Samwilson

OpenStreetMap query

Hi Sam, I'm wondering whether your OpenStreetMap expertise has an answer to this question. As a trial, in the article Peron, Western Australia, I tried to replicate the map feature some NSW suburbs have (see Ryde, New South Wales for an example), but it does not display a correct map. I checked OpenStreetMap and Peron, Western Australia seems to be correctly linked to the right Wikidata item (as far as I can tell). I think, it would be a useful addition to the WA suburb articles to have the OpenStreetMap shown in the Infobox. Any idea why it isn't displaying? Calistemon (talk) 10:11, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

@Calistemon: It looks like the relation for Peron didn't have the wikidata key. It's sort of counter-intuitive, but the link for the maps comes not from the Wikidata item to OSM, but rather from OSM back to Wikidata (as far as I know, OpenStreetMap relation ID (P402) doesn't affect anything (although I hope it's used by some tool or other to find OSM objects that need updating!). The relation for Ryde has the right key, and I've just updated Peron. It'll take a couple of days to come through to here I think. Sam Wilson 14:23, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Sam. I will go and see if I can replicate what you have done. What do you think, once functional, would these maps be a useful addition to the suburb info boxes? Ryde, for example, doesn't even have the old style location maps any more. Calistemon (talk) 03:52, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I now understand where my misunderstanding with the Wikidata link for OSM was: I looked at the Borough/Suburb feature on OSM, which had the link, but it needs to be made Administrative Boundary feature instead! Many thanks for teaching me! I have added Wikidata links for all City of Rockingham suburbs and will se if the maplink for the infobox works in a few days. One thing I haven't got my head around yet is why it doesn't work for the Rockingham Lakes Regional Park (but once upon a time did) but does for Beeliar Regional Park. I can't see a difference for the two at OSM, see Rockingham and Beeliar. Calistemon (talk) 08:25, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, nope, I can't figure out what the difference is there either! Sam Wilson 13:20, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Just to let you know, I have posted a question at OSM Help (see here) on why the Rockingham Lakes Regional Park map isn't displaying but nobody has come up with a solution yet. Calistemon (talk) 05:00, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

@Calistemon it's most mysterious. I've unglued the polygons as suggested; maybe that was it. Have to wait a couple of days to find out I guess. Sam Wilson 05:27, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

It appears, none of the recent changes from over a week ago on OSM have come through yet. Previous changes, up to the 20th, came through within 12-24 hours but the changes you made to the Fremantle suburbs as well as the ones I have done to Armadale suburbs don't seem to have updated. At least, when I change the map and preview, I just get the blue OSM map. Is this normal for OSM? Calistemon (talk) 00:18, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

I've never looked very closely, but I feel like in the past I've waited more than a week. I'm not sure. Although, I do wonder if there's something strange going on with the rendering, because these carparks are appearing where I'm sure Wikimedia maps never used to render such things (one of them is this on OSM). I'm not sure if there's anything that exposes the replication status, but I know that there have in the past been cases of changes being missed (e.g.). Maybe wait another day or two and then file a Phabricator task against the #Maps project? Sam Wilson 00:30, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

I reported the car park wierdness: phab:T289828 Sam Wilson 00:40, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Believe it or not, after a rather long wait, this may now have come good! Rockingham Lakes displays correctly again and the local map on LGAs and suburbs now displays! Calistemon (talk) 03:21, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Saying that, while it worked for the regional parks and LGAs as well as the Armadale suburbs it doesn't yet work for the Bayswater ones. The only difference I can see is that the Bayswater ones were linked 2 days later than the Aramdale ones. Calistemon (talk) 04:41, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

That's great that it's working, at least a bit! I can't see which Bayswater suburbs aren't working, it looks like they're all still using the old-style maps (although I haven't checked all). Sam Wilson 01:10, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

(Oops, forgot to ping @Calistemon.) Sam Wilson 01:11, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I tried the a few of the Bayswater ones in preview and they didn't display so I didn't make the change. I think, we just have to be patient and try again in a little while. Calistemon (talk) 02:12, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Sam, I have now added OSM maps to almost all Perth suburb articles. Three I still have to do because I made a mistake on OSM which I have fixed and which just needs an update. However, there is another eight that elude me, the above mentioned eight Suburbs of the City of Bayswater (Category:Suburbs in the City of Bayswater). None of these will display the OSM map boundaries, just the "blue OSM screen of death". Any ides what could be different on those eight? Calistemon (talk) 14:00, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

