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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vivek Verma (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. A close call, but in the end a fairly convincing consensus. The provided sources are not sufficient to establish notability, and an in-depth analysis of them was not able to convince participants of their reliability or suitability. If a new version of this article is to be written once new and better sources can be found, it should go through the AfC process. – bradv🍁 04:14, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vivek Verma

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Vivek Verma (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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This was recently speedily deleted, that speedy deletion was overturned at deletion review, and I'm listing it here as a result of that discussion. There was a previous AfD in 2017. I have no opinion. Hut 8.5 12:29, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Hut 8.5 12:29, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Hut 8.5 12:29, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
1- As his works are there in Bollywood mainstream movies which makes him eligible enough to have an Article on Wiki.
2- Due to point 1 he seems to be having enough References like The Hindu [1], News18 [2], Times of India [3], The Diplomat [4] and others. Stonertone (talk) 13:11, 10 July 2020 (UTC) *Blocked for undisclosed paid editing in violation of the WMF Terms of Use. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:53, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as per my original statements at DRV and elsewhere. Praxidicae (talk) 13:16, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Draftify or failing that, keep. Verma has clearly had a hand in making a number of notable films, and has produced a number of records, and has been discussed at some length in a number of sources. The real question is the quality and reliability of the sources, and whether the movie participation was sufficient to qualify him for an article under NACTOR. I rather suspect that he is in fact notable by Wikipedia rules, but I am not sufficiently aware of who is who in the Indian news market to be confident on the reliability of the sources now cited. Thuis I would favor moving back to draft and asking for an improvement of source quality. Praxidicae argued in the DRV that most of the sources were not RS. If so that does not show that no better sources are available. The article in The Hindu is clearly an RS with significant coverage.Of course, improvements may happen during the AfD. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 13:36, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: It looks like there are reliable sources here; the articles in The Diplomat and News 18 look strong to me. — Toughpigs (talk) 15:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep I'm willing to listen, but the (fairly brief but not trivial) references to him in The Diplomat and the Hindu appear to be enough to get him over the GNG bar. Some other sources appear to be press releases and others I can't really evaluate for notability as I don't know the Indian press well. But just what I can evaluate seems like enough. Hobit (talk) 18:23, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The sources are just not good enough in my view and I question their truthfulness. They are all repeating directly what he has sent to them for republication, none of the interviews show any indication of having been initiated by the papers themselves. If what these papers say is true, I should be able to verify that in other sources.
    When someone produces music for movies, their name is mentioned in passing when newspapers discuss the film. That does not happen for Vivek. Also, when someone produces music for movies, they are given credit in the movie's credit list. Now, what happens if you Google these movies and the subject's name? You'd expect to find movie credit websites and short passing newspaper mentions, but you don't. The only sources that show up are these PR pieces. There are only two possible reasons for why the movie production companies would all forget to give credit to Vivek, either he's 1) lying in these interviews or 2) he is a non-notable assistant at Himesh Reshammiya's sound production studio.
    There are no press releases or newspaper discussions about this supposed "BizAsia Music Award" and I cannot verify that it exist.
    Why did the Hindu decide to write about this video having "caught the netizens' eye" when it has 1200 views?
    If he were actually notable, we'd see passing mentions and movie credits, but we don't.
    – Thjarkur (talk) 11:28, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thjarkur I definetly agree with your statement that "BizAsia Music Award" seems to be a non notable/existing award as I too failed to find reliable sources on it, But I Disagree with the statement that he is not discussed in Movie credit list, and probably you have confused him as Film producer rather then Record producer.
Secondly- He doesn't seem to be lying because lets say these Interviews can be a lie but his name in the credit be clearly seen in The official Youtube Channel of T-Series (company) where the whole Movie album is officially Launched Like This and This stating Vivek Verma Guitarist at HR Musik Studio, There are many credit mentions about his work on Multiple notable Movies like this from the movie Teraa Surroor and all of these are Himesh Reshammiya's Movies. also see This it does have 136+ Million views on it,
Here see these mentions in passing where newspapers are discussing about his works like This for the movie Happy Hardy and Heer you can check Vivek Verma's name in credit in all of these links, Check This too on Koimoi disscussing about his song Humsafar I found other links as well about his work passing mentions like This and there are many websites as well.
