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I would also like to second this individual as he assisted in the elevation of one of my project articles. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:28, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

• Ed!, for his gargantuan efforts on Korean War articles. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
• Wild Wolf, for improving dozens of American Civil War articles to B-class. 76.7.231.130 (talk) 15:23, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
• Ian Rose for tending articles on blue orchids, including featured articles on Ian Dougald McLachlan, John McCauley, Valston Hancock, Alister Murdoch, Frank Bladin, Peter Jeffrey and Ozzie Watt. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:20, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Second. Ian is our resident Renaissance editor, performing such a multitude of tasks so well for the project–FA articles, assessments, Bugle editor, and on and on...Georgejdorner (talk) 15:22 15 January 2012, (UTC)
• Sturmvogel 66, for his constant stream (should I say river, or ocean?!) of quality articles on British, Japanese, US, Russian and Australian warships. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:32, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I'll decline your kind nomination, Ian, as I'd prefer to rest on my laurels.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
    • Fair enough, we'll strike but leave it here so no-one renominates you by mistake... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:57, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
• MisterBee1966, for his dedicated work on German officers and recipients of the Iron Cross and its variants. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:32, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
• HJ Mitchell, for his quality articles on modern British military history, particularly Iranian Embassy Siege and senior army officers (go the biographers!). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:32, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
• Anotherclown, for excellent work on Australian battles of the Korean War, Australian military history more generally and lots of wikignoming and other contributions to this project Nick-D (talk) 07:30, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
• AustralianRupert, for excellent contributions to articles on Australian Army units, many other Australian military history topics and substancial contributions to the project through reviews and 'behind the scenes' work Nick-D (talk) 07:30, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
• Jim Sweeney, for remarkable work on articles about British airborne and commando units of World War II and general contributions to the project Nick-D (talk) 07:36, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Decline nomination, but thank you for placing me amongst such illustrious company. Jim Sweeney (talk)

• The Bushranger, for huge 'behind the scenes' contributions to the project as well as fine work on many articles Nick-D (talk) 07:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
• Nikkimaria for a major contribution to reviewing articles within this project's scope (especially FACs), as well as other contributions to the project. Nick-D (talk) 11:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
• Cliftonian for authoring high quality articles for Rhodesian military history. Especially the Geneva Conference (1976) --MOLEY (talk) 16:38, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
• MarcusBritish For coming back from a shaky introduction to the project and rapidly progressing to become a valuable and consistently helpful editor, both within Milhist and Wikipedia as a whole. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:45, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

• Seconded. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:53, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

• User:Bahamut0013 (posthumous) I'd like to nominate Bahamut0013. Not because of some need to recognize a passed Wikipedian, but honestly because my participation in this project was strongly enhanced by this member. He was always very helpful, knowledgable, and dedicated to WP:MILHIST. His contributions have greatly improved Wikipedia and had his unfortunate passing not happened, he could easily have been a contender against these other well suited candidates.--v/r - TP 00:54, 16 January 2012 (UTC) tweaked - Dank (push to talk) 15:45, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I would like to second this nomination. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 17:06, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Seconded, in honor of "the fallen". TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 20:08, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

• The ed17, for excellent work on articles on battleships and putting a huge effort into the project's newsletter and many administrative tasks. Nick-D (talk) 10:35, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

And seconded also. I've found him a good guy & a genuine pleasure to work with. So I'm split on who to prefer... :( TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 20:08, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WikiProject History: the second beginning or the second end?

I'm not sure that WikiProject History is getting revitalized, so I'm making one more suggestion. Perhaps the entire, dormant project could be scrapped, and replaced by a parent directory of other child-projects and managed by WikiProject volunteers, in a mini-WikiProject Council? It'd be better than leaving the project to sit around, cold and dormant, I think. DCItalk 00:50, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm new to this debate, but that seems sensible if the situation is as you describe. "History" is probably too large a topic to be anything other than a sort of meta-project anyway. EyeSerene^talk 11:04, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to remove a reference used in the Australian frontier wars article and associated material

I have posted a proposal at Talk:Australian frontier wars#Frontier History Revisited by Robert Ørsted-Jensen - not a reliable source to remove a reference and the material its been used to cite due to concerns over the reliability of this source. Comments from other editors on this would be great. Nick-D (talk) 06:13, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Battles by location?

