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Greece

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Lampad

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Lampad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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There's only one source for these nymphs - a fragment of Alcman that says they are the torch-bearers of Hecate. The details about them being gifts from Zeus or what exactly they do are, as far as I can tell, either made up or a conflation of other details about Hecate. That they are torch-bearers of Hecate is something that can be noted in the relevant column on the nymph page. Endlesspumpkin (talk) 20:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: this is not a proposal to delete, but a proposal to merge to nymph. The scholiast on the Iliad, vi. 21, explaining "nymph", says that Alcman listed the Lampades (translated "Lampads" by Campbell) among the nymphs, and goes on to call them "those who carry torches and lights with Hecate" (Loeb Classical Library, Greek Lyric, vol. II, pp. 438, 439, accessible online through the Wikipedia Library). So that part is verified, although the part about being a gift from Zeus is not. Possibly that comes from an oblique reference to the followers of Hecate—it should not be dismissed out of hand, since we know that Zeus showed great favour to Hecate in gratitude for her support. In any case, it's still a matter of merging content into another article, and shouldn't have been brought to AFD. P Aculeius (talk) 16:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No one is dismissing it out of hand. I generally stay out of wikipedia's oblique bureaucratic processes and rather wish I'd kept to that. I'll just add the detail to the nymph page and not worry about the Lampad page. Endlesspumpkin (talk) 22:13, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you were dismissing it out of hand. I simply meant that the lack of a source at present did not mean that it was unlikely to be true, and thus worth removing without first attempting to find a source, as it might be if it seemed nonsensical. I am not sure what to make of the claim: it could be a genuine report of what an unidentified source says, or an inference perhaps stretched too far by a Wikipedia editor, or a misunderstanding of the source, or just an inexplicable statement. Since the rest of the content is verifiable, this claim seems at least plausible, and I would like to make certain that nobody here can figure out where it came from before excising it. P Aculeius (talk) 04:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The rest of the content is currently verifiable only because Michael Aurel and I already removed two other unverifiable claims. Though having said that, the claim that the Avernian nymphs are the same group is actually also unsourced. The source cited for that claim doesn't make it. He simply references Ovid's mention of them in an entry on Avernus (I didn't poke around thoroughly, but I couldn't find a source outside of Ovid for them, either).
    The Avernian nymphs just happen to also be 'underworld nymphs'. But being related to Hecate is not the same as being a nymph of the underworld. I nominated it precisely because I had already tried to find a source for the claims and could not. Of course I would be happy if more sources *could* be found, because they sound fascinating, but I'm not holding my breath. Endlesspumpkin (talk) 12:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've removed the nymphs mentioned by Ovid; I can't find any reliable source which links them with the Lampades, and the claim seems to come just from Theoi.com (which is notoriously unreliable). – Michael Aurel (talk) 02:08, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) Keep. Though the Alcman fragment [1] is the only ancient source which mentions her, there are quite a few mythological figures who may only be mentioned in a single passage or fragment, but still be deserving of a separate article; notability is determined by coverage in secondary sources, not primary ones. In this instance, we have an article [2] on this fragment, which discusses these figures and their relation to a broader discussion of the connection between Hecate and torches; I think something about their significance in that context, based on Serafini, could be added to the article. I note that they are also mentioned (though briefly) in Jennifer Larson's Greek Nymphs: Myth, Cult, Lore. However, the statement about being a gift from Zeus to Hecate (for her "loyalty" in the Titanomachy?) doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, and I can't find any source for it. – Michael Aurel (talk) 22:48, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Technically I believe that the scholiast on Homer is a second ancient source. It's not clear to me whether everything he says about the Lampades is from Alcman, or if he is merely citing Alcman as a source mentioning them among the groups of nymphs. As for the reason that they might have been a gift to Hecate, it could just have been inferred that all of Hecate's authority as a goddess emanated from Zeus. As I recall, she was given a share of all three worlds (the heavens, the earth, and the underworld), which is a pretty broad set of things! I was hoping Morford & Lenardon might have something to say on it, but I couldn't find anything. P Aculeius (talk) 04:50, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    On your first point, I would guess the latter, though it's a little hard to tell; it would be interesting to see if the scholion mentions them elsewhere, though an edition of the scholia minora might be a tricky one to hunt down. On the second point, it's possible; I'm sceptical, but would happily stand corrected. – Michael Aurel (talk) 08:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Now that archive.org is fully functional again, and full text searches are available, here's a summary:
    • Calame offers no real interpretation, beyond that what the scholiast says is plausible, because of the strong association of Hekate and torches. Amusingly, though, he does suggests that one alternative could be to amend the text to read Limnad (the other being that they are, like the Thyades mentioned with them, to do with Dionysos, rather than Hekate).
    • Gantz (p.141) mentions they exist, but nothing more. His opinion is that the explanation of them being torchbearers of Hekate is probably the scholiast's own, but he gives no reason. Serafini (p. 18) seems to agree with this (but see Iles, below).