@Calistemon: I've been looking and looking, and can't figure it out! Sam Wilson 06:03, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Neither can I. It's really weird that it only affects those eight suburbs of one city! I thought I was on to something when I realised that the Wikidata item for Bayswater and Dianella was linked to two different items on OSM, a Relation and a Node, but I found the same for another suburb where the map works so that doesn't seem to be it either. Calistemon (talk) 06:07, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Sam, I have gone back to OSM with a query as I found a little oddity in the Bayswater suburbs Nodes and Relations. Lets see if anybody can or is willing to help. Calistemon (talk) 07:33, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Sam, a note on this old topic: Just for the fun of it, as I'm currently linking wikidata items for WA locations on OSM, I gave this eight suburbs a go once more and suddenly the OSM map is displaying correctly. Don't ask me why, but that should be all Perth suburbs done now for OSM maps. Calistemon (talk) 16:47, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

@Calistemon: Hey that's great news. I wonder what the change was — perhaps nothing, and the data was just finally updated in the Wikimeda DB. I've been trying to get all the populations done for Perth suburbs… might get there this arvo. Sam Wilson 07:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I saw, phantastic effort. I have done all the WA country locations. I know moved on to linking all WA locations wikidata items in OSM to allow the infobox to display the map same as the Perth suburbs do. Slow work but getting there. Calistemon (talk) 09:17, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Please

I have stuffed up the 74 and 75 pages - please have a look - I am sure it is fixable... JarrahTree 10:22, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

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dead link ref samwilson.id.au

Are you able to fix this dead link - https://samwilson.id.au/Photos/picture/2461/category/194 ? Mitch Ames (talk) 12:57, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Oops, I thought I'd caught all of those old ones. Thanks for pointing it out; fixed now. I'll remove the dead link template. Sam Wilson 01:01, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:47, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

stumped

Is it too precious to think that the style of identifying separate censuses

in the article Basket Range, South Australia

is something that can be preserved/sustained, or is it due to be 'exterminated' in the new order of things, some articles have very idiosyncratic usage/designation of the data of the census, but is there the slightest possibility that earlier census data can exist somewhere without interfering with updates ...? Maybe something to ignore, or attend to? Maybe I havent read the right bit of documentation at this point JarrahTree 02:03, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: It seems like a good idea to show previous population figures somewhere, but it doesn't seem common to add them to the infobox. So I guess this is a question of consistency — should a single article be different from the others in this way? I feel like it shouldn't, and that we should have another way of showing historical population data (e.g. through an automatically-generated table within the body of the article, which could contain more than just the total population figures). But if it is a requirement to show the old data (or perhaps just the one previous) in the infobox, then could you add a note to the todo list in Module:PopulationFromWikidata/doc, so it doesn't get forgotten in the next round of improvements? — Sam Wilson 02:23, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks - very clear and I agree, exceptions like the basket hill are not a good idea, more food for thought about the very irregular and highly variable presentation in the articles about components of previous census... JarrahTree 02:29, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I've added a note here. I definitely want to have a go at building a table of population values to put in articles. Then see if anyone thinks it's a good idea... MaiaCWilliams (talk) 02:52, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Depopulating Broome

After this edit, Cable Beach does not show a population in the infobox, but it did before. No doubt it will be more obvious to you than me why this is so. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:13, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mitch Ames: Yep, I'm currently tracking that one down. Will either revert or fix it soon! :-) — Sam Wilson 08:23, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mitch Ames: Okay, sorted. I've left a message about it. Sam Wilson 08:35, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Eucla National Park on OSM

Hi Sam, I'm currently adding OSM maps to the WA national park, which mainly consists of adding wikidata links to the Relations on OSM at the moment. Now, I have come across a question where your OSM expertise might be able to provide and answer. Unlike all other WA national parks I have come across so far, which are Relations on OSM, Eucla National Park is a Way instead of a Relation. This may pose a problem, I guess. Do you know, can a Way be changed to a Relation on OSM or would I have to create a new entry there in the form of a Relation to create my desired link? Calistemon (talk) 06:10, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

@Calistemon: For things like that I normally create a new relation for it. It'll only have one member, but that's okay as it serves a structural need. I can do it if you like? Sam Wilson 06:13, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

If you have time, that would be awesome! Calistemon (talk) 06:29, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

@Calistemon: No prob! Done. Sam Wilson 06:41, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Fantastic! Thank you. Calistemon (talk) 08:05, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Tables of suburbs