Looking at Category:Battles, I don't see anything about battles being categorized by the location where they took place. There is Category:Battles by country, but that's organized by the countries that participated in the battle, not the location where the battle took place. Is there a categorization of battles by location? And if not, has that been specifically rejected before, or is it just something that has not been gotten around to being done? --Metropolitan90 (talk) 20:12, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Seems uncovered for the most part. Category:Battlefields includes sub-categories Category:Battlefields in the United Kingdom and Category:Battlefields in the United States, plus Category:Vietnam War sites which I assume does the same, but that's about it. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 20:35, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Categorizing battles—by which I mean the actual historical events—by location has been explicitly rejected since circa 2005; see WP:MILMOS#BATTLESIN. Battlefields are a slightly different matter; the categorization there is location-in-location rather than event-in-location, which neatly avoids the historiographic problem involved with categorizing the battles themselves in such a manner. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 23:36, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Abraham Lincoln proposal

Hello editors interested in Abraham Lincoln. I just created a proposal for a new WikiProject with a focus on Lincoln, which overlaps with the Civil War military history task force. This project is intended to be similar to the WikiProject that exists for Barack Obama. Please feel free to comment on my proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Abraham Lincoln‎. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:41, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

List class assessment

I had a quick question about the list class tag: I have changed to class assessment for several ACW articles to "list", but on the ACW task force page the assessment statistics skip the list classification. Will articles assessed as list still be included in the start category? Wild Wolf (talk) 04:15, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

No. You need to change |class=Start to |class=list|list=yes, for now. That will update the main MilHist Assessment table. Hopefully, the Task Forces will be updated at a later date, once we develop criteria for a range of List classes, like A to C. That's being discussed several topics above.. scroll up, you can't miss it. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 04:21, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Wild Wolf (talk) 13:38, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXX, January 2012

Your military history newsletter – Issue LXX, January 2012 Project news: From the editors; award recipients; contest results Article news: The month's new featured and A-Class content Book reviews: Nick-D flies with Australia and looks behind Nazi Germany Interview: Kirill Lokshin, the first coordinator Op-ed: Hchc's English Castles • Published by the Military history WikiProject • • About the project • Newsroom • Subscribe • Archives •

A-Class review for Priscus (general) now open

The A-Class review for Priscus (general) is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Nick-D (talk) 09:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class review for John Sherman Cooper needs attention

A few more editors are needed to complete the A-Class review for John Sherman Cooper; please stop by and help review the article! Thanks! Nick-D (talk) 10:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Question on List-class

Quick question, as I was under the impression that WP:MILHIST didn't have the List-class assessment, as stated in the Assessment FAQ: Has WP:MILHIST changed policy and allowed articles to be assessed List-class? I only asked because an editor recently changed the assessment at Talk:List of castles in Japan. Much obliged. Boneyard90 (talk) 04:15, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

That edit was from me. MILHIST recently added List Class as a possible assessment. I reassessed the article as a list because it was in the List Backlog. The change over happened not too long ago. Much Ado, --MOLEY (talk) 04:59, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Good enough. I was unaware of, though pleased with, the policy change. I never quite understood why there wasn't a List-class. Now, should the FAQ section be modified to explain the recent change? Boneyard90 (talk) 15:38, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Where is it in the FAQ that needs modification? I'm seeing both Class=List and Class=FL described there. However, it was my understanding from the proposal at WT:WikiProject Military history/Archive 105#Proposal to add List-Class that there would also be additional rankings between List and FL classes forthcoming — anyone care to comment on the status? Mojoworker (talk) 22:19, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

