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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/University Hospital of Oran

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Vanamonde (Talk) 22:33, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

University Hospital of Oran

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University Hospital of Oran (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Non-notable Algerian hospital that has lacked references since 2014. I couldn't find anything about it that would pass WP:GNG in a search either and even the Arabic language article only has one source that doesn't seem to even be about the hospital. So, I doubt there's anything in-depth and reliable about it out there. The article does it has 600 to 2000 beds. Which might be a lot, but it's a pretty vague range to make any judgement on IMO. Plus, it's not sourced reliably or at all. Which it would have to be for anyone to use it as a keep justification and it wouldn't come before the WP:GNG guidelines if it was anyway. As an alternative to deletion it could be merged with Oran 1 University. Since they are associated and that seems to be the precedent. Although, I'm not really sure what would be merged. Adamant1 (talk) 21:59, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 22:11, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 22:11, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 22:13, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • A hospital this size - especially affiliated to a university - is liable to be notable. The question is not whether it is known to Google. Our coverage of Algeria is dire. Only 2 articles about hospitals in the country. We should be slow to delete one of them. Perhaps if we looked under its proper name, Oran-Mohamed-Boudiaf Hospital, we might find more articles? Google gives me 58,900 results. For a start this is the site of La Peste. That has generated coverage on its own. Rathfelder (talk) 23:24, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep A good place to do WP:before for hospitals is Google scholar. Frequently there will be academic studies on the patients and these are normally in English. The large number of studies on patients from this hospital indicates it's notability. As does the large size. A hospital with 1000 beds likely sees > 500,000 patients per year and is inherently notable. PainProf (talk) 00:42, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To both of you, for one there has to be in-depth coverage of the hospital. That there was studies done on the patients there is totally irrelevant and trivial since its a university hospital. That's litterally what university hospitals do and its extremely trivial since it applies to all of them. Not that you provided any sources about it anyway, but it wouldn't matter if you do. Second, you can't claim something is notable based on an unverifiable, unsourced fact. So either provide a source that it has 1000 beds or its not a valid keep reason. Neither is keeping it because "Google won't have any results since its Algeria." It's not Wikipedia if the topic is obscure and the notability guidelines have to be followed. Plus you say there's 58,900 Google search results. You can't cite the large number of potential hits and then say it should be kept because only 2 of them are articles shows its obscure. That's the definition of not being notable, for any subject. BTW, there's already a Arbabic article for these. So by no means would deleting the English article wipe Algerian topics or even this hospital from Wikipedia. Adamant1 (talk) 09:11, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would argue all University hospitals which have published a significant number of papers are inherently notable. By the way it is important to know that not all Algerians speak Arabic and an article existing in Arabic is no reason to delete here I think quite the opposite actually. Should we be deleting French and German hospitals too on that basis. Many of them have no coverage in English. The other Wikipedia's are independent of each other. Afd is not cleanup. A University hospital should never be merged to the university unless it can be shown to be a part of the organisation. In many countries they are not for example Cambridge University Hospitals NHS foundation trust is affiliated to Cambridge but completely independent from a financial and governance perspective.

https://www.newsweek.com/tale-two-plagues-oran-algeria-covid-19-brings-dystopian-novel-life-1509081