Hi Sam, I'm once more coming to you for advice. I have been experimenting with trying to improve the lists of suburbs in WA LGA articles, see City of Rockingham#Suburbs as an example. Now, in order to keep the information up to date in one place I was hoping to use Wikidata as a source for the population and size figures, which could work by using Template:Wikidata as done in User:Calistemon/sandbox. Not essential but potentially beneficial would be to transfer the reference information in a neat format across as well, like it does it the suburb infoboxes. That however I could not get achieved. Do you have any idea how that could be done? Calistemon (talk) 11:45, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

May have just figured it out for myself. It has to do with the rank of the item on Wikidata. It was displaying the 2016 value, not the 2021 one. Calistemon (talk) 11:50, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

@Calistemon: Sorry for my slow reply. Be careful about using the {{wikidata|property|references|normal+|Q4850442|P1082}} system to retrieve the data, because it doesn't take into account the applies to part, aspect, or form (P518), point in time (P585), and determination method or standard (P459) qualifiers, which are what should be used to determine the most appropriate population value displayed. There's some more detail at Module:PopulationFromWikidata. You could use the same system as the infobox, if you don't mind having the parenthetic info after the population figure — I think that might actually be useful, because it shows what exactly the population figure applies to. For metropolitan suburbs that's normally apparent, but for those in the bush it's often less visible and might be worth explaining. Sam Wilson 03:57, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your advice, Sam, your suggestions sound good, I will try to implement in a table later. Calistemon (talk) 08:14, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I have applied your template to the list in the Shire of Wyalkatchem article. What do you think? Calistemon (talk) 13:23, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

@Calistemon: Looks good! I think perhaps the function could be wrapped in a template, e.g. {{PopulationFromWikidata}}, just to make it a bit simpler. Sam Wilson 01:22, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi Sam, one more question. Is it possible to change the "square kilometre" in the size section of the tables to who the infobox displays it like, for example, Darling Downs, Western Australia: 9.8 km2 (3.8 sq mi)? Calistemon (talk) 08:45, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

I think I found a solution, looks like {{convert|{{wikidata|property|raw|Q5004080|P2046}}|km2|sqmi|abbr=unit}} might work. I was on the wrong track, thinking that Template:Infobox Australian place draws the area value from Wikidata, but it doesn't, that has to be entered manually. Would be neat if it did! Calistemon (talk) 04:30, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

@Calistemon: It's definitely something we've talked about, because there's also the population density value to do. The trick is of course that there's a few variations on what the actual geography is. Basically, the same algorithm that chooses the population (based on applies to part, aspect, or form (P518), point in time (P585), and determination method or standard (P459)) should be used to choose the area and density, so ensure that everything is consistent. The ABS boundaries can change. Sam Wilson 05:47, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

I have tried to find a reliable source for the suburb sizes but even Template:Infobox Australian place only recommends the Australian Bureau of Statistics and to get to the information there is rather clumsy, you have to open an Excel spreadsheet for each suburb! As it is, there also seems to be no way to make a connection with the LGA and a suburb/town/locality either, unless they are listed on the LGA website, which is very hit and miss. Where, for example, does it state that Darling Downs, Western Australia is really a suburb of the Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale and what exactly its boundaries are? One reliable source for all this information would be fantastic! Landgate maybe? Calistemon (talk) 06:53, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

A good source for suburb/locality sizes in WA is https://catalogue.data.wa.gov.au/dataset/localities. Click on "Preview in NationalMap" and then you can click on any suburb and find its land area in square metres. Steelkamp (talk) 07:26, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

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Infobox Australian place

Regarding this edit to Hamersley, Western Australia, how would one use the same footnote that's already used in the body? At the moment, there are two footnotes for the 2021 census on the page. Steelkamp (talk) 08:48, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@Steelkamp: Yeah, it's a known issue I'm afraid! The current best solution I think is to use the exact same {{cite web}} call that the infobox does, because exact duplicate refs are merged (but they have to be exactly the same). The args used are url, title, date, work, author, and accessdate. The better fix will be to add a shortcut template that will do exactly this (e.g. {{PopulationFromWikidata}}). Sam Wilson 09:03, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

OSM issue with Manypeaks and Frankland River

Hi Sam, if you got some time, could you have a look at the conversation at the Manypeaks discussion on OSM for me? At Changeset: 129953318 a user there has decided to remove the Wikidata entry from the Manypeaks Relation (Relation: Manypeaks (11690393)) and attach it to the Node (Node: Manypeaks (2680325209)) instead. The same has happened at the Frankland River entry (and maybe some others, who knows?) and could, potentially, happen to all WA localities. The problem with this is that we will lose all the maps currently showing on the suburb/town/locality articles if this goes ahead. I don't think they realise the repercussions and I don't think the relise that the Wikidata item for Manypeaks, for example, is for the locality and sub-division of the City of Albany, not just for the tiny little village there! Your opinion on the subject as an experienced editor on both OSM and here would be appreciated. Calistemon (talk) 11:22, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