If you check The Hindu's article on him here you can see The head line stating set to release his single ‘Aashiyana’, post lockdown means at that point of time when the article was written the song was not released and I think Its not released yet too because this video is not the song its just the Teaser of the song of 47 seconds.
here also you can check his name in credit on Dailymotion like this, and I guess majorly his name is credited as a Guitarist that is why you failed to get info about him. Thanks Dtt1Talk 13:29, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. as this article does have wp:rs like The diplomat, Hindu and zee and these refs are describing about his work briefly enough which makes me vote a Keep here, also i have cited one more reference from The Diplomat this to it, and rest I guess Thjarkur have already removed the non reliable links from the article, the remaining sources are good enough to satisfy GNG. although there are minute things which can be written in the article to make it more better. Dtt1Talk 13:38, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per my statement at Deletion Review. have Coverage Significant enough to pass GNG and Music Bio. Shubhi89 (talk) 13:25, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment- Although the person have done significant work but I think some of the editors on Wikipedia aren’t really happy with the page, as they are unnecessarily removing details which does have verifiable references, This is my very first vote in Article for deletion section and I would like to comment because as I tried reverting thjarkur’s cleaning of the work details from the page, Some admin Rollbacked it Immediately, then I searched for the links as one of the editor above have given the hint about Which anyone can definitely go and verify, Though I have reverted and edited the page I can’t write a keep for that, but I don’t see any problem with the article, although suggestions are welcomed. Do correct my mistakes but please notify me where I am wrong Thanks Thepilipalasgirl (talk) 00:05, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I couldn't find enough significant resources that are reliable and independent of the subject. Fails WP:GNG, WP:MUSICBIO. DMySon 04:51, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Does not have significant in-depth coverage to warrant a standalone article on Wikipedia. Also on a side-note there has just been to much socking on this page and it reeks of paid editing, I guess if you have to pay someone to write about you your generally not notable. - FitIndia Talk Admin on Commons 08:01, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete routine coverage, interviews and passing mentions are not enough to demonstrate notability, and I can't find anything better than what is already available in the article. Fails WP:MUSICBIO. GSS 💬 08:52, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete a barebone article having no significant in-depth coverage. -Hatchens (talk) 11:55, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete the new sourcing is no less WP:MILL than previously, and pretty much publicity items. —— Serial 11:58, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Fails WP:NMUSIC. I don't know about the truthfulness of the subject (not a criterion for consideration) but as a BLP the standards for sourcing are higher. Interviews may be alright for content but rarely advances notability. Wording like "There are three songs which I am doing", "says Vivek Verma", "Advices (sic) Singer Vivek Verma", are self-references. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball and up-coming movies (future events) need independent sources following the criteria of WP:NFF. -- Otr500 (talk) 06:13, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete coverage isn't good enough for a BLP and where paid editing is suspected I simply set the bar a bit higher. Wikipedia is not free publicity.Spartaz Humbug! 21:34, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: I cannot see a valid reason to keep this. YouTube credits are great to have but not for Wikipedia. I could create a channel and give anyone credit I wanted to. I could say the Pointer Sisters performed and wrote a song for a commercial, that doesn’t make it acceptable. The IMDB reference made my eyes hurt trying to read it and again all referenced YouTube and also stated he was an assistant to a higher up who was notable. Add to that, the creator got blocked for COI and when I run the name of the “artist” just through google, I get nothing noteworthy just a couple articles repeating each other and based on interviews he gave. Thanks, Bakertheacre Chat/What I Baked 01:08, 20 July 2020 (UTC) WP:Sockstrike.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:11, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
definitely I would have agreed with you @Bakertheacre: that anyone can make a youtube channel and upload to it, But unless it was the Youtube channel of T-Series (company) that channel is the biggest youtube channel in the world i.e List of most-subscribed YouTube channels for more instance You can also check PewDiePie vs T-Series. although I agree that youtube references are not considered verifiable but in This case it seems to be one as it justifies why those references can considered notable. Thanks --Dtt1Talk 07:29, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

