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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Turane Jutu

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The article is found to be a hoax, and is therefore unsuitable for inclusion. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 11:02, 1 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Turane Jutu

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Turane Jutu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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The article is a hoax. No such person named Turane Jutu has ever existed. The sources in the article point to nowhere. Turane Jutu is not even a Turkish name. This is all just one big joke. Can't believe this article has survived for this long. But please, be my guest and correct me if I'm wrong. Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:03, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Hi @EtienneDolet: There are so many reliable sources to establish this persons notability that I can’t imagine anyone saying this is a made up article. I’m asking Checkingfax into this discussion too as I’m not exactly sure what AfD policies you’re following in nominating this article and am at a loss to understand this. Anyway, you can begin here with the book Turkish People of Armenian Descent[1] to read more about him or the Armenians in Sweden group Armeniska[2] you can read too about him. [3] Thanks. Picomtn (talk) 08:21, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://books.google.com/books/about/Turkish_People_of_Armenian_Descent.html?id=Jym2cQAACAAJ
  2. ^ http://www.armeniska.se/index.php/en/organisation/history
  3. ^ http://www.genocide1915.org/ogonvittnen_diplomater.html
Comment That "book" is nothing but Wikipedia content. I can't find anything about Turane Jutu in your second link. As for your third link, that website was most likely created after the Wikipedia article, so that info is probably copied from it. Also, this deletion is perfectly reasonable considering that all the sources cited in the article don't point to this "Turane Jutu" person. I have yet to have encountered a source that attests to his existence. Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:41, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Reply Hi @EtienneDolet: Yes, I do understand your concerns regarding the citing of a book relying on Wikipedia content, but that doesn’t make it unreliable. And here are two other books that cite this person.[1][2] The second link was to the organization behind the third link, and I would think that if anyone was able to verify the validity of this person they would, which they did in the third link. I will admit though that there does exist a sort of circular-chain of facts regarding this subject, but is not at all unusual when dealing with controversial subject matter (Armenia genocide) and witnesses to it. I would have rather seen this article submitted for improvement rather than be nominated for deletion due to its subjects (maybe) historical importance, and would require a very extensive research effort utilizing academic papers/articles/books, etc. not available on the internet, and which I’m going to access as time permits. Thanks. Picomtn (talk) 09:51, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.betterworldbooks.com/witnesses-of-the-armenian-genocide-id-115583982X.aspx
  2. ^ http://www.amazon.com/Witnesses-Armenian-Genocide-Including-Morgenthau/dp/B007S796K8
  • Those two books are also simply collections of Wikipedia articles. Both Books LLC and Hephaestus Books have the business model of copying all the Wikipedia articles in a category and calling the result a book and the articles chapters, and then printing on demand if anyone is gullible enough to stump up the exhorbitant price. Of course this makes them unreliable as sources for Wikipedia, because to use them would mean that we are citing ourselves. I would also strongly suspect that the non-book links that you gave above use Wikipedia as a source. They certainly post-date our article. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 11:29, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
They are not two books, they are the same book. Doug Weller talk 15:36, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
They are two books with the same title, and probably the same content, which is unsurprising because each of those publishers uses Wikipedia category names as titles. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 15:41, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note Again, I’m not disagreeing with any assertion being made, just cautioning that EXTREME prudence needs to be exercised when dealing with this articles subject, especially when viewed in the light of today’s news[1] showing yet another major attempt by Turkish supporters to suppress knowledge of the Armenian Genocide. And, with this article being nominated for deletion, instead of improvement by WP experts, on the same day as this is happening can lead to many questions. I hope you (and others) fully understand these concerns. Thanks. Picomtn (talk) 13:19, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.rt.com/news/340446-wsj-ad-denies-armenian-genocide/
  • How can a discussion in which Étienne didn't take part and was not about him, and another discussion in which he supported the position that an island had historically been mainly inhabited by Armenians rather than Turks, possibly be construed by anyone as him having a pro-Turkish or anti-Armenian stance? I'm sure that there are plenty of Turkish nationalists who would assume the reverse, for which there is also no evidence. As I have said elsewhere, you really need to learn some of the basics about the English Wikipedia, such as that it is not the American Wikipedia and that articles can't be sourced to themselves, before you start offering advice to experienced editors. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 16:03, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question Hi @Étienne Dolet: On 27 October 2015 you edited this article adding content to it, but today you say this article is a hoax--what happened to change your mind in the past 6 months? Thanks. Picomtn (talk)