There are only 16 university hospitals in Algeria a country of 40 million. this one has been noted for its role in controlling a plague outbreak in 2003[1]
  1. ^ Bitam, Idir; Baziz, Belkacem; Rolain, Jean-Marc; Belkaid, Miloud; Raoult, Didier (2006-12). "Zoonotic Focus of Plague, Algeria". Emerging Infectious Diseases. 12 (12): 1975–1977. doi:10.3201/eid1212.060522. ISSN 1080-6040. PMC 3291359. PMID 17326957. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
There really seem to be a lot of sources in arabic. Perhaps we should actually just be asking an Arabic speaker to look at them. I am not confident enough in Google translate for the sources I see. The English sources on PubMed indicate this is a large hospital due to the broad range of topics and large number of papers. The journals are actually generally good ones so I don't have any wjalms with that. It clearly exists and from the number of different diseases studied is likely to have in excess of 20 wards with all major specialities represented. PainProf (talk) 14:08, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Re "Should we be deleting French and German hospitals too", the problem isn't that this is an "Arabic" hospital. It's that there aren't any sources in English to determine if it's actually notability enough to warrant an article in the English Wikipedia or not, and like you say yourself the language barrier is barrier to figuring it out. The same would go for a French, German, or hospital in any other language if all other things were the same. We can't rightly keep an article about somewhere that we can't determine the notability of just because we don't speak the language or say that the only way notability can be determined is if an Arabic speaker gets involved in the AfD. If that's the case, then all more reason it should be deleted IMO. I don't think it would be valid to create a bunch of Portuguese stub articles from only English sources and then be like "Sorry you don't speak English. I guess you can't delete them." --2600:6C52:6B80:DBB:9890:309:9E58:5AD7 (talk) 14:50, 20 July 2020 (UTC) --Adamant1 (talk) 14:52, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is zero requirement for English sources. English sources are preferred but not essential where they are unavailable. In this case English sources are available. The different Wikipedias are also different in culture for citation etc. A good example is if you look on most Wikipedia's you will find for instance science articles rely entirely on English sources because science is generally published in English. Many articles are also translated from other languages. Frequently AFDs close as keep where certain languages are difficult to parse through Google translate. Regardless from the search it is clearly a large teaching hospital which is confirmed by the sources in PubMed (which are largely in English) is notable. The sources are respectable academic journals and furthermore the Newsweek article I pointed out shows international coverage. PainProf (talk) 20:18, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, no where ever have I claimed there is a requirement for English sources. Second, the discussion is about the size of the hospital and there no articles, English or otherwise that discuss it. Cool that there's papers on Pubmed about research that took place there, but research papers aren't usable for notability because they are primary sources and don't qualify as in-depth coverage of the hospital. Plus, that the hospital is large because of how much research took place there is your own opinion and notability isn't based on opinions. The standard isn't "large" anyway. It's 500 beds or more and no source, English or otherwise, says how many beds the place has. Period. Again, it's a research hospital. Research hospitals do research. It doesn't mean anything when it comes to notability. The only thing that does is in-depth coverage in multiple reliable sources. That's it, and this hospital lacks it. Even if we knew it had more then 500 beds we would still need the in-depth coverage in multiple reliable sources. The Newsweek article doesn't cut it because it isn't even about the hospital. The only time it's mentioned is in the caption of a picture. Even if it did though, it still wouldn't be enough. Again, the Pubmed research papers do absolutely nothing for notability. Zip, zero, silch, nada, null, ゼロ, Vinduḥ, nothing!! --Adamant1 (talk) 21:49, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You say above "It's that there aren't any sources in English to determine if it's actually notability enough to warrant an article in the English Wikipedia or not". That is not the policy. Sources do not have to be in English. PubMed is a very reliable source. Its not primary research into the hospital. Teaching hospitals are generally notable precisely because they generate research which is reported in independent reputable sources. They employ researchers and academics who are also reported. This is not an argument about whether the article is accurate, or whether the contents of it are true or referenced. Its an argument about whether the hospital is a notable organisation. And if its notable in the Arabic wikipedia its notable in English. Rathfelder (talk) 22:49, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Further to this I have found a report by Finpro which has been referenced by the UK government who I believe would have vetted the report. It is available online here: https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/FinproRy/algeria-health-sector-overview-heli-pasanenzentz-finpro The description is of a large university hospital with 10 operating theatres 1200 beds, 40 departments, built at a cost of 120 million euros. Cited in this country of origin report by the home office.https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/50ffeb2d2.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjcm5_v9tzqAhXug-AKHfCNCEwQFjAMegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1Qh5NnV54yM1fW2AdKFFn4. I think those sources are good additions. PainProf (talk) 22:58, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I also added the plague outbreak, as one of only 10 outbreaks in the last 20 years that could even have been independently notable. PainProf (talk) 00:02, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, I said there wasn't any sources in English or any other language to establish and there wasn't. The Arabic article only cites one extremely trivial source. So I was 100% correct. And Pubmed can be a reliable source to use in articles. That's different then using it in an AfD though. Just like Twitter is OK to use in articles, but it's not OK to use in AfDs to establish something notability. Reliability of a source and notability of topic are two completely different things and standards. Your really gas lighting the hell out of this. Feel free to show me anywhere that says teaching hospitals are generally notable. All your doing is giving your opinion repeatedly and your not baking it up with anything. Just like your whole thing that it must be notable because there's an Arabic article on it. WP:OSE isn't a valid argument. Also, cool you found sources how many beds the hospital has. Neither one can be used to establish notability though because they are primary sources. It should be pretty obvious that a random slide presentation isn't usable to establish notability. So, find some actually reliable in-depth secondary sources. Otherwise, this isn't notable. Until then, I'm done with the discussion because it's completely ridiculous and your seriously committing WP:BLUDGEON by continuing it. Especially by continuing to post sources that are so obviously not usable to establish notability. It's completely ridiculous that you posted a source in the article that doesn't even talk about the hospital to. The "plague" articles don't even discuss it in depth. They aren't even about the hospital!! It's pretty clear you don't give a crap about the guidelines or doing this the proper way. So, I'm done with this. --Adamant1 (talk) 00:05, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • When I look for Arabic sources I find plenty. Detailed discussion every week of events in the hospital. But I am not sure that the title of the article matches the name by which the hospital is known in Arabic. Rathfelder (talk) 08:13, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think a more correct name is CHU Hospital of Oran, there is a second notable hospital EHU hospital. They appear to be highly related hospitals. I think the confusion is partly because the French words translate the same with only a minor difference. Maybe A good name for the article is Oran public hospitals as these are the only 2 and establish redirects. http://www.dsp-oran.dz/index.php/structures-sanitaires/ehu see this website which seems to be the source we needed. Once I add that in it is much easier to describe the sources. All of the work on the page is currently describing CHU hospital. The arabic titles also have a name attached.PainProf (talk) 12:40, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be fine with a name change to the article if that's what ends up being the problem. It would explain why I couldn't find anything about it, even in a few of the sources that we know about. --Adamant1 (talk) 00:10, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Where did I say there were sources to keep the article? --Adamant1 (talk) 03:21, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's how I read the comment directly above. — Toughpigs (talk) 03:22, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well you read it wrong. --Adamant1 (talk) 03:24, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize for misunderstanding you there. I struck that sentence. — Toughpigs (talk) 13:29, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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