::: Dtt1, I am curious as to why you keep referencing Wikipedia articles instead of actual references as Wikipedia in and of itself is not a valid resource. Thanks, Bakertheacre Chat/What I Baked 07:47, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: The numbers of !votes here seem to suggest a consensus for deletion, but when those arguing to keep have produced sources, arguments in favor of deletion need to demonstrate why those sources are insufficient, to carry any weight. Relisting to allow discussion of the specific sources brought up here and currently used in the article.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde (Talk) 04:38, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Vanamonde93: While I understand what you are trying to do, the first AfD and this AfD have both favorably consented to deletion. The links I click on above take to me Wikipedia articles about newspapers, what a guitarist is, etc. I think this relist needs to not happen as consensus has occurred twice to delete the article. Thanks, Bakertheacre Chat/What I Baked 05:50, 20 July 2020 (UTC) WP:Sockstrike.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:11, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with :@Vanamonde93: without giving any specific reason about those references which does have in depth details about the musician and his work, just voting a Delete doesn't seem to be justifying enough. as I also saw that Þjarkur almost removed all the details from the article, Without any specific reason just stating that they doesn't have verifiable links. and Drmies reverted the edits by user User:Thepilipalasgirl, (although I was about to ask this on Drmies's talk page but after the relist I feel like stating it here only) as can be clearly seen in the history of the article that all his Extended play's (EP) section that his songs like Mai Aur Tu have This reference, Humsafar have This as a verifiable reference. Aashiyaana have this, Udaan have This, Bekhudi (Reprise) have this
and as a guitarist section references also was enough to prove the verifiability of the work see below :
I'm not even going to address the absurdity of using WP or Itunes as sources but is not reliable in the slightest and neither is this nonsense. And I have very serious doubts about the integrity of this source that doesn't even identify an author and is written incredibly poorly. Praxidicae (talk) 10:01, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As a Guitarist

My Concern here is How come they are not supposed to be in the article? --Dtt1Talk 07:05, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Dtt1, so you have listed YouTube channels and also iTunes links to download music. It was stated numerous times in the posting as to why people are stating their opinion and what they are referencing. I myself am unable to find much that would allow him to be notable as his work is nothing that is notable and does not meet the numerous classifications as others have put forth above. For everyone to constantly repeat the same thing gets tiring. Can you please provide valid references that are acceptable and not user made or just a passing mention of him and are not interviews. Something rock solid that would show notoriety would be great! Bakertheacre Chat/What I Baked 07:52, 20 July 2020 (UTC) WP:Sockstrike.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:11, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Bakertheacre, If you would have really checked all the links which I have provided above and the References ( like This and This just to refer the songs) Rest if you have checked the article then you would have not asked the solid sources, and My reply to your vote above was to answer your question about why youtube links are referred in the songs, rest those links are enough to state his notability which are there in the article. Thanks --Dtt1Talk 08:59, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Bakertheacre: The consensus reached in previous discussions isn't really relevant. Arguments presented here need to be substantive enough to establish a new consensus; delete !votes that do not make any reference to the sources presented here cannot receive much weight. Vanamonde (Talk) 14:52, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Still very little analysis of the sources.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:15, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. I feel like a broken record, but more substantive analysis of the sources provided is necessary.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde (Talk) 17:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let me just reiterate for a billionth time and my 3rd or 4th delete vote on this subject, where I've also given analysis of the sources, I strongly believe this should be deleted. It is nothing more than self promotion, including the sources. This is a piece by a guest author for StoriesAsia but it's not even primarily about Vivek Verma. Kathmandu Tribune like many others engages in pay for publication. There is no author on this, there is no evidence it was published by their editorial staff and I cannot express to you how easily it is to pay someone a measly sum of money to publish a puff piece about you but even if it is somehow miraculously by their editorial staff, it's nothing more than a gossip blog equivalent with two sentences to say "HBD!" An interview and thus not independent. Written by their "news desk" with no author, a good indicator it's not independent and is a PR. Simply not a reliable source. An iMDb equivalent listing. Not a reliable source, "Team Newsable" is basically a republishing service. This is basically the only okay source, so that says a lot about the rest. Not rs... a 5 sentence puff piece Praxidicae (talk) 18:37, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lol same as Vanamonde93 mentioned, Feels like a broken record with this subject! undoubtedly Praxidicae's Knowledge for the Wikipedia and analysis for the sources are appreciable, But as Vanamonde93 demanded more substantive analysis of the sources provided, I would love to again represent my version of analysis where Vivek Verma doesn't seem to be failing WP:MUSICBIO per Wikipedia:Notability.
