Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1950 Atlético Mineiro European tour

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sandstein 10:40, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1950 Atlético Mineiro European tour

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

A tour consisting only of friendly matches doesn't seem to confer notability. The article claims Atletico Mineiro was the first team from Minas Gerais to tour Europe, which is fine, but really who cares? If they were the first team from South America as a whole, or even just Brazil, that would be different, but this is excessive. Furthermore, there are only two sources in the article, both of which only corroborate the fact that the tour happened, not that it was in any way notable. This would be better suited as part of an article on the overall history of Atletico Mineiro. – Pee Jay 11:50, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. – Pee Jay 11:55, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - no evidence of notability. Giant Snowman 12:38, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
comment, leaning on keep. At least merge into History of Clube Atlético Mineiro (but the history article is of good size already, so this is probably a normal split from it). I am not sure what the standards for football tournaments are, but I note that a European tour for a Brazilian club back in 1950 is very much more relevant than it is today, as it was rare then. Note that regular official competition between Europe and South American teams only started in 1960 (Intercontinental Cup (football)), with a few early attempts in the 1950s (Copa Rio, Pequeña Copa del Mundo de Clubes). A truly global competition exists only since 2005, with a initial tournament in 2000 (FIFA Club World Cup). So a 1950 friendly tournament may be quite relevant. It certainly was very much so for Atlético Mineiro's history as they have a sentence in their anthem - "Nós somos campeões do gelo" ("we are the ice champions") [1] - which is otherwise incomprehensible for a team from the tropics (or nearby, not sure - it's hot, anyway, no ice there :-). The club webpage list this has one of their international titles - títulos. By itself not the strongest argument, as they also list more recent friendlies (1980s and onwards) which I would not vote to keep, for being more recent. If you search for it in Portuguese e.g. "atletico mineiro campeao do gelo" you'll find a few more pages than looking for it in English. E.g., a couple of news video images - 4-0 win w/ Hamburg (Germany) and 2-1 win w/ Stade Français (France) (yes, not much of a crowd there...); or a blog that references a couple of books (futebolarj.blogspot.pt); and news from when At. Mineiro played at the FIFA CWC. Note that in Brazil (a federal nation) state championships are a big deal, Brazil is a huge country and it only has a national championship since 1970 or so, so references to the state is quite normal, for Brazilian football culture. Not the greatest subject, nor the greatest article, but this looks much more relevant and historically significant than many of the recentist stuff we have about football. - Nabla (talk) 18:57, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete - non-notable friendly tour. Fenix down (talk) 11:59, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - The refs above and below suggest GNG in non-english language sources. The article needs expanding with this content. Fenix down (talk) 16:14, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, but significant improvement of the article needed. - It seems the general impression about the subject, which the article itself as it is right now conveys, is that it is nothing more than a regular friendly tour, not different from any other tour from any other club around the world, which would mean it would not be notable at all. Although the article itself isn't well-written and doesn't provide much relevant information about the subject as to its notability, the tour represented more than just a "regular" one, as Nabla has said. Even though it wasn't the first South American or Brazilian club's tour to Europe, it was indeed a rare fact for a Brazilian football club at the time (a time in which leagues at national level did not even exist and state-level football was the only active one) to do so, especially at winter time and in the wake of the Maracanazo. The tour and its outcome were seen at the time it happened as historically relevant for Brazilian football itself, as these news from Jornal dos Sports (the largest sports newspaper at national level) explicitly say: 1 2 3. Some more recent sources covering the fact, namely a TV news piece by ESPN Brasil, news by Hoje em Dia and Superesportes, articles at Ludopedio and 11 Freunde (German sports magazine), and a book ("Diário de um Craque", by José do Patrocínio Vieira), besides the ones Nabla has cited, show the tour is at least notable enough to be a news topic even at present time. Felipe Bini (talk) 16:00, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Europe-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:23, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Brazil-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:23, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:23, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:23, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: despite the sources being reliable, I don't see a page for European tours from Santos, which was the first team to gain some notoriety in Europe, so why maintain this one? Of course, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but let's be reasonable, no one except Atlético fans/supporters (and we have to consider that they have at least a basic understanding of English) will enter this article. MYS 77 ^✉ 20:50, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: On a "historical" note, Santos' notoriety in Europe was achieved mostly because of its Libertadores and Intercontinental victories and general success in the 60s, a time in which obviously continental and intercontinental competition already existed and Brazil itself was already established as a "big" footballing nation (unlike the period of the event in question), so under these circumstances friendly tours would hardly be notable (notice we are not even discussing later Atlético Mineiro tours either, which would obviously fail GNG as well, but a specific one). What's on discussion isn't club A or club B's international notoriety, but the notability of this specific tour to deserve an article. You've already addressed WP:OSE (and WP:OCE) yourself, but if a Santos or any other club's tour in any way meet the GNG objective criteria by having coverage from reliable sources, like you said yourself this one does, it could very well be suitable for an independent article. "no one except Atlético fans/supporters (...) will enter this article" is hardly an argument either (WP:NOBODYREADSIT, WP:LOCALFAME). All in all, I believe the sources (which exist in more than one language and country) show the subject meets GNG and would be oddly placed in the club's general History article. Felipe Bini (talk) 23:15, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

- comment 1) I am not a Atlético Mineiro fan. 2) Remarks about Atletico fans' English Language competence is irrelevant, uncalled for, and inelegant. - Nabla (talk) 20:46, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:05, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. There are enough sources to indicate general notability, it's too big to sensibly merge into the club's history, and the historical context of the tour makes it an interesting and valuable addition to what is supposed to be an encyclopedia. As to OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and NOBODYREADSIT, someone should check out the contents of Template:Friendly tournaments 2015 and predecessors... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:05, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Seen in historical context, this was an important and noteworthy excursion of a Brazilian team in Europe. Germany had been barred from participation in international events, and only in 1954 made their comeback at the World Cup. As has been pointed out, there were no other intercontinental championships at the time. Most of the games drew large crowds, I think modern-day Wikipedia users are unaware of the proportions: 30,000 people was the average attendance of the World Cup in 1954 in Switzerland. Besides, there are lots of sources from the pre-internet times, print media and TV coverage/news reels. A clear pass of WP:GNG. Kraxler (talk) 18:34, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I'm not a soccer/football fan, but it's an interesting episode in the context of the social history of the city of Belo Horizonte. Info on which is sorely lacking in Wikipedia and elsewhere. The word "football" should appear in the first sentence, not at the end of the first paragraph. Prburley (talk) 19:24, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.