@Calistemon: If I'm understanding it correctly, the Wikipedia article Manypeaks, Western Australia (Q21896816) is about just the townsite and not the whole locality? And that Wikidata has two items, Manypeaks (Q21896816) the town and Manypeaks (Q116039373) the locality. So the OSM relation and the node can be attached to the correct things? (Although I note that the town node is also part of the relation. That feels slightly weird, but I guess is reasonably common.) But I'm probably confused! Is the issue that this all means that we can't get the geometry of the locality to display on the town article? Perhaps there's a way to fix that. Sam Wilson 04:39, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi Sam, since contacting you the issue has become more complex, so I took it to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia for a borader input. Thanks for commenting there! In regard to the Relation versus Node question, I don't think either should be a node. The locality has a boundary, as does the town. Both can be viewed at maps.slip.wa.gov.au/landgate/locate/ when selecting Townsites and Localities under the Boundaries header. The town's area is the smaller of the two and wholly located within the locality, but I do think it should still be a Relation, not a Node. Calistemon (talk) 11:08, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

@Calistemon: That's a good point. I'll do some more reading, because I think even if a town's boundary is defined, it still is usually given a 'center-ish' node. Whether the Wikidata ID goes on that node or not though I think is variable. I definitely agree that if there's a relation for the town then it should take the Wikidata ID. Oh and of course to make it more complicated, I don't think the town geometry is available under an open license and so can't be put on OSM (I might be wrong about that). Sam Wilson 11:14, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Looking at the Localities entry on Landgate, it does not mention an open license, same as it doesn't for Townsites. I can't see a difference in the licensing of the two. Calistemon (talk) 13:38, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

@Calistemon: The admin boundaries were imported from https://data.gov.au/data/dataset/geoscape-administrative-boundaries which is CC-BY. I assume it's the same data that's available on Landgate though. Sam Wilson 23:20, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Ord Street, Fremantle

Hi Sam, any idea why the OSM map on Ord Street, Fremantle isn't displaying (at least for me)? I can't see anything wrong on here, Wikidata or OSM. Is it just me? Calistemon (talk) 05:56, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

@Calistemon: Hmm, I'm not sure! Is it because the relation is type=street rather than type=route & route=street? Sam Wilson 06:06, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

@Calistemon: I've updated the relation. Let's see if it updates. Sam Wilson 06:10, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Lets see how long it will take to update! Calistemon (talk) 08:44, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Idea about changing a default preference

Hi Sam Not sure where to raise this, but I was wondering whether this idea has been considered, and/or what you think of it...

I am constantly frustrated by having to look at changes that pop up in my watchlist when unknown or IP editors do not supply an edit summary, and having to check the edits, often unnecessarily. I have set my own editing preference to "Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary (or the default undo summary)", but the usual default is unticked. I was wondering whether this default could be changed to always prompt the user for an edit summary, and to have to go to Preferences and tick a box to get rid of the prompt? This might encourage new and anonymous users to use and get familiar with the purpose behind edit summaries. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 01:46, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

@Laterthanyouthink: You'd have to get consensus on the project that you want to enable it on. Technically it's not a hard thing to change, but I'm not sure of why it's never been done so maybe it's controversial. Seems like a useful thing to me, although perhaps not on every project. I think it's been enabled for Check Users (e.g.), but not anons. So yeah, I'd suggest starting a discussion and if you get agreement then opening a Phabricator task. Sam Wilson 02:52, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Okay, thanks Sam. I don't know how these things work, and am not sure what you mean about which project in this case - would you please give me an example? Laterthanyouthink (talk) 07:16, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

@Laterthanyouthink: Sorry, I just meant which Wikimedia project (Wikipedia, Commons, etc.), but I guess you're mainly active on English Wikipedia so it'd be best to start a discussion here on the village pump. Sam Wilson 07:24, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I see, thanks. Will do tomorrow, or whenever I have time and remember! Laterthanyouthink (talk) 10:57, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Hmmm, finally got around to looking for it, and see that it has already been considered and rejected, according to this. No date of the decision, or link to the discussion which led to it, and it's a shame that there isn't a mechanism for re-examining past decisions. Oh well. I guess I'll just have to carry on wasting my time looking at edits unnecessarily and being annoyed by the lack of edit summaries. Thanks for your help anyway. :-) Laterthanyouthink (talk) 00:52, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

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