    • Larson uses the word but has nothing to say of them - fn. 76 simply states what the scholiast gives. The context in which they are mentioned is to do with the appearance of Dionysos in lyric and choral poetry. The important detail is the Thyades, the Lampades just happen to be in the fragment. Whilst literally true that she says something about them, it doesn't even merit being called 'mentioned in passing'. She doesn't even mention Calame's suggestion that they are also followers of Dionysos.
    • Serafini's paper is more about the association of Hecate and torches in general, and Hecate herself as the torch-bearer. I do not see what could be added from that article to here - no argument that hinges on the Lampades, or extra information given about them. But perhaps someone with better Italian would disagree.
    • An article by Sarah Iles Johnston's article argues that the 'goddesses with bright torches' mentioned in the Getty Hexameters are the Lampades (which would require the scholiast to be reporting something already in Alcman, or at least a tradition from the 5th century BCE - Iles Johnston assumes the former). Other interpretations are available. Bremmer seems to think they're Persephone and Hecate; Demeter and Persephone are another entirely plausible combo.
    • For the identification of the Lampades with the Avernian nymphs I can find only Theoi, which itself gives no citation, but simply gives the Alcman fragment for Lampades and then Ovid and Statius (incorrectly - the reference should be 2.6.100) for Avernian nymphs - notably neither quote has anything to do with Hecate or torches.
    As to the strange detail of how Hecate acquired the Lampades, I have found a source - and it's the same source that gives us the claim (already removed by Michael Aurel) that their torches can drive people mad: Age of Mythology.
    The in-game help section says this: These nymphs were the attendants of Hecate, an unbound Titaness, gifts from Zeus for her allegiance in the Titanomachy. The Lampades served their mistress unflinchingly, bearing torches for her through the dark places of the earth and underworld. The light of their torches brought visions to mortals and often the visions brought madness. The Lampades defended Hecate with their torches just as the Titaness herself fought in the wars of the gods.
    This flavour text helps explain an in-game combat power of the Lampades, by which they can 'invoke chaos on units at range'. Its abilities 'chaotic realignment' turns a target neutral (by 'flashing her torch') and forces it to attack any unit nearby; 'Transfiguration' (again activated by a flash of the torch) turns the target into a chicken.
    Based on the talk page of the user who created this article, I do not think it is implausible that these details find their origin there. Archive.org's first capture of the theoi article is 2006, and the game came out in 2002. But theoi itself was founded in 2000, so it is not impossible that the creators of this gaming, wanting to find units, powers, etc. that they could assign to Hecate, found the Lampades via theoi, and then expanded the idea so they had a bit more detail to stick in their flavour text. I don't think Age of Mythology is particularly renowned for its adherence to ancient sources.
    What we can say for certain, then, is:
    We have a single fragment of Alcman mentioning the Lampades. Scholars do not agree whether the scholiast's explanation is his own, or details that were also in Alcman. One scholar thinks that they might be referenced in the Getty Hexameters. Endlesspumpkin (talk) 16:14, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for doing this digging. I've expanded the article a bit, and added new sources. I've held out on removing the unsourced paragraph in the interest of giving it a fair hearing, though I do think your explanation on the basis of the video game seems plausible; also, the latter sentence in the paragraph looks as though it has come from Theoi. [3] – Michael Aurel (talk) 10:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The final sentence may well come from there—but it merely restates what the article already says about being torch-bearing companions of Hecate.
    I am not certain that the suggestion in one authority that the scholiast "invented" this detail isn't given undue weight here; all that we know of Greek myth comes from a small number of largely fragmentary sources, so it is quite likely that the scholiast reported what he had learned, or at least could infer from that knowledge (for instance, that Hecate's companions bore torches or lamps, presumably being goddesses like herself, and necessarily traveling by night, since that is when Hecate is abroad; and the Lampades are, by definition, the torch-bearing goddesses) rather than making up details that required pure invention on his part, which is how it reads now. I was merely indicating that we don't know whether this detail in the scholiast can be attributed to Alcman, or if the scholiast is our only known source for it.
    As for their association with Hecate's reward for her rôle in the Titanomachy, that may be anyone's guess, since you haven't turned up any usable sources for it. If something turns up later, it can always be re-added. Thank you for expanding and improving the article! P Aculeius (talk) 13:31, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No worries! The point you raise about the article seeming to imply a bit too much that the description of these figures was just a whimsical invention of a sort by a late commentator is fair (I've, for now, softened the language a little in that sentence). I had the same thought when writing that part, but was struggling to find a scholar who expressed an opposing view to Gantz in a clear manner: I don't think Serafini really has an opinion on the matter, Latte (cited in Davies's edition) says it's uncertain what Alcman thought of these nymphs, and regarding Calame, though he does point out that what the scholiast says is "quite possible", I'm not entirely sure whether by this he means it's "quite possible" that Alcman described the nymphs in the same way, or more generally that it makes sense that the scholiast would have made that association. – Michael Aurel (talk) 06:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, asilvering (talk) 02:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep - ancient people and concepts are often based upon a single story in Ancient Greece, or one primary source, or a short chapter in the Bible; think of the Wedding at Cana. Yet there will be reams of scholarship about it. I think this is distinct enough from nymph that a separate article is needed. Bearian (talk) 20:57, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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