  • Try looking at what Étienne did 6 months ago. It certainly wasn't adding content, so there would have been no reason for him to check whether this was a hoax or not. You should be thanking him for noticing now that it is a hoax, which nobody else noticed in nearly 9 years, rather than questioning his motivation, which is obviously to improve Wikipedia. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 16:31, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per my comments above, and, in looking for other sources, I can find nothing that isn't copied from or sourced to Wikipedia. It is precisely because this general subject area is controversial that we need to be extra-careful about not hosting misinformation. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 15:29, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Armenia-related deletion discussions. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 15:38, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to add this to the Turkey deletion list but for some reason couldn't save it. Could someone else please do that? 86.17.222.157 (talk) 15:38, 21 April 2016 (UTC) [reply]
Done. Doug Weller talk 15:54, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete If I had found this article prior to the AfD I might have deleted it as a hoax. The sources I can check that qualify as RS don't mention him. Jody Rosen is real but she writes about pop culture. This source[1] is about birth control, Black Americans and genocide with no evidence it mentions him (see this review[2]) Can anyone find any discussion of this name in reliable sources? Doug Weller talk 15:54, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Doug Weller: No, this name in its present form cannot be relied upon and from just the most basic of my research shows that Turane was created as a form of the word truth, while the Jutu appears to be a designation of a present day Iranian village named Jitu, and when putting these two words together (very roughly) would mean the truth teller from Jitu. This, of course, violates (extremely) WP:OR, but also points to this person maybe being a Turkish army officer named Lieutenant Sayied Ahmed Moukhtar whose statement about this genocide was documented by the British.[1] As to if this is the person this article is about I honestly don’t know, but many weeks, maybe months, will have to be spent figuring it out which is why I’m advocating (at least for awhile) that this article remain intact. If my (or others) additional research doesn’t bear out these facts then of course this article should go, but what’s the hurry? Thanks. Picomtn (talk) 16:34, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.armenian-genocide.org/br-12-26-16_1.html
Because as it is it's a hoax, with fake sources. We shouldn't allow that. If you want to create a new article about this real person that's great. Doug Weller talk 16:41, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Doug Weller: Yes, I'm going to create a new article due to new ANI information I recieved that suggests this article is a blending (their words not mine) of various Turkish officers, not one single individual. Thanks. Picomtn (talk)
Picomtn, please take a step back and think about what you are saying. Wikipedia is based on verifiability, not ridiculous tenuous connections whose probability of being true is lower than negligible. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 16:49, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And our article says that the subject was born in Van Province in Turkey. Jitu is a small village hundreds of miles from there in Iran south-east of Tehran. What possible connection could there be between them? 86.17.222.157 (talk) 17:21, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reference 3 is fake - the cited page 36 in "The Armenian Genocide: History, Politics, Ethics" by Richard G Hovannisian, is about the Crimean War. Reference 6, Bloxham, 'On the Memory of the Armenian Genocide', p.98, is probably also fake, it is an article not a book and there is no page 98 in it. The article is available here [3]. I don't have access, but its page numbers are 74-86. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:05, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So yes it's fairly certain its a hoax article, but I'd have left it alone since it has survived for sooooh long - 8 1/2 years! Only its creator will know its purpose - the creation of a harmless example to show Wikipedia's ability to spread misinformation into other sources perhaps. If it is deleted, I wonder how long it will take for the misinformation to vanish from the internet. I don't know anything of the Wikipedia history of Tugbaa, Zumoki, Artaxiad (and whoever else he went by - the list of names is long) but it might be interesting to explore that history. He got a year for this, his last non-sockpuppet post: [4] The other two editors are still around, though I hope not still abusing Wikilinks. I'd have said wikilink abuse like this (linking Armenian Genocide to "Libel") is far worse than calling someone a "fag" while correcting that abuse, but an administrator thought different. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:38, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You got to be kidding. That's hardly a WP:CANVASS. Tiptoe is welcome to vote keep or delete. I could care less. But the article is junk regardless of whether it survives or not. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:34, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And you, Checkingfax, were invited here by Picomtn. Pots and kettles? 86.17.222.157 (talk) 22:57, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No focus at all is required - its hoaxyness fills the entire field of view! AfDs are a boring ten a penny a day, so more interesting would be the circumstances behind this article's creation 8 years ago (which is why I'm not voting "delete" - I don't want to contribute to the destruction of a curious relic from the past, regardless of Wikipedia's article policies and guidelines). Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:43, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why on Earth would we want to put a clear-cut hoax into draft space? And what possible "better improvements" can there be to such a clear-cut hoax? Didn't you even read the discussion above before commenting? 86.17.222.157 (talk) 07:28, 28 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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