The additional assessment levels should be forthcoming sometime in the next few weeks; we still need to finish preparing the documentation and implementing and testing the automatic assessment code. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 22:25, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm not sure, but I think we were waiting until a "build up" of List-class, to sort of justify going through the process of creating a List rating scale. Whilst there was a fair amount of talk and support for the idea, proof, of course, comes from the doing. There are now 428 List articles in the Category:List-Class military history articles, so I definitely think we're rounding up a generous number and the matter needs looking into soon, in more detail. I have a copy of the main Assessment table from the section at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment#Instructions in my userspace in preparation to create a draft List-scale for MilHist members to approve and Kirill to hopefully incorporate into our pages, in due course. I don't think any new system will be published without discussion and consensus first, of course. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 22:31, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

To answer User:Mojoworker, I refer you to Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment#FAQ, Q#12, which states:

12. What about lists?

Lists are assessed using the same scale as other articles; however, they progress towards featured list rather than featured article status.

The conflict of information between the FAQ and the Assessment scale, in light of past policy, prompted my initial question. Boneyard90 (talk) 22:42, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be better to update the FAQ only when we have the List criteria laid down, for now we don't get that many for review anyway, so better not to open up the project to List reviews until we know how exactly we intend to assess them uniformly. Those members in the know about the proposal can still help by updating current {{MILHIST}} banners where appropriate, so that once the criteria is ready, they can either be reassessed or left for people to work on as they see fit. I'm also changing Start and C-class articles to List, but have left a few as B/A for now. Either way it's good, as we can return to them later and make a firm reassessment without appearing to have lost a lot of higher class articles somewhere.

Quick question: I've changed the assessment for a couple of ACW articles to list class a while back but on the task force page I don't see a seperate category for list-class articles. Will these articles continue to be listed under start-class for the time being? Wild Wolf (talk) 04:15, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

More discussion

Moving on.. I have a page here User:MarcusBritish/Sandbox/MHA where I've pasted the List, C, B and A-class, and Featured List criteria. This is how the system currently works, except that we probably still have a lot of lists tagged as stubs, Start or C/B/A. What we need to do, is consider the main List to FL jump, and fill in the gaps with criteria approximating C/B/A but more suited to lists rather than prose.

We also need a naming convention for the MILHIST documentation and Assessment tables, as we going to be the first Project to do this (note B+ class exists in some Projects, as additions are possible). Do we go with:

1. List → CL-class → BL-class → AL-class → FL
2. List → C-List (CL) → B-List (BL) → A-List (AL) → FL
3. List → C-class List → B-class List → A-class List → FL

• Note: A stub could either become a List or Article depending how it shapes-up with added content, so I've excluded this from the track.

In terms of content, I think it's safe to say that in most cases, a basic "List" will just be bullet-pointed and very light on data, but as it moves closer to FL is likely to be a table-format list, or set of comparable tables with a lot more data, rather than just wikilinks or a line of minimal information. The more data a tabular list includes, the greater the need for citations.

Because lists and tables are often the result of complied data, or WP:SYNTHESIS, I think it important to make reference to Lists not being used to draw conclusions without the usual reliable, independent, neutral references to support them fully.

Further comments, thoughts, ideas, suggestions for criteria, etc welcome.

Cheers, Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 05:07, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The level of citations necessary to support each grade needs to be detailed. IMO, B-List or whatever we call it, should have every data cell in a table cited, with page number. Alternatively, a general cite with a (small) page range can be used. I'd not appreciate trying to track down one fact in a hundred pages.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:00, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