As per Point number 10 in WP:MUSICBIO, He Has been the part of notable compilation album of movies like Prem Ratan Dhan Payo, Aap Se Mausiiquii, Happy Hardy and Heer etc, for credits Check This and my comment above.
No level 2 header please! ——Serial 15:41, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Now lets analyse the sources -
  • The Diplomat- here This which Praxidicae mentioned as "not even primarily about Vivek Verma" is Actually an article (If you read the whole) on the The Rise of Indie Music in India as headlined where they have discussed about different music people from India like Darshan Raval, Gajendra Verma and Vivek Verma, where its in Depth mentioned about Vivek too with other Artists. Secondly stating it a 'Guest Post' would not make any sense as It is not, You can check the Coverage by that Author Here No evidence of him as a Guest Post.

Now Check the second In Depth source on The Diplomat, which is This, The Complete Article is on Vivek Verma.

  • The Hindu- This link Here is undoubtedly a reliable one from The Hindu.
  • The Times of India- As Times of India doesn't have a clear consensus regarding its Reliability, but some of them consider it Notable and that depends on Case to Case scenario, Here This Link from TOI which is a Primary Source, can be considered acceptable as per WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD because this is just not the only references about his debut in Dhollywood, there are other sources available too like This which clearly states that this is not a Puff piece.
  • Kathmandu Tribune- though this website has a partnership with Deutsche Welle it is slightly considered reliable as per This Discussion, although I am not much sure about it but as stated above that This source has no Author to it, I failed to find that, It does have an Author to it.
  • Zee News- In India Zee, Abp these are the few regional most reliable news sources, Since Regional News are at the verge of growth in India, It is considered as acceptable till some extinct because like This link Here are sometimes written By Their News Desks for Instance check This link it is about today's ceremony done by Narendra Modi in Ram Mandir, Ayodhya, it too doesn't have any author and written by News Desk, but we cant say that its a puff piece either.
  • Millennium post- This link Here, Can't say much about it as no such evidence available of the reliability of the source.
  • Bollywood Hungama- considered as reliable for Bollywood related news, But not sure about This link here as Praxidicae said seems like some directory or IMDB.
  • Asianet News- Asianet is Popular In india as a Television Channel, But being popular is not Notability, Also I don't Know much about its News source reliability much, The link is Here
  • Network18 Group- is again a very reliable source basically topics which are based in India, and since This source is not much brief but it is in their Music Section,It seems strong to me where it indicates the authenticity of the source on an artist from an RS.

Keeping the above in Mind on an Overall basis I would stick to my vote as Keep or if failed Weak Keep. Thanks --Dtt1Talk 15:32, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete per Praxidicae's assessment of the sources, demonstrating too heavy a reliance on primary sources and WP:MILL-mentions to sustain the stringent requirements of WP:BLP or BASC. ——Serial 15:43, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It should probably also be noted that some of the sources (many) that dtt1 is pushing as reliable are very clearly fake. Praxidicae (talk) 17:07, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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