In the list assessment criteria, we might be able to advise editors roughly what standard of level of referencing is required, but I do not think it is necessary or prudent to detail how it should be cited, as that it more of a MOS thing. I don't think it's practical, in most cases, to cite every cell, as rows usually embody one combined "result". In cases where one table provides a data-set drawn from one or two sources, it shouldn't always be necessary to detail every page per row, when a page range will suffice, per WP:OVERCITE; complex lists can be hard to follow without cramming them with a mass of refs. Citations serve a few purposes, the primary purpose is to indicate that the content being shown on Wiki is supported by a reliable source elsewhere, the secondary purpose is allow readers to go verify or study that source further (third purpose is to avoid claims of plagiarism, it should be noted). It isn't necessary to detail every ref, page, paragraph and line per data cell though. If a reader feels the need to refer to the source, then a page range should do the job. WP:CITE covers this, as a guideline, rather than policy, because it really comes down to common sense and referencing lists on an individual basis, than trying to create a blanket policy, which wouldn't work well in many cases. Current WP:MILMOS#Sourcing and citation defines a minimum standard expected of an article, and reviewers are expected to determine whether they feel articles meet that minimum, based on content rather than a set quota. I think it better to stick with that general format for lists also, and keep things reasonable, and also comfortable to work with, rather than imposing requirements that makes the assessment criteria become impractical or unmanageable. The list criteria will highlight the necessity of comprehensive citing where lists are more involved, however. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 04:47, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

As far as names are concerned, my impression is that we're going forward with "CL-Class"/"BL-Class"/"AL-Class" unless someone comes up with something brilliantly creative. The other two options ("C-List" and "C-Class List") won't actually work; the assessment bot expects all category names to take the form "X-Class ...", and only uses the first portion of the name (i.e. the "X") to determine assessment level, so both options would result in the lists being flagged as "C-Class". Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 16:00, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh, okay.. thanks, I wasn't aware of the way the bot functions and naming limitations, but I suppose by using option 1. we still get the parenthesis short versions from 2. so CL-class = CL meaning "C-List", etc. I think that should be understandable. I'm think ahead here to the use of new versions of icons, combining with and for the "visual" side of things, also. I have a few simple ideas in mind which I'll try to present later. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 16:12, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, when assessing, you apparently have to type { |class=list |list=yes } in the WP:MILHIST template. Seems redundant, but I suppose this is one of those bot-things that will be worked out. Boneyard90 (talk) 17:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Icons are like favicons. Once they shrink down to 16px, they look uncontrollably naff. That said, here's are 3 draft icons:

File:Symbol AL class.svgFile:Symbol AL class.svgFile:Symbol BL class.svgFile:Symbol BL class.svgFile:Symbol CL class.svgFile:Symbol CL class.svg

Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 00:23, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Are we actually planning to have (and use) icons for all three new classes? Currently, only the A-Class icon sees any real use; while B-Class and C-Class icons exist, they're not used in the assessment templates, and haven't gained much currency elsewhere. If we follow that approach, we'd only really need a new icon for AL-Class, in which case it may make more sense to mirror the A-Class icon rather than the List-Class icon for the base design. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 05:09, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, of course.. I've just made the full range because some people like to highlight the current class of articles they've written or are working on in their userpages, so having the full set just gives people that option for the usual "show off" or tracking purposes we all like to do. If the project only wants to display AL icon, that's fine. Given that the icons are only 2kb each, having all 3 wouldn't pose any issues having them all available for personal use. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 05:16, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Of course; there's certainly no problem with having icons for editors' personal use. My question is more related to the overall look and feel of the designs; should we aim for "horizontal" consistency (i.e. the AL icon resembles the A icon, the BL icon resembles the B icon, etc.) or "vertical" consistency (i.e. the AL, BL, and CL icons resemble each other rather than their article-class counterparts)? Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 05:26, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Well I didn't design these as such, I just took:

and

I removed some of the • — (because letters are unreadable against them at 16px) and pasted the letter from the class icon, same colour, plus an L, and some darker trim to make it easier to see against the lilac background. So they mix the 2 existing styles.. primarily the "List" icon, with the "class" colour letters. If the design is not suitable, we can always com up with something else, I suppose. These are just draft ideas, that I put up for comments on.

Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 05:34, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

One alternate approach would be to keep either the list or the class icon but change the colour of the outer ring - so we'd have a lilac list-symbol surrounded by a (slightly thicker than usual?) band of blue (A), green (B) or yellow (C); or an A/B/C symbol surrounded by a lilac band. It may well show up more clearly at 16/20px - the current draft involves text changing colour, which is quite hard to make out at that scale. Shimgray | talk | 13:38, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Standard "lilac" list icon, plus draft colour versions matching A/B/C icons for AL/BL/CL:

File:Symbol AL class 2.svgFile:Symbol AL class 2.svgFile:Symbol BL class 2.svgFile:Symbol BL class 2.svgFile:Symbol CL class 2.svgFile:Symbol CL class 2.svg

Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 18:46, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Those look quite nice. Perhaps we could also add something akin to the faded yellow star background from the A-Class icon to the AL-Class icon? Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 20:04, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Agree look good with or without the yellow star and if we are voting support adopting them. Jim Sweeney (talk) 20:13, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Star added. Unnoticeable at 16px, but doesn't pose any issues. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 20:37, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Those look good. Is there any chance of having a 'faded'/'behind the lines' A/B/C or would that be too much? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:58, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I tried doing that originally, but at 16px it's just a blob, the lines and letter weren't distinguishable from each other. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 21:17, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Question - Why is there not a Good List (GL) class? Mjroots (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

GA is handled on a Wiki-wide scale by one central GAN page and impartial reviewers. Articles classed under WikiProject banners are independently reviewed by its members who specialise in the topic, so we can't add GL because we don't have GA, although we will recognise GA rated articles. At the moment GAN does not accept lists under its criteria and asks that lists be taken to FL status. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 21:48, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Criteria

I've tried to take existing B-class and A-class and adapt it to List format, with a few alterations, working it towards FL class, which I've added below to indicate how the criteria steps up from being a basic List-class to CL to AL before FL, and fills the current gap. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 03:16, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

CL-class criteria

The article is assessed against the BL-class criteria and meets BL1 or BL2 as well as BL3 and BL4 and BL5 of the remaining criteria.

BL-class criteria

The article is assessed against the following criteria and meets BL1 or BL2 as well as BL3 and BL4 and BL5 of the remaining criteria:

1. BL1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points have appropriate inline citations.
2. BL2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies.
3. BL3.
   • (a) It has a defined structure, including a lead section and meets all of the requirements for stand-alone lists.
   • (b) It makes suitable use of text layout, formatting, tables, and colour; and a minimal proportion of items are redlinked.
4. BL4. It is free from major grammatical errors.
5. BL5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams.

AL-class criteria

The article is assessed against the following criteria and meets all five:

1. AL1. The article is consistently referenced with an appropriate citation style, and all claims are verifiable against reputable sources, accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge, and are supported with specific evidence and external citations as appropriate.
2. AL2. The article is comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral and focused on the main topic; it neglects no major facts or details, presents views fairly and without bias, and does not go into unnecessary detail.
3. AL3.
   • (a) It has an appropriate structure, including a concise lead section that summarizes the topic and meets all of the requirements for stand-alone lists.
   • (b) It makes suitable use of text layout, formatting, tables, and colour; and a minimal proportion of items are redlinked.
   • (c) It is easy to navigate and includes, where helpful, section headings and table sort facilities.
4. AL4. The article is written in concise and articulate English; its prose is clear, is in line with style guidelines, and does not require substantial copy-editing to be fully MOS-compliant.
5. AL5. The article contains supporting visual materials, such as images or diagrams with succinct captions, and other media, where appropriate.

FL criteria

1. Prose. It features professional standards of writing.
2. Lead. It has an engaging lead that introduces the subject and defines the scope and inclusion criteria.
3. Comprehensiveness.
   • (a) It comprehensively covers the defined scope, providing at least all of the major items and, where practical, a complete set of items; where appropriate, it has annotations that provide useful and appropriate information about the items.
   • (b) In length and/or topic, it meets all of the requirements for stand-alone lists; does not violate the content-forking guideline, does not largely duplicate material from another article, and could not reasonably be included as part of a related article.
4. Structure. It is easy to navigate and includes, where helpful, section headings and table sort facilities.
5. Style. It complies with the Manual of Style and its supplementary pages.
   • (a) Visual appeal. It makes suitable use of text layout, formatting, tables, and colour; and a minimal proportion of items are redlinked.
   • (b) Media files. It has images and other media, if appropriate to the topic, that follow Wikipedia's usage policies, with succinct captions. Non-free images and other media satisfy the criteria for the inclusion of non-free content and are labeled accordingly.
6. Stability. It is not the subject of ongoing edit wars and its content does not change significantly from day to day, except in response to the featured list process.

Comments

It will probably be necessary to introduce a new section to WP:MILMOS to go into specific details regarding list/table structure and layout. The criteria does not go into specifics, and relies on editors/reviewers to refer to MOS and anyway, regardless of what class is being targeted in any area of Wiki. Given our high standards, a MILMOS#lists section could carefully detail the standards we expect. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 03:27, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Palmerston Forts Society information now members only

The Palmerston Forts Society whose FortLogs provided much detailed technical information about forts in the UK, especially Victorian ones, has moved its information into a members only area. The society's pages were frequently quoted as external references for fort pages, and presumably those links now need to be removed. I have informed the society that Wikipedia will probably have to remove their references, and pointed them to this page. Vicarage (talk) 07:03, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily - they may be mirrored on an archive site, for example. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:18, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

It seems much of the useful information has been moved to the Victorian Forts site. I have contacted them about referencing their site. Vicarage (talk) 07:46, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

One obvious change would be to add all the fort data sheets from http://www.victorianforts.co.uk/fortdata.htm to the entries in category Category:Palmerston Forts. Vicarage (talk) 08:00, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

A wikipedia search shows that many of the links here are to www.palmerstonforts.org.uk, while the society has changed the URL to www.palmerstonfortssociety.org.uk. There is a redirect in place, but the deep links are broken. Any attempt to resolve the situation should use both addresses. For example all 49 links given by [this search] are broken Vicarage (talk) 08:40, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

David Moore, the author of the fort data sheets, current Victorian Forts admin, and ex-admin of PFS, confirms that the content was moved after the PFS decided it clashed with their charitable status. He is please for the the content to have wide visibility. I will go ahead with the changes to External Links. I will not be changing References. Vicarage (talk) 09:54, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Hchc2009 (talk) 09:55, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

The historical content that previously appeared on the Palmerston Forts Society website has been moved in its entirety to the Victorianforts website due to constraints imposed by the current committee on the use of links to trading website Amazon for the purpose of deriving income. This fell foul of their charitable constitution which forbade generating an income by trading. All links to the fact sheets on the old Palmerston Forts Society can be changed to the corresponding pages on the new website. Whilst the original facts sheets have been placed inside a protected 'members only' page on the PFS site they are now out of date and are not actively updated by the author. The ones on the new site are actively maintained and are being expanded.David Alan Moore 12:55, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Some of the data sheets are also referenced from the Island Eye website, but are outdated and unmaintained, so also need to be changed to Victorian Forts ones. Vicarage (talk) 11:20, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

All the above changes complete. Vicarage (talk) 15:39, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Battle of Farmington

I just came across this article, which covers two differant battles. Should this be split into two articles? Wild Wolf (talk) 21:04, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Normally you'd expect "First battle of..." and "Second battle of..." and a disamib. page with the two listed. Odd how the creator here has not. If there is enough material available to split into two, go for it.. at the moment if you split them as they are you'll get two very short stubs, and given that this one is unsourced already, seems pointless unless you're able to expand and reference, even a little, them once split. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 21:09, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The two battles occured to differant states, in Tennessee and Mississippi. Perhaps Battle of Farmington (Tennessee) and Battle of Farmington (Mississippi) would be better? Wild Wolf (talk) 21:19, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Only if it's standard Wiki practice to name battles that share a place name but in different states like that. Ma®©usBritish ^[chat] 21:44, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, to name it First and Second would imply that the battles occurred in the same location. I don't know that this is a particularly common phenomenon (cue links to numerous examples) so it's unlikely to have much precedent. Disambiguating by states is probably the best option. Parsecboy (talk) 21:48, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, I tried to find you numerous examples, but in doing a quick look at List of American Civil War battles the only two examples I found were Battle of Jackson, Tennessee / Battle of Jackson, Mississippi and Battle of Waynesboro (Virginia) / Battle of Waynesboro (Georgia). And those two examples don't follow the same naming pattern …Mojoworker (talk) 23:42, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

In this case, the battles could be disambiguated by year. There should probably be redirects and disambiguation pages from various other naming schemes. Magic♪piano 23:57, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I think disambiguating by year would imply same location, as with "First" and "Second". I think "Battle of Farmington, Tennessee" and "Battle of Farmington, Mississippi" (like the Battle of Jackson example) would be the way to go, as it avoids that confusion and follows the convention for geographic locations. -- saberwyn 00:58, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

"First", "Second", "Third", etc., implies the battle happened at the same place. This is two battles at two locations that share the same name. Best to disambiguate by state (if there is enough material to justify separate articles) Bwmoll3 (talk) 03:43, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Commas are usually used to disambiguate place names whereas brackets are used for other types of dab. --Bermicourt (talk) 07:07, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I think that covering two separate subjects that only share a name violates some policy somewhere, but I can't remember which. Separate by state or year would work. 70.24.251.194 (talk) 09:22, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class review for HMS Argus (I49) needs attention

A few more editors are needed to complete the A-Class review for HMS Argus (I49); please stop by and help review the article! Thanks! Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Featured Article Candidacy for Japanese aircraft carrier Akagi needs attention

A few more editors are needed to complete the FAC for Japanese aircraft carrier Akagi; please stop by and help review the article! Thanks!--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Help Requested with bug on new article.

I've just started an article on Brigadier Denis Ormerod but my reflist isn't showing and I'm getting a warning saying it isn't there. I can't fathom out if I've done something wrong or if it's a bug in Wikipedia, Could an experienced editor please look at this and see if they can figure out what is wrong please? Thank you in advance. SonofSetanta (talk) 17:24, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Seems fixed to me. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Aye, it was a dodgy endref Kernel Saunters (talk) 17:31, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Not sure what a dodgy endref is but I'm grateful to the Kernel for his help. SonofSetanta (talk) 17:33, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

this was the fix. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:35, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Spotted it now. Why on earth did that cause a problem? SonofSetanta (talk) 17:46, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Your second reference was opened but not closed 'cos of the effectively missing </ref>. That's generally enough to confuse the parser. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:35, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

It's pretty easy to miss. I still do sometimes, too. :( Preview is your friend. :D TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 01:47, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

A-class review of Battle of Radzymin (1920)

The A-class review of the article on Battle of Radzymin (1920) needs your help. The article is now a GA and it's been reviewed and copy-edited countless times, but the previous assessment timed out due to insufficient voters/reviewers. Current assessment (check here) is also likely to time out unless one more person drops in. Pretty, pretty please. //Halibutt 17:53, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

War of the Triple Alliance v Paraguayan War

There is a move discussions which may be of interest to this group and some fresh opinion would be of help in keeping discussion along the right track. A lot of passion seems to have been aroused by the move. See Talk:Paraguayan War#Requested move 2012. Wee Curry Monster talk 22:43, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class review for Bardanes Tourkos now open

The A-Class review for Bardanes Tourkos is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 01:18, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Medal of Honor

This article has been at FAR for a month: Wikipedia:Featured article review/Medal of Honor/archive2. It really doesn't look to be in that bad of shape to me, and I'm surprised no one is able to take on the work to salvage this star. Or at least let us know if it's so bad it needs to be defeatured. Is there no one here who has a minute to spare to help keep an important FA on board? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:43, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Move proposal at Communist Romania

Title says it all. Just a note to inform interested parties in our project that there is currently an RM on Talk:Communist Romania. The proposed new title is Socialist Republic of Romania. -- Director (talk) 02:58, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

How to bring war articles to FA standard?

Hi, I'd like to know if anyone has suggestions on what is needed to an article about a war become a FA, beyond the FA requisites, of course. Does it need an overview on all sides' armies, equipment, tactics, etc?? Or just the story of the war is enough? Any other idea? Regards, --Lecen (talk) 23:28, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, FA level articles on wars need to provide more than just a narrative of events. They also should also put the war in context and provide some analysis. As such, background on the political and military factors behind the war is necessary, as is an explanation of why things turned out the way they did. Specific details on how the opposing armies were equipped and the specific tactics they used generally aren't necessary unless this was an important part of the war, however. If you haven't already done so, I'd suggest that you look at the FAs listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Showcase for inspiration. Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Nick. I'll write an article about a war that occurred in the 1860s. Do you have specific suggestion of articles that I could use as a model? --Lecen (talk) 23:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Without knowing what war you're planning to write about, not really. I'd suggest that you look at all the FAs and A class articles on wars and see what elements you think would work best for the article you're working on. Nick-D (talk) 07:22, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Good advice. Further, if and when you've found a few articles that have elements in common with the war you're researching, naturally try to take guidance from those most recently promoted to FA, as they'll be the most up-to-date in terms of MOS (both military and general), etc. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:39, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I'll take that in account. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 11:16, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

War of the Bavarian Succession may be a good model to go off of. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 19:24, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I think I've reviewed a few over the last year or so; the good ones have a clear story, explain the background so that you don't need to read another article to understand what's happening, give just enough detail about the weapons, units and terrain that a non-specialist can make sense of it all, and end with a decent "so what" section (i.e. the consequences of the war). Hchc2009 (talk) 20:02, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class review for List of Ohio class submarines now open

The A-Class review for List of Ohio class submarines is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! --Sp33dyphil ©^hat_ontributions 08:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Featured article candidacy for John Balmer now open

The featured article candidacy for John Balmer is now open. Comments from reviewers are needed to help determine whether the article meets the criteria for featured articles; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Ian Rose (talk) 13:53, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Featured article candidacy for Battle of Arawe now open

The featured article candidacy for Battle of Arawe is now open. Comments from reviewers are needed to help determine whether the article meets the criteria for featured articles; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Nick-D (talk) 04:59, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Voting for Military Historian of the Year about to close!

As a quick reminder, voting for the military historian of the year award will close in just over 50 minutes. Please vote now if you haven't already done so! Nick-D (talk) 23:02, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

"voting closes at 23:59 (GMT) on 28 January" – is 24 hours away.. it's 23:59 of 27 January in 35 mins. ;) Ma®©usBritish^[chat] 23:25, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Um, yes :0 (it's 28 January here, and the GMT ticker at the top right of my screen says it's 23:30). All the better though, as people actually have just over 24 hours to vote ;) Nick-D (talk) 23:31, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I did wonder at the time why the nominations were closed a day early. Makes sense now; working from an Aussie timezone.. lol Ma®©usBritish^[chat] 23:36, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Face it, mate, with the clear domination of Antipodian editors in the vote count, that's the only timezone you need to know... ;-) Cheers, 23:46, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Is it that your always upside down and unlike the rest of the world have nothing better to do with your time. LOL Jim Sweeney (talk) 23:51, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Australia has a rich and diverse culture, unlike that of certain European islands. The coffee is also a lot better. As is the weather. Nick-D (talk) 05:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

How do you think we get that Stiff upper lip. Jim Sweeney (talk) 10:47, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Australia makes good coffee? Hmm, never tried it.. although I doubt it.. if the wine is anything to go by.. yuck – rat poison! Taylor's make some lovely coffee, but Italian coffee is nicest, imo. Any good Aussie ground coffee brands spring to mind? I might try to get some. Ma®©usBritish^[chat] 10:50, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I have to admit I'm partial to French red wine -- and Japanese beer -- but I fully agree with Nick on the coffee front, and that's after spending three fantastic weeks in Italy 18 